E411 A Chef Boyardee Vape Situation and a Sheepless Shephard

Summary

Podcast Summary: And That's Why We Drink – Episode E411: A Chef Boyardee Vape Situation and a Sheepless Shephard

Release Date: December 22, 2024

Hosts: Christine Schiefer and Em Schulz

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I. A Chef Boyardee Vape Situation

In the early segment of episode E411, Christine and Em delve into their humorous yet relatable struggles with vape devices. Em introduces the "Vape Situation" by sharing a personal anecdote:

Em [01:37]: "I drank because I thought ahead and before we recorded, I got me a little smoothie. And by a little, I mean two big ones."

Christine quickly transitions the conversation to their experiences with vape sticks rolling away, likening the persistent misplacement to a playful chaos reminiscent of a Chef Boyardee toy:

Christine [15:02]: "I lift all my blankets looking for it, because it rolled away."

Em echoes this sentiment, humorously comparing the vape stick's tendency to roam free to a Chef Boyardee relationship:

Em [15:11]: "I feel like you and that vape stick have, like, a Chef Boyardee relationship where it's just gonna roll down the hill into your house if you ever lose." (15:11)

This segment highlights the hosts' ability to find humor in everyday mishaps, setting a lighthearted tone for the episode.

II. The Sheepless Shephard: The Legend of Hans Trapp

Transitioning seamlessly, Em announces the main feature of the episode—a deep dive into a chilling Christmas legend:

Em [18:24]: "This is our Christmas episode." (18:24)

The hosts introduce Hans Trapp, a folkloric figure rooted in medieval German lore. Em elaborates on Hans Trapp’s backstory, presenting him as a deranged figure with dark intentions:

Em [26:00]: "Here's the story of Hans Trapp, who is a Christmas character." (26:00)

Christine adds layers to the legend, discussing Hans Trapp’s conflict with the Church and his eventual transformation into a malevolent entity:

Christine [33:06]: "And he pissing everyone off. It's like, I'm gonna just go piss off anyone who can make any rule they want." (33:06)

The conversation delves into the supernatural aspects of Hans Trapp, comparing him to other dark Christmas figures like Krampus. They explore various versions of his story, including his motivations, actions, and the divine intervention that ultimately leads to his downfall:

Em [38:04]: "And then he became a cannibal scarecrow." (38:04)

Christine [57:17]: "He now is like sort of the Leonardo DiCaprio. Like the catch me if you can." (57:17)

Through animated dialogue, the hosts weave a captivating narrative around Hans Trapp, blending historical elements with modern interpretations. They discuss how his legend serves as a cautionary tale during the festive season, emphasizing themes of good versus evil and the consequences of defying authority.

III. True Crime Segment: The Michelle Martinko Cold Case

In a compelling true crime segment, Em introduces the cold case of Michelle Martinko, offering listeners a gripping narrative that intertwines with the episode's themes of mystery and the supernatural:

Em [71:33]: "I brought the goods this time." (71:33)

Background and Disappearance

Michelle Martinko, born in 1961 in Cedar Rapids, Iowa, was a charismatic 18-year-old with a promising future. On December 19, 1979, after attending a high school choir banquet, Michelle went to Westdale Mall for Christmas shopping and to pick up a winter coat her mother had placed on layaway. Her disappearance sparked immediate concern:

Christine [82:35]: "She was 18. And, you know, when you're, like, 18, and you finally maybe have, like, a job or a little bit of cash, and you're like, I can buy Christmas presents for people." (82:35)

The Investigation

Early in the investigation, suspicion fell on two primary individuals:

1. Kurt Thomas: A friend who had seen Michelle at the mall the night of her disappearance.
2. Andy Seidel: Michelle's abusive ex-boyfriend, whose obsessive behavior post-breakup made him a prime suspect.

Despite initial suspicions, both were eventually exonerated:

Christine [95:31]: "And Andy. They said he didn't know her." (95:31)

Breakthrough with DNA Evidence

Decades later, advancements in DNA technology provided a breakthrough. In 2018, using genetic genealogy techniques akin to those that solved the Golden State Killer case, investigators re-examined evidence from Michelle's car and clothing. This led to the identification and conviction of Jerry Burns, a long-overlooked individual connected to the crime scene.

Em [101:05]: "Oh my God." (101:05)

Resolution and Aftermath

Jerry Burns was convicted in 2020, bringing closure to a case that had haunted Michelle's family for 41 years. Despite being a person of interest for years, the lack of physical evidence initially hindered the investigation. The eventual conviction underscored the importance of technological advancements in solving cold cases.

Em [95:50]: "I don't think that was him. Which is like, I have nothing to go on." (95:50)

Impact on Michelle’s Family:

The resolution of the case provided a sense of closure for Michelle's family, although it remained a complex and emotionally taxing ordeal:

Christine [102:03]: "But Michelle's family believes that Jerry was the killer." (102:03)

Em [114:06]: "It's my financial wellness, which feels more important than ever." (114:06)

Reflection:

Throughout the segment, Christine and Em reflect on the emotional toll of cold cases and the relentless pursuit of justice, highlighting the interplay between human perseverance and technological progress.

IV. Interwoven Paranormal Experiences

Throughout the episode, Christine shares personal paranormal experiences that tie back into the overarching themes of mystery and the unknown:

Christine [05:49]: "I've got it handled. Go back to bed." (05:49)

Christine [44:23]: "Do you ever talk to Harry out loud? No. Maybe once or twice ever, but not really." (44:23)

These anecdotes serve to enrich the narrative, blending true crime with paranormal storytelling, and providing a multifaceted listening experience.

V. Conclusion

Episode E411 of "And That's Why We Drink" masterfully intertwines humor, folklore, and true crime, offering listeners an engaging and thought-provoking journey. From the lighthearted "Vape Situation" to the eerie legend of Hans Trapp and the gripping resolution of the Michelle Martinko cold case, Christine and Em deliver a comprehensive exploration of themes that resonate deeply with their audience.

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Notable Quotes:

• Em [18:24]: "This is our Christmas episode."
• Em [26:00]: "Here's the story of Hans Trapp, who is a Christmas character."
• Christine [57:17]: "He now is like sort of the Leonardo DiCaprio. Like the catch me if you can."
• Em [71:33]: "I brought the goods this time."

This episode exemplifies the podcast's unique blend of chilling tales and real-life mysteries, all shared over a comforting glass of wine or a nostalgic milkshake. Whether you’re a fan of true crime, the paranormal, or simply enjoy the hosts' dynamic chemistry, E411 delivers a memorable experience that underscores why listeners keep coming back—because the world's a scary place, and that's why we drink.

Transcript

[Christine]

This Christmas, or should I say Noel? Give the gift that truly keeps on giving. And that is a lifetime membership to Rosetta Stone. Yes, lifetime membership. Rosetta Stone is the most trusted language learning program available on desktop or as an app. And it truly immerses you in the language you want to learn. So I've been practicing my French and I really, really love the app. Leona was sitting next to me and every time I would pronounce something, it would tell me how well I pronounced it. Not just like ding, you got it right, but it was like, like a kind of a circle where it would tell you how close you are to the, to the actual pronunciation. And I thought that was so cool because that's something I'm really insecure about when I speak languages is getting the pronunciation right. So I love Rosetta Stone. I've been really into it, trying to get everything up to snuff. Do you need a gift idea or a last minute gift? Give your family and friends the gift of language. 50% off. All 25 languages for a lifetime and no shipping fees. Give the gift that keeps on giving. Don't put off learning that language. There's no better time than right now to get started today. And that's why we drink. Listeners can get Rosetta Stone's lifetime membership for 50% off. Visit www.rosettastone.com drink. That's 50% off. Unlimited access to 25 language courses for the rest of your Life. Redeem your 50% off at www.rosettastone.com DrinkToday for yourself or as a gift that keeps giving. You know that feeling when you're at Ross and you find the best gifts for way less. Like brand name sweaters, the coolest kids toys, and plush dog beds. Get that feeling with every gift and save 20 to 60% off other retailers prices at Ross. Yes, for less. I think it's o. I think we can all use our imaginations.

[Em]

Well, I drank because I thought ahead and before we recorded, I got me a little smoothie. And by a little, I mean two big ones.

[Christine]

So. Yes.

[Em]

Where.

[Christine]

Where were we? Where were we sourcing these? The ttsc.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

Well, I. So I always called it trosmo. But in, in Fredericksburg, my hometown smoothie place was Tropical Smoothie Cafe.

[Christine]

Yeah, well, I didn't know that existed until I met you and Eva and Apparen. Apparently there was one in five minutes from my house doordash and you guys said, let's get Tropical Smoothie Cafe. And I said, what the hell is that?

[Em]

Also Nobody says the cafe part is tropical smoothie. Just saying this.

[Christine]

Well, obviously, this is all very new to me.

[Em]

I know. I'm just for. For the normies when they hear you. That's so you can fit in.

[Christine]

Oh, understood. Okay. Well, when I was in high school, my first date ever was to a smoothie king. So that was more. More our smoothie speed, I think. But I do. Yeah, I appreciate. I can appreciate a tro. What is it?

[Em]

Tro. It's a tropical smoothie. But I say trust just to be an. Okay. Allison's go to, I think was an Orange Julius. Never grew up with those.

[Christine]

That sounds delicious. And it does feel very Allison, and it does feel very South Carolina.

[Em]

But no, I've always been a loyalist for tropical smoothie. To this day, even in la, like the queen of smoothies. I have not found a smoothie I like as much as you did.

[Christine]

Order that $78 erewhon, like, hemp thing.

[Em]

That was for basic day. That was like, for an event.

[Christine]

That was a special occasion.

[Em]

But on my. On my every day, especially in college, I lived above a tropical smoothie. And.

[Christine]

Until they evicted you for. For squatting.

[Em]

For graduating, actually.

[Christine]

But same difference.

[Em]

I say I was evicted.

[Christine]

You showed back up, but they were like, you're out of here. Please, you've already moved on anyway.

[Em]

If you go to cnu, the tropical smoothie on campus, I lived right above that.

[Christine]

And we can pay homage to M's. We can do a pilgrimage.

[Em]

Yeah. And I would go downstairs, figured out.

[Christine]

What a pilgrim is.

[Em]

Do you know what a pilgrimage is?

[Christine]

Well, no, but I assume they're related somehow.

[Em]

Certainly in sound. Yeah. So anyway, I'm very excited. I got two of them. And get this. Despite living above one, despite going to a tropical smoothie, it feels like every week Since I was 14, this week I finally figured out what my smoothie is. Now that I live on the other side of the country, away from.

[Christine]

Wait, wait, so you never had one there that you were like, that's it. That's my go to.

[Em]

I would always try to find the perfect wow.

[Christine]

Because with every other place you order from em, you have like a thing right away. So I'm really surprised. What? So you finally found it after all these many years? Your white whale? What is it?

[Em]

I finally got her. Except she's my blue whale. Because this is the blueberry bliss.

[Christine]

Oh, interesting.

[Em]

And it's usually just blueberries, strawberries, bananas, but I.

[Christine]

Of course you had to change it. Of course you did.

[Em]

Of course. Are you kidding me? So I subbed out the banana for mango, so now it's blueberry, strawberry, mango. Add extra strawberries.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Em]

And it didn't seem to change anything, but in one of them, I added kiwi. That was also lovely.

[Christine]

Oh. Because you have multiple. So that sounds good.

[Em]

Double strawberries, blueberry, mango, kiwi.

[Christine]

That sounds good. I would prefer the banana, too, because I feel like it makes sense. Smoothie have a nice consistency, but if that's not your jam, I think strawberry and blueberry and mango. That's a good combo.

[Em]

I think the mangoes are frozen, so they kind of have banana consistency.

[Christine]

Okay, that works. Yeah.

[Em]

This one. Finally. I always have something to complain about with a smoothie, and this is the first one. I don't have anything to complain about.

[Christine]

I'm really. I think we're all. I think we can pack up and go home.

[Em]

Okay. That's why I drink. Why do you drink?

[Christine]

I'm so happy for you. I'm still here with my empty bottle of wine and my empty bottle of body armor. And I've not replenished any of my beverages. I also found this. This is a container of wood glue. So I have that.

[Em]

Oh. What do you do with that?

[Christine]

I think I smell it.

[Em]

Or.

[Christine]

Well, I was trying to repair my. My bird statue, and I think it worked. Yeah, it worked.

[Em]

It's beautiful.

[Christine]

Thank you.

[Em]

Wait, that's not a bird. Hang on.

[Christine]

No, remember, it's a morning dove. It goes ooh, ooh.

[Em]

That's right.

[Christine]

So why do I drink? I have so many reasons that, like. Let me count the ways. I will say there's some elevated ghosty stuff happening in the house.

[Em]

I know. You tell me right now.

[Christine]

It's been a while, so I've been on a journey, as always. Well, actually, first of all, my new thing. I have a new hobby, and it's.

[Em]

Oh, for God. Fuck it. Okay, let me scratch the other one off the list.

[Christine]

That's more important. And it's about embroidery. And I'm having such a good time, and I bought a lot of supplies.

[Em]

Will you take a day to appreciate the last hobby? No.

[Christine]

And then, of course, I decided yesterday I should hand make everyone's Christmas gifts. Like, with what time and energy and livelihood? I don't have five minutes to my name, and I'm like, I'm gonna hand make everyone a stocking.

[Em]

Like it's part of the illness.

[Christine]

It's an illness. You're right. It's a illness.

[Em]

It's called adhd. It is quite an illness for the ages.

[Christine]

A Jared Kushner obsession that apparently I've just, like, really skewed my brain from any other.

[Em]

That is a side effect of the productive hobby.

[Christine]

Yeah, it's just my brain goes in all the wrong directions, but, yeah, so I. I decided to start embroidering. But also, you know, I'm still cricketing and cross stitching and needle pointing and. Oh, I also thought maybe I should buy some of those silicone mats where you can do kind of like stamp. Like, where you. You draw a picture and then you stamp it on paper. And then. Anyway, anyway, I'm gonna rewind all that because that's really not relevant right now. But I drink because there's some more ghosty stuff happening. I feel like that's probably more what people are here to talk about, and I am realizing that because I am doing so much of my own little soul venturing in that. My friend Nicole, we were on her podcast a little while back, and she and I met up and, like, spent hours talking. And she's a psychic medium, and she helped me talk through a lot of stuff and a lot of weird dreams I've been having. And ever since then, I'm like, man, I just keep hearing more stuff and seeing more stuff, and it's like, things just seem more like voices. Yeah. Or not even voices. Like, outwardly, just, like, kind of in my head. Like, I can almost feel like I know or like I see things out of the corner of my eye a lot more often now. And it's gotten to the point where the other night, I actually had Blaze for the first time, I think, in this house. Get up and get the baseball bat.

