E423 Baby Cobra Podcasting and a Goblin Grandfather

Summary

Summary of "And That's Why We Drink" Episode E423: "Baby Cobra Podcasting and a Goblin Grandfather"

Release Date: March 16, 2025
Hosts: Christine Schiefer & Em Schulz
Description: Murder and the paranormal finally meet! Grab your wine and milkshakes and join us every Sunday for some chilling ghost stories and downright terrifying true crime stories. The world's a scary place. And that's why we drink!

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Introduction

In Episode E423, titled "Baby Cobra Podcasting and a Goblin Grandfather," hosts Christine Schiefer and Em Schulz blend their signature mix of humor, camaraderie, and spine-chilling storytelling. The episode navigates through the challenges of podcasting while delving deep into a captivating true crime and paranormal case involving a mysterious exorcism and a goblin-possessed grandfather.

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Navigating Podcasting Challenges

The One-Microphone Dilemma

Christine opens the discussion by highlighting the joys and challenges of working in audio. She emphasizes the freedom a microphone offers for spontaneous conversation and creativity.

• Christine: "There are so many perks to working in audio, having a microphone and being able to say whatever you want, riffing, you know, bantering with each other. It's just a dream." [00:00]

However, the conversation takes a humorous turn as they grapple with the practical issues of sharing a single microphone. Em questions the feasibility of maintaining clear communication without overlapping.

• Em: "I was wondering how you're going to do that with the microphone." [01:47]
• Christine: "We used to do that for our live streams. We'd find like cookbooks and loaves of bread to balance the microphone, stacking the laptop on top." [03:56]

Their banter illustrates the logistical hurdles podcasting presents, especially when striving for professionalism while embracing their playful dynamic.

Creative Solutions and Comedic Scenarios

The duo brainstorms various amusing setups to manage the microphone, from lying on their backs to using a swinging robotic arm, showcasing their chemistry and ability to turn challenges into comedic gold.

• Em: "We just need like a really long, swinging robotic arm where like we just pass to each other." [04:53]
• Christine: "Oh, perfect. Past the microphone." [04:55]

Their lighthearted approach underscores the importance of adaptability and teamwork in podcasting.

---

The Enigmatic Case of Nicola Aubry

Introduction to the Paranormal Mystery

The heart of the episode revolves around Nicola Aubry, a 15-year-old who becomes the center of a perplexing exorcism case intertwined with historical religious conflicts.

• Christine: "The story of Nicola Aubry is a blend of true crime and the paranormal, set against the backdrop of 16th-century religious strife between Catholics and Protestants." [25:05]

Unraveling the Timeline

Nicola's journey begins with a desperate plea to her deceased grandfather, leading to supernatural encounters that escalate into a full-blown possession.

• Em: "Nicola sees a man shrouded in mystery claiming to be her grandfather, igniting a series of terrifying events." [33:50]

The Role of Religious Doctrine

Christine delves into the theological underpinnings of the story, particularly the Catholic belief in transubstantiation, and how it fuels Nicola's possession narrative.

• Christine: "Transubstantiation is the Catholic belief that when you are providing the Eucharist, the bread and wine literally become the body and blood of Jesus." [26:42]

Their exploration of religious rituals adds depth to the supernatural elements, highlighting the historical tensions that amplify the story's eerie atmosphere.

Exorcism Attempts and Escalation

Multiple priests attempt to exorcise the demon from Nicola, each encounter more intense than the last, revealing the demon's resilience and malevolence.

• Em: "I think you're a demon." [48:15]
• Christine: "It's like, we are supposed to be serious journalists, but this is turning into a demonic showdown." [04:15]

The public exorcisms draw large crowds, serving as both a method to appease the demon and a demonstration of religious authority.

Climax and Cliffhanger

The episode builds up to a dramatic confrontation where the demon boldly declares his identity, leaving listeners on a cliffhanger that promises further exploration in subsequent episodes.

• Em: "I am Beelzebub." [68:12]

---

Analysis and Insights

Hosts' Theories and Speculations

Christine and Em offer their interpretations of the events, debating whether Nicola's possession is purely supernatural or if there's an underlying human element.

• Christine: "Maybe Jessica or Vernal inadvertently triggered something, or perhaps there's more to Isaac's involvement than meets the eye." [112:03]

Historical Context and Its Impact

They discuss how the 16th-century religious conflicts between Catholics and Protestants provide a fertile ground for the story's supernatural occurrences, emphasizing the era's pervasive mistrust and fear.

• Em: "The demon uses the historical tension between Catholics and Protestants to manipulate and control Nicola." [25:13]

Psychological Dimensions

The conversation touches on the psychological toll of such traumatic events on the family, exploring themes of guilt, fear, and the potential for familial breakdown amidst crisis.

• Em: "It's heartbreaking to see how the disappearance has torn the family apart, with trust eroding between Jessica and Vernal." [117:58]

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Conclusion and Future Directions

As the episode wraps up, Christine and Em reflect on the unresolved nature of Nicola Aubry's case, expressing hope for future revelations and encouraging listener engagement to uncover the truth.

• Christine: "We hope that by sharing Nicola's story, someone out there might have the missing piece that can bring closure to this tragic mystery." [117:49]

They tease upcoming discussions and invite listeners to join their "Yappy Hour" sessions for more in-depth analysis and community interaction.

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Notable Quotes

• Christine: "There are so many perks to working in audio..." [00:00]
• Em: "I was wondering how you're going to do that with the microphone." [01:47]
• Christine: "We could set... but we'd have to roll over, and it would just be a lot of grunting." [04:15]
• Em: "I think you're a demon." [48:15]
• Christine: "Transubstantiation is the Catholic belief that..." [26:42]
• Em: "I am Beelzebub." [68:12]
• Christine: "The disappearance has torn the family apart..." [117:58]

---

By skillfully intertwining technical discussions about podcasting with a riveting supernatural case, Episode E423 offers listeners both entertainment and thoughtful analysis. Christine and Em's dynamic hosting ensures that the episode is engaging for both regular listeners and newcomers seeking a blend of true crime and paranormal intrigue.

Transcript

[Cristine]

There are so many perks to working in audio, having a microphone and being able to say whatever you want, riffing, you know, bantering with each other. It's just a dream. It's my dream. If you're doing what you love to do, there's nothing better than being surrounded by people who love it as much as you do. And if you own your own business, you want to hire employees who love what they do to boost the overall success of your business, plus make it a pretty great place to work. But how do you find passionate employees who are good fit for all of your roles? ZipRecruiter and right now you can try it for [e-mail] Drink ZipRecruiter is the hiring site employers prefer the Most based on G2. How fast does ZipRecruiter smart technology start showing your job to qualified candidates? Let me think immediately. ZipRecruiter's powerful matching technology works fast to find top talent so you don't waste time or money. Hire experienced people who are excited about what they do with ZipRecruiter. Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. See for yourself. Go to this exclusive web address to try ZipRecruiter for free. ZipRecruiter.com Drink Again, that's ZipRecruiter.com Drink ZipRecruiter the smartest way to hire we're so done with New Year, new you. This year it's more you on Bumble. More of you shamelessly sending playlists, especially that one filled with show tunes. More of you finding Geminis because you know you always like them. More of you dating with intention because you know what you want. And you know what? We love that for you. Someone else will too be more you this year and find them on Bumble.

[Em]

I was wondering how you're going to do that with the microphone.

[Cristine]

Well, I also can't see you because I opened my window by accident. You know, the new we talked. We already bitched about this to one another. But how the new Apple, it like expands the window. So all of a sudden my sad true crime story just eclipsed you and I couldn't figure out how to find you again.

[Em]

It often does. That's okay.

[Cristine]

Wait a minute. That was so deep. Em Poignant. My dark stories often eclipse you in the wow.

[Em]

Thank you.

[Cristine]

It's really heavy.

[Em]

I'd say let's write a book. We've already written two, so yeah, I've been There.

[Cristine]

Done that. Thanks. Anyway, so let's just.

[Em]

Let's land on that one poignant line and then. And then not say anything else.

[Cristine]

Right. Let's quit while we're ahead. You know what? I'm so. I just want to quick, quickly say I'm sorry that I'm in my bed again. I feel like this is very inappropriate. Like, not on your. But I think it's very unprofessional. And I've realized why I keep doing this. Like, at first, it. The first couple times, it was because I wasn't feeling great, but now it's because upstairs in my office. I mean, I love my sister so much.

[Em]

Oh, my.

[Cristine]

She came to. She came to help me clean up up there. And of course, we only had a few hours, and then it got half done, you know, and so now my office is like, this.

[Em]

A cluster.

[Cristine]

It looks like a disaster zone. And I. I've tried sitting in there, and I. My allergies are so bad that if I'm up there for more than two hours, I've been waking up every morning going, oh, my God, I'm getting sick. And it's just because I've been in that room.

[Em]

Really?

[Cristine]

Yeah, because I'm. It's just so cluttered that there's no chance to, like. And it's the only, like, place in the house that has carpeting, so, like, you really have to vacuum it. Anyway, point being, I'm in my bed because it's cleaner and less dusty than my office. Barely, probably, but you know, it. The trick. So I do apologize that I'm, like, always here. I'm trying to set it up a little more professionally so we're at least a less. A little less wobbly. But.

[Em]

Yeah, I don't think that's unprofessional. I think people know what they're getting from us at this point.

[Cristine]

Okay, good. I mean, I was just saying, like, we used to. Well, I was actually looking for a loaf of bread to balance my microphone because we used to do that for. For our live streams. We'd find, like, book, like, cookbooks and loaves a box of wine and stack all the. The laptop on it. So.

[Em]

Well, I. If I could just lie on my tummy and kick my feet in the air. Like, we're just gabbin. That would be how I record. Yeah. So we probably could.

[Cristine]

We could set. Well, actually, we'd get. Our backs would hurt so fast.

[Em]

Yeah. It would be fun for five minutes. Then everyone would hear it go.

[Cristine]

We'd have to roll Over. And it would just be a lot of grunting.

[Em]

And only on my left side because of my heartburn. Yeah. So all of a sudden it's not so cute.

[Cristine]

And you see, it has to be my left side too, because of my.

[Em]

So we can spoon.

[Cristine]

But so the problem would be we'd probably run into one another and then there would become a whole Abbott and Costello bit. And it would be like, it'd be beautiful. An Emmett and Christina bit. And it would just be like this. This is not what we're supposed to be doing here. We're supposed to be serious journalists.

[Em]

I, you know, I don't know. Well, let's see if it, if the opportunity arises. I'm not going to say no to.

[Cristine]

That, so I'm certainly not gonna say no either. Absolutely.

[Em]

We just need like a really long, swinging robotic arm where like we just pass to each other.

[Cristine]

Oh, perfect. Past what?

[Em]

Past the microphone.

[Cristine]

Oh.

[Em]

Like it's just swinging over us. Like it's like a piece of medical equipment and we're on the table. You know, like if we're lying in bed.

[Cristine]

I'm so glad you're not a doctor. I'm just gonna say that real quick. I'm also glad you know how, like.

[Em]

Would you, like at the dentist? Like the thing moves around on a whole arm.

[Cristine]

Yeah. But nobody's like borrowing it from each other.

[Em]

I don't know.

[Cristine]

I also remember we've tried recording with one microphone and we talk over each other so much that it's just not possible. You can't share one.

[Em]

I don't think we've learned either. I think it would still be.

[Cristine]

Oh, it would be a disaster if.

[Em]

We had to share one microphone. It would.

[Cristine]

What if we did those old timey ones that come down from the ceiling and they have like the silver on both sides and so then you talk into one side, I talk into the other side.

[Em]

I like what you're saying, Kristen.

[Cristine]

And we're just like looking into one another's eyes. But then we're kind of doing baby cobra the whole time.

[Em]

I think we need, we need a microphone that's like a baby. We need a microphone that's like a gyroscope. So however we're lying, it knows to always sway with us.

[Cristine]

So it would be sort of like one of Dr. Seuss Geisel's cartoons from the Grinchy Stole Christmas where it's like a Gamboozler and a band do's it and a who, what's it? And it would just kind of contort to your body so you could talk verbatim.

[Em]

That was the sentence that was in my head. Yeah. Good.

[Cristine]

Okay. Because I. Yeah. I've been practicing my psychic abilities. They're getting really good.

[Em]

You got komboozle, kombucha, whatever you said really fast.

[Cristine]

So I feel like the Lorax going back to Thomas Diesel. I feel like the Lorax does have one of those, like, tube microphones. You know how he talks through it?

[Em]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Cristine]

Is what that is. You're maybe honest.

[Em]

I didn't know he was a podcaster, but that was just a secret he was never willing to tell.

[Cristine]

Should be.

[Em]

Are we okay? I do.

[Cristine]

Hey, don't ask me that in public.

[Em]

Sometimes I feel like I'm really. I feel like you and I are saying something that makes full sense, and then I remember other people.

[Cristine]

Exactly. That's what my brother and I do. And people are like. I instantly recognize that they were siblings because they speak in a way that like, you're sort of like.

[Em]

Like you should be put away somewhere.

[Cristine]

It's like, how did you follow that person's train of thought? But I do feel like we've gotten to sibling telepathy vibes. You know what I mean, at this point in the game.

[Em]

That's nice. Yeah, no, I'll take that. I'm just. I just feel sorry for everyone else who doesn't know what we're talking about.

[Cristine]

Oh, me too. I do. Pity all of them.

[Em]

Just fast forward. Eventually we'll start making sense. Cristine, why do you. What do you drink? And why do you drink?

[Cristine]

Well, I actually. Of course. Let me pick from one of my.

[Em]

Four beverages that were on the floor. Like a dirty bottle or something.

[Cristine]

Yeah, only two of them are on the floor with whatever I dropped earlier. Oh, that tissue box holder thing. Here's my water bottle. I'm just drinking out of my beautiful handy dandy. Stanley.

[Em]

It is handy for sure.

[Cristine]

It's pretty darn handy. And I will say that I'm drinking because. Why am I drinking? Oh, I got my research done early for once and great job. So thank you so much. And last night I was like, up at like 9:30 and I was like, oh, it's still early. Like, I can do some, you know, fun stuff. So I went on to some fun stuff. So I went on to newspapers.com and I just kind of started, like, perusing and I was bopping around, like, my neighborhood and I just found some just gems of like, I was laughing so hard I had to, like, silent laugh because Blaze was asleep. Um, but as I was doing that. And then, of course, today I opened my laptop and all the tabs are still there. And I was like, just one quick peek. And then all of a sudden, I'm, like, following some. Like, sometimes I get emails. I'm sure you do, too. Where it's like, there's been a hit on, like, yes, Elda Hinx. And I'm like, who the fuck is Elda Hinx? But at some point, I set up an alert for her because she was so important to whatever, like, Venture I was on.

