E406 A Nap Seance and The Christine Claw™

Summary

Podcast Summary: And That's Why We Drink – Episode 406: A Nap Seance and The Christine Claw™

Hosts: Christine Schiefer & Em Schulz
Release Date: November 17, 2024
Title: A Nap Seance and The Christine Claw™

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1. Personal Anecdotes and Light Banter (00:00 - 05:00)

The episode opens with light-hearted banter between Christine Schiefer and Em Schulz. Christine shares a humorous anecdote about attempting to take a nap using her Aura Ring, which monitors her biometrics. She describes how her device's condescending message about her sleep efforts led to a playful exchange between the hosts.

Notable Quote:

• Christine Schiefer [02:16]: "So it's my little aura ring. So it does like your biometrics, you know, my biometrics is what it is, what it does."

2. Discussing Travel Fatigue and Coping Mechanisms (05:00 - 15:00)

Em delves into her feelings of burnout from constant touring, detailing the exhaustion from multiple live shows and book signings in Texas. She expresses frustration about limited time at home and the strain of continuous travel. Christine empathizes, sharing her own struggles with sleep and napping.

Notable Quotes:

• Em Schulz [05:00]: "I'm in a bit of a funk. I came home and I'm just, like, so depressed..."
• Christine Schiefer [07:02]: "There's a come down from all travel and I feel like ours is so, like, heightened also..."

3. Childcare Updates and Family Life (15:00 - 25:00)

The conversation shifts to their personal lives, focusing on Christine’s daughter, Leona. They discuss milestones like potty training and the challenges of modern parenting. Em shares humorous stories about navigating daycare updates and managing Leona’s activities, highlighting the blend of responsibility and chaos in their lives.

Notable Quotes:

• Christine Schiefer [14:31]: "Leona's good. She's finally fine."
• Em Schulz [15:02]: "I feel like it's the equivalent of, like, when you get updates from, like, doggy daycare."

4. Exploring Health and Wellness Trends (25:00 - 35:00)

Christine and Em delve into current wellness trends, discussing Nerra smoothies and their impact on health. Em recounts her experience at Erewhon Grocery, detailing the ingredients of her favorite smoothie and debating the inclusion of certain supplements like turkey tail mushrooms. Their conversation highlights the intersection of health consciousness and modern dietary habits.

Notable Quotes:

• Em Schulz [12:27]: "And immunity rescue shot. Of course."
• Christine Schiefer [12:34]: "Because I'm starting to get concerned because..."

5. Adopting New Technologies and Tools (35:00 - 45:00)

Em announces her purchase of a travel microphone to continue recording while on tour, expressing excitement about integrating new technology into her workflow. Christine shares her own experiences with digital tools, emphasizing the importance of adaptability in their dynamic lifestyles.

Notable Quotes:

• Em Schulz [05:51]: "I'm very excited to try that."
• Christine Schiefer [05:53]: "I can't wait to see how that works."

6. The Haunting Griggs Mansion (45:00 - 60:00)

Transitioning to the main story, Christine and Em delve into the eerie history of the Griggs Mansion in St. Paul, Minnesota. They narrate its construction in the 1830s by Chauncey Griggs, a young and ambitious merchant who quickly rose through various industries. The mansion, renowned for its Victorian architecture, became infamous for its numerous hauntings and ghostly apparitions.

Key Points:

• Chauncey Griggs: Born in Connecticut in 1832, Chauncey moved west at 14 to attend business school and later became a lumber and coal merchant.
• Architecture: The mansion featured 24 rooms and was considered extravagant for its time, costing approximately $35,000 (equivalent to $1.2 million today).
• Hauntings: Stories of apparitions, including a thin man in a top hat, footsteps, and unexplained phenomena plagued the mansion. Notable ghosts include the caretaker Charles Wade and a maid who reportedly hanged herself.

Notable Quote:

• Em Schulz [19:26]: "This is the Griggs mansion, and we start on New Year's Eve, 1832. Everyone's celebrating... someone’s giving birth."

7. The Abduction of JC Lee Dugard (60:00 - 95:00)

Christine introduces the harrowing true-crime story of JC Lee Dugard, an 11-year-old girl abducted in 1991. The narrative intertwines with the Griggs Mansion's haunted legacy, suggesting a possible supernatural connection to the crime.

Key Points:

• Background: JC was raised by her mother, Terry, and her abusive stepfather, Carl Probin. Despite her struggles at home, JC maintained a hope for a loving father figure.
• The Abduction: On June 10, 1991, while waiting at a bus stop, JC was struck by a man with a stun gun and abducted by two strangers—a man and a woman.
• Investigation: Carl Probin was initially suspected but cleared after passing polygraph tests. The FBI launched an extensive search, but JC remained missing for 18 years.
• Haunted Mansion Connection: Reports of hauntings at the Griggs Mansion coincided with JC’s disappearance, leading listeners to theorize a possible link between the two mysteries.

Notable Quotes:

• Christine Schiefer [72:01]: "JC Lee Dugard was born in California in 1980... When she's seven, her mother marries Carl..."
• Em Schulz [85:07]: "But he gave a perfect description of the vehicle... he was able to give an exact description of the vehicle's year, color, make and model."

8. Emotional Impact and Community Response (95:00 - 105:00)

The hosts discuss the emotional toll on JC’s family, particularly her mother Terry, who struggled with guilt over a broken promise to say goodbye. They highlight the community’s involvement through vigils, flyer distribution, and media appearances aimed at keeping JC’s case in the public eye. The juxtaposition of real-life horror with the mansion’s ghost stories underscores the podcast’s theme of merging true crime with the paranormal.

Notable Quotes:

• Em Schulz [91:18]: "Every May, she became just inconsolable because June 10th was the day of the abduction."
• Christine Schiefer [97:16]: "She made her mom promise not to forget. But the next morning, Terry was running late and decided she didn't have time..."

9. Cliffhanger and Tease for Next Episode (105:00 - End)

The episode concludes with Christine promising to continue the story in the next part, leaving listeners in suspense about JC Lee Dugard's eventual survival and return. The hosts exchange light-hearted remarks and tease future discussions, maintaining the engaging and personable tone of the podcast.

Notable Quote:

• Christine Schiefer [100:56]: "I have been hoping to do for years... the kidnapping of JC Lee Dugard... that is the end of part one."

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Conclusion

In Episode 406 of "And That's Why We Drink," Christine Schiefer and Em Schulz adeptly blend personal stories with a deep dive into a chilling true-crime case intertwined with paranormal elements. The hosts' dynamic chemistry and inclusion of noteworthy quotes enrich the narrative, providing both entertainment and a thorough examination of the haunting Griggs Mansion and JC Lee Dugard's abduction. The episode sets the stage for a gripping continuation, promising further exploration of the mysteries that blur the lines between murder and the supernatural.

Transcript

[Christine Schiefer]

This episode is brought to you by Google Gemini. With the Gemini app, you can talk live and have a real time conversation with an AI assistant. It's great for all kinds of things like if you want to practice for an upcoming interview, ask for advice on things to do in a new city, or brainstorm creative ideas. And by the way, this script was actually read by Gemini. Download the Gemini app for iOS and Android today. Must be 18 to use Gemini Live. This episode is brought to you by Dutch Bros. Big smiles, rocking tunes and epic drinks. Dutch Bros is all about you. Choose from a variety of customizable handcrafted beverages like our rebel energy drinks, coffees, teas and more. Download the Dutch Bros app for a free medium drink. Plus find your nearest shop, order ahead and start earning rewards offer valid for new app users only. Free medium drink Reward upon registration 14 day expiration terms apply. See DutchBros.com hello and welcome to our podcast. And that's why we drink. It is a paranormal. Shut up. It's a paranormal podcast where sometimes we interrupt each other M.D. something to say.

[Em McCorkle]

Carry on for the next two hours. Christine, why. Why on earth do you drink?

[Christine Schiefer]

Oh, my God. I can't. I can't believe it. I slept.

[Em McCorkle]

Oh, okay. I thought there was going to be a number after that. That's good. How long did you sleep?

[Christine Schiefer]

I don't know, but my little. My little app said, wow, you did it.

[Em McCorkle]

Really? That feels condescending.

[Christine Schiefer]

Sure did. I said, I've been trying for weeks.

[Em McCorkle]

You know, I said, you're so brave.

[Christine Schiefer]

You know, it's condescending when it says, hey, why don't you try harder to sleep? And I'm like, you know, go yourself. First of all, does it do it.

[Em McCorkle]

Based on length or based on depth? No.

[Christine Schiefer]

So it's my little aura ring. So it does like your biometrics, you know, my biometrics is what it is, what it does.

[Em McCorkle]

Oh, okay.

[Christine Schiefer]

Obviously, yeah, well, yeah, no more questions. Right, that's obviously clear enough. Anyway, I, like, woke up with Leona as I have been doing and got help, got her ready. Then I was like, I'm going to take a nap. I never take naps, as you know. I was like, I'm just going to sleep. And so I slept. I slept through my two alarms.

[Em McCorkle]

Good for you.

[Christine Schiefer]

And I slept like hours. And my good for you. Finally caught up a little bit. So I'm feeling like very weird because.

[Em McCorkle]

I just woke up and you just took a nap. You just took it.

[Christine Schiefer]

Oh, sorry, yes. To clarify, I woke up probably 25 minutes ago. And, oh, my God, I had that panic of, oh, did I miss our recording?

[Em McCorkle]

Oh, story my life.

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah, I know. I felt like you. And then my app was like, holy smokes, what happened? I was like, hell if I know. And all the little boys, Gio, Juni, and Mooney were all, like, around me like a little seance.

[Em McCorkle]

They thought it was over. They were ready to eat you.

[Christine Schiefer]

They were hosting my funeral. Yeah, they were actually probably ready to.

[Em McCorkle]

Eat me when they were discussing the recipe, how they were gonna brine you.

[Christine Schiefer]

Who gets the first bite? Yeah. So anyway, I was probably dead to the world, but, yeah, so I. I woke up feeling like, whoa, what is this feeling of, like, having slept more than, you know, five hours or whatever?

[Em McCorkle]

Oh, God.

[Christine Schiefer]

Well, when we were at the Driscoll recently for our tour, we always stay at this, of course, this haunted place in the one M covered ages ago. And we stayed there this time. And they. It's like, it's beautiful old hotel. But the mattress was too damn soft.

[Em McCorkle]

I felt like Goldilocks.

[Christine Schiefer]

I. I was in the bathroom in the middle of night getting towels to, like, put under me. Like, I was like, really? How old am I that, like, my back hurts after, like, 10 minutes of laying on a soft mattress. But in any case, I couldn't sleep there. And I thought, oh, that's. Nope. Turns out it was on a Wednesday morning before we recorded, so.

[Em McCorkle]

You know, I'm proud of you for napping at all. It's literally my favorite hobby, so.

[Christine Schiefer]

Thank you. And you know what? I did my favorite thing that occasionally happens, which is where I drank coffee, took my medication, and then took a nap. So then when I woke up, it all was like, we're here.

[Em McCorkle]

It's like going to the beyond.

[Christine Schiefer]

And it was like, oh, man, I feel so good now. I woke up and I was like, wow, all my meds have kicked in. My coffee is kicked. I feel good. Anyway, I'm just like. It's rare that I hop on here and say, hey, I'm feeling awesome, because. I don't know. I don't know. Because my body is rested. That's very rare. So, anyway, why do you drink this week?

[Em McCorkle]

I don't know. I'm in a bit of a funk. I came home and I'm just, like, so depressed, and I don't know what my deal is, so maybe I need a nap. Combined with uppers and downers.

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah. Yeah, that's exactly right. You get it?

[Em McCorkle]

No, I think because I've been. I think my body's just tired of traveling, which this happens during every tour where, like, there's only, like, a leg left or a couple legs left. And I'm. I just. I think this one's extra hard because I'm realizing how little I'm actually gonna be in my house for the rest of the year because, oh, like, we're going on a leg and that both legs are gonna have me going back to the east coast at different points. So I'm going to. We have Atlanta and Charleston, but that's where Allison's family usually comes to see the show. So then we're gonna be there. From there, I think I going to go straight to Seattle like I usually do for Thanksgiving. So one of the things that I told Christine recently is that I bought a travel microphone, so while I'm traveling, I can still record. And I'm very excited to try that.

[Christine Schiefer]

I can't wait to see how that works.

[Em McCorkle]

I think it's going to be. Because I feel like it's. It's been in my mind. I'm like, oh, no. Like, I still have to get all the way home just to record. But if I'm. If I have a microphone with me, then I think that stress will go away, which is super nice. So excited about that. But then I come back from Thanksgiving, globe trotting.

[Christine Schiefer]

We're. We're recording, and I'm suddenly like, I'm in Seattle, I'm in Atlanta, I'm in Timbuktu. I can't wait.

[Em McCorkle]

Coming at you live from. Yeah, and then I. And then we have our. Our last show. But immediately from there, Allison's sister has a baby shower. And then from there, I'm gonna go home for Christmas. Like, it just becomes a thing where I'm not really home a lot and I'm already a little burnt out. And so I'm just like, oh. So I think I. My brain is kind of saying, bye, bye, and manually shutting down on its own.

[Christine Schiefer]

Hey, maybe that's what happened to me, because my brain also said that it didn't even respond to alarms on my Apple watch. It was just like, no, thanks. We're not participating in the world anymore.

[Em McCorkle]

It was. Yeah, it.

[Christine Schiefer]

I feel like I try being unconscious.

[Em McCorkle]

You know, I. Yeah, it's usually a tried and true practice.

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah, you're the one who taught me that. So. Who am I kidding?

[Em McCorkle]

No, but today's the first day I feel a little on the up and up. But the last few days, I was just like a little, like, I just couldn't get Myself off the couch. But I think that's because I was go, go going.

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah, there's like a come down from all travel and I feel like ours is so, like, heightened also, because we did. I mean, especially Texas, we did three live shows and two book signings and, like, back to back. So it was just a lot of, like.

[Em McCorkle]

Which doesn't sound like a lot, but it is weirdly draining.

[Christine Schiefer]

It sounds like a. I feel like.

[Em McCorkle]

If I heard somebody else saying that, I wouldn't understand. But it really does take a lot out of you. And I don't know if it's because, like, I feel the need to be on or if it's just because you add that to all the flying and traveling we do. And, I mean, it's work.

[Christine Schiefer]

You know, we're traveling for work. It's a lot. It's a lot.

[Em McCorkle]

So anyway, I. Today I. I drink because I feel better than I have the last two days. But the last two days were just. I was just.

