E420 Demons with Tongs and the Big Loft in the Sky

Summary

Podcast Summary: "E420 Demons with Tongs and the Big Loft in the Sky"

And That's Why We Drink hosts Christine Schiefer and Em Schulz delve deep into the intertwining realms of true crime and the paranormal in their February 23, 2025 episode titled "E420 Demons with Tongs and the Big Loft in the Sky." This episode takes listeners on a chilling journey, exploring the infamous Humpty Doo Poltergeist case in Australia and unraveling the mysterious murder of Frank McAllister. Through engaging discussions, personal insights, and compelling narratives, Christine and Em seamlessly blend their passion for the supernatural with gripping true crime storytelling.

---

Humpty Doo Poltergeist: A Case Study in Supernatural Phenomena

The episode opens with Christine and Em reminiscing about their experiences with paranormal investigations, setting the stage for an in-depth analysis of the Humpty Doo Poltergeist case. Located in Australia, this poltergeist is renowned for its relentless activity, which includes throwing rocks, knives, shards of glass, and even bullets.

Notable Quote:

Em [22:21]: “They shouted. The camera crew shouted again at the ghost and said, at least do one on camera if you're gonna do this. And moments later, a camera somewhat caught footage.”

Christine and Em express their frustrations with capturing definitive evidence of the poltergeist's activity, highlighting the elusive nature of such phenomena. Despite the extensive media coverage and multiple investigations, tangible proof remains scarce, leaving both skeptics and believers puzzled.

Notable Quote:

Christine [25:50]: “We did try so many times and it like, didn't people just play? It didn't play. It did play.”

The hosts discuss various theories surrounding the poltergeist's behavior, including the possibility of it possessing intelligence and awareness, reacting strategically to investigations and media presence.

---

Challenges in Paranormal Documentation

Christine and Em delve into the practical difficulties faced during paranormal investigations. They emphasize the importance of meticulous documentation and the frustrations when activity occurs outside camera frames, rendering evidence inconclusive.

Notable Quote:

Em [26:22]: “It also sucks when like I've talked about it before, but like the amount of hours it takes staring in the dark to silent at silence and like just hoping you get something.”

Their conversation underscores the emotional and technical hurdles investigators face, such as equipment malfunctions and the unpredictability of supernatural occurrences.

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The Frank McAllister Murder Case: A Tale of Tragedy and Mystery

Shifting from the paranormal, Christine introduces the harrowing story of Frank McAllister, whose mysterious disappearance and subsequent murder rocked his family and community. Born on September 20, 1973, Frank led what seemed to be an idyllic life until his untimely death in 1993.

Notable Quote:

Christine [95:19]: “Frank was denied. His whole life filled with opportunity, the creation of a family, a chance to love and be loved.”

Frank's case garnered significant attention due to the violent nature of his murder and the lingering questions surrounding it. Despite multiple leads and confessions, the truth remained obscured for years.

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Confessions and Courtroom Drama

In January 2018, a breakthrough occurred when Brian Hawkins, one of the last individuals to see Frank alive, confessed to his role in the murder during a live interview with reporter Courtney Kreider. This confession implicated Shanna Culver and Curtis Culver, leading to their eventual convictions.

Notable Quote:

Em [137:29]: “Well, that wasn't even a real tip. Like, why would you even invent that?”

Christine and Em analyze the dynamics of the confession, questioning Brian's motives and the validity of his statements. They explore how this revelation brought closure to Frank's family but also reopened old wounds and suspicions.

Notable Quote:

Christine [146:53]: “At least she got some closure. But still. Frank's family released a statement...”

Despite Brian's admission, the hosts ponder the psychological and emotional factors that led him to confess years later, considering theories like guilt, seeking redemption, or the influence of external pressures.

---

Theories and Reflections

Throughout the episode, Christine and Em offer their own theories on both the Humpty Doo Poltergeist and Frank McAllister's murder. They contemplate the intersection of unresolved grief and supernatural manifestations, suggesting that Frank's tragedy might have intensified paranormal activities in Humpty Doo.

Notable Quote:

Em [73:06]: "Wait a minute, maybe you're right."

Their reflections highlight the complex relationship between human emotions and the supernatural, proposing that intense emotional states can influence or even create paranormal phenomena.

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Personal Anecdotes and Podcast Dynamics

Interwoven with the main narratives, Christine and Em share personal stories about their own paranormal investigations, equipment mishaps, and the challenges of maintaining a podcast centered around dark and mysterious topics. Their candid conversations add depth to the episode, making listeners feel connected to their journey.

Notable Quote:

Christine [151:34]: “Thank you. You know, not only do I like a nap, I like a little bougie nap.”

These anecdotes serve to humanize the hosts, showcasing their dedication and passion for uncovering the truth behind each story they present.

---

Conclusion: A Blend of Mystery and Morality

In wrapping up the episode, Christine and Em emphasize the enduring allure of true crime and the paranormal. They reflect on the balance between seeking evidence and respecting the experiences of those affected by tragedies and unexplained phenomena.

Notable Quote:

Christine [86:12]: “Cropster has spoken. The Cropster has. Has spoken. I. I believe it.”

Their concluding thoughts invite listeners to ponder the mysteries presented, encouraging a deeper contemplation of the unseen forces that shape human lives and tragedies.

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Final Thoughts

"E420 Demons with Tongs and the Big Loft in the Sky" masterfully intertwines a gripping true crime narrative with the enigmatic realm of the paranormal. Through thoughtful analysis, personal insights, and engaging storytelling, Christine Schiefer and Em Schulz deliver an episode that captivates and provokes deep reflection on the mysteries that lurk both in our world and beyond.

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Note: All timestamps correspond to the provided transcript for reference.

Transcript

[Christine]

Holy shit. What you've just heard is one of the many deaths from the Monkey. The new major motion picture from Osgood Perkins, Stephen King and James Wan. Experience it in theaters everywhere this Friday because everybody dies and that's life. Let's have some fun. I do research sometimes because I'm really. I just have a lot of time on my hands that I'm also very educated and intellectual.

[Em]

This is an ad, by the way.

[Christine]

According to research that ZipRecruiter did, presumably not I. A major hurdle is the pressure to hire quickly. I mean, to be fair, we have direct experience. Granted, it's anecdotal and we overcame it really quickly because we did have ZipRecruiter. But it is hard to like, weed through all the applications. Applications and from the other side as the employee to find a good match. Well, if you're an employer who can relate, I have one question for you. Have you tried ZipRecruiter?

[Em]

We honestly can't give you that lengthy of a review about ZipRecruiter because we weren't even on the website for more than one day. Which is exactly what it wants from you though. But yeah, if you are an employer looking for some help, you gotta try out ZipRecruiter. In fact, four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. That's exactly what happened to us.

[Christine]

So. So relax employers, and let ZipRecruiter speed up your hiring. See for yourself. Just go to ziprecruiter.com drink right now to try it for free. That's the same price as a genuine smile from a stranger, a picture perfect sunset, or a cute dog running up to you and licking your hand. Again, that's ZipRecruiter.com Drink ZipRecruiter. The smartest way to hire.

[Em]

Welcome from Christine's favorite spot. And it's not her podcast studio.

[Christine]

No. Well, it is now.

[Em]

Okay. I guess that's the power of having a portable microphone. So any. Anything can be a studio. A beach. Why don't we record there sometime?

[Christine]

Remember when my brother and I took all our recording equipment to the beach.

[Em]

For that photo shoot?

[Christine]

Yeah. And then we got back and I was like, em will never know. And then it was just covered in sand.

[Em]

Well, that's fine.

[Christine]

I mean, I had to be like, this is really awkward. M. But I borrowed your microphone and dropped it on a beach in like two hours away.

[Em]

I forgot those when Sandy and I shared equipment. Oh, the days.

[Christine]

Good times.

[Em]

Ah, now I Should share something of his. How's that loft in New York doing? Yeah, loft.

[Christine]

That's quite a word. He's gonna be thrilled you called out a loft.

[Em]

Is it. Is it not a loft?

[Christine]

I mean, what's a loft? Isn't that like a fancy. Like a penthouse thing?

[Em]

Oh, I. Not. Not in my mind.

[Christine]

I have no idea.

[Em]

In my mind, a loft is just also an apartment. I don't know. But then I've.

[Christine]

To me, loft makes me think of lofted ceilings. I think that's why maybe in my head, it's fancier.

[Em]

Is that why it's called a loft? I've literally never known what it was called.

[Christine]

I have no clue. Huh.

[Em]

Look at us not knowing things.

[Christine]

Word.

[Em]

What a good way to start this.

[Christine]

It's an upper room or floor. Yeah. So it's kind of like a penthouse thing. I think, like, a lofted apartment is like, the top floor.

[Em]

Well, you can tell him I still think he probably lives in a loft. I don't know anything about his apartment, so I'm just gonna. Let's just make it up.

[Christine]

I guess you don't listen to Beachy Sandy because on the background of Beachy Sandy, you can see cars driving by. Because he lives, like, it out on the street.

[Em]

He lives under a loft. For sure.

[Christine]

For sure. Big time. Don't we all in that regard?

[Em]

My loft is an attic, I guess. What's your loft? Three more.

[Christine]

My loft is just a great big loft in the sky. You know what I mean?

[Em]

Christine, today feels weird, and I don't know why.

[Christine]

Oh, what is that? I think I also have some of my teeth, but every time I go to check, I'm like, oh, no. Now everyone can see me do it.

[Em]

Let me see. Give everyone a tour. A teeth tour.

[Christine]

See, there's something.

[Em]

Do you have a tooth you're insecure about?

[Christine]

That's a really good question. I mean, definitely where they pulled this one after I broke it on a piece of popcorn. What about you? So it's like the absence of a tooth.

[Em]

This one always makes it look like it's darker because it's behind me. Oh, mine too.

[Christine]

Yes, I have the same.

[Em]

I always feel like people think my tooth's, like, browning or something. I don't know. I'm just always when I use, like.

[Christine]

Whitening strips, I, like, push it in there to be like, yeah, that's so gross. Sorry.

[Em]

This is the. This is the only tooth that pretty much I needed braces for, and then I got braces twice, and it still shifts.

[Christine]

Mine is still done, too.

[Em]

Yeah. She's a wily one. She's the troublemaker at times.

[Christine]

And why do you drink this week? Besides your wily teeth?

[Em]

I don't know. I don't know. Thank you. I don't know. I'm just in, like, a weird headspace today.

[Christine]

What's going on? I feel really weird, too.

[Em]

I don't know. Maybe it's something in the air. Maybe we both sense winds in the east. I don't know. Maybe it's a. I don't know. I haven't. Help me. I don't know.

[Christine]

I feel like I've just, like, exited this plane and I don't know if I'll come back.

[Em]

Maybe I've just checked the out. I don't know. You know, maybe everyone else is feeling this way too.

[Christine]

Remember the listener stories where somebody where they were talking about laying back down into your body? I feel like that. Like I'm doing that. Like I'm trying to re enter my own body and failing.

[Em]

Sure I can. I understand that.

[Christine]

And it's like I'm just kind of up here and I feel like I can't get in the zone.

[Em]

Okay, what do you usually do to get in the zone? Not even for a podcast, Just like, to get yourself gassed about anything?

[Christine]

I don't think I have a method, really, do you?

[Em]

I have like a. It's almost like a box of goodies and I'll pull one out, but it's not.

[Christine]

How does that work?

[Em]

Like, one of the things would be I listened to the theme song from Practical Magic.

[Christine]

Oh, some music always helps, for sure.

[Em]

Another one is I buy myself a sweet treat, which I didn't do today. Maybe that's why I'm off.

[Christine]

Oh, that's probably what's going on.

[Em]

Maybe I've pavlovianly started treating myself to the scary man who shows up with my doordash. I didn't call for him today.

[Christine]

You wanted that thrill of his arrival and the mysterious of a knock on the door.

[Em]

Maybe he's the only thrill I get sometimes. Maybe I just need to feel something.

[Christine]

Maybe the only thrill I get is watching you almost get abducted every time you open. Open your door.

[Em]

Yeah, I don't know what's going on. I think I'm enjoying being home, which is like, it never fucking happens. We finally don't have a foster dog in this house, which is nice for a second. It feels like there's enough space for everyone.

[Christine]

And some of the pictures you were sending, I was like, these fur balls I don't know how they do it.

[Em]

And what else? What am I doing?

[Christine]

I don't think it is. It's February 3rd. That feels like such an anticlimactic day.

[Em]

Sorry to everyone whose birthday's today. But, yeah, I agree.

[Christine]

If it is, I'm happy for you because I feel like that's a good day to have a special event. Do you know what I mean?

[Em]

Yeah, yeah.

[Christine]

Like, in my life, no one's busy, nothing. It doesn't mean much to me right now. So. Yeah, I don't know. I feel like in between, it's not.

[Em]

The Blaze effect, where, like, his birthday is always on a holiday.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

February 3rd, everyone's free.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

I'm missing something. What else is going on February 3rd? Nothing. Valentine's Day's in, like, a week and a half in the air. Yes. Cupid is starting to descend. Oh, God, look out. I don't know if I'm even doing anything for Valentine's Day. Well, I don't. Maybe I also. Surprise me.

[Christine]

I was supposed to go to a wedding this weekend. I was so excited. And I was going to be up at the Dayton Art Institute. It was going to be beautiful. And then Blaze tore his ligament off his own femur and then had the audacity to get extremely ill with either Covid or the flu. We're not entirely sure, but he's been just laid up.

[Em]

Well, that's why you're burnt out. You've just been 24 7, mom, like, without any back.

[Christine]

Actually, I did text you yesterday. I think in the haze of it, I was, like, nearly dead. I was like, I don't know. And then I remembered we had an episode today and I was like, oh, my God, I have to do, like, a work day. After putting Leona down for bed at 8 o'clock, it was a very overwhelming feeling, as most parents have probably experienced. But Blaze is back at it today. A little bit better. Well, a lot better, because we're recording this days later. But he's back. Back in the swing of the routine. So I'm. I'm here.

[Em]

I'm grateful for a good guy. Ye.

[Christine]

Yeah, I'm. I'm back. He also knows he's in trouble for breaking his own body. So much to the detriment of all of us. But they're at the zoo now and it's 61 degrees out here. I think everything here just feels topsy turvy, like humpty doo, Humpty do. It's really warm out. It's February 3rd. I'm in bed and I'm. I shouldn't. I should be in a studio. I think I've just set myself up for failure and I apologize about that.

[Em]

Yeah, I don't know today would be.

[Christine]

A good day for a mental breakdown on air, so I think it's hard to follow that up. Remember?

[Em]

No, remind me.

[Christine]

Careful.

[Em]

I. You know what I think I need to do? I think I need to buy myself a gift. I think that's what I'm gonna do today. Wait.

[Christine]

I kind of like that. I've been on a no buy for like a whole month. So I think I also deserve a.

[Em]

Fun little See, okay. See, that's what I'm gonna drink today because we're both gonna have fun little treats by the end of this. What are you gonna buy? Tell me, what are you going to search for when you start? Because one thing I do, I sometimes I don't know what I'm going to buy. I just go on Etsy and my fingers go a wandering on that keyboard. What's the first thing you're going to type out and search and just see?

[Christine]

Maybe I. I'm not going to online shop. That's one of my things that I'm trying to cut back on. However, I may go to S Bucks and get a little FLT at S Bucks or at probably a local coffee chain since, you know, part of the no buy, I guess is trying to be a little more conscientious. But I, I don't know, maybe I'll get myself like a little lavender latte or something.

[Em]

I'm gonna online shop.

[Christine]

I mean normally I would and I did and I do every single day. So I'm very actively trying to slow my role in that regard and have been more successful than I expected. So, you know, nice. I want to keep it up.

[Em]

I, I could always use a fun little thing. Cause usually my online shopping, if I, if I'm having a day like this and I'm like, I don't know what's going on. I need to heal myself with a purchase. I try to keep it small but mighty. So I do like, I'll give myself like, to give myself the high of like buying a bunch of stuff. I'll buy like 10 stickers or like 10 enamel pins or something that are like for sale. So in that way I feel like I'm in abundance but I also haven't like broken a bank. So I love that I'll probably do that today. I think that's.

[Christine]

I just used to buy everything that I thought of at every moment. So, you know, I was healing myself constantly and it wasn't working. I don't know why, but it wasn't. So, you know, this year I was like, I'm gonna try a little something different. And rocket money is thrilled. Rocket money is like, are you okay? Did you die? Should we call the authorities? Something's going on.

[Em]

Well, my rocket money is like, obviously you have. You have not done.

[Christine]

Your enamel pin budget is out of control.

[Em]

I. I will say one of that. I. I treated myself to this weekend because I was also having. Not really a sad day.

[Christine]

I.

[Em]

It was having a. I was in a funk. I was just kind of like, eh, nothing. There's no real reason. I just don't feel great and. Oh, hang on. Do you want to use. Do you want to use the audio device? M's phone's microphone?

[Christine]

No, certainly not.

[Em]

Certainly not.

[Christine]

I mean, I want to use it, but only for my own nefarious purposes, not for the episode.

[Em]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, nice. So I was in a bit of a little funk and so I was like, I'm just gonna treat myself and go somewhere and do like a little self date. And so I took myself right down the road and went to. I did like a Warner Brothers tour, which I've done like 20 times.

[Christine]

It's your favorite though. It's such a. It's a comfort thing for you.

[Em]

Yeah, well, there's nothing I love more than being able to insert myself into a fantasy world. And so it's like those old people.

[Christine]

Who used to go to work at Coney island and then like make a nickel and then they was like that.

[Em]

Because I left without any nickels. That's so weird.

[Christine]

You did it wrong then. Yeah, that's what it reminds me of. I think I've just lost the plot. But I'm with you now. I'm with you, but I'm back. You went to the Walt Studios. Got. Went to a magical, fantastical world to escape the drudgery of everyday life. Yeah, I did.

