E412 Leona’s Ghost and High Definition Palm Sweat

Summary

And That's Why We Drink – Episode E412: Leona’s Ghost and High Definition Palm Sweat

Release Date: December 29, 2024
Hosts: Christine Schiefer (A) and Em Schulz (B)

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Introduction

In this chilling episode of And That's Why We Drink, hosts Christine Schiefer and Em Schulz delve into a tapestry of the supernatural and the sinister. From ghostly encounters to unexplained UFO sightings and a harrowing true crime case, listeners are taken on a gripping journey through the eerie and the terrifying. Grab your favorite drink and settle in for an unforgettable storytime.

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Leona’s Ghost and High Definition Palm Sweat

Timestamp: [04:30] – [09:42]

The episode opens with Christine recounting a spine-tingling experience involving her daughter, Leona. While organizing Leona's coloring supplies, Christine notices her daughter glancing nervously over her shoulder, whispering, "Where's that lady going?" This encounter leaves Christine on high alert, fearing the presence of a ghostly figure in their home.

Notable Quote:

• Christine: “It’s happening, it’s happening, everybody stay calm.” ([05:03])

Em supports Christine’s concerns, adding humor to lighten the tense moment but acknowledging the genuine fear they both feel.

Key Points:

• Christine sets up a high-definition camcorder to monitor any paranormal activity.
• Leona’s behavior suggests she might be interacting with an unseen presence.
• The mystery deepens as Leona refers to a "wife," a term not typically used by her.

---

Knowles Family UFO Incident

Timestamp: [18:07] – [50:30]

Transitioning from domestic hauntings to the vast skies, Christine and Em narrate the unsettling tale of the Knowles family’s UFO encounter in Australia’s Nullabar Plain. In 1988, while driving a 28-hour journey from Perth to Adelaide, the family witnesses a glowing, saucer-shaped light that appears to follow them.

Notable Quote:

• Em: “Everything I've ever imagined is happening right now.” ([05:34])

Key Points:

• Initial Sighting: Sean, the teenage driver, spots a bright light that seems to mimic their movements.
• Panic and Pursuit: Believing the light to be an ominous presence, Sean accelerates, but the UFO maintains its pace.
• Physical Effects: The family feels a heavy pressure as the UFO interacts with their vehicle, leading to a tire blowout.
• Investigation: After reporting the incident, evidence remains inconclusive, pointing towards natural phenomena like a superior mirage (fata morgana) rather than extraterrestrial activity.
• Corporate Involvement: Tire manufacturer Dunlop capitalizes on the incident with a humorous ad campaign, contrasting the family's traumatic experience.

Notable Quote:

• Christine: “I totally second guessing every time I thought I saw something.” ([53:32])

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True Crime Story: The Abduction and Murder of Paulie Kloss

Timestamp: [58:07] – [107:05]

The core of this episode focuses on the tragic and haunting case of 12-year-old Paulie Kloss, who was abducted and murdered in Petaluma, California, in 1993. The story unfolds with detailed accounts of the kidnapping, the ensuing investigation, and the eventual capture of the perpetrator.

Notable Quotes:

• Christine: “It was just so terrifying to hear what was happening to her.” ([58:40])
• Em: “I have goosecam. I just love Gene Boylan.” ([107:05])

Key Points:

1. The Slumber Party Attack:

   • On October 1, 1993, Paulie and her friends were preparing for a sleepover when a man armed with a knife barged into their home.
   • He coerced Paulie into leaving with him under the guise of searching for valuables, binding the other girls.

2. The Investigation:

   • Initial police response was hampered by lack of immediate community awareness and absence of an Amber Alert system.
   • The family’s hometown, Petaluma, was unprepared for such a violent crime, leading to widespread fear and confusion.

3. Breakthrough and Arrest:

   • Forensic artist Gene Boylan played a pivotal role by creating a detailed sketch that matched Richard Allen Davis, the abductor.
   • Advanced fingerprint technology helped link Davis to the crime scene, leading to his arrest and conviction.

4. Trial and Aftermath:

   • Davis was sentenced to death, though California's moratorium on the death penalty leaves his status uncertain.
   • Paulie’s family continues to grapple with the loss, advocating against harsh sentencing laws like the three strikes law, which they believe disproportionately affects marginalized communities.

5. Legacy and Healing:

   • Paulie’s sisters have launched a podcast, A New Legacy, aimed at redefining justice and promoting restorative solutions.
   • The case influenced legislation and public perception of criminal justice, highlighting the need for compassionate approaches.

Notable Quote:

• Em: “Her legacy is strong, but I'd trade it for a hug.” ([102:31])

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Conclusion

And That's Why We Drink Episode E412 masterfully intertwines tales of the supernatural with stark real-life horror, offering listeners a multifaceted exploration of fear and mystery. From ghostly whispers in the night to the vast, uncharted expanses of the Australian desert, and the heart-wrenching story of Paulie Kloss, Christine and Em deliver a compelling narrative that both chills and resonates deeply. This episode underscores the podcast’s commitment to unraveling the darkest corners of human experience, all while fostering a community of support and understanding.

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Note: For additional insights, behind-the-scenes discussions, and exclusive content, consider joining the And That's Why We Drink community on Patreon.

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Transcript

[A]

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[B]

It's all in the name.

[A]

When properly equipped, Max towing varies based on cargo vehicle configuration, accessories and number of passengers. Horsepower, torque, payload and towing are independent attributes and may not be achieved simultaneously. Horsepower and torque ratings based on premium fuel per SAEJ1349 standard. Your results may vary. Welcome to and that's why We Drink not and this Is why We Drink not and this is why I Drink not and that's why I Drink Not A TTWD there's been all sorts of iterations of our show, but it is a T W W D and we're here today to bring you the hard hitting news that we bring you every week. So thank you for joining us.

[B]

That was beautiful.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

Did someone recently it up again in front of you?

[A]

No, and I, I feel bad because it took me 10 years to figure out how what is what our show is called. So I'm not trying to critique anyone but it's. We had this wonderful tattoo artist named Ash who did my most recent little like Angel Numbers and my Mothman and, and she's just wonderful and she's so talented. But we did a show in San Diego and she made like a flash sheet for podcast listeners. And I like, I mean the gasps that came out of me when she showed me the iPad with all the like little drawings and they had this Capri sun which was my absolute favorite. And did you see it? Yeah, it's like a little Capri sun and it had atwd but it was like a I T. And I was like, what does that say? Like, I couldn't figure out what it said. And then I was like, duh. It's like. And that's why I drink. I think like she like put the wr. And so I was like, hey. And she's like, I knew I would fuck it up. It's so many words. And I was like, it's not you it's us. We made a podcast with like eight words. And my brothers, in my podcast also is a bajillion words. I don't know why I do this to myself.

[B]

Because you're a yapper.

[A]

I can't stop myself.

[B]

Anyway, you're trying to come up with a title of something, and you're just like, well, maybe it's this, this, and this. And I should just add.

[A]

I should just add a little more words, a little more description just to keep it.

[B]

Let me over explain just to make sure everyone understands that doesn't sound like me. I'm okay. I'm still recovering from my cold, and I think I'm losing my voice, so.

[A]

Oh, you'd be sexy like Phoebe Buffet babies.

[B]

Yes. Well, I'm worried because we have three days of recording to do, so.

[A]

We do have that. That is true.

[B]

Wondering how that's gonna look by the end. But for now, I've got my voice and that's that. I guess. I. I went to the wedding.

[A]

How was Deirdre's wedding? It feels very, like a milestone in the podcast.

[B]

It was a good wedding with good cake. That's all I care about.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I had only four bites, though. I got a small slice. I was not excited about that. But how about you? What'd you do since we last talked?

[A]

Well, I guess I'll just jump in and tell you why I drink, if that's okay.

[B]

Oh, sure. That's why I drink. That's why I drink.

[A]

By the way, that is why you drink, because you met some partners that were hopefully winners and were just duds. And we're gonna gossip about it in the Yappy Hour on Patreon. So anyone who feels connected to this story in any way whatsoever, besides me, let's go join on Patreon later and we'll discuss it after the show. Side note. Yeah? Why I drink. Actually, not. Side note, primary bullet point. It's happened. My heart is pounding. My palms are sweating. Leona said to me yesterday, I shit you not, she said, mommy, where's that lady going?

[B]

Please, Christine.

[A]

Like my. I don't know if you can see. You know how I told you I have a new camcorder set up my palm.

[B]

I'm like, high definition, sweat on your hands.

[A]

High 4K. Sweat beading on my face.

[B]

Where's that lady going? What was she. What was she looking?

[A]

So I told Blaze about this last night. We had a very intense conversation because Blaze was like, oh, no. Oh, no, oh, no. And I was like. He goes, well, maybe could there have been a reflection? And so then I, like, looked where she had been sitting, and I was like, nope, she was looking up the. So we're sitting in the little dining room, and I'm organizing her coloring supplies, and she's just, like, coloring on cat Rat. The. The cat. The. The villain from Gabby's dollhouse. And she's, like, coloring calling, and she kind of glances up, I shit you not, over my shoulder. And we just have, like, kind of the entryway in the big room there. And. Where's that lady going? And I was like. I was like, it's happening. It's happening, it's happening, it's happening. Everybody stay calm.

[B]

You sound like Eva when the car started losing gas.

[A]

Everything's happening now, and we're all just gonna sit.

[B]

Everything I've ever imagined is happening right now.

[A]

It's. We're coasting into hell. That was like, us in the car in New Hampshire, too. Just, like, slowly careening to our doom. And she's sitting there. She goes, where's that lady going? And I was like, who are you talking about? Which lady? And she's like, she's my friend. And I went, oh, boy.

[B]

No, she's not oh, boy.

[A]

And I said, of course. Well, is she nice to you? And Leona said, yes. And I said, okay. If you're ever uncomfortable around her, you just tell her that and you can tell me, but as long as she's nice to you and is as friendly or whatever, it's. It's okay. And she goes, please, I can't wait.

[B]

Say it. Say it slowly.

[A]

She goes, well, she's just the wife.

[B]

And I went, so beg your pardon?

[A]

And she has, like, a little lisp, right? And I saw. I'm like, she has what? She's a wedge. The. The life. And she goes, no, the wife. And I said, she's a wife. But, like, I. It didn't occur to me right away, because I'm like, that's not a word Leona uses. Really? Like, we don't. You. I mean, I'm sure she knows. What? Oh, I don't know if she knows what a wife is, but apparently. But she goes, yeah, she's the wife. And I'm like, whose wife? And she's like, the guy. And I was like, okay. So then I started asking questions like, oh, well, what are their names? And then she just started making up gibberish sounds, and I was like, okay, she's so annoying.

[B]

I need you to be on task, girl.

[A]

I know. I was like, focus, focus. But I do have an emergency voice memo button on the side of my phone, so when she starts talking, I just hit that button so I can verbatim hear what she's saying, because I don't want to, like, twist it later, because later I told Blaze a story, and I kept saying that Leona said, where. Where did that lady come from? Which sounds a lot scarier. But when I play, when I, like, really thought back, I was like, no, no, she didn't say that. She said, where is she going? And I was like, hopefully far, far away. But, yeah, I don't. I didn't know. And I said, what's she wearing? And Leona was like, I don't know. And so she just kind of stopped talking about it. But she was almost, like, sheepish to tell me, which was weird.

[B]

Like that.

[A]

Yeah. And she was, like, kind of shy about it. Almost like she's like, where's. Where's that lady going? You know?

[B]

Or maybe she was like, oh, like, we're talking about this too much. Like, maybe this is something supposed to not be so chill about.

[A]

Yeah, it was almost like she was like. She was like, hey, you know, my friend that we've never talked about? And I was like, what? Anyway, so it was a very strange encounter, and I don't know, she's also been getting much better at, like, imagining and pretend playing, so I'm like, maybe she invented some story. But for now, I am on high alert, and I've got my voice memo recording emergency button ready in case she says something else so that I can report back. But for now, the wife is doing okay.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And she could be in the room.

[B]

With you right now.

[A]

And how. What the hell would I even know Without Leona.

[B]

Have you said anything out loud to her?