[Em]

Well, also, if you're on Ancestry specific, I don't know if it's the same on newspapers, but on Ancestry, you don't even have to sign up. They just immediately. If you add them to the tree, it's just you immediately get notifications. And my tree has a thousand people on it.

[Cristine]

Okay.

[Em]

So, okay, I get, like, probably 70 hits a day on in my emails of, like. And they're all names. I've forgotten how they're connected to each other. So it's.

[Cristine]

Yeah, it's not like your cousin. It's like some distant.

[Em]

Yeah, but did you. Did you ever figure out who she was?

[Cristine]

Oh, so I. Well, I was looking through. Wait, who?

[Em]

The Elda Hinks? Or, like, did you.

[Cristine]

Oh, no, sorry. That was just an example. Like, as I was just saying, like, I was so. I get so invested that, like, sometimes I'll get emails that are, like, random people from 1825, and I'm like, I have no idea. Like, and it's never related to me. It's like, something about my house or. So anyway, point being, I was like, oh, I'm in one of those rabbit holes again. And I usually do this and never really find anything new. And I found something new.

[Em]

What did you find?

[Cristine]

I found a lot of new things. I realized that I wasn't searching, so I was searching in my county, but I wasn't searching in the neighboring county, which I guess. I know, I know. Well, it doesn't. Whatever. Long story. And so I started searching in the neighboring county because they had a much more thorough, like, newspaper going on about the whole area. And so I found out that, indeed, this place next to me was a dentist's office, and I now have the name of the dentist. Hell, yeah, I know. And so I was like, I have to record the podcast. So I stopped that for a while.

[Em]

I hate that feeling.

[Cristine]

I know. But it was at least something else. Enjoy. It wasn't like, like, okay, I have to go to Bed. Because I just never would have gone to bed. At least this was like. Okay, I'll. I'll pause to tell em all about it and then afterward I'll go back to it. But yeah, maybe on the Yap Yao or something. Oh, no, I know what else on the Yap y. I found this and I forgot. I think this is what we were talking about that one time that I wanted to show. And this is full of daguerreotypes. Really, really old pictures. It's a creepy briefcase that looks like it's from, like, severance or something.

[Em]

It looks like it's like some shady uncle's doctor's briefcase or.

[Cristine]

Right, exactly. It looks like I found it in the dentist's office.

[Em]

What did you call that? A degree?

[Cristine]

Oh, a daguerreotype. It's like those. Well, I'll give you one little hint because I want to save the rest for Patreon.

[Em]

Oh, okay.

[Cristine]

I'll give them a little spoiler.

[Em]

Okay. Just a teensy face.

[Cristine]

Just a little tease. It's a pretty good tease. Okay.

[Em]

Oh, my God.

[Cristine]

Oh, sorry.

[Em]

My God. Wow.

[Cristine]

Yeah, there she is.

[Em]

Oh, there she is in all her glory. I gotta tell you, I. When we were one of our. Oh, when I was in. Must have been Cincinnati or somewhere. It was on our last. On our last leg, I found a. Like a oddity shop. So maybe it was Cleveland, but I found an Audi shop full of pictures like that. And I thought that you would really like them.

[Cristine]

Oh, let me know if you remember the name. I'm so cute.

[Em]

I think they're what gave me pink eye. I think because I didn't touch my eye.

[Cristine]

What, they gave you pink eye?

[Em]

I. I feel it. I can't think of a dirtier thing I touched that day. And then I rubbed my eyes, so I feel like.

[Cristine]

So you basically put, like, cholera or like, consumption in your own eye? Yeah, well, it's called conjunctivitis. It's pretty close to consumption.

[Em]

I would say it certainly felt bad, but. No, I just wanted to say someone.

[Cristine]

Died of consumption in the dentist's office when it was converted. After it was converted to a house, I found out somebody did die in that building.

[Em]

Shut up.

[Cristine]

Of consumption. It said a woman and it was named Lily.

[Em]

And it was a house.

[Cristine]

Yeah. So it was a dentist's office originally. And then people lived in it for the. For a while, for like a few decades. And then it was just. It became dilapidated.

[Em]

Did you find any pictures of the, like, the front of the dentist's office? Like, could you recreate, like, the sign or something and, like, have, like, a little homage.

[Cristine]

You know what? That's exactly what I was thinking. Because also, I found out that one guy who lived here had a grocery store up on the main street. And so I was gonna go look for, like, advertisements.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Cristine]

Like, from old newspapers, and, like, maybe frame them in the house. Like, the guy lived here and ran the grocery store down the street.

[Em]

That's so smart.

[Cristine]

Or no, sorry, he had a cafe. That's what it was. He had a cafe. And so I was like, oh, I want to find, like, an old menu. Or, like a. Yeah, I have. And so I feel like I. You know what I was meant to say? I meant to say when you asked why I drank, I meant to say I've cacked. I've. That's not what I meant to say.

[Em]

You what? What did you actually said?

[Cristine]

I've cacked. That's not what I meant. What I've meant to say is I've cracked the case wide open, of course. Because now I know so much more. I figured out, like, new ways to search and stuff, and I found out, like, that the guy who lived here had that cafe, and I found out where the cafe is, and now it's a dog grooming shop.

[Em]

Oh, cool.

[Cristine]

Yes. I was like, maybe I go in there and say, like, hey, yeah, just look in the walls for a minute.

[Em]

I always hate when I. I get into a spiral and research a place I have no fucking attachment to, and then I, like, have no good reason to go. Approach.

[Cristine]

Then you're like, okay, I did it.

[Em]

Other than. I think I was manic for a second. Like that.

[Cristine]

Exactly, exactly. It's like, I got the dopamine, but there's not really a reward at the end. Like, I already used it up, and that's why I'm so excited about this. Like, you said it would be so cool to, like, have, like, an original old sign of the guy. I mean, I know his full name and everything. I could put, like, a little sign.

[Em]

What was the year that it was a dentist's office?

[Cristine]

1905. 1905.

[Em]

I feel like you could go to a thrift store and they probably have something.

[Cristine]

I mean, we have literally, like, 40 antique stores right here. I bet you you're right. I bet you I could just dig through, like, old newspaper clippings from in there. Just storage.

[Em]

I think you would just need one good ADHD night. I feel like I would, like. I don't know. I don't know what I would do I would get really nutty with it. So.

[Cristine]

Yeah, I'm really excited for you so that. Thank you. This all happened this morning. You know, I didn't shower, but I did. It did do that.

[Em]

I would have asked to cancel recording.

[Cristine]

I would have been like, well, the only reason I didn't, I think, is because I did so much last night that I was like, all right, I really gotta, like, chill for a sec. And so I. I did. But thank you for asking. That is why I drink. And on Yap hour, we can either talk about that if you want, or we can talk about the. The Garrow types. I have a few more. Yeah, or whatever.

[Em]

We'd like to see those.

[Cristine]

Cool. Why do you drink, my friend?

[Em]

I. I drink. I drink a London Fog, per usual. And I drink. Oh, if you. If you all went to our yappy hour last week, you know that we read tarot cards.

[Cristine]

Fiona went there when we did our big.

[Em]

When you hopped on over.

[Cristine]

Hopped on over.

[Em]

You know that we did tarot cards.

[Cristine]

Yes.

[Em]

And remember, I got. I mixed up sort of. What is it? Eight of swords with eight of cups or something?

[Cristine]

I don't remember.

[Em]

I. Well, I. I was reading the wrong section. I've. I picked one, but I.

[Cristine]

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

[Em]

And one of them, it said friendship and reunion. And I was like, oh, that's kind of weird. I don't know what that's about. And it didn't make sense either, because I picked up I was reading the wrong card. But it occurred to me later that this whole weekend, my, like, friend from college came into town and we, like, hung out. And on top of that, this is the extra weird part, is that she said that she was pulling tarot cards, she pulled the eight of cups, and she did not know about our conversation.

[Cristine]

E. No, see, that's the cool part. I love when that happens.

[Em]

So I accidentally read a different prediction, which worked out very well.

[Cristine]

Yeah, I love when that happens. And you're like. You're like, I don't even know what this means. Oh, well. And then the next day you're like, duh. Or something.

[Em]

Well, also, it wasn't even my card. Like, I was just reading the wrong part of the booklet, but.

[Cristine]

Oh, I see. Okay.

[Em]

Yeah, but it's like. It's just like, what are the odds that the part that I accidentally read.

[Cristine]

Oh, that you. And it was like, you read the card that your friend pulled too? Almost like. Yeah. Are you like, yeah, that's cute.

[Em]

And then while she was here, we were talking about, like, people we don't talk to from college again. I'm sorry, twin.

[Cristine]

That's what I thought. Okay.

[Em]

And we were talking about people that we haven't talked to from college anymore or in a while. And we decided in the middle of the night to just like randomly text all them and say hi. And so I ended up literally having a lot of reunions with friends and it became a whole m. Isn't that weird?

[Cristine]

That's a real thing. Wow.

[Em]

Yeah. So I had multiple reunions with friends.

[Cristine]

Love that.

[Em]

Yeah. Anyway, I thought that was really neat. So.

[Cristine]

So cool. See, I love tarot. It like, it feels like it's kind of just random, but then it actually does really weave into your life.

[Em]

It's pretty cool. It felt like I maybe picked the wrong card, but I flipped to the right page.

[Cristine]

Yeah, it's like. Yeah, you're. You're so like your hands are all fumbly around. We don't trust them. Just give me the booklet.

[Em]

Anyway, so, yeah, I had a weekend with her and it was very nice.

[Cristine]

Was it good?

[Em]

It was. I thought we were gonna do more, but I. I always feel bad when people come to town and I don't like give them like Hollywood, you know, Just like. She just wanted to rot. It was very.

[Cristine]

I love that. That's the best kind of guess.

[Em]

So she literally. We have like a fold out couch and she. I don't think left the couch once when she was around. What a dream. But she's been. She also does jiu jitsu. I know Blaze does jujitsu.

[Cristine]

Oh, yeah.

[Em]

And without even asking if I wanted to be a part of that, she decided. She was like, oh, can you get on the floor real quick? And just threw me like. Just flipped me like it was nothing.

[Cristine]

Don't ever let. Oh shit. You just said that out loud on a thing that Blaze can listen to. And he's gonna be like, Em's gonna watch what. Em's gonna love what I have planned. Like I'll flip them the other direction.

[Em]

It was really. It was out of nowhere. And it's not that I didn't think she could do it. Cause she was so confident in it. But we are definitely different sizes. And she, with ease, just went. And I was just on the fucking ground. It was.

[Cristine]

Holy smokes.

[Em]

Anyway, that was my weekend. I got thrown around.

[Cristine]

Which one do you think that was? Like the swords. Oh, something we're stabbing. Oh, the three of swords.

[Em]

Felt like I was the fool. Felt like.

[Cristine]

Oh, the fool. Actually spot on. Yeah. Yeah.

[Em]

Anyway, so she. She Hung out. We didn't really do too much. It was just like a relaxing weekend. I felt bad that she flew across the country for a weekend and, like, didn't sometimes need that.

[Cristine]

You know, you just need some time to. I guess that's how it goes.

[Em]

When I fly across the country to see you, it's like just kind of a Ghost Avengers marathon.

[Cristine]

I just, like, never make plans because I'm like, I don't know. If you want to see the museum, we can do that. Or the aquarium, but most people don't really care unless they have kids. So I'm like, let's just. Let's just eat my favorite foods and that'll be my introduction to the town.

[Em]

Perfect. Anyway, so that was very lovely. I ended up being affirmed in a weird way with the tarot from last week, so.

[Cristine]

Oh, I started writing a little grid for you. By the way, is the one I. Sorry for myself too, but, like, a grid of, like, the tarot.

[Em]

Oh, thank you.

[Cristine]

Numbers and. Because I. I was looking for mine to send you that I had downloaded, and I realized it wasn't quite as, like, succinct as I had remembered it being. So I'm trying to kind of make it more. Hopefully, because our brains work in this sick way we just discussed. Hopefully the way I do it to make sense to me will hopefully make sense to you. If not, we can tweak it.

[Em]

I only want a version of it that you create at 3am though, otherwise I won't understand.

[Cristine]

Oh, well, I barely recall what it is that I was typing or writing and what location. A physical notebook, a computer. Nobody knows. I'll find it eventually.

[Em]

It sounds deranged, which means it will work perfectly.

[Cristine]

Thank you. You get it.

[Em]

I just really have never understood the concept of doing something on time. And, well, because somehow it doesn't turn out the same. It doesn't have the X factor.

[Cristine]

Like, you don't need that methodical approach. You can be method, but, like, fucking swift about it. You know what I mean?

[Em]

It was so. It definitely turned me the wrong way. But in college, anytime I wrote a paper, if I did it early, I always got a worse grade than if I just procrastinated and got real creative with it.

[Cristine]

It's a curse because it's more miserable.

[Em]

Yeah. It taught me to be worse, right?

[Cristine]

Absolutely.

[Em]

Anyway, speaking of things I do in the middle of the night, here's a story for you, Christine.

[Cristine]

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[Em]

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[Cristine]

Ultimately, it's all about starting good habits. Making a positive change is the best resolution you can make for yourself, and Audible can help. There's so much opportunity and more to imagine when you listen. Let Audible help you reach the goals you set for yourself.

[Em]

Start listening today when you sign up for a free 30 day trial at audible.com drink so Christine, Allison and I, we were up really late last night. Our timelines are completely off when it comes to a normal sleep schedule and we could not figure out what we were going to do for food. It was too late to order anything. We didn't want to make anything that was going to take forever. And we landed thankfully on Goodles.

[Cristine]

I know, I feel like, I feel like Mac and cheese used to have a bad rap of like being, you know, something that you just do last minute. But with, with Goodles, seriously, Leona will like plan out which ones she wants to try throughout the week and we have like a routine and it's like a real meal. I mean it doesn't feel like kind of that last ditch effort. That's because Goodall's line of Mac and cheese has so many great flavors. They have vegan and gluten free options. And don't tell Liana, but each serving has 14 grams of protein. Don't tell em either. 7 grams of fiber with prebiotics and 21 vitamins and minerals from real plant sources.

[Em]

It's low glycemic index food for steady energy. Instead of a carb crash which that's like the best and worst thing that ever happens to me. The second I eat a carb I'm out cold. And it's kosher and clean Label purity Award certified.

[Cristine]

Trust us, you need some good old Mac and cheese in your life. And don't forget they're nutrients packed pasta too.

[Em]

Pick up Goodles on your next shopping trip. It's available nationwide at major grocery stores and retailers.

[Cristine]

We know you'll love Goodles as much as we do.

[Em]

This one I'm gonna Tell you now is not a one parter. What could that mean?

[Cristine]

A one parter.

[Em]

What could that mean? Isn't that fun? Those double negatives.