[Em]

Oh, what were you hearing?

[Christine]

Just somebody walking up and down the stairs. And I was like, there is somebody on the stairs. Which, I don't know if anyone recalls, but when I moved in here the first time I went to LA to visit you during COVID or, like, you know, during one of the breaks where we thought we were all safe. And I flew over for a visit, and Blaze called me, like, hysterical, basically, in the middle of the night and said, there's someone in the house. Well, anyway, this is what happened the other night. And I'm laying there, and I swear to God, and I'm like, please, I'm gonna lift my head. Please tell me that one of the cats is not in here. Of course, all three of them are in the bed, and Moonshine is up with his, like, hackles raised. And look, I. I was like, this is not happening right now. So I was thoroughly convinced there was an actual person. Like, I went through the doorbell cameras. I was trying to figure out somebod, so I sent Blaze out.

[Em]

Was Blaze, by the way, when you were hearing the sounds, was he saying, this is just what I hear all the time.

[Christine]

He was out of. He was like middle of the night, so he was dead asleep, so he didn't hear it. So I woke him up to go look and then there was nothing there. And then of course, like, while he was still awake, I heard nothing. And then, you know, half an hour later, I'm trying to fall asleep and I'm like, there it is again. And so, I don't know, maybe it was like, oh, I live in an old ass house and it's getting cold. You know, all the usual, like, haunted house stuff you tell yourself. Like, oh, well, it's just, you know, But I'm telling you, man, I don't know. There's something a little more lively in this house the last few months. And no more printer action. But I did unplug it, so that could be part of the. Part of that no more. Things have, as far as I know, gone missing. But my house is such a mess that I probably wouldn't notice if they did.

[Em]

The fact that you don't have a security cam in every room at this point with sound at all times. And like, I would. The way that I think I should.

[Christine]

Make like a nervous center.

[Em]

Yes.

[Christine]

Monitor them.

[Em]

Your studio. Yes.

[Christine]

Oh, okay. I was like, where would I even. That's the problem is, like, since I live here, I'm like, what, what would I even be looking at? Like, I guess I could sit up here.

[Em]

How about you just have a. A live wire always sent over to me. And I'll just be your nervous.

[Christine]

Oh, you can just feed. I'll just feed it to you. Okay.

[Em]

And I'll just text you in the middle of the night and go. Not to freak you out, but Leona's head spun around.

[Christine]

I've got it handled. Go back to bed.

[Em]

The chairs are stack themselves. Wake up.

[Christine]

Yeah, don't worry, I'll tell them to put them back by morning.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

So, you know, it's just a weird time and I.

[Em]

Do you feel anything like you're being watched more or is that just paranoia?

[Christine]

Maybe it's not like I feel like I'm being watched, honestly. And it never feels negative, so that's good. I've been very intentional about being like, this is my space. Don't come near me. You know, in my own circle. Not like in a fearful way, but just in a very, like, boundary setting way. So I feel fine. Like, I'm not worried. Leona hasn't seen anything or said anything weird.

[Em]

She hasn't spoken backwards yet.

[Christine]

No. Well, you know what? Maybe she has, because sometimes she makes a lot of sounds and we're like, what are you even saying? And maybe if we played it backwards, we'd finally find the meaning of life. But I talked to Nicole and Nicole went to Leona's birthday party and she. Oh, by the way, Nicole's podcast is called A Psychic Story. And it's so good because I've like, binged the whole thing. Every week she interviews, like a different psychic medium or healer or someone in the space and they talk.

[Em]

And she's lovely.

[Christine]

And she's lovely. Yes. And she. The show itself was, Is great too, because you can, like, hear different people's, like, processes and how it works in their own brain. So you hear like dozens of different psychic mediums talk about, like, their own method and their. How. What it's like for them. And so it's really a helpful tool. Um, but anyway, so I met. She came to Leona's birthday party and when we met up a few weeks later, she was like, oh, Leona is a character. And I was like, I know, but I'm always surprised. She doesn't, like, say anything about, you know, like, I mean, and I don't provoke her or anything, but she never really seems to, like, have an interest in, you know, whatever, anything, anything kind of metaphysical. And then she goes, oh. The way I see it for her is that she has almost blinders on right now, like a horse, where it's like, let's just like, go forward. And she's like, but don't worry, they'll come down within the next clip a couple years and she'll start talking. And I was like, ah. So I don't know, we'll see what happens.

[Em]

It makes sense that she would need blinders on just to literally physically grow.

[Christine]

Just to go through. Right. That's what I thought too. I was like, that actually makes so much sense. We probably all have that, you know, because you're like, I just need to get through life right now.

[Em]

So I think she's also brand new to earth, so I think exactly. Probably just gotta dip her toe in.

[Christine]

She's gotta figure this out. She's climbing Wobbly Mountain. She doesn't have time for all this other nonsense.

[Em]

She's. If I take my blinders off, I'm going to. I'm going to start thinking about those other lives that are behind me.

[Christine]

Oh, man, I'm going to miss my other mommy.

[Em]

Yeah, exactly. You don't want that.

[Christine]

I don't want that. Anyway, so that's why I drink. But, you know, I still don't have a beverage aside from my wood glue, so I think I'm just going to be huffing raw Dogging it. Sorry. I hate when people say that more than anything in the world, and then it becomes an intrusive thought and I can't stop from saying it.

[Em]

One of Christine's favorite things to do is literally bully me out of saying a phrase and then she starts saying it immediate.

[Christine]

There was. There's literally a scene in our live show where M says something to a ghost and I get really upset. I'm like, how could you say that? And then literally five minutes later, I just start repeating the exact same thing.

[Em]

But like, God forbid I ever get upset with you to say, you know, we got.

[Christine]

I can't believe you don't. If most, most people do. You're the only one, I think, who gives me the leeway, whereas everyone else would go, why the fuck would you tell me not to say? And honestly, I think that you. I let you let me do it. And so I just can't stop myself because I know you'll let me.

[Em]

I just know you're not going to change your ways at this point. So it's not worth the energy to complain about it.

[Christine]

So when I heard myself just repeating, I was like, how could you say that, Em? And I'm like holding my wine glass in the. In the video clip. And then five minutes later I'm like, hey, guess what? I'm going to say the exact same thing and see what happens.

[Em]

Even with raw Dog. You hated raw dog. And now look who's saying it.

[Christine]

It's like, it's like it just starts to worm its way into my head.

[Em]

Vomitus. I created vomitus. Let's clear.

[Christine]

And then.

[Em]

And you hated it. Nice. I'm telling you.

[Christine]

No, that's what I think. That one immediately struck a chord with me where I said that word has been missing from my vocabulary.

[Em]

Oh, interesting.

[Christine]

Vomitus was like. Was like a immediate one hit wonder. Like, I was delighted about that, I think.

[Em]

Thank you. Every now and then I've got one of those.

[Christine]

Yeah. The rest were just ones that I've unfortunately twisted and warped in my own mind as like a coping mechanism. I think I just spit them back out at you just to maybe make you suffer along with me. I don't know why I do it.

[Em]

Doesn't work. I just.

[Christine]

Doesn't work.

[Em]

I just think, okay, you're on board now.

[Christine]

Doesn't work. She thinks it's funny.

[Em]

I can stop getting yelled at now.

[Christine]

We can say raw dog in it again.

[Em]

Well, I'm sorry you're raw dogging it. Although you do have that vape stick, I'm sure, because you go nowhere without it as I.

[Christine]

As I lift all my blankets looking for it, because it rolled away. What do you mean?

[Em]

I feel like you and that vape stick have, like, a Chef Boyardee relationship where it's just gonna roll down the hill into your house if you ever lose. Wait, wait.

[Christine]

Do you know what it did? This exact one? Not this one, because this is a new one. At the Shania Twain concert with you and Eva.

[Em]

Oh, yeah.

[Christine]

Eva's engagement, this exact brand rolled from our seats down the entire auditorium. And poor Eva's friend had to go. Ellen had to go. I think it was Ellen had to go on the floor and start just, like, digging for it under all the, like, nasty, spilled, like, sugary cocktails, and it rolled all the way to the bottom. And guess how nice I am. I gave it to Eva afterwards because she said she really liked it. During the show, I was, like, letting everybody try it, and Eva said she really liked it. So after show, I was like, here, I got this for you. She's like, is this the one that rolled through everybody's beverages to the bottom of the stage at the Shania Twain concert on, like, a Wednesday? And I said, yes. And she said, thank you so much, Christine. And I said, you're welcome.

[Em]

You know, Ellen, Ellen was probably like, I would have just bought Eva another one.

[Christine]

Like, honestly, Ellen was probably like, I also have a two year old at home, so this is really familiar for me to crawl around on a sticky floor.

[Em]

So gross.

[Christine]

I become the toddler. When I'm away from my toddler, I become the toddler. So anyway, it is a Chef Boyard situation.

[Em]

I've said this before. Christine and Leona are the same person on FaceTime, because they will both drop the phone. They will both just walk away. They'll both forget that they were talking to me.

[Christine]

They'll both start and spill them, like, into the camera. Yeah. Turn the phone off. Yeah.

[Em]

At one point, we were calling Leona on FaceTime, and I was like, christine, it's like watching yourself face.

[Christine]

It's crazy amazed because I had never thought of it. I were in the parking lot or somewhere and we FaceTimed Leona, and I was watching her going, get a load of this girl. And Emma's like, this is you.

[Em]

Like, you don't every. This is every work call, literally.

[Christine]

I know, right? I was like, I have a meeting with you at least three times a week. Like, this Liana literally looks at the camera and she's, like, kind of staring at it really way too close so we can see all the crusty, like, things on her face because she's a box car child. And she goes, I need to set the phone down because I have to do some hula hooping. And we were like, okay. And she set the phone down and, like, got. Which is not a hula hoop. This, like, hoop she has and just puts it around her shoulders and starts doing this, and it doesn't even, like, fit. And I was like, she does feel like what I do on a FaceTime.

[Em]

Remember when she said, look at my pants, and then just showed us her pants? And I never saw her face again.

[Christine]

My pants. And then she just dropped the phone and said, I have to go. And we were like, well, now we're just looking at the floor.

[Em]

Well, the last time you. She put me on the floor and went, funkle m, you're on the floor. Bye.

[Christine]

And then just awkwardly picked it up and was like, hi, Blaze.

[Em]

You can hang up the phone now. Yeah.

[Christine]

He's like, I don't know. I lost her. She's somewhere.

[Em]

Anyway. I love that little baby. Oh, I love that little baby.

[Christine]

I miss my baby.

[Em]

You tell her hi. She'll know what it means.

[Christine]

I don't know. I don't know. I will.

[Em]

By the way, you've had enough time now that I can yell at you.

[Christine]

Okay, you can always yell at me.

[Em]

You know what Today is episode 411. And you know what the 411 is?

[Christine]

What's the 41 1?

[Em]

That. This is our Christmas episode.

[Christine]

Christmas time is here. Look, I'm Frosty the Snowman with a corn cob pipe. This is like, as the holidays progress, I just slowly start losing it. My scene morphing into a snowman. Right? My grasp on reality. I become Tim Allen or Jude Law or whoever was in that movie.

[Em]

Did you become, like, the Heat Miser or whatever?

[Christine]

Was it one of them a snowman at one point or was that also.

[Em]

Tim Alle was a certainly Santa between.

[Christine]

Woody Allen and Tim Allen. Hold on.

[Em]

One of them married their stepdaughter.

[Christine]

Oh, that's a problem, isn't it? Yeah.

[Em]

Wait, not Woody Allen. No, sorry. Scratch that. Allegedly. No, it's not. It's not even Woody Allen. Is this Woody Allen?

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

What is Woody Allen now? I'm like overthinking it. Woody Allen.

[Christine]

He's a tenant bomb guy.

[Em]

Stepdaughter. Yep. Okay, I was right. Okay, For a second I was thinking of the guy from Hunger Games.

[Christine]

Did you know, one time I had a nightmare. Wait, who that guy? Josh Hutcherson?

[Em]

No, the guy who played their. Their mentor.

[Christine]

Oh, him. His name's also Woody Allen, I think, though.

[Em]

Are you serious?

[Christine]

You're not serious. It's Woody Guthrie. No, it's Woody Harrelson.

[Em]

Woody Harrelson. I always mix them up and I'm always nervous that I'm accusing the wrong person at some point.

[Christine]

Woody Vaughn, Andy from Toy Story.

[Em]

Fuck. You're fucking not awk this planet Earth anymore. I. I took too big of a hit at that.

[Christine]

I wish I did. I wish I had taken any of a hit, except I'm too scared to do it on a camera because I feel like maybe we'll get in trouble. I don't know.

[Em]

Tim Allen is Home Improvement and he played Santa like 20,000.

[Christine]

He's such a piece of shit. I one time had a dream that I was on the Tim Allen show and everyone always says home Improvement. I go, no, no, no. The dream was about a show called the Tim Allen Show. And I walked out onto stage and you know when you can't walk because you're like in a dream. And I was trying to walk on stage and then he said, now everybody, let's laugh at her. And the whole audience laug. I was like 11 when I had this dream. And to this day, and to this day I like think about it every time I think about Home Improvement because for years I would say, I had this dream about the Tim Allen show and everyone said, oh, Home Improvement. I said, how many fucking times do I have to tell you?

[Em]

Now that's comedy gold. Now that's comedy gold.

[Christine]

It wasn't funny. It was very sad.

[Em]

That was the funniest thing I've ever heard in my life. Oh, no. And you know what? A manifestation or a prediction because no one knew he was shit yet.

[Christine]

Foreshadowing. I know, right? And he was such a. He was such a Dick. In my 11 year old subconscious, I knew he was a dick.

[Em]

Let's laugh at her. Oh, you know who he was? This is my favorite scene from Home Improvement was. He was Buzz Lightyear. And my favorite scene from Home Improvement is when it's him and his son. I Think Randy, who voiced Simba. And they're debating over who's the better Disney character. Buzzer or Simba.

