E422 Nostalgic 90's Tarot Cards and A Block Party of Ghosts

Summary

And That's Why We Drink – Episode 422: Nostalgic 90's Tarot Cards and A Block Party of Ghosts

In Episode 422 of "And That's Why We Drink," hosts Christine Schiefer and Em Schulz blend their signature mix of chilling ghost stories with riveting true crime narratives, all while sharing personal anecdotes and reflections that add depth to their discussions. This episode, titled "Nostalgic 90's Tarot Cards and A Block Party of Ghosts," delves into the eerie histories of haunted locations and the dark underbelly of online interactions, all set against a backdrop of nostalgic 90's references.

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1. Host Banter and Personal Insights

The episode opens with Christine and Em engaging in playful banter, discussing their experiences with tarot cards, lucid dreaming, and astral projection. Their conversational chemistry sets a relaxed tone, allowing listeners to connect with them on a personal level before diving into the more intense topics of the episode.

• Lucid Dreaming Experiences

  Christine shares her unsettling experience of almost achieving astral projection during a lucid dream:

  [06:02] Christine Schiefer: "I almost astral projected last night... I got too scared."

  Em relates by recounting her own vivid dream of befriending Idina Menzel, highlighting the blurred lines between dreams and reality:

  [07:14] Em McCory: "I had a dream last night that I was friends with Idina Menzel... That feels like that shouldn't be real."

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2. The Haunted Cage – A 300-Year-Old Jail's Dark History

Transitioning to their primary content, Christine and Em narrate the spine-chilling story of "The Cage," a former 300-year-old jail located in St. Ozith, England, which has since been converted into a residential home infamous for its paranormal activity.

• Historical Background

  The Cage was originally used to imprison women accused of witchcraft, with Ursula Kemp being the most notable prisoner before her execution:

  [26:28] Christine Schiefer: "Ursula Kemp stayed here before she ended up being hanged for witchcraft. And that's what it's most famous for."

• Paranormal Phenomena

  Over the decades, tenants have reported a myriad of supernatural occurrences, including unexplained footsteps, moving objects, and apparitions. The house's dark past seems to permeate every corner, creating an atmosphere of constant dread:

  [32:12] Em McCory: "She said there were literally layers of spirits here because they would range from nice to malevolent."

  Notable events include the sudden appearance of a black mask floating through doorways and the manifestation of both benevolent and malevolent spirits, making the residence one of the most haunted locations in Britain.

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3. The Abduction of Alicia Kozakiewicz – A Terrifying True Crime Case

In one of the most harrowing segments of the episode, Christine and Em delve into the true crime story of Alicia Kozakiewicz, a 13-year-old girl who was abducted in 2002 through online grooming by an adult predator, Scott Tyre.

• Online Grooming and Abduction

  Alicia's introduction to the internet led her to online communities where she eventually befriended Scott Tyre, who manipulated her trust over several months:

  [95:11] Christine Schiefer: "She met him through instant messenger. He introduced himself as a boy her age."

  On New Year's Day, Alicia agreed to meet Scott, only to be violently abducted and held captive:

  [117:41] Christine Schiefer: "She was in his car, and he told her, 'If you don't stay quiet, I'll put you in the trunk.'"

• Rescue and Aftermath

  Just moments before Scott intended to harm her further, authorities intervened, rescuing Alicia and apprehending Scott thanks to an anonymous tip and advanced tracing methods enabled by the Patriot Act:

  [123:03] Em McCory: "She was rescued less than 30 minutes before Scott was due to take her for a drive."

  Although Scott was sentenced to 19 years in federal prison, early release in 2019 led to further legal complications, including additional prison time for parole violations.

• Alicia's Advocacy

  Surviving the ordeal, Alicia transformed her traumatic experience into a mission to advocate for children's online safety, earning an MA in Forensic Psychology and working with organizations like the International Center for Missing and Exploited Children:

  [122:49] Christine Schiefer: "Alicia became an advocate for children's online safety... She educates children and parents about the dangers of being online."

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Notable Quotes and Insights

Throughout the episode, Christine and Em pepper their narrative with insightful and poignant quotes that underscore the gravity of the stories they share:

• On Trauma and Recovery:

  [95:30] Em McCory: "Trauma cannot be measured by time... It's about the impact that an experience has."

• On Paranormal Activity:

  [32:27] Em McCory: "They started hearing the sound of babies crying at night. Fire tools would move around by themselves... It was dangerous."

• On Alicia's Advocacy:

  [122:57] Em McCory: "Alicia teaches in her talks that trauma cannot be measured by time."

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Conclusion

Episode 422 masterfully intertwines personal anecdotes with gripping true crime and paranormal stories, providing listeners with a blend of entertainment and sobering lessons on the dangers lurking both in the shadows of haunted houses and the depths of the internet. Christine and Em's ability to navigate these heavy topics with empathy and insight makes for a compelling and memorable episode.

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Note: Advertisements, introductions, and outros were omitted from this summary to focus solely on the core content and narratives presented in the episode.

Transcript

[Christine Schiefer]

There are so many perks to working in audio, having a microphone and being able to say whatever you want, riffing, you know, bantering with each other. It's just a dream. It's my dream. If you're doing what you love to do, there's nothing better than being surrounded by people who love it as much as you do. And if you own your own business, you want to hire employees who love what they do to boost the overall success of your business, plus make it a pretty great place to work. But how do you find passionate employees who are good fit for all of your roles? ZipRecruiter and right now you can try it for [e-mail] Drink ZipRecruiter is the hiring site employers prefer the Most based on G2. How fast does ZipRecruiter smart technology start showing your job to qualified candidates? Let me think immediately. ZipRecruiter's powerful matching technology works fast to find top talent so you don't waste time or money. Hire experienced people who are excited about what they do with ZipRecruiter. Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. See for yourself. Go to this exclusive web address to try ZipRecruiter for free. ZipRecruiter.com Drink Again, that's ZipRecruiter.com Drink ZipRecruiter the smartest way to hire Ryan Reynolds.

[Em McCory]

Here from Mint Mobile with a message for everyone. Paying big wireless way too much. Please, for the love of everything good.

[Christine Schiefer]

In this world, stop with Mint. You can get premium wireless for just $15 a month. Of course, if you enjoy overpaying.

[Em McCory]

No judgments. But that's weird. Okay, one judgment anyway.

[Christine Schiefer]

Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment of $45 for three month plan equivalent to $15 per month required intro rate first three months only. Then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See full [e-mail] starting the episode with is really strong.

[Em McCory]

Do you. Are you an Ummer or a Hummer?

[Christine Schiefer]

I'm an. No, actually I'm an. What are you. You're a. You're a. Huh. Aren't you?

[Em McCory]

I think I like some. It's a mixed bag, I think.

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah. Yeah. We like to keep them guessing, you know.

[Em McCory]

Yeah. Happy four. 22. 22 is my lucky number. Well, 22. It's almost both of our lucky numbers. If there was a nine in there.

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah, that's unfortunate. But I'll just take the four. And that's okay.

[Em McCory]

When we get to episode 4922, then.

[Christine Schiefer]

It'Ll really be our 4922. Yeah. Perfect. Although it could be 2249. That might take half the time. So maybe we do both ways.

[Em McCory]

We should really celebrate the almost 5,000th episode. That'll be crazy.

[Christine Schiefer]

Oh, certainly. I think we'll be celebrating from our tombs at that point. But, yes, we will be. Wow. Welcome to episode 422. We realized after 420, we never did anything fun for it. And with 4 22, it just kind of showed up. I don't feel any particular. Yeah, right. I don't know. I just feel kind of like, what. What am. What do you want?

[Em McCory]

I was on episode one, and now here I am 400 episodes later, and I'm. What happened?

[Christine Schiefer]

Feels like we just got dragged here. I mean, trust me, it's been a fun, fun ride, but I don't know where. Where and how and why.

[Em McCory]

Well, how. How are you, Cristina? Why do you drink this week? What do you learn this week?

[Christine Schiefer]

Oh, you know what I was thinking? Okay, so I have my. No, I've become really nutty because I knew this would happen when Eva and I came up with the plan, the joint plan to get everybody a Stanley cup, including ourselves, for Christmas. And so, you know, she also sent, like, accessories. Right. Talked about. And I was like, I don't need an accessory. That's ridiculous. And now I'm like, oh, I have my little. Yeah, like, it's stupid. I have a little thing for my, like, weed vape. I have, like, this little cloud that covers the top just so dust doesn't fall in. Like, it's just. I've become. And my sister jokingly said, don't tell me you have one of those things that holds your phone. And I was like, and my vape and my wallet. And she was like, oh, no. And my AirPods. Anyway, it's a whole thing. And I've. I've really realized, like, today I kind of had to come to a screeching halt and go, like, this is getting a little out of control, Christine. Like, rein it in.

[Em McCory]

You know, I do wonder, like, what the, like, development team at Stanley was thinking when they did that. They were like, it's a purse for your cup, but actually, let's make it an actual purse. Like, you know?

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah, now it's. Now it's. It's like, do you want a little water with your purse versus, like, do you want a little purse?

[Em McCory]

It's like how your iPhone was supposed to be a phone plus other stuff, but plus music.

[Christine Schiefer]

Right. And then it's like, wait a minute.

[Em McCory]

But now it's also. It just happened like a phone is a side effect at this point.

[Christine Schiefer]

It's like, no, nobody wants to use that part of it. That's. That's like old decrepit technology. We don't need that.

[Em McCory]

Yeah. Why?

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah, I'm just gonna Zorg Blast you instead. That's what. That's. You'll know I'm there.

[Em McCory]

I'm sorry. Zorg Blast was a crazy thing to say.

[Christine Schiefer]

I was, I was channeling Xenon. Literally, not figuratively. I was literally channeling her. Sometimes she pops in and she's like, I have something to say.

[Em McCory]

She really.

[Christine Schiefer]

I got this, Stanley. Like, you think it was me? No. X.

[Em McCory]

That is a. That was a possession moment for sure. She Zorg blasted you.

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah, I got zorblasted. Right. In my own eyes.

[Em McCory]

We saw a shirt that says I got Zorg blasted by semen and all.

[Christine Schiefer]

I got was a stupid T shirt. Yes. And yes. And the other thing is. Although I wouldn't really want to mock my own trauma like that, but I guess if it's for money. If it's for merch money, sure. So what was I gonna say real quick? Oh, so that's what I'm drinking is. I just wanted to warn everyone if I. If it comes in screen, I have a very kind of minimalist background otherwise. And then all of a sudden this appears. So I just wanted to give a little bit of a heads up about that. And. Oh, I do put my Zoloft in it as well because I have a little like pill case and it fits.

[Em McCory]

I mean, it feels worth it if you couldn't fit yourself.

[Christine Schiefer]

It's like it was meant to be. Then I put a little Belveda. Okay. Nobody really cares anyway, why I drink. I wasn't really sure of a reason until I woke up at four in the morning and just went, oh my God, I just had a lucid dream and I had to like run and write it down. And I haven't had one. Oh, really long. And it was I also last night. M. This is the original reason. I was gonna say I think I almost astral projected last night.

[Em McCory]

Oh my God.

[Christine Schiefer]

And I got too scared.

[Em McCory]

Okay, I get that.

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah. Because I. I mean, I'm on the subreddit too and I feel like people say that a lot. Like, because your body starts like vibrating and humming really loud and it almost feels like scary you know, you have to kind of be, like, really relaxed into it. Otherwise it's, like, scary and you resist it. But I was doing this, like, breath work meditation, and all of a sudden I'm like. I feel like my arm is floating out of my body. And I was like, holy. Yeah, it was the creepiest thing. And then I went to sleep and had a lucid dream. So I don't know if those are connected, but it was weird timing. And in my lucid dream, this is the stupidest thing of all that I finally realized. I have dreams all the time that I'm flying. But in my dreams, I think that's just the normal thing. Like, in my dream, I'm like, oh, another day of flying.

[Em McCory]

And then, oh, I see.

[Christine Schiefer]

Today it finally hit me. In the dream, I was, like, about to jump out a window. It's always the same window, too. I'm always about to jump out the window to do my flying for the day. And then this time I went, man, I really wish this were a lucid dream so that I could, like, actually do fly. Go fly somewhere interesting. Like. Like, it just sounds so crazy when you say it out loud. But in my dream, I was like, just another run of the mill flying session. And I, like, went to fly out the window and thought to myself, man, if only this were a lucid dream. Maybe I can, like, pretend I'm in a lucid dream. Like, what are you talking about? I, like, gaslit myself into a lucid dream by going, let's pretend you're in a lucid dream even though you're not.

[Em McCory]

Maybe that's just the way to do it.

[Christine Schiefer]

So, yeah, if you're ever, like, flying, it's probably not real. Re. It's probably not, like, physical gravity reality. Like, maybe it's reality in a way, but it's probably a Dre. You can probably go, like, do something awesome if you want.

[Em McCory]

I had a dream last night that I was friends with Idina Menzel. And I remember thinking. I remember thinking, I can't believe I'm friends with Adina Menzel. That feels like that shouldn't be real. And then it just kept it moving.

[Christine Schiefer]

I was like, that's like, me and the flying. It's like, oh, just another day of flying. Just another day hanging out with Adina.

[Em McCory]

Boring. So infuriating.

[Christine Schiefer]

I know. It's like. And so then when it hit me. And the stupidest part is, I don't think it hit me in the dream. I think it hit me when I woke up and I Went, oh, cool. I turned my flying. Flying lesson into a dream. And then I went, wait a minute. What do you mean you turned your. Like, my brain was still like, oh, wow. I can't believe I flipped my real life flying lesson into a lucid dream. And I woke up and went, you dumbass. That all was a dream. Like, come on, get it. Like, focus.

[Em McCory]

It's so frustrating. I really. I had, like, such an ego to the idea. Like, once I did that lucid dream where I was in an airport.

[Christine Schiefer]

I think that's been inspiring me to keep trying because I feel like that. Like, that, like, kicked it back into gear.

[Em McCory]

Well, for me, I thought, oh, now that I've done this, I can do it again. Right now, every.

[Christine Schiefer]

It feels accessible. And then it's like, not.

[Em McCory]

And every time I've had a dream sense, and I go, oh, that's funny. I can't believe I'm friends with Idina Menzel. Yep. That didn't even occur to me.

[Christine Schiefer]

It's the wildest shit. It's like your brain goes, never mind.

[Em McCory]

Yeah, I don't like it.

[Christine Schiefer]

And then all of a sudden, it happens, and you're like, wait a minute, I'm back.

[Em McCory]

You would think that the most insane dreams would be the ones where you're like, wait a minute. Why is this happening? But it's. It's usually something so mundane.

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah, it sounds so. Then today I was like, okay, every time I go on my flying lesson, Christine, you're just gonna check just in case. And maybe I go flying a lot of my dreams. I mean, I don't know. It feels like. It felt like another normal day of flying to me. Maybe. You're always friends with Adina, so anytime you see her, just be like, I'll let her know. Check. Even if she's really here. Yeah, even if we're really friends. I just gotta check.

[Em McCory]

I'll just go, yeah, yeah, yeah, she'll know what it means.

[Christine Schiefer]

She'll. She'll know what it means. And then you won't be friends anymore. And, yeah, you won't have to worry.

[Em McCory]

And they'll be like, now I'm not dreaming. That's obviously most.

[Christine Schiefer]

Allison's like, ow. You just woke me up with that horrible shrieking sound. Anyway, so that's why I drink, because I'm. I'm. I got all excited, and then I realized, like, man, the brain is sometimes really stupid.

[Em McCory]

How did you feel about the. The arm floating part, though? Like, did you. Could you do it again once you realized it, or did it Shut it off.

[Christine Schiefer]

It was almost like, ha. It almost felt like I had super, super sped up, like, fast tracked. The feeling I've gotten before when I dissociate, like, from my body. And I've done that a lot before for various reasons, but also sometimes just to see if I could, like, astral project. But I've never gotten past a certain point. It almost felt like that, but, like, supercharged. And I think it was like, the breathing technique and stuff, and I was sort of, like, falling asleep. And so I think it was that combination. But, yeah, it was. It was definitely, like, more than I'd ever kind of gotten myself out. Whoever's listening to this for the first time is probably like, what the fuck is going on with this? True.

