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- [00:00]
Amy Robach
This is an iHeart podcast. Gatorade Zero the number one proven electrolyte blend made with zero sugar, designed to hydrate better than water so you can lose more sweat and push more limits. Gatorade 0 is it in you?
- [00:22]
TJ Holmes
I'm Glenn Washington, the host of Snap Judgment from kqed. Every week, we don't just tell stories, we drop you inside them. Real people, real voices, real moments that split a life in two. What do you believe? What do you risk? What do you want? Snap Judgment New episodes every Thursday. Wherever you get your podcast.
- [00:50]
Amy Robach
This message is sponsored by Greenlight. With school out, summer is the perfect time to teach our kids real world money skills they'll use forever. Greenlight is a debit card and the number one family finance and safety app used by millions of families, helping kids learn how to save, invest and spend wisely. Parents can send their kids money and track their spending and saving while kids build money, confidence and skills in fun ways. Start your risk free Greenlight trial today@greenlight.com iheart that's greenlight.com iheart It's Wednesday night after a long day and the last thing you want to do is cook dinner from scratch. But you still want a satisfying, tasty meal without the guilt. Enter your freezer sidekick Caulipower. From thin and crispy cauliflower crust pizzas to all natural white meat, chicken tenders and more, cauliflower is gluten free, always satisfies every craving and is ready in minutes. Cauliflower is available in freezer aisles nationwide. Visit eatcolipower.com where to buy to find a store near you this summer, healthy habits could lead to big prizes during Symbiotica's summer giveaway. Start with supplements that support how you feel and how you show up. Symbiotica's liposomal glutathione and vitamin C are a powerful antioxidant duo that support natural detox, glowy skin and lasting energy. It's just what your body needs during those long summer days. Plus, right now you have a chance to win a 2025 Rivian, a luxurious wellness retreat, and a year's supply of products. Head to symbiotica.com summersweepstakestakes to enter today.
- [02:22]
TJ Holmes
Hey there folks. It's July 31st and she just might be the most talked about and the most powerful prisoner in the United States of America. Ghislaine Maxwell. Everybody wants to know what she knows, and she ain't talking officially just yet. Welcome everybody, to this episode of Amy and TJ Presents in Robes. This is Miss Popularity these days, Ghislaine Maxwell.
- [02:51]
Amy Robach
Well, depending on how you want to describe her, yes. She's popular in the fact that she is the woman who can shed all, all the light on this mysterious topic that has plagued so many people for so long, from the victims to the alleged men. It's supposed to implicate just to this entire enterprise of sex trafficking that was clearly going on for years and years and years at the hands of Jeffrey Epstein and his right hand, Ghislaine Maxwell. So she's wildly unpopular and popular all at the same time.
- [03:25]
TJ Holmes
Okay. The Epstein died in his prison cell. Died by suicide in 2019. He was never held accountable for his crimes. He died beforehand. Those crimes, prosecutors say, were not possible without Ghislaine Maxwell. She was convicted of being specifically a co conspirator. She is in jail for the crimes that she participated in, which were the same crimes that. That Jeffrey Epstein participated in. So this is just not some woman who has been scapegoated, Prosecutors would tell you. This is a woman who was fully involved and active and recruiting and grooming and helping to sexually abuse young girls.
- [04:09]
Amy Robach
Absolutely. And if you talk to any of their victims, and I did speak to Virginia Roberts, who now goes by Virginia Roberts Giuffre, trying to remember how to say her last name correctly, but that was the first time I ever even heard the name Ghislaine Maxwell. And she was very, very quick to point out that Ghislaine was just as bad as Jeffrey Epstein because she was the one who went out and found these young women. She was the one who had direct contact with them, told them, hey, just want to have you do a massage for somebody. And then escalated and escalated and escalated, but made them feel safe because it was a woman talking to them and bringing them in and bringing them in under her arms, so to speak, being like a mot. Maternal figure to these young women. All the while, she knew exactly what was going to happen to them and exactly what was going to be taking place.
