E427 Chiropractic Adjustments for the Soul and Could-Be-Me Shadow Men

Summary

Podcast Summary: And That's Why We Drink – Episode E427 Release Date: April 13, 2025
Hosts: Christine Schiefer and Em Schulz
Title: Chiropractic Adjustments for the Soul and Could-Be-Me Shadow Men

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Introduction

In Episode E427 of And That's Why We Drink, hosts Christine Schiefer and Em Schulz blend their signature mix of chilling ghost stories with gripping true crime narratives. This episode delves into the mysterious hauntings of the Farrar Schoolhouse and recounts the tragic story of Amber Hagerman, whose abduction led to the creation of the Amber Alert system.

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Personal Updates and Lighthearted Banter

Before diving into the main stories, Christine and Em share personal anecdotes and updates, offering listeners a glimpse into their lives. They discuss their struggles with mental health, the challenges of modern-day parenting, and the antics of their beloved dogs. These segments provide a relatable and engaging foundation, setting the stage for the more intense stories to follow.

Notable Quotes:

• Christine: "I've been working on a lot of deep psychological stuff... why do I keep having nightmares or insomnia?" (04:52)
• Em: "I feel like my reality is slowly being written for me by this dog." (16:24)

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Spooky Story: The Haunted Farrar Schoolhouse

The first major story explores the eerie history of the Farrar Schoolhouse in Farrar, Iowa. Built in 1919 on donated farmland, this 17,000 square-foot building was initially meant to consolidate multiple one-room schoolhouses. Equipped with modern amenities for its time, including electricity and indoor bathrooms, the school quickly became a community hub.

However, the school's grandeur masked a series of unexplained paranormal activities, possibly linked to a nearby 150-year-old cemetery. Over the decades, numerous investigators and ghost enthusiasts have reported strange phenomena:

• Auditory Hallucinations: Footsteps, furniture moving, and indistinct voices.
• Visual Apparitions: Shadow figures, orbs of light, and full-body apparitions of children and adults.
• Physical Interactions: Hands pushing individuals, objects being thrown, and doors slamming shut.

The hosts detail various encounters, including visits from well-known paranormal investigators and YouTubers like Sam and Colby, who documented their experiences within the abandoned school. Em shares insights from his extensive research, emphasizing the school's reputation as one of America's most haunted educational institutions.

Notable Quotes:

• Em: "They hear conversations in off rooms. They hear music playing. They've heard old radio broadcasts." (53:32)
• Christine: "It's bad. It's dark in a building that used to be a school is so scary." (54:13)

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True Crime Story: The Abduction of Amber Hagerman

The centerpiece of this episode is the heartbreaking case of Amber Hagerman, a nine-year-old girl whose abduction in 1996 led to the establishment of the Amber Alert system—a nationwide initiative to broadcast child abduction information swiftly to the public.

Background

Amber lived in Arlington, Texas, with her single mother, Donna, and younger brother, Ricky. Despite facing domestic challenges, Donna worked tirelessly to provide a stable environment for her children. On January 13, 1996, Amber and Ricky were riding their bikes in a local parking lot—a common playground for the duo.

The Abduction

At approximately 3:10 PM, Donna heard Ricky expressing concern that Amber was missing after they had only been at the parking lot for about ten minutes. Upon investigating, Donna discovered Amber's bike abandoned nearby, but there was no sign of Amber herself. Shortly after, a neighbor reported seeing Amber forcibly taken by a man in a black pickup truck. Surveillance footage was too blurry to identify the vehicle.

The Aftermath

Amber's discovery came three hours post-abduction, far too late to intervene effectively. Tragically, her body was found in a drainage ditch, and the perpetrator was never identified. The emotional toll on Donna was immense, compounded by systemic failures that denied her social benefits despite the public support she garnered.

Creation of the Amber Alert

In the wake of Amber's abduction, Donna advocated tirelessly for a more efficient alert system. Partnering with a local radio resident, Diana Simone, she successfully lobbied for a collaboration between law enforcement and radio stations to immediately broadcast child abduction information. This endeavor culminated in the Amber Alert system's inception in October 1996, named in Amber's memory.

Impact and Legacy:

• As of December 31, 2024, 1,268 children have been safely recovered thanks to the Amber Alert system.
• The first child rescued through the Amber Alert was Rayleigh Bradbury in 1998, just two years after its implementation.
• Despite the system's success, Amber's case remains unsolved, leaving lingering questions and emotions for her family.

Notable Quotes:

• Christine: "Amber's legacy, of course, is bittersweet... there are these happy stories that come out of it, but you don't ever really recover from something like that." (137:58)
• Em: "Rayleigh was quickly rescued. She was returned safely to her mother, and she became the first child to be saved by the Amber Alert system." (138:21)

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Conclusion

Episode E427 intertwines personal narratives with profound true crime storytelling, highlighting both the haunting mysteries of the Farrar Schoolhouse and the enduring impact of Amber Hagerman's tragic abduction. Christine and Em skillfully balance empathy and suspense, delivering a compelling episode that resonates emotionally and intellectually with their audience.

Final Thoughts:

• The hosts emphasize the importance of community awareness and the effectiveness of systems like the Amber Alert in saving lives.
• Listeners are encouraged to reflect on the societal changes prompted by true crime cases and the ongoing quest for justice.

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Note: Timestamps in quotes correspond to moments within the transcript, providing context and authenticity to the stories shared.

Transcript

[Christine]

So have you ever been speed dating? Have you? I haven't. That's cool. Well, apparently if you're the owner of a growing business, imagine that there's speed dating, but for hiring people. That's kind of what we did when we went through people who applied to be Eva. And all of a sudden it was like, here's Eva in the middle of this beautiful pile of. Of. And we did the speed dating and. And she sat down and we said, ding, ding, ding.

[Em]

If you were hoping for some sort of speed dating for you when it comes to a job search or an employee search, well, good news there is. It's zip intro from ZipRecruiter and you can post your job today and start talking to qualified candidates tomorrow. And right now, you can try Zip Intro for free at ziprecruiter.com Drink Zip.

[Christine]

Intro gives you the power to quickly assess excellent candidates for your job via back to back video calls. Oh, so it's like, really is like speed dating. You simply pick a time and Zip Intro does all the work of finding and scheduling qualified candidates for you. Like they schedule, then you sit down, you choose who you want to talk to, and it's like bing, bang, boom.

[Em]

Enjoy the benefits of speed hiring with new Zip Intro only from ZipRecruiter, rated number one hiring site based on G2. Try Zip Intro for free at ZipRecruiter.com.

[Christine]

Drink again, that's ZipRecruiter.com Drink Zip Intro post jobs today. Talk to qualified candidates tomorrow.

[Em]

Location, the lab. Quinton only has 24 hours to sell his car. Is that even possible? He goes to Carvana.com.

[Christine]

What is this, a movie trailer?

[Em]

He ignores the doubters, enters his license plate. Wow, that's a great offer. The car is sold, but will Carvana pick it up in time for.

[Christine]

They'll literally pick it up tomorrow morning.

[Em]

Done with the dramatics. Car selling in record time.

[Christine]

Save your time. Go to Carvana.com and sell your car today. Pick up these May apply.

[Em]

I noticed that you're the glinda to my Alphabet today.

[Christine]

Oh, I didn't do that on purpose, but I. Yes, I did though.

[Em]

Oh, that's very magical of you. I think I was good with green.

[Christine]

I didn't ever watch that film and I know I should have.

[Em]

I'm just surprised.

[Christine]

I just felt overwhelmed by the whole thing. And I. Like I've said this on the show. I hadn't seen a movie since 2019, so like, it just felt like a big step to go from nothing from like Pre covered to like suddenly seeing Wicked five years later. So I. I just kind of like. I kind of skirted past. I'm sure in a year I'll have like a full awakening about it and then everything will be on sale and I'll just, you know, be fine. But yeah, right now I'm just kind of winging it. So glad it's working though.

[Em]

I'm gonna skip right past that red flag and keep it moving. Don't worry. I saw it. I saw it enough times for both of us twice. So it's fine.

[Christine]

I know. That's what I mean. Like, I was so overwhelmed. I was like, listen, everyone else has got this handled. Like, I need.

[Em]

One of the best things that I. I wish you would have been a part of is that they for Christmas offered some movie theaters sing along options so you could go and be annoying instead of like, I like how they had to bring that promise early of like, don't fucking sing during the movie. We'll give you something for Christmas.

[Christine]

I know, but. But you were so intense about it that I was like, I think I'm not prepared for this. Like, Em is so prepared and so like, so like in it. And I'm not like, you were saying things I didn't even understand.

[Em]

I was like, yeah, makes sense what's happening.

[Christine]

And like, I've seen Wicked multiple times. I love Wicked. But like, I just missed this whole. This whole like, side quest we've had. Or not even side quests, but, like, leap forward in the Wicked lore. I've just kind of missed it. So I'll get there eventually. But. But for now, I just want to match with you.

[Em]

Thank you. Well, this is. I. I love that you were able to, you know, be a part of knockoff Wicked.

[Christine]

Yeah, thanks.

[Em]

And that's why this whole episode will be in song. Ready?

[Christine]

Honestly, careful what you wish for. Because I will. I will. Oh, boy.

[Em]

Welcome to and that's why We Drink presents the Wicked recap starring moi and Christine.

[Christine]

Yeah, I'm here too.

[Em]

What? What's going on? Why do you drink?

[Christine]

God. You know, this is. Okay, this is. First of all, it's been a really hard day. We ran out of iced coffee.

[Em]

I thought you might say something like that.

[Christine]

It was really difficult. And so I had to take the coffee from the coffee pot and put it over ice. And then.

[Em]

Oh my God.

[Christine]

It's just been a really hard day. And so I did that. And then that's what I'm drinking. But the reason I drink have a lot. But how Do I say this? You know when you're really traumatized by life?

[Em]

Yeah, of course.

[Christine]

Yeah. So I'm just kind of like exploring all that and getting like re traumatized over and over by accident. And it's about what? Just like everything. I, you know, I just, I've been working on a lot of like deep psychological stuff and therapy and like doing shadow work and like really digging into some dark things in my past, not to be traumatic. And then I'm like, why do I keep having like nightmares or like sleep, you know, like, why do I. Why do I have insomnia? Why do I keep having panic attacks? How come I can't breathe? And it's like, oh, right, because I'm just like dredging a bunch of shit up to like try and kind of get it out of my system. I think I've held on to a lot, you know, body keeps the score and all that. So I'm just kind of like on a day to day basis winging my life. And like last night I went to bed so late and I woke up from like this weird nightmare at like 4am and was like, good morning. And I'd slept like two hours and I was like, I'm awake now and I just kind of like, I just feel like I'm in kind of a space where my brain and my body and my soul are like, wait a minute, we're like. We need a chiropractic adjustment of all three of us or something to like put us back together.

[Em]

Okay, well, I know a chiropractor.

[Christine]

Do you? Yeah. Do you? Do I get a friends and family discount is what I want to know.

[Em]

You if you wanted to be there. Yeah.

[Christine]

I actually, I actually think maybe that person that you're talking about may have like contributed to part of this, you know, probably, you know, and some. On some like, on some like dark psychic level. Certainly, certainly for me.

[Em]

Yeah, but certainly for you.

[Christine]

And I can't imagine it didn't like leak over. Like, I'm sure the time we've spent together, all our shit has leaked over into everyone's sludge.

[Em]

Kind of slams it, know each other eventually. Yeah.

[Christine]

So. But the good news is I've been writing a lot. Like, like a mad Woman. Like I. I scrolled up through something I was. Had been writing and I was like, what in what am I? Is this a manifesto? Like, what am I doing? And then I look closer and like, don't worry, it wasn't a manifesto. But at first I was like, man, I just have a Lot of to say. And I think it's just I'm like purging a lot of like, memories and things that I want to get out of my system and. And you know, not be awoken by at like 6am so that's where I'm at. And I didn't see. So my coffee being gone has been really hard. Have I read it?

[Em]

I get it, I get it. I. I mean, first of all, you're so brave with the coffee. Oh my God.

[Christine]

Thank you so, so much that I.

[Em]

Don'T know how you've survived to tell your story.

[Christine]

First of all, well, I barely have, as you can tell.

[Em]

Second of all, do you feel like in this journey you're on, I mean, maybe it's too amorphous, big blob, vagueness that you can't. You wouldn't know the answer to this. But do you feel like you're 50% out of the woods? Do you feel like you're just starting? Do you feel like it gets worse before it gets better?