[Cristine]

No, it makes my brain hurt.

[Em]

Well, I also. I don't know how many parts it's going to be. I think it's gonna. I think we could do it all in two. It might be a three part, so.

[Cristine]

Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay.

[Em]

It was just too. There was no way that we were gonna get through it. So it's two parter for you. Fun.

[Cristine]

As long as we're not doing that thing where we. I do a one parter, you do a two parter. Whatever the hell. We did that one time.

[Em]

Are you doing a one parter today?

[Cristine]

No, no, no. I said as long as. Thank God we're not doing that. I feel like we did something recently that was, like, real wild, but.

[Em]

No, I feel like we did, too.

[Cristine]

I am good for an any parter.

[Em]

Well, this is the first chunk of the exorcisms. That's plural.

[Cristine]

Oh, my.

[Em]

Of. I think the way you pronounce it is Nicola Aubry.

[Cristine]

Oh.

[Em]

This is also known as the miracle of Law, which is a town in France. Yeah. At least by the end of the story, they end up in Blanche.

[Cristine]

Okay.

[Em]

It's all over the place. You'll see why later. But we begin in her hometown. And this is in the 16th century. I gotta tell you now, just for context later, that this will be a running theme through however many episodes it takes to do this story. But this is in the 16th century. This was a big time for the Catholics versus the Protestants.

[Cristine]

Oh, they loved. Yeah. Oh, they were all riled up, all of them.

[Em]

They loved the hatred, I think.

[Cristine]

Oh, they were. They loved the drama of it. For sure. They did.

[Em]

I get it. So there's gonna be a few times where I just say the Protestants as an overwhelming overarching term. But there are specifically Calvinists involved and Huguenots. And I'm sure that they would all just hate to be called Protestants and lump together, but whatever. That's the only way my brain works.

[Cristine]

Listen, the United States education system has probably failed us in countless ways, and let's just blame this on them.

[Em]

Well, I don't know if you can speak to this. You certainly could more than me. But one of. Just if you can confirm or deny and if you don't know, that's fine. But at least as far as this story goes, the main difference we care about between the Catholics and the Protestants is that. But they had a huge belief difference in transubstant. Just say it.

[Cristine]

Substantiation. Okay.

[Em]

Would you like to explain to the class what it is, or should I give it a whirl?

[Cristine]

It's literally my favorite thing to talk about.

[Em]

Perfect.

[Cristine]

Transubstantiation is the. And I've. Honestly, probably somebody could clip. Speaking of Jack cutting bloopers, like, somebody could probably clip 16 instances of me across podcasts talking about this.

[Em]

I do remember you saying it. It before. So, you know, rituals.

[Cristine]

That's where we talked about it. I was like, I've extensively discussed this on rituals. No. So basically, the idea of transubstantiation is the Catholic belief that when you are providing the Eucharist to the congregation, the.

[Em]

And the Eucharist is the little wafers. Right.

[Cristine]

So the Eucharist is just the actual. It's so there. Okay.

[Em]

That's okay.

[Cristine]

I'm sorry.

[Em]

I didn't mean to put you on.

[Cristine]

No, it can. It can. It can reference the wafer, but the Eucharist is, like, the actual whole ritual of it. I was trying to think of the word. Yeah, okay. So it's. The ritual is the Eucharist. So when you offer the Eucharist, which is like, the gift of the body and the blood you are giving, you know, the priest blesses the bread and blood of the bread and wine, which becomes the body and blood of Jesus. And transubstantiation argues that it's literally Jesus's body and literally his blood. And so when you're drinking the wine or eating that little wafer, you're physically imbibing Jesus's body. Physically, Literally, not metaphorically. So that is my understanding of transubstantiation.

[Em]

That's about exactly what I was gonna say. Except you said it better.

[Cristine]

I just think it's fantastically wild that they literally are like, yep, we still stand by that.

[Em]

Well, I know we definitely talked about that on rituals because we would. Like, how on earth can the Catholics think that? Like, it's like, that's not a ritual. Like, it's really.

[Cristine]

Right, exactly. It's like the ultimate ritual. You're literally saying you're cannibalizing.

[Em]

Cannibalizing.

[Cristine]

Yeah, exactly.

[Em]

Also, if I were worshiping someone, I don't know if I'd want to eat them.

[Cristine]

I know.

[Em]

Okay.

[Cristine]

Trust me. You sound like a Huguenot right now. You know what I'm saying?

[Em]

My dirty Protestant.

[Cristine]

I guess, dirty Calvinist, just whatever. Probably just, like, actually offended a bunch of people. I have no idea what that means. Please, please don't yell at Me.

[Em]

You can be offended by me. That's okay. I gotta be on. If you think it's weird that I think it's weird that you're cool with eating skin and blood.

[Cristine]

Well, that's Catholics.

[Em]

Whoops.

[Cristine]

I think the Protestants were a little, like, so far.

[Em]

I'm team Protestant.

[Cristine]

Yeah, I think they're a little less, like, intense about the ritual stuff. Maybe that's my vibe, but I don't know.

[Em]

So my understanding is during this time, I think they, I'm sure, had multiple arguments in terms of, like, doctrine and beliefs. But the one that matters for this at least is that specific thing that, like, it becomes the body and blood of Christ or is it just like.

[Cristine]

Well, I'd be remiss, right? Is it like, metaphorical? And I'd be remiss, not to mention Martin Luther, not to be confused with Martin Luther King, who, Who nailed his theses on the church.

[Em]

Okay. You know, no, you sound so smart to me right now.

[Cristine]

Okay. He wrote. He pinned his 95 theses to the church door. And he's a real lumpy looking fella, but basically he had a lot of thoughts about. And he's the one who like, split from. He's the Martin Luther. Lutheranism is. He's a base of Lutheranism, which is a branch of Protestantism. Anyway, he had all these theses. He had 95 of them. I'm sure one of them was about fucking eating the blood and body and whatever. But yeah, I'd have a big stapler to put that on the wall, but whatever.

[Em]

Well, so anyway, that's the. The big thing this time around. And I. Not only did the Protestants or I don't know which version Calvinist Hugan is, I don't know, the Protestants, they not only would say, like, that doesn't literally happen, it doesn't just materialize into skin that you're eating, but it's also idolatry in some way. I guess I don't know enough about religion. I'm so sorry, everybody. But anyway, they're. They are against the fact that this stuff turns into the actual body and blood of Christ. That's all that matters. And in this case I'm talking about with Nicola Aubry, this case was later used by the Catholic Church in their, like, big war against the Protestants. They use this for their own agenda of, like, see, Catholicism is right and you're wrong.

[Cristine]

Okay, I'm intrigued.

[Em]

Okay, so we start not too long ago, 1565.

[Cristine]

Yeah.

[Em]

And this takes place from November to February. So it's four months. And the main character is a 15 year old named Nicola Aubrey. And a lot of the notes that I got, I feel like, okay, I ended up doing two rounds of notes, which like means I did like a lot more work than I planned on doing. But there was a whole set of notes I did. And then I found this like book which I read.

[Cristine]

No.

[Em]

And it was like a 60 page book so everyone relaxed. But it was still like to me a novel.

[Cristine]

That's a lot of pages to read just on the fly, you know.

[Em]

Thank you. Well, because I read like the first chapter and I was like, that isn't anywhere in the fucking notes that I got.

[Cristine]

Oh, geez. No wonder Astonishing legends has like 11 books that they read per episode. I'm like, where do you get this stuff? Oh, books, all this.

[Em]

It was. And by the way, when I say got the notes I got, I didn't mean like our, our researcher sent them to me. I did all these notes by myself. But when I say I got, I mean I did my own notes and I thought I was done. And then I read this chapter as like a last ditch. Like, let me just read this one link.

[Cristine]

There's danger. You're like one more source. And then it's like, surprise.

[Em]

And then I went, what the fuck? This was nowhere.

[Cristine]

So it's like me and my fucking ancestry or my newspapers. I'm like, just one peek at this article. Oh, who's Helen? You know, and then I'm like off to the races.

[Em]

And also now I'm terrified that there's several other books with several other pieces to the story that I just don't know about.

[Cristine]

I'm sure there are, but you know what? It's too late. I was gonna say we're 400 some episodes in. I'm sure the same is true for all of our stories, so don't worry.

[Em]

Okay, so this I got from the book and it was written by a reverend who was recounting this whole experience.

[Cristine]

Oh, okay.

[Em]

So, okay. 15 year old Nicola Aubry.

[Cristine]

Wait, what's the book called? Just so we have the Triumph of.

[Em]

The Blessed Sacrament over Beelzebub by Father Michael Muller in 1877. So that feels like a long time ago, but it was so I love that book.

[Cristine]

I have it on Goodreads.

[Em]

You can find it on Audible.

[Cristine]

Read by the author.

[Em]

Yeah. Read by Beelzebub himself.

[Cristine]

Read by Beelzebub.

[Em]

Yeah. So that seems a long time ago because he wrote it in the 1870s, but. But also that he still wrote it like, 300 years after the book is, right in the middle of when it happened to now.

[Cristine]

Oh, I see. It's like that thing of, like, oh, did you know that Cleopatra was closer to Justin Bieber? And you're like, what are you talking about? Stop breaking my brain.

[Em]

Yeah, apparently Abraham Lincoln and fax machines were around at the same time. What?

[Cristine]

See, I can't abide by that. That's actually really not okay.

[Em]

I actually rebuke it. In the name of God, I rebuke it not to be. So on the.

[Cristine]

Let's add another exorcism to that list of exorcisms you brought today.

[Em]

Okay, so she's 15. She goes to her grandpa's grave, and she begins praying for him. And soon, this man appears before her, and he's covered in a shroud so she can't see what he looks like. But he says, I am your grandfather. I feel like you could just take the shot off me.

[Cristine]

I am your grandfather.

[Em]

It's like, okay, next time I want.

[Cristine]

To trick somebody into thinking of someone else, they'll just put a big blanket on and just say, I'll put a sheet on my head and say, I'm. I'm Dr. Seuss.

[Em]

I am the Lorax. I speak for the trees. Yeah, so apparently this thing, like, couldn't reveal himself to his own granddaughter, who knew you well enough to go pray for you.

[Cristine]

Yeah, it's just a weird. Like, is it like you're trying to be, like, mysterious?

[Em]

Is this, like, something wacky?

[Cristine]

Grandpa, does he say, did you always wear a shroud? Like, is that part of his look? I don't know.

[Em]

Is he still. Has he still lost his marbles in the afterlife?

[Cristine]

Oh, no, he. He still thinks, like, the beach towel is. Is a cape, but not a beach towel. But it also feels like maybe his burial shroud maybe. You know, like, maybe he was buried in it. And then I was like, oh, the corpse of me is here.

[Em]

I guess so, yeah. We'll never know. I wish I could talk to him myself. Jk, I don't want to do that.

[Cristine]

Yeah, I don't either, but.

[Em]

So she did not feel safe about this and ran back home because she was like, my grandpa. That's fucking crazy.

[Cristine]

Can you imagine? Wait, honey. What the fuck makes me feel safe?

[Em]

If my grandpa appeared when I was seven, sitting on my bed in a shroud and said about it, I am your grandpa. I'd be like, that's too much. You're doing all your work.

[Cristine]

You're actually Beelzebub.

[Em]

Yeah. And so anyway, she runs home, but when she gets there, the man reappears, now without the shroud.

[Cristine]

Oh, thank God.

[Em]

So, like, you didn't need the shroud the whole time. So. Okay, whatever that was, like, just for, like, the theatrics of all.

[Cristine]

Yeah.

[Em]

I was gonna say he's like, I need. Like, I only get so many costume changes that people witness these days.

[Cristine]

Didn't I get it?

[Em]

So after he's. He's no longer wearing the shroud, he appears at the house, and she could see this was her grandpa. He tells her that he's in trouble and he's coming to her because she was just praying over him. And guess what? He's in purgatory. It doesn't look like it. You're right here.

[Cristine]

Hey. Yeah. You just said you're here. Can you pick Elaine? Exactly. And. Exactly. And by the way, you were over there a minute ago, and I really appreciate if you didn't just, like, jump from place to place.

[Em]

Right. So are you in purgatory or at the graveyard?

[Cristine]

Or you might be teleporting, right? Like, pick a fucking spot.

[Em]

And where do you keep your closet full of shrouds?

[Cristine]

Is that I was gonna say, does the shroud just go into a fucking wardrobe? Where does it go?

[Em]

So he says he's in purgatory. And he. The only reason he did that, despite doing all the right things, apparently, is that he promised to God that he was gonna make four different pilgrimages to different locations. And he never got to do those four pilgrimages. So when he died suddenly, he never even got to, like, apologize for that or ask for forgiveness or something. So now he's in purgatory, so he.

[Cristine]

Wants to travel more.

[Em]

Well, so, yes. However, he did say, since I can't do it on my behalf, since you're my family, I need you to do these pilgrims.

[Cristine]

You can't just, like, ask someone to do a pilgrimage for you. That doesn't. It's not how that works.

[Em]

Yeah. Unless it's to, like, get coffee. I don't really want to.

[Cristine]

Down the road. Yeah, that feels like, really a big ask.

[Em]

If someone said a pilgrimage, like, back to my house to, like, rot on the couch.

[Cristine]

Yeah, yeah.

[Em]

Pilgrimage away. Here we go.

[Cristine]

Yeah, it just feels like. No, no.

[Em]

Well, he then tells her, like, it's not only up to her. Like, a family all has to go to finish his pilgrimages so he can go to heaven. And by the way, there were four. Three of them were in France, so. Okay, local, fine. One of them Was in Spain. And then after being told this, Nicola, she passes out. And then she wakes up and tells her family what she saw. Okay.

[Cristine]

She.

[Em]

I don't feel like my grandma would. My grandpa would make me pass out. Although I did fall asleep immediately after I saw him.

[Cristine]

I was gonna say maybe she just was, like, fell asleep. More than fainted.

[Em]

Had a doze. Yeah. So she didn't want to inconvenience her family. Love that for her. Classic woman, right?

[Cristine]

Classic woman. Yep. Passive.

[Em]

So she told them all, hey, grandpa showed up. And also, here's this thing. He said we have to all go to France to, like, three different locations and do pilgrimage for pilgrimages for him. Did not mention Spain. Did not want to inconvenience them. So she thought maybe if I do just three of the four, like, that'll be enough.

[Cristine]

Oh, I see. Okay.

[Em]

After doing all of this, which I feel like if you're already bringing up your dead grandpa bringing you a message, maybe just go to Spain. Make a vacation out of it.

[Cristine]

Yeah. At this point, it's like you're all in. You know, you can't turn back now. You might as well commit.

[Em]

Maybe Spain was, like, not that great in 1565. I'm unsure, but it was awesome. I bet you could have found something fun to do for a second after they go to. They do all three locations in France. The whole family. Yay.