[Em McCory]

Someone's boyfriend who got, like, forced into this is like, oh, my God, this.

[Christine Schiefer]

Is a rough one to start with. I'm sorry. But anyway, point being, I. I only got the arm out. I think I fell asleep after that and went to my flying lesson because I was running late, so.

[Em McCory]

Right.

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah. So that's why I drink.

[Em McCory]

Right.

[Christine Schiefer]

I'm going to try it again later. I'll. I'll hit you up. I'll show. I'll show up at your door if.

[Em McCory]

I'm still waiting for you to arrive in my own dream.

[Christine Schiefer]

I'm. I. You know what's so funny? As I started lucid dreaming last night, because it was, I think, the first one since you had yours. I was like, oh, I'll have to. So I was, like, starting my flying lesson. I was like, wouldn't it be fun if this was a lucid dream? Then I could go, like, pop in and say hi to M. Too bad it's just a fucking flying lesson. Like, you know? And then, so when I finally was like, wait a minute. I think it's happening. I woke up and I was like, christine, like, you were this close. Your brain was trying to say, go pop over there. Go say hi.

[Em McCory]

You know what's weird is I actually don't. I can't remember the last time I had a dream and you were in it. I feel like I. I don't think.

[Christine Schiefer]

You'Re ever in my dreams either. Isn't that weird? Maybe it's because we see each other a lot.

[Em McCory]

Yeah.

[Christine Schiefer]

Even my dreams sometimes.

[Em McCory]

Allison's not in any of my dreams. Oh, I think I may. Maybe you're right. Where my brain's like, I already saw them. Who else is out there?

[Christine Schiefer]

I've already enough of that.

[Em McCory]

The only dream I had where Allison was in it was the lucid Dr. Interesting. Because remember, I was like, why is she here? And that's what, like. Oh.

[Christine Schiefer]

So anytime you see Allison, you really have to do your test is for you. Hang on. Oh. Or me. So. Yeah, any. Every couple minutes, we'll just check to make sure we're still here. Yeah.

[Em McCory]

Why do I drink? Oh, well, I have my ld.

[Christine Schiefer]

Good.

[Em McCory]

I bought. I know you're not supposed to buy yourself Chero cards, because I know you. Oh, it's not.

[Christine Schiefer]

No. Some people say your first deck is meant to be a gift and that it has some sort, but in reality, that's not. It's just kind of an old wives tale.

[Em McCory]

Oh, I didn't know.

[Christine Schiefer]

Or it's just it. Yeah. It's because it's all about energy. It doesn't really.

[Em McCory]

Okay, well, I bought myself two. I. I didn't even really. I wasn't looking for a tarot deck, but I was like, I have to. I have to get this one. Sorry. My hair is a mess today, everybody. Sorry about that. It's been a real situation.

[Christine Schiefer]

I'm loving it. It really almost like moving your hat up and down by itself.

[Em McCory]

It's comical.

[Christine Schiefer]

It's really great.

[Em McCory]

I didn't mean to get a tarot deck, but I saw this one. I was like, well, I can't not buy that one.

[Christine Schiefer]

Show me.

[Em McCory]

Literally Back to the Future.

[Christine Schiefer]

Well, that pisses me off. You know, that pisses me off. That feels like the perfect gift for Em.

[Em McCory]

I literally just stumbled upon it.

[Christine Schiefer]

I get so annoyed when people find gifts that are perfect for them, and I'm like, you found it first.

[Em McCory]

I did. Well, because I didn't know about the wives tale thing. I did look at Allison and I was like, I think you're supposed to buy this for me.

[Christine Schiefer]

She's like, not in the budget, babe.

[Em McCory]

Well, then she said. Then she was like, I guess if you want me to. And I went with that energy, I'll just buy myself.

[Christine Schiefer]

Exactly. I think that's why people have moved away from that sort of, like, story, because it's like, well, who. What if somebody gifted them to you? That's like a bad memory or like a toxic. You know, you, like, you don't want that energy, like, whatever. Can I tell you what? I actually just got in the mail? Speaking of. Sorry. This is. And it's right here. Please hold.

[Em McCory]

Okay.

[Christine Schiefer]

I promise it's worth it.

[Em McCory]

The mystery. The mystery is killing me. Anyway, the. The tower on this is the clock tower. Obviously, they had some pretty interesting parallels.

[Christine Schiefer]

Okay, so Charlie are at our publishing publishing house. I don't know. We're not that fancy, but it's technically, I guess, a publishing house. When we went for a book signing in Kansas City, she and I were talking about, I don't know, Tara or something, and Charlie goes, oh, well, there's this cool thing coming out. I'm like, don't feel any pressure, but do you want me to mail you a copy? And I was like, yes, immediately. It is the Neopets official tarot by Andrews McNeil Publishing. And the way that I just thought. Charlie knows me so well. I'm so glad she's the one who worked on the book with us, because she clearly gets truly.

[Em McCory]

I, I can't think of. I would have seen that in a store and been like, it wouldn't even occur to me to get that for you. I would have just been like, oh, right. I don't know who to give that to.

[Christine Schiefer]

I don't know if I even would have bought it for myself necessarily. But when it arrived, I was like, wait a minute. This is ep. This is so cool. Like, channel all your favorite neopets, fairies, magicians, and more. I mean, I can only imagine that the omelette is in here somewhere.

[Em McCory]

Maybe. Well, I, I'm very happy for you.

[Christine Schiefer]

Because I'm very happy for you. I was, Sorry, I was not trying to overshadow. I just thought, wow, speaking of very niche tarot card interests. Yeah.

[Em McCory]

No, I, I, I didn't even know they made. Like, who would think that you believe you didn't own.

[Christine Schiefer]

I, I guess I probably would have seen that and already assumed you owned it.

[Em McCory]

To be fair, I, it's, it's the first time I ever saw. And I went, I feel like I have to do it.

[Christine Schiefer]

Ask where you found it.

[Em McCory]

Barnes and Noble.

[Christine Schiefer]

Really?

[Em McCory]

They now have a whole, A whole wall of tarot decks.

[Christine Schiefer]

Oh, they're trying to lean into the. Yeah.

[Em McCory]

Yeah. But then I also got another one, which.

[Christine Schiefer]

Have you used it yet?

[Em McCory]

I pulled a card yesterday, and it seemed fine.

[Christine Schiefer]

Okay.

[Em McCory]

Did its job. I also got a. I inherited my mom's from college, like, her tarot deck, and it was like, the original, like, Rider. Wait, Tarot deck that I have, too. But. So I'm always afraid. Those are the ones that I feel like, have the most energy behind them.

[Christine Schiefer]

That's how I feel. Yeah.

[Em McCory]

But I also, I'm so terrified to travel with those or use them a lot because they are from, like, the 80s and they're important.

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah. And they're important. They Have. Yeah, yeah.

[Em McCory]

And so I, I ended up getting another version, another one when I was there. But these are the plastic ones so they don't tear.

[Christine Schiefer]

Oh, I've never seen that.

[Em McCory]

They like, like it's like a plastic card.

[Christine Schiefer]

Oh my God. Okay. I've never seen that before.

[Em McCory]

I feel like I can travel with these and not worry about damaging them.

[Christine Schiefer]

Look at, this is the one. And I travel with them, see?

[Em McCory]

Yeah. And the bag and it's all busted, just like mine.

[Christine Schiefer]

And so I bought this in the 90s and I saved up money for it. It was my first. So speaking of, it was my first ever purchase of tarot, my first deck. And I bought it for myself. So, you know.

[Em McCory]

Okay, great.

[Christine Schiefer]

You know, I feel like it's. I always was so freaked out by that. And then everyone was like, that's not a thing. But yeah, this is my deck. But then the other day I was like telling my friend Celine, I still have the deck that we went up to the bookstore and walked up there and bought together. And I saved up my money and then I look at it, I'm like $22 in like the 90 or.

[Em McCory]

Yeah, wild.

[Christine Schiefer]

I was like, they were fucking like.

[Em McCory]

I wonder if it's because there was. I wonder if it's because there were so few of them back then though. Like, it was like, it was like.

[Christine Schiefer]

Definitely at one of those like very boutique witchy 90s shops that like went out of business eventually. Mystic shop, a mystic type thing where Celine and I would go in and go like, wow, you know, and like, look at the crystals. But yeah, I still have mine. So when you said like travel with, I was like, yeah, I've kind of really might have gone. Gone through it.

[Em McCory]

That's why I wanted to bring some plastic ones because I'm always worried about them tearing or like if I spill on them.

[Christine Schiefer]

Gotta have a little pouch.

[Em McCory]

Oh, that's nice.

[Christine Schiefer]

And then I put a little pencil in there in case I need to like, take a note.

[Em McCory]

Take a note. Well, I got those. And then I got a third thing which I'm very excited about. I haven't started yet, but I already know it's going to be like a middle of the night fixation.

[Christine Schiefer]

Oh, how to read tea leaves. That's also a beautiful book.

[Em McCory]

Oh, that's that, that's that literally the tea company.

[Christine Schiefer]

It was beautiful. Yeah. Wow.

[Em McCory]

I like how they were like, everyone's into witchy. We have to lean into this. Here's how noble.

[Christine Schiefer]

And those folks, they get it. Charlie.

[Em McCory]

It's this really beautiful, like, box. Like. Like, it opens as a. It opens like a book, which I love.

[Christine Schiefer]

You can use their tea. Oh, my gosh.

[Em McCory]

Yes. I think it's, like, such a smart little collab.

[Christine Schiefer]

Great marketing.

[Em McCory]

There's only, like, 80 cards, I think, or something like that, or 60 cards. But so I was like, I feel like I could. And all of the images are. It's like, I. Not to say, like, reading tea leaves is going to be so easy, but all the cards are like a ring or bones or, like, I'm just kind of like. I think I already can probably read tea leaves if. If I have to be like, oh, a heart. I wonder what that could mean. Like, you know?

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah.

[Em McCory]

Anyway, yeah, I feel like it's less.

[Christine Schiefer]

Meanwhile, I'm like sausage and pepper omelette from fairyland. Wait, what could it mean?

[Em McCory]

Well, though, it's literally like a wheel and a crown and a flower, and I'm like a snake. I'm like, I think I could probably figure this out faster than tarot.

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah. Eva got me a deck of, like, tea reading leaves that I have yet to use. But maybe either. Oh, maybe in the yappy hour after this on Patreon, we can do either. I can pull, like, a Neopets tarot.

[Em McCory]

Oh, yeah. And I'll do it. Back to the future.

[Christine Schiefer]

Back to future. Yeah. That would be fun. Oh, and we have to say it, because I keep almost forgetting, but we really, really, really would love people to come to our tour. It's the last time we'll be touring this year because we weren't able to do a full tour. I mean, you know that already, but, you know, it's the last time. We're probably also doing this particular show, and we really want people to come see it because we love it. And we will be in Monterey and San Luis.

[Em McCory]

San Luis Obispo.

[Christine Schiefer]

San Luis Obispo. March 14th.

[Em McCory]

14Th and 15th.

[Christine Schiefer]

14Th and 15th. And we've never been there before, and we're really excited. So go get some tickets. Please come see us. There's still time to get tickets when you're hearing this. And that's why we drink dot com, slash, live. And that's the other reason I drink, because we're about to come back on tour.

[Em McCory]

I am very excited to read some tarot cards with you. I think that'd be fun.

[Christine Schiefer]

Me, too. Yeah, that would be fun. Later. Okay. You know how some companies will, like, send you a bill and you're like, wait a minute. Why are there all these dollars added to it? And they're like, it's just like a fee. And you're like, oh, but like, what energy do I have to fight it? You know what I'm saying?

[Em McCory]

Wow. No sense has ever been truer.

[Christine Schiefer]

Get it? That's why we're really excited about Mint Mobile. I feel like everyone who switches Mint Mobile is like, oh, thank God. You know, none of, none of this nonsense.

[Em McCory]

Say bye.

[Christine Schiefer]

Bye.

[Em McCory]

Bye.

[Christine Schiefer]

Bye.

[Em McCory]

Toodles. Toodaloo. To your overpriced wireless plans, jaw dropping bills and unexpected overages. Met Mobile is here to rescue you with premium wireless plans starting at 15 bucks a month. And all plans come with high speed data and unlimited talk and text delivered on the nation's largest 5G network.

[Christine Schiefer]

You can use your own phone with any Mint Mobile plan and bring your phone number along with all your existing contacts. I know. Setting up a super easy. You basically just they, they do it with you. It's very fast. Ditch overpriced wireless and get three months of premium wireless service from Mint Mobile for 15 bucks a month.

[Em McCory]

If you like your money. I do. Mint Mobile is for you. Shop [e-mail] ATWD that's mintmobile.com Upfront payment.

[Christine Schiefer]

Of $45 for 3 month 5 gigabyte plan required equivalent to $15 a month. New customer offer for the first 3 months only. Then fully price plan options available. Taxes and fees extra CMIT Mobile for details. Have you ever woken up with a funky mole? A weird rash? I mean Em and I have woken up with probably every type of like malady, Funky everything, funky something. Because we record this basically right as we wake up. Because that's just the people we are. And I feel like every day we're like, what happened? You know. So Zoc Doc is basically the point that I'm saying is don't worry. Zoc Doc is like this app on your phone where you can say help, I have a malady. And they'll be like, come on in.

[Em McCory]

ZocDoc is a free app and website where you can search and compare high quality in network doctors and click to instantly book an appointment. I have used ZocDoc for quite some time. It really is so lovely to just filter what you need. And it just shows up. It just comes up with a list for you instead of having to Google people and then review them and then wonder if they're in your network office. Such a waste of time.

[Christine Schiefer]

And then they're like wait, we don't accept your insurance. And you're like why did I go through all that that like yeah, nowadays there are so many providers on there you can seriously filter. Doctors who take your insurance are nearby, are good fit whatever for whatever like specialty you need and highly rated too, which is really cool. Plus, appointments made through Zocdoc happen fast, typically within just 24 to 72 hours of booking. And you can even score same day appointments.

[Em McCory]

Stop putting off those doctor's appointments and go to Zocdoc.com drink to find and instantly book a top rated doctor today. That's Z O c d o c.com drink zocdoc.com drink okay, so where do we go with from here the story?

[Christine Schiefer]

Leave me a web, my friend.

[Em McCory]

Well, I have to kind of go back to an old web. So for people listening, we haven't recorded for like three weeks. Oh, that's right.

[Christine Schiefer]

I keep wondering why I'm so bad at this.

[Em McCory]

Well, the last story I did was a part one, so oops. For everyone else it's gonna feel like it was last week, but for you, you definitely forgot the story.

[Christine Schiefer]

Oh my God.

[Em McCory]

I have a recap.

[Christine Schiefer]

What is it? What is it? What is it?

[Em McCory]

Maybe the cage.

[Christine Schiefer]

I was really gonna pretend.

[Em McCory]

It makes me. It makes me really happy though, because there are so many times where I feel like so guilty that I don't remember your stories. And it's like again, after 400 conversations, how are we gonna remember every single one of them?

[Christine Schiefer]

I mean, and then I know, I remember you doing that and I remember saying, oh, like the squirrel cage. And yes, the only thing I know about is the squirrel cage now. So I'm like, I can't stop thinking about that.

[Em McCory]

You did ottawatomi County. That's right.

[Christine Schiefer]

That's an intrusive thought also.

[Em McCory]

And Council Bluffs, Iowa.

[Christine Schiefer]

Wow.

[Em McCory]

We said that's. We said so wrong story.

[Christine Schiefer]

Wrong story.

[Em McCory]

So not that. So I have a recap for you. Previously on. And that's why we drank the cage over 300 year old jail.

[Christine Schiefer]

Okay.

[Em McCory]

It was around from the 1580s all the way until the 1900s.

[Christine Schiefer]

Yep.

[Em McCory]

And it was a jail.