[Christine]

Yeah, you did tell me about that. I thought that was pretty clever. Clever like a little in joke. A little Easter egg.

[Em]

Yeah. Where were we? Wow. Oh, because it's Christmas time.

[Christine]

Oh, sorry.

[Em]

Finally she muted herself.

[Christine]

I said off the planet.

[Em]

Anyway, since it's Christmas, I was going to offer you to do one final of the year. MGM lion sing along moment.

[Christine]

Christmas time is here. Au savoie savoir. Au savoir savoie savoir Savoie savo sa.

[Em]

It's beautiful, Clay.

[Christine]

Bells in the air. Music everywhere.

[Em]

This is where I tricked you. And that was your application for the institution.

[Christine]

Did I make it? Did I make the cut? My application for the institution. It sounds like some X Men thing, but it's just really. I'm going away for a while to.

[Em]

Get better, to get Medicaid away to the fresh air.

[Christine]

Where I need to go to Waverly Hills for a while and get some. Sit on a chair and like view some mountains.

[Em]

And I'm not saying anything bad's gonna happen to you. I am saying electroshock therapy's available there.

[Christine]

You know what? I think it's about time we finally opened up the floor for that as an option. Yeah.

[Em]

Merry Christmas, Mom. I'm getting you another frame with only my face in it, so you can keep FaceTiming that instead of me. From big events to the silly moments you capture every day. Doesn't it sometimes feel like all your favorite photos are just stuck on your camera, Rol? Well, never to fear, mom. Because now with the aura frame, you don't have to worry about that anymore.

[Christine]

Named the number one digital photo frame by Wirecutter, Aura makes it effortless to upload unlimited photos and videos directly from your phone, so your favorite memories are always within view. Plus, you can personalize and preload an aura frame for a truly special, unforgettable gift. I mean, I gave my in laws one and put a bunch of photos of Leona on it. And then all of Blaze's family had the audacity to add themselves into the frame. I thought, what is this not supposed to be about me and my family and my daughter? But no, it is actually really fun. Go over there and like see our photos and everyone's photos scrolling past. So it's a cool invention.

[Em]

I really would actually be so mad if anyone else touches the frame full of me pictures that I gave my mom.

[Christine]

I'm going to access Your moms. And I'm going to start uploading photos of me and Leona.

[Em]

Well, it is pretty easy to set up. It takes only two minutes to set up a frame using the Aura app and you get free unlimited storage. There are absolutely no hidden fees or subscriptions.

[Christine]

Save on the perfect gift by visiting auraframes.com to get 35 off Aura's best selling Carver Mat frames by using promo code drink at checkout. That's a U R A frames.com, promo code drink. This deal is exclusive to listeners, so get yours now in time for the holidays. Terms and conditions apply.

[Em]

Well, Merry Christmas, everybody. And because of that, we have a Christmas story for you.

[Christine]

It's your application to the institution. You know how people make, like, home tapes for Survivor? That was like, my home is your audition reel for.

[Em]

For a sanatorium.

[Christine]

Remember how you found a porno on your orange cassette tape about the Rugrats all grown up. Up. I feel like I need to.

[Em]

That was said in confidence. No, no, it wasn't.

[Christine]

Not.

[Em]

It was said by. In confidence. I mean to all of our Patreon people.

[Christine]

No, you said that in the intro. I thought. Oh. Oh, no, you're right. I'm sorry. You're right. Oh, that was Patreon. I'm sorry. That is a spoiler for patrons only. And that's private information, everyone. So you better. If you heard that you have to become a patron now. It's the law. Because you heard a secret thing. Yeah. So I'm going to put that on an orange VHS tape and hide it somewhere.

[Em]

Thank you. I. Good luck. I hope you make it.

[Christine]

Maybe they'll give me a scholarship.

[Em]

I think you will be going for free because I'm paying for it.

[Christine]

Oh, thank you.

[Em]

It's the least I can do. It's also the last I could do, so.

[Christine]

The last frontier.

[Em]

Also, sidebar. Jack, please. I'm so sorry. Please mute every single time I'm blowing my nose.

[Christine]

Obviously, I would hope that that's a given, but yes, thank you, Jack. Because sometimes we do inquire about really strange sounds.

[Em]

Just please cut to Christine's face every time. It's so disgusting. I'm so sorry. Okay, here is your Christmas story. And maybe you can fill me in on this if you know about it.

[Christine]

Oh, gosh.

[Em]

Okay, it is. It's more French than German, but his name is Hans Trapp. So you tell me if I'm supposed to believe that's French.

[Christine]

Like the Von Traps.

[Em]

Yes. Sound wise, but no.

[Christine]

But not them.

[Em]

Not. Not The Bond?

[Christine]

No, but Hans is absolutely a German name.

[Em]

Would you have been able to teach me about the Von Traps?

[Christine]

No, because I was very actively forbidden from watching the Sound of Music.

[Em]

Okay, well, here's the story of Hans Trapp, who is a Christmas character. Oh, he has a few other names. I think Hans Trot is one of them. Hans Nickel is one of them. Rubles. Oh, apparently one of them. But Hans Trapp was the main name. Okay, here is a poem about him. Look, there's Hans Trapp. He's got a nice pointed hood and a beard as white as a white horse. That's.

[Christine]

Good job, Leona. Wow. It's as white as a white horse. Wow, that's really good.

[Em]

Imagine if it was. It's as white as a blue horse.

[Christine]

Wow. Now, that actually means something. I think that must be a metaphor.

[Em]

He comes from the starry sky. He brings a rod to the children who neither sing nor pray.

[Christine]

He brings a rod. Oh. Oh, my God.

[Em]

Doesn't it sound German now?

[Christine]

Well, yeah, surely does.

[Em]

Look, Hans Trapp. We are so small, we are wise and we follow the house. You don't need to come with your rod, for we know how to sing and pray.

[Christine]

Jesus. Why? Like what? Like, it's sick that they do that. They have so many characters that I haven't even heard of half of them. Them.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

There's just here to punish children.

[Em]

Too many children. Fairy tale creatures who are there to beat you if you're bad.

[Christine]

Like, they all have weapons.

[Em]

They sure do.

[Christine]

Oh, like, why?

[Em]

Yeah. Oh. That was the end of the poem. Great.

[Christine]

No, honestly, good work.

[Em]

Sorry we didn't clap.

[Christine]

We thought it was still going.

[Em]

I mean, I could probably just whip out another verse right now. It'd be about beating children. If you'd like me to say that.

[Christine]

Out loud, throw, like, a different colored horse in there and I'd believe you.

[Em]

Yeah. The green horse is angry because you didn't sing or pray.

[Christine]

But it's still green. Just like his hat.

[Em]

Just like his very white hat. So, okay, he's popular in French regions of. Is it Alsace? Alsace. Alsace. How do you say it?

[Christine]

I think it's Alsace.

[Em]

Alsace.

[Christine]

The Alsace. Reason region.

[Em]

I. I know I should have looked it up. It's bolded because I was supposed to look it up sometimes.

[Christine]

I know how my mom says it, but that doesn't necessarily mean. That's a thing that. Like how everybody else haphazardly. Exactly. Exactly. I would say Alsace is how I would say it.

[Em]

Okay, well, he's popular in that region. If somebody who's an avid listener, if you could please comment below for us on whether or not I've covered Pear Futard, can you let me know? Because if not, he'll be my Christmas story next year. But I swear, I wrote about him. I looked. Or I talked about him. I looked it up in our episode list and I couldn't find him.

[Christine]

I've never heard of that, so I don't think you have.

[Em]

Okay, great. Well, then now we know what's going to happen in 2025. Great.

[Christine]

I mean, I don't have any clue because those words mean nothing to me. It sounds like a blast. So, apparently, is this is Alsace where Strasbourg is?

[Em]

I can't even say it. How would I know that?

[Christine]

Okay. Is it the German region of France? Okay, okay. Because that's where, like, Strasbourg is. And it's, like, very cool because you go to. It's a French town, but then everything looks very German. It's like a very trippy thing because people will speak both French and German, and it's like, where am I?

[Em]

Oh, my God. That's like Quebec.

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah. Similar vibes, I think.

[Em]

Or Montreal or. Well, I guess Quebec too.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

So, yes, it's popular in the story of Hans Trapp, is popular in Alsace. Alsace. Sauce or sass?

[Christine]

See, that's what I'm saying. I think it's. I think I would say Alsace, but I don't know if, like, in English you say, you know. I don't know.

[Em]

Okay. In that area of French in France. Oh, my God. Oh, my God, save me. He's popular in that region. And Paris. Frutard is also popular in that area. Who I will cover next year. Great.

[Christine]

If I can't believe you would remember that, I know you will, which is the craziest part.

[Em]

Someone will DM me. Please DM me. Remind me in a year. Okay. Han's trap is loosely based on an actual person. Fun fact. But it's not like Santa Claus and St. Nicholas or whatever. It's. It's a random German knight, and he's loosely, loosely, loosely based off this guy. I guess Santa's also loosely, loosely based off of anyone. But there's a German Knight from the 1400s. His name is Hans von Trotha, and he had two castles. But by the way, I'm totally bastardizing this story. It's very long. I looked up the history of it. It would have bored everybody to tears, unless you're weirdly into this region of 1400s history. So just to make it as Short as I can. Hans von Trotha, he had two castles, but one of them led to a rivalry with a monastery because they believed they were the rightful owners. As someone who read the history of this, technically it did belong to the monastery, but he was gifted it by a previous owner. And so he thought that that kind of trumped the, you know, them being able to move in. So he didn't care that they were the rightful owners, and he refused to move out. And during this dispute, the monastery would not back down. So to assert dominance or to say, like, you, I live here. Hans decided that he was going to build a dam that would keep all of the water from going into that.

[Christine]

Abby's village build a dam to keep all the water from going. Oh, so, like, you don't have access to water? Basically, yeah.

[Em]

He, like, took away their water, which is like the one thing that people have in the 1400s.

[Christine]

That's really cruel.

[Em]

He was like, well, you don't live here, and also you have no water.

[Christine]

Now, and now you're gonna die of thirst. Very nice.

[Em]

Yeah. So then I don't know if, like, he was ordered to take it down or if enough people complained so he took it down or if this was part of his little evil plan. Eventually he then takes it down after the dam has caught enough water. And so then when he takes down the dam, all the water comes crashing back into the town and he floods the town and, like, really ruins their situation.

[Christine]

And we don't know if that was intentional or not. That.

[Em]

Different stories told me different things.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Em]

But it sounds like he took it down as part of his evil plan.

[Christine]

Oh, what a dick.

[Em]

But then I saw another thing where, like, a higher up supervisor of the castle or a castle nearby told them to take it down. So it's.

[Christine]

It's like, oh, yeah, I'll give you. I'll give you water. You want water? I'll give you water. And then he drowns the town. That's so up.

[Em]

Yeah. I don't know what the actual story is, but it seems like he was happy to flood them. You know what I mean?

[Christine]

Yeah. You know what? I do know what you mean.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

We've all been there.

[Em]

We've all been there. I've always wanted to flood a town, at least for the drama.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

It just happens sometimes at some point, the Emperor gets involved.

[Christine]

Oh, boy.

[Em]

And even he can't stop Hans, I guess. This guy is such a force to be recognized. But he is just tormenting this monastery. Who. They were just like, can you Please just let us move in to your house. Because it's our house, actually, and he's just tormenting them. The Emperor can't do anything about it. So eventually it goes all the way to the top and the Pope has to get involved.

[Christine]

I was like, who's above the Emperor? Oh, right. I guess the Pope.

[Em]

Yeah. There's very few people after the Emperor. So the Pope gets involved. The Pope asks Hans to which I, by the way, apparently this Pope is called Pope Innocent vii.

[Christine]

Okay. My brother and I just had a thing where we sat in a hotel room and we debated our favorite Pope names because some of them are so. What? Yeah, well, we went to Catholic school, so they have some weird names. Like there's Pope Urban, there's Pope Innocent, there's Pope Pius, there's Pope Dionysus. That was one of my favorites where I was like, isn't that the Pope? Isn't that the goddess of, like, wine and revelry and. But anyway, there are some, like, Pope names get really weird and there are a lot of them are just like words.

[Em]

You're just gonna pick any word.

[Christine]

It's some. There's some weird system. But yeah, I think you do get, say, and what your name is.

[Em]

What would your name be?

[Christine]

Oh, actually, you know what, he asked me that and I, I had an answer. I can't quite remember, but there were some good ones. Like, like Zephyrinus, like some very, like, you know, Greek God sounding names.

[Em]

That's nice.

[Christine]

Yeah. Do you, do you have one? What's your Pope name?

[Em]

This is a very Pope sleepy. I don't know, like a dwarf. I don't know. I would just pick a Pope hungry, I guess.

[Christine]

Pope Hungry. Yeah. Yeah, you'd probably be the first.

[Em]

Then they'd be like, oh, hungry for the Lord. And that's like, Hungry for the Lord.

[Christine]

Hell, yeah, that's right. You'll be eating your snack pack pudding, like. Yep, that's right. Hungry for the Lord. Nothing else.

[Em]

Me with a fruit roll up falling out of my mouth. Yeah.

[Christine]

But yeah, so there's some weird ones, but yeah, Pope. I was going to ask you if it was one of the weird names because there's like Urban and Innocent.

[Em]

Well, this is more interesting to me is that there was a Pope Innocent and then this is Pope Innocent the eighth.

[Christine]

So. Yeah, yeah, it's a very common one.

[Em]

Yeah, I like that they just swipe each other's names from each other.

[Christine]

They do. And then there's like Clement and urban, the like 11th. And you're like, Jesus Christ, come up with something original, like Hungary.

[Em]

I feel like it should be like a. Like a jersey that gets retired. It's like once the name.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

Like, let everybody at least be able to remember who each is, because now it just feels like you're like King Edward the fucking 17th or whatever.

[Christine]

That's probably what they're going for, you know? Know, like a legacy type thing. I know. Well, I don't know what you expected. Some really progressive politics coming from the Vatican.

[Em]

Well, okay, so this guy, remember, he floods a town, he's pissing everyone off. The Emperor can't help him. So Pope Innocent viii, which, by the.

[Christine]

Way, is always to me like, wow, thou doth protest too much. Like, I'm innocent. That's my name. I didn't do anything. Check the license. Check the birth certificate. Obviously, I had nothing to do with it. This Hands are clean.