[Cristine]

That feels worse than doing none of them. Like, to do most of them and then be like. And not that one. Like, that feels so dismissive.

[Em]

Just an unfinished to do list. Yeah. Yeah.

[Cristine]

That would feel like, oh, my God, he's almost out of purgatory. But I'm gonna stop there. There.

[Em]

Like, what are you doing?

[Cristine]

You're close. You want to step closer.

[Em]

It's almost like now he can see the door, and it's open. He just can't walk in.

[Cristine]

It's worse. I think so.

[Em]

Well, maybe this was her. His revenge on them. Because after doing all this, all seems fine. And, well, she has nearly fully helped her grandfather. But then one day, she's getting ready for church, and an invisible force grabs her, drags her under the bed, and she begins convulsing.

[Cristine]

Oh, my God.

[Em]

And I will say, up until this point, according to one source and one source only, she did not have any medical history anyone would associate this with, except for, like, chronic headaches, but that's it. She then tells her family that she, like, after the convulsion, she's like, oopsies, Sorry. I actually think that was grandpa and he's pissed because we didn't go to Spain. Whoops.

[Cristine]

So they're like, spain. She's like, oops, I forgot to tell you.

[Em]

Forgot to tell you. Which. Which I wish my grandparents would punish me if I didn't just go on a trip to Spain.

[Cristine]

But seriously, I was joking. But I'm like, okay. Unfinished travel. Yeah, it's not the worst burden.

[Em]

So I didn't see this in the original conversation anywhere. And I was reading the book that I read, it felt like it was pretty much a word for word translation, which who knows how true it was after 300 years, but it seemed to be covering everything, like a full account. Yeah. And yet it was never mentioned until only now when she's saying, oh, yeah, I just had this convulsion. Grandpa wants us to go to Spain, and if we don't fulfill his wishes, he's going to make me deaf, blind and dumb. Which I know are all, like, not worldly words that we say anymore. As I said it out loud, I went. I should have not said that.

[Cristine]

Yeah, yeah. I'm assuming that's a direct quote.

[Em]

Yes, it is a direct quote, except for Grandpa wants us to go to Spain. Well, maybe it was the exact threat that he. That he.

[Cristine]

Well, just say in front. Which then will be exact quote.

[Em]

Yeah, yeah. Je ne vapa. I cannot see.

[Cristine]

Oh, no. Oh, my God, that was so good.

[Em]

Thank you. I don't even know if that was true, if that was.

[Cristine]

It sounded right to me.

[Em]

Thanks. Around this time, she also started getting really sick. She was refusing to eat, and now she's speaking in a gruff voice that she says, is Grandpa. Grandpa's starting to sound really dark.

[Cristine]

Yeah. Is Grandpa actually Beelzebub? Like, you know what I mean? Like, is.

[Em]

Yeah. Like, what's going on here?

[Cristine]

I don't know. I'm worried now for them.

[Em]

So. So they. They thought she might be losing it. They're like, oh, God. She's like, really taking his death hard, it seems. So they wanted to appease her, but they didn't want to go to Spain. I wonder if they just, like, couldn't afford it or like, honestly, maybe politically, historically, something. I don't know.

[Cristine]

No, totally. And I feel like I was about to just make up a totally fake fact and be like, you know, how the war of whatever. But no, I'm not even gonna.

[Em]

Again, I'm not the Spanish in Inquisition or something.

[Cristine]

Yeah, yeah, sure, sure, sure. Yeah. No, I don't know enough about history to make jokes about it, but I was gonna Say, yeah, maybe like, if they were like, just. Were they working class people? Do we know? Like, it.

[Em]

I don't really know.

[Cristine]

It's like, say they even had just like a farm. Like, you can't just leave, you know?

[Em]

Yeah, that's a good point.

[Cristine]

Yeah.

[Em]

And if she's, like, really sick, you don't want to, like, take her to Spain. So they, I guess, wanted to appease her. And they were like, okay, we're all gonna tell her we went to Spain.

[Cristine]

Oh, come on. Oh, my gosh. This is just like a sitcom, like, episode. Everything's going wrong.

[Em]

Her family literally dresses up as if they're about to go on a pilgrimage.

[Cristine]

Like, with sunscreen on there, like, I.

[Em]

Imagine like a big mosquito net hat.

[Cristine]

I don't know, binoculars dangling.

[Em]

And they all say, okay, bye, feel better. We're gonna go to Spain on your behalf.

[Cristine]

Stomp around on the porch, like, what are you talking about?

[Em]

And they went to work. They literally just went to work.

[Cristine]

And everybody's like, why are you wearing.

[Em]

And why are you back in 24 hours?

[Cristine]

Like, why are you wearing socks and sandals to work today?

[Em]

Weird that from your 9 to 5, you were able to come right back from Spain.

[Cristine]

From Spain.

[Em]

So without knowing, like, that this was their little plan. Nicola later tells her parents or someone who stayed behind to take care of her. She says, this is a quote. Have you no pity on me? My grandfather says he will torture me and wrench all my limbs because the pilgrimage is not made. They have not left the city. Lewis is in his father's house sitting near the fire, and my uncles are at work. So she clocked them real quick. This is what officially freaked them out. They're like, oh, you're not losing it. This might be spiritual. So convinced that something has got a hold of her, her parents call a priest, bring them up and say, do your little exorcism thing, because I think something evil's going on here. And when, as she's hearing this, certainly.

[Cristine]

Not going to Spain. Anything but that.

[Em]

If we will pay you the price of a tip, a trip to Spain for you to come, seriously, will you.

[Cristine]

Actually do the pilgrimage? That would be really nice.

[Em]

They actually really, now that I'm thinking about it, seem to hate Spain.

[Cristine]

Yeah, I wonder if there was something. You're probably right. There's some probably geopolitical thing that we're just completely ignorant of.

[Em]

Maybe.

[Cristine]

Yeah.

[Em]

I don't know. Okay, so they bring in a priest. I almost don't even want to bother you with the names of the Priests. Because so many priests are going to get shown up in this story. And by the time I tell you next week's half, you're not going to remember these names.

[Cristine]

So I'm going to say we'll just lump them together.

[Em]

You know, I'm going to say the names, but you do not have to remember them.

[Cristine]

Okay, great.

[Em]

Okay. Just know that they're like, okay, you're fine. You'll figure it out.

[Cristine]

What if you said, yeah, I'm going to say a bunch of names of priests. You have to remember them. That feels like I'm back in school. Catholic school.

[Em]

Get your gargoyles out now.

[Cristine]

Literally back in school.

[Em]

So she hears her parents saying, like, we need an. An exorcist or a priest to come through. Nicola starts fainting again. Because now this is just like a common thing with her. Now she's been taken by this thing. She's fainting again. And on her way out of consciousness, she says, grandpa requests this particular priest to do the exorcism.

[Cristine]

Okay.

[Em]

This thumbs up. This guy's name is Father Lautrechette. It does not matter. But he's just the first of many. So he comes over, and Nicole, who. Or Nicola, is fully possessed now by a spirit. Just so you know, now this thing is speaking within her.

[Cristine]

It's like, ready to party now? Because the priest is coming.

[Em]

Yeah. I also would like to note that it's interesting. She was seeing grandpa and then relaying what he said during their conversations, but now something's speaking through her.

[Cristine]

Yeah, it feels like now that the priest is coming, the thing took over.

[Em]

We're switching it up.

[Cristine]

Yeah.

[Em]

Okay. So without moving her mouth, out of her mouth comes, I am the soul of Insert Grandpa's name. I can't pronounce it, so I'm not going to try. But I am the soul of this person's grandfather. And while the priest asks more about grandpa and what's going on and why he's in purgatory, something feels off. And so the father says, hey, are you. Are you not the grandpa? Are you just an angel that's trying to make contact with us?

[Cristine]

Quick cue for you.

[Em]

And then the spirit goes, yes, yes. I'm not the grandpa. I'm actually an angel. I'm a good angel. Oh, no.

[Cristine]

That's such a red flag, right?

[Em]

If you have to say I'm a good angel. No one was wondering until you said that.

[Cristine]

Can I give you an example? That I feel like somebody knocks on the door, and you're like, hello. And they're like, hi, I'm here from Cincinnati Bell. I want to work. I need to fix your thing. And then you're like, oh, you mean like the Duke Energy? And they're like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm in Duke Energy. Then it's like, wait. You know what I'm saying? Like, it feels like way, way, way, way, way. Either you're one or the other. You can't just jump onto my idea and pretend like it's yours.

[Em]

It's like. It's like hearing a kid in the other room go, everything's fine. It's like.

[Cristine]

It's like hearing Leona go, this is not blue. This is not Blippi. And I'm like, fucking, no, it's Blippi again.

[Em]

Well, exactly like that, except it' Same.

[Cristine]

Same difference.

[Em]

So this thing says, I'm not the grandpa. I am. You caught me. I'm a spirit. I'm a good angel.

[Cristine]

Oops. But I love you.

[Em]

I. I lied. But it's actually even better than I was gonna say.

[Cristine]

But, you know, I'm not allowed to lie because I'm an angel, but I did it anyway.

[Em]

Bingo. And so the priest said, I call bullshit on that, because the good angels, first of all, why would you call yourself a good angel? It's so weird. Also.

[Cristine]

Well, because fallen angel, because, like, isn't loose for an angel.

[Em]

I see. Now, see, this is someone without a religious background going, why? And there's apparently an answer for everything.

[Cristine]

Yeah. This is someone who deals with their crushing Catholic trauma by watching shows about Catholic exercises.

[Em]

Well, the priest says, also, on top of all this, good angels can't possess somebody who didn't, like, invite this in. So, like, what is going on?

[Cristine]

Pretend to be someone else. Yeah, it's just. No, no, no, no, no.

[Em]

And I think you're a demon. That's pretty much how it ends. And as soon as he says, I think you're a demon, Nicholas Lock faints, as in, like, this thing just floats away. Like, oops, I don't actually want to talk to you anymore. So the priest, he's out. He's like, okay, I clocked that as a demon. I don't want to do this anymore. So.

[Cristine]

Oh, oh, and Grandpa specifically requested.

[Em]

Requested him.

[Cristine]

That's gross. Because that. That means it was, like, the demon. I wonder if he was, like, the weakest priest, and the demon was like, I wonder.

[Em]

Or, like, just sense that he would be the most scared or something.

[Cristine]

The most vulnerable or something.

[Em]

Yeah. So anyway, he said, okay, I've done my part. I'm out.

[Cristine]

And, like, you see, it worked.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Cristine]

Truly.

[Em]

So then the city gets together. The city of priests, the council, if you will. They get together and they're like, okay, now we're going to bring in a new. A new priest. This one's name is Father Damada. And I really hope he started his first exorcism with. What's Damada with you?

[Cristine]

What's Damada today? No. Then he'd get punched in the face by everyone.

[Em]

I think that the demon would just. Just evacuate the body to never hear him talk again.

[Cristine]

It actually would probably work. Yeah.

[Em]

So Damada shows up, and as soon as he comes in, Nicola's possession is back and for the worse. And she is flinging around several men, can't hold her down. And he tells the demon, I think you're a demon. Not a good spirit. Just like the last one. You can't fool me. Nicola faints again. Very convenient. You'll notice quite a trend in these stories that as soon as someone. Someone calls him out on anything, he faints. She faints.

[Cristine]

Yeah, I'm sensing that pattern, which, again.

[Em]

As someone who is neither Catholic nor Protestant, this just feels like. Like a girl who was doing a silly little prank, and now she just keeps fainting because she just, like, got. I mean, doesn't know how to say.

[Cristine]

Anything, like, completely unironically. Side note that, like, at school, we used to try to faint in chapel to just get out of church.

[Em]

Beautiful.

[Cristine]

And you would, like, lock your knees. There's, like, a really specific way to do it and hold your breath. And people would just, like, faint to get. There were a couple who were really good at it. I always chickened out. I was too scared to hit my head.

[Em]

That was. Yeah, I feel like the. That's the equivalent of like. Or the religious equivalent of, like, spraining your ankle or trying to fake an injury so you don't have to play a sport.

[Cristine]

Yeah. So we did that after church. Like, we would try that in church. Then afterward, it's like, oh, I twisted.

[Em]

My ankle or from falling when I fainted.

[Cristine]

You remember how many times church just injured me? So, yeah.

[Em]

When I was rushing one of my Greek lives, there was someone in the middle of us, like, having, like, the big, like, initiation ceremony. Someone passed out. And because she was locking her knees, I didn't even. That was the day I learned that locking your knees can, like, lean. Could lead you to fainting. I had no idea.

[Cristine]

The day I learned. Remember it well. Under the stained glass windows of the.

[Em]

Crucifixion I was like, why the hell? I was like, how did she faint? And everyone knew. Apparently they must have also gone to Catholic school because they were like, oh, she probably locked her knees. And I'm like, you can do that and faint? That's crazy. Yeah.

[Cristine]

Maybe people just did it to get out of other things too. I imagine assembly, like initiation. Initiation. Wait, so do they think she did it on purpose?

[Em]

No, I just.

[Cristine]

Oh, just out of excitement. She like, had locked her knees or something, I think.

[Em]

I think maybe she was just like the way she was standing had nerves or something. I don't know. It was like one of those like ceremonies that's supposed to feel like are like a really big deal. So maybe she was like tensed up or something.

[Cristine]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not. Yeah.

[Em]

And I just remember going, oh, there she goes.

[Cristine]

She's out. See ya. Didn't pass the test.

[Em]

Didn't pass. Yeah. So, okay, so now Father Damada is involved in this, calls her a demon, and then she passes out. Conveniently, a few days later, she wakes up to what she says is holy water sprinkled all over her at her bed. How do you know? Know why?

[Cristine]

Because. Infested by a demon. I don't know.

[Em]

Maybe.

[Cristine]

Oh, well, holy water has like oil in it too.

[Em]

I literally wake up an oily sweat all the time.

[Cristine]

Well, good point. Touche. Cannot argue with that.

[Em]

Should I be like, I think there's a demon and this is all holy water.

[Cristine]

You should be like, this is just holy water. Don't worry about it.

[Em]

Well, it freaked her out enough. She signed herself with the cross a bunch of times. And then she took out a rosary and put it in the shape of a cross on her bed because she was so freaking out. And the cross lifted itself off the bed. Whoopsies. One source, the book, this story, this part of the story. I. It makes me almost not believe the whole book because I'm like, how did no other source talk about this? This is a weird part. You know what I mean? Yes, I do to take this with a grain of salt, but it was discussed, so I'm just going to share it. And if anyone has any information on this, let me know if, like, it's accurate or not. I got a feeling it's not, but it was too interesting to not share, so we can always banter.

[Cristine]

And if it's in a book, that feels pretty official.

