E421 Frenemies in Relaxing and a Mid Nap Yap

Summary

Podcast Summary: And That's Why We Drink – Episode E421: Frenemies in Relaxing and a Mid Nap Yap

Release Date: March 2, 2025

Hosts: Christine Schiefer & Em Schulz
Podcast: And That's Why We Drink
Episode Title: Frenemies in Relaxing and a Mid Nap Yap

---

Introduction & Banter (02:27 – 05:00)

The episode opens with Christine and Em engaging in their typical light-hearted banter, discussing the quirks of working in audio, their love for hearing themselves on the podcast, and the humorous dynamics of their friendship. They act out a playful scene anticipating a reunion, highlighting the chemistry that makes their show engaging for listeners.

Notable Quote:

Christine (02:27): "It's making me feel absolutely insane. Like, I feel like."

Em (02:35): "Is it like when you want to do this, you want to pop your ears?"

Stream and Drink Discussions (05:00 – 14:12)

Christine shares her excitement about starting a new streaming venture focused on cozy activities like puzzles and LEGO building, aiming to create a relaxing environment for viewers. Concurrently, both hosts discuss their beverage choices for the episode, ranging from iced coffees to quirky water cups, adding a personal touch that resonates with their audience.

Notable Quote:

Christine (10:54): "I just don't want to make Jacqueline send us any more free just because I keep breaking it."

Quentin Tarantino Anecdote (14:12 – 18:00)

Em tells an intriguing story about Quentin Tarantino’s filming techniques during the production of Inglourious Basterds. The anecdote about the sudden blood spray on extras to elicit genuine reactions underscores the blend of true crime and paranormal elements that define the podcast’s essence.

Notable Quote:

Em (07:03): "So he did it so that there would be an actual reaction. And I was like, nowadays, I don't think that would fly."

The Legend of Saint Ozith's The Cage (18:00 – 46:56)

Christine and Em delve into a historical true-crime narrative centered around a village named Saint Ozith and its infamous prison, known as "The Cage." They recount the tale of Ursula Kemp, an alleged witch imprisoned and later executed in the 1580s. The story intertwines folklore with documented events, including witch trials, familial betrayals, and the eventual transformation of The Cage into a haunted house and tourist attraction.

Key Highlights:

• Ursula Kemp’s Trials: Accused of witchcraft after a fallout with neighbors, resulting in tragic deaths and widespread fear.
• Discovery of Skeletons (1921): Charles, a local resident, unearths two skeletons in his garden, sparking rumors and establishing The Cage as a site of dark history.
• Haunted House Transformation (1970s): The Cage is renovated into a residence known for paranormal activities, further cementing its eerie reputation.

Notable Quotes:

Christine (34:26): "You had to bring the... hold the talking stick, you know, like."

Em (40:37): "But this is a quote, I think this was from a SMITHSONIAN article I read and I thought was very interesting..."

Modern Case: The Murder of Billy Joe Jenkins (46:56 – 130:44)

Transitioning from historical lore to contemporary true crime, Christine and Em narrate the harrowing case of Billy Joe Jenkins, a foster daughter brutally murdered in 1997. The story unfolds with detailed accounts of family dynamics, forensic investigations, and the subsequent arrest of Shawn Jenkins, Billy’s foster father.

Case Breakdown:

• Background: Billy Joe Jenkins, placed in foster care with the Jenkins family in Hastings, is described as a vibrant and ambitious child.
• The Crime Scene: On February 15, 1997, Billy is found dead with a heavy-duty tent stake embedded in her body, leading to immediate suspicion.
• Investigation & Arrest: Initial focus on a man with a plastic bag fetish is dismissed due to a solid alibi. Shawn Jenkins is later arrested amid mounting evidence, including witness testimonies of his violent behavior.
• Legal Proceedings: The narrative highlights the emotional turmoil of the foster family, the impact on Billy’s birth family, and the complexities of the justice system in prosecuting the case.

Notable Quotes:

Em (109:19): "Doesn't help your case right now. Like, you need to just roll with whatever everyone else. Totally."

Christine (118:37): "So Lois later told the officer that she had more to say about Sean if he wanted to know, but she would only reveal it if he was officially charged."

Emotional Insights & Guest Interactions (130:44 – 131:47)

As the episode progresses, Christine and Em reflect on the emotional weight of the cases discussed, emphasizing the human element behind true crime stories. They share personal anecdotes about coping mechanisms like visualization techniques to aid sleep, adding depth to their connection with listeners.

Notable Quote:

Em (113:34): "It's like the wall from a high school gym. Like, it's like that weird, like, overly painted, painted, like, brick or something, or, like, cinder blocks, whatever."

Closing Remarks & Upcoming Content (130:44 – End)

The hosts wrap up the episode by teasing forthcoming plot twists and additional parts to the ongoing stories. They encourage listeners to attend their live shows, participate in their tour, and engage with their content across platforms, maintaining the interactive and community-driven spirit of the podcast.

Notable Quote:

Christine (129:35): "Which, like, I set off balloons. I'm sorry. Fuck. God damn it. I got to figure out how to turn that off."

---

Conclusion

Episode E421 of And That's Why We Drink masterfully blends historical legends with modern true crime, delivered through the engaging and personable hosting of Christine Schiefer and Em Schulz. From the dark corridors of Saint Ozith's mythical Cage to the chilling murder case of Billy Joe Jenkins, listeners are treated to a rich tapestry of storytelling that captivates and informs. The episode not only recounts gripping narratives but also offers emotional insights, making it a compelling listen for true crime and paranormal enthusiasts alike.

---

Stay Tuned:
Next Episode Preview: The defense strategy in Shawn Jenkins' trial promises unexpected twists and deeper explorations into the psychology of the involved parties. Don't miss out on the continuation of this riveting case!

---

Note: This summary excludes advertisement segments, intros, and outros to focus solely on the episode's core content.

Transcript

[Christine]

There are so many perks to working in audio, having a microphone and being able to say whatever you want, riffing, you know, bantering with each other. It's just a dream. It's my dream. If you're doing what you love to do, there's nothing better than being surrounded by people who love it as much as you do. And if you own your own business, you want to hire employees who love what they do to boost the overall success of your business, plus make it a pretty great place to work. But how do you find passionate employees who are good fit for all of your roles? ZipRecruiter and right now you can try it for [e-mail] Drink ZipRecruiter is the hiring site employers prefer the Most based on G2. How fast does ZipRecruiter smart technology start showing your job to qualified candidates? Let me think immediately. ZipRecruiter's powerful matching technology works fast to find top talent so you don't waste time or money. Hire experienced people who are excited about what they do with ZipRecruiter. Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. See for yourself. Go to this exclusive web address to try ZipRecruiter for free. ZipRecruiter.com Drink Again, that's ZipRecruiter.com Drink ZipRecruiter the smartest way to Hire Madame Ram starring Toni Collette, tells the dramatized true story of Georgia Frontier. A former entertainer turned owner and heavy hitter in the boys club that is the NFL. After her husband's mysterious death, she shocks everyone by inheriting the LA Rams and taking the reins of a major sports franchise. You'll love to see it. Relying on her wit and astrological charts to make decisions. I'm loving this. She turns the NFL on its head and to this day remains one of the most beloved, despised and controversial figures in modern sports. Madame Ram dives into her relentless quest for respect, power and a championship trophy. And it's Toni Collette we all love Toni Collette, Academy Award nominee. Just unbelievable actor. So whether you love football, power struggles, or just a good scandal like I do, Madame Ram has it. Ambition, mystery, and the unforgettable legacy of a woman who refused to stay on the sidelines. The woman who took on a man's world and won. Follow Madame Ram on Apple podcasts, Spotify or wherever you're listening now. Hello Governor. How are you today? Em welcome to and that's why we Drink.

[Em]

Thank you. You sound beautiful. I know you cannot hear yourself today with your.

[Christine]

It's making me feel absolutely insane. Like, I feel like.

[Em]

Is it like when you want to do this, you want to pop your ears?

[Christine]

Yes, that's what it sounds like. Thank you for describing it because I feel like my brother always says he prefers it this way, but to me, it's like I'm muffled in my own. Like I'd rather hear the feedback in my own ears.

[Em]

You just like to hear yourself? Yep. Just be honest. Just obviously, I mean, I like it. I. I wouldn't want it any other way. I get to hear myself talk. Oh, my God, what a dream job we have.

[Christine]

Ah, man, quit bragging. I just hear you today.

[Em]

Ah, you're doubly lucky, Christine.

[Christine]

I know, I know.

[Em]

Christine, I'm so sleepy today.

[Christine]

I'm glad I pushed recording an hour.

[Em]

Let's talk about how lucky I am. Yeah, I.

[Christine]

You just wrote back, like, lol. Okay. And I was like, oh, no. Did I just ruin Em's, like, plans? Oh, no, you just said lol.

[Em]

Sure.

[Christine]

And I thought, oh, I hope. I hope Em wasn't, like, ready to hop on.

[Em]

Never.

[Christine]

So I'm glad to hear you went back to sleep. Hopefully.

[Em]

Always. Always. Good.

[Christine]

Okay, good. Okay.

[Em]

But I've got one extra sleepy line on my eye today, so.

[Christine]

Oh, I see him.

[Em]

I'm not aging. I'm just mid nap. Let's put it that way.

[Christine]

Yeah, Aren't we all?

[Em]

So I get to see you in a week?

[Christine]

Less than a week.

[Em]

I know.

[Christine]

I. Valentine's Day. Say it a little. Hey, let's do another take. Cut. I need you to act a little more excited to see your soul mate next week.

[Em]

Okay. And, well, if you're gonna call yourself that. Are we gonna kiss? I don't know.

[Christine]

Silence on set. Action. What do you mean? To give you.

[Em]

I was hoping for line, line.

[Christine]

Line. Okay. I'm your understudy. Oh, my God. I can't wait to see you, Christine. It's gonna be magical to reunite.

[Em]

Oh, my God, I can't wait to see you, Christine. We're gonna hold hands. We're gonna.

[Christine]

That's why they pay you the big bucks. We've got it, folks. That's a wrap.

[Em]

Okay. Yeah, that's all we're going to do. Just hold hands.

[Christine]

I had to. I had to cut you off before I go, you know, leave something to the imagination before I.

[Em]

Before I really got excited. Okay. Yeah.

[Christine]

Gotta reign you in.

[Em]

Well, are you excited to see me?

[Christine]

I am very well, obviously. Okay. I'm directing. A whole day. My directorial date. It's like your reunion.

[Em]

An acting and directing role. You know, your dual payment. You know what I'm saying?

[Christine]

That's exactly right. I'm a star and I run the show. That's how my All My Home videos were when I was young. Which is, incidentally, very interesting. No, I'm excited. And it's Valentine's Day that weekend, and turns out Blaze is coming with me up to Cleveland, and we're leaving the baby in Cincinnati with my mom. So Blae and I are going to have a romantic night in Cleveland with you, and I can't wait.

[Em]

Oh, you wish you told me that before I needed to get excited about our romantic date, that a man would be there, but. Okay, that's fine. Yeah.

[Christine]

This is. I wanted your. It's sort of like Spielberg. Like, I wanted your real reaction. I didn't want to, like, give that info to you.

[Em]

Like, the Act 2 plot.

[Christine]

Like what Quentin Tarantino does where he just, like, suddenly sprays everyone with blood. So. Do you know how I know that fact?

[Em]

No.

[Christine]

Okay, this is one of my favorite.

[Em]

Facts, because you and Quentin Tarantino spend time in the same asylum, it sounds like.

[Christine]

I wish. Okay, so. So Quentin.

[Em]

Big Q.

[Christine]

The Big Q, or qt, as I call him.

[Em]

Okay, you're just starting my feelings now.

[Christine]

He'll be in Cleveland, too, by the way. Okay, so we were. My. He was filming Inglourious Basterds. Fantastic film. Have you seen that film, Em?

[Em]

Sure have.

[Christine]

Okay, so he was filming that, and there's a scene in Germany. I think he filmed it in Berlin. And it was when my cousin Bernadette was living in Berlin, and she was. She's really big into cinema. And she was like, I want. And Brad Pitt. And she was like, I want to be in this movie. And they were hiring extras, so she was an extra on. In the scene at the end where they're all in the movie theater watching the film, and it's all the Nazis in the movie theater. And so she's playing one of these characters. And actually, if you pause it, which I do every time I watch it, you can find her in the audience.

[Em]

Fun.

[Christine]

But then she told us a story about it after, and she was. So she was saying, like, oh, I could never post about it because they spent hours on her hair and makeup to, like, look like a. But you can't post, like, yourself looking like a Nazi. Right? Like, on social media. So she was like, I could never even put this was like, 10 years ago. She's like, I couldn't even post about it on Facebook or anything because I can't have a photo of me dressed like this. This out there. Right? But she was saying it was so crazy. They spent hours on everyone's hair and makeup. Like, it was huge production, and they had hundreds of extras in the theater audience. And she's like, we were all sitting there, and all of a sudden we just got, like, sprayed with something, and everyone started screaming. And he had, like, not told anyone that during, like, the fire scene or the. He's literally, like, shouting, fire in a crowded theater. But he did it for. For cinema. And she was like. It was terrifying. Like, everybody just suddenly had blood on them. And she was like, but he did it so that there would be an actual reaction. And I was like, nowadays, I don't think that would fly.

[Em]

It would not fly today.

[Christine]

No, it's not cool to do that. So.

[Em]

But at the time, you know, he thought he was. You know, he told somebody, I'm getting these extras, the story of a lifetime. Like, yeah, yeah.

[Christine]

And they can never post about it on the Internet. That's the sickest part of I've ever heard. So that's my fun fact about Quentin, and I did see him several times, because he runs that theater in Los Feels. Or is it in Los Fields? No, it's not in Los Fields. I forget where it is.

[Em]

Or is it.

[Christine]

It's somewhere else, I think. But he runs this Quentin Tarantino theater where they only play his movies, and he goes there all the time.

[Em]

That's like, if we owned, like. Like, a radio station and they just played our podcast all the time, and.

[Christine]

We would just go listen to our own podcast. Like, it's just. It's just exactly how it sounds, folks. But he's kind of such a. He's just a character, you know?

[Em]

Dare I ask, is your cousin Berta that named after Bernie?

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

Does sound like something Barney would also do.

[Christine]

So, I mean, I don't know how he did it, because it's not his kid, but it's his sister's kid.

[Em]

It sounds the same. Spirit tells me that.

[Christine]

I. You know, I don't know that it was necessarily just that, but I'm sure that's part of it. But also, she's the eldest cousin, like, on my dad's side, and he is her godfather, so that is very possible that. That's why. Yeah. So I don't think I ever put that together, really.

[Em]

Wow. Really? The second anyone has any name resembling my father's name at all. I'm like, oh, no, hang on.

[Christine]

When I was a kid. Are you related? My dad had a painting that she made on the wall, and I was always like, I wish you'd put a painting of mine on the wall.

[Em]

You know, if he said, well, you should have been named after me, then it would have clicked a little faster maybe.

[Christine]

You know what's so fucked up? He named me. So it's like, wow.

[Em]

I'm honestly surprised that either of our parents. Either of our fathers did not name us after them. Shocked.