[Em]

I. There's nothing I love more than being a lot.

[Christine]

What's your favorite, like set? No, I know, but which set is your favorite? To pass every time.

[Em]

There's one that's called Hennessy street, which is like the New York street. It's the corner where if they ever had to do exteriors of Central park from Friends, it was there. If they ever had to do.

[Christine]

That's so cool. So it's very iconic.

[Em]

It's very iconic. And it looks as it did since the 30s. They created that street for the musical Annie. Shut up. Like the first movie version, I guess, of Annie. Wow. Or I guess that would be the 30s or the 80s, because there was an 80s one too. Anyway, one of the Annie's. I think it was the 1980s version because there was a big fire. I like almost know all the history at this point in this place, but it hasn't changed since. But if you ever see the movie annie and like Ms. Hannigan walks out and everything, it looks exactly like that when they aren't dressing it for something else. So it just feels very like old New York. And. And then I also really like.

[Christine]

Does it change when you go past it? Like, do people still use that set?

[Em]

Oh, yeah, all the time.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Em]

They have like 12 backlots. But they. When you're not filming, you have to take everything down. I've never done this tour program comes in or another show comes in. My other favorite street is Midwest street. That's like, that's Stars Hollow. And for Gilmore Girl fans.

[Christine]

Wow.

[Em]

And it looks like Stars. Fun fact. Stars Hollow. If you're. If they're ever in like the. The city. If you see a building behind them that's like a red storefront. That's also the bar in Shameless.

[Christine]

Wow.

[Em]

I know. It's very fun. I really like doing it. I do it way too often. If they had a season pass, I would go all the time. I mean, I. It's in my neighborhood. It's a lot cheaper than Disney World. I mean, think about it.

[Christine]

If you had kids too, It'd be like, hop in the car. We're going to the.

[Em]

You know, like going to Stars Hollow again.

[Christine]

What's there to do today? Let's do that. I love that. I love that you have this activity.

[Em]

Anyway, it made me feel good. And then also they have a cupcake there I'm a big fan of because at the end they. You go to like a coffee shop that's dressed as Central park and they always have this chocolate cupcake I'm a big fan of. So that was my sweet treat after my fun day. And then I had a good day. So all that. Maybe I go back to Warner Brothers today after this. I don't know.

[Christine]

Maybe I go back to Warner Brothers after this.

[Em]

Okay, I've talked enough. What do you drink? Why do you drink?

[Christine]

Oh, geez. Well, I got my water bottle here. My, my good old Stan Leap. My orange one with my scrappy sticker.

[Em]

Look at that little squirrel.

[Christine]

Which I actually got you the Same one. Like, I got us matching scrappy stickers, but it's in my drawer, and I have yet to give it to you, so.

[Em]

Okay. Well, I appreciate. I'll definitely put it on my. Stanley.

[Christine]

Thank you.

[Em]

I. Since mine's nakey. And do you have a reason why you drink besides just being in a funk, or you think that's probably it?

[Christine]

I definitely said a reason. Now. I don't recall.

[Em]

Oh, Blaze. I think.

[Christine]

Yes, Blaze. Okay, great. Oh, no, because I missed that wedding. I was bummed, and it was, like, the last wedding of the friend group, you know, and so.

[Em]

Oh, that sucks.

[Christine]

You know, everyone came into town for it, and so it was like, oh, well, we lost our, like, little shot, and people have kids now, so it's, like, harder. Anyway, kind of a bummer, but, you know, it happens. Life happens. I sent them a nice little wedding honeymoon gift as a apology.

[Em]

Nice. Well, maybe Allison and I will get married. Just kidding.

[Christine]

Good one.

[Em]

Just know you always have someone who's not married next to you, so maybe there's always a wedding away for you.

[Christine]

I know. That's a. That's a hope I cling to.

[Em]

Yeah, well, you and my mother, so.

[Christine]

I feel like that's not the first time we've had this conversation.

[Em]

She's. She's amazed that anyone can not want to get married. And she's done it a million times, so who does she. Who's she to complain?

[Christine]

She's like, it's so easy.

[Em]

She's like, trust me, you can just do it again if you want.

[Christine]

So many parties involved. It's like, why wouldn't you want to do this?

[Em]

I think she's just like, you got to come to so many of mine. I don't get to come to any of yours. That's so not fair.

[Christine]

Anyway, always a bride, never the guest at the wedding.

[Em]

That is. That is the.

[Christine]

The cross she bears. Never the mother of the. Of the. What do you call it?

[Em]

You're killing it. I love it.

[Christine]

Person.

[Em]

Never the. Never the mother of the person. Always the mother.

[Christine]

Wow, that's so dark for her. Look, they're sitting on my teeth again. What is going on?

[Em]

Is there. I think you're making it up. I don't see anything.

[Christine]

They saw it. They all saw it.

[Em]

Okay, well, yeah, they're all talking about in the comments. Okay, I have a part two for you.

[Christine]

Oh, my God. I already forgot. Okay, here's the thing. The skims undies, they're really durable. Like game changer. Like game changing. I was walking around Like Lala. I just felt so, felt so cozy in that. I just was so surprised because I've, I mean, I'll be honest, I bought my underwear from the same place my whole life, really. And I have not thought to change it up. And I'm like, what have I been missing? You know?

[Em]

And Skims has their Fits Everybody collection. The material is worth the hype. It is so comfy. I mean, talk about buttery. Talk about stretchy. Talk about it. I'll warn you, it looks tiny, but give her a try. It does fit. It fits.

[Christine]

It's so beautiful. Okay, people, the Fits Everybody collection is available in sizes XXS to 4X. You can shop now at skims.com and skim stores.

[Em]

After you place your order, be sure to let them know that we sent you select podcast in the survey and be sure to select our show in the dropdown menu that follows. As all of you know, I was just back at my mom's house for the last month and that means I was in my childhood bedroom. And instead of her keeping it like a shrine as if I was hit by a bus, she has turned it into the cat's room. And so the whole time I was walking around it just, you know, I'm now going to be sending her Pretty litter.

[Christine]

I've loved Pretty litter for years. It's, it's just such a really genius invention. First of all, it's a non clumping formula that traps odor and moisture. It's ultra absorbent, it's lightweight, there's like barely any dust, you know, that like litter dust, one six pound bag works for up to a month. And the coolest part to me at least is that it changes color to indicate early signs of potential illnesses in your cat. So UTIs, kidney issues, those kind of things that cats are prone to. It can like give you a hint that maybe, you know, take them to the vet, which is so cool.

[Em]

And since Pretty Litter ships right to your door, you never run out. You don't have to worry about huge kitty litter bags taking up space. And you don't have to go out in the cold and lug those huge tubs from a store.

[Christine]

Indoor cats and indoor humans agree. Pretty litter helps my house smell fresh and clean. Go to prettylitter.com to save 20 on your first order and get a free cat toy.

[Em]

Okay, so for those who listen backwards, don't do that this time because my story, this is a part two. This is the Humpty Do Poltergeist. What do you remember from the Pumpty doo Poltergeist. So I can fill you in?

[Christine]

What don't I remember? I remember that this was a group of folks, fifth wheel was involved, who lived in a kind of biker home. And they had this poltergeist who was throwing rocks, gravel from the driveway at them inside the house. And then they were, like, shocked that it kind of took media. The media by storm.

[Em]

Yeah. So well done, Christine.

[Christine]

Thank you.

[Em]

And that's what you missed on Glee. So, yeah, the place is just. They're like. It's just raining rocks on them. They're just getting pelted with stuff. They're also getting pelted with, like, knives and shards of glass, bullets.

[Christine]

I'm like, oh, a little gravel from the driveway. You're like, well, there's also knives and shards of glass, right? Those also, yeah.

[Em]

And they've had three different clergymen come in, and all of it has failed. They've seen the rocks form themselves into piles and turn into.

[Christine]

There was the guy that they thought it was their friend Troy, but it was spelled wrong. And then his mother came and said she didn't know. And then the roommates were like, it's not our friend. Yeah, he wouldn't throw a knife at me. He did that one time, but we were really drunk. Okay.

[Em]

It never happened. That's really politely for him to stop, and he didn't, so riddle me that. And then, yeah, the rocks were creating, like, designs, like a cross and a trident or maybe a pitchfork. And then they, like, exploded everywhere.

[Christine]

Imagine they started to spell words trident. Like, we did. Like, I immediately said trident.

[Em]

Well, they all said trident, too. I'm the only one here saying pitchfork. But that makes sense, right?

[Christine]

Of course it makes sense. And of course it pissed the devil off. Like, he's like, I just made a trident to scare you, and you're calling it, like, the fucking Little Mermaid. You know, that must have pissed him right off.

[Em]

They. Oh, and then the. They have a little kid there named Jasmine, But Jasmine has. They haven't. It hasn't messed with Jasmine. So that's one of the reasons why they've stuck around. They're like, as long as it stays on us. And every time that something has hit them, it is, like, allegedly really soft and, like.

[Christine]

Oh, yes. Yeah.

[Em]

It's. It's almost like it just wants attention and it's not actually trying to hurt anybody. So that's one of the reasons why they allow it. Even though they just see knives getting thrown across the room all the time.

[Christine]

Right.

[Em]

Couldn't be Me.

[Christine]

Could probably be me. But, you know, I think that's.

[Em]

I think Blaze has to live with that. And you just throw things across the room.

[Christine]

Oh, that's why it sounds so familiar. Yes.

[Em]

Yeah. You're like, give this ghost a break. I'm like, what?

[Christine]

I don't understand the problem here.

[Em]

A little too close to home for Christine. So that is where I left you. Oh, no, that's not where I left you. I left you where after the clergy came multiple times, and, like, the crucifix and the Bible were getting ripped up and thrown across the room. That ended up spreading through the town, and local media found out, and then people started reaching out, and now Channel seven has exclusive rights to film here and get the piece for the show. I think the show was called, like, Today Tonight or something.

[Christine]

Oh, yeah. And everybody was a believer within the first, like, hour.

[Em]

Well, yes, and everyone who came. Everyone on the crew came and immediately believed in the story. So blah, blah, blah, blah. I. Here we go. Okay. So eventually, the tenants make a deal with Channel 7's Today Tonight program. It seems very national inquiry or, like, tabloidy, so I don't think anyone legitimate was coming to get the story because I thought it was bullshit. So it was kind of like, oh, well, we'll take it, because at least it's interesting. And Channel 7, they originally were going to bring in just two cameras. They ended up with, like, seven cameras, like, all filming around the house at the same time. And the camera crew stayed at the house for a full week. And ironically, Channel 7 was there. And there was a reporter there also named Max. He was a writer for a magazine in the area.

[Christine]

Oh, Mad Max.

[Em]

Exactly. This is his start, actually.

[Christine]

Mad Max.

[Em]

Actually, that'd be hysterical if Mad Max did a piece for Mad. Just saying. So Max and also this crew for Channel seven, they were the ones who got to come in. They went in, I think, because they thought this wasn't possibly real. They went in assuming that the activity was a hoax, and they planned to debunk it for the show. They were like, oh, we're just gonna go in there and, like.

[Christine]

Which would also be a fun show.

[Em]

That would be fun. I think that's called, like, Mythbusters or something.

[Christine]

Oh, yeah.

[Em]

But one of the things the crew did was they also brought in a thermal camera, which you and I have used on our investigations.

[Christine]

We've gotten some creepy stuff.

[Em]

We got a picture of a. A full body, which, like, by the way, maybe we'll put that in this show because, like, can we like put that on the screen because that got taken out of the live show because no one reacted. The theater, the audience didn't.

[Christine]

We tried so many times and it like, didn't people just play? It didn't play. It did play. And that happens all the time. Like, well, if you saw early versions of the show, of the tour and you see the last. So much has shifted and changed and I feel like we tried. We. We clung on to this picture for so long. So we were like, but it's so creepy. But we eventually just had to cut it. But yeah, I'm curious, we should post it also on social media and see if anyone find interesting it did not play well. We were like, is this thing on? You know, I mean, it was rough.

[Em]

It also sucks when like I've talked about it before, but like the amount of hours it takes staring in the dark to silent at silence and like just hoping you get something. And then after all the hours and days and days and days of looking through footage, you finally find something and then the audience doesn't give a shit. And I'm like, what? I'm like, this is so good.

[Christine]

It's also like crazy when you and I work each other up and Eva and we amp each other up and we're all like on the same page and then like, nobody agrees and we're like. And you know, I don't even know that it's. Nobody finds it interesting. I think maybe it just doesn't play to an audience. Like, yeah, it's not like, oh my God, you know, it's more like, huh, that's crazy. But it just doesn't work for a live audience.

[Em]

It didn't push the story, I suppose didn't push the narrative along. But yeah, it was when we were at the Queen Mary in the boiler room and there was someone there who died. He. Oh, one of the. Something in there exploded. He ended up burning to death. And now he's known to like oil. He's known to linger in that area. We got a full ass picture of a person standing there and. And the crowd goes mild, apparently so.

[Christine]

I've never heard that. I'm sorry, I'm assuming this is like a thing, but that was very funny.

[Em]

It is a thing, but thank you. I'm gonna take credit for like five seconds. But anyway, so yeah, we'll put that picture up. And that was taken using a thermal camera which finds heat register or heat signatures.

[Christine]

It's also called like a flir, right? F L I R. Yeah, yeah.

[Em]

I forget what it stands for I do too.

[Christine]

But my stepdad had one all the time growing up, and he would, like, walk around the house to check where air leaks were. Of course, they were always in my room. They had to tape up all the damn windows.

[Em]

Well, no, it's a. It's a very cool piece of equipment, especially for ghost hunting. Especially if you're trying to, like, do like, Sears serious ghost hunting and, like, debunking things.

[Christine]

Because.

[Em]

Because if someone says, like, oh, there's always this cold draft that comes by, it's like, okay, well, this heat signature shows it's coming straight from that area, which happens to be an air vent or something. So. Yeah.

[Christine]

And I feel like also it's cool when you're somebody or when you're somewhere like the Queen Mary, where the boil room is completely empty. There's not an employee down there. There's nothing's actively running. It's just completely left alone.

[Em]

So that just still.

[Christine]

Completely stick? Well, yeah, still. Not still enough for my liking, but supposed to be very still. And then you have this thing and you're like, what is back there? And, like, you can see the shape of a body in the dark. And it's. Oh, my God, it's unsettling. So, yeah, I'm sure that probably also does not translate when we show it on stage, but yeah, this is a great point. Let's put it on socials and a video and see if anybody can, you know, is interested. Is intrigued.

[Em]

Intrigued. Well, so they decided that they were going to come in and bring obviously normal cameras to film it, but they also brought in a thermal camera to see if they could find any heat signatures on the things that are being thrown. If, like, body temperature had recently grabbed the things that are being thrown.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Em]

And so another thing is, they did not tell the housemates that they brought in a thermal camera because they wanted to try to catch them. Because the whole point is, like, we came here to. To prove you guys wrong and, like, debunk.

[Christine]

So you can't let them get ahead of the story. Okay.

[Em]

Yeah. So the hope was that they could use this camera to see, like, if any. If there were fingerprints left on the items that were being thrown.

[Christine]

Oh, that's so smart.

[Em]

And weirdly, the crew discovered that the items being thrown had no warm fingerprints on them, but the whole item was hot, which doesn't make a lot of sense.

[Christine]

I wonder if it could be somebody holding it in their fist.

[Em]

Yes. If it were like a small rock, maybe. But they were also finding it on, like, huge Steak knives. Oh.

[Christine]

And the whole thing was. Oh, yikes. Okay, that's. I had again, only thought of the rocks for some godforsaken reason I can't remember.

[Em]

I think you're shutting yourself off from the true other danger, clearly. Well, so these items were being thrown and then checked for their heat signature. And they looked perfectly, evenly heated up across the entire surface. And one camera operator even said that it looked like they'd been heated in a microwave and then thrown with tongs. So that way there was no differentiation in it.

[Christine]

You imagine you, like, put on glasses, you see like a demon with tongs, like, hot, hot, hot. Like, taking it out of the microwave. I mean, it's just like an insane visual.

[Em]

Also, like, using tongs as the middleman for your projectile. Like, can you imagine, like, the sport of darts if you use tongs instead of your hands?

[Christine]

Think about how much more damage that could do if you chuck steak knife with extra. Extra leverage. I. I'm glad that this demon is nice enough not to actually stab anyone or that the rules are such that nobody can get stabbed, because a microwave knife seems like one of the worst.

[Em]

Ways to go, but also maybe one of the better ways to go, because since it's warmed up, like now, it's going to cut in like butter. You know what I mean? Like, it's cleaner slice.

[Christine]

Maybe it'll cauterize, I guess. Depends on how hot it is, you know?

[Em]

Oh, yeah. It's like, do you. It's another do you take it out or leave it in situation. It's like, well, is it cauterizing from the inside? And now I'm okay. I don't know.

[Christine]

I don't know. I think yes. The answer, I think, is yes.

[Em]

Everyone else weigh in. I, as a medical professional. Well, while there, the crew endured quite a lot of poltergeist activity, which, by the way, we're talking about, like, the heat signatures of these thrown knives. We're not even talking about the fact that they walked into a house that was just having knives thrown everywhere and.

[Christine]

Then they stuck around throwing. Right? Yes, good point, good point. That's. That's where we're all jaded about the knives throwing themselves. Yeah.

[Em]

And. And I'd be worried, too, because I'd be like, if it is the roommates pulling a hoax on everybody, like, they don't know me. Like, I'm more likely to actually get hurt. True.

[Christine]

You're like my walk into a trap or something.

