BONUS EPISODE: The History of Queer-Coded Villains with Yvette Gentile and Rasha Pecoraro

Summary

BONUS EPISODE: The History of Queer-Coded Villains with Yvette Gentile and Rasha Pecoraro

Podcast: And That's Why We Drink
Hosts: Christine Schiefer, Em Schulz
Guests: Yvette Gentile & Rasha Pecoraro (from So Supernatural Podcast)
Release Date: October 31, 2025

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Overview

This special Halloween bonus episode brings together Christine, Em, and guests Yvette and Rasha from So Supernatural for a vibrant, funny, and thoughtful discussion about the history and nuances of queer-coded villains, especially in animation and classic film. The group delves into personal stories, favorite villains, and the socio-historical origins of queer coding in media, focusing on the infamous Hays Code. The tone is warm, irreverent, and energetic, blending personal anecdotes with sharp media commentary.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Meet the Guests & Reasons Why We Drink

[02:49 – 16:34]

• Quick introductions, Halloween traditions, and a spirited “why we drink” segment covering:
  • Grief over the death of R&B singer D’Angelo.
    – “He was such a big part of my 20s and 30s.” – Yvette [05:35]
  • Parenting challenges and seeing their own traits in their children.
  • Hilarious costume mishaps, including Em’s accidental Frankenstein-to-condom costume debacle.
    – “I literally ordered Frankenstein. It showed up... It’s a condom wrapper costume.” – Christine [11:49]
  • Personal fallible moments and lots of sibling dynamics, teasing, and banter.

Notable Quote

“Do you guys… I feel like the two of you should somehow get cast in, like, the sleep podcast. Just, I feel like I’m walking through my mouth.” – Em [04:14]

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2. Opening the Floor: Who’s Your Favorite Queer-Coded Villain?

[16:49 – 29:11]

• The hosts and guests each name favorite “queer villains,” both in jest and seriously:
  • Christine jokingly outs her obsession with The Grinch as a queer villain:
    – “He’s got to be something, right?... The gayest man I’ve ever seen in my life.” – Em [16:55]
  • Rasha: Disney’s Ursula (“the epitome of queer villains”) and Tamatoa from Moana.
  • Yvette: Cruella De Vil and Maleficent for their “fabulous, flamboyant” characteristics.
  • Em: Scar and Jafar as obvious queer-coded characters (“I clocked it at 4. I was like, what is that about?” [28:05])
  • Discussion of Yzma from The Emperor’s New Groove and other Disney characters.
• The group reflects on how “otherness,” camp, and flamboyance inform villain design.

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3. Deep Dive: The Hays Code and How Hollywood Banned Queerness

[29:30 – 44:52]

History & Purpose

• Em provides a comprehensive overview of the Hays Code (1934–1967):
  • The Code was a set of moral guidelines pushed by conservative and Catholic groups to censor “indecency” in film, explicitly banning homosexuality, interracial relationships, sexual innuendo, childbirth, and more. – “The Hays Code basically ended up just becoming a banned list of topics that challenged conservative Christian norms.” – Em [37:58]
  • Created the Legion of Decency, which pressured Hollywood with massive boycotts.
  • Catholics constituted a powerful block, making the code influential for decades.
• The Code effectively forced media creators to find subtle and creative “workarounds” for representing queer characters and relationships.
  • “Writers would find ways to work around this code. A lot of it was implied stuff: body language, voice tone, costuming, innuendo.” – Christine [61:57]

Notable Quotes

“It was a missed opportunity to call it the Gays Code. Whatever.” – Em [30:27]

“So, indecent dancing, drug use, nudity, profanity, and ridiculing religion or law. Which feels... I mean, talk about censorship.” – Em [38:08]

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4. The Mechanics of Queer Coding in Media

[44:52 – 66:04]

• Christine explains how Hollywood responded with subtext, signaling queerness in villains:
  • Kissing limited to a few seconds; sex nearly always implied, never shown; crime couldn’t show technique; homosexuality never explicit but signaled through mannerism/costume/voice.
  • Directors like Hitchcock used decoy “scandalous” scenes to distract censors from queer subtexts.
• Examples of queer-coded characters across eras, both intentional and unintentional.
  • Marlena Dietrich’s tuxedo and on-screen kisses with women.
  • Xena: Warrior Princess’ not-quite-explicit sapphic subtext.
• Personal anecdotes about picking up on subtext as kids and how “audience absorption” led certain characters to be reclaimed as queer icons.

Favorite Villain Costumes & Categories

• Christine’s Three Types:
  1. Intentionally queer-coded by queer creators (e.g., Ursula based on Divine, [66:32]).
  2. Intentionally queer-coded as a moral threat by studios (see Captain Hook, Prince John).
  3. Audience/culturally absorbed coding (see Scar, Jafar, Queen of Hearts). – “So some have been done so insidiously with bad intent, and some were done to celebrate queerness... very, very few back in the day.” – Christine [73:07]

BuzzFeed’s “Gayness Scale” for Villains

• Fun pop quiz: Least queer villain? Lady Tremaine (Cinderella’s stepmother) [77:22]
• “On their list…she’s uptight, boring, and obsessed with the royal family. She’s basically the late 1600s version of your Aunt Meredith.” – Christine [78:10]

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5. Halloween Movie Break: How Film Has Changed

[44:52 – 55:47]

• The crew shares favorite Halloween films and how all would “violate” the Hays Code:
  • Hocus Pocus, Halloween Town, Nightmare on Elm Street, Practical Magic, The Grinch.
  • Personal stories about favorite actors and meeting Hocus Pocus’ “Billy.”
  • Reflection on personal and generational shifts: today’s kids can speak openly about queer families (“My heart felt nice and full after that.” – Christine, [81:10]).

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6. The Legacy, the Impact, and Changing Representations

[93:11 – 98:48]

• Rasha shouts out the documentary “Disclosure” (Laverne Cox) as a must-watch on trans and queer representation in media.
  • “Queer people in media have always been placed as the villain…from the beginning.” – Rasha [93:43]
• The gang examines how villain tropes evolved: Queer folks as objects of derision, outright monsters, or punchlines (see Ace Ventura, Soapdish).
• Self-reflection about complicity, own past laughter at harmful tropes, and the importance of evolving, listening, and learning.
  • “You started in maybe a worse place than you are today. It’s okay – you just gotta keep learning.” – Em [98:29]

Memorable Quote

“It’s like, whoa, whoa, people. The Hays Code basically upholds the values of Christian patriarchal white supremacy.” – Em [45:00]

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Notable Quotes – With Timestamps

• On Coding Villains:
  “I think my favorite is Scar, but the one that even when I was a little kid, I was like, ‘that’s a gay person,’ was Jafar.” – Em [27:30]

• On Reclamations:
  “Queerness wasn’t stated directly. It was signaled indirectly. Not because it was clever…but it was the only way to even present queer traits on screen at all.” – Christine [61:48]

• On Progress:
  “Now every time we watch a Disney movie, I’m gonna be like, see that guy?” – Christine [82:08]

• On Growing Representation:
  “You know, like, three out of the four of us are queer. Yvette’s the biggest, the minority.” – Rasha [95:19]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Segment | Start | Key Points | |---------------------------------------------|----------|--------------------------------------------------------------| | Welcome & Introductions | 02:49 | Meet the guests, icebreakers, Halloween stories | | Reasons Why We Drink | 04:44 | Personal stories, family anecdotes, humor | | Name Your Queer Villain | 16:49 | Disney villains, reclamation, the Grinch revelation | | Why Are Villains Queer-Coded? (History) | 29:30 | Deep dive into Hays Code, censors, impact on media | | The Mechanics of Queer Coding | 44:52 | Kissing rules, crime depiction, queer subtext and innuendo | | Costumes & Categories of Villainy | 66:04 | Types of queer-coded villains; BuzzFeed villain gay-o-meter | | Halloween Movie Round | 44:52+ | Favorite spooky movies and how they all violate old codes | | Sibling & Family Stories | 81:10+ | Openness, parenting, generational shifts | | The Legacy & Today’s Media | 93:11 | Representation, “Disclosure,” self-reflection |

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Tone & Language

• Warm, irreverent, funny, and candid
• Honest recognition of past cultural missteps, and an encouraging invitation to self-reflection and continued learning
• Frequent banter, self-mockery, and supportive language among hosts and guests

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Summary Takeaways

• Queer-coded villains have a complex history rooted in Hollywood censorship via the Hays Code, leading to both insidious stereotyping and subversive reclamation.
• The camp, flamboyance, and “otherness” of classic villains became early forms of queer visibility – sometimes harmful, sometimes empowering.
• Today, audiences reinterpret, reclaim, and celebrate these characters, even as the legacy of coding and exclusion lingers.
• The hosts and guests encourage kindness, learning, and open dialogue, celebrating the progress made and recognizing work still needed.

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Where to Find More

• Visit So Supernatural Podcast: SoSupernaturalPodcast.com & @sosupernaturalpod
• Find Christine & Em: "And That's Why We Drink" on all podcast platforms

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This summary omits commercials, sponsorships, and non-content banter for clarity and flow.

Transcript

[A]

It is currently spooky season and I am seeing all sorts of yard decorations as I drive home at night. And one of the most popular ones has been Pennywise out in the yard. My dog loves it. Just kidding. And if you love it, I gotta tell you, the director of it has a new horrifying story set in 1960s dairy Maine and is a story that explores the origins of Pennywise the Clown and get ready to go back to where it all began. Not only is the new HBO original series IT welcome to Dairy now streaming on HBO Max, but on the IT welcome to Dairy Official podcast, each episode will be discussed after it airs on HBO Max. HBO's it welcome to Derry podcast walks you back down the Streets of Derry 27 years before the Losers Club first formed and pulls you down into the sewers to dig in to the history, the lore and the horror of what makes Dairy Maine's most sinister suburb. And you'll hear from show creators plus cast and crew members as they talk talk about the making of the show. It is gonna be delicious everybody. I'm very, very excited. I actually have a friend who went to the screening tonight and let me know that it is just as incredible as I was anticipating. So please go check it out. I'm gonna be watching it right next to you. Stream new episodes of HBO's It welcome to Dairy Sundays on HBO Max and listen to the IT welcome to Dairy Official podcast wherever you get your podcasts. This podcast is sponsored by Squarespace. We have been using Squarespace since we started the podcast before, like since we.

[B]

Before we launched it. Which is.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. So we've been using it longer than the podcast has been around because we have been. We were building out our website and it was so easy. For two people who've never built a website, it was just kind of a plug and chug situation. They made it so user friendly.

[B]

It's so true. And we've stuck around with them because since then they've only gotten better and more, you know, integrations, more features. For example, let me give you like a little situation here. If you're going to fundraise, which we're not right now, but you know, if we want to go to the Mothman festival and we need to fundraise for that. For example, you can fundraise directly on your website and grow your impact with built in donation tools. You can create a professional on brand website that makes it easy to accept one time or recurring contributions from your lovely fans. No, I'm kidding. With built in email campaigns and marketing tools. That's also, like, a huge selling point. You can connect with your community, community, inspire more people to support your cause, which is a really cool angle.

[A]

Yeah. Any reason you need a website? Squarespace is there for you. Head to squarespace.com drink for a free trial, and when you're ready to launch, use offer code DRINK to save 10 off your first purchase of a website or domain.

[B]

Hello, everyone. Welcome to and that's why We Drink, a podcast usually hosted by two people, M and Christine. We never introduce ourselves, but that's our names. And we actually have guests on today for our surprise Halloween episode. We are so excited. Rasha and Yvette are here from so Supernatural, and we're going to be talking about Queer Villains. And I'm, like, so excited. I'm so amped about this.

[A]

Yeah. Thank you both so much for being here.

[C]

Oh, thank you guys for having us.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We were on their show recently, which was super fun.

[A]

And also. Sorry, I was gonna say Happy Halloween, everybody. Oh, yeah.

[C]

Happy Halloween.

[B]

Aww.

[D]

Happy Halloween.

[B]

Best day of the year.

[A]

Yeah. We decided we were going to talk about Queer Villains today because we wanted to do something spooky for our bonus episode. And we talk about a lot of villains, but we never get to talk about fun villains.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

True.

[B]

This is like a less, like, kind of heavy episode, I would say, than some of the ones that Em and I usually cover. Especially true crime related. But, you know, we were natural and it was all very polished and scripted. So I'm just setting, like, a standard here that it's probably not going to be that, but we're going to try our best.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And see how professional we can sound.

[D]

You are always professional.

[C]

I love you guys.

[A]

Just the way you said.

[B]

Even the voice, it's like, oh, Lord. Wow. We need, like, a. We need, like, a master class. We need to take like, a master class.