[Christine Schiefer]

Oh my God. And then somebody bought it.

[Em McCory]

Yes.

[Christine Schiefer]

Oh my God. It was that cool little creepy little thing. And I was like so envious because I want to buy it.

[Em McCory]

Okay, so this was for anyone else who may not know or if you for some reason listen backwards, this is the recap.

[Christine Schiefer]

We'll just fill in all the gaps.

[Em McCory]

Well, it'll fill in some gaps, but just to fill in all the gaps there. This was a jail that held men, women and children for like literally like, hundreds of years, so already a lot of bad energy there. The alley behind the house is where they would take the bodies of prisoners out of the jail when no one was looking. And it was called Coffin Alley. Yeah, the local legend in this area, I think it's called Ozith. Saint Ozith, England or something. The local legend in this area is that there was a woman named Ursula, and she was a midwife, but then she got accused for witchcraft.

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah, no wonder I've been having bad dreams lately. Reminded me of that old lady who used to be so cruel to me.

[Em McCory]

Well, so Ursula was. She was a midwife, but then, like, people saw her muttering next to a house of someone who wronged her, blah, blah, blah. Anyway, she got accused for witchcraft. She ended up being held at the cage. This was the jail she was held at, along with all the other women that she accused of witchcraft to try to help her own.

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah. Case or just under duress, maybe.

[Em McCory]

Under duress.

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah.

[Em McCory]

And anyway, so the big thing is that Ursula Kemp stayed here before she ended up being hanged for witchcraft. And that's what it's most famous for. There's a plaque on the building.

[Christine Schiefer]

And where is it again? In Pottawatomie.

[Em McCory]

Saint Ozith.

[Christine Schiefer]

Oh, yeah.

[Em McCory]

I think England just said that.

[Christine Schiefer]

Okay.

[Em McCory]

And so then in the 1970s, after, like, over 300 years of it being a jail, in the 1970s, it became a house.

[Christine Schiefer]

Right. Normal.

[Em McCory]

Yeah. And it was super haunted. Super, super haunted. Apparently, anyone who's lived there has broken their lease early to get out of there. One tenant even died by suicide in the house, which has become associated with the hauntings here, of course. And nine months after that, suicide. This was now in 2005, a woman who's our age, 30 years old, her name is Vanessa, she moves in because she wanted to move back to her childhood hometown. And she saw this really cute historical cottage. And she had walked past it all the time growing up as a kid, and she was like, hell, yeah, I'm gonna get this house. And the realtor told her the house.

[Christine Schiefer]

One, two, three, Coffin Alley. Sorry, I just walked all over your line, which was so good. But, like, you're good. I can't imagine anything better than a Zillow listing for, like, Coffin Alley. Anyway, I'm so sorry. Go on. You're good. The realtor, it calls her up, says, 1, 2, 3, Coffin Alley is there. Yeah, sure.

[Em McCory]

And says, actually, you know what? That's so crazy, because the house has chosen you. That was what the realtor told her, by the way.

[Christine Schiefer]

That was the most epic cliffhanger. And I do recall that being quite a cliffhanger. So I'm back in it. I'm back on it. I'm buckled in. The house has chosen you. Goodbye. That's the best Realtor. They should get some sort of medal at the Realtor Awards.

[Em McCory]

I mean, honestly, you say that.

[Christine Schiefer]

I hope they say that to every person for every house.

[Em McCory]

You know what's interesting is. Well, spoiler alert. Vanessa no longer lives in the house either. But she did say she was like, the next person who lives here at the house will choose them too.

[Christine Schiefer]

Whoa. Powerful spooky.

[Em McCory]

So Vanessa remembers when she was a kid walking past the house on her way to school. She was fascinated by the house. She always felt kind of drawn to it. She did not know. I don't know how you live in this apparently small town and don't know about the local legend of Ursula, but. Or she knew about Ursula, but didn't know the part where Ursula lived here for a while when it was a jail. And she did not know about the paranormal. Haunted rumors of the house.

[Christine Schiefer]

Wow. She must have been. Not in our circles in high school.

[Em McCory]

She clearly was just focused on her academics.

[Christine Schiefer]

I think the aesthetic was cute. And she was like, oh, I didn't realize.

[Em McCory]

Yeah, she was like, oh, I just thought it was, like, a fun little cottage.

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah. I felt very millennial, you know?

[Em McCory]

Well, she did say she was like, if I knew it was, like, a little haunted, I wouldn't have been surprised, because, like, it's a village. We live in an old village. The buildings are centuries years old. Like, fair point. Centuries years old. Am I stupid? Centuries old?

[Christine Schiefer]

Well, I said, yes, correct. Fair point.

[Em McCory]

So she said, may this is a quote from her. Maybe it would have been fine if it was a normal haunted house, but I didn't know a haunted house could be this active.

[Christine Schiefer]

Ooh.

[Em McCory]

And so she moved in. She had a childhood best friend move in with her named Nicole. So it's Vanessa and Nicole.

[Christine Schiefer]

Cute.

[Em McCory]

Nicole did know about the rumors, but she was not bothered about the ghosts, because I don't think she even realized how bad they were. And she was like, I'm just gonna move in with you. It's kind of like roaches. You're like, I guess one doesn't freak me out. You just don't know how terrible it's gonna be.

[Christine Schiefer]

You can almost, like, move on really quickly. And then you're like. And then the second time you see one, you start. That dread starts building, like, oh, this is a pattern.

[Em McCory]

Whoopsies. So she was like, I guess I'll move in. Like, what are the odds that it's that haunted?

[Christine Schiefer]

But.

[Em McCory]

But right away, things were really weird in this house. So when unpacking. As soon as they moved in, when unpacking the kitchen, Vanessa heard footsteps. And when she looked up, she saw a foggy black mass float through the door.

[Christine Schiefer]

Nah.

[Em McCory]

And then she said, I knew I was in trouble. I just sensed it, like, from the beginning, I just knew that this was gonna be bad.

[Christine Schiefer]

Bad vibes.

[Em McCory]

But also, her best friend, who just agreed to move in with her, is also moving in, like, right now. And so she was like, I'm not gonna freak her out. I'm not gonna tell her what I saw.

[Christine Schiefer]

So she kept that torso, probably yours, so she doesn't move out.

[Em McCory]

But, yeah, so she didn't tell Nicole. She was just like, okay. On site, I'm seeing a dark ass mask floating around. The women then found old documents left behind when they were looking through old furniture. And they found. I guess. I guess they found old documents which they later were able to put, or look, look at next to the house deeds, like the old deed records. And they realize that all previous tenants that have ever lived here, since this building was a house, ever since the 1970s, people have only ever lived there, maximum three and a half years.

[Christine Schiefer]

Wow. Wow, wow, wow.

[Em McCory]

But after the third year, they're always out of there.

[Christine Schiefer]

It's pretty weird.

[Em McCory]

One of the previous owners actually only lived there for a few weeks and then tried to sell the house at, like, a shockingly low price. So they were already like, okay. Other people have experienced something.

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah.

[Em McCory]

The women started smelling pipe smoke. They started smelling baking bread, and they started smelling something nauseating, which I'm assuming is like, the smell of death.

[Christine Schiefer]

You don't want to ruin the smell of bread. That sucks.

[Em McCory]

I know. I was like, the bread part I can vibe with. And then all of a sudden, great death. They also said that sometimes they would feel on their body that when they would walk through certain doorways, it felt like walking through jelly. I don't know.

[Christine Schiefer]

Ick.

[Em McCory]

Yeah. I don't know. If I were a believer in ectoplasm, that's what I'd call it.

[Christine Schiefer]

Right. Like, is it like just like there's so much.

[Em McCory]

So much energy, so much on you.

[Christine Schiefer]

And you're like, oh, God, that's really fucking horrible.

[Em McCory]

Yeah. They also felt something looming in parts of the house that used to be the original jail cells. There's one room that I think she literally called like the prison room or the jail room. And it was like, where the original building was, Nicole's bedroom door would latch or the door latch would shake violently. Like, so it wasn't just like, oh, I heard something.

[Christine Schiefer]

It's, like, threatening.

[Em McCory]

Yeah. Something was clearly, like, trying to get in.

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah.

[Em McCory]

They would hear footsteps at night. Sometimes they would hear footsteps and then the door latching as if it walked to the room. They would see apparitions. One time, early into living there, they found old photos in the house. And one night, they came home from work and found the death certificate of the man who died by suicide sitting on the counter in pristine condition.

[Christine Schiefer]

No way.

[Em McCory]

It was just sitting there as if someone put it there for them.

[Christine Schiefer]

No.

[Em McCory]

And they later got in touch with that man's wife, and she was like, I have the only copy of that, so why is it so even the.

[Christine Schiefer]

Wife was like, there's no reason that should be there ever.

[Em McCory]

No. And also, like, he had died at this point, like, a couple years earlier. So, like, the death certificate would be kind of. It would have a crease, and it was in pristine condition. Like, it just been sat down.

[Christine Schiefer]

Appear. Ugh.

[Em McCory]

Yeah.

[Christine Schiefer]

What does that mean?

[Em McCory]

When? Oh, yes. Then later that. I think that same day, Vanessa moved a rug that had been there and found an infestation of maggots underneath it.

[Christine Schiefer]

Oh.

[Em McCory]

And she was like, too soon.

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah. I hate to see that.

[Em McCory]

You hate to see it. One day, she actually. There was a kid that knocked on their door, on their front door, and when they opened it, he was, like, shocked that somebody lived there. He was just, like, a guy, a kid walking by, and they were both stunned to see each other. And this kid Freddy, he ends up being, like, a friend of the house, I guess.

[Christine Schiefer]

That's adorable.

[Em McCory]

He told them that his grandma was a practicing witch. And she always said that anytime you walk past this building, it is so haunted that you have to knock three times on the door to acknowledge the spirits. The other witches who were there.

[Christine Schiefer]

Oh. So he was just doing it as routine, like, oh, I just acknowledge. Oh, wow. Oh, what a cutie pie. And then the door opens, and he's.

[Em McCory]

Like, yeah, but, yeah, so I guess he was like, oh, I've been knocking on this door all the time.

[Christine Schiefer]

So, yeah, I love that he embraces his grandma being a witch. That's adorable.

[Em McCory]

I like that he, like. I like to think his grandma's, like, a little scary. And she. He's like, I have to do it just to make sure I don't.

[Christine Schiefer]

It's just not worth test risking it.

[Em McCory]

Well, so they end up finding out this is what he's about. And they're like, okay, well, anytime you walk by, if we hear three knocks on the door, we know it's you. They start making small talk with him when he comes to the house. Soon, he ends up being a friend that they invite into the house. And one time while talking with him, Freddie said that a lot of times when he walks by, he sees an old woman standing in the window.

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah, Is that your aunt up there who lives up in the corner? Oh, my God.

[Em McCory]

I feel like he was like, yeah. Didn't know how to mention that when we first met, but there's someone upstairs for sure.

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah.

[Em McCory]

Another time, they invited Freddie in, and he said he wasn't worried about the house because his grandma had put a protection spell on him if he ever did go inside.

[Christine Schiefer]

Oh, on him, I thought. On the house. I thought that was nice. Oh, he's just not worried about himself because he's. He's safe.

[Em McCory]

Yeah. He was like, well, my. I have no problem coming in now because my grandma put a protection.

[Christine Schiefer]

You guys are in big trouble.

[Em McCory]

But this is a quote from Freddie. He said. This is after he just said, my grandma put a production spell on me. He said. As I walked in, clear as day, a man said to me, that won't work here.

[Christine Schiefer]

Oh, my God.

[Em McCory]

Oh.

[Christine Schiefer]

Ew. That won't work here. Jesus. What the.

[Em McCory]

Ew. I hate it.

[Christine Schiefer]

God.

[Em McCory]

Another time, Freddy spent the night after an argument with his grandma, and he just went over there to crash. But the only place they had for him.

[Christine Schiefer]

I'm still alive. I thought she was like, his spirit guide or something. Okay, okay.

[Em McCory]

He lives with his grandma, so she's.

[Christine Schiefer]

Very like, knock on that door, Freddy. Okay.

[Em McCory]

She's like, if you're gonna become friends with them, I'm putting a spell on you immediately.

[Christine Schiefer]

Oh. I thought it was, like, an homage to his grandmother. It's much more prevalent. Present danger.

[Em McCory]

That probably means his grandma just put a spell on him. And now a ghost is like, oh.

[Christine Schiefer]

That won't work here.

[Em McCory]

Huh.

[Christine Schiefer]

Nice try, Grandma.

[Em McCory]

Well, lo and behold, that spirit. Sounds like you might have been right, because one night, Freddy spends the night there after an argument with his alive grandma. And the one place they had extra space for him to sleep in was the prison room. And so.

[Christine Schiefer]

Hey, but do you think when he left and said, I'm going to their house, and she's like, I could remove that protection spell.

[Em McCory]

Oh, maybe she was like, try it.

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah, she's like, yeah, you want to fight with me? Yeah, you know?

[Em McCory]

Well, he crashed on the sofa in there, and this is a quote from him. I managed to fall asleep. It was very, very dark, and I kept brushing my face. It felt like there was something on it, like a spider. And I opened my eyes in the end, and I looked down, and next. I shit you not, there's a woman there, and she's on her knees, and she's stroking my head and brushing my hair. I can't scream. I can't breathe. I can't do anything. Eventually, the woman vanished. Imagine just waking up and you. And so, like, you already felt something on your face. Like, so she was. Was she just there with your eyes closed the whole time, or did she only appear when your eyes were open?

[Christine Schiefer]

Wow, that's such a good point. Was it like you projected? Wow. Whoa. That's trippy. I mean, I would have been scared to see a spider and then to see a person, it's like, who's brushing.

[Em McCory]

Your hair, like, actively putting their hand in your face.

[Christine Schiefer]

You know, Very invasive, intimate.

[Em McCory]

You know, they're not saying anything. Like, is she smiling? Do I want her to smile? I don't know.

[Christine Schiefer]

Feel like threatening? Yeah, I don't know.

[Em McCory]

Anyway, I think that was Freddie's last time there. He was like, grandma, this. Both didn't work. So Nicole and Vanessa, they're still living there, and they start noticing that things are going missing and reappearing in odd spots. They are starting to see weird lights throughout the house. Crows are flying into their house a lot and, like, crashing into the windows.

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah, that's not a good sign.

[Em McCory]

For Halloween, they hosted a party dressed as witches, which. Too soon? I don't know.

[Christine Schiefer]

Very bold move, I would argue.

[Em McCory]

Very bold move. I mean, I guess, like, you literally live in the place that witches are known to have lips.

[Christine Schiefer]

You kind of have to go along with the story. That's true. You can't really necessarily dress a Shrek and be like, yeah, it fits the vibe, you know? Like, I feel like you kind of have to play along.

[Em McCory]

I do think that they. Maybe if I were that person, if I were living there and I dressed up as a witch, I would out loud be like, this is an homage of respect. This is not.

[Christine Schiefer]

And then later, when you're doing a jello shot, it's like, really?

[Em McCory]

Yeah.

[Christine Schiefer]

Homage of respect. Nice try. That won't work here.

[Em McCory]

Well, while getting ready for this Halloween party, while dressed as witches, they heard a loud sound downstairs that had no cause. Then all of a sudden, they felt this really intense presence in the house. And apparently that was a new presence that they had not experienced yet. But oh God, that presence was there to stay. Because after Halloween, activity escalated all the time. Like there was.

[Christine Schiefer]

The timing's weird. So it's like while they're getting ready for Halloween, I wonder if it's like a limited time somehow by accident maybe.

[Em McCory]

Just because the veil's thin.

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, true.

[Em McCory]

They had an. There was an old chain in the fireplace. Oh, of course that when they moved in, they didn't know where it came from. But the story goes that it was from like the 1500s and it was part of the jail. So it's like imagine just living with a 1500s, right? Yeah. Apparently this chain started swinging back and forth at night by itself. Objects would no longer move, but they were throwing themselves across rooms. The TV volume would be up and down on its own all the time. Doors would slam, open, shut, open, shot open, shut. Not even like one slam, but you would hear it upstairs non stop.