- [04:59]
TJ Holmes
She was the recruiter. This is classic grooming. Giving them gifts, making them feel good. And it was classic, classic grooming. Now she's appealing her and she can appeal it all day long, but she right now is a convicted conspirator. She is convicted of sex trafficking. She is convicted of these things. She's not alleged to have done this stuff. She has been convicted. Now, her name, like you just say robes. You heard her name for the first time during an interview. A lot of people are hearing the name and hearing It a lot now. And there's a reason we are where we are and robes. We have to go back last month, what started this whole mess really is the DOJ coming out and telling the world no more Epstein files will be released. This matter is essentially closed. There is no Epstein list. And yes, he killed himself in jail. This is the end of the story. And hell no, there was a revolt almost among some of Trump's own. Not just some, a bunch of Trump's.
- [05:53]
Amy Robach
Own followers, the MAGA base. The MAGA base was outraged because this has been a big cornerstone. I mean, transparency, conspiracy theories. So Trump even campaigned on it, saying, I am going to shed light and give all the information out. Not just in the Epstein files, but he talked about the mlk, JFK assassination. All of these folks who believe something nefarious was going on within the government to conspire to hide what really happened. And so, yes, this is the most recent of those conspiracies. But certainly everyone was waiting for that smoking gun or for that piece of paper with names on it. And I have found it unbelievably insane to think that all this time, it's been, what, six years now, pretty much almost to the day that Jeffrey Epstein died by suicide in his jail cell. That it? You're telling me that no Department of Justice member, no one had a direct interview with Ghislaine Maxwell? No one was able to actually ask her what she knows, what happened? I understand the whole idea of her not wanting to.
- [06:58]
TJ Holmes
Yes.
- [06:58]
Amy Robach
Not wanting to incriminate herself. Incriminate herself. So she probably took the Fifth. But why? That wouldn't have ever been of interest for prosecutors to find out what she knows before even going forward with her case and going forward with her convictions?
- [07:14]
TJ Holmes
Well, maybe they didn't think they needed her because they were still in the process of. I mean, Epstein was still alive at the time. Maybe they didn't know how much they needed her testimony at the time, how important she was. But after he died, they certainly needed a conviction of some kind. People were pissed when he died, and many still will never believe that he killed himself in prison, ever. So 2021 comes along and she ends up being on trial and getting convicted, and she is the one making an argument that she's being scapegoated. So I was just saying how we got here and while we're here, yes, one that happened with doj, but then the story about the birthday book came out. Ramp this up even more. That Trump sent in a birthday letter to Jeffrey Epstein in a Leather bound birthday celebration book for his 50th birthday. 50th birthday. That robes they say Ghislaine Maxwell put together. So that big story comes up. Trump sues the Wall Street Journal for this. So this became a bigger thing and gave us something else to talk about with Ghislaine Maxwell.
- [08:14]
Amy Robach
Yes. And then on top of that, Pam Bondi, it appears, let Trump know that his name was in the files. Not that he was incriminated in any way in participating in any illegal act, want to make that very, very clear, but that his name does appear in the Jeffrey Epstein file. So you put all that together and folks are. And his own base was turning against him and saying this is, this is. Transparency is needed right now. We need more files, we need more information. And it looked as though to a lot of folks that Trump was covering it up because he didn't want his name to get out.
- [08:49]
TJ Holmes
So you have that issue. And then just this week, she officially appealed her conviction to the Supreme Court. That put her name in the headlines as well. So all of these things started to collect, collect, collect to where everybody is talking about Ghislaine Maxwell. She did her interview with the Department of Justice. The Deputy Attorney General, Todd Blanch spent two days with her last Thursday and Friday.
- [09:12]
Amy Robach
Was it nine hours? Nine hours and 100 names, questions and answers. And of course, we didn't hear anything directly from the Department of Justice, nothing from Blanche himself. He did say he would talk about what was said, what he learned at a later date. But we immediately pretty much heard from Ghislaine Maxwell's attorney, who, yes, said that she gave or at least answered questions about 100 names and gave details and she didn't hold anything back.
- [09:42]
TJ Holmes
Said claim she answered every single question, never said, nope, I'm not going to talk about this person or that person, answered every question. Limited immunity they say they gave her. I'm not exactly how much she was covered on in that, but she got limited immunity at least in talking to the Department of Justice last week. So what's the next move? And remind, I don't know if you knew a lot of this stuff. I didn't really know her background. I didn't know who Ghislaine Maxwell was. She's 63 years old now, but I didn't realize she grew up privileged. Like really? Yes, privileged with a billionaire dad in the UK and people keep wanting to talk about she grew up in a 51 room mansion in the UK. I'm like, holy hell. She grew up very privileged and Went to Oxford. She. She was at the height of society over there in the uk.