[Em]

Like, whatever you feel about the Church. Wasn't me.

[Christine]

What? Obviously there's no way it could have been, because stereo that.

[Em]

That plays Shaggies. It wasn't me. So the Pope asks Hans to literally come to Rome to visit him because it. He's acting up that bad that he has to face to face defend his loyalty to the Church to the Pope, which what a bar story of, like, the Pope literally told me I have to come see him.

[Christine]

He summoned me.

[Em]

He asked me to, like, really go prove my loyalty and hang out and have dinner with him.

[Christine]

God, he, like, always wants my attention.

[Em]

And wants me to my love.

[Christine]

So clingy, that guy.

[Em]

And then Hans refuses to go be with him and writes him a letter instead. Such a power move, accusing the Church of being incredibly immoral.

[Christine]

Oh, that feels like a low blow. I mean, it's true. Absolutely.

[Em]

But, well, so in. In one way, it's like. Like, first of all, what a power. What a power move that you're gonna. First of all of all, Pope Innocent, as you just said, of all of them, he's gonna send a letter about how immoral the Church is, but then talk about, here's your answer on whether or not I'm loyal to the Church.

[Christine]

Yeah, good point.

[Em]

Here's. Here's a letter about how I'm not. And here's a letter about how you suck.

[Christine]

Like, whoa.

[Em]

But also, at some point, I think he lost the plot, because if he really wanted to keep his house, the last thing you should do is now go give a middle finger to the Pope. Now you've got an enemy.

[Christine]

Now he's gonna get mad.

[Em]

It's one thing to Be, like, an arrogant asshole and, like, no one can tame you. But, like, now you're just gonna go piss off anyone who can make any rule they want.

[Christine]

I was gonna say, especially someone with power who can just say, never mind, it's mine now.

[Em]

Yeah, so that's what happened. The Pope excommunicated him. Well, and. And then he probably went to the bar and played victim. He went. Can you believe what they did? Oh, he was also given an imperial ban of any legal rights he had to any of his belongings. So he literally just.

[Christine]

They just said, you're banned from all your stuff.

[Em]

Yeah, just go away. Just literally scared.

[Christine]

Every day, living in that time period, I'd be like, I'm. Somebody's just gonna. Gonna quarter me or take all my belongings or, like, apply.

[Em]

All they had is water, and it was probably full of, like, rat poop or something. Like, it was.

[Christine]

The Pope's just gonna summon me, and it's just gonna be a bad day. Any day, every day. The holidays can be hard. It's tough sometimes when you're trying to make it a really festive time. You're buying plane tickets, you're buying presents for other people. You're buying nice peppermint coffees for yourself. And sometimes your money takes a little bit of a hit. But that's why we want to introduce you to Chime. Take control of your finances by using a Chime checking account with features like no monthly or maintenance fees, fee, free overdraft up to 200, or getting paid up to two days early with direct deposit. You can learn [e-mail] Drink to date.

[Em]

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[Christine]

That is so cool. And I feel like that feature is. Is a game changer to be able to have that, like, flexibility and freedom, no fee, overdraft. I think that's huge. And I would have really thrived with something like that back in the day.

[Em]

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[Christine]

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[Em]

If I ever had a time travel to that era, to the medieval times, I would just. It's like when you go on a. Like as I just did, you're about to go on a plane for the holidays, you know you're gonna get sick. It's like if I'm gonna time travel to the medieval era, I know I'm gonna die, die.

[Christine]

I'm gonna be the Pope. If you let. If you bring. Send me back there, you let me be the Pope or something. So I can at least have a.

[Em]

Little bit of sway between this and like the Salem witch trial era. Like we. I'm. That's a, that's a flyover state for me on the time machine. I'm not even touching that.

[Christine]

We're in trouble.

[Em]

Oh, so at the.

[Christine]

Oh, Emperor fly over state in the time machine.

[Em]

You know what I mean?

[Christine]

So beautiful.

[Em]

You know what I mean? It's like, oh, let's change the time circuits. We're not going to.

[Christine]

Like, we all know. We all know. This is just the planes, like gonna.

[Em]

Wave down when you stop to. You'll stop to get gas for the time machine, but like, you're looking over your shoulder the whole time, like, how quick can I get out?

[Christine]

It's definitely not New Jersey where they make you hire, pay somebody, tip somebody to fill you up.

[Em]

No. And also, if I'm filling my time machine with gas in 1692, I am getting burned at the stake for sure.

[Christine]

That's big time him, you know what I'm saying? Yeah.

[Em]

At least the medieval people might stay away from me. They might think I am Jesus or something.

[Christine]

Yeah, you probably look like a biblical monster or something.

[Em]

Anyway, here we go. So the Pope excommunicated him and he lost all of his belongings, which I'd love to think that the monastery then moved in and just started playing with all of his, like, stuff. Yeah, it's like they. We all. Yeah, we have his record player now.

[Christine]

Look, his pipe.

[Em]

Yeah. So he ends up leaving the region and after he died, he became associated with this defiant, bloodthirsty, power hungry, violent boogeyman who wants to terrorize people, especially Christian people.

[Christine]

Wow. Okay. So he became enemy number one and then like, was fictionalized almost into this, like, enemy character.

[Em]

Yeah. Merry Christmas.

[Christine]

A villain. Okay.

[Em]

Some versions say this is where his name was changed to Hans Trapp. Because remember, it was Hans Von Trotha. And Trapp apparently is short for trappin, which maybe, you know, maybe you can confirm, but apparently it means walking loudly to scare off the spirits.

[Christine]

Yeah. Trappe means stairs or steps, so that makes sense.

[Em]

Okay, so walking, maybe stepping. I don't know. I went multiple. Multiple sources said specifically walking loudly to scare off spirits. And I was like, that can't be summed up in one word.

[Christine]

That's. Well, it feels very German that they would have a word for that. But, you know, it would probably be like 40 letters long.

[Em]

Right.

[Christine]

But I think. I think it nowadays, I think it would probably mean more like just steps or treading. But I think back then it probably had some connotation like that. Yeah.

[Em]

Yeah. Okay. So because of this name change, it's thought that his spirit wanders the area seeking vengeance on the spirits who took over his castle.

[Christine]

Oh, okay.

[Em]

So that's one side of it. Now this is where it gets wildly, loosely based. It just like does all of that.

[Christine]

Thing out of the corner of my eye again, but this time, like right next to me. That was so weird. I know, but it's just like a wall next to me. So I'm like, what did it look like? It just looked like something just like went right past me. But I'm literally dowsing grods with you in a corner. This is like what's next to me.

[Em]

Well, I'm glad to not be there.

[Christine]

Me too. You don't like something fell off the shelf? I don't. No. I think they're downstairs. But anyway, sorry, that was weird, but I was just thinking. It happened right when I was thinking about what you said about like, Trappen or what? Trappen. About like how I was just hearing someone on the stairs here and Trapp.

[Em]

It's Hans. Trappen.

[Christine]

Stairs. Yeah. Trappen means stairs. That's pretty weird.

[Em]

Well, now you know. Maybe his name's Hans.

[Christine]

To ghostly. Ghostly tread, his name would be Hans. I would be haunted by a ghost named Hans. I mean, are you kidding me? I can't escape it.

[Em]

Do you ever talk to Harry out loud?

[Christine]

No. Maybe once or twice ever, but not really. No. Which maybe I should. I do talk to him in my head sometimes.

[Em]

Yeah. Maybe next time he's making noise on the stairs, just go. No, thank you, Harry, please, either you or your friend.

[Christine]

I don't know why I didn't do that.

[Em]

Why doesn't anyone ever listen to me? The no, thank you rule really does work.

[Christine]

Work. No, but I mean, it's so smart. I think just in the Moment I was so convinced it was a real person, it didn't even, like, occur to me. You know what I mean? It was like later on when I went to bed and, like, woke up the next day that I was like, well, clearly we didn't get murdered. Like, I.

[Em]

There have been a few times where, like, if it's somebody that I care about or if I feel like it's somebody that cares about me, I just say out loud, like, I. You probably don't mean it, but you're making me really uncomfortable. Can you kind of take it down a notch?

[Christine]

Yeah. Yeah. And you know what? I actually realized the next day, which is so embarrassing, I was almost gonna not even say it is. The next morning, I realized that I had just done a meditation before bed where I had asked my spirit guides to please make a noise in the house. Oh, Christine, they were here. And then I made Blaze get up and check if there was an intruder.

[Em]

Christine, you are beyond insufferable.

[Christine]

Like, so annoying. I was like, I can't believe I just did that. And then I went to bed and went. And it occurred to me, like, in the middle of the night, and I went, thank you. Anyway.

[Em]

Oh, my God. Are you there?

[Christine]

Sorry, I think there's a lag.

[Em]

Oh, Christine.

[Christine]

Hello?

[Em]

Christine, you laughed so hard that the Internet broke. Now can you talk?

[Christine]

I'm so ashamed.

[Em]

There's a huge. There's a huge laugh bag. What happened? Literally, as you were laughing, it just. Like, you were laughing so loud, and then it just. That it just blacked out and it just came back, and now there's a laugh.

[Christine]

I think it's. I think it's. I think it's better now. And I also just remembered another thing. What about the ghostly stuff? So remember how I said my vape broke?

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

And you know how just now when I just started freaking out and the Internet went out out?

[Em]

Huh? What, you now have, like, electricity powers?

[Christine]

I have been breaking everything around me. Light bulbs. My phone will just turn off. Like, two of my vape pens just died. And. And, like, I plugged something in yesterday, and it sparked and just died. And I'm like, I've gone through, like, three laptop chargers. This is in, like, the last two months. And I thought, like, something was wrong with my house. But then when we went on tour, it kept happening, and things like, spark. I don't know. So I don't know if that's part of it, but remember I went and saw that psychic medium guy one time, and he's like, has anything Ever moved around you. And I was like, yeah, like sometimes things fall off the wall. And he's like, that's cuz you can channel, like, almost energy to move. And now I'm afraid I'm like, breaking everything in the house. So I'm sorry about the Internet. If that was me, I do apologize.

[Em]

This is just a. A Disney original channel. Disney Channel original movie montage where you're.

[Christine]

Learning your skills, finally figuring it out. It's like a modern day, but just like an old and tired podcaster instead of like a fun high school kid who turns into a dog or something. Anyway, I'm sorry. That was my fun little tidbit for you. But yes, I did also ask for the sign from the ghosts, and I am insufferable. And all of that is true.

[Em]

Great. Well, okay. Master all your skills before I really need them so I can exploit you. Thank you so much. Okay, this is. So that was all a story about actual. A real German knight named Hans von Trotha. Okay. About how he.

[Christine]

I mean, he really looked like a little prick, right?

[Em]

Yes. So he gets banished. Now here's the thing. This is where I guess, like, it's his epilogue. And this is the part that is now the legend of Han's Trap.

[Christine]

Oh, this is where it begins.

[Em]

Yeah. Because nobody refers to any of that stuff. Like the backstory. That was just so everybody knows who the story is based on.

[Christine]

Gotcha.

[Em]

And his fake epilogue is what the actual creature is.

[Christine]

This feels like the time I watched WandaVision with you. You.

[Em]

Yes, it does feel like we're kind of going back and forth here, and.

[Christine]

I am, like, very interested. I'm. I am paying attention, but it's. I like being your student.

[Em]

So if someone were to come up to me and go, papa, tell me all about the Han's Trap as like a Christmas crypted, I would start here and I would say, well, there's this guy. He was banished to the woods, and that's where it starts. Okay, but if people are wondering why, then the real person got banished because of.

[Christine]

He yelled at the. He wrote a mean letter. He bullied the Pope. Pope is what happened.

[Em]

Yeah, but interesting. No one mentions any of that stuff. And yet Hans Trap became like this Christian Christmas cryptid. And it had all these, like, very intense religious overtones that nobody even talks about.

[Christine]

I wonder if they were like, let's make an example of this guy. I don't know.

[Em]

Yeah, that's what it feels like. Because they don't mention the Pope or anything afterwards.

[Christine]

But he's like. He's like, don't bring me into it. I just want to pull the strings behind the scenes.

[Em]

It's almost like they should have. They should mention everything.

[Christine]

It feels like it's relevant. Right, right.

[Em]

It would certainly be a more powerful, like, testimonial creature and a warning, like.

[Christine]

Don'T bully the Pope or like your religious leaders. Yeah.

[Em]

Don't defy the Church and. And. And go against a monastery.

[Christine]

That's not part of it.

[Em]

Well, so basically, they. There's a version that says that Hans Trap was he's. Or if someone asked about Hans Trap as a creature, they would start by saying, well, he was once a powerful man, but he either defied the church or he started making deals with the devil. It very quickly slips into. He became like an occult practitioner, and he was banished to live alone forever. So he's banished to the mountains of Bavaria. That's where he.

[Christine]

First of all. Nice place to be banished. If I was going to be banished somewhere, you send me right there. There's. It's beautiful.

[Em]

Exactly. So he's still craving power or vengeance or insert word here. That's evil and against the chur. And this is why he starts practicing dark magic, which again, probably stems from him being evil. Because he defied the Church during this time period, he's so isolated that he slowly begins to lose his sanity. And also probably because he's hungry and cold and has no shelter or belongings.

[Christine]

And lives in the woods now.

[Em]

Yeah, yeah, they don't talk about any of that. They just say this man, he started practicing things with the devil and then he went insane. It's like he sounds like he was banished to the mountains and just had to live off the ground.

[Christine]

We're a little more critical critical thinkers these days than I think Maybe they were 400, 500 years ago, I guess.

[Em]

Certainly. Because my next bullet point is as he lost his sanity. And once he became fully deranged, she now craves the taste of human flesh.

[Christine]

Oh, sure. Yeah. That's how it works.

[Em]

He hatches a plan by dressing himself up as a scarecrow, which, like, by the way, again, critical thinking. Maybe he was just putting straw on his shirt because he was cold.

[Christine]

Maybe he was trying to go to bed.

[Em]

But he hatches a plan, dresses up as a scarecrow, leans against, like, the stake that. Like the stick that a scarecrow would be on, and he waits in the field for someone to walk by.

[Christine]

Jesus, this is a horror movie. Okay.

[Em]

A little shepherd boy. Oh, of course. A little Christian boy.

[Christine]

Oh, no. With a little crook and a little sheep.