[Christine Schiefer]

Oh, see that's so it's not residual, you know, at that point it's like, oh, someone's trying to get my attention or scare me.

[Em McCory]

It's smart and angry. Yeah, yeah.

[Christine Schiefer]

Yes. Bad combo, by the way, folks. Smart and angry.

[Em McCory]

They started hearing the sound of babies crying at night. Fire tools would move around by themselves. The kettle. Yeah. I don't know about the babies, but I guess kids also live there.

[Christine Schiefer]

Oh, true.

[Em McCory]

Fire tools would move by themselves. The kettle would turn itself on.

[Christine Schiefer]

It's dangerous.

[Em McCory]

I know. Well, even later she says, like, one of the reasons I had to move was because like my electric bill was crazy because things kept turning on.

[Christine Schiefer]

You're right that I didn't even think about the practicality, like the life practicality of living somewhere like that.

[Em McCory]

She was like, when everything, the lights turn on and then they don't turn off and the TV turns on, the kettle turns on and the stove turns on. So not only is it now expensive, but it's also dangerous. What if I'm gone and the stove just decides to turn on?

[Christine Schiefer]

Exactly. Or a fire tool just decides to make its way across. Yeah.

[Em McCory]

Wasn't there a listeners episode we did a while ago where like someone's mom worked in a kitchen and she had to work the graveyard shift because she was the only one like, brave enough to stay there and like after hours and she had to be there after everyone else left. But it was because like at 10 on the dot every night, the stove would turn itself on or something. Yeah.

[Christine Schiefer]

And it was like, oh, she would have to go. It was like, turn it off. Was it a convenience store or something? It was like, something. Maybe it was a. But yeah, it was like, she would have to go, yeah, maybe it was a stove. We have to go back and turn it all off. And it was like clockwork. Yeah.

[Em McCory]

Yeah.

[Christine Schiefer]

Anyway, I don't know what that was, but yeah, I remember that.

[Em McCory]

I can't imagine, like, always having to wondering, like, is the kettle on? Did my shower turn on ocd?

[Christine Schiefer]

Like, thankfully it's not the kind of like checking really usually. But, like, imagine you do have the checking OCD and then you're like, oh, my God. I'm constantly being reaffirmed that yes, the stove did turn on by itself and I did leave the hair dryer on. Like, it would make me crazy.

[Em McCory]

I feel like in between developing OCD from this house and fully having ocd, the in between, where you don't realize there's a ghost going on.

[Christine Schiefer]

Oh, it must just be pain.

[Em McCory]

The crazy making of like. I swear I actually did turn this off.

[Christine Schiefer]

Totally out of your mind. Yeah.

[Em McCory]

It was constantly freezing colds in the house where it shouldn't have been. The tap would turn on and off by itself again. The latches and the doors would move on their own. I will reiterate again, because in a lot of interviews she kept really bringing up the fact that, like, the door opening and closing, it was like a violent slam, non stop. It was just non stop. Her hair would get yanked. There was this one room that was like, had overwhelming vibes of, like, depression and grief. You could hear random people talking upstairs and laughing with each other, but nobody is there.

[Christine Schiefer]

I don't like that.

[Em McCory]

You would hear kids running around upstairs and there was no way to know who was actually haunting her house the most. It just felt like like a train station. Like Grand Central Station.

[Christine Schiefer]

Just like a constant in and out flow.

[Em McCory]

Yeah. And then you don't even know like, like what the story is except for the fact that was a jail. Like, was that just little kid inmates running around with each other? Like.

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah. Was that like people who lived there in between it was being a jail, Was it like, you know, or was it from somebody else entirely? Like a totally different place? Because when you first said the thing about walking through doorways, my thought was honestly, like, portal, like that energy portal, like, maybe that's it.

[Em McCory]

Yeah.

[Christine Schiefer]

Open here that like gets. Lets people in and out.

[Em McCory]

Yeah.

[Christine Schiefer]

You know, and then on Halloween when that one thing showed up, I don't know yeah. Something about like walking through that weird jello y thing made me think of like a portal or something.

[Em McCory]

That's a good point. Yeah, it's something. A dimension of sorts.

[Christine Schiefer]

Yucko.

[Em McCory]

There were always shadow people all the time. Like all the time. She said it was. It was just so natural.

[Christine Schiefer]

Boring.

[Em McCory]

She said electronics would switch themselves on and off all the time. Sometimes you would hear people. You would hear people walking by you. One time she saw someone walk by her in like broad daylight and she said they were just like solid people.

[Christine Schiefer]

Weird. Do you think did they see her?

[Em McCory]

Yeah, one of them. I. I get to it eventually. But there's no. No, there's like a solid apparition who like straight up, they just stare each other down. Like it was two of them just star each other.

[Christine Schiefer]

One doing the hair too.

[Em McCory]

Yeah, yeah. One guy that Vanessa was dating for a second was a skeptic and when he spent.

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah, he was last long.

[Em McCory]

She was dating him for a second and he was a skeptic for a second because when she. When he came over and spent the night, his soda can flew off the nightstand in front of him.

[Christine Schiefer]

Oh, we just read a story, a listener story before this of a glass getting pushed off a skeptic boyfriend's nightstand.

[Em McCory]

Yeah, it's always the skeptic boyfriend.

[Christine Schiefer]

That's nice.

[Em McCory]

Three times she said were like the big time. She saw apparitions as clear as solid living people. Two times were guys. One time was a woman and she said that there were. She said there were literally layers of spirits here because they would range from nice to malevolent. And you just never knew who you were going to get.

[Christine Schiefer]

Oh, God.

[Em McCory]

One of the nice times early on was the apparition of the woman that she saw. And she. She said that she saw the woman walk towards her. She was wearing old clothes and she was holding a pear shaped bowl of leaves.

[Christine Schiefer]

Pear shaped bowl of leaves? Sure. Okay.

[Em McCory]

The woman stuck her hand in the leaves and then over Vanessa when she was sitting down and then sprinkled the leaves on her.

[Christine Schiefer]

What? I didn't consent to this.

[Em McCory]

And then just like walked away. I feel like I would have been.

[Christine Schiefer]

Like, literally like, hold your breath. Yeah.

[Em McCory]

Oh my God. Like, is it dust? Is it ashes? What is it? But apparently it was like old leaves. And so she felt like this woman had very nice energy. She didn't feel threatened by it, but she also assumed that this person was some sort of practitioner. And her gut feeling was like. Because this was early on and them living there. She was like, my gut Feeling was this apparition knew that there was a darkness here and she did something to try to protect me.

[Christine Schiefer]

So it was like, oh, I'll do what I can. I'll do a little like, ritual on you. Oh my gosh, that's scary.

[Em McCory]

You know, a place is haunted when one of the ghosts has to step forward and immediately protect you from the other ghosts.

[Christine Schiefer]

Oh my God, that's so true. With some dead leaves. Like, here's the best I can do. Good luck.

[Em McCory]

It's like, this is all I have in the afterlife. So we're just have to sprinkle this on you and you're just going to roll with it. Just roll with it. So, yeah. So she remembers that she believes that it was some sort of protection she was putting on her early on. And another nice event that she remembers happening here is that her and Nicole, her roommate, were sitting in the living room and all of a sudden they both look up and they saw these sparkling stars floating above them.

[Christine Schiefer]

Oh.

[Em McCory]

And they said they were multiplying over and over again until the entire ceiling was like really bright. It looked like fireworks. And she even said to Nicole, she's like, are you seeing what I'm seeing? And they both witnessed the same thing. She said that was like one of the only nice things that ever happened in this house.

[Christine Schiefer]

I was gonna say, that sounds awesome. Did it, did it just stop?

[Em McCory]

It just, I guess faded away afterwards. Yeah.

[Christine Schiefer]

Weird.

[Em McCory]

Just to put on a show.

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah.

[Em McCory]

I don't know what the purpose was.

[Christine Schiefer]

What's the point?

[Em McCory]

Other times this. Other times as in like the not nice times, there was again this black mask that would show up and move from the floor all the way up into the ceiling. There was one time that Vanessa felt something bite her ear. She saw a satanic looking goat appear and growl at her.

[Christine Schiefer]

The idea of something biting your ear when you're not expecting it is like so upsetting because it's so close to your face, your brain, like it's.

[Em McCory]

And also it's such a.

[Christine Schiefer]

Don't bite my ear.

[Em McCory]

And it's such soft, gentle skin. It's like, get off me. They had a medium come to visit when they were living there. And the medium immediately was like, as soon as I got in there, I had a, I think she said a banging headache that felt like somebody was trying to crush my skull. And I felt like I was being watched and I had a really bad feeling that something terrible was about to happen.

[Christine Schiefer]

Oh my God. So a medium is like, hey, this is what I'm Sensing you guys can't necessarily, like, sense it that clearly, but, like, you're clearly living in it either way. So, like, it must be terrible for your health. And.

[Em McCory]

Yeah, I don't know. And the later on, they even tried to bring more psychics in, and the psychics refused to go in. As soon as I got there, they.

[Christine Schiefer]

Were like, yeah, that's a fucking red flag for yourself, right?

[Em McCory]

I think after this one medium came through and said something was going on there, they went to the local church for help. And the church literally said, like, basically, oh, you and everyone else. Because they said that several houses on that street had come to them for help, and the whole. The whole neighborhood was haunted.

[Christine Schiefer]

So this isn't just a train station. It's like a whole block party situation. People just popping in and out. Oh, my lord.

[Em McCory]

It's like St. Patrick's Day. And a whole strip of the main bars. Like, it's.

[Christine Schiefer]

Oh, and you know, you hate to live there because it's just like, it's fun for a minute and then it's like, oh, it's so fucking loud.

[Em McCory]

Honestly, at that point, if I knew other houses were haunted, this did not happen, I would have done this immediately. I would have been like, I'm putting, like, a little, like, newsletter in each of the mailboxes. And I'm saying, like, let's start like a community watch. Like, let's all be together with a blank notebook.

[Christine Schiefer]

We'll pass it on, write down what the hell's going on with you. We'll pass it around together on Sunday.

[Em McCory]

And if your house seems like the safest, we're allowed to crash there that night.

[Christine Schiefer]

Or like, has anyone met Neil yet? Or is he new here? Like, this just must be the weirdest thing to talk to your neighbors about. Like, your.

[Em McCory]

Has anyone else. Sparkling stars. Has that happened in your house?

[Christine Schiefer]

Oh, my God, a fireworks display.

[Em McCory]

Yes. It'd be so nice to, like, just have, like, a forum to go, hey.

[Christine Schiefer]

Anybody, like, get dead leaves sprinkled in their hair or.

[Em McCory]

Just me, like, weird, terrifying. Well, so they didn't do that, but they did find out that the priests were like, I'm so used to this stupid block and having to try to clean your houses.

[Christine Schiefer]

Thanks, priests, by the way.

[Em McCory]

Thanks, priest. As always, when the priests went to the house to, like, do a cleansing, they got upstairs, the bathtub faucet immediately turned on. Basically, the. The whole event was kind of useless. Nothing changed. And Vanessa and Nicole even thought they were like, I guess we are not going to ask for help. Again, because we asked the church and nothing happened. So we're just kind of like, what.

[Christine Schiefer]

Else do you do?

[Em McCory]

And I. I don't know if it's because of the church coming in. It pissed something off. But activity got even worse again, somehow where, like, Vanessa began sleepwalking. And apparently she was sleepwalking at the same time every night and would always wake up standing where the last guy died by suicide. And it was on the stairs.

[Christine Schiefer]

So the fact that the one whose death certificate showed up. Oh, no. So he's trying to tell them something or relive it or. Oh, no.

[Em McCory]

Or like, they're sensing his energy.

[Christine Schiefer]

Ooh. It just got, like, creepy chills.

[Em McCory]

Because also, remember, there was one room where they felt, like, super depressed and grief and all this. So, like, maybe that was his room. And. And this is, like, kind of a sensitive line because I'm not trying to discount anyone's experience with, like, With a suicide or anything like that, but according to her, she was saying that she noticed when activity ramped up. It felt like the house was goading her and, like, starting to put thoughts in her head. And she would hear voices in her head whispering all the time, kill yourself, kill yourself, kill yourself.

[Christine Schiefer]

Oh, my God.

[Em McCory]

So I don't mean to, like, say, like, oh, did he really want to. Right.

[Christine Schiefer]

But. Right. But I'm certain it can't help your overall mental well being if you are hearing things like that. Yeah. That you can't explain.

[Em McCory]

But she was hearing it nonstop. And it was when the activity was the worst. And this was at the same time she started sleepwalking and waking up right where he died.

[Christine Schiefer]

And it makes you wonder, too. Like, maybe that was just his energy, like.

[Em McCory]

Like, yeah, yeah.

[Christine Schiefer]

Replaying in her. You know what I mean? Or maybe he had the same experience. Who knows? But geez, that's creepy.

[Em McCory]

Well, Nicole's boyfriend moves in, and so they thought they felt safer for a second because now there's, like, a third person there. Also, as you and I have discussed, our feminism goes straight out the window when a big. When a big, strong man is there all of a sudden. I. I'll tell you, I weirdly felt safer when RJ was around, because I was like, I'm gonna make him open the door.

[Christine Schiefer]

You know, he has muscles, you know, like, he does. I don't care who you are if you're a boy or girl. What if you have big, big muscles? I'm feeling a little better about my.

[Em McCory]

He literally qualified for the Olympics because of his muscles. So I was like, I think I'm okay. And then all of a sudden, I had to move somewhere without him and I went, what do I do?

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah. Yeah. Both in the way of moving away and literally moving your items. Cuz it's like, ow, heavy. Rj, where are you?

[Em McCory]

He helped me move in and out of like three different locations.

[Christine Schiefer]

Knew it. I was like, I bet you. He was also the type to be like, oh, yeah, let me help.

[Em McCory]

You know, he was always the. Let me lift the heaviest thing you have.

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah. Wow.

[Em McCory]

So anyway.

[Christine Schiefer]

But I get it. Yes.

[Em McCory]

The boyfriend moved in and so everyone felt safer and. But then all of a sudden, even he refused to be home alone in that house. He was like, fuck this place.

[Christine Schiefer]

No, the day Blaze says that to me, I'm like, you're supposed to not feel the rational one. Yeah.

[Em McCory]

The three of them decided that nobody will ever be alone in the house. And they ended up having to schedule out a buddy system and always make sure that two of them at a time were in the house.

[Christine Schiefer]

That's so annoying. Like, that must just get so annoying.

[Em McCory]

Not only your electric bill, but now you also have to think about, like, and your water bill if the faucet keeps turning on.

[Christine Schiefer]

Now you're never alone either.

[Em McCory]

Now you have to, like, plan your day according to other people's days.

[Christine Schiefer]

Oh, forget it.

[Em McCory]

Eventually, Nicole and her boyfriend get pregnant and so her and Jim move out, leaving Vanessa alone in the house.

[Christine Schiefer]

They're like, oh, we. We really need everybody to have a buddy buddy. Except for now. Bye.

[Em McCory]

We actually got a third buddy and now we're out of here. Yeah.

[Christine Schiefer]

This is super awkward. We found a new friend. It's in my womb. Okay, have fun.

[Em McCory]

So Vanessa's by herself in this house and she, I think, bought the house. I don't think this was like, for rent. I think she bought the house.

[Christine Schiefer]

Oh, my Lord.

[Em McCory]

She did buy the house. It was for, like. I remember seeing the price at some point.

[Christine Schiefer]

Oh, right, because it was On Zillow. On 1, 2, 3, coffin. Thumbs up.

[Em McCory]

But so the. Yeah. 1, 2, 3, coffin alley. So she lives there alone now and the activity is out of control. Imagine going from, like you just said, having a buddy system to now. It's like, oh, well, no one will be there, guaranteed.

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah, now you literally are alone. Even more than before. Like, even before.