[Christine]

I think I'm in that, like, I think I'm in a really transformative spot where it will be kind of like. Like I think I've gone through a lot of the hard things, like the really big like, hurdles, and now it's just kind of like the come down from all that, like, just get like. It's almost like I had a very heightened and like intensely anxious, like few months, you know, and then you kind of like afterwards you feel like kind of sick or your body, like it's like purge, like purging it. It almost feels like I'm like purging stuff and it's like I have so much like I'll. Now that I'm doing like a lot of trauma work, I like realize I'm like. A lot of my body just starts like shaking, you know, and it's just like this trauma release stuff. And so I've been kind of in a weird, like, physical space. But it doesn't feel bad. Like, it feels like you're getting stuff out of your system, if that makes sense. But it's like a lot. It's like very overwhelming, but in a good way, you know, so it's. It's a journey, but I feel a bit more clarity than I. Than I used to. And I feel like I'm. I feel like things are getting better, but it's been like one of those. I was like, all right, I'm ready to do it. My therapist was like, are you sure we're gonna dive into the dirt, deep dark stuff. And I was like, yeah, no problem. So I knew it would be a rough year, but it's. It's kind of like, it's bumpy.

[Em]

Anyway, it's April. I mean, and it's only April. What's eight more months?

[Christine]

You know, what's eight more months? So anyway, that's where I'm at. How are you?

[Em]

M. Man, this dog has this dog. I gotta say, last night, talk about transformative. Cuz I am. I feel like a different person these days.

[Christine]

Literally. We got on the call and then goes, go eat your cucumbers. And I'm like, oh my God, did you. Did your dog. It's a three year old now. I think you have a toddler. Like I do. Like it's. You've become a parent so fast. And at last night and called me and was like, oh, like the dog is acting funny. Like. And I was like, this dog is like. You said something like, oh, I want to make sure I'm not just like overreacting. I'm like, you're not overreacting. Nothing's like I don't think terribly wrong. You're not overreacting though. Because this dog is like banana like boss.

[Em]

Yes. Yeah.

[Christine]

Like I thought like, oh, you know, people are like, oh, I'm overreacting about. Like I'm too anxious about the dog. And I'm like, yeah, well, I'm thinking about one particular friend and I'm like, please like put down the phone. You don't need to call 91 1. You know, he's just took an extra long nap today or whatever, you know. But like with your dog, it's like, oh no, something's up. I just don't know that a veterinarian can fix it. I think he's really out there, much.

[Em]

Like all the other people surrounding my life, that there's. There's no doctor who can save them.

[Christine]

Oh boy. This dog though, Em was like, this is what he's doing. He's trying to climb into the car backwards. And I went, I'm sorry, what? And Em goes, I don't understand. Like he's just acting so strange. He's suddenly doing all these things and I'm like, I don't know, man.

[Em]

I don't know if he's just like kind of like got a screw loose.

[Christine]

I don't know.

[Em]

I mean it feels like he's doing things that like a little three year old would try to do. Like if. Right.

[Christine]

It feels like a child. Like the way you Described it. And then you're like, oh. And now he knows it's gonna bother me. So he did this. And then like, oh, he took this and hid it somewhere in. And I'm like, this is a. This is.

[Em]

He's mischievous. He's very mischievous and he knows it.

[Christine]

And he's smart, which is so dangerous.

[Em]

Yeah. The thing that scared me yesterday is that he got a hold of like, the. The bag that has like plastic clips on it and he bit the clip. I got very freaked out thinking he swallowed it. And I was like, do I go to the doctor? What do I do? But I also. It. It really overshadowed the fact that he is a lot like me because in that bag was 5m sized handfuls of treats that were supposed to last a week. And he ate all of them.

[Christine]

And then. And then all the activity started with him. It sounds like I'm saying ghost activity, but like, it is sort of paranormal activity that he's doing. And he starts jumping into the car backwards and he starts like weaving in and out around the sidewalk. And I'm like, I. I don't know if he's just like, jazzed because he like, gotcha good. You know, if he's like all alpha now because he broke the back. I don't know. I don't know. Or he's like, has so many treats in him that he's like, is hyper.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

It was just bananas to witness.

[Em]

I was like, what the is going on? And then Christine even asked, like, were there edibles?

[Christine]

I literally wonder, is he high and left and was like, no, I've already thought of that to check because, like, that's how like, strange, erratic he's acting. Well, yeah, he's better now, right?

[Em]

He's fine. He seems to be. He, He. By the way, the sound you're hearing, everybody, if it sounds like little rumblings. And in the audio, he has decided that only right here is where he wants to eat the bone that keeps him quiet. So, so much for being quiet. It's actually a little annoying. But this is the most quiet he'll be. So we all have to unfortunately sit through this. So that's what's going on with.

[Christine]

It's like you brought your kid to school and you're like, just stay, sit. Well, I don't know if this ever happened because your parent is not a teacher, but my mom, when she would sometimes teach at UC and like, one of us was sick, she would. Or like, was faking sick, usually she would bring us along and we'd have to sit, like, underneath her desk, like.

[Em]

As if Sputnik was gonna happen. Well, I. Yeah, I think hide in case there was, like a. Like a.

[Christine]

Some sort of the crowd on their way. No, because I. I think it's because probably she was like a TA and she probably was not supposed to bring her child to work. And I think she was like, go hide under my desk. And so I. I remember just sitting under there and drawing, and now I'm like, I probably wasn't supposed to be there.

[Em]

I. Yeah.

[Christine]

Can you imagine being in a college class? And then you're like, is that a person under that? Like, did I just see feet under that desk? Like, what's happening? I would be so freaked out.

[Em]

And like, little. Little girl. A little girl giggling.

[Christine]

Oh, my God.

[Em]

I'd be like, is this place haunted? For sure. Like, for sure. Please tell me you snuck your kid in here. Otherwise, it's a ghost.

[Christine]

Yeah. Yeah, it was me.

[Em]

Hang on. No, no, we're not doing that. Can you eat that? Oh, no. Okay. Good boy.

[Christine]

And like, 99% of the time, I would have been like a sinus infection. So I can't imagine it sounded very nice to have me under there. And I can't imagine it was a very clean place for my sinuses. But, you know, again, my mom was a single mom and had to take me to work. It's not her fault. I'm telling you what it feels like with you and this dog all of a sudden.

[Em]

Thank you. I'll take that as a compliment. I do want you to know that you just pretend that you've heard rumors that this school is haunted, and you're one of the students sitting in that class. And then you hear a sick little girl speaking German and giggling under a desk.

[Christine]

No, she's just, like, humming a German lullaby, like, to try and take a nap.

[Em]

Just leaving her, like little rag doll on the floor somewhere. Yeah, man. Well, yeah. Anyway, the reason I drink is just one. Hank still hasn't been adopted to our. To our knowledge. I don't know when this comes out, what that will look like. Everyone seems half interested at the dog park. But then, you know, he still hasn't found his mommy and daddy or mommy and mommy, or daddy and daddy, or parent and parent. And I really. I really. I really want him to one. Because I'm so tired, too. Because, like, I just feel bad. Like, I keep doing that thing where when he's, like, sleeping so peacefully, then I just think about, like, oh, he doesn't have a home. And, like, I just, I. Then I like, start getting really emotional.

[Christine]

That's how they get you.

[Em]

Well, it's not getting. I just keep thinking, hurry up. Like, like find something. But no, I'm just. I. I feel like my reality is slowly, like being written for me that this dog seems to just be my dog begrudgingly. And I keep wanting to find him a place. I want him to like, have, you know, a yard and all that. But it's just.

[Christine]

What if you found out. What if you found out that I had Megan screen all the DMS and emails so that nobody adopted him, so then you kept him forever, you know, Can I do that? Is that a thing I can do? That seems. That's probably the most fucked up. I think that's probably really up because you're really not supposed to, like, force anyone to have a pet they're not ready for. But I just. Something is like, man, the second you said Hank to me when I asked you what his name was, I was like, oh, that's an M dog name.

[Em]

Which is wild because I would never name a dog Hank.

[Christine]

I just feel like it feels so. Hank. It feels so right to me. I have no did too. But that one seems like one you would name like, as an eight year old, you would name a dog.

[Em]

That's true. I know he's. I will say that him and I have gotten into, like, we understand each other now and like, I have a. On most days, he's very good. It's just his, like, if you leave him alone for too long, he's still like a baby and like, just gets rowdy. And so like, that was how yesterday happened where he bit into that thing because it was the first time I like, left for a long period of time. Right. So like, I do have a crate. He has a crate. But he. If you come back within like a few hours, he's totally fine. This was the first time I was like, testing like an all day situation. Oh, I see. So I, I knew I was testing the waters. I so. And then. So you kind of need to walk.

[Christine]

Into a bad situation.

[Em]

I literally took a big deep breath before I opened the door. I was like, what am I gonna find? But no, he's usually good if you leave him alone for, you know, a certain amount of time. But yeah, we're. We're figuring it out. And the. I will say this is not something I ever expected, but I am really popping off in the dog park community.

[Christine]

I knew that, that you never thought you'd say that.

[Em]

I feel like so.

[Christine]

Right.

[Em]

I feel like a PTA dad or something.

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm serious. This is what you're becoming, and I feel like, honestly, I bore witness to it last night over the phone, and I felt like while you were taking the dog to the dog park, and I was like, this is like. I'm watching you blossom into a role that I was waiting. That's perfect for you. It's beautiful.

[Em]

My old sorority years are coming back where I, like. I'm really. I know everyone's name. I know all their dogs.

[Christine]

Mother hen.

[Em]

Yeah. So anyway, I. I don't really know why I drink. I think it's just, like, a. A vague.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

Hank theme. Yeah. It's just the theme of Hank. But I don't know if I. If I drink in a good way or I drink in a bad way, because in some ways, I'm really grateful that, you know, I've learned quite a lot about myself through this. I learned that I can train a dog if I have to. I learned that I'm very good at the dog park, but I'm also just. He's a puppy, and I'm tired, and as I'm saying this, he's trying to get on the table, so. Nope, nope, nope, nope. No, thank you.

[Christine]

Hey, there he is.

[Em]

Can you sit? I don't know what you want. Okay, well, just. Okay, just sit.

[Christine]

Yeah. That's a handful. That's more than a hand. Oh, my God.

[Em]

Thank you.

[Christine]

Okay, everyone, I was. Oh, my God. He's so cutie. Pretty.

[Em]

Good boy. Good boy. Good.

[Christine]

Oh, look at that. That is like Gio's cousin, except with cattle dog. Dog. Is that what that spotting is?

[Em]

Yeah. I am assuming cattle dog.

[Christine]

Look at him. He is such a little ham. Oh, my God.

[Em]

Yeah. Every. Every minute with him is a different adventure than the last.

[Christine]

Wow. This dog is.

[Em]

No biting.

[Christine]

Hey.

[Em]

Gentle.

[Christine]

Yeah. Gio kind of wasn't ever. He was a puppy, and he was a pain in the ass, but he was so much smaller.

[Em]

Yeah, this is a big. When he. Big boys make big problems. Is that right? Hankies?

[Christine]

That's what we always say.

[Em]

That's what we say. Little hanky panky. Oh, no. See, he's trying to get on the table. Okay, so this is what happens when.

[Christine]

They feel slightly validated and then they're, like, got. Here I come.

[Em]

Let go. Leave it. You have the headphone cord? Leave it. Hank, grab him by the scrap. No, I got it. I just had to unleash his jaw, unlock his jaw. Hankies. Let's what are we gonna do?

[Christine]

Look at it. He's putting his paw on your arm.

[Em]

I know. He thinks he's precious. He's not. Come here. Do you see this over there? Go away. Okay. Like, I have to meal prep before. We record, like, five different interactive toys, so when he gets bored of one, he's got another one. It's very annoying.

[Christine]

Just like you've become. It's just amazing. It just feels like you've entered a new era, even if it's temporary, which, like, I'm assuming someone will adopt Hank. But, like, even this little window, I'm like, this is hilarious. It feels like you. Not in a mean way, but just, like, wow. I'm, like, watching you in a totally different dynamic than I'm used to. And it's very interesting, I'm sure.

[Em]

Yeah. Because, like, I haven't.

[Christine]

No need to have a pet at all ever. So it's like, this is so to.

[Em]

Take care of something other than myself. Yeah. It's.

[Christine]

Yeah. Not even a plant I've seen, so, you know, it's really fun for me to watch.

[Em]

Well, thank you.

[Christine]

I grow in the. Into the role.

[Em]

Thank you. And to. Yeah. Anyway, I've taken up way too much time talking about him. I've become a dog parent where he's all I have to say.

[Christine]

I don't mind. Yeah, I don't mind. Remember the beginning. It's all. People still complain. We don't talk about Geo enough. And I'm like, trust me, we did enough of that for.

[Em]

This is like. This is like season eight of a show where it's slowly dying down, and you're like, oh, we gotta bring a new baby on.

[Christine]

Like, oh, we gotta, like, rile everybody up, get some good promo going.

[Em]

Yeah, maybe I already adopted him, and I'm just letting it linger for a year.

[Christine]

Oh, you're just playing along. Like, will they. Won't they become a family?

[Em]

Exactly. No. Anyway, it. It does feel like I did not necessarily want to have this dog around, certainly not for this long. I don't think he wants to be here. And so every morning, we kind of look at each other, and we just eye roll.

[Christine]

Another day.

[Em]

You again. All right, let's keep it moving.

[Christine]

Back at it.