[A]

No, I don't believe I have.

[B]

God, I would be screaming in every room and be like, girl, you can stay, but you got to be nice. It's about to get weird. We're gonna bring priests in. You better.

[A]

Look, I'm not bringing any priests into my home. I'm sorry. The. The. Something has to go extremely wrong before I bring a Catholic priest or any priest into my home. I'll tell you what. Anyway, so we're good over here. Just chilling, coloring, talking to our friends.

[B]

Obviously, you have to ask her to draw a picture of the lady.

[A]

Well, Liana doesn't know how to draw a picture of a circle, so I don't think we're gonna get very far.

[B]

With that failure as a parent. This is the exact moment she needs to know how to draw. This is what you should have been prepping her for.

[A]

Well, listen, the girl loves to draw. It's just she has her own method of doing so. And it's usually just scratching at the paper until holes form in it.

[B]

Oh, that sounds exactly like your kid.

[A]

Coloring walls and clothing. So I don't think we're gonna get very far with that. Except if you want to see a really nice scribble and then imagine maybe that's a lady in a Victorian dress, we could try that. But, yeah. Anyway, so that's why I drink as of yesterday.

[B]

You know, another reason why I drink is because I was realizing how far I've made it with Leona in terms of our relationship.

[A]

Really far.

[B]

Because Deirdre has a kid, and he is a year and a half, so he hasn't hit the sweet spot yet where I care. You know what I mean? I mean, I know that's mean to say, but also, like, I know I'm not good with him at this point, so I haven't made an effort. You know what I'm saying? But once he hits, like, 2ish, that's when I get my groove. And that's when all of a sudden, Funko M comes out.

[A]

I can't wait till you have a child. And you're like, I'm just gonna wait till it's 2, because right now, it's just not my thing. I do know I'm just not vibing with him until he's, like, can talk to me.

[B]

I do know. When I have a kid, we will have a rough patch until he's about 2, and I'll love him, but we won't be as close as we will later. I know where I stand. Allison can be the favorite for years, zero to two, and then for two.

[A]

To eternity, I'll be the one. Because you're obviously more removed. That's how.

[B]

Is that how it works?

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

We'll see then. It actually works out very well.

[A]

Honestly, it might be for the best.

[B]

But, no, all I. I'm not good with babies. I'm great with toddlers, and I. I know that that's where I'm firmly set. Um, Deirdre has a baby who has yet to become a toddler, and so him and I are not totally vibing. And I kept saying to her when we were hanging out, I was like, just wait. Just wait. Eventually it'll get there.

[A]

I promise. Someday this will be beautiful.

[B]

But not only is he a little baby, but he's Also a little baby who is also sick. And so that was a sick baby who I'm not bonding with.

[A]

And so I know how much you love germs.

[B]

I tried. Well, and also, like, who am I to talk? Like, I'm obviously sick, too, but it was a different sick, I guess. Anyway, I kept trying to hang out with him, and then he would sneeze, and I just go, oh, like, I look like the worst. I look like the worst person to be around a baby. I felt so bad. So, anyway, Deirdre, if you're listening, this is my. In advance. Just warning you again. Luca and I will be chill eventually. It just has to be a little later in time.

[A]

We just need. We need to get through our own.

[B]

Personal journeys and can confirm Leona and I were not close, and then we became very close. Right?

[A]

That's right. Yeah. You did show up in a whirlwind of toys and drawing and a lot of gummy bears and Frozen musicals.

[B]

So, yeah, bribery helps.

[A]

You swept her off her feet. One way to put it.

[B]

Bribery helps being able to relate to them with silly shows. That helps. Dance parties helps. But right now, he's just, like, kind of bumping into things there. He's kind of figuring it out, and. And once he figures it out, then we'll be fine. So I drink because I still feel awkward that my best friend, my childhood best friend's baby and I are not bonding. But I know in time.

[A]

Well, and also, like, it's weird if you're not just spending all the time with them. Like, if you were with the baby every day, you'd be like, oh. Or, like, see them every weekend for brunch. Or you'd be like, oh, I like, listen, I. I clock this baby. I know what we're about. But, like, yeah, you're probably both. Like, who the hell are you?

[B]

Yeah, I can't wait until I become the. The elusive random friend of the family who just brings gifts and leaves like I do with Leona.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, I told you. Elusive. I wish. Yeah, there's. I was just telling you that. That Leona calls everything a gift from Funko Lamb because, like, at this point, we don't know who gave. Well, I do, but she certainly doesn't care to know who gave her what. Everything's just from Funkle M. And then I said, oh, no, this one was from. And she goes, oh, no, that one was from Funkle Renee. And I went, okay, I guess we got Funko and Funkle Renee, and those are the only two you know, I.

[B]

Think Funkle is a title of honor where it means that you've hit a threshold. Others have not. So, yeah, if Renee has hit Funko, that's good for her.

[A]

I don't think she's thrilled about it, but.

[B]

Oh, that's okay. Well, sorry, Renee. Sorry that you're so good that you've been given a different rank. Whoops.

[A]

Hey, you should be happy because this means that you're gonna keep the sole title of Funkle.

[B]

Great. I can't wait. Anyway, so I'm excited to have another little kid to be friends with one day.

[A]

It's just Luca and Leona. I'm already planning their friends.

[B]

Every single baby I know starts with an L. Every single baby? Yes.

[A]

I thought you know one. Don't you know a named like Adele?

[B]

Oh, yeah, that one. But I'm. There's.

[A]

That was the only one I could think of. I'm trying to think of what other things.

[B]

Leo, Liam, Lily. They're all. It's.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is Leo Leona or Different Leo?

[B]

Different Luca. Leo, Leona, Liam, Lily.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Louis, Luke.

[A]

Lulu.

[B]

No, I was. I'm sure because I already say that name anyway. And then Adele. Okay.

[A]

I mean, listen, I know. I get it now. It's when I use it, all the babies I know, I'm like, I only know one other baby, you know, whose name does not start with an L. So I was not trying to play devil's advocate. I really was just trying to think of what babies you knew. But I don't know, the other ones.

[B]

It's. It's a lot of Ls. So.

[A]

Yeah. Yep. Yep.

[B]

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[A]

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[B]

And you know what? I wouldn't have my propranolol if it weren't for me crying to Christine one day and she said, don't even worry about it. You just gotta go over to ZocDoc and you will find someone like that. And not only that, I used your ZocDoc doctor.

[A]

That's right. I said, oh, you gotta find Dr. Java, she's on Zoc Doc. And I said, what are you saying to me? Are you having a stroke? I said, no, sit down. I gotta tell you about Zocdoc. And this was like 2017. So you know that this was something I've been using for a long time. Zocdoc is website where you can search and compare high quality in network doctors. Choose the right one for your needs and click to instantly book an appointment.

[B]

We're talking about in network appointments with more than a hundred thousand health care providers across every specialty from mental health to dental health, eye care to skin care, and much more. Plus, Zoc Doc appointments happen fast, typically within 24 to 72 hours of booking. You can even score same day appointments, man.

[A]

I've done that a lot of times and the fact that it's online is wonderful because there's no need to call and talk on the phone, which wouldn't you know, it is my least favorite thing to do in the whole wide world. So stop putting off those doctor's appointments and go to Zocdoc.com drink to find an instantly book a top rated doctor today.

[B]

That's Z O c d o c.com drink zocdoc.com drink Anyway, I have a story for you before my voice totally dims. Like the. The candle at the end of Hanukkah.

[A]

Oh. Oh no.

[B]

I feel like the family's just gathering around as I slowly fade away.

[A]

You're like decrepit. You're just falling into pieces.

[B]

Everyone's am that I'm still here at all. It's been like eight days.

[A]

My voice, honestly, we're all kind of getting over it. We're like, okay.

[B]

It's like, honestly, if it were dark in here, it'd be better. Yeah.

[A]

Why is this about you again? Honestly, Again.

[B]

Okay, let's see if I can get through this. I honestly don't know. I'm telling you in advance, I'm sorry about my voice.

[A]

Can't wait to see what happens if you don't get through it. I don't know what that means, but I'm really looking forward to Finding out.

[B]

Well, I feel like my voice is just starting to sound like a. A printer that's running out of ink. It's just.

[A]

Oh, the toner. It's just like the. Yeah, the lines. Yeah. So pink.

[B]

While we've got the chance, let me tell you a UFO story. This is the Knowles family UFO incident.

[A]

I don't know this one. I don't. Knowles. This one.

[B]

Now. That's good.

[A]

Thanks. I worked on it for days.

[B]

Did you? Oh, no.

[A]

It's happening.

[B]

Oh, boy. Okay, quickly. We're in Australia. Do I have one? I don't have one.

[A]

What the hell?

[B]

Did you just unzip my bag of goodies?

[A]

Oh, my God. All of a sudden, M literally just looks down 1 inch and unzips something and goes, nope, no Ricola. I'm like, what are you looking inside your kangaroo pouch? What's happening? You just have like a bag of goodies in your lap up.

[B]

I do have. It's my bag of medicinal goods. Oh, I know. You'd like to go fishing in there, I bet.

[A]

Gonna say I would. Except you said you lost your Xanax and you can't find a Ricola, so what use is that bag to me ever?

[B]

A lot of reasons to drink today, I think. Yeah. Okay. We're in Australia. We're with the Knowles family. It is a mom and her three adult sons. Her name is Faye and her sons are Patrick, Sean, and Wayne. And when I say adults, I mean, like around college age.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And apparently their two dogs are in this car as well. They're all driving.

[A]

Damn.

[B]

And they're driving from Perth to Adelaide, which is a long drive, let's put it that way. A long, long drive across the country is how it seems.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And they're driving through this area called the Nullabar Plain, which is essentially this long, isolated stretch of like desert road. Like it's just like highway or Route 66. Kind of like it just looks like you're driving through nothing. And this is in 1988. Different sources said it was between 1:45 in the morning to like 5:30 in the morning.

[A]

What are they doing?

[B]

It's a wide stretch.

[A]

Why are they all in the car?

[B]

They're driving.

[A]

Why at four in the morning or three in the morning?

[B]

I think one. One source was like, oh, they just need to get out of town. And another one was like, they're literally moving. And another one, I feel like moving.

[A]

Is the only thing that makes sense because I just looked it up. It's literally a 28 hour drive.

[B]

What I'm saying across country.

[A]

It's not across the country, which is the craziest part. It's literally just like this. That's how big this motherfucking country is apparently. Shit. Okay, so it's down the coast, I see 28 hours. And it's not even all the way across the GD country. It's a straight shot, 28 hours. Which by the way, folks, 2700 kilometers about. Yeah, so you'd be. So they probably. They must be moving or, or going on some big trip because why would you bring all your brothers and your dogs?

[B]

And your dogs.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, okay. Sorry. When you said like two one in the morning, I was like, what are they doing out there?

[B]

And one article said it was. They were driving to Melbourne, which is apparently like another eight hours. So.

[A]

God's sake, these people, it's a big country.

[B]

So they're driving to Adelaide. They're driving through the Null Null Arbor Nullaber plane. And it's somewhere in the middle of the night. Most sources said around like three in the morning. And this event allegedly lasted 90 minutes. I don't believe that because it sounds like it was a really quick experience. But also they lost time.

[A]

Time.

[B]

I guess that would make it 90 minutes. Yeah. But Sean is the 21 year olds in the car he was driving at this point. And when he was driving, he sees this big bright glowing ball ahead of them. And the light was bright white, it had yellow in the center. And the light was kind of jumping up and down a bit like it was almost bouncing over the road. And the light began to come towards them, which seemed like, oh, it's after us. But then he realized it looked like it was almost following a car that was passing them. Does that make sense? So it's like coming at them, but really it's a car. It's a car passing them and it's following.

[A]

But it was coming at them from behind. They thought it was.

[B]

No, like if you're driving and you're looking ahead and the light is there and it's coming towards you, it looks like it's coming at your car. But it was the fact that there was another car on the side of the road that was passing them.

[A]

Oh, on. In the other direction.

[B]

In the other direction.

[A]

Oh, I see. Okay. Okay, gotcha.

[B]

So although it looked like it was coming at them, it was actually following another car going the opposite way.

[A]

Got it, got it, got it.

[B]

And so for a second they panic because they're like, ah, there's this light coming at us. Then it passes by as another truck does. And some stories said that Sean got curious and did a U turn to, like, follow the light because he wanted to know, like, what this thing was and where it was going. Other stories say that they minded their damn business, but the light itself didn't even turn.

[A]

That would be my big fear. Like, please, please don't notice me. Please don't notice me. Just keep following that truck. I'm sure there's really exciting, like, frozen shrimp in there or thing you could find. But please leave us out of it. I don't know. Leave us out of it.

[B]

But, yeah, so I'm going to go with the light does a U turn and follow. And Sean obviously starts freaking out. He, like, he's doing that thing where he's trying to pay attention to the road, but he's also looking in the rearview mirror and he's like, oh, my God. Oh, my God. And it's. He's kind of trying to subtly start speeding up. Subtly maybe, like, maybe I'll just move.

[A]

Maybe it's not for us.

[B]

And guess what? The light is keeping pace with the car. Eventually catching up with them. Sean starts freaking out. He's driving a little faster. The thing can keep up with them. Eventually. Sean is like, pedal to the metal. He's driving as fast as he can because he's like, if this. What the. Get this thing away from me. Like, can another car pass so it gets distracted by that thing. He starts panicking. He's now driving about 125 miles an hour, like, flooring his car. I wonder if his family's awake at this point. I feel like I would wake up if the car was moving that fast.

[A]

But maybe I would wake also if I were driving. I would wake everyone up.

[B]

Yeah, I'd be like, guys, can you keep an eye on that thing?

[A]

You brothers of mine, I've been driving all night. Wake the up and help me figure out what to do.

[B]

Well, so the light, obviously, it's growing bigger as it approaches them. And eventually it's right on them. And when I say on them, I mean it's literally hovering over their car while they're driving. Driving 125 miles an hour, and it's keeping pace. The whole family at this point is awake. And I imagine it's just screams in that car. The poor dogs.

[A]

The dogs. Oh, no.

[B]

And the whole family all of a sudden feels the car shift and this heaviness pressing into the roof of their car. And they realize that whatever this light is it is now grabbing their car.

[A]

So they're like, getting, like, the claw. Like, cha chunk. The claw gonna pick you up. Oh, my God, my nightmare.

[B]

And the heaviness pressing down into the roof of their car is like the heavy, the weight of this thing pressing into ground.

[A]

Absolutely not. Absolutely not.

[B]

They hear this loud clunking sound. Probably a big ass claw grabbing their car. And Sean can no longer control the car. And not in a way where, like, they're swerving, but, like, he's literally staring at the car.

[A]

There's nothing happening.

[B]

So in theory, that means the car is off of the road.

[A]

Like, imagine it's like you're a. In a toy. Like, it's like, oh, somebody, like, some big kid, like, picked up your toy and lifted you in the air, and suddenly your wheels are just spinning. Like, it feels like you're nothing more than just a little plaything.

[B]

Yes. An object to be used. Yes. But. So he's trying to drive. Car is not doing anything. And so the car's, as far as we know, being picked up into the air. And I don't know what makes her think to do this, but Faye, the mom, she rolls down the window to try to swat away whatever's grabbing their car.

[A]

I didn't remember the mom was in there too. Jesus. So they're all in there? Okay.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, I would be scared too. Like, I'd be normally scared if it was just me, but also, if it were my mom, I'd feel this extra sense of, like, want to protect them. And I'm feeling the same way about her kids.

[A]

And also, if the mom is scared, there's an extra element of, like, oh, even mom doesn't know what the to do. Now we're really screwed.

[B]

So Fay rolls down the window. She tries to swat away this thing, grabbing the car, which straight out of a horror movie. Dumbest thing you can do because it's gonna, like, rip your arm off or some, I would think.

[A]

I mean, swatting at it probably won't work. Although I imagine this was probably a instinctual response.

[B]

Yes. Which is weird because my instinctual response is fetal position.

[A]

No. I was about to say I would have crawled onto the floor of the car and rol a ball, but I know. I love that she's like, I'll get him.

[B]

So the dark. There's this dark smoke that billows in when she rolls down the window.

[A]

Oh, no.

[B]

And so now also, thank God, almost you can't drive, because can you imagine trying to drive through black smoke? Yeah.

[A]

Then you're all screwed.

[B]

The. The smoke also had a decomposing smell.

[A]

Good.

[B]

That came pouring into the windows. And when she stuck her hand out of the car and on top of the roof to swat this thing away, she felt something spongy.

[A]

Okay. But. So I'm so glad she did. I know I bitched about it already, but I'm so glad she did do it, because how would we even know that? Like, that's such a creepy, fascinating, spongy tidbit. Spongy.

[B]

So much worse than whatever I thought it was.

[A]

So much worse. Like.

[B]

Like. So is it wet? Spongy.

[A]

Oh, on top of the. Like, what does it mean? Is that it's how it. Like adhesive. Is that the adhesive they use?

[B]

Yeah. Or is it like a suction cup that she's feeling, you know?

[A]

Suction cup? Ye.

[B]

Yeah. So the family.

[A]

Worse than the claw.

[B]

I know. I was like, if it were metal, at least I saw that coming.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So the family heard this high pitched buzzing in the car, and they think it might have been the machine grabbing their car and, like, the metal on metal maybe making a rattling or something. But they hear this high pitch buzzing in the car. It causes them to feel really disoriented and they don't know if it's like a pressure change or something. But soon they hear their own voices being distorted.

[A]

Oh, what?

[B]

They realize that their voices are slowing down and their screams sound like.

[A]

Ew, Emma.

[B]

Terrifying. Also, does that actually give us confirmation of time stopping that.

[A]

Well, I was gonna say that I was like, it sounds like that thing where it's like hyperspeed and so you feel like everything's really slow.

[B]

Yeah. Or when they say, like. Like you lose time with an alien, is it like, do you can. Did they actually. Do they have a memory of the time being manipulated and that was the.

[A]

Moment that it was getting, like, adjusted.

[B]

And it. That's when they felt like they were disoriented and everything started feeling distorted and slowing down.

[A]

Yuck. That's so. Dude, that's so unsettling.

[B]

One of them. I think it was Fay. It might have been one of the sons. One of them said, in this moment, it felt like my brain was being sucked out. No, it felt like something was going into our heads. And then they said they felt like they were dying, and this is when they lose track of time.

[A]

What the.

[B]

Dude, Feeling your brain get sucked out is crazy.

[A]

What a very specific and absolutely horrific thing to describe.

[B]

And you know what is so toxic about me is that I. I believe I Know what that feels like? I got. It's like I hear brain getting sucked out and I'm like, oh, I can imagine.

[A]

I get it. That happens to me every day. What's the big deal?

[B]

Like, I don't know why. I think I.

[A]

One time I got hand, foot and mouth disease, guys. So I think I can handle it.

[B]

And to this day, I do believe that's true. I can handle most things after that.

[A]

I'm fully aware. I. I'm saying none of this with any sort of irony whatsoever.

[B]

Worst, worst week of my life. Or one of them, certainly.

[A]

Okay, let's hold. Let's hope that that remains the worst week of your life.

[B]

I can't wait that to. To your little baby and go, look what you've done to me. Look what you.

[A]

Yeah, well, I'm sure she's gonna feel absolutely terrible.

[B]

I'll play. She's emotional.

[A]

You can play my childbirth video after. And then you can try to complain again. Look what you did to me. Yeah.

[B]

You know what's toxic about me?

[A]

Yeah. But anyway, you can tell me if you'd. If you'd rather. Go ahead.

[B]

I feel like that hand, foot and mouth disease absolutely equates to birth, obviously. Yeah. The labor and hand, foot, mouth disease. Same experience.

[A]

I'm just so glad we're finally getting it out on audio for recording so I can listen back and feel like I'm not absolutely losing my mind.

[B]

Certainly the same mental torment, at least.

[A]

Certainly the exact same.

[B]

At very, very least. Yeah.

[A]

Certainly the lasting damage and the psychological damage. Yeah. It's all pretty much the same, I would say.

[B]

I. I agree. 100. Don't show this to your therapist, though, because she'll say that we should. I wouldn't have friends.

[A]

I would never. I would never do that. That. So I know better by now being friends with you this long to keep me in hiding. Yeah, I know. I know better than to just display the things that you do and say.

[B]

I had some wild thought recently, and I was like, oh, that's too far. I was like, that's too.

[A]

I love that. You should get one of these shadow journal books because you can write whatever you want in there. And it's supposed to be.

[B]

The awareness is kicking in, folks. Don't worry.

[A]

Isn't that fun?

[B]

So they're blacked out, it seems, and just. That's how I felt after you gave birth and I had hand, foot, mouth disease. So.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I had to care for all of.

[B]

You, so it was really scary day for me. Not you, though. But no, no, I was just.

[A]

I was just trying my best to help out.

[B]

You're having a parade over there. You were having an easy, breezy day.

[A]

I was on. I mean, I was on drugs. Prescription from Jealous. Yeah. So things were not as bad as they could seem.

[B]

They. Okay, so they hear voices distorting and they feel the car getting picked up. They feel something spongy on top. Their brains are getting sucked out, which we all know how that feels.

[A]

Sure, sure. We've all been there.

[B]

And next thing they knew, the ufo, I'm assuming at this point is what it is. The UFO is violently shaking the car. So it really had a trust in its own grip on that car. It was like, now I'm gonna shake it.

[A]

Like, get your hand off the suction cup.

[B]

Like, I'm Darla and this is a bag of fish, right?

[A]

It is Darla. Oh, my God, you're right.

[B]

And honestly, if they were blacked out or their brains were getting sucked out and they were incapacitated, they probably looked like the fish in that bag.

[A]

Yes, they sure did.

[B]

So maybe the UFOs, like, why are you sleeping?

[A]

Wake up, wake up. Knock, knock, knock.

[B]

And then, although they felt the car violently shaking, which maybe because they were. I'm guessing they were either they were blacked out or they were kind of losing consciousness. That's how I'm understanding it. Maybe the. The car being violently shaken actually did kind of bring them back. Because the next thing they remember is the car's wheels making contact with the ground again.

[A]

Oh, so maybe that was like their wake up call.

[B]

Maybe. What a bad wake up call.

[A]

Good morning.

[B]

Hello. But the thing is, when they remember the car's wheels making contact with the ground again, the heavy handedness of the UFO pressing the car back into the ground caused one of the tires to blow out.

[A]

Oh, my God. So it is like, darlin, she just popped the bag on the way down. Yes, she dropped it on the concrete. Great.

[B]

Exactly. Because, I mean, I guess if the ufo, like, doesn't know how gingerly it has to put the car back down. If it presses too hard, then boom. Right.

[A]

You know, it makes sense that it would just like, smash it down by accident.

[B]

And. And after that, the UFO disappeared. So. But here's the thing, because I hear tire blowout and I think, oh, my God, they're for sure gonna, like, swerve everywhere and die.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But Sean somehow regains control of the car.

[A]

They were still moving. Oh, I thought, like, they just set them down and, like, on the side of the road?

[B]

No, I guess the whole time the UFO is moving and this whole thing happened.

[A]

What the is that for?

[B]

So that's.

[A]

They were gonna do that to a semi truck.

[B]

I know. Well, that shows you how strong it must be. Yeah.

[A]

That's a little thing. Maybe it was like. That's an easier target. Let's turn around.

[B]

It's bigger. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Or it's smaller. So maybe. Sean, the thing I'm most blown away by is that, like, if the car was still moving at 125 miles an hour, and then they put the car down and the tire blew out, like you're having a blowout at 125 miles an hour. Like, your car should be all over the place and everyone should be dead. Right?

[A]

125 miles per hour.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Not kilometers per hour.

[B]

No, it was 200 kilometers per hour.

[A]

Jesus. Why are they going so fast? Because, remember from the thing?

[B]

Yeah. They were trying to get away from it, then they got picked up, and when they regained consciousness, they were still going that fast, and they put the car down and the tire blew out.

[A]

That's just crazy. I mean, but if a tire. Well, you could have still the wheel intact and still drive. I mean, I've had tires blow out on the highway, and it's like, you can. You don't necessarily. I mean, if I had just been thrown out of a ufo. Yeah. Maybe I'd swerve. But, like, I think just the tire popping, you could probably maintain.

[B]

Well, somehow Sean did. So he regained control of the car. The car stops, I guess, in the middle of the road, and the family just runs out of the car. They're like, get the out. And they're in the middle of, like, a remote stretch of desert, basically. So they don't have anywhere to go, but they hide behind bushes for, like, 15 minutes. Part of me is like, you gotta.

[A]

Think that the aliens were, like, these humans, really. We just pick them up with a giant spongy suction cup, and now they're hiding behind a bush.

[B]

Like, they think we can't see them behind one bush in a big, vast desert.

[A]

Sad. It feels like a little mouse who got scared and, like, ran to hide under a book. You know what I mean?

[B]

Like, yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Oh, my God, it's so cringey.

[B]

Part of me is like, did the dogs also know to hide behind the bush? Or, like, are they just running in circles doing.

[A]

Were the dogs, like, weeping?

[B]

Okay, so they. So they hid behind the bush for, like, 15 minutes. And when they felt like the UFO probably wasn't going to come back. Which, like, I guess if there's nothing but sky, I guess you can take a look around and guess.

[A]

And hopefully it's like coming up on morning, like maybe when the sun comes up, you feel less afraid.

[B]

Yeah, that's true. And keep in mind, they don't even. They had a blowout. They don't get to just speed away. They have to fix a fucking tire, too, which takes its own 15 minutes. So they fix the tire and they drive off to the first stop they can find. And it's this local roadhouse where they tell the staff what they saw. And other truckers who were there claim to have also seen bright lights that night. And they're like, oh, yeah, something was for sure going on. The family then drove to the police station or the next police station they could find. I think it was a town called Seduna. And they go to the police station, they report their experience. The truckers and cops later both confirmed that the family's car was dented and covered in a weird, dusty ash. And the family was. And the family was super shaken. So that's truckers.

[A]

And the car was going like this. Their brains are all scrambled.

[B]

That's a good point. It's like. Well, they're literally shaken. Yeah, the truckers said that, I guess when they went to the roadhouse, the truckers looked around their car first before they went to the cops. And the truckers also said that the car smelled like a fuse had blown.

[A]

Oh, weird.

[B]

And the light that they had seen in the sky apparently looked like a giant upside down fried egg.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Which kind of makes sense because the family described the light as yellow or white with yellow in the center, which would be a fried egg.

[A]

You're so right. And it has that saucer shape. Like the yolk is kind of the bottom of the saucer. Wow. Weird.

[B]

And I guess they all confirmed that they saw the same lights. And then there was some, like, fishing boat at some point who later also confirmed they saw the lights. So the lights were very documented that night. And the trucker said that the car smelled like a fuse had blown. The story broke the next day after they told the police. And the police, by the way, I. I want to say that they took it seriously. They didn't do, like, a thorough investigation, but they at the very least believed the family.

[A]

I mean, that's already more than that, more than happens sometimes in my crime stories.

[B]

So, yeah, yeah, they even. The police were later interviewed and they were like, they were so Shaken. There was no reason for us to not believe them. Plus the fact that there were so many other corroborating witnesses about seeing something out there.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So the cops at least believe them. But then they were like, there's nothing we can do. And they suggested the family go to, like. Like, UFO research teams, which. Okay, like, I have that on speed dial.

[A]

I mean, listen, maybe they had connects. They could hand over a business card or two. I bet the police know.

[B]

Yeah, I'm sure they had somebody. I mean, people did come out and look for them.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Or investigate for them. And when the story broke the next day, within, like, 36 hours, they were on television being interviewed.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

What's interesting is that in one article, Faye said that they got no money for this, but then another article said that got five grand. So it doesn't matter. It adds nothing to the story. But fun fact. There's different versions.

[A]

Just debate over whether or not, yeah, they got paid.

[B]

They also, like, some bunk PR group promised to, like, make them rich after this, and, like, oh, we're gonna do talk shows and we're gonna auction off your car and blah, blah. But then nothing ever came from it. I think they actually also lost their car to that group group. Like, they like the car. They said, give us the car, and we'll do promotionals with it.

[A]

What the. That's messed up.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So they just took advantage.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So anyway, the police did seem to believe them. They let UFO research teams handle the case. The teams found evidence of the event, and. And the police even later said in an interview that they saw blood on the ground where one of the boys said that they scraped themselves on the asphalt. So nobody doubted that the family went through something.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And nobody doubted that the family believed it. In fact, most people that have been interviewed about this case, 100 believe the family because most of the people that they interviewed were truckers in the area. Oh. Who have all seen weird in the middle of the night on this road.

[A]

Really fortunate, you know, that other. Because I feel like so many times this happens, and they just become a laughing stock. But I'm glad that at least, like. Like, I mean, if you're gonna have somebody on your side, it's like truckers, law enforcement, like, people who don't. Like military people who don't around. So.

[B]

Yeah. And a lot of them said, oh, I've seen some weird out there. I totally believe that they saw something.

[A]

Totally.

[B]

So that was refreshing to hear.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But upon investigation, the results seem very inconclusive. And Even if they. Even if everyone believes that the family believes they went through something, there's no real evidence that they did go through something. So the car, it did have a bunch of dents on it. In fact, it had, like, four dents that looked like a grabber could have picked up the car on the roof.

[A]

Okay, that's weird. That's okay.

[B]

Some versions of this. Of the theories of this ufo, think that, like, they were picked up by magnets. And so it also looks like maybe magnets picked it up at all four corners of the car. But. But police also determined that the marks could have just been from a previous roof rack that was on the car. So that kind of. Yeah, that feels.

[A]

Of all things. That's like, oh, okay. Yeah, never mind.

[B]

Really took away from the believability.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Then later, when looking at the blown tire, they didn't see any signs of it popping because it was, like, pressed into the ground. They think it was just because Sean was driving a car at over 100 miles an hour, and those tires weren't built to withstand them. That.

[A]

Oh. So, like. Okay, okay. So whether or not it happened, it's almost like, well, the tire could have just been blown out from the speed.

[B]

Yeah. So I guess. Which makes sense, but I guess tires have different speed ratings, and they had a 1984. I didn't write the name down of. But they. They looked at the tire that was literally on their car, and it had a speed rating of, like, up to 100 miles an hour.

[A]

I mean, I imagine most cars from that, especially from that time period, like, if it's an older car back then.

[B]

Yeah. Unless you're, like, drag racing or something. If anything, it's more interesting to me that they were able to go over 100 miles an hour and the car and Sean could stop the car mid blowout. That's more interesting to me. But nobody seemed to care about that. Also, when they were asked later if the car lifted off the ground, they said, we think so, instead of yes. And that seemed to, like, really do a number on their credibility. But they were also saying, like, we were mid panic. Like, we didn't know what was going on. Like, we remember feeling like we got lifted off the ground, but we didn't see ourselves.

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

Yeah, it's like we didn't see ourselves take off into the night. Like, I don't know, but we think so. So that seemed to take away from their story. And then as for the weird ashy dust that was all over the car.

[A]

Gonna ask about that.

[B]

The Australian Mineral Development Lab and some UFO research teams, they all took samples and analyzed it. They said that the dust was just consistent with the type of outside dust in that area. So the car was just dusty, I guess in that specific nullabur that the area I was just talking about where it's like the desert, apparently it's higher in salts. And most of the particles that they found in the dust were salts. They also found traces of astatine or astatine, which some people were like freaking out about that because oh, it's astatine and apparently it's radioactive and that means it's a ufo. But despite it actually yes, it is somewhat radioactive. It does show up naturally around decay. And remember there was a smell of decomposition. So they might have just driven past something and some acetone got on the car. Also those two elements of. Or salt and acetine. Because they were in the dust. Some people pushed the narrative that this dust was from a carbonaceous meteorite.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Because between that type of dust, the car shaking, vehicle damage, the bright light that they saw and that type of smell, they thought that that all added up to a meteorite. But it's unlikely because no one saw a meteor anywhere.

[A]

Well that would be wild if like oh, it's not aliens. It's a meteorite that hit the car and nobody else saw it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Survived as remarkable as an alien abduction. Like it's pretty much as shocking.

[B]

It. It hit your car so violently that everyone shook and passed and your brains almost fell out.

[A]

But don't worry, there's just a little bit of dust. Dust like Jesus Christ.

[B]

So most realistically the ash and that burning smell because they were saying it smell like decay. But then the other guy said after the fact it smelled like a fuse had blown. Between the dust and the smell. It could have just burned. Been a burnt out brake lining from when they tried stopping the car at such high speeds. Oh, okay, okay. And the tire blowing out would explain the violent shaking on the car endured. And the sensation of the car being dropped because it probably just felt like the. A hit a pothole or something. Because the tire blew out.

[A]

Oh yeah. I guess the shaking. Yeah, that would make sense.

[B]

The.

[A]

I suppose.

[B]

I suppose if I must. The dust was also later tested again. And it was just essentially standard dust from that area that they were driving through. They even just called it road grime.

[A]

Cute.

[B]

I know the main argument that the family had because I. I kind of, I guess skipped over this. But a huge part of the. The beginning of the story is this bright light that they keep seeing, and it's jumping everywhere.

[A]

And like, other people saw it, right? Or saw a light.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. So the main argument that the family and witnesses all shared was these massive lights that appeared on the road. And the main theory is that this was a superior mirage, AKA, I guess in Australia, they've been known as min min lights, but it's also an optical illusion called fata morgana.

[A]

Whoa.

[B]

And this illusion, I'll. I'll show you a picture of another example of a fata morgana. Hang on. Okay, so I'm sending you a picture.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

To Gio's trio.

[A]

I. I feel like I've heard the phrase superior mirage before. Oh, I see. Okay. Where something looks like it's floating.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Almost. Okay. Okay. Wow.

[B]

So I obviously am no scientist, but the way that this works, or this is the best description I can give you is that, first of all, it's a very rare illusion. It only happens during very specific conditions. But one of those conditions has to be a weather condition called a temperature inversion, because light travels at different speeds through different air densities. And usually. So, like, if the air is warmer or colder, light will travel a lot of differently. Usually cold air is on top and warmer air is on the bottom. But during a temperature inversion, warm air is on top and cold air is on the bottom, which makes the light travel differently to your. To your eye. And so it just gives you the illusion.

[A]

That's incredible. It's like, that's the kind of thing that makes me believe more in ghosts and stuff, because it's like, hundreds of years ago, you see, because, I mean, I just googled this term, and apparently this is like, one of the main theories for the Flying Dutchman, like, why people see a flying ship because it's like, it looks. That's the example M sent me is like a cruise liner, like, above the water. So it's really remarkable if you think you saw that hundreds of years ago. Like, of course you'd think that ghost ship. I would think it today if I didn't know about this concept. So it's like all the stuff we see and feel like. I feel like in a couple. I don't know, I feel like someday we'll have more explanations, like, scientific explanations, you know?

[B]

Yeah. And so. And there was a few examples if anyone types in superior mirage. It's the first thing on Google images. But, yeah, light travels through denser air first, so it bends it in a weird way to our eye.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And basically, on the night of this UFO experience, the weather was appropriate for a superior mirage to occur.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And the lights could have just been high beams from another truck, and it just looked like it was floating right at them. Okay, so the best theory that we have about the Knowles family incident is that the family was really tired from traveling so far. Car. Because they were so tired, and it was late, and in the middle of the night, they saw a mirage from distant truck lights. They all panicked because they all probably saw the same thing. And then they sped away in fear, which caused a blowout. Wow.

[A]

Okay. Okay, Okay.

[B]

A random theory I saw was that this is actually. This was never a ufo, but a military assassin assassination attempt. And the family got mixed up with the actual target.

[A]

Yeah, that's for sure what happened. What the are you talking about?

[B]

The fact that that's even on the radar of, like, potential stories.

[A]

More likely than an alien. I'm like, what is wrong with these?

[B]

Somehow a UFO is so much more likely.

[A]

That's right, Exactly.

[B]

You accidentally became the target of a military assassination attempt.

[A]

Okay, but.

[B]

So here's my. Here's a fun fact. I'm gonna send you another picture real quick.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And this is the end of my story. But I thought it was so, so funny. It's really probably not funny, but I thought it was funny.

[A]

I can't wait.

[B]

That. So there's. I'm just trying to make sure that I send you all three of them. So I. I couldn't get a sharp picture of it because it's an old YouTube pixelated video. So I tried my best and I just did screenshots where I could, but because this. The story, like, took off like crazy. You know, this. The company Dunlop, for, like, tires and stuff like that. So they took advantage of this and they put. They. They took out a full PA the next day.

[A]

Stop. The next day they were like, we're on top of it.

[B]

And it says it's a. It's a full page ad of their car with three sons and a mom getting abducted by a ufo. And it says, if only they'd stuck with Dunlop. No. And so I. Other pictures. I tried to get you, like, closer zoom ins of the picture.

[A]

Oh, my God. Okay. It's not a photo, but it's like a drawing. Explain to people like a cartoon almost of a drawing of this car getting picked up. First of all, there's a kangaroo on the side, which is like, okay, cool. You know about Australia, I guess. And then it's getting picked up by a UFO with an alien. In it. And their license plate says ET1. And there's literally, yeah, the three brothers and the mom like just screaming in the car.

[B]

So this is the best part of the story is that they were like, oh, let's like play poke fun at this while like tires are in conversation and maybe we'll get some Dunlop tire work or something, some marketing out of this. Well, they didn't know but apparently the family actually was using Dunlop tires and they're the ones that blew out.

[A]

Shut the up.

[B]

So it was just like a funny moment of like oopsies.

[A]

But that's wonderful way to draw attention to yourself, Dunlop.

[B]

Yeah. So anyway, that is the Knowles family incident.

[A]

That's kind of a great like turnaround though. If you're like, oh, if like something happens, your product kind of completely flops in public. And then you just post an ad like should I use our product? And it's like, well they nothing flops like a Dunlop. Oh, that's good. MC See? Wow.

[B]

Well, so, and I'll, I'll end on. The family swears that they had this experience. They were not changed by the results of any evidence. And anytime they got interviewed they were like, if you don't believe us, fine, but I hope this never happens to you because yeah, no one will believe you. You'll look crazy. And sorry about it. Like this is this was they even, I don't know why, but they decided they were moving back and had to drive the other direction and they were too scared to drive. So they just, they flew home. But they were too scared after this to get back in a car.

[A]

So I bet the dogs never wanted to get in a car again, I'm sure.

[B]

So anyway, it, the family to this day it seems believes it.

[A]

But it's incredible.

[B]

There's no way to know.

[A]

What is your, your gut reaction, do you think?

[B]

I don't know. That superior mirage thing really does trip me out. Like I totally second guessing every time I thought I saw something.

[A]

Every time I was gonna say like, I think I would be completely perplexed if I saw something like that.

[B]

Yeah, I don't know. I, I, I'm usually always on the side of like people seeing something really weird.

[A]

Yeah, same.

[B]

I guess a superior mirage is also something really weird to see.

[A]

I know. I think of all of them, this is one of the best ones that, that has been explained. Potentially explained. Like I think the most convincing explanation I've heard so far. I would say me too. Wow, cool story. I never heard of it before.

[B]

Something that we love to do is treat ourselves to a fun little treat. You know, I love an FLT and but I don't want to spend a fortune on those flts. And that is where Quince comes in.

[A]

It feels like you're buying like just luxury items, like fun little treats, but they're just so luxurious. But they're also affordable. It's like everyday luxury at an affordable price. For example, they have these iconic Mongolian cashmere sweaters. They start at 50.

[B]

We all have one.

[A]

Oh, we all have one. We have matching ones for the tour. Like just a beautiful, timeless, classic cashmere sweater. But they have so many other things on the website that are all just beautiful, classy.

[B]

They have 14 karat gold jewelry. They have Italian leather handbags. They have European leather linen sheet sets. I mean, think of the fanciest things you can. And Quince, it seems to have them.

[A]

They're able to pull down these prices dramatically because they partner directly with top factories. They cut out the cost of the middleman and they pass the savings on to us. And so you can see the huge price gap of like what this exact product or a very similar product would be at a different brand. And it's just super cool. Especially knowing they only work with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices.

[B]

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[A]

Favorite gifts I've ever given family members is a subscription to Masterclass.

[B]

Big fan of Masterclass over here. There's a lot in the food and drink category and also so Kris Jenner taught a class on personal branding. Love that, Love that. With Masterclass, your loved ones can learn from the best to become their best. Masterclass is the only streaming platform where you can learn and grow with over 200 of the world's best. And that's why Wirecutter calls it an invaluable gift.

[A]

Learn from any Masterclass instructor anywhere on a smartphone, computer, smart TV or even in audio mode, which we drove to Connecticut last year and I listened for 12 hours. I listen to audio mode. I think it was R.L. stein. I watched the Esther Perel Master class on like relationships, which was really cool. 88 of members, including me, feel that Masterclass has made a positive impact on their lives.

[B]

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[A]

Masterclass always has great offers during the holidays. Sometimes up to as much as 50 off. Head over to masterclass.com drink for the current offer offer that's up to 50% [e-mail] drink masterclass.com drink I know you say Allison sometimes. Well, as long as I've known her, she's had some trouble sleeping and the fact that she uses the Calm app to fall asleep is so comforting and validating because I also use the Calm app to fall asleep and more than that to do grounding exercises to meditate. It's just a great app.

[B]

My favorite thing about every night with Allison is that we I, I tuck her in, which, you know, hot take. It's very lovely to give someone a little tuck in under the toes. Throw on the Calm app for her, turn off the lights. She gets a very good sleeping.

[A]

Bada boom.

[B]

1, 2, 3. Calm is the number one app for sleep and meditation, giving you the power to calm your mind and change your life. Can confirm me and Alison, both of our sleeping has changed so much for the better thanks to Calm.

[A]

They also have grounding exercises which are really nice if you're feeling overwhelmed. They're these sort of like short guided sessions and I was looking for some that I could relate to and really worked. And these are my favorite so far. And it's just a really great app to have in your life. It they put the tools right in your pocket and you can dedicate just a few minutes each day to live a happier, healthier life with calm.

[B]

Stress less, sleep more, and live better with Calm. For listeners of our show, Calm is offering an exclusive offer of 40% off of a Calm premium subscription at calm.com drink.

[A]

Go to c a l m.com drink for 40% off. Unlimited access to Calm's entire library. That's calm.com drink. Alrighty. I have a really dark story for us today, as usual. Yeah, you're welcome. It's the story of Polly Kloss. So I'm just gonna hop right into into. It was late at night on October 1, 1993, when police received a call about a missing child in the town of Petaluma, California, which is 45 minutes north of San Francisco.

[B]

Go.

[A]

The woman on the phone seemed somehow out of it, like sort of drowsy and confused. And then the woman on the phone sort of handed the phone to a young girl. And the young girl came on the line and told police that she was Staying at the house for a slumber party. And a man had come inside, attacked her and her friends, and had taken the girl who lived there, 12 year old Paulie Claus. So the authorities responded to a very strange scene. There had been no forced entry at the house. House. But Paulie's classmates, Kate McLean and Jillian Pelham were both there and they described a horrible ordeal. So these three girls, they're 12, they're in seventh grade together. That day at school, they made plans for a slumber party. And this is where to me, this case was so haunting. Like, I had nightmares last night because it's just so familiar, you know, this idea that like three little girls are at school, they make plans for a slumber party. Yeah. Their fourth friend. It feels so innocent, so harmless, so relatable and so sweet. They had a fourth friend named Annette Nelson who was actually interviewed on 20 20, and she was devastated because she had a cold so she couldn't go to the slumber party. Now imagine missing this whole event.

[B]

A survivor's guilt.

[A]

Yeah. So Paulie's mom, Eve Nickel, agreed to host a sleepover. And Paulie's younger sister Annie went to bed with Eve, her mom that night, like, basically went to sleep in her mom's room so that the girls could have the bedroom to themselves. Themselves. So the trio was up late. They were trying on Halloween costumes and like planning what they were going to be for Halloween. It really breaks my heart. And they were playing with makeup. And around 10:30 they decided to get ready for bed. Oh, my gosh. Sorry. I'm just like, it just gives me the chills. Paulie was going to get their sleeping bags from another room. So she stood up and said, I'm going to go grab the sleeping bags. She opens the her bedroom door and there's just a man standing there with a knife.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

In the literal hallway in front of.

[B]

Her, which, like, how long was he just standing there and hearing like, little.

[A]

Girls have a good time, play with makeup. Like, sick, sick. He told the girls that if they made any sound, he would slit their throats with the knife.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

For a moment, one of the girls, Kate, thought maybe this was some sort of like sick prank, right? Because your brain is like trying to make sense of this, this. But the terrified girls had to obey. They had no choice. And so he made them lie face down. He gagged and blindfolded them with cloth and he bound their hands with cords he cut from a video game console in the room. So there was like a Nintendo 64 or something. And he had, like, cut the actual wiring of the controllers to bind their hands.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

He promised not to hurt them. Them. He said he was a burglar and asked which of the girls lived in the house. Oh, I know. My stomach hurts. Paulie said, I do. So he took her with him, supposedly so she could show him around the house to anything valuable. He told Kate and Jillian to count to a thousand and said he would bring Paulie back before they reached 1,000, which, I mean, as far as criminals go, like, pretty smart heart to be like, I'll just show me where the valuables are. You guys count to a thousand, and I'll bring her back. You know, it feels like it makes almost enough sense that you would just believe it in the moment.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I love this because the second that he walks out of the room, Jillian, who was a gymnast, is like, I'm getting the. Out of these bindings, so I know. So immediately she maneuvers her hands around her legs and, like, frees herself. And then her friend came, Kate. They run to Eve's room, which is. Which is the mom, and it's connected to Paulie's by a Jack and Jill bathroom. So literally, imagine how close, like, these two rooms share a bathroom.

[B]

And, like, the mom, it's like. It's like she was. She was so close to being hurt.

[A]

So close. I have, like, goose cam. I mean, and with their. With her other daughter in the bed with her, you know? So they run to the mom's room, which is connected to Paulie's by this bathroom. Eve had gone to bed earlier with a migraine, and she had actually taken, like, a sleep aid to go to sleep because she had a migraine. And so that's why. Remember when she called the police? And she was so drowsy and out of it, and she didn't fully understand what was happening. It's because she had taken, like, something for her migraine, but that was also made her drowsy. And so when she was asleep and was woken up, she, like, barely understood what these girls were shouting and saying. And, you know, of course, how do you even rationalize, like, Paulie's gone, you know, so the girls woke her up. And again, it's only 10:30. Not only, but, you know, it's only 10:30 dot it's not like, four in the morning when everyone's been out cold for hours. It's. It's 10:30. It's just, like, right in the middle of the sleepover. So an APB and All points bulletin went out to local authorities that a young girl had been abducted, but it wasn't broadcast over all radio channels. So not everyone got the notification. And the APB was specifically noted not for press release. So it was more like an internal release because the police didn't want to create, like, a public media frenzy. So this was actually three years before the development of the Amber Alert. And so there was no Amber Alert to kind of issue at this point to quickly get first response on, you know, if anybody alerts can alert the police to seeing a missing car or the car that's, you know, know, suspected to have the child. And so this just wasn't part of the norm at this point. In the most crucial moments following her kidnapping, nobody in Petaluma even knew that she was missing. So meanwhile, police start canvassing the neighborhood for any information they could get. But Petaluma is a very safe, quiet town, very peaceful neighborhood. And the people there were just totally taken aback and had no idea and no. No kind of wherewithal to have looked for anything suspicious. The night before, for example, Eve, the mom, had gone to bed at night with several windows open because it was really warm out. I mean, I do that, you know, I mean, I guess not anymore.

[B]

I did it last night. Right.

[A]

Like, all the time. It just. It's. Even though this is decades earlier, like, it's just really scary.

[B]

Well, also, like, you shouldn't have to feel fear in your own home to just sleep with a window open.

[A]

Agreement? Agreed. Agreed. So she had gone to bed that night with several windows open because it was so warm out. And Paulie may have even accidentally left the back door unlocked if, like, because she had been in and out earlier that day, they weren't really sure. One of Paulie's best friends, Annette Nelson, said that the house. Oh, sorry. One of Holly's best friends, Annette Nelson, said that the back door, like this, this door that may have been left unlocked, was a place where kids left notes for their parents when they went out to play with friends. Friends. And so, like, nobody really worried if that door was unlocked or open or opening and closing. That was kind of where the kids would go. So when a neighbor saw Paulie's abductor enter Eve's house that night, it didn't quite seem suspicious because the door was just unlocked. So the man walked in with such casual confidence that they assumed he was just a house guest and moved on. Like, there was just no fear in this neighborhood. It wasn't the middle of the night, like I said. You know, it's like 10:30, and of course it's late, but it's like, presumably this could be a parent picking up their kid or a friend stopping by.

[B]

For a drink or like one of the parents. Siblings.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. A family member, somebody, an uncle. The lights at the lights were on because the kids were up and playing. An adult was home.

[B]

So it looks like a group of people was over.

[A]

Yeah. It didn't seem suspicious at all. And this was such a bold crime that the police were completely shocked, as was the neighborhood, of course. And they immediately involved the FBI because they knew this was like, they needed all hands on deck. So specialists on the case believed they were looking for someone who had committed similar crimes in the past because it was so bold. As the night unfolded and Eve started to really get her bearings and realized just how. How terrible this situation was, she lit a candle and she put it in the window, and this was sort of her symbolic light to guide her daughter Paulie home. And she said she would keep it lit until Paulie came home. Home. Paulie's father, Mark, arrived, having spoken to Paulie just hours earlier, because she called to tell him how excited she was about the slumber party she was hosting.

[B]

God.

[A]

And her parents were divorced, but they had a really healthy relationship. Can't relate. Just kidding.

[B]

Must be nice.

[A]

No, but. So her parents had a very healthy relationship, despite being divorced, or, you know, at least at as far as you can be co parenting. And so she and her dad. Paulie and her dad were really, really close. And so she called him almost every day. And she had called him and told him how excited she was to have her two friends over for a slumber party. She told him all about it. And when Kate arrived, this is like, another little description that they put in 2020, which made it to me all the more just poignant and like. Like silly and relatable. So when Kate arrived, I guess Paulie and Jillian. Jillian had already arrived earlier. And so Paulie and Jillian, like, posed on the sides of the porch like little stone lions to, like, greet her when she arrived, you know, or like, little Gar.

[B]

So heartbreaking and precious.

[A]

Yes. It's like, oh, we've all done silly stuff. Like, oh, when she arrived, like, let's pretend we're gargoyles. Like, you know, just silly, silly play. And it's just so sick. It just made my heart break. So that was just a little, like, lead up to. To. To the party. Mark and Paulie were very close. Polly was a daddy's girl. And he said in an interview, for example, where my marriage was really a total disaster with Eve, our divorce was quite successful. So, you know, all right. At least they had that. And at this point in 1984, Paulie was living with her mom in Petaluma and her stepdad and her half sister Annie. And Mark and Eve, like I said, were great co. Parents. Parents. Mark saw her poly every week. They spent a lot of time together. He said the last thing that they had said on the phone to each other that evening is she said, I love you, daddy. And he said, I love you too, baby. And that was the last time they ever spoke. Now, I don't know if you know much about Petaluma. M. Do you?

[B]

No.

[A]

Okay. So I had a friend from there who worked at Disney with me. I've never been. But just the way he described it and the way I've kind of looked it up, it seems like a very idyllic town. Like last night I was researching it, and I thought to myself, honestly, if I was not so afraid of the big one, the big earthquake, sure, I may. I would. If I were moving back to the west coast, this is a place I would consider because it's really.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

It's like 45 minutes or an hour from San Francisco. So it's like, near a big city, but it's like a historic town. It has its own, like, history and culture. They've got cheese, wine, historic tours and buildings. I mean, it's just. Just.

[B]

It's very Christine.

[A]

It's made for me. Yeah. According to 2020, in the early 90s, Petaluma was probably even more idyllic than it, you know, would be later on, actually, it was even used. The town was used as the setting for one of Ronald Reagan's campaign ads. That's how.

[B]

Damn.

[A]

Yeah. That's like how Americana this place is. Right. And so in the ad, he's literally riding a tractor around like, it's.

[B]

Are you kidding me?

[A]

Goodbye. It's very silly. So if you.

[B]

If you. Sorry. If you had to do a campaign, a presidential campaign, where would you shoot it, do you think? Petaluma.

[A]

No. Yeah. Where. Where my forefather, Ronald Reagan, shot his ad.

[B]

Well, I would. Obviously mine would be that Galena place that I found forever.

[A]

Oh, yeah, duh. Well, we'd obviously be running together, so I don't think we get to pick our own spot.

[B]

I think yours would be like, Salem for sure.

[A]

No, mine would be like some random ass place in, like, Appalachia with a lot of ghosts. And a train track. Okay.

[B]

Actually, that does track a little bit. Okay, cool. Yeah.

[A]

Okay. So once the news broke the next day of Paulie's kidnapping, Petaluma leapt into action, and residents formed unofficial search parties throughout town. They walked in kind of like those linked lines to. To search for any sign of Paulie. People gathered at a local print shop, taking phone calls, distributing thousands of flyers with Paulie's name and information.

[B]

Some real community.

[A]

Yeah. They really did, like, band together, especially because this was just so unheard of in the area. And Mark, the dad, was extremely involved as well in media coverage of Paulie. He just wanted this story to keep getting blasted out there on the media. And as often happens in these cases, especially when people involved are on TV a lot, people started calling in and saying, hey, you better look into that dad, because he's not. Not, of course, sad enough on the tv.

[B]

You know, they had a successful divorce.

[A]

Yeah, right. That can't be right. Yeah, exactly. And so they would call the tip line, accusing him of suspicious behavior. Just, like, from watching him on tv. Right. Which is really helpful. Thank you, everybody. And don't you think they already would look into the dad immediately?

[B]

Pretty sure we already know he's suspect number one.

[A]

Thank you for your tip, though, caller. Geez. Such a waste of time. Sorry. I don't know why I'm so mad, but it's like, if you don't have it right, like, if you don't have a real tip that's actually going to help, then why are you wasting everyone's time? Don't call.

[B]

I think, because I don't know about you, but I think if I went missing, my dad would go, that's sad. And then just kind of keep it moving. It's like, finally there's a man who's, like, worthy of a pat on the back and of the.

[A]

Yes. Of the actual.

[B]

Just protective of him. That poor man.

[A]

I know, I know. I get it, though. Yeah. I'm with you. It's like, of all people, he's working. He's literally killing himself to do this. It's, like, very sad. He became so exhausted, actually speaking on that, that he almost, like, had a melt, like a breakdown. I mean, he was, like, at the end of his rope, and he was trying to hold it together on tv, and then people were calling and saying, you did it. You know, and he just can't catch a break.

[B]

I'd snap. I'd.

[A]

I mean, imagine, like, I would break down. But he decided he needed to continue appearing publicly for Paulie one of his friends even came over and said, like, you gotta just push through this, like, a little longer. Paulie needs you, you know? And so he got a little pep talk and got back on the horse. And this case ended up being featured on America's Most Wanted. And that brought national attention to Paulie's abduction. So much so that actress Winona Ryder, who grew up in Petaluma and went to the same school as Paulie.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

Found the story. And at this point in 1984, she was famous for films like Heather's Beetlejuice, Edward Scissorhands.

[B]

She was having a moment. Moment.

[A]

And Dracula. Yeah, she was in the big leagues. And, yeah, she saw this story about Paulie and immediately, like, felt for the girl. And Paulie actually was an actress, like, at her school. She was in the theater department. And so she actually really loved Winona Ryder. And so, you know, Winona Ryder hears this and sees this story coming from her own school, like, her own middle school in her own hometown, and she's just completely taken in and drawn to this story. And actually, Winona and Polly even shared some of the same teachers and a favorite book that they'd read in school. Little Women was their favorite shared book. And so Winona actually showed up in person to participate in the search effort, put up $200,000 as a reward for information leading to Paulie's return. And, of course, this also sparked, like, media interest, you know, because now, sure, a list celebrities involved. And, you know, it was really heartwarming. And they have footage of Winona Ryder arriving. And they even described, like, she showed up, no makeup. Like, it wasn't, like, a press thing for her.

[B]

She showed up about her.

[A]

Yes. And I thought that was just, like, very classy. I was like, she just seems, like, really taken by this story. And I just thought it was a very heartwarming thing, you know, at least as much as anything in the story could be heartwarming. But Paulie herself, she was described as outgoing, sassy, charming, sensitive, talented. She was in the local place. She played the clarinet. She had a natural stage presence that, like, people automatically were drawn to. And I actually like the way Polly was described, because I haven't really heard a kid described this way or a person in any of these stories. And I think this is really poignant. Yet in 2020, one of the women who wrote a book about the case described Paulie as the girl who reminded everyone of someone they loved, whether it was a daughter or a friend or a niece. Isn't that Just like.

[B]

That's a great description.

[A]

I just. That gave me goose cam because I was like, wow, what a powerful way to say that. You know, instead of, like, she lit up a room, which I think means something, but has gotten so.

[B]

Just like, we all have.

[A]

Yeah, it's all wrote. It's all very. Just, like, kind of cliche at this point. But, yeah, I thought that was really, really nice. So, yeah, Winona showed up, and, of course, this put more attention on the abduction story, but there were all these false leads still coming in about or. Or just, like, tips that were not helpful about the dad or what have you. One girl, actually. This is really up. I. As I watch this, my jaw was on the floor. Okay. So the family at one point got a phone call in the middle that night, and. Or. I don't know for the middle of the night, but it was at night. Paulie's mom answers the phone, and a little girl says, hi, it's Paulie.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And detectives trace the call, because, of course, they're already monitoring calls to the house. Burst through the door with, like, weapons blazing at this California home. And there's just this family asleep in the house.

[B]

And she just pranked them.

[A]

It's a prank. She said her friends.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

She said her friends dared her to make the call. You better believe that girl is never gonna prank someone again.

[B]

You better believe that she still is asleep to this day. About that.

[A]

Big time. To have, like, weapons drawn burst into your home is traumatizing enough. Then to get in trouble for causing it.

[B]

Well, just being here just to go to sleep at night and just think about. About, oh, I did that to somebody who was missing their baby.

[A]

And also. Also, I know. And to be older and realize, like, how up that was, because as a kid, you probably don't realize, you know, the empathy hasn't quite kicked in yet. But imagine also being the friend who pushed her to do it and was like. Was, like, bullying her into doing it or whatever. I just imagine, like, oopsie, that was not a good idea.

[B]

Yeah, that's bad.

[A]

That's really bad. And so that was kind of just a. One of those dead ends that was a little more dramatic than the others. But as days continued, the days turned into weeks, and the search for Paulie became desperate. The detectives on the case repeatedly interviewed Paulie's friends Jillian and Kate. And they are 12 years old, and they've experienced unimaginable trauma. The night.

[B]

So stressful. Jesus Christ.

[A]

So horrific. And now investigators are treating them with suspicion Thinking maybe they know more about Paulie's disappearance than they actually do.

[B]

Oh my God, please. I know you think 12 year olds are little masterminds losing their friend.

[A]

And at the time. Exactly. And at the time, like they were like, oh, maybe she went off with a boyfriend and they're just not telling us, you know, and these girls are just like so deeply traumatized by this event.

[B]

I got hog tied by kids.

[A]

Exactly. And now to be. And now to be almost blamed for it or blame claimed that, that they're the reason you're not finding. They're not finding your friend. And it at the time, also they made a good point that they didn't have the resources to have people who could communicate directly with children as a cur, like who were specialized in communicating with children, especially in an interrogation setting. And so this was just full on cops like interrogating 12 year old girls and just horrifying. Just retrans them.

[B]

I'm kind of just surprised then that neither of them broke and said something they didn't even mean just to get them off their backs.

[A]

So that's actually kind of how they described it because detectives were just pressuring them to give any new information, but there was none to give. And the girls later said in an interview, kind of like what you just said, that it felt like detectives kept asking the same questions to trick them into saying something that wasn't true. And that they would only be left alone if they said the thing that the police wanted to hear. Like, you know, we hear this so bad police work. Coerced, like coerced confessions, that kind of thing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And the investigators, of course, thought it was strange that Kate and Jillian didn't seem traumatized by, you know, by this. The way that two little girls should be traumatized by crying and shaking, quote unquote. And it's like, dude, please. That pisses me right off.

[B]

That tease me, right?

[A]

Oh, it teased me, right? Oh, and I will say that these same investigators have since come on camera and apologized and said, oh, if they ever hear this, I want them to know we made a huge mistake. And that was really inappropriate. And I was like, okay, all right, sure. At least own up to it. You know, both girls did polygraph tests and Jillian passed and Kate's was inconclusive. But this is really sad. It was later noted that before the polygraph, Kate was in visible distress. She was holding a teddy bear. She was completely freaked out. And that could have affected the test results. So even those aren't even helpful. Right. They're just putting these kids through this for some reason.

[B]

You're just describing someone who's gone through a lot.

[A]

Yes, yes. So eventually, the treatment of both girls became so intense that their parents told police and FBI they were not allowed to speak to the girls anymore. And now a woman who's one of my heroes, Gene Boylan, steps in. She's a forensic artist with experience advocating for people involved in criminal investigations. Vulnerable people, like kids, women, people who've experienced something traumatizing.

[B]

Oh, I love her.

[A]

I love her. And she came in and said, more than anything, these girls just needed to speak and they needed to be believed because, I mean, the police are basically trying to get them to say something that didn't happen, and they're trying to tell the truth and no one's listening. And it's like, that's got to feel so unsettling. Invalidating and invalidating. Exactly. She spent more than nine hours with the girls, just calmly listening, just listening to the story and having them tell everything they could remember, just nodding along, being there for them, and almost just guiding them, like, holding their hand, so to speak, as. As they talked through the entire event. Nine hours she spent with them. And they had released a sketch already to the public, but it was, like, not a good one. And people said it. And even the girls said, like, that didn't really look like him. After spending nine hours with the girls, this forensic artist, Jean, was able to draw, like, a portrait of this man.

[B]

Man, I love women.

[A]

I love women. So they take this portrait and first of all, I love Jean because, like, first of all, she's so beautiful. Like in the videos now she's older, but she, like, you can just tell, she's just very, like, I don't know, ethereal beauty. Yes, she's a very ethereal person. That's right. And like, this video of her or this photo of her from the 80s is hilarious because she almost looks the same now, but like, just in modern day. But, like, look at her hair with the. The voluminous bangs.

[B]

Oh, she's.

[A]

Yeah, it's hilarious. So she steps.

[B]

She's a looker.

[A]

Yeah. And she's just like, I'm done with this nonsense and I am going to figure out how to make. Here's a portrait she drew. Hold on. And I just love that in addition to being a forensic artist, she was also just a very empathetic, empathic person to be with. To be with the kids that whole time.

[B]

Oh, damn. She really was able to sketch the hell out of it.

[A]

Is that not like a portrait, you.

[B]

Know, that's a liter portrait that looks like a painting.

[A]

Yeah, it's like a full on realist realism sketch of this person. And she actually did the portrait for the Unabomber as well. Fun fact. Oh, yeah, the very famous one that actually I'm gonna send you now as well.

[B]

She literally is like, step aside. I'll just. Yeah, I can just handle it. Yeah, this.

[A]

Look at this gal. And the COVID of her freaking book, it's called Portraits of Guilt. The woman who profiles the faces of America's deadliest criminals. Gene Boylan. And then at the bottom are all like some of her not of her famous sketches. Yeah, look at her jeans, her like 80s outfit. Anyway, I just love her. I love Gene Boylan. And the way that she just like took these girls under their wing or under her wing after they were like re traumatized, I just thought was really touching. So they. Anyway, she makes this photo or. Sorry, not this photo, she makes this drawing, this sketch. And it's a much more realistic sketch than the one they had before and much more detailed. And so now the date is November 27th. It's been nearly two months since the kidnapping. And a woman named Dana Jaffe called the police about something strange she had just discovered in the woods near her home. She was.

[B]

Okay, yeah, that sentence could be anything.

[A]

Hey, this is gonna go one of 800 different ways.

[B]

Hope I'm not waking you, but I. Something weird is in the woods. Nothing normal's in the woods.

[A]

Yeah, I found something strange. Wouldn't you know it?

[B]

What'd you find?

[A]

I'm here to tell you about it. So she was out for a hike with a friend when she came across an adult sweatshirt turned inside out and a pair of little girls red tights.

[B]

Oh, God.

[A]

And some of the fabric had been tied into knots. And there was a used condom as well.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Yeah. And you know, you know that like sinking like, you know, you find that. That something terrible has happened. A detective on Paulie's case responded and of course felt sick when he saw the knotted fabric and realized that's exactly what Kate and Jillian had had in the bedroom that they had been tied up with. So he knew this came from Paulie's bedroom, this fabric, and that it was tied the same way as the killer had done it to. To the other girls. He had a sinking feeling that Paulie had been taken here to the woods by Dana's house. And weirdly enough, this was not the first 911 call that Dana had Made since Paulie's abduction production of strange things happening around her property on October 1st. Remember, this is the night of the slumber party, the night that she was kidnapped. Just two hours after Paulie was taken, Dana called the police reporting a trespasser on her property. She called and this person was on the edge of. So her property was on the edge of Santa Rosa, California, which was just under 30 minutes from Petaluma. She worked. Dana Jaffe worked as a chef at a local restaurant. She was a single mother with a 12 year old daughter of her own. So like same age. She had just come home from work and said good night to the babysitter who left in her car down this like long, wooded, dark driveway. And as the babysitter is driving down the driveway, she sees this man whose car is stuck in a ditch on the side of the road. He's wearing an inside out sweatshirt.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

The babysitter stops. Her door is locked, and she cracks her windows like this much. Right? Because you know that. That instinct of. Of like, I want to help. Yeah.

[B]

They're.

[A]

Oh, they're like, roll down your window. And you're like, I don't really want to, but. So she rolls it down a crack. This jams his hand through the crack of the window.

[B]

That's when you roll that up. Break it yourself.

[A]

Rolled that up. And he got his hand out, but he started yelling, you have to help me and get my car. Help me figure out how to get my car out of the dish. She rolled her windows back up, sped off. As soon as she got to a phone, she called Dana and said, there's some guy in your driveway. I stopped to ask him what was going on, and he pushed his hand inside the open window.

[B]

Thank God she called.

[A]

Thank God. And so Dana tells her daughter to get dressed immediately. And she said, we are on the outskirts of town in a dark area. There's this sketchy guy outside. We're vulnerable. I'm a single mom of a.

[B]

Get in the car. We're going somewhere else.

[A]

Get in the car. So she takes mace and a baseball bat. They drive down the long, steep driveway, and they see the vehicle, but the man is not with it. So Dana calls 91 1. And when authorities respond, they find the man. He had returned to his vehicle and he told them he had gotten lost.

[B]

While sightseeing in the pitch black, in.

[A]

The woods, in the night time, in someone's driveway.

[B]

What were you sightseeing? You Peeping Tom? What were you saying?

[A]

This was midnight insanity. The man apparently smelled Terrible like that was one of the descriptions that people noticed immediately. And he seemed afraid, very afraid. And Dana even described it as smelling the scent of fear on the man.

[B]

Ew.

[A]

Isn't that the scariest thing you've ever heard? She said she could just smell like a primal fear emanating off him. And I just thought that was so.

[B]

I hate that.

[A]

Sickening. His hair was also full of leaves. Fun fact.

[B]

What's he sightseeing? What was he doing?

[A]

They asked why his hair was full of leaves. He said, he's been crawling on the ground. And they said, oh, sightseeing down there. What you doing?

[B]

And he said, looking down a hole.

[A]

I'm just looking at the ground. Finding a little earthworm to play with. I don't know. And they said, what the is all over your hair and why are you covered in leaves? And he said, oh, I was trying to pull brush out from under my tire. And they like, look, and they're like, there's no brush here.

[B]

He's like, well, I did a good job.

[A]

Yeah, well, I must have cleaned that up real well. I had that exact same thought. So, although the babysitter said he was in a sweatshirt, Dana, when she finally saw the guy and the police were there, noticed he was not wearing a sweatshirt and it was gone. Now, remember, two months later, she finds this exact sweatshirt in the woods with the red tights and the knotted fabric. So this is where she saw it for the first time, or. Or at least the babysitter saw the inside out sweatshirt. She never saw it until she found it in the woods months later. The deputies told Dana they could arrest him on trespassing charges if she wanted to press charges, but that would mean he would have to come back to the property to get his car, and it would be like a longer process. And so she said, I just want him out of here. Police. And of course, not knowing about the. The abduction that evening, this was just not even on their radar. So she chose not to press charges and she went home while the authorities helped him free his car. They told Dana that they escorted him down the road until they felt he was safely on his way out of town and away from her home. Now, this man was 39 year old Richard Allen Davis. And that night, deputies had looked at his ID and confirmed by radio that there were no outstanding warrants for his arrest before they saw him on his way, because if there was a warrant, they would have arrested him on the spot. However, at the time, there was no way to check someone's rap Sheet to check their criminal record from the road over the radio. And so they weren't able to check if this guy had a criminal record, which he absolutely did. And if they had seen that he had only been paroled just months earlier after serving time for abducting a woman. Woman, then maybe they would not have let him just drive away. But unfortunately, at the time, there was just no way. And since there was no outstanding warrant, they just let him go.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

So he had actually been serving time for abducting a woman in 1984, and he had also abducted another woman in 1976. And they didn't even realize this. Yeah. He's got a hobby besides sightseeing on the forest leaves.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. The police and the FBI received a tip on Richard's whereabouts, and they organized a SWAT team to make an arrest. In custody, he initially. And I want to just clarify, this is two months later, when she discovers all these objects, you know, on the. On the side of the road or, I'm sorry, in the woods. And. And is a. They are able to, like, figure out what's going on. So police and FBI received this tip on Richard's whereabouts. They organize a SWAT team to make an arrest, and in custody, he initially denied knowing anything at all about Paulie. But after a little bit of time in jail, his lawyer contacted investigators and told them he was prepared to talk. So detectives sat down with him, and he just, like, drank a coffee, smoked a cigarette, and they did that thing that's so hard to watch, where they treated him like just a buddy, but it's, like, to get him to talk.

[B]

See, I think that's my favorite. The Elliot Stabler. That's.

[A]

It's my favorite. But, like, watching it in person feels so icky because, like, it's just too. It's just like some dude. It's not like an actor doing it and, you know, better. It's like, just some random white guy cop. And you're like, why are you talking to this guy like, he's your friend. Why are you giving Coca Cola? But it's like, okay, but this is nice guy, Good cop, bad cop. You know, Like, I get it, but it's very unsettling to watch them treat him like a good old pal, you know? And so, yeah, they're basically like, oh, yeah, like, just tell us what's up. What's going on? And, you know, I'll be honest. Like, watching them in the interviews later, like, some of them are crying, and so it's like, they're not this Is not easy for them, right. To play like friend. But it's just really unsettling. That makes it almost more unsettling to watch. Okay. So anyway, he says he wants to talk, so they're bringing him coffee, cigarettes. They ask him if he took Paulie. He said yes. They asked him if Paulie was alive. He said no. Richard led detectives nearly an hour north to cloverdale, where they found Paulie's remains in a field underneath a piece of plywood. And Richard said he was kind of surprised nobody had found her there earlier. Thanks, Richard. The investigative team contacted Mark and Eve, the parents, about an update on the case. And Mark said that when he and Eve arrived, he could see tears in the detective's eyes, and he knew Paulie was dead. So he began contacting family members to tell them, quote, it was over. That night, Eve blew out the candle in the window because in some way, she felt Paulie had finally come home. The case went to trial in 1996, and although Richard confessed to kidnapping and murdering Paulie, he was adamant that he did not rape her. He said in questioning that he hated rapists. Wow.

[B]

Did they ever actually, like, look into the condom?

[A]

So I don't think there was widely used DNA evidence at the time because this would have been like, 93. Yeah, 93. Yeah. So I guess there was. There was. I don't know the details on that. I don't think they did do testing, but they very, very adamantly believed that he sexually assaulted Paulie. Actually, I didn't know much information about the condom until you asked, so. And then m. Scammer or one of our intern went out, so I had a minute to actually look it up. And I found this article from sfgate.com which is like a San Francisco publication from 96 called Condom Links. Condom link points to Davis, and it says in San Jose, a former sex toys dealer from Ukiah told jurors that she sold. So she's one of the. I guess was. She testified on the stand during the trial. She said she sold a pack of condoms to Richard Allen Davis just before the kidnap and killing of Paul Polycloth. So she testified that it was the same brand and that she. She witnessed that man Richard come into her shop, buy those exact condoms. And then they found that condom at the site of, you know, the other material. So it's. It's pretty widely accepted that he did. Okay, he did rape her. He claimed he hated rapists, and he said when he's in jail, he personally targets them. Oh, and it's okay.

[B]

Thank you so much.

[A]

Wow. Thank you for your service. Thanks so much for having a good opinion of, you know, on one right side of history. Except that you're lying, because basically, he just wanted to avoid being the target of that kind of violence. Like, he's just projecting, you know, he's like, I don't want to be attacked as a child rapist in jail because.

[B]

Please, no, Please, please, no. That's not my style.

[A]

Those guys are so bad. And it's like. It reminds me of btk where it's like, you just ruined this family, and now you're like, oh, I would never rape somebody. It's like, I'm going to.

[B]

Why aren't you patting me on the back?

[A]

Yeah, right. Exactly. And he also insisted that this was not a premeditated crime, even though when he was being interrogated, the way he talked was like. And then the next thing I remember, we were just, like, driving, and she was just, like, in the passenger seat. And the investigators were like, that is the way people who want you to believe it was not premeditated speak about a crime. Like, they'll say, oh, such weird. It just, like, happened as if, like.

[B]

I just dissociated back into reality.

[A]

Like, I just, like, as if I had no agency whatsoever. And so you could tell he was trying to kind of spin it a certain way. When they talked about Dana Jaffe and the babysitter in the driveway, he claimed Paulie was alive and just sitting on an embankment near the car. And according to him, at this point, he later stopped at a gas station, and that's where he strangled Paulie to death. But detectives were not convinced, because even if Paulie had stayed completely silent when the babysitter, like, pulled up with and cracked the window open, it didn't make sense that he could have somehow hidden Paulie and then left with her while police showed up and escorted him off the property. Like, police would have probably noticed if she was there somewhere.

[B]

100.

[A]

Yeah. So the story also didn't match with the evidence Dana discovered in the woods that Richard had left behind that night. And they believed it was more likely for that reason that Richard killed Paulie somewhere between his encounter with the babysitter and Dana. And Paulie's friends, Kate and Jillian also took the stand to testify against Richard and basically tell the entire story for probably the hundredth time of what had happened that night. And both girls were allowed to choose one adult to be at the stand with them. And they both chose Jean Boylan. Oh, the sketch artist.

[B]

And she was the only one who ever, like, gave them the actual. Who respected their story and gave them the time of day and made them feel safe.

[A]

Yeah. And she had just shown so much support throughout the investigation that they felt safe around her. So the investigative team were extremely nervous about the verdict because the O.J. simpson trial had recently ended and things went awry, as you know, in that case. And one person involved in Paulie's case said that he refused to make any of the same mistakes he felt prosecution made on the O.J. simpson case. So there was just a lot of pressure that like. Like, things needed to go right and they couldn't it up. He. He felt the pressure to build the strongest possible case against Richard with no loopholes whatsoever, which included a confession as well as physical evidence, like fingerprints. Thankfully, the FBI at the time had this fluorescent powder that was a hundred times more sensitive than the, like, standard fingerprint powder used by police back then.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

I know. And so they were able to pick. I think they said they were able to pick up 48 prints that had been missed previously at the scene of the crime because they were just not able to be picked up with, like, the previous powder. They were also able to pick up a palm print. And this palm print, when this was collected, the FBI agent who was on the scene wrote in his notebook, bingo.

[B]

Oh, well, I'll do it.

[A]

Lo and behold, the print traced right back to Richard. So now they had his fucking hand print at the scene of the crime.

[B]

Not even fingerprint. Whole ass hand.

[A]

Whole ass hand. When the jury returned with a guilty verdict, Richard turned toward Paulie's dad.

[B]

Oh, God.

[A]

In the cameras. And gave two middle fingers.

[B]

My jaw's on the floor. But also, it's exactly.

[A]

It gets worse. It gets worse. Actually, I know that that's shocking, and it is. And cameras picked it up, and everyone gasped. It gets worse. This guy. This guy. It all started with the fingers in the window. And I went, this guy is trouble big time. I mean, obviously it all started when he started criming around the place. But, I mean, this guy's mannerisms are so unhinged. I'm like, so Richard was ultimately sentenced to death, which is, you know, in California, was at the time, especially the highest, highest sentence you could get. And he is still in prison today, Even though in 2019, which I recall this happening, Governor Newsom put a moratorium on the death penalty in California. So there's kind of like an uncertain future as to people on death row. But for right now, he. He remains in prison. But when the jury did return with this guilty verdict to all charges, and after giving the middle finger, the judge asked if he wanted to make a statement. And he said he did. He pulled out a piece of paper and he began to read. And he said when he took Paulie up to that embankment off Dana's driveway, Paulie said to him, just don't do me like my dad. And basically accused her dad of raping her.

[B]

What?

[A]

As just a. You. As his last statement. As like, as last.

[B]

Oh, so she didn't actually say that. He just wrote it as like he.

[A]

Just decided to say, oh, she just said she didn't want me to rape her like her daddy did. And this man, Mark, his mother sitting next to him and he says she almost died. He was like, I swear to God, she just like almost just collapsed next to me. Almost died. And he said he just couldn't eat, even think straight. And all of a sudden he is on his feet and he is drained by bailiffs because he is trying to attack this man.

[B]

Good, that's fine.

[A]

And he's removed from the courtroom. And it's just like this guy wanted one more just like punch while you're down. Just to say you I'm a psychopath and I give zero shits about you. And like I have one last chance to say anything while I'm just to make you even more pissed off. I'm going to ruin. I'm going to make this even harder for you.

[B]

I'm just going to make this memory even worse.

[A]

Yeah, I've raped and killed your daughter, your little daughter. And now I'm going to make it even worse somehow. So Richard thankfully was, you know, sentenced, put away, still in prison today. And it's been 31 years since Paulie's death. We're recording this in December of 24. Her family still struggles to heal from this. Mark Clauss said in an interview that people say it's time to move on, but the way he lost it, child is something you just can't put behind him. And he told ABC News, I think her legacy is strong. I do. But still, I'd trade it for a hug.

[B]

That's a. Wow. Heartbreaking.

[A]

I cried at that. Paulie's abduction and murder bolstered public support for California's highly controversial three strikes law, which requires that anyone who was ch. Charged with a third time felony offense in the state of California be sentenced to life in prison with without parole. So it's like three strikes, you are out. And the legislation gained momentum because California voters were outraged and demanding to know why this repeat, like, abductor was out on the streets and was able to get this little girl. So the three strikes legislation promised to keep the public safe from dangerous, violent people with multiple felony convictions. But a government study published more than a decade later found that fewer than half of the people convicted and sentenced had even committed crimes, crimes against other persons. So a lot of this was for felony drug possession and are now in prison for life because of it, which, as you imagine can imagine, is needs to be looked at and changed. So according to Stanford University, the law is also controversial because of course, it disproportionately impacts minority populations, like mentally ill, physically disabled people. Nearly half of all the people imprisoned under this law are black. And so that is just like, you know, a little insight into how these, these things can go wrong. I know. We've also talked about how the sex offender registry has caused a lot of problems, that even the people who helped create it have been trying to institute changes to the, to the laws there. And so, you know, hopefully someday we find a better system. When Paulie was missing, her younger sister Annie wanted to help find her. And Annie asked the detectives if she could help. And they just were like, I mean, we can't say no. Like, you want to help find your big sister? So Annie actually spent time with the investigators when they were at her house, and they tried to make her feel involved by saying, like, can you hand me a tool, you know, that I can use? And so she would like, hand them the tools. And if she had questions, they would talk to her about it. And today, Annie and her, her own younger sister Jess have spoken out publicly against the three strikes law. So this is Paulie's sister. Yeah, and she's talked against this. They've actually created a podcast together. Paulie's younger sister.

[B]

Well, hey.

[A]

Or two younger sisters. Yeah. And they created this podcast which they say is their contribution to the journey out of p sentencing and tough on crime attitudes. As we work toward a new vision of justice and healing in this country, rather than incarcerating people after the fact, we are looking for ways to prevent crime by seeking out restorative and community based solutions that address violence at the source. I mean, what. That is amazing. That is amazing.

[B]

What's the name of the podcast?

[A]

So the podcast is called A New Legacy and their little sub headline is Learning from Leaders, building a new Vision of Justice. And I just think this is so cool. So they interview different people about redefining justice, rebuilding lives after People's lives after prison survivor centered healing. It's just really, really cool. I mean, what a kick ass way to talk about a legacy. You know, I mean, after. After going through something so traumatic and to have like one of those early memories, be helping the police try to solve your sister's abduction in your own home. Home. Like, wow, what a story. So they aim to build a more hopeful legacy of justice and healing for Paulie, for the town of Petaluma, too. So you can listen to a new legacy beyond legislation. Paulie's own legacy prevails in the things she loved. Now get this. In 1994, the film Little Women would only have studio support if Winona Ryder agreed to the starring role. And she had been hesitant. But after she became close to Paulie's family and learned Paulie was a family fan of the book, she ultimately agreed to do the film if the film were officially dedicated to Paulie.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

I know. Isn't that just wow? Winona said of the project. I'm looking forward to making a movie that doesn't contribute to the misery of the world.

[B]

Okay, that makes sense. Wow.

[A]

Wow. The Poly Class community theater in Petaluma is a space where young performers like Paulie can find a home in their community. And that's still active and, you know, again, a legacy that she left behind. So that's the story of Polyclos.

[B]

Wow. Well told.

[A]

Thanks.

[B]

Yeah. Didn't see that coming. I also shout out again to your. Your new. Your new girl who's the. The sketch artist.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Jean Boylan. She's great. I mean, she seems like. I'm gonna read her book. I think it looks really interesting.

[B]

Yeah. I would like to know more about her.

[A]

Me too. I'm gonna do a little. Do a little deep dive on her.

[B]

I think this is one of the first episodes we've done in a while. That's under two hours.

[A]

I can't. I. Honestly, with tech issues, I can't believe it.

[B]

That's pretty literally shock.

[A]

That's honestly shocking.

[B]

All we do is. Yeah, maybe it's because I'm losing my voice.

[A]

I mean, honestly. Maybe we just felt like the time crunch of you losing your instrument so quickly.

[B]

It felt like the. The sands of the hourglass time. The sands of time were going away.

[A]

We're just filling up your throat.

[B]

Yes, that's how it does feel. Well, let's. While we still have maybe five minutes left with my instrument, maybe we hop over to Patreon.

[A]

Yeah, let's do a yappy hour. I want to hear all the all the scoop from the wedding. So we'll go talk about that. If you want to join us, it's over on patreon.com ATWDpodcast and we'll hopefully see. You want to buy tickets to our spring shows, you can go to in that's po drink.com live. We also have our book available anywhere fine books are sold. And you can find us on social media at ATWD Podcast M is the M. Schultz and I am X Teen Schiefer. And thanks for being here today.

[B]

Wow. And that's why we drink.