[Em]

Yes. He eventually walks by, and Hans gets off of the scarecrow stick and stabs him with it.

[Christine]

What? That's really dark.

[Em]

Drags him through the forest. Jesus preps him for cooking and slices him up.

[Christine]

Germans are so up, dude.

[Em]

And as he's about to take his very first bite of this little shepherd boy, a bolt of lightning comes down, strikes him down, cracks his head open, and he dies.

[Christine]

The Von Trap. The trap guy.

[Em]

The trap guy.

[Christine]

What?

[Em]

Which a lot of people say in their stories, they say a divine lightning bolt.

[Christine]

Right. Okay. So I was gonna say, is this like a godly lightning?

[Em]

Like, yes, it was, I guess, an allegory for God stopping evil. Although this is where the atheist in me goes, okay, so God couldn't do that before the little boy was stabbed with a stake, dragged through the woods, and sliced up.

[Christine]

But, yeah, but the boy was just part of the story. You know, it's just like he's just a. He's just a plot point here.

[Em]

He had a purpose in. In God's world. And it was to be an example.

[Christine]

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[Em]

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[Christine]

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[Em]

Splits his head open while he's on the way down. Cool, guys. Merry Christmas.

[Christine]

So, yeah, so far, this I do see how this definitely correlates to the holidays. It's definitely matched up.

[Em]

So wicked cannibal scarecrow. So this backstory helped the region use Hans trap. As a scary little shepherd boy is.

[Christine]

Walking around with a lamb. You've got some good eats right in front of You.

[Em]

I know. Lamb shank. Are you kidding me?

[Christine]

Kidding me? You could just. You're. Later. You're literally in the woods, hungry. And a beautiful little sheep. Or a lamb. Now, normally I wouldn't recommend eating someone else's sheep, but it's better than eating them.

[Em]

Maybe he went out there to find his sheep, like Mary or something. Nothing like Mary who had a little lamb.

[Christine]

Oh, right, she did have.

[Em]

Was she looking for them or she already had one.

[Christine]

No, that one followed it followed her around everywhere. She was trying to get rid of that lamb.

[Em]

I think so Maybe the shepherd.

[Christine]

I think she was trying to shake him off.

[Em]

Maybe he was like. Like a covenless witch. He just didn't. He was a shepherdless. A sheepless shepherd.

[Christine]

Oh, that's sad.

[Em]

What's a group of sheep called? A flock.

[Christine]

A flock of sheep. Yes. See?

[Em]

Is he a flockless shepherd?

[Christine]

Oh, wow, that's beautiful. M. Now he's a dead flockless shepherd.

[Em]

He didn't have a lot going for him. No sheep, no life.

[Christine]

Oh, stabbed with your own crook.

[Em]

So this backstory helped the region use Han's trap. This backstory, like it. It was already bad that he defied the Pope, but I guess he had to be accountable.

[Christine]

It wasn't enough. Quite enough.

[Em]

It helped the region use Han Strap as a scary warning to other naughty children. Like this shepherd boy. I like that. Now he's naughty.

[Christine]

He was literally child laboring.

[Em]

He was out in the fields, bad at his job. Flockless shepherd, so. But it taught other kids that if you weren't careful, the cannibal scarecrow will come after you, drag you into the forest and eat you up.

[Christine]

Imagine how scared you'd be of a normal scarecrow after this. Like, if you believe this, like, you would never want to be in a field again.

[Em]

And also part of me be like, he's not going to eat me up. God stopped it last time. That would be me being an. I'd be like, kill me.

[Christine]

He killed you first.

[Em]

Somehow this did become a slippery slope into Christmas territory when reprimanding your kids of be good or else this guy will come find you. Especially because he looked very Santa esque. He was tall, with a long white beard, pointy hat, like the poem, as white as white or whatever. He had black boots. And sometimes he was seen riding a horse because he was originally a knight. But you could. Could attribute a horse to, like, a reindeer.

[Christine]

No, you couldn't. But okay.

[Em]

And Hans Trap has similar, obviously, Christmas Krampus undertones.

[Christine]

Yes.

[Em]

That maybe made people think of Christmas, because they were like, he sounds like that other guy we celebrate on Christmas.

[Christine]

Other man who beats up my children on Christmas.

[Em]

Like Krampus. He carries a bag with him sometimes for all of the children he'll be dragging through the forest. And he carries that long rod from the poem to beat naughty kids with.

[Christine]

Nice.

[Em]

And now the legend is that a scarecrow roams the area before Christmas, picking out which kids he will eat for Christmas dinner.

[Christine]

That's so psychotic. This is, like, somehow scarier to me than Krampus in a lot of.

[Em]

Yeah, because, like, Krampus will beat you and then kind of leave you alone, right?

[Christine]

Like, predetermined. I. I think there's different versions where sometimes Krampus will, like, take you with him, which is also very scary. But this one, that he's, like, predetermining. Like, he's like. He's, like, lurking around before Christmas picking who's going to be his dinner. Like, what the.

[Em]

That also feels like. You have a chance to correct your wrongdoings before he comes. You can repent.

[Christine]

Yeah, but what if he spots you in the window and picks you and then it's like, is it too late now? Like, do I. How do I prove it now? You know, like, if he.

[Em]

How do I wipe off this mark he's given me? Right.

[Christine]

If he spotted me already. Oh, my gosh.

[Em]

Next time he sees me, he's coming after me.

[Christine]

He has a fork in his hand. Oh, gosh.

[Em]

In a lot of versions, Hans Trapp and Santa work together. Allah. Good cop, bad cop. Because this is my personal favorite version of the backstory. This was from one source, but I gotta tell you, it's delicious.

[Christine]

Important.

[Em]

Santa heard about Hans because Santa heard that children were in.

[Christine]

Santa hears everything.

[Em]

He does. He know he's when you're sleeping and everything.

[Christine]

All of it.

[Em]

He heard that the little kids in the town were in danger. Santa said, not today.

[Christine]

Yes.

[Em]

He traps Hans.

[Christine]

Yes.

[Em]

Actually, he uses one of his friends in Bates. Hans is the real.

[Christine]

Who's his friend. Friend.

[Em]

I should know this, but I forgot an elf.

[Christine]

Like, what do you mean friends? I'm so confused right now.

[Em]

No, some other, like, folklore creature.

[Christine]

Some other Christian character. I was like, who the are you talking about? I was about ready to start yelling. I felt like you were challenging everything.

[Em]

I know that little wants to be a dentist. Yeah. Yeah.

[Christine]

What the is that all about? Get a grip.

[Em]

So Santa traps him. Him and then confines him and trains him back to humanity.

[Christine]

What, like a rehab program? What the.

[Em]

Talk about his application for the institution.

[Christine]

Yeah, Seriously.

[Em]

Talk about his Disney Channel original movie montage where he's being trained back to humanity. And then Hans becomes Santa's guardian every Christmas, where he protects Santa from his ops. Who, like who? The island. Like an enemy of Santa, but also he wants. He does this as a way to repent for his sins by punishing other sinners. It's that Christian logic. It's kind of backwards and forwards all at the same time.

[Christine]

Okay, so now what's his name now? Trap.

[Em]

Hans Trap.

[Christine]

Hans Trap. He now is like sort of the Leonardo DiCaprio. Like the catch me if you can. Like, he's now working. He's a good side.

[Em]

Double agent.

[Christine]

Double agent. But using his, like, bad intel to, like, go target people he knows are bad.

[Em]

He goes with Santa one for protection because the snow might come down. I don't know. I don't know what he's protecting Santa from. But also he will go to each of the naughty children and say, I've been there. Don't do that. And yes, he's. I guess he's a. He's like, when all the people at DARE would make someone come in who has done drugs, scared straight type thing.

[Christine]

Okay, okay, I get it, I get it. I get it. Okay.

[Em]

We had someone at come to our.

[Christine]

School bear program because these are good. Yeah, go ahead and love these stories.

[Em]

She said, which, like, I, I. Maybe it's true. I don't believe her, though. When I was 10, too, I didn't believe her. Maybe it's true. But for those who don't know what the DARE program is, it's something that, like, all of the fourth and fifth graders have to go through or used to have to go through. I don't know if they do anymore. It's to teach us to not do drugs. And they will bring, like, a cop in who will teach you all about.

[Christine]

Drugs, drugs and alcohol.

[Em]

Oh, yeah. Drug, alcohol, resistance, education.

[Christine]

I think they do this. I'm pretty sure they do this in the UK too. Because on. My dad wrote a porno. I remember one of them, Jamie, like, or James, like, read a poem or a rap he wrote for DARE in high. In middle school. And it was like, so cringy. But so I think it's probably pretty. We've probably all been in some version.

[Em]

Well, so at our place, there were a few classes where a little, like, police officer came in and showed us drugs. And then we got to, like, look at the drugs and they're like, you run. Yeah, it was probably oregano and like, powdered sugar. They have to. There's no way. They just pass that around.

[Christine]

Like, have. Have cocaine on them.

[Em]

At school, they literally had little baggies and showed them to us, and they're like, this crazy.

[Christine]

We didn't do that.

[Em]

And then they have someone come in who, like, who. I guess he's, like, through it and.

[Christine]

Wants to spare you his journey or their journey.

[Em]

Tells you. Tells you their journey and, like, why you should stay away. The person who came to mind did, like, the classic one of, like, I had a friend who. Which makes me think that you're just saying the same scary words that everyone else is, that her friend took some sort of crazy hallucinogen and thought that her arm was snakes. And then she cut her own arms off stuff.

[Christine]

Okay. That.

[Em]

And I was like, both of them. How did she do that without the other arm?

[Christine]

That's insane. And that also feels like the same energy of, like, oh, well, my aunt's cousin's art teacher had. She got in the car after filling her tank up with gas, and there was a man in the seat behind her that she. You know, the same, like, urban legend that always gets told. Yeah, that. It feels like that a little bit.

[Em]

Even at 10, I was like.

[Christine]

Like, we got told that a woman, a young woman, a young babysitter who was like, a teenage girl microwaved a baby because she thought it was a baked potato because she was so high on marijuana. Yeah.

[Em]

Yes.

[Christine]

Like, it scared me so bad. I was like, she microwaved an infant. And now I'm like, wait, what the. And I mean, it's like they were.

[Em]

Trying to think of the scariest things that R.L. stein could come up with.

[Christine]

Right. And it's like, maybe that happened at some point in life. Like, somebody did that. But I think it's not just, like, some teenager who was stoned. I think it was probably either a. A much more horrific and nuanced story than that.

[Em]

But, yeah, I feel like they were trying to find whatever the scariest value urban legend thing was, and they just told, like, their brother to come in and pretend he'd done drugs.

[Christine]

I don't know about you. Because that's what it felt like. That's what it felt like. And like, they were always in their 20s, and it was like. So the girl who came to our class. I remember our teacher made us leave in the middle of it, because in the middle. And it was in St. Cecilia's and we had to sit in the little auditorium and listen. And this woman came, and she was an Alumni of our school or an alum of our school. School. And she told this story about how she got really into alcohol and drugs. And then she's like. And then one day, I was. I found myself suddenly giving a blowjob to this man. And everybody in the auditorium suddenly is like, what?

[Em]

Yeah, of course. Your ears perk up.

[Christine]

And the t. Oh, my God. The way that the teachers were like, everybody out. And they started, like, shooing us out. And we were like, no, we want to hear about this blowjob.

[Em]

You're like, damn, if you wanted our attention, we got it.

[Christine]

And she got.

[Em]

She.

[Christine]

They were like, that was too far. And she's like, I was just trying to tell my story. I'm like, that one I actually believed because she was telling the story. We were all like, holy shit, girl.

[Em]

Well, isn't that the whole point? It's like. It's supposed to be shocking. It's like, sorry. It also shocked the teachers, by the way.

[Christine]

I was like, I don't want to give anyone a blowjob. I really don't want to get into drugs. Thank you. This really worked for me. Thanks. You fixed me.

[Em]

Exactly. I know. I. And honestly, I know somebody has probably really cut their arm off or something from.

[Christine]

Right.

[Em]

But, like, there's no way in Fredericksburg, Virginia, on a Tuesday, you found the person that everyone's been talking about for 30 years. Yeah.

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It feels like one of those just scared straight stories. Much like what Hans would be probably telling all these kids.

[Em]

Exactly. I'm. I'm a sinner. Or I was a sinner and I've repented my ways, and now I've teamed up with Santa, and you can be a good little Christian and get Christmas.

[Christine]

Presents can be turned toward Jesus. Hey, Emma, are you ever worried about the safety of your home and family like I am every second of every day?

[Em]

Nope. Because I have Simply Save.

[Christine]

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[Em]

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[Christine]

I think my favorite part is that like old school systems, the way it works is they take action when someone. Someone has entered the prim, has breached the perimeter and entered your home, but it's too late at that point.

[Em]

Right.

[Christine]

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[Em]

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[Christine]

I love this. It's like an overprotective helicopter parent, you know, always.

[Em]

It's like, my mom is there.

[Christine]

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[Em]

There's lots of versions like that. I mean, that's just my favorite story that he. Santa, trapped him and trained him back to being a human. Which, like, also implies that he was a monster at some point, right?

[Christine]

Yeah. That he wasn't.

[Em]

Yeah, because if you're not Christian, then you're an animal or something.

[Christine]

Yeah, good point. Yuck.

[Em]

But there's a lot of versions like that. But basically, Santa and Hans are often in cahoots with each other. And one place you can see this take place is at the Hans Trap parade in. How do you say it? Wissenberg.

[Christine]

How do you spell it?

[Em]

W I, S, S E M. Oh.

[Christine]

G or E R?

[Em]

G O U, R, G O U, R. Okay.

[Christine]

Well, I don't know.

[Em]

Well, that is the original city where the actual German knight was banished from. And every December they have a parade there now of the creature that has morphed out of his story, Hans Trap. And at this parade, there are monks. Yeah, I guess so.

[Christine]

Cool.

[Em]

I hope so. Fire jugglers and percussionists.

[Christine]

Real ones. Just kidding.

[Em]

Mary. Kill monks. Fire jugglers. Percussionists.

[Christine]

Hold on.

[Em]

Obviously you're gonna the fire jugglers, because that's too crazy to not do.

[Christine]

I almost wanted to marry, though, for constant entertainment, you know.

[Em]

Oh, interesting.

[Christine]

What was the last one again?