[Christine]

Well, I mean, my brother got something they would the middle name after himself, so.

[Em]

Oh, okay. Well, Dodged a bullet, Christine.

[Christine]

Well done.

[Em]

Is there a reason why you drink slash? What do you drink? I saw an interesting non water next to you.

[Christine]

Thank you so much for noticing. This is my special, and that's why I drink textured cup for all my sensory girlies out there. It's extremely satisfying. And I've broken one or two of them. And because I drop everything I hold ever. And I broke the lid of this, and then I ordered another one through our merch people, but then I broke that one, and then I was like, christine, you need to get it together. So I had to start paying on our website to order Christine, because I just don't want to make Jacqueline send us any more free just because I keep breaking it. So I ordered. I bought this one. You know what?

[Em]

It's about time.

[Christine]

So I know I'm saying I can't keep breaking and then just, like, using our money to pay for it. So I was like, you know what I mean? I can, but sometimes I choose not to.

[Em]

I would let you get away with it, Christine.

[Christine]

I know you would, and you did for so long. And this has iced coffee in it.

[Em]

Nice. What do you put in your iced coffee these days?

[Christine]

So I got. I get the lightly sweetened or not too sweet iced coffee stoke brand from the grocery store, and then I just put some whole milk in it. So it's like, a little sweet, but it's. It's a nice afternoon treat. What are you drinking today, Em?

[Em]

I'm doing the ADHD thing, and I'm drinking more than one drink.

[Christine]

Oh, me too. I didn't know we were on the same page.

[Em]

Oh, you have two fancy cups I have on the table. Well. That you're drinking out of.

[Christine]

I have, like, six different beverage containers near me. How many of them are drinking dirty?

[Em]

I'm just lying on the floor.

[Christine]

Four. What's six minus two? Four.

[Em]

Well, I'M drinking one from a local place and they're for Valentine's Day using heart shaped straws, which is lovely excuse.

[Christine]

That's cute.

[Em]

I didn't know that was possible. Yeah, hang on, let me.

[Christine]

Oh, so it's like the shit.

[Em]

Let me suck along the straw for a second.

[Christine]

That's fancy. I feel like that feels, that feels like an extra expense on their part.

[Em]

That's what I'm saying. And at first I thought like I got a bent broken straw and I was like heart. Like it doesn't look like it on camera. It's a little divot. But I know I'm not crazy because there's also an indent on the straw. Like it's supposed to be there. So it is tiny. Oh, I see. Tiny heart shaped.

[Christine]

Oh my God. That is a wild random accessory that they brought out.

[Em]

Wouldn't you first think, oh, I have a broken straw.

[Christine]

Yeah. I'd be like, give me a new one.

[Em]

They really hoped that I would investigate.

[Christine]

I would be like, give me a new one. As if I would ever fucking do that. They could give me a cup of mud and throw it on my feet and I'd be like, thank you. This is exactly what I wanted with the strawberry.

[Em]

Well, so this is one of the local shops out here where they know my order a little too well and it's a London fog. But I think I'm going to have to stop using them for a little bit because the drink I think is. You know, when we were all 13, discovered a Frappuccino and like we had too many and like it just became like a regular like oh, when you're going to the mall obviously you're going to have a Frappuccino.

[Christine]

Oh, when your mom tried was before the alternative milks became popular. So it was always like whole milk and you would be, I mean I have a splash of it. Right. But like if you were drinking a whole milk Frappuccino Chino or whatever, like oh, your stomach, you know.

[Em]

So I, yeah, I think I need to take some time off just because I'm realizing that, not realizing I knew how sugary and intensely non healthy this drink is. But I'm starting to just feel a little lucky if I drink them. So. And it's not like the, the place is fault at all. I think I just need to not have so much like you're just like cream and sugar, you know, over consuming it. So I'm letting myself have it on Fridays. Yay. And it is Friday when we record that's My first drink. My second one is water, but it's in my favorite cup these days. There. It's the Bratz dolls and it says, dump him.

[Christine]

Wait, I've never seen this before. I'm sorry. This is show and tell worthy. Let me see this. Dump him. Bratz dolls with halos and a hot pink lid. M. Yeah. Where in the fudge? That is the most amazing piece of package.

[Em]

Take one. Guess where I got this fucking thing. Because it is, in fact, Spencer's.

[Christine]

G. Okay, well, that was in my top three. I was thinking Instagram, Spencer's Gifts or Etsy.

[Em]

Instagram. And Tick Tock is a good idea. Is a good guess, but no, this was. I got this from. It is the. God, everyone from Jersey's gonna scream at me. It's the one that's not the Mall of America. It's the Jersey version. I think it's called American Dream, but it's, like, just as big or near the size.

[Christine]

Here, let me piss him off. I've never heard of it.

[Em]

To be fair. I also had never heard of it. And Mall of America is like, I think just a more famous version, but it is the exact same thing. Maybe the sizes are, like, a little off before I piss somebody out there off, but they're the same thing. It's just a massive fucking mall. One whole floor is an amusement park.

[Christine]

Really? Wow.

[Em]

It was very fun, but Tanner and I, we took my. May she rest in peace. We took my Gammy's car out for a joyride when I was last in New York. And we ended up in Jersey and drove to American Dream, where my first stop was Spencer's Gifts. And I bought. Bought this cup. So rip. You know what? The car is still being put to good use. Gams. You're good.

[Christine]

She would have wanted this.

[Em]

She. I would have bought her a matching Dump Him Bratz cup. And she would have been really confused, but would have loved the spirit of it.

[Christine]

She would have taken out her pocketbook and paid for it herself.

[Em]

If she knew I loved it, she would have been like, I don't understand. You are 32. But okay. Hey, girl. You know, anyway, so I'm drinking water and I'm drinking.

[Christine]

Why do you drink? Because of your grandma died. Sorry. I'm sorry. Sometimes my whole personality becomes an intrusive thought, and it's so unpleasant. And I know it is, and I'm sorry.

[Em]

Oh, no, we're good. She's up there. She's chilling.

[Christine]

I'll probably be hearing from her later. And I do apologize.

[Em]

No, I've been waiting to hear from her for five years. She hasn't shown up yet. She should have checked.

[Christine]

Bullying her.

[Em]

You know, you're right. Maybe I'll try that later.

[Christine]

I guess I'm just bullying you. Honestly, it's fine.

[Em]

You're bullying all of us. The whole, you know, dead and alive. The whole. The whole line. Yeah.

[Christine]

It's about time you recognize that. Yeah.

[Em]

Why do I drink? Oh, I drink because I don't know what's happening, but apparently Allison is taking me somewhere tomorrow. It is some sort of planned date that requires a mild road trip, so I don't know where she's taking me.

[Christine]

I feel like it's. I just can't stop thinking about the asylum that I share with Quentin.

[Em]

With Big Q Dog.

[Christine]

Yeah. Maybe she's dropping you off here.

[Em]

She's like, I already filled out the.

[Christine]

Paperwork somewhere, and it's a drive, and I don't know where we're going.

[Em]

She did tell me. She did start it with, we're gonna wake up early, but you can sleep in the car. And I. That does feel a little like. Don't.

[Christine]

That feels like you're going somewhere you don't want to go.

[Em]

I. You know, as I did. She said that there will be a pit stop for donuts, so that should help things.

[Christine]

She's trying to sweeten the deal. I don't know about this.

[Em]

I don't know either. You're right. Actually, as I'm saying, all of it, it does sound like she's slowly gonna, like, into an asylum.

[Christine]

It feels like you're being lured somewhere with the promise of a nap and donuts, which, I mean, to be fair, I've done that to you before, and I've never put you in an asylum. I mean, not the lack of trying.

[Em]

You have. It's because you're also there. It's.

[Christine]

Right. Exactly. I keep.

[Em]

You have to leave to bring me in, you know?

[Christine]

Well, that's right. I keep referring. You like, thinking it's sort of like, oh, you get. You copy and paste, like, 20 off your next. Yeah, I would love to get, like, a month of free prescriptions or something. Benzos or something. But it. They won't let me do that because I'm in here.

[Em]

Well, I am. Yeah. I don't know where she's taking me. I have a feeling she's taking me to, like, the Newport area of California. But we've been there before, and she's got excited.

[Christine]

I was like, why do you think you're flying here? Early.

[Em]

Oh, no, I didn't mean Newport, Kentucky. I'm sorry.

[Christine]

You were like, okay, Christine. Weirdo.

[Em]

What's the name of my town, I wonder? Only because there's a donut place you really like over there, and it's way too far to go unless you're driving that direction.

[Christine]

You mentioned it on a recent episode. I wonder if maybe, like, got her gears going.

[Em]

Maybe. But then she also said, oh, we're going somewhere you don't know about. I don't know how her brain works yet. It's been like eight years, but I still don't totally get it.

[Christine]

Time yet. You haven't quite figured out the formula. I've known her, like, 12 years. I still don't know.

[Em]

So we really. It. You would. If someone saw us communicating, you would think that we don't know each other all that well, because every now and.

[Christine]

Then I'm working on a documentary.

[Em]

She said something earlier this week, and I remember thinking, like, I need you to lie about this because whatever you're gonna say is gonna piss me off.

[Christine]

And don't tell me the truth, please. Yeah.

[Em]

And so I asked, just being like, I wonder if she'd tell the truth. And she did. And I was like. And all I said after that was lie. Like. Like, please need you to get it together. And then I said something. Oh. Oh. She pissed me right off. Recently, where she.

[Christine]

I love this.

[Em]

I had been, like, stacking my snacks, like. Like. Like a crazed person. I had them, like, in a row, and I needed to eat them in a certain order, obviously. And she just grabbed right from the middle, and first of all, didn't even ask if she could have one. And then just took it out of the middle of the row and then shaded. And I went. And you know what I said? There was a pregnant pause. And then I went, you know, to be known is to be loved. And apparently you don't love me because why would you do that?

[Christine]

Wow, that's beautiful.

[Em]

She. Before it touched her lips, she put her right back in the row. She knew what she did. She knew what she did. Wow.

[Christine]

Caught her and shamed her before it even touched her lips. That's amazing.

[Em]

I had seconds.

[Christine]

Maybe. Anyway, honestly, maybe you do know her better. You both seem to know each other better. You just sometimes push the envelope.

[Em]

She seems to respond well to, like, me forcing drama onto the relationship, which is exactly how I like it.

[Christine]

So I was going to say, maybe this is the balance you two just find works.

[Em]

She kind of likes getting yelled at. I think that's how she's operating, it seems. Anyway, I don't know where she's taking me on my surprise, but. So if I know her at all, I know the donut place she wants to take me, which means I know the direction we're driving. Okay. But I really don't know where we're going if we haven't been there before, so I'll keep you up.

[Christine]

Well, I can't wait to find out. Okay, good to know. Now I drink because, well, you know, I wasn't even. Well, first of all, I want to say quickly before I get emails or tweets. I'm sorry if I sounded glib or rude about or, or jokey about mental health asylums. I wasn't, you know, I don't know. I said I have a feeling to refer you. I don't know. I felt like, I think we're from a place of. Yeah.

[Em]

Of insanity. Yeah.

[Christine]

Internal knowing and insanity. So don't worry.

[Em]

Okay?

[Christine]

I wasn't trying, like, mock the concept.

[Em]

Of I have a feeling our, our listeners know where we stand.

[Christine]

I just felt I need to clear there. Second thing, I wasn't even going to talk about this yet because I felt like I wasn't ready to talk about it yet. But then this morning I pulled the emperor card when I did, like my little tarot reading with Leona. Don't worry about it. And so I pulled the emperor and it said like, make a bold move. It was basically like, make a bold move today or, or in your career. Like, take some. Take action. And I was like, you know, why.

[Em]

Am I always at the mercy of your bold moves that are impulsive also. Oh, my God.

[Christine]

Because you like it. Part of you likes it and you know it.

[Em]

You know, that's why this is. To be loved is to be known.

[Christine]

To be known is to be loved.

[Em]

Yeah, I do like the drama. So. Okay, take it away.

[Christine]

Okay. And it's not even about you, really. I mean, I'm sure it'll become about you.

[Em]

Okay, good. Let's get.

[Christine]

We all know all roads lead to the Empire. Okay. Don't worry. But for a moment, I will take the spotlight because I'm going to be streaming for a bit, I think. And I, I really took some time to like, think on, like how I wanted to what I wanted it to be vibes wise and like content wise. I think what I'm gonna do because in the past I've done neopets on stream and like that was really fun. Fun, but it was just a little crazy and I haven't had time to do that again. I think what I'm going to start doing is like a cozy like puzzle hour type thing where I'm like doing a puzzle or doing my, my. I have like a wild west Lego set. So like maybe something like that. And then just chat with people and play kind of like the lo fi, you know, copyright free stuff or whatever. Maybe even like my sister in law's band or something, I don't know. And just like play some music and chat. And I think I'm going to try doing that just for funsies on Twitch. But I did change my username because also as part of that I was like, I want to change my username. So I'm now Stina Bean because as a kid my nickname was Stina and I've always missed that nickname, Stina. And so it's S T E E N A B E A N Steena Bean. So yeah, come follow me on Twitch. And maybe one of these days, probably any day now, I'm going to start streaming there. So come call me. Yeah.

[Em]

Congratulations.

[Christine]

Thank you. The tarot told me to do it.

[Em]

Oh, okay.

[Christine]

An idea I had like yesterday.

[Em]

What card is the emperor?

[Christine]

Yeah, it's like the kind of the masculine side of, of taking action, you know.

[Em]

Nice. So it symbolizes I better pull the emperor card right before I get that box of donuts because I'm about to really take advantage of that situation.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

Do something bold. So. Wow. Okay. Well, congrats on your. What I'm trying to think. Do you have a name for it yet?

[Christine]

Oh, so that's the other thing. I was like, maybe I call it like the missing piece. But that sounds so dramatic. So then I was like, well, maybe just like puzzle.

[Em]

I'm your piece.

[Christine]

I know it's me. Who is it? It's M. At the end we find out it was you all along. I don't know yet. And I was hoping people could help me kind of. But I think the vibe is the vibe of the, the aesthetic of it that I'm, I'm having, I'm on having an artist design, like a nice little layout and all that overlay and the, the keywords I use are like vintage, Halloweeny vintage, but not too cutesy, nice, Victorian esque, kind of, you know, just cozy and uncosy. I don't know, it's a lot of words. Okay. But it'll be, it'll be cozy. It'll be like I'm. I'm thinking of getting one of those fake fireplaces you know.

[Em]

Nice.

[Christine]

Yeah. So maybe when you visit me next week, I'll make you sit with me.

[Em]

Okay. I'll just nap in the corner. I'll just.

[Christine]

Oh, that's actually fun. And we can have like a nap counter of, like every time you roll over or.

[Em]

That'd be beautiful. Every time I snore. You just keep tabs on the whole thing. Actually, that'd be like, you're my everyone. Would be my village aura ring.

[Christine]

That's exactly right. Or someone's. Oh, my God, I love that. The village ordering. We'll count your breaths. Someone will count your breasts. I'll just have a finger on one on your pulse, just in case.