[A]

I know. I just. I feel like. Do you guys. I feel like the two of you should somehow get cast in, like, the, like, the sleep podcast. Just see just the o. I feel like I'm walking through my mouth, like, anyway. Yeah, no, so we. Before we do an episode ever, we usually talk about a reason why we drink this week. It can be good or bad. Usually is bad on my end. Just. I like to complain. But do either of you have any. A reason why you drink this week? Not to.

[B]

And it doesn't have to be alcohol. It's actually half M's. M does not drink. So it's. I drink ice cream. Emily. Iced tea or Milkshake or something. I usually have whatever I can find in my fridge. So, yeah, if you guys have a reason why you drink. No pressure, but feel free.

[C]

Well, I'll start. I would have to say that. I mean, I do drink. I'm married to an Italian, so I love, you know, red wine, vino, aperol, spritz, all the things, but it's too early in the morning to drink. Drink, sure. But the reason why I drink this particular week is I was just so sad about losing d'. Angelo. I don't know if you guys know d', Angelo, but he was this unbelievable RB soul singer.

[B]

He was kind of. Yes, I saw that. I read that obituary. Yeah.

[C]

He was a cross between Jimi Hendrix and Marvin Gaye. And I can't stop obsessing over, like, all the tributes that are just pouring out. And it's every generation and it's every color, every creed. It's just. I don't know. He was such a big part of my 20s and 30s, so that is why I'm drinking this particular week.

[A]

How did he pass?

[C]

Oh, my God. He was 51 and he had cancer.

[B]

Yeah. I think it's pancreas. Pancreatic.

[C]

Pancreas.

[B]

Yeah. Which is just like, extra. Yeah, it's just. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's hard. I feel like that happens sometimes when people. And it like kind of hits you out of nowhere because you're not like, necessarily thinking about this person every day. But then you find out that they're, you know, gone, and it's like, oh, shoot. I just realized, like, what an impact they had on me, so.

[C]

Yeah, totally. And in the same breath, like, we lost another person who was 51 who works out with us. So it was like, oh, geez. Freaking double whammy. And so anyhow, it's like, y.

[B]

Take care of yourselves.

[C]

Oh, too young, too young.

[D]

How am I supposed to follow that?

[B]

Tell us something about, like, I don't know, like, my glasses are, like, scratched.

[D]

Right, right.

[A]

Run the gamut. Bring, bring. Yeah, we.

[B]

We go all over this.

[D]

I am dry, so I don't drink. However, I do need some Valium and I definitely.

[B]

Okay, see? Okay. I knew we could connect on something. There you go.

[D]

I mean, you know, I'm a totally open book.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

And I'm just gonna say so if I were to drink, and that's why we drink, it would be this week because I have a 14 year old child who I gave birth to, who my wife and I created in a doctor's office, and we love her. More than life. However, she is too much like me. And that is why I drink truth.

[B]

Well, that's relatable. Yeah, yeah. I, that's like such a double edged sword because it's like I know exactly what you're thinking. Like at my 4 year old already everyone's like, oh God. But I can predict everything she's thinking and doing. And it's like I know it because it's how my brain works, but also like, oh, God, it's annoying.

[D]

It's so annoying. And my wife and I even knew, like in the ultrasound, like, she had my profile and I'm like, oh, shit.

[A]

You're like, it's like an omen. It's like an omen.

[B]

Like, I'm late for you.

[D]

And Auntie Eyvette can, you know, can contribute and say that Leilani is definitely a mini Rasha for, for certain.

[C]

Mom is probably looking down at you going, she's laughing.

[B]

They always are. They're like, we told you. We told you.

[A]

I feel like it's a big. Or at least in my house it was a common curse of like, if you have kids, I hope they're just like you. I feel so.

[B]

It feels like a backhanded compliment, but it's really just like an insult. Like, like a threat.

[A]

Yeah, you're a really good kid or something.

[D]

It was a really good kid.

[B]

Oh, were you?

[D]

Yes.

[B]

Were you?

[D]

Yes, I was very chime in.

[B]

I was too.

[C]

You were a spoiled, spoiled child, I'll say that.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

Yeah. Says the sister who's older than me.

[D]

Until I came along.

[B]

Now this is what we're here for. All right, now let's open it up to the floor.

[A]

Any. Well, I was points. I was gonna say Christine, as a sister with an age gap, do you relate at all? Yes.

[B]

She says a little spoiled. But also I'm like, I feel like I was spoiled in different ways. Like, I'm like, she's spoiled in like a younger child way where like she, she didn't have as many, like, rules and stuff put on her. But also as the eldest, I'm like, you know, I had the perks of like being. I don't know what perks, but I'm sure my brother will tell you what they are. Well, so my brother's two years younger than me and we're, we're like best friends. And then not only in recent years, but my sister is 14 years younger than me and so she's our half sister. And so growing up like we were teenagers when she was born, and we were like, what the hell? And so I was like, you know, the default babysitter and everything. So there was some time where I was like, man, this girl. But I just love her so much. So. Correct. You know I'm wrong.

[A]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like being the oldest sibling in an age gap is similar to me going to house parties but never drinking where it's like, I can tell you exactly what was going on here and you can't fight me on it.

[B]

I was changing your diapers at the party. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

It's like, you'll never know. I mean, I'm pretty sure I'm right, but you'll never know. So.

[C]

Yeah, for sure.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Agreed.

[A]

100.

[C]

Yep.

[B]

Yeah. I think there are perks to both. I think my brother's in the middle and I think he probably gets the worst of it because he's in the middle. He doesn't really.

[D]

He's kind of stuck. Only Yvette and me and like.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[D]

I mean, obviously, you can see how we look. We're definitely not full blooded siblings, but we never say half.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

And it drives us nuts. Like when Press says that.

[B]

Oh, that's weird.

[A]

Really?

[D]

And we're like, no, we. I'm like, we came from the same womb. Just in.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And like, why does it. Yeah. I say half sibling because people are always like, why did your mom have a baby? So. And I'm like, right. Because I'm very. I talk a lot about my parents divorce. So people are like, where did she come from? But yeah. I don't think I've ever considered her like, half sibling. You know what I mean? Like, it doesn't feel that way. But yeah.

[D]

Like, you have to explain. Right.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[C]

Yeah. And I think because we. We're always having to explain because of the color difference. So.

[B]

Right.

[D]

Sure.

[C]

Why are we going to explain? Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

So same enough.

[D]

And still people don't believe we're. We're related.

[B]

Yeah. It's very silly. That's very silly. People need to get a hobby, I think.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Hello. Right in like media literacy and other things. Like.

[D]

Agreed.

[C]

All the things.

[B]

Oh, well.

[A]

Is there a reason why I drink? Great. I'm glad you asked. So, well, I. You missed it yesterday. But I had a whole costume debacle for Halloween where it was out of sight. I. I was supposed to be Frankenstein. I Instagram did me real dirty and they brought me a condom.

[B]

Instagram. Instacart.

[A]

Instacart. I was a condom. The costume came. It was a costume of a condom. So wait, what?

[B]

I literally ordered Frankenstein. It showed up, and Emma was like, why is it so, like, shiny and gold and, like, pulled it out. It's a condom wrapper. An open condom wrapper costume.

[C]

Yep.

[A]

No, because you ever seen. But it was disgusting. I was like. And I wore it on the show, of course. Because at that point, for the.

[B]

Too late now.

[A]

And it was. So anyway, I thought, okay, I'm done with costumes. At least I just, like, wore for the one day. And now I don't have to touch it again magically. Now friends are reaching out and saying, hey, you have a house and we have nothing to do on Halloween. Would you like to host, like, a trick or treating? We'll all pass out candy. And I made the joke yesterday where I was like, I certainly can't do that in a condom costume.

[D]

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

[A]

So now I'm. Now I'm scrambling to come up with a different costume.

[B]

Yeah. You can't rely on Instacart anymore. Like, who knows what the hell is going to happen?

[A]

And Frankenstein is ruined for me. So I'm kind of. I'm kind of in a panic about what I'm going to do.

[B]

It's just so wild. Like, I just couldn't get over it. It's. It's. It's a condom wrapper costume. There's nothing about it that crosses over with Frankenstein. Frankenstein, Frankenstein, monster. Nothing about it. I, like, I cannot wrap my head around it. And the guy apparently handed it right to M with a bold confidence, right in the eyes. No notes, nothing.

[A]

And so I never thought anything of it. He really. He really tricked me. I felt really secure about his decisions, and I walked in and I went. He got it so wrong. So, dang. Did you call.

[B]

That's for sure.

[C]

And tell them that you got the wrong costume?

[A]

It was too late. They, like, closed their, like, their end of the portal by the time I was able to reach out and go, what the hell is going on here? So I just got stuck with it and paid full price. So. And then I was like, well, this is too funny. So I. I'm just gonna keep it and wear it for the show.

[D]

Absolutely.

[B]

Still not when I write that off.

[D]

At the end of the year.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, That's a great point.

[C]

This is true.

[B]

So can you imagine our business manager calls, like, there's this xx. XXL condom.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It literally says XXL for 8 inches or bigger. It's like, what is this?

[A]

Who makes this lubricated stallion.

[B]

Yeah, that's right. It says that too.

[A]

Yeah. Not very. Who chose who made it who and.

[B]

Who bought it and said this will do.

[A]

Oh my goodness. It was a real. So anyway, actually this, it works out very well. I'm going to call it a serendipitous moment that now we're discussing queer villains and I feel like this gives me a chance, first of all, to become a queer villain, because that was my origin story. Second of all, I now have an opportunity maybe in our discussion today to figure out a new costume in time.

[B]

So I love that idea. Wait, that's so good. We can find you a new villain costume. I mean, the condom is villainous enough. I will say. But you're right, it's not child friendly for trick or treating.

[A]

Not at all. Yeah, it's the least family friendly.

[B]

Trick or treaters only. Adult xx. Trick or treating. Yeah.

[A]

And I drink an I. It's from my, my local spot. What do you, what do you drink, Christine? And why?

[B]

Oh, thank you. I drink a spicy mocha because. Well, I already drank it all. But I went to the, my bookstore and was like, I want my bookstore. I went to the bookstore in my neighborhood and was like, I want a spicy mocha because I had therapy today and I was like, I deserve a little treat. Yeah. So I went, why do I. Oh, that's what I'm drinking. Not anymore. I drink it all. And why do I drink? Oh, probably just because I have a four year old and it's. And she's just like Raj said a lot like me and it's really Minnie Christine. An adventure. It's like, I see what's happening here. How do I approach this in the healthiest way? That's also not going to make everybody else crazy or me crazy, but it's very fun. And it's a, it's a. She's very excited for Halloween and she's decided that I have to be. Last year she was Grumpy Toad from the Pete the Cat book series. And she's very niche, right? Like she's age 3. She was like, I'm not going to do like the witch or anything. I'm like Grumpy Toad. And then this year she said, I would like to be Pete the Cat. And I said, okay, we're broadening. And she said, and you're gonna be Grumpy Toad. And I was like, oh, okay, so now I need to go buy a bunch of green weird accessories. But I was telling him, like, I have a weird Affinity for the Grinch that apparently nobody knew until yesterday. And I was like, I already have.

[A]

A lot of like, it's breaking news. But apparently this has been her long time lore. She's known. It's.

[B]

She's not my closeted lord.

[A]

She was like, well, you know, I'm obsessed with the Grinch. And I was like, nobody knows that, actually.

[B]

And I said, well, that's so weird. Father also said he had no idea and was like, yeah, you've literally never said that before ever. But apparently so I'm creating my own Mandela effect, I guess. But we did an episode of about.

[D]

The Mandela effect on so Supernatural with Ashley.

[B]

See? Okay, so we get it.

[D]

We get it.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

It's a real thing. And I'm like, just because you guys didn't know what was going on in my head all the time doesn't mean it wasn't the truth. So now your truth is your truth. Christine, thank you so much. It's so nice to come out of the closet. You know, the Grinch Grinch.

[A]

This is the episode for that.

[C]

This is the one, right?

[B]

Surprise. Queer villains. Let's start with a Grinch.

[A]

Hold on. Is.

[B]

He's got to be something, right?

[A]

The gayest man I've ever seen in my life.

[B]

I absolutely. Wow. Talk about an icon.

[A]

No wonder you were so attached.

[B]

I get it now.

[A]

Maybe you both starting to a secret.

[B]

Holy.

[A]

And he wanted to live. He was. He was outcast by society, living up on that hill. He loved his little Santa jacket, his little drag moment, you know?

[B]

You're making Yvette cry.

[A]

He made drag.

[B]

Oh, my God. He made dragons so red.

[C]

We're like 15 minutes in and I'm crying.

[B]

Am I wrong?

[A]

It feels like he's like, just full of internalized homophobia. He's like, yuck, decorations. You know, forget it, you know, Right? And then he comes to learn to love himself and others, and he's included for loving himself.