[Christine Schiefer]

Sorry.

[Em McCorkle]

That's okay. I just felt like.

[Christine Schiefer]

Arrived to take his first bite. He's mad that I woke up.

[Em McCorkle]

He said, I know I doused you in something when you were asleep. I gotta go find that one spot.

[Christine Schiefer]

It's like you're salted already.

[Em McCorkle]

I also drink because our manager knows I love a good hunk of meat. And apparently my Christmas present got here early because I'll be traveling so much.

[Christine Schiefer]

Oh, that's not. She's so thoughtful.

[Em McCorkle]

A box of steak just arrived my way, so now I know what I'm having for dinner.

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah, I sort of feel like Maggie knew, like, you were having a downer day and was like, here you go. Here's a box of steak.

[Em McCorkle]

The only thing I don't like about a box of delicious steak is that I have to make it. I just wish it would. I wish a waiter would show up.

[Christine Schiefer]

You know, that they should also include, like, that Jetson. Some sort of Jetsons, like, tool that.

[Em McCorkle]

The Spy Kids microwave.

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah, right, exactly. You get it. Like some Inspector Gadget situation. I don't know.

[Em McCorkle]

Anyway, so that will be my. My. My treat today. Oh, and my treat last night because I was not feeling good, so Alison tried to, like, cheer me up. We went to Erwan and I had a basic bitch moment. And I had. I had one of my unnecessarily expensive smoothies, and it was actually my favorite smoothie I've had from there.

[Christine Schiefer]

Which one? I've never had one, so I don't know why I'm asking, but I'm curious.

[Em McCorkle]

Okay. So I tried. For those wondering, there was like a big thing for a while about Hailey Bieber's strawberry smoothie that came out. Not actually a fan of that the way that I thought I was going to be. And I also really want to try Kendall Jenner's Malibu Mango Mango Malibu situation.

[Christine Schiefer]

LA is crazy. I always forget celebrities get to make.

[Em McCorkle]

Their own smoothies and then it becomes insanity. And another LA thing is that for those who don't know, Erewhon is like this unbelievably bougie.

[Christine Schiefer]

Do you know what somebody said to.

[Em McCorkle]

Me the other day?

[Christine Schiefer]

Grocery store felt really stupid. My tattoo artist was like, oh, well, we went to that really fancy store. It's. It's. And I was like, oh, I was about to say it. She goes, it's the one that's nowhere spelled backwards. And I went, air one. Holy. I didn't know that was nowhere spelled backwards. I'm so slow. Like, did you know?

[Em McCorkle]

Yeah. That's why in the show you. When like the girl, she said that she's the girl who's after runs like a. Basically an Erwan. And when it's. When it's spelled backwards, it spells nirvana.

[Christine Schiefer]

But it's yes, yes. Yeah, yeah, yes. That's exactly what she told me. And I went, oh, my God, I'm so. Okay.

[Em McCorkle]

It's like absolutely making fun of erw.

[Christine Schiefer]

Right, right, right, right, right.

[Em McCorkle]

But anyway, I went there and I had the berries and cream smoothie, which I didn't love, that I couldn't make modifications because it's the membership smoothie, which there is a membership to this grocery store.

[Christine Schiefer]

What?

[Em McCorkle]

And they held.

[Christine Schiefer]

Are you a member?

[Em McCorkle]

No, I think if I was a member, I could have made a modification, but I wasn't allowed to. But yes, they usually have like a members only smoothie. And if you're a member, it's free for a certain amount of time before they switch it to another smoothie. But the reason why it's such a perk that it would be free is because some of the smoothies, like, are like $30. Like, it's insane. And the one that, the one that I got Yesterday was surprisingly $11. I didn't felt like a normal smoothie for once, but that's like an airport price. Yeah, yeah. But I had the, the berries and cream one and I think if I could have added dates to it, it would have been perfect.

[Christine Schiefer]

Oh, interesting. Okay, so that's your new favorite. What kind of like, is it like hemp milk? Like, what kind of Milk do they put in it?

[Em McCorkle]

Let me tell you. Erewhon.

[Christine Schiefer]

I'm of course already on Erewhon Smoothies.

[Em McCorkle]

Yeah, they're. Oh. It's called the Alo Alo. Alo. It's that company that's a lot of bougie people wear. Okay. So the ingredients are okay.

[Christine Schiefer]

These look great. The pictures of them look beautiful. Wow.

[Em McCorkle]

Yeah. My goal is to try every single one of them. I will tell you the cloud one, that's that beautiful blue. It is not that good. So it's got to look pretty to I guess get it.

[Christine Schiefer]

Oh my God. It's got organic mushrooms.

[Em McCorkle]

Yeah, this one had that too. They. It's because it's so nutritional.

[Christine Schiefer]

Coconut milk.

[Em McCorkle]

Almond Mommy. So this one has coconut milk. Strawberry. Sorry. Organic coconut milk, organic strawberries, organic blueberries, grass fed vanilla, collagen reishi, which I don't know what that is. Organic goji berry, organic dates, turkey tail and Kamu. Kamu.

[Christine Schiefer]

Wow.

[Em McCorkle]

And immunity rescue shot. Of course.

[Christine Schiefer]

Maybe that's why you feel better today. Maybe.

[Em McCorkle]

Maybe it saves me actually.

[Christine Schiefer]

So what is turkey tail? Because I'm starting to get concerned because.

[Em McCorkle]

I googled turkey tail. It's a mushroom few.

[Christine Schiefer]

Because I definitely googled it and I got to tell you, a bunch of pictures of roasted and raw turkey came up on my page. So I'm glad.

[Em McCorkle]

No, that was the thing I wanted to remove because I'm not a mushroom person.

[Christine Schiefer]

Well, there's a lot of different mushrooms in here. Looks like ratio.

[Em McCorkle]

But the b. They said there was no modifications because I'm not a member. I guess I'll just suck it up.

[Christine Schiefer]

They probably literally threw your straw. They probably looked at you and thought you need the mushroom. We're not letting you change it.

[Em McCorkle]

I know. Anyway, my goal is to try every single one of them and I think we're like halfway through the list, so.

[Christine Schiefer]

Fantastic. I can't wait to hear your rankings at the end.

[Em McCorkle]

Thank you. And because I'll never probably. But I'm also having a fruit cup today from Erewhon.

[Christine Schiefer]

That looks like a good one though.

[Em McCorkle]

Ask me how much this was. Can I get near one prices? Yeah.

[Christine Schiefer]

So it's a. For those just listening. It's. It's like about a quart and it's sliced strawberries in the bottom and pineapple on top.

[Em McCorkle]

Is that mango? Mango, mango.

[Christine Schiefer]

Oh, mango, mango, mango. That changes the game for sure. I would guess $11.

[Em McCorkle]

It was $15. Okay.

[Christine Schiefer]

Okay. Maybe members pricing it would be $11.

[Em McCorkle]

I. No, I'm. Their mango is always like the freshest mango. So that's the thing too, is, like, it's so expensive, but everything there's for a reason.

[Christine Schiefer]

Like, there's a reason celebrities, like, only get their food there because they know.

[Em McCorkle]

It'S gonna be, like, perfect, you know, and everything's like. It's also because everything's already prepped and in, like, beautiful little jars and labeled like, it's very. It feels very black mirror in a way. But it's also like. Like, a lot of people who go there are like, celebrities personal assistants who are grocery shopping for them, and when they get to the house, the food's already basically done for them.

[Christine Schiefer]

Right. I got you.

[Em McCorkle]

Anyway, I. Capitalism really popped off today because this mango is delicious.

[Christine Schiefer]

And look it work. Feeling so much better.

[Em McCorkle]

Sometimes you need a basic day. Anyway, that's why I drink. I'm sorry for the. The tyrant.

[Christine Schiefer]

Fantastic.

[Em McCorkle]

Anyway, is that it? Any updates on your life?

[Christine Schiefer]

I think that's it. I'm just, like, vibing, you know.

[Em McCorkle]

Leona's good.

[Christine Schiefer]

Leona's fantastic. She's finally fine.

[Em McCorkle]

Can you give us a potty update?

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah, she's. Well, her teacher just text me she peed, and I was like, yay. So she's. She's good. She's figured it out as we. She would. But it was a long, arduous couple weeks there.

[Em McCorkle]

I feel like it's the equivalent of, like, when you get updates from, like, doggy daycare.

[Christine Schiefer]

Yes.

[Em McCorkle]

Oh, she's sharing well. And she pooped.

[Christine Schiefer]

So apparently daycares do that. And she hasn't been in, like, a traditional daycare. But, like, my friends who have kids in daycare are like, yeah. They send, like, all these photo, like. Like, they send, like, a little chart with, like, full diaper. Like, had a bottle, you know, like, they put like, a little sticker chart, basically. Or, like, in the app, they, like, fill. They check in, like, change diaper. And I'm like, this is really like, puppy daycare.

[Em McCorkle]

I mean, they're in a phase where I think both of them.

[Christine Schiefer]

They're similar. Yeah.

[Em McCorkle]

Are equally cute and entertaining and also capable of doing what they can do. Yeah.

[Christine Schiefer]

And probably a limited amount of, you know, report card information to include. Yeah.

[Em McCorkle]

This is the era where you find out if they're naughty or nice when you're not looking much like a puppy dog.

[Christine Schiefer]

Oh, exactly. See?

[Em McCorkle]

Okay, well, good. I'm glad that she's surviving.

[Christine Schiefer]

We're all just having a good time. It's cold now. It's finally 58 degrees. It was like 80 the other day. It's November. Feels like winter. We're gonna get moving on some Halloween. I mean, Christmas decorations, you know.

[Em McCorkle]

Nice. Is she old enough to go sledding this time?

[Christine Schiefer]

Skeleton was stolen again.

[Em McCorkle]

Christine.

[Christine Schiefer]

My new one.

[Em McCorkle]

Just stop buying it at this point.

[Christine Schiefer]

Oh, wait, I already talked about this. Because I had to write. Because I had to write. I lost my legs. Well, then guess what? Somebody posted. Hey, I don't have his legs. I think I found his torso. And I went, well, that can't be right. And I went back and looked, and someone had come back for his torso.

[Em McCorkle]

Oh, yeah. You have to stop buying it at this point.

[Christine Schiefer]

You have to stop. Christine.

[Em McCorkle]

I beg. I beg, Please.

[Christine Schiefer]

No. You know, next year I'm gonna turn into my, like, my, like Dennis the Menace. Like, I'm gonna set up like a. A home alone kind of trap in front of you.

[Em McCorkle]

Or at least a camera that. Like a. A high definition camera inside the skeleton. Yeah, I don't.

[Christine Schiefer]

I really. Oh, a GoPro in the skeleton. Okay. I never thought.

[Em McCorkle]

With a tracker.

[Christine Schiefer]

With a tracker. Wait, I'll put an air tag on him.

[Em McCorkle]

Yeah, right behind the old skull noggin.

[Christine Schiefer]

I love this idea.

[Em McCorkle]

I love tracking things and then watching them go away. And then I can yell at people and not feel bad about it.

[Christine Schiefer]

I. Okay, too. I'll join you.

[Em McCorkle]

It's fun. Okay. Oh, okay. Right. I do have a story for you. I forgot that that's what we do sometimes. I. After I hang out with you when, like face to face. When we're on tour and we don't talk about work stuff. Yeah, Like, I just not tell our conversation stories. Our conversation isn't followed with like, oh, I have a story for you. I forget that that's why we're here.

[Christine Schiefer]

I know it's hard to remember sometimes.

[Em McCorkle]

It's hard to do my job. It's hard, Christine.

[Christine Schiefer]

So hard. Hola.

[Em McCorkle]

Fresh.

[Christine Schiefer]

I was hoping maybe you pick up. I've been taking Spanish. It's fine. It's no big deal. Don't try to make a big deal. But anyway, that's my new hellofresh call. Holiday season. It's coming, folks. We're excited, but we're also looking for ways to spend and stress less. HelloFresh makes mealtime nearly hassle free. Nearly hassle free.

[Em McCorkle]

Whether you're craving hearty comfort food, trying to please picky eaters, or looking for a calorie smart meal plan, HelloFresh has all those options and more available on a rotating menu.

[Christine Schiefer]

I just had the curried chickpea fritters. Hey, that was freaking delicious. And I actually got to make them and finish Moana with Leona afterward. That's how. That's how easy it was. And highly recommend. What about you?

[Em McCorkle]

I had the sweet and smoky barbecue glazed chicken after my Texas trip. Very yummy. Yeah. And I did not watch Moana with Leona, but I. I just sat in silence and enjoyed my child free life with my sweet, smoky barbecue glazed chicken. Next time, get 10 free [e-mail] across seven boxes. New subscribers only. Varies by plan. Just go to hellofresh.com freedrink hellofresh, America's number one meal kit. Okay, so, yes, I have a tale for you. And this is. Oh, my gosh. Where is this? This is in St. Paul, Minnesota.

[Christine Schiefer]

Oh, very cold up there.

[Em McCorkle]

And this is from the era is the 1800s. Dun, dun, dun. And also the 1900s. Dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun.

[Christine Schiefer]

That's a lot of eras. That's 200 years.

[Em McCorkle]

And also it gets mentioned briefly at the end of the 2000s.

[Christine Schiefer]

The end of the 2000s.

[Em McCorkle]

Sorry, wait a minute. Hang on. At the end of my story, the 2000s.

[Christine Schiefer]

Oh. I was like, wow, so we're skipping to the future.

[Em McCorkle]

Yeah. A lot of time traveling in this one. This is the Griggs mansion, and we start in on New Year's Eve, 1832. Everyone's celebrating. They're like, what? What lies ahead in 1833? Well, they don't have time to think about that because someone's giving birth and.

[Christine Schiefer]

Oh, no. Always ruining the party.

[Em McCorkle]

They're giving birth to our main character, whose name, my friend, is Chauncey.

[Christine Schiefer]

No way.

[Em McCorkle]

Chauncey Griggs.

[Christine Schiefer]

Literally, a giant siren just started outside. Oh, you know what? I think it's the tornado siren, like, the practice one. But it really was good timing. Oh, my God, Chauncey, you don't have a practice siren?

[Em McCorkle]

Nope.

[Christine Schiefer]

Oh, on one Wednesday every month in Cincinnati, they do the practice. Like, air. Like, emergency sirens.

[Em McCorkle]

Okay, but if I were a kid right now at recess and I. This was, like, the time and I got to be outside while I heard the siren, I would have lost my mind and told myself, oh, do you have an idea?