[Em]

Yeah, yeah. Well, so they endured a lot of activity, and this includes there's a whole list now for you of like things that this crew had to deal with. Their electrical gear freaking out. New items would appear in front of them as opposed to like this, the steak knives and the glass. Now they were getting like coins and scissors appearing out of nowhere. Imagine scissors flying at you.

[Christine]

Scissors is bad. But they really did like not build the tension properly. Like if you had started with coins, you know, gravel coins, and then like up to nine scissors knives. You see where I'm going? It's like coins really like also like.

[Em]

After shards of glass and bullets, I give me a startle way. Give me your dime.

[Christine]

Yeah, give me a dime.

[Em]

Go to.

[Christine]

I need to go to Coney. Coney Island.

[Em]

They also experience flower vases smashing behind them out of nowhere. Just like exploding.

[Christine]

That's alarming.

[Em]

Rocks again, constantly being pelted at them. Batteries throwing themselves into walls next to them. Which is a heavy sound, by the way. If you've ever heard a battery drop.

[Christine]

Batteries are not something to be thrown, children.

[Em]

That's a full blown projectile. It feels equivalent to a bullet. I feel like if you put a battery in a gun, it's gonna give the same effect as a bullet. You know what?

[Christine]

If you put a microwave knife in a gun.

[Em]

Then that's technically a bow. Like an arch, an archer.

[Christine]

Is it technically a bow? Weigh in everybody, if that.

[Em]

I feel like a bow and arrow is just a sharper gun, you know?

[Christine]

Really? That's what a bayonet is.

[Em]

Oh, well, no, that's both. That's a bow. That's an. That's an art. That's an arrow and a bullet.

[Christine]

No, it's a knife and knife and a bullet. Because it's not. You're not. There's no bow and arrow. How. Why are you trying to include archery in this? You know how I feel about archery.

[Em]

Because an arrow and a knife are both sharp and pointy.

[Christine]

So what?

[Em]

They do the same thing. They both stab you. I'm making perfect sense here.

[Christine]

But one comes off of the item, which is a bow.

[Em]

Oh, okay. Well, by that definition then yes, it would be more of a knife, I guess.

[Christine]

Wow, that was. I won that argument real easy. I thought we were gonna have a much longer back and forth.

[Em]

No, I don't care enough. I think you're right.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Em]

And also you made a good point too. So you. Then I guess you also made a good point. What else? The flower pot. Blah, blah, blah. A bayonet, I guess. No.

[Christine]

Compound bow.

[Em]

Yeah, here's a. Here's a creepy one. While Loading their equipment into a van. A knife was thrown at their car. So even from ew, it's no longer just inside the house either. It's, like, in the yard. Shit's getting thrown.

[Christine]

So even when you're not inside, it's, like, pissed off that you're even there. Yeah, I don't know.

[Em]

But then it. That also makes me wonder. I'm like, oh, well, I guess, is it a roommate who just, like, wants you off the property? Like, that feels like they could have gotten away with it. No one was looking. Tools flew into the garage roof, which feels terrifying for some reason, instead of them just flying across the room going up. Freaks me out.

[Christine]

Yeah, I don't like that.

[Em]

Especially when multiple are doing it at the same time. It's like they've all decided they're just gonna drop at any moment. Like, we don't. We don't talk about what happens after it goes up into the roof. Do you just, like, do this and just, like, wait every second?

[Christine]

Do they mean, like, inside the garage?

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Or like, on the outside of the. Oh, inside. Oh, oh, like up to the rafters and stuff?

[Em]

Yeah, like, they just fly up and that's, like, horrible. At what moment do you drop?

[Christine]

They're just, like, on the ceiling. And you're just, like, waiting for a pitchfork or, sorry, a trident to fall down and kill you.

[Em]

Okay. Officially, you never go in the garage because something's going to never know. But even if it didn't drop from the ceiling, I guess anything on it, on a shelf could just fly at you. I don't know.

[Christine]

Anything sharp. Yeah, I don't like that.

[Em]

I could not tolerate this anxiety. I just could not do it. Rocks would teleport onto other sides of walls, which we talked about last time. A beer mug. Does that mean like a. Yeah, like a stein.

[Christine]

Beer mug. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Em]

It was thrown through the window. And then knives and shards of glass were thrown at them. That. The shards of glass came from the window. So a mug.

[Christine]

Jesus.

[Em]

And then the window shards of glass got thrown at them. They heard scratching in the ceilings. And then even more messages appeared, made out of rocks that said, no tv, no cameras. Pig camera. And then on one of the guys, microphones in little pebbles. They. They had the word go written out, like, get out of here. Oh.

[Christine]

Oh, no. No t. No tv. No cameras. Pig camera.

[Em]

Pig camera. Yeah.

[Christine]

This is creepy.

[Em]

Two other reporters came to visit during this time, and one had just been collecting seashells at the beach, which sounds like the exact opposite kind of time. Than this is. She had just been collecting seashells and mid interviewing. Mid interviewing the housemates. An exact same seashell that she had just been collecting at the beach materialized out of thin air and dropped onto the table she was sitting at. Ew.

[Christine]

Ew Knows about your outside life.

[Em]

Yeah. And knows who you are before you walk in.

[Christine]

Gross.

[Em]

She then got this, like, weird electric jolt from her microphone, and she saw items lift off the table and fly off by themselves. So she saw them go. Boom. Whoops. Weird. Another reporter came, and she. She was the one who witnessed the mug flying through the window. And apparently it flew through. Originally, I thought that the mug flew through the window, and then shards of glass from the window came with it.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

Apparently there was already a hole in the window because the window had already previously shattered from this ghost. And then a beer mug flew perfectly through the hole. That's even worse.

[Christine]

That's actually great. That's like some sort of barstool college sporting event. It feels like, you know, it sounds.

[Em]

Like you have to have incredible accuracy. Imagine them on the archery team. Imagine.

[Christine]

God, imagine.

[Em]

But no, like, especially, like, it was apparently, like, the perfect sized hole. Just made it through. Forget it. Okay. After this happened, the beer thing, the reporter and the housemates backed up against the wall because they were like, okay, I want to get, like, a clear view of everything in this room. And they also didn't want to feel anything like getting thrown past them or behind them. So they just wanted their backs against the wall. And once the backs were against the wall, then all of a sudden, they still felt something on their neck, Even though that shouldn't have happened. And when they turned around, rocks were raining down from their neck.

[Christine]

No way. Thank you very much.

[Em]

Also around this time, a paranormal investigator came through. His name was Stephen Bishop. And I didn't really keep anything about his experience in here. First of all, no one really talked about. They just said that he kind of appeared, which feels like what ghost hunters seem to do. They just arrived.

[Christine]

It just kind of seemed to roll on up. Yeah.

[Em]

But he also was sounding a little Zach Bagan z to me. He was saying, like. Like he could. He could feel the residual energy, and it felt like slime. Like he was just. It felt like he was being very flowery. And I don't know if these, like, rough and tumble kind of biker guys were all about that. It's like, okay, residual energy. Like, get the knives out of here.

[Christine]

They're like, we have a baby living here. Okay, no. No more of this slime talk. Figure this Out.

[Em]

Apparently this entity seemed to know if a camera was pointing in a certain direction, because even though it loved to throw things, it would. It still somehow knew wherever the cameras were pointing and the activity would always almost get captured. It was just out of frame every time.

[Christine]

That's so infuriating. Seriously, that's like every one of these stories, and it, like, drives me nuts because.

[Em]

Tease me. O.

[Christine]

And it's Tease me. Oh. Because I believe it. Because I feel like I've seen things like this happen where technology glitches, right? When something.

[Em]

Yeah. It's always perfect timing.

[Christine]

And it's. We've had that happen even on our investigations. And so it's like, it's not even frustrating in the way that I'm sure a lot of skeptics see it as, like, oh, again, you just don't capture it. To me, it's frustrating. Like, no, yeah, it happens like the camera cuts out. I don't know why, but it happens.

[Em]

At the Whaley house, we still don't know if we're gonna, like, find a way to put the footage out there, but at the Whaley house, something really scary happened. And I remember half the footage after that was Christine on her camera just going, I really hope we got that. I really hope we got that. I really hope we got that. Because it was scary. And we were just convinced there's no way that the camera caught it or it would have happened just out of frame or it was too dark. And we did get it. Yay. But there are so many times where something happens, and even though it's scary to us because we were there, it just doesn't translate on camera. And no one's gonna care about that clip, you know? So.

[Christine]

Yeah, it just doesn't hit the same.

[Em]

Yeah. So that was happening non stop. It was almost like, oh, we're here for a little segment of yours. Well, yeah, you have nothing to show for it.

[Christine]

Oh, my God. That would just drive me nuts.

[Em]

For example, which you can still watch this segment on YouTube. So, like, if anyone wants to go watch. If you want to watch it, it's there. But one of the examples that I have is that the camera is facing the kitchen. It's like sitting on, like, a countertop or on a tripod in the middle of the kitchen. And just out of frame, you hear bam. And even, like, with such a force that the tripod shakes and the camera gets, like, jilted. And when people run in and grab the camera to, like, point at what happened, there was this. This big ass Wrench that just got thrown against, like, the cupboard right next to the camera. Right next to it.

[Christine]

Outrageously, annoyingly frustrating and terrifying.

[Em]

Which part of me feels like, what if it was trying to throw it at the camera and, like, knock the camera off its tripod or something? But then it has such good accuracy. It clearly just went.

[Christine]

It seems like it almost knows what it's. That it's in frame. Yeah.

[Em]

Well, from another camera's angle, from a different room, you can see that nobody else was in the room. You just. You can see people run into the room.

[Christine]

What the fuck was that? So there wasn't, like, another. Yeah, okay, that's validating, I guess.

[Em]

Yeah. So unfortunately, despite days of being there and hundreds of hours of footage. Been there, all the activity was just off camera. And there were so many like that where you can hear the sound. Or like, there was. They were filming, like, at the table, like, all the people eating dinner. And then everyone hears a. A bang, like, right next to the camera. And you see everyone go, oh, see, there he went. And then all of a sudden, there's like, a knife against the wall. Like, it's like, that's wild. It's so frustrating. So anyway, you would hear, like, a slam, and the housemates would react, but you would never see the actual item. After a while, the crew was so frustrated about this that one of them screamed, come on. Like, give me a fucking break.

[Christine]

That's. Yeah, that's me. I get it.

[Em]

And. And out of frame, a stone flew onto the table. So again, it was just like. How about out of frame again?

[Christine]

It's like, oh, yeah, try me. Ugh.

[Em]

They shouted. The camera crew shouted again at the ghost and said, at least do one on camera if you're gonna do this. And moments later, a camera somewhat caught footage. So, like, it was kind of like, I'll throw you a bone. I'm still gonna piss you off.

[Christine]

Did they throw a bone?

[Em]

No, that'd be. Then it's like, now it's a murder.

[Christine]

Now I feel like we're being threatened.

[Em]

Yes. No, this was because they had that little baby living there. There. This was a baby bottle that fell off of a microwave. But for. It was just for, like, one fucking frame. As the bottle is falling off, someone walks in front of the camera. And so you just see it mid fall.

[Christine]

Ooh, I have, like, those chills up my scalp that I used to get when we first started the podcast. I. You know, that makes me just think of, like, that it has so much precise control that it can make sure. One frame gets in. You know what I mean? Like, that's just so weird how it can manipulate everything at once.

[Em]

It, like, validates the theory of that they know space and time in a way we never will because, like, it's able to feel any second. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's so right as someone's walking by, and you can see there's nobody else in the frame. So in theory, like, it's a good enough clip where it's like, well, no one else was there. And there were two cameras.

[Christine]

You wish you got the full thing. Yeah.

[Em]

So you see it falling, but only after someone's walked away.

[Christine]

I gotcha.

[Em]

Moments after that, just to piss us right off, the cameraman started switching out camera batteries. And once the camera he was switching the batteries out of after he turned it off and it had no more batteries in it, all of a sudden, a piece of glass flies by him in the camera and lands right in where the frame of the camera would have been.

[Christine]

See that? Now that has happened to us where we pause to just order some food or turn up, change our batteries, or we realize our battery just died. And then something happens, and it's like, you have got to be kidding me.

[Em]

It's so frustrating. And no one believes you or if they believe you.

[Christine]

Such a constant thing, too.

[Em]

We have been very lucky to be in now multiple haunted houses together. And we've gotten activity at every location, but it's. There's nothing more infuriating when there's not a camera on it. And, like, I'm so. I'm so anal when we get into a house that, like, okay, we have to set up the cameras immediately because there's not a moment to.

[Christine]

It's very.

[Em]

We come up with, like, a setup for all the cameras, and we come up with, like, a schedule for battery changes. I'm like, we cannot let a second go by.

[Christine]

No activity. And yet somehow it still happens every now and then. But we're very. But like, you're right. Like, we've learned our lesson the hard way a lot of times. Times.

[Em]

Yeah. The only other time during their say that they got any footage was similar to the bottle thing where, like, you kind of saw it fall, but not the full fall, just half of it. And it was a bullet falling onto the ground.

[Christine]

Good. A baby bottle and a bullet. Wow, that's just really poignant, huh?

[Em]

I know. But wherever the bot the bullet was falling from. So for all we know, it rolled off a table. For all we know, it got thrown. Maybe it manifested out of thin air and just dropped. But it started right above the camera. So all you saw was it fall calling.

[Christine]

Wow. Yeah. So you could just say, oh, somebody like, held it above it. God.

[Em]

Yeah. So it's like we gave you kind of footage, but it's footage that no one will really care.

[Christine]

Yeah, you can. Skeptics still won't believe you. Yeah.

[Em]

Despite that, after they left, the crew went back to Channel seven and they were fucking freaked out. They were like, we saw so much.

[Christine]

Shit and then so much shit happening. Damn.

[Em]

And then they were like, oh, here's all the, like the hundreds of hours of footage. We got nothing.

[Christine]

And so there's a baby bottle. It fell off the microwave.

[Em]

It's like there was a bullet, but it looks like we dropped it. And even though they didn't really get anything, the viewers loved the piece, I think, because everyone in it was so. First of all, the crew was so convinced.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

And freaked out. But then all of the tenants were just so jaded and over it, so it seemed real, like it was legit, that they would. You would hear them go, the mattresses turn themselves upside down on the wall again. And then the roommates would go, here we go. Like, they did not look like they were in it for the fame. And when the, like, OG Channel 7 crew left, they had two people stay behind to get a couple extra shots. And so keep that in mind that there. There was like a skeleton crew that stayed behind to get extra shots. So at the Same time, Channel 7 is airing the segment. And I guess these extra shots that they were filming was like, in case there was an update. But so Channel seven errors this segment. They ended up having to do another segment right away with an update from this backup crew finding something as this was airing. What are the odds? It's like so poorly timed of like, oh, this is airing. And actually we immediately have to do another update because while it was on tv, this fucking happened.

[Christine]

Oops.

[Em]

The backup crew got a lid flying in the air, like a pot lid. But upon further investigation, someone on the in, I think it was an editor, they saw that there was a cabinet's glass in the frame and they saw a reflection in the glass that seemed to show somebody in the room with them. And this led people to suspect that it must be one of the housemates throwing an item from behind the camera. So the only person in the house at the time was Kirsty. And what are the odds as soon as the pot lid gets thrown, Kirsty walked into frame being like, what was that. So immediately people are like, kirsty, what the. All of a sudden people are like, it must be Kirsty. But Kirsty denies everything. She said that she was folding laundry, she heard a big ass sound, and she walked by the cameraman to go, what was that? Later it was said that Kirsty. So yeah, that becomes like a whole thing of like, was it a hoax? Did Kirsty get away with it this whole time? But, like, you would feel like a.

[Christine]

Linchpin in the argument, like, skeptic versus yeah.

[Em]

And I would be like, first of all, if I were Kirsty and I did this was a stunt, I would have slowed my roll because I would have been like, they're literally airing it right now. We got away with it. Like, don't do anything else. Right?

[Christine]

Like, why now throw another knife. I mean, unless you're like compulsively doing it for some reason and you can't. Can't control yourself or, you know, some other reason. But yeah, it doesn't make sense logically really.

[Em]

So Kirsty did deny everything, but it ended up becoming this polarizing thing of, did Kirsty throw everything or not? Later it was said that Kirsty confessed to Channel 7 that she was the one throwing the items. But that was out of context because after this segment came out and people were freaking the fuck out, and then this update came out. So now it's like a series of what's going on in this house. They were getting hounded with calls and they were just like, so fed up with the press, they didn't want anything more to do with it. And I guess the producer of Channel 7 kept calling her for a quote because she was like in the middle of this hoax controversy. So at some point on the phone, she said, this is a quote. Say what you want, I did it. Is that what you want me to say? Just leave me alone. God.

[Christine]

Okay, so that's not even. Come on, people.

[Em]

So. And remember, Channel 7 is a very National Enquirer tabloidy thing. So as soon as they got a quote like that, they're just gonna run with it.

[Christine]

You can take it out of context at that point. Yeah.

[Em]

This led Channel 7 to determine and publicly announce that the case was a hoax and Kirsty was responsible and there was no poltergeist. And it totally killed interest for anyone who actually might have been able to help him. But also, if anyone wanted to help them, housemates were so hurt by the segment because they're like, we let you into our home for A week. We let you, like, see some pretty vulnerable stuff going on.

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah.

[Em]

So they were officially, like, fuck you, press. We don't want anyone approaching this house. However, in the perfect timing of the cosmos, this happens to be the exact moment as they're saying, we don't want anything to do with anyone else coming back to our house. Two people are on their way to their house, and these two people, their names are Tony Healy and Paul Cropper.

[Christine]

Okay?

[Em]

They are paranormal experts slash cryptozoologist. Crap. There's supernatural.

[Christine]

I'm feeling it. Okay.

[Em]

Remember I told you that the clergy had been here? The three separate priests.