[Em]

So anyway, that's why I drink. Hank is the reason. Yeah, that's it. What are you drinking?

[Christine]

My gross. Coffee.

[Em]

Oh, right. I'm drinking me a water. Until a certain someone whose name rhymes with spank, he's gonna. He's gonna hear the crinkle of the water bottle and Go nuts.

[Christine]

Don't you dare squeeze that thing, or else. We know how the day will go.

[Em]

He loves a bottle. Okay, well, before he notices that he. That there's other food frozen available to him, let's get into a story.

[Christine]

Yay. Oh, happy 222.

[Em]

I just looked at the clock on the second.

[Christine]

Oh, my God. Yeah. Four, two.

[Em]

Wait. Sorry. Can I be selfish with my time for a second?

[Christine]

No.

[Em]

I do have another reason why I drink, and it's a big one. Is that, first of all, today is my mother's birthday, but yesterday was her. Her first day of retirement.

[Christine]

I saw that.

[Em]

It's a very weird feeling to have her retired because her whole. Her whole identity was, like, in. It was her job. So I. I'm actually very hesitant to see who she will become now because I've never known her to be. To be anything else powerful.

[Christine]

You and Linda are both going through such life changes right now.

[Em]

I know. Maybe she can take the dog.

[Christine]

I was gonna say Linda's a grandma also now. Or I'm sure she wants to go buy Gigi or something.

[Em]

Oh, she. By the way, this is like. I didn't even set this up. Do you know what she goes by with, like, her?

[Christine]

No. Well, let me guess.

[Em]

Take a look. Take a look at the two of us, and her name is Linda.

[Christine]

I don't get it.

[Em]

Glinda. No.

[Christine]

Oh. Oh. See, she. She wants to be called Glinda. Oh, like Grandma Linda. Like. Or G. Linda. Okay, I get it.

[Em]

Yeah. She. I didn't know this. I found out when other small children.

[Christine]

Pretty clever.

[Em]

I found out when other small children saw her on FaceTime and went, hi, Glinda. And I went, what the fuck did you just say? And apparently that's the name she picked.

[Christine]

So, I mean, it really is like something you would do.

[Em]

So, I mean, she's. There's not a moment in her life she doesn't want to be wearing a tiara. So, I mean, it works out.

[Christine]

I'm so happy for her, though. Congrats, Glinda.

[Em]

Thank you. I. Yeah, no, it's a. It's a very big time. And also, she started her job at 23, and today she turned 63. So it was 40 whole years of. Of her job, and so.

[Christine]

So you've hurt your whole life. Yeah, she's had this. Yeah. Wow. That's really cool.

[Em]

It's a. It's a very weird time. So if anyone else is going through their parents retiring and it feels really strange, just know that you're not Alone. Because it's. It's a weird identity crisis for me because I now have to relearn her identity because she was so enmeshed in her. In that world. So anyway, it's. It'll be a weird adjustment period.

[Christine]

I wait to hear about all her new hobbies. That will be. I'm sure.

[Em]

I'm scared.

[Christine]

Me too. But I can't wait.

[Em]

And I. And I wonder too, with this much free time, at some point she will be the Jewish mother trope and just appear on my doorstep at some point.

[Christine]

So terrified when she finds out she has a grandson named Hank who can.

[Em]

Magically say Glinda with his mouth and everything.

[Christine]

It's amazing. He's so well trained.

[Em]

Anyway, that's the real reason why I drink. So happy birthday to my mom and congratulations. But also very scared.

[Christine]

So me too.

[Em]

So, as you know, we recently moved into a house and I'm not getting. One of the first things Allison said was the blinds have to go. The blinds that are the last person. Her name's Lindsay. Sorry, Lynn's. But your blinds kind of suck. It's.

[Christine]

It's maybe not her fault. Maybe she didn't know about three day Blinds. Okay. We have. We have like that, that extra edge because we know all about three day blind blinds and how much it can transform your home. Let me just tell you. It's 2025 people. Are your blinds still from 2005? I mean, my guess is. Yeah, my guess is probably earlier than that, to be honest. Well, Three Day Blinds is here right now. If you use our URL three day blinds.com drink, they're actually running a buy one get one 50 off deal that was just directed at Allison right now because I know she needs it. Yeah.

[Em]

Three Day Blinds has local, professionally trained design consultants with an average of over 10 years of experience. And they provide expert guidance on the perfect blinds for your space. All comfort of your home. Choose from thousands of options that fit any budget or style with actual samples that you won't be guessing what your blinds will look like right now.

[Christine]

Get quality window treatments that fit your budget with 3 Day Blinds. Head to 3 Day Blinds.com drink for their buy one, get one 50 off deal on custom blinds, shades, shutters and.

[Em]

Drapery for a free, no charge, no obligation consultation. Just go to three. That's the number three three day blinds.com drink one last time. That's buy one get one 50% off when you visit the number three D A Y blinds.com drink. So Christine, I tried to be productive this week and go physically grocery shopping and I, because I am. I like to suffer, I suppose.

[Christine]

Yeah, I guess so.

[Em]

I hated it. I have really gotten so used to hungry root just handling it for me that. Yeah, I don't know what I was thinking.

[Christine]

What were you thinking? You should have talked. You should have called me before you did that so I could have talked you down.

[Em]

Well, they handle the weekly grocery shopping for you and recommend healthy groceries based on your taste, nutrition preferences and health goals. And they make it easy, easy to eat high quality, nutritious food when you're aiming for anti inflammatory, gut friendly, gluten free, dairy free, high protein. Any dietary goals you have.

[Christine]

All you have to do is share your preferences and goals and like the number of hungry and, and kind of mean toddlers in your house and they will build you like the most beautiful shopping cart.

[Em]

Yeah. And the quality is top notch. There's no high fructose corn syrup, artificial sweeteners or preservatives. Plus their meat and seafood are sourced without hormones or antibiotics.

[Christine]

We love hungry root. Take advantage of this exclusive offer for a limited time. Get 40 off your first box plus get a free item every box for life. Go to hungryroot.com drink and use code.

[Em]

Drink that's hungryroot.com drink code drink to get 40 off your first box and a free item of your Choice for Life. Hungryroot.com Drink Code Drink. Okay, here is a spooky story for you, Christine. I worked very hard on this so you better be nice to me at the end.

[Christine]

I'll try my best. I'll try. You know, it's hard for me, but I'll try.

[Em]

This is the Farrar schoolhouse and this is a 17, 000 square foot schoolhouse. So in my mind when I think schoolhouse I think like, oh like a, like a one room schoolhouse. This was a way to merge multiple one room school houses and it became a big ass school building.

[Christine]

Oh wow.

[Em]

So it's a school mansion.

[Christine]

Okay, so it's like. But it is. Is it one prop, one building or is it like multiple buildings on, on the prop?

[Em]

So there were multiple schoolhouses in neighboring counties. But I guess the towns were really small back then. So around 1919 this farmer, he donated six acres of his own farmland that I guess happened to like be central to all of those schools and they decided to merge all of them. So I don't know if that means like build new things to connect all the spaces or just close them all out.

[Christine]

Push them together.

[Em]

Push them together or since they Were all centrally located. All the kids could find their way to this new building kind of in the middle of all of that.

[Christine]

Like a headquarters.

[Em]

Yeah. So this town was super small that. I mean, they're merging one room schoolhouses. So it's like one step above the smallest you can be.

[Christine]

But it's. How many. But it's huge, right? Or no, how many square feet?

[Em]

17,000, but I think that includes. Outside.

[Christine]

I was gonna say that is. That's ginormous. That has to be the full land. Right. Or the property itself.

[Em]

That's like. I mean, it sounds huge to me.

[Christine]

I mean, unless it's like many, many stories and it's, you know, it's three.

[Em]

Stories in a basement. But it does. When I've seen. I did a. I walked in a whole like video walkthrough tour of it.

[Christine]

You would.

[Em]

And I mean it's. I mean it's like school sized. It had like a gymnasium and an auditorium.

[Christine]

But it's all good at numbers. So I could be like totally off. And that's a normal size for a school. Just being like.

[Em]

So my house is under a thousand. So times my house by like 20. It's still.

[Christine]

Oh yes. That's. I guess that's like. Yeah, it's not that.

[Em]

I mean it's not. It's like big, but it's not.

[Christine]

It's multiple stories. Yeah. Yeah, that's fair.

[Em]

Yeah. And since it's three floors, I'm imagining. I don't know if you're a realtor, tell me, But I think 17 square feet is like including every single floor. So if you divide 17,000 by three floors, then maybe it's like, it's per.

[Christine]

Floor as long as it's like a livable, usable floor, not like a dirt basement sort of thing.

[Em]

Okay, so it's just like a really big house size.

[Christine]

Actually, the more I think about it, I'm like, well, yeah, actually that's probably not unreasonable to have a 17. I think I just hear one room schoolhouse and I think it's like the size of my bedroom.

[Em]

And then I'm like, I have the same thing. Because you think schoolhouse. You hear one room schoolhouse and then you hear square footage that's in the five digits and you're like, that doesn't feel right.

[Christine]

That's weird.

[Em]

So anyway, it's big enough to be a school, but yeah, it's on old farmland. The town Farrar, Iowa. It's in Iowa. It's a super small town. I literally looked up the population today and there's 13 houses.

[Christine]

Houses. Oh my God.

[Em]

Apparently there was. These days there's roughly 30 people that.

[Christine]

Oh my God.

[Em]

Officially living far. I think it's like it borders several other big counties.

[Christine]

It's like a teeny tiny little blip on the map. Maybe. Okay.

[Em]

A quote about their population. By the way, the speed limit sign doubles as the population sign and the speed limit sign is 35.

[Christine]

Oh my God. Wait. What a fun fact.

[Em]

I know. Isn't that fun?

[Christine]

I love that.

[Em]

And then the rest of the quote is the only growing population here is the cemetery. Yikes. Which great time for me to mention that across from this schoolhouse is a 150-year-old cemetery.

[Christine]

Okay, now we're talking.

[Em]

Which is where I think a lot of people assume the ghosts are from because there aren't any documented deaths or anything in the school. So they're like, where'd the ghosts come from? It's like probably the 150 year old cemetery across the way.

[Christine]

Yeah, could be. Could be. They wandered on over when they saw a 17, 000 square foot manor. And we're like, what's going on over here?

[Em]

They're like, that's better than my six foot long hole.

[Christine]

My box they put me in, you know.

[Em]

So that was 1919 that the farmer donated his acreage and by 1920 building was completed and now it's a school. But it was a very lavish school for 1922 because it had boilers, electricity, and indoor bathrooms.

[Christine]

Wow, that's pretty big. I feel like for. For a school.

[Em]

Yeah. And it was so big that a lot of the town. All three dozen people.

[Christine]

All three of them. Yeah.

[Em]

Some people were really upset about how much spending, like public spending went into this.

[Christine]

Oh well, they're probably like, why are all the kids, elementary kids getting indoor bathrooms all of a sudden? Like, yeah, in my day, I think.

[Em]

That'S that it must be a common thing around that time because I think it was the squirrel cage jailers. Oh, there was some jail that in there. In the town. The jail was the only place that had a bathroom. And everyone.

[Christine]

That's my intrusive thought, he's back.

[Em]

There was a jail that I covered at some point. I think it was squirrel cage jail where people were, were so upset that only the prisoners had a toilet and they didn't. And then they like didn't want to fund the prison. So maybe it was just like a thing though. Like these days it's like, oh, do you think like people should have human rights? And back then it was like, should prisoners have Toilets.

[Christine]

Well, they were. Well, it's because they were like, well, obviously they shouldn't have human rights. So that's already. That's asked and answered.

[Em]

Common thread. Common thread.

[Christine]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Em]

Or it was just like the. Yeah, they. There must have just been like. Like, oh, there's Grandpa. He's old school. He's jealous that everyone else has a potty, you know?

[Christine]

No, he brags about using the hole in the backyard. Like, you're just jealous. You're just jealous.

[Em]

That's true. Pull yourself by the bootstraps. Don't wipe. Yeah.

[Christine]

Back in my day.

[Em]

So, okay, so they were. Many of them were upset. And when I say, like, all three dozen, I think back then the county lines were different and Farrar was a.

[Christine]

Bigger place, or at least the cemetery wasn't quite as full because people were still alive.

[Em]

Yeah, Grandpa and his dirty potty. Yeah.

[Christine]

I mean, honestly, he's a. He's an institution in this town, it sounds like.

[Em]

So I think either the county lines were bigger or because there were. The towns nearby were more populated and everyone was now going to the central school. Farrar was. Even if only a few people lived there, it was still a common space to. To meet up and go. And so, like, hundreds of people went to this commencement ceremony that the school had when it opens. Like, it was like this open.

[Christine]

Try out the bathrooms.

[Em]

I think that was.

[Christine]

I mean, I would go for that. Right? Like, especially.

[Em]

I mean, imagine a world where, like, you've never experienced an indoor toilet, and you're like, I have to go try that.

[Christine]

And it's like, near your town or something. I mean.