[B]

Oh, my God. And then he's like, naked, I guess, because he's always in green. I don't know what that's about.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, man. I am like, wow, that really. This came full circle for me. Thank you. I didn't think I'd like, find so much out about myself today, so thanks.

[A]

I was. I was gonna say, do. Do either of you have. Have queer villains? Well, first of all, everyone, I guess, should raise your hand if you're. If you're queer, if you identify. Oh, Yvette, you wouldn't want to supervisor too.

[D]

She's an amazing.

[B]

Yvette's.

[D]

An amazing.

[C]

But I'm in the alley.

[B]

I'm married to a straight white man, so I'm not that excited.

[A]

That doesn't take away from your idea.

[B]

I know, but I'm on the spectrum there a little bit.

[D]

That does not take away from your idea.

[B]

And it's not even an Italian with a wine pre.

[A]

I feel like I'm losing it. Sounds like in a straight relationship, you still nailed it.

[B]

Yeah, Yvette's, like, already a step ahead anyway.

[A]

Oh, before we begin, does anyone have any favorite queer villains?

[B]

The Grinch who Stole Christmas?

[C]

I mean, I have. I have a. Go ahead.

[A]

You go first.

[C]

Go first. Go first. You go first. Go first.

[D]

Thank you. As the queer one.

[B]

I will go first as the spoiled little sister.

[C]

Thank you. Thank you. So it's so funny, I was thinking.

[D]

About this because I am of a Disney princess girl.

[B]

Interesting.

[D]

You know, but. But really not a princess because, like, I identify most with Mulan and.

[B]

Oh, yeah, that's good.

[D]

Yeah. From so queer. I mean, hello, drag king. I'm married to a retired drag king.

[B]

Wow, your life is amazing. My wife, Damn em.

[D]

Latin drag king.

[C]

She's badass too. Let me just tell you.

[D]

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, my gosh.

[B]

So sexy.

[D]

She needs to bring Emilio back. But that's a whole.

[B]

Yeah. What the hell? Emilio.

[D]

Emilio. Yes.

[B]

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[D]

For me. I honestly think I. My favorite queer villain, of course, the epitome of queer villains is Ursula from the Little Mermaid.

[A]

Of course.

[D]

But I actually really love Tamatoa from Moana the Big Crab.

[B]

Okay, you know what? I feel like I've watched that a lot lately and that didn't even cross my mind. That's a really good one.

[A]

It's still happening. It's still happening.

[B]

Oh, my God, that's such a good one.

[A]

Do you have a Winnipeg?

[C]

Oh, my God. I was thinking about this, like, really, really hard. Really seriously. And I was thinking it's got to be between two. So it's either Cruella, right.

[B]

Or Very good.

[C]

Maleficent. Like between the two Maleficent.

[A]

Oh, of course.

[B]

Interesting. Yes, yes, very interesting.

[C]

Because they're both just so fabulous, right?

[B]

Fabulous, flamboyant. Like that's like the. That is like the run through for a lot of this.

[A]

They would both be perfect drag queens. Like, if someone were to be a drag queen as either of them, they'd kill it.

[B]

Think about Cruella with that coat and like.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And the nails and the back.

[B]

Apparently she was. There is a theory that she was based off of a drag queen, but not the behavior, just the. Just the look.

[C]

Just the look.

[B]

And they made it very personal.

[D]

But not about Cruella.

[B]

I'm gonna actually make sure I get the name right because that's pretty epic.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. I mean, I could totally see that. Like 100.

[A]

I could see for any of them, to be honest.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[D]

I have to wait for it.

[A]

I know. I'm like the. The suspense is building. Chrissy. She's like the frantic typing.

[B]

I swear. I like prepared. I promise.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. Got it. So apparently Cruella De Vil was inspired by Tallulah Bankhead, who I don't about, but had a very husky voice, a very extravagant personality, was like big cigarette smoker, very, like high fashion. And she's a very good person.

[A]

What I was gonna say, you're just. I. I'm so glad that our notes are marrying so well because she was literally someone. I watched a whole YouTube video last night where I got very suckered into what we're gonna talk about down the rabbit hole. She was like one of the main characters, though.

[B]

Okay, so there you go. So apparently that's who Cruella de Vil is like, based off of. But not. But they kept it. Not the personality, because. Because Tallulah Bankhead was a really great person. Would never kill them as far, like, she wouldn't wear them as a code, I promise. And I was like, okay. I mean, I hope not, but. Okay. Thanks for clarifying.

[A]

Is. Would you truly say the Grinch is your. Your queer villain? I. You're allowed. I just don't. In case there's another answer you have.

[B]

You know, I don't know. I. I think. I think so. I feel like. I feel like that's the one now that I've. I think I would have said something else, like maybe. Maybe a. A Captain Hook or a Prince John type, like one of these weird dudes who wore pink. And it was like, I don't know, just like a. A spectacle to watch. But I think. I think I'm gonna go with the Grinch, which is weird. All mine seem to be. Seem to be men, but the Grant. Well, is the Grinch a man? I don't know. He's just some amorphous blob. We don't know what gender creature.

[D]

The Grinches.

[A]

Yeah, that's a. That's a. A non binary.

[B]

It's a whole. Another. Yes. Right. Okay. So I think that at. For the. With. What do you say? The risk. What's the preposition with the risk? At the risk of sounding.

[A]

At the risk.

[B]

Thank you. At the risk of sounding all over the place. I'm gonna stick with the Grinch.

[A]

Yeah, sure.

[B]

Yeah, sure. Final answer.

[D]

I'm gonna add one more. Yeah, I think I need to. Because I realized my queer awakening came when I first saw the Rocky Horror Picture show. And I had the biggest crush on Tim Curry as Frank N. Furter.

[A]

That speaks Vol.

[B]

Very good.

[D]

I mean, I dated men all the way until I was 30. And I always chose my sister. Can attest to this. Very, very, very effeminate men.

[B]

Yes.

[D]

With the exception of, like, one guy. And that was a daddy issue thing.

[B]

Yeah, I get that.

[D]

And then I finally came out at.

[B]

30, but Tim Curry was my Will do it.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you were. You were very young, but our grandmother in Hawaii used to run the. The Rocky Picture. The Rocky Horror Picture Show. In this particular theater, the Waikiki 3 theater. Like, every. Like, I think it was every Sunday at midnight. She was like, The. The host of this family in our family DNA.

[B]

That is so cool. Yeah. My grandmother did nothing like that. Let's just. My grandmother did not participate in anything so progressive and exciting.

[A]

Well, I would say mine was.

[B]

I.

[A]

My personal favorite is Scar, but I think the one that. That even when I was a little kid and I was like, that's a gay person. Was Jafar. I think Jafar.

[D]

Jim.

[B]

Alar. Jafar is one of the best, like, examples of this, I think. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

I think everything he said. I mean, he didn't even really seem interested in Jasmine. He was very flamboyant. His voice was just, like, the most stereotypical voice I'd ever heard. He's very. Just like you did. Just very, like, silky. Just kind of moved a little too cleanly. I don't know. There's something about them, but.

[B]

Yeah, that's a gay. What did you say? That's a gay person.

[A]

I. I clocked it at 4. I was like, what is that about?

[B]

Like, anybody else seeing this?

[A]

I was like, no one's gonna talk about it. Okay. But I would say my favorite is. Is Scar, who is, I would argue, just a cousin of Jafar. They're very similar that they get in my head.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I feel like voices. They also. He also moves. Very slinky.

[B]

Eyeliner.

[A]

Yeah, eyeliner. Anyway, I think those would be my two favorites. And I heard someone say not. Not with anyone here. I was in the YouTube rabbit hole. Someone said their favorite queer person was Yzma from the Emperor's New Groove.

[B]

I have notes on that.

[D]

And that was played by Eartha Kitt.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

It's Eartha Kitt.

[D]

Yes.

[B]

Yep. And I. That, actually, I feel like, is my new answer. Sorry, I forgot to say Yzma is my favorite.

[A]

I do think if I had to be one of the Qu. Queer Disney villains, it would. I would want to be. She's very like. Yeah, I imagine what she. She's what Cruella will age into.

[B]

Right, Right. Yes.

[C]

Right.

[B]

And she's evolving. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[C]

She was fabulous from day one, for sure.

[A]

And she knew it.

[C]

Thank you.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

Yes. As we all do.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Before we get to talk about Christine, I will argue. I'm gonna just defend Christine here. That your part is definitely going to be the. The more interesting part of. I'm gonna do the history element here.

[B]

But that's not. That's. That's my fault, not yours. I think. Yeah. You. You took on the. The. The more I got so suckered in. Okay. I appreciate it.

[A]

We're Gonna have a good time. But the I, The. The more fun part, we'll be getting to psychoanalyze, I assume, some of the.

[B]

I have on Scar, on Ursula, etc, we'll talk about it.

[A]

When you hear that and then you hear and I have a history portion, you're like, oh, brother, let's into.

[B]

It's actually, no, we love history.

[C]

We love history as well.

[A]

But to. Before we can talk about queer villains, we have to talk about why there are so many queer villains in media, why they're represented that way. And so we're going to talk about the Hayes Code. Do either of you know about the Hayes Code?

[D]

I know a little bit.

[C]

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. From the 1900s. Yes, yes, yes, yes. There's so many things that I didn't know. But anyhow, let me stop.

[A]

No, no, no, please, please chime in.

[B]

We don't know anything. I mean, we do now that we.

[A]

Researched it, but I didn't know anything at all. Exactly. Right. I will say right off the bat, incredibly missed opportunity to call it the Gays Code.

[B]

Whatever. Note number one. Okay, true.

[A]

So the Hays Code were. Was a time in the film industry from 1934 to 1967, where there was a set of guidelines that movies were expected to follow. But before I even get into that, I wanted to ask, do you have any favorite movies from that era from the 30s to 60s?

[B]

You have any favorite.

[A]

You said any favorite movies from that time? Because they would then be. They would have to follow the Haze code, and it'd be interesting to think about how they were made.

[B]

Interesting.

[D]

Wizard of Oz, Eva.

[C]

When was that made? I don't think it was 34 does fall into it.

[D]

You said it started in. Yeah, yeah.

[C]

So that would definitely be at the top of our list.

[D]

Yeah, that was our most favorite. And both of us have always been infatuated with it. But I was always afraid of Elphaba, and now I'm like Wicked.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Exactly. Reclaim.

[D]

Talking about pure villains.

[A]

You know what, Christine? You. I think we. It's. This is not in my notes, but you just nailed it. I feel like that is a reclaiming queer story. Right? And it's incredibly queer now. And Wicked. I'm pretty sure every character is somehow alluding to being queer 100%.

[D]

I actually just watched a video today of Ariana and Cynthia saying that literally every single character in Wicked is a friend of Dorothy.

[B]

Thank you. See, there's a reason there's a phrase like that.

[A]

So that's. Well done, Christine. That's that's actually. That's. Is that something. If I had a joint with me, I think I would sit for, like, 20 minutes, be like, whoa, that's the.

[B]

I'll do that later, and I'll call you and just do it on your behalf. Thank you.

[A]

Okay, so let's get into it, then. So back in the early, early 1900s, 1910s, films focused on all sorts of scandalous themes. There was really no rhyme or reason to it at the. At that point. Point. They didn't hide from showing sexuality or violence or drugs or what would be considered sins of the world. And fun fact, one of the reasons for this is because when film kind of picked up, a lot of people in theater were the people who moved into the film industry, and their storylines were very scandalous. So it just kind of carried into the movie world. But outside of the debauchery in the actual movies, there were real scandals in Hollywood, including multiple murders of film actors. There were directors who were murdered. It was becoming a bit of a problem.

[B]

Oh, my.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And this led to a stereotype that the whole industry was a, quote, veritable breeding ground of sin.

[D]

Because I love what they call queer people now.

[B]

I know. I was like, again, let's reclaim it. That's beautiful.

[A]

Yes. It feels a little too current. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So in 1915, with the whole country starting to get this, the stereotype in their minds of what the industry is, there were talks of the government getting involved or trying to censor some of the movie's messages just to kind of tamper down what people were seeing. And the studios went all the way to the Supreme Court to protect their film's freedom of speech, but they accidentally shot themselves in the foot by doing that. Because the Supreme Court then said, well, since movies are a product, they can't really be protected under free speech, and therefore, they absolutely can be sent. Censored.

[D]

Wow.

[A]

And the Supreme Court also called movies capable of evil, meaning that censorship was now legally justifiable. And when this was announced, each state began creating their own censorship boards for film, which made production super difficult because now they had to follow, like, 50 different censorship boards as each state came out with their own. And news of this justifiable censorship in each state got to the conservative evangelicals, who had quite a lot of political power at this time and today. Okay.

[C]

So.