[Christine]

How could I forget? Thanks, priests.

[Em]

One of them ends it up doing, like, a radio talk show about his experience. Because, remember, this hoax is, like, taking the world by storm. So this priest is like, I'm one of the three. I can tell you it was real. It's like, this is my. My moment.

[Christine]

Get it, priest? Whatever.

[Em]

Honestly, get it, priest? There was a. Yeah, a radio show that he was doing, and he was like, I know they're calling it a hoax, but, like, I saw, like, it was real, and it's a real shame.

[Christine]

Their defense, too. That's kind of nice.

[Em]

And these two supernatural experts, they heard this radio piece, and they were like, well, we're obviously going over there to see it ourselves. Obviously.

[Christine]

Immediately.

[Em]

I love that this is a time and age where you could just get in a car and drive to a stranger's house. Like, your phone anxiety could never but imagine approaching a person's home unexpected.

[Christine]

Okay. I think about this all the time, actually, because I listen to so many podcasts, and so many of them have reporters who do that, and you listen as they knock on the door, and then, like, they'll open just a screen, and then they'll talk over it and say, like, at this point, a woman in her 40s opens the door, and she doesn't seem very comfortable with me being here. You know, it's like, every time I. My palms are sweating so profusely, and I'm like, you. Like, I studied journalism, and there's a reason that I failed so dramatically at it. And it wasn't my lack of writing.

[Em]

And you got an F in approaching screen doors.

[Christine]

It was literally social anxiety. You know, I was just like, how am I supposed to harass my, you know, neighbors like college classmates, let alone politicians on Capitol Hill? Like, are you kidding me? No. Not happening.

[Em]

You know, it's kind of a wonder that even as kids, I was able to go to someone's door and just knock on it unexpectedly.

[Christine]

Oh my God, I did so much.

[Em]

I'm here now it to play I.

[Christine]

Sold rocks that I pretended were like, I. I defrauded so many people by knocking on their doors. Like, maybe this is karmic justice. I don't know. But I know that I, I used to do some really unsafe, unhinged things when my mother was not aware, like the going to random neighborhoods and knocking on doors and stuff. So this is a newer phenomenon for me that it, that it haunts me.

[Em]

But it feels like it's a, a nod to yesteryear though, because this was a time when everyone was just knocking on their doors, I guess.

[Christine]

Right? Like maybe it's just a thing.

[Em]

I mean, that did happen. I, I think we're, I feel like we're talking about it. Like it was so, so, so far, long ago. But I remember as a kid, like, people just knocked on your door and.

[Christine]

The door wasn't that weird at all. Yeah.

[Em]

But now when people knock on the door, you're like, shut the up. Like, don't.

[Christine]

You're like, are you. Because you're more like, hey, let me open the door and get. And oh, he was wearing a suit. That's why.

[Em]

It's because my window's open and they can obviously see me. And now it's like I'm obligated to answer the door.

[Christine]

Right? Right. So now socially, I don't, I don't. I must get kidnapped now. If that's what's happening.

[Em]

At least my last words were, he's in a suit.

[Christine]

I feel you. Listen, I feel you. I feel that very hardcore. Which is why I hide whenever anyone is at my door.

[Em]

But no, I remember when people would just knock on the door and my mom would just go, oh, I wonder who that is. And it was just normal. And now it's like, it's either Amazon or why would you answer the door?

[Christine]

Or like something alarming. Yeah, I wouldn't open the door unless you're expecting someone.

[Em]

I remember the, like, the common phrase in my house was like, who could that be? And you would just open the door and whoever was there, it's now time to entertain them or time to have a conversation.

[Christine]

Come on in.

[Em]

Yeah, I can't just. The world is so different now. If I went and knocked on someone's door, any of my friends doors, they'd be like, did we have plans? What are you doing here?

[Christine]

Actually, I would be like, is everything okay? Like, I'd be like, why didn't you call me? Like, I don't know. Or text me.

[Em]

Well, so these two random people, might I add, who are, you know, to their belief, they are spiritual experts or supernatural experts.

[Christine]

This is a good. This is what you do in journalism, too. You don't let them know. I mean, it depends on who you're interviewing. But you don't let them know necessarily ahead of time because you don't want to spook them or you don't, you know. So, I mean, I can see. Yeah, yeah. To trick you or whatever. This could be an advantage. Yeah, I could see.

[Em]

Well, they just got in their car and drove. It was like 45 minutes away because apparently they were in the moment. Their fixation was cryptozoology, and they were about to go on a hunt for a yaoi, which I have not covered yet, I don't think.

[Christine]

Oh, okay.

[Em]

But they were about to do a yaoi hunt and listening to this radio show, they were like, this house is like 45 minutes away. Which, by the way, without Google Maps. How did you know that? Like, what are you doing?

[Christine]

Maps?

[Em]

Yeah, but you do. You look at a map and like, how do you know, minute by minute, how long it would take? You know what I mean?

[Christine]

You would just learn it like, oh, this to this town. To this town's about a half hour. Add a few minutes. I don't know.

[Em]

Yeah. Couldn't be me.

[Christine]

I look in the Bible and go.

[Em]

For all I know, that's nine hours away.

[Christine]

Right. Like, I couldn't do it. Don't get me wrong. I just. I just. I guess that's how things went back then.

[Em]

When I invent time travel, as you know, that will be happening. It already has happened, actually.

[Christine]

It has.

[Em]

I can't wait for the reality show where we put modern day people in the past and make them just live like a normal person. That's gonna be such a good TV show.

[Christine]

So good. I would. I want to watch that right now also.

[Em]

What is modern day if time is a continuum, you know?

[Christine]

Oh, my God, my head.

[Em]

Okay, so anyway, Jesus Christ. Tony Healy and Paul Cropper are trying to get to this house. Paul Cropper, I've learned, calls himself the Cropster. Love that.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Em]

He is everyone's dad, just so you know.

[Christine]

Y.

[Em]

So they call themselves supernatural experts, which they are. They do, like, really, like, professional lectures on parapsychological stuff. So, I mean, I'm gonna give them some credit. At least in that world. They're. They know what they're talking about. They drop everything from their yowie hunt and Just go to this house to talk to the tenants. When they get there, the housemates post Channel seven, tarnishing their reputation. The housemates are like, get the off our property. I think they called them vultures because they assumed they were part of the press.

[Christine]

Yeah. Like swooping in. Yeah, yeah.

[Em]

And Tony and Paul, they're like, look, we. We're not part of the press. We're researchers. We just want to help. And they had actually not only been doing a yaoi hunt, but at the same time, they. They wear a lot of hats. They were on a yaoi hunt. And they were also writing a book together about poltergeists.

[Christine]

Oh, sure.

[Em]

And so it's you and me, pretty much.

[Christine]

Yeah, it is. It sounds a vaguely familiar.

[Em]

I'm the Cropster. I called it.

[Christine]

Thank God.

[Em]

So they show them, I think, some of their work that they're doing on poltergeists, like, most popular poltergeists in the area. And they're like, oh, your case.

[Christine]

They're not just like tabloids. Oh, sorry, go ahead.

[Em]

Oh, no, they were just going to show them the research and be like, your case seems very similar to this stuff that we've already studied. Yeah. So I guess that made them want to take it seriously. They, like you said, they were like, okay, so you're not part of the press. You're actually doing solid research. Sure, you can come in, go for it. And Tony and Paul ended up saying, for five days and nights, did you have underwear? Did you bring a toothbrush? I'm just.

[Christine]

Well, they were going on a snipe hunt already, so maybe they already had their car back full of their double bags.

[Em]

Maybe they brought it all with them. So this is a quote from Paul, the cropster. He says, by the time we arrived, this ghost, remember, it's been on Channel 7 twice. It was doing radio shows. People were talking about this, so it's a big deal. Paul said, by the time we arrived, it had become Australia's most publicized pulse case since the Guy Ra ghost, which I covered right before this.

[Christine]

I forgot they call it a pulse.

[Em]

A pulse? Yeah. Far from a bunch of drunken layabouts, as some of the media tried to portray them, the residents. The residents struck us as competent people, and it was clear that above all else, they simply wanted to be believed. Another. Another quote about their time there is. For five days, it obliged us by showering us with pebbles, knives, bullets, and anything else which came into its ectoplasmic grip. While there, about 30 objects were thrown at or fell on Tony and Paul and Sometimes after just being put back in that box of frequent flyers, remember they had an item or a box of items, they would throw it down, they would throw things in the box. Seconds later they'd be flying across the room again. Stones would rain on Paul. Another time a bullet fell on him when he was at the table. Other times a brass spark plug slammed onto the table in front of them. Piles of pebbles would be found sitting on their cars, which I think is so strange. Like now it's piling on their. It's piling on their stuff and outside of the house.

[Christine]

Yeah, I don't like that at all. That would make me really uncomfy.

[Em]

It feels like it's getting stronger in some way to me too. On days when a lot of pebbles were found inside because it was gravel from their driveway. So when pebbles were found inside, they would look outside and the gravel was gone. Like there was even a quote from one of them saying it was as if someone vacuumed up all the gravel and like created ditches in their yard that there were so many stones missing.

[Christine]

So it was like literally using those stones.

[Em]

It said vacuumed by the thousands was the quote.

[Christine]

What the f. And like, obviously if this were. I think if this were Kirsty, you would see her out there digging big trenches in the fucking yard. I don't know.

[Em]

Big fucking bucket of rocks with a.

[Christine]

Wheelbarrow, like, come on.

[Em]

And if they're saying vacuumed by the thousands, you have to assume that it's. Yeah, it's enough that someone's going to notice. Like, at least even if you're doing a handful at a time, you got to be going out there a lot.

[Christine]

A labor intensive situation.

[Em]

A friend of the housemates came over one time and actually claims to have seen the poltergeist itself outside by the gravel, potentially quote, reloading.

[Christine]

Ew. Who said they saw this?

[Em]

A friend that came to the house. Apparently they were like, I just saw something out by the gravel.

[Christine]

What was it? They didn't say what it looked like.

[Em]

They said it was a jet black solid orb flying away from the driveway very fast. But behind it there was like two feet of a stream of gravel following it.

[Christine]

So it was like picking it up. Like an Airstream ew.

[Em]

Which is so creepy because that maybe that answers our question about like, does it blip into another room or does it travel there? But you could see it all floating on its own as if they had some sort of like spell on the items and it traveled just with it.

[Christine]

Like a wind tunnel or something. Yeah, I wonder if that was something that only that guy saw. Like it was like an accidental. Like he saw something he wasn't supposed to. You know what I mean? Maybe the normal eye couldn't see it. It.

[Em]

Imagine if that jet black orb turned around and all of a sudden went, don't say a thing. So on multiple occasions, there was also this bottle opener in the house that would go missing and when it reappeared, it would always come back newly polished.

[Christine]

What?

[Em]

Which, like, I feel like, like, what is that? Are you trying to do me a favor? Yeah, like, I. I don't want to ever use this ever again.

[Christine]

Passive aggressive or passive question mark? I don't. It's passive in general. I don't like, just tell me what you want.

[Em]

You know when a dog like ends up just stealing like an item and now it's just their item?

[Christine]

Yeah, that feels like you can have it.

[Em]

Just take the bottle opener, you know, polish it all you want.

[Christine]

Clearly care a lot more about how shiny it is than we do.

[Em]

Also. Yeah, it's kind of a fuck you. It's like, oh, I used it one time and I have to re. Fucking polish it. Okay. Like, thanks. So Tony and Paul would hear rocks hit the roof and then scatter all over the kitchen. Moments later, AKA teleport through the ceiling. Like they're hearing bam on the roof. And then all of a sudden there's rocks scattered on the floor.

[Christine]

So weird.

[Em]

And one time a house friend told them, poltergeists don't hurt people. You have nothing to worry about because they don't hurt people. That's like one of the rules of poltergeist. They don't hurt people. And then all of a sudden, pliers were floating through the air. And when she went to grab them out of the air, it whacked her on the wrist.

[Christine]

It was like, don't tell me what to do. Yeah, you don't know my powers.

[Em]

I hate it. And to get as much evidence as possible, one of the housemates, Andrew, he tried reading from the Bible that one of the priests left after he came to visit.

[Christine]

But he was where they ripped out all the pages.

[Em]

Yes, but also, like, he was apparently doing it to piss off the ghosts so that way they are would get. There would be more evidence, just like aggravated, which, like, why didn't you do that during the Channel 7 segment? You know what I mean? Like, just when there's cameras, whatever.

[Christine]

Maybe they did, maybe they did, maybe they did.

[Em]

But the part I saw, at least online, was that he did this when Paul and Tony were here. But when doing this, the goal was to piss it off so that way they could record as much evidence as possible and activity would pick up. When he read the Bible, he actually. There was like an off room that nobody used in the house. And apparently everyone who ever went in there said it felt really fucking creepy, as if, like the ghosts, that was their room. So he would go into that room with all the lights off and read the Bible.

[Christine]

I feel like everybody. I feel like every old house has. Has a room like that.

[Em]

What's your room? Yeah.

[Christine]

Oops.

[Em]

Which is wild because I feel so good in that room.

[Christine]

I just can't even look in there, really.

[Em]

I've taken full ass sleeps in that room.

[Christine]

I glance in there every time and I'm like, nobody.

[Em]

I. When it's. When the sun is setting, something's off in that room for sure. When there's like.

[Christine]

When did you nap in there?

[Em]

When we were prepping for the show.

[Christine]

Oh, I forgot about that. I was in such a.

[Em]

Because you were the. You said the studio was, like, too messy for me to sleep in, but I also want to, like, sleep in your bed. And I wasn't going to get in Leona's crib, so all that was left kinda.

[Christine]

And there was like an hour left of our night to sleep, so we might as well sleep somewhere. Yeah, Okay. I recall.

[Em]

I think I actually picked that room to sleep in because I assumed I would be. Be uncomfortable and I'd wake up faster so I wouldn't actually sleep through working.

[Christine]

Oh, well, maybe they made you feel right at home. I've never felt negative energy. I just get, like, creeped out, that's all.

[Em]

There's definitely something creepy in there sometimes, but I think when I went in there, I was so tired I didn't even care. And I even told them, I was like, do whatever you want. Don't touch me. I said something out loud. I made some sort of proclamation where I was like, you can do whatever you want, but you cannot physically touch me. And then I just went to bed.

[Christine]

It is a comfy futon too. That might be part of it.

[Em]

It's a good futon. Let me see. Just to aggravate the ghost. Oh. So he's reading the Bible and he goes into the dark room, which may be the ghost room, starts reading the Bible to piss them off. And a bullet and a shot glass at the same time both fly around the room. And when they land, someone touches them and they're like, hot to the touch.

[Christine]

Oh, they're Microwave.

[Em]

Another. Blah, blah, blah. Oh, and eventually they stopped using this tactic of reading the Bible when a battery flew too close to the baby and it was like testing. It felt like this ghost was finally.

[Christine]

Testing, pushing its limits. Yeah, no, no.

[Em]

Yeah, I think because it was like, if you want to read the Bible to piss me off, then I'm gonna piss you off. Now I'm throwing at your kid. So they stopped reading the Bible after that. But another time, Kirsty said, she was just like, you don't know what's gonna happen in this house. You never know when it's gonna do something. And immediately a knife went flying into the room.

[Christine]

I was like, that? Damn right.

[Em]

So it was definitely. It feels like this thing for sure. Intelligently responds to people.

[Christine]

Yeah. It sounds like it knows what it's doing. Yeah.

[Em]

And while there, Paul and Tony witnessed at least 37 incidents. And on their last day there, they heard a sound outside. And everyone watched a light bulb slam onto the concrete and knocked. Not shatter.

[Christine]

Like just not shatter.

[Em]

Slammed onto the concrete, did not shatter. And it was like a weird looking light bulb. It was like a weird yellow color. Everyone in the house was like, I've never seen that light bulb.

[Christine]

They didn't even know where it came from. Ew.

[Em]

Which is like. So is it now haunting other areas? And it stole that light bulb, did it? Is that light bulb from the past? And it brought it back to, like, is it from a previous owner? And like it just like appeared from time and space? I don't know.

[Christine]

Is it from hell?

[Em]

Is it. Is it Satan's light bulb? Is it the devil's light?

[Christine]

Satan's light bulb?

[Em]

The devil's light. So they all go into the house because they're like, that's fucking crazy. More gravel is thrown across the room and a crucifix slams onto the table.

[Christine]

Now we're talking.

[Em]

Paul and Tony were the last people to officially observe this poltergeist. And only a few months later, the housemates did finally fucking move. By the way, they were like, I'm out of here.

[Christine]

Good.

[Em]

As soon as they left the first. I love that Tony and Paul were here to catch some real activity. And then they find this like mysterious light bulb and a crucifix slam on the table. And then they went, well, time to go.

[Christine]

We're looking for a snipe out in the forest. Or who's a. What's it? What are they looking for?

[Em]

A yaoi.

[Christine]

Yaoi. So we gotta go.

[Em]

They were like. And just as quick as we appeared, we Are gone.

[Christine]

Thank you so much for your time. Goodbye.

[Em]

So then months later, the housemates move, and as soon as they left, the activity also seemed to stop. And nobody has reported any haunting since.

[Christine]

Since the room. Since all the roomies left, yes.

[Em]

So it's thought that they. The attachment came from them before they left, though. This is wild. The landlord had some beef with them, and he tried suing them for property damages to the house. But then they were like, there. We literally have had knives thrown at us every day. Like, of course there's property damage to this house. Like, we couldn't patch the walls fast enough. A knife would just come right back. Back.

[Christine]

And weird, though, for both parties, because it's like, well, now what do you do? Like, someone has to fix it.

[Em]

Well, weirdly, like, I've never heard of a case like this. But thanks to the media coverage and how popular this ghost was, the judge had heard about this poltergeist, and I guess he was, like, also a believer in the spooky.