- [10:27]
Amy Robach
Yeah, she was somebody who was connected and so was Jeffrey Epstein. So the two of them were a powerful. And they were a couple for a little while. They dated and then dated briefly and then became friends and then business partners, so to speak. And wherever Jeffrey Epstein was, you would find Ghislaine Maxwell, because, yes, she was highly connected. And you hear about all the reports and the ties to the Royal Family. It all makes sense. She had those ties. As you pointed out, her dad was a billionaire. He did die a mysterious death.
- [10:57]
TJ Holmes
They still, they claim, well, he fell off of yacht and they don't know if it was a suicide or an accident. But she ended up staying in the US in part because the family name had essentially been run through the mud over there because of her dad. It turns out he defrauded a pension fund of $800 million. His. His wealth was essentially just all smoke and mirrors. After his death, they found that out. So she had come over here kind of. I didn't realize her dad owned the Daily News at one point. The New York Daily News.
- [11:28]
Amy Robach
That's wild.
- [11:29]
TJ Holmes
Like he was a big time dude in publishing. But she comes here kind of as an emissary to his company. They say, yeah, stick around over there. And what does she do? She plays the game. She knows how to play. And she finds Jeffrey Epstein and she starts introducing him to people she knows in these circles and it just goes and go. It's just amazing to hear how she left that life there and built a whole new life of wealth and society and running in those circles here. And her running buddy was Jeffrey Epstein.
- [11:58]
Amy Robach
Yeah, wealth and society and crime. The apple didn't fall far from the tree. Crime and power. And that is certainly what she exerted and was essential to the crimes that Epstein committed. He couldn't have committed them without her.
- [12:14]
TJ Holmes
That's their prosecutor. Could not happen, period.
- [12:16]
Amy Robach
And that is from everything that the victims have testified to and said. She was as much as a factor in what happened to them as Jeffrey Epstein himself was.
- [12:26]
TJ Holmes
Now, how much are we going to eventually hear from her? We don't know. She has been subpoenaed by a House oversight committee. And she initially rose right through her attorney, said she was going to take the 5th. You can call her all day long, she'll show up for a subpoena, but she's going to plead the Fifth. But then she gave it a thought. I don't know if it was the very next day, but it was soon after they say, well, she'll talk. And she has conditioned.
- [12:48]
Amy Robach
There's no question that Ghislaine Maxwell wants to get out of prison sooner rather than later. And she knows she's holding a, for lack of a better term, trump card. She knows that she is pretty much the only one with verifiable information. She knows what happened and she knows who all was involved. And her lawyer was very quick to say, hey, if she gets clemency, basically, if President Trump wants to pardon her, she'll tell you if everything. She won't hold anything back. And she will clear up misconceptions and miscommunications that have been disseminated to the public. You hear that? And every person who has a conspiracy theory in their mind or who knows or who believes that not all the information has been given out. And certainly there are people who would likely be perhaps implicated, are right now free. But how concerned are they right now if Ghislaine Maxwell decides to sing and she claims she's only going to do it if basically she can get some sort of a deal. Either she gets immunity so that it doesn't affect her appeal to the Supreme Court, or she gets some sort of attaboy. Whether it's a reduced sentence, whether it's a commuted sentence, whether it's just less time behind bars, or maybe in a different setting, she wants something. She knows she has some power and she wants something in return.
- [14:12]
TJ Holmes
That's her only card to play. So you're damn right she's gonna hold onto it. But she says she's willing to testify in public.
- [14:20]
Amy Robach
Can you imagine that?
- [14:21]
TJ Holmes
No.
- [14:22]
Amy Robach
And look, you know, her brother has come out in defense of her and has said that she's a scapegoat as well. He feels like she's been unfairly targeted and punished for the crimes of someone else. And he's also said very publicly that he is concerned about her safety. Look, a lot of folks point to the fact that you have Jeffrey Epstein, who died by suicide, according to the Department of Justice, and plenty of other folks. But there are, like you pointed out, a lot of folks will never believe that happened. Then you have Virginia Roberts Giuffre, who also just recently sadly and tragically died by suicide as well. And so there's just a lot of concern about folks safety involved in this story. A lot of victims are afraid to speak out. I know there are a lot of these lawyers who represented these victims who. Who are concerned about speaking out. There is real fear about safety. That's. And that's scary in and of itself.