[Em]

Percussionists.

[Christine]

Yeah, that. No, I mean, not that, but.

[Em]

Well, I'm killing the monks. Let's be clear.

[Christine]

I think we gotta kill the monks because they're not really gonna do much unless you know how to make beer because A lot of monks make beer, and that would be really beneficial to me. So I would marry a monk if they. If we had an open relationship. And I could maybe go, like, check out the percussionists every now and then.

[Em]

Wink, maybe. They run a monk brewery. And percussionists play every Thursday night with the fire jugglers.

[Christine]

And then I get to kill one somebody and have sex with somebody else.

[Em]

Great. I love that.

[Christine]

I'm sorry. This is like me explaining a joke to my dad, and I'm like, see? And then you have sex. Then it's like, no, no.

[Em]

It's like explaining a board game.

[Christine]

Yeah, it's not funny anymore. Like, this just sucks now.

[Em]

Okay, so the parade has monks, fire jugglers, has those three things at his parade, all warning the town, quick, Han's trap is coming. Be good. Be good. All very. And after the monks, the fire jugglers, and the percussionists and all of their warnings that Hans Trapp was coming, then rolling down the street is a carriage full of imprisoned, naughty children who are crying out behind bars to be helped before Han's trap gets them.

[Christine]

I've seen that. I've seen that imagery. Somebody, like, has tagged me, I think, in posts about that, but I didn't know what it was.

[Em]

Oh, here you go. Well, then Han's trap appears, and he walks amongst the kids and asks if they've been good. Where's Santa? I don't know. So maybe they're not always together. And then later, another person appears, which is Chris Kindle. Mm. Who is an angel. An angel, like, being who wears a crown of candles and symbolizes the light. And she instills hope in all the scared children because Hans Trapp is obviously trying to take away the naughty ones. But she says, no, no, no, you're gonna be okay if you stay with me, if you become Christian, blah, blah. And Chris Kendall confronts Hans Trapp during this parade, and frightened by the light of Christ, he flees back to his castle, and the whole town celebrates good overcoming evil.

[Christine]

Wow. So it's like war of good versus evil.

[Em]

God's army.

[Christine]

Wow.

[Em]

And then Chris Kendall hands out presents. There's a fireworks show, and usually St. Nicholas shows up as well to help with the presence. I don't know.

[Christine]

My mom saw the drink. Hot chocolate, Christ, angel, child, whatever. One time when she was a little kid.

[Em]

Oh, really?

[Christine]

Yeah. She said she was just heard a voice to go look outside and looked up at the sky, and there was this beautiful angel flying above the house. House. Oh, I don't know. She told me that, and I never Believed her. And now I'm just like. I just like the story. So I believe her. Why wouldn't I believe her? I don't know.

[Em]

That's nice.

[Christine]

But yeah, Chris can. And like, kind means child. So it's like Christ child, Chris kiss. It's like the symbol. But have you heard of Chris Kindle marked? It's like a Christmas festival. It's like a Christmas market that like, a lot of towns have started doing. It's like a German Christmas market. Basically. They're really fun and they have like mulled wine and lots of like cuckoo clocks and presents you can buy and stuff.

[Em]

Nice. Anyway, that's Hans Trap.

[Christine]

What a story.

[Em]

Everyone be a good Christian this Christmas. Ho ho, ho. Or else a cannibal scarecrow is going to get you.

[Christine]

I mean, I just googled him and the photos they've got of this guy are upsetting. Like he looks like German. Oh, ghost adventures.com. well, that explains it.

[Em]

Did you just look at a picture of Zach?

[Christine]

No, it's literally just a scarecrow skeleton situation.

[Em]

Terrifying.

[Christine]

So scary looking, though. I can't believe I didn't know about this guy. All righty. Thank you for sharing that story with us. I've now got a story for us as well that absolutely has nothing to do with Christmas. And I'm sorry about that. That.

[Em]

Oh, that's okay. I brought. I brought the goods this time.

[Christine]

Hey, wait. I know it's a cold case. Does that count?

[Em]

Does that mean I can solve it today for everybody?

[Christine]

Well, I just meant because it's cold, because it's winter. But also, no, not that I do like the pun. Oh, wow. That really didn't land, huh? Okay, yeah. How about let's try again? Yeah, it's a cold case. M. So at least you can have a chance. Chance at solving it. Which is your greatest Christmas wish?

[Em]

It's my. It's. Oh. Merry Christmas, everyone.

[Christine]

Each and everyone. Shut the up, Tiny Tim. That guy pisses me off every time.

[Em]

He pisses me right off.

[Christine]

He ticks me.

[Em]

Oh, I want to kick his little crutches out. I want to be like, kick his.

[Christine]

Little crotch is what I want to do.

[Em]

Oh my God, I do. I. I will tell you, I've never met a Tiny Tim. I did. I did. I did. Like, because at every school play I've been to where someone played Tiny Tim, I was like, this guy. Please. Maybe I've just only watched people perform him wrong. Maybe that's why.

[Christine]

Maybe it's like, oh, that character just does not vibe with our Energy, you know what I mean? Because it's like, okay, you're making these crutches, like, a part of your Persona, and it's becoming a lot for a lot of us. Like, you're. You're making us all about you.

[Em]

I feel like if instead of Tiny Tim, there was like, Big Tim and he was just like, dragging a cigarette. Cigarette.

[Christine]

Wait, but. Hang on, I got it. It's Tiny Tim, but he's just really huge. He's just like. You know how they call, like, certain gangsters like, tiny, but they're huge? Oh, yeah, it's like that. Yeah, it's like. Yeah, he's actually.

[Em]

His last name is actually Soprano, and he's just Tiny Tim Soprano. And he's. He's like, merry Christmas, everyone.

[Christine]

He's got meaty fists. This. This bad guy.

[Em]

Yeah, he's got salami dripping down his mouth. Oh, yeah. See that one I can with now.

[Christine]

This is more our speed.

[Em]

And he's got crutches because he was just in a gang shootout.

[Christine]

He's got no crutches. He tosses those to the side.

[Em]

Yeah, he just walks with a limp. Now that's what you do.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

Bada bing, bada boom. I like him.

[Christine]

Cute Capricole.

[Em]

We are so beyond unhinged today. I really am so sorry to everybody who just wanted a straightforward story.

[Christine]

What are you talking about? I'm having a really reasonable and academic experience with you today.

[Em]

Not a single sentence has just been said today.

[Christine]

Well, here's the. Okay, here's the cold case of Michelle Martinko.

[Em]

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[Christine]

One time I had to tell em that they were still paying for something because I kept getting Nickelodeon subscription boxes sent to my house and I was like, where are these coming from?

[Em]

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[Christine]

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[Em]

And I was like, having a little business manager.

[Christine]

What are you talking about? You just did that for me. Thank you, Rocket Money. I love this app.

[Em]

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[Christine]

Cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money. Go to Rocket Money.com Drink today. That's RocketMoney.com Drink Rocket Money.com Drink. Michelle Martinko was born in 1961 in Cedar Rapids, Iowa, which is a place that you and I went for, at least for me, the first time this year. Iowa. Not Cedar Rapids, but id Iowa.

[Em]

I went to Cedar Rapids.

[Christine]

Did you this. This year or like, I did. Oh, nice.

[Em]

When we went. When we went to Iowa, I had a day to kill, so I went to Cedar Rapids. I don't know why, but that city in my mind has always been, like, maybe I knew someone in my past who lived there. And so the name was just.

[Christine]

I bet I know why. I bet I know why. Because I think I know why it's in my head, because it sounds a little bit like Cedar park, and it also sounds like. Like rapids. Like, it's some, like, yes. Theme park or something. It feels like a place where you'd have a connection or, like, want to go to. But it's, like, random.

[Em]

It was actually the complete opposite of fun. Sorry, Sierra. It was.

[Christine]

But I literally hear Cedar Rapids, and I'm like, oh, like Pigeon Forge? Or like, yes, Cedar Point. And then it's like, that's not what it is. But I've never been so.

[Em]

Iva. Eva. I told her. I was like, I think I'm gonna spend a day in Cedar Rapids. And she went, why? And I. Oh, my God.

[Christine]

See, I never known about it at all.

[Em]

And I went, well, isn't it like a. Like a hot spot? And she. She went, I don't think so. And I went, ah. Eva doesn't know what she's talking about. I'm gonna have fun.

[Christine]

I genuinely thought the same.

[Em]

I literally. It's the only city I have changed my flight and flew away early.

[Christine]

Okay, but, like, remember when you said I went to Cedar Rabbit? I said, oh, how Was it? Because in my head it was still this like, cool place. Not cool, folks, but I really pictured it as like, I feel so seen.

[Em]

Also, like, I. There was like, I tried like three things there, which, like, there was like kind of like a little walking area. That was nice.

[Christine]

Well, there's the National Czech and Slovak Museum and Library, which I'm not saying is not fun. It's just not maybe the vibe that I was imagining. You know, I.

[Em]

Like there was a Mount Trashmore, which there's one in Virginia. So I did that. There was like a little. Little walking area next to that that I went to. It's like I. But I did everything in like an hour. And I was like, well, now what?

[Christine]

Well, they've got a lot of floods in their history story, so that's interesting.

[Em]

I went to as. There was like a food market, but like, you can only eat so much food. Like, I. After like a few shops, I was like, I think that's it. I don't know what else there is. And so. Oh, what was I going to tell you anyway? I thought it was going to be a real gas. And it is not the amusement park that you and I both.

[Christine]

I'm actively learning this because I really never really actively thought about it. It was just always subconsciously in my mind. And so when you said it, I went, oh, how fun. And then I went, wait a minute. Is this where my illusions are all disassembled in front of me? Yes.

[Em]

Yeah. Somehow I. I didn't know what I tried. I fought so hard to make it because you know me, I'm like, I will find the fun. I'll find.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

And maybe it was because a wall.

[Christine]

Made of like gum and make it fun.

[Em]

I. I found some things, but it was like, not even a full day worth of stuff. And so. So I was like, okay, well, maybe this is just like a sleepier town. Also, I found a. In like all of their listicles, there was this one like, burger place where they were like, this is the best burger I've ever had. I went there. They made me wait an hour and 10 minutes. It wasn't even like, busy. And then when I got the burger, I was like, this doesn't. This doesn't taste like it was worth an hour for sure, man. So I. I'm sorry. I'm like, totally trashing on Cedar Rapids.

[Christine]

Right now, you guys.

[Em]

In my mind, I really thought it was going to be. Be like a Six Flags experience.

[Christine]

Well, we did go to Iowa City and we did like, get to Drive through. I feel like we had more fun driving around and, like, exploring and stuff, but.

[Em]

But yeah, I did like Iowa City a lot.

[Christine]

Yeah, I was cool, too, but I. Yeah. Wow. I'm being very disillusioned about Cedar Rapids now because I think it is Cedar park. And, like, you're totally right.

[Em]

It's like, here rapids and you think fun.

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah, I just. And then Cedar Point, you know, it just kind of. Anyway, so that's where Michelle was born. The boring ass city of Cedar rabbits.

[Em]

And then as soon as her little leg started working, she ran out of there.

[Christine]

He said, get me out of this joint. Take me to Pigeon Forge. Take me to a real town. Okay, so she's born 1961 in Cedar Rapids, Iowa. She was the youngest of two daughters. And by the way, folks, can. Can you guys chime in if you also ever had that subconscious thought as a kid about Cedar Rapids? Because I feel like that can't be.

[Em]

We can't be alone.

[Christine]

Because if you and I both had that. I, like, we've never isolated experience, and we've never discussed that. It has to be a more common thing. I don't know.

[Em]

I mean, it was. It was. Yeah. Please, please say something.

[Christine]

Like, something probably maybe we're all having effect about.

[Em]

If you're from Cedar Rapids and I missed something, write it below. So if I'm ever there again, I.

[Christine]

Have something to do a mile in where the giant Cedar Rapids fun park and aquarium in. And theme park water slide is. No, we missed that.

[Em]

Well, okay, I will say one fun thing about Cedar Rapids, which I do truly think was a fun fact, is that apparently they are either the only place or one of the only places that they have a. It must be like a General Mills or Kellogg's factory or something nearby that exclusively does Crunchberry like Captain Crunchberries.

[Christine]

Well, I saw a Quaker thing on their Wikipedia media.

[Em]

Well, so they.

[Christine]

Because they're as one of their employer, like top employers, is the Quaker. Is it Quaker Oats or.

[Em]

I don't know what it is, but they, like, exclusively do Crunch Berries. Oh, okay. That makes sense. Well, apparently if you drive by the factory, it, like, smells like Crunch Berries.

[Christine]

No way. And that's pretty cool.

[Em]

In the Chachki shops I did go to, there was like, crunch Berry stuff.

[Christine]

Oh, and that's cute.

[Em]

And I went to an ice cream place and, like, their main topping on everything was Crunch Berries. So, like, I appreciated that.

[Christine]

I love Crunch Berries. Yeah.

[Em]

I got a Mount Trash More shirt and I got a Crunchberry sticker. So that was the kind of. The highlight of it.

[Christine]

That's actually very cute because I. I love. But also that does incredibly fit into the exact mold of what I would have thought about Cedar Rapids. Like, if I had just believed everything I already thought about Cedar Rapids. And then somebody told me, also they have the Crunch Berry factory and the whole town smells like crunch berries. Like, that would have made it even more magical. You know, Willy Wonka's chocol. Like, wow, they even have ice cream with crunch berries on it. Like, it just sounds so magical.

[Em]

I totally agree. I would have been like, we're gonna go ride the Log Canyon Rapids.

[Christine]

Yes, yes.

[Em]

And then we're gonna.

[Christine]

The Milk river and then we're.

[Em]

Gonna eat crunch Berries.

[Christine]

Like it would have. It would have felt like it had to be part of it, but I think we just as a five year.

[Em]

Old and also it made sense. And Mount Ashburn, there's a playground made of garbage. Like, it's sad sounds. It sounds like a seven year old stream. So anyway, I'm trying to talk it up a little bit because I realized I poo pooed on it.

[Christine]

Yes, I understand. Well, I am happy to know because I did not know that about crunch Berries. And that's kind of a pretty fun fact. And it makes sense why Quaker Oats is a top employer there. So anyway, that's where Michelle was born. All right, I'll move to.

[Em]

Actually number two.