[Em McCory]

One time she had a friend come over to, like, repair an electrical thing, but basically they ended up going to her and being like, something just tried to shove me down the stairs. I'm out of here. Sorry, not helping you with your electrical thing. Thing.

[Christine Schiefer]

Oh, nice.

[Em McCory]

Another time, while brushing her teeth, someone, like, smacked the shit out of her to a point where, like. And it was on her butt too, which is extra gross.

[Christine Schiefer]

I was gonna ask. And then I was like, christine, don't ask that, but yikes, that makes it so much worse.

[Em McCory]

But hit her so hard that, like, her toothbrush and toothpaste flew out of her hands.

[Christine Schiefer]

That's sexual assault. Violent, like, very violent. Really strong spirit. If it's like physically attacking you whenever it wants once and with very precise aim. Like, this is just really bad. Really, really bad.

[Em McCory]

One friend, or I guess they were two friends that came over, but one of them noticed they had just walked through this area, nothing was wrong. And then they walked by it again. And now there were up to 30 droplets of deep red blood splattered on the floor. And it looked like someone had, like, taken a dropper and just like threw blood or something or like a nosebleed. And she took it as a warning, obviously. But even the friends were like, what the is this?

[Christine Schiefer]

She's like, just get the. Get the Swiffer. It happens all the time.

[Em McCory]

I mean, Jesus, you know, it's so shitty. I think it was literally on carpet. That's the worst.

[Christine Schiefer]

That's so up. You think these ghosts can't get any. Can get any crueler. And there they go, ruining the rug.

[Em McCory]

Most of the time, I think after that, by the way, those friends never came back, obviously.

[Christine Schiefer]

That's so sad.

[Em McCory]

Most of what happened ghost wise was in broad daylight, or most things that she witnessed were in broad daylight. Because in one of the interviews she did, she was like, I would only see things in broad daylight because at night I was hiding in my bed. Like, I wouldn't. There's no. You would hear things.

[Christine Schiefer]

I wasn't like, exploring. Right.

[Em McCory]

Yeah, she was like, I knew things were going on, like. And she was like, honestly, maybe the fucking stove turned itself on. Whatever. Let it catch on fire. I'm not going down there.

[Christine Schiefer]

What are you gonna do? Like, stand in front of it all night and make sure it doesn't.

[Em McCory]

Yeah. So she was just like. She would just hunker down at night and just hope that nothing happened in her room. And. Which is so terrifying.

[Christine Schiefer]

That's terrifying.

[Em McCory]

How do you, like. Must just sound like someone's broken in down there and it's just a mess.

[Christine Schiefer]

And you're like, I hope it's a ghost and not a criminal.

[Em McCory]

Yeah, I would, honestly, if I were her. I'm sure she felt this but like, imagine the trauma of, like seeing the sun starting to set every night.

[Christine Schiefer]

Oh, my God. And being like, it's time to retreat to my cave, you know?

[Em McCory]

Vanessa was home alone most evenings. And eventually Vanessa found out that she was pregnant.

[Christine Schiefer]

Oh, no.

[Em McCory]

And during this time, I say oh, no because I've.

[Christine Schiefer]

I've heard, I feel the energy shift. So I feel worried. Yeah.

[Em McCory]

During this time, activity spiked even more, which is said to happen when someone's pregnant, because new life is forming and there's new energy. So now apparitions are showing themselves even more. This is a quote about an apparition she saw. I'm just watching tv and then I see this man, but I could only see him from the waist up. He was gliding very, very slowly, looking at me the whole time. Gliding past the beams, I saw him looking at me. Oh, apparently they just like locked eyes the whole time while he walked by.

[Christine Schiefer]

And lovely.

[Em McCory]

I saw him so clearly. He even had laugh lines. He had black spiky hair and he had old fashioned clothes on. But I couldn't see him from the legs down. And then she said that she did feel like he had relatively good energy, but felt like he was an inmate from the jail.

[Christine Schiefer]

Wow.

[Em McCory]

But it was like a solid man just walking through your kitchen, locking eyes with you the whole time.

[Christine Schiefer]

That's amazing. And I really do trust that gut intuition. Like, she had a feeling it was. Because I do feel like a lot of times you can tell, like when you saw your grandpa and it was like, oh, it was him. And you felt safe.

[Em McCory]

Yeah.

[Christine Schiefer]

They just have a presence. So I feel like if she says I felt like he had good energy and he was an inmate here, I'm like, that's probably exactly what it was.

[Em McCory]

Yeah.

[Christine Schiefer]

Like whil. Yeah. Anyway.

[Em McCory]

And also like, why, why would she, like, I wish she got a picture of it. I would love to see that. Or maybe she. She got a picture of someone. I don't know if it was that guy, but. Which, it would be funny if he's just locking eyes and she just like takes her phone out.

[Christine Schiefer]

I was gonna say with the slow movement, you're like, hold still.

[Em McCory]

Well, again, she's still pregnant and while eight and a half months pregnant, she says, I was looking in the mirror and all of a sudden I felt two hands shove me and I hit the floor and I fell into the spare room. If I were to fall the other way, I would have gone straight down the stairs.

[Christine Schiefer]

Jesus.

[Em McCory]

So it was almost to be like, I could have fucked you up if I Wanted to.

[Christine Schiefer]

That's when I always wonder that line of, like, can they push you down the stairs or can they only push it so far? You know what I mean? Like, is there an energetic boundary or something?

[Em McCory]

Yeah. Because very rarely do you ever hear about someone actually falling down the stairs in a haunted house. You know what I mean? I mean, I guess you hear people, like, if they're on a tour, like, walking down, you feel someone kind of push them a little bit, but not aggressively shove them.

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah, I feel like that's when it's really, really bad.

[Em McCory]

Yeah. Vanessa later gave birth to her. So his name was Jesse. And she refused to leave him alone in the house, obviously.

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah.

[Em McCory]

She slept next to him in the house in, like, the newer renovated area from the 70s. Because she was like, at least it has less connection to things.

[Christine Schiefer]

It's not the prison room or whatever.

[Em McCory]

Yeah. And I think she slept, like, in the bed with him or, like, in a. Like, she was like, the rules of, like, how to, like, where. How to make your baby sleep or put it in a bassinet or something. She was like, I need to be near that baby all the fucking time. Like, something. Something would happen. The one time she did leave him alone for, like, a second, I think, just to go to the bathroom, something shoved him off the bed. And he's a baby, like, so, like, I don't. He didn't get hurt. I don't think that's.

[Christine Schiefer]

But that's fucking terrifying.

[Em McCory]

After that, she was like, oh, so I'm just never going to have a second.

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah, got it.

[Em McCory]

Not in my arms.

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah, got it.

[Em McCory]

The last six months that they did live there, she and Jesse stayed in one room. Only if she was in the house, she was in that one room. She barely ever went into any other part of the house unless she had to.

[Christine Schiefer]

Parenting's hard enough, and now you're, like, trapped in one room because you're scared of things you can't even see, you know?

[Em McCory]

Yeah. I think she was in some rooms, like, during the day, but at night it was like, I'm in my. I don't even want to go to the bathroom. I'm just going to sit here and just make it work. There were even nights where she was so scared to go into the house that she would sleep in the car with Jesse. Or she would stand outside in the snow and just, like, stall and just like, try to be like, how long can I be out here until we have to go inside. Not only was she fed up, like I said, with being Scared of the ghosts, but also the expensive upkeep of dealing with them. She said it was causing her a fortune because so many things would just turn on and stay on all night long. Or if the ghost knew she didn't want it turned on, it would stay on.

[Christine Schiefer]

Right. And if they're, like having cold breezes and stuff and you're trying to heat the house, like, yeah.

[Em McCory]

One night she did have to go downstairs for a second. I forget what the reason was, but she had to iron a shirt. I think she, like, had to wake up early and go to work or something, but she was so exhausted and she was like, I'm just gonna run downstairs and iron the shirt really quick. I will be right back upstairs. I'm just gonna leave Jesse alone for a second. This was the only other time she did. She went downstairs to the ironing board, which was in the prison room where Freddie had that experience with the woman. And this is, I guess, where they kept, like, Jesse's toys. Leona's office, Jesse's office, the prison room. And so she's like, I'm just gonna iron the shirt really quick. And while the toys on the floor turned on and started moving around by themselves at her feet, like, imagine them just bumping into your ankles and going.

[Christine Schiefer]

Like, huh, give me a hug. Or whatever. The. Yeah.

[Em McCory]

She even singing four or five of the Thomas the Tank Engines all at once started chugging around her feet. Like, just around her.

[Christine Schiefer]

It's like a little carousel.

[Em McCory]

Forget it. She had a gut feeling that this was a. Some sort of warning sign about, like, these are Jesse's toys. Like, something's going on with Jesse. So she freaks out. She sprints upstairs, or she tries to get upstairs, but on the stairs, a solid man is standing there. And these are thin ass stairs, like, one person at a time. So there's. He is standing in her way, blocking from her baby. This area of the stairs, by the way, is where the man who died by suicide died by suicide. So we don't know if it was that guy. The theory is that it was that guy one, because it was in the same spot where he would have died. But also, this was the only ghost that ever had modern clothing on. And the guy died only a year before she moved in.

[Christine Schiefer]

Oh, wow. So it's almost like that could either be a real person or. Oh, God.

[Em McCory]

Yeah, but. So it was the only time she ever saw someone in modern clothing.

[Christine Schiefer]

Interesting.

[Em McCory]

And he was standing there just, like, in her way.

[Christine Schiefer]

Just like, not. Oh, God.

[Em McCory]

So she had no other option except to run past him or through him or something.

[Christine Schiefer]

What else do you do? The adrenaline is, like, crazy.

[Em McCory]

So she ran upstairs, and Jesse was fine. But I wonder if, like, the stuff in the. In the room started going off to make her walk towards Jesse to see the man, you know?

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah, it feels like, what was the plan? Like, was it to scare her into seeing the guy on her way back as, like, a threat? Was it, like, to protect the baby? Yeah. Who knows?

[Em McCory]

But anyway, after this, she knew, like, I'll never have a second of peace here. We have to move out. So. So they allegedly. Oh, they did move out. But allegedly, when the moving truck got there, the driver also saw a woman in the window.

[Christine Schiefer]

Dun, dun, dun.

[Em McCory]

At one point, one day, Freddie's knocking on the door, and they don't answer. And Freddie's like, oh, they finally left. Wow.

[Christine Schiefer]

It took them long enough.

[Em McCory]

Well, at one point, Vanessa, like I said earlier, looked through the deed records and saw that at this house, nobody had ever lived there beyond three years. And what are the odds she left on her third year, too?

[Christine Schiefer]

Wow.

[Em McCory]

So desperate to make ends meet because she, like, had a mortgage to pay.

[Christine Schiefer]

Horrible.

[Em McCory]

She was trying to rent the cage. It's still called the Cage, by the way. She was trying to rent it.

[Christine Schiefer]

Really needs a new brand. A brand refresh, you know, she.

[Em McCory]

She was trying to rent it out to, like, family members, but then they only, like, made it, like, two months and fled in the middle of the night. She had some friends interested, but they were like, we want to bring a psychic in first. The psychic refused to go in, so she had. She did not know what to do. So in 2010, it's been five years since she's been li. Owning this place. She lived there for three, I think, two of them. She's just paying the mortgage on a house she doesn't live in.

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah.

[Em McCory]

Eventually she contacted the spr, which we don't ever talk about these days, but the Society for Psychical Research, which I forget that they still exist because I think of, like, Sir Arthur Conan.

[Christine Schiefer]

It has such a long history. Sorry.

[Em McCory]

But. So she contacted them, and they went to the house, and they said there was a strong case that this was haunted, which I hate that they. That. That still doesn't feel like enough to me.

[Christine Schiefer]

I agree. It's like, wow, thanks.

[Em McCory]

But they said, because so many people have witnessed activity here, that alone made it a strong case. And I guess by them researching it or going into it at all, this brought, like, news to the paranormal world that the cage was super Haunted. Like the SPR went there.

[Christine Schiefer]

Right? Okay.

[Em McCory]

So like, it's like in the US When Z Pagans goes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Christine Schiefer]

It's like not like. Or when. Actually, to me, it reminds me of when Guy Fieri goes somewhere and all of a sudden he's like stenciled on the wall and you're like, oh, wow, this means something.

[Em McCory]

You know, SPR should have like tagged their theirselves.

[Christine Schiefer]

You know, they should get themselves one of those, like a spray. A pink can of spray paint at least.

[Em McCory]

Yeah. So this struck up interest in the paranormal world. So Vanessa leaned into this and started advertising the house as like a paranormal destination for ghost hunting. And so she.

[Christine Schiefer]

The rebrand. I love it.

[Em McCory]

She started charging people to stay and investigate. And one investor. Not investor, one investigator.

[Christine Schiefer]

I'll invest.

[Em McCory]

I'm not going to invest.

[Christine Schiefer]

This is angel investor.

[Em McCory]

Worst business decision. I know one investigator that came through or like paid to stay there ended up getting like burns and blisters on their legs. Which this is where I also say another reason why I drank this week. I forgot to mention this at the top, but. Oh, yeah, we were dog sitting and I have an allergy to dogs that like, shed quite a lot. And usually after like a day, like, my throat's kind of scratchy, but then it. It goes away because the dog goes away after a day. We. We've never had an extended stay with a dog like this.

[Christine Schiefer]

Right.

[Em McCory]

And it went from a scratchy throat to a swollen tongue. And then all of a sudden, my tongue started getting cysts on it. Like blisters on my tongue. I was like, this is hand, mouth and foot. Whatever.

[Christine Schiefer]

Sounds like the plague. The bubonic plague.

[Em McCory]

I was like, what the is going. I've never heard of that. And I. I knew. I looked it up and I guess that's like. It's called like oral allergy syndrome. But. But I think it's mainly for like food. Like if you eat something.

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah. Like, I know pineapples and things like that do that. A lot of times people like tropical fruits.

[Em McCory]

Yeah. I don't know. Like, why a dog?

[Christine Schiefer]

Was it a tropical fruit or Are you sure it was a dog?

[Em McCory]

Well, I. I was like, maybe a dog hair got in my mouth that had on it or something. I don't know.

[Christine Schiefer]

I mean, you're probably just breathing it in and it's like aggravating your.

[Em McCory]

I guess. So if anyone's got any those filters.

[Christine Schiefer]

For like your air. Air vents or whatever, because they're like, oh, the pet dander and Stuff like, it might just be in the air and you're.

[Em McCory]

Well, we turn an air purifier on and, like, within a day, it's like, going away, so. Oh, good.

[Christine Schiefer]

I was gonna say. Did it say red? Because when we did that, and it's like, red emergency level. And I'm like, oh, good.

[Em McCory]

No, that's just like, California air in general.

[Christine Schiefer]

Oh, that's true. You're. You're. Yeah, Sorry. Yeah. Too soon.

[Em McCory]

But. But I. Yeah, that's. That was another reason why I drank. And I forgot to mention at the top that if anyone is, like, an allergy specialist. What the fuck was that? Because that was crazy.

[Christine Schiefer]

Like, yeah, M doesn't go to doctors. M just gets diagnosed on Instagram with pink eye and over the podcast with a hand, foot, and mouth.

[Em McCory]

That pink eye socked last week too.

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah. I'm like, nobody knew you had pink eye except everyone on Instagram. And everyone's messaging me. I'm like, what? Pink eye? Pink eye. What are you talking about?

[Em McCory]

Well, I was just like, you know, I never had. I'd never had pink eye, and I've never seen anyone with pink eyes.

[Christine Schiefer]

Probably the first person who's never had pink eye in. I know.

[Em McCory]

I'm honestly impressed that I made it 30 plus years before having pink eye and mouth disease.

[Christine Schiefer]

Would your mom keep you in a bubble?

[Em McCory]

Yes, but. So I was like, what the is this? And everyone was like, babe, that's pink eye. And I was like.

[Christine Schiefer]

I literally took one look at it and went, I had that. That like, six months ago. Dude, that's really.

[Em McCory]

Yes, it is the first time. Hopefully the last time.