[Em]

Like a 300 year old book.

[Cristine]

Yeah.

[Em]

Okay. So anyway, after this whole rosary lifts itself and she's covered in holy water slash sweat, she's out walking in the garden, and she sees a goblin. No other source anywhere.

[Cristine]

I'm so sorry.

[Em]

I looked up. There was, like, at least 20, 25 sources I used.

[Cristine]

I just was, like, shell shocked for a moment there.

[Em]

A goblin. And then the goblin looks at her, her evil smiles and says, look at me. Am I not a nice grandfather?

[Cristine]

Hello.

[Em]

Excuse moi. They're. We're French, so.

[Cristine]

Pardon?

[Em]

Yeah, so he grabs her and pulls her away, and she now goes missing for a big portion of the day. And the family finds her.

[Cristine]

Oh, I thought this was just like, oh, maybe she had a hazy vision of a goblin. She literally got abducted by a goblin.

[Em]

Straight up, saw a goblin who said, am I not a nice grandfather? Which, like, implies that now we're seeing the true colors of who is pretending to be your grandfather. She gets grabbed, pulled away, and her family finds her locked behind a garden wall. And no one talked about this. Am I okay? Did I make this up?

[Cristine]

I don't know. I think, like. Like probably not. You. If somebody put it In a book 300 years ago, I probably think it was somewhere. I wonder. Okay, two things. Either the author got, like, really over exuberant and made up some. Some facts, or something like this did happen. The family didn't want to talk about it because it was, like, so long ago that seeing a goblin was probably not something you're supposed to talk about.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Cristine]

And with the history of all the religious persecution, I don't know, maybe something like that.

[Em]

This is honestly my lesson to start reading more books. Because had I not read this book, I would have never covered the fucking goblin. So, I mean, in the goblin, you.

[Cristine]

Know, he would have come for you next.

[Em]

I know it. I know.

[Cristine]

That's how I'm gonna get Leona to read books, too.

[Em]

Oh, good, that'll work. Tell her the Count from Sesame street will get her.

[Cristine]

Oh, yeah. Well, you know, there probably are German books about goblins coming to get you if you don't read your books. So I probably is, you know, fulfill that prophecy.

[Em]

Well, so another time, Nicola is passed out. They're calling them swoons, by the way.

[Cristine]

So she's sort of like fainting.

[Em]

Like fainting, but in, like, in a Snow White, Sleeping Beauty way.

[Cristine]

Isn't she fully.

[Em]

Like, she's almost incapable of waking up. And she looks dead, let's put it that way.

[Cristine]

Oh, God. Oh, okay, so she's basically like, fully unconscious, you're saying?

[Em]

Yeah, but it sounds like she's able to kind of wake herself up, at least in the beginning. That she's like. Like she's kind of there, and she's in, like, a haze.

[Cristine]

I'm on a fainting couch, like, sure.

[Em]

Yes. So. And we're calling them swoons. I guess so.

[Cristine]

Got it, got it, got it.

[Em]

Another time, while she's in a swoon, her family heard her talking to someone, and she was refusing to give them an offering, and she was refusing multiple offerings. Like, they. Someone was obviously asking for, like, a part of her hair and then her clothing and then food. And when she came two later, she said that she saw a dark man appear and she believed it was the devil.

[Cristine]

Oh, my God.

[Em]

Who was talking to her? Another time, Nicola. And her husband. Yes. She's 15 and has a husband.

[Cristine]

Goblin.

[Em]

Well, okay, this story again, only in the book. How did this not get across? It feels like every source I use. No one was reading the book. Okay.

[Cristine]

But honestly, how many people probably have read this book? Probably barely any. Honestly. You may be. Or people usually just. I feel like copy with other online sources. Maybe you're the only one who really got to the bottom of it.

[Em]

You're right, actually.

[Cristine]

I actually am.

[Em]

I'm better than everyone. I'm glad you said it.

[Cristine]

So that's exactly what I said.

[Em]

Her and her husband are walking down the hall, and all of a sudden, they hear her little brother crying. And I guess her little brother is a baby. So she asks her husband to go check on. On her brother. But the husband, who has. Has seen quite a. Quite a creepy thing every now and then in the last few weeks, everything seems to just be weird in this house. He was like, I'm gonna go check on the brother. But as I walk down this hallway, I'm not taking my eyes off you. Cause I feel like something weird is gonna happen.

[Cristine]

Yeah, this feels off. Yeah.

[Em]

So he thought it could be a trick. He walks down the hall without taking his eyes off her. And then when he glances just to look at the baby to make sure that he's still in the cradle, he looks back at her, and she's gone. Just completely disappeared. And friends and family, neighbors are all looking for her. And they find her behind another locked door. Claims that a demon carried her through the chimney to get into this locked room.

[Cristine]

Okay, this is starting to feel like she's making this up.

[Em]

Just. Yeah.

[Cristine]

Starting to feel like. I know I was trying to give her, like, a little room to keep explaining herself, but the chimney. I'm starting to be like, okay, if.

[Em]

It'S real, it's amazing. I'll tell you I mean.

[Cristine]

Yeah, and also terrible.

[Em]

But, you know, know, another time when she was thirsty, her husband gave her some wine. And I think, just given everything going on.

[Cristine]

I'm thirsty. Some wine.

[Em]

Sounds familiar.

[Cristine]

Yeah, I bet she said, shut up somewhere, please.

[Em]

Her husband gave her some wine. He was freaked out about all this. Imagine having to sleep next to this person who's, like, haunted by a demon.

[Cristine]

Yeah. Who keeps vanishing and, like, speaking in, like, a goblin voice.

[Em]

Yeah. He slipped holy water into her wine just to, I think, try to cleanse her from the inside.

[Cristine]

I don't know, guys. Let's not slip anything into anyone's wine, ever.

[Em]

It's already shady whether it's for their.

[Cristine]

Good or not, you know, without their consent. Let's just not.

[Em]

Well, if the demons are true, when she drank the holy water, the demons freaked the fuck out because she started having convulsions. And then her face warped into a face that was no longer hers. Yuck.

[Cristine]

Well, that would be scary if she really didn't know he put that in there. And then she started reacting like that.

[Em]

Oh, my God. Yeah.

[Cristine]

Isn't that interesting? Like, maybe lends a little credence. Unless she saw him do it.

[Em]

She probably freaked out.

[Cristine]

Maybe. Maybe she's like, I'm thirsty. And he's like, how about some wine? And she's like, it's like 10:00am you know, maybe it was suspicious, but I feel like that's a pretty good test to see.

[Em]

It's also interesting to, like, test the digestive system. Like, once it passed, did her face go back to normal?

[Cristine]

Yeah, good point. Did it, like, absorb into the bloodstream, you know?

[Em]

Yeah, I don't know. You would think she would just throw it up if there was, like, a demon in there trying to.

[Cristine]

Holy water.

[Em]

Now, that's for the food scientists, I think. Yeah.

[Cristine]

Big pharma. You tell me.

[Em]

Next day, Father Damada, he's still. He's priest number two, but he's still in the picture. So far, he's been doing these exorcisms and these rituals with her. This is the first time, though, that he now takes her to do a public exorcism.

[Cristine]

What?

[Em]

And all of them after this are public?

[Cristine]

Stop.

[Em]

I think the reason was so that people could pray along. So that way there was more power, like the power of numbers. But I also think, given this story being used to, like, between Catholics and Protestants, I think it was to prove the power of Catholicism.

[Cristine]

Okay, well, now I'm seeing why this book could have finagled a few little details if it was trying to tell some history of Catholicism or something. Yes.

[Em]

These public exorcisms went on for two months. And by the end of the events, she had. I think she had an exorcism. It feels like every day. I don't know if that's true, but it felt.

[Cristine]

The amount of reading, like a sideshow. It feels like she's like doing like.

[Em]

Like she was.

[Cristine]

She.

[Em]

She was pretty much like a reality star of the time for them for the moment. Which. Like a religious celebrity. You don't get a lot of those. So.

[Cristine]

Are you sure? The Duggars.

[Em]

Oh, yeah, by the way, a lot of those. By the way, the bad, bad, bad one. His birthday.

[Cristine]

Gross.

[Em]

Just. Just a fun fact I never get to tell anyone.

[Cristine]

Tomorrow's my fifth grade social studies teacher's birthday.

[Em]

Tomorrow is gonna be a good day for your teacher. I don't know.

[Cristine]

I hope so.

[Em]

I was trying to think if I knew anything else. Nope.

[Cristine]

Nope.

[Em]

Okay. So we. It went on for two months. There were thousands by the end of witnesses who saw these exorcisms. One source.

[Cristine]

Thousands of exorcisms. I was like, no, but dear Christ. Okay, thousands people.

[Em]

I will say one of the sources said that she casually slipped in and out of repossessions like 50 times a day. So, like, does that mean 50 exorcisms?

[Cristine]

Me too, by the way.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Cristine]

I'm always slipping in and out of possession. That's why I sometimes go, I'm thirsty, and it's not me talking.

[Em]

That's when I go, I'm tired. No, I'm not. I'm tired. No, I'm not.

[Cristine]

Yeah, keep reading about Helen, this woman on ancestry.com that you've never met and have no relation to.

[Em]

Well, one source said that because many sources said that, like, thousands of people witnessed this. I mean, after two months, and she's like the most famous person. Like, what else is going on anyway? In the 1500s, you know, so thousands of people were going to these exorcisms, but one source set up to 150,000 people saw her.

[Cristine]

Well, because if you think, like, people would go to these executions as like a. Take the family, bring a. Bring a snack, you know, everyone gather around. So, like, it makes sense. At least this is a slightly more child friendly than executing a person, you know?

[Em]

Yeah, yeah.

[Cristine]

Like, if you're gonna play after G rated. Yeah, right. It's at least like slightly lower rated.

[Em]

Well, during the first public exorcism, during these rituals, the devil immediately decides to have an opinion about things. And he tells the priests, all your exorcisms will not drive me out of this creed. Creature rude. Then, as he says that, Nicola's body twists and contorts in ways that it should not, her bones crack as if all of them are breaking at the same time.

[Cristine]

Oh, my God. What?

[Em]

And 12 to 15 handlers were not strong enough to hold her down. Now, used to be six. Now it's up to 15.

[Cristine]

Oh, my God.

[Em]

Also, during this, I guess, just, like, prove its power, a big stone fell from the ceiling onto one of the women in the crowd. And the demon in her laughed and said it was his fault.

[Cristine]

That he can imagine was all an act. And then a boulder fell on a lady. And he'd be like, yep, that was me.

[Em]

She was, like, planned that. Perfect timing. Yeah. Yeah. I'm. I'm guaranteeing that's what actually happened.

[Cristine]

This sounds dramatic. Like, you could probably live a year off of the rumors and gossip of this day alone.

[Em]

You know that, like, memes. Obviously, memes didn't exist back then, but she would have been.

[Cristine]

There would have been, like, sort of a theory, right? Like, she.

[Em]

Yeah, yeah.

[Cristine]

There was, like, a meme for sure, about the older lady. You know, she became a meme in her.

[Em]

There was a catchphrase about her or something. It's like, oh, don't want to be crowd lady.

[Cristine]

You know, there's boulder on. There's a boulder coming. I don't know.

[Em]

I'm sure they would have boulder on aisle five. I don't know.

[Cristine]

Yeah, that's it. That's it.

[Em]

Well, so he's laughing and saying, oh, nobody's safe. That's. I just caused that. Like, it's not just. Nicola has to be worried. He then takes a moment to shout out the Protestants in the crowd. This is where we really get into that.

[Cristine]

Oh, I love this. Okay.

[Em]

The propaganda.

[Cristine]

So there's propaganda. Yeah, I love it. Demonic propaganda.

[Em]

He calls them his faithful servants.

[Cristine]

Oh, my God. That's hysterical. So, okay, okay, I'm getting it. I'm getting it now.

[Em]

And then Father Damada, I'm assuming this is still Father Zomata, he says, why did you want Nicola to do a pilgrimage and all these things for her grandpa? And why'd you want to do them in the name of God? Like, why would you want her to do these pious things instead of, like, something awful if you wanted to, like, prove your power over her and the devil? This is a quote, apparently, verbatim, after 300 years and now after 600 years.

[Cristine]

And true. Translated.

[Em]

Yeah. Yeah. And translated into English. The devil said I knew if I told her to kill her father and mother or to commit a. Or to commit a crime, she would not obey me and I should have been found out immediately. So he just wanted to see if he had any control of her at all.

[Cristine]

I guess he was trying to get her to like, travel around. But why? With the family, whatever.

[Em]

Yeah. I don't know.

[Cristine]

That makes no sense to me. Maybe I don't understand the higher wisdom of Beals above.

[Em]

Maybe I don't understand a 15 year old's trying to.

[Cristine]

Or the lower wisdom of a 15 year old.

[Em]

The priest then says, why would you ask her for offerings and if you didn't want to be found out? And because, remember he asked for her hair and shit. Another quote. The devil says, because I wish to make a compact with her and thereby gain power over her soul. If she had only yielded to me a little, I would have taken entire possession of her heart. But the wretched creature would not consent, for she knows I am a devil. And so that was day one. I don't know how poetic. I don't know how we awkwardly got out of that conversation. But eventually the demon went away for a second and I'm sure she.

[Cristine]

Intermission.

[Em]

Yeah, yeah. He was like, I'll be back.

[Cristine]

Everybody. Buy your. Avoid the boulder lady. She's. EMTs are handling that.

[Em]

Imagine her own fear of like, is it going to come after me next? You know.

[Cristine]

Oh, God. Yeah.

[Em]

So that was day one. The second day, there's a new exorcism. And each exorcism came with like a whole mass beforehand, like confession, communion, and.

[Cristine]

Like a new merch line every time.

[Em]

Every time. I was there for day two, like, I was there for day one. And it's like a boulder. As a boulder.

[Cristine]

I was there the day Boulder fell. Yeah.

[Em]

I got hit by a boulder during an exorcism and all I got was a stupid shirt and a head injury. So the next day, round two, the second exorcism, and Nicola is taken back to the church. The priests try out different holy relics on her during the ceremony. And I guess the demon seems kind of pissed off, but nothing really happens. But when they bring out the Eucharist and put it near Nicola, which is the Eucharist, is that a specific thing?

[Cristine]

So it's. It's. So it's the body and blood of Christ. So it's basically like the sacrament.

[Em]

Yeah, that's what they keep calling it. And that's the sacrament is that is the Whole.

[Cristine]

Yeah. And so the Eucharist is like, yeah, you can give the Eucharist the wafer.

[Em]

Yeah, perfect. So they put the sacrament near Nicola. As they're trying out different relics, they put the. The sacrament next to her. The demon freaks the out.

[Cristine]

Well, she's had wine spiked with holy water before, remember?