[Christine]

I actually haven't finished bullet number one. So I'll. I'll finish that. Finish that first. As you begin your second smoothie of the day. Is this one the one with kiwi in it?

[Em]

This is the one with kiwi.

[Christine]

Okay, great. Let us know if it's better or worse.

[Em]

Okay, I'll tell you right now. It's a little more tart. I think if I. I would recommend no kiwi when you start out. So it's blueberry. Blueberry bliss. Sub mango for. Or sub the banana for mango and add extra strawberries.

[Christine]

What if you put extra. I would do it with mango, but keep the banana. Do you would. Is that something you would eat or. No, I just think in a banana.

[Em]

I. Fine. I'm fine with bananas, but it just overpowers any smoothie. It's just like the first flavor you taste.

[Christine]

I think I like it. I think I like that part of it, but mango would sound good too, so. Michelle Martinko was born in 1961 in Cedar Rapids, Iowa. The youngest of two daughters. She grew up as a charismatic performer who excelled in things like choir, community theater. Her friends described her as very upbeat, very friendly family. On December 19, 1979, Michelle went to the Westdale Mall with about $180 in cash because she wanted to do some Christmas shopping. I know. And she also wanted to pick up a winter coat that her mom had bought for her. So at this point, she's 18. And, you know, when you're, like, 18, and you finally maybe have, like, a job or a little bit of cash, and you're like, I can buy Christmas presents for people. And it, like, feels so. So empowering in a way. Like, I can. I have my own money to spend, like, even a little bit. So I just love that she, like, went to the mall with some cash and was gonna buy her family Christmas gifts or her friends, but she also was going to pick up a winter coat that her mom put on layaway for her. So Michelle's friends described her as, like, a very girly girl, impeccably dressed. Like, she just always was put together. She liked to do her hair, makeup. She cared about her clothes. And so that night, she left for the mall from a holiday banquet with her high school choir. So she was even more dressed up than usual. She had, like, a beautiful, like, elegant black gown on. She was wearing high heels, and she was wearing a white jacket made of rabbit fur.

[Em]

Okay, girl. Wow.

[Christine]

I mean, it's the seventies, but still. Whoa.

[Em]

Rabbit fur. That's not trying to compare animals here, but, like, that take. That's a lot of rabbits to make a one. That feels a little Cruella de Vil.

[Christine]

Well, I mean, that's. I mean, a mink is very small. They're, like, this big.

[Em]

Really? I think up until this moment, I didn't know a mink was real, but I did know that their fur was real.

[Christine]

Oh, that's an interesting plot twist. We're just. We're unlearning a lot of things today, aren't we? Also, minks are very cute. You want to see one?

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Like, actually, you'll find them cute. And you know that that's like a high, high, high bar for M, because M does not like most things with tails that move. Or not most. Not with.

[Em]

Oh, if it. If. If the tail doesn't have fur, I won't like it. That's right.

[Christine]

Exactly.

[Em]

Very specific.

[Christine]

But isn't he cute?

[Em]

This is a little monkey face. So sweet.

[Christine]

See the fur? That's what they. They just slaughter him.

[Em]

Oh, well, now I'm sad. Okay, well, look at his little toes. His little beaky toes.

[Christine]

Isn't he cute.

[Em]

Oh, man. Man.

[Christine]

So anyway, yeah, she's made of. She's dressed in rabbit fur. And I do wonder when she went to the mall and her mom had put a coat on layaway for her. I'm like, was it a rabbit coat? Do they have that at Macy's? What's happening? I don't know. Maybe in the 70s. Yeah, could be. So anyway, she had gone from her choir event with her gown, her rabbit fur jacket and her high heels to the mall. And she didn't tell her parents where she planned to go after this banquet. So she didn't. They didn't know. So, like, they just assumed she had plans with friends. They didn't know where she was going. She decided to go to the mall. They weren't really worried about it. She's 18. She can drive. She can handle herself. So she was a high school senior, and it was just a few days till Christmas. She had recently turned 18, and it made sense for her to be out and about. But when the evening passed and it started to get late, her parents were like, okay, I know she had plans, but, like, she should be home by now. So Janet called around town to Michelle's friends. Janet's her mom. Uh, and the friend said, oh, she was going to the mall to meet up with some people. So nobody knew if, like. Like, who she was meeting up with, if she was meeting up with anyone. Or maybe she just went to the mall to pick something up and by herself. But her friend said, all we know is she was going to the mall after the banquet. So finally, her parents call the police when she doesn't come home. And it's 2am and they're saying, well, there's no way in hell she's still at the mall, which is closed by now, so something must be very wrong. So based on Michelle's probable plans at the mall, which is the only clue they really had, they focus their search in this area, which is called the Westdale area. So at 4am, which is two hours after they called the police, the search located the Martinko's 1972 Buick in the mall parking lot.

[Em]

So, yeah, so she never left the mall or. Well, got in her own car.

[Christine]

Right. The car is still at the mall, and it's outside of the jcp. Penny, Michelle was inside the car.

[Em]

Oh, man. I really didn't see that coming. I thought she was just gonna be missing. Missing.

[Christine]

Well, it feels like every time, especially with a cold case, we find an abandoned car. Often times there's nobody in it. So yeah, it is definitely a twist compared to the usual story.

[Em]

Front seat, back seat.

[Christine]

So she's slumped across the seats, covered in blood. She had been stabbed 29 times, times in her chest, arms, neck and face. That morning, Cedar Rapids local newspaper the Gazette ran a front page headline, CR student 18 slain alongside a big smiling photo of Michelle. In the article, police chief asked readers for virtually any information they might have about Michelle's final hours, down to who else in town parked at JCPenney's last night and may have seen something. So nobody knew who it had, who Michelle had seen that night, whether she had met up with someone at the mall. And they didn't even have for that reason, like a good estimate of her time of death because there's just no way to know like at what point she was actually killed. There were finger marks in the dirt on Michelle's car door, but there were no prints in it, which means the murderer wore gloves. So that was another way that they kind of faced a dead end. The police chief said they had no leads and the investigation was basically, quote, starting at ground zero zero. So in the following days, hundreds of people contacted the police with tips. And I feel like this is always very double edged sword because it's good people are calling in. But then there are so many like miss like red herring, misleading trails, they go down. And it turns out every single of these hundreds of leads was a dead end. So it's just like, doesn't it? And it's like just such a. Feels like such a waste of time. Even though it's the only way to find, find out if, if one of these leads is. Is real, then a friend and fellow actor shed light on Michelle's final hours. So Kurt Thomas had been in a school play with Michelle and he actually worked at the West Dale Mall. So he said he saw her there. I mean, it's hard to miss with that white rabbit coat. He said he had seen her at the mall the night before. And he said the two of us walked and talked around the mall for a while and then Michelle made her way to the end exit. So Kurt walked her to the door, watched her put on her coat before she said goodbye, and then headed out into the parking lot. Kurt said he didn't even know Michelle had been killed until police picked him up and brought him in for questioning because a friend who worked at the mall, and before he even knew what was going on, one of them leaned over his shoulder and asked, why did you kill her?

[Em]

Oh, that doesn't feel professional. But Maybe that's.

[Christine]

No. And it also. He had no idea she was even dead. Like, imagine that. Oh, my Lord.

[Em]

Oh, my God.

[Christine]

He insisted he had no idea what happened to Michelle, possibly just minutes after she left his site. But detectives were not convinced because this was still a little too close for their comfort. And so their suspicion remained on Kurt. But Michelle's family actually had another suspect in mind, which is of course one of Michelle's ex boyfriends. His name's Andy Seidel or Seidel. The brutality of the attack and its focus on Michelle's face made investigators believe that this could have been like a personal attack, which we've talked about, where sometimes people get their anger out in a very like vicious personal attack, especially with a knife related crime, by attacking the face or genitals or other body parts that might be like a personal attack. So Michelle had been diagnosed with scoliosis when she was 12 years old. And she actually had to wear a corrective brace from her hips all the way to her neck for two years. And you know, nowadays I feel like, of course that would make you feel, some kids at least feel like insecure. Conscious. Yeah, insecure. And she absolutely did. I imagine in the 70s especially like, you know, well, these days there's like.

[Em]

Plastics and Velcros and all these things. But back then it might have been like a big robotic metal.

[Christine]

Yeah, like where you had like gear like on a helmet. Right. So harder to hide. And also like, I think people were just a little more more traditional back then. And so she really, you know, felt kind of insecure about that. And it shook her confidence. And even once the brace was removed, she still didn't even really consider herself like a pretty girl. People said like she got so much male attention, but she didn't even realize it. Like she just was kind of not thinking of herself as like a desirable young woman. But a lot of boys found her very attractive and wanted her attention and she just like sometimes couldn't click that. And Andy, her ex, was one of these guys. So they had met when Michelle was 15 and they had dated for two years before a pretty volatile breakup. Michelle's brother in law said that after they broke up, Andy just wouldn't go away. He demanded to know what she was doing, where she was going, who she was with, whether she was dating someone. Just immediately. Toxic, abusive vibes here.

[Em]

Yeah, I would think it was him too.

[Christine]

His extreme possessiveness made Michelle's family suspect him immediately. And John said it seemed like a case of if I can't have her. No one can. So a friend said that this ex. This, like, abusive ex guy. A friend said that Andy, this abusive ex guy at the funeral, literally hurled himself on top of Michelle's cast basket at the funeral and cried. I have to know who she loved when she died. Did she love me or did she love Mike? Who did she love when she died? And it's like. And Mike was another guy she had dated. And it's like, back the off. Like, this is the young woman's funeral. It's not about you versus Mike right now. Isn't that gross?

[Em]

I. Yeah. 100.

[Christine]

The, like, go away. This isn't about you. Her. And also, like, siblings answer here.

[Em]

And also, like, didn't she break up with you? I think you know the answer. You know what I'm saying?

[Christine]

Yeah, exactly.

[Em]

And I want to know who she loved. Not you.

[Christine]

Not you anymore. And why bring like, to say me or Mike? Like, Jesus Christ. It's like, so twisted. So whether he did it or not, it's like, yuck, what a up. Whatever.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

So Mike Wyrick was another man Michelle had dated. Police questioned him and actually even forced him to look at crime scene photos, even though she had had. Or even though he had a. An alibi of being over 100 miles away. So it was, like, very traumatizing for him because he sat down, finds out Michelle's been killed, and then they immediately start showing him crime scene photos of his ex girlfriend dead, bloodied, murdered, stabbed 29 times. And he was quickly cleared, but then had to live with that image in his mind for the rest of his life. But Andy, they couldn't quite clear. Clear as quickly. Michelle's family and friends found his behavior toward Michelle before and after her death disturbing. And he was actually seen at the mall with Michelle the night she was killed.

[Em]

I don't know what that was.

[Christine]

I liked it, though. It felt exactly correct for the moment. It really nailed. I was like, yes, yes.

[Em]

It was my own. Now cut to commercial break. It was. Was. It was my.

[Christine]

Yes, yes. It was a good sting.

[Em]

Thank you. Thank you.

[Christine]

So he was even seen at the mall with Michelle the night she was killed. And his only alibi was that he was at home by the time the mall closed. And they were like, well, we don't even know when she was killed. So it's like, that's not really helpful. Good alibi. No. But Andy's mother was also the only one who could confirm his alibi. And police pretty regularly dismiss or at least don't take. Take Them with a grain of salt. A par A parents corroboration of an alibi.

[Em]

Right.

[Christine]

So despite the suspicion surrounding Andy and his like, past sketchy behavior, there was no physical evidence linking him to the crime. And once he graduated high school, he just left town and enlisted in the navy. And many people.

[Em]

Get me out of here.

[Christine]

Yeah, seriously. Much like, I mean, it was Cedar Rapids, you know, so he was, he.

[Em]

Was like, I've seen enough.

[Christine]

He's trying to get his way out of there since the he was born.

[Em]

He's trying to like, he's packing his bags and like crunchberry dust is flying off. It's like, I'm ready to get out of here and try some new cereal.

[Christine]

Eat my Captain crutch dust. Many people remain convinced that he would one day be arrested for the attack. And especially Michelle's mom really clung on to that and believed that he was at fault because she had been up front and center when this was all happening with their really toxic relationship. Relationship right now. Michelle was 12 years younger than her older sister and she was her parents miracle baby. That's a quote. Because she had been born healthy after her mother endured five miscarriages.

[Em]

Holy.

[Christine]

Yeah. And so, yeah, after, after all of this time, she was considered their miracle baby. They just adored her. Janelle said that Michelle and their mother were soul mates, which I just think is really beautiful. And after she was killed, Janet, her mother, could barely talk about Michelle. She said in an interview, think it will ever be solved?

[Em]

Wow.

[Christine]

With no arrests and with Andy gone, people in Cedar Rapids were just kind of left to like, ponder on their own as to the theories of who killed Michelle and why. Of course, the Marinkos, then living in town, just had to listen to all these baseless rumors, like people just gossiping about Michelle and drug rings or human trafficking or maybe she's still alive. Or maybe she ran away, you know, and got killed by some. Some pimp or you know, just like really upsetting stories that you're already in a bad place. You don't need to be hearing like rumors about. Founded rumors about your killed daughter. People made cruel prank calls to the Marinko's home because they thought it would just be funny. And so when Janet answered the phone, she heard laughing as the other person on the line said things like, mother, it's Michelle.

[Em]

Oh my God, that's so cruel.

[Christine]

I hope that person to this day.

[Em]

I hope they got hit by a bus for sure.

[Christine]

I hope they still are. Like, I. That was up because, yeah, I hope.

[Em]

They lose sleep over that. That's so insane.

[Christine]

Me too. Nearly a year after Michelle's death, a man named Dennis Lee McKee was convicted for breaking into a Cedar Rapids home and threatening to kill the children in the home before raping their mother at knife point.

[Em]

What?

[Christine]

Yes. Dennis committed that crime in November 1979, a month before Michelle's murder. Okay, so he had committed that crime a month before Michelle's murder. Now he was being convicted about a year later.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

A year after the murder, Just to clarify, Many suspected that he may have killed Michelle, and police did investigate him as a suspect, but that seemed to be another dead end.

[Em]

I don't think that was him. Which is like, I have nothing to go on.

[Christine]

I know, but.

[Em]

But it feels like the crime before Michelle would been the escalation after Michelle.

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah, it feels. It feels. And Michelle's feels more personal. One on one, targeted. Yeah.