[Em]

Yep. You know, just check. Just put your finger under my nose. Make sure there's breath. That's all I really need. It will look like I'm not breathing. But don't worry, the alive meter will be green. I'll be back for now. Well, that sounds very, very lovely, Christy. I'm very excited for you.

[Christine]

Thank you, Em. This is me forcing relaxation into my own life. Like, you can do a puzzle if you make it part of your work. Oh, my God. It's fine.

[Em]

That's like Allison can't. She's very, very task oriented. And she can only relax if it's on the to do list. It's very odd.

[Christine]

Me too. Yeah. And I can only relax if there's an end product. So up. But whatever.

[Em]

Yeah, I, I every, every now and then I'm like, girl, like, just sit down. And then she's like, but I have to. And I'm like, you have to sit down. That's the rule now. Sit down. And then all of a sudden, you can magically sit down.

[Christine]

Sit down. A clock.

[Em]

Yeah. So I, I could see how the two of you turned out to be your own little frenemies, I suppose, just by trying to accomplish something relaxing. Well, what else is there? Christine, do we have anything we have to plug? I don't think so.

[Christine]

Oh, yes.

[Em]

Oh, yes.

[Christine]

Oh, yes. When this comes out. Oh, well, you'll just have missed our shows. Nevermind. You'll have missed our shows. But we have a bunch of shows coming up, and a lot of them are close to being sold out, and some of them are not anywhere close to being sold out. So please go buy your tickets because we really want to have full houses at our shows. It's so much fun to have a big crowd, especially with drinking, games and all that fun stuff. So make sure you get your tickets. We have a lot of New cities we're going to this year, like, kind of all over the place, so check our website. And that's why drink.comlive. and this is the last time we're doing, as far as we know, this tour, the specific tour. So it's your last shot to see poor decisions, and it's a doozy. And it's one of our favorites so far. If not, it's my favorite so far. Yeah. So come see it live. You just miss Cleveland and Cincy, but there's a lot more coming up, so go check it out.

[Em]

I am excited to go back to my traveling ways for a second.

[Christine]

I know. Feels like it's been a little minute.

[Em]

And I. I am coming in early, but I. I don't know what I'll be doing yet. In your own hometown. If you're. If you end up free, I think I'll just end up on your couch. But if you end up not free, then I'm just gonna go be a tourist for a day and.

[Christine]

Yay. Come play with me. I want to take you to Skyline because I'm still mad that you ate Skyline and said you didn't like it, but you never ate it with me.

[Em]

And I literally ate it with you where you had it ordered.

[Christine]

We ate it. Did you eat it at my wedding?

[Em]

Maybe. Oh, so I've eaten it twice. When on earth have I ever not been near you? This will be the first time ever doing anything in Cincinnati without you if we. If I end up doing something on my.

[Christine]

You and Allison hung out before my wedding and stuff. I thought that's why I would have eaten it.

[Em]

No, no. Do you think Allison's gonna eat chili with spaghetti with chili on it?

[Christine]

I mean, listen, I've probably made her do it before, so.

[Em]

Yeah, we've ordered it. Like, we've. So we've. I've had it at your wedding, and we had it for, like, a dinner one time.

[Christine]

I don't recall. I don't recall. Okay, well, I might make you do it again then.

[Em]

Okay, great. Also.

[Christine]

Super.

[Em]

I'll bring a sandwich.

[Christine]

Hey. All right. You brought.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

You brought lunch meat to my wedding also, so I guess that does track. Yeah.

[Em]

She's getting hungry every time you order this stupid Skyline, so I'm gonna have to get another sandwich.

[Christine]

We're gonna make it work. And I wouldn't even worry about it, Em. Things are gonna change for you mighty soon.

[Em]

Big things. Big things.

[Christine]

And that's a threat.

[Em]

I can sense the tension for sure on this. Yeah. Don't worry.

[Christine]

I caught Blaze using my organ again and I said again.

[Em]

I have been seeing that man of yours and the rippling muscles that are brand new on him. What is going on? Oh yeah, I know it's him stealing your organ.

[Christine]

This podcast is sponsored by Organ is famous for their organic plant protein powder. It packs 21 grams of complete protein with all nine essential amino acids. So I and Blaze know that we are getting the nutrition we need without the things we try to avoid like soy artificial sweeteners which are a no go for me big time Flavors Preservatives plus their products are handcrafted with high quality ingredients that makes it taste delicioso.

[Em]

And Organ is simple. It's made so you can literally just add water and go. No more time consuming prep to get you the nutrients you need. If you are someone like me who just a task is pretty impossible unless it is beyond simple, Organ is for you.

[Christine]

Remember there are no quick fixes when it comes to your health. If you want more protein, give Orgain Organic Plant Protein Powder a try. Head to orgain.com drink and use code drink for 30% off your order. That's the best offer you'll find, but you'll have to use our code drink for 30% off. Today's episode is brought to you by Ollie Clean fresh nutrition your dog needs in five flavors. They'll absolutely flip over. Or if you're geo just kind of like flop over. You don't have to be a veterinary nutritionist to know that feeding your dog real whole foods with minimal processing is one of the best choices you can make for their health. A perfectly portioned whole fresh food diet has been proven to extend your pup's life by two and a half years. And who doesn't want more time with their best friend? So here's how it works. Fill out Ollie's 32nd quiz and they'll create a customized meal plan based on your pup's weight, activity level and other health info. Ollie then crunches the numbers and recommends the right recipes and daily portions for your precious pup based on hundreds of thousands of real dog results. And for any first timers, Ollie will send out your pups for Spocks with two weeks worth of meals and a guide on how to gradually switch them over to their new diet. That's Gia's favorite part because when you switch them over they get like kind of half and half and oh boy does he love it. Ollie offers three meal plans to choose from. You can choose between a full fresh plan, maybe if you just want to use the fresh as a topper or a mixed plan with their freshly baked recipes for your special furry child. So give your pup a fresh start this new year by letting them taste test a personalized meal plan with ollie. Head to ollie.com drink, tell them all about your dog, and use Code drink to get 60% off your first box of meals when you subscribe today. Plus, they offer a clean bowl guarantee on the first box. So if you're not completely satisfied, you will get your money back. That's O l l I e.com Drink and enter code Drink to get 60% off your first box. Start your dog's new year off right with Ollie.

[Em]

Okay, so I have a story for you. Straight out of England. This is the story of the cage.

[Christine]

What? That's creepy. Wasn't there a squirrel cage, or am I making that up?

[Em]

Yes, that is in Potawatomi County. Potawatomi county something, Iowa.

[Christine]

I was. I was breathing in to say, I can't believe how smoothly you just said that.

[Em]

And then you said Potawatomi economy. Potawatomi County, Council Bluffs, Iowa.

[Christine]

I can't believe I don't remember that. That's deeply insane that you remember all of those syllables.

[Em]

When it's something that crazy, you just remember. I don't remember a lot of information, but I do remember that Potawatomi County. That's a squirrel cage jail also, I think different. Yeah. This one's in England. They don't have a squirrel cage jail also. I don't even think they can say squirrel over there. Isn't that, like, one of the hardest words in the American dialect for them to say? Yeah.

[Christine]

Oh, that's funny. I could see that. I don't. I didn't know that.

[Em]

I've seen a lot of interviews of, like, English accent actors all saying the hardest way to fake an American accent is to say squirrel.

[Christine]

That's so up. You know who would put that in all of his. Thank you.

[Em]

And then he'd splatter blood on them and then go, say squirrel and they go, squirrel. Squirrel.

[Christine]

Just look out. Theaters 2026.

[Em]

So the cage is in St. Oth. It's an exit. Oh, me. It's in Essex, England. I saw some websites say that the locals call it instead of it being Saint osa. Saint Oath. Jesus. It's called Tosy Tusi. Apparently they nicknamed it Whatever. We're going with Saint Tosa because I know that that's actually how it's pronounced. Saint Ozith.

[Christine]

Yeah, Ozith. Okay.

[Em]

It does end up Sounding a little like sane toes. St. Joseph. Fun fact. Before it was called that horror name, it was called Chitch, which is at least easier to say. But here is the reason why it switched from Chitch to St. Ozith. There is a legend about a noble woman in an abbess named Oseth, and her father was some royalty, and she ended up being the first abbess in the area of the priory, which is its own big location here. Anyway, so Oith is this noble woman in abbess, and she lived at the nunnery. Priory, whatever you want to call it. And the Vikings raided the town, and they demanded that everyone pray to their gods, but Oth refused, and as her punishment, she was beheaded.

[Christine]

Ozith said no to Odin.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Do you like my fun joke?

[Em]

She said noden.

[Christine]

That's way better.

[Em]

So she was beheaded, and this the only reason.

[Christine]

That's so fucked up. Like, didn't really hit me that that happened until after I made my hilarious joke, and now I'm like, yikes.

[Em]

After you killed it, you forgot that they killed her. You know what I'm saying?

[Christine]

Yeah, that's really effed up. Sorry. But, yeah, okay, so, wow, that seems like a harsh punishment, but whatever.

[Em]

And I like how I also called her having a horrid name when she. Her name is Saint Ozith. So. Wow, we're really not killing it today. Although they are.

[Christine]

I know. What are we doing? I feel like we're on some weird. No, I feel like we're trying to, like, get in trouble. Are we pulling an Allison and, like, eating a cracker out of the middle of the row?

[Em]

I guess. So quick, say something that'll cancel you. Squirrel. Squirrel. Squirrel. Okay, so let's get that out of our system. The Vikings raided the town. They demanded everyone to pray to their gods, but Oath refused. She was beheaded. And the only reason I even mention this, like, the etymology to the name of the village is because there's a bit of a ghost story here where she was beheaded after all this, but then later on that day, ended up resurrecting without her head. Picked up her head, and it carried it under her arm back to the nunnery, and she walked all the way to the nunnery with her head in her hands to warn the others of the Vikings raiding the town. And then she collapsed and died. But after that, the village was named Saint Ozath in her honor for protecting the. The good Christians of the town from the Vikings. Wow.

[Christine]

Okay, so the story goes that she was. So she was still alive. Or was she?

[Em]

I think she was a dead person.

[Christine]

And the did she just resurrected long enough. Okay, so that's why she's a saint, I'm assuming. Because. Because.

[Em]

Yes.

[Christine]

It's just because Catholics love when. When people, like, resurrect, you know, they're all about it.

[Em]

Yeah. Yeah, totally. I do think I saw some source say something along the lines of like, guardian angels carried to the nunnery or something. But. But the main thing is she carried her own head and then told them herself. So, like, the head in her hands is yapping away. You know what I'm saying?

[Christine]

Yeah, I guess you had to bring the. Yeah, I mean, it makes sense if you have to make an announcement, otherwise it's horrible.

[Em]

Horrible game of trades.

[Christine]

Precisely. Really, really gruesome.

[Em]

And, you know, the nuns were going to listen to you. If the beheaded one is the one talking, you're like, I won't ever forget this moment.

[Christine]

You automatically get the floor, I would say. Or the talking stick, you know, like.

[Em]

Holding court for the rest of time.

[Christine]

Yeah, big time.

[Em]

So anyway, fun fact. That's why the town is called St. Ozith. And during the Reformation, 16th century, this is when fear started growing in England of witchcraft. Because of this, parliament made witchcraft punishable by death. Of course, they just have to go. Go big or go home every time. The first time was in the 1540s. Another time was in the 1560s. So there was a law then it went away. Then they came up with law number two, both of them making witchcraft a capital punishment. But there was a difference between the two laws. So the original one in the 1540s, it was pretty law. Ironically lawless. It was that regardless of the witchcraft happening, capital punishment, the second time around, around the new law was witchcraft is only punishable by death if the witchcraft has been found to harm somebody.

[Christine]

Okay, okay.

[Em]

I love that we're growing.

[Christine]

Oh, wow. Yeah. Like leaps and bounds, baby.

[Em]

Fun fact. Then there was a third law later we. This doesn't get brought up. This is like 40, 50 years in the future of the story. But just wanted to say, fun fact. There is a third law that ends up in place where witchcraft becomes a capital punishment again for any reason. So, like it?

[Christine]

We have one step forward, two steps back. Got it.

[Em]

But this is a quote, I think this was from a SMITHSONIAN article I read and I thought was very interesting, which is why I bring this up. Although the law put in place had all forms of witchcraft being punishable by death, the conviction rate with witchcraft actually went down under this law because one of the other things this law did was outlaw the use of torture to get a confession.

[Christine]

Aha. Well, that's a big difference. So maybe we are a couple steps ahead.

[Em]

Interesting. Yes. So we are operating on law two, the middle one. That is only if you're harming somebody. And at this time, the legal procedure for laws against witchcraft involves being the accused at least being examined by the justice of the peace, which is a man. Always, always a man. So they were also, like, elder members of the community, of course. So they're like, I don't know, from a different generation, let's just put it that way.

[Christine]

Men who are going to look at naked women to determine if they should live or not.

[Em]

And if they think you're ugly and maybe unbangable, all of a sudden, you're a witch. I think that's how this goes.

[Christine]

Or either way, I think probably the other way happened too.

[Em]

Yeah. I think if they feel any sense of rejection, insecurity, dislike, disgust, any of those, insert a word, sort of a.

[Christine]

Lose, lose, you know?

[Em]

Yeah. I think unless you are their wife and they like you, you're probably going to be accused of a wit of witchcraft. And on top of it, these, like, weren't even people with legal expertise, of course. They were just like the powerful people in town. So a lot of time it was the local property owner, the one who owned the most property. You just got to also be the justice of the peace.

[Christine]

Yuck.

[Em]

If the justice deemed the accused a potential witch, which happened a little too often, the accused would then be arraigned, they could enter a plea, and very rarely would they ever plead innocent. I'm saying things to you that you and our listeners all know, but just to give you a taste of how this is gonna go, very rarely the accused would ever actually plead innocent of witchcraft. They would plead guilty because they were warned that if they sought forgiveness instead of denying it even longer than there are chances of, of an empathetic or sympathetic jury.

[Christine]

So they're saying, like, take the plea. Like, take the plea. Take the l, say you did it, and it'll be less painful than going through the whole process of a jury who will definitely find you guilty.

[Em]

You get it?

[Christine]

Threat. Okay.

[Em]

But at least you look like you sought out forgiveness and you were, like, admitting the. Which is the first part of the problem is like, accept who you are, girl.

[Christine]

You know, give me the serenity of accepting who I am.

[Em]

Yes. So until their actual trial, or if they were found guilty and awaiting a death sentence or their. Their death row moment, the accused would end up in their local jail. And this Jail in this village happened to be the Saint O. This Ozis cage literally called the cage. The cage was around for at least 325 years. I forget reminder to all the Americans, we are in a different location and things are that old. I know I say it every time, and I'm sure everyone not in the US Is bored of that, but I, I. It's more for me. I have to remind myself every time.

[Christine]

Jim Harrell talks about it all the time too. He's like, here, a house that's 100 years old is considered old. And like in other places, that's a new build.

[Em]

I know. Well, like, my house is like, just had its 75th. Fifth birthday. So mad. I didn't know in time where we would have thrown a party for her. But 75 years old, I'm like, this is the oldest house I'll ever live in.