[Em]

Yeah, there was. It was a huge ceremony. Apparently the people who were anti toilet, like, protested.

[Christine]

Oh, my God. I would. I wish. I wish somebody had, like, like, documented it. Yeah, like a newspaper article of, like, what the signs they brought said.

[Em]

Yeah, all squatty, no potty.

[Christine]

I was about to say that.

[Em]

Well, it's squatty.

[Christine]

It doesn't even make sense. I know. I was gonna say all potty, no squatty. And then you said. And I thought, we're geniuses. And then I realized it doesn't mean anything.

[Em]

There's got to be a pun somewhere about, like, this is.

[Christine]

Oh, yeah. But they couldn't. There's no way they said that.

[Em]

I'm pissed.

[Christine]

Yeah. But again, that feel like. It feels like it was too improper to say something like that, Especially if you were, like, opposed to a toilet being installed. That means you're, like, traditional, as you know.

[Em]

Give me more than 30 seconds. I'll come up with something.

[Christine]

Okay, okay.

[Em]

So some people had a problem with how much money because I will say it was 1922 and like a hundred grand was like spent on this. I think it's like this.

[Christine]

You're not better than me because you use toilet paper and I use a leaf to wipe. That's maybe what the sign said.

[Em]

You know, I don't have anything better. So yeah, that's great.

[Christine]

Was it worth just incredibly interrupting you in the middle of your sentence that I wasn't listening to?

[Em]

That's okay, I'll say it again. So the money that they did spend, I mean indoor plumbing was a big deal back then in the twenties. The, the amount that they paid was like a hundred grand then. I think it was. No, it was a hundred grand as the number. I think it was like a million dollars then.

[Christine]

Geez.

[Em]

And so yeah, a lot of people were like, you couldn't give us toilets first. So eventually people got over it. They joined in on the fact that this was the fancy new building in most people's area. And actually they really leaned into it. And because this was the only building in town with indoor bathrooms, the town made it like a public event space after school hours.

[Christine]

So smart.

[Em]

You know, by like 5:00 that place wreaked a poop because everyone was whole. Everyone was holding it until after school hours. They could go use the toilets.

[Christine]

Of course the poor plumber. Well, I guess they had to invent a plumber to find one. Then the poor plumber is like, oh, now everyone's using the bathroom and it's old school toilets. So like they're getting backed up, you know, I mean.

[Em]

Oh, they probably were like, now we need to spend more money for more toilets. Yeah, yeah.

[Christine]

We need to update the piping. Oh no, no.

[Em]

Well, so they held community events here. They held club meetings here, like Elk Lodges and were meet here weddings. Apparently some funerals were held here. All sorts of stuff that was like a, like a public community. It was like a third. Imagine having like the worst day of your life at school. And now your mom drags you to like an Elk Lodge meeting at the same at school.

[Christine]

Yeah. And you're like, now dad just. Cuz dad wants to poop there. Like come on mom.

[Em]

You know the dad like makes his kid go with him when he wants to go poop and he's like, it'd be weird if I went to the school.

[Christine]

It would be so weird if I went alone. You have to stand outside bathroom.

[Em]

Imagine the hall monitor Being, like, working overtime. When, like, an Elk Lodge person shows up, he's like, oh, my God, please watch.

[Christine]

That is so wrong.

[Em]

Do you have your hall pass? Please don't use our toilet, please. So the school was kindergarten through 12 until, I think, the 50s. And then it became just an. Either an elementary school or a middle school. I. Some sources said middle school, but there were literally, this school stayed open until the 2000s, the early 2000s. And there are YouTube videos. I wanted to send you one if you. You don't. There's nothing in particular you have to watch about it, but I thought you'd get a kick out of it, that there's, like, YouTube videos of, like, you know, dads making home videos at school of, like, their kids play or whatever. They have videos like that of little kids at this future haunted, abandoned building. And so it just feels really eerie. So, like, I just found, like, this is a video, like, second grade elementary school veterans program. And it's just a bunch of them, like, saying the pledge of allegiance 2001. To clarify, 2001. And so. And in 2001, I was in third grade. These kids are our age today.

[Christine]

Oh, wow.

[Em]

But it's so weird to see, like, video footage of when this place was popping versus, like, now. It's, like, decrepit.

[Christine]

Is it. Is it not a school anymore?

[Em]

It's still a school, but it's an abandoned school and very creepy.

[Christine]

But. So it's not, like, an active school. Like, there's no kids there. The top. The only comment on this video is from four months ago, and it says, I just came from Hell Week, 2024.

[Em]

And we'll explain. Don't worry.

[Christine]

Oh, that's the thing you already know about. I thought it was like, oh, maybe they had exams that week. And then you said, it's an abandoned school. And I said, never mind.

[Em]

You don't even worry about Hell week. It will get addressed. So. So, yeah, it was kindergarten through 12. Then it just became an elementary school, at least some people say. Also Middle School SATA abandoned after 2002. So it was open from 22 to 2002. 80 years. Sits abandoned for a couple years. And in 2006, a couple named Jim and Nancy, they buy it to restore it and turn it back into an event space and, like, make it look like it did in the 20s. But very quickly into owning the building, they started noticing very weird things. They started noticing voices, footsteps knocking, a.

[Christine]

Veterans program of second graders singing.

[Em]

Just, like, a pile of children saluting.

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah, the flag. It Was really disturbing.

[Em]

They would see shadow figures and weird light orbs everywhere. And one day, this was when Nancy was like, oh, this place is really haunted. She is climbing up some of the stairs and she falls backwards. And she felt her husband catch her from behind. But when she turned around, no one was there.

[Christine]

Wow, that's a twist. Usually it's like, oh, they got pushed. But it's like, oh, no, I got caught.

[Em]

You know, it's funny, maybe she was the monkey in Monkey in the middle and someone was shoving her and then another was catching her.

[Christine]

Oh, it feels like you just did that to the computer.

[Em]

That was Hank coming up here again.

[Christine]

Understood. He was like, are we playing a game? You said the word play.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

And you said the word monkey in the middle. And now I'm ready.

[Em]

Apologies to whatever disgusting chewing sounds you're all hearing right now. So Nancy falls and gets caught by something. And then she's like, oh, shit. Like, this place is haunted. A few weeks later, though, Nancy's walking on the same steps. And when she turns the corner, she stopped in her tracks by a full body apparition of a little boy on the stairs just staring at her. And she remembers clear as day, like his feet were on different steps. His hand, he was holding the railing and he looked right at her. And then they. And they disappeared.

[Christine]

Oh, my God. So, wow. Because that's one of those where you're like, oh. He was like surprised as she was almost like in dis.

[Em]

Like, yeah, like, he was like, oh, I gotta get out of here.

[Christine]

Yeah. It makes me question, like, is he accident? Intentionally, like, showing himself because he didn't think she would be there? I don't know. It's just. I don't know to think about.

[Em]

Yeah, it's like. Or did you want her to find you?

[Christine]

Yeah, on purpose.

[Em]

It makes you think, like around every corner you're not at. Are they just having a party, hoping you don't see them? Like, like.

[Christine]

And they. They usually disappear right before you look, you know?

[Em]

Yeah, well, eventually they're. And keep in mind, like, they bought this place to build it. But they were one, like, ahead of their time in terms of like, weird living. And they lived on the property. They lived.

[Christine]

Oh, cool.

[Em]

They live in the school building while they're restoring it. Which, like, if you had to live in a school house, a big ass school. I don't know the answer to this. I don't know what. Where they were staying, but what room would you pick?

[Christine]

Oh, I like this. I feel like probably pick the Art room. Because I feel like when I go into an art room at a school and we've been, like, doing some preschool and, like, you know, tours and stuff, and I. There's something about an art room that just feels very comforting to me. And I think it's just, like. I don't know, the smell of paint and paper and, like, just crafting and glue. Maybe it's just, like, I get high off the fumes. I don't know. But.

[Em]

Well, I. First of all, I think all of us have that memory of, like, shitty children's paint. But then.

[Christine]

Yeah, but it's. Something about it is just very comforting to me. I don't know.

[Em]

I think it's the room that encourages the most creativity and, like, freeness.

[Christine]

It feels safer than. To me than, like, a math classroom.

[Em]

Can you imagine? No.

[Christine]

I would be traumatized.

[Em]

Like, I'm gonna go make my bedroom the ap. US Government.

[Christine]

Yeah. Forget it. This is where I failed my final exam. Ah, Time to sleep. What did. Where would you sleep? Like, the gym feels, like, cool for a minute, and then it's too scary and loud and, like.

[Em]

Yeah. And too big.

[Christine]

Like, too big. Too big.

[Em]

I don't know. I like to think I'd pick, like, a little tiny nook and cranny. Like, in my high school, there was a room called the piano room.

[Christine]

Oh, I see. Like a. Like a hideaway. Kind of.

[Em]

A hideaway. And after school, when there was, like, music clubs, like, the piano would get used, but other than that, it was just kind of storing a bunch of different pianos.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

And me and my friends, we all took it over, and it was our regular hangout gossip space.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

So we had those, too.

[Christine]

There was also a piano there, weirdly.

[Em]

Yeah. And we also had another room that I. I could see my. I think because I need to feel cozy and, like, kind of sensory shut in. We had a room that was literally a Harry Potter closet. They. Can I help you?

[Christine]

The Kong just appeared over your shoulder like a haunting. And then a pot, then a paw. I mean, this is. This is like a horror film.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

The way just one paw kind of climbs into the frame.

[Em]

It's kind of like how a little German girl would appear from under a.

[Christine]

Desk and her peanut butter treat would just roll.

[Em]

What was I saying? Oh, we had a literal Harry Potter room that we. We ran out of space at the school that they started making anything a classroom. And you literally had to go under the stairs to take a class and.

[Christine]

Oh, cool.

[Em]

I had, like, three classes in there that was really fun.

[Christine]

We had crypts because we had nuns buried under the chapel. And so there were these, like, tombs.

[Em]

Very cool.

[Christine]

But you could only go in there unless you're on a tour or when you were on a tour. And so we weren't allowed down there. But of course, I found my way.

[Em]

Yeah, I guarantee you did. Anyway, so I just wanted to know what your. What room you would pick them.

[Christine]

I would sleep in the tomb. The catacombs, actually.

[Em]

Yeah, that. And you would wake up. Your alarm sound would go.

[Christine]

No, it would go like, all praise.

[Em]

How do you solve a problem like, Maria, help. So anyway, eventually they're living in this place, and a woman knocks on their door. And she's a psychic, and her name's Jackie. Jackie. And Jackie asks if she can come in. Not to be, like, creepy or anything, but she was like, I was driving by, and every time I drive by, there happens to be a little girl in your window. And she's waving at me, and I'm.

[Christine]

Just here to say hi.

[Em]

She. Yeah, I don't think she knew the history originally of the building, because for her, I mean, she must have. It looks like a school. So I guess, you know, me too.

[Christine]

I'm not even doing anything with my thumb right now. Why is it. I mean, it's correct. Thumbs down. Indeed. But, like, I didn't even move. My hand's not even in the picture.

[Em]

Well, she. She's like, there's this little girl here, and I gotta go do something. I gotta help her see the light and let her.

[Christine]

Let her be something.

[Em]

So she offers to look around, and Nancy and her sister show her the house. And when they get to one room, Jackie the psychic goes in and she's like, oh, the little girl's here. And then does this whole, like, oh, do you see the light? You need to go towards the light. And as she's having this conversation, Nancy's sister sees a little girl skipping down the hallway.

[Christine]

She's like, this light.

[Em]

And they later played back a recorder that they were using at the same moment. And right when Nancy's sister saw a girl skipping down the hall, you can hear a little girl giggling.

[Christine]

Oh, no.

[Em]

So Jackie tells Nancy that she needs to start. Let Jackie the psychic, tells the homeowner, nancy, you should start letting people come and do investigations and look around and, like. Like, really lean into this. Especially if you're trying to restore this place. It could be really good money. So that's how Nancy and her husband started saving up for restorations. They were charging for tours and all that. And keep in mind, they live in the building. So during investigations that people are charging for, they would just hunker down in their bedroom and just stay quiet.

[Christine]

Oh, so they'd be like, upstairs, like, oh, just please don't make them too mad. We're trying to sleep up here.

[Em]

Yes. So one paranormal investigator who was really connected to the house. I think he was a tour guide there for a second too. His name was jd and he really wanted to help restore the building and came up with this idea for, like, leaning into, like, the school theme and created, like, a spooky prom idea.

[Christine]

Oh, that's fun.

[Em]

And so they used to host spooky themed proms during this when it was Nancy's house, they end up selling it. Fun fact. But during this era, they have this prom event where it starts as a prom, and when midnight hits, it becomes an overnight lockdown and investigating.

[Christine]

Okay. That is my dream life. That is my dream.

[Em]

So a lot of people have investigated here. A lot of people have toured here. Some of my favorite people that have been here, I wanted to give a shout out to One of them was Stephen Lachance, who was the main character of the story I covered in episode 325. He was the union screaming house. The house just kept screaming, oh, my God.