[Christine Schiefer]

We used to have the best time pretending it was, like, Apocalypse Now.

[Em McCorkle]

I totally would have played along. Yeah, I would have always hidden under the monkey bars if I was outside.

[Christine Schiefer]

There's so many holes in those, though.

[Em McCorkle]

I would have buried myself in mulch.

[Christine Schiefer]

I would have gone a tunnel slide.

[Em McCorkle]

Oh.

[Christine Schiefer]

Or tire swing bouncy.

[Em McCorkle]

See, you've clearly been here before.

[Christine Schiefer]

Okay, I've been. Right, right. Fair point. I have 30 years.

[Em McCorkle]

You're sending it with a drag. Cigarette. Yeah, like, I've been here a long time, kid.

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah, yeah. Classic beginner amateur over here.

[Em McCorkle]

I'm just pouring mulch on my hair.

[Christine Schiefer]

This will save me. Yeah, from the fake tornado. That's not happening.

[Em McCorkle]

Okay, okay. 1832, New Year's Eve. Chauncey.

[Christine Schiefer]

Chauncey. Which sounds a lot like Chauncey Bliss.

[Em McCorkle]

Which, by the way, if you trust me, I know.

[Christine Schiefer]

Don't recall, folks. I had forgotten his name. Every single time I ask M, I forget his name. His name is Chauncey Bliss. He's our SIM character that we invented on the podcast. I don't remember. He says H. He does very similar things. I don't remember why, but it was the funniest thing that's ever happened to me. And I feel like there was a.

[Em McCorkle]

Story where there actually was someone named Chauncey Bliss.

[Christine Schiefer]

Oh, maybe.

[Em McCorkle]

And I think we were like, he sounds like a sim.

[Christine Schiefer]

Oh.

[Em McCorkle]

And now we think he's only a sim. Oh.

[Christine Schiefer]

We were probably in a Sims era at that point and it just sparked some discussion. Okay, okay. You know what, by the way, John C. Griggs.

[Em McCorkle]

John C. Griggs. And I will say, while I've been sitting in my little depressive era, three different times, I thought, you know what would heal me? Staying up all night and playing Sims.

[Christine Schiefer]

I see. Oh, God. There is a Chauncey Bliss. And he was suspected in a murder.

[Em McCorkle]

Oh, that sounds like a sim. He pulled the ladder out of a pool.

[Christine Schiefer]

He must have. After another proposed suspect is the caretaker, Chauncey Bliss.

[Em McCorkle]

An eccentric Chauncey Bliss sounds like a caretaker.

[Christine Schiefer]

It sounds like a caretaker and a sim. It's the most incredible name.

[Em McCorkle]

I. And also, I wonder, like, what his first language was, because it might have been Simlish.

[Christine Schiefer]

It. Honestly, I'd be shocked if it wasn't.

[Em McCorkle]

So Chauncey Griggs is born in Connecticut and he. By 14. I don't know if this was like, because he was a pull yourself up by the bootstraps kind of man, or if this was just of the 1830s era or 1840s era, but by 14, he's already working full time. And then he decides, oh, man, I gotta turn my life around. I'm getting old at 14. And he moves to Michigan to go to business school, which this is how the founding fathers were. 18 years old. Yeah.

[Christine Schiefer]

This is crazy.

[Em McCorkle]

How do you go to business school at 14? Because you need A pick me up in your career. What the Sad.

[Christine Schiefer]

Well, it's so sad. You look at some of the pictures and it's like an eight year old working hard labor at the docks back then. And it's like, oh, my God, you grow up by the time you're a toddler, basically. It's so sad.

[Em McCorkle]

I can see why old curmudgeony men are like, like, what do you mean you're eight and you don't have a job?

[Christine Schiefer]

You can't drive. Are you kidding me? Like, I drove a steamship when I was 8. You know, it's to shovel the coal by, by hand.

[Em McCorkle]

I, I, sorry. Allison's creepily stealing candy from the living room and then going into the other room. That was like a little goblin experience.

[Christine Schiefer]

Like a little gremlin.

[Em McCorkle]

No, I feel like, I don't know, I see like, not my grandparents, but my great grandparents, and they're like, I walked uphill both ways, blah, blah. And in my mind I'm like, can a five year old actually. Like, when I'm like, if I had to babysit a 7 year old who like once did hard labor, I look at a 7 year old and I'm like, I, you're not, you can't do that. There's just no way. I can't believe they, I mean, I guess they had to bring money in back then. That's how they had to do it. But I just, I look at a 7 year old who plays like Minecraft or whatever they do nowadays. I don't know. And I'm just like, how, you know, what's worse? Are you responsible for the family?

[Christine Schiefer]

Kids like Leona who just discovered that you can watch people playing Minecraft. Does she have any clue what Minecraft is? No. Does she like to watch people Minecraft? I guess I was like, what are you doing? No. But I think a lot of the reasons those kids were sent to do that kind of labor too, is that they were so small and so they could, like we talked about before, like, they could climb into, like, small parts of boats and, you know.

[Em McCorkle]

Well, they always had like a little kid working on a boat.

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah. On a ship. And they can like, run fast and they're little and I don't know, it's.

[Em McCorkle]

Just very, it's like how dachshunds became really powerful hunting dogs because they could get in all the little holes.

[Christine Schiefer]

Oh, my God. Is that true? That's hilarious.

[Em McCorkle]

I think they were like, they would get inside gopher holes and stuff.

[Christine Schiefer]

I cannot imagine a dachshund If I had a dachshund and a 7 year old in front of me and someone said, which one's better at hunting? I'd be like, the seven year old, probably.

[Em McCorkle]

No, if you saw a seven year old and a dachshund in front of you and then both of them said, turn back around, Grandma, we got this off to work and you just had to live your life based off of a seven year old and a dachshund. You just had to hope that your life was gonna be okay.

[Christine Schiefer]

Why are you. Excuse me, ma'am, why. Excuse me, Grandma, Why are you in the steamboat captain's office? This is. This is our. The seven year old and the dachshund are running this ship. Go back to bed, Grandma.

[Em McCorkle]

I. I can't imagine it. I just like, why would Tommy Pickles tell me that he's in control of the ship?

[Christine Schiefer]

Honestly, there's something comforting about the confidence, though, you know?

[Em McCorkle]

You know what? And maybe that, you know, anyway, I could really fall into a tailspin really quickly about the confidence of children and dogs. And maybe it actually is like generational trauma. I don't know. Okay, so Anyway, he was 14, so he's an old spinster at this point. He's moved to Michigan, which I can't imagine a 14 year old walking across the street without me wondering what's going on.

[Christine Schiefer]

Going to the bus. Yeah, exactly. I know the answer to this, Em, but have you ever wondered what it takes to be a professional skateboarder?

[Em McCorkle]

Yes. No, I don't. Obviously haven't done a skateboard since I was 12.

[Christine Schiefer]

Well, yeah, about back then, you know, if you'd had masterclass, and guess what? Tony Hawk literally teaching a masterclass on how to skateboard.

[Em McCorkle]

The way that I would have told everyone that Tony Hawk was my skateboarding instructor. And then they'd be like, then why are you so bad? Yeah.

[Christine Schiefer]

Oh, my God. No, it's true. For just 10amonth, an annual membership with Masterclass gets you unlimited access to every instructor. And you can access Masterclass on your phone, computer, smart tv, or even an audio mode. I also watched one on relationships with, of course, my favorite relationship expert, Esther Perel, whose podcast I listened to non stop. Oh, and oh my God, R.L. stein did a class on writing for young readers.

[Em McCorkle]

Oh, lovely.

[Christine Schiefer]

I mean, it's just like you can find the coolest, coolest stuff. There's a class from FBI criminal profile John Douglas, which I guess I'll take that tomorrow. You can successfully negotiate any situation with FBI hostage negotiator Chris Voss. Okay, I clearly haven't taken as much advantage of this as I had hoped.

[Em McCorkle]

88 of members feel that Masterclass has made a positive impact on their lives. So right now our listeners get an additional 15% off any annual [e-mail] drink he moves to Michigan on his own. He goes to business school and he later works at a bank again. So now he's extra in control of other people's money as a wee child. And in the 1850s, he thought he could do better business if he moved west, which I don't know if that's a smart business move or if he's just a dumb 14 year old.

[Christine Schiefer]

Say his brain has not developed even remotely. Like his frontal lobe is way not there yet. So I don't know who, if maybe somebody guided him to do that.

[Em McCorkle]

Yeah, like who? Like, did you have more mentors back.

[Christine Schiefer]

Like a guidance counselor? I have no idea.

[Em McCorkle]

I feel like when you're. That when you're. I guess because in my mind I'm like, I guess you're technically capable of that if you've already moved to a whole other state by yourself and you worked and you've been to business school, so maybe you do know what you're doing in the world of business. But also you could be a 14 year old being like, I gotta get away from here, I just gotta move west. And like he was just having an emo phase before. It could be both existed. Maybe it's both. So he moves west. He moves to St. Paul, which I guess is west.

[Christine Schiefer]

Okay, that feels very 14, I'm getting out of this town to Minnesota.

[Em McCorkle]

He was like, I gotta be close just in case I need to go get my dachshund for hunting. And he opens up a general store. One source, I love this, called him a grocery tycoon, which is how I felt at Erewhon, by the way.

[Christine Schiefer]

Which is how I felt when I played Tycoon. Any of the Tycoon CD ROMS at age 14 and thought, is this what it's like to be a hard scrabble 14 year old from the 1830s?

[Em McCorkle]

I'm telling you, when I finish this smoothie list at Erewhon, please call me a grocery tycoon because this is the.

[Christine Schiefer]

Only thing that'll heal me.

[Em McCorkle]

I'll have it made in the shade. But so apparently he. I don't know what he could and couldn't do well by today's standards, but he certainly ran the shit out of that grocery store.

[Christine Schiefer]

Hell yeah.

[Em McCorkle]

And which by the way as a 14 year old and you run a grocery store. I know he's stealing snacks from his own inventory.

[Christine Schiefer]

I know he's allowed to ask them.

[Em McCorkle]

That's true. He could just write those right off, I guess. I don't know. He then becomes a merchant for lumber and coal. Because I guess while he's doing the grocery store thing, he's like, man. Maybe he was a businessman because he.

[Christine Schiefer]

Was like it, because, I mean, a business boy, but. But nonetheless a little baby.

[Em McCorkle]

Yes. At some point I think he was like, well, to get food in and out of this place because of, you know, my grocery store, I should look into like getting more involved in the railroad industry. So then he became merchant for coal and then lumber because he got into like railroad construction, I guess. So that way a train could be built right next to his grocery store. Or that was at least his plan originally. So he became a merchant, which. I hate that word because I. I don't know what that means these days.

[Christine Schiefer]

It's such a vague word. It feels like that word that you would just get on like some car, you know, when you go to like a Titanic exhibit and they're like, here's your little passport.

[Em McCorkle]

You're a merchant.

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah, merchant. Feels like. What does that even mean? Like a merchant of what?

[Em McCorkle]

I feel like everyone was a merchant. It's like the equivalent today of someone saying, like, I'm an entrepreneur. Like, ok, shut up with that.

[Christine Schiefer]

Like, it's just like interesting except like more vague. You know what I mean? Like at least like is a merchant.

[Em McCorkle]

You just. Are you just a salesman?

[Christine Schiefer]

Are you like a coordinator? You know, something where you like, Are.

[Em McCorkle]

You a production manager? I don't know what you do. That doesn't help me. Like, merchant, I think merch. So you're in charge of merchandise. But then again, what does that mean?

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah, I guess he's.

[Em McCorkle]

I mean, this is me right off. Me right off.

[Christine Schiefer]

I'm gonna stop pretending to guess then because I think I'm just gonna keep poking the. And it's not worth it.

[Em McCorkle]

Oh, oh. I'll think about it. Halfway through the show, I'll remember. But on the way to recording tonight.

[Christine Schiefer]

When you start shouting at me, I'll be like, it's not about you, Christine. It's about the merchant thing. Don't take it personally.

[Em McCorkle]

I thought about something earlier where I was like, oh, oh, oh, okay, I remember already. On the way here, I was thinking, I gotta remember. I gotta remember this for the show. So I can tell Christine that it pisses me Right off when this happens because I remembered it right now. You know what I can't fucking stand? You know what grinds my goddamn gears, Christine?

[Christine Schiefer]

You tell me me.

[Em McCorkle]

Is when someone takes too long to say goodbye on the phone. I cannot.

[Christine Schiefer]

I don't get on the phone for this. Among many other reasons I have.

[Em McCorkle]

My mother is a. A criminal in this case, where all she does is say Goodbye. Are you 18? She's actually basically like first degree murderer when it comes to this. Like she will say goodbye 18 times. Like she'll. She'll try it in 18 different ways. I'm like, can you just fucking say goodbye?

[Christine Schiefer]

I'm so, so out of control. Is my mom. I will go, okay, well I gotta pick up Luna. And she'll go, okay, bye. And hang up before I can even like finish my sentence.

[Em McCorkle]

So I respect it.

[Christine Schiefer]

No, it's great. But I totally know what you mean. And this is. That is one of the top five reasons probably why I don't ever get on the phone.

[Em McCorkle]

Honestly, Renata probably has the same pet peeve I do. But I listen to my mom go, well, I've gotta go. Oh my God, by the way, did I tell you this? Okay, well, I want to go. What do doing right now? I'm like, why would you ask that? As you're telling me to buy. Why would you do that?

[Christine Schiefer]

What are you doing?

[Em McCorkle]

It's her favorite line. She'll always. I think she's trying to get me to do the whole like, okay, well I'm gonna go do this now. But like now you've just opened up a whole other conversation. And whatever I say next, you're gonna do a follow up question. Then you're gonna do a Now we're just talking again. Like I'm. Ah.

[Christine Schiefer]

I think honestly, my mom's afraid to know what I'm doing and doesn't care. So she's like, please don't tell me. I'm just gonna hang up. I'm like, I'm gonna go get. Okay, I'm not interested. Bye.

[Em McCorkle]

I've gotten into a habit. Just interrupt her now. It's like, I'm so. I. Sometimes I go back to my teenage years with her and I can hear how rude I am. But also adult me doesn't really care either. I'm just like, you deserve this. Based on how your ex.

[Christine Schiefer]

She is not phased, right?

[Em McCorkle]

I don't think she is because she keeps continuing it.

[Christine Schiefer]

She does.