[Christine Schiefer]

Conjunctivitis.

[Em McCory]

Yeah, that was disgusting.

[Christine Schiefer]

It's nasty.

[Em McCory]

Anyway, that and then the. The cysty tongue was also interesting.

[Christine Schiefer]

You are new to earth sometimes. Like, welcome to our. Welcome to our failing bodies.

[Em McCory]

Just have, like, I'll. I'll be the one that gets measles next or something.

[Christine Schiefer]

I mean, seriously, at this point, I wouldn't be surprised.

[Em McCory]

Anyway, I'll just say Vanessa was letting investigators in. Some of them got burns and blisters on them. Some of them were getting bru. Bruises on them.

[Christine Schiefer]

Just like you in your mouth.

[Em McCory]

Just like me and one person, like, felt like they got stabbed in the chest. That was crazy. Which I wonder if that's a jail residual thing.

[Christine Schiefer]

Might be svt maybe.

[Em McCory]

I have had that one. One person claimed to get a picture of four ghosts carrying a dead body through Coffin Alley.

[Christine Schiefer]

Oh, whoa. Which.

[Em McCory]

That sounds crazy. So basically, in 2019, right before the pandemic Pandemic. Vanessa finally had the house cleansed by people who I guess knew what they were doing. I don't know if this was like the 30th person to cleanse it and that's what did the trick, or this was just the right people to do it. But the house was finally cleansed in 2019 and there's definitely still stuff there. But this was the first time Vanessa could come back inside and feel safe and, like, do interviews or talk to.

[Christine Schiefer]

Like, ghost hunters that long that I would still be probably traumatized. I don't know that I'd even ever go back. Back in.

[Em McCory]

Yeah. And she moved out in like 2008. So from 2008 to 2019, she's paying the mortgage on a place she never set foot in. Then it was finally cleansed enough. But she did say that it's definitely still haunted, but it's nothing like it was like she was good scared.

[Christine Schiefer]

They get rid of the bad, you know, the. The negative stuff.

[Em McCory]

Yeah. And. And a year later, in 2020, Vanessa sold the house to a woman who said she doesn't believe in ghosts. So. Good luck.

[Christine Schiefer]

Good luck.

[Em McCory]

Anyway, the cage remains notorious for not just being a witch's prison, but also being one of the most haunted locations in Britain. And that is part two of the cage.

[Christine Schiefer]

Wow. I. You know, it's weird. It's like you forget everything, but then, like, once you start hearing the story, it's like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I like, remember the. The details. I don't know. Yeah, yeah, it's kind of weird.

[Em McCory]

Anyway, good job. Thank you.

[Christine Schiefer]

Geo, my beautiful boy. Giovanni does not shed. Does not shed a single fur. He doesn't. He has hair, I guess they call it. Well, I have hair too, but guess what? I shed. Okay. And I don't know what that problem is that Gio gets to have like this luscious head of hair. But I will say, ever since I started using neutrophil, I will claim this to the day I die, that neutrophil has changed my hair for the better. My hair doesn't shed as much in the shower like it used to come out in clumps and things like that.

[Em McCory]

Neutrophil is the number dermatologist recommended hair growth supplement brand trusted by over one and a half million people. See thicker, stronger, faster growing hair with less shedding in just three to six months with neutral.

[Christine Schiefer]

Everyone's root causes of hair thing are different. So a one size fits all approach to hair growth doesn't cut it. So I use nature full the women's version when I before Leona then I use the postpartum version. They have a plant based version for those who are vegan. Neutral actually clinically tests final formulations to ensure their efficacy. I think that's why it actually works so well. In a clinical study, 86 of women reported improved hair growth after taking neutral women hair growth supplement for six months.

[Em McCory]

Start your hair growth journey with Neutrful. For a limited time, Neutrful is offering our listeners $10 off your first month subscription and free shipping. When you go to neutrful.com and enter promo code DRINK, find out why over 4,500 healthcare professionals and stylists recommend Nutrafol for healthier hair. Neutrful.com spelled n u t r a f o l.com promo code DRINK that's.

[Christine Schiefer]

Nutrafol.com promo code DRINK. You've got a lot of problems. I've got a lot of problems. You've got a lot of problems Em and a lot of them were exacerbated by the concept of grocery shopping. Especially having a third person in my house. All of a sudden I'm like, I can't just buy stuff for two people. I need to figure out like multiple meals for multiple people. Somebody who exercise all the time, someone who loves candy. That's me. And then Leona. But Hungryroot stepped in and said, don't worry, they build a grocery grocery cart for you and it comes straight over here. I don't even need to go to the store.

[Em McCory]

Imagine a personal shopper. But it's food. I mean, hello, hello. They take care of the weekly grocery shopping, recommending healthy groceries tailored to your tastes, nutrition preferences and health goals. And like Christine said, even if you have a kid in the house, that it will, they'll come up with multiple plans for multiple people.

[Christine Schiefer]

If you're dairy free, high protein, that sort of thing, they really make it easy. It's super clear and they fill your cart with like a full cart and then you can say that all looks great to me, which is usually what happens. Or if you want, you can trade out a few things.

[Em McCory]

You're going to love hunger root as much as we do. Take advantage of this exclusive offer for a limited time, get 40 off your first box plus get a free item in every box for life. Go to hungryroot.com drink and use code.

[Christine Schiefer]

Drink that's hungryroot.com drink code drink to get 40% off your first box and a free item of your choice for life. Hungryroot.com. drink code. Drink. Hello, everyone. It's me. Leona's here too. We're playing with slime and I've only ruined several pairs of pants. Anyway, I wanted to pop in real quick from behind the scenes to let you know I messed up. I know. Shocking. Really a one time thing for me feels like really unfamiliar territory. But no, seriously, I was supposed to do part two of Billy Joe Jenkins and then Em and I took like a long time between recordings and I somehow completely spaced and thought I had already done it, but lo and behold, I hadn't. So I am so sorry. I accidentally forgot to do part two on this episode. But that means it is coming out very soon and it will be in your feed shortly, so please stay tuned for that. Again, I apologize. You're playing with it. Yeah. All right. Do you want to say bye to everybody? Goodbye, everybody. All right, so I have a pretty banana story today. This one is one that I feel like Will will haunt you want people. It's really. It's really upsetting. Yeah, in a bad way. Not haunting in a fun way. So this is the story of Alicia Kozak. Ko. Hold on.

[Em McCory]

Huh?

[Christine Schiefer]

This is the story of Alicia Kozakovic. Kozakiewicz Kozakovic. I've been practicing. It's hard.

[Em McCory]

Kozakiewicz sounds like a lot of syllables.

[Christine Schiefer]

It's Polish. So on New year's day of 2002, 13 year old Alicia Kozakiewicz was at home with her family in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. It was a typical New Year's holiday. Alicia's dad watched football. Alicia helped her mom Mary prepare their traditional dinner. Do you know what's the traditional Polish German New Year's Eve meal for good luck?

[Em McCory]

I just assume like a sausage or sauerkraut or something.

[Christine Schiefer]

It's both of those things.

[Em McCory]

Oh, hey. All right.

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah. And it's funny. So, like, Saoirse added a note here about, like, the tradition and stuff and I'm like, oh, don't get me started here. I have a lot to say about this. Um, yes, it is still a tradition in Germany to eat sauerkraut for good luck.

[Em McCory]

Oh, okay.

[Christine Schiefer]

It is probably more. It's probably better known. I wouldn't say better known, but it's also common in, like, the Pennsylvania Dutch communities over here in my neck of the woods, where Pennsylvania Dutch is typically more German anyway. They're not actually Dutch. It just sounds like Deutsch Dutch. Fun fact.

[Em McCory]

Sure.

[Christine Schiefer]

But I know I've talked about that before in here, but, um, for example, the Amish So a lot of those traditions kind of came over here. But it's still traditional on New Year's Eve, which, by the way, I know, I've also said. But it's called. Do you remember the name of the New Year's Eve holiday? Sylvester.

[Em McCory]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Christine Schiefer]

And on Sylvester, it's also traditional to give little piggies for good luck or four leaf clovers.

[Em McCory]

Is it because sausage is made of piggies?

[Christine Schiefer]

I mean, probably, yeah. Probably.

[Em McCory]

Yeah. I feel like I actually, I'm so unaware of all German, German, Polish food. Like, I think I could name three, maybe like sausage, sauerkraut, schnitzel. I think that's all I got.

[Christine Schiefer]

I mean, you got potatoes, you've got beer, you've got sauerkraut, you've got cabbage of all kinds, really.

[Em McCory]

Do you have a favorite German meal?

[Christine Schiefer]

Like the little noodles? That's what Leona's making tomorrow with my mom. Little, like, hand cut noodles. And then, you know, I love a schnitzel, but I don't eat veal anymore, so it's kind of too bad.

[Em McCory]

What? What? The pasta one you just said. Is it literally just noodles or is there like a, like a sauce on it or something?

[Christine Schiefer]

Noodles usually put, like butter and salt on them and eat it with schnitzel.

[Em McCory]

Oh, okay.

[Christine Schiefer]

It's pretty good.

[Em McCory]

It's just butter noodles.

[Christine Schiefer]

It's just butter noodles.

[Em McCory]

Okay. I didn't know if it was like a thing.

[Christine Schiefer]

No, it's nothing like that. Interesting. It's just really good. Butter noodles.

[Em McCory]

Great. I like butter. I like it, girls.

[Christine Schiefer]

Me too. So anyway, fun fact for you, but. So they were preparing their traditional, you know, take on the traditional sauerkraut pork meal for New Year's. And either way, point being, the whole family's at home. Okay. What could go wrong? Mary, the mom, said in an interview about Alicia, who at this point is 13 years old. She had a very sweet soul. She was like a product of Disney. And they say that because when she watched Disney films as a kid, Alicia thought, like, this is how real life should be, you know, and so she would, every time she was happy, she would, like, sing to her shoes or like to the sun or, you know, like she was like a little mini Disney princess. Just, like, happy, go lucky. Exactly. Like you and Adina, you know, you too. And so that's. That's kind of how she was described. Just very kind of just someone who liked the magic of the world. And. And over the years, she kind of retained that, like, optimism in being like an upbeat kid, but she was also very introverted. And so as she got older, she got more and more shy. And even though she was a happy kid, she. She was very introverted, like, to be at home. And her parents were worried about this a little bit, so they tried to encourage her to sign up for things, they. To build her confidence and, and, and, you know, expand her social circle. And one of the things I signed her up for, for example, was a modeling class, which, you know, back then, good times.

[Em McCory]

Barbizon.

[Christine Schiefer]

Barbizon, right. 2002, like, that feels spot on. And so despite their efforts, Alicia was just one of those kids that liked to be alone, you know, and I get it. And so when her parents purchased a computer for the house, it was a gift for her and her brother as kind of a way to have access to the wider world where without having to do Barbizon, it was like, you can go online and learn and do your homework. And Mary, their mom, was just really excited to. For their. Her kids to have, like, access to this new technology, you know, for learning, for school work, for pursuing their own interests. But of course, we know now, you know, 2002, the Internet was relatively new for home use. And I feel like we weren't all prepared for the downsides of the Internet, especially at that time. So Alicia's brother was into online roleplay games like Diablo, and he introduced her to the Internet as well. And she found kind of her own niche interests. I mean, speaking of terror. Neopets. Right. Like, how perfect timing, right? Weird. And she found her own interests online, her own games. And then, of course, she found chat rooms. So Alicia started hanging out on aim, on Yahoo. Messenger, just in the different forums. And being the early days of the Internet, when many parents only had, like, vague ideas of what being online even meant, there wasn't like, that oversight that maybe was needed for kids who didn't realize what they were getting themselves into.

[Em McCory]

Were you ever in and. Sorry, were you ever in, like, just like the public chat rooms on am? I was too.

[Christine Schiefer]

It was a lawless, you know, it wasn't AM though. It was on something else, like.

[Em McCory]

Oh, really?

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah, one of those, like, I use aim for like, French friend groups. But I think I was on some, like, random game. And I remember, like, weird happening there and being like.

[Em McCory]

I think it was weird everywhere.

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah, it had to be. I'm sure it was because there was no. It was like the Wild west, you know, like, it's like how AI is now. Like, nobody knows what to do because it feels like we don't have any rules yet or any, like, structure.

[Em McCory]

Yeah, I remember because I feel like there was, like, a few tabs on AM of, like, away message settings, and then there was, like, group groups or online.

[Christine Schiefer]

I think I just was not interested in that for some reason.

[Em McCory]

I just wanted to try it because there was, like, categories. It was like video games or movies. And so I would click into movies and it'd be like, what are you wearing? And I'm like, no.

[Christine Schiefer]

Literally, it was just like, wow, it's. You're not safe anywhere, you know, and so thank God it was at least those obvious ones that we encountered. Right? But, like, there's so much more sinister stuff out there. So meanwhile, like, kids were becoming experts on the computer because you're. You are a quick learner, and suddenly you know how to, like, do code to make a cool MySpace with pink skulls on it, you know, like, that's what kids do. So they're chatting with classmates, they're building websites, they're interacting with people from all over the world. And Alicia, being introverted, of course, this was, like, the perfect outlet for her. She could meet people that shared interests that maybe weren't fellow Barbizon members, you know, like people who actually shared, you know, her interests. And she would spend hours on the computer, and she often went. Went to school exhausted, and she would tell she was up all night chatting with her friends online. So, you know, this was already becoming a slight problem because her parents didn't realize she wasn't being fully honest with them about how late she was staying up and that she was losing sleep. And Mary was just happy that her kids seemed to like the computer so much, which is so funny nowadays that's like, oh, you just want your kid off the tablet, you know? And it's like she's just so thrilled. They liked the top, liked the videos on the Internet, you know, I'm like, man, the golden days of just to be.

[Em McCory]

To be young again.

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah. So anyway, we're back at New Year's Eve, so it's the family. And Alicia has an older brother, by the way, who's 10 years older, and his girlfriend's over for dinner as well. It's Alicia, her parents, her brother, and his girlfriend, and her grandmother as well. So when she finished her meal of sauerkraut and sausage, she complained of a stomachache, probably.

[Em McCory]

I wonder why.

[Christine Schiefer]

Can't imagine. And she asked if she could go lie down for a while before dessert. So her mom's like, sure, sure, lay down we'll call you back when dessert's ready. So, like, 10, 15 minutes later, Alicia's older brother goes up to knock on the door and say, hey, dessert's ready. And, you know, he's 10 years older. He goes up there, he knocks, and then he calls back down to his mom and says, mom, Alicia's not up here. And his mom's like, well, don't be ridiculous. She just walked up there 10 minutes ago. Where could could she be? So she goes up there, and she's, like, totally confounded by this because she thinks, of course she's up there. It made no sense for her to be anywhere else. She's always at home. She's a homebody, and she's just a happy kid at home. And she just went up to her room. Where the hell else would she be? But despite, like, being so sure of this, they walk around and they go, oh, my God, she's not here. And they're looking under beds, they're looking in closets. They're wondering if something. If she got hurt somewhere. And they cannot understand what is happening until. Until they noticed that the front door was slightly a jar.

[Em McCory]

So are they thinking she just, like, ran away or that someone came in and took her?

[Christine Schiefer]

So now they don't really know because at first they think, like, well, did she just step outside? But then I want to also add, It's Pittsburgh. It's January 1st. It's freezing. I mean, they said it's like the pits of winter. It's ice cold. The. The sheets of ice outside. It's freezing. Alicia's winter coat and boots are inside, and they're going, okay, this was not planned either way. But knowing Alicia, she was terrified of the dark. And actually, she wouldn't even go outside to get something from the car unless a parent was watching from the window.

[Em McCory]

Oh, shit.

[Christine Schiefer]

And doesn't this just sometimes make you wonder, like, is there something deep down that. It just feels like such a specific. Well, actually, no. I used to make my mom watch when I got stuff out of the car. So maybe it's not that.

[Em McCory]

I feel like it's something. So it's so brazen, though, of someone to walk in while the house is full and get away with it.