[Christine]

Why do I remember that name? It's like it. I remember it.

[Em]

That was a creepy one. Another one is Dakota of Zach Baggins fame.

[Christine]

Oh, I remember that guy. Yeah.

[Em]

Her previous Zach Bacon's fame. I think they have beef with each other now and then. This is a random one, but it was.

[Christine]

Oh, did you see beef with Zach Bacon? Did you see Nick Groff's April Fool's post?

[Em]

No.

[Christine]

He posted like, I'm returning to ghost adventures and I'm bringing my wife with me and everyone.

[Em]

Evil, Evil.

[Christine]

So funny. I was like. I was like, that's a good prank. Pretend your beef with Zach is over. Just kidding. I still fudgeing hate him.

[Em]

It's actually hilarious, given, like, the fact that Zach is just trying to be like. Like, like have a normal life right now with all the Aaron stuff going on.

[Christine]

Yeah, it was kind of rough. Although not really because Zach also posted. Did you see he and Holly broke up? I guess. Or maybe that was also.

[Em]

They broke up a long time ago.

[Christine]

Yeah, they broke up again. This what Reddit told me that broke up again. But again. But then he posted like, she said yes, and it was some random girl and everyone freaked the out. But it was April Fools.

[Em]

Oh, really?

[Christine]

He said, like she said yes. And, like, posted a girl with a ring. So even though he has. He is in a weird time with Aaron, wanted to do a funny joke about how he's getting married.

[Em]

I was gonna say, is everyone just trying to, like.

[Christine]

Is everyone just pretending, like, direct.

[Em]

Redirect the. The Aaron drama somewhere else?

[Christine]

Like, to. Yeah. It feels kind of like too soon to joke about getting married. But, you know, what do I know?

[Em]

What do you know?

[Christine]

Not much. Much.

[Em]

Especially when, like, I think she. I don't know how they ended. I would love if I could sit down with her for 30 minutes. I wouldn't even ask a single thing. Like, you. Yeah, Yeah. I wouldn't ask her a single thing about Hugh Hefner. I would ask her a million things about Zach Biggins.

[Christine]

Well, yeah, yeah, yeah. Certainly that would be the. The juice. The Juice. God help.

[Em]

So one of the other people that I thought was really interesting that's come here was Corey Taylor from Slipknot.

[Christine]

Whoa.

[Em]

Who apparently had his own experiences there, but he was written about in every article about. They were like, in Slipknot's been here. And I'm like, okay.

[Christine]

Like, we're probably like, the only people who are not in the Venn diagram of, like, ghost hunter lover. Paranormal lovers.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

In middle America. Slipknot lovers. It's probably a circle, and we're probably the only two people on the outside. I don't know if that's true, but it feels like maybe that's a big crossover over.

[Em]

Well, fun fact. Slipknot's been there. Yeah. And the school even has a Facebook group called, like, the evidence page, where people can just post their evidence. A lot of shows have been here somehow. Not ghost adventures, but my ghost story. Ghost stalkers, your favorite kindred spirits, has been there. And then you've heard of the YouTubers Sam and Colby, right?

[Christine]

Yes, I have. And I've watched some of their ghost stuff, and I'm like, you people are out of your mind.

[Em]

Yeah. So they will get to them in a second. But it's. It's also all over YouTube. I want you to know that I watched like 20 investigations footage of this place. Like, it's everywhere. You just go page after page for.

[Christine]

This school, and people will just put post stuff. Okay.

[Em]

I will say I mentioned this earlier, but Nancy and Jim eventually ended up selling the school. And I will get back to that later. But that's where you need to. That's all you need to know for now. So.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Em]

Nancy and Jim sell the school, so this has to be. I think it was 2019 that they sold it, I think.

[Christine]

2019 or.

[Em]

No, 20. No, it was like. It was like maybe two years ago. So, yeah, it ends up being. Becoming like just a space that's being used for investigations.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Em]

So as for hauntings, one thing that's super creepy about it is it really does look abandoned. There's like, the walls are decrepit, but there's, like, messages all over the chalkboards from investigators. There's homework in the desks. There's coats in the lockers like the original chairs and decorations are in the school.

[Christine]

There's a little German girl under the desk.

[Em]

She's just humming her lullabies and she wants to be left alone.

[Christine]

Leave her alone. She has a sinus infection, except she's faking it, but it's fine.

[Em]

So for the sake of trying to be concise with it, because I. Otherwise, I mean, I watched so much footage. I could give you examples of each of these, but I'm just going to say them quick. People here. That's. That's one category. People here at the schoolhouse, when they're investigating, walking through the rooms near you, above you and below you, just footsteps everywhere.

[Christine]

It's bad.

[Em]

People hear conversations in off rooms. They hear music playing. They've heard old radio broadcasts.

[Christine]

Oh, I love that. That's cool.

[Em]

And they've even gone into rooms and then found an old radio in there that was unplugged. Isn't that crazy?

[Christine]

That's cool. And it's like, what is that radio? It reminds me of Brave Little Toaster, you know, he's like, I just want one last hurrah.

[Em]

That's right. He's just.

[Christine]

He's just. One cigar. One more cigar.

[Em]

One more. Yeah. People hear laughing. They hear heavy breathing. They hear whispering, whistling, intelligent taps and knocks. That's a huge one here. It's like, oh, can you knock four times? And then it does. Slamming doors, slamming lockers, basketballs from the gym, bouncing people here, all of those.

[Christine]

In a dark building that used to be a school is so scary.

[Em]

And shoes squeaking in the gym.

[Christine]

Like, that's when. When you asked earlier, where would you sleep? Like, my first thought of the gym was like, that squeaky sound and not knowing what. Where it's coming from. Like, yeah, that would scare the absolute out of me.

[Em]

People hear the bell ringing. Terrifying.

[Christine]

Oh, that's so cool.

[Em]

But I hope it's like a quiet version. Can you imagine if it's dead silent in the middle of the night and then you share. Oh, I would Just lose my mind.

[Christine]

I mean, hopefully it is that loud because that would make really good content for somebody like Jack and Colby.

[Em]

Yeah. People hear shuffling, dragging, hissing in one of the bathrooms.

[Christine]

That's just that girl that everybody had in their class who pretended to be like an animal.

[Em]

Like a snake.

[Christine]

Yeah, a snake or a wolf or something. Yeah.

[Em]

Oh, wolf girl. Of course.

[Christine]

Yeah, girl.

[Em]

Here's my least favorite one is that you can hear children singing. Like choir music.

[Christine]

That's bad. That's not crossbones, the recorder. Just wrong notes over and over again. I mean, talk about torture chamber.

[Em]

So that's what people hear. That's at least the majority of what people hear. People see, that's a whole other category. A kid walking through the gym. No, thanks.

[Christine]

No.

[Em]

They also see another kid walking out of a closet in room 206. 206 or 205, I forget which one. It's called Mrs. Martin's room.

[Christine]

Whoa.

[Em]

And it's one of the most haunted rooms.

[Christine]

She's like, did she do lock them in the closet? This place sounds scary.

[Em]

Apparently, if you say her name in there, a bunch of machines will go off.

[Christine]

So it's like bloody Mary.

[Em]

But Mrs. Martin, imagine being a teacher and you're alive and you barely get.

[Christine]

Any fucking money and any respect and any.

[Em]

Yeah, like that. Like, tip of the iceberg is you don't get enough of anything you deserve. And then imagine dying and 100 years later you're still teaching. There, there. Like, except you're just no money.

[Christine]

Right. And you don't get any say. Everybody's just bothering you constantly.

[Em]

And even worse than children, not like appreciating what you do now. It's just a bunch of like, grown people screaming at you now.

[Christine]

It's just in your own slipknot. Like, what did you do to deserve this? What did she do to deserve?

[Em]

Poor Ms. Martin. Someone give her her flowers. So another thing that people see is a nine foot tall shadow figure. A man walking through the halls.

[Christine]

I don't think so.

[Em]

People see shadow figures leaving the principal's office, including one very notorious shadow figure known as the principal. And he is a very foreboding character.

[Christine]

Ew. But he's not the nine foot tall one, is he? Because that's even worse.

[Em]

Like, I don't think so. I don't know.

[Christine]

I say it's worse, but maybe it's not worse. Maybe it's worse to have a nine foot shadow and the principal. Principal.

[Em]

Yeah. Well, apparently a lot of people see or hear the principal when they're acting up, but it's like he's still clocking, like, behavior, and he's a disciplinarian. Yeah. There are other shadow figures that peek around corners at you of. Yeah, of all.

[Christine]

Of all heights.

[Em]

If there's kids and adults, there are shadow figures that get right up in your face. People have said that they, like, just turn and look to their left, and there's just a face in their face. People have literally seen locker doors swinging, like, moving by themselves. The janitor has seen the gym lights turn on by themselves, even after he just turned them off. And then I have two clips I want to show you because I think both of them are really cool. So I'm going to send you one first. Let me go find where I left this. They're both very quick. Otherwise I would not do this to you. So do it.

[Christine]

I want to watch.

[Em]

Here's the first one. A lot of people say that because it was a gym, like, a lot of balls roll around and stuff. So one common thing that investigators have started doing is leaving some sort of, like, kickball or soccer ball or whatever on a tripod and then saying, like, can you knock the tripod over so the ball will roll off?

[Christine]

Ooh, that's kind of fun.

[Em]

So here's a video of that. You shake that tripod, make that soccer ball fall off. A lot of time trying to get that damn thing.

[Christine]

That's crazy. That's.

[Em]

Isn't that crazy?

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

Okay, so we will play that for people, obviously, but for those who are not watching YouTube or able to get to a computer, someone literally says, can you knock the ball over? And the ball immediately falls over, like, within second.

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah.

[Em]

So here is the other one I'm going to show you and go to the 33 minute mark. I'll tell you beforehand. This is a group called Paranormal quest on YouTube, and they were hanging out in the gym. They literally. They're just, like, rolling around, playing with the ball or talking about basketball. And then they get an EVP saying, do you want to play?

[Christine]

Whoa.

[Em]

And then this is. Sorry, no, go ahead, go ahead.

[Christine]

Well, I was just going to ask, is this one we can play the audio in the episode or is this only video?

[Em]

Well, the thing I'm going to show you is visual. Oh, I'm setting you up because I'm just telling you now.

[Christine]

Oh, that's just before the clip. Okay, got it.

[Em]

Leading up to this clip, they got an EVP of someone saying, do you want to play? And I will say after this clip, they start Bouncing the basketball. And they got an EVP saying, share it. Like, share the ball.

[Christine]

Pass. Pass the ball.

[Em]

Pass the basketball.

[Christine]

Yeah. Not to be, because I don't know how to play.

[Em]

This is go to the 33 minute mark and they're in the gym here. I tell you what, I'll roll it to you and then you can push it back. Now push it back. Can you push it back? Did you see that? Did it move? It moved. The camera was pointed right at it, man. So it totally just moved.

[Christine]

Dude.

[Em]

Isn't that weird? So for those who didn't get.

[Christine]

That's freaky.

[Em]

For the people who didn't see, they're. They literally, it's a basketball just sitting still on the gym floor and they say, can you roll it? And it immediately starts rolling by itself.

[Christine]

It kind of like wobbles, though. And it's almost like it doesn't even roll. Like, it doesn't go anywhere. It just like starts to wobble, which almost freaks me out more because it's. It's like. I wonder if it just can't get the strength to do that or if it's just like.

[Em]

Oh, what I thought was that it's able to hold it and like roll it around and like maybe that and keep it from moving.

[Christine]

It just looked like less of a. Like, it looked like, I don't know, like if I were a ghost. I think it would be more impressive to like kick something or like, you.

[Em]

Know, like kick it into your face or some. Or like something three pointer. Are you kidding me?

[Christine]

But like, the way that it just kind of wiggles, it's almost like. Like, maybe. I don't know.

[Em]

Yeah, I don't know. But anyway, so I thought those were two really cool visual ones. And what people have also experienced here is they've had doors slam right into them. They've had things thrown at them. They've had equipment thrown through the building. They can smell cigarettes, which since it was the 20s, I like to think it's the kids that were smoking.

[Christine]

They have a bathroom now, so they know they can sit in the stall and smoke a cigarette. Yeah.

[Em]

A bunch of machines constantly are responding intelligently. I mean, every machine that you and I have ever used has worked here. The flashlight game where it turns on and off intelligently has happened. Like, literally. They'll say on the count of five, and on five, the flashlight will turn off.

[Christine]

Yeah, it feels very. In both of these clips too. Like, very timely. Like, very, very quick to respond. Very good students, you know, like very.

[Em]

Oh, yeah, they're the.

[Christine]

They're like throwing across some of the. Maybe some of them are throwing across the room. Some of them are following the rules, you know, and there's know a little.

[Em]

Bit of everyone for everyone.

[Christine]

Yeah. Someone smoking a cigarette in the bathroom. Kids of all kinds.