[Christine]

Oh, my God.

[Em]

And he straight up said the damage was not the housemaid's fault because it was a poltergeist. And that, wow. The landlord could not affect, evict them or sue them for property.

[Christine]

And that was season one, episode one of Judge Judy.

[Em]

And that's what you missed on Glee. While moving out, the landlord, I guess, also had security guards go and check the state of the house. Like, I guess while they. The housemates were in and out for the last week, he had security guards going to check the state of the house. And one of the security guards was actually interviewed in the segment. And he even said, like. Like a knife got thrown at his feet. Like, he was in there by himself and a knife through got thrown across the house. So even he believes it, which is pretty telling to me. I think that's like, pretty dope that he's like, even I saw something.

[Christine]

The security guard there on business only. Like, yeah, yeah.

[Em]

But then of course, there's like, the naysayers who are like, well, he just wanted his, like, five seconds of fame. He just said he saw something. Whatever. Okay, here are the theories as to this poltergeist. The first one is that maybe this house was haunted before the families even got there. Maybe they didn't bring it. The ghost was already there. There was a cleaning lady who came in in between tenants, and she said that the house always felt really creepy. It was oddly cold in the summer. The doors would open and close by themselves. And at some point, her or someone who was helping her clean like had to run out of the house because they were so freaked out by this place.

[Christine]

So it was bad already.

[Em]

And someone pointed out that the landlord had a family of seven and could have really used a bigger house like this one he was renting out to people, but he lived in a smaller house down the road. And so some people think maybe he knew it was haunted and chose to live somewhere smaller. I think that could also be like. Like you could do a back and forth really quick on that of like. Well, he probably just wanted to like, rent out the better house.

[Christine]

Yeah. Who knows? Yeah.

[Em]

But someone noted it of like, maybe he knew and didn't want to live there. But Dave and Jill, the one of the two couples who live there, Dave and Jill, they lived there first before Andrew and Kirsty moved in. And they never had any activity until Kirsty. She's always the center of the story, isn't she?

[Christine]

She seems to always walk in the room right at the right time. I'm not blaming her.

[Em]

I'm just saying it's very convenient.

[Christine]

Yeah. I'm just saying I think maybe she's unintentionally could have had something to do with this.

[Em]

The ghosts have picked a scapegoat and her name is Kirsty.

[Christine]

Yeah. Poor thing.

[Em]

So Dave and Jill, they were like, they kind of shut down that rumor of like, maybe it was haunted beforehand. Because even if the cleaning lady thought it was creepy, they were like, we literally lived here for like a year and nothing ever happened.

[Christine]

Maybe it was like creepy, but like their. Jill and Jack and Jill. What the are their names?

[Em]

Dave and Jill.

[Christine]

Dave and Jill. Maybe they just didn't have.

[Em]

Yeah. Open X factor.

[Christine]

Yeah. Or like that openness or acceptance of it or something that like, then Kirsty, maybe after the trauma of losing their friend, maybe like it just turned into a kind of perfect storm.

[Em]

Great point. That, like, maybe it was haunted, but it was just kind of like latently haunted.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

Until, like, someone could unlock it. Yeah.

[Christine]

Right.

[Em]

It's like Blaze and Alison moving into a house that's like very haunted, but they'll never see a damn thing.

[Christine]

They'll never see a damn thing. And then meanwhile we're like. Like there's just knives and shit flying.

[Em]

Through the air and then you and I walk in and now they're blaming it on us. It's like, wait a minute.

[Christine]

Sounds right.

[Em]

So that because Dave and Jill, they said that they never had any activity until Andrew and Kirsty showed up. That leads to the. The first theory that this might be a hoax because some thought that maybe the tenants, AKA Andrew and Kirsty, were doing this for clout or. I mean, they. Also because items were getting thrown around the house with a toddler there, and the toddler never got hurt. They were like, maybe it was one of the baby's parents who wouldn't dare to do that. Specifically, many thought that they were taping. This is like, what they think if this was a hoax, how it was happening. They thought that the items were being taped to the ceiling fans and then they would just flip the switch and let it just spin and items are just ricocheting across the fucking house. I mean, with a baby. So, like, that defeats the purpose of, like, hot knives. So that defeats the. The point that it would be one of the parents doing this. Like, you're not just gonna, like, let knives go flying around the house with your baby.

[Christine]

I mean, usually once you're baby proofing a house, like, knives taped to the ceiling fans are a no go. Like, that's at least what I've heard. I know it's controversial, but.

[Em]

Well, also because, like, maybe let's say it was Andrew or Kirsty or any of the adults.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

And they were just not aiming at the baby. You can't prevent that if you're doing it at random and just letting the ceiling fan decide. So that shut things down pretty quickly when people were like, oh, it's a hoax and this is how it's happening. People are like, that's. Then it's not any of them causing it. I don't know what to tell you. But on top of that, people actually tested out that theory of, like, taping things to a ceiling fan and just.

[Christine]

Letting the fan run for fun.

[Em]

They. They end do it with Leona in the room.

[Christine]

Yeah, right.

[Em]

They did test that out and just let the fan run. And whenever things shook off the fan and flew, it didn't really work. The trajectories didn't make sense. A lot of times the items would just shake, like, out of the tape and then just kind of fall instead of go flying.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

And nearly 20 people have been in this house investigating and have tried actively to debunk this. Someone would have either checked the fans or noticed that they were all falling from a fan.

[Christine]

From a fan and, like, clattering up there before falling and stuff. Yeah.

[Em]

Yeah. Paul was quoted saying, if the TV people were right and the whole situation was a setup, then why continue the show when Tony and I got there? Like, why would the ghosts keep doing this, we weren't reporters. They weren't getting any money or publicity from us. And yet the activity continued the whole time. So that was Paul in defense being like, this wasn't a hoax. And Tony was quoted saying, if it really wanted to hurt me, it could have embedded the knife in my back rather than hurl it past me. But the more that we saw, the more we understood that the res fury came at the smug, ill informed skeptics. So they were like, the longer we were there, the more we could see why these people were just pissed off at anyone thinking it was a hoax. Because this is so fucking real.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

So if it was a hoax, a lot of people thought, because that was kind of the theory of like, oh, it's a hoax and it's all of the residents doing this. There was the other theory that it's a hoax and not all the residents are involved or are in the know about this. And that led to people thinking, obviously this is all Kirsty's doing. Doing.

[Christine]

Oh, Kirsty.

[Em]

They thought that it must be her one, because she's the one who was home the most often because she was taking care of the baby, but taking care of the baby by throwing knives at it. Okay.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

But people also maybe thought that because they already attached her to the hoax theory with Channel 7, that this was not a fair argument, that like, maybe she was just associated with hoaxes. And so. So that's how we landed here.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

Also, the hauntings were happening around the clock whether or not Kirsty was there. So there were times where she wasn't in the house, believe it or not. And there were still things being thrown at everyone. Paul and Tony, this is probably my favorite quote of all of it. They were in defense of Kirstie in this moment. Paul and Tony said, I'm confident of two things. If anyone was pulling stunts, it was Kirsty, and Kirsty wasn't pulling stunts.

[Christine]

Oh, I love this. Yes, yes, yes. That's wonderful.

[Em]

They were like this insight, this is fucking nobody's fault. This is a real ass ghost. But then people thought, well, maybe Kirsty isn't doing this as a hoax. Maybe this really is that her and Andrew brought something with them when they moved in. Because then that would also.

[Christine]

Right. Line up with the timeline of it.

[Em]

Yes. Okay. So people thought maybe she was inadvertently bringing energy into the house when she moved in. Or maybe she was cursed. Reason one being that there was allegedly no activity until her and Andrew got there. Reason two being that Andrew and Kirsty previously lived in a house that maybe had activity in it at a previous house of theirs. Kirsty and Andrew had stones also being forcefully thrown at their windows and doors.

[Christine]

What?

[Em]

At the same time, at work, items would go missing and end up in weird places. So at the time they. They didn't even think of it as a ghost at the time. So for context, Andrew and Kirsty are like, incredibly racist.

[Christine]

Oh, interesting plot twist.

[Em]

And they were very outspoken about that. In fact, Tony Healey himself, at the paralogical. Parapsychological research lecture I watched, he was very out upfront about it. He was like, they were incredibly racist. Jesus. And so they had activity happening at their house, but they excused all of it as people mad at their views. Like someone.

[Christine]

Oh, for God's sake.

[Em]

Pulling things on their house, which. Like, they had stones being thrown, which I could imagine like someone in protest, like throwing rocks at your fucking door.

[Christine]

Yeah, that one tracks.

[Em]

Yeah, they had items go missing and end up in weird places. I don't. That sounds more like someone's breaking into your fucking house. I don't know know if that. How true that is.

[Christine]

Weird hoax that is.

[Em]

Yeah, they did have a weird situation happening when it comes to missing items at their place of work. So they worked kind of at like a mess hall and they would find cups full of coffee grounds that could not be explained. And then knives would go missing and they would be found stabbed into the freezer's meat.

[Christine]

Ew.

[Em]

Which is very creepy, but I don't know if that was to like, like threaten them or scare them or whatever.

[Christine]

Just try and get some prime rib. Like, I don't know.

[Em]

Or just. I don't, like maybe just to ruin their day. I don't totally understand, but it certainly was freaky.

[Christine]

Ruined my day.

[Em]

But at the time, Andrew and Kirsty never considered it was a ghost. They always thought these were things being pulled by people who didn't like their views.

[Christine]

Oh, sure.

[Em]

But now that they're in this haunted house, it seems like they're trying to. It's like they're like, oh, well, in hindsight, maybe it was a ghost and nobody was actually that mad at us for our shitty views. You know what I mean?

[Christine]

Yes.

[Em]

It's like a weird. They're bringing. They're bringing up their past to, like, justify the now when, like, they weren't ever using that story before.

[Christine]

Yeah, it's a little. Yeah, I get you.

[Em]

Kirsty also at one point said that she thought, oh, we didn't bring any energy with us, we actually think it's cursed because Kirsty.

[Christine]

Oh, just saying.

[Em]

No, I like where your head's at. Hang on a second. Hang on a second. We gotta do something about that.

[Christine]

It's leaning on Leticia is where it's at.

[Em]

Leticia Lemon, before people who are only listening don't know that you're leaning against Letitia Lemon Squishmallow. Like, who's Leticia? Hang on a second.

[Christine]

I'm just resting my head on Leticia's warm bosom.

[Em]

What's your dolphin one? Dolph's name.

[Christine]

Oh, yeah, Dolphins. He's over there. That's Moonshine's mommy.

[Em]

Letitia Lemon is your next mommy, I guess.

[Christine]

No, I'm Letitia. Moonshine. Leticia's mine. Moonshine stole doll for me, so Leticia's mine.

[Em]

Well, okay, so these people are, you know, justifying the ghosts now with, like, probably just people mad at them for being racist in the past. But she also is saying that maybe they didn't bring the energy. Maybe she was cursed all along because at one of the houses, she saw some indigenous people on her property, and she turned that into a whole story about them cursing her.

[Christine]

Sure. Yeah. That trap, definitely.

[Em]

I could get into the details of it. It's not worth anyone's time.

[Christine]

Doesn't seem like it.

[Em]

So basically, she never considered the activity at the first house to be paranormal until now. And now that she's maybe in an actual haunted house, she's like, oh, in hindsight, yes, I've had ghosts with me, so maybe I am the reason that things got brought over here. It is weird that she had stones flying around in two different houses, but it seems like one was at her door and her windows outside versus, like, raining from the ceiling.

[Christine]

Right. This feels like amplified times a thousand.

[Em]

Yes. So that's one theory that it's, you know, that she inadvertently did this and it's indigenous people's fault. I suppose another theory is that Channel 7 actually suggested. They suggested this. That the poltergeist was actually just energy from the original owners.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Em]

Because the original family who built this house in the 70s, they lived there for 20 years. They loved this house a lot. And when they were evicted, they literally left kicking and screaming. They were, like, so attached to this house. They love this house.

[Christine]

Oh.

[Em]

And. But the original family's still alive, so it's not like they're dead and their energy is still here.

[Christine]

Oh, weird. Okay. So, yeah, there's no, like, traumatic thing that happened them.

[Em]

Can you hear the stupid what lawnmower? Okay. If any. If anyone can hear it, there's a lawnmower outside. Sorry.

[Christine]

But.

[Em]

So, yeah, the family's still alive. So it's not like their ghosts are in this house. But then. But then the. They were like, maybe it's not the ghost on the property. Maybe they cursed the property when they left because they wanted to live there so badly. I don't know. And then the family themselves suggested that maybe it was their. Like the family themselves. Like, the original owner said this.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Em]

He said maybe because we miss the house so much, it's our anger manifesting at the house when we're asleep. What?

[Christine]

How often? First of all, when do you sleep?

[Em]

Because are you asleep 24 hours a day?

[Christine]

Why do you keep sleeping and so angrily? I think you need to get your vitamin D and iron levels checked, first of all. Second of all, what the hell? That's. That's alarming and also not good for your health if you're that angry all the time that you even admit it might be creating supernatural occurrence at violence. Like, you need to get that checked under order. Under order, indeed.

[Em]

Another theory is that this all could have been started from the storm the day that they first got activity.

[Christine]

Yes. The storm that is. Feels like when it started, kind of to really.

[Em]

They think that that might have set off something electromagnetic in the. The spheres in the ether. And then the final theory is that this could have really been Troy or the friend that passed away. And if not Troy, then it could have been the people living there because they were his friends. They could have been bringing this energy out of an already haunted house while grieving.

[Christine]

That was my fear. That was my theory I align with most.

[Em]

I would say I agree because the death only happened two weeks before this activity started.

[Christine]

Two weeks. I keep forgetting how close that was. Yeah. Yeah.

[Em]

And so they were probably just. I mean, it's one person who grieving their best friend. But imagine a house of like five people all grieving, one person who died two weeks ago pretty near the property. And like. And maybe the house already haunted. Yeah, so that's my theory. I'm. I'm glad you agree with me that they just generated a lot of negative shit. And also, like, what are the odds that Troy's name would show up? So like, maybe something intelligent knew what they were feeling or overheard them.

[Christine]

Or maybe it was almost like them manifesting it, but slightly off. Like maybe they were just so much thought about Troy that it like manifested his name on that thing, you know, I don't know.

[Em]

Yeah. Yeah. So we probably won't ever know the actual truth about this, but the Humpty Doo Poltergeist is one of the most prolific haunts in Australia. And a final quote from Paul the Cropster is that the Humpty Doo case seemed to have almost everything. Showers of stones, wrappings and scratchings, dangerous objects thrown with great force but without causing injury, threatening messages, mind games, violent reactions to prayers and religious paraphernalia, and resistance to exorcism. I get asked, was it real? Yes, it certainly was. I remain convinced that what I observed was a poltergeist.

[Christine]

Cropster has spoken. The Cropster has. Has spoken. I. I believe it.

[Em]

I believe it too.

[Christine]

I don't always believe the stories necessarily, or all of it, but this one sounds pretty compelling to me.

[Em]

I. I mean, that's a lot of witnesses and none of them saying this isn't real.

[Christine]

And nothing like really pointing at anyone besides a faint reflection of somebody in the. You know, like, nothing really seemed to. It's not like, oh, and then they found dust of gravel under one of their beds. Like, you know, I don't know, it's like there was nothing that you could kind of point to.

[Em]

You would think with five housemates and so many people in their home, someone would have seen something.

[Christine]

Yeah, exactly.

[Em]

Yeah. So that is probably I would. From what I've seen so far, the most famous poltergeist of Australia.

[Christine]

I can't believe I've never even heard of such a thing.

[Em]

Me too. And all of it, by the way, because of one random mention when I covered the Gyra Ghost.

[Christine]

That's right, because it was such a compelling name name.

[Em]

And someone said something like, this is. This was the biggest poltergeist until we got the Humpty Doo pulse.

[Christine]

And I was like, everybody knows.

[Em]

So anyway, thank you, Gyra Ghost, for the shout out to the Humpty new poltergeist.

[Christine]

It's all connected. Good job.

[Em]

Thank you. Thank you. You know, not only do I like a nap, I like a little bougie nap. I want to feel like I'm in something buttery and soft. It's like glamping cozy.

[Christine]

But for naps I like.

[Em]

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[Christine]

You use and wash them, the softer they get. And I'm like, that's, it's like you, the more you nap, the softer your sheets get. Like, it's like a winning formula all twist my arm.

[Em]

Yeah. And they're crafted by artisans who pay, who earn the pay and respect that they deserve. These all season sheets have a breathable, unmatched softness to start. And like you said, get softer with every wash. And if they don't change the way you sleep, you can send them back for a full refund.

[Christine]

Now's your chance to change the way you sleep with bowl and branch. Get 15 off plus free shipping on your first set of [e-mail] Drink that's bowl and Branch. B O L L a n d branch.com drink to save 15 exclusions apply. See site for detail details. M I'm, I don't know about you, but I'm one of those people that loves like the, the little comfort, comfort luxuries, you know.

[Em]

You don't know about me.

[Christine]

Stupid question. No, it's, it's, it's like the perfect match we've found here with Quince. Okay. Because you can make your home feel like a very luxurious space and like long lasting, good quality stuff. You get it all from the same place on at Quint and it's so affordable that you feel like, like, oh, I can do this to my wardrobe too.

[Em]

I feel like I could wear it on like Rodeo Drive and get away with it. You know what I mean?

[Christine]

Just like be.

[Em]

I know Quince offers a range of high quality items at prices within reach. Like 100 Mongolian cashmere sweaters. We have talked about those. We own those. We love those. But the best part is that all Quint Items are priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands.

[Christine]

They also only work with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices. So give yourself the luxury you deserve with quintessential quince. Go to quince.com drink for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns.