[Em]

Oh, yeah.

[Cristine]

So I know that shit's disgusting.

[Em]

It's like, if I were to put, like, tequila under your nose, and you're.

[Cristine]

Like, oh, exactly, yeah, forget it. The devil in me would be very upset.

[Em]

Well, so the demon freaks out, and everyone's like, oh, my gosh. This is the thing that, like, is really setting off the demon and it freaking out. It takes it out on Nicola. Her body swells in a very odd way.

[Cristine]

Ew.

[Em]

Her eyes and tongue start protruding. Her face totally distorts.

[Cristine]

Oh, my God. It sounds like an allergy.

[Em]

It. At one point, her tongue even goes black, then red, then spider spotted and is hanging out of her face. Like, she's like. She's just totally contorting and freaking out. The priest demands the demon's name, and he says, I am Beelzebub.

[Cristine]

That's a big one, too.

[Em]

And I'll tell you more about it next week.

[Cristine]

Oh, my God. Wait, I forgot it was a Walter. I actually was like, usually exorcism stories. I'm like, yeah, yeah, this one. I was getting real invested, man.

[Em]

Isn't it good?

[Cristine]

Real invested, man.

[Em]

I. I was.

[Cristine]

I am Beelzebub. What a fucking cliffhanger.

[Em]

So.

[Cristine]

And then that time when we're gonna record in five weeks and you're gonna be like, what do you remember? And I'm gonna have just, like, dark thoughts.

[Em]

Like, we certainly have to record sooner than that. Just for the sake of being like, I don't know. This girl keeps fainting and Beelzebubs here.

[Cristine]

I will need to know more pretty soon. So, yeah, I'll make sure of it. Good job. Good job.

[Em]

Thank you.

[Cristine]

So I just got an email from Rocket Money telling me that they had halved, like, in half my security alarm bill for the year. I don't know how they did that. I was like, how? And they just said they have magic sorcery. They didn't say that. But the idea is Rocket Money handled it for me, and I just saved. I mean, I've literally saved hundreds of dollars already. And it's.

[Em]

We both have.

[Cristine]

Yeah. It's amazing.

[Em]

Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions and monitors your spending and helps lower your bills so you can grow your saving savings. Like Cristine said, they have helped me somehow spend less money on subscriptions that I want and then get rid of subscriptions I don't want altogether. Then they even do it for you.

[Cristine]

Yeah, you could click a button and then they just, like, handle it. You can also easily create a personalized budget with custom categories so you can see, like, what you're spending. You know, you can see a pretty little colorful pie chart. That's one of my favorite parts.

[Em]

Love a pie chart.

[Cristine]

Yeah. And they have a goals feature, so you can save money for, you know, whatever you might be thinking of getting. Like a. I don't know, a blacksmith shop, a. Yeah.

[Em]

If you have adhd and.

[Cristine]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Any fixation.

[Em]

Rocket Money has over 5 million users and has saved a total of $500 million in canceled subscriptions, saving members up to $740 a year when using all the app's premium features.

[Cristine]

Cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money. Go to RocketMoney.com Drink today. That's RocketMoney.com Drink RocketMoney.com Drink I am currently recording here in this portion of my home, which is shockingly close to the litter box. And yet I can drink my water, I can drink my coffee. I never have that litter box smell anymore, thanks to Pretty Litter.

[Em]

Pretty litter, I gotta say, has also saved me going to Christine's house because she's one of the only houses that has pets, and I've never once smelled a smell.

[Cristine]

Pretty Litter also gives us peace of mind because it changes color to indicate early signs of potential illnesses in our cat. So Blaze and I are like, anybody have a uti? No. Oh, good. It also can indicate early signs of kidney issues and other things that cats are naturally, you know, prone to getting. So that's great. And it also ships free to the door. So I. I always say, like, I don't have to lug them, but that was actually Blaze's job. But I think he's very thankful he doesn't have to lug them from the store.

[Em]

Never had a cat, but I could tell you the thing I would hate the most was the worst.

[Cristine]

Besides the smell. Yeah.

[Em]

Besides, it looked awful. Pretty Litter helps keep our house, well, Christine's house, smelling fresh and clean. Try it and you'll love it. Go to prettylitter.com ATWD to save 20 on your first order. And get a free cat toy.

[Cristine]

That's prettylitter.com ATWD for 20 off your first order and a free cat toy. Terms and conditions apply. C site for details. All right, I have a new one for you today. This is one I hadn't actually heard of until I discovered a subreddit where people discussed, like lesser known cases. I wanted to just do a little more, I don't know, random, random stories, I guess, just like digging through ones that aren't as popular, aren't as famous, you know?

[Em]

Sure.

[Cristine]

And I guess a lot of people will know if you were at least around in the Idaho area in 2012. But for me, I had not heard of it. And that is the story of DeOrr Kunz Jr. Oh, okay. And I want to specify his name is spelled D E O R R and he's named after his dad, whose, by the way, first name is even wilder than his middle name. Vernal. Vernal Dior Kunz is his name.

[Em]

He is the only person with that name for sure.

[Cristine]

Isn't that remarkable? Unless it's like they pass it down from every family member, but I don't think so.

[Em]

But at least you know, they're all related, you know?

[Cristine]

Yeah, that's true too. That's true too. Yeah. So unfortunately, today's story is not only unsolved, it's also about a child. Child. Right. So, yeah, it's double whammy. But you know, it's always one I like to share when there's a chance that somebody might be able to contribute something, you know, so we'll get to that at the end. But. So let's go to Idaho Falls, Idaho, a pretty small town. This is where Deor Hunt's Jr. Was born on December 30, 2012. His parents were Jessica Mitchell and Vernal, as I told you, Deor Hugh Kuntz and the dad, Vernal actually went by Dior most of the time. I can't imagine why with a name.

[Em]

Like Vernal, either of them is a. It's a. They're still going to be the only one in the bar. Right.

[Cristine]

They're both creative. Definitely. Or unique. But so to avoid confusion, we're just going to say Dior is the boy and Vernal is the dad.

[Em]

Sure.

[Cristine]

So Jessica and Vernal had been high school sweetheart and after high school they split and they both got married to other people. Jessica got married, had two children and then got divorced. And years later they bump into each other. They're both divorced and guess what? There's sparks.

[Em]

Yay.

[Cristine]

I know. And they rekindle their romance. Vernal proposes and pretty soon, Jessica becomes pregnant. And at first she's a little freaked out because she already has two kids. She felt like the relationship was moving really fast. Fast. But kind of once they both agreed they were happy about it, the shock kind of wore off and she and Vernal got really excited about it. So Dior was born at the end of 2012. And it seemed like this almost like too perfect story. You know, they're high school sweethearts who. It could be like a Today show, like Lifetime movie. Like a Lifetime thing. Like, yeah, they. They separated after high school and then found each other again. And then, you know, she took his name. Like, I don't know. It just feels very. On the surface, it all feels very beautiful.

[Em]

It feels very full house. Because that's what happened in the reunion. I think that DJ and Steve got back together.

[Cristine]

See, I know about Martin Luther, you know about the.

[Em]

In a game of trivia, we are undefeated.

[Cristine]

You know what, though? That's so true. It feels like a broad array of topics. Now, don't get me started on Calvinism. Just kidding.

[Em]

I would love to, actually, because there's someone in the Duggars who is. I would love to.

[Cristine]

What? Okay, we'll get to that. Man, we're gonna need a lot of yappy hours today. Okay, so they named Dior after his father, but they often called him by his nickname, which is little man, which I just thought was very cute. Precious. Jessica began working as a cna, a certified nursing assistant. And she took a job as an in home caregiver for her own grandfather, Bo Walton. His name is Robert Bob Walton. Now, Bob was in his 70s, and he had pretty significant health issues. He needed to be on oxygen at all times. And he to. To Dior, was the great grandfather. So. Okay, to give you an idea, it's. It's Dior's mom's Grandpa.

[Em]

Okay.

[Cristine]

So July 9th, Jessica Vernal and Dior set out with great grandpa Bob on a camp camping trip. And growing up, Jessica loved to go with her grandpa Bob on camping trips. And because he's getting older, he has these health issues. She realizes, you know, we don't have that many years left. We should do this while we can, especially now that we have our little boy with us. At the time, Dior is 2, and she wants to make this kind of a family affair, a family tradition. You know what I mean? So it's July 9th, they all go on their camping trip, but grandpa Bob has brought a friend along.

[Em]

Oh.

[Cristine]

The friend is named Isaac Reinwand. And Bob sometimes pays this guy to do yard work. That's how they met. But he's decades younger than Bob and Bob would. Don't you love to hear this? When someone says, I'm bringing an additional guest that we haven't accounted for, by the way, he's a little awkward and weird.

[Em]

Oh my God. Also like they.

[Cristine]

To be going with a two year old child and your, and your partner and you're just trying to like have a family getaway. And then your grandpa's like, I brought a really weird guy along. It's like, come on.

[Em]

And also like our relationship is pretty disconnected. Like he's. Would you say that they're just like, yeah, he's a gardener or something?

[Cristine]

Yeah, he basically is a friend, but like, or an acquaintance, but it's basically a guy that Bob sometimes hires to. Bless you, Gio. It's basically a guy that Bob sometimes hires to do yard work for him and like other odd jobs.

[Em]

It's not even like, it's like, hey, he's my brother. He's kind of weird.

[Cristine]

Totally. Totally. It's not somebody close that like warrants an automatic invite. Like this feels like a very intentional bring them along. I don't know why.

[Em]

In like at the very least in the family group chat, be like, I, I got, I, I got trapped and I felt obligated to say something. I'm so sorry. This is going to be so weird for all of us. Don't, don't be like, it'll be weird for you.

[Cristine]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's by the way, he's really weird. Anyway, see you tomorrow. It's like, what? Yeah. So they were like, okay. And can you elaborate? And Bob said, well listen, he's a really good guy and he's a, he wants. He's what? I want to bring him along. So they were like, okay. I mean, honestly, they weren't that upset about it because I think they were mostly assuming like Bob would be fishing with his friend and like we'll just have our own little camping trip.

[Em]

And also if you bring the weird person and you know he's in advance, it's your job to keep him occupied.

[Cristine]

Exactly. And they had separate vehicles, so it's not like they needed to be in like close quarters. Sure. You know. And so Vernal later said that when people. This is the dad, Dior's dad. Vernal later said, when people learn that a friend is weird, he generally assumes. Or people. When people warn him that a friend is weird, he generally assumes like maybe they're annoying or, like, whatever. But he said, like, he and Jessica weren't really worried. They just thought, like, okay, some. Some weird friend of grandpa's is coming. Coming. And even Isaac apparently thought it was a little weird that he had been invited on a family camp out. Oh, right.

[Em]

I definitely thought that he, like, pushed to, like, join or something.

[Cristine]

Strange, right? Like, I was like, that's a weird little, like, tidbit that even he felt strange about the invite.

[Em]

Interesting.

[Cristine]

And so they arrived to the Timber Creek Campground in Salmon Challis National Forest later that evening. It was after dark, so they pretty much went straight to bed. The forest itself spans 4.3 million acres in Idaho, and it contains 2.3 million acres of the Frank. Okay, now this is the name that I had to Google, and I went on a whole nother rabbit hole about this. This. Apparently, the largest uninterrupted wilderness area in the continental United States is here. It's called the Frank Church river of the Frank Church river of no Return Wilderness Area.

[Em]

Wow. Okay. Like, who approved that name? So there was a meeting at some point.

[Cristine]

Would you like to know? Yeah. Okay. So Frank Church was a senator, and he did a lot for. For wilderness and wildlife in the Idaho area. And so that is why they named it after him when he passed. But the no Return. The river of no Return. I'm not entirely sure what that's all about. Yeah, I can't really explain that, but it's named after this guy, Frank Church, you know, so I don't know. He. He did a lot for the. For the trees. He spoke. For the trees.

[Em]

Should just call that Lorax Land or something. Yeah, I feel like.

[Cristine]

I think it's called, like, river no Return because it's just so expansive, maybe that it. That it, you know, contains the. And it. Because it contains the largest uninterrupted wilderness, it's kind of like. Yeah, that makes sense out there, you know, without interference.

[Em]

I do think if you're gonna name something, a long name, you need to really be intentional about the acronym, that it's.

[Cristine]

Yeah, people are gonna. Oh, good point.

[Em]

Like, at least let it be called, like, something river of no Return. See, that doesn't even give you which rnr. Like. Like, it's gotta be called. It's not gonna be called that. Nobody's gonna call the whole thing the.

[Cristine]

Frank Church river of no Return Wilderness Area. It's really a mouth, isn't it?

[Em]

Wow.

[Cristine]

And then I was like, is his name Church River? No. Is it a river itself? Like, what Is happening. Is it a church? Like, you know, it's just. There's a lot of words in there that kind of make it confusing. But. But anyway, Frank. Frank Church is the guy and.

[Em]

Gotcha.

[Cristine]

It's called the river of no Return Wilderness area. I wonder if river of no Return could have been maybe an original name. You know what I mean? But I'm not sure.

[Em]

In which case I just want to be like Frank. Why are we renaming things?

[Cristine]

Well, he's dead. He. They named it after him.

[Em]

Oh, okay.

[Cristine]

So I said he was a senator who like helped in state all this wild. These wilderness areas. So they named it after him when he died.

[Em]

I promise you, I could be on a real rabbit hole with this. Try to keep it together. But I would love to rename it with you. I. We. I won't. I'm just going to sit here and look pretty.

[Cristine]

Okay, here we go. The name of the. Oh, sorry, not. Here we go to the story. Here we go. To continue my quest to figure out. I figured it out.

[Em]

You're on the rabbit hole. Okay, great.

[Cristine]

The name of this wilderness. Okay, this is from usda.gov the name of this wilderness has two roots. The main salmon river was called the river of no Return back in the early days when boats could navigate down the river but could not get back up through the fast water. Oh, and it's a salmon. They swim upstream, remember? Okay, I get it. River of no Return. Okay, so it's less ominous than it sounds. It's just you can't turn your boat around. I go the other way. Yeah. And numerous rapids. The romantic name really. I find it actually really threatening. Okay, sure. The romantic name lives on today. So it's basically. That was the name, but now they attached Frank Church's name to. To. To this because he was such an instrumental part of. Of the wildlife of Idaho, I guess.

[Em]

Okay, great. Love it. Good for him.

[Cristine]

Good for him. Good for them. Okay, here we go. This is where we are. They go to, of all places, the Frank Church river of no Return Wilderness area.

[Em]

Of course.