[Em McCorkle]

She must think I'm the problem. But I'll just interrupt her and go, I'm going now. Bye. Like, I just can't tolerate this. Like, we have wasted an extra 20 minutes of my life. So that's what really pisses me off.

[Christine Schiefer]

Grinds my gears. And what is Jim Harrell say? Tease me right off it.

[Em McCorkle]

It freaking tease. I. Oh, I'm so freaking to freaking teed off.

[Christine Schiefer]

He said. He said, I'm freaking teed off. And we said, you know how. Like, I do. I don't know if you guys.

[Em McCorkle]

I was like, you can't even say the word off.

[Christine Schiefer]

It's really good. I think he said teed off. I think he said teed off.

[Em McCorkle]

Either way was good.

[Christine Schiefer]

We'll rewind the tape, but basically, because it deserves being, like, verbatim. But you know how. I don't know if you guys know this, but I'm known for, like, the claw, which is like, when we're together.

[Em McCorkle]

Christine claw.

[Christine Schiefer]

The Christine claw. I will, like, grab somebody's kind of upper arm, like their elbow area right here. Right.

[Em McCorkle]

I don't know what the deal is, but you like it right here. No, if you can't reach it, you get me right here all the time.

[Christine Schiefer]

Okay. Yeah. It's wherever my. My claw can obtain purchase. And if I. When we. There was like a. A psychic claw between us when that happened, because we both were like, did you just hear that? But we weren't both clock.

[Em McCorkle]

We would talk about it later at dinner.

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah, it was like that, like, virtual claw of like, oh, my God, did you just hear him say, I'm freaking teed off? And the thing was, he was actually really pissed off. And that was so truly the most.

[Em McCorkle]

Midwestern way he could have handled it.

[Christine Schiefer]

And it wasn't on air either. Like, he was just talking to us. It's not like he had to, like, censor himself for the show. He's just a dad, and that's how he talks. And we were like, ah, freaking teed off is the funniest thing.

[Em McCorkle]

I. It was beautiful. Beautiful. Anyway, you know what really teased me off is having to hear someone say goodbye 13 times. And by the way, I know. I'm also. I'm also guilty of this because every time we can't end an episode, we do it.

[Christine Schiefer]

So, I mean, yeah, like, we clearly are the problems here. But that's okay.

[Em McCorkle]

It's okay. When I do it, I can't stand what other people do. No.

[Christine Schiefer]

That's usually how these things go.

[Em McCorkle]

And it pisses me off just as much as not knowing what the word merchant is. And this man's a merchant. Of lumber and coal.

[Christine Schiefer]

Okay. Apparently groceries, mer. Merchandise. Oh, yeah, you're right. It still doesn't make sense.

[Em McCorkle]

He. He works amongst those industries, I guess, and then he ends up having to cancel all of them because Chauncey Grits. He decides that he has to. I don't know if he decided this. He has to go join the Civil War. He joins the Union, thank God. And he climbs the ranks surprisingly fast to me. But maybe that's the norm of a 14 year old.

[Christine Schiefer]

Well, he showed up and said, I'm a lumber merchant. And they were like, well, you seem pret advanced compared to us farm boys.

[Em McCorkle]

I guess at one point in like Vicksburg, he worked alongside like General Grant or something like he was. He seems to have done well in the army and he's discharged by 1863 because of an illness which I feel like that wouldn't get you off these days. I feel like you just get sick and just keep.

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah, but when they said illness back there, then it was probably like several of his limbs fell off, you know, like he's had a bad. He's feeling under the weather. Yeah.

[Em McCorkle]

So he goes back to being a merchant and then he later joins the state legislator and the Minnesota Senate. So like this guy. I don't know if he's. I don't know if this is normal. I can't tell because it's just the 1800.

[Christine Schiefer]

I don't think so. I think it's just one of those where he got on a path and it was like, okay, you're advancing very rapidly. This is your. This is your track. Now.

[Em McCorkle]

He's just one of the.

[Christine Schiefer]

Because I'm sure like a normal farm kid. Like, is it, you know, a merchant of whatever? You know, I'm sure there are plenty of people who are just your average.

[Em McCorkle]

I would like to go back to the 1800s and see how quickly I could climb the ranks of any industry. I think I. I mean, I would need like my phone charger, but I could.

[Christine Schiefer]

You'd probably need like an entire change of. All right. Yeah, we would. Let's be real. Let's just be real.

[Em McCorkle]

I wonder what they would give me instead of propranolol at the apothecary in the 1800s, it would be cocaine. Yeah, for sure.

[Christine Schiefer]

Except that would probably do the opp. And make your heart spin out. Yeah.

[Em McCorkle]

Eventually he gets married. Let's see, he was born in 80. No, he's born in 32. And now we're in 59. So he's 27. Okay. So he Waited long to get married. He married Martha Ann Gallop. And over the years they had five kids. And in the 1880s, they wanted a house in the area, and they built a house on Summit Avenue, which is a big deal. It came to be known as this, like, massive row of Victorian mansions that still stands today.

[Christine Schiefer]

Oh, wow.

[Em McCorkle]

And many notable figures lived on this row. Sinclair Lewis lived on this row. Today, the. It's still known as, like, one of the best preserved strips of Victorian era homes in the country.

[Christine Schiefer]

Ooh.

[Em McCorkle]

And it has been named one of the 10 great streets in the country.

[Christine Schiefer]

Oh, my gosh.

[Em McCorkle]

Which. Can you imagine walking down the street for Christmas lights? Lights.

[Christine Schiefer]

Oh. And Halloween.

[Em McCorkle]

Oh, are you kidding me right now?

[Christine Schiefer]

Are you kidding me?

[Em McCorkle]

Meanwhile, Frank Lloyd Wright called it the worst collection of architecture in the world.

[Christine Schiefer]

He's such a little dick.

[Em McCorkle]

He was like, well, I didn't make.

[Christine Schiefer]

It, so first of all, relax. Just because it's not a bunch of rectangles topped on top of each other with a waterfall coming through it, okay? Like, not everybody's gonna be so extra.

[Em McCorkle]

Not everyone could have a waterfall, especially in the 1880s. Please. So anyway, Summit Avenue to this day is a big thing. You can still go there and walk around.

[Christine Schiefer]

And although I have heard, I. I will give him a little credit that I have watched one of those, you know, those like four hour YouTube videos where you're like, oh, I know nothing about this, but I'm just gonna sit here in awe as I watch four hours of somebody discuss, like, how the lines work as a Disney fast pass, like that kind of thing. And you're like, whoa. So I watched one once about the history of Victorian houses and how they were actually considered the McMansions of their time because they were so gaudy and like, over the top. And so they'd have, you know, turrets that didn't really lead to anything. They'd have, like, chimneys and really, like, nonsensical places. And they were just meant to look really grand and imposing and beautiful. And so people back then thought they were like these monstrosities because they were. They were like, very gauche, very, like new money. And so they were basically the McMansions of their era. And now we look back and think, oh, what a beautiful piece of architecture. You know, which is wild.

[Em McCorkle]

I mean, that's one of my favorite fun facts is that people during the Victorian era thought Victorian homes were ugly.

[Christine Schiefer]

I'm like, just like, so tacky, you.

[Em McCorkle]

Know, I don't know what it is about them now. I think. I think it Helps that a lot of us are really into year round, spooky season. Because it does look like a witch should live there.

[Christine Schiefer]

I think so too.

[Em McCorkle]

But yeah, that's so wild to me that it's just. I mean, I get it too because it sure looked like just rich people just adding things onto buildings and you could use that money somewhere else. I totally get it.

[Christine Schiefer]

Or just like what do you think you're trying to prove? Like why are you putting a chimney there when there's no fireplace or whatever.

[Em McCorkle]

But I, I feel like it felt like then how it feels now when someone gets like a really annoying sports car and flies it down your neighborhood.

[Christine Schiefer]

At two in the morning.

[Em McCorkle]

Yeah, it's like really Shut up.

[Christine Schiefer]

Like you know, you're not going more than 30 miles per hour. It's at Los Angeles, you know.

[Em McCorkle]

And no one is impressed. We're all slow clapping for how embarrassing you look. So maybe that's how they felt about people getting idea. So Chauncey Griggs, he goes to Summit Avenue. He's like, this is going to be the place. And he builds his mansion on Summit avenue at number 476. It is a private residence today. So look from afar. But it is famously known in town as the Griggs mansion. So I'm not like spilling information, but when he had it built, it ended up being four stories, 24 rooms, 10 of which were bedrooms.

[Christine Schiefer]

Holy.

[Em McCorkle]

Which, how many guests are you having at a time?

[Christine Schiefer]

Well, how many kids did they have?

[Em McCorkle]

They had five.

[Christine Schiefer]

Oh, yve. Yeah. And you can put three or four of them in one room at that time.

[Em McCorkle]

Yeah. Back then you weren't. Not everyone got their own one big room. What the nine fireplaces? Fun fact. And it cost. I know you love this part. It cost $35,000 at the time, which is 1.2 million today.

[Christine Schiefer]

Okay.

[Em McCorkle]

And I'll tell you, 1.2 million today could not get you a 24 room house.

[Christine Schiefer]

To build a house. I mean, you know, maybe it's like the area was so kind of not desirable yet. Like maybe that was just not. But it sounds like there were already mansions on there and it was already a desirable spot. I don't know.

[Em McCorkle]

I don't know. And it was in like what would be a major railway.

[Christine Schiefer]

Well, you know what, hang on. He's a merchant of lumber or something. Maybe he got some discounts.

[Em McCorkle]

You're totally right. He did that little five finger discount. I think just swiped some lumber. Yeah, you're right, you're right. They also built a carriage house in the back, which still stands today. Fun fact, the carriage house cost $12,000, which is 400k today. A half a million dollar carriage house.

[Christine Schiefer]

On top of the house. It's like half the price of the whole house.

[Em McCorkle]

Yes. I'm like, how on earth? Like at that point. So that technically, if it's half the size of the house, it could have like 12 bedrooms in it or something.

[Christine Schiefer]

Maybe he'd used up all his goodwill with the lumber folks and they were like, we're done giving you free stuff. You gotta pay for this one.

[Em McCorkle]

Maybe it was supposed to be added onto the real house and he just didn't get enough wood to like connect them. And now they're just two.

[Christine Schiefer]

Sorry the horses don't get. Don't get special treatment.

[Em McCorkle]

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[Christine Schiefer]

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[Em McCorkle]

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[Christine Schiefer]

Yes, in addition to, of course, our book that you can find on there.

[Em McCorkle]

You can find our other book, which is also another one that we also wrote.

[Christine Schiefer]

No, I. I have loved Audible for years. I love Snakes in Suits, which is about psychopaths in the workplace, sociopaths in the workplace. My friend Nicole Bigley, who wrote Looking for Angels, listening to her audiobook as well. There's so many good options and it's the best thing when you're cooking, when you're driving.

[Em McCorkle]

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[Christine Schiefer]

There's more to imagine when you listen. New members can try Audible now, free for 30 days with your first audiobook included. Visit audible.com drink or text drink to 505500 that's audible.com drink or text drink To500.500.

[Em McCorkle]

So despite the luxurious mansion that they built, the Griggs family only lived there for four years. I cannot imagine only living somewhere four years after spending basically 2 million.

[Christine Schiefer]

I have just lived four years in this house and I was just saying to somebody, I finally feel like it's our house. Like, I finally feel like we're starting to make it like our own. I mean, gee, that's, you know, what's.

[Em McCorkle]

So weird is apparently like around five years is the number to get adjusted to a big change. And I remember when I first moved to la, an Uber driver was like, oh, give it five years, you'll feel like a local. And I was like, five years. I'm not gonna be here in five years. I was like, that's a long time to expect me to just wait around. But he was right. After five years, I was like, oh, I feel like I know what I'm doing in la.

[Christine Schiefer]

I agree. It took me about four, and then in this house, it's about four to four and a half. Yeah, that's a good point, Em. I hadn't really thought of that.

[Em McCorkle]

So maybe it just takes half a decade. Yuck.

[Christine Schiefer]

Easy peasy.

[Em McCorkle]

Give a twentieth of your life, you know, just see what he said. Anyway, they only lived there for four years and they ended up moving to Tacoma, Washington, which I guess is west also. Maybe he thought the west thing worked last time. I'm gonna move west again.

[Christine Schiefer]

Maybe he finally got a map and was like, oh, I thought.

[Em McCorkle]

I was like, I only made him halfway.

[Christine Schiefer]

I'm in the middle Midwest. Oops.

[Em McCorkle]

So he moves to Tacoma with his family, and in 1910, he dies.

[Christine Schiefer]

But he, you know, the end and then he dies. It's like such an anticlimactic way to. You're like, telling me everything about his different industries and his. How many rooms his house had, and then he moved and he died.

[Em McCorkle]

Okay, well, so, okay, I'll give. I'll give you a fun fact. Then when he died, it was 1910, the same year he died. Died in Washington. The Griggs mansion caught on fire.

[Christine Schiefer]

And in Washington. Oh, oh, he.

[Em McCorkle]

He died in Tacoma, Washington.

[Christine Schiefer]

So he built a new one in Washington.

[Em McCorkle]

No, no, he dies in Tacoma, Washington. Okay, the year. The same year that he died, while he was in Tacoma, Washington, going back to the Griggs mansion. Oh, oh, in. In St. Paul.

[Christine Schiefer]

Yes.

[Em McCorkle]

The same year he dies, the house he built years ago catches on fire and it nearly totally destroyed the building. It had to be completely restored. And during this time, it also got turned into apartments, or parts of it got turned into apartments. I think the bottom half became apartments in the top part didn't. I don't totally understand. But in 1939, the mansion was donated to the St Paul School and Gallery of Art, and it became an art school. And it became an art school that. Because it had apartments at the bottom now, students and staff could basically live on. Okay, I don't know how big the apartments are because I'd like To know how many staff and students. Like, was there a lottery of whether or not you could live on campus? Right.

[Christine Schiefer]

Because if there are 10 rooms, 10 bedrooms, like, do. Is it, like two per bedroom?

[Em McCorkle]

And were they mass? Because I don't know the square footage either. Maybe those 10 bedrooms could be split up into multiple spaces.

[Christine Schiefer]

Right. Interesting.

[Em McCorkle]

They could have been all studios, you know?

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah.