[Em]

That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com drink to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com drink Man, I got back pain from sleeping. I have sweats from sleeping. I have bad dreams from sleeping because I just have a terrible mattress. Just kidding. I have a Helix mattress. None of those things.

[Christine]

Opposite to a.

[Em]

No, I am very lucky to have myself a Helix mattress. And Christine also has a Helix mattress which she often records from so it we just love very much.

[Christine]

It's just like my workplace and my sleep place and, you know, it's just all good things in one. Yeah. So, you know, I was gonna say.

[Em]

If you like something super cozy, if you want to sit in it, if you want to eat in it, if you want to study in it, if you want to sleep in it, if you want to roll around in it, it.

[Christine]

If you want to do something silly.

[Em]

In it, wink a few silly things you could do. There's a range of silliness that could happen in there.

[Christine]

Look on the Internet. It's all there.

[Em]

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[Christine]

All right, welcome back, everybody. In my breaking news, my period started, so congratulations to me. And it does explain a lot of my energy, maybe. I think maybe that does track, doesn't it? It feels like it answers some of our unanswered questions. So here I am. I'm back, and I do want to issue a quick apology to my friend Julio, because, also known as the flower hat, by the way, he had a blue check mark before I ever did. So I feel like, you know, he's one rung above me. But Julio had suggested the Helen Przinsky story to me last week and was like, you have to cover this, which is why I covered it. And it would have been great to mention that after my weird meltdown about how I don't. I don't know about our process and stuff, but I thought he submitted Frank McAllister, which is what I'm covering today. So I was, like, going through our text, being like, where is his thing about. Like, I was gonna give him a shout out, and then I was like, wait a minute. And I had a sinking feeling, and I typed in Helene, and his text was like, I have this crazy story. So I texted him. I was like, don't think. I'm just, like, totally cutting you out when I tell the story. I just forgot. I'll bring it up today. And he actually said. He said, re record everything. And I said, okay, maybe I will. And so here we go. This is the story of Frank McAllister, not brought to you by Julio, but.

[Em]

Sort of in spirit, though.

[Christine]

In spirit, maybe. So Frank McAllister was born September 20, 1973, to parents Cindy and Doug. He was a very happy child. He loved attention, and his favorite feeling was making people laugh. When Frank was 8 years old, his parents divorced. This is already starting to sound like our biographies. We just loved attention. Our parents got divorced.

[Em]

Keep it going, Keep it going.

[Christine]

Cindy, his mom, said that she and Doug, now her ex husband, had had their ups and downs and they just couldn't make it work anymore. But, you know, being the 80s, early 80s, it was 81 at this point. Divorce, although it was acceptable enough, it was still hard for women. Like, it was just hard to get back on your feet. They had.

[Em]

It was still taboo.

[Christine]

It was very taboo. Exactly. And. And even legally speaking like, that, those equal rights were very new as well. Like.

[Em]

Yeah. Not even 10 years old.

[Christine]

Yes, exactly. So I talked about the Equal Credit opportunity act of 74. And before that, women were not even allowed to own a bank account or open a bank account, excuse me, if. Without their husband's permission or their father's. I mean, it's like, so ick. And same with, like, obviously mortgages, credit cards, loans, you name it. And so the ecoa, when that was passed, made it explicitly illegal for banks to discriminate based on sex on race, color, religion, national origin, sex, marital status, or age. But Cindy, you know, this law had just passed. She was a new mother. Everything didn't change at once, especially from town to town, state to state. And so getting divorced in 81 was more complicated for her than it was for her husband.

[Em]

Husband, of course.

[Christine]

So, yeah. So I tell you all that because Frank's dad, so the. Her ex, Doug, moved back to Reading, California, where his family was from. And his mom, Frank's mom, Cindy, had to make the really tough decision to send Frank with his dad to, because she just said it was. It was too much. I had to get myself back on my feet before I could figure out how to care for him. Yeah. And so, you know, that becomes just a big, I guess, plot point, which is why I described all that. And it was really devastating for her to almost. It was like a sacrifice, right? To, like, let her son go. She said, I just thought he'd have a better life there.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

But even though, for.

[Em]

For him, it, like, looked like she abandoned him or something.

[Christine]

No. No, I don't think so. They stayed really close. It just like. It just, I think, probably eats at her, like the what ifs, you know, like, what if I had said, no, no, stay here instead of go with your dad, you know? And I Think that's kind of where that sticking point is. But, you know, for what it's worth, I think it was a very noble decision because at this point in her life, she didn't even have a car, and she had a young child who needed.

[Em]

Who needed attention. Who needed.

[Christine]

Who needed a lot of attention.

[Em]

Well, sorry. Someone to be attentive to them.

[Christine]

Oh, sorry, I thought you meant who needed attention. I was like, yeah. And he was running a puppet show every five minutes. That was us. Yeah. And he was directing all the neighborhood kids. Yeah. So I was like, wow, Em. Yeah. Pulling the punches here. Yeah, he needed a lot of attention. No, but you're right. Like, she basically said, like, I barely had the means to get myself to the grocery store, let alone, like, care for a kid and bring him to school and, you know, all that stuff. And she wanted to establish her life. So she missed her son Frank desperately, but she thought he'd be better off living with his father in Redding, California, while she figured out her life. So Frank and his dad had always been extremely close, and they bonded over fishing. That was their favorite activity when he was younger. Frank used to take his fishing pole outside and just practice with his dad's fishing pole over and over and over without any water. Just like, to practice doing it.

[Em]

Just throw it and bring it.

[Christine]

Just throw it. And probably drag, like, sticks and leaves with you every time.

[Em]

I'm sure his dad loved that.

[Christine]

I know, right? And so now that they were in Reading, they lived close to a river, and Frank and his dad spent entire days fishing, picnicking, swimming. He was basically living like a very idyllic life in terms of that kind of 70s 80s nostalgia. Like living in the woods, running around with the thing you always see in.

[Em]

Like, in slow motion playbacks now.

[Christine]

Yes, yes. Yeah, yeah. And like crossing the river on a log.

[Em]

I don't know, like, the full house theme song could play over it if you wanted to.

[Christine]

Yes, big time. And so he had that kind of life. And his uncle later described the river. River that they would always go to as where summer happened for us and happened for Frankie. And I just was like, that's really.

[Em]

That's so. So. I know it's going to be sad.

[Christine]

It is. I. If someone were to say, this is where summer happened for us, it would have been the beach, water park, May she rest in peace. Which really is an unfortunate place to. For my childhood memories to go to their grave. But that is probably the most. I don't know, like, symbolic location of my year. What was it Called the Beach Water Park.

[Em]

It. Well, it didn't have a name. It was just the Beach Water Park.

[Christine]

It was called the beach. And it. Oh, we. We would call it. We're Going to the Beach. I mean, so. So Ohio. Like, it's just. But, like, you pass it every time you go up a certain highway, and every time you drive past, it's just like, rip, because you can see the giant, like. Like, cliff, you know, water slide. And it's just, like, decrepit. And then every now and then, someone's, like, bought the property and wants to, like, renovate it. And I'm like, ah, no, I'm not letting Leona go down that cliff slide that I used to do. I don't know why. I just thought, like, a river would be such a nice place for summer to have happened instead of the Beach Water Park.

[Em]

But, yeah, no, that's. How. How old were you when it's, like, went defunct?

[Christine]

Oh, I think really old. I think I may have already been in college or, like, finishing high school. So it was around for a while.

[Em]

Mine, I think, you know, it's my. My water park. It didn't. It's still around. It's called Waterworks.

[Christine]

Waterworks, okay. That's a better name already.

[Em]

It's still around, but emotionally, I think it's defunct because I, as an adult, don't think that I could. I could never. Now I think I'm just. As I'm getting older, I'm, like, more, like, aware of germs and shit.

[Christine]

No, it's horrifying. I literally look back, back sometimes. Alexander and I still sometimes read reviews of it, like, on episodes, and we're like. The fact that we basically lived there is so sick. Like, I can't believe I don't have more parasites just, like, eating my skin.

[Em]

I. I remember as a kid thinking, like, having, like, a moment with myself and being like, please be the fun parent that goes to walks with your kids.

[Christine]

I know.

[Em]

See, and an adult me is like, like, you.

[Christine]

Like, Clorox, get out of my face.

[Em]

I'm like, I. I know that it was such a desperate want, and. And this would have really probably been a bond with me and my future kids, but they're just not going to have that. I'm sorry about it.

[Christine]

But here's what I'll say. Maybe there's a world in which nowadays, 30 some or 30 years later, things are maybe more sanitized and postco. Maybe they're more. They're better implemented. In that case, would you attempt maybe A water park.

[Em]

I would need to see the numbers.

[Christine]

Okay, but you. You. You're just saying, like, in terms of your home water park, you're like, never again.

[Em]

Water parks in general. I'm just aware of, like, how much pee and, like, spit and, like, probably blood and used band aids. Like, I'm just like. Like, thank you.

[Christine]

Yeah. No, no, no.

[Em]

I. I think I would look like that loser dad. Like, I would. Like, I would go. But I would be, like, in goggles and, like, I would bring, like, Like, a cleansing wipe on my face.

[Christine]

Have to read or listen? Listen to my podcast. Em, you have to listen to my podcast. It's called Beachy Sandy, Water too wet.

[Em]

And what. What episode? The water park one.

[Christine]

The water parks episode. It's great. Wolf Lodge maybe, or I don't know. But I gotta tell you, Em, it was probably one of the most unhinged, and we talk a lot about the beach, water park, home of our tribe, childhood.

[Em]

I'm. I'm getting to it right now. Anyway, I. I will.

[Christine]

Oh, my God. Are you gonna listen? I'm, like, embarrassed now. I'm, like. I'm, like, blushing.

[Em]

You know, I just started listening to our own podcast.

[Christine]

Really? How's that going?

[Em]

Well, I started listening, like, a couple months ago now.

[Christine]

I started listening a little bit, too, interestingly enough.

[Em]

It's weird to hear myself, but no, I. And then also, like, I feel like I weirdly am imposing if I listen to you and Zandy talking. I know it's literally a podcast, but I'm like. I feel like. Like, I'm.

[Christine]

I beg of people. If you want to listen to it, go for it. If you don't, I have zero. Like, please don't. Please don't do it just to, you know, out of feeling like you have to. But I'm so thankful when people who want to listen to it do, because then I don't have to, like, tell them things. Like, they'll just know. You know what I mean? Like how my neighbor Anne and Blaze are both caught up on my life because they listen to my podcasts, and it's, like, really comforting to have a neighbor to go to yoga with and Blaze, and they just know what's going. Going on.

[Em]

Well, I. Whenever I listen to a podcast of, like, if I hear myself on a podcast, I can't listen to it.

[Christine]

Unbearable.

[Em]

But so I recently tried getting into. And that's why we drank. It's a pretty good podcast. You should listen to it. And.

[Christine]

No, thanks.

[Em]

And be she Sandy. I feel like I Because I actually know the two of you. I'm like, I don't want to be that person who like live texts you my opinion on things. No, please do feel like I'll have things to say.

[Christine]

I already have so many of them, including Julio and who have. Whom I've already mentioned multiple times. So yeah, no, I. It would be an honor really if you listen to the 1. Also, we talk about you so often because I know you don't ever listen that I'm like now I'm a little bit nervous that I've said things about you.

[Em]

I have been tagged on the tick tock clips whenever you mentioned me.

[Christine]

I see that every time I go now what did I say? I don't know. I don't know what I said.

[Em]

So far I've said by everything you've said. So good. It's. You're doing good.

[Christine]

Yeah. Maybe just stick to the water parks episode then, cuz. Perfect. It's pretty gnarly. Okay. All that to say. Basically he had this kind of idyllic childhood, that very nostalgic Northern California or I don't know, central Northern California. Just beautiful, you know, woodsy, 80s, running through the woods with your, you know, very close with your dad and uncle and going camping and hunting and fishing. So very nostalgic. And he really, really grew up pretty well there. And by the time he was 19 years old, this was the spring of 1993. He is a happy young adult. He's making plans for the future. He had recently proposed to his girlfriend Danelle. And Danelle. And he planned to elope in Reno and start building a life together as adults and start a family. Family. The issue was Frank wasn't sure how to, you know, get the financial means to do this. And he had been in a car accident a few months prior and had received a roughly five thousand dollar insurance settlement for totaling the car or for the car having been totaled. But beyond the $5,000, he didn't really have much, especially if they were like moving out of state. State, you know, and it's going to.

[Em]

Go to the car probably and.

[Christine]

Right. You're going to need a car and all that. And so he worked at a local restaurant as a cook. And you know, he made some money there, but not too much obviously. But he was determined to take that five grand and hopefully turn it into a larger sum so that he and Denelle could really start their lives together. So on May 6, Frank borrowed his girlfriend, or I'm sorry, fiance's Danelle's car to Run some errands. And basically he didn't quite tell her, but he had mentioned going to a see a friend and that he had plans for the rest of the day, but he'd be back that evening.

[Em]

Cool.

[Christine]

By the time it was late, Frank was still out and Denelle went to bed. But when she woke up the next morning and discovered he still hadn't returned with her car, she started dialing his pager. Good times. She dialed his pager multiple times. And when he didn't respond, that's when she started to freak out. And she called Frank's mom, who also hadn't seen him and tried paging. Nothing. So Cindy agreed that this was unlike Frank. So she and her husband Jack started driving to Reading to meet with Danelle. And that this is where I always just get this sense of like, that impending doom. Yes. I wrote doom, like in my notes. It's that feeling of like, having to drive. And I think a recent story I covered also discussed that notion of having to drive like through the night and your adrenaline is like, keeping you up, but you have no idea. It's like meeting you on the other side and.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Oh, it's also like chilling the.

[Em]

The reality of, like, the fact that I'm even in this car going to look is not a good sign.

[Christine]

Exactly. Like. Like it's already bad. Things are bad.

[Em]

It's already bad.

[Christine]

You don't know. It's almost like you don't know how bad and you fear the worst.

[Em]

It's the moment when you're already preparing.

[Christine]

For, like, the unthinkable, probably. Yeah. And so that is kind of exactly how it went. She and her husband Jack, so his stepdad, Frank's stepdad, drove to Reading to meet with Danelle. And the entire time, Cindy just kept telling herself, Frank will be there by the time you get there. And you know, they don't have cell phones at this point, obviously. And so she's just hoping that by the time they arrive, this is all solved itself and they can have a coffee and move on.

[Em]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Christine]

But when they get to Rena, there's still no sign of Frank anywhere. The police take a missing person report, but it's a 19 year old man. He's been gone less than 24 hours. It's like, I mean, there's only so much they can do. They don't exactly jump into action right away. However, it was a red flag that he had recently cashed that insurance check, meaning he presumably had five grand on him.

[Em]

Oh. And so now it's like, did he get robbed or what is he doing with that five grand?

[Christine]

Yeah, it's sort of like, like that could have put a target on him, you know. So the official assumption was, hey, listen, he'll show up sooner or later, but we're going to note this and make an official report. But Frank's family was like, no, he would not have gone somewhere overnight. He would not have not answered his pager. He would not have told nobody where he was going. And he would have contacted us by now if something like car troubles had happened to him. Um, and all they could do was wait. Which again is my worst nightmare. The idea of just sitting there with nothing to do but wait for answers.

[Em]

Also my. I would think too, like, if you have that much money, you at least could like break a five and make a phone call, like find a, find a pay phone, walk into a hotel and borrow a house.

[Christine]

It's not like he was completely empty handed. Yeah, yeah, that's.

[Em]

So it's the fact that he wasn't accessible at all in any.

[Christine]

Yeah, like not even using someone's phone or anything. Yeah, that's a good point. So hours later, just before midnight, a call came in from a Costco in Reading reporting an abandoned vehicle in their parking lot, which they said had been there overnight, so since May 6th. And police responded and identified the vehicle by the license plate, and it was Donelle's car. So the car that he had bought that Frank had borrowed from her.

[Em]

Damn.

[Christine]

Frank was nowhere in sight. However, the car and its wheel wells were caked in mud as if the car had been driving through some very, like, off roading rural areas and then abandoned here and ditched in a hurry. The window was still rolled down, the key was in the ignition. And when they opened it, they saw that there was blood everywhere. There was blood pooled in the driver's seat, stained the door. There was a backpack for filled with bloody newspaper and a white T shirt on the floor that was completely soaked with blood.

[Em]

Oh my God. Oh, wow.

[Christine]

Horrific gore. And the detectives said later in interviews that they knew based on the amount of blood in the vehicle that who, who like whomever had been attacked probably had not survived this attack. Too much blood had been lost. And you know, of course they notify the family they found this vehicle and they have to tell them, you know, know the scary bad news. And Cindy later said that her heart broke as she realized Frank just would never be coming back. Like not just today, but never. And his uncle seemingly had the same idea and said that's when I knew, well, Frankie's gone for good. Which is just like, oof.

[Em]

Yeah. I mean, if you're already going into that, if you're already driving down that road with the doom in your heart, that, like, something's not good, and then that happens. Very hard to have.

[Christine]

Have to go upward at all. Yeah, exactly. To have any, like, hope. Yeah. Yeah. It must be crushing.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

So basically, they turned it into a homicide investigation. Right then because of the amount of blood and, you know, the abandoned car. So the police turned to the. To the drug scene of Reading. And that was based on some information from Danelle that Frank had occasionally used methamphetamines in the past. Past. And she had heard him mentioning that he might be able to use some of the insurance money and flip it for quick profit.

[Em]

Okay, I see.