[Em]

There is. There's been many successful estus methods here. People have also felt hands on their back. Not just like someone was pushing you, but have just felt hands on their back. People have been shoved. People have been grabbed and scratched. One guy had his head pushed into the coat hooks.

[Christine]

Oh, God.

[Em]

Another one was shoved into a wall. Another one was pushed during a Ouija board session while the board was spelling get out. Out.

[Christine]

Ew.

[Em]

Machines will glitch and turn themselves off or they'll refuse to do their job. They'll claim there's an error even though the machine shouldn't be malfunctioning. And then it works totally fine once you've left. There's a tall shadow man. Not the nine foot one, but there's another one.

[Christine]

Great.

[Em]

And apparently he's around like six feet because there was a caretaker at one point living here who worked for Nancy and Jim. And he described the tall shadow man. He was like, he's tall. He's about my build. He respects you if you respect him. Oh, and a lot of people have come through here and said that the shadow man is actually future me when I die, still watching over the building.

[Christine]

What the what? Whoa, whoa, whoa.

[Em]

Which is wild because, you know, that's my theory about that is literally, you've.

[Christine]

Said this before, like, to the word.

[Em]

And he did say. He was like, I don't know if it's me though, because I have seen him with my own eyes and he has red eyes and. And also whenever I look at him, I lose my hearing in the moment. And also he has flown straight up into the ceiling and then shape shifted into an old man with jowls and then disappeared.

[Christine]

You know, what do I know? It could be me. I mean, holy.

[Em]

And then he said, but then again, I can see myself messing with myself.

[Christine]

Oops. This guy, he's turning this into. He needs to stop because it feels like he's getting too meta with it and it's gonna start, like, circling in on itself. Like he knows that future him is going to prank him. But now, oh, my God.

[Em]

Now it's like, who. Who came first? Chicken or the egg?

[Christine]

It's like you're like messing with the space time continuum. And of course he is, because I can tell just by the way he talks that this is exactly who it is. I. No, I've never. That's amazing. That's really incredible.

[Em]

My dream is to mess with the space time continuum. If I die, please know that's where I'm going.

[Christine]

I. Trust me. I'm already bracing myself.

[Em]

Even if the door is locked, and that's like an employees only space of the. Stop cracking in, please.

[Christine]

Yeah, that. As if that's ever stopped you. I'll just go to, like, a schoolhouse where I know you'll be like an abandoned school.

[Em]

So I would be barging around.

[Christine]

Yeah. Not knowing how to kick a basketball or. I don't know. You know what? It reminded me of the ball, though. Sorry. I just thought of it. I think maybe that's why it stuck in my head is like, yesterday I took Leona to soccer class. I say that loosely, but I took her to soccer. And I like how soccer class and.

[Em]

Not like, soccer practice.

[Christine]

Soccer. Okay. That's all. That's my fault. I don't know what it's called. It's soccer practice. There you go. But there is no, like, game, you know, there's no team. So it's sort of like maybe it is just a class. I don't know. But they are doing. They're learning control where you, like, put your foot on the ball. And because they're so little, it's, like, hard. So they're always kind of have one foot on the soccer ball and they're kind of wobbling. And I feel like that's how that ball moved. Like.

[Em]

That's such a good point. It looks like a little kid just learned. Learning.

[Christine]

Yeah, like trying to use it or trying to pick it up. I don't know. That's just what made me think, wow. Sorry. Total side note. That was actually past me playing.

[Em]

That was actually soccer. That was future Leona, when she's a ghost telling us.

[Christine]

Yeah. Teaching us how to play 100. Like, teaching us control. Yeah.

[Em]

I. Isn't it wild that in a world of the space time continuum being altered and like, our. Our future ghosts are already watching out for us, that you and Leona are already ghosts laughing together while watching the two of you now.

[Christine]

It really is a comfort, I think.

[Em]

I think so.

[Christine]

Some people find it really scary. I find it cool and, like, kind of comforting.

[Em]

I think it's dope.

[Christine]

Yeah, it's dope. I agree.

[Em]

Okay. So some of the EVPs, people have heard. They've heard kids singing. People have heard many voices talking to them when asked to stay or leave. They've gotten an EVP saying, leave, leave.

[Christine]

That's the thing. That poor M. I get so ticked off when we're doing an investigation. Em's like, do you want us to leave? And we're. We've been there an hour. And I'm like, what in the. We say, oh, we'll respect you. And then we walk in and we're like, do you want us to leave? And it's like, yeah, that's fair. Too bad. I'm like, that feels like the most.

[Em]

Zach Baggins thing I know.

[Christine]

Like, you can't ask that. Because if they say leave, then what now we're really awkward position here.

[Em]

Oopsies.

[Christine]

Unless we're trying to rile them up. Which again, yeah, it does work.

[Em]

I. I guess for that when people have pointed at the basketball hoop and they've gone, what is that? They'll. An EVP has said, score.

[Christine]

Ooh, that's cool.

[Em]

When using new equipment and saying like, oh, this is a new piece we haven't used before. An EVP will say. Or an EVP has said, it's technology.

[Christine]

It's the future. With like a little the race reading rainbow. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Em]

One guy said he had the chills. And then there was an EVP that said, behind you, E. When they asked, what do you do here? They got an EVP saying, read a.

[Christine]

Smoke cigarettes, read a book.

[Em]

Yeah. When people have asked, why are you still here? They've got an EVP work to do.

[Christine]

A.

[Em]

Which I love. That's the most type a ghost I've ever seen. It's like, I still have to finish my pop quiz, actually.

[Christine]

And it's like, you're in eighth grade. Like, go home and be a child. Like, you don't you know you'll be in college someday. And then you can focus on your homework.

[Em]

When one person was saying like, I think it used to be K through 12, they said, I think it used to be K through. And then they got an EVP saying 12.

[Christine]

Weird.

[Em]

When 1. When 1 woman went into the bathroom, they got an EVP of a little girl saying, she's in the bathroom.

[Christine]

Oh, that feels like you're trapped in there now. Sorry.

[Em]

And then they've got an EVP of someone saying, you, of course. And when asked, okay, so here's. Let me see if I can find this clip because this is the last clip I have for you. They found a chair facing a wall. One of one of the investigative teams.

[Christine]

A little dunce chair.

[Em]

Well, so then they said, oh, did you ever get in trouble. And you had to, like, sit in this chair. And then they got an EVP of a voice saying, or worse.

[Christine]

Oh, gosh.

[Em]

And that's. You can click that and it's 424. 20. 20.

[Christine]

Okay, okay, okay. Here we go.

[Em]

That's the clearest EVP that we've ever got out of this place. The horwurs.

[Christine]

Anybody get in trouble in here and have to. Have to face the wall, get put on timeout. Have to face the wall, get put on timeout. Or worse. Oh, okay. My stomach just twisted up like that. That got me. Or worse. Got me.

[Em]

Isn't that weird? It's very clear.

[Christine]

It's really freaky. Freaky.

[Em]

It's worse.

[Christine]

And it's like, clearly a child. Or worse.

[Em]

Yeah. So one of the reasons that this kid might have said or worse is because there is a rumor that the principal, who's known to be a very foreboding character, was abusing the kids here.

[Christine]

Oh, no.

[Em]

It's also thought that it. Maybe it was the principal and. Or the janitor. And it said that if it was happening, it happened in either the storage closet or the principal's office. Hence janitor, senator, or the principal.

[Christine]

Are we talking sexual abuse?

[Em]

I think so. I don't. They didn't say. They just said abuse.

[Christine]

Okay. Oh.

[Em]

It's thought that this would happen in either the storage closet or the principal's office because those are now the two most active, dark and creepy rooms that are often said to be portals, of course.

[Christine]

Oh, God.

[Em]

In the storage room, people feel a lot of rage. They get anxiety attacks and they cry for no reason. And in the principal's office, people most often see a shadow man there and they feel like they're in trouble. Oh, and it's gonna be a rough.

[Christine]

Feeling to feel as a grown up, like I feel like I'm in trouble. That's gonna be, like, such an unsettling feeling.

[Em]

And Nancy has even been quoted saying about the principal, I don't think he hesitates to be aggressive.

[Christine]

Oh, yeah.

[Em]

No, thank you.

[Christine]

No, thanks. Thanks.

[Em]

Another room with the same energy and has also been said to maybe be a portal is the boiler room, where people have actually been physically attacked by something.

[Christine]

Nothing good happens in the boiler room as far as I'm concerned.

[Em]

It's next to the gym, which is why the gym is also said to be so active. But in the boiler room, people have been scratched. Like, pushed, shoved. They hear, like, the meaner EVPs, things like that. So before we go, I wanted to tell you about. About the three episodes I watched on this, they're all, I think, pretty quick, but there's a show called Ghost Stalkers. And one of the investigators, his name is Chad. And so he said, my name's Chad. What's yours? And then an EVP said, God damn it, Chad.

[Christine]

It was you and me in the future. Yeah.

[Em]

Chad was also in the auditorium and he plays a recorder for them as, like a show. I see.

[Christine]

I knew that would be a hit.

[Em]

And he gets intelligent responses from that. He does a play on the stage and when he says, let's play together, then he hears footsteps outside. They have freezing cold blasts. Intelligent tapping. When asked, they see an apparition by the principal's office that apparently looked like two kids standing on top of each other.

[Christine]

Oh, I hate. Maybe what if that's the nine foot shadow figure? It's just two kids in a trench coat.

[Em]

Maybe they. He tried to ignore it, but I guess that same figure kept showing up throughout the night. Night. And they even said this is like the creepiest part of that show. Ghost Stalkers. Is that what it was?

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

Is that he kept trying to do digital recorder EVP sessions and he realized that nothing was coming through, including his own voice wasn't being recorded. Oh, no. So he tries to do an EVP session and the digital recorder doesn't pick up on anything, including his own voice. And then when he leaves the building, he tries outside of the building and his voice is recording.

[Christine]

No, I don't like that.

[Em]

I obviously have to mention kindred spirits.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

Because I know how much you love them. I guess during this they were saying, like, oh, lately there's been a darker entity around, and we can't figure out what it is. The caretaker was saying, like, there's this new shadow figure, but he's so big that he, quote, is hunched over because the ceiling is too low.

[Christine]

I. I think I vaguely remember this episode, but now I really want to go rewatch it because that's creepy.

[Em]

He says, do you want to. They ask, do you want to step out and let us see you? Then they hear footsteps. They ask about the new shadow figure. And then they're. They hear their equipment get thrown around like something's mad at them. So when they say, do you not want to talk about that? They get an EVP that says no. They do a very eerie Estes method where after taking those context clues and researching the area, they realize that there's this guy, Terry, who was murdered not too far the school. And it was like the Only unsolved crime in the area.

[Christine]

Oh.

[Em]

So they think maybe his energy is super aggressive after being murdered.

[Christine]

Ooh.

[Em]

But they have an EVP session right after that, and they ask, is there someone here you don't want to talk in front of? Or someone you don't trust? And they get an EVP that says Terry.

[Christine]

Yuck.

[Em]

Then they bring in your man of the day.

[Christine]

I knew he was in this episode. I remember. I remember so vividly. But isn't he the best? Best.

[Em]

He's the best. He's the best. As soon as he walks in, he goes, you've got a war going on in this building.

[Christine]

Yes. And then he has his little scarf, and you're like, oh, my God, shit's about to go down.

[Em]

He didn't pick up on anything specific, except he heard the words get the out in his head.

[Christine]

Cool.

[Em]

And he's. They. When they start explaining Terry to him, he actually interrupts them and looks freaked out. And he's like, is he the one showing himself as huge? Like, big and threatening? Like, overpoweringly huge? Huge, because. And then as he's saying that to, like, show what he's talking about, Chip Coffee stands up and hunches over.

[Christine]

No, like, they showed. Oh, forget it. See, this is what I mean. Oh.

[Em]

Then they end up doing this Estes method, which I don't even know if you want me to get into that.

[Christine]

It.

[Em]

It's sure very creepy. Very creepy.

[Christine]

I mean, listen, then. Yeah, go for it. I don't want to let all of me will just hold you back.

[Em]

So they do an estimate where actually, Chip Coffee is part of the Estes method.

[Christine]

Oh, fun.

[Em]

And they have the woman, Amy, and then they have Chip separately doing an Estes method in the same room.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Em]

And then Adam is the one asking them questions. And it sounds like.

[Christine]

Oh, yeah, okay, I see what you're saying.

[Em]

It sounds like Amy is talking to. Is talking to Terry. And then Chip Coffee's talking to the kids. Kids.

[Christine]

Amy's talking to Terry. Oh, okay. I got it. Oh, weird. Okay. Creepy.

[Em]

So they. These are the things that they hear with you. Hello. Good evening. When they say, tell me your name, he says, move over. When Adam asked, do you know that you're affecting other spirits here? Then they both hear laughing, and they ask this method. When they say, try to. Can you stop doing that and stop affecting people? They hear, I don't want to. We don't want to. Get out of here. He's coming. It's him. It's true. Hide.