[Christine]

And it's like, oh, my God, no way. Come on.

[Em]

It just doesn't even occur to me. I would just be like, you want.

[Christine]

To celebrate my house's 150th? Because that's coming up in a couple.

[Em]

Years more than anything, really.

[Christine]

I feel like you're the only other person who will care to do that with me.

[Em]

So if you. I'm telling you now, and I'm not saying this for the audience, I'm saying this for you to really sit on. If I say yes to this, I'm gonna go balls to the wall, and I need you to be matching the energy with me on this because it's gonna be nutty.

[Christine]

I'm so in.

[Em]

Okay, perfect. I can't wait. I already have.

[Christine]

I don't even.

[Em]

I literally instantaneously have five ideas for you.

[Christine]

I'm the dog that's already in the sidecar. And you're like, wait, where did the dog go? I'm. I'm in the sidecar.

[Em]

Yeah, perfect. Okay.

[Christine]

You get it.

[Em]

We will be discussing later. So the cage, the place where it was just a holding cell essentially mid.

[Christine]

Trial, like a 400 year old holding cell. That sounds a 400 year old cage. We're just gonna keep you in here with this beheaded named after this beheaded woman.

[Em]

And like, this is again, just for us. But I don't really think I realized how far away 325 years was. But this thing closed in only 1908. In the 1900s, this thing closed, and it has been open since at least the 1580s.

[Christine]

Oh, my Lord.

[Em]

Okay, so think of how many prisoners have been in there. Think of how many deaths, how Many illnesses.

[Christine]

I mean, that's like a half a millennia. Like, that's so many fucking years.

[Em]

So many years. And at different times, this also didn't just hold men, but women and children. For there, there was huge chunks of time where it was mainly like just like a drunk tank and for a petty crime. But there was certainly some like worse.

[Christine]

Activity sanitizing that thing either. Just saying for like, how would you.

[Em]

Sanitize something in the 1580s?

[Christine]

Yeah, right.

[Em]

You like, just don't cough on it.

[Christine]

Like put manure all over it and be like, now it's clean.

[Em]

Yeah. So anyway, of the people who spent time there, and this is just one of many, she is probably the most famous case to come out of this jail. But I mean, still add 300 plus years of more people. The most famous local case of someone staying at the Cage was an alleged witch. And her name was Ursula Kemp, which Ursula has never sounded to me like a name that doesn't belong to a villain. I always. Maybe that's how they thought that she was a witch from day one. They're like, Ursula the day she was born.

[Christine]

Her mom a hero. That's an Ursula if I ever saw one. Okay, question. Have you ever known an Ursula in real life?

[Em]

No. Only hand drawn. Or Phoebe Buffay's evil sister?

[Christine]

Only hand what?

[Em]

Hand drawn.

[Christine]

What's that mean?

[Em]

A cartoon.

[Christine]

Oh, oh, oh, oh. Why did, why'd you say hand drawn?

[Em]

Because it was drawn by hand.

[Christine]

Oh, okay.

[Em]

Have you ever met an Ursula? Yeah, and she was so evil.

[Christine]

She was stands true, this old ass German lady, I feel. But I mean, looking back, like, it's really sad because we were kids and I didn't realize like the nuance of it, but she was really a mean lady to us. And I was a small child, so I feel like I don't give her that much leeway. But ultimately she ended up up with Alzheimer's and she was in Maryland, like where we would visit sometimes and she would do like puzzles with us and stuff. And I just remember her, like we'd play Scattergories and stuff. She would like call me stupid. She was so mean. And this was like, well, before she.

[Em]

Ever is Ursula, the beginning of your stupid complex.

[Christine]

I'm sure it's right there in the middle.

[Em]

So I know if like we've, we figured it out, you know.

[Christine]

Well, I think maybe. You know what, it's a good, it's a good shout, especially because my dad was there and thought it was very funny. So I think, like, it at least didn't help my stupid complex, you know? Or my interesting inferiority complex. So I think, yeah, Ursula, the one I knew, and she was like one of those scary German ladies where you're.

[Em]

Like, I don't say no, say no more.

[Christine]

You in the eye. Yes. And so I knew one real life, not hand drawn or slow. I don't know what I thought you meant. I'm sorry, I thought you meant, like, you. Someone drew. It doesn't matter. I knew one animated, one hand drawn, one and one. One very evil lady who I think was just sad but treated me not nicely.

[Em]

There's just some names that have that energy to it, but then also it's like chicken or the egg. Like, did it ever have that energy? Or is it just that? I've seen enough people and I'm sure.

[Christine]

There'S plenty of, like, people named Ursula who are just like, nice, lovely, fine.

[Em]

I'm sure haven't met you yet. If you are a nice ursul, come on down. I'll let you know how I feel about you.

[Christine]

Can you change our mind? Because I really don't want my only memory to be of me not understanding what hand drawn means and of that old lady who didn't. Who didn't let me do the puzzle.

[Em]

It's like Chelsea's and Kelsey's. I. I believe there are good. There is good out there. I believe that. Have not seen it with my own.

[Christine]

Eyes just yet, but that's beautiful faith that you have, though.

[Em]

I'm hoping someone will prove me wrong. And if your name happens to be Chelsea or Kelsey and your middle name's Ursula, that's a double whammy in my book. So.

[Christine]

Wow.

[Em]

Whenever you're ready. Yeah. I think Ursula is more of a family name these days, it seems. Yeah. Anyway, so the most famous case to come out of this prison called the Cage is this alleged witch named Ursula Kemp. I will say I think this Ursula probably was, like, a fine person. But, yeah, immediately someone heard her name and had bias and went, no, you're a witch, you're a witch. So Ursula was a midwife, which, of.

[Christine]

Course, a lot of them were the reason. Yeah.

[Em]

Our targets for this. She was also a wet nurse, which also is often one of the reasons that people end up being witches. And she was an herbal medical practitioner, so she was con.

[Christine]

So the name didn't even matter triple. Be honest. Yeah.

[Em]

Oh, and P.S. her name was Ursula, so.

[Christine]

Yeah, right. That just was an afterthought, honestly.

[Em]

So this is again, in the 1580s. To my knowledge, this Is like the beginning of the cages time. I'm. I don't know if the cage existed before the 1580s. So maybe this was like a brand new building and they were just throwing everyone in there.

[Christine]

But they were like, ursula, look, you get the finest cage. You're one of the first modern day cage you could ever find in the 1500s.

[Em]

Well, usually I am pretty neutral on this name, but in this story, we hate the name Grace. Hate it.

[Christine]

Oh, I actually like that name. Yeah. But. Okay, I can get on board with the dislike if it's for the story.

[Em]

So Ursula gets into a few spats with her neighbor grace in the 1580s. Grace, I think, is threat zero here. I think she is the beginning of all of our problems. Because first, Grace goes to Ursula, who was a healer to heal her when she was sick. Grace is like, I'm not feeling right. Can you help me out? Then at some point, although Ursula has healed her and allegedly made Grace feel better, apparently Ursula and Grace argue about the payment, and Grace is like, I'm not paying this. And Ursula gets mad. Now at the same time, a few days later, Grace's symptoms come back.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Em]

Almost as if Ursula did this because Grace wouldn't pay.

[Christine]

Like, reverse the healing, sort of.

[Em]

After that, Grace also got into another spot with Ursula, because although she had used Ursula in the past as a midwife for one of her children, Grace's new baby was going to be taken care of by another midwife. It was probably because they were already in this initial spat, and she was like, this would be really awkward while I'm giving birth and someone is taking care of me.

[Christine]

Yeah. Like, I'm pissed off. I'm gonna find a new midwife for this. This child. Yeah.

[Em]

But I think Ursula probably saw this as, like, I don't know why you couldn't just pay your bill. And now I'm losing additional work because you now don't want me in the.

[Christine]

Room with you to take care of your baby making it. I mean, it can't be good for your reputation if it's like, no, you're losing client customers.

[Em]

Especially when there's like, 10 people in this village. It's like, how many babies are coming?

[Christine]

How many midwives? That's stiff competition. Two midwives.

[Em]

I know that would be extra insulting if, like, she had to call out into another town for a midwife to come in.

[Christine]

Oh, that's teleheal midwife. And you're like, seriously? I'm right down the street.

[Em]

And you know that. Yeah. You know that looks Bad when another midwife is coming into town because you can't do your job, allegedly.

[Christine]

So, yeah, that's got to hurt.

[Em]

So Ursula and Grace. Ursula and Grace are having this huge public falling out because, again, there's, like, 10 people. So if everyone's sitting in the same park in this town, probably everyone knows what's going on. And later on, after this baby has either been born or is being taken care of by the separate wet nurse, the baby dies.

[Christine]

Oh, fuck. Oh, no.

[Em]

And it was something along the lines of, like, fell out of her crib. Like the. Oh, like a classic rock a bye baby situation where, like, Jesus. She ends up falling out while sleeping. And then injuries later led to her death. So between Grace's initial fight with Ursula and then her symptoms coming back and then her daughter dying after the second public spat, rumors quickly spread of Ursula being responsible for both situations, allegedly putting a curse on the family for disrespecting her so many times. And soon the whole town was hearing that Ursula had the ability to not only make somebody sick, but harm, slash, kill them. And they. And also on top of that, they were like. Because Grace's symptoms came back, they're like, oh. And on top of, like, could physically hurt you, she could also make your symptoms come back so she has more work and makes more money off of you. So now she's.

[Christine]

Jeez, that's up. Okay. I hadn't even thought of it like that.

[Em]

So after this, Ursula was a public enemy, I suppose. And although Grace had been the only person at this point who had claimed any of this about Ursula, then more rumors started kicking up and more people started saying, well, I have a story about Ursula harming me. A different neighbor named Alice claimed that Ursula killed her daughter because Alice one time didn't let Ursula borrow something. And then Ursula was later seen outside of that house muttering to herself, probably being like, why the. Won't you just give me this?

[Christine]

I just need the broom for a minute. Jesus.

[Em]

Funny you say that. I wasn't even gonna get into specifics. It was literally cleaning supplies.

[Christine]

I knew it.

[Em]

So it's like, yeah, just like, give me the broom.

[Christine]

Like, okay.

[Em]

But I like how you say broom because. Double entendre with, like, her being a witch. I see.

[Christine]

Ding, ding.

[Em]

Very nice.

[Christine]

Didn't do it on purpose.

[Em]

Well, people see her muttering to herself, and soon after this, Alice's daughter has this weird swollen stomach. Nobody has a reason for it. And she ends up passing away from some sor. Of infection. Oh, gosh. So everyone associates Ursula's muttering to herself with maybe hexing the child for being disrespected. Then another neighbor said that she was walking past Ursula's house with her baby.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Em]

And the baby would just scream every time they walked past Ursula's house, which was obviously an omen. It's like, maybe your baby just. I don't know, hates the look of the house. Maybe.

[Christine]

Like, maybe you are just squeezing the baby tighter every time you walk past because you're nervous, and the baby's like, why are you scared now? I'm scared.

[Em]

And also maybe because babies can just sense. Maybe they. They could sense your stress, you know?

[Christine]

Exactly.

[Em]

Yeah, I like that. I went with, like, this is like, a gay little interior designer baby who's, like, judging the. Out of the house.

[Christine]

I mean, as much as I love that theory and hope that's correct, I just wanted. For. For the sake of, you know, covering all our bases, I thought I'd throw the more mundane. Boring.

[Em]

Thank you.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

See, that's why we balance each other out. I will handle the less likely situations, but the more fun scenarios right down to earth.

[Christine]

Very grounded. Very grounded.

[Em]

Very grounded. You're a no business, no nonsense kind of girl. I know.

[Christine]

That's exactly what they say.

[Em]

So, on top of all this, she's now being accused by three neighbors. Some sources say two. I think they mix two of them up because there's an Annie and an Alice, and I think they get kind of squished together.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Em]

And maybe that's the case. I don't know. But at least two, maybe three nurse neighbors have said something about Ursula. And then on top of that, Ursula's own brother, which. What is the sibling rivalry there?

[Christine]

The dude.

[Em]

Horrible. Like, you know when you go to, like, a Thanksgiving dinner and you have to deal with your parents.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

Like, and you just know they're gonna say something like. Like, what is going on at the Christmas dinner table that they hate each other so fudgeing much. He's like, I'm gonna accuse you of witchcraft.

[Christine]

I mean, listen, siblings have. I know plenty of people who would immediately throw their sibling under the bus like this.

[Em]

I do know that Zandy would call you a witch to the elders for sure.

[Christine]

I mean, honestly, probably not, because he knows I would take him down with me. So I feel like that's a dangerous balance we strike. But, like, especially older generations where maybe there wasn't as much. Like, they didn't foster as much love among siblings necessarily, or maybe there wasn't enough therapy out there. I don't Know, but I've definitely known own siblings who would behave this way, which, like, for spite. Out of spite.

[Em]

Which. So bold.

[Christine]

This is like half for money.

[Em]

This is half. The thing I don't understand about the any witch trial is, like, if you really thought someone could hex and kill you, why on earth are you playing with that fire? Like, I've never understood it. I've never got.

[Christine]

It doesn't make sense. But I think it's that, like, mentality, that mob mentality of like, fear of like, oh, we can't let this person get out of control. We've got to like, get them say.

[Em]

I'll get you before you get prison and killed.

[Christine]

Before they, like, cause more damage. Or before they turn and look my way and kill my baby. You know, I feel like it becomes this almost like they're so dangerous that, like, the town has to unite and put them out of the equation. I don't know. That's my only guess. Cuz you're right. Like, I would not want to be pointing fingers at somebody if I really thought, like, like I would be kissing ass. This should have been like, already believed, like, they killed my baby. I'd probably be in a righteous fury. Like, I do.

[Em]

But there is at least one man out there who. And even. I mean, not only one man, but there's a lot of women who, under duress, said names that, like, they knew were innocent. Like, there's there was a lot of. Well, I guess that part doesn't count. I'm thinking more like the people who are truly accusing.

[Christine]

Who believe it. It.

[Em]

I feel like at least some of them were like, this brother who's like, I'm just gonna say you're a witch because I'm pissed at you for sure.

[Christine]

I mean, I imagine that it's like an easy thing to be. Like, I don't know if she's a witch or not, but I, like, hate her. So, yeah, I'm fine with it. You know, who knows?

[Em]

Maybe they actually just misheard him, calling him her A.

[Christine]

You know, so anyway, she really is a. It's like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

[Em]

I mean, she's been plenty nice to me, but her name is Ursula, so I'm just assuming where things are gonna go, you know? Yeah, that's probably something he said.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

Anyway, on top of all this, Ursula's own brother accuses her of, quote, bewitching his wife who gasped and died. It sounds like a limerick.

[Christine]

Oh, so his. He's now saying that, like, not just, oh, they have Sibling rivalry. Like, she killed my wife.

[Em]

So now she's like the, he's the fourth person, I think, saying that she.

[Christine]

Might actually believe that. Then if he's maybe to go against your own sibling and say, like, I can't believe you would do this to my wife. I don't know.

[Em]

I almost hope so because, like, otherwise, like, at least there's a reason why you're disabled.

[Christine]

Almost. I can't tell if it's. It's all bad. It's all bad.