[Cristine]

And they're specifically in the Timber Creek Campground, which is part of the Salmon Challis National Forest. And while they are there, they approach, they arrive, it's dark. They go straight to bed. And the closest town has a population of about 105. So it's like really remote. And that was in 2012. So very, very, very small town. And it's over 100 miles northwest of Idaho Falls. So just under two hours by car. So basically the nearest town is just under two hours from where they live, you know they're out there. The final seven miles to Timber Creek is an unpaved, extremely rugged road. Drivers have to go very slow, especially in the dark, to avoid boulders. That boulder. Speaking of boulders that are embedded in the ground.

[Em]

Oh, my God.

[Cristine]

Hopefully not in a person who witnessed an exorcism hundreds of years ago. The Timber Creek campground was a large opening at the end of the road. Basically a field surrounded by trees. It's almost like a dead end. Like open space.

[Em]

Sure.

[Cristine]

And it has a picnic table and a fire pit. And about 50ft from the campsite, there is a small stream where campers can go fishing. And grandpa Bob loved to go fishing. So Isaac pitched a tent. Bob slept in a trailer. Vernal, Jessica slept with Dior in the back of their vehicle. The next morning, Jessica realized she started her period. Rough timing.

[Em]

Whoops.

[Cristine]

So she needs to go back to the town. Lyodor with Vernal and Dior to buy menstrual products.

[Em]

Now is that. Is this the town that's two hours away?

[Cristine]

No, I'm sorry. Their own town is two hours away. The nearest town just has a town. It's a town of 105 people. People. It's about.

[Em]

Oh, gotcha.

[Cristine]

It's called Leodore. So Leodore or leader, I'm not sure. So they go to Leodore to buy tampons. And as they're on the way, Vernal decides actually, wait, no, I need to get diesel first for the truck. Which I'm like, that feels like maybe the priority should be the other way around. Unless you're like really classic, man. But yeah, I felt weird. So essentially, Vernal decides they want to get diesel first. So they. He goes on a hunt. It's. But it's not like he knows where it is. So he goes on a hunt for diesel. And he's driving around this tiny town searching for a gas station that has diesel. Apparently Lyodor is like a one road town. So when he doesn't see any options, he kind of drives out of the road a bit to see if there are other gas stations nearby. Then he turns back. Jessica says they searched for an hour before finally finding a diesel stop. Now, I want to specify just as a side note here that it's been later. I believe it was on crime junkie that I heard them explain that one source said there's no way you can get lost in this town. It's a one road town. You're not sure you would Find what you're looking for pretty quickly. That's just a side note that I had heard from. From a source. So very much hearsay, but I just want to point it out.

[Em]

Okay.

[Cristine]

They chatted with the gas attendant. This is. This is how the story goes. They chatted with the gas attendant who noticed Dior in the truck and said he really liked kids and, you know, played with him, play peekaboo with him or whatever, while Vernal gassed up the truck. So later, finally, they're back at the stage stop, which is the name of this little store to get tampons. Jessica notices that there's this kind of older guy, sort of leering at Dior the baby, as they're shopping. Yeah. And she says he just stared so long that she got really uncomfortable and he gave her the creeps. So as she left the store, she kind of made note of this black jeep that was parked outside, and she just assumed that belonged to him. She loaded Dior into the truck with Vernal, and they made it back to the campground at around 1pm Isaac and Bob had been busy fishing, and they had quite a catch to show off. So Jessica and Vernal followed Isaac to the creek and said, here, why don't you show us where the best fishing spot is? Deorr was going to go with his parents and Isaac, but he seemed indecisive. And Bob was finished fishing and just sitting in a chair with his oxygen tank. And Jessica said, like, hey, if you want to come, come with us, you can. Otherwise, you can stay here with grandpa Bob. And apparently Dior had candy at the campsite. So he said, I think I prefer candy to fishing.

[Em]

I think I know my priorities here.

[Cristine]

I think I have them straight. And he decided to stay with great grandpa Bob. So he turned back, and Jessica watched him make his way back to grandpa Bob. And she went off with Vernal and Isaac to go look at the fish fishing spot. So 15 to 20 minutes later, Vernal walks back to the campsite. He wants to go get Dior and bring him to the stream because there are these little minnows in the stream, and he wants to show Dior the minnows. But as he's looking around, he sees Dior's toys. But Dior is not there. Vernal asks Bob where Dior is, and Bob seems confused. And he says Dior was playing right over there behind my chair. And every couple of minutes, I would just glance over and check on him. I have no idea how he could have disappeared. So suddenly.

[Em]

Oh, it all takes is like one second literally.

[Cristine]

And this is nightmare fuel. Right. So this is a wide open space. Dior was wearing a pair of loose oversized boots. So they're thinking, okay, he couldn't have gotten that far. He's only two years old. So they start looking immediately. They're becoming increasingly panicked of course. Jessica hears Vernal scream like shouting. So she rushes back and joins in the search. And Isaac eventually notices like okay, there's a commotion. So he comes back from fishing and says what's going on? And Bob says, oh, we can't find Dior. He disappeared. And so now Isaac is like, wait, what? He was just here a minute ago. Everyone's just completely perplexed and confused.

[Em]

And the guilt that he probably feels too of like I just, I was.

[Cristine]

Supposed to have eyes on him. Yeah, exactly. And he has oxygen. So like physically it's really hard for him to like even be in to catch him. Right. If he goes off running. Exactly. So of course the campsite is too remote for a cell phone Signal back in 2012. So Vernal gets in the truck and he drives down the road until he finds enough Service to call 91 1. Jessica manages to get a signal at the campsite and calls her mom. And her mom's name is Trina and this is Bob's daughter. So basically it goes Jessica, Trina, Bob, right as the, as the line. So Trina says hang up, call 91 1. And Jessica does just before 2:30pm and she tells the operator that her 2 year old son has been missing for about an hour. So search and rescue teams arrive on site and at first they're kind, their hopes are pretty high because if a, if a kid goes missing from a campsite, they're usually recovered pretty quickly. But as they're looking around, they don't find any sign of this kid. So they do this, they pull off this drastic search effort. It goes on for two days with nearly 200 people scouring the area on foot, ATV, horseback, helicopter. Oh my God, they're looking everywhere. And Jessica wondered, you know, maybe he had toddled over to the water and drowned. You know, that's definitely a very viable possibility. But a thorough search by divers confirmed that DeOrr didn't seem to be in the water anyway. And so they felt relief about that. But then, you know, obviously they still don't have an answer. So they start thinking, could a wild animal have taken him? And it seems possible. There are bears and some wolves. But it just didn't quite Add up, like, there would have been sounds, There would have been blood. There would have been a boot or piece of clothing, anything like that. And besides, wolves are not known to attack people in this area. So searchers are looking just in case. They search for animal tracks, any disturbed soil, any sign of like, of course, a struggle or blood, anything like that. They even checked the bear dens that they knew of. And they found. Oh, my God, nothing.

[Em]

Wow. He just vanished.

[Cristine]

Yes. So with other possibilities ruled out, investigators began considering that maybe Dior had been abducted. And then the FBI got involved. So now this is because becoming really big and really scary. In Idaho Falls, Jessica and Vernal did an interview for the news. Appealing to anyone with any information to help them find their son. Vernal looks at the camera, he's crying, and he says, buddy will find you. Daddy will find you. And they keep calling him little man, which makes it just so much more. Like when they talk to him, they say, like, we'll find you, little man. And it's like. It's just really hard to watch. So the community rallied behind the parents. You know, there are these vigils. They're putting them on, on Bill. And leads quickly start rolling in. One was from a Walmart employee who reported a man shopping with a little boy who looked just like Dior. And of course, they check, and this is a false lead. There is no connection. It did look like him, but it's not the right. It's not the same kid. Then a woman hiking with two toddler boys reports being stalked by a man driving a black Jeep.

[Em]

Oh, shit. Okay.

[Cristine]

And so, of course that, like, you know, pings them a little bit. And they start looking into that and they suspect maybe this is the same man Jessica encountered at the stage stop that she, you know, about who was eyeing the kid. But turns out the shop owner knows the guy very well who owned the Jeep. Police confirmed he was not involved. There was no way he could have been involved.

[Em]

I so quickly was like, that's.

[Cristine]

I know, because it's like you find these, but then you think also, it's a really small town. So it's like, maybe there's just this creepy dude wandering around. He's probably. I don't doubt that he's a creep if he's making all these parents uncomfortable, right? But maybe that's it, you know? And it just didn't have anything to do with the actual crime or disappearance. So only one road leave leads to the Timber Creek campground. And I know I said it earlier, but it's very rugged. And investigators believe that a car couldn't really have passed through there without being heard by somebody. Somebody. It's just very off road. You have to have the right vehicle, that kind of thing. So then they think, hang on, maybe someone at the campsite was involved, right? Like go straight to the source. And now they're thinking, well, Isaac seems to be the odd one out of the family. You know, he's sort of like fifth wheel.

[Em]

Literally called weird.

[Cristine]

Literally called weird by the grandpa. So they did a background check on him and he had a criminal history history. And his criminal history included an assault and battery charge. So now they're thinking, well, this guy has a past of violence. You know, this is a red flag. And as this is information is coming out, of course the public picks up on this. And of course there. Now there's this guy who's not in the family who got take. And so it seems like the perfect fit, right? Like this beautiful family goes on a trip and they bring this weird guy and now he abducts the child. And so basically public opinion turns against Isaac pretty immediately. Immediately. But in the original stories, Jessica, Bob and Vernal all agreed, like their storylines all matched up, that Isaac was fishing at the stream when Dior disappeared because they went to go meet up with him. And therefore it didn't make sense that he could have been involved.

[Em]

Sure.

[Cristine]

For what it's worth, Isaac never changed his story. And three other adults who said he was down at the river fishing. He said he was at the river fishing. It was hard to believe that he. That they would have all lied on his behalf for some strange reason. And so they pretty much couldn't pin him to anything. But here's what's weird. Although Isaac's story never wavered, the same could not be said for Jessica and Vernal, the parents of Dior.

[Em]

Okay.

[Cristine]

Their stories were all over the place and were completely inconsistent over and over, over again to the point that investigators eyebrows had been raised pretty immediately. One major discrepancy in the story was revealed when the gas station attendant refuted the story that Dior's dad Vernal had told the police. And I don't know if you remember, but the story was that he was pumping the car with diesel and the attendant was like really loved kids and was like playing peekaboo waving. Yeah, exactly. So what investigators did this is just the shit I love. They go back to the gas station and they find the attendant and they find the attendant who had been working on that car. And they talk to him, and they say, do you remember this guy? And he says, yep. He says, do you remember playing with Deor? And he goes, excuse me? And he's like, do you remember playing with the kid? And he goes, no. And he says, do you remember seeing a car seat? And he says, yeah, I mean, I.

[Em]

Saw a car seat, but there was no kid.

[Cristine]

But no kid.

[Em]

So they dumped their own kid somewhere.

[Cristine]

Well, we don't know. We don't know. This is the first discrepancy, okay, that he. The kid seemingly wasn't there, or at least the stories don't line up. He claimed he never even interacted with or saw the child. Jessica and Vernal also told opposing stories. Stories about when they were buying tampons at the general store because Jessica said she took Dior into the general store where that strange man was staring at her. But meanwhile, Vernal said, oh, he stayed outside with me while Jessica shopped. And these are like simultaneous interviews happening, you know, so they're giving not different time. It's not at different times, simultaneously giving completely different accounts of what happened.

[Em]

Gotcha.

[Cristine]

So huge red flag. I mean, you know, they give them a little bit of benefit out of, like, well, maybe they're in shock, you know, or whatever, but they're just raising a lot of eyebrows. In fact, there were more fanciful tales that Vernal kind of wove that were proven to be untrue. For example, he said that Dior loved trucks, and he was so excited when they got to the store. And there was a Budweiser delivery truck parked up front. Vernal said the Budweiser delivery driver was so excited to see Dior and how excited he was about trucks, and he even let Dior sit in the. The truck. And when investigators knock, knock, tracked down the delivery driver who was there that day, he said, that never happened. I never interacted with a man and his son. In fact, it would have been completely against policy. I would never put a child in my truck. And what's more is I don't park in front of the store. I park behind it. There's no way I would have run into customers in the front of the store.

[Em]

Right.

[Cristine]

But the conflicting accounts don't stop there, because Jessica actually originally told police that Isaac, the weird guy on the trip, had banged on the windows of the car that morning and woken them up by shouting, wakey, wakey, eggs and bakey.

[Em]

And on my own damn trip, and you're the guest, and you're gonna wake me up on My trip home.

[Cristine]

Exactly. And she said it was about 8, 8:30 in the morning. So she says, like, we all kind of stumble out, and he's cooking breakfast. And she was all pissed off. Right. But later, investigators asked Jessica, so, you know, we're recovering that day, who made breakfast that day? She said, I did. And then they go cut to Vernal, who made breakfast that day? Without hesitation, he says, I did. So it's like, wait a minute.

[Em]

Could all of them have been.

[Cristine]

Make breakfast? Like you said, he made breakfast and then banged on your car window. Wakey, wakey, Exit, bakey.

[Em]

Did you.

[Cristine]

And I watched the interview where she said she made breakfast. She said, we had eggs, we had bacon and some toast. And they said, who made it? And she said, oh, I did. And it's like, well, that's weird because you said he made you all breakfast and then woke you up. But all that aside, it becomes more damning because according to some other sources, Isaac slept until nearly noon and said the whole family was already up when he got up out of his tent.

[Em]

Oh, okay.

[Cristine]

So it's like somebody's.

[Em]

Something's going on. Yeah.

[Cristine]

Telling the truth, Investigators considered that the trauma of losing your child, the shock of this all might explain, like, why these memories are conflicting, like, who woke up first, who made breakfast. Yes. Those could be simple confusions. Or like you said, maybe they both contributed, and so they misspoke. But the more elaborate stories, like the gas station attendant, the delivery driver. Driver, it just was a little more difficult to explain, like, why somebody would lie about that. And my. I mean, my thinking is he used partial truths.

[Em]

Right.

[Cristine]

Like, he saw a Budweiser truck. And to make it sound believable, his story, he was like, oh, we saw the Budweiser truck. And, you know, Dior loves trucks. He, like, got to. And then I bet you the police asked, did you interact with the truck driver? Oh, sure. You know, she saw me. Like, I bet you he's just telling these truths, not thinking they're literally gonna find the truck driver who delivered Budweiser that morning. You know what I mean?

[Em]

Yeah. I think they underestimate only 100 people. They could have interviewed everyone that day.

[Cristine]

So it's sort of like anybody you kind of point to. Like, it's pretty easy to clear them. And it's very weird that you're lying about it like that. You're making up stories whether or not you did anything nefarious. It's very strange that you're making up, like, oh, he. He, like, held my son and put him in the truck. And the guy's like, what the fuck? No. Like, I would never do that. You know, it's just weird stories continue to diverge the more that Jessica Vernal. And we haven't quite heard from great Grandpa Bob yet either, as far as.