[Christine]

Oh, it's true hide.

[Em]

When they say leave Amy. When Adam says leave Amy alone, they hear, get bent. And then he says, I'm getting stronger. I like it here. Then he hears laughter. You're the problem. Go away. I mean, it's. It's just very, very creepy.

[Christine]

So aggressive.

[Em]

Very aggressive. So please go watch that. I'm. I mean, I'm not doing it. I don't want to just. It'll take me forever to tell the whole thing, but it's very terrible.

[Christine]

It's worth a watch even just to see Chip, like, swoop in. Because really he is. He is a just a gem. I still have my coffee mug that someone mailed me and I. And I. I love to drink out of that thing. My Chip coffee. Coffee mug.

[Em]

Okay, well, the last thing I have to say is that Sam and Colby went here. For those who don't know, Sam and Colby are like these huge youtuber tick tock investigator influencers. They're. I feel like they're the next generation Zach Bagans.

[Christine]

They're like gen Zers. Right? Like, they're like that audience, at least.

[Em]

Yeah, there's. They're definitely not. I mean, they're not my audience. Like, I've heard about them a million times, but this episode was the first one of theirs I've watched because I.

[Christine]

I've watched one for a place that you and I. I investigated.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

And I will tell you after. And it was ridiculous. And they faked a bunch of.

[Em]

It's very. I mean, they're certainly Gen Z Tik Tok influencers. And I will say they have the same business acumen as Zach Bagan. So I'm not like, harshly.

[Christine]

They're doing things right. No, they're.

[Em]

I mean, they have millions and millions of followers.

[Christine]

Got a good formula going. Yeah.

[Em]

But it's definitely not like, I think I'm a little. A little too old for their audience.

[Christine]

Yeah, me too.

[Em]

So for me, they, like, if anyone knows what I'm talking about on Tick Tock, like, how there's like those people who start videos and they're just like screaming information at you. It's like, why are you so loud? Like, back up. Like, it's. They kind of have that vibe for me.

[Christine]

Yeah. They're really, really heightened energy wise. And everything's like, whoa, bro. I mean, it's very Zach Bagans, but, like, totally different. Yeah, I totally know what you mean now. Yeah.

[Em]

But anyway, so they have a YouTube show where they go ghost hunting. And there are so many videos on their own account about this school. But there are so many YouTube accounts that like I think wannabe Sam and Colby, that I've also been here. That. And they're all, they all felt like the same video. And all of them were like an hour and a half long video. Some of them were even calling themselves like for our schoolhouse the movie. And I'm like, I'm not gonna sit here and watch the movie. I'm not gonna sit here and watch the movie of nine different grown Gen Z boys that I don't care about.

[Christine]

20 year old, 19 year old kids.

[Em]

So at some point I could not get through a lot of them. I did watch like 20 videos, but I watched the ones that weren't an hour and a half long.

[Christine]

Listen, that's a lot. That sounds like a lot.

[Em]

Sam and Colby alone, I only watched one of their videos on this, which I found out was the first of a three part series.

[Christine]

Jesus.

[Em]

And each of them were at minimum an hour long.

[Christine]

Jeez. Oh.

[Em]

So I was like, I'm not doing it. I'm sorry. I just. And also, not only that, but again, they're not my vibe. And so I did not want to watch. I think it was a total of like 3, 4, 5 hours of gen Z boys screaming. Nothing.

[Christine]

They're just screaming, oh my God. It's like. Yeah, it's, it's, it's just. You need a certain level of youthful bandwidth that we don't have anymore. I don't have it.

[Em]

So to bring it all back. The reason why they made this trilogy, this like four hour long saga of them going to the far schoolhouse is because Allah Mini Zach Bagans. They bought the school from Nancy and no, they didn't. For $260,000.

[Christine]

You are kidding with me right now.

[Em]

And so to promote their big purchase, they filmed three videos of the.

[Christine]

You are kidding.

[Em]

They had a week long lockdown investigation. As soon as they bought it, like they got the keys and locked down that night and stayed for a whole week.

[Christine]

And it's like, why do we joke about doing stuff like that instead of doing it? It makes me mad at me. It makes me mad at us. Like, why are we doing fun stuff like that?

[Em]

What house should we buy one in?

[Christine]

Galena?

[Em]

Oh, okay.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

It doesn't have to be haunted either. Let's just go.

[Christine]

Well, it'll be haunted. We'll make sure. We'll walk around till we find one that's haunted.

[Em]

Sure.

[Christine]

We wouldn't buy a house wasn't haunted together. There's no way.

[Em]

I think a lot of People were talking about us buying the conjuring house a while ago, remember?

[Christine]

I remember that. Yeah. And. And I feel like that would have worked too. It's just. I feel more. I. It's too, like, it's too mainstream for me, you know, I want something like, really random with like, really random ghosts, like an old school house or something.

[Em]

Really? Because I think financially it's a really smart move of like, talk about supplemental income is like just charge people towards investigations at an abandoned house. House.

[Christine]

Yeah, I know, but we could do that. And also. I don't know. I don't know.

[Em]

I don't know. Leave your thoughts in the comments. What venture should we get into next?

[Christine]

Yeah. Thumbs up, like. And subscribe.

[Em]

Yeah. So to promote their big purchase, they, like, they did this whole. We're gonna film every single second of the whole week.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

And they filmed three videos. They put out the full trilogy. And that, my friend, was called Hell Week.

[Christine]

Oh, I just came from Hell Week. Oh, my God. It's a Colby. And what are they called?

[Em]

Sam and Colby.

[Christine]

Okay, okay, I get it.

[Em]

So I already said this, but I only watched the first of the three videos. And I'm just gonna let you. I was gonna watch all three. I was gonna just do it, but I want you to know what I endured in the first one. And I don't mean that to. To sound. Well, you tell me how you feel.

[Christine]

I already. I already know how I feel because I've watched their videos on other places we've been to and gone. You are making this up.

[Em]

It's just. It's just so testosterone. Like, it's just not. And it's like young testosterone. It's like. Like their frontal lobes. I feel like. I feel like they could not fully define, you know, quite a lot about things. I don't know. They just. I don't know. I feel like we're in an older place, we're in a quieter place. It's not for me. And I just really can't stand testosterone. I really flee from it. So I did watch the first one, but immediately they. I could see where they were going. I get like the. The business mindset of, like, they brought in a bunch of spooky influencers to collaborate with and make a big deal out of it. I totally get that. One of the people they brought on was, I guess a psychic or she was a practitioner in some way. And she said. Said. Which I think was a good idea. She said, oh, well, since you're the new owners and you're. You Might be coming in a little hot because these ghosts have been here for a hundred years before you. Maybe you should show some respect to the ghosts by doing some sort of, like, you know, giving a moment of gratitude to them and, like, telling them that you're going to love the property the right way offers that they do, like, some sort of peace treaty ritual at a sacred tree. At a sacred tree. And I'm like, I didn't hear anything about a sacred tree.

[Christine]

Sacred tree. Okay. All right.

[Em]

That's where. I don't know. I'm gonna assume that this. This person knew what they were talking about, but I didn't hear about that anywhere else, so it felt kind of weird.

[Christine]

Did they go to a sacred tree?

[Em]

There was a secret tree, like, on the property.

[Christine]

So they. But did they go to it, like, film it and stuff?

[Em]

So they filmed this, like, ritual that they did where they, like, burned a bunch of tobacco and said, like, I hope. Hope that you know that we're gonna take care of the property. And I was like. It felt icky, despite maybe good intentions. And I was like, okay. Like, maybe they're trying and they've got the right spirit. But then the literal next scene is something really that just felt kind of like the antithesis of the.

[Christine]

What they do.

[Em]

So they call this whole week event Hell Week because they decided to do this bit where they were going to give each other challenges that they had to do throughout the week while investigating and staying overnight.

[Christine]

Right, okay, of course, of course. Sure.

[Em]

So during. So the surprise challenges they gave themselves on the property, Sam dared Colby to go investigate the boiler room, where everyone gets touched on his own hog tied with rope.

[Christine]

What the.

[Em]

So he could be whatever. Like, prey, Whatever. I don't know. And then Colby dared Sam to go dig his own grave in the ground. And what. And do an estus method in there, I guess, to be closer to the bodies in the graveyard. I don't know. But this is a quote. There's a quote. There's a quote from Colby. If the spirits don't want to come out of the ground and talk to us, then Sam can go in the ground to talk to them.

[Christine]

No.

[Em]

So it just. Right. Literally the scene right after they're doing a ritual at a sacred train's radar. Ping, ping.

[Christine]

There's somebody following in my footsteps.

[Em]

There's a reason people make fun of Zach Baggins. And maybe they're, like, of the Gen Z influencer mindset, where it's like, all attention is good. Attention. Attention.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

But, like, it as someone who, like, actively tries to, like, be respectfully.

[Christine]

Well, it works. Like, clearly people love it, you know, so they're doing it. They're doing what's working, I guess.

[Em]

Anyway, Zach Bacon's in the making, and that's why I could only watch one of the three. So there you go. That's the Farrar schoolhouse.

[Christine]

Wow.

[Em]

Finally.

[Christine]

What a tale and a half man that is. I. I don't know that we've done many haunted schools, so that you've covered many haunted schools.

[Em]

I don't think so either.

[Christine]

I've done a few colleges, but I feel like, like, younger schools are not as common.

[Em]

It's hard to find things with, like, enough meat. I mean, that one definitely had a lot of meat, but it also.

[Christine]

That was wild.

[Em]

It took a lot of watching a lot of YouTube.

[Christine]

So it sounds pretty traumatizing of an experience.

[Em]

Some of it was. So, anyway, thank you for putting through that with me. And also sidebar, thank you for dealing with me and the dog stuff.

[Christine]

I'm having a great time with your. Your dog.

[Em]

Okay, great.

[Christine]

Hey, are you like me and you've tried literally everything under the sun to try and just get, like, a little peace of mind or just like, stability for your soul? Well, don't worry. It's time for you to try what I have right here on my nightstand. This is. This is just happens to be. Here's my cornbread hemp. This is actually my new box. As you can tell, it's unopened because I have yet to finish the first one, but I'm getting close, so I re upped. I. I really do love cornbread hemp Blaze has gotten to it as well. Their CBD gummies are made to help you feel better, whether it's stress, discomfort, needing a little relaxation. I've been struggling with, like, a lot of tension, so it's. It's helped a lot.

[Em]

And they only use the best part of the hemp plant, the flower, for the purest and most potent cbd. So Christine is at her best and worst. No, she's at her best.

[Christine]

I'm feeling good.

[Em]

You know, she's feeling all daisy ways. Y. I don't know what the right word is, but. Yeah. You. You seem good. I like hanging out with you when you're using cornbread. Thank you.

[Christine]

Because I'm a better person and a better, better friend.

[Em]

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[Christine]

And that's why we drink. Listeners can save 30% on their first order just head to cornbread hemp.com drink and use code drink at checkout. That's cornbread hemp.com drink and Use code drink.

[Em]

As you know, I love me some mental health and I sure love my therapist, but unfortunately. I don't know if I told you this yet, Christine, but Jordan has left for maternity leave. So I. I need. I need me a filler for the next couple months.

[Christine]

A filler? Well, let me tell you what we are very proud to call Rula a new sponsor of ours. Rule is on a mission to make high quality mental health care from a licensed professional easy and affordable for everyone. Rule has got you covered. They take most major insurance plans and the average CO pay is only 15 per session. You can now get the quality care you need when you need it at a price you can afford. They have an expansive community of over10,000 therapists of 39 different faiths and religions, 80 different specialt modalities. 47 are black, indigenous or people of color. 97 of people find a provider who fits their unique preferences. So they really want to like match you with somebody that kind of gets you. So m, I know you're looking for a filler, but I don't think that's the right spot. I think I might be going for.

[Em]

I might actually just have two permanent therapists.

[Christine]

Yeah. Bye, Jordan. Sorry. You know.

[Em]

Thousands of trusted rulers to support them on their journey toward improved mental health and overall well being. Head on over to rula.com drink to get started today. After you sign up, they'll ask where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them that our show sent you.

[Christine]

Go to r u l a.com Drink and take the first step toward better mental health Today. You deserve quality care from someone who cares. All right, I have a pretty monumental case for you today. This is the story of Amber Hagerman, AKA the case that led to the institution of the Amber Alert.

[Em]

Ooh. Did you decide to do this because of last week?

[Christine]

Yes.

[Em]

Cool.

[Christine]

Well, basically Saoirse and I were like, oh, well that seems like an easy transition to the next topic. So it was sort of a, a kind of built in decision. It didn't take, I think me much brain power and then it just kind of happened. So credit to Saoirse for that. For that, I guess.

[Em]

Nice.