[Em McCorkle]

Anyway, so staff. And staff students could live there. I don't know the process on that. And they claimed to see and feel weird things throughout the mansion when it was a school. They could feel something lurking over their shoulders when they worked on their art projects. Some of them would literally see a man standing behind their easels while they worked and then dart away. Are you kidding me? Imagine, like, focusing so hard on. On, like, your computer screen that you don't even see what's going around your computer screen. And when you lift your eyes up for a second, a man is fucking standing there and, like, darts off, and.

[Christine Schiefer]

Then he's like, w. Runs away.

[Em McCorkle]

Yeah.

[Christine Schiefer]

Forget it.

[Em McCorkle]

Yeah.

[Christine Schiefer]

It's like, scared. Not you. Jesus.

[Em McCorkle]

Others claim that at night they would be shaken awake while in their beds, and they would see apparitions in their room. One student saw a child floating above their bed.

[Christine Schiefer]

Oh, good.

[Em McCorkle]

And one professor saw an apparition that he originally thought was an intruder. This guy, his name was Dr. Kolb. And when he was staying there, he. He said, I awoke and saw a figure at the foot of my bed. It was a thin figure dressed in black. I remember clearly. It wore a top hat. And then he watched the figure dissolve into the brick wall of his room.

[Christine Schiefer]

Oh, it makes me wonder if it's, like, just the hat man or if it was actually.

[Em McCorkle]

Was he just taking the 1930s version of, like, Benadryl before he went to bed? Oh, my God.

[Christine Schiefer]

Yes. Which is cocaine.

[Em McCorkle]

It's all cocaine. Creepy. Yeah. So I can't imagine, like, having to. You're getting shaken awake by ghosts, seeing them floating above you, and then you have to go to class the next day, where they're now staring over you and looking past your easel and, like, probably judging your art.

[Christine Schiefer]

Oh, for sure. Judging. And. And being, like, the. The art instructor, too. Like, imagine having to be in charge. And then you're like, wait, now I'm scared. Now I don't know what to say.

[Em McCorkle]

Like, I would be like, class of sniffs. I'm so fucking tired. Yeah. I can't imagine. Maybe that's how so few people were able to live there at a time, because people just kept Fleeing, they were like, oh, there's always a vacancy.

[Christine Schiefer]

Oh, this child has kicked me out of my bed again.

[Em McCorkle]

Or like, I'm so scared of the ghosts, I'm gonna leave. And then another unassuming person takes their rent over. I mean, it kind of tries keep switching. So this was two nights. Oh, sorry. He saw the. The Hat man. Maybe two nights after he'd already woken up to seeing flashing lights in his room and feeling ice cold fingers into his forehead.

[Christine Schiefer]

Oh, actually, you know what? That feels kind of nice. Like, I feel like I would like that.

[Em McCorkle]

A migraine?

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah, like, I feel like that would really help meet my sinuses. But I know that's not the idea.

[Em McCorkle]

I'm so sorry. Did you just say zinuses?

[Christine Schiefer]

My sweet little German sinuses?

[Em McCorkle]

I don't believe you.

[Christine Schiefer]

Swear I said sinuses.

[Em McCorkle]

Say September right now.

[Christine Schiefer]

No, don't. You can't put me on the spot like that. It's November. You have like 10 more months before that has to happen again.

[Em McCorkle]

You know what's so sad? Well, maybe it's not sad that we. We have to remember before the Thanksgiving episode to do past the cranberry sauce. That's what I'm gonna say.

[Christine Schiefer]

We'll remember, Eva. And by somebody will remember. It's not me.

[Em McCorkle]

Okay, so, yeah, he wakes up, he sees flashes of light. He feels fingers on his head. And then he wakes up and sees the Hat man two days later.

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah, that's not good.

[Em McCorkle]

Griggs Mansion. Now an art school. It was an art school from. From 39 into the 60s.

[Christine Schiefer]

Oh, okay.

[Em McCorkle]

So a lot of time for people to see ghosts there.

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah.

[Em McCorkle]

And when the school relocated to, I think it became there was another building called the St. Paul Arts and Science Center. I think they relocated over there.

[Christine Schiefer]

Oh.

[Em McCorkle]

Apparently a lot of students and teachers were, like, not upset about it because they were like, this place is so fucking.

[Christine Schiefer]

Please get us out of here with this fucking nouveau riche bullshit. McMansion full of ghosts.

[Em McCorkle]

Although I will say it had to be lovely aesthetically to be be. Imagine an art in a Victorian mansion.

[Christine Schiefer]

Ah, beautiful.

[Em McCorkle]

Beautiful. Stunning. So when the school moved out, the Griggs mansion became a private residence again. And this time to a guy named Carl Wesk. I think that's how you say it. One source literally had the pronunciation and it said Wesk. So fantastic. Carl was a well known occult book publisher. He was in charge of Llewellyn Publishing, which apparently is, quote, the oldest and largest publisher of new age metaphysical, self help and spirituality books in the world.

[Christine Schiefer]

Yes, I know about them, actually.

[Em McCorkle]

Oh, great. Okay. So he was in charge of that publishing.

[Christine Schiefer]

They do a lot of like Wiccan witchcraft and Wiccan stuff.

[Em McCorkle]

Fun fact, one of the things that Llewelyn Publishing is responsible for is Fate magazine, which I have talked about in previous episodes. I forgot all about Fate magazine. And then I looked in my emails and apparently I have been subscribed for a while and I get all our.

[Christine Schiefer]

Mass emails ringing some weird bell. Like Gmail is always doing that thing up top. Like, you haven't opened this for a while, should you unsubscribe? And it never works.

[Em McCorkle]

I looked in my. One of the folders where it doesn't just pop up in your inbox and all of a sudden it all just said Fate magazine updates.

[Christine Schiefer]

Actually that feels very fateful though, doesn't it? Like very faded. Yeah, I was like.

[Em McCorkle]

Well, I read about it and I was like, I feel like I've heard of that before. And then I looked it up on my own phone and I went, I'm.

[Christine Schiefer]

A fucking subscriber driver.

[Em McCorkle]

And fun fact about Fate magazine, Stephen King's mom used to read him articles from Fate magazine, which is what inspired him to write his own stories.

[Christine Schiefer]

I just got a little goose camera. Maybe I should buy that or buy this. Maybe I should subscribe. Or you just forward me the emails and I can read them to Leona.

[Em McCorkle]

Maybe I'd. Maybe we would just share a subscription. Yeah.

[Christine Schiefer]

Whoa, this is cool. Sorry, I just went on there and it looks like Life magazine, but they replaced the word life with.

[Em McCorkle]

With fate. Isn't that so funny?

[Christine Schiefer]

I love this.

[Em McCorkle]

So here's another thing about Carl, because not only was he a pub like the in charge of the biggest occult book publishing company, but he was also, at different times, the Minnesota Vice President for the ACLU and the Minnesota President for the naacp. And this is from a blog called Wild Hunt. And it was like a goodbye obituary kind of letter to him after he passed. But I thought this was like one of the coolest things I'd ever seen in an obituary. So.

[Christine Schiefer]

And this is for this, this guy.

[Em McCorkle]

This guy, the Carl guy who moved in after the building was a school.

[Christine Schiefer]

Gotcha.

[Em McCorkle]

So he ran the publishing company and then apparently he also did this stuff.

[Christine Schiefer]

Okay, okay. As grown ups, it can be hard because we're suddenly expected to, you know, understand and take care of our finances. For example, like, what's a credit score? Help. It's.

[Em McCorkle]

It's hard to be.

[Christine Schiefer]

It's hard to be a grown up. Okay.

[Em McCorkle]

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[Christine Schiefer]

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[Em McCorkle]

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[Christine Schiefer]

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[Em McCorkle]

Open your account in two [e-mail] drink that's chime.com drink Chime feels like progress.

[Christine Schiefer]

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[Em McCorkle]

When he took over Llewellyn, Carl was one of the first to ever produce pagan music recordings on the brand new cassette tape technology. He helped organize a local festival called the First American Aquarian Festival of Astrology and the Occult Sciences, which he later renamed to Gnostica Con.

[Christine Schiefer]

What is that backwards? That feels like.

[Em McCorkle]

He was initiated into the American Celtic tradition witchcraft, helped organize the American Council of Witches and referred Pentagon staff in crafting the updated version of the Witchcraft and Wicca section of the US Army Chaplain's Handbook.

[Christine Schiefer]

That's the thing, apparently. So love this.

[Em McCorkle]

If someone is in the army and has a chaplain's handbook, can you please show us the Witchcraft and Wicca section? Thank you so much. Holy so he was obviously big in a cult, so I can't imagine he just randomly moved into the Griggs mansion just when it had a haunted history.

[Christine Schiefer]

So cool.

[Em McCorkle]

He actually ran the occult publishing company Llewellyn Publishing from this property for many years and I feel like that's very apropos of like I'm going to run an occult book company out of a haunted house.

[Christine Schiefer]

This like a haunted Victorian manor for sure.

[Em McCorkle]

Even in in 1969 when he was living there, he also had reporters come stay Overnight for an article about the mansion's ghostly rumors, which I'll get to in a second. But when he was moving into the house and he started doing renovating, one of the windows kept opening and he was like, oh, man. Like, I'm so annoyed with this. So he literally nailed it shut. And the next morning, the nails were out and the window was white open. Yeah.

[Christine Schiefer]

Oh, boy.

[Em McCorkle]

On other occasions, he would hear footsteps throughout the house. He would hear doors opening and closing on their own. And another time, Carl was on the stairs and felt himself literally get thrown into the air.

[Christine Schiefer]

Oh.

[Em McCorkle]

One source said that one night while Carl was out, a neighbor called the police because he heard wailing from inside the mansion. And he was like, you got to get over there. Something's going on. The cops get in there and literally find a man crouching in the corner. Corner who is not Carl.

[Christine Schiefer]

Oh, no.

[Em McCorkle]

So I guess he broke in. I don't know.

[Christine Schiefer]

I don't know what the.

[Em McCorkle]

I'm confused because this one source did not give, like, more explanatory information.

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah, it feels like you should explain that a little more because, like, what was the wailing from?

[Em McCorkle]

Yeah, well, was it him? Because, see, here's the thing. They found this guy crouching in the corner. He was shivering. And at the same time that they find him somewhere else in the house, they hear howling, which they never found a source for. They didn't know what to do. They looked around the house. They found nothing else suspicious. But they brought the man, who I'm assuming broke into the house. They brought the man to the cop car, and he just kept saying, I've seen death, I've seen.

[Christine Schiefer]

Whoa. Maybe. Maybe Carl had booby trapped the house for introduction intruders, like I did, you know, and it's like just. It's just like something swoops down, like a haunted house attraction.

[Em McCorkle]

You know what? Let's go with that, because I honestly have no other.

[Christine Schiefer]

Otherwise does not make any sense.

[Em McCorkle]

I mean, maybe the guy was, like, kind of a stalker and he was, like, really into, like, occult books and, like, wanted to go to the publishing company and, like, broken. Or maybe it was a guy who just heard the Griggs mansion is haunted and tried to get in there and.

[Christine Schiefer]

Like, got spooked or something.

[Em McCorkle]

Spooked?

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah.

[Em McCorkle]

I don't know. But. So that's just another weird thing.

[Christine Schiefer]

Was Carl, like, home?

[Em McCorkle]

No, he, like, was out for the night and his neighbor called cuz he heard the neighbor.

[Christine Schiefer]

I see. Okay, so. So he wasn't the one wailing like Carl wasn't even there. Okay, that's weird.

[Em McCorkle]

Or howling. I mean, imagine coming home and hearing that. Someone broke in. They heard howling. He was freaking out and said he saw death in your house.

[Christine Schiefer]

Well. And then they couldn't find the source of the howling. And you're like, well, is it still here? Like, is it under my bed? I mean, Jesus.

[Em McCorkle]

Well, another time, Carl saw an apparition of a man standing in the library doorway. And apparently they just stared at each other.

[Christine Schiefer]

Good.

[Em McCorkle]

He said. Neither of us moved. There was no sound. We just kept standing there, face to face. He wore a dark suit. His face was long and thin. His hair was bushy and white. He seemed to have an expression of surprise when he saw me and then faded away.

[Christine Schiefer]

That is so cool.

[Em McCorkle]

Which I love when the ghosts seem surprised.

[Christine Schiefer]

I do, too. I do too.

[Em McCorkle]

Because it's like, oh, my God, we're both freaking out right now.

[Christine Schiefer]

Like, wait a minute. You can see me and I can see you. Holy shit.

[Em McCorkle]

Um, but that. So that could have also been the hat man, but not wearing his hat, because it sounded like the same thin man in a suit with white hair.

[Christine Schiefer]

Oh, so then maybe it is. Yeah, maybe it is Chauncey Bliss.

[Em McCorkle]

It could be Chauncey. They also think it might be, like, one of the old caretakers, because apparently he really liked the library and that's where he saw him at least once.

[Christine Schiefer]

Oh, okay.

[Em McCorkle]

It's also. So, yeah, it's thought that when Dr. Kolb, who felt the cold fingers on his forehead. Forehead. And he saw the hat man.

[Christine Schiefer]

Right.

[Em McCorkle]

We are thinking maybe it's the same guy.

[Christine Schiefer]

Okay.

[Em McCorkle]

And they both saw. They both saw the same ghost. So anyway, 1969. This is when the journalists from the St. Paul Pioneer Press stay overnight for an article about the hauntings. And they brought along with them a psychic medium named Roma Harris. And as soon as Roma got there, Roma said the house had a heaviness about it, and he felt a shadowy presence of a teenager named Amy. Amy. New character on the scene. And we don't know what Amy has to do with the property, but apparently she liked to play piano in the house when she was there. So maybe she was a student at some point or.

[Christine Schiefer]

What about. Did he have any kids named Amy?

[Em McCorkle]

I don't know if he had any kids named Amy, but it could have been one of his kids because, like.

[Christine Schiefer]

To play the piano. Like, maybe she lived there for a few years. I don't know.

[Em McCorkle]

But also, if you're an art student, maybe there was, like, a random piano Somewhere that's true. Roma also sensed a Civil War soldier wearing blue, which would make sense because Chauncey. Oh, yes, would have done that. So maybe he's still checking on the mansion. And Roma also sensed that someone at some point was shoved and fell on the property. But it was an accident.

[Christine Schiefer]

Oh, but it was an accident.

[Em McCorkle]

Oops. I was like, wait, a way to cover for whoever did that back then.

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah. They didn't mean to shove you down the fucking stairs.