[Em]

Right. He's just sitting there with his oxygen.

[Cristine]

Oxygen going, huh. You know.

[Em]

Weirdly, he was like, I. I just lost the kid. And I thought it couldn't get worse. And now everyone's a suspect. Yeah.

[Cristine]

Now we're all in the middle of it. We're in the thick of it. So speaking of Bob.

[Em]

Bob.

[Cristine]

Bob said to police, no one asked him to watch Dior.

[Em]

Oh.

[Cristine]

He said Jessica never insisted. And she didn't say it like, oh, she's lying. He said, like, they said, do you remember Jessica, your granddaughter, asking you to watch Dior? And there's this, like, really long pause where he's, like, really thinking. And he goes, I don't. So really, he does not remember anybody asking him to watch Dior. Dior. While the group went to the creek with Isaac. In the end, the entire day has become this sort of, like, mismatched timelines. Everything's off. If you move one piece, the whole thing falls apart. Somebody's lying. It's hard to tell who. You know, it's just. It's a very convoluted. The only person seriously, who's remained consistent is Isaac. And he told reporters that federal and local investigators requested he not share any more information with the media because it's still an active investigation.

[Em]

Sure.

[Cristine]

But, by the way, later, Jessica claimed that she suspected Isaac. Suddenly, like, in a later interview, she said. And I don't understand this exactly, but she said that she saw him carrying a shovel with blonde hairs that belonged to her son on the end of the shovel. And it feels like you just didn't mention that, like, sooner or if it just happened. You know, why? Like, what can we do? And so when. I guess when they asked, like, can we get access to this or anything, All. All it says is the wind blew them away. I don't know if she claimed the wind blew them away.

[Em]

I don't know if, like, interesting.

[Cristine]

There's. If I don't know quite what happened there, except that. Jess, it's just worth noting that even though Jessica originally said, we followed Isaac to the river and left Dior with Grandpa, now she's suddenly like, oh, he had a shovel with my son's hair.

[Em]

On it, it's just this poor Isaac guy. He was already, like, like, picked and primed to be the weird guy who's. And he's just like, I literally didn't do anything.

[Cristine]

That's kind of why I called him the weird guy. Because I'm like, he just gets such a. Like, that's what becomes his whole Persona in the media, etc, you know, like, any.

[Em]

Weird already.

[Cristine]

Yeah, exactly.

[Em]

About even going, he was like, I shouldn't have gone. And now.

[Cristine]

Exactly. He obviously shouldn't have.

[Em]

And then he had to hear everyone on earth call him weird. And he's like, I am the least fucking weird person here.

[Cristine]

He did call him weird. And it's like, hang on, he's the only one telling the truth here, right? Like, I don't know. Or at least sticking to his story. Now this is where things get like, really sketchy and like, we start to unravel some stuff. Because Frank Vilt was a retired U.S. marshal and he had extensive missing persons experience. Now, he heard about this little boy because of course this was pretty sensational. And he offered to work for the family as a private investigator and help them get to the bottom of it. But shortly after beginning working on the case, he abruptly removed himself from the case, submitting a resignation letter.

[Em]

Oh, and if.

[Cristine]

To the family. And at first that resignation letter was not public, but it was later made public by him. And this is what the letter said. Here's an excerpt. In my professional opinion, both of you lied and misrepresented true facts that could solve the mystery of your missing son. I believe that the searches will all be non productive. The searches are only used by you to cover a possible crime that one or both of you may have committed. And this is from a retired U.S. marshal who offered to do pro bono work for them.

[Em]

Yeah, that's. What did he discover?

[Cristine]

Talk about damning, right?

[Em]

Which, like, don't. I don't know if you have to rescind yourself. I don't know all the rules. But like isn't like. Well, once you find something that makes.

[Cristine]

Well, he's not a lawyer. He was just. He was just an investigator. He wanted to do private investigating for them. So he offered to like, help them get to the bottom of the case. Interesting. And was like, no, apparently I. I don't know the details, but I do know that part of the letter also said, you wouldn't let me make this case. He was willing to put money out there for answers, and they refused to let that go national, is what he says. They refused to post a public reward and spread word.

[Em]

He said, that's not good.

[Cristine]

Yeah. He said in the letter basically that this is his accusation, but he basically said, I offered to put my own money up. I offered to spread this nationwide, internationally. And you resisted and, you know, said no. And I can't imagine why you would have done that unless you are covering for a crime.

[Em]

Interesting.

[Cristine]

Okay, so that was the letter that came out. And of course, that was like its own whole, you know, situation. Right. Like, that's really alarming. And then a second private investigator working with the family was fired because he also spoke out about being suspicious of the parents. And he was actually sued. Vernal sued him for slander, and the case was dropped. But basically, like, it's just kind of red flags everywhere.

[Em]

Yeah. Is there anyone who does believe them?

[Cristine]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, Especially because it's unsolved. You know, there's really no evidence pointing at the parents. Right. Or anyone specifically. Specifically, I can tell you my theory at the end, but I. I'm curious to hear what you think, but. In 2016, the Lemhi county sheriff officially named Jessica and Vernal suspects in the disappearance of their son because they felt they had enough on them.

[Em]

Dang.

[Cristine]

Then, of course, the public quickly turned on them. Their entire websites, like, theorizing what they did to their son. But I want to be clear. Again, like, there is no physical evidence to substantiate any of this. You know, there's weird timelines, there's hypotheticals, and there are theories, but there's really no physical evidence that we have to back any of this up.

[Em]

Except for maybe blonde hairs on a shovel.

[Cristine]

I know, right? Except that blew away in the wind. Right. So Jessica and Vernal ultimately broke up. And whether that was due to the stress of the case or any other reason, we don't know. But they did start to get a little dicey with each other, as in start to kind of shift some blame on the other partner. You know, I mean, I imagine after a divorce and this is still active in your sphere, like, I imagine you'd probably start to sour on the other.

[Em]

Person, but which is weird because I feel like if. If they were both innocent, they would both at least still stand united on that. Like, you don't want to.

[Cristine]

Isn't that interesting, Em? Is that interesting?

[Em]

I guess, yeah.

[Cristine]

Although I also feel like, what if you felt guilty and like you didn't want to be? You were like, I want. If I point the finger first, like, then maybe.

[Em]

Maybe they both didn't believe each other, because I would think they would have come up with an alibi together. If they were, maybe they both suspected each other instead of something happening with both of them.

[Cristine]

Maybe. Yeah, maybe. Maybe like they both suspected each other. Well, here's what I'll, like, quote them directly. So Jessica said in an interview, quote, vernal's the type of person that will tell you what you want to hear. I don't 100% know if he's capable or incapable of. Of hurting my child or not. And if they can prove that Vernal had something to do with it, I'll believe it. That's pretty. That's pretty bold to say about the father of your child. Seriously, like, if I. My parents went through some very bitter divorces. I don't think. Think that they would. Well, I guess unless they really believed it, I don't think they would say.

[Em]

Yeah, I think they didn't even. They weren't even a united front on it from the beginning, I think.

[Cristine]

Seems like it. Because they told stories, conflicting stories, immediately.

[Em]

Yeah. I feel like if something happened and both of them witnessed it, they would be like, what's our story? Vs them already getting caught in the crosshairs of that.

[Cristine]

Yeah. And then it's odd.

[Em]

And then for someone to immediately go, oh, yeah, I would believe it. It's like, well, if you were there with him the whole time, then you would have believed that he did, you.

[Cristine]

Know, and she's saying it vaguely enough by saying, like, I don't know if he could or could not hurt my child, but I wouldn't believe it. Then it's like, well, then you've. You're saying he probably could. You know what I mean? Anyway, it just feels like a little bit of a talk around. One investigator on the case believes Dior may have died in an accident. And that's kind of, to me, the most likely theory, you know, is that this is all speculation. Nobody has been charged or, you know, put on trial for this. I just want to say from my own dumb little brain that I was thinking about it, and my feeling on it is like, maybe Jessica. Maybe he was following Jessica. Jessica and his. His mom and dad, and maybe he tried to turn back and they were like, oh, yeah, go back to grandpa or something. And maybe something happened.

[Em]

Oh, yeah, maybe.

[Cristine]

And instead of. Because they were so perhaps wracked with guilt, terrified, who knows, panicked, like, who knows what happened? But I feel like it's very possible that an accident occurred. Either one of them felt responsible and panicked and tried to turn the story into a little bit. Bit more like no, no, we left him with Grandpa, remember? And Grandpa's like, I don't remember you leaving me with. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, maybe there was some communication that didn't get through and who knows? Who knows? But I feel like the most likely thing is maybe an accident.

[Em]

I also. Well, I don't know. What do 2 year olds freak out if like someone they don't know grabs their hand and walks them away? Because like, would we have heard a sound if someone else talking?

[Cristine]

So that was one of the abduction theories. But that road is so isolated that like, that's what they were saying is that you would have heard a car.

[Em]

Right.

[Cristine]

There's no way they would. That somebody, I mean, unless I guess they like bicycled there. But it's. It just feels like unlikely. And I also feel like, I mean, she did describe him as a very independent two year old. So I'm like, maybe he just. And not clingy and, you know, so.

[Em]

I'm like, I mean, this could be the.

[Cristine]

He literally could have wandered off. Maybe he was being watched by grandpa and grandpa can't bring himself to say. Like, yeah, I remember. Maybe he really didn't hear her say watch him, you know, who knows?

[Em]

Could be the JonBenet Ramsey situation. Just a fucking owl came in and just swooped him up. Yeah, I mean, it could be.

[Cristine]

That was not John. That was the staircase. But, you know, whatever.

[Em]

I know like a random fucking owl theory exists. I thought it was John.

[Cristine]

Certainly not JonBenet Ramsey. Although maybe, maybe we should add it to the canon.

[Em]

You know what? At this point it's as plausible. But I, maybe like, I thought the.

[Cristine]

Theory you meant was about the brother. And I'm like, oh. I was like, oh, maybe a sibling. Then I was like, wait, no, they weren't with siblings.

[Em]

No, I mean, I think honestly the. If he went fishing, I feel like the only thing that could have happened is if someone was quick enough with it, they could have thrown him in the water and he drowned.

[Cristine]

Like, I mean, I really. But there's like, I don't see any motive for killing a baby though. Like, there's no motive. Right. So it's like I feel like it must have been an accident.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Cristine]

And I think they didn't want to admit it. Whether it was negligence, whether they just. Whether it was a freak accident and they just didn't want to admit they were involved or whether they felt responsible. Right. Because like, maybe she told him to go back by himself. He's a big boy. Who knows? Like, I'M making up hypotheticals, but, yeah. I just feel like there are so many ways that you could accidentally feel responsible and then, like, spend your whole life covering it up because. Because you don't want to face it. I'm not saying that's what happened.

[Em]

Again, it sounds like it was just.

[Cristine]

A freak accident, but either way, even if they have no clue what happened, he's. His remains have never been found, and it's like, we don't know. So whatever happened, it's, like, very, very tragic for the family either way, right?

[Em]

It's definitely bad, but horrible.

[Cristine]

It's just horrible.

[Em]

And it also sucks because, like, if it was just, like, you know, either negligence or, like, people, like, just an accident, all of a sudden, the whole family's turned against each other for, like, something they didn't have to.

[Cristine]

I know.

[Em]

Question each other on.

[Cristine]

Sounds so heartbreaking. Like, it feels like something out of a novel, you know, like some really, like, dark family history stuff. That's like skeletons in the closet, that kind of shit. If that is, you know, what actually happened happen. But we don't know. I will say that the investigator who believes that Dior may have died in an accident and the adults felt the need to cover it up, he believes that Dior's remains are still near the spot where he disappeared. And in the People Investigates coverage they did, he said, we are still actively working on this right now as I speak to you. Like, wow. So.

[Em]

And how old would he be now? Now?

[Cristine]

Well, so he was born in 2012.

[Em]

So it'd be 23. 13.

[Cristine]

13. December 2012.

[Em]

Yeah, 13.

[Cristine]

So 12. Yeah. I guess.

[Em]

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[Cristine]

Oh, it's just too. It's just so tragic. And he was such a little cutie pie. So here are the last couple things here. Vernal and Jessica maintain their individual innocence in Dior's disappearance, even if they sometimes. Sometimes, like, raise eyebrows at each other. But, you know, that aside, Jessica has said in interviews that she feels deep down that Dior is alive and well somewhere in the world. So she suspects someone kidnapped him and raised him as their own child. Which just feels like maybe that mom.

[Em]

With the two kids had three kids by the end of it. I don't know. I don't know. There was no other people in the woods.

[Cristine]

Know, it just feels like such a stretch. Like, you know when they say, like, Occam's Razor, like. Yeah, I mean, of course that's what you would want to believe. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not faulting her for, like, we're pro hope. Yes. Yes. And I. You know, hopefully that is what happened and that he's alive and well and happy, but, you know, it just feels like I doubt that that's really actually what happened. Some of Dior's extended family believe he was abducted as well, but they typically believe he was abducted, murdered, and buried in the force. The only hope is that somebody will either find his remains and we'll get some more answers, or that someone will come forward with information that gives the family closure. But for now, the case remains open. There have been a lot of rumors also surrounding it. There was one rumor that one of the investigators, or maybe one of the. I forget who exactly it was, claimed that they saw the jacket and boots in the family's home that he was wearing that day.

[Em]

Interesting. Okay.

[Cristine]

And I need. I don't know that I don't think that's been, like, officially verified, but there's. There's a lot of talk around this case. And so I think as far as unsolved cases go, this might be one we actually do eventually get answers on, I hope.

[Em]

Yeah, that's. Yeah, there's. There's no real answer. You would think with only, like, five people involved, like, it would be a easier conclusion, but. Wild.

[Cristine]

Yeah, it is. You know, you just gotta. But then you wonder how many people even know what happened. Like, maybe only one person knows. And.

[Em]

Yeah, that's wild.

[Cristine]

Yeah. Who knows? It's just really sad. So that is my story. Anything to add before we. We head to our yappy hour so I can have a little glass of vino?

[Em]

No. Come to our shows and read our books and listen to our yappy hours and solve crime, if you can figure it out, because that'd be great. It would really help us out. It would also give us material to update people with. So do your part online. Investigators unite. No, I got nothing. What do you got? Just.

[Cristine]

Let's. Let's just go to Yapyar. We'll have a glass of wine, hang out there. If anyone wants to join, you can come. It's patreon.com ATWD podcast, I believe. And, yeah, otherwise, like Em said, we're on tour. Go to mthsfydrink.com live and hopefully we'll see you out and about. And a boot out and about. And we don't even have a Canada date, do we? That was rude. That felt like a spoiler.

[Em]

That wasn't like a kick in the crotch.

[Cristine]

Sorry. And you. My bad.

[Em]

Yeah, and that's why we drink.