[A]

The Catholics, in particular had a real bone to pick with the salacious film industry. And they believed that movies were to blame. Were to blame for boys discovering violence and girls discovering sex. They were like. Because of this. We got to get it out of here. It needs censorship. And the church started calling. This is actually one of my favorite quotes I. I discovered in my research. The Church called ungodly movies unhealthy and impure entertainment that destroys the moral fiber of a nation and a grave menace to youth, to home life, to country, and to religion, corrupting public morals and promoting a sex mania in our land.

[B]

Not in our land.

[C]

Woohoo.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, no. Sex, man. It's like reefer madness. Like, you have no idea.

[A]

It's like satanic panic. It's all the fun stuff.

[B]

Looney tune.

[A]

So basically believing that films actually had this kind of impact on society, they put out what they called the Motion Picture Production Code, which was their moral guidelines that a movie should follow. If. And there. I won't get into it. I cut a lot of notes here. But they also created something called the Legion of Decency.

[B]

These are your people, Yvette, and mine, unfortunately.

[C]

Simmer down over there.

[A]

So the Legion of Decency, they were this Catholic organization where they organized boycotts and movies across the country. If those films didn't follow the code. They actually also put out brochures and rated the movies themselves. And if you were a true Catholic, you wouldn't watch anything outside of the top tier ranking. It was a whole thing. And when they came out with these boycotts on movies that didn't follow their rankings, keep in mind, Catholics at the time made up over 20 million people in the country. These protests were huge, and therefore they were very effective. And the industry had to listen to that. So afraid to upset the Catholics. Plus trying to avoid all 50 states different censorship rules, plus trying to avoid the government from stepping in with their own censorship rules. Hollywood basically said, you win, Catholics. We're going to create the Production Code association or the PC pca. And they said, we're going to create the pca and this group is just going to enforce the moral guidelines you've given us that would make this movie worthy of you watching it.

[B]

We're gonna stop this sex mania.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right now. Yeah.

[C]

Name of Jesus.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

What?

[A]

And this is just another added reason why it was why they decided to lean into the PCA and they decide to, like, give in to the Catholics as being. Because this organization just so happened to be ran by all major studio heads who also owned 80% of the theaters in the country. So even though this code was voluntary to follow, if you didn't abide by it or agree with all major studio heads, there was a big chance that.

[B]

Your movie was not going to get fair enough. And money is the bottom line there too. So it's like, well, at a certain point, then. Then and now. Right?

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

So the Hays Code, again, moral guidelines for any film. Film created by the Catholics that were. Now, what could go wrong?

[B]

What could go wrong?

[D]

Is this a bad plan?

[B]

It's just like, almost comical to look back. It's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, people.

[A]

The Hays Code basically ended up just becoming a banned list of topics that challenged conservative Christian norms. So some of the things that were banned were indecent dancing. And keep in mind, some of these are kind of up to interpretation. Right. So there's not even a real. Like, what is indecent dancing? So.

[C]

Right.

[B]

What was that quote from the Supreme Court like about porn? It was like, you'll know it when you see it. That's the only definition. And it's like. That's a little vague, but okay.

[A]

Sure. Doesn't help.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So indecent dancing, drug use, nudity, profanity, and ridiculing religion or law, which feels. I mean, talk about censorship. And then it got even more ridiculous where some other things that were banned were childbirth, seeing that on the screen, or even a silhouette implying it. There was. There could be no image of. Of that.

[B]

Well, because it's disgusting. So, yeah, yuck, I have a C.

[D]

Section, so I would.

[A]

And then it got real gnarly. The hate is code banned things like any mention at all of interracial relationships of only white slavery. Oh, right. Yeah, it was.

[C]

I. I read that. I was like, what?

[B]

Like, hello. Okay.

[A]

Like, what a weird. Okay, it's literally bold in. Their code says white slavery.

[D]

Is that even a thing or was it ever a thing?

[A]

You talk to them.

[B]

I mean, listen, the Catholics probably will tell you it was. And I'm sure they're not.

[A]

I'm sure they'd say that they're victims now. I don't know. I don't know anymore. Sweeping generalization.

[B]

Somebody out there for sure.

[A]

If you were to time travel and ask these people, they'd say yes.

[C]

Right, right, right. Yeah.

[B]

It's all part of the sex mania that's sweeping our nation. So sorry.

[D]

Gotta shut it down.

[A]

Boys are learning violence, the girls are learning sex. And white slavery is the biggest thing in this entire nation.

[B]

That's right. It's just a big problem. Problem.

[A]

If that ever gets cut out of context, I'm so screwed.

[B]

Oh, boy.

[A]

So the other thing.

[D]

We'll come to your defense and we got your back.

[B]

I haven't Decided yet? I'll wait and see where things land.

[C]

You haven't decided yet.

[B]

I'm just gonna see what happens, you know?

[A]

So the other thing that was really super duper banned in the Hays Code was sex perversion, which was heavily, or maybe directly, Christine. Maybe you have a different answer than I do. But it was mainly they just were talking about homosexuality there.

[B]

It's basically anything outside of a traditional romantic relationship between a man, woman. Yeah. Anything beyond that? No. Go. Perverted. Perverted, yes.

[A]

As gross as childbirth. Don't forget.

[B]

Almost as disgusting. Yeah.

[A]

So not just that, but the Hays Code also made it clear that if something were to happen on screen, if it had to happen on screen, then there were rules to how it had to be shown. This is my favorite listicle Christine has ever written for me. Thank you so much for this little.

[B]

Oh, my gosh. Yay. Okay.

[A]

Yay. I took this part from the notes that Christine initially did, and I was like, this is great. So thank you so much, Christine. Some of the. Some examples of how things had to be shown was if there had to be kissing on screen, it could only last a few seconds. And so the sneaky way around this is that directors would have. They would break the kiss into smaller cuts with dialogue in between. So that way it was technically a long kiss with just dialogue separating it.

[B]

Which, like, I think if you think about it, like, you look back those old movies, and they would, like, be kissing them and be like, I'm just so happy. And then they would kiss again. It's like, oh, I see. They're like, saying two, three seconds. Okay, separate.

[A]

Take a breath. Okay.

[B]

What the. Yeah.

[A]

Sex could only be implied, which led to a lot of. A lot of shots, such as. Or as Christine even put it, the work round is that you would show the couple kissing for, like, three seconds. Relax. Everybody with their clothes on. With their clothes on. Standing up at a church.

[B]

And then.

[A]

And then it would fade to another scene that had nothing to do with what's going on. And then it would fade back to another until like, a while later, and the couple is now again standing, maybe separate from each other, fully dressed. But it's implied. I think actually in Casablanca, there was a scene that implied that they had had sex, but really what you saw was them, one standing by the window and smoking a cigarette, and the other, the other one, like, still out of breath. It was very odd.

[B]

And they're just, like, fully clothed, and you're like, what just happened? You know, like, why? What?

[D]

Yeah, totally do not remember that.

[B]

Oh, my gosh.

[D]

I remember a little piano, and we saw it at the Academy museum, and it was.

[B]

Oh, that's so cool.

[D]

It was like a tiny little piano. Remember that event?

[C]

Oh, my God. No, you don't.

[B]

That's exactly picking up the mug and being like, nope, nope. It's not gonna pretend to remember.

[C]

It's called menopause. I don't remember that.

[A]

It sounds incredible, Rasha. It sounds.

[B]

It's really cool.

[D]

I'm glad you remember the Academy museum if you haven't.

[C]

But I do remember.

[A]

I would like to come. I have not been so.

[D]

So amazing. If you're a movie lover, it's so.

[B]

It didn't really seem to be that exciting for Yvette, but Rasha had a really.

[C]

No, no. I. I take that.

[A]

If I ever go, first thing I'm doing is sending a picture of that piano to you and Yvette, so she knows.

[D]

Thank you, Em.

[A]

So another thing is that crime couldn't show technique. So you could discuss a crime, but not its details.

[B]

Right. You couldn't teach people how to.

[D]

Teach them how to kill somebody.

[A]

Which I actually, I. I thought that that was really fascinating because one of the things. My original notes, Christine was in the movie Psycho. The classic shower scene. Yeah. If you think about it, there was no actual visual of anyone being killed. No body was shown being stabbed. The knife wasn't even shown. It was just through the shadow.

[B]

So I literally have no clue what happens. I just hear the sound.

[A]

This is what happens.

[C]

The sound, but it's also down.

[A]

It's a shadow through the shower curtain.

[B]

So it's a shadow. Right. So you don't even, like, see the. Yeah. Okay.

[A]

It's basically, the whole scene is. Is alluded to. It's. It's through. Through the score and through her screaming. You can assume what's happening, but you don't see a body or a weapon.

[B]

That's interesting because it is terrifying. Right. I mean, maybe less so. It's definitely terrifying when it came out. So it definitely, like, hit the mark, I guess.

[A]

It was not so terrifying to me once I found out that the blood they used was chocolate syrup.

[B]

That really a lot. I think you taught me that. And I was like, that calms a lot of my nervous system. Thank you.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, crime could not show technique. You could just discuss a murder, but not the details of it. So nobody could learn how to commit those crimes themselves. Profanity. Profanity was replaced with euphemisms. Clergy couldn't be villains. Of course, of Course, anything homosexual was off limits unless it could be, like, up for interpretation if it was just that subtle.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So the main takeaway is that the Hays Code basically said each film needed to uphold the values of Christian patriarchal white supremacy. Supremacy.

[B]

Easy.

[A]

Super easy.

[B]

Big whoop.

[A]

So before I get into that, just to give us a little breather here, are there any go to. Since this is Halloween that this is coming out and we are in spooky season, are there any go to Halloween movies that are your go your favorites or your comfort movies and how would they violate the Hayes Code today? I can go first to give everyone second.

[B]

I'm just realizing real quick that our podcast violates every one of these. So I'm sort of like stuck in that because I heard like, describing crime and I was like, I even do that. Like, I even tell people how crimes are done. I've really broken every rule about Catholics, clergy, people. And I mean, I'm.

[A]

I mean, the way that we just like, say Trump every single day, we've.

[B]

Literally broken every law of this thing. So anyway, sorry, I'm kind of stuck on that. But Emma, I would love to hear what Halloween movie you're thinking of.

[A]

I mean, so the. Basically, you can't lose this game because the answer is all of them would violate the his code just in terms of like witchcraft or murder.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But my. I. I just really want to take the opportunity to talk about my favorite Halloween movie, which is Halloween Town. I don't know if you were able to, if you ever saw that. That's here.

[D]

I've been to Halloween Town because I live just outside of Portland, Oregon, and it is in St. Helens, Oregon, and we've been there.

[B]

I didn't know that.

[C]

Amazing.

[A]

I don't think you know what you just said. My brain, because I've been telling myself for like five years, I'm like, one day I'm going to spend Halloween in Oregon so I can go to the real Halloween town.

[B]

What's happening?

[D]

I will join you, Em.

[A]

Thank you, but no. So if you haven't seen it, it was on Disney Channel. It became like one of their most popular movies, especially during Halloween. And it's about a family of witches that they were kids, they didn't know they were witches. They found out that their mom and their grandma were a witch, and now they go to Halloween. Debbie Reynolds was the grandma. And there's actually, I think, a trilogy. At least there's at least two of them. I think you're right.

[D]

I think there's three. My Daughter has watched a lot of them.

[A]

She like learns to like. She gets her like driver's license and it's a broom or something. Like, it's like very precious. And all I ever wanted to do was be a part of that. But that was always my favorite, I'm sure. Witchcraft. Although I did not see it in the Hays Code. I'm just gonna give it a whack and say that that's absolutely against their policy.

[B]

I would imagine. So I think that's a fair, I guess. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. On top of that, weirdly, the troll or goblin in that movie was a lot of people's sexual awakening. And I feel like that also violated that.

[B]

I don't remember his name was.

[D]

I can't picture the troll.

[A]

To be fair, by the time it came out, I don't know if you would have been attracted to a 15 year old. True.

[D]

That guy scared 46.

[A]

But I. And also as someone who is not attracted to boys, that it didn't work for me either. But I did hear a lot of people in school going, oh, my God, Luke the Troll.

[B]

And I'm like someone who's attracted to like pretty effeminate men also. This is not doing it for me. This why some people would be, I guess, into it.

[A]

I will. Well, did you look at him handsome or ugly? Because a spell makes him handsome is what.

[B]

Oh, I don't even want to get into their eyes back.

[A]

I know. I don't even want to get into what that means.

[B]

But. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

But he. I will say he's on TikTok these days and he's a silver fox now. He is. Now I still don't like boys, but wow, he. I could look him forever. He is so smoking.

[B]

Okay, all right.

[A]

Okay. He's a. If. If someone needs to go look at something on Tik Tok today, you go look up Luke the Troll.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Beautiful.