[Em]

For this case, the case of Ursula, the justice of the peace was this guy named Brian Darcy, of course, a Brian. He is a powerful landowner, very wealthy in this area. And he is a man. And apparently one source told me that he had his own, like, villain origin story where his dad was, quote, bewitched to death, death by another town witch. And this caused his hatred for, quote, sorcerers, wizards, witches and wise women. Ah, not the wise women.

[Christine]

Not a wise woman.

[Em]

Please, God, keep them dumb.

[Christine]

First of all, I've never heard of such a thing. Second of all, not to be afraid of. Don't worry.

[Em]

So fun fact. Which is, I don't know. You tell me if this is incredibly convenient or not. Not. But. So this guy Brian not only see the justice of the peace, but he's a vengeful justice of the peace who hates witches because they, like, killed his own dad. Allegedly. He is friends and works very closely with Grace, the original accuser.

[Christine]

Oh, no. Oh, no.

[Em]

Oh. So all Grace had to do was call up Brian and just go, I don't like this. This girl, you ever heard she's a witch. I think she's a witch. And then Brian went, well, that can't fly. Say no more, certainly. So after all their beef, she called up be rye and complained about Ursula, maybe mentioned that she was a witch. I don't know, maybe said it under her breath. And so now she's been arrested by Brian, she is sent to the cage, she is being arraigned. And during, during her arraignment, that's when you make the plea, right?

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

Okay, so during this time, is this when people testify also?

[Christine]

So the arraignment, I feel like, is when you're set, setting up. I, I don't want to give false information.

[Em]

Well, I, I, I feel like I, my thought is that it's when you're just going in for the, the plea and then the actual trial is when people are justifying.

[Christine]

Right, right, right, right. It's sort of like where you're, it's like where you read your charges. Basically like you're brought in officially to be told, like, this is what, what the trial will be. These are your charges. Do you plead? Yeah.

[Em]

Yes. Okay, cool. So we're on the same page. So yeah, she was being kept at the cage until, until arraignment. During arraignment, Brian did the thing I mentioned earlier where he was like, look, it's going to go a lot easier for you if you just plead guilty.

[Christine]

Just say yes now.

[Em]

Yeah, and I, I think originally she did plead innocent because then she ends up awaiting trial. And while she's awaiting trial, she ends up having another conversation with Brian about like, hey, you really just need to be, you know, during her trial, I guess they had a bunch of people come in and testify one day it was her own son, her own eight year old son. They used her kid against her.

[Christine]

Eight years old.

[Em]

And I don't know if he had a father or siblings or family. I don't know if he like was scared because he's now by himself and I don't know. But they certainly pressured this 8 year old kid enough. And they probably said like, say all these things and you can see your mommy again.

[Christine]

Like something's horrible. Keep her safe, you know.

[Em]

So he ended up telling the court that Ursula was in fact a witch, number one. Number two, she controlled multiple familiars. Two are cats, one was a toad and one was a lamb. This poor baby, these four familiars were Ursula's little henchmen to do evil work. And she kept them alive by feeding them beer and cake. And she would let the animals suckle blood from her body.

[Christine]

Okay, this poor kid, I mean for God's sake. And to be the mom and see your baby come in and know that like they forced him to do, coerced him to do this. This is like, like.

[Em]

And you have to look at him knowing he didn't, he doesn't even know what he's doing is going to kill you.

[Christine]

You just want him to feel okay and safe. Even though like he's basically spelling your death sentence. Like, oh, this is so dark, dude.

[Em]

So while I guess waiting for other people to testify, she's hanging out in the, in the cage. Brian goes to her and says, look, I'm telling you, this can all stop. If you just plead guilty and will be really sympathetic, will be super lenient. Just tell us the truth. And so she ends up obliging. She confesses to having familiars, sending them out to kill her sister in law, kill Grace's daughter, make people sick. And then on top of that, she names other women in the village who were witches to try to save herself, which was very common.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

At the end of this, Ursula and 13 other people were tried for witchcraft in total during this case. Holy shit. It Only two of them, Ursula and then this woman Elizabeth, were sentenced to hang. And before her death, she was again held at the cage. So when she was hanged, same with Elizabeth. When they were hanged, we don't know where exactly they were buried because they weren't given a proper grave. And it would have been on. On. On consecrated ground. But we know that they were buried in an area nearby. We just know it was in the village. They are buried probably near the cemetery, but just off, you know, in a.

[Christine]

In a discarded way.

[Em]

So now let's time travel to 1921. Must be. Yes. In 1921, there's this guy named Charles. Charles lived in the area and he was digging around in his garden and he finds two skeletons on his property.

[Christine]

Oh, Charles. He did. Little Chucky boy. He just wanted big chat. Big Chaz just wanted to put in some little petunias.

[Em]

Petunias, yes, of course. And what do you know? You find two, you can't even Intact skeletons.

[Christine]

Yeah. That sounds just like his luck, huh?

[Em]

Let me. Actually, I didn't prepare, so please hold.

[Christine]

This is so annoying. Can I pee real fast?

[Em]

Yeah. And scene Jack back. So the skeletons, not only were they lying near each other, they were both found with iron nails hammered into their joints.

[Christine]

Oh. Ah, their joints.

[Em]

Which apparently was a way back in the day to keep witches from reanimating and coming back from the grave.

[Christine]

Hey, guess what? It worked, right? So like, sure did with that. Flawless.

[Em]

They stayed put.

[Christine]

Stupid.

[Em]

So Charles believed that these were the skeletons of Ursula and Elizabeth because since they had these nails in them and everything. And that was what you did for witches. These are two mysterious bodies. He lives in a very small village where this is like a. A significant story in the town.

[Christine]

Just like stumbling upon, like, famed legend, local celebrities.

[Em]

Yeah, right.

[Christine]

Like, I'd be like, the fact that Charles was like, oh, I know who that is. So my backyard. That's where they've been this whole time.

[Em]

So because he knew that they were local celebrities, people had always wondered where they were buried, knew the story of Ursula. He decided to put fencing around it, keep them unburied, and then charge people to view the bodies. Here are two video or two pictures for you. I'll send them to the.

[Christine]

Holy shit. Chuck was. I thought Chuck was much more gentlemanly than he ends up being. Being.

[Em]

No, he had.

[Christine]

It. Ends up being kind of a schmuck. Huh?

[Em]

He had his own ways.

[Christine]

Whoa. Oh.

[Em]

So there's no.

[Christine]

No, no, no.

[Em]

One of the bodies. And there's people viewing it. Apparently they were only charged six pence. A six pence? I don't. Which Apparent. I tried to do the math. Apparently it's like $2. Like, it. It wasn't even really a lot of money.

[Christine]

This is really upsetting. And like, just so people know, I mean, we'll put them up on social media, but it literally is a picture of a. A human skeleton laying in, you know, on the ground. And then it says, skeleton of witch found at Saint Osith. Is it Osith? You said St. Os. And it's like, okay, so he's just like, making a tourist trap out of. And calling them witches. I mean, yuck.

[Em]

Yeah. And by. Yeah, so it. It cost us 6 pence. 8. I hope I'm saying that right. English people. I've never had to use 6 pence in my entire life as a word. Um, but I looked up the convers. A 1.6pence is worth 2 1/2 cents USD. So in my mind, sixpence is triple, which makes like 8 cents.

[Christine]

Wait, wouldn't it be the opposite? Oh, wait, yeah, hold on. No, you're right.

[Em]

It ends up being like 8 cents. Like pennies.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

Literally. Yeah, but then. And then I just. That was 1921 money. So I just brought it up and it's like $2 now, but.

[Christine]

Oh, so it's $2 today? Yeah, that's nothing. So you're saying, like, literally the value of two bucks is what they were paying. Okay.

[Em]

Nothing is two dollars anymore. Like a bag of candy, maybe.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

So. And like, you said that, like. Or I don't know if you said this or not, but I. I feel like this is something that would come up in your brain anyway. I'm just assuming because you're so smart. Keep in mind that this was a guess. Like, we don't even know that these were Ursula and Elizabeth. They were just. They could just be random, random people. And, like, their skeletons were now exhumed and they're just put on display for literally the price of, like, Raisinets.

[Christine]

Yeah, good point. Not at the movie theater, though. Like maybe five rais. Five.

[Em]

No, my house costs the same as Raisinets from the movie theater.

[Christine]

Yeah, that's right. That's a better analogy. No, I'm. I'm, like, shocked because now what? Now I'm thinking Well, I didn't know Charles was such a schmuck. I'm wondering now, like, Chuck the Schmuck. Chuck the Schmuck. I knew he was a Chuck all along. Chucky the Schmucky. I didn't know. I wonder now if he. If there's any chance he just, like, planted these, because I'm looking at that one picture. I don't know. It looks pretty.

[Em]

It is perfectly preserved. Isn't it pretty?

[Christine]

Damn. Like, prop, like. But I mean, I guess.

[Em]

I guess in the 20s, they might have had a toy skeleton out yet.

[Christine]

I'm not a toy, but, I mean, you could even get one from. You could acquire a skeleton back then. I don't know, though.

[Em]

He did. He did dig them out of his garden.

[Christine]

They were in his garden. Okay.

[Em]

The bodies have. Well, like I said earlier, these could just be anyone. The bodies could have also just been other women killed for witchcraft, which I guess is a cool story, but it's not the Ursula story. So even if he somehow knew that these are female skeletons and they were buried there instead of on consecrated ground because they were witches, we don't know that it was. I mean, Ursula, Elizabeth were the only ones who died of witchcraft during that trial. But there was, like, I think, 13 women who died throughout.

[Christine]

Oh, wow. Okay, so it really could be somebody else.

[Em]

Yeah, it was 13 or, like, 10 women. It was, like, in the double digits of women who died in this time period for witchcraft, either in this village or the village nearby. So there's a chance it was just a random other woman or a man. It could be anyone. But maybe he knew knew because he knew the Ursula story. He was like, well, this aligns with it, and it will give me the most money. All six pence.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

So now I think if this source is right, it said this was around until 1932, which is like 11 years later.

[Christine]

Oh, my Lord. So he's just had this, like, jacked up carnival in his backyard this whole. For over a decade.

[Em]

That's what it sounds like.

[Christine]

Rigged up carnival.

[Em]

I feel like other stories suggest that it was a shorter time, but the source I'm rocking with is 1932, and Charles is still showing off these bodies, and then one day his house mysteriously burns to the ground. And everyone assumes, oh, they may be dead, but they can still curse people who wrong them.

[Christine]

This is the first time I'm gonna say they sure can. I don't think that is you go girls happen.

[Em]

But if it is, I mean, you're already dead. It's not like, if I accuse you of a witch now, like, what's gonna happen? You know what I'm saying?

[Christine]

It's like, might as well, well learn some witchcraft on the other side, you know?

[Em]

So everyone was worried that this curse was actually very real. And they're like, you know what? Let's actually rebury the bones on the.

[Christine]

Property and eating popcorn over top of them.

[Em]

It took us over a decade, but maybe we should stop throwing trash at them and dropping things on them by accident.

[Christine]

Gross.

[Em]

You know, there's like a drunk who like peed on one of them or something. Like something happened.

[Christine]

People are jackasses. Is.

[Em]

I mean, they're literally like selling their like sisters to the prison system. Calling them, which is someone peed on her, Someone dropped snacks on her, Someone disrespectful threw their ticket on her.

[Christine]

Yeah, and that's not even counting what people probably said. You know, it's just, it just seems bad. I all around and not to say, not to say I'm like holier than thou. I probably would have paid 6 pence back in the day. What the hell else am I going to be doing with my time? So I'm not saying like, like truly.

[Em]

What was going on in the twenties? Nothing.

[Christine]

It's crazy.

[Em]

Back in a small little village.

[Christine]

Yeah. With like Veliska ax murder too. Like. Yeah, I understand. That was like normal back then, quote unquote.

[Em]

Even today I literally go to the Lizzie Borden house because I'm intrigued by the creeps of it all. We go to haunted houses and museums and see.

[Christine]

Yeah. So I mean, I, I do understand it from that perspective, but this guy charging people and then like not even having the real info, it just starts.

[Em]

And it's random bodies so fast past.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

Also this fire that mysteriously burned his house to the ground. If this was going on for 11 years, it's seems like they were fine with it for over a decade. You know what I mean? So why are people associating this with witchcraft? Also, Charles's grandson is the real homie because he pretty much says out loud with his full chest in a news article that his grandpa just drunkenly knocked over an oil lamp and set the house on fire.

[Christine]

Oh my God.

[Em]

That 30 years later, the skeletons have been buried for 30 years again. But they were re dug up during a construction project on the property.

[Christine]

Were they? But they were reburied in the same spot.

[Em]

Same spot.

[Christine]

Okay, okay.

[Em]

They were re dug up though, during a new construction project where they had to break ground again. And the skeleton. I Don't know about both of them, but at least the one that everyone thought was Ursula. Which. How would you know the difference? We're just picking skeletons at this point.

[Christine]

Those are just two women, right? Like, one wasn't a child or thing, right?

[Em]

No, they were just the same size. And we're assuming that they're witches and they're these specific witches, and now only one of them is maybe Ursula one.

[Christine]

Right. Okay.

[Em]

So the one deemed Ursula, I guess, is how I'll say it was then taken out of the ground and to not be harmed any longer or damaged or with the skeleton was then sold to a witchcraft museum in England, but then it was resold to a quote artist. It's giving entrepreneur vibes because really, are you doing really what he was amongst everything else, he was a human remains collector.

[Christine]

Oh, dear.

[Em]

And when. So anyway, he. He liked to collect dead bodies. Apparently, Ursula was not the first.

[Christine]

I'm gonna say a hesitant all right. Right.

[Em]

I guess it's all right. Rock on, girl. I guess. As long as you don't hurt them. So he had the body until he ended up dying. So for years and years and years, he had Ursula quote on.

[Christine]

That was the ultimate addition to his collection.

[Em]

I guess. So his own.

[Christine]

No, his own body when he died.

[Em]

Now that's good. See, that's good.

[Christine]

Finally completed the collection.

[Em]

Yeah, I suppose. Full circle, indeed. Yeah. Well, so when he died, the skeleton was finally returned to Saint Ozeth to be reburied in a different location.

[Christine]

Probably for the best, everybody, because we don't have this person's consent.

[Em]

You know, all that nonsense, fun fact. On the body's way back to Saint Ozeth, an archaeologist was like, let me just check on these bones real quick before we bury them again. And determined they did not belong to Ursula because they were. It was a male skeleton the entire time. No.

[Christine]

Are you serious?

[Em]

And for all we know, a one. That thing that you mentioned, it was rumored that, like, maybe it was just his own family or something, and he just.

[Christine]

Oh, my God. People used to bury their family in the backyard. Like, that is a normal thing. I. Like, this is probably not, if not his, like, somebody else's. Maybe family members or something.

[Em]

We have bodies buried on my dad's property. Like, it's just like some people.

[Christine]

A thumbs up comes through. Yep.

[Em]

But there's, like, there's sometimes people just have, like, family plots on property.

[Christine]

And it's. It's actually very. It's pretty.