[Christine Schiefer]

Exactly. So everyone's going, what the hell just happened here?

[Em McCory]

And she didn't scream or anything to.

[Christine Schiefer]

Didn't hear anything.

[Em McCory]

That's wild.

[Christine Schiefer]

So they're thinking, well, holy. It's unimaginable. She would have just wandered out into the snow without her coat, you know, for what like, what's going on? So Mary called the police and they arrived within minutes. However, they told the family they couldn't report Alicia as a missing person until she was gone for 24 hours. This is a 13 year old girl and like that's not a thing anymore, thank God. And so her family is like, what, like, what are we supposed to do then? Just like sit around? Right. I guess, for the next 22 hours.

[Em McCory]

Terrifying.

[Christine Schiefer]

And they said the situation's already dire. We promise our 13 year old girl didn't just wander out without shoes on and is just fine, you know?

[Em McCory]

Yeah.

[Christine Schiefer]

And it's. She prefers to be at home. She has a happy home life. It just doesn't make sense. And in addition to the coat and shoes, which is already like a huge sign, red flag, she also left her purse with the cash she had just gotten for Christmas. And if it's a 13 year old.

[Em McCory]

Girl running away, you're taking it with you.

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah, your Christmas bunny. I mean, come on.

[Em McCory]

Your lip smackers. Your lip smackers.

[Christine Schiefer]

Listen, we know, we know all the things. Yeah, all the things you'd be bringing your post it note with the password to your Club Penguin account.

[Em McCory]

Just, you never know.

[Christine Schiefer]

You never know. When you find an Internet cafe, you gotta log in. So her family, of course, just stays up all night, like, just agonizing. They can't rest, they can't sleep. Every passing minute they're just waiting and hoping like something will happen, but they're like just sitting there waiting. So they open all the curtains, they turn on every light in the house, like, hoping like maybe this will be some sort of beacon to bring her back. They just don't know what to do. And hours passed and her parents eventually called 911 again. And time they demanded action. And the Pittsburgh police decided to enlist the Crimes against children task force, which worked with federal agencies like the FBI. So very quickly it became a much more escalated situation.

[Em McCory]

Okay, good.

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah, good. So investigators arrived at the home and questioned everyone individually. And they quickly determined Alicia must have been abducted because like, again, it doesn't really add up any other way. Like, she's clearly not a runaway. And they. It's not just like the local police anymore saying it. It's the, you know, missing children task for saying, yeah, so they know, which has to be fucking terrifying for the parents. But either way, they finally get an answer in that regard. So they start canvassing the neighborhood. The police do. I mean, and as they do this, they realize, like, nobody's seen anything strange. It's. It's a very quiet area. It's. People aren't really like out and about very much and it's middle of winter.

[Em McCory]

But it's like New Year's Eve. So if someone did co op, it's.

[Christine Schiefer]

New Year's Day, so it's. Sorry. So it's the day. It's the first day of the new year. So it's kind of like that post new year, New Year's Eve, like just everyone's kind of hibernating almost, you know.

[Em McCory]

Gotcha. I was gonna say if it was New Year's Eve, like, maybe it looked like someone was leaving a party or maybe someone that now on New Year's Day, it looks like someone got hungover and is now leaving a party. So. No.

[Christine Schiefer]

Or that. Yeah. And if it's just like a teenage girl, you know, I mean, so it's a really quiet area and there was fresh snow on the ground. So it's like very muffled, you know, you don't really hear anything. And all, all the neighbors had been inside just having dinner, so nobody really noticed anything.

[Em McCory]

Right.

[Christine Schiefer]

So Mary felt completely help helpless. But a friend that she knew put her in touch with the national center for Missing Children and the national center for Missing Children told Mary that she can actually do take action now before the, you know, she can take her own action while the police are also doing their investigating. She tells me, Mary, it's crucial to bring media attention to the case. So get pictures of Alicia's face out there and make sure they circulate in case anyone has seen her when she. Since she's been abducted. And they said, you know, odds are somebody spot has spotted her somewhere if she's been abducted.

[Em McCory]

Yeah.

[Christine Schiefer]

So local media jumps on the case. Photos of Alicia are on television, newspapers, missing posters all around town. One reporter on the case later said that missing child cases like Alicia's rarely ended well. And. And the reporters themselves were like, bracing for a really dark story to cover.

[Em McCory]

Yeah.

[Christine Schiefer]

But Alicia's family and friends were just optimistic for, you know, their own sanity. They didn't want to think of the worst case scenario, even though of course that kept popping into their minds. But meanwhile, investigators are, you know, fast tracking this to trying to figure out who on earth had the opportunity to abduct Alicia. And of course, they start asking friends and family about Alicia's social life and learn that a lot of her social life takes place place on the world wide web. So the task force takes the family computer and they have to imagine read thousands of just chat Logs of 13 year old girls basically, like imagine they just have to go through AIM chat history for, for hours.

[Em McCory]

Which at least she remembered. Like she didn't like delete her history or anything. I don't know if you could even delete your history or history back then. I don't know if you were able to.

[Christine Schiefer]

I don't remember. I'm sure you probably could, but still.

[Em McCory]

Like, how far back? I guess you just have to start highlighting every single screen name that she talked to and just really get to.

[Christine Schiefer]

The bottom of who is it? Right. And the wild thing is that back then, it's 2002, they had to print it out because you couldn't just do it online. Like there's no iPad. Like you have to print it. Like, I feel so old, I'm like, wait, what? You have to print it out?

[Em McCory]

Didn't even occur to me that to someone unless they like picked up her, the, the family home desktop and brought it with them to the office.

[Christine Schiefer]

Oh, they brought the whole thing in and had to print all the logs because you couldn't like print them. Like, well, they didn't know what else to do with it. So they literally carried the whole desktop to the police station or the FBI printed it all out. Stacks and stacks of just conversation.

[Em McCory]

Oh my God.

[Christine Schiefer]

And so, you know, for the most part, as you can imagine, it's just like 13 year old girl ch. It's like talking to her friends about boys. Like I think so and so's cute. Like he, he or like did you do the English homework? You know, just like normal conversations. But when her classmates described the late nights that Alicia apparently had that her friends were not a part of, like her IRL friends, investigators were like, okay, we can at least narrow this down to like between the hours of say 9:00pm and 2:00am like if, okay, if this is an overnight thing where she's losing sleep, then we can cut out all the like just school chatter about boys and the blabber, the blabber. And that's where they discovered Alicia's friendship with a boy she had met over instant messenger. And now of course, they're thinking the obvious and the horrible, which is that perhaps she has been groomed by a sexual predator online. And the International center for Missing and Exploited Children has a definition here of grooming that I'm going to give, especially in this context, the act of befriending and influencing a child, and sometimes the child's family as well, for the purpose of preparing the child for sexual activity. This is in the case of exploited children.

[Em McCory]

Yeah.

[Christine Schiefer]

So the Maryland Coalition Against Sexual Assault describes a process of grooming and also explains that it's essential for the abuser and or groomer in this case as well, to earn a child's trust. And having this ability to identify what the child needs or desires, like what they're miss, what they feel they're missing. Missing?

[Em McCory]

Yeah, like affirmation or love or.

[Christine Schiefer]

Anything like that. And then the abuse, it's just so dark. My whole body is covered in chills. It, like, gives me just dread. The abuser then fulfills this need, offering, say, affection, attention, you know, reassurance, compliments, whatever it is that the child feels like they need to feel cared for and safe. You know, they make the child. Child feel safe. They act as confidants, very supportive, especially with shy kids, socially isolated children. They give them, like, the space to talk and be themselves. And that can be really, really put a child in a really vulnerable place. And especially if that child lacks appropriate friendships and is, like, not really sociable outside the home, then, like, this online friendship can get deep really fast. And if someone's taking advantage of that, of course, it's no good news. Okay, so one investigator involved in the case said in an interview that there are cases in which online strangers become, quote, almost surrogate parents to these children, like, because they. They seek out vulnerable kids who are. Who feel like they need, you know, some form of additional affirmation or attention or what have you.

[Em McCory]

Yeah.

[Christine Schiefer]

So this can be especially effective, you know, if. If the parents aren't aware of what's going on, if the parents aren't aware of, like, the online activity, if the kids kid is, like, really good at hiding it. If, you know, whatever the case may be, there are some instances when the parents just don't even realize this is going on. And it's easier then for these predators to, like, isolate them and make sure, separate them from their parents or their family, either physically or even just figuratively by, you know, saying, like, oh, your parents don't understand you, and like, kind of creating that distance between a kid and their actual support system and safety net.

[Em McCory]

Right.

[Christine Schiefer]

Mary, upon finding that this out, is of course horrified because, like, she just bought this computer to help her daughter feel, you know, more alive and safe and, like, free to be herself. And now it's just backfired. And in 2002, this was, like, totally brand new. Brand new. In fact, this case actually was the first one, like the first sensational online abduction case.

[Em McCory]

Oh, shit. Really?

[Christine Schiefer]

This is kind of the first one that went.

[Em McCory]

So she had no frame of reference. Like, she just thought, like, no frame of reference. I'm getting a. But also, if it was like, a family, if it was a desktop computer, she didn't know that she was harming anyone. She thought it was beneficial to the whole family, probably. Yes.

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah. And they all used it, and they used it for homework, too, and other things. So it was like. It wasn't all bad.

[Em McCory]

Right.

[Christine Schiefer]

It's just up until the person got in.

[Em McCory]

Up until that point, it was. It was just a machine. You just bought a machine to be. To add function to the family. No one ever thought machines would lead to kidnappings.

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah, yeah. There was no way to know. And there was no way to know, like, how safe the Internet really was and. Or how unsafe it was. And, you know, 2002, they were starting to bring safety because, of course, you know, the FBI is aware because they've seen it all. But at the time, like, the public just didn't realize. And so in Schools back in 2002, people were starting to talk about, like, online safety, but it wasn't really as urgent, you know, or as, like. Well, like, as thorough, perhaps, as it is today. So she never imagined that, like, she had put her child in danger. So she's, of course, agonizing over that on top of everything else. And Mary later said, you're victimized in a way in which you have absolutely no defense, um, which is just horrifying. So in 2002, you know, in addition to all the other stuff we've discussed, it was also easier to be anonymous online because technology just wasn't caught up yet. Caught up or tracking people the way it does now. Um, so people didn't quite know at first who this could be. Like, it could be anyone from anywhere. But all they knew was it looked really bleak.

[Em McCory]

And.

[Christine Schiefer]

And this is usually one of those stories where things just don't end well. So everyone was kind of bracing for impact. Then a call came into the FBI, and an anonymous tipster told the authorities he believed he had seen Alicia.

[Em McCory]

Oh, okay.

[Christine Schiefer]

And they're thinking, okay, well, go on, you know, see if this is just a prank call or something real or just a mistaken identity. The man explained he's a member of a chat room where adults engaged in discussions about their romantic and sexual fantasies. And by the way that he was talking, he was so nervous and, like, fearful and agitated that the person who picked up the phone realized, like, this is a real tip. I think he. He at least believes what is, isn't a fraudster. Like, this is a real deal.

[Em McCory]

And Also, back in 2002, it was also, like, embarrassing to talk about sexual whatever. And.

[Christine Schiefer]

And so that's exactly why this guy was totally on edge, freaked out, out. He said he's in this group. He. Spoiler alert. He's calling from a pay phone. Like, that's how freaked out he is about, like, anyone finding out about this. You know, I mean, think about it. Like, you have a family and kids. You feel like you want to say something, but you don't want to get caught up in the. The story of a teenager gone missing. You know, it's just.

[Em McCory]

And also, like. Like in 2002, like, maybe that looked like cheating in his family, like, even being in a chat.

[Christine Schiefer]

Exactly. Like, maybe you don't want your family to know. You know, maybe you just don't want that part of you to be known by anybody. But he felt like he had to say something because he said he sometimes spoke with another user on there who described their desire to keep a teenage girl captive as a sex slave. And for the anonymous caller, it was all role play and talk and, like, just talking about your fantasies. And this wasn't real. But the other user had recently messaged him and said, hey, I've finally fulfilled my fantasy.

[Em McCory]

Oh.

[Christine Schiefer]

And the guy was like, oh, no, that guy was for real. Like, that was. I thought he was just kind of telling me about his wild imagination, but this is apparently something he took too far. So the person who messaged this anonymous caller, the guy he talked to sometimes said, I finally fulfilled my fantasy. I've abducted a young teenager. And then they sent this caller a video. Video of a girl in a cage.

[Em McCory]

Oh, my God.

[Christine Schiefer]

And the caller, who's, like, totally beside himself at this point, says, she was crying in this cage. She's not wearing any clothes. It's clear she's being physically abused, also sexually abused. And he said, I recognized her as Alicia from the photos.

[Em McCory]

Oh, my goodness.

[Christine Schiefer]

And so the investigator is pressing immediately for more information. I think they had him on the call for, like, two hours or something, for, like, a long time. But when they said, you have to meet up with the FBI in Florida, the guy freaked out and was like, I won't. I don't want to do that, and hung up. And he, like I said, was calling from a pay phone. He didn't want to be in legal trouble for his participation. He didn't know, like, what that would look like.

[Em McCory]

Well, yeah, that's scary. And also, by the way, like, two Hours on a payphone. Imagine if he just ran out of dimes like that.

[Christine Schiefer]

Well, good point.

[Em McCory]

It's just like, I. That would have been a great excuse, though, like, learn how to. Any more coins?

[Christine Schiefer]

Do you think the FBI has, like, a special. Like, we'll just keep adding nickels from our end.

[Em McCory]

Oh, I wonder.

[Christine Schiefer]

Print out the chat logs. There is no way they could hack a phone system.

[Em McCory]

Bluetooth.

[Christine Schiefer]

I'm like, maybe they have a. Like a e. What do they call it? Crypto account? No, I don't think so.

[Em McCory]

Well, I. I mean, Iing. And also the. The guy sending, like, the video that also goes to show you how dated this information is. Because you could get away with sending a video maybe back to a stranger.

[Christine Schiefer]

That, like, this other person is just someone you chat with sometimes it's not like, even somebody you can trust. Like. Yeah, with information like that. I mean, I'm glad he sent it because it.

[Em McCory]

You know, I'm glad He was technologically illiterate.

[Christine Schiefer]

Stupid, Right. Well, get ready. You're not gonna believe. Oh, my God. Speaking technologically illiterate. So he hangs up. The authorities trace the phone to a payphone in Tampa. Tampa, Florida. Now, if the caller described the situation accurately, Alicia was in a very, very, very dire situation. And most abductees did not survive this. And it's been days, so who knows if she's even still alive. I mean, it feels like a Criminal Minds episode, honestly. Like this race to the.

[Em McCory]

A literal cage.

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah, a literal cage. Like the whole. The chat rooms. Like, it all feels very Criminal minds. So luckily, the man, this guy, they couldn't. They couldn't get back in touch with him. They just had no idea because of the. Because of the payphones thing. But the man, I guess his guilt got the better of him and he reconsidered and he called the FBI again.

[Em McCory]

Oh, my God. He had more dimes. All of a sudden.

[Christine Schiefer]

Okay, I'm realizing this was a two hour phone call because the first one, he hung up before they were able to keep him on the line long enough to trace a call. I don't know how long long it was, but this one was the one where they convinced him to talk for several hours. So I apologize. Yeah, I think he probably had more nickels this time. Or maybe they left him, like a discreet pile of nickels in the phone booth for him to use for this purpose. Maybe so, but either way, he called again. Agents spoke with him for several hours, trying to convince him to overcome this fear or whatever of embarrassment to save this Little girl's life. And apparently the FBI even said, I one point, like you know, you. Because he had a daughter. And they were like, just, they were like, we hate to say this, but like think of your daughter. This is someone's daughter and you're about to save her life. Does it really matter that you'll be embarrassed? And while they spoke, they traced the call and FBI agents in Florida went to the man's residence because, oh, he was no longer calling from a pay phone. He had been calling from his house. And now he was really on the hook to give them information because now.

[Em McCory]

They knew where he was.