[B]

The troll is a wise phrase. Okay, sure. Like of all names really. Luke the Troll. Okay.

[A]

Oh, my goodness. Anyway, I really just wanted a second to talk about something spooky so I didn't have to talk about homophobia so much. So anyone else got a Halloween movie they want to splice in here?

[D]

My favorite Halloween movie is Hocus Pocus.

[B]

That's. I mean, another one. I thought that's one M was going to mention because that's M's other favorite, I think.

[D]

Oh. See, this is why we're friends.

[A]

I truly, I love Hocus Pocus and I was very lucky a while ago. A while ago, like a year ago. I got to meet the zombie Billy.

[C]

No.

[A]

Yeah, he was. I got to have lunch with him. It was a whole thing.

[D]

He's in the shape of water. He's been, like, huge.

[A]

He's. He's.

[C]

That's one of my favorite movies too.

[A]

He was also the Silver Surfer in the original Fantastic Four. Which.

[D]

Fantastic Four.

[C]

Fantastic.

[A]

Anyway, he was that, so it was already my favorite movie. But then I saw, I saw him and I went, I have to go talk to him.

[D]

He's an amazing human, isn't he?

[A]

He was. He's the kindest. I think him and his wife run like a, like a dog rescue or something now. Like, like they do charities for, for to help dogs get homes. Something like that. I'm totally butchering it. But he's, he's a very nice man. I I very much like him. I I, that was such a weird little brag. I'm so sorry. But every time I hear Hocus Pocus now, I have to tell people that.

[B]

He has to Extremely important. And I feel like when people meet, like famous people or actors who are nice, I need to know about it because it gives me a little bit of glimmer of hope for the world. Agree.

[D]

Let us name drop. Chris Pine is one of the most beautiful humans.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Now we're even.

[B]

Now we're talking.

[A]

I' to need you to.

[C]

And he's fine as hell, but.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And fine as hell does like her.

[D]

And I agree as well.

[B]

Yes. See? There you go.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, I bet he'd be a real handsome troll when I was in high school.

[B]

I'm sure he would have been if you did a magic spell especially. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

No, Hocus Pocus is an incredible movie. I think that's probably I I It's for sure now a classic outside of children. Right. I think all people of all of all age ranges consider that a classic movie.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[D]

And I love Hocus Pocus, too, as well as well. Really?

[A]

You do? Okay. I only watched it once, so I don't really remember too much of it, but I remember thinking this was at least very nice of them to do. I remember thinking, like, I really would love to see what a sequel would look like. And I love that everyone came back.

[D]

For it and they're talking about hocus pocus 3. But I just looked up the other day. Bette Midler turns 80 years old on December.

[C]

Have you seen, have you seen her?

[B]

Holy.

[C]

She's amazing.

[B]

How old? How old? Old. 90.

[D]

She's 79. She'll be 80 on December 1st.

[C]

Crazy.

[D]

Also from Honolulu, Hawaii. Like, Yvette and me.

[A]

Really?

[B]

See, you guys got all that.

[D]

I wish I've met her, but I have not.

[A]

Speaking of queer villains, I mean, let's give Bette Midler and Hocus Pocus a round of applause, because that's. That's a very Sanderson. That's such a. I don't know why she's queer, but she also gives, like, drag queen energy again.

[C]

They all give.

[D]

Drag queen.

[B]

Yeah, they kind of.

[A]

Sure.

[D]

But I think they're allies.

[A]

I think they would violate the Hays Code.

[B]

Just actively violating it. Just on the COVID of the. I just looked up the COVID of the movie. I'm like, yeah, wrong. All wrong. And back to what Jen said.

[D]

Witchcraft.

[B]

Yeah, witchcraft. Yeah, good point.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

But you should see the picture, because Rasha, Leilani, and Vanna dressed up as the three of them, and they nailed it.

[B]

Oh, I want to see that.

[A]

Which one would you. One were you.

[B]

Yeah, which one were you?

[D]

That was the last time we dressed up as a family. I think that was, like, three years ago.

[A]

Bring it out. Next week is the costume time.

[D]

Leilani. She won't. She doesn't want anything to do with her mom's.

[B]

What if Emilia. What if Emilio comes back out and maybe that'll spice things up.

[A]

I gotta be honest. I need a. I need a picture of Emilio before anything.

[B]

I need a lot of things.

[D]

I will text you and stand by. I'll even put it on the screen.

[A]

Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

[D]

I wish our listeners could. Could actually hear it or see it.

[A]

Well, on YouTube they can, so.

[B]

Oh, yeah, YouTube.

[C]

There you go.

[B]

Eyvette, do you have a favorite Halloween movie?

[C]

I mean, I would have to say definitely Hocus Pocus as well, because I'm a big, huge Bette Midler fan. But I also loved Nightmare on Elm Street. Like, that was my Freddy Krueger.

[B]

Like, I'm so scared of that.

[C]

That was. That was when I liked to be scared and shocked.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[D]

Which is.

[B]

It has its fun. I feel like I'm finally starting to lean into that. In my 30s, my mid-30s. I'm like, okay, I guess I can be a little scared sometimes, but, yeah, it took me decades to get there, but I feel like that's a classic, too. Do you think that breaks the Hayes Code?

[C]

I mean, probably in every way shape.

[B]

And in every way, the murder part part.

[C]

I guess there's murder, there's people of color.

[B]

You know, there's all the things.

[D]

Side note, I cannot remember Freddy Krueger's real name, but he is getting his star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame on the day this drops on. No, no.

[A]

I love that he's doing it on Halloween. I think he's in Robert England.

[B]

Thank you.

[D]

I never started with an R and I couldn't remember.

[B]

You're totally right. You're right.

[A]

How exactly?

[B]

Exciting.

[A]

I know. Sidebar.

[B]

You probably can't.

[D]

Oh, no, it's too late. It's too white. You can't see it.

[A]

But the body's 10 out of 10.

[B]

I know.

[D]

Body. 10 out of 10. I know.

[B]

Damn it. Okay, well, now this is just getting us more intrigued. We're like seeing a silhouette.

[A]

You just gave us Psycho.

[B]

It's like Psycho.

[D]

A little sprinkling.

[B]

Just a little, like, tease. Yeah. Christine.

[A]

Favorite Halloween movie.

[B]

So this is kind of silly because I feel like I never watch. I. I don't really scary movies. But I recently, for the first time, not recently, like, as an adult, watch Practical Magic. And that is a movie I never seen growing up, which is so weird because I was a huge Sandra Bulk fan and my mother was too. And I don't know what. How we missed it, but, like, that movie I watched, like, maybe for the first time, like, 10 years ago, and it has become my favorite. So I feel like I missed out as. And I did watch Hocus. The other thing is, I never watched Hocus Pocus as a kid. Kid either. Not for any reason. I think I just somehow I avoided it. And I watched that as an adult, and it didn't hit the same, I think, as it would for kids who watched it when they were.

[A]

The magic. The whimsy was.

[B]

Yeah. I think I like watching it for the first time as an adult was like. I didn't. I missed out on some of that, I think. But Practical Magic, I gotta tell you, that one was. That one was a good watch. Even in my. You know, that's classic, too. Yeah.

[A]

And again, witchcraft. And that's okay. We got.

[B]

Oh, I thought. I thought that was Hank. And Em was like, that's okay. And I was like, are you. You talking to the dog? Okay, sorry. We all have dogs around. Yeah.

[A]

No judgment at all.

[D]

She just wants to be a part of the episode.

[B]

She'll stop in a second.

[A]

That's fine. Well. So, okay. Thank you, everyone, for sharing your. Your favorite movies with me. But to get back real quick, I have one little piece left, but a reminder. The pca, which is the organization that decided to enforce all of these rules, they were also all the Studio heads. So you kind of had to apply abide by them. They appointed a minister named William Hayes as their spokesperson to further appease the conservatives, which is where we get the Hayes code. They also appointed Joseph Breen to read through every.

[B]

This guy.

[A]

This guy's crazy.

[B]

This guy is. Something's wrong with this guy. Like, he's clearly covering up for something because he's like, I'm gonna read every single script and like, approve it or not approve it. And then I googled like, who is this guy? And they were like, he's just the guy who reads the scripts. And I was like, but where did he come from? And like, why is he the guy?

[C]

Who is he?

[B]

Nobody knows.

[A]

Knows he. Yeah. So he got hired to read through every script of every potential project. And his whole job was to approve or deny it based on its content and if it violated the Hayes code. But it was not just him approving the script. He had to approve the visuals in the scene, he had to approve the wardrobe, he had to approve the marketing.

[B]

Like, every creep. There's something creepy about this dude. Like, get out of here.

[A]

He was weirdly the green light for your movie. And this made him. Someone quoted him as one of the most powerful men in Hollywood history because he pretty much just had a nod his head and then you would get a movie. But wow.

[D]

Wow.

[A]

And fun fact, Christine, if you could do a little Google for me because I know your fingers are faster than mine.

[B]

I'm on it. I'm on it.

[D]

That's what she said. No, I'm sorry.

[A]

I found out that he made 150k then, which we love to do the inflation calculator.

[C]

Wow.

[A]

He made 150k a year in 1934 or 1930, 30s.

[D]

And did he do it all the way up until 1967 when the Hays Code ended?

[A]

The most powerful era was the 30s and the kind of dwindled into the 40s. But it did technically exist through the 60s. But I imagine his job was really the most potent in the 30s.

[B]

He literally made $150,000 on this a year.

[A]

That at the time that.

[B]

That is today $3.6 million. Like that's bananas for like he knew something. He something on someone. I abso.

[C]

Absolutely. He must have known somebody in the Catholic church.

[B]

Like some totally, totally had something. Something's going on.

[C]

Some connect. Yeah. Because they had so much control.

[A]

You know, 100, 100. He Basically, since he was so strict and it was him, it was really him or his office that you had to appease to get your movie done. A lot of people started coming up with workarounds for the Hayes Code, which Christine's going to get into for a second. But I did find one extra bullet point that I wanted to add. Add in, which is that a lot of people would send initial scripts in to their office, into the Joseph Breen office, and they would make it as outlandish as possible and in scenes that they actually didn't care about. So that way, the office would be so focused on those things, on the crazy scene, they would willingly cut that part and scrap it. So that way, hopefully no one noticed the actual sleight of hand.

[B]

They're like, oh, look how naked she is over here. And then they're like, oh, we'll keep the stabbing in.

[A]

Yeah, apparently. Yeah. It's funny you say, because apparently Alfred Hitchcock was like the. The biggest.

[B]

Oh, interesting.

[A]

The biggest name in this, where he would just write completely false scenes knowing they'd get cut out. But hopefully, if people pay attention to that, no one would notice his, like, other stuff he was trying to slip in, so.

[B]

Well, if you're Alfred Hitchcock, it's like, you really can't work under these conditions. You know what I mean? Like, come on, give me a break.

[A]

No wonder he made movie. Made movies like birds. It's like, under the Hays Code. It's like, that's the only weapon.

[B]

Birds are evil. Does that work? Yeah, 100%.

[C]

Oh, no.

[D]

Was Alfred Hitchcock queer?

[A]

I think he actually there. I feel like that's.

[D]

There were rumors, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't know if it's true, but I do think that was something people talked about. Hitchcock queer. Let's see. He likes this thing.

[B]

This is how our podcast goes. We're like, let's be quiet for five minutes.

[C]

Look it up.

[A]

He's associated with queer themes because his films contained queer coded characters and subtext. So I guess maybe that.

[B]

I think he wrote a lot of queer characters. I do think he wrote a lot of queer characters and did a lot of queer coding intentionally for representation. But I. Because he was, like, against the. The censorship of it. But yeah, I don't know that they ever, like.

[D]

Right. I'm just curious.

[C]

I think he was against.

[A]

I don't know.

[C]

You know? Yeah, yeah.

[B]

All right. Anyway, According to Alfred Hitchcockgeek.com he was a repressed homosexual, so I'm not. I'm not gonna even read that article.

[D]

But I'm for the first 30 years of my life.

[A]

Yeah, right.

[B]

Like, I'm like, that's for some. Somebody Else to decide, not me. Wow. Sorry.

[D]

I don't mean to out Alfred, you know, I mean, he reads.

[B]

No, I think it's okay. I think he's all right. I think he's all right.

[A]

He's fine.

[C]

He's fine.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Anyway, that was. That was some of the stuff. I know Christine has more to add to, like, the. The workarounds for Joseph.