[Em]

But, like, how did not a single person who visited this thing or hear about this. Ever think, oh, couldn't this just be, like, the family plot from the people before you?

[Christine]

Well, I mean, maybe they did. Maybe it was, like, contentious, but, like, no one could prove it because it was on his property. I don't know. I also wonder, like, when you said, oh, for all we know, it's a male skeleton, I was like, oh, well, m. That's silly. Like, somebody would have noticed if it was a male skeleton by now. Now I know I'm like, wait a minute. It was the whole time. I know it's like, that obvious, but I'm sure I'm. I know there are some pretty significant differences.

[Em]

Usually, like, in today's world. I feel like most people at least know to check the hip size to see, like, if. If it could hold a fetus in there. If there's, like, womb room. You know, room for the womb.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

Maybe they just didn't think about that in the twenties. I don't know.

[Christine]

I get. I guess. Who knows? I mean, I don't know know. I mean, I probably wouldn't know the difference, but I assume somebody did.

[Em]

So people. Then I think he tried to double down, and him or his supporters were like, well, they were bones of a different witch, just a male witch. And it's like, okay, shut up.

[Christine]

Wait, now you're pushing it. Really pushing it.

[Em]

Everyone's like, end it. The joke is over. Yeah, the gig. Jig is up.

[Christine]

Jig. Wait, which one is it, really? Because I never know. So if I were to say it right now, I would say, all right, everyone, the jig is up. Is that right?

[Em]

I don't know anymore. You, me, up. See, in my. In my mind, I have always said, okay, the jig is. The gig is up. The jig is up.

[Christine]

It is. Jig is up.

[Em]

I think so. But the gig also makes sense.

[Christine]

Thank you. See, now you're. Now I'm winning.

[Em]

I'll never let you have. I'll never let you have Jeff. I'll tell you that.

[Christine]

All right, all right, fine. I'll take this one for now.

[Em]

Is that the little Giovani?

[Christine]

It is. He's really a pain in my ass, but I love my baby.

[Em]

Oh, the BB's. Oh, I get to see him next week. I'll see that.

[Christine]

Oh, hey, wait. I didn't even need to direct you.

[Em]

On that one because I actually get to kiss him. Wake up. Okay, so where are we? Oh, yeah. So he's saying it's still a witch. Whatever. Researchers also said not only is the skeleton male, first of all, why is no one on the case for this other missing skeleton? I don't know. Because there were originally two, remember? Where's the other one?

[Christine]

Wait a minute.

[Em]

But the researcher said not only was the skeleton male, but the iron spikes in the joints were quote, recent additions.

[Christine]

Yep.

[Em]

Designed to enhance the witch story.

[Christine]

Yep, yep, yep. Knew it. Knew this was lucky as hell.

[Em]

Chaz, Big Chad, this. We can tell that you fake this.

[Christine]

And again, you are a piece of work. Work.

[Em]

The grandson, the homie, he also confirmed this and was like, yeah, he does crazy things. Oh, well, okay.

[Christine]

Like set the house on fire.

[Em]

Like set the house on fire and put like iron nails into dead bodies arms.

[Christine]

Grandpa, grand grandpa, his uncle's skeleton or wherever that.

[Em]

To go to your point earlier, what do you do in a village in the 1920s with. No, seriously, just got to kill some time.

[Christine]

If you're eccentric like Chuck obviously was, maybe you got to bend mor your morality a little bit.

[Em]

Well, that is a very long tangent that I guess is shared in this. That I had to share in this story. The topic of the Cage itself is just a jail that housed Ursula Kemp and several other people over centuries of time. But she is the most famous witch to come out of this town. She was also in this prison, this holding area that is also incredibly haunted. All that to say the. The Cage was a jail that held out on top of many other people, 1500s witches. It remained a jail until 1908.

[Christine]

Oh my God.

[Em]

And then in the 1970s, it was renovated into a house and it even kept the alley in the back where prisoners like where dead bodies would get like was that taken out to the ambulance?

[Christine]

A selling point. Like they even kept the original alley to the.

[Em]

It's liter called Coffin Alley because that's where all of the jailers literally.

[Christine]

Selling point. Yeah. I mean, it must be to someone.

[Em]

It even has a plaque. Let me see. Let me. Actually, this is wild to you also. What's it called? The Cage plaque. So that is the plaque on the house today. And the plaque says the Cage Medieval prison. Saint Oth resident Ursula Kemp was imprisoned here before being hanged as a witch in 1582. And it was last used in 19. Oh. So that plaque is still on the building to this day. It is still called the Cage and someone.

[Christine]

It's just a house.

[Em]

It's just a house. Immediately, the house was rumored in town to be haunted. And several people moved in. Several people moved out. They claimed that books and other items would fly off the shelves. People broke their leases incredibly early. Some people Only made it a few weeks or months there.

[Christine]

Oh my gosh.

[Em]

And one tenant even ended up dying by suicide in the early 2000s. And the story goes that he was hearing something in the house and it drove him to suicide. Which that's neither here nor there, but it is a fact of the case. And that obviously either way, maybe that was a rumor that was spread, maybe it was actually part of maybe a mental health situation he was dealing with. Maybe it was the paranormal. I don't fucking know.

[Christine]

But either way, it's. It adds to how it is.

[Em]

So it's associated with the energy within.

[Christine]

Yeah, it adds to how dark this place cases.

[Em]

Nine months after this man died in the house. It is now the year 2005.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Em]

And the house sat empty for those nine months after he passed. And now 30 year old Vanessa moves back home to her hometown of St. Ozith and is looking for a house.

[Christine]

Oh, girl.

[Em]

And Vanessa stumbled upon the cage. She was fascinated by it. She remembered walking by it as a kid, not ever really thinking about how haunted it was, but she just remembered always being drawn to the house. And now that she's moving back, she saw that it was available, bought it for just under $200,000. Fun fact. And when she bought it, the realtor told her, the house has chosen you.

[Christine]

Yeah, you know, he was waiting to say that or they were waiting to say that.

[Em]

And Vanessa believes in ghost now. Let's just put it that way. You will find out about it next week.

[Christine]

No, Are you serious?

[Em]

Is.

[Christine]

Oh my God. Okay. Wow. That was a doozy.

[Em]

So that is The Cage Part 1.

[Christine]

Goose Cam from a cliffhanger. Oh my gosh.

[Em]

Thank you.

[Christine]

Wow.

[Em]

You'll find out next week. Originally that was gonna. The reason I'm tired is because I was trying to get all of the notes done. And then while I was looking at the notes, I was like, this is easily two episodes. So I'm just gonna know.

[Christine]

Hey, I'm just gonna give you a little spoiler. Same thing happened to me. Which is why again, I had to push an hour. I had to push a day and then an extra hour of recording. Because the story I'm covering is one of those where like, as you go, it's like, wait, oh, I have to include this. Oh, wait, I have to include this. And it like ends up being such a long story. And you're like, I felt like a very standard kind of, you know.

[Em]

What it, you know, teed me o was that I was really trying to. I thought I was going to do this entire story today. And had I decided early on that, like, oh, I'm actually just gonna do the Ursula Kemp part of this story, I wouldn't have even had to work yesterday. Like, the notes. Those notes were already done.

[Christine]

And oh, my God, I'm gonna untuo, because I'm gonna. I'm gonna t you on. On. No, I don't know. But either way, hey, here's the good news for the next episode. You're set.

[Em]

I know. Easy, Bruisey.

[Christine]

That's gonna be the best feeling when you're like, oh, I have to do. No, hold on.

[Em]

That's what happened the last time I was like, these two parters. I don't hate them all of a sudden.

[Christine]

Nice about it. Speaking of which, this is the story of Billy Joe Jenkins. Now, this is a case that I had had Saoirse's help with, and Saoirse even said, like, hey, this is becoming a longer story than expected. And then once I got my hands on the notes, I found more stuff that was even like, we were trying to squeeze it into a one parter, and then I found a whole nother avenue that hadn't even been touched yet. And I was like, oh, so it. It spoilers. This is also a part one, Part two, too.

[Em]

Man, look at us go.

[Christine]

We've never done that, have we? I've probably said that, like, three times. We've never done this before.

[Em]

At that. At this point, I don't know, because I have heard. I don't know, maybe someone else weigh in. Nothing hurts my feelings more than finding out that I have just been losing money.

[Christine]

It is.

[Em]

I've been losing it this away. I've been losing it that away offensive. Thankfully, Rocket Money has been like, girl. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps you. You find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings and not just throw it in the trash like I was doing.

[Christine]

We all have been there. It's okay. They're your. Your wingman in this. You know, like, they'll. They know you up, but it's okay because they've been there. We've all been there, and they're going to help you through it.

[Em]

And they'll even try to negotiate lower bills for you. So not just get rid of them, but they'll try to just lower the bills of the ones you need to pay. They automatically scan your bills to find opportunities to set save, and then you can ask them to negotiate for you, and they'll deal with customer service, which, hello, that alone makes me want to use them forever.

[Christine]

It's great. Rocket Money has over 5 million users and has saved a total of $500 million in canceled subscriptions, saving members up to 740 a year when using all of the app's premium features. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money. Go to RocketMoney.com Drink today.

[Em]

That's RocketMoney.com Drink RocketMoney.com Drink last night.

[Christine]

Leona and I made the smoked Gouda Goodles. And I need to let you know that Leona has become obsessed. She pulls the boxes out and they're so colorful and every day we pick a new one. She's gotten so obsessed with Goodles that I'm like, do I just reach out and say, like, do you take three year old affiliates? It's the ultimate comfort food, but nutrient packed has protein, prebiotic fiber, vitamins and minerals from plant sources.

[Em]

You just said that Leona is very drawn to the colors of the boxes. And as a someone with a three year old brain, I also am very drawn to the colorful boxes. I don't know what it is. I think it's the best marketing they could ever do. I was obsessed before I even ate them. But Goodles Mac and cheese comes in a variety of options. They also have vegan and gluten free and they're a low glycemic index food, so there's steady energy instead of the carb crash, which is what I always suffer from.

[Christine]

It's also kosher and clean Label purity award certified. So please go get your hands on them. You won't regret regret it. You've got to try Goodall's Mac and cheese. And don't forget their nutrient packed pasta too. Pick some up when you're out shopping.

[Em]

Goodles is available nationwide at major grocery stores and retailers. And we know you're going to love Goodles as much as we do.

[Christine]

All right, so this is the story of Billy Joe Jenkins. Billy Joe Margaret Jenkins was born on March 29, 1983 in east London to Deborah and Bill Jenkins. And when she was young, her father was sent to prison. Her mother struggled to care for her alone. And so for a while, she was living with her younger sister Margaret and their aunt. But she was later placed in foster care while her sister stayed with her aunt. So in June 1992, at age 9, she was placed with Lois and Sean Jenkins in Hastings. And the last name, I don't know if you caught that, but she was Placed with another family with the last name Jenkins. And it's a coincidence.

[Em]

So she's not the Hastings. Sorry, sorry.

[Christine]

No, Hastings is the town where they.

[Em]

Oh, in Hastings.

[Christine]

Okay, Sorry. In Hastings. She's placed with Lois and Sean Jenkins.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

The town is called Hastings, apparently. I was listening to the red handed episode on this story, and they were. They were like, why does everyone from east London move to Hastings? And I was like, I don't know. Great question. I'm like, I have no idea what they're talking about. But I was like, this is so interesting.

[Em]

Well, I have. I have no concept of barely u. S. Geography, but Hastings is the name of a town I have heard multiple times. So I'm just gonna roll with. They're on something.

[Christine]

Me too. I think. I think that what they were saying is it's like a town that's close to the city, but, like, it's almost like how people move to the suburbs, I think was the vibe I was getting. You know, like, people move out to Hastings and like, settle in with their kids, that kind of thing. That's what it seemed like. And then there's the battle of Hastings, which they also mentioned.

[Em]

That's why I know it.

[Christine]

That's the other reason. Yeah. So the Jenkins in Hastings are different from. From the Jenkins in London. So she is just placed for foster there. I imagine it makes it easier to foster someone with your same last name. But I don't know if that's true. But either way, it's just a coincidence. The mother of the family, Lois Jenkins, she had grown up in a large fostering family. And so she was really excited to take Billy in, but she already had four other daughters, so this would be their fifth daughter in the house. And Hastings was a huge change from London. Just to give you an idea, the population is 90,000, approximately, compared to over 7 million in London.

[Em]

Dang.

[Christine]

Okay, so it was an adjustment for Billy to. To kind of get into this small town routine, but she was a very confident kid, so she kind of adapted quickly. She was the life of the party. She was, you know, fun, full of life. She wanted to be a star someday. She wanted to be an actor. Her friends would have voted her, you know, like, most likely to become a movie star, go to Hollywood, that kind of thing. She was just like such a bubbly and entertaining person. Her little sister Margaret, who I mentioned earlier, stayed with her aunt and, like, remained living with her aunt when Billy was put up for fostering. Margaret considered Billy as the best big sister. She admired everything about Her. She remembers that Billy. Billy dreamed of working for an airline so she could travel the world someday. And that. I know. And that she knew she was gonna be, you know, going places and having these big dreams. Even though they didn't live together, they spoke on the phone often. And sometimes Margaret would come to Hastings to visit Billy. But she did note that Sean, the dad, always kind of put her on edge, as though she felt that he was making her to feel like her family background was less than because they had, like, financial and class superiority.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

And she said even as a child, like, visiting her big sister, she felt like her foster family judged her background and. And, you know, thought they were like. Or from, you know, weren't the same level of class, you know. So despite this, Billy's Aunt Maggie really believed that putting her into foster care was the right decision, especially with this family. She said the family seemed happy and well off. You know, they were excited to care for her. This is all very foreshadowing, of course. Fun fact, side note, side tangent. Real quick, because this is something I had to ask Saoirse about. So Saoirse has a background in very specific. I mean, we had talked about this recently on an episode, and they study Irish is one of the things that they are very familiar with. So I was like, well, you would know because Sean is spelled S I with this. Oh, sorry. S I O with a circumflex. No. Oh, that's Siobhan, but.

[Em]

Oh, Siobhan. That's what it is. Okay, sorry.

[Christine]

This one is spelled S I, O, N, but the O has a circumflex, which I guess in Welsh is referred to as. Now, I'm gonna probably butcher this tobac. And it means little roof. Because he has a little roof. I know. It's like, that's precious.

[Em]

I like how in. You know, what I appreciate is that in your true crime stories, you will desperately search for a fun fact before things are really crazy.

[Christine]

Okay. It's really odd. I literally. That works. Yeah. Saoirse sends me 11 pages, and then I'm like, hey, I'd actually like to add something else. I have a question about the language of. Of this whole story. And so it was really, really helpful. I just meant, like, is it pronounced like Sean, question mark? And Saoirse was like, well, I have a background in Irish. And I was like, see, this is why. This is why I need. I needed this. This is a fun fact, people.

[Em]

Okay. At the end of the day, we're all going to be sad, but just Know, little roof.

[Christine]

Right.

[Em]

That's all matters. Little roof.