- [15:15]
TJ Holmes
Because there are just There you just We've reeled off two people connected to this story who knew information, who were victims of all of this. Die by suicide. Okay? People do die by suicide. It happens. In a case like this, people that closely involved in this very, very inner working of this whole scandal end up dead. Yet other people are going to be nervous about it. I'm not making a suggestion that anything happen to them, but people will raise their eyebrows when something like this happened. You mentioned Virginia Duffrey. Yeah. The talk now about Ghislaine Maxwell possibly getting a pardon. You want to hear what Virginia Duffrey's family thinks about that idea?
- [16:04]
Amy Robach
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- [17:54]
TJ Holmes
You think you know Snap judgment? Yes, it's on npr. It's a podcast. It's storytelling. But snap has gone deeper, stranger, wilder. We've taken you places that the New York Times, the Rolling Stones, the Ambies, the Webbies The Gracies all stood up for welcome to the Podcast hall of Fame.
- [18:09]
Amy Robach
Glenn Washington.
- [18:11]
TJ Holmes
Award winning stories, original beats, soundscapes that drop you into the heart of the story. Find snap judgment from KQED every Thursday. Wherever you get your podcast.
- [18:23]
Amy Robach
Support for today's show comes from Sonos. Watching games with a Sonos home theater setup makes everything feel more immersive. The Arc Ultra soundbar delivers incredible surround sound that puts you right in the middle of the action, bringing that stadium experience right into my home. And now I've been trying out the Sonos Ace headphones and and like all Sonos products, they perform as good as they look. Sleek design, crystal clear sound and a super comfortable fit. Check out the full lineup@sonos.com welcome back to this edition of Amy and TJ Presents. And we are talking about the woman everyone's talking about, Ghislaine Maxwell, and her bid at least to have some sort of. She wants to either have her sentence commuted, she would like to have her sentence reduced. She would like to be pardoned in exchange for the information she has on Jeffrey Epstein. And she claims she can put all these conspiracy theorists to rest. She claims she can make sure that any misinformation or miscommunication is rectified because she knows information that truly no one else would or could.
- [19:32]
TJ Holmes
What do we make of that? The public? I think many. Obviously, there's an increased interest. Can we trust her? Can you trust what she says? I don't know. A lot of people say, hey, this is a criminal and a liar. What's the point? Why are you going to make a deal? The House Oversight Committee, they already said no. We're not going to give her immunity. No, absolutely not going to do so. They're going to have a change of heart. I don't know. But to that point, she gets up there, raises her hand, I swear to tell the truth. Is she going to.
- [19:59]
Amy Robach
She's already perjured herself several times. That's what prosecutors will tell you. However, it's undeniable that she does have the information. Whether she tells the truth or not. Oh, yeah, who knows? But it is undeniable. She knows.
- [20:12]
TJ Holmes
I can't imagine there being an ounce of information, an ounce of information that Jeffrey Epstein had that she doesn't currently have.
- [20:21]
Amy Robach
Agreed.
- [20:22]
TJ Holmes
She arranged it all agreed.
- [20:24]
Amy Robach
Like she did it all agreed. And so it's interesting because Trump has been trying to deflect and a lot of folks will say all these things you've been seeing on social media are all an attempt to distract and Deflect. But he did make a statement about Virginia Giuffre. And he mentioned this because he was trying to explain why his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein ended. And he's given different accounts, but this latest one he did say was that Jeffrey Epstein was going into his spa, Mar a Lago, going into his resort and plucking young women and stuff, stealing them from him. And he mentioned Virginia specifically. And it's. That is very true. Virginia absolutely talked about being a worker at the spa. And that. That is when Ghislaine Maxwell came up to her and propositioned her to give some massages and evolved how old? She was 16 years old, TJ 16 years old. And she talked about this painfully, that she really did go into it. She needed money. She had come from a broken home. They were offering her, I think, 300 bucks to give some guy a massage. But it escalated from there. And then she talked. I mean, she really, really, really spoke out about Ghislaine. And so it's no surprise then, when you hear Trump mention Virginia's name. Virginia's family then spoke out and they released this statement, and it is powerful, and we'd love to read it for you in its entirety.