[B]

Okay, so let me see. Am I starting at the highlighted part? Right. Yeah. Okay, cool, cool. So, like I'm said, people are now finding workarounds, especially at friend Al, Fred, Alfred, he. A lot of the workarounds had to do with Alfred. We're not that close. I don't know why I'm pretending. I don't even know if he's gay or not. So writers would, like, find ways to work around this code. A lot of it was implied stuff. Right. So nuanced stuff. So body language, voice tone, costuming, innuendo. You can see where we're getting with the villain arc of this. So you obviously couldn't say something openly, and instead you would hint at it. And with the plausible deniability of, like, I don't know what you're talking about. That wasn't. That's your interpretation, not mine, you know, so the innuendo is what was really being used at that point. And that is kind of the workaround that led to. Made the groundwork for queer coding. Because queerness wasn't stated directly, but it was signaled indirectly. And not because it was, like, clever or subversive at first, but it was the only way to even present queer traits.

[D]

Get us in there.

[B]

Yeah. On screen at all. And so, like, an example, I think M. Did you put this in here? This is a really good example. Example. Yeah. Marlena Dietrich. Dietrich and Morocco. Her character was interested in a man. So on paper, it's like. And I think Xena, Warrior Princess was very similar where, like, she'd be pursuing men in the show narratively. But then, like, Marlena Dietrich wore a tuxedo, kissed a woman. Like, there were these things. And you'd be like, but she's dating a man, so actually doesn't count. You know, it's like they had these workarounds.

[A]

I love that you mentioned Xena. Like, the. That.

[B]

That's a good one.

[A]

I never even. I mean, I knew that she, like, was off. Like, something gay was going on there, but I never even put that together.

[B]

So she and the. The Her. I forget the her name. They were, like, implied as queer from the beginning by the writers. And then the audience, they, like. I read an article about it yesterday, people would say, what's. They're not gay. And then the actress is later said, like, oh. We realize, like, certain people just couldn't see it because it wasn't in their worldview at all. And then the people who were queer or had like that association were able to look at it and go, like, ah, I see immediately, like, what's happening here. And I connect with it. So it's interesting. It's like this innuendo thing kind of works. Because if you're like, really not looking for that depth of something or like, even have queerness on your radar, you're probably going to miss it.

[A]

You know, it's so fascinating to me that some people. People don't see that depth, don't block that. I'm just like, it's so. It's so wild when you're.

[B]

When M is 4 and is like, that's a gay guy. That's a gay lion or a gay guy.

[A]

He's literally his pet is a majestic tiger or something. No, I. You know what that reminds me of too? Christine is. I don't know if you ever saw this. This Disney movie, but I'm happy to give you the Cadet Kelly. Oh, I loved.

[B]

No, I love Cadet Kelly.

[A]

If you've ever watched Cadet Kelly or if you ever knew need something so obviously queer, it hurts. It's ridiculous. And it was Disney, so I'm sure even if they were attempting that, they couldn't say it. But it was basically Cadet. It's Hillary Duff in her prime and she had to go to military school.

[C]

Yes, I did see it. I did see it. It was a great film.

[A]

I loved it.

[B]

It's cute.

[A]

And she has to go to military school. And the. I guess the girl that's training her like. Or is like her like, cadet supervisor. I don't know what the right word is.

[B]

They.

[A]

There is like, be beyond tension. And they keep getting, like, weirdly close and staring at each other's eyes. And I'm like, yes, kiss. Oh, my God, get it over with already.

[B]

Come on.

[A]

And this year, by the way, they came out and did say they. They're like, okay, canonically fine. It's very gay. They were.

[B]

I feel like a lot of actors are now saying, like, yeah, canonically, we. We've pictured them as gay. So, yeah, they're gay. Happy now?

[D]

And I'm like, yes, you're saying thematically, what is that?

[B]

What canonically, like, in the canon, like, in the lore of it like canonically. Canonically.

[D]

Yeah, sorry, I've never heard it.

[B]

I don't know that I've ever even said that word out. I don't know that I've ever said that word out loud. But M said it and I was like, with it. You both said it. So I'm like, you know what it means?

[D]

I need to know too.

[A]

To say something is canon is like we're just going to deem it official in the zeitgeist. Like it's canon retroactively.

[B]

It's now official.

[A]

Yeah, like, like in Harry Potter. Like it's canon that magic exists. Like it should. Just like it's part of their world. But no, I'm sorry, Christine, when you. When you were talking about. Oh my God, the two. The gay ones. Oh, Xena, the gay ones. Yes. I was like, that immediately made me think of Cadet Kelly. And it goes right back to everything you're mentioning here. It's just like there was just so many undertones that were hinted at and if you were looking at it, you would see.

[B]

Yeah, if you, if you had a little bit of media literacy, maybe you could like perceive that. But otherwise it's like whoop right over your head. And of course, I like work to their advantage. If you were writing a movie or, or something like this and trying to get past that Joseph Breen or whatever the hell his name was. That creepo.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it was enough to tell you that a person might be queer, but not enough that anyone could prove it. And so that's how that narrative would go. Now I'm excited about this part. I created a little three part section here of types of queer coded villains because looking back, there are like different versions of how these villains kind of came to be. So there are some that were intentionally queer coded, but by queer creators. So.

[A]

Oh, for good purpose.

[B]

For I wrote yay. Next to it. Like, like this was meant to be like a positive representation, one of them being Ursula of the Little Mermaid, because she was based on the iconic drag queen Divine. And the writers have said. Said that that is. That was absolutely their inspiration. And so that was one of those. That's obviously like Rush said, like one of the classic queer villains of our time. Slay.

[D]

Slay. Slayer.

[B]

Oh yeah. She look up. Divine and then look up. It's very fun. It's like the comparisons are very fun. So the other one that I have here, which is kind of out there in itself a. More. There aren't many intentionally queer characters that we know of because people wouldn't Talk about that back then. But in recent years, there have been more like, apparently I don't watch the NBC show Hannibal, but apparently Hannibal Lecter has just been confirmed. Pansexual, but not. I just read that in the past few years. But that's part of the. And the writers said that's. And he's, I guess, with a man on the show. I don't know. I don't really follow it, but I was very surprised.

[D]

Same.

[B]

I'm too scared.

[D]

I couldn't watch it.

[B]

I can't watch it.

[C]

I don't watch the series.

[B]

But I did read something. But talk about a villain, right? And so it's like, oh, interesting. But the creator of that. The writer of that or creator of that show is queer also, and said he did that intentionally.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

And those are the only two examples, unfortunately, I have, of, like, very intentional.

[A]

Oh, Christine.

[B]

I know. But there are only a couple for the other ones, too, if that makes you feel any better. Can we.

[A]

Can we play a game where we go back and talk about our favorite queer villains, then try to put them in categories?

[B]

Absolutely. Do you want to do it now or do you want to wait till the categories are?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, I want to hear.

[B]

Oh, okay, gotcha. So I have intentionally queer coded as my next category, but by studios and straight people as a form of moral threat. So to write queerness into a character as, like, see, they're the bad guy. And even if it wasn't intentional, it was like, oh, they're other. Right. And so an example of this is one of my favorites, which, like, this movie terrified me as a kittens. So it's not, like, a favorite movie of mine, but Peter Pan from 1953. Stop laughing. It's scary. Captain Hook, I knew, like, he had. I always remembered him being kind of, like, effeminate and, like, not really knowing, like, with his little handkerchief and not knowing how to be, like, the tough hero. But I was reading an article on the different characters and, like, the subtleties that they implemented. And some of it was that he wore pink pants. And in one scene, he takes off a coat and he has a pink shirt underneath. And it's like these things that you don't necessarily even realize at the time, but you're like, nobody else in this movie is wearing pink. You know it's.

[A]

Right.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And I wonder, too, if or maybe, you know, this answer. Was it. Do you know if it was. Do you know if it could have been intentional at all of, like, oh, let's make them look gay.

[B]

I Know, they wanted him to look effeminate and, like, the opposite of a masculine, like, hero type.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

So they were like, okay, what's the opposite of, like, a hero? Okay. Pink. He doesn't know how to, like, he keeps. He's, like, all frilly and doesn't know how to, like, do anything. I mean, they really made him just, like, this ditzy, effeminate guy. Weird, wearing pink. And so that was, like, one of them. The other one that I think is the most, to me, like. Like, hit the most. I don't know. Nostalgia is Prince John from Robin Hood in 1973. Do you remember him? He was, like, the lion. He was. He. He would suck his thumb. He was, like, in this infantilized, like, King, and he was always whining, and he had all these jewels, and he was like this pampered, like, King, and he sucked his thumb, and his whole thing was, like, just a big baby. And he was always very girly and, like, emasculated. So a lot of this is just, like, emasculating, like, male characters that are the villains.

[D]

It makes the audience want to not like them.

[B]

Exactly. And it's meant to be like a. Oh, look at this loser.

[D]

You don't want to be like this.

[B]

You don't want to wear pink and suck your thumb and be, like, into jewelry. Gross.

[A]

You know, that is so wild to me because I think about, like, you would think a villain as someone who would be, like, hard to defeat and therefore should be, like, ultra masculine. And so it's weird. They didn't even care about this as someone to defeat. This is just someone we just don't like.

[B]

It's just they're like, oh, they're the bad guy. And don't you want them to lose? Because look at what a loser they are. Like, they can't even drive a boat. And I'm like, well, okay.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't know. It's just. It is weird. Weird. Yeah. Now, the other category here is audience read or culturally absorbed queer coding, which is more of what, like, we were talking about of over time, kind of co op, taking it back, like, reclaiming, like, for example, Scar from Lion King is a good example. You know, he was never necessarily intentionally portrayed a certain way, but he has eyeliner just like Jafar. He. As the one buzzfeed article I read by Sam and Steven, who were like. They called themselves very gay. That was their. That was their, like, what do you call it?

[D]

Their tagline.

[B]

Their tagline. Another like, oh, God, Christine, sorry, I have Such bad brain fog. I'm not even going through menopause, but my brain is like, talk to yourself.

[A]

Like, they're like, like a descriptor of themselves.

[B]

Well, like, they're, they're, they're, they're back. Like they're. Christine.

[C]

Their backstory or something.

[B]

Or like, the reason they're able to give this. This insight, like their, their, Their credits. They're like their credibility. Yes, there you go. So thank you. Their credibility is that they were like, well, we're very gay, so we can. We can write this article, which is we rank the Disney villains from least gay to most gay. And it's on a scale of one to gay. And they actually, they ranked scar as a 9.5. So, like, when you were 20 talking about it. I mean, when they wrote why, they said he killed his own brother and framed the murder on his adolescent nephew. We're sorry, but no straight character is capable of being so petty. Plus the eyeliner, like, just all of it. You know, they write these little descriptors and I'm like, oh, I see it. I see this. Like. And he has, like, the, you know, the eyeliner. And it's like, same with Jafar.

[A]

There's so many other reasons I could have gone with. I love that they just went well for the flare.

[B]

Who else would do that? That's.

[A]

Nobody else cares about the theatrics.

[B]

Exactly.

[D]

Is what they're saying.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. And that's why I gave their background. I want to be like. Just to clarify, they're claiming that they're. They're allowed to say this, so it's not sure, but yeah, so that. That was kind of. Those are kind of the three main character or main categories. Like, people have co opted certain characters or, like, decided and taken them under their queer wings as queer characters, whether or not they were intentionally done. So some were done so, like, insidiously with bad intent, and some were done to celebrate queerness as very, very few back in the day, but some. So, yeah, those are the three categories. And do you want me to, like, say any of, like, how do you want to do the little. But put some in it.

[A]

Oh, I was just going to guess mine, but I feel like you already. I really just keep inserting myself. Sorry, everybody, but I.

[B]

It's your podcast. Exactly the.

[A]

No, I. Well, you. I will. Before I even do that, I just want to say thank you. You. Because I always thought that Ursula was supposed to be an intentional slight. I didn't know that it was supposed to be like, an Intentional. Like a gift of like a. Oh, look how proud we are.

[B]

I'm so glad you say that, because she's actually number one. Of course, on the. On the Buzzfeed listicle, from one to gay says yes. And it says one to gay. She is gay with like 11 wives. It says she's literally modeled after the drag queen Divine. Only a true gay diva would plot to steal another vocal. Nicholas Pipes. That stuff is made for gay stand Twitter. She's a Mariah to Ariel's Ariana. A queer icon and worthy of the gayest spot on this list. Sure. And so that's their take. I want to be clear. But. But you know, who else is on here is Cruella. And that's how I kind of learned about the. They. They call her a power lesbian in this article.

[A]

She is.

[B]

Oh, okay. Yeah. Because it says also that she is serious road rage. And they say everyone knows gay people come out first as LGBTQ and then second as horrible drivers. And I was like, interesting. I'm learning so much.

[D]

That's hysterical. My wife has, like, the worst road rage.

[C]

But I think I must be gay then.

[B]

Maybe we're all gay then. Yeah. Yep. Everyone's a little gay.

[C]

Ey?

[B]

Everyone's a little gay, Eyvette. What a way to find out.

[D]

Well, don't tell Gino.