[Em McCorkle]

Okay, so the reporters, they had the medium come with them for the first half of the investigation, and Roma ended up leaving after being like, this is what I sense. Good luck for the night. And the reporters were left there by themselves and they were some punk ass bitches because they heard heavy footsteps and creaking and that's it. And they fucking fled the house.

[Christine Schiefer]

Wait, what? Oh, I thought you were gonna say they were like.

[Em McCorkle]

Oh, like jerks or something.

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah. Oh, so they just were little babies?

[Em McCorkle]

Yeah, they just. I was like, are you? And I better?

[Christine Schiefer]

I mean, that can't be right.

[Em McCorkle]

But they literally just heard footsteps and creaking. And at one point, one of them, like, felt a presence nearby and they were like, I'm out. Wow. Never came back. It was quoted in their article saying, we all agreed on one thing. There is no prize on earth that could get us to spend a single night alone in that great stone house I love. They're so quick to scared. They were real.

[Christine Schiefer]

I mean, people lived there and dealt with this. But okay, yeah, sure.

[Em McCorkle]

Imagine if they saw that window with the nails fly open, you know, Imagine.

[Christine Schiefer]

If they saw the child floating above them in bed.

[Em McCorkle]

Imagine if they had fingers pressed into their head.

[Christine Schiefer]

Actually, that might be nice. Again, I, I, I beg of these ghosts, please give me some sinus relief.

[Em McCorkle]

After Carl eventually moved out, the mansion switched between many hands. And we don't know how many, we don't know why they left, but we that weirdly, anyone who's ever moved in has very quickly moved out. So maybe they're all just scared of footsteps. Maybe something scarier is happening.

[Christine Schiefer]

Maybe there's just like that energy, you know, it sounds like the psychic medium was like, oh, the vibes are not good. Maybe like after moving in you're like, I don't feel good here, you know?

[Em McCorkle]

Yeah, yeah. In the early 2000s, it was on the market for a very long time and it dropped quite a significant amount, price wise, because they were just desperate to sell it. And it eventually sold, I think in 2012, and it's now a private Residence.

[Christine Schiefer]

That was also the recession too.

[Em McCorkle]

Oh, okay, so yeah, that might have had something to do with it then.

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah.

[Em McCorkle]

As last reported, the mansion still has original stained glass wood paneling and that carriage house out in the back. So. Okay, the other. There's not too many, but other popular ghosts here. The first one that every source mentioned was that in 1915 there was a maid who worked here and she was. Because she always fucking is. Was jilted by her lover, of course, and she apparently hanged herself on the fourth floor landing. And because of that, now the fourth floor is said to be the most active spot where people hear a lot of footsteps.

[Christine Schiefer]

Oh, Lord.

[Em McCorkle]

Maybe they freaked out because they knew that story and it confirmed the rumor and that was enough for them. And people also claim to see a white mist near the landing. They sense overwhelming doom. People get sick. People hear crying in empty rooms on the fourth floor. And people will also hear like, dragging footsteps that like, more ominous. When I told you that there was a caretaker near the library, that maybe this is the hat man that everyone's seeing, people think it could have been the caretaker or the gardener. His name was Charles Wade, and he allegedly would spend hours and hours in the library, which, like, sounds like you're not doing your job, Charles.

[Christine Schiefer]

And he's dusting the books.

[Em McCorkle]

Well, he's now seen here and he's heard flipping through the book pages. You can hear Paige is always turning in there.

[Christine Schiefer]

Oh, that's cool.

[Em McCorkle]

And of course there's the white haired man in the suit and the top hat. So I. Again, I. I can't tell if the hat man and Charles the caretaker are the same person, but maybe not. Because if you're a caretaker, gardener, I don't know why you would be in a suit and a top hat.

[Christine Schiefer]

I mean, maybe back then that was like you're a standard, not a gardener. I guess, maybe. Well, you know what, Maybe it's like one of those situations where he's like the. The manager of the gardening staff or something.

[Em McCorkle]

Or the garden merchant.

[Christine Schiefer]

Staff. Garden merchant. Like, maybe he's like the. The. The home caretaker. You know, like the top guy and he like, directs and delegates. I don't.

[Em McCorkle]

Yeah, maybe. I don't know, was a thing like the one in charge of all the other servants. Yeah, yeah, some.

[Christine Schiefer]

Something like that.

[Em McCorkle]

People also see, like I said, shadows darting around. They feel something brushing by them. They hear doors opening and closing. They'll hear a lot of coughing and empty rooms. Items will fly off the shelves by themselves. Light bulbs have shattered on their own Yikes. And one source said that a paper bag jumped off of a shelf and then jumped all around the floor by itself.

[Christine Schiefer]

What?

[Em McCorkle]

Like, just kept like scooting itself? I guess. I don't know. That feels weird.

[Christine Schiefer]

That feels like a cat got into it.

[Em McCorkle]

Yeah.

[Christine Schiefer]

You know how cats run around with paper bags on their heads?

[Em McCorkle]

Yeah. Just like charge at it out of nowhere.

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah, exactly.

[Em McCorkle]

Anyway, there's up to like seven or eight spirits in total at this house that we know of. And whether it has anything to do with the spirits. I already said this, but nobody has ever stayed at the Griggs mansion for more than a few years. So that adds to the spooky factor. And the Griggs mansion is known to be one of the most haunted houses in Minnesota and the most haunted house in St. Paul.

[Christine Schiefer]

Wow. I wonder the people who live there like are in town. I mean, if you guys have any insight.

[Em McCorkle]

Way in. Yeah.

[Christine Schiefer]

Weigh in. I would love to hear if people have like visited or do they do tours or is it. Oh, he's private residence. He said. Okay.

[Em McCorkle]

Yeah, but maybe if you. If you maybe do a little sightseeing during the Christmas light stuff. You bump some bows. Maybe some bows. I'm sure if you. We already missed our shot now, but there's no way that they don't expect people on Halloween to approach them and at least ask like to be curious.

[Christine Schiefer]

For sure. For sure.

[Em McCorkle]

Yeah.

[Christine Schiefer]

Good story, M. I like that one a lot. Hey, I don't know about you, but my skeleton just got stolen off my porch and I'm ready for Simply Safe to expand over to my garage.

[Em McCorkle]

I was gonna say for the second time. You had.

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah, for the second time. And guess what? I didn't have any Simply Safe over there, only on my house. So now I'm like, maybe I gotta expand the price perimeter.

[Em McCorkle]

Right now you can get 60 off a new Simply Safe security system. It's their best deal of the year. Simply Safe is the home security that we trust. We love the peace of mind it brings knowing that our homes are protected 24. 7. And our listeners can get 60 off today just by visiting simplisafe.com drink.

[Christine Schiefer]

It's very expansive, expansive stuff because the old school systems only take action once somebody is already inside the perimeter or inside your phone. And that is too frickin late. I don't want them inside yet. Okay. Simply Saves active guard. Outdoor production changes the game by preventing crime before it even happens.

[Em McCorkle]

If someone's lurking around or acting suspiciously, those agents see them in real time. Talk to them directly, set off your spotlights, and even call the police before they've had a chance to break in.

[Christine Schiefer]

Simplisafe is offering our listeners exclusive early access to their Black Friday sale this week. Only you can get 60% off any new system with a select professional monitoring plan. Head to simplisafe.com/drink. That's simply safe. S I m, p, l I safe.com drink.

[Em McCorkle]

There's no safe like simply safe.

[Christine Schiefer]

Okay. Very, very nice. I wonder if someday we're gonna have stories of, like, McMansions that are super haunted and, like, probably, you know, grandiose for the. For the future times.

[Em McCorkle]

Well, you know what's so weird is I feel like you don't ever hear these. You don't hear yet, at least about McMansions that are haunted, even though back then it seems like only the mansions were haunted, and now it's only the old, tiny, little creaky cottages that are haunted. And I don't know why. Architecturally, it has the. The expectation has changed.

[Christine Schiefer]

I bet you someone's written a dissertation about that.

[Em McCorkle]

I'm sure there's some, Right? Yeah. Because, yeah, you're right that there are very few McMansions that have a storyline like this. But back then, you never hear about, like, the small house. But then I wonder if it's because, like, you weren't a popular enough merchant that no one cared about your haunted house. I don't know. Or maybe because a lot of the houses don't stand anymore unless they're an old Victorian landmark.

[Christine Schiefer]

That's a good point. Or unless they had some, like, historic story that can kind of be pinned to the ghost. Ghosts, like. Yeah, some famous backstory. Wow. Okay. That was good. M. I am going to tell you a story today that I have been planning on doing for once again, like, years.

[Em McCorkle]

Okay. Christine, what are you gonna eat later today?

[Christine Schiefer]

Thank you for asking. I don't know yet.

[Em McCorkle]

M. Do you have a craving? What are your cravings these days?

[Christine Schiefer]

You know, that Jimmy John's we had was really good with the cucumber. That was really damn good.

[Em McCorkle]

Love me a JJ's.

[Christine Schiefer]

I'm kind of feeling like some Indian.

[Em McCorkle]

Oh, lovely.

[Christine Schiefer]

What are you feeling like?

[Em McCorkle]

Oh, man, Christine, I don't even know. I saw a. It's another one of those things where I don't want to cook it. I just want it to appear. But I saw someone make a white sauce lasagna, which really got me going, because I do not like a red sauce, though.

[Christine Schiefer]

Is that like an Alfredo situation or.

[Em McCorkle]

Like, yeah, Like a chicken Alfredo lasagna. And I was like, mamma mia.

[Christine Schiefer]

Like, tummy hurts just thinking about it.

[Em McCorkle]

I got that next to that and a slab of the steak that Maggie just sent us. Oh.

[Christine Schiefer]

I was gonna say. Say, you got that steak ready to go? Yeah. Good job. Wow.

[Em McCorkle]

But sometimes if. If I'm in a cooking mood in the future, usually when I'm in a cooking mood, it's some sort of pasta thing. And I think that lasagna is coming up next.

[Christine Schiefer]

I was gonna say, and I love, like, a baked pasta situation. Oh.

[Em McCorkle]

So I will tell you, I make the best Mac and cheese, and it's a baked Mac and cheese.

[Christine Schiefer]

I don't. I don't. I only like baked Mac and cheese these days. I've started upping my standards. I'm like, I just like baked Mac and cheese. That's my. My new thing.

[Em McCorkle]

The next time I'm at your house, please, Leona and I will make you a baked Mac and cheese. It's very easy. It's kid friendly.

[Christine Schiefer]

Oh, my God. She would love that. She loves Mac and cheese. Okay, so I have a story for you today that I've been hoping to do for years, many years. It's a very famous one. I don't know if you'll have heard of it, but you may have heard of the name. This is the kidnapping of JC Lee Dugard. And JC is spelled J, A, Y, C, E, E. Okay.

[Em McCorkle]

No, I haven't heard it.

[Christine Schiefer]

Okay, so It's a doozy. JC Lee Dugard was born in California in 1980. And the reason I thought, maybe, by the way, that you'd heard about it.

[Em McCorkle]

Is because it was sort of our age range.

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah, she's like 10 years older than us, and so it's kind of similar age range. Her mother, Terry, was estranged from JC's biological father. So JC spent her early childhood living alone with her mother, or occasionally with her. Her mother's family, Terry's family. And whenever JC asked about her father, Terry would tell her that sadly, he was not interested in being in her life, which is just like, how do you even have that conversation? That's rough. And he had actively chosen to not know his daughter, so she just had to learn that from a young age. Yeah, But JC did her best to understand her father's absence. But, you know, of course, it hurt to be out and about, especially like, in the 80s. It's like a less. I feel like just it's an earlier time, whatever that may mean. It's an earlier time. So she's seeing all these families with dads and she's feeling hurt and a little bit sad. When she's seven, her mother marries a man named Carl, another Carl Probin. And unfortunately, JC did not really get along well with her stepdad, which is a bummer because it looked like she was really looking for that kind of father figure.

[Em McCorkle]

Yeah, that's. That sucks. You finally get a dad and it's still not 10 out of 10.

[Christine Schiefer]

And you know why? Because he wasn't really interested in getting to know her or like, damn, she.

[Em McCorkle]

Can'T catch a break with these.

[Christine Schiefer]

It's just like not fair. Why would you not want to get to know an interesting 11 year old child? Like, I bet they've, they're full of stuff to know. Like, I would love to just know an 11 year old child and be like, tell me about your. I don't know, I just don't understand people. People are so mean. Anyway, apparently he only ever got involved with her if he was criticizing her. That's nice. And she often felt like she could do nothing right in his eyes. For example, he said she ate like a slob. He would send her to the bathroom with her dinner so that she could eat in the front of the mirror and see how disgusting she was.

[Em McCorkle]

Holy. Wow, you were really bearing the lead there. And how terrible he is.

[Christine Schiefer]

He's very quickly becomes like a neglectful, abusive monster.

[Em McCorkle]

Jesus.

[Christine Schiefer]

He also imposed a household rule to brush teeth after every meal and if JC forgot, she'd be grounded. So she's just in this like not happy situation. Once JC's friend called to invite her to see a movie and Carl answered the phone and accepted the invitation on JC's behalf without telling her. And so when her, like he was.

[Em McCorkle]

Trying to kick her out of the house or something.

[Christine Schiefer]

Well, so her friend arrived with her dad to pick JC up and JC was like, what are you doing here? And she asked Carl if she could go because he was the one who said like, yeah, sure, come over. And he said, well, you didn't brush your teeth a few hours ago, so actually no.

[Em McCorkle]

Oh. So it was just to embarrass her.

[Christine Schiefer]

To like mortify her and make her feel ashamed in front of her friend and her friend's parents. Wow, what a winner. So she of course started to cry. She offered to brush her teeth right away, but her stepfather was like, no, this is your punishment. God, it's pissing me off. This is tea and me right off.

[Em McCorkle]

So to right now, you have no idea.

[Christine Schiefer]

So JC's friend left without her and JC just had to sit there at home alone and feel, feel just unloved. And so in 1990, Terry, JC's mom, had another daughter named Shayna. And this became JC's baby sister. After a break in at their apartment, the family moved to a small town called Meers, just south of South Lake Tahoe, California. And Terry and Carl felt this would be a safer place to raise their daughters. But of course, Carl was only interested in raising Shayna, his biological daughter. He was very indulgent and affectionate with the baby, which also I'm like. Even though he was like affectionate with her. I'm sorry, if you're not like a good person, there's not no way you're going to be a good parent to this child either. You know what I mean?

[Em McCorkle]

Like, it seems like 1% better because you're 1% less right to your own.