[Christine]

If you take nothing else with you today, just remember in the Welsh they call it little roof. Okay, so, side note, Sean, the original Irish name which means John, se a n, you know, with the. It has a accent. I guess it's called the fada. So originally it's se a with the fada and then N. But then a lot of people who like move outside of Ireland or, you know, don't use it with the traditional. They. They take off the accent. Right. Because it's easier for paperwork. And it, you know, it's probably easier in a lot of ways. So that's how Sean S E A N kind of became normalized, like in the US without the accent.

[Em]

That is a fun fact, because I definitely ever. Oh, what?

[Christine]

No, it is. But I want to finish the fun fact, which is that S E A N without the accent actually means old. It's like a completely different word. So if you take off the accent, technically it's just. It's the word old, which is very fun. So I think you.

[Em]

You skipped over the other fun fact, which I was unaware of. Maybe everyone else in the world was, but I didn't even know Sean was a derivative of J. John had no idea.

[Christine]

Oh, yes. No, I said that it means John. It's like the, the version of John.

[Em]

I know, but I'm saying you just taught me that. I didn't know that.

[Christine]

Oh, oh, sorry, I thought you said I skipped over it. Yes, yes, it. It's John in.

[Em]

Makes total sense. Had no idea. It's kind of like, like Will and Bill. Like, it's like a. The rhyming situation. But I. Sean and John, I had no idea that that was where they came from. From.

[Christine]

Interesting, right? Yeah.

[Em]

Anyway. Okay.

[Christine]

Anyway. So if your name is Sean, it's actually old.

[Em]

It's. Or John, so good luck. It's a. It's actually no matter what, it's not Sean, so you'll never know.

[Christine]

Yeah. So Sean S I O with the circumflex N is how it's spelled. And I just wanted to make sure that's how I was supposed to pronounce it. Etc. So. So let's get back into it. We're going to talk about Shawn and Lois. This is the foster couple, the foster family, the two parents that took Billy in. They were financially stable. Lois worked in social services, and Shawn had recently been been appointed deputy headmaster at an all boys school, which.

[Em]

Hey, girl.

[Christine]

Very high futin. Their house in Hastings was located a Mile from the scene, sea, across from like a beautiful park, a sprawling park. The family was very busy. They had work, school, they had lots of social activities and extracurriculars. I mean, with five daughters, you know, they're, they're very busy. And so that's kind of how they are known around town. Now let's jump to February 15, 1997.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

It's a Saturday, and it's a normal but hectic day for the Jenkins family. Lois is grocery shopping. Shopping. Billy and her sister Annie had chores to do. And their sister Charlotte, who they called Lottie, had a clarinet lesson. So as part of her chores, Billie was assigned to paint the patio doors. They're these like French doors to the patio. So she is assigned to paint the French doors. While painting, Billy got paint on the glass and some of the patio stone. And her foster father needed to clean it up with white spirit, which I guess is a paint solvent that in the US we call mineral spirits. Do you know about this?

[Em]

Nope.

[Christine]

Okay, me neither. Because they were talking about white spirit on the like a drink red handed. No, but they were like, oh, well, who doesn't have a bottle of white spirit for like paint? And I'm like, what, what is that.

[Em]

Just like their version of paint thinner or something? Something.

[Christine]

Oh, it is paint thinner. Yeah. So I guess, I guess you would just call it paint thinner then. Yeah, yeah.

[Em]

I wouldn't know anything about the brand. I mean, that's even mineral spirits.

[Christine]

Yeah. I wonder if that just.

[Em]

I would have just flipped the patio stones over so no one saw that I spilled. I wouldn't have even done the paint.

[Christine]

Theater thing big time. But it's a cleaning solvent. I don't know, I don't really get it. But he basically needed to go buy some to pick some up to get the paint off of, of the patio stones and the window. So Sean took Annie to first go get Lottie from her clarinet lesson. So Billy was now at home alone painting. And while Billy stayed home painting, everybody else was out. So Lois took the two youngest daughters and the dog out for a walk. Shawn, who was picking up Lottie from Clarinet with Ann. Annie came home briefly. Then took both Annie and Lottie again to go get the white spirit at like the store.

[Em]

Sure.

[Christine]

And Billy stayed home. This is just the timeline of the day. Okay, so just before 3pm, Sean and the girls return home from their visit to the store. Annie and Lottie walk out to the patio and start screaming. Screaming. They had found Billy, their sister, lying on the ground completely covered in blood. Sean ushered the girls out of the room and called 999. Neighbor Denise Lancaster rushed over, tried to kind of feel Billy to see if there was any sign of life. She felt that she was cold to the touch. She was bleeding profusely and disturbingly. As she kind of looked down at her, she noticed a piece of plastic almost coming out of her nostril.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

And she starts pulling it. It's a plastic trash bag that has been, like, shoved up her nose.

[Em]

I. Okay. First of all, I can't even think about the actual sadness of. I can't even process that. The physicality of how that's possible is a different story completely. I don't even know how you do that.

[Christine]

I mean, it could have been a small.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

Whatever it was, it was a bin liner. Like a trash bin line. Sure.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

And. Yeah, it was just shoved up her nose. Yeah. Really. Yeah. Really horrific.

[Em]

So some. Okay, so.

[Christine]

And, like, chilling in, like a weird, Weird.

[Em]

Yeah. And my immediate takeaway is, like, so obviously something happened there that someone did not try to hide. And she. How do we know how long she was home alone for? Like, was it like an hour? Was it, like.

[Christine]

So the general consensus. See, there's not a general consensus. So Sean. Sean claims it was like 45 minutes to an hour.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

I believe. I believe, if I recall, like, 45 minutes, maybe, he said. However, let's just say that's debatable.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

Or has been debated in the past.

[Em]

Got it.

[Christine]

So Denise notices this. Oh, it's horrible. And has to pull it out. Like you said, it was, like, somehow really forcefully put in there. She had to really forcefully remove it. But, you know, there may have been the fear of just, like, choking on it. Who knows? I'm. I imagine in that moment you'd be like, I need to fix this. You know, you're like, probably would jump in to do that, which you are.

[Em]

With a crime scene, which, like, sucks. But I would have done the same thing. I wouldn't even think about it. Yeah.

[Christine]

There's a little girl there. Like, priority is, you know, make sure she's okay. So who knows? But. So she pulls that out of her nose, and it. It's, like, hard for her to yank out, but she has to pull it up because it was.

[Em]

Oh, my God.

[Christine]

Okay, I'm moving on now, everybody. I'm sorry. So on the 999 call, Sean sounded confused. He first said Billy had an accident, then claimed he wasn't sure what happened. Then they asked if Billy was breathing, and he responded I don't know. I haven't looked a little bit odd. Look, when paramedics. I haven't looked.

[Em]

Give look. Give looking a shot.

[Christine]

Yeah, give a quick look. Give a quick look.

[Em]

Scan the room. You.

[Christine]

Yeah, your. Your small daughters are the only other ones. And your neighbor maybe. Maybe go to. Yeah, it's just whatever. Okay. So when paramedics arrived, they initially passed the house. And so Sean went outside to redirect them, but then instead of going back into the house, he goes into his car and sits in his car.

[Em]

I don't like the smell of this at all, I'll tell you that.

[Christine]

I don't either. I don't either. And. And is he in his car for a while?

[Em]

Okay, sure.

[Christine]

And you know, at the time, of course, this is an emergency situation, they're not necessarily paying enough attention to that. They're focused on Billy. So they go find Billy's body nearby. They realize she has not had an accident, but she has been bludgeoned to death. Death with a heavy duty tent stake.

[Em]

Oh, my God.

[Christine]

And I'm talking not like a flimsy rod one.

[Em]

Yeah, no, the. Like a railroad spike.

[Christine]

Yes, a huge metal long iron pipe, basically. And they could tell the attack was frenzied, opportunistic, you know, not like carefully planned, obviously.

[Em]

Well, it's like you only got so many minutes before everyone comes home. Home.

[Christine]

Well, I think they meant more like whatever happened, this person just reacted violently. Like, it wasn't like, oh, I pre. Planned. It was like whatever happened here happened like it was ignited here. I don't think like a crime of passion sort of thing. Not necessarily like a premeditated murder, if that makes sense. They. They. Because, I mean, there's just a. Somebody had just grabbed a camping stake, I assume. And you know.

[Em]

Right. But I'm saying, like. Like we're saying the same thing. I think I'm just coming at it from like, the. Like they realized they only had so much time to do what they needed to do, so they just kind of grabbed what they had and they knew, like, someone could come home at any moment. So I'm just gonna do this and.

[Christine]

Well, I don't know. I think more just like. I don't know the right word that, like, that the person didn't plan it. Like there was no. They didn't know they were going to do this today. Like, they didn't. They didn't know going into it that this would happen. Okay, does that make sense that it just like. Like a. I don't. What's it called. Is that called a crime of passion? Like, heat of the moment? Sorry. Sort of.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Yeah. I think that's. That's sort of the only thing they. They could really tell was that it was opportunistic in that, you know, they grabbed what was nearby and just went for it. And it was very frenzied, very, very brutal, very bloody. Now, of course, the neighborhood immediately panics, and they're thinking, like, oh, my God, there's just this killer on the loose who. Who's wandering around killing children. You know, like, brutally attacking children. And the backyard where Billy was painting these patio doors, their back patio is very open, so you can, like, really easily kind of. It's pretty open access to other housing and other. Other families. So first of all, you'd think somebody would have heard something that. I guess not. But second of all, you know, now people are thinking somebody just wandered by, spotted her. Her and, like, came after her, Killed her, you know?

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Killed her on the spot. So, that being said, a hotel employee reported a man in crisis with a noticeable facial mark who had been acting strangely near the Jenkins home sometime in recent history, recent memory. So more witnesses came forward and said, wait, I also happen to see that man recently. And he was wandering around the park across the street, and he was acting erratically, and people were unsettled. It, of course, you know, was a mental health crisis. So, you know, looking at it from that perspective, it wasn't deliberately menacing. But when police took him into custody, they realized a bizarre detail, which is that this man also had a plastic bag fed fetish.

[Em]

Oh, my God. Okay.

[Christine]

And he was known to have plastic kind of on him at all times. When they searched him, they found him chewing on plastic. They discovered pieces of plastic in his socks and underwear. And, you know, it just seemed like a strange coincidence.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Given the certainly I stuffed into her.

[Em]

Knows, I would certainly be noticing that. Yeah.

[Christine]

Yes, it's definitely worth noting. He was incoherent, he was unresponsive. So they weren't really able to properly question him. So instead, investigators gathered witness statements about his whereabouts so that they could make a timeline of where he was based on sightings of him. And. And it wasn't him because they put together a timeline, and he had a very solid alibi. Witnesses clearly remembered him on a certain bench at the time of the murder, and it was far from the Jenkins home.

[Em]

I guess it would be too easy. It. It. I guess in. In the world of story writing, yes, it would be too easy.

[Christine]

Imagine. Imagine that that was part one, you know, the end. I already told you, there's a part two. So. Yeah, unfortunately, we all knew it wouldn't be.

[Em]

Yeah, but yeah, how. What are the odds? This would be a classic.

[Christine]

Isn't that weird? That's like chilling.

[Em]

You would think that's a. A case closed situation of like. Yes, we found them easy.

[Christine]

It. I mean, I'm glad they did thorough enough investigating to make sure that he had an alibi, you know? Yeah, like, I'm glad because if he wasn't able to speak for himself, I don't know, you could see how they could just be like, eh, he clearly did it, you know, I'm glad they did the proper investigating. Anyway, he wasn't the guy. So fast forward nine days after Billy's death. The date is February 24, 1997. Police arrive at the Jenkins home and arrest Shawn for the murder of his foster daughter.

[Em]

Well, I kind of sensed that he'd at least be a suspect, at least.

[Christine]

So. Shawn appeared surprised, but remained calm. He asked if he could shower and shave before leaving. And the police were like, no, we've.

[Em]

Got a schedule that we're working on here.

[Christine]

You're going to jail right now. Please, come on. Yeah, these are handcuffs. You're not gonna shave right now.

[Em]

Put your shoes on.

[Christine]

We're not gonna give you a sharp metal razor right now.

[Em]

Great point that you're about to put next to your throat. Yep. No need that.

[Christine]

Right? Like, what are you thinking? So the police were like, no, you're being arrested. He then asked if he would be gone for a while. And the officer said were like, yes.

[Em]

Babe, you're being arrested. Like. Like, this isn't. This isn't like a lunch date. Like, you're not coming back right now.

[Christine]

A quick pop in, you know, this is a. An arrest situation. And so they said, yeah, it will be a little while. And they were like, maybe you should bring a book. And I loved that. And then one of them pointed out a book on the table and said, oh, is. Is this your. And he said, yeah, it is. It was Silence of the Lambs. And he was like, yeah, I know what a.

[Em]

Which, like, I will give him credit if someone arrested me in the troll hole full of like, paranormal paraphernalia and true crime skulls and.

[Christine]

Right.

[Em]

It would not be cute.

[Christine]

And like, who doesn't have a copy of Science of the Lambs, you know?

[Em]

Yeah, everyone's got a Stephen King something. Jesus Christ.

[Christine]

Christ.

[Em]

Oh, my God. I'm so sorry, everyone. I just some. My alarm Summoned all of us. What was that?

[Christine]

M's wake up alarm is so effing loud.

[Em]

It has to be that loud or I won't wake up.

[Christine]

I know. And it's terrifying when it goes off in the room with you because it's.

[Em]

Like, what's wild, too, is, like, that at that volume when I'm sleeping. I've slept through it, and there are videos of, like, the phone being right here as loud as possible. Gospel, and I'm just snoring through it.

[Christine]

It feels fake. I don't know how you. You must be astral projecting somewhere. There's no way. I do call it react.

[Em]

I call it going to the beyond. Because I'm like, that's right. I'm not of this world anymore.

[Christine]

Oh, my God. I broke into Wallace last night, and I was like, thank God I'm broken to walls. I was so tired, and I was like, I've had such bad insomnia. I was like, all right, I better focus. Nothing really happened. I just fell asleep. I was just, like, so grateful for your. For your trick.

[Em]

Isn't it a fun way to fall asleep, though? It's, like, pretty easy. It's weirdly easy.

[Christine]

I don't understand how it works, but it works.

[Em]

It. I think it's just, like, tell me.

[Christine]

That it works for you, or is it just me and M? Like, are we just.

[Em]

For those of you who need to know, I literally just envision Wallace is a wall named Wallace.

[Christine]

Oh, didn't we talk about this on the podcast?

[Em]

We did, but in case anyone else is like, what the was that? And I don't want to go back.

[Christine]

I was so afraid for a minute that that was never discussed, and I was like, I sound so.

[Em]

Imagine if you invented it and I'm hearing it for the first time.

[Christine]

No, don't say that. That's so twisted.

[Em]

No, Wallace is a wall that I. It started as me trying to meditate into falling asleep, and I accidentally flew too close to the sun, and now it puts me in. In the beyond, and I'm able to.

[Christine]

Astral project, like, access a parallel dimension.

[Em]

It worked a little. A little too well. But basically, it's like, in my mind, it's like just like how you described this the other day as, like, the wall from, like, a high school gym. Like, it's like that weird, like, overly painted, painted, like, brick or something, or, like, cinder blocks, whatever.