[Christine]

This is the Amber Hagerman story and it is a doozy. M and I'll be honest, I thought I knew the story pretty well and I, I didn't like blanket statement, did not know it. As well as I thought. So we're starting in 1995. Producer Pam Curry is preparing to shoot a documentary for WFFA News in Texas. And this documentary that she's producing is going to be about a single mother. This is like the concept that they've been. That they've pitched. A single mother receiving support from governmental assistance programs like either snap, you know, food stamps, welfare there. And according to a later interview, essentially they were looking for someone who, quote, fit the national profile, which was a single mom with two children. And they wanted to do this documentary to kind of show the challenge of living, like on government subsidy and, you know, to. To show life through a lens that was more empathetic than maybe people were used to seeing folks on welfare, that kind of thing. Trust.

[Em]

Sure.

[Christine]

So they were struggling to find. They had the concept, but they were struggling to find the subject of the documentary because, I mean, imagine someone being like, hey, you're impoverished and have trouble feeding your family. Do you want us to, like, film your day to day life and put it on tv?

[Em]

You know, that's a tough thing to ask a person. Yep, exactly.

[Christine]

So it's like really vulnerable spot to be in when you're already in a very vulnerable spot. And so they were struggling to find. To find a site subject for this docu series. And they got to the point where they were about to kind of give up the whole concept. And that's when they were introduced to a woman named Donna. She was a mother of two in her late 20s, and she was staying in a women's shelter in Arlington, Texas.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

So when Donna was a teenager, she went walking around her neighborhood with friends and ran into who would become Amber's father, Richard. And he was hanging out in a yard. The two of them started talking. One thing led to another, and at 18, she was pregnant. Pregnant and terrified. But as soon as Amber was born, she fell absolutely in love with her. And four years later, her younger son Ricky was born. So Amber had a younger brother named Ricky.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

When the children were young, though, their father started drinking excessively. And although Donna said he never physically abused the children, he was, quote, really mean when he was drinking. And it was a very, very dangerous environment. Neighbors often called the police over fighting in the house, and especially with the kids around, you know, it was concerning. And one day the authorities told Donna that if they had to come by again, they would have to take the kids out of the home for their own protection. And, I mean, we see this kind of thing in stories still to this day. If not more so. So Donna didn't hesitate at first chance. She packed up the kids and left. But she knew Richard was going to come after her, and so she couldn't go to her own parents house. She knew that he would go there and find her. So for a few days, they lived in her car. Then they moved into the women's shelter for six weeks. And that's where Donna received assistance applying to social benefits, securing an apartment. And when the documentarians came by and were introduced to Donna, that's when they were like, hey, this might be the perfect match. Donna was a little uncertain about putting her life on display, but ultimately, she felt like this would be an empowering move and, like a way to show other women how to get through this kind of thing.

[Em]

Sure, that makes sense.

[Christine]

Yeah. And I thought that was just a really cool way to look at it, that it would. It would help other people in. In the same situation, especially if they felt isolated. So Donna and the kids settled into this apartment that the shelter helped them find, and. And they moved in. They had several months before filming for this documentary actually began. And for a while, anytime somebody knocked on the door, they were on edge, right? Because they're thinking, richard's found us. And, yeah, he's. He's gonna.

[Em]

I can't imagine, like, on top. It's like, oh, well, you know. Yeah, no, just the stress. Just the stress.

[Christine]

The stress like that hyper vigilance that takes so long to go away, you know, if it ever does. And. Yeah, yeah. And so Donna tried to make her kids feel secure financially. But Amber, as she's growing up, she knows they're struggling because Amber's school, for example, has, like, a $3 skate night, and she can't participate because her mom can't afford it. And I know. And it's tough because her mom's trying, of course, her hardest to not have this pressure fall on the children. But Amber begins worrying a lot and takes on a lot of this anxiety. But Donna does her best to reassure her kids would not be homeless again. They would always have food to eat. It's just. It's just. It's really sad.

[Em]

That's tough. That's really tough.

[Christine]

So Donna prioritized, giving Amber and Ricky a calm home with no yelling, no grief, no, like, hyper vigilance. And as time passed, they finally began to feel like they had settled a little bit and were safer. Now, Donna, the mom, she had dropped out of school in seventh grade. She, at this point, now that they were kind of settled, was able to earn her high school equivalency certificate, she enrolled in career training. She was actually now volunteering at the welfare office.

[Em]

Cool.

[Christine]

Which it's just like such a cool full circle. And the fact that these documentarians like found just such a, like, I don't know, such a cool person to be when they were about to give up. Like, she waltzed in like with a great comeuppance story. You know, she was a very good.

[Em]

She was a almost meant for the story, it seems.

[Christine]

Yeah, like a single woman, two kids, like, yeah, rags to riches, you know, all that nonsense. But so she was really, really coming into her own and it was just a cool thing to see. So filming began that year in August 1995. And Donna and Pam, the producer became really close friends because, you know, they're along for the ride. They're coming to the kids birthday parties, they're coming to, like they're, they're, they're. The production team is basically just enmeshed. Yeah. In the family. And Richard at this point, he starts kind of coming forward and trying to get back in touch with Donna and the kids. He was living with a friend and he had stopped drinking. And at first she said, you know, absolutely not. It took a while, but she finally felt truly convinced that Richard was sober for good. And she cautiously allowed him to, to be in touch with Amber and Ricky so that they could hopefully at least have somewhat of a positive relationship with their father. And it seemed to go pretty well. So the documentary.

[Em]

Oh, sorry, I was gonna say at this point in the documentary, people are involved too. So maybe she felt like there were people's other people watching.

[Christine]

So nothing has aired. So this is like the 90s. They have not, they don't have like, you know, day to day like filming. It's like they have to produce a series over a long period of time. So nothing's aired yet. It' just in the process of being filmed. And so, you know, for months they're filming with the family. They haven't actually put anything out there, but as this is going on, she feels like Richard is kind of really turning a corner and he really wants to be in the kids lives. So she cautiously lets him in and it kind of starts to go really well. They're following the family around for months with cameras. Everything, everything is going smoothly. Honestly, Amber as a little girl was like a star. She was like fun, loving, adventurous, she was funny. She loved being on camera. Like she was the perfect kid to be involved in this.

[Em]

Sure.

[Christine]

And on Saturdays, the family often spent the Day together with Donna's parents, Glenda and Glenda. Oh my God, Glenda.

[Em]

But like close enough.

[Christine]

So damn close. One vowel off. So on Saturdays, they would go to Glenda and Jimmy Whitson's house. Those were their grandparents. What if Jimmy. What if Jimmy's name is not Jimmy? It's just like, call me Jimmy Whitson.

[Em]

But his name's Tom.

[Christine]

Yeah, his name's Tom. Yeah, Jimmy Whitson. So on Saturdays, a family often spent the day with their. With Donna's parents. And Amber and Ricky loved to go to their grandparents. And then they would ride their bikes on this familiar neighborhood loop around the neighborhood. So January 13, 1996, was an unusually warm and sunny day even for Texas. And crowds of people were out in shorts and T shirts. It was like a surprise, you know, outside day, especially for the kids. So Donna and the kids spent a few hours at the park, and then they arrived at Donna's parents place at 3, 3pm Amber and Ricky said hi to their grandpa and they took off on their bikes at 3:10pm Okay, 3:10. Donna shouted after them to stay together. And Amber said, okay, mommy, we will. I'm sorry. That just got me tough.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

So Ricky, who was five now, followed his big sister, who was nine, everywhere. So he just went along with her. When she decided to turn, turn. Instead of their usual path around the block, she wanted to go to a parking lot outside the neighborhood because they had a ramp where the trucks make deliveries. And she liked to ride her bike down the ramp.

[Em]

And I, I would be, I would absolutely do that too.

[Christine]

Big time. Yeah. And it's just right next to the path. It's not, you know, like way off in some forbidden part of the city or something. It's just nearby. And so he's, you know, four years younger. He just follows his big sister and they go to this parking lot and she wants to ride up and down the ramp where the trucks make deliveries. And so Ricky starts to get nervous. He's like, I don't know if we're allowed to be here. Like, he's just a little bit on edge. But Amber says, okay, don't worry, you head home. I'll, I'll come right after you. But when Ricky is just about halfway home, he glances back and does not see Amber behind him. His grandpa sees Ricky approaching and says, where's Amber? And they'd only been gone 10 minutes maximum. They hadn't even been gone 10 whole minutes. And Ricky said, oh, she's at the ramps. So grandpa just grabs Ricky. They jump in the truck and they drive down the street to pick Amber up. But when they arrived, the parking lot is empty.

[Em]

Like I, I, the obviously I don't know the feeling but I can already assume that there was nothing but like incredible fear.

[Christine]

Just driving there, being like stomach churning.

[Em]

Ten minutes is enough time for a lot to happen.

[Christine]

For a lot to happen. And to see a five year old coming back and saying like I don't know where she, like yeah, I feel sick to my stomach. And there must have been something that they knew was wrong. Just the way he said he grabbed the kid and just like yeah, booked.

[Em]

I mean maybe it was just like a gut feeling.

[Christine]

Just like a, that's the, that's the exact vibe I got. It just makes my stomach turn. And especially for like the mid-90s, you know, it's not like stranger, I mean it is stranger danger kind of has happened but it's not like it is today where you can't let your kids run around the block. You know, I feel like back then it wouldn't have been a big deal, right, to like ride your bike around the block. But it sounds like something felt wrong. So they jump in the car. Amber is not at the parking lot but her bike is, it's been left stranded.

[Em]

At that point you just cry. There's just, it's just, there's nothing. I mean, I mean you hope that she got distracted by something and ran into the woods and said I'll leave my bike here and come back for it. You hope.

[Christine]

Yeah. You hope for, you hope for the best. It just, it was so shocking that by the time grandpa got there with the car and saw the bike, the police had already been called by somebody who had witnessed the abduction in broad daylight.

[Em]

Oh.

[Christine]

At 3:18pm 78 year old Jim Keeble called 911 and he lived right there in the neighborhood. And he, his view looked straight at the parking lot and he said, he, I guess heard the kids out there there. He looked, I mean they had been there like what, two, three minutes. They'd barely been there minutes when he watched a man in a black pickup truck pull Amber off her bike and leave with her. And he said the driver didn't even speed up his car.

[Em]

He just so brazenly, just brazenly just knew he could get away with it.

[Christine]

Just slowly drove off. Which is just so creepy.

[Em]

Yeah, the cre. I know. I, I'm trying to think like maybe the slowness was because he was trying to like hold her still and was driving Carefully, Like, I mean, it doesn't, it doesn't matter, but like, I know. Just trying to figure out, like.

[Christine]

Or it's just like, don't attract suspicion. Right? Like, don't.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

If you peel out of here, someone's gonna go.

[Em]

I heard tires squealing, especially eight minutes after school lets out or whatever.

[Christine]

Right, right, right.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

So it's just, it's just, it's just bad.

[Em]

Oh, man.

[Christine]

So. So Jim described the abduction. He said that the abductor didn't bother the bike just grabbed her and took off. She hollered real loud because I could hear it plumb over here. So that's what made me think there was something foul about it. And he called 911 right away. He could only tell police the man was probably white, shorter than 6ft tall, average build, but obviously strong enough to grab a nine year old, struggle who's struggling, and. And put her in his car. So Jim wasn't able to see far enough to see the license plate or the make and model, but he did say it was a black truck. So Donna's father went home with Ricky and had to tell Donna, oh, my God, tell his own daughter that her daughter had been abducted in broad daylight.

[Em]

I can't imagine.

[Christine]

And she said in an interview that she, quote, lost it. She ran down the road toward the parking lot screaming Amber name. Neighbors started gathering outside to see what was going on. Donna went back to her parents and called Richard and. And just starts sobbing and saying someone took Amber. And for a split second she thought, like, did something happen with Richard? Did. Did he do this? Because he was still pretty angry at Donna for leaving him, and they were still experiencing some. Some tension there. But as soon as he arrived and she saw his face, she was like, I knew then there was no way he had anything to do with it because he was so terrified. Like, everyone could read it on his face. She also called the documentary producer, Pam Curry, who had become a good friend. And so everybody's kind of reacting to the scene pretty quickly. The police are keeping track of everyone who's coming and going. Donna explains who Pam is, that the crew wasn't just like a random news station. You know, let them through the police tape, basically, or let them through, let them through the door. And the police thought, well, hey, if they've been around filming, maybe this will give us a lead. Maybe we can. Maybe we can work this to our advantage. Because if it did turn out to be a stranger abduction, then it might have been someone who had seen Amber and Become obsessed with her and was stalking her.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

And then Pam said, well, that theory doesn't work because like I already mentioned, none of the footage had aired yet. So.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

Ironically, they had actually finished editing it that day.

[Em]

Wow.

[Christine]

And had slotted it for air the following week.

[Em]

Oh my gosh.

[Christine]

Okay, well, so that very day they finished editing, and then Pam gets a call saying Amber's been abducted.

[Em]

I can't even.

[Christine]

Nobody but the film crew had seen any of the film. So essentially the. The idea that like a strange ranger saw her on TV and was infatuated with her was off the table. They started searching right away, but it's hard, you know, they didn't really have any leads except that the parking lot, the. The black truck drove out of the parking lot west rather than toward the highway