[C]

He'll be fine. He'll be fine.

[B]

He's Italian.

[C]

He's Italian.

[A]

Sidebar. Christine, I feel like one of the things that I don't think. Why would you mention this? But it's just like an extra fun fact of like, one of the ways. Ways they made a power lesbian look like a bad person is her last name is literally devil.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[A]

I had no idea until this conversation that Cruella was even based on anyone queer, but the who. Can you. Can you say the name of the person that she's named?

[B]

Yes, it was. I keep wanting to say Tabitha, but it's not Tabitha. It's Tallulah. Tallulah. Lebanese.

[A]

Apparently she's very similar to the Marlene Dietrich where she also dressed very masculine in. In shows or in. In movies. It was very heavily perceived that she was queer. And I think in real life she actually was known to have a long term partner and so.

[B]

A roommate.

[A]

A roommate?

[B]

Yeah. Maybe.

[C]

Maybe best friend.

[A]

Maybe she's an Alfred Hitchcock. She just happens. We don't know.

[B]

She's a friend of Alfred.

[A]

Alfred's friend of mine. But no, I. I think she was. I. You. All. My brain's kind of exploding a little bit. All the little points that I was learning are all kind of smashed into each other. So anyway, I think Jafar is in category three, where it's just like, a perceived gay person. Do you.

[B]

Okay, I have a guess here or not a guess, but like, a little quiz. Do you guys have a guess as to the. On their list, the least gay, which is their rating is.025.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Scale of one to gay of a villain. From what? From which classic Disney movie do you think is, like, the least gay villain?

[A]

The best game you've ever suggested.

[B]

I know, right? I'm having a great time, but I'm like, I don't know if this is too difficult. Like, there's so many freaking movies.

[D]

Let me think.

[C]

I need a multiple choice.

[B]

I know, I know, I know.

[C]

Because there's so many.

[B]

There's so many.

[D]

Lee's gay. The stepmother from Cinderella.

[B]

Literally, the stepmother from Cinderella. Did I get it right? Rasha. Damn, Rasha. You're going to up.

[D]

I was just thinking, like, she was such a.

[B]

Like she's such a. I'm sending in the private chat a picture of this.

[A]

Cuz I. Oh, my God. How did you nail that so fast?

[B]

That was like, the most amazing thing I ever. Wow.

[D]

I'm. I'm telling you, I've seen every Disney movie ever made, and I am. I've been obsessed since I was a little girl and still into my 40s. Like, I was way before I had a kid. Kid. And that, like, she was just sticking in my brain.

[C]

That totally makes sense now that you say it out loud.

[A]

Yeah. And also ugly, mean, she had kids, so maybe she. Maybe she had a straight past at the very least. Or.

[B]

Yeah, to her picture. And then in the chat. And I'm gonna read the little descriptor here. Her name's actually Lady Tremaine. And with the name like that. Yeah. So it says, AKA Cinderella's evil stepmother has got to be the most heterosexual of the bunch. She's uptight, boring, and obsessed with the royal family. She's Basically the late 1600s version of your Aunt Meredith. If Lady Tremaine were alive today, she would DVR Dancing with the Stars and asked to speak to a manager every time she set foot in a Chili's. It doesn't get much straighter than that, Chilies. Yeah, she'd be a total Karen. So anyway, you nail Rashi? I don't know.

[D]

I didn't look it up.

[C]

I.

[D]

That's 100% didn't look it up.

[A]

I. That's so wild. I'm really, I'm. I really. Yeah, she does.

[D]

Very proud of myself.

[B]

That was. I'm very proud of you.

[A]

But another reason I would have thought is because. Doesn't she have a husband? Is. Cinderella's dad has to be in the picture, right, for her to be the stepmom?

[D]

Well, he died.

[B]

I think he dies. Yeah. Because that's why she's trapped. Have you seen that Hillary Duff flick? Remember that one?

[A]

Oh, yeah. Oh, Cinderella story.

[B]

Wait, the stepmom in that is. Is. What's her name, another ally?

[D]

Jennifer Coolidge.

[B]

Jennifer Coolidge.

[C]

I love Jennifer. For coolage.

[A]

Oh, my gosh. Well, I know that alone. The fact that a game is. Can you name a straight villain in Disney? Is, like, so sad.

[B]

It's pretty crazy. Yeah. And another good one here, like, kind of in the middle is the Queen of Hearts from Alice in Wonderland, which I was like, that's from the live action or from the act or from. Oh, sorry.

[D]

From the.

[B]

From the animated.

[D]

Okay, interesting.

[B]

And they said she may be married to a man, but she has for sure dipped her toe into the lady pon. Do you have an image of what she. She looks like?

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

Again, not attractive.

[B]

No, not attractive.

[D]

Like, very, kind of very hateable.

[B]

Like, voluptuous. And, like, very. Like just kind of very masculine as well. Very masculine and very masculine. Just kind of like in the way. I don't know, but it says here. Plus, look at the King of Hearts. He's tiny. You know, our butch queen is bossing him around in the bedroom, and that earns her some solid queer. So they're really trying to reclaim this in a way. Way of like. But we love her, even though she was meant to be kind of like, you know, put on blast.

[A]

But it feels a lot. If either of you watch the Rugrats, the twins, by the way, their last name's also. But no, Phil and Lil Deville are.

[B]

Oh, my God, you're right. I never put that together with the name.

[A]

They're twin babies. They're. They're of the Rugrats. But their parents, I've always thought are canonically queer because their mom. Mom is like a very strong masculine force. And the husband was always kind of like, more effeminate, which, at the end of the day, I should just be like, wow. They were so progressive to just have a couple who just looks different than what you imagine. But in my mind, I was like, that has to be a lesbian.

[B]

Like, that's different, right, from everything else on tv. Yeah.

[A]

I think I was just hoping as a Kid. I was like, please be gay. I just need some sort of reference.

[B]

It just hit me. I should have said this earlier as my reason I drink, but I was so distracted by the Grinch. But earlier last night, I was putting Leona down for bed, and she's 4, and she looked at me and she said, some people have two daddies, right? And I was like, huh? And she's like, some people have two mommies. I said, yeah. And she's like, well, I'm glad I have a mommy and a daddy. And I was like, oh, good. Well, you know, we're glad we have you. And then she's like, okay, good night. And I was like, oh, I love you. I'm so happy because I think a kid in her class has. Has queer parents. And I was like, oh, thank God. Like, we can just say it and be like. I'm like, when I was four, that was certainly not a conversation I was having with anyone. So I just was very, very. My heart felt. Felt nice and full after that. So it was a good timing, too. To be doing this episode today also.

[D]

Means you're raising a good human Christie.

[B]

Yeah, well, I like to think so. I hope so. She's. Well, she's just like me, so that's obvious. You know, there's obviously, there's no way around it. But no, I feel like now every time we watch a Disney movie, I'm gonna be like, see that guy? I know. Same.

[C]

I mean, like, Gina.

[B]

That picture so frilly.

[D]

Funny that you say that, because Leilani, like, she came out to my wife and I as straight, like, years ago, but. And it was so cute the way she did it. But I, I, I think because, you know, like, we didn't have queer representation growing up.

[B]

Really?

[D]

Like, no. Outwardly, at least, not positive. Right. So any person that, like, pops up, I'm like, oh, Frank Ocean. You like Frank Ocean music? Do you know that Frank Ocean is gay? Like, yeah.

[B]

You're like, hey, actually, I have a fun fact. Yeah.

[D]

Like, I tell her that all the time. Rolls her eyes. I'm like, representation matters, Leilani.

[C]

Yes, but we. But we did grow up, though, with our. Our two gay uncles. Like, who?

[D]

Yes, Uncle John and Uncle, like, they walked.

[C]

I mean, in a Catholic wedding, I had my mom and dad and then I had my two uncles walk me partway down the aisle, and then my mom and dad took me the rest of the way. So we were raised, you know, with knowing and accepting of all people. So, yeah, when I say I'm the biggest ally Around. I am, but I constantly learning too, you know?

[A]

So.

[D]

Yeah, Yeah, I know a funny story. When I came out. So Yvette was in Italy because she goes every year with her husband. And I had just come out to my mom on the phone, and literally, I think it was like 20 minutes later, Yvette calls me from Italy. And this is back in 2009. Right. So you know that that call was expensive on her cell phone, but something.

[C]

Was telling me to call your sister. You got to check in.

[A]

No way.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

And I was like, did mom tell you? I'm like, did she really?

[A]

Like, I had 20 minutes.

[B]

Tell me what? Seriously? Yeah, tell me what. Oh, my God, that's crazy.

[C]

And it's so funny because we were at a car wash in Italy because my husband. That's a whole nother story in the car wash. And I just had this, you know, intense feeling that I got something's wrong. Like, I gotta.

[A]

I gotta check in.

[C]

I gotta. To check in.

[B]

And then you're like, something's wrong. My sister's gay. Oh, well, no, not that.

[D]

Married to. Dude. I had gotten married on television.

[B]

Oh, oh, oh. I did not know that. I'm so sorry.

[D]

That I was loser in 2006 with my then fiance. And we got married on Inside edition in January 2006 in front of the world. And so this is May 2009 is.

[B]

When I ended up.

[D]

Up coming out.

[B]

So you both have quite. I mean, I know that already, but, man, you have stories for days, huh?

[D]

Oh, for days.

[A]

For days. For days.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

You need a podcast where you and just do, like, just like, get into.

[D]

I know all our stuff. I mean, a lot of our. A lot of our family, like, skeletons came out when we did Root of Evil.

[B]

The true story of the. I did not put that together until, like, a little bit before we did our episode together. And I was like, why do these names sound so familiar? Familiar? And I was like, oh, I was really invested in that. In that podcast back in the day. And so it, like, hit me, and I was like, oh, my gosh. Wow.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

So welcome to our crazy family.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[D]

But they have to cut out a lot of, like, our story because it, like, because it was about the Hodel family and about the Black Dahlia Elizabeth Short. Right. So they had to intersect all of it. But, you know, there's so much more. Every single person has a story.

[B]

Story.

[D]

Every single person.

[B]

But, yes.

[D]

The biggest ally.

[B]

Wow.

[D]

You'll ever meet.

[B]

Ever.

[D]

Ever.

[C]

That's how I feel.

[D]

Like they're only Sad because, I mean, I don't want to speak for you, but I think because everybody loved my ex husband.

[C]

Right, Right, Exactly. But at the end of the. At the end of the day, what I always say to Russia is you have to decide what makes you happy. And whatever it is that makes you happy. Happy. I'm gonna be happy. That's it. That's it. That's how our mother raised us, you know, so. But yeah, it was just that, you know, that sixth sense, that was like, something, I gotta call her. I gotta check in. Something's going down.

[A]

That six sense is an eerie gift. I. I've only gotten to have that a few times, but every time I'm like, I know it in my soul. Something is going on right now.

[B]

Isn't that weird?

[A]

So weird.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Does it ever happen to you guys where you, like, have that sense, but. But then you're like. You never really get confirmation of what it was. Cause that's happened to me like once or twice where I was like, oh, my gosh. Like, one time I had this full on, like, full on episode, and I was like, my grandmother died and I. It was true. And my husband was like, what the hell? And I was like, I don't know, I just knew. But then it happened again a few years later and I was in a Trader Joe's and I was like, something's happened, Something's happened. And he goes, oh. Cause, like the last time.

[D]

But then we never.

[B]

Yeah, we never really got like a confirmation. I still wonder sometimes, like, maybe I was just having a normal panic attack, but I was like, I remember being normal panic attack. Just your average panic attack. But I feel like sometimes I get that, like, gut feeling and I'm like, well, maybe I'm just not meant to know what it is right now, you know? Oh, wow.

[C]

Yeah. Anyway, I feel like for me, it's normally, it's. It rings pretty clear. Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Do you get like.

[D]

She always knows you get like, oh.

[B]

You know, even who to. Like, obviously you knew to call Rash. So you knew.

[C]

It was like. Yeah, it just. It just comes through. I don't know.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And maybe it's just something that I got from my mom, you know, but definitely. Yeah.

[A]

Have you ever had it also, Rasha, like, where you can feel about Yvette?

[D]

I have it like Yvette nowhere near. And I. I think it might be because, like. Because we're 11 years apart. Like, when I was born, like, I was Eyvette's baby. Like, talk about Christine. You were Talking about, like, you're the built in babysitter, right? You know, so, like, Yvette would take me everywhere with her and then changed. You know, we became best friends. When she says, I stopped being spoiled in my teens.

[C]

But the thing. Let me just say this. I was very spoiled because to imagine 11 years and then comes a little baby. So I was spoiled. But when she came along, it was like. It was like I had my own little doll.

[B]

Oh, yeah, exactly.