[Christine]

Via drugs. And the problem was Frank was not experienced in this realm whatsoever. I mean, it was, like, not his kind of forte. Forte, yeah, exactly. And his uncle even said he was pretty naive. Like, this was not really a safe space for him to be wheeling and dealing. You know, Frank's family investigators wondered, like, maybe he made a deal with somebody and it went south and he was killed for that reason. Maybe he was robbed and he was too naive to see it coming. Interestingly, three different tips that came in all mentioned the same man who also happened to be on the drug scene in the area, and that was a man named Brian Bennett.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

So, of course, police go straight to Brian Bennett first, because as one of the detectives said in an interview, you get one tip. Okay, that's great. Two, like, wow, we're onto something. But three people. Three different people call in. It's like, how could you not think this is your guy?

[Em]

Yeah. Like, wake up, wake up. There's a sign. Don't. Don't miss the pattern.

[Christine]

There's a pattern. It's very obvious. And so, according to one of the tips, someone saw Frank at Brian's house, allegedly asking Brian to sell him drugs with the cash he had gotten. And the tipster said they saw Brian then return later to his own house, visibly nervous and fidgeting, and that his truck was covered in blood and mud. Okay. Another tipster claimed Brian was seen driving Danelle's car with Frank in the passenger seat.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

Also weird. The third caller reported that Brian shot Frank in the head and abandoned his remains at the river where Brian and his family like to go fishing.

[Em]

Oh, I hope for multiple reasons. I hope that one's not true. Just for the sentimentality, isn't that wild.

[Christine]

So Frank's dad and uncle searched the river tirelessly when they heard this, and they knew they weren't going to find him alive, of course, but they wanted to bring him home so they could bury him. So they're out there looking for the body of their son and nephew, which. So just sick.

[Em]

And just like, every time you. It's like the worst day of fishing because if you catch something, you're like. You're like, what the fuck am I about to pull up? Is it. Yeah, you don't want to kid.

[Christine]

Exactly.

[Em]

Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

[Christine]

It's horrific.

[Em]

I assume they're fishing. Like, I mean, how. Or what. What are they doing to.

[Christine]

No, I think they're just, like, wading through the water.

[Em]

Oh, okay. I thought they were, like, trying to, like, just see if they catch anything.

[Christine]

I mean, maybe they're water netting. I don't know.

[Em]

But I'm not sure that makes more sense. Sorry, I wouldn't. I didn't even know how to image.

[Christine]

Imagine, you know, I don't either, but I. Yeah, I'm assuming it was more just like they looked to see if anybody had been dumped.

[Em]

It's visually even more heartbreaking if they're just waiting through the water just like. Yeah, almost like. Like just kicking your feet, wondering if you'll hit something.

[Christine]

You. Oh, my God. Or seeing, like, a shoe or a sock, you know, and you're like, could that be? And then it's not. I mean, it just sounds, like, so traumatic. Oh, my God. And so that's what they're doing. And I just want to, like, I'm just going to say this now. That tip, that third tip was bunk. Like, somebody just called that in.

[Em]

Oh, I don't.

[Christine]

Like, I feel like I should say that now because I might forget later. But, yeah, that wasn't even a real tip. Like, why would you even invent that?

[Em]

And why would you say that?

[Christine]

Like, what is wrong with people? It's like, somehow it's obviously not worse because thankfully it wasn't true. But it's like, what kind of sicko comes up with that?

[Em]

It's just. It feels extra. I mean, did they know the. The story of, like, oh, that's where we always used to play. And.

[Christine]

Yeah, they must have if they said, like, they dumped him. Their bodies where they used to fish. It's like. Like, clearly they knew them well enough to make that connection.

[Em]

Like, why would you now.

[Christine]

So weird.

[Em]

Paint of, like, a good memory with someone who's dead. Like, what my Assumption is like, my.

[Christine]

Assumption is like they're trying to frame this Brian guy, you know, like this Brian. But like, what a sick thing to make. Then the family go digging through the river and like, ugh, yeah, it just really disturbed me. But so anyway, of course they go check with Brian because that's. They've gotten three tips about this guy. Meanwhile, his alibi checks out. So even when they talk to him, there's nothing connecting him to this at all. It wasn't Brian. So police immediately hit a wall and there were several more persons of interest, but they didn't have a body, they didn't have a murder weapon, and they couldn't really make much of a. Of a case. So for 11 months, really nothing happened until a call came in on April 12, 1994, from authorities in a small town roughly 30 miles southeast of Reading called Shingletown, which almost sounds like a made up name, but Shingletown. So a hiker had discovered human remains in the woods. And one source called him a mushroom hunter. And I loved.

[Em]

Oh, a fun guy.

[Christine]

A fun guy. Just saying. Oh, that's sweet. So he had discovered human remains while mushroom hunting, which sounds like just the most traumatic thing. And amongst the, you know, kind of remains was an ID, a wallet that belonged to Frank McAllister.

[Em]

Nice.

[Christine]

So the remains had been scavenged by animals, but a grid search uncovered some of the clothes Donell reported Frank to have been wearing when he disappeared. And when they took the jawbone and teeth and did compared them to his dental records, it was a match. So they were sure that this was a body of Frank McAllister. Okay, so his remains had been discovered seven miles down a dirt road in a rural patch of pine forest. And Frank's family, you know, they were relieved because they could finally lay him to rest. This was just a story that stuck out to me and I decided to put it here because this is kind of the portion where, where they've accepted what's happened to their son. But Cindy mentions in an interview, she starts crying and she says that two years after Frank was killed, you know, she'd already buried him, they'd already come to terms with him being gone. But one day she went upstairs to take a nap and she said Frank just appeared before her, but as an eight year old boy, his eight year old self. And, and she said he looked at her and said, mom, I'm okay. And she noticed that his hair had been parted the way she always did. And she thinks, you know, that might be why he came to her in that version of himself and apparently said, mom, I'm okay. Don't worry about me no more. I'm okay. And she said, and then he went away. And she said she always knew from that moment on he's somewhere safe. You know, she didn't have the closure of knowing what had happened, but she, at least from that night or from that afternoon, knew in her heart that he was somewhere else and was okay.

[Em]

Wow.

[Christine]

And I just was like it was such a little crossover, you know, between.

[Em]

Yeah. You never get to mention a ghost.

[Christine]

It does not happen often. And it, you know, it wasn't in all the sources. So I was like, I better put this out there because I think that's pretty, pretty cool. Cool.

[Em]

And they, he did sounds like he did the thing of like they appear to you the way that you remember them or want to remember them.

[Christine]

And I bet you that was, you know, when he lived with her before they moved away. I know, I know. It's just really hard. It's awful.

[Em]

If, yeah, if anything had to happen from that, at least she got some closure.

[Christine]

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And she, it seems like that really, really did bring her some level of peace. So for what that's worth, I guess so. While Frank's family could finally, you know, begin burial arrangements, Detectives follow up on a prior lead back when Frank vanished. Danelle had mentioned that Frank had met, had mentioned stopping by a friend's apartment and this friend was 21 year old Curtis Culver. So Curtis lived with his 17 year old sister Shanna and according to one source, their mom as well. But Shanna confirmed with police that yes, Frank had stopped by and picked her up along with her brother and her on again, off again boyfriend, Brian Hawkins. Now this is a different Brian than the other one. That guy has been fully cleared. Okay, so she said she, her on again, off again boyfriend Brian and her brother Curtis all got picked up by Frank and the four of them drove around for a while, not really getting up to anything until Frank got a message on his pager and pulled over to a pay phone to make a phone call. He then apparently told his friends he had to go meet someone, drop them off in town and told them he'd be back to pick them up later but never showed.

[Em]

It sounds like he was, he went to do like some sort of deal.

[Christine]

Like a deal or something. So Curtis, Shanna and Brian said they eventually took a taxi back to the Culver's apartment and their stories all lined up in individual questionnaires. But detectives at this point Wanted to. After the body's been found, wanted to talk to the trio again to see if there had been any changes in their stories. They'd been the last people to have seen Frank alive, so. And it'd been nearly a year since police spoke to them, so they thought it couldn't hurt. But now when they went to go talk to them, they were not interested in speaking to the police and refused to cooperate. Interesting. Detectives couldn't prove that any of them had anything to do with Frank's disappearance. You know, even. Even if any of their fingerprints were found in the car. They said they were in the car with him, so it wasn't going to point to them in any real way.

[Em]

What was the situation with. You said the. The newspapers. The bag of newspapers.

[Christine]

Yeah. The bloodied newspapers.

[Em]

Yeah. Was there. Did we ever find out what that was? Did you already say that?

[Christine]

I did not, but you will find out.

[Em]

Oh, okay, okay, okay.

[Christine]

But remind me if I don't say it, because it's not in my notes, but I had planned to just mention it during.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

During one portion, but. Yeah, if I don't remember to say it, remind me. So they didn't have a case against any of them. And Shanna was 17, so she was still a minor, and so they couldn't even really get a statement from her without, you know, a parent. And it. So it got kind of complicated. And if it was a lead, then they had to just let it go for now, and that's what they did.

[Em]

Oof. I'd be so upset if I. I know, I know.

[Christine]

And they just. Just. Frank's family just had to, you know, bury him and hope for closure someday. His uncle said that the burial did bring some comfort because at least they could go have somewhere to talk to him, which just broke my heart. But the question of who murdered Frank and why, of course, haunted his family for years, especially after they did an autopsy. Because when the autopsy came back, it was determined that his bones had been cut so severely that somebody had been stabbing him viciously through the chest and had nicked his spine.

[Em]

Oh, my God.

[Christine]

Yeah. And they described it as extreme force. And so, you know, of course, this only upsets the family further, thinking he died and like this, and we don't know who did it, you know, or what, why.

[Em]

And also, like, how did nobody see, like, a bloody assailant walking around? Like, where did he go? Let's just smile.

[Christine]

Well, if. Sounds like they left by the water. Well, that's true, too, but the. The. The bloody car you know, I mean, yeah, remember? Filled with blood.

[Em]

I know, but I'm saying then he got out and walked somewhere. And then I'm thinking, well, if he was near that river, they would go fishing and maybe he like rinsed off or something. I don't know. But I mean, it doesn't really matter. Just. Yeah, yeah, just a racing thought.

[Christine]

I hadn't, I hadn't thought of that. So it was difficult for people to kind of reconcile with this, especially those who knew him and said he was just like a goofy, fun loving guy and would never hurt anyone. And it just seemed so shocking. And it seemed like what had happened was that he had gone out to make some money and immediately gotten in over his head with the wrong people. And you know, if they were people from out of town, down, just driving through, then maybe they left and maybe they'd never even solve this. It just felt kind of hopeless. If they were complete strangers that no one knew, then there was just no way to track them down. So years just passed and passed. Frank's case went cold. It wasn't until 2012 that anyone even kind of took a look at it. And even that detective put it back down. Down. Didn't notice any new updates or anything. Fast Forward to early 2018 and Courtney Kreider. This is where things go absolutely bananas. Okay.

[Em]

Oh, okay.

[Christine]

Fast forward to 2018 Courtney Kreider. She is a brand new reporter at KRCR News. And she had only started six months ago. So she's like fresh out. She's like young. She's doing this eager reporter. She's doing those like early, I'm sure, 4:30am mornings that I had to do once upon a time.

[Em]

And also Courtney Kreider. Just sound. You're meant to be a reporter. Are you kidding?

[Christine]

I'm Courtney Kreider. Yeah, I'm Michelle Norris. There's only a few names that really just do that. You know, I'm. No, I'm Emma Schultz. That'll do it.

[Em]

Sure.

[Christine]

So anyway, she's working and it's very fun to hear her describe this because is, she's like, I think around our age, I'm assuming. And she, she's like, well, I was at work one normal day in January and my grandpa called me. So she answers the phone, she's like, grandpa, I'm at work.

[Em]

Yeah. Do you mind?

[Christine]

Do you mind?

[Em]

It's 4:30. Can you go away?

[Christine]

Seriously, Just because I'm on the same sleep schedule as you finally, doesn't mean I want to talk to you. This early, her grandpa calls, and she's like, hey, I'm at work. Can I call you later? And he says, listen, listen, I just met a man through church that I want to talk to you about.

[Em]

Is it Jesus? I'm not interested.

[Christine]

Have you heard the good news? It's like, I'm the anchor on the news, but thank you. I. Yes, I've heard the good news. No. So apparently, the way, like, I can only imagine, but the way that Courtney Kreider describes her grandpa, she goes, oh, well, everybody in town knows him. And he and my grandma go to church, everybody, every week. And they're, like, just known in town, right? Like, they're just, I guess, pillars of the community in one way or another.

[Em]

Characters.

[Christine]

Characters in town. Exactly. And so she says when her grandfather says, like, someone approach me and he wants to talk to you, she's like, okay, tell me more. He says, this guy came to him and said, will you pray with me? And told him he was from Shingletown and he wanted to talk to somebody about the murder of Frank McAllister. Courtney's grandpa said, well, my granddaughter's a news reporter. And he said, I'd like to talk to her.

[Em]

It's almost as if God works in mysterious ways.

[Christine]

Isn't it just. Isn't it just. And so Courtney answers the phone and is like, grandpa, I'm working. And he's like, yeah, so go. I. I have a murderer on the line. Like, what the. It's just crazy. Like, grandpa calls, and you're like, grandpa, I'm busy.

[Em]

You know, he's going, that's all good, but hang on a second.

[Christine]

But, yeah, like, do you want to hear about the murderer or not? I've got him online, too. Like, what the is happening here? But that's what happened.

[Em]

So that's wild.

[Christine]

Essentially, Courtney's grandpa said he wants to confess to you on air. And she's like, can you imagine your.

[Em]

First day at the news station? And you go, I got a hit. Just so literally.

[Christine]

She goes into her boss's office, and she's six months into the job, and she goes. She's like, I have a story to pitch.

[Em]

She goes, I would like a promotion now.

[Christine]

Yeah, I want your desk now.

[Em]

You're going to want to hear this.

[Christine]

Yeah, we're trading places. So she's like, so, weird story, fun fact. My grandpa's a character. He just met a murderer in church, and the guy wants to talk to me. So the boss is like, I. So the boss remembered the case from back in the day. Whereas the. You. You know, Courtney may not have remembered it specifically. The. The. The boss was like, oh, my gosh. Yes. Like, if we have any information on that, we need to check this out, so go for it. So you can watch this whole thing.

[Em]

It.

[Christine]

They taped the whole thing. This guy came down in the news station, and they interview him and. And. And which.

[Em]

Like that on its own. Like, I feel like there's a lot of elements we're not even paying attention to. First of all, Grandpa is having a prayer session with a murderer. Like, one on one. Grandpa's like, it's like, don't tell your mom the babysitter's a vampire. It's like, don't tell grandpa. He's literally praying like, he's alone with a murderer right now and somehow unscathed.

[Christine]

But, like, he seems to know, and he seems to not really care.

[Em]

He's chill, it sounds like. Yeah. And then the other thing. Oh, what was I going to say? Oh, the fact that he had this, like, overwhelming moment where he needed to confess to even Grandpa. Yeah. You would think when grandpa says, oh, funny you should say this. My daughter or my granddaughter is in the news, you could confess publicly. You would think. You go, actually, never mind. Like, he was committed to the bit. Yes. Doing this. And then he drove there, knowing he was gonna do it, while police were probably surrounding the building, ready to take him in.

[Christine]

Literally. Yes.

[Em]

Like what? Like, I wonder, like, what the hell happened to him? Where he was like, this is. Is. I'm going through with this.

[Christine]

We don't really know. And, like, okay, I have my theories and thoughts, and we'll get to that because I want to hear yours once you have all the facts and all the information. Details.

[Em]

I don't need the facts. I'll just tell you what I'm thinking.

[Christine]

I'll say, it ain't so. But, yeah, I'm curious what you're gonna think, because. Anyway, we'll see. But I have some theories as to why he did it. So anyway, yeah, this must be like a surreal dream for this reporter. She's. It feels like a. Something that would happen to Lizzie McGuire in, like, a movie, you know, that she's a new reporter on the job, and then, like, suddenly.

[Em]

And a murderer just stumbles in to confess.

[Christine]

Then you'll be like, we'll just make it pg, but you know what I mean.

[Em]

Confess to me, Paulo.

[Christine]

She gets. She gets, like, the big scoop, right?

[Em]

You know, she would get the scoop.

[Christine]

And then she gets the guy. Gordo, of course know.

[Em]

But she Would do it in a trench coat and some fashionable specs.

[Christine]

Oh, big time.

[Em]

And it's not about you messed up.

[Christine]

Yeah. It's not about. It's not about looking pretty. It's about catching the bad guy. Anyway, so she is doing this interview, and I imagine it's very surreal. And as I watched her, she looked so young. She's like 22 or 21. I mean, she's probably right out of college, and she's like, so young. And it was like back when we all wore like, our little skinny jeans and, like, little. And she's like. She's like. As this guy's like, confessing to murder on camera.

[Em]

Well, she also like what is going on in her head because she has to keep it together. But she doesn't have years of experience talking to people like this on air.

[Christine]

With this guy having.

[Em]

She had to be in. She had to totally just, like, block it out and be like, okay, okay, this is happening. Talking about whether I like it or.

[Christine]

Not, Grandpa really threw me a curveball to today. Oh, my gosh. You know, I feel like we would get that subject line in a listener story email. Like, my grandpa, like, my grandpa warned some warned me of a killer, but it would be like a ghost of a grandpa.

[Em]

Yes.

[Christine]

And this is like, no, my real life grandpa called.

[Em]

Or it would be like, my grandpa is a killer.