[Christine Schiefer]

Well, it's like you're treating her better. Yeah, yeah, exactly like you're treating her better. But it still doesn't make you a good parent because you're clearly at the core of bad parent.

[Em McCorkle]

Right?

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah. And so anyway, of course this made Daisy feel even more lonely because now she's watching this father figure who doesn't care about her or who's cruel to her be like affectionate with this baby. And she doesn't even have her own father figure, you know, it's just really hard. So if Carl didn't see JC as his daughter, she felt like completely out of place. Like, who. Now that her mom had another baby, it's like, who? Where do I fit in? You know? And it was Carl one day who insisted, you know what, you're old enough to walk to school, walk to the bus stop. And so from then on, she was responsible for her own mornings getting ready for school. By the way, she's 11. Okay. She's like 10, 11. And he's like, you're, you're old enough. Like basically you're, well, you know, 14 year olds.

[Em McCorkle]

But yeah, we have the same joke.

[Christine Schiefer]

We're sending you off to Minneapolis for St. Paul for business school.

[Em McCorkle]

You can be in charge of the lumber and the coal and the grocer.

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah.

[Em McCorkle]

And you can go to business school in Detroit. Yeah.

[Christine Schiefer]

But you cannot go to the movies with your friend.

[Em McCorkle]

No, have. And also, you didn't brush your teeth.

[Christine Schiefer]

That's so sad. Oh boy, oh boy. It's a little bit, a little bit, a little bit triggering for me. I'll just leave it at that. Okay. So Terry would leave for work early because that her job, her hours were just early in the morning and that was before JC would even wake up and Carl would do his own thing and kind of just let JC be responsible for herself. So it was business as usual. It's June 10, 1991, which, by the way, how are you not out of school yet on June 10th? That feels a little bit late, but whatever. June 10th, 1991, when 11 year old JC got herself out of bed, got dressed, and she felt a little nauseated, a little sick to her stomach that morning. But she, she knew better than to ask Carl for permission to stay home from school. Sounds like he was not going to be the most empathetic person to talk to.

[Em McCorkle]

I was going to embarrass her again.

[Christine Schiefer]

He was probably going to drive her there and like announce to everybody that she had diarrhea or something. Like, it sounds like he just wants to shame the shit out of her in front of all her friends. And she definitely didn't want to spend the day at home with him, right? So it's like, ooh. She didn't really have much of a choice. So she ignored her feeling her like, sick to the stomach feeling. And it was almost summer break, so she was, know what, we're nearing the end. I'll get through this. And that summer, she and her best friend had made plans to work with horses at a ranch. And she was trying to think of a way to get her parents on board to like approve of this plan. But she was also a very shy child. She struggled to kind of make connections with other kids, make connections with new friends. And when her family moved, Terry had signed her up for Girl Scouts. And JC really struggled with this, as did I. She did not feel comfortable selling cookies door to door, door. And so she would just kind of pair up with another girl who did all the talking. But in her own way, JC could also be very determined. If she really cared about something, she could absolutely dig her heels in when it mattered. And to the point that her mom, Terry actually called her the bull because she could be so stubborn. If she really wanted to work at a ranch that summer, she just needed to like, find a way to pitch this to her parents. So she was thinking about this. She, she was planning how on earth she was going to approach this and try to convince them. There was also this upcoming class trip to a water park, which she was very excited about.

[Em McCorkle]

Damn, two things to pitch at once, man.

[Christine Schiefer]

She's like, I better play my cards.

[Em McCorkle]

Right, I better brush my teeth. Backwards.

[Christine Schiefer]

God damn teeth. JC Made breakfast. She packed her own school lunch as usual. She looked into the nursery to check on her little sister, who was still asleep, which is so sweet. Sweet. And JC Loved Shayna. But she shut the door quietly to avoid waking the baby up. Let her be. Let her sleep. And she left the house and made her way alone to the nearby school bus stop along the route Carl designated, by the way, because he had to designate a path. Because, of course, you're responsible, you can figure your own way, but you have to do it the way that I say. It's like, okay.

[Em McCorkle]

Oh, my God. Pick a struggle, dude.

[Christine Schiefer]

Like, pick a lane. I know, it's outrageous.

[Em McCorkle]

Right off.

[Christine Schiefer]

Tn. Right off. And so he had designated this specific. Sorry, my mother just texted me, went potty. Okay. This is like my whole texting chain. Everybody in the world is telling me these things nowadays, and it's great news. So she left the house, made her way alone to the nearby bus stop along the route that Carl designated, because to be fair, the route was easier for drivers to see her, so, you know, she'd be okay.

[Em McCorkle]

So maybe there was a real reason there.

[Christine Schiefer]

There was some concern there at least. So JC Used to be afraid of walking on her own, which makes it extra hard. Harsh that her stepdad was like, you're old enough. Do it by yourself. And she was afraid. Yeah, like, you know, most kids are like, please let me go walk down the street to my friend's house. And she's like, I don't want to go alone. And he's like, you have to. So before they had moved, apparently she had had the experience of men harassing her from a car while she walked places, which. Like, who has it? Yeah, like, what child hasn't?

[Em McCorkle]

Wish I could say that. That's not normal.

[Christine Schiefer]

Not normal. Right. I know. So she had had that experience, and she was. And they had even called her over and she had to hide in a bush until she left. Until they left. And she was so terrified. I mean, at this point, she's 11, and this was a couple years ago. So, like, she was really little and she was really scared. So after that, her parents sometimes picked her up from school. But JC in the new town felt a lot safer. She could ride her bicycle wherever she wanted. She had friends nearby that she could play with without any concern. There was. This is really, really sweet. A neighborhood dog sometimes escorted her hill, like, would just walk.

[Em McCorkle]

Damn. Even the dog's better than your parents. Oh, my God.

[Christine Schiefer]

I know.

[Em McCorkle]

Well, that's also because they are working with 7 year olds all the time, hunting and whatever they're doing.

[Christine Schiefer]

Oh, right, right, right. They have a working relationship already. I'm sure.

[Em McCorkle]

That is precious, though. Even the dog could sense, like, I.

[Christine Schiefer]

Know, like, she needs a companion, you know, or loneliness. And so he, the dog would occasionally escort her up the hill to the bus stop. And of course, that made her more confident. This morning, however, he was not. Not there. So Carl was outside when JC left. It seemed like an unremarkable day, but when he glanced up the street to watch as she, like, approached at the bus stop. And to be fair, again, he can see the bus stop. So it's like, at least he knows he can say, like, okay, she got on the bus.

[Em McCorkle]

Right.

[Christine Schiefer]

I mean, part of me thinks maybe that was just to make sure she's not like, skipping school, but whatever. I don't know.

[Em McCorkle]

I totally agree with you.

[Christine Schiefer]

Right. It's kind of like double sided. But when he glanced up the street to watch her make it to the bus stop, he saw a vehicle slow down alongside JC she didn't notice the vehicle until it had already stopped next to her. And a man rolled down the window to ask for directions. But before JC could even speak, the man reached out the window and struck JC With a stun gun.

[Em McCorkle]

Holy.

[Christine Schiefer]

She just collapsed. Her whole body just shut down. She collapsed. She tried to scoot into the bushes behind her, which is like, what she did the last time she was hiding from those people.

[Em McCorkle]

Was the dog with her this time? Like, did the dog try to fight them off?

[Christine Schiefer]

Okay, dog did not come this time. But she was completely disoriented. She felt like her arms, you know, her arms just went completely numb and disoriented. Out of her control. She. She, like, reached around. She could only feel, like pine cones. Like there was just nothing that she could do to save herself. She heard two strangers, voices. She was lifted into the vehicle and covered up with a thick blanket. And Carl, meanwhile, he didn't see the stun gun, but he heard J.C. scream. He watched as she was dragged into the vehicle, kicking and screaming. So he jumped on a bicycle and gave chase uphill.

[Em McCorkle]

Wow.

[Christine Schiefer]

And the abductors quickly sped out of sight. So Carl, like, just missed them. He rode back down to the house, shouting at his neighbors to call 911. And on the scene, Carl told the police that two people abducted J.C. a man and a woman. And he had seen both of these people in the car. So he was able to give an exact description of the vehicle's year, color, make and model.

[Em McCorkle]

Okay.

[Christine Schiefer]

Several witnesses also saw this because there were several classmates waiting for the bus.

[Em McCorkle]

So this is like.

[Christine Schiefer]

This has, like, an audience, this whole thing.

[Em McCorkle]

Wow. I didn't even think about other children at the bus stop. I thought it was just her. So this feels like. It feels like a premeditated. Like a targeted thing.

[Christine Schiefer]

I don't know. It just is. It's just so shocking. Like, broad daylight, you know, I feel like these things don't usually happen like this, but. Yeah, so basically, all these classmates saw it. They saw J.C. getting dragged away. They saw the people taking her. But of course, like, because it's still dark, like, relatively dark, it's early morning, and it's chaotic, and no one really knows what's going on, so nobody catches the license plate. And, of course, a bunch of kids, you know, you can't expect them to, like, know what to do.

[Em McCorkle]

It's most like that where you want an stepdad because he would know the make, model, and color of a car.

[Christine Schiefer]

Literally, on the phone, you can hear the 901 call, and he's like, it's a gray Honda model, whatever. Like, you can hear it, like, because he clearly knew right away, which is like, okay, thank. Thank you for paying attention one time. Yeah. So it's just. And this is the 90s, you know, so all that 911 existed, all this. So we. We still have recordings of the calls, that kind of thing. In any case, the crime triggered an immediate major search effort to recover jc, whose daytime abduction in front of multiple witnesses was obviously shocking to the whole community. The FBI got involved in boots on the ground investigative efforts. They set up traffic stops because they were looking at vehicles that match the description to see if there was anything in the trunk. Volunteers helped Terry the mom hang missing posters for JC all over town. They sent tens of thousands to businesses all over the country to make sure, you know, JC's face was everywhere, even outside of state lines, in case they took her out of the state. And they were hoping maybe somebody would notice her somewhere far away and the FBI would, you know, know how to bring her back to them. So, meanwhile, JC's classmates began wearing T shirts printed with JC's photo and information. They tied pink ribbons to fences in town. Matched, which matched a pink ribbon that Terry had tied to a tree near her own home. And it was pink because that was JC's favorite color. And, of course, the ribbons were, you know, the classic symbol for wishing for a safe return. This case was featured on America's Most Wanted. And after that, hundreds of tips Came in after the episode aired. But unfortunately, of course, they were all dead ends. So Carl and Terry made numerous media appearances, imploring the public to come forward with any information that might lead to JC's eloquence, location. JC's biological father, you remember, the one who wanted nothing to do with her. Yeah. Ken Slayton and her stepdad Carl, were early suspects. Good, because you got to check them out. Yeah. It was considered they may have for some reason, arranged the abduction, like, together. Like they wanted to get.

[Em McCorkle]

They were in cahoots.

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah, that was like, the angle the. The investigators took at first. But they quickly determined that these two men had never even met or. Nor spoken. So it was like that was a dead end. They also both passed polygraph tests, and Ken was ruled out as a slave suspect. Carl, on the other hand, remained under serious scrutiny, especially because he was like the one who called 911, and he had a kind of rocky relationship with her. So he kind of stayed on the radar for a little bit longer. Photojournalist Ivor Markman responded to the abduction scene just after the crime took place. And he actually really closely followed the case and documented it in tons of photos, which wasn't necessarily necessarily, like, normal for that time period. And they. You can look at these photos now, which is really cool. And it shows Terry and Carl in. Because now, I mean, cops are wearing, like, body cam. So, like, you get. The whole scene is being videotaped, but. Yeah, or videotaped. You know what I mean? The new technology, tape cassettes.

[Em McCorkle]

Yes.

[Christine Schiefer]

And if you look at this photographer's, this photojournalist work, it shows Terry and Carl in black and white, speaking to reporters, leading community search efforts. There's like this whole kind of photo journalistic kind of history to this as well. So in one photo that this journalist took, Terry is hugging JC's best friend. So it's. It's really sweet. It's like the mom and JC's best friend, like, holding each other, and they're just very powerful, very moving photos. And Ivor later recalled an officer suggesting that perhaps Carl had made sexual advances toward his stepdaughter and then murdered her when she threatened to tell Terry. So this journalist is just there for photos, and he's like, picking up some wild scoops and rumors and.

[Em McCorkle]

Yeah, well, up until you said that the, the whole event was like, had an audience because other children were there. I was like, this is so easy for this guy to be saying, I can see it from the window. What's happening.

[Christine Schiefer]

100%.

[Em McCorkle]

So thank you for adding that, because otherwise, in my mind right now, I'd be like, it was obviously.

[Christine Schiefer]

And even then they were. Even though there was this group, they were saying, like, maybe he hired someone. Like, they still thought he could responsible. So, like, you definitely have the same guy.

[Em McCorkle]

But I feel like if he wanted to hire someone, he would have very. He would have just not looked out the window that day and just like, good luck he wasn't there because somebody.

[Christine Schiefer]

Else would have witnessed. Yeah, that's true. Because if there were already witnesses there, he wouldn't have needed to be the one to call 911. That's true. Yeah. So. And, like, why would you hire two people anyway? It doesn't matter. But point is, they were thinking, like, maybe, like, Carl had made some sexual advances. Obviously, that was an extreme allegation, and they had no evidence of this. What whatsoever. And there's these kind of rumors, like, are very dangerous to just be saying aloud in front of, like, people who aren't involved or aren't law enforcement. Like, it just feels like, why would you be saying that loud enough for the photo journalist to hear? But whatever. And this among police and the public, like, scrutiny slowly got to Carl and his marriage as well. He and Terry really struggled to support each other, even though so far they'd had, like, a pretty solid marriage, despite, like, leaving J.C. out of it. They did eventually separate. And each year following the abduction, Terry. It's just so sad. Every May, she became just inconsolable because June 10th was the day of the abduction. So she. Yeah, it was like the second May started. She felt, like, the dread and panic every single year. And Carl just was not equipped to process that with her. And, you know, once they separated, she was kind of having to do that on her own. And Carl actually later said in an interview, interview, it wasn't between us. We've never had a fight. We're best of friends right now. Just losing J.C. changed Terry's life. Like, it. There was just no more, I guess, room for their marriage anymore. And honestly, listen, I don't know that this is true, but I imagine being the mom, there must be some guilt of, like, seeing your husband treating her this way and seeing. Seeing him treat the baby so much more nicely. And like, they're. I mean, I. I would think you'd have noticed that as the mom. Right? And so, like, I would hope so.