- [21:45]
TJ Holmes
Well, in terms of how he mentioned Virginia on the. It was on Air Force One. He was asked about it, and the families respond to that when they say it was shocking to hear President Trump invoke our sister and say that he was aware that Virginia had been stolen from Mar A Lago. It makes us ask if he was aware of Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell's criminal actions, especially given his statement two years later that his good friend Jeffrey likes women on the younger side. No doubt about it. We in the public are asking for answers. Survivors deserve this. The. It was an odd choice. I guess you could try to give him the benefit of the doubt. But to say he stole. He stole this girl as if she were property. It just sounds.
- [22:36]
Amy Robach
It not only sounds bad on that part, but also the fact that it sounds as if he knew what Epstein was doing.
- [22:44]
TJ Holmes
Poaching them.
- [22:44]
Amy Robach
For what purpose exactly? Them and doing what and doing what with them?
- [22:48]
TJ Holmes
Work at his resort? No.
- [22:49]
Amy Robach
So that's also appalling. But the family unequivocally says that they do not want a pardon for Ghislaine Maxwell. They say the government and the president should never consider giving Ghislaine Maxwell any leniency. Ghislaine Maxwell is a monster who deserves to rot in prison for the rest of her life for the extraordinary violence and abuse she put not just our sister Virginia through, but many other survivors who may number in the thousands. And I think that is a powerful and understandable statement. Also, just after her death, her family released something she wrote just before her death by suicide. And this just speaks to where Virginia's mind was. Mothers, fathers, sisters and brothers need to show the battle lines are drawn and stand together to fight for the future of victims. Is protesting the answer? I don't know, but we've got to start somewhere. What happened to her and what she went through never left her. She lived with it every single day. And it's so tragic that her life.
- [23:50]
TJ Holmes
Ended so soon and she is not quite yet resting in peace. Because this story continues, folks, we will continue to stay on top of it. Watch the updates for the updates here on Amy and TJ Presents. It appears there will be updates damn near every day, but we will update you as often as we can, specifically in this feed. Remember, you can keep up with us on the morning run for the daily headlines on our regular Amy and TJ podcast. But this story, Robes is not going away and to some degree might just be getting started, at least this next phase.
- [24:29]
Amy Robach
Yes, I think everyone wants transparency. Everyone wants information. Knowledge is power and we certainly hope we get it. But not at the expense of the victims who certainly want Ghislaine Maxwell to pay the price for her criminal actions. And with that, we want to thank you for listening to us. I'm Amy Robach alongside TJ Holmes. Please have a wonderful day, everybody. Gatorade Zero, the number one proven electrolyte blend made with zero sugar, designed to hydrate better than water so you can lose more sweat and push more limits. Gatorade 0 is it in you?
- [25:09]
TJ Holmes
I'm Glen Washington, the host of KQED's Snap Judgment podcast. And at Snap, we don't just tell stories, we live them. Every week a different journey. Like on a plane with Rihanna. A racetrack in Tijuana. A year inside an Oakland homeless encampment. Real people, real voices with original music and cinematic sound. Snap Judgment from kqed. New episodes every Thursday. Wherever you get your podcasts, this message.
- [25:39]
Amy Robach
Is sponsored by Greenlight. With school out, summer is the perfect time to teach our kids real world money skills they'll use forever. Greenlight is a debit card and the number one family finance and safety app used by millions of families, helping kids learn how to save, invest and spend wisely. Parents can send their kids money and track their spending and saving while kids build money, confidence and skills in fun ways. Start your risk free Greenlight trial today@greenlight.com iheart that's greenlight.com iheart It's Wednesday night after a long day, and the last thing you want to do is cook dinner from scratch. But you still want a satisfying, tasty meal without the guilt. Enter your freezer's sidekick, Cauliflower. From thin and crispy cauliflower crust pizzas to all natural white meat, chicken tenders and more, cauliflower is gluten free, always satisfies every craving and is ready in minutes. Caulifow is available in freezer aisles nationwide. Visit eatcolipower.com where to buy to find a store near you I already love.
- [26:39]
TJ Holmes
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- [27:09]
Amy Robach
This is an iHeart podcast.