[Christine]

Yeah. Or that. Yeah. This is just such a weird take on the whole thing. So he wanted to give a confession to a reporter, and wouldn't you know it, Grandpa. Grandpa's granddaughter, Courtney. Yep. They agreed to do it. So on January 9, 24 years after Frank was killed, Shanna's on again, off again boyfriend, Brian Hawkins, walks into the KRCR studios, and he is shaking. He is visibly nervous. He's on camera. He tells Courtney, well, basically she asks, what are you here to tell me today? And he says, right, right. Like, how else do you ask this question? And he says, I'm going to turn myself in next do store at the sheriff's department for a crime I was involved in years ago, and someone lost their life. It was murder. And Brian describes his involvement in murdering Frank along with accomplices Shanna and Curtis Culver. He said that every minute of his life has been a nightmare ever since and that finding God in the church had finally pushed him to confess. And he said, this is as close as I can come to doing the right thing. So while Courtney's calmly continuing the interview and she says later, like, she's. She's trying to keep it together? Well, no, she was trying to convince him to give more details, but, like, he was holding back on a lot of the details, and she was, like, getting frustrated, but. So she's calmly continuing the interview. And her boss, meanwhile, as this is going on, contacts a sheriff to say, hey, we have this guy, our studio, giving a live confession, or not a live, but a taped confession, and says he plans to turn himself in after he. He's done with the interview. So the sheriff's office thinks fast.

[Em]

So expect a knock on the door.

[Christine]

Yeah, exactly. They're like, okay, but hold on. Before you air this interview, can you delay it 24 hours? Because there are two other people involved, Shanna and Curtis, and we don't. Oh, God, Balloons. I'm sorry. That was.

[Em]

It's always the worst.

[Christine]

It's always the worst time. Yeah, true crime doesn't work well with these apple.

[Em]

You gotta come up with new symbols, like two or something.

[Christine]

Yeah, that feels like that's gonna do some rock and roll shenanigans. I think I can turn them off. I just have to figure out how. Anyway, so balloons notwithstanding, her boss calls the sheriff's office, and they say, can you please hold off on airing this just 24 hours until we have Shanna and Curtis in custody. So they don't flee, or so they don't get, you know, know, the jump on us. So they agreed, and police found the siblings in a town south of Reading, arrested them, and interviewed them separately. Shanna repeated the same story she told in 93 and was very. Just like, get me the out of here. Like, I don't want to be here. Just like, so much attitude. And then the detective says, well, you know, we had somebody come in today and turn himself in, and he implicated you. And she's like, oh, he's full of. He's full of. And then the detective's like, she really doesn't believe me. So he pulls up the actual news. I mean, it's on a news set, right? Like, he pulls it up. It hasn't aired yet, but he has the tape, and he plays it, and she goes ballistic. Like, loses her damn mind. She's like, he's a liar. He's a liar. He's a liar. Like, she's just losing her. And so all of a sudden, like, she's in over her head and she's arrested. And according to. To the reason she got so frenetic and upset is because, according to Brian, as he said on camera, the murder was Shanna's idea all along, because she Wanted Frank's money. Oh, so now maybe you're understanding my theory or starting to get a hint, a glimpse at my theory that he went to the news station to get ahead of the story almost. And I implicate himself the least. Maybe.

[Em]

Maybe.

[Christine]

I mean, theory of mine also, if.

[Em]

That theory is right, it is kind of. It's either incredibly stupid or incredibly smart to get it on tape. Like, because in my mind, when I heard, like, oh, he's going to confess live on tv, I was like, good luck to his lawyer. This will be like a slam dunk case for anyone going against him. But also it's like, oh, well, now there's evidence of him, like, trying to do the right thing so that he's, like, less.

[Christine]

Yeah, it's almost like, oh, he looks more admirable in a way. Like, he wants to get this off his chest. Yeah. So they show this. That's. Yeah, that's where my mind went too. So they show this video. She freaks out, I guess, understandably because Brian said it was her idea all along because she wanted Frank's money. So this is what Brian says happened. Brian told Frank he could be a middleman for drug sales and they could help him make this $5,000 into a big, bigger sum of money, but meanwhile, having these kind of ulterior motives of robbing him or for the cash. So the four of them drove into the woods in Shingletown. Frank drove. Brian sat behind him. He's the guy who just confessed. Next to Brian is Shanna. On again, off again, girlfriend. And in front of Shanna in the passenger seat is Curtis. Okay, does that make sense?

[Em]

I think so.

[Christine]

Okay, so the four of them talked for a few hours. Now, Curtis and Shanna. Just a reminder, Curtis and Shanna are brother, sister.

[Em]

Right?

[Christine]

Shanna and Frank are on again, off again, in case you didn't know that already. Yes, And Frank is just the unwitting guy victim here who accidentally finally got with the wrong people. So they drove into the woods, and apparently the four of them talked for a few hours until Shanna nudged Brian and showed him the huge knife she brought. She wanted him to take it and kill Frank. So apparently Brian is ready to take the knife from Shanna, but out of nowhere, this is Brian's version of events. Curtis pulls out a knife that he brought and stabs Frank before Brian even has the chance to.

[Em]

Wow.

[Christine]

Okay, well, I remind you again, this is Brian's version of events on air.

[Em]

I. I see.

[Christine]

Okay, so Frank climbs out of the car and falls to the Ground. And then Brian follows with Shanna's knife and climbs on top of him and stabs him multiple times. And then finally, Curtis drags Frank, who's still alive, 5, toward the front of the car, then takes a large rock, says, look at this, and then drops the rock on his head.

[Em]

Jeez.

[Christine]

He said, they left Frank in the woods, drove to Costco to abandon the car. Curtis and Shanna gave Brian a few hundred dollars of Frank's money that they took, and they took a taxi home and left the car there.

[Em]

I. To kill someone for $200 is.

[Christine]

Well, oh, for. For. For. Yeah, yeah. They made five grand. They gave him a few hundred of it. Yeah, yeah. It's sick. Wild Brian told a detective that he had been scared to death ever since. And completely unironically and almost in this, like, really chilling, quiet way, the detective just says, I would be, too. He says, I've been scared to death ever since. The detective says, I would be, too. So now they bring Curtison, who is the brother and who's allegedly the one who actually attacked Frank first. Curtis agrees to do a polygraph. And when a detective says, you completely bombed it, he decides to tell the truth. He tells a sort of similar story in some ways, but he notably claims that he did not attack first. According to Curtis, Brian actually took the knife from Shanna, reached from behind, wrapped his arm around Frank's head, and stabbed him in the throat from holy behind.

[Em]

Oh, my God.

[Christine]

This is sort of why I was insistent on describing where everyone sat, because Brian sat behind Frank, who was in the driver's seat. And the idea was they're all sitting there talking. Shanna shows the knife, hands it to Brian, and Brian claims, oh, but then Curtis pulled a knife and stabbed him, which I just find strange anyway. But, yeah, and then Curtis is like, no, he reaches up and he stabs him right in the throat. Curtis actually said he had genuinely believed that Brian was going to arrange some drug business with Frank and had no idea about this murder plot. And he was completely shocked.

[Em]

Can you imagine being thrown under the bus like that?

[Christine]

Yeah, and. Yeah, exactly. And as Frank climbed out of the car, Curtis didn't know what to do. And then he said that he dropped a rock the size of a basketball fault on Frank's head. And he said it was a mercy killing. Oh, I don't like that. He said it was mercy. And I'm like, no, no, no. So examination of the injuries to Frank's bones actually did support Curtis's account that Frank was stabbed from someone who was behind him. Okay, so this is why I say there may have been some ulterior motive to him going on the news and sharing his story before and him hiding.

[Em]

Behind God and all that.

[Christine]

All that, yes, exactly. I just call. I'm sorry, I. I just do. But I don't know. I don't know. Some people said like, he was haunted by it and.

[Em]

Well, part of me feels like he must be haunted by it because, like, why now? Like, why would you.

[Christine]

Yeah, he said he found God. That was the only thing. But I think the fact that it took so long, like, is really, really awful because people lived in misery for decades because of this. 24 years, you know?

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

It's just so crazy. So as the story unraveled between Curtis and Frank, Shanna could no longer pretend like she wasn't part of this, and she fessed up as well. So In November of 2019, Brian Hawkins pled guilty to first degree murder, robbery and charge enhancements. Now, I didn't know what charge enhancements were, so I looked into this. I had an idea, but I didn't know know specifically. So fun fact for you. Charge enhancements are additional penalties that can be applied to a criminal charge based on specific circumstances. So like say you can increase the length of a jail sentence. If, for example. Let me find an example. If it was a hate crime, a drug crime, if there was a DUI involved, if it was a repeat of offense, if it involved a weapon, it can, you know, upgrade the crime to a felony. Just things that kind of like tack on and add additional either punishment or justice or whatever you want to call it. And so I don't know, I just never really learned much about that. So any lawyers are probably like cringing. But I tried. I tried. So in January of 2022. Oh, I want to actually mention real quick before I forget. So he pled guilty and was sentenced to 25 years in prison. And that was Brian. Okay, so then we have Shanna. And in January of 2022. I mean, it's just crazy to think this happened so long ago.

[Em]

Two years ago, three years ago.

[Christine]

I know, I know. So January of 22, 46 year old Shanna pled guilty to her role in the murder and was sentenced to 20 years in prison. Then 50 year old Curtis pled guilty to manslaughter, robbery and assault and sentenced to 35 years in prison. Apparently the. The whole year for reading was very wild because just a few months later, Sherry Papini pled guilty to charges related to faking her Own kidnapping, which was a story I covered. 341. So that town was going through it that year. Reading. California.

[Em]

Sorry. Reading.

[Christine]

Yeah. Sorry, Redding. And that was episode 341, if you're interested. Frank's mother, Cindy, said in an interview that she really did believe God. God pushed Brian to finally confess, but she couldn't understand why it had taken so long, which is sort of like what you were saying. And she just said, I can't understand why I had to be. Why I had to endure so much of my life agonizing over what had happened when he was just gonna confess at the end of the day, you know, which I must be just such a hard pill to swallow.

[Em]

It's like, thanks, I guess.

[Christine]

I know. It's like a little too. Little too late, you know? Yeah. Thankfully, they have answers. Answers. But still. Frank's family released a statement which said Frank was denied. His whole life filled with opportunity, the creation of a family, a chance to love and be loved. To this day, our family imagines what life would have been like for all of us had Frank lived to be a part of all of us. Cindy also said in an interview that she won. This part is, of course, what just breaks my heart every time that Cindy said in an interview that she wonders whether Frank would be alive if he had lived with her instead of moving to running with his dad because she thought it would be a healthier, safer place to grow up. So it's almost like this. When you asked earlier, I was like, it's just this freak thing. It's like, yeah, Would he have gotten in trouble here? You know, it's like, would he have gotten. Found such dangerous people here? Maybe not.

[Em]

Maybe.

[Christine]

Yes. Anyway, so that's.

[Em]

Maybe it would have been worse.

[Christine]

Who knows? Who knows? There's no way to know. But that is a story of Frank McAllister, everyone, man.

[Em]

And they. They all went to jail when they were in like. Or prison when they were like in their 50s, right?

[Christine]

40S, 50s.

[Em]

I wonder if the judge ever.

[Christine]

Oh, the newspaper. Sorry.

[Em]

Oh, yeah, the newspaper.

[Christine]

What I wanted to mention, the. They. There was one source that mentioned the bloody newspapers are what that Brian claimed to have used to try and wipe blood off of everything that he was using newspapers to try and clean off as much as he could. But he was so, like, frazzled that he just kind of left it all behind.

[Em]

Gotcha. I was gonna say, I wonder if judges. How you said, like enhancements or whatever.

[Christine]

I think that can be sometimes at the discretion of a judge. Yes.

[Em]

I wonder if they just add extra time. If you got away with it for so long. Cause it's like well if you interesting gave yourself up when you were 20 or whenever this happened, like you ended up getting 30 extra years of life out of this. So like now I'm gonna add so many years of prison time because you should have made those up right in the past. I don't know.

[Christine]

I wonder. Because I wonder. I know, I wonder how much is. And it apparently it also varies by state. So yeah, it's hard to know, but I can imagine that being something they take into consideration. Yeah, for sure.

[Em]

I would, I would hope that if something happens to me, someone well remember extra time.

[Christine]

I mean remember when they discovered recently that not, I mean recently it's happened multiple times. But that Nazi guy was hiding out in Cleveland and they had to like wheel him out and they were basically like just cuz you're 95, like you don't get to claim like fragility and all that. You know, it's like, it's just this like you sick blended into the community for so long and, and like yeah, it adds an element if you've been in hiding, you know, for something so heinous.

[Em]

And even though like the guy was like oh, I lived in fear this whole time, it's like well yeah, you killed someone or was involved in.

[Christine]

Exactly. And I just, there's something about his eyes. I just when I look at him I get the heebie jeebies in a way of like I don't trust what you're saying.

[Em]

Really? Really?

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

What, what's his, what's his name? Brian. Not Brian McAllister. Brian.

[Christine]

Brian. There are two Brian's. I don't want to say the wrong one.

[Em]

And Brian Hawkins, right?

[Christine]

Yes, thank you.

[Em]

Oh yeah, he, yeah, creepy.

[Christine]

Doesn't he look scary?

[Em]

Yeah, he, I think as soon as he imagine being that 22 year old new news reporter and you're just like oh my God, that person is sitting right.

[Christine]

The photo they put here is really wild.

[Em]

Scary, right?

[Christine]

It's scary. That's him. I, I, he was not that scary on the news but like that's the.

[Em]

Picture I saw cuz I just went holy.

[Christine]

That is like a jump scare of a mug shot. Oh my God. It looks like he just everyone on the planet to a pulp.

[Em]

As soon as I saw that picture I went yeah, I don't know why we had to wonder if he was the killer.

[Christine]

But yeah, no, that definitely, you know he was definitely playing up the just, just like I'M so sad and scared thing. And I just was like, yeah, I don't know, man.

[Em]

But also, like, I feel like there's got to be research somewhere on, like, the. Is it narcissism, like, to do it on such a grand scale in front of everybody? Like, what was the reason? Was it to go out?

[Christine]

Yeah. Was it for attention? Like, was it for the clout? Was it, like, to get ahead of. I don't know, the punishment? I don't. I don't know.

[Em]

I don't know.

[Christine]

I'm gonna send you a picture of what he looked like at. At his sentencing, because it looks so different, but still, I get the. I still get the same ick factor.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

And to be fair, I said an intensity ick factor, not it factor. He's just got that special something that it factor.

[Em]

He's just. He's something really wowed me with that.

[Christine]

But, like, look at this picture. I'm sorry. There's something. Something about this picture. And the whole time he was crying, he was like, doing just like, sitting like that and, like, crying, and I was like, you're not really crying, are you? Like, it just something about it felt off. But, you know, I don't know. I'm no expert. I have no clue.

[Em]

It was. My neighbor used to call it, like, sucking on your teeth, like the. Oh, the tightness in your mouth.

[Christine]

Oh, interesting thing. Yeah.

[Em]

Which is how that looks.

[Christine]

It does.

[Em]

Right before that, though, you sent me a very lovely picture of Leona and her new stick, and then I immediately.

[Christine]

Ruined it with a bunch of pictures.

[Em]

Yeah. Well, good story, Christine. Sad story, but good storytelling.

[Christine]

Oh, my God, look, here's a picture of the two of them. Oh, I didn't know such a picture existed. This is Curtis in the front. He's also scary Curtis in the. And.

[Em]

Oh, Curtis is scarier.

[Christine]

I know. He's really scary. It was weird watching him do the interrogation. When they told him he failed, he was like, okay, okay, I hear you.

[Em]

You know, it's just like, you know, he was crashing out on the inside.

[Christine]

You're watching this like, I can't believe I get to see this moment. This is crazy. I'm watching this man, like, internally collapse caps while outwardly in his under armour going like, okay, man. Yeah, okay, here ya. Yep. You know.

[Em]

You know, he was trying so hard not to punch a wall.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

It's crazy. He literally has a Bob's Burger chin.

[Christine]

Does he? Curtis, Let me go back and look.

[Em]

He literally looks like how they draw Bob's Burgers.

[Christine]

Yes, he does. He does.

[Em]

I've always wondered what that would look like in real life, but now I know.

[Christine]

He totally does.

[Em]

Huh. Fun. Interesting.

[Christine]

Yeah. Leona has a stick. Apparently, it's been a couple things. Things? She said, you shall not pass a few times. And then she said, this is my tightrope. And I don't know, there are a couple other things.

[Em]

What a good little baby.

[Christine]

Yeah. Because it's apparently warm out for once.

[Em]

Oh, man. What'd you do yesterday when you watched her 24 7?

[Christine]

Had a mental breakdown. No.

[Em]

Okay. Did she?

[Christine]

Well, no. She got a delightful time.

[Em]

Good. Then you killed it. That's all.

[Christine]

Yeah, I nailed it. She. Yeah, I did text you during it. I don't know. But it was fine. We made chocolate covered pretzels. We made chocolate cupcakes. We.

[Em]

I'm trying to remember.

[Christine]

What.

[Em]

Why don't you do that with me? What the hell?

[Christine]

Well, because you don't, like, suck all the life energy out of me and force me to do it against my will. Like, she does a.

[Em]

Thanks.

[Christine]

So, yeah, we did a lot of crafting. We went to the grocery store.

[Em]

Bang.

[Christine]

We played hotel.

[Em]

Oh, let's talk about that on the.

[Christine]

Oh, yeah. I have to tell you what my suitcase looks like. It's so.

[Em]

Hell yeah.

[Christine]

It's so unfair. She gives me the worst stuff because I'm the. I'm like, not her.

[Em]

All right, well, that's all the suspense I need. Everyone hop over to Yappy Hour. Thumbs down.

[Christine]

Thumbs down. I got a. Turn that off.

[Em]

If anyone wants to go hear what is in Christine's suitcase that feels like a mysterious, mysterious story. Tune on into Yappy Hour.

[Christine]

Yes. See us on patreon.com atwb podcast and find us the same handle everywhere you look. And also. And that's where drink.com for tickets to our live shows and links to our book. Okay.

[Em]

We love you, and that's why we drink.