[Em McCorkle]

But also maybe, like, you just, like, don't want to see it, and so you never did. But I'm reflecting on every Moment last.

[Christine Schiefer]

Right. It must be like, at least coming back a little bit or subconsciously or something like, oh, we did not treat her right. But yeah, in any case, I'm not blaming her at all. I'm just saying I'm wondering if that's where her head was at as well.

[Em McCorkle]

I would spiral for sure.

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah. It would be incredibly, incredibly difficult. So that's what happened between the two of them. And Carl basically said he allowed himself a really, really, really small, if implausible comfort. And that was the hope that somehow JC was kidnapped by a loving couple who simply wanted a daughter of their own. And I think that a lot of parents who are going through this have, at least from what I've seen, have kind of told themselves that that's possible because it's like the last threat of justify the.

[Em McCorkle]

The least scary thing that could happen.

[Christine Schiefer]

Exactly, exactly. Just to have some hope that, like, maybe she's okay, even just alive, but maybe, like, happy and healthy.

[Em McCorkle]

Maybe she's being loved, taken care of.

[Christine Schiefer]

Yes, exactly. And that. That was obviously a very unlikely possibility. And stranger abductions are very rare and considered more dangerous than abductions by family members or friends. They are more likely to end badly. Still, Carl dared to hope that maybe she was alive somewhere in the world and maybe even doing well. And meanwhile, Terry continued to keep the case alive in the search efforts for her daughter. She organized a group to oversee events in JC's name, which would keep hope alive for JC's return. It would, like, pretty continuously trigger new media interest in the case. So they were very intentional about that. And in the years following the abduction, they held everything from candlelight vigils to music benefits, marches, just to fundraise and keep JC stories on people's mind. So JC's family, meanwhile, canvassed through multiple states. Volunteers continued to pass out hundreds of thousands of flyers. And the public was very much aware of JC's disappearance, but nobody had answers. So time after time, new tips and leads would come, would come in, but investigators just got nowhere with them. Although Carl gave a perfect description of the vehicle. Finally, the stepdad is good for something. He, like you said, recogniz Jamaican model of the Honda or whatever it was.

[Em McCorkle]

The only way better is if he had to, like, identify a train, you know, imagine, imagine.

[Christine Schiefer]

Or like a type of a boat or something. Yeah, so he, you know, gave a perfect description. Good for you. Clapping for you, Carl. And actually, a tip came in describing that same exact vehicle with a young girl sleeping in the backseat. They were just not able to find the car. So they're like. They think that there are some leads out there. They're just not able to kind of solidify anything. There was, of course, some doubt cast on Carl's account, as usual. Even if he wasn't involved in JC's disappearance, like, maybe he was just not as good of a car stepdad as he thought. Maybe he'd misidentified the vehicle, and then that would have meant they were wasting their time, you know, chasing down this one exact make and model. Maybe he even misidentified the abductors. Maybe it was two men, not a man and a woman. Like, they were just thinking, oh, God, how are we even supposed to begin figuring out, like, unraveling this? Some people said it was bizarre that Carl had jumped on a bike to try and chase the vehicle. But I also feel like that would be your gut. Right? Right.

[Em McCorkle]

Like, I mean, I don't know, like, if. If he didn't have a car and you needed to get there, I mean, I would. I would panic. And.

[Christine Schiefer]

Well, people were saying he should have stayed and called 91 1. But, like, you're.

[Em McCorkle]

No, I would have. I would have panicked. And your gut is to.

[Christine Schiefer]

I think your gut would. My gut would be to chase after. Even if it's.

[Em McCorkle]

I mean, if you saw someone, like, stun gun Leona when you run towards her, towards it.

[Christine Schiefer]

Right. Like, and I know. I know rationally, somewhere, maybe in my mind it'd be like, but he was screaming to the neighbors, call 91 1. You know? So, like, I just don't think it's that outrageous. And also been able to spot the license plate if he got close enough or something, you know, I mean, I don't think it's fair to say, like, that was an unreasonable or sketchy thing to do. Right. But people claim that that was suspicious. And I just feel like this was all, like, muddying the case, you know, because spoiler alert, Carl had nothing to do with it at the end of the day. So it's like, okay, yeah, it's like, this is just muddying the waters. Even though Carl was a shitty guy. Right. And a shitty stepdad.

[Em McCorkle]

You can be a shitty guy and not a killer.

[Christine Schiefer]

Right? Exactly. Yeah, exactly. So Carl remained very adamant about what he had seen. He's like, one thing I can do for my stepdaughter is identify the make and model of this car. Please do not doubt me. Like, I know what I saw. And his account never wavered, so he.

[Em McCorkle]

Should just get, like, shown his stepdad license.

[Christine Schiefer]

Don't question a stepdad. So when cases involving the abductions and murders of other girls JC's age were solved, people would start questioning, like, oh, maybe, maybe the killers had also killed jc. And maybe now we'll get some answers and they'll confess to what they did and the family will get closure. But that just didn't happen. So Terry was haunted by her last interaction with JC as well, which I think added, of course, to her turmoil. JC had asked her mom to wake her up the next morning before she left for work. So I mean morning, more like middle of the night. JC had asked her mom to. To wake her up and give her a hug and kiss goodbye before leaving for work. And JC made her mom promise not to forget. I'm gonna cry. This is so bad.

[Em McCorkle]

What?

[Christine Schiefer]

She made her mom promise not to forget. But the next morning, Terry was running late and decided she didn't have time, so she didn't go and wake her up and give her a kiss and say goodbye.

[Em McCorkle]

So that's what you meant earlier about, like thinking back on all the, like the what ifs or whatever? Like, because I would have also if when you're mid spiral, of course you're gonna think about the last interaction you had and all the things you did wrong and.

[Christine Schiefer]

Exactly. And to think like, she said, wake me up, give me a hug and kiss goodbye, and you're like, I don't have time. And then you never see her again. You know, think about that. Like, that would be just absolutely heart rending. But then also my OCD gets involved and is like, well now, now every time I don't have time to kiss my daughter goodbye, I'm gonna be like, is something terrible gonna happen?

[Em McCorkle]

Oh, every time I hug my mom goodbye, I think, did I hug her hard enough just in case? Yeah, you just that if, if that's an OCD feature, Lock me up.

[Christine Schiefer]

You know, I will come to my prison. I have.

[Em McCorkle]

It's called my mind.

[Christine Schiefer]

It's called my mind and my house. And it's well stocked, so don't worry, there's room for plenty of us. Okay, Maybe we could just move into that 24 room McMansion.

[Em McCorkle]

Honestly, if prison is a 24 room Victorian mansion up on a hill of a row of perfectly kept preserved Victorian mansions.

[Christine Schiefer]

Lock me up again. Okay, let's see. So JC had asked her mom to wake her. She said, I don't have time and didn't do it. And then the next morning is when she was abducted. So she had broken her promise and left without saying Goodbye to JC and now she may never have the chance. When she needed to talk to her daughter, Terry would sit outside and speak to the moon.

[Em McCorkle]

God, that's so sad. Little Orphan Annie. Oh, my God.

[Christine Schiefer]

Hearing her talk about it, she and JC Used to sit out and look at the moon together. That was just something they did regularly. And they would.

[Em McCorkle]

Oh, God.

[Christine Schiefer]

I know. So the way they described it was like they would argue or compare or debate, I guess, the qualities of the different moons. And so they would debate if the crescent moon was better or the full moon was better. And JC Always said the full moon, and her mom always said the crescent moon. And so they just had this kind of, like, playful banter about it. And so anyway, her mom would sit outside when she was feeling like, connecting with her daughter and would just talk to the moon and wish that she was there. It's just so sad.

[Em McCorkle]

That's like a. Like, right out of, like, a Disney movie or something, or. I know that's, like, in the worst way possible, but it's just, like, so heartbreaking.

[Christine Schiefer]

It feels so heartbreaking. Like out of a movie or something.

[Em McCorkle]

Yeah, an old Disney movie where everything was always miserable.

[Christine Schiefer]

Right. Where everybody. Everything was just racist, misogynist, and also, like, so inappropriate for children because it was traumatizing. Like, you get it. Yeah. Anyway. Yeah, so that. That. That's kind of what. What she would do to cope. But what she couldn't know and didn't know is that over 150 miles away in Antioch, California, JC was alive. Was also looking up at the moon, talking to her mom.

[Em McCorkle]

So it was a Disney movie all along. Are you kidding me?

[Christine Schiefer]

Sure was. Oh, it would be 18 years before they would see each other again. Again. And JC would have to survive the unthinkable to make it home to her family. And that is the end of part one.

[Em McCorkle]

You with these part ones and twos. I'm sorry.

[Christine Schiefer]

This one's just such a big case. Like, there was. It was going to be four more hours to get to the rest.

[Em McCorkle]

Oh, my God. Christine.

[Christine Schiefer]

But, like, Saoirse, very, very good on the. On the. On the cliffhanger. Thank you. I love a cliffhanger.

[Em McCorkle]

Okay, well, she's a lot of.

[Christine Schiefer]

I love a cliffhanger when I get to say the cliffhanger, not when anyone else does.

[Em McCorkle]

Okay, well, dang, good job. Okay, well, now I gotta wait all week.

[Christine Schiefer]

I know. Except we're recording tomorrow, so.

[Em McCorkle]

Well, you have to wait all week.

[Christine Schiefer]

Wait all week. You get to know tomorrow.

[Em McCorkle]

What are you doing until tomorrow? When I get to hear the rest of it.

[Christine Schiefer]

Great question. I think that nap really zapped me of, like, my sense of reality. So everything, you know, when you sleep and, like, time feels warped because you're like, wait, it's afternoon now, not morning. I feel like I'm kind of lost as to, like, what I'm supposed to be doing today, but I think I might. Em, this is. This is kind of shocking. So sit down, everyone. I think I might buckle.

[Em McCorkle]

Hang on.

[Christine Schiefer]

Just, like, read or hang out or, like, like. No, I probably won't. My therapist told me I have to do that. My therapist told me I have to spend more time just not doing stuff. Just, like, sitting or watching a show or being on couch rot.

[Em McCorkle]

Like I told you last time.

[Christine Schiefer]

You did tell me that.

[Em McCorkle]

And can you confirm for the audience that last time I told you you should bed rot, couch rot. It worked.

[Christine Schiefer]

Oh, my God, you're right. I did. I texted you after that. You're 100% right.

[Em McCorkle]

You texted me a thank you.

[Christine Schiefer]

I did text you a thank you. I forgot about that. That was so. It was like a ball in to my soul, really.

[Em McCorkle]

A bomb.

[Christine Schiefer]

Just like this nap was. I think I'm trying to fix myself slowly but surely. So what I might do today, Em, is I might draw some new stickers for my little shop, you know, because I've been drawing more on my iPad and just, like, watch. Watch a show or something. Watch.

[Em McCorkle]

You know what people would get a kick out of if you let Leona draw something.

[Christine Schiefer]

Okay. That would be funny. That would be very funny. And you got her some great gifts when we were in.

[Em McCorkle]

Oh, yeah. Did she open them?

[Christine Schiefer]

She. I have multiple videos to send you. She lost her mind. And the Pete the Cat one, we spent about 45 minutes last night delaying bedtime because she wanted to keep doing it. Yeah, you've really. You've really watched the game.

[Em McCorkle]

We went to when we had a book signing. We went to the bookstore afterwards to go shopping for ourselves. And I got Leona a Pete the Cat activity book. I got her a Spidey activity book. I got her a.

[Christine Schiefer]

Okay, the Spidey one is like a movie projector onto your wall.

[Em McCorkle]

Yeah.

[Christine Schiefer]

So she was like, it's Gabby. Like, it's. It's Ghost Spider. You know, Green Goblin is named Gabby in the show. And so they're like.

[Em McCorkle]

I got her two others. I don't remember what the books.

[Christine Schiefer]

You got her a frozen gel pen. And she doesn't understand the pens because they're not. Like, she holds, like, this and she's like, these don't work.

[Em McCorkle]

And they were all activity books that came with a thing to use in the activity. And what was the fourth one? Pete the cat. It really doesn't matter. I was just curious. Am I okay? What the hell did I get her?

[Christine Schiefer]

I mean, I just opened it.

[Em McCorkle]

What else does she like?

[Christine Schiefer]

I thought it was those three.

[Em McCorkle]

And then what was the characters?

[Christine Schiefer]

Oh, Eva's right. Eva knows. Of course. It was the paw patrol sticker book. Puzzle book. And by the way, m. I need. Thank you, Eva. I need you to understand Em. She's done almost every puz puzzle. There's like 40 of them in there. She's done like almost all of them already.

[Em McCorkle]

Are you serious?

[Christine Schiefer]

I had to.

[Em McCorkle]

I literally just got it for her like yesterday.

[Christine Schiefer]

I know. No, literally, as we're recording this, it's like 48 hours ago. I. She almost did the whole book. I have to. I went on Amazon because we're going to Thanksgiving in Connecticut and I'm like, I need activity stuff for her. Yeah. So I went and bought a bunch of just like sticker puzzle. It's like color by sticker sort of is what they're called, I think.

[Em McCorkle]

Yeah.

[Christine Schiefer]

And it has.

[Em McCorkle]

I saw they have them at Target. Target too, homie.

[Christine Schiefer]

Okay, great. Because I need one. This is apparently her new passion in life.

[Em McCorkle]

No, I literally. After the election, which. Okay. Hello. Now we all know what happens at the end of the election.

[Christine Schiefer]

I know. Remember when we were being so coy?

[Em McCorkle]

I. And I got to Dallas early to like go like enjoy Dallas. And then I was so bummed that I just went to Target and bought like a bunch of coloring and sensory activities.

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah. Because you were at the. Sorry. In Dallas for the election. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Em McCorkle]

And that's where I found out about color by sticker, which I also did. And it is.

[Christine Schiefer]

I do love those quite a. And I have. I have those like grown up ones that I've done for years and it never occurred to me they had kids ones. And I was like, oh, wow, she loves it. Anyway, sorry, I forget why I was ranting about that, but basically I think I'm just gonna chill and color and draw and. Well, because today, Wednesdays are Oma's days. So she's not even going to be home home till like 8pM wow.

[Em McCorkle]

Well, if you ever need someone to babysit, I'm right here. I'm right on the phone. I don't know what to tell you.

[Christine Schiefer]

Please. I'll just put her in the room with you on FaceTime.

[Em McCorkle]

Great.

[Christine Schiefer]

Okay.

[Em McCorkle]

And that's why we drink.