[Em]

Like 29 stabbed wounds. Like.

[Christine]

And also, I don't believe she. Assault. Sexually assaulted, which, like, it seems like was the. Yeah, like the sec. The other crime was to rape the woman and threaten to kill the kids. But I don't. He didn't kill anyone in that house. Right. So I guess she technically would have been an escalation. Right, because.

[Em]

Oh, I guess so.

[Christine]

But they're two. They're totally, totally different MOs. Yeah, it's a completely different crime. So it doesn't.

[Em]

I think it was a boyfriend. I think.

[Christine]

I think that's a much better, much more realistic option at this point.

[Em]

Being angry that she broke up with him and just stabbing the. Out of her.

[Christine]

And it feels very. What's that word? Murphy's Law. Is that Murphy's Law? No. Occam's Razor. Both, I guess, apply oftentimes. But like the simplest solution. Simplest answer is often times what it is.

[Em]

Which is what last week's was too.

[Christine]

That's right. Yes, exactly. Very good point. So people thought maybe that this guy had something to do with it and he was another dead end. So the case went cold, and it basically haunted residents that this had never been solved and that it just. People had to keep just going on like nothing had happened. Unfortunately, Albert Martinko, her father, passed away in 1995, and then Janet in 1998. So Michelle's surviving friends and family honored her memory each year with a graveside vigil on the anniversary of her death. They remembered all the good things about her, like her charismatic laugh, what Kurt called the Michelle smile, which was just like she had a very distinct and happy smile. Years passed without answers until 2006 when a cold case detective announced that he had identified and collected collected the killer's blood from evidence stored in the case files for 27 years. The blood was discovered on Michelle's dress and on the gear shift column in the car where she had been killed. And it contained a complete DNA profile.

[Em]

Oh my God.

[Christine]

Isn't that beautiful? In 1979 they collected this evidence not knowing that one day we'd be able to be figured figure out the person's one in a bajillion identity based on that little drop of blood. It's amazing to me, I just, I can't wait in 30 years, 10 years, 5 years to see what people have developed.

[Em]

What's the next thing?

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah. Michelle's hands were covered in defensive wounds. Investigators had initially suspected she had been robbed or raped. But none of Michelle's cash was stolen. There was no evidence of physical trauma related to rape. In her autopsy, autopsy, one detective said, you have to assume that pretty much any motive you can think of was a possibility and that Michelle decided she wasn't going to allow that to happen. She fought. So essentially whether this person was planning to rape her, rob her, just kill her, she fought back. So whatever was the purpose, they did know that she, you know, herself. Yeah, the attacker had definitely been injured in the fight. Leaving behind this evidence, this blood that detectives didn't know about. In 1979, when the judicial system itself was still seven years away from the first use of DNA evidence in criminal court, the cold case detective collected DNA samples from as many people he could reasonably consider that may be involved with the case. To match them with the sample they got Andy and Kurt, both of them finally exonerated. Kurt was the friend at the mall. Andy was the loony ex boyfriend. Both were, yeah, both were exonerated. Ending what Kurt said was a decades long night nightmare.

[Em]

Yeah, I can't imagine being accused of something like that and having been the.

[Christine]

Last person to see her and being like, oh man, I watched her even like her car.

[Em]

And then imagine every time you make a new friend and you have to warn them, it's like just so you know, I look like if you google.

[Christine]

Me, serious person of interest or a person of interest in this. Yeah, oh boy. Good point. So he said he called it a decades long nightmare. So they were finally exonerated. And his name had often been mentioned in Janet's diary entries about her daughter's murder. And so it was just really hard for Kurt to be considered a suspect for so long when he really was just in the wrong place at the wrong time and being a good friend and walking her to the door, you know, he said he had been consumed by guilt over parting ways with Michelle at the exit that night. And he wished he had walked her to her car. You know, woulda, coulda, shoulda. Janelle said she wished she could personally apologize to Andy for outwardly believing that he had done this. Like, she had to go back and tell the ex, like, I'm sorry, I thought you were involved. I.

[Em]

That would be an awkward conversation.

[Christine]

Really awkward. Really awkward. But also like, he's still an.

[Em]

She had a justified reason to think it. Yeah, I guess. I don't know.

[Christine]

At least to not like him.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

After reviewing the case and pursuing leads for 10 years. Years. So that started in 06. Now it's 2015. The detective finally decided to pass it on to someone new. And by then, DNA technology in 2015 was even more advanced. And isn't it crazy? We're almost 10 or. Yeah, 10 years away from that now. 2015.

[Em]

That's wild.

[Christine]

Yeah. By then, DNA technology was even more advanced and the new detective partnered with a genomics lab to create a possible profile of the murderer using the DNA. And so they put this together. I find this so amazing. They put together a profile of somebody, a white man with blonde hair and blue eyes. But they were missing a lot of details like his age. So they released several images with different hairstyles, facial features and age progressions. And the detective said in an interview that they took calls about every blonde haired, blue eyed guy that ever walked the face of the earth and stepped foot in Iowa.

[Em]

Jesus Christ.

[Christine]

Which was another dead end. End. Then the case remained cold until 2018, when the notorious Golden State Killer, who seems to have, like, opened the floodgates for so many of these stories.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Was arrested after investigators found him using genetic genealogy. So the detective leading Michelle's case read an article, which always seems to have happened in this situation, on the arrest, and decided he would try the same method to pursue Michelle's killer. So the investigative team submitted the suspect CNA to a public database. I don't know if it was gen match or what, but it connected them to a woman in Washington state who.

[Em]

Hell, yeah, brother.

[Christine]

A distant cousin to the suspect. Beautiful. Then they spent months building a family tree toward the suspect and tracked down family members across the country on social media and even gravestones.

[Em]

That would have been my if. If we ever quit the podcast.

[Christine]

If we. We would. This is my.

[Em]

All I want to do is build, you know, I love ancestry and, you know, I love family trees. All I would want to do is build family trees for the police.

[Christine]

You know how for cold cases.

[Em]

Are you kidding me?

[Christine]

Involved. I would be. Can we just do that on the side? Yeah, somebody help us do that on the side. Because you and I would be an unstoppable force.

[Em]

I would. I would be a free intern. To be able to solve a crime like that.

[Christine]

The way that we fixate so aggressively and have such intense web sleuthing skills.

[Em]

I. I feel like between your everything and my building family tree.

[Christine]

No, no. But yeah, I really think we'd be. Make a powerhouse. So if somebody knows how to do that. I've tried. I've tried to join some, like, volunteer groups, but I feel like I've never really quite got the hang of it. I don't really know.

[Em]

Maybe you can embroider something for them.

[Christine]

I know I'm like, how do I insert myself? I don't know.

[Em]

How do I stitch a family tree together for you?

[Christine]

Nice. Hey, I can put it on my cricut machine. Does anyone need it in vinyl? So the suspect's relatives. Imagine getting this call over in Washington. You're a distant cousin to a murderer from decades ago. So the suspect's relatives provided DNA samples to aid the investigation. And finally, the search was narrowed down to Manchester, Iowa, which was a small town roughly an hour from Cedar Rapids. Brothers Jerry, Kenneth and Donald Burns grew up together in Manchester. Donald moved to Davenport, Iowa, while his brother still lived in Manchester, where they were well liked business owners. The detectives followed Kenneth to lunch at a golf club and collected his drinking straw once he left. They then staked out Donald's house in Davenport and picked his toothbrush out of the trash.

[Em]

That's sort of the most fun job in the whole world.

[Christine]

I'll do that part. Yeah, we'll probably go through a dumpster.

[Em]

Can you imagine us pretending to go to like a golf outing and just.

[Christine]

And we would dress up. We would totally. Can someone make a show about this? I would be. I. I would take it so seriously. I'm not around.

[Em]

I would actually love a game. A game show where people try to collect evidence from other contestants without them knowing. Like, like sneak a hair sample. Sneak a. Grab their straw. Grab their. You know.

[Christine]

Yeah. I feel like it would get a problematic really fast, but I.

[Em]

No, we have. We have legal deal with that.

[Christine]

No problems for us.

[Em]

Not problems for me.

[Christine]

Not our problem.

[Em]

Not for me.

[Christine]

So after they did this, the toothbrush and the golf club straw, neither brother matched the suspect's DNA sample. So they followed Jerry to lunch in Manchester, the third brother. And they collected DNA from the straw he drank after he left. It was. Maybe that's the burger place. Maybe he went to the burger place you went to. And that's why they make you wait an hour, because they're like, actually, the police might need your DNA. You don't sit here for a minute and drinking the straw.

[Em]

And they got a lot of my DNA because I left half that burger on the table.

[Christine]

Exactly.

[Em]

I got to go.

[Christine]

Exactly. So they followed him to lunch, they collected DNA from the straw he drank with, and it was a DNA match. They found him. They found him at lunch.

[Em]

I love when people sleuth to get an answer.

[Christine]

Can't believe it. On December 19, 2018, which was the 39th anniversary of Michelle's murder, the lead detective walked into the business Jerry owned and asked him if he knew Michelle Martinko. Imagine.

[Em]

Imagine the stomach drop, avoiding that name.

[Christine]

For 39 years after you did something terrible. And now somebody walks face to face with you and says, do you know this person?

[Em]

Did he just fess up immediately? You just go, yep, that's me.

[Christine]

He said, you want to know what he said?

[Em]

No. He's speaking riddles. Oh, no. Just no.

[Christine]

He said, no, I never heard of her. And they said, huh, that's weird. Give me a cheek swab. So he gave them one, and then he told Jerry that he knew the DNA would match. The policeman said this to Jerry and the. And asked Jerry once again if he knew about Michelle or her murder. And instead of saying no, he said, I was not there that night.

[Em]

That's the most Josh Duggar thing I've ever heard.

[Christine]

I know, I know, I know.

[Em]

What did you find on my. On my computer? Hopefully not child porn on all of these discs. Okay, well, I hope you didn't open.

[Christine]

The folder called taxes. That's really actually explicit material. Yeah. So they asked if he knew Michelle. I take on no. Well, we know that this DNA is going to match from the blood found at the murder scene. I wasn't there that night. I never met Michelle. It was true that police failed to find any connection between Michelle and Jerry, like social, business or otherwise. So without a connection, it would be difficult to establish a motive. And it was obvious Jerry wasn't prepared. Prepared to confess.

[Em]

And he might have really not known her name.

[Christine]

That's true. Right? Like, maybe he never met her, technically, and he was arrested that day for Michelle's murder, but this would be, like, a difficult case to Prove, basically, they had his blood and DNA, but that was the only real thing linking him to the crime. And while they could prove it was.

[Em]

His blood, it could have come from somewhere else.

[Christine]

Right.

[Em]

Like she could have bumped into him when he had.

[Christine]

Somebody could have tried. Some attorney could try to twist it, you know, and say it wasn't. He was thinking killer. So Jerry went on trial in February 2020, and his defense called a molecular biologist as a witness who testified that it was a distinct possibility that Jerry's DNA could have gotten on Michelle's dress and car interior by transfer. Jerry and his family had spent time in the mall before. So his defense attorney argued that Michelle may have picked up Jerry's DNA in the food court or someone else inside.

[Em]

I mean, like, as a very sick person. Right now, one sneeze and my DNA is all over somebody that's not your blood. That's true.

[Christine]

But on the gear shift of your car.

[Em]

Just trying to play lawyer, I still think you did it.

[Christine]

But, but the possibility was just so unlikely. Like, okay, yeah, his blood got on her sweater, on her jacket, on her.

[Em]

Car gear shift, especially without her noticing.

[Christine]

And, yeah, I. And. And then she was stabbed. Stabbed.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

After nobody else's blood got on her.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

So it just seemed too unlikely. Like, yeah, sure, maybe you bled all over the food court and she bumped into her with her white rabbit jacket. But I doubt it. Okay. After just three hours of deliberation, the jury declared Jerry Burns guilty of murder in the first degree. And he received the maximum punishment in Iowa, which was life in prison without parole. Now, Jerry's family was shocked because they didn't believe he was capable of the brutal attack. And his brother, mother and daughter still say, imagine the daughter say they have no idea and have no belief that he's capable of this. So I don't know, you know, maybe. Maybe it was a fluke, maybe, I don't know. But Michelle's family believes that Jerry was the killer. And when police told him, told the family that they had made an arrest, Janelle and John recalled whooping and hollering as just out of excitement and just closure, you know? The conviction and sentencing marked the end of a 41 year nightmare that haunted Michelle's family friends in all of Cedar Rapids. And with the case finally solved, everyone who knew Michelle could focus solely on her memory and everything about her that made her special to them. One friend said that her life wasn't defined by the way that she died, but by the way that she lived. She was very fun, loving, studious kind. She was a gifted singer with a beautiful voice. She just a beautiful musician and. And her friends and family still remember her for, you know, all the good she brought to the world.

[Em]

Nice.

[Christine]

But that's the story. So, you know, no longer a cold case, but still some. Still some debate over it.

[Em]

Yeah. That's a tricky one. Wow.

[Christine]

Well, how do you feel about Christmas?

[Em]

How do you feel about our Christmas episode, Christine?

[Christine]

I know I really did the usual. Huh. Where I. I just bummed everybody out.

[Em]

Yeah, but you've done it like 411 times, so I'm getting good.

[Christine]

Finally.

[Em]

Finally. Bye. We've got our next one is our New Year's one. Does that mean that we'll be in 2025?

[Christine]

Let me look. Nope. Our next one is the 29th, so it'll be our New Year's Eve. Ish.

[Em]

Interesting. Interesante. As I say. So we've got one more in 20, 20, 24. Okay, that's fine.

[Christine]

Okay. We don't have to freak out yet.

[Em]

No, no, no, no, no. But bring your paper bags next time to breathe into because I'll panic a little bit and I'll go. I'll contemplate the next year of my life.

[Christine]

Yeah, I'm gonna bring a barf bag. I'll try to bring something more than wood glue to drink next time, please.

[Em]

Yeah, if you would like to hear us blabber on even more, you can head on over to Patreon.

[Christine]

We are at patreon.com ATWD podcast. You can also go soon. That's why drink.com live. For tickets to our live tour, you can go to ATWDMerch.com to see our rotating seasonal merch that we update pretty regularly. We have some fun stuff on there that we don't promote nearly as often as we should. You can also find us at ATWD Podcast on all of our socials.

[Em]

And that's why we drink.