[C]

She was everything and always had me. Like, this is my. But she was a. She was a little brat.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[D]

I don't remember that. That's just part of it. But it's continued to this day where like, even when I, you know, was 40 years old, flight attendant, and I was living part time in San Francisco with Yvette and her husband. Husband Gino, and I was commuting back and forth to Portland and like, she would, like, stay up, like, until I got home and she'd have, like, dinner ready for me. So it's like she's so fiercely protective of me and always has been. And then it translated to Leilani. Like, I. I feel like Yvette knows more about when something's going on than I do.

[B]

Yeah. Okay. Interesting. Especially if she's like you, you know, like a. Like a younger. So much.

[A]

Well, that then. Christine, get ready for your sister to have a weird connection with Leona.

[B]

With. Oh, God. I was like, my brother probably. He'll be like, yeah, she learned about gay dads yesterday. Christine, watch out. Leona learned about gay parents. The world is changing.

[A]

Can I tell you?

[D]

The world is changing.

[B]

I know. Hopefully.

[A]

I was just on a plane earlier this week, and so you just mentioned gay dads. I just want. I have a quick story about gay moms, is that I was sitting in a row with probably the first time I've ever seen a lesbian couple that was in their, like, 70s or 80s. I like, how rare does that happen? And.

[B]

Yeah, especially, like, openly, like. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

It was like they were clearly in a relationship. And.

[C]

Well, y' all haven't been to San Francisco.

[A]

I'm just kidding. Yeah.

[B]

I was gonna say maybe we need to move to San Francisco. I live in Kentucky, so for sure.

[D]

I don't see that very.

[A]

I just. I know. Never see it. And so. And the fact that all three of us were in a row, I was like, this feels you.

[B]

They put you in that row. They put you in the exit row.

[A]

I've never felt so safe in a row on an airplane before. But the. I Asked. I. I get chatty sometimes, so I.

[B]

No.

[A]

What?

[B]

A podcast host gets chatty.

[A]

I. I made small talk with them and I asked how they met, and they have the craziest story I've ever heard. They were both. They both had the same mutual friend, and they didn't know each other, but they wanted to be. They wanted to be moms. And they asked their individual friend to be their donor. And so he never told the other one. He just was donated to them. Both women ended up getting pregnant. Never knew that they both had.

[B]

What?

[C]

What?

[A]

They. They both never even knew that they had kids from the same father who was their mutual friend. And that because I guess he made an agreement that he, like, wouldn't be sharing that information.

[D]

Same donor. Sure, sure.

[A]

And then he passed away. But right before he passed away, he told them, I just want you to know that your son has a brother out there. And so the two moms were like, well, we should get together so our sons can meet so they have each other. And then they fell in love at that first play date.

[D]

Oh, my God.

[A]

So then they're half. Each of their sons are half brothers, but they're also now stepbrothers by. Because they got married.

[B]

So that is bananas.

[D]

Isn't that crazy chicken skin?

[C]

That's a great movie.

[B]

Do you think they call each other half brothers?

[D]

Like, I know. That's like my biggest pet peeve.

[A]

I know.

[D]

I know.

[A]

I guess if you're a half brother and a step brother, you might as well just be the. The full deal.

[B]

Yeah. That feels like. Yvette. Like a movie like, that feels like we need to write screenplay. Absolutely. That breaks every code on the hay. Make sure all of it has to break the code.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. No, I thought that was super interesting. Anyway. Anyway. Sorry, we're. But I. Now it just happened and so, like, I can't stop talking about it. I'm just like, I've. I'll never hear a story like that.

[B]

I mean, what a story. Yeah. You know, they love when people are like, how'd you meet? And they're like, sit down.

[A]

Literally, one of them rolled her eyes and went, oh, brother.

[B]

And they're like, yes, we have been approached about a television show. No, we're not interested. Wow, that's cool. Oh, well, this is so fun, you guys. I mean, unless anyone has anything else to bad, I think we've. We've really run the gamut here on topics.

[D]

You know, I'd actually. It's so funny. I want to ask.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

All of you So I was getting ready for this episode. Right. I didn't. I did not Google the bus.

[B]

You Googled the least. Disney.

[A]

I don't believe you because that answer was.

[D]

So I'm telling you, that was.

[B]

Maybe you have the same intuition as you that. But it just is like, manifests in a different way.

[C]

But the thing about Rush, it's about, like, Disney, but the thing about Russia is she does not lie. So let's just. Yeah. Does not lie.

[D]

Yeah. This is true.

[B]

I do not know. That's good to know.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

You don't strike me as someone who would just make that up. Yeah, no.

[D]

And I like. And I'm such an open book. But preparing for this, this episode, I'm like, I have to re watch Disclosure, the. The documentary by Laverne Cox.

[B]

And I never actually watched that.

[D]

Oh, my gosh.

[C]

You should watch it.

[B]

So.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

It's heartbreaking and it's incredible.

[B]

Incredible.

[D]

And, you know, I can't remember if it came out in 2020 or 2021. I only got to re. Watch like a, like 37 minutes of it, but, like early this morning. But I. I had Yvette watch it. You know, my wife and I watch it together.

[C]

And that was right. During 2020.

[D]

2020. Right. Yeah. And so Laverne and so many other trans creators and actors and just these amazing creative humans were talking about the history in Hollywood, and they didn't talk about the Hays Code specifically, or they. They may have. I can't remember. I didn't get to that part. But basically, queer people in media have always been placed as the villain.

[B]

Really.

[D]

From, like, the beginning.

[B]

Sure.

[D]

And you don't think about it, like, the things that I would think were funny. Like, I love the movie like soap dish. Right. And, you know, Kathy Moriarty, you know, comes out, out and they find out that she was trans. And like, you know, like, I laughed at that and like, I didn't like. It's just. It's so sad. And it just makes my heart break, especially for the trans community and the entire queer community. But I. I just love so much that there's so much more representation.

[B]

Yeah. And then you can talk about it.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I mean, one another.

[D]

And that's the thing. Like, back then with. Because of the Hayes Code and because of all these different things, like, you could not find representation. Right. That's why M had to clock and be like, yep.

[B]

Reading the Room at four years old. Yeah.

[A]

I was like, I don't know if you're gay, but you're coming with me.

[B]

Like, exactly.

[D]

And like, yes, I said, like, we have our beautiful Uncle John and Uncle Michael, who have been together for over 45 years, and they're the most beautiful relationship in our family, but love it. I personally never had any queer.

[B]

Right.

[D]

Cisgendered female.

[B]

Sure.

[D]

Representation for me, you know what I mean? Like, in the media or in person. Because in Hawaii, like, we had mahu, and that's like two spirit equivalent of two spirit in the Hawaiian culture. Or trans, you know, in the Hawaiian culture. But I just, I, I love that we're all out here, right?

[B]

You know, like, three out of the.

[D]

Four of us are queer. Yvette's the biggest, the minority.

[C]

But I'm all the other things, you know, And I think that's, I think that's the beauty of it, you know, Like, Rash and I are 11 years apart. I am still constantly learning. And I think that's what people need to do. They need to open their mind and just be accepting of human beings and be kind to one another. What is so hard about that?

[B]

It's the fear. I think people are afraid. Like, people are so afraid. And it's like there's. Even when there's nothing to be afraid of, it's like they turned into this. I mean, speaking of, like, making monsters out of things, you know, and like, also, Raja, based off of what you said of like, they. Queer folks have always been villainized or trans folks have been villainized. Like when you mentioned that movie Soap Dish, it's also like, not only villainized, but also like a laughing stock. So it's like, either you're like the villain, like the bad guy, you want to them to lose and, or oftentimes both. You're like a caricature. And like, you know, you don't. Nobody wants to be that guy or whatever. If you're watching, what was the one that we were. Oh, like Captain Hook. Like, nobody, right? Nobody wants to be like, oh, I love that guy. You know? Right. Insidious.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I, my. I feel the same way about the, the movie Ace Ventura when, yes, the villain was literally, it was like a mystery who done it. And no one could figure out who did it because. Spoiler alert. The woman at the end had, had transitioned.

[B]

I don't think I ever watched that movie.

[A]

At the time. It was not referred to as the woman had transitioned. And now she's, you know, a woman and she's. Nobody can tell, you know, who's the guy, who's the. And it was. I remember loving that movie. And now when I watch it, I'm like, oh, this just hits every bad nail on the head. And.

[D]

But so it wasn't it.

[A]

Was it? I don't remember anymore. I remember Jim Carrey and that's kind of it, right?

[D]

No, it wasn't Kim Cox.

[C]

It was.

[D]

Oh, my God. Oh, my God. This going to drive me nuts. She was really good friends with Madonna. Like, I can't think of her name, please.

[A]

Christine or Sandy Ventura.

[D]

Sean. Sean.

[B]

Oh, it was Courtney Cox.

[A]

Was it?

[B]

Oh, it was. But.

[D]

But was Courtney the one who was trans?

[B]

Oh, Sean Young.

[A]

I don't. I don't know.

[B]

I just remember his name was Sean Young. Okay.

[D]

Yeah, Sean Young. It was her. It was her.

[A]

But I mean, I remember back then thinking that movie was hysterical. And now I can look back and I can go, oh, my God. And like, especially as someone who is now on my own gender journey, I'm like, what are the odds? I'd laugh at that. But Jafar was fine. But. But so, right. It's. There's mentioning that you guys are, you know, that some people are too afraid to be willing to unpack. I think a lot of it also has to do with, like, the shame and embarrassment of knowing you used to be part of that culture and to absolutely be part of the community.

[B]

That hard to look inward like that. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. So, yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's just, I think, important to that everyone be fine with knowing that, like, you started in a. Maybe in a worse place than you are today. It's. It's okay. You just gotta keep. Keep learning.

[D]

So just like Yvette said, keep evolving. Keep learning.

[C]

Evolving, keep learning.

[D]

Do keep educating to make the world a better place.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

Hopefully we're trying every day, one person at a time.

[C]

One person at a time. Yeah.

[A]

Well, thank you so much.

[B]

This was so fun. We never have guests, so, like, I was really nervous, but you guys are awesome and we appreciate you and you're just like rays of sunshine. So thank you for bringing.

[C]

You guys are rais so bad from laughing.

[B]

I feel like I got really weird with the Grinch at the beginning, and I do apologize. But beyond that, I. A pretty wonderful experience today.

[D]

We're going to watch the Grinch.

[C]

Amazing experience.

[B]

And I'm talking the old version, like the 60s one that probably also didn't follow the Hayes code, but I don't know, but it was from like 19, like 62, and it's the only one I like. And I'm very. I'm. I'm a pure. I'M a Grinch purist. See, I'm making it weird again. All right, let's.

[D]

You're not making it weird. You're not making it weird. I like the Benedict Cumberbatch.

[B]

Yeah, I do, too. I do, too. That's the only other one I'll accept. Thank you.

[A]

I'm literally. I'm literally. I've been listening to the Hercules soundtrack this and now Hades is like a whole, you know, experience for me. Now that I'm just going to go.

[B]

Excellent. Oh, here's on the list of the Buzzfeed. I should send you guys a list because the, the, like little an. An annotated notes about each character are very fun about how they're queer.

[C]

I would love to read it.

[B]

Yeah. About, like, why and how in their road rage and all that, like, things that you wouldn't necessarily come up with yourself. Love it. Well, thank you so much. All so much. Where can people find you at?

[D]

So Supernatural Pod on Instagram @rashapicarero@ywbl bend. I'm talking all over my sister.

[C]

Which is fine. It's fine. I'm used to it.

[B]

Sisters are allowed to do that, I think. Yeah.

[D]

So supernatural podcast.com, iet and rasha.com.

[B]

Oh, cute. I want to go.

[D]

So Supernatural drops every Friday wherever you get your podcast.

[B]

And it's a really fun show, guys. And especially if you're listening to in this way Drink. Just an easy transition. Supernatural. Come on. Yeah.

[A]

All right. Thank you, everybody.

[B]

Well, thank you so much.

[A]

We'll talk to you outside the podcast. And Doug, Here we have the Limu Emu in its natural habitat, helping people customize their car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual. Fascinating. It's accompanied by his natural, natural ally, Doug.

[B]

Limu is that guy with the binoculars watching us.

[A]

Cut the camera. They see us. Only pay for what you [e-mail] Liberty.

[D]

Liberty Liberty Liberty Savings.

[A]

Very underwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company affiliates excludes Massachusetts. This episode is brought to you by LifeLock. It's Cybersecurity Awareness Month and LifeLock has tips to protect your identity. Use strong passwords, set up multi factor authentication, report phishing and update the software on your on your devices. And for comprehensive identity protection, let LifeLock alert you to suspicious uses of your personal information. Lifelock also fixes identity theft, guaranteed or your money back. Stay smart, safe and protected with a 30 day free trial at lifelock. Com. Podcast terms apply.