[Christine Schiefer]

They knew where he was and they were there too. And they said, okay, what can you give us? And he said, all I have, the only identifying information I have is a screen name for this guy. And this is where I tell you this. Freaks screening Master 14 Slave [e-mail].

[Em McCory]

Wow. Really? So you're right. Totally.

[Christine Schiefer]

It's just like technologically insane to me. No, no secrecy, no shame, nothing. Just like, God damn. I mean, people still never fail to surprise me. Okay, so the FBI. Now this is a bit controversial because, well, it's about the Patriot act. But the FBI was able to use the Patriot act to, to access this guy's information really quickly without a subpoena. And that's because post 9 11, remember this is 2002, post 9 11, you know, the Patriot act was enacted and it essentially allowed the US government to much more broadly survey the, the nation and its citizens. Everything from like medical history, even what books you check out from libraries, you know, phone calls, Internet financial records. And so it gave a lot of access and of course a lot of organizations, watchdog organizations, things like that. The ACLU condemned the Patriot act as infringing on people's amendments. And so it's very controversial. It was very controversial, especially then because it was pretty brand new. Yeah, yeah, very new and very like, what's the word? When there's not a precedent, like unprecedented. And so, you know, for what it's worth, it served good this time around. And they were able to access this guy's information very quickly. And while Yahoo is generally required by law to protect its users data, the Patriot act kind of, you know, leapfrogged over that. And they were basically given emergency access to otherwise private information.

[Em McCory]

Sure.

[Christine Schiefer]

And this emergency Access was an IP address associated with a 38 year old man named Scott Tyre of Herndon, Virginia. It's how you say that.

[Em McCory]

Yep.

[Christine Schiefer]

So they did a background check and revealed that he worked as A government contractor, Computer analyst. Of course he needs to take another class about being more discreet with your email.

[Em McCory]

Dummy. Dummy.

[Christine Schiefer]

About a analyst, just for real. He was twice divorced with shared custody of his 12 year old daughter.

[Em McCory]

Oh my God. So there were times that his 12 year old daughter was alone with, with him too?

[Christine Schiefer]

Oh yeah, yeah. She primarily lived with her mother. But according to one source, Scott's daughter stayed with him over the holiday break that year and had only returned to her mom on January 1st, the day.

[Em McCory]

That this guy is now picking up another girl in Pittsburgh.

[Christine Schiefer]

And I don't believe there's ever been accusation that he did this to his own daughter, did anything like unless to ward to his own daughter. I think a lot of times that's just not how that works. But the fact that like hours after his own 12 year old daughter left, he brought in, he abducted a 13 year old girl.

[Em McCory]

It's like he like couldn't wait to have access to another kid sick. Just to be near another kid sick.

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah, yeah. So investigators called Alicia's family and asked them to come to the office to talk. I mean imagine finding your dad's email and it's master for teen sex slaves. And it's like I'm a teenage girl, you know what I mean? Like that must just be so.

[Em McCory]

I mean luckily, I mean it sucks that she was like literally the age demographic he was clearly going after. But like it, luckily she was probably too young at that time that if he wasn't doing anything to her, she probably has no idea until later.

[Christine Schiefer]

I can. Oh right. Like you can only hope because if it's shared custody, clearly like he must.

[Em McCory]

Have been a little weird around her, right? Like oh, how are your friends even worrying just about her friends?

[Christine Schiefer]

I mean if your email is that obvious, I would think your probably kind of a creep, right? Like why else would you make that your email? And if you have these inclinations, you're obviously a creep. So I don't know, it's like you're more than a creep. But you know what I'm saying? Like in social situations. But I don't know, some people are really smooth. You know, he talked this young girl into thinking he was really special and important and cared about her. Right? So like yeah, maybe he had some way with words or who knows? He's a predator, right. So investigators called Alicia's family. Oh my God, imagine. And said we have to tell you something. And it's not great. Mary didn't know what to expect. She didn't know if she was going to identify her own daughter's body at the police at the morgue, or if she was going to hear about her daughter's death, or who knows?

[Em McCory]

The la. I mean, you can't even conjure up things. She was in a cage, like, even. Yeah, that's certainly not, like, worse than finding out your daughter died or something, but that's on.

[Christine Schiefer]

But it's.

[Em McCory]

That's on a level that. Right.

[Christine Schiefer]

It's like something that you. You wouldn't even comprehend. Right?

[Em McCory]

Yeah.

[Christine Schiefer]

Like, that's just nuts. And the investigators, for, like, for their part, they didn't know what to expect either, but they wanted the family to be with them as this, like, got figured out, because suddenly things were. Were, like, rapidly progressing, and they didn't want the family out there hearing information from someone else or who knows, you know, or being in danger. They basically bring them in and say, like, here's what's going on. We're. We're. We're doing this now. So as soon as the FBI had search warrants in hand, one team arrested Scott at work, while a second team raided his home in search of Alicia.

[Em McCory]

Good.

[Christine Schiefer]

Now, it's just so chilling. They rush into the home. They're calling out for Alicia. There's no answer. The first floor appeared completely average, of course, just like a normal house. But there's a padlock door, and when you open that bad boy up, they discover a basement which actually appears to be reconstructed into a dungeon meant for BDSM activity. However, of course, BDSM is consensual, you know, or implies consensual activities. So if this were the home of Leash's abductor, that's not bdsm, just to be very clear here, with my words. So, that being said, they find all these, you know, things that point to, like, oh, you know, BDSM and, like, sex roleplay. And, you know, this guy has this crazy email. So they're thinking, oh, this, you know, I think we're really onto it here. So, you know, they move from room to room, and in one of the rooms, they find an empty cage. And in this cage are instruments which were later described as tools used for torture. And the room was empty. And there's this, like, sudden dread that we're not gonna find her alive. It's too late. We're too late. Then an agent from upstairs shouts out that there is movement under one of the beds, and they order whoever it is to come out with the. Her hands up. And Alicia, 13 years old, crawls out from under the Bed with a collar on her neck. She's chained to the floor.

[Em McCory]

Oh, my God.

[Christine Schiefer]

She is undressed and she's trying to crawl out, cover herself and also do the hands up command. They're screaming, hands up. And she's just a little kid. And so of course the team is like, rushes over, put a jacket on her, they cut off the collar, they tell her she's safe, you know, there, you know, she's probably so shell shocked, I don't even know what you'd be thinking at this point. But she went into productive custody and stayed with a family that this broke my heart. She said they were so kind that it made her sad because she felt like she'd never feel that sort of happiness again.

[Em McCory]

Oh, my God.

[Christine Schiefer]

And it's like for 13 year olds, even have that thought is like, it just shouldn't be, shouldn't. So, so not, right? So she waited all night for her parents to arrive in Virginia because, you know, they're up in Pittsburgh and they're terrified. And she's terrified that they're angry at her because she's again, a little kid. She thinks like, she broke the rules and she's like, they're never going to forgive me. I'm going to be in huge trouble. But in reality, her family, there was so much media attention that her family's flights kept getting delayed and they couldn't get on the plane. And so, oh, my God. They had to access a private plane somehow to get to Virginia. Virginia. And by the time they get there and Alicia's reunited with them, Alicia realized, like, as soon as her dad picked her up that she was finally, finally safe. And Mary said Alicia was standing there and she was so beautiful. It was as if they had brought somebody back from the dead. Because she's just been bracing herself for the worst, for identifying a body, you know, and suddenly, like, her daughter's just standing there. And Alicia went on to describe what had happened, happened to her. So on January 1, she was messaging Scott from her room after dinner, right. And she agreed to meet outside for a moment. He said, I'm in your area. Can I just meet you outside real quick to say hi? Scott had been grooming her for eight or nine months. He initially had introduced himself to her as a boy her age, of course, and had met him through a girl named Christine, who actually also turned out to be an adult man posing as a child.

[Em McCory]

Oh, my, my God.

[Christine Schiefer]

So that night, Alicia walked outside briefly and even left the door open on purpose because she was literally just going to Be like, hi and wave and come back in. Yeah. She walks down the street very briefly. It's so cold and quiet that she suddenly feels like, I'm in hu. I've made a huge mistake. And she said it just, like, hit her that she's made a huge mistake. So she turns. Turns around, but then she hears Scott, and it's. And he calls her name. And she says the PTSD has caused these gaps in her memory that she really cannot fill. But what she does remember is that after Scott called her name, she remembers being in his car and him gripping her hand so tight, she thought he would break her hand. But the bones in her hand. Scott told her if she didn't stay quiet, he would put her in the trunk. And to Alicia, she was still a kid. She had seen, like, TV shows where people are in the trunk. And she. She thought that meant he will put my body in the trunk, not like me alive. So she thought, like, he was trying to kill her. So she was like, I'm going to be quiet and obey. So they drove for hours, and when they went through toll booths, Alicia just begged that somebody in the toll booth would, like, notice her crying in the back seat. She said, somebody has to see me crying back here. But nobody picked up on it. When they arrived at Scott's home, he took Alicia to the basement, where he put a collar on her neck. He then proceeded to attack and rape her for four days.

[Em McCory]

Oh, my God.

[Christine Schiefer]

At one point, during an attack, Alicia struggled back, and he broke her nose in the attack, in the struggle. And she decided at that point that the best way to protect herself was to stop fighting back. And because Scott treated her like an object, she tried to appeal to his sympathy and tried to kind of make him see her as a person. And it got to the point where this was almost working. But she realized, like, it might have worked too well, because on the final morning of her captivity, which she didn't know, this was the final morning of her captivity. Final morning of her captivity. Scott fed Alicia for the first time since her abduction.

[Em McCory]

Oh, my God.

[Christine Schiefer]

Then he said, said, I'm starting to like you too much, so we're going for a drive tonight.

[Em McCory]

Oh. So he would have killed her.

[Christine Schiefer]

And she knew at that point, he's going to kill me tonight. So when the FBI broke in that evening.

[Em McCory]

Oh, my God.

[Christine Schiefer]

She thought Scott had sent someone to kill her because she heard someone break the door down.

[Em McCory]

Oh, that's why she was so scared.

[Christine Schiefer]

When they showed she was hiding, because she thought it was a oh, my God. Hitman. Like somebody sent to kill her. And it turns out Alicia was discovered and rescued less than 30 minutes. Less than half an hour before Scott was due home from work and was going to take her for a drive.

[Em McCory]

Oh, my God.

[Christine Schiefer]

Like, fewer than 30 minutes.

[Em McCory]

Like, in this circumstance, I don't want to say she's so lucky, but like. Like in that one moment, it's almost like.

[Christine Schiefer]

It's just like a very, like, think.

[Em McCory]

Someone for at least that.

[Christine Schiefer]

In March of 2003, Scott pleaded guilty to multiple counts, including kidnapping and sexual exploitation of a minor. Alicia gave a witness statement, and he was sentenced to 19 years in federal prison. However, he was granted early release in 2019, and Alicia nor her family neither were notified. A reporter contacted Alicia and asked if she knew about Scott's release and that he had been released to a residential center, more commonly referred to as a halfway home, where people released from prison often live to transition back into unincarcerated life. And although Scott spent his prison sentence in North Carolina, the re entry center where he was released happened to be located in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

[Em McCory]

Oh, know. And then no one told her just.

[Christine Schiefer]

So happened to be a couple miles away, but nobody bothered to let her know.

[Em McCory]

That's so up.

[Christine Schiefer]

Nobody bothered to let her mom know or her know or anything.

[Em McCory]

Lawsuit. That has to be a lawsuit, right?

[Christine Schiefer]

Well, outraged, Alicia and her family petitioned the court to force Scott to relocate away from their home. And in the end, Scott ended up violating his parole anyway by visiting pornographic website sites. So he was sent to prison for two more years. Whatever. Almost immediately following her rescue, Alicia became an advocate for children's online safety. I just imagine she has probably saved so many lives, and. I don't know, I just. I can only imagine she worked to pass laws which allocate funds to missing and exploited children. She's a speaker. She. She educates children and parents about the dangers of being online. Online. And she said when she was a child, you know, children didn't need the Internet quite as much as they do today. Like, today it's tied into education, it's tied into just everyday life, everyday communication. And so she. Her big goal is to make kids feel responsible for their own online safety rather than, like, parents feeling like they have to monitor everything. You know, almost giving kids the tools to recognize unsafe situations and realize that they could be targeted if, you know, by somebody who shows red flags or.

[Em McCory]

What, like a DARE program before.

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. So when Alicia was abducted, like I sort of mentioned, it was the high first Highly publicized case of, like, an online groomer kidnapping a child. And this concept, of course, blew up, and this became like this huge sensationalized thing of like, oh, nobody wants this to happen to their kids. Kids. And, like, nobody believes it could happen to their kids. But then suddenly there are all these rules about being online. And, you know, people started blaming Alicia, saying, well, she shouldn't have talked to somebody. Of course, parent, you know, of course, immediate victim blaming. People have been dismissive of Alicia's experiencing, like, oh, my gosh, it could have been worse. Like, you could have been killed or you were rescued in four days. Like, at least it was only four days, you know, but she like, you just you big time. Yeah. Alicia teaches in her talks that trauma cannot be measured by time, which I find to be very interesting. I mean, for what it's worth, 40s is a long fucking time, Alicia. But I do appreciate your we get it sentiment that, like. Yeah, yes. That. Yeah. Trauma, I do agree, cannot be measured by time. And so she focuses on the impact that an experience has. You know, trauma is relative, regardless of how long they lasted. So in the years following her experience, Alicia found that mental health professionals were often unequipped to address her kind of trauma. So she actually became compelled, held to study psychology and eventually earned an MA in Forensic Psychology in Chicago to just better understand how to cope with other kids who go through something like this. And she works for. Now the. She worked for a while, actually for the International center for Missing and Exploited Children.

[Em McCory]

Wow. Good for her.

[Christine Schiefer]

And, yeah, and she worked actually as their director of outreach and global impact and has taught countless courses for professionals, children's teachers, parents, on Internet safety and child exploitation. And she continues that work to this very day. So that's the story of Alicia Kozakiewicz.

[Em McCory]

Wow. Okay. Well, sounds like it. She, you know, has an interesting life after the fact, and I mean, it works. Saves people for a living.

[Christine Schiefer]

Now it's just like, no big deal.

[Em McCory]

No, we know.

[Christine Schiefer]

No big deal.

[Em McCory]

Wow. Good for her. I. That's still Terrible story. I didn't know that was the. The first online whatever.

[Christine Schiefer]

I remember the vague, like, new, you know, tabloid covers or magazine covers that were, like, the dangers of whatever, you know, kids abducted in plain sight. But I, like, I'm sure I certainly was not reading that as a kid, so.

[Em McCory]

Yeah, I wasn't either. But I now one of my. My, like, quote, comfort shows, whatever. Is.

[Christine Schiefer]

Oh, I know.

[Em McCory]

To catch. It's a Catch a predator. But they. Some of the earlier segments they did. They even interviewed children in it and said, like, how. How. What have people said to you online? Blah, blah, blah. And they're. The kids are, like, saying it, like, in front of their parents, and the parents are, like. They said that to you? Like, the parents are just so clueless as to, like, what's out there. And so there's, you know, but there was only one way to find out, and it was unfortunate.

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah.

[Em McCory]

Oh, well, good story, Christine.

[Christine Schiefer]

Yeah, thank you. Be safe out there, folks. Okay.

[Em McCory]

Yeah. No chat rooms.

[Christine Schiefer]

Red flags are. Just trust your gut.

[Em McCory]

Trust your gut. And we can go do some tarot cards now, please.

[Christine Schiefer]

I would love that.

[Em McCory]

All right, everyone, please come see our live show, especially Monterey, San luis obispo on March 14th and 15th and. And go check out our books. Go find us on Patreon if you want to hear us do a yappy hour. Yeah.

[Christine Schiefer]

Or et cetera.

[Em McCory]

Or do whatever you want.

[Christine Schiefer]

Or do whatever you want.

[Em McCory]

Yeah. As Christine says, nothing's real.

[Christine Schiefer]

Nothing matters. Nothing's real.

[Em McCory]

That's why we drink.