[Christine]

Concrete.

[Em]

Yeah. In my mind, the wall looks like that, and I just, like, get near it, and I start, like, punching it or, like, grabbing at it until, like, the texture changes into putty and I can, like, climb in. And by the time I climb in, I'm, quote, falling. I've fallen asleep. It's like.

[Christine]

It's like, weird. It has worked multiple times. I said, oh, I did that last night. And Em said, how'd it go? And I was like, I don't know. I felt right.

[Em]

Eventually. Eventually, if you punch it hard enough, it just gets softer and softer and then it just gets stretchy and you just kind of find your way on the other side of Wallace.

[Christine]

And then I never.

[Em]

And now you're in the beyond. Now you're in the beyond.

[Christine]

I mean, seriously, it's kind of amazing.

[Em]

I think I cracked the case on how to trick yourself into falling into sleep.

[Christine]

So, I mean, it's really helped me. So, yeah, just worth a shout out anyway, so. Silence of the Lambs. Yes, it belongs to him, but he hesitates for a moment and decides against taking it. Probably. Good move, Sean. As he's led away, Lois is sitting on the stairs just sobbing. Sobbing like, just totally beside herself.

[Em]

Yeah. And not only, like, sad that you just experienced the trauma of someone dying, the fear of, like, what happened and is that person on the loose and are they going to hurt me again later? Then your husband being arrested, whether or not he's guilty is hard. And then wondering if he's guilty and have you missed the signs all along?

[Christine]

And great point.

[Em]

I mean, just so many.

[Christine]

Having four other daughters to suddenly have.

[Em]

To comfort and like, and wondering if something happened there. And also on top of that, wondering, like, is your own. Like, this should not be your first thought, but, like, as a foster, like, is your own reputation soiled now? Like, are you ever going to be able to foster again because of this crisis? You know, this is so like, losing something that's really important to you and you grew up with on your own. Like, so it's a. Every. Everything shaky to have to have.

[Christine]

Like, I imagine there's a. There's a special. I don't know, guilt or fear of when you're watching. When you're fostering someone that you're meant to take care of because they were displaced in a way that they didn't have the proper care. And now it's almost like you failed at that.

[Em]

Yeah. Feeling like a failure or like you're.

[Christine]

Like you're.

[Em]

You're Were not a safe person. Like, you maybe thought you were.

[Christine]

Like, you wanted your home to be a safe place for this child so that because you. You felt for her and yeah, that must be just heartbreaking.

[Em]

Like you said, they're worried about their own trauma of, like, wow, you were already, like, going through something before you came here, and now, like, I've only, like, made things, like, more vulnerable or unsafe for you or made you feel panicky. Yeah, it's just.

[Christine]

It's. It's. Yeah, it's terrible. No, you're right. I don't think I'd actually really realize, like, how many of those layers were there. Yeah. Until you mentioned it. And Lois, man, she's. She goes through it, this gal. So now this is just kind of a random aside, but I really. Saoirse included it in the notes, and I just thought it was, like, a sweet moment, I guess. And you don't get many of those, like we mentioned in my stories. So a family liaison officer, Flo. I don't know if they're called Flows or Flo's, but they're special investigators in the UK who work closely with victims families, which. I love that that exists. I don't know how the process works, but I love that that idea exists to ensure that the family receives updates and, you know, can also be close to the family and maybe gather evidence through interactions with the family as well. So it's like they work closely. They're a liaison to the family. And one of them was assigned to the Jenkins family. And the. The officer who was assigned to their home recalled feeling genuinely upset that Shawn might be guilty because, like, the way that Lois was so devastated and the fact that this was his foster daughter, like, he just remembered being like, I really hope that that's not the case. And apparently, while at the house, he accidentally put an electric kettle on the stove. Stove instead of a regular kettle. Like, he was so kind of distracted and discombobulated, and it melted and started smoking. And Lois rushed into the kitchen, panicked. And I guess just off the cuff, the guy said, this is what we do to break the ice. Don't worry. And apparently she started laughing for the first time and, like, through her crying, and I guess, like, yeah, it broke the ice between them, actually.

[Em]

She needed that.

[Christine]

Yeah. It was almost like this moment, I guess, that they talk about in the documentary of, like, oh, this is kind of where she sort of softened to him and maybe calmed enough to open up a bit. And it just seemed like a nice. A nice little anecdote.

[Em]

I mean, it was probably like. I mean, like, in the spirit of comedy, it was, like, breaking the tension. But, like, it. I think it also, like, physiologically broke her tension. For a second.

[Christine]

Absolutely. Because the second you kind of laugh while you're crying, I feel like that really does. Does, like, almost switch. Switch off the tears a little bit.

[Em]

It gives you a second to breathe at least once.

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree. I agree. I totally agree. So Lois later told the officer that she had more to say about Sean if he wanted to know, but she would only reveal it if he was officially charged. And I thought that was interesting, and I don't know why that is. I. My. My theory, which is just a theory of mine and mine alone, is maybe she didn't want to risk him coming home if she kind of ratted him out. She didn't. She wanted to make sure he was away before she.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Told on him. I don't know. I don't know. But either way, she said she would wait to tell them what she knew until he was officially charged. Charged. So Sean was questioned because hundreds of microscopic blood droplets were found on the clothing he was wearing the day Billy was killed.

[Em]

Oh.

[Christine]

Forensic experts said it was like sort of an aerosolized blood spray, if you can imagine. Like, just teeny droplets, sort of like.

[Em]

So like, almost like a paint can from far away.

[Christine]

Yeah, exactly like the spray of a paint can. And. And they said it was consistent with what would be found on an attacker. But Shawn denied this, saying that when he found Billy, he moved her and he saw a bubble of blood form in her nostril. And he said it either popped or retracted, but that's how the aerosolized blood got on me. I mean, I. Horrific. Horrific. Either way, a forensic theory then emerged that Billy may have died with a blockage in her airway, so possibly a blood clot, which could have built up pressure. And then when Shawn moved her, maybe a fine mist of blood came out. But it. Forensic scientists kept trying to replicate it, and they couldn't make it work, and it just seemed unreasonable, so they kind of tossed that theory. Sean was initially released on bail while they investigated this, but when they couldn't hold up this theory at all and that theory couldn't be proven, he was arrested again and then formally charged with Billy Smith. Oh, you know what? I hope he got time to shower.

[Em]

I hope he knew They. I hope they called him in advance. Like, we're coming over. Get your stuff together. Get another book.

[Christine]

Yeah, get. Yeah, please. Pick a better. Read the room. Pick a better book.

[Em]

Yeah, exactly.

[Christine]

Pick a Brene Brown, maybe. Then come with us.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

So hundreds of people attended Billy's funeral. Sean was not present. Billy's birth mother, Debbie woods, specifically requested that Lois Jenkins not attend either.

[Em]

I kind of don't blame her.

[Christine]

I don't blame her. I don't. If she's hosting the funeral. I mean, listen, I don't. Well, also been in a scenario like this, but I don't feel I'm in a place to critique.

[Em]

You know, I also feel like. I mean, like, if your daughter. Whether or not it was. We don't know who did this just yet, but. But especially because it was up in the air. We don't know who's responsible. But my child was left in your care, and now this happened.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

I. I don't know if I would want to see you right now.

[Christine]

You know, on an emotional level, to even look at you. It's not even about, like, oh, you're exactly. And I think that's the spirit that it was done in, especially because one of Debbie's friends defended Debbie's decision, saying, Lois is obviously grieving. That's a foster mother. Lois is obviously grieving as much as anyone, but she is married to the man charged with murdering Billy.

[Em]

Like, not.

[Christine]

Not the time. Mom can't take this right now. Right. Like, it's a lot. Despite this, Lois attended anyway and brought all of her daughters.

[Em]

Ooh, that feels first of all bad. Yeah.

[Christine]

I didn't like that.

[Em]

That. That almost. This is such a weird thing that almost makes me think that the family is guilty all of a sudden, just because I'm like to have. Have that. I understand wanting to go and pay your respects, but to do it disrespectfully, like, after being asked to not be there, feels like you think you've got some sort of brazen entitlement.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

During such a. During such, like, a really vulnerable moment. It's like the most vulnerable moment.

[Christine]

The most vulnerable moment. And it honestly was. It was not a good look. It. Like you said, it just didn't. And it also didn't end well. When Debbie saw that them. She was reportedly horrified. She fled the church, sobbing, and she missed the entire service and the burial. She didn't attend her daughter's burial.

[Em]

I don't blame her. I. I wouldn't be. If the potential killer or relative of the person who killed the person I love the most in the entire world just appeared after being asked to, like, respect my wishes.

[Christine]

When you. When you were expecting not to see them, especially, like, the shock.

[Em]

And you are expecting to have the worst. Save your life already.

[Christine]

Yep.

[Em]

I'd be like, I. Like, first of all, like, there's no way to ruin this day for me. But you found a way, you know.

[Christine]

But you somehow found a way. That's a great way of putting it. Like, how did you make the worst day of my life even worse? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. No, I found that really disrespectful. And this really, really deepened the divide between Billy's birth family and her foster family. I mean, just so weird that their names are both Jenkins. Also. It's like. Like, it's Just can't get the stars.

[Em]

Aligned in a really up way that day.

[Christine]

Exactly, exactly. Billy's father, which I love. His name is Bill. Billy's father. Bill had once hoped to regain custody of his daughter. And in later years, Billy's younger sister Margaret actually reflected on this, and she said, we thought Billy was going up in the world. We were so proud of her. She was really going to make something of herself. And so it just. Just like her birth family was just so devastated. Because I think there was also. On both sides, there are different, I imagine, like, nuances to the. To the guilt and the. The. The grief. But for the birth family, you know, you think like, oh, I'm sure they feel like, oh, we. We shouldn't have put her up for fostering. We shouldn't have. You know, would, coulda, shoulda, woulda. I feel like on the birth family's part was really intense.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

And so just a very tough time for everybody. And that's not to say her foster family didn't suffer either. I mean, I think that the friend made a great point of, like, you know, of course Lois is. Is grieving as well, but, like, we just.

[Em]

There's a time at a place, and there's a hierarchy here.

[Christine]

Yeah, there's a hierarchy here.

[Em]

And there's also. It's. This is a very awkward situation that you are firmly in the center of. Like, you.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

You are not the person who gets to call the shots currently.

[Christine]

Yeah. Not when the guys in. Is charged with the murder.

[Em]

And not only that. Not only that, but when he's not just charged for the murder, but then being like, oh, can I shave? And like. Like being kind of like a bit of buffoony during this. It's like nothing's helping your case right now. Like, you need to just roll with whatever everyone else. Totally.

[Christine]

Right. And it just created more animosity between the families. And then as Shawn's trial did begin, which was April 1998, they had so much damaging character evidence against him, Lois herself broke her silence and revealed that Shawn was violent she alleged that he once hit her so hard that it perforated her eardrum.

[Em]

Oh, my God.

[Christine]

And that he had strangled her in the past as well. While Lois said she had never actually seen Shawn hit Billy, she described that he had what she called vein popping rage. Yeah. Oh, my God. I set off balloons. I'm sorry. Fuck. God damn it. I got to figure out how to turn that off. I swear that wasn't on purpose.

[Em]

It's almost a jump scare. It's not even that it's funny. It's just actually just.

[Christine]

Just, like, adds to the horror show. Yeah, yeah. It, like, makes it scarier.

[Em]

How do we. Someone reach out to Apple.

[Christine]

I know how to do it. It's. It's. I just always forget before we record, and then I hold up two fingers and suddenly everyone thinks it's a party. Like, how many times do people actually have parties on here that they think, like, balloons are going to be required every time someone says the number two. Okay, so she had alleged. I apologize about that. That he had once hit her so hard it perforated her eardrum and that he had strangled her again. She said he hadn't. She hadn't seen him hit Billy, but he had this vein popping rage toward Billy, which is huge. Red flag. Doesn't.

[Em]

Doesn't help.

[Christine]

Certainly doesn't help. No. So then other witnesses come forward. One of them is a family friend named Peter Gamester. And he testifies that Sean had been violent toward Billy and he had seen it himself.

[Em]

Oh, boy.

[Christine]

Yep. He says that on a family vacation to France, Billy had sprained her ankle and Sean accused her of faking it for attention and sent her to bed as a punishment. Later that night, Peter heard Sean enter Billy's room. And when he went and looked in to be like, what's he doing? He saw Sean kicking Billy violently in anger. And he later or he said in court, this is what he testified. There is no such thing as a playful kick. It was a proper aggressive, aggressive kick. Because I imagine maybe they cross examined him. More like, could it have been a playful kick? And he's like, you can't playfully kick your own child. Sorry. That's nothing. Nice try. So other school friends later revealed that Billy once came to school with scratches on her face and neck. She broke down crying when they asked what happened and said that Sean had been hitting the family dog, and she tried to intervene, so he picked her up and threw her against a door. Another friend recalled Billy wearing a scarf, and they realized that she was hiding bruises underneath it. And apparently one month before her murder, she had told multiple friends, quote, I had an argument with my dad again. You can guess what happened.

[Em]

O man, this guy's going away. Wow.

[Christine]

Now this is where I tell you, you, Shawn's defense will be part two.

[Em]

Is that the end of the episode?

[Christine]

That's the end.

[Em]

Christine, I'm sorry, but I'm not all right. I didn't like that. I would like to know what happens next, man. I mean, he's going away. I just protect predicting things here. It will be quite a plot twist if he. He isn't the one that ends up in jail for this.

[Christine]

No comment. Except plot twist.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

Well, there is a little bit of plot twistiness and you're not gonna like it.

[Em]

I will tell you the whoever is guilty is at this moment in the story, really thinking they're gonna get away with it. Then they're just like, man, they found the perfect prime suspect. I'm just gonna sit back. Made in the shade.

[Christine]

Okay, not. Not quite. You're not there yet.

[Em]

But I'll figure it out eventually at. By the end of the story, probably.

[Christine]

When? As soon as I tell you, you'll know exactly.

[Em]

I'll know eventually. Don't you worry.

[Christine]

No, no, you're. You are. You're pretty much on point. But yeah, there's some. There's some twistiness, some weird side quests and some strange updates that I have for you next week.

[Em]

Okay, well, great. Ha. And with that, thanks for coming to the show, everyone. We are going to do our yappy hour and. And keep chit chatting.

[Christine]

Keep the good times rolling.

[Em]

Yeah. Weren't we supposed to do something this week? I feel like we hadn't it.

[Christine]

Oh, yeah. What was I supposed to do with you this week? There was something special. Why would we not write that down?

[Em]

We never do. We always think we'll remember.

[Christine]

I'll go back and listen and find out. And then we'll do whatever it is that we promised we would do last week. Because I remember being pretty excited about it.

[Em]

Isn't there a quiz or something? Something supposed to. Supposed to show things? Anything to show?

[Christine]

No.

[Em]

We'll figure it out.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Em]

Please come to our Poor Decisions tour. These are the last shows of Poor Decisions before we retire the show. And until we figure out what we're going to do with our previous tours, it will be extinct essentially until we in the vault. That's a great way to put it. All right, well, thanks everyone. And that's why we drink.