E415 A Kiss of Silence and a Ghost Who Hates Mansplainers

Summary

Summary of "And That's Why We Drink" - Episode E415: A Kiss of Silence and a Ghost Who Hates Mansplainers

Release Date: January 19, 2025
Hosts: Christine Schiefer & Em Schulz
Description: Murder and the paranormal finally meet! Grab your wine and milkshakes and join us every Sunday for some chilling ghost stories and downright terrifying true crime stories. The world's a scary place. And that's why we drink!

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Introduction

In Episode 415 of "And That's Why We Drink," hosts Christine Schiefer and Em Schulz delve deep into the haunted corridors of the May Stringer House in Brooksville, Florida. This episode masterfully intertwines true crime with paranormal investigation, offering listeners a captivating journey through history, ghostly apparitions, and unresolved mysteries.

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1. The Haunted May Stringer House: A Historical Overview
Timeframe: 03:05 - 14:00

Christine and Em kick off the episode by introducing the May Stringer House, a Victorian-era plantation home steeped in a tumultuous history. Originally built in the 1840s, the house was home to the May family, including John May and his wife Marina, along with their children Matilda, Annie, and Jessie May.

• Notable Quote [06:01] Christine:
  "It's great how we can just be in a room with and not speak, you know, and just sit in the silence."

The house has transitioned through various owners, each adding layers to its haunted legacy. Notably, Frank Saxon, Marina's second husband and a Confederate soldier, introduced further dark energies, including involvement in violent acts against emancipated individuals.

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2. Encounters with the Paranormal: Ghost Stories and Legends
Timeframe: 14:00 - 44:00

The heart of the episode centers on the myriad of spirits believed to inhabit the May Stringer House. Christine and Em recount numerous ghostly encounters and the folklore surrounding them.

• Marina: Often seen in elegant dresses, Marina's apparition is associated with quilting and domestic spheres.
  Notable Quote [64:04] Em:
  "So Marina is seen often, or we think this is Marina. There is a woman that is seen a lot in a dress with her hair up."

• Mr. Nasty (Gary): A malevolent spirit residing in the attic, known for his aggressive demeanor towards women.
  Notable Quote [73:44] Christine:
  "He just is, like, trying to push you, like, like, get out."

• James: The ghost of a World War I soldier, initially hostile but later more benign after acknowledgment from the hosts.
  Notable Quote [74:58] Em:
  "He has an artsy side, you know."

• Frank Saxon: Connected to the historical violence on the property, Frank's spirit is entwined with dark past events and unresolved conflicts.
  Notable Quote [25:38] Christine:
  "She knows how to pick him. That's what I say about Marina."

The hosts detail specific incidents, such as unexplained noises, apparitions, and physical sensations experienced by visitors and investigators alike.

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3. Ghost Tours and the Living History Museum
Timeframe: 44:00 - 81:00

Currently operating as a living history museum, the May Stringer House offers ghost tours that attract paranormal enthusiasts from all over. Christine and Em discuss the logistics of these tours, the involvement of seasoned docents like Bonnie and Autumn, and the integration of historical exhibits with active hauntings.

• Notable Quote [43:42] Christine:
  "We all knew that."

They highlight special events like Ghost Fest, an annual Halloween attraction that amplifies paranormal activities due to its festive but eerie ambiance.

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4. Personal Experiences and Reflections
Timeframe: 81:00 - 123:00

Christine and Em share their personal ghost hunting experiences at the May Stringer House, including intense encounters with spirits like Mr. Nasty and James. They also delve into broader discussions about the portrayal of ghosts in media, expressing strong opinions against horror adaptations of beloved characters, notably deriding the film "Winnie the Pooh Blood and Honey."

• Notable Quote [50:14] Em:
  "No, Rabbit's the angriest one."

The hosts emphasize the importance of respectful and authentic representations of the paranormal, contrasting it with sensationalized horror genres.

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5. Conclusion and Future Plans
Timeframe: 123:00 - End

As the episode draws to a close, Christine and Em reflect on their journey with the podcast, celebrating eight years of delivering spine-chilling stories and true crime narratives. They tease upcoming content, including tours, new cities, and expanded storytelling mediums like books and Patreon-exclusive content.

• Notable Quote [122:26] Em:
  "Happy concepisode. Eight years of happiness with you, Christine."

The hosts express gratitude towards their listeners, attributing their longevity and success to the dedicated support from their audience.

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• [06:01] Christine:
  "It's great how we can just be in a room with and not speak, you know, and just sit in the silence."

• [14:00] Em:
  "I hope the little girl heard me say that."

• [25:38] Christine:
  "She knows how to pick him. That's what I say about Marina."

• [43:42] Christine:
  "We all knew that."

• [50:14] Em:
  "No, Rabbit's the angriest one."

• [73:44] Christine:
  "He just is, like, trying to push you, like, like, get out."

• [122:26] Em:
  "Happy concepisode. Eight years of happiness with you, Christine."

---

Conclusion

Episode E415 of "And That's Why We Drink" offers an enthralling blend of true crime and paranormal exploration, anchored by the haunted legacy of the May Stringer House. Through detailed historical accounts, vivid ghost stories, and personal reflections, Christine and Em provide listeners with a comprehensive and chilling narrative that underscores the episode's title: in a world filled with fear, it's why we drink.

Transcript

[Em]

God, I love eva.

[Christine]

I also love Eva. Thank God for Zip Recruiter because it was the matching tool that brought us all together. You know, it's hard to hire for a business. We know that because we figured it out. But thankfully we had the easiest lesson ever because our first hire ever was through ZipRecruiter and it was of Eva.

[Em]

When we say it's easy, we're not kidding. Like within 24 hours of thinking we should hire someone, we had Eva.

[Christine]

Like, it's the best for people like us who just, like, do things.

[Em]

I can't right away. I can't imagine a world where you get a better ringing endorsement than from us. Where we literally went on ZipRecruiter and within 24 hours had EVA. Like the best thing that ever happened to us.

[Christine]

If you need to hire for your business and want an easier way to find qualified candidates, head to ZipRecruiter and right now you can try it for.

[Em]

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[Christine]

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[Em]

Oh, yes, that's.

[Christine]

That's right. I've been learning French on Rosetta Stone.

[Em]

Sortila Pel. Take out the trash.

[Christine]

What the. Folks, this is the best gift ever. I've given this to a few people already, which is a lifetime membership to Rosetta Stone, which is perfect for anyone looking to learn or improve their language skills.

[Em]

Rosetta Stone is the most trusted language learning program available on desktop or as an app. And it truly immerses you in the language you want to learn. Christine is going to be a little French lady in no time. I. I have no doubt. And Rosetta Stone has been trusted for over 30 years with millions of users offering an immersive language learning experience across 25 languages, including Spanish, Franc and Korean.

[Christine]

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[Em]

Don't put off learning that language. There's no better time than right now to get started today. And that's why we drink. Listeners can get Rosetta Stone's lifetime membership for 50% off, visit www.rosettastone.com drink. That's 50% off. Unlimited access to 25 language courses for the rest of your Life. Redeem your 50% off at www.rosettastone.com. drink today for yourself or as a gift that keeps. This is nice. It's.

[Christine]

It's great how we can just be in a room with and not speak, you know, and just sit in the silence.

[Em]

Honestly, I really do enjoy that. I'm currently in a house full of people terrified of silence. And so I just. I'm so tired of yapping. Anyway. Let's do our job.

[Christine]

Anyway.

[Em]

No, I. They're. My mom and I are finally at the point where we're butting heads quite a lot.

[Christine]

That took a while though. You've been there a long time.

[Em]

Well, I think it's cuz we were all six. We were all like away from.

[Christine]

Oh, you were quarantined within your own home, right? Okay.

[Em]

Yeah. And now that we're back in. In each other's faces, it. It did not take much time at all. But.

[Christine]

Well, and also we're all snowed in right now because of that big storm. So you've been stor. Snowed in longer than expected.

[Em]

Yeah, I was supposed to be home a week ago and I have two more days here, so I am ready to go home anyway. I appreciate that little, little, little kiss of silence. That was lovely.

[Christine]

Yeah, I thought it felt like eon. It felt like it stretched on for, for years because we don't usually sit in silence. But I thought that was really cathartic, those two second, two and a half seconds. I would say.

[Em]

Absolutely.

[Christine]

It's pretty powerful stuff.

[Em]

How, why, why did you need the silence? What's going on in your home?

[Christine]

Definitely not silence. Well, you know, while we're at it, I have this guy with me. This is my drink of choice today. This is a good old mez. I bought it from jungle gyms. And at the bottom here it says cola kisses orange.

[Em]

Oh, that's. It's like Romeo and Juliet.

[Christine]

Yeah, it's just, it's actually just as romantic and also, just as tragic. And also everybody dies at the end. So. So I'm drinking that. It's a Coca Cola. It's a German. I think it's a German drink. It's a cola mixed with, with some oh, it's Austrian cola and some orange. Like, some orange soda mixed together.

[Em]

I gathered when they're. They were kissing.

[Christine]

Well, I. Yeah, okay, but you also.

[Em]

Said literal exchanging of fluids.

[Christine]

Okay, but you also said something weird. What did you say again?

[Em]

I don't know. Start from day one. June 3rd, 1992. I'll let you know when the weird part happens.

[Christine]

Oh, I'm drinking today because. Look at Lee. Look at my. I got my first ever portrait done by Leona. Oh, I thought you're gonna be beautiful to you Ready? Here it is.

[Em]

Cue the screams. Wow. You know. You know, you're literally doing the Kermit dance in it. You're literally. Look at that. You're literally doing your creepy little lean when you dance. And you're always wearing black and an amulet. And you have demonic red eyes. The green part.

[Christine]

Actually, the red is my eyebrows. She said, because, of course, I have asked all these questions of the artist. I have, like, unprecedented access to the artist. And so I asked kind of some questions. I said, oh, my eyes are red. And she said, those are your eyebrows. And I said, oh, idiot. Dumbass. Okay. And then I said, oh, I like my belly button. And she said, that's your shirt. And I said the green part? And she said, yeah, the black part is your belly and the green is your shirt. I was like, watch my shirt. Like the size of a nickel, but.

[Em]

Okay, so it's like you're in a tank top that's two, three sizes too small. You know, that's the Most, like, realistic 3 year old drawing ever. Like, oh, here's your big grotesque stomach that can not even fit into the dime sized shirt I drew for you. That's real. That's real humbling.

[Christine]

And then she said, here, your ears are yellow and they're.

[Em]

They also disconnected from your face.

[Christine]

And I'm wearing purple shoes, which is nice.

[Em]

And the black mustache is real. Is that. I mean, that's real to me.

[Christine]

It's actually a big smile on my nose. So I. You're. It's honestly you who looks like a fool now. And then she drew this nice picture. She's never drawn, like, a person before, so I was like, oh, my gosh, this is very exciting. And I felt really honored that I was. I was the first one. She then drew Blaze, and for some reason, Blaze got a lot more hot Blaze. Normal features. He does have long red hair, which I don't really know where that came from. But he does also have arms, which, if you notice, didn't happen for me. And I asked, you know, where my arms? She's like, you don't need any. I was like, oh, yeah, okay.

[Em]

There's nothing probably even more so than a sleep paralysis demon. There's nothing more terrifying to me than a child with a crayon. Because what is gonna come out of your head?

[Christine]

So good, because have you seen those companies that make stuffies based on your kids drawings?

[Em]

And they all look nightmare fuel, but I love it.

[Christine]

Deranged. It's the funniest thing ever. I want to make like a little family.

[Em]

You have to make a family scary.

[Christine]

Like this stuffy would be. Would be nightmare fuel. So that's why I drink. I feel like I've, you know, Leanne has reached a new milestone where I'm gonna live in some sort of being put in my place over and over again as she paints different variations of me and explains what they are. So it's been good over here. But that's why I'm drinking my caffeinated makeout soda. What are you up to?

[Em]

I'm drinking the rest of this water and then I've got.

[Christine]

Oh, that's the saddest thing of this water. Oh, wow. I'm so glad you had something after that. Cuz it was really dark when you just held up like the, the. The last slug of a water bottle.

[Em]

This one I didn't fin. So I drink for a few reasons. I drink one because five minutes before this I dropped my microphone on hardwood floor. So if it sounds weird, that's why.

[Christine]

Oh, you sound really good. Maybe that's why.

[Em]

Oh, maybe it just knocked it into place.

[Christine]

Finally muted you.

[Em]

Oh, that's.

[Christine]

It slowered the volume significantly.

[Em]

Well, if at any point there's a weird. If I just start sounding like I'm echoing or something, that's why. So I live in paranoia about that. I got back in touch with some old friends, which is lovely. So that's why I drank this week.

[Christine]

Like local ones in Virginia.

[Em]

Yeah, I. There were people that I've thought for years, like I should reach out to them. And then I finally did and I. It's been very nice to get back in touch with them.

[Christine]

Did you get. Get lunch at the diner? Is that what people do in Virginia to catch up?

[Em]

It feels like you'd go to a.

[Christine]

Little diner and like catch up in Virginia for some reason.

[Em]

I feel like everyone here does have their favorite diner. I have not. Oh, I did actually go to a diner. Yeah, I do. My, my favorite one, actually. I went with Allison when she was in Town Another old friend Another old friend of yours stole away oh, the main reason I drink. I forgot to tell you, last time we recorded, and it's, to me, a biggie. I feel like, to the. And that's why I drink community. It's a biggie is I went down to my old college stomping grounds last week, which includes where I used to go ghost hunting and stomping. I stomped around when I was ghost hunting, for sure.

[Christine]

Stomp around everywhere you go.

[Em]

I do have a heavy heel. Yes. But I. So I went down to Yorktown where I used to go ghost hunting, and I. It was like I hadn't been back since college, and so it was my first time, like, having a memory lane moment.

[Christine]

And, guys, that's over a decade ago for us. If you're not keeping track or you.

[Em]

Don'T know, I'm done talking about it.

[Christine]

Come on, own reality. M. Come on, own reality.

[Em]

It. It. It doesn't. It doesn't feel like. Like much farther than. It doesn't feel like five years, but when I hear 10, I go, oh, wow, it has been a while. But so I went down there, and it was a cathartic moment. When I left college, I was in a pretty sour spot. And I really. I know I says before, I really love college, but not only that, I really love my college town. It was, like, the perfect, ideal little town to go to college in. And I had so many great memories there. But then when I left, I left kind of in a hurry, and I didn't get to appreciate and say goodbye to a lot of stuff. And so it was a very nostalgic moment for me. But while I was there, I literally went to. To the old buildings that I used to go ghost hunting in. And my favorite one that I used to go ghost hunting in all the time has sadly changed ownership and kind of to an. Like, I'm not gonna say the location because I don't feel like, you know, ratting people out Totally. But the guy that worked there was, like, not friendly. He was like, definitely the manager there. And I.

[Christine]

What kind of business was it? Is it like.

[Em]

It was like a. Like a food coffee shop kind of.

[Christine]

Oh, okay. Okay. So it's not like you went into a ghost hunting establishment. Like, it was like a building that you used to ghost hunt in, but it's a different.

[Em]

I used to go hunt there every week for years. Yeah. But it was not.

[Christine]

The building is not like, where the ghost hunting group is located or something. Like, he's not the manager Of a ghost hunting thing.

[Em]

He's like, okay, it used to be something else. And we had permission to go ghost hunting there.

[Christine]

Okay? So he's like, you no longer have that permission.

[Em]

Well, I didn't even want to ask that. I didn't even really. I actually wasn't even going to say anything, but when I was there, I just asked, like, an employee who was on him. He was just like a typical mansplaining guy, that's all. Like, he didn't do anything further than that. But I was just like, this is not your moment. I'm not.

[Christine]

Good vibes.

[Em]

I'm having a memory lane moment. And now a man. Now you're, you know.

[Christine]

Yeah, no man came in.

[Em]

It's like, why are you here? You're ruining my time. But so I asked one of the employees. I was like, oh, when did you guys change? Like, how long has this business been here? That's all I wanted to know. I was like, how long has it been since I've been back? And he just jumped in and he went, oh, it's been closed for 15 years. And I was like, no. He said, before we got here, it's been closed forever. And I was like, no, it hasn't. I literally used to come here all the time.

[Christine]

What a weirdo.

[Em]

He just, like, wanted to say something, I guess, and he was like, no, it's been like. It was like 10 years since we moved in. And I did the math and I was like, I literally was here that then like, what are you talking? But so I said something where I just kind of wanted to shut it down. I was like, oh, really? Because I was here 10 years ago. I used to be here every week. And he went, no, no, no, you're wrong. And I went, okay, fine, buddy. Yeah. And so just to, like, I don't know, I was. I was being a little petty, I guess. I don't know how petty it really sounded, but to me, it felt like a real humdinger of a lie.

[Christine]

Can't wait.

[Em]

And I was like, oh, is this place so haunted by that little girl?

[Christine]

And a little girl who hates mansplainers.

[Em]

Yeah, you know what? By the way, she did fucking hate men, so.

[Christine]

Yeah, no wonder.

[Em]

And he said, oh, yeah, it's still haunted. And I went, yeah, I used to be really good friends with the ghosts here, so. And I just kind of laughed. Like. It didn't sound like anything to him probably, but to me, I was like, I hope the little girl heard me say that.

[Christine]

And I honestly sick him Promise you she did.

[Em]

Yeah, but that's the goal. I did say hi to her. I went. Just so you know, I haven't forgotten you. I still think about you all the time. And because of you, I still work with ghosts.

[Christine]

No wonder he was like, get out of my restaurant. You're scaring the customers.

[Em]

No, I went right up there, and I. I went right back to the exact room where all the stuff used to happen. And I. I just gave a little moment. I said, just so you know, I hope to be back, but, you know, I haven't forgotten you and still think about you. And we. We had a really nice relationship together. I really like that ghost. She was really lovely.

[Christine]

So do you think she stayed there?

[Em]

I don't know.

[Christine]

Did you feel like she was there when you were talking?

[Em]

I. I like to think that I felt something. I might have just been, like, kind of placebo affecting myself, but I felt like someone was there.

[Christine]

Did you tell her to stay there or did you.

[Em]

I did. My. Goodbye. Goodbye. Goodbye. I was leaving.

[Christine]

Yeah. I was like, maybe she came with you. Yeah.

[Em]

If she did, I. I have made it clear I'm not interested in that. But anyway, it was just like a bittersweet moment because I used to go there all the time, and I was hoping to actually, like, get my usual order and everything, and then I showed up, and it was a different business.

[Christine]

And that, anyway, is a bummer.

[Em]

Yeah. But I. It was. It was. To me, it's. It was also my version, I guess, of a ghost update for everybody. So.

[Christine]

I love a ghost update. Are we allowed to know the girl's name? Did she have a name?

[Em]

I don't know if she had a name. All I remember from her, which I did say, like, her stats to her, because I was like, in case you don't remember me, I just want to tell you what I know about you, and I haven't forgotten.

[Christine]

In case you don't remember me, let me tell you all about you.

[Em]

Let me just be, like, an old, like, Italian mobster and, like, recite your.

[Christine]

Own life, all your children's names and ages. Yeah.

[Em]

No, but my memory is that we. And we did. I mean, I was there for years. We would ask the same questions over and over again consistently. We got that there was a boy and a girl there. The boy was around 14, the girl was around 12. They were either brother and sister or they were such close friends that they were, like, siblings. Oh, they. There was. We think the boy died in the closet.

[Christine]

Oh, geez.

[Em]

Not in a. In A. The usual way someone might die in a closet. But this was back in, like, the. During the Revolutionary War era. And the. What we've gathered is that we think he was looking out the window and he realized that troops were coming into town. He got scared. They came into the house and they found him in the closet. And.

[Christine]

Oh, my God.

[Em]

That's. That's the. The story that we were able to kind of piece together. I don't know how true it is. And the girl is the most famous one. Everyone apparently has a story with the girl. She's the one who I heard, like, the giggling and the footsteps and so.

[Christine]

And you taught her about cook ice cream cookies.

[Em]

I did. And I taught. That was the house where I taught the ghosts about the Internet.

[Christine]

That's right. Yeah. And cell phones.

[Em]

And cell phones, yeah. That was where they used my cell phone. Anyway, a lot of good memories there.

[Christine]

So that's, like, what I am. Like, every time you talk about your ghost hunting days, I picture that room. I mean, I don't know what it looks like, but, like, I have a picture in my head of, like, the room where you talk to the girl ghost.

[Em]

I took a picture for you.

[Christine]

Actually, you should send it to me. Maybe I should draw a picture of what I saw.

[Em]

Oh, that'd be great, Han. So I won't send it to you yet, but let me know when you.

[Christine]

I don't know how to draw a picture.

[Em]

Ask Leona.

[Christine]

Oh, my God. Is this her? Is this a girl?

[Em]

Wait a minute.

[Christine]

Wait. She has red eyebrows.

[Em]

I think your kid automatically writes and I think automatically draws. Automatically draws. She nailed it. Anyway, so I was. I was happy to be there. It was a lot of closure for me, but it was also like, oh, it had to be ruined by a man, you know? But it was nice to be back in a room that I've just thought about forever.

[Christine]

So that's why I drink. Nice. I hope she was happy to see you. I'm sure she was. If she's still there.

[Em]

I hope so. Her and I never had beef. I also went to the spot where I got detained by the police.

[Christine]

Oh, that's. That's. That's thrilling. Did you tell the guy that? Oh, don't worry. I just got arrested here a few times.

[Em]

You don't even want me here. I'm a bad boy.

[Christine]

Yeah, I'm bad. Watch out.

[Em]

I'm so bad. Not only do the I'm coming through your ghosts, but I am a bad boy, so.

[Christine]

And I know the names of all your children. And their ages. I'm also in the mob.

[Em]

Anyway, I. I hope he's, you know, I guess. I don't know. I hope he's getting a little haunted today, that's all.

[Christine]

I do too. Maybe like just moving his stuff around or making his coffee too cold, you.

[Em]

Know, I hope, I hope she pulls a Casper and like, Kai's shoes together when he mansplains again. You know, something like that. Anyway. And I drink my water. So is that it? Do we just go into this?

[Christine]

I think that's it. I think we've caught up each other and the world great. And it's time to learn something new.

[Em]

Let's be honest, sticking to New Year's resolutions is hard. Everybody has those grand plans to hit the gym more often. But most of us know how hard it is to leave the comfort of our beds when it's still dark outside. Can confirm I did it to light outside. What do you mean? Now imagine if you can make your resolutions automatic. Maybe they won't drag you to the gym. But with Acorns, saving and investing becomes a breeze because it's all done automatically.

[Christine]

This is very cool, right? Because you can. You can feel like you are doing something awesome and new and fresh and, you know, good for your finances. But like, they help you along the way, right? It's not like, oh, you have to like, drag yourself anywhere. Thankfully. And thankfully, nobody's dragging me to the gym. I would not ever. Today's episode is sponsored by Acorns. If you can't tell, Acorns makes it easy to start automatically saving and investing so your money has a chance to grow for you, your kids and your retirement.

[Em]

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[Christine]

That's so kickass. Head to acorns.com drink or download the Acorns app to start saving and investing for your future today. Paid client endorsement compensation provides incentive to positively promote Acorns tier one compensation provided investing involves risk. Acorns Advisors LLC and SEC registered investment advisor. View important [e-mail] Drink okay, I've got a problem.

[Em]

Always.

[Christine]

Well, not always. Well, maybe always, but this one's specific to grocery shopping. I don't always have time to shop for groceries, especially for any dietary needs in my family or, you know, for a toddler. And then there's Blaze with All this protein and then there's just me. It's just tough to stay on top with all that. And that's why I'm so obsessed with Hungry Root, especially as I'm snowed in. Currently, Hungry Root has saved the day.

[Em]

You literally just tell them about your goals and food preferences and they can fill your cart for you with personalized recommendations that get smarter as they learn more about what you like or don't like.

[Christine]

I just, I love Hungry Root. I think it's. I think it's been a game changer in our family. What's truly amazing also is there's no high fructose corn syrup artificial sweeteners, no preservatives in any of Hungry Roots food, which is great because I can't eat artificial sweeteners and I don't really like to. And they only source top quality meat and seafood, but they also do a lot of really good vegan options. Speaking from firsthand experience, you are going.

[Em]

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[Christine]

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[Em]

Okay, I'm very excited about this. This is like I actually was intentionally trying to find a story with some like, short, like short information today. Of course, that's when I finally find one that's long.

[Christine]

Yes, that's how this goes. Always. Yep.

[Em]

So we're gonna. I. I assume we're gonna try to rapid fire here, but this is the May Stringer house and it is in Florida.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Em]

Single other crazy thing has ever happened.

[Christine]

No, certainly not. It's very calm down there, Very normal.

[Em]

This is in Brooksville, Florida.

[Christine]

And first of all, that does not sound like the name of a place in Florida. Immediately I should be saying this.

[Em]

This is from Wacky Town, Florida.

[Christine]

Seriously, Brooksville feels like Idaho. You know, Florida has to be something like Tortoise, Tortoise Shell Bay or some. I was just down there and I'm clearly totally over it.

[Em]

You're missing Tortoise Shell Bay.

[Christine]

I'm so Florida. I actually did find a tor. Well, I didn't. My dad brought us to a Tortoise Burrow and we saw them, the mommy come out and it was really cute. And then she saw us and was like, get the fuck Away from us. And we were like, sorry, it's not.

[Em]

Called a human day.

[Christine]

Literally. She was like, get. Like, how many times do I have.

[Em]

To tell you, Bernie, get out of here, Bernie.

[Christine]

Stop bringing your weird friends and family over to my burrow. Anyway, I did see a tortoise, but that's about all the excitement to be had there for me.

[Em]

Good to know. Well, it's because you missed Brooksville.

[Christine]

I missed Brooksville.

[Em]

And let's see. This house is on the National Register of Historic Places. I feel like I always have to say that for some reason.

[Christine]

Where is Brooks? Is that, like, what part of Florida do you know?

[Em]

Or, like, asking me things? I just don't know.

[Christine]

Oh, my God. You don't even know this. Okay, Brooke, what is it?

[Em]

Really thought we were just. I thought Florida was a good enough.

[Christine]

I mean. No, because there's also, like, Miami, but then there's like.

[Em]

I think it's near. It's like a Henrico County. Maybe it's near Tampa. I saw, like, a lot of my sources were Tampa news outlets.

[Christine]

Okay. Wow. Wow. Brooksville's a city and county seat of Hernando County, Florida.

[Em]

Hernando county, not Henrico.

[Christine]

Okay. This is apparently a much bigger town than I thought. Maybe. Let's see. It's. Oh, you're right. M. So like, Tampa area, but, like, far north.

[Em]

Hold that right out of my.

[Christine]

You're so good at things.

[Em]

I know. So obviously this place is near Tampa.

[Christine]

We all knew that.

[Em]

And this house is sometimes referred to as Florida's most haunted house. And as soon as I saw that, I went, ugh, this is not going to be a short story.

[Christine]

No. And also, like, really, isn't there all that in Key West?

[Em]

But okay, like, what happened to the St. Augustine lighthouse?

[Christine]

Right. I guess it's a house. Maybe that's what they're saying. Like, this is technically a house.

[Em]

Yeah. I don't know, because I. Yeah. When it comes to Robert the Doll's house, there's.

[Christine]

There's. Hemingway's house. There's a lot of haunted houses.

[Em]

When it comes to Most Haunted, I'm always like, okay, so you're in a listicle that's like, yeah, right, right, right.

[Christine]

Right, right, right, right, right. I guess anybody could say that. Technically. Yeah.

[Em]

Until. You know what we should do? We should come up with the. The award.

[Christine]

I love that.

[Em]

Why not call it a ghosty? A spooky. Something like that. And whoever wins the spooky is the most haunted until next year when someone else can win the spooky okay, so.

[Christine]

It'S like a place. Like a place that is most haunted. Okay. Okay, cool. I love this idea.

[Em]

And okay, here we go. So it is like one of those painted lady Victorian homes. It has gingerbread trim. Love that.

[Christine]

I love that.

[Em]

And it is now a four story house. It was originally a two story, four room house. I only mentioned that because there's a fun fact that comes up about that. But these days it's a four story house. It was originally a plantation home. Yikes. There were 56 enslaved people here in one given year, according to an 1860 census. And it was remodeled later to become the four story house it is today. It was about half that size back then. As you can predict super racist history here. Not only were there a lot of plantations in the whole area of Brooksville, Florida, but there was intense KKK activity here. The. They were actively trying to remove indigenous people still living there all the way through the 1800s. The city itself, Brooksville, is literally named after a guy who physically beat up an abolitionist on the senate floor. It's.

[Christine]

And here's your award. The town key. It's just like, what in the world?

[Em]

Okay, so the first person who lived on the property that we know. Let me put it this way. The first white person to live here, it was in the 1840s.

[Christine]

The person who discovered it for the first time ever.

[Em]

You're on to something. I get it.

[Christine]

I know how it goes.

[Em]

He had. His name was Richard Wiggins and he moved here under the. Yikes. Indian Removal Act.

[Christine]

Dick Wiggins.

[Em]

You don't say Dick wig. Yeah, that's exactly right. He. The. So he was a homesteader and he moved here under this act that basically said, oh, you should. If you move on this property and live here for five years, then we're going to give you 100, 160 acres. And it was basically a way to very quickly push people out. So he lived on the property, but only like 15 years later. The. The house that we talk about in this story was built. And it was built by a guy named John May, who, fun fact, with his 56 enslaved people in just one year, was the second largest owner of enslaved people in the area. So that's the person we're working with. He and the last horse across the finish line.

[Christine]

That's right.

[Em]

So he and his wife Marina, and then their daughters Matilda and Annie are the ones that moved in the house. This is why I mentioned the setup of the house when he built it. Not only was he like already a character, I wouldn't like to break bread with. But he's also a little slimy because he built the house very weirdly to avoid taxes. So, for example, this guy, their staircase was outside, and basically the house was detached, so it was almost like a first floor and a loft.

[Christine]

So he's one of those where he's, like, just trying skirt rules that like, yes, he can perfectly find, follow, but chooses not to because he thinks he's above it. Okay. Yes, Excellent.

[Em]

Lucky for our story, three years in, he's dead, so.

[Christine]

Oh, good. He fell down the stairs one. One summer day, One outside staircase of a swamp.

[Em]

So he dies of tuberculosis and his funeral is in the parlor. Fun fact. The. His family continued to live there, and his wife remarried in the same parlor that his funeral was in.

[Christine]

Oh, hi. I thought you were about to say she remodeled. And I was like, good for her. She put the staircase inside.

[Em]

Can you imagine? That would be lovely.

[Christine]

She remarried. Okay.

[Em]

Especially in the funeral home, if you're gonna have an outdoor staircase to your.

[Christine]

House that's insane in Florida, it's like moss covered and has alligators on it. If you can't convince me otherwise, it's.

[Em]

At least a snake a month, for sure.

[Christine]

At least a snake.

[Em]

Those little lizards or the iguanas, you.

[Christine]

Know, they'd have to. You'd have to, like, remove them every time you go up the stairs because those iguana things are heavy. I.

[Em]

They. They do look heavy.

[Christine]

I don't know why I know that. I think I just assume that. I don't think I know that. I think I'm just assuming because I haven't picked one up.

[Em]

Like, they're the. Like, they feel like the case of, like a case of beer or something.

[Christine]

Yeah, right. Because they, like, thud down from a tree and it's like, whoa, you gotta be a weighty little boy.

[Em]

I certainly don't like it. I'll tell you.

[Christine]

Get out of my staircase.

[Em]

So, yeah, he dies, she remarries in the same parlor, which I guess the parlor was just the spillover room because it seems like everything happens in a part.

[Christine]

The event space. Yeah.

[Em]

So she remarries to a guy named Frank Saxon, who doesn't seem much better than the first guy.

[Christine]

Good. She. She knows how to pick him. That's what I say about Marina.

[Em]

You know What? In the 1860s, when all you gotta do is.

[Christine]

I guess you don't get to pick. Maybe you don't get to pick them. You know what I mean? As a woman. Yeah.

[Em]

She was like, I've got two Little girls, I'm hungry. Come on in.

[Christine]

There's an iguana on the stairs. Somebody help.

[Em]

That's exactly right. I would also. I would, dare I say, marry a man if he would handle all of the. Oh, heavy animals.

[Christine]

For sure. For sure. At least there's something they're good for. You know.

[Em]

You know what? You. I'll. That's exactly right. That's about. You heard that other words to me.

[Christine]

Pick up my beer and move.

[Em]

You know what?

[Christine]

Out of the way.

[Em]

Isn't it funny? Leona only drew him with arms, so.

[Christine]

Wow, Em, I think you are onto something.

[Em]

Leona was saying you don't need arms because Daddy's gonna handle all of you.

[Christine]

Rest those hands of yours.

[Em]

Rest those dainty little digits. I've got it from here. So she marries Frank. Frank is a Civil War soldier. Guess what side he played on. He is known as a Confederate hero. What does that mean? Good oxymoron to me. And fun fact, he was also casually involved in the murder of a local black reverend who was formerly enslaved by the family he just married into.

[Christine]

Ew. What?

[Em]

This reverend who you know is now free, He. Is there a better way to say that?

[Christine]

Oh, I think emancipated, maybe.

[Em]

Emancipated? He was now reverend. He official. He officiated interracial marriages. I guess there was one couple that got married, remember back then, that was not legal.

[Christine]

Right.

[Em]

Of course. The town racists. Probably 99 of the people there hated this. And there is some. I don't know the entire exact gossip, but there were a few squabbles where the group would, like, approach this reverend and threaten him about, like, hey, don't do that anymore. At some point, the group approaches the reverend again. One person in the crowd, who was not Frank, but it was certainly his friend, shot the reverend and Jesus.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Em]

And not only that, but during these, like, white supremacist, white supremacist riots, they also, like, set the courthouse on fire and destroyed a lot of the, like, testimonies about this event so they can maybe get away with it.

[Christine]

And. And Frank's, like, part of this group.

[Em]

He's complicit in the behavior.

[Christine]

Got it. Okay. Okay.

[Em]

And so anyway, a lot of the fun fact, the history about this house is also now never going to be found out because records of this house were at that courthouse and got set on fire. So.

[Christine]

Great, great.

[Em]

We don't totally know anything after that squabble. So, anyway, Frank squabble this little squabble. Big, fat, racist, murderous Squabble. Oh, God. So that's Frank. He's a confederate hero who also has friends with people who kill emancipated people. Great.

[Christine]

Super duper. So what could go wrong?

[Em]

I know. Again, Marina, girl, I hope it's because you're desperate, not because you think they're actually that cute. Yeah. So the group. Oh, no. So that's it. That's the history to him. So Frank, second husband, and Marina have a son. The son ends up dying at five weeks old. Later on they have a daughter who if you don't remember anything else from this, remember that her name was Jessie May. She's our main ghost.

[Christine]

Oh, and wasn't the last name. Oh, oh. So that's just her last name.

[Em]

I think in honor of her previous.

[Christine]

That's her middle name.

[Em]

Husband, they named her middle name May.

[Christine]

Gotcha. In honor of her mom's.

[Em]

Late previous relationship. And also maybe like connect to connect her to her other two daughters that she has.

[Christine]

Yeah, that makes sense.

[Em]

Their last name's May.

[Christine]

And May is a nice, like, middle name anyway. It's like. Yeah, has a nice ring to it.

[Em]

I will say. Interesting that Frank was supportive of that. So I agree.

[Christine]

But maybe it's like when someone dies, you know, it's like. Well, that's. Yeah, it was just more accepted. I don't know.

[Em]

Yeah. So they had the son who died at five weeks. Then they have Jessie May, but Marina dies during childbirth.

[Christine]

Oh, no.

[Em]

And Jessie May also dies at 3 years old.

[Christine]

Oh, no. Geez. Okay.

[Em]

Yeah. And we don't know the reason for that, but fun fact, Jessie May's only portrait was her postmortem portrait. And it is now in the parlor of the house.

[Christine]

Oh, God.

[Em]

But I think it's a way to like, honor her. She seems to be a very popular ghost there and she seems to really like when people mention her. So maybe the picture of sister conversation.

[Christine]

I have like full body completely covered in chills for some reason.

[Em]

Is it her?

[Christine]

I don't know. I hope not. Well, let me see that picture of her.

[Em]

What's her name?

[Christine]

Jesse May.

[Em]

Jesse May. Post mortem photograph of a three year old. Good luck.

[Christine]

Sorry, everybody. Oh, wow. Oh, wow.

[Em]

It's wild that they do that. I get why they used to back then, but.

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah, because it's like you didn't know you would need a picture, you know, before they passed and then it's like.

[Em]

Well, or if it's like the only. The only memory I'll have of them.

[Christine]

Yeah, exactly, exactly.

[Em]

Take the picture.

[Christine]

Okay, this is starting to get really sad and weird. Okay, I'm out. Bye.

[Em]

So that's the history of the May family who lived here, is that basically, Marina had two relationships here. Children came from both of them. She ended up dying in the house. Her husband, her first husband died in the house. So anyway, the. I don't know what happens after. I don't know what happens after that. But in an ideal world, Frank now raises all three of. Or no, Frank raises his two stepdaughters and is no longer a white supremacist. That's the dream. That would be.

[Christine]

That would be great, wouldn't it?

[Em]

Yeah. When he. When he turns back on everything he ever fought for.

[Christine]

So we can dream.

[Em]

After they end up leaving the house, it is now owned by the Stringer family. Hence May Stringer house. The house is owned by Dr. Sheldon Stringer. Sheldon Stringer. I love the alliteration.

[Christine]

Good one. That's a good one.

[Em]

His parents really went with it there. Fun fact. He loved the house of seven gables. And so apparently this house, when he got it, had three gables. And he went, ah, ah, ah. And he added four gables.

[Christine]

I know just what to do.

[Em]

It's like my signature touch will be four gables.

[Christine]

Okay. Wow.

[Em]

So fun fact, now it is literally a house of seven gables. Okay. And his. His house also was a clinic, which was very common back then if you were a doctor. So you'd make one of the floors your clinic. So already forget the indigenous people who probably died on the property, the enslaved people who probably died on the property. The May family who's now been here. Now it's a literal doctor's office happening. Even if people are surviving traumas like amputations and things like that, that energy is still there. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Christine]

And people are coming in and out all day.

[Em]

Yeah. And there is a theory. We have no proof of this, but it has been alleged that this was also not just his clinic, but he turned it into a sanatorium specifically for people enduring smallpox and yellow fever.

[Christine]

Oh, okay.

[Em]

In which case there's a lot more deaths. Oh, yeah. Which, by the way, in Fredericksburg we have an old school apothecary.

[Christine]

Oh, yeah, that's right.

[Em]

It looks like it does. And I took Allison when she was in town to the apothecary tour, and they show you how they used to do old fashioned amputations. Shuts up with all the old equipment and everything. Like, it looks like you're in an 1800s clinic room. And then apparently I was talking to the. The docent she's like our age, so I think she didn't feel like she totally had to be in character.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

And she, she said something. We were like, you know, just, just be real with us. Like how do you explain this to kids? And she said, she was like, oh, well, whenever we have like school tours come in, like whoever's like the rowdiest kid, I like amputate him.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Em]

She was like, he wants the attention so we let him sit and then we do the whole thing and like we, we do it, but it like. I guess the point of their school tour is that they like get to volunteer somebody to like do the amputation on, which if you're nine years old, I would obviously want to be that person so badly.

[Christine]

I do too. Yeah.

[Em]

So in some, I'm sure like in an adult way, it's like, hehehe. Like, it's because you're kind of being a bit of a pest. But as a kid, you know, he's like gonna talk about.

[Christine]

He's just like, this is my dream.

[Em]

Yeah, but. And then when I found out that they do like examples or like they like reenact it. I was like, why? Because you saw a room of 30 year olds, you didn't ask if we wanted to reenact it.

[Christine]

I would have to say for kids, what do you do for adults?

[Em]

I was like, had I known that before we were talking now, I would have raised my hand sky high to get my arm amputated.

[Christine]

Me, me, pick me.

[Em]

Just because it's so fascinating. And oh, they literally have a jar there still full of like live leeches. And homegirl just dunked her hand in the bowl and just picked up a leech and just showed it to no thank you. It. I was like, what?

[Christine]

They're alive in there.

[Em]

Like a real leech. Which by the way, talk about thuds. Because that thing, she was a big girl. Like it. I thought leeches were like little inchworms. That thing was like a, like a toad size.

[Christine]

Well, you know why they get big, right? Because they drink all the blood and. And then they swell up like a tick.

[Em]

Well, I asked her, I was like, why are you holding that girl? Like, are you. Isn't it gonna like suck your blood? And apparently they like feed them and like a diet that is not blood. So it's like he's, he's chunky because.

[Christine]

He does not eat blood. Right. Okay, that's fair.

[Em]

But, but so she was like, when they're not hungry, they won't suck on you. So she just felt com. But not knowing that and watching a girl stick her hand in a bowl full of live leeches, I was like, this is fear factor.

[Christine]

Like, feels like, it feels like I need to exit the room. Yeah.

[Em]

Yeah. And by the way, they literally had a basket full of hay in there. And I was like, oh, what's that? And she's like, oh, that's where the, the limbs go after you amputate. And I would. Oh my God. I was so.

[Christine]

Oh, like back in the day.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Because it soaks up the moisture. Yeah. The blood. Oh my God. Oh, my God.

[Em]

So fascinated by like old school.

[Christine]

Me too. Stuff so wild.

[Em]

Anyway, I was thinking about my own Fredericksburg apothecary when I was reading this and. Yeah, so. And they, but they sometimes didn't have painkillers back then because they were too expensive. So you just had to.

[Christine]

They would, they like ether you. They would like just like put over your face to like.

[Em]

Yeah, they. There was like a part at first where they. There was part of the, part of the procedure where they said, like, we hope this part is the part where you pass out from the pain because otherwise it gets worse. And I was like, oh my God. I was like, I was like that. I. Anyway, if you'd like to go on a really disturbing apothecary tour, go to Fredericksburg.

[Christine]

I mean, I would.

[Em]

It was fascinating. I was so glad.

[Christine]

I love old medical stuff too. I find it like deeply fascinating.

[Em]

I have a book I'm reading. It's not like, relax, but it's like a Heavily. Okay. Heavily pictured. Heavily.

[Christine]

Oh, I see.

[Em]

But it's. I actually bought it from that apothecary. It's like a revolutionary Warren stain.

[Christine]

Bears go to the doctor. Oh, sorry.

[Em]

It pretty much. But it's, it's very interesting. I'll give it to you when you're done or when I'm done. It's obviously if I can read it, you could like flip through it in like five seconds.

[Christine]

But I remember when you, when you mentioned that once before, I think I, I, I love, I would love to, to take a peek at that.

[Em]

Anyway, so he be the, the new family who's moved in is the Stringers. He's a doctor. He's turned this into a clinic on the bottom where maybe he's doing the same things I saw at my apothecary. He is also the family that expands it into a four story house. Three generations of his family live here. Eventually when it passes on from the Stringer family, it is owned by A few other families. It ends up in 1980. Flash forward to.

[Christine]

Wow. Very forward.

[Em]

It exchanges a lot of hands. It's like a. It's a rental space. At one point it gets sold to the historical society of the area, the Hernando Historical Museum Association. You don't have to remember that.

[Christine]

Hernando County.

[Em]

That's exactly right. So they. They bought it in 1980 and now they fundraise to try to preserve it. And all this stuff. Many of the rooms look as they did back then, especially because a lot of the town has done a lot of donations there to keep the decor looking as real, as authentic as possible. And they've also turned some of the rooms into exhibits to give you an idea of what life looked like back then. So, you know, I fucking love it.

[Christine]

I love that living history.

[Em]

I literally. Nothing gets me more jealous than a living history museum.

[Christine]

You and I like, you know, we want to just time travel for a living. That would be just a dream.

[Em]

I want it. I want it. Christine. Yeah, I. What did I say in that text to you last week? You know what I want? Say you want it.

[Christine]

To say you want it too. You're so. You're literally out of your mind is what you are.

[Em]

Oh, I have chills just thinking about it. So some of the rooms are a military room to me. Yawn. Then there's an 1880s doctor's office. Hello. And then there's a 1900s communication room with like old school radios and speakers and stuff like that. And obviously the museum is aware that they're incredibly haunted. They lean into the haunts, so it's not like they're trying to hide it, which I love. And they're. The museum hosts home tours, like of just the building, but also 2 hour to 6 hour ghost tours with equipment.

[Christine]

Oh, cool.

[Em]

And they have a house binder full of evidence from like 100 investigations.

[Christine]

Oh, that's awesome. You know, I love a binder with evidence.

[Em]

I love if I in the Living History Museum. Are you kidding me? There's two people I'm going to talk about who work there. One's name is Bonnie. We love Bonnie. And then there's Autumn. We also love Autumn, but we know less about Autumn. Okay, so Bonnie is like the main overnight docent. She calls herself the docent. I don't know if that's. If there's a better word for that. But she is the one who does all of the overnight ghost stuff because apparently everyone else is too scared. But she's been there for like almost 20 years. Wow. She really just loves this place. The expert, she says that ghost wise, this house is like Grand Central Station for ghosts. That there is just stuff coming in and out all the goddamn time. And there are, let's see. Oh, apparently the. At least four or five of the Ma and Saxons are buried on the property. So John May's family and Frank, both of Marina's husbands, have family buried on the property. Okay.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Em]

And. And plus, on top of that, there's the ghosts. Like I said, indigenous people, enslaved people, stringers, doctors, patients, family who's buried there, antiques that have been donated to the place, that carry energy. All those spirits might be there.

[Christine]

True.

[Em]

And around 2002, Bonnie was working there, and a paranormal team came in and said, hey, we, you know, it's a. It's rumored through town that this place is haunted. Can we do a ghost hunt here? And it went so well, and they got so much stuff, they ended up coming back five more times.

[Christine]

Oh, my gosh.

[Em]

And they ended up telling the staff, like, if you're trying to raise funds, like, why are you not offering ghost tours? Like, this is a jackpot situation. So ever since then, the house has been doing the ghost tours to raise funds for preservations, for preserving the house. And at least 80 different teams have come through throughout that time.

[Christine]

That's a lot.

[Em]

Another way that they raise funds. Every Halloween, they put on this event called Ghost Fest, where they turn the haunted house into a haunted house attraction. They also do, like, the food trucks and fortune tellers and all that. And after this event, so. Right. Also, people are coming in and out a lot, so that's ramping up activity. Plus, it's Halloween, All Hallows Eve. They say that around this time, the activity is always higher in the house, and it takes a second for things to settle back down.

[Christine]

But now it's so fascinating. I don't know, I just find that interesting. Like, it, like, riles things up, you know, kind of like a. Like a renovation or something.

[Em]

Well, okay, so I. I thought the same thing. And I always wonder, like, if that's a good thing or a bad thing. Like, are you now just inviting more things into the house?

[Christine]

Right, right, right.

[Em]

I don't know. It seems to work for them. So now all I'm gonna do is just list for the rest of time. It seems different ghosts that people.

[Christine]

Read the binder. Read the binder.

[Em]

I feel like I'm reading the binder. So in the house, people hear, obviously, voices. They feel something tap on their back. They hear whispering, doors open and close. Lights turn on and off. People have experienced weird smells. Like sometimes it's normal, like perfume or cigar or food. But then it's like, oh, death. Just random smell of death.

[Christine]

Cool.

[Em]

Women feel spider webs on them, which I know you've felt a lot before.

[Christine]

Yeah, that's actually usually Eva's. I have definitely felt that. But Eva usually feels like there's. She thinks that there's like. You know when you have like a hair, a long hair on your arm and you're trying to pull it off. She gets that feeling a lot when we go ghost hunting. Like.

[Em]

Yeah. It's usually the first thing she says.

[Christine]

Yeah, it's kind of. It's scary because it's like a physical thing. You know, it feels like something's touching you. Like it's too close. Too close.

[Em]

It's always. Yeah. I feel like whenever Eva says she feels spider webs on her, it's her saying it's starting, you know, I know.

[Christine]

It always feels like. And here we go.

[Em]

So that happens a lot for women in the house. They feel the spider webs.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Em]

They're in the attic. There's a bed, like a. Just a leftover bed. And it messes itself up all the time.

[Christine]

Oh, like the bedding?

[Em]

Yeah. Like, they'll go into the room. It's totally fine. They'll leave for five seconds and come back in. The bed's a mess.

[Christine]

Yuck.

[Em]

Shoes in the rooms. Because remember, they make it. They still make it look like it's a living history. So they have clothes and stuff.

[Christine]

I keep forgetting that. I'm like, does someone forget the bed? Okay. Oh, no. They have it up there for, like, show. Okay.

[Em]

So shoes in the room will move on their own.

[Christine]

Are they like old timey shoes?

[Em]

I guess so.

[Christine]

Oh, well, that would be weird if they were New Balance, I guess. Never mind.

[Em]

They're actually my back to the future Nike airbags.

[Christine]

Honestly, those would get stolen so fast.

[Em]

They get swiped by me. Yeah.

[Christine]

Actually, they'd be put in the lost and found at the airport, which is where I believe I. I put them.

[Em]

Well, people also hear crashes and bangs, knocks. Thuds. The alarms inside the house get set off all the time. I'm sure it's one of those houses that, like, the. The police anymore.

[Christine]

They're like, oh, not again. And then they make the rookie do it.

[Em]

Yeah. People feel breath in their face. They hear crying. Specifically when they turn the vacuum on. I wonder if it's just too loud. And they've. Oh, and they're like, what the hell is this thing?

[Christine]

Well, I wonder if they just start crying.

[Em]

Oh, sorry. I should say sorry. They hear, like, children crying.

[Christine]

Lady, why would it make you cry? Oh, okay. I wonder if, like, it's. You know how you use static, like a spirit box to hear voices. Like, I wonder if it's that, like, humming, like, white noise that, like, lets you hear the sound.

[Em]

Interesting, because my thought was, like, maybe that energy is, like, messing with their energy or something.

[Christine]

Because when I have Liana's baby monitor on, I can, like. You can, like, hear. It almost feels like you can hear more of, like, different. I don't know. I don't know. It's weird. They're saying about how the baby. How, like, a white noise makes it feel like you're hearing things that aren't there necessarily.

[Em]

If that's not in a movie, it ought to be.

[Christine]

I'm sure it is. I'm sure it is because it's like a. It's quite a phenomenon, especially for sleep deprived parents.

[Em]

Speaking of horror movies, I gotta tell you, I've. Since I've been landlocked, my stepbrother and I have made it a thing where, like, every night we're watching a horror movie and we watch both movies. There's two of these somehow, the. The Winnie the Pooh horror movie.

[Christine]

What?

[Em]

It's called Winnie the Pooh Blood and Honey.

[Christine]

No, thank you. That's insane. What is wrong with people? Why would you do something like that?

[Em]

They're trying to create, like, I guess a lot of.

[Christine]

Oh. Oh, what the.

[Em]

Yeah, it's really, actually shockingly grotesque.

[Christine]

I hate this. 3% on rotten tomatoes.

[Em]

Yeah, that's right. But basically, he's. He's vengeful because Christopher Robin left them in the Hundred Acre Wood and now he's. He attacks all humans.

[Christine]

People also ask, how is Winnie the Pooh Blood and Honey legal?

[Em]

Actually, I do know the reason. I don't know the right words, but I guess, like, the. After so many years, like, yeah, it's public domain now.

[Christine]

Like, happy birthday.

[Em]

Well, so now this company there. You know how there's like, the Marvel Universe, blah, blah, they're coming out with all the things that.

[Christine]

That's.

[Em]

So all the things that are now public domain, they're trying to put into this universe. So right now, because who was the first one they're calling the Pooniverse.

[Christine]

You know what? I've had about enough of these people. Who is.

[Em]

There's gonna be, like, Peter Pan, and all these people are gonna, like, all come together as, like, an ensemble Avengers movie one day and just, like, kill.

[Christine]

I'll be honest, I'm, like, really not happy about this Winnie the Pooh thing. I'm actually, like, very upset about it. Because Winnie the Pooh is. You know what I'm saying? And I'm now mad about it.

[Em]

Okay, but here's the thing that will really set you off. If they were to write a Pooh horror movie, wouldn't you think? Because it's like. It's like Pooh and his gang of friends in the 100 acre wood, would you not expect Tigger to be there?

[Christine]

I was gonna say, well, Tigger would have to use his springtail.

[Em]

And guess what?

[Christine]

He's not in it at all.

[Em]

At all.

[Christine]

Do you know why? Probably because Tigger's not in the public domain yet.

[Em]

Well, maybe that's true. But then he makes an appearance in the second one.

[Christine]

Oh, I see.

[Em]

But, like. Okay, but here's the thing. So it was basically just. It was just Poo and Piglet. The first time they. They say in the description, they say, the people that you are going to see murdering everybody is Pooh, Piglet, Owl, Rabbit. And then an Eeyore makes, like, a guest appearance. Here's the thing. No fucking sign of Eeyore. No fucking sign of Rabbit. And either movie, no fucking sign.

[Christine]

Rabbit's the angriest one.

[Em]

That's what I'm saying. Like, he has a lot of. He's a lot.

[Christine]

You know, he's just boiling under the surface. You know, he's about to snap.

[Em]

But literally, like, we saw the description. And then throughout the whole movie, the whole first movie, I was like, where the is Rabbit? Where the is Owl? Like, where is everybody? And, like, why weren't Kanga and Root, like a mother daughter? A mother son team? Are you kidding me? That would be really interesting.

[Christine]

Made for.

[Em]

Nope, Nothing. It was only Pooh and Piglet. And then the second movie, they finally introduced Tigger, who only gets, like, three scenes. And Owl gets more scenes than Pooh. And he doesn't look like it. Like, he looks like Freddy Krueger. Like, he doesn't even look like an owl.

[Christine]

I'm mad about this. I'm actually really upset. You know what?

[Em]

At one point. What?

[Christine]

Nosferatu.

[Em]

Oh, me too.

[Christine]

You did?

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

I loved it. You didn't like it?

[Em]

No, but I also. I don't know. I'm. I was not tuned into anything Nosferatu beforehand. So if I'm supposed to, like, love it for what it was, I don't know what it Was.

[Christine]

I don't either. But we mentioned Nosferatu to my dad because, like, you know, it's from the 1920s. And he's like, oh, yes, I know that guy. And we were like, you know that guy?

[Em]

Are you him? He kind of looks like Ghost Fraud.

[Christine]

Yeah, he does a little bit. To be fair. He also said that he knows. He knows the Grinch. And we were like, okay, I don't. You've really lost it, I think. But so interesting. Then we're watching the movie, and every time this motherfucking monster is, like, doing something grotesque, I just, like, kept turning my brother and going, I can't believe dad knows this guy. And then, of course, we started laughing, and then it just kind of probably ruined it for everyone else. But it was. I had a good watch. It was definitely, like, a very gothic romance horror type thing. Definitely not, like, as it wasn't.

[Em]

Who Blood and Honey.

[Christine]

I mean. No. And I'm so sorry that, like, it didn't live up to that for you, but I'm glad you're enjoying yourself at home.

[Em]

I was actually. I was also so disappointed. I'm not that I thought it was gonna be a, like, Oscar winner, but I was just like, where the hell's Tigger? Like, what's going on? And then when he showed up, all he did every single line Tigger had, every single line. He ends it with calling someone a tigger. Like, they're at a rave now that he literally. His first line. His first line. He. They're at a rave. And then he says, come here, you fluorescent. And then he just kills someone. I was like, this.

[Christine]

What in the.

[Em]

This is not the 100 acre.

[Christine]

I'm actually not happy about that one bit.

[Em]

It's really weird.

[Christine]

I'm very mad about it, actually. And I'm not. I'm not pleased how we got here.

[Em]

I just don't know.

[Christine]

Blood and honey. Get out of here.

[Em]

Get. Anyway, I'm excited for the. For when the ensemble cast, the entire Disney cast comes together.

[Christine]

I'm deeply not happy about it.

[Em]

I'm trying to see where that. Like, where I could have gotten that from.

[Christine]

Oh, that content that you just said about. You said horror movies. Speaking of horror movies.

[Em]

Whatever. Something about the vacuum. We hear. They hear kids crying during.

[Christine]

Oh, you said it should be in a horror movie to do white noise, and I said it. Pretty sure it is. Yeah.

[Em]

Yes. Okay. Did everyone enjoy that tangent? Great.

[Christine]

No. Oh, sorry.

[Em]

People also see black mists. They see apparitions, apparently. Playing the music down. Playing music downstairs. Triggers really eerie energy. They think that's connected to the record player.

[Christine]

Ooh. That goes with the sound again. Like the vacuum, the music. Like, you start hearing stuff. I don't know.

[Em]

That's interesting. That's a good point. They also see a soldier sitting in a wheelchair where, like, the clinic used to be. People have seen a World War II soldier.

[Christine]

And seeing a soldier, like an old timey soldier would scare me so badly because just after watching all those, like, war movies in. In middle school and stuff where you had to see all the reenactments, and it's like, if I saw a soldier in front of me, like, from an old timey period with a weapon, I would be so terrified. Especially because out of me, if I.

[Em]

Saw them, I would assume, like, oh, I'm witnessing a moment of war. Now I've like, yeah.

[Christine]

Like, if they're holding a bayonet, like, yeah.

[Em]

And they're coming at you.

[Christine]

Right.

[Em]

Well, apparently there's this World War II soldier that people have seen after, like, his diary got donated there.

[Christine]

That's interesting. He's attached to his diary.

[Em]

He was a poet. He see, he's. He's a bad boy with a. With a good heart.

[Christine]

With a heart of gold.

[Em]

He's got an artsy side, you know.

[Christine]

I'm already falling for him.

[Em]

That's because you fear him and love him at the same time. That's your favorite. That's your favorite.

[Christine]

Blood and honey, baby.

[Em]

So on one tour, someone's ponytail lifted itself. Yuck. Like someone was picking it up. Ew.

[Christine]

They're like, what the hell is this?

[Em]

Take this thing out. On another tour, a visitor was disappointed she hadn't heard anything. And then right behind her, there was this really loud whistle. Everyone heard.

[Christine]

Yuck.

[Em]

One person heard the. Apparently Tigger was there because one person heard the bathroom doorknob jiggling. And at the same time, they got an EVP of someone saying the doorknob won't open. Come here, you fluorescent.

[Christine]

I'm stuck in the bathroom. Fluorescent is insane. They need to go to jail, these people. I don't care. They're going to prison.

[Em]

So that staircase that was outside with all the iguanas on it eventually got moved inside during the rent renovations, which, thank God. And there are lots of noises, lots of activity on those stairs. Some people even see a shadow person on the stairs. The employee, Autumn, being like, I'm not.

[Christine]

Paying taxes on this. Okay?

[Em]

Yeah. He's like, I'm not. In case the H. H. R Block guy comes over.

[Christine]

They were Outside, this was not me.

[Em]

So Autumn, the other employee I mentioned, this is her story of seeing a shadow person on that staircase. This is a quote from her. She said I had walked to the front door to make sure it was locked. And I had my cell phone light on because we had already shut everything. We'd already shut everything down. So she's walking around with her only her cell phone light on right out of a horror movie. And when I got to the foyer, I shined my light towards the door and he was standing between myself and.

[Christine]

The door like, no, Immediately, no.

[Em]

I turned around and go back to the gift shop.

[Christine]

Of course, back to the gift shop I go. That is also my mo.

[Em]

She needed an flt.

[Christine]

She deserved it.

[Em]

I got one of my co workers and we both returned to the front door and now he was on the stairs. They both saw him.

[Christine]

So he's still there.

[Em]

That's not only are two people now seeing him, but he stayed. It's not like.

[Christine]

And he moved. Oh, no, he moved.

[Em]

And he's like, he didn't blink away. Like, he's still there there. Then she says the minute she saw him and I saw him at the same time, she said, let's get out of here. And as we were heading back towards the door, she turned around and saw that he was now standing in front of the stairs at this point. So he's still moving.

[Christine]

And now he came close, back closer, right?

[Em]

Yeah. So it's like.

[Christine]

So he was like up the stairs and then he came back. No, no, no, no, no, no.

[Em]

So I've never heard of an apparition, like staying consistently there for three different times. You're looking at it.

[Christine]

Agreed. Especially like moving to different spots. It's not like you close your eyes, looked, he's still there. It's like he's moving towards you. And also it's not just residual, like he walked up the stairs and vanished. It's like he walked up the stairs, then you did something and he turned around like, absolutely.

[Em]

He's really patrolling the steps.

[Christine]

Yeah, I don't love that.

[Em]

Okay, now I have broken. I'm so sorry. I know this is long. I really. I was trying to give you a short one, but now I'm just gonna go in chunks so it. This is easier to digest.

[Christine]

So I can't wait.

[Em]

We're now going to talk about the ghost kids here. So the ghost kids activity has been around since at least 1960, when they were first renovating the house. This is 20 years before it became a museum. And Even just during those renovations, people were hearing a little girl saying mama. And they think that was maybe Jessie May looking for her mom because she was three and her mom died, you know.

[Christine]

Well, didn't her mom die during childbirth?

[Em]

Yeah, but she, like I'm saying, like she was three and still looking for her mom who had died.

[Christine]

So she didn't have a mom. Basically, yeah.

[Em]

People also constantly hear a child crying. Other times they hear a child laughing. Very frequently people hear kids running around upstairs. One time, Bonnie brought her kid to work with her and while they were closing, she heard her daughter walking around upstairs and a second pair of footsteps following her.

[Christine]

That's nightmare. I'd say both of you stay here. Bye.

[Em]

Yeah, well, then I got with me. Then her daughter came running down because she felt. She said something grabbed her leg. So it's almost like the footsteps were chasing her to like. No. Grab her.

[Christine]

I thought it was like, oh, she was just upstairs playing with another kid. But like, that's way scarier.

[Em]

Yeah, no, she was just walking around following her. Which is interesting that the someone downstairs could hear the footsteps, but not the person that was walking right next to them.

[Christine]

Oh, that's interesting.

[Em]

Some of the donations that have been brought here have been antique dolls which the children go seem to gravitate towards. And some think that the dolls now belong to Jessie May. Sometimes they think it's to. It's another ghost has like kind of taken ownership of them because people have seen a six year old girl sitting next to the doll's cradle.

[Christine]

Well, those girl. Those other girls live there, right? Like two girls.

[Em]

Oh, that's true. Yeah. So it could have been one of them.

[Christine]

And they could be the ones saying mommy. Because if they had like.

[Em]

Oh, yeah.

[Christine]

Because if they grew up with their mom involved. Yeah.

[Em]

Oh, there was also a black mist that hovered over one of the dolls when it first got there.

[Christine]

Oh, gosh.

[Em]

Which is either like, okay, the doll had an attachment or something at the building. Really liked this new doll.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

The fact that it's a black mist is a little weird. Like.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Feels very eeyore. Like a dark cloud.

[Em]

There are dolls on display kind of throughout. There's like cribs and cradles, but I.

[Christine]

Mean, that's already bad. Like you and I have been places with dolls at night and it's like it just. Even if the nothing else is happening, it's just bad vibes for me.

[Em]

It's literally several eyes, like glassy eyes.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

Someone came to appraise one of the dolls and when he was looking at her, appraising her. That's great and all, but when he went to put her back, he put her in the bed instead of in its crib and, like, in its rightful spot, dumbass. He left the room for a second, and when he came back, the entire crib was dismantled and scattered on the floor.

[Christine]

What? What could that even mean?

[Em]

In my mind, it's like, well, if my dolly can't be here, then we might as well not have a cradle. That's what it felt like to me. Like, something like that is so freaky.

[Christine]

Because that means, like, in the moments he was gone, it disassembled silently. Or. Or it just, like, snap of a finger, quantumly dismantled.

[Em]

It's always that question for us. How did it happen?

[Christine]

Yeah, Quantum IKEA construction.

[Em]

Anyway, that's just about terrifying to me. People have also asked to touch the dolls or the crib, and a spirit box will tell them, no, get out. Get away from my dolls.

[Christine]

The crib will explode into a million pieces.

[Em]

Explode. All of a sudden, you'll hear a fluorescent over the spirit box from the bathroom. Some say that they've also seen, like, an infant crawling on the floor by the cradle. And so maybe that's Jessie May. There's a ball in Jessie Mae's room that they use during investigations that has been said to move by itself. There are toys that are found in different positions. Sometimes they're found in completely different rooms. The teacups downstairs will move themselves from the table.

[Christine]

Tea party.

[Em]

I know. Well, they'll move from the. From the cabinet by themselves to the table.

[Christine]

So that's so cute.

[Em]

And some, I guess they've hosted, like, actual tea parties here. And when they set out a certain amount, they'll always find one extra has been put on the table.

[Christine]

About me, because, like, girl, I want.

[Em]

To drink tea, too.

[Christine]

A.

[Em]

During one tour, one guy got his belt loop pulled on and they asked the spirit box if that was Jesse. And instead they got the word Frank or they got the phrase Franklin, please don't tell. And so they think that might be the sun because it was Frank's son. So. Oh, maybe we don't know the name of the sun now.

[Christine]

We don't know the name.

[Em]

We think it might be Franklin just because we heard Franklin. And then, like, a little kid, like.

[Christine]

Please don't tell, when did that neck boy die? Six.

[Em]

At five weeks.

[Christine]

Oh, five weeks.

[Em]

Yeah. But then it could also be any other kid. Who knows? Or it could be Frank being weird, you know?

[Christine]

I mean, yeah, maybe it Was Frank. Was his full name Franklin?

[Em]

I don't know.

[Christine]

Could be.

[Em]

Okay, so that's it for the ghost. Now we're gonna talk about Marina, the one who married both of the men and had the kids. Okay, so. Oh, this is where I also have to send you photos. Ooh.

[Christine]

Okay. I lit a candle in here, and it's like I just lit my. My usual pumpkin one from Target that I always have in the fall, and there's something, like, you know how a smell just makes things, like, feel completely different?

[Em]

Oh, yeah.

[Christine]

It feels, like, so nice and cozy in here because it's like that pumpkin candle, and I feel like I've just been doing, like, Christmassy candles, and all of a sudden I'm like, oh, it's so nice. And, like, autumnal.

[Em]

Autumnal.

[Christine]

Even though I'm snowed into my home in January.

[Em]

Okay, so this is Marina.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Em]

Sorry.

[Christine]

Are you sending to the group or to the.

[Em]

I. I'll move. I haven't sent it yet.

[Christine]

Oh.

[Em]

So Marina is seen often, or. We think this is Marina. There is a woman that is seen a lot in a dress with her hair up. At this point, we think it's Marina. She's been seen quite a few times. And one time, a new volunteer was working, and she was sitting next to some of the quilts that were hanging in the kitchen. I think this woman, who seemingly was part of the tour, she walks up in front of everyone and smiles, points at the quilts and goes, this one's mine. And then she faded away in front of everybody.

[Christine]

No.

[Em]

On one tour, a guest said he actually used to be a. Like, used to live in the house as a kid. So he kind of also did the memory lane thing. I just said, yeah. But he went on. He went on a tour of the house and said, by the way, I used to live here.

[Christine]

That's pretty cool.

[Em]

When he lived there, the house was for rent. A hundred dollars a month.

[Christine]

Wow.

[Em]

Then he said when he was a kid there, he was bouncing a ball in the house one time, and his mom got annoyed and told him to put it away. So he goes up to his room. He opens the door. This woman, maybe Marina, is standing there, sticks her hand out and tells her to give him the ball or to give her the ball. He gives it to her and leaves. And outside of his room, through the door, he can now hear someone else bouncing the ball in his room.

[Christine]

What the. Do you think it's one of the kids? Like, she gave it to her kids or like.

[Em]

Or maybe she, like, bounced it once.

[Christine]

I don't know.

[Em]

But anyway, so here are two shadow figures of Marina.

[Christine]

Dude. As a. To. To grow up and then go back to that house and know that you saw the apparition of the. Of that woman in your own bedroom.

[Em]

I know it must be like.

[Christine]

And anytime I turned a corner, I'd be like expecting to see her again if I came back.

[Em]

So these are two shadow figures of Marina I just sent you.

[Christine]

Did you send to the group?

[Em]

I. I will. I just send them to you for now.

[Christine]

Okay. Oh, my God.

[Em]

So the first two pictures I just. I sent you are shadow figures.

[Christine]

Holy crap. Why?

[Em]

She has a.

[Christine]

An ample bosom, I should say. I. That's the first thing.

[Em]

That's how she got two men, I guess. But then these. But then the next two pictures I sent you, one is just a. A cleaver version, but it's. And that's what they. That was the woman who pointed at the quilts and said, those are mine, and then faded away.

[Christine]

That is absolutely nutty.

[Em]

Yeah, that's like definitely a woman.

[Christine]

That is. I mean, no doubt, like just standing full. But then the one where it's just a shadow figure of her in the kitchen, like it's the same kind of thing. Like, she's totally right walking around in that corner. Probably like, I wonder what that doorway was. A pantry maybe?

[Em]

Maybe. Yeah.

[Christine]

Wow.

[Em]

Maybe that was the entrance to the original stairs.

[Christine]

Oh, could be.

[Em]

Maybe that's just where she would go and cry because she was too trashy.

[Christine]

It does look like she's just staring into a corner. So it could very well just be her. Like today, Leon and I were playing and I got to a point where I was like, mommy needs to go to the room and count other room and count to 10. And. And she is like, okay, bye. And I was like, what? So maybe that's what she was doing.

[Em]

Okay. So that's it for Marina, for Frank.

[Christine]

People are great pictures, by the way.

[Em]

Right.

[Christine]

If you go on go to our Instagram because those are like pretty kick ass. Or are you too bad? Guess. I don't know.

[Em]

But.

[Christine]

Wow.

[Em]

There's also. It's not as good, but there's a full bite operation picture. There's two, I think of Frank throughout the years. He was actually the first picture of him as a full bite apparition was during that first investigation that they ever did.

[Christine]

Oh.

[Em]

And like the very first ghost hunt that ever came, he just showed up.

[Christine]

And he probably after that was like, I'm not making that mistake again. Yeah, I Know, like started hiding.

[Em]

Well, so they saw him on the second floor balcony. People have since seen him on the second floor balcony. And now because of this, they think that because their daughter Jesse May, when she died, they don't know how she died. They think maybe she like fell off the porch or something because that's, that's where you always see him. It's a total guess. Dr. Stringer, the one who had the clinic, he's not very active, but one time the employee, Bonnie, she tried to vacuum the doctor's office and she heard him shout, hey. And then infernal contraption. Isn't that crazy?

[Christine]

What the fuck? Infernal contraption is such a good phrase for a vacuum cleaner. Like, that's what I call it too.

[Em]

Which, like. And it makes sense because he wouldn't have known what it is. And he'd be like, what the hell is this?

[Christine]

And he's probably sick of it because I probably have to vacuum like every day.

[Em]

Yeah. He's also seen on the stairs a lot in a black coat. Sometimes he looks shocked, like he's seeing a patient in rough shape. So he's like hurrying to be a doctor.

[Christine]

Oh.

[Em]

Sometimes people also see a ghost that's associated with him. Basically. We don't know if this was his patient or if this was a friend of his, but in 1866, someone was walking up to the building to see Dr. Stringer and he. I'm not kidding, this sounds like a widely coyote situation. He was shot by a horse drawn carriage drive by.

[Christine]

Come on.

[Em]

And now the ghost of that guy is often seen next to Dr. Stringer on the porch.

[Christine]

Yeah. Because he's probably like, wait, what the hell just happened?

[Em]

I'm sure. I mean, honestly, if I saw a horse drawn carriage drive by, I'd go, did I just see a horse drawn carriage drive by? What the.

[Christine]

Like, no wonder your spirit sticks around. Like, what did am I just happen?

[Em]

So anyway, that guy gets seen quite a lot. I don't know what I would. It's like, oh, I just saw someone shoot you and now ride off on their horse at like 10 miles an hour. Yeah.

[Christine]

What? Clomping around. Clomping along then.

[Em]

Okay, I've got two more for you. I'm so sorry this so long.

[Christine]

Please know I love it.

[Em]

There is a ghost named James. We like James a lot. He is a World War I soldier who was, I guess, a guest here at some point. And he is said to have died by suicide in the attic after he found out that the love of his life Was married to someone else. And this story is kind of assumed by the staff. They found, like, a vague obituary about a guy named James that this happened to. And they are pretty sure it happened in this building. They don't know. But they do know that there was a regular spirit around here that kind of matched the description they picked up on. They ended up. They just call him James, and he seems to be fine with it. But their guess is that this is the James story.

[Christine]

I see.

[Em]

He apparently gravitates towards women. He's very kind to women. Apparently, women, when they feel weird in the building, they will ask James to protect them. Well, that's nice. While they're there, people have seen them standing at the foot of their bed. Yikes. Doesn't feel very safe to me. People have gotten an EVP of a man saying a woman's name, and they think that that's James saying his. The love of his life's name.

[Christine]

Oh.

[Em]

While he. When they first discovered James, he was constantly throwing things off of the walls, Especially this Uncle SAM World War I poster. And that was interesting. It was always. Whenever Bonnie would come into the house, anytime she would, like, start her day.

[Christine]

She'S just trying to vacuum.

[Em]

She was just like, I'm just trying to open the door to get in. And all of a sudden, preserve damn building.

[Christine]

Uncle Sam's on the floor again.

[Em]

And what's really creepy about that poster is, doesn't it say, like, I want you? Like that famous Uncle Sam poster, I want you?

[Christine]

Yes.

[Em]

I'd be terrified if that's the only post that's constantly flying off the wall when I walk in and it says, I want you.

[Christine]

Yeah, I think it's I want you. Right? I want you. Yeah, I want you For US Army. Yeah.

[Em]

Yeah. No, thank you.

[Christine]

No, thanks.

[Em]

So despite it saying I want you, the way that she pieced it together was like, oh, maybe this ghost is attached to World War I. So, yeah, for a while, he was constantly throwing things. And eventually he threw the poster so hard off the wall that the glass shattered. And then Bonnie yelled at him. And through enough spirit box sessions over the years, they realized that James just wanted acknowledgment from her when she came into work every day. So now every time Bonnie comes in, she says, hi, James. And then she. And then she feels something pet her on the head like a. Like a hello.

[Christine]

And then he's like, hello, friend. Yeah, I won't throw a glass at you this time.

[Em]

And ever since then, he's stopped throwing things. They. They Just say hi to each other every morning and that's it.

[Christine]

That's actually kind of lovely.

[Em]

I. I'm totally down with a ghost where the worst he does is pet my head. Hello.

[Christine]

And just say greetings.

[Em]

Yeah, yeah. Okay. The last ghost I have for you, his name is Gary and he is also known as Mr. Nasty. What?

[Christine]

No. If this is another Winnie the Pooh, like cinematic universe thing, I don't want to be part of it.

[Em]

I will say I watched one clip of something. I won't even say what it is, but there was a woman who decided that she wanted to investigate here. She was giving female Zach Bagans energy.

[Christine]

Good, that must go well.

[Em]

First thing in her 45 minute movie that I had to watch was she said, I want to know how nasty Mr. Nasty gets.

[Christine]

Oh, good for you. Okay.

[Em]

I want you to know the immediate response for me, I just want went.

[Christine]

You'Re like, we're in for a long ride.

[Em]

I guess I'm about to lose the next 40 minutes of my life. So anyway, so the. He lives in the attic and he is known as Mr. Nassi, by the way, because of his naughty language. He apparently says some. He. I think he, He. Him and Tigger are friends. You know what I'm saying?

[Christine]

Naughty language.

[Em]

Yeah. So he lives in the attic. We think the attic maybe was once like the enslaved people's court. Yeah, yeah, yeah, naturally, sure. But one can guess. It's up on the fourth floor and it's the most active room in the house. It belongs pretty much alone to Gary slash Mr. Nasty. I don't know why we picked the name Gary. I don't know any information on that. But basically this entity showed up like 15 years ago when there was a donation to the building about this like old actors vaudeville trunk from 1885. And I hate this immediately.

[Christine]

It was, I hate this, like, this like villainy, this villainous, scary character. And now he also has like a costume and a cape or something.

[Em]

Actually, that's a good point.

[Christine]

Yeah, it like makes it so much more sinister. Like clown, like almost, you know.

[Em]

Oh, yeah.

[Christine]

Like vaudeville's supposed to be like showy, flashy. Now this Mr. Creep. What's his name?

[Em]

Mr. Nasty.

[Christine]

Nasty. It get. It's literally so much worse. Mr. Nasty is the worst word.

[Em]

Can I do a sidebar for you and tell you something just equally horrifying?

[Christine]

If you must.

[Em]

I have a friend who I will text you the name of that, you know, And I was hanging out with her while I'm in town and I was hanging out with her mom by myself for a little bit. I'm. I just grew up with everybody. So I also popped in to say hi to her mom. Her mom and I start talking about ghosts. The way that she was completely unfamiliar about our relationship with Zach Bagans was very clear because all she told me for the next, like, 20 minutes was how in love she is with Zach Baggins. And she was like, she was giving Mr. Nasty vibes, if you know what I'm saying. She was like. She was like, the way I would let Zach Bag is blah, blah, blah. And I was like, oh, yeah. I don't know how to explain how.

[Christine]

This is your friend's mom, right? Not your mom?

[Em]

Yes. Okay, got it.

[Christine]

God, that feels like a friend's mom. Exactly. Type. It's a perfect demographic. That's like, who. That's who took comments weird on his Instagram posts. Like, remember when he would take pictures with, like, what's her name from. From Bunnies? Holly Madison.

[Em]

Oh, yeah.

[Christine]

And people would be like, get her out of here. She doesn't love you like I would. And it's like, okay, you like you.

[Em]

50 year old lady if you scroll far enough. My friend's mom is certainly in the. In the comments, but the way she was talking about it, I was like, you obvious have no awareness of my opinion.

[Christine]

It's fine.

[Em]

Anyway, I only remember that because I was just thinking when I saw that girl in that stupid show I watched last night, go, I want to know how nasty he gets. I was like, okay, yeah, we get.

[Christine]

It, we get it. Insert name. Yeah.

[Em]

So anyway, sorry, that was a bit of a tangent, but I also. I needed to tell you. Okay, so Mr. Nasty, he. Yes, he has the actor's trunk from 1885. That's when the energy kind of came in. But also kind of like James. It's said that he died by suicide after losing the love of his life, but that was more like he found out his wife was cheating on him thing. Oh, and now he just hates women.

[Christine]

Good.

[Em]

Of course. So a lot of women who go into the attic are terrified of the attic. Sometimes they become immediately sick. They have gotten grabbed, pinched, scratched, smacked in the face.

[Christine]

Oh, my God.

[Em]

He just does not like women. And a lot of times people will just sense it from outside the attic. They just go, I'm not going.

[Christine]

No. Oh, I hate that.

[Em]

Even staff members will. They go in, like, together. No one wants to go.

[Christine]

Do you wonder, do you think. Because my first thought is, do you think he wants you to go in there? So he can, like, pinch you or whatever. Or do you think he's, like, actively, like, trying to push you away if you're a woman? Or do you think, like, women just are, like, bad vibes, and he's like, no, come on in. I don't know.

[Em]

Weird question, I guess I would think he, like, just desperately doesn't want them.

[Christine]

He just is, like, trying to push you, like, like, get out, I would.

[Em]

Imagine, like, if you're just gonna constantly hurt people, you can't expect them to want to hang out with you.

[Christine]

Right?

[Em]

You know?

[Christine]

Yeah. Yeah. I just don't know if he loves hurting, like, if he wants. Oh, does he like hurting people? Yeah, I would think, like, come on in so I can slap you.

[Em]

I would think maybe he just. Maybe he can't hide it. But I would. If I were him, I would try to be, like, really charming and lure people in.

[Christine]

SW I guess so. Yeah, that's true. The bad vibes are probably what he's intending to give off.

[Em]

Yeah, that's.

[Christine]

That's fair.

[Em]

Well, people in the attic have also felt the entire room shake by itself. There's an obvious heavy, dark energy there. People early on saw a black mass, like, swirling around the trunk.

[Christine]

You already got a doll. Black mass. You don't get a trunk, too. Come on, share with your friends.

[Em]

When he does come downstairs because he stays in the attic, but in moments where he has come downstairs, people notice because they feel like something in their face and something being really handsy and grabby at them.

[Christine]

Like, get. Go back to your room.

[Em]

You know?

[Christine]

Exactly.

[Em]

You have a whole floor to yourself.

[Christine]

You literally took over half the building.

[Em]

Some staffs, like, they try to play it off like, oh, he's just moody and a prankster. But then others are, like, panic stricken at the thought of being.

[Christine]

When people say, like, oh, so and so is a prankster, I'm always like, red flag. Explain what that means because that usually I don't want to be part of that, you know?

[Em]

Yeah, like, prankster. Like. Like, how.

[Christine]

Like, speak on that. Like, are we talking whoopee cushion max? That's a max level pranking, or are.

[Em]

We talking, like, is all my furniture upside down?

[Christine]

I'm a. I'm a sexual harasser. You know, Which. Which one is it?

[Em]

So this spirit has gotten a lot calmer than it used to be because I guess the staff have now started writing, like, positive messages in the trunk and are trying to, like, infuse it with good energy, basically.

[Christine]

Oh, gosh. I'm sure he loves that.

[Em]

But yeah, but it also feels like, one, you're giving it attention. Two, you're giving him gifts, so you're encouraging the behavior. That's what it feels me. But I guess it's working, so whatever.

[Christine]

I mean, maybe they're just appeasing him, like. Okay, now stay with your damn trunk.

[Em]

Yeah, well, Bonnie, the one who is, like, all about the ghosts here, she has even said that her and Mr. Nassi absolutely, to this day, do not get along. She only goes up there once a month to clean. And she literally said that the two of them have declared. Have declared a truce with each other, that they just don't go in each other's spaces. Wow.

[Christine]

With that infernal machine.

[Em]

Yeah. So they've also said that the trunk, when it went into the attic, that's when the attic started having a lot of problems. But originally it was in different rooms and activity was heavier there. So they know that the trunk is what the attachment is, what the item is.

[Christine]

Do you know that I literally, last night, almost bought a trunk from an estate sale? And it was so beautiful. And then my gut just said, please don't, don't. So instead, I bought a bunch of old Victorian photographs.

[Em]

Good for you.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

Yeah, See, you just gotta listen to your gut.

[Christine]

Now, I have a briefcase of Victorian pictures, so I think that's probably a better bet than a trunk.

[Em]

Beautiful.

[Christine]

Less haunted, I'm sure.

[Em]

Well, so the. The trunk, knowing that that's what the attachment is, people have even moved the trunk around to see if the spirit will follow it, and it does, which is super creepy. The, like, meters will go off.

[Christine]

I do like that it's attached, though, so you can kind of like, put.

[Em]

It in the dumpster, put it out.

[Christine]

So you have it in the dirt. Put it in the swamp. I don't know.

[Em]

Some staff say that there's actually something even scarier up in the attic than Mr. Nasty, but they don't know what it is. That terrifies me.

[Christine]

Well, that's bad news.

[Em]

They said that, like. Oh, yeah. Well, you know, Mr. Nasty and I, like, we have an understanding and we don't really like each other, but I'm not scared of him. And there's something else up there that I am actually truly scared of that's really upsetting. Well, the final thing I have for you, which I know that you'll love, is that there are. I looked everywhere, because I saw in all these articles, like, oh, it's been on an episode of Ghost Hunters. It's been on an episode of a show Called Haunted Tours. There were a few documents, documentaries made about this house. None of them I can find online. None of them.

[Christine]

What?

[Em]

And like, literally, like, Ghost Hunters? Like, that's a pretty easy to find show. Couldn't find it. But only one show was I able to find, and that is, I think, your favorite, Kindred Spirits starring Chip Coffee.

[Christine]

I thought we were going ghost adventures, and I prepared my face as such. So let me take a moment.

[Em]

Chip Coffee. Yes.

[Christine]

I love that show. And honestly, I drank out of my. My coffee mug the other day. My Chip Coffee mug that a listener sent in sent to me. And it just got me all giddy again about how much I just love this. This Scarfed fellow.

[Em]

You know, he. Can you get. Can you on your Etsy make a scarf? And it just says bescarfed all over.

[Christine]

Scarfed or bishawed? I don't know what you.

[Em]

You can you do a picture within a picture within a picture of, like, a scarf with Chip Coffee on it. Wearing a scarf with Chip Coffee on it with a scarf with Chip Coffee.

[Christine]

Done and done.

[Em]

Now that is something else. I'll tell you.

[Christine]

Done and done.

[Em]

Okay. So I looked everywhere for other episodes. Kindred Spirits was the one that was most, like, heavily advertised.

[Christine]

I guess that means I've probably watched it because I have watched every episode of that show.

[Em]

Oh.

[Christine]

But I've watched them all. I used to watch them in a drunken wine haze. So I don't know that I recall the details, but.

[Em]

Well, for those who don't know, this was, like, one of my first times watching Kindred Spirits. But it starts like Amy and Adam. Right?

[Christine]

So good. Yeah.

[Em]

And then every now and then, it seems like Chip Coffee comes in.

[Christine]

He's not like, yeah, he's like, they're on call. Like, he's like, they're on call where they're like, oh, we gotta bring in an extra Chip Coffee in his scarf. Which makes it so much better because he's just like, I'm here. And it's like, oh, I didn't know Chip was coming today. You know, it's just so exciting.

[Em]

Well, before the investigation, Autumn is on the show. The. The employee there, she's on the show. She's immediately, like, she's going through it. Something is freaking her out. Upstairs, we find out that it's the attic, Mr. Nasty Guy. But she's, like, fully panicked. She doesn't even really want to be there. So they do an Estes Method, and they both are getting touched and pinched the entire time during the Estes Method. But in the Estes method, through the spirit box, they get. Get Adam telling them, hey, stop pinching Amy. And they get, no so bad. Cut her.

[Christine]

Oh, God.

[Em]

Then they ask what the ghost's name is. The spirit box says, leave. When they say, no, the spirit box says, that's up.

[Christine]

Okay, bro.

[Em]

And then. And then they say, people are really uncomfortable about you. And then the spirit box says, fantastic. You. And then. And then.

[Christine]

Fantastic. Let them think what they want.

[Em]

And then both of them get touched and pinched again. So they bring in the big guns. Chip Coffee with his scarf.

[Christine]

Here he comes.

[Em]

And I had never totally interacted with this man before. I get it now.

[Christine]

You get it now.

[Em]

He. He went into every room and he's doing like a. Like kind of like a drive by medium moment.

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Em]

And so he. He goes into a room and he's like, there's something residual here. And then he goes into another room. He goes, this isn't really a very interactive spot. And then he goes into this room and he's like, oh, yeah, there's something here. But, you know, it's not really that big of a deal. And then he gets to the attic and he turns to camera and he goes, hello.

[Christine]

No, it's like. It's, like, so epic. It's. Every time he's on, I'm like, you bring so much light into my life. I don't know how you do it, Chip, but, man, it really does brighten my day.

[Em]

It was also just in the gayest way, like the gayest little voice of. Hello.

[Christine]

Hello. And I think what I love, love about his. His role on that show specifically also is because he was in Psychic Kids, too. But he. He. I think it's. Amy and Adam are so, like, down to earth and, like, very sincere and genuine, and they're great. Like, they're fun and bubbly, but they're, like, very serious about, like, ghost hunting. Like, they're not there to, like, you know, punch the walls. Like, some people, they're just, like, very, like, they take it very seriously and, like, kind of scientifically approach. And then when Chip Coffee, like, kind of comes in flamboyantly, it really just, like, changes the dynamic.

[Em]

I just, like, we need him, but the energy is the formula.

[Christine]

It's just impeccable. Hello?

[Em]

I found her.

[Christine]

Mr. Nasty. Hello?

[Em]

Mr. Nasty.

[Christine]

He would probably name him Mr. Nasty. That seems like something Chip Coffee would come up with.

[Em]

Yeah, well, so they go into the attic and he. This is a quote from him getting a read of the room. He. He Says, whatever's in here is pacing or darting. It's getting irritable, definitely not residual. It's saying, leave us the alone and leave our secrets alone. Get the out. You're getting its attention. He corrects. And then he says, he actually corrects me. His attention.

[Christine]

Pronouns. Chip, thank you, Chip, thank you for normalizing pronouns, Mr. Nasty.

[Em]

And so the. They realize the trunk has an attachment to it, so they move it downstairs. The sensors start freaking out. The sensors turn off when intelligence intelligent. They turn off intelligently when you ask it to. And then they decide that they're going to do another Estes method where Amy says that she feels something menacing next to her, like she wants to run. Oh, and the Estes method, they ask, what do you want us. What do you want to say to us? And then the spirit box says, not telling. When Autumn says, why do you like to scare me? They hear the spirit box say, I'm sorry. And then they ask, why is Autumn the person that triggers you so much? The spirit box says, stop. And when they ask, why are you with this trunk? They hear, hit him. And that's the Kindred Spirits episode. So I tried really hard to give you a short story. It's literally been an hour and a half. Listen, we knew.

[Christine]

We knew this would happen. It's always when we. It's always when we watch a show or a movie about something because we just want to tell the other person the whole thing. It's, like, exciting and fun and, you know, I love my Kindred Spirits.

[Em]

Well, also, you know how paranoid I am when people are, like, you know, making nasty comments about how I'm. I don't try hard enough.

[Christine]

So anyway, making these comments, I will.

[Em]

Say thank you to everybody who said such nice things to me. I ended up getting a bit of a. The floodgates opening in my DMS of people saying nice things to counteract the nasty thing. So I really, I. I read your messages. I really appreciate you guys saying such nice things to me. It was very kind. I was having. Having a bit of a dark moment, like a week ago or whenever that episode came out where I said that I was getting some hateful stuff, which I. I was, but I. It has been counteracted. So thank you.

[Christine]

Oh, good. Yeah. I don't ever open your dms. I know I don't, but I don't think I've seen anything nasty in there. I mean, I think if I saw something that looked nasty, I would open it and read it, but I feel like people have been genuinely Pretty kind, I think.

[Em]

I don't. I. I luckily don't look at Reddit anymore. I thought I was safe, but I guess I'm. Nowhere is totally safe. So anyway, it made me. It made me very happy to see people say nice things, but hopefully the people who don't know if I do my research or not. There you go. There's a big ass story for you.

[Christine]

Maybe one day we'll have. Maybe one day we'll have a snark page on Reddit, but I think we haven't made it quite to that echelon of fame yet. Maybe not that, but maybe someday. Or maybe there is one.

[Em]

Do you need a potty break or anything? Because I know that was long.

[Christine]

Oh, I think I said something rude about Disney. Sorry. I typed in snark and it said I was being snarky about Disney, I think. And I was like, yeah, I probably.

[Em]

Was Winnie the Pooh being a murderer, so.

[Christine]

And I said I hate that because I love Winnie the Boot. So. So, you know, I guess what I'm saying is take everything we say with a grain of salt. Sometimes we just say things and maybe that's not for the best. But sometimes we say things and then forget we say them. And then I say the opposite the week after.

[Em]

Guys, it is the perfect time starting out a new year for fresh starts. So why not kick off the year by giving your skin a little tlc? It your skin itself could be the flt. You know what I'm saying? You could treat your skin to a scientifically proven makeover courtesy of our fabulous sponsor, One Skin.

[Christine]

I'm so excited that they are a sponsor because it's all I've been using lately. Their secret is all in the OSO1 peptide. A special formula whipped up after the founders tested a whopping 900 peptides. This little wonder works to turn off those pesky aging cells that bring lines and wrinkles to the party. Plus, One Skin's concoctions are bursting with skin loving goodies like Andoroba Oil Brew, Bronco and Moringa seed extract. These natural wonders help boost collagen. They calm inflammation, which I always need. I get a lot of inflammation in my face face and shield your skin from the daily grind.

[Em]

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[Christine]

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[Em]

Get 15 off with code drink at One Skin Co. That's 15 off OneSkin Co with code drink. After you purchase, they'll ask you where you heard about this them Please support our show and tell them we sent you.

[Christine]

Invest in the health and longevity of your skin with one skin. Your future self will thank you.

[Em]

It's 2025 now and one of my goals is to save some money because I just bought a house.

[Christine]

Sorry, I didn't mean to laugh.

[Em]

All of a sudden I'm paying double whatever rent I used to pay and I really needed to get it together. I was spending a lot back in the day on Pokemon cards. I love Machotchkes but I really gotta tame it for like a second at least a day so Allison knows that I'm trying to keep it together and luckily we're able to do that with Mint Mobile. It's the easiest way to save this year.

[Christine]

Okay. It really is. So if you're still paying insane amounts of money every month for wireless, switching to Mint Mobile is seriously the easiest way to save this year. As the first company to sell premium wireless service online only, Mint Mobile lets you maximize your savings with plans starting at 15amonth. When you purchase a three month plan and that's just like right as you see it, it's delivered on the nation's largest 5G network. Do not even worry. You use your own phone. With any Mint Mobile plan, you can bring your phone number along with all your existing contacts. Don't even worry about it.

[Em]

To get this new customer offer and your new 3 month unlimited wireless plan for just 15 bucks a month, go to mintmobile.com atwd that's mintmobile.com cut your.

[Christine]

Wireless bill to 15 bucks a month at mintmobile.com $45 upfront payment required equivalent to 15amonth. New customers on first 3 month plan only speed slower above 40 gigabytes on unlimited plan. Additional taxes, fees and restrictions apply. See Mint Mobile for details. This new year, why not let Audible expand your life by listening? Explore over 1 million audiobooks, podcasts and exclusive Audible originals that'll inspire and motivate you.

[Em]

Just open the app and tap into your well being with advice and insight from leading influencers, experts and professionals. Whatever your focus or interest, there's a listened for it on Audible. You'll find titles on better health, including personal fitness, nutrition and relaxation too.

[Christine]

Here are ways to improve your relationships both in your work and personal life, or how to embark on a new career strategy. If you want to overhaul your financial life or hear smart talk about investing for your future, you'll find that too.

[Em]

Ultimately, it's all about starting good habits. Making a positive change is the best resolution you can make for yourself. And Audible can help. There's so much opportunity and more to imagine with you. Listen.

[Christine]

Let Audible help you reach the goals you set for yourself. Start listening today when you sign up for a free 30 day trial at audible.com drink. So I have a story for you today. This is the story of Lee Harvey and Tracy Andrews. And I'm not going to give anything away because there are a few plot twists. So I'm just going to jump right into it. Lee Harvey, he met Tracy Andrews when he was 23 years old and she was 25. The year was 1994 and he was working as a bus driver in Birmingham, which is a city over of over a million people in the west midlands of England. Not to be confused with Birmingham, Alabama. Right where my aunt lives. Really? Birmingham.

[Em]

Aunt Pam?

[Christine]

No, grandma. Grandma Pam lives in western New York. Uncle Wally and Tanta Angelica live in Birmingham, Alabama. Birmingham, Alabama.

[Em]

Gotcha.

[Christine]

And I don't know who lives in Birmingham, but I'm sure someone's aunt lives there. So with that context, Tracy worked as a bartender. Again, she's 25. She's working as a bartender. She has aspirations to become a model. She'd already done some local work modeling for hair salons in the city. I mean, very 80s 90s, like bangs, poofy hair, red lipstick, just the whole nine yards.

[Em]

I'm so excited for my hair to come back. I'm so excited.

[Christine]

I am not because I have just the flattest hair on the planet. But, you know, it's okay.

[Em]

I have the most Jewish voluminous Mufasa main hair. I can't wait for that to just be, just bring it back, baby. Just, just a big.

[Christine]

And make the change you wish to see in the world.

[Em]

Oh, my God.

[Christine]

Stop.

[Em]

Okay, okay.

[Christine]

So Lee, meanwhile, he was described by friends as a family man and he as a bus driver. He liked working a local job that kept him close. He was really close with his parents, his older S as well as his sister's husband and child. In his free time, he was always going out with his friends. They loved going out clubbing. Birmingham apparently has really good nightlife. And Lee's friends all described him as outgoing, tall, fit, gorgeous. He was like just a hunk of a dude. He often, I think he had one earring. And in the 90s, you know, that was all the rage for guys. He often stayed out late drinking and dancing with his friends. And then everyone would go back to Lee's parents. House. Remember he's 23 and then his mother Maureen would make snacks for everybody. And this is like three in the morning. Like they would come home in the middle of the night, she would wake up, make them all snacks and go back to bed and.

[Em]

Sounds like a dream life.

[Christine]

Seriously, what the hell. He was extremely close with Maureen, his mom. They talked about everything, including his sex life, which some people thought was a little strange. But Maureen was very happy that he felt comfortable to confide in her, even though he had a very colorful dating experience. For example.

[Em]

She was nasty.

[Christine]

No. Well, maybe because she wrote in her book that Lee was a good looking lad who'd bedded more women than he'd had hot dinners.

[Em]

Holy. About her son, I guess. I don't know.

[Christine]

When he was 20, Lee and his former girlfriend Anita were surprised by an unpleasant planned pregnancy. But he was very excited to be a dad. So they ended the romantic relationship. But they remained friends and they co parented. And their daughter Danielle, he loved her. He was. She would spend weekends at Lee's parents home with him and the family just loved being together. Maureen loved being a grandma to Danielle. He was never too busy for like tea parties. I don't know if he had to go to the other room to count to 10 like I do, but probably. But he played a lot of like make believe games and just played with her, you know, very like hands on dad. And so when he Met Tracy, she's 25, he's 23. She also had a young daughter close to Danielle's age. And so they kind of bonded over that when they met at a nightclub. And when they met, they were both excited to have like this something so in common. Their daughters were like a year apart. They're both really young and love to love nightlife, but they both have a kid. Like they just felt like it clicked right away. And the girls themselves became close friends. They had sleepover. I mean that's dream life, right? Like you meet a partner and their kid and your kid become best friends and it's like easy peasy. Now your sisters.

[Em]

Truly a dream that kind of happened in my. Well, it worked out very well. I already knew my stepsisters before they became my stepsisters. So it was like, oh, now we're just friends.

[Christine]

Who I knew my Uncle Wally. In fact I called him Uncle Wally before he was ever my Uncle Wally. And then one day he married my aunt and I said, wait a minute, that worked out a little too Uncle. And everyone was went, oh yeah, like that's weird. It's like we manifested it.

[Em]

That works out pretty good.

[Christine]

Yeah. So the girls were really close. They had sleepovers, and they even took them on trips together. Like I said, the Lee and Tracy met in a club because they both were very like nightlife type people. Tracy herself was described as very glamorous. Remember, she had aspirations, big, poofy hair, aspirations of becoming a model. She wore very, like elaborate outfits. She never went anywhere without a full face of makeup. And basically people saw the two of them and said, like, they make a stunning couple. That was kind of the impression they made on people. Even Maureen, Lee's mom, was believed he was mistaking his attraction to Tracy and their attention for deeper feelings. Like, she was like, this is a shallow relationship from the start. Let's just say Maureen wasn't so sure. Apparently Maureen, knowing all of his colorful dating past, said in an interview that she didn't see what was so special about Tracy, which is really gotta hurt.

[Em]

Shots fired.

[Christine]

Yeah. But that Lee was an adult who could choose his own girlfriends. And she was like, you know what? I'll just accept that choice. And Lee insisted that he and Tracy were in love. So his mom said, all right, whatever you say. So it was only six months after they met that Lee proposed to Tracy and moved in with her in her home in Alva Church just outside of Birmingham. They were both excited to settle down, focus on each other, raising their two daughters who had now bonded like sisters. And it felt like a perfect family. But on December 1, 1996, a man stepped outside a house on Cooper's Hill, which is a quiet tree lined road in Alva Church. It was roughly 11pm and he had heard a woman screaming.

[Em]

Oh, God.

[Christine]

He rushed to the sound and found Tracy in the street standing over Lee, who was lying on the pavement. Both of them them were covered in blood, but Lee was dead. Tracy was injured as well. She was in shock. The man brought her inside to wait for the police and paramedics. And when they arrived, Tracy was taken to the hospital by ambulance, where she was treated for cuts on her face and two pretty prominent black eyes. It appeared as though she had been struck in the face multiple times by an attacker. Okay, so once she had been treated and had a chance to use a bathroom, gather her thoughts. Thoughts. Tracy spoke to the police finally and gave them a rundown of what she remembered happening that night. She said she and Lee were headed home from a pub just after 10pm the pub was only 10 minutes from their house along a very familiar path. And the drive should have been as eventful as always. But while Tracy apparently went into the gloved glove compartment for a CD she wanted to play, she started hearing Lee curse, like, under his breath, breath. So she kind of sits up and looks, and she sees he's cussing into the rear view mirror because there's this car apparently, like, tailing them from the pub. And the driver flashed their lights repeatedly and began tailgating them. And when they didn't back off, Lee got pissed off, and he started, you know, brake checking the car by, you know, slamming on the brakes as it was really close to try and get them to rear end him. And the other car started swerving erratically, honking, trying to get around them, but Lee blocked the road. And Tracy is, like, terrified. She's like, please just let them pass. Calm down. Don't get into, like, an altercation. She said. As they sped up a dark, tree lined road in a spot called Cooper's Hill, the car overtook them, swerved in front, and stopped in the middle of the road.

[Em]

Oh.

[Christine]

Lee slammed on his brakes to avoid a collision, and as soon as he stopped, he was out in the road shouting at the other driver, who also came out of his vehicle, which was a dark Ford Sierra. While the men argued, a third man climbed out of the Sierra's passenger seat and started punching Lee, while the other driver just stood back and watched. So Tracy jumps out of the car to intervene, and the passenger apparently shouted at her, calling her a. Punched her in the face. Tracy fell and lost consciousness for a moment and watched in a daze as both men jumped in their truck and drove off. So she reached for Lee. She felt that he was all wet, and she heard him making a sound that she later described as gurgling and realized his throat had been slashed and he was losing enormous, enormous amounts of blood very quickly. In other words, that passenger had not been punching Lee, but had been stabbing him. Tracy later said she went into complete shock, but instinctively used what she had learned in a first aid course to try and stop the bleeding. But Lee had been stabbed 42 times in the head, neck, and back. His arteries were severed. He had already lost way too much blood to survive. She sat just basically cradling him for a moment, trying to comfort him. And at some point, she just started screaming. And by the time help arrived, of course, the attackers were long gone and Lee had passed. So Tracy. Yeah, so Tracy's telling police a story, and she says the only passenger, that only the passenger was involved in the attack. And she described him as an older, overweight man with staring eyes. And, like, staring eyes was something that, like, wasn't made clear in any of the articles. But I watched a. A couple documentaries or, like, docu series or, you know, shorts on YouTube about this, about the story. And when you watch the actual interviews with her, she describes the staring eyes, and it makes more sense. Like, she basically says, like, he had these, like, big eyes that bore right into you. You know what I mean? Like, these, like, really intense gazing eyes. And so when she described staring eyes, that's kind of. She kind of, like, did this with her eyes, which is how I kind of gathered what she meant. Investigators thought it would be impossible for such a dramatic scene to have no witnesses, so they needed to find someone who could just come forward with information. So they started publishing descriptions of the incident, the cars, the attacker, the staring eyes, the details of the route they took that night. And a media storm immediately erupted around the case. They called it the road rage killing. And it was shocking. Like, people were captivated because they had these photos of this beautiful young woman. She has black eyes, she's brutalized, she's traumatized. And people were just totally taken by the story and how horrific it was. Meanwhile, of course, Lee's family is grappling with the nightmare of losing him. Him. So tragically. He's 23 or 24. I mean, he's really young. Tracy stayed with her mom, Irene, who said Tracy didn't sleep for days following the attack. At a press conference shortly after Lee was killed, Tracy held Maureen's hand. So this was Lee's mother. So Tracy's now holding basically her mother in law's hand in front of cameras, pleading for someone to come forward with information on the murderer. She even personally addressed the driver from that night, asking him to turn in the passenger who attacked them. And this struck people as kind of odd. She kept saying, you are not to blame. And I know that about the. About the driver.

[Em]

What does that mean?

[Christine]

Like, she kept saying, you're not the one who hurt him, so you won't be in trouble, but the passenger will be. And he.

[Em]

Like, you weren't, I guess, physically involved, right?

[Christine]

So, like.

[Em]

But also you were still the driving.

[Christine]

Like, you were one who swerved and just, like, watched as someone. Like, was it a guy?

[Em]

Was it just, like. Like just a really bad bout of road rage? Is that.

[Christine]

I mean, that's what people called it. They called it a road raid. The road rage.

[Em]

It just doesn't make. I. I mean, maybe I've just never lived with road rage like that. At least I. It. I feel like there had to be. Are they drunk? I don't know. It just. It feels like something else had to be going on. On. On an empty road. Come on.

[Christine]

Could be. Could be. She said, you are not to blame. And I know that. And people were like, that's odd. So on December 4, a detective went to Irene's home to speak with her daughter, Tracy. But Tracy apparently had finally fallen asleep that morning after days without sleep. So Irene said, come back another time, please. But while the detective spoke to Tracy's family, Irene actually found a note Tracy had written to her daughter apologizing for taking her own life and said she is going to be with Lee now. So, literally, as the detective is talking to Tracy's mom, Tracy's mom finds a note somewhere in the house, in the kitchen, I don't know. That says, sorry for taking my own life. So the detective rushes up to Tracy's bedroom, and she. She is unconscious. She has taken over 200 pills.

[Em]

Holy. I was really hoping that that was, like, a preemptive note she hadn't actually fulfilled yet.

[Christine]

It was like, moments earlier, I presume, or shortly before. Wow. She had taken 200 pills approximately. And according to Irene, Tracy died more than once in the ambulance on the way to the hospital, but thankfully was successfully revived and stabilized against the gods. So days later, investigators on the case shocked Tracy's family and the media when they got to the hospital where Tracy was recovering and arrested her.

[Em]

No.

[Christine]

Yes.

[Em]

She paid for them to do it.

[Christine]

They were forced to wait more than a week, though, because Tracy was in an intensive psychiatric care unit. And then once she had, you know, made it through that process, the police announced that Tracy was being charged with Lee's murder. So the announcement to everybody else seemed completely out of left field. But Tracy's story to the police had basically begun to unravel almost immediately after the murder. Like you said, something sounds fishy. Something sounds off. Basically at the first press conference when she pleaded to the media for witnesses and. And started saying things like, we know you're not in trouble. Just come forward. And they were like, oh, that's strange. Doesn't she want the guy who killed her? Whatever. So people were like, that's odd. But who knows? You know, she's in shock. She's been traumatized. But then during that same press conference, a member of the press asked Tracy questions about the timeline of that night and mentioned Tracy and Lee leaving the pub at 10:10pm But Tracy corrected him and said, no, no, it was 10:10 till 10. So it was 9:50 and the reporter was confused because police had told the press that Lee and Tracy left for home at 10:10pm Based on Tracy's recollection. Okay, so you know, it wasn't unusual for the victim of an attack, especially like someone who had suffered head trauma, to like mix up a timeline. But again, the pub was only 10 minutes from their home and the emergency phone call hadn't come until 11pm p.m. so they were like, well now you're adding 20 more minutes onto this timeline. Basically, instead of from 10:10 to 11 that this event would conspired. Now it's, she's saying it was 20 minutes. Yeah, 20 more minutes. And so that was like a dramatic shift because it created a huge gap that like they couldn't account for. Like if Tracy and Lee left the bar, sped down the road, stopped and were attacked in that 10 minute drive, then what's happening in that hour that's left, you know, between screaming and calling for help? So there was already a significant chunk of unaccounted for time in the original story. But now these extra 20 minutes are starting to raise eyebrows and people are like, well, that's just strange. So as the journals journalist is like asking questions, trying to make sense of this, Tracy starts getting worked up and the detective just ends the question. But that moment when they watched it, Lee's family, they knew. They knew, they were certain suddenly that Tracy had killed Lee. They had suspected it from the beginning.

[Em]

Well also they kind of suspected bad energy from the beginning of the relationship. Even the mom was like, I don't know, Lee, this doesn't make sense.

[Christine]

Yes, exactly. So Maureen, the mom, she, I mean, I understand why she really wanted to believe Tracy because like, how horrible would it be.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

To believe the real story. She really wanted to. And like I said, they were holding hands during the press conference. Like she really wanted to believe her daughter in law. But Lee's father and sister immediately suspected Tracy as soon as they found out that he had been murdered. Because for two years they had witnessed Tracy's and Lee's tumultuous relationship. Lee and Tracy would fight so often and yell so loudly that neighbors basically said they might as well have been out in the yard screaming. They could understand and hear everything they were saying. Maureen insisted that Lee had never hit Tracy, but he did shout at her and throw things around the apartment while they fought. So already bad red flag. Tracy, however, was very often known to become physical. She had often scratched Lee in the face. She had punched him Numerous times, police intervened in their fights more than once. Even removed Lee from the home at one point. And he would usually go to stay with his parents until Tracy called him to sort things out, and then he would move back in with her. So it was like, eventually very toxic abuse cycle of just like this toxic couple that are both abusive toward one another and then just keep getting back together. And his family, there's like, they're like, out of. They have no control. They're just have to let him do what he wants to do. Tracy apparently reportedly once hit Lee with a bottle in the middle of a nightclub. And security had to intervene, of course. And then another time, time security intervened when she basically launched herself at him for talking to a woman who was working behind the bar. And during that altercation, she bit him in the neck so hard that he started bleeding.

[Em]

Oh, my God.

[Christine]

And Lee's parents just felt helpless, like they wanted to protect him from this relationship, but, like, he's an adult and he keeps going back to it, and it's like, you can't force somebody out of a relationship.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

So the family often argued about Lee's relationship while he just continuously assured them things would get better. They'd make it work, they'd work it out how they do counseling, what have you. The last time Maureen saw Lee, he had come over to get some clothes he left behind from the last time he had moved out after an argument with Tracy. Yeah. So he told Maureen, don't worry. I'm just back to get my stuff. And this time it's gonna be good.

[Em]

You know, I'll drop it off next week when I'm back.

[Christine]

See you in a few days. I know. It's just. It's like one of those cycles that you just hate to witness. He told Maureen he loved Tracy, things would be okay. And despite everything she knew about Tracy and the way she treated Lee, Maureen said in an interview that she wanted believe Tracy's story. She wanted Lee to have died in the arms of his comforter, not his killer. Like, she didn't want his last moments to have been at the hands of his love, you know, I mean, that's just terrible. But the evidence just did not line up because a few things. There was a clump of hair in Lee's hand as if he'd ripped it out of her scalp in a fight.

[Em]

Oh, my God. That's really fucking aggressive.

[Christine]

Really brutal. There was another clump of hair stuck to her own jacket in Lee's blood. Blood? Oh, like, plastered on with his blood. Tracy said her clothes had become saturated with Lee's blood while she held him. But a lot of the blood on her clothes had been spattered or splashed as if she was in close range to blood spray as it came off of Lee.

[Em]

Oh, toward her. Huh.

[Christine]

There was a winter hat kind of away, like, 20ft from the car on the side of the road. It was. It was just, like, kind of discarded there. But when detectives looked at it, they noticed black and white cat hair inside the hat that matched a sample collected from Tracy's own cat. And at first, she was saying, that's not my hat. But when they found the cat hair, she said, oh, yeah, that is my hat. And they believed she had tossed it, you know, 20ft away to make it look as though there was another party at the scene who had dropped their hat. But then they found her own cat's hair on the hat, and she was like, oh, yeah, that is mine. I don't know how it got over there.

[Em]

Okay. Yeah, not even good. Like, if you're going to pull something like this off, you have to have. You have to know your own alibi. Like, you have to think about it.

[Christine]

It's a moment of passion, right? Like, she just was, like, probably in a panic. Like, yeah, she. I don't think this was premeditated as much as they fought all the time. It sounds like it just went too far. So finally, after searching for these witnesses, witnesses did come forward to describe what they had seen that night, and it was not what, you know, Tracy had described. Essentially, people in the area described having seen only one vehicle, and it happened to be Tracy's and le driving down the road. In fact, another driver actually watched as Lee sped by a fork in the road and then slammed on the brakes, apparently having taken the wrong. Having taken the wrong fork in the road, sped backwards, slammed the brakes a second time, then sped forward again down the other road. And there was no second car. Car, but he was driving erratically and angrily.

[Em]

I see.

[Christine]

You know, whether or not this is what this other driver witnessed. And they said, yes, he was slamming on the brakes and driving erratically, but there was not another car involved. This was just the one.

[Em]

Interesting. So the. The two men in the car totally made up.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

Yep, yep. So when the police responded to the scene, Lee's car was parked neatly on the side of the road, as if he had parked there deliberately, not as if he'd been, like, stopped in the middle of the road and had to slot, you know, slam brake. Skidmore marks. None of that. So the missing piece of evidence that challenged the prosecution, of course, was the murder weapon, because that could not be found. Now, detectives suspected a small pocket blade or even a pair of scissors on a Swiss army knife. Yeah. As being what. What had. What had killed him. But they couldn't find a weapon, even after extensive searches by teams, like on their hands and knees, digging through dirt and leaves, trying to find it. Wow. So what they concluded. Now, here's the thing. During her hospital stay, she went to use the bathroom multiple times.

[Em]

Oh.

[Christine]

And they weren't sure why. And they believe that during one of those times, she had found a way to dispose of the knife, the murder weapon, in the bathroom. I mean, I don't know about the 90s, but now there's those sharps containers. You could probably just. Yeah, you know, no one will know. Know biohazard. So in July 1997, the case went to trial, and despite the lack of a murder weapon, Tracy was found guilty and sentenced to life in prison with a possibility for parole. In 1999, she wrote a letter to her lawyer confessing to killing Lee.

[Em]

Oh, okay. Well, that. Ding, ding.

[Christine]

There you have it. She did claim, however, that it was an act of self defense.

[Em]

Okay, maybe.

[Christine]

Okay, maybe. We'll see. According to her new story, Lee parked the car, both of them got out, started shouting at each other. She said Lee pushed her down onto the pavement and pulled out a pocket knife. She said she need him, took the knife and turned it on Lee to save her own life. And she also admitted to disposing of the knife in the hospital.

[Em]

Oh, okay.

[Christine]

So investigators took one look at this and said, no, because Lee was stabbed in the back repeatedly, as if he had been caught completely off guard by the attack, and she had come up behind him with her own weapon and had attacked him.

[Em]

Also, why is she admitting this at all? Like, I feel like this is to.

[Christine]

Come, because now she's trying to say, oh, well, I did do it, but, like, because it was self defense, you know, it's not the same because she was found guilty of murder. So she's like, yeah, okay, fine, but like, it wasn't cold blooded murder. It was in self defense. Get me out of here. And they were like, no, you stabbed him in the back, but thanks for admitting you did it. You know, that's helpful.

[Em]

All right.

[Christine]

In the years following Tracy's sentencing, Lee's family fought to make sure she couldn't live near them if she were ever released. They just couldn't stand the thought of her being like around in town in the same places that they were. They wanted a 50 mile buffer, but the court only granted them a 25 mile buffer. The court also said that Tracy might be allowed to visit her daughter Carla, who lived only a few miles from Lee's family. But this devastated Maureen because she was just so terrified that she would just go out for a walk and see Tracy in the neighborhood. Like the woman who killed her son, stabbed her son and then held her hand at a press conference and lied about it. I mean, it's got to be such a mind. In 2010, Lee's daughter Danielle said in an interview that she had actually found found Tracy's daughter Carla on Facebook. So the two sisters who had like bonded as kids and then got like split when their father was killed and their mother went to prison. Now they had reconnected in 2010. And so Danielle reached out and they spoke about their parents and what had happened and then they decided to focus on happier topics. Interestingly, both women were pregnant and were due within just weeks of each other other at the time that they reconnected. And Danielle said she hoped their futures would be happier than their pasts. But she also said there's just this like, nagging, like she just wants to know why Tracy killed her father. Like she. She just is like, I wish I had some sort of answer or closure. But it's unclear if that'll ever happen or if they can ever make sense of the attack. Tracy ended up being released from prison after serving 14 years of her life sentence. Sentence. She has since changed her name multiple times and gotten married. Upon Tracy's release, Maureen struggled when she saw photos of Tracy in the news and heard her. Heard that she was spending time with her daughter and her grandkid. And Maureen said it was just so unfair that she can only visit her own son in a cemetery and he'll never meet his grandchildren. She said, I could lie to you and say I don't hate her, but I can't lie to myself and God about what's in my heart. I can never forgive her. Says Morgan. Screen will stop with time, but they don't.

[Em]

Yeah. No one judges you for hating her.

[Christine]

No. No. If you're gonna hate anyone, it might as well be your son's murderer.

[Em]

Right? You got a good reason to hate someone.

[Christine]

Yeah, but I want to send. That was the end of the story. But I want to send you a picture because this is kind of what people have started, the picture people started using of her because remember how she said the eyes you Know, like the staring eyes or the whatever eyes. So this is the picture that went like a viral at the time. Time.

[Em]

Well, it's an. You know, she's probably gotten that comment from people before for her to also. Oh, my God.

[Christine]

Crazy.

[Em]

Wow.

[Christine]

You know, that's.

[Em]

You can't hide from that. You can't hide from. From those eyes. That's. She, like, on drugs or like, is something going on there? Or that's just what she.

[Christine]

She was screaming at the press during the press conference. I think she was. That was during a press conference. I believe she was explaining the crime and saying, we've better find out who did this to my husband and. Or my.

[Em]

Yeah, that's a frightening. That's a frightening girl.

[Christine]

And here's the two of them together.

[Em]

Okay. Okay. Yeah. Less.

[Christine]

Yeah, she looks less. Like. Totally. Yeah. Yeah.

[Em]

But still, that's.

[Christine]

Wow, it's pretty dark tail.

[Em]

An image I can't run from.

[Christine]

Yeah. Yeah. So that's the story, folks. Thanks for listening to Another Day of Darkness. We. We deeply appreciate you. And, you know, it's a new year. We're trying. Trying to get through it. We are going on tour starting next month, which is very exciting. We have a whole new list of cities on our website. And that's why you drink.com live. You can find us ATWD podcast on all socials. What else? What else? We wrote a book. We have a Patreon where you can listen to our yappy hour that we're about to record off air, where we just talk about all sorts of fun things, sometimes do tarot polls, sometimes just do personality quizzes, sometimes talk about ghosts. And you can find [e-mail] ATWDpodcast and the rest of it just go to our website. And that's where you drink dot com.

[Em]

And our most important thing to say today, which we forgot at the top of the episode.

[Christine]

I knew it. I forgot. I totally forgo forgot.

[Em]

Happy concepisode.

[Christine]

Concepisode.

[Em]

Hello, it's our concepisode, our conception episode, when we decided that we were. The idea struck today, eight years ago that we would start a podcast together.

[Christine]

Eight years ago.

[Em]

I can't wait for our decade. We're gonna have a party. We should have a party. We should talk to Maggie about doing something for our.

[Christine]

We should have a gala.

[Em]

Now that.

[Christine]

A gala. A gala. Hold on, everybody. Hold on. Write that down.

[Em]

We should hire, like, Eva.

[Christine]

Write that down.

[Em]

Those cryptid drag queens, all that. We should. We should really throw a big bash for our tenure that'd be so fun.

[Christine]

I'm on it. I mean, I'm not on it, but I'm. I'm on it. Like, I'm on it with you. I'm on board with you.

[Em]

Well, happy concepisode. Eight years of happiness with you, Christine. And officially, eight years of happiness in February.

[Christine]

I can't believe it. We're getting there. We're getting so close, folks. And thank you.

[Em]

We have a third grader now.

[Christine]

We have a third grader. And guess what? You guys made this all possible because you're the godparents, you know, of this.

[Em]

Of Crema, our beautiful podcast, our little baby ket podcast. Thank you, everybody, and thank you for eight years. And we'll. We'll see it. We'll say it again in February.

[Christine]

Yeah, we'll say it again many times.

[Em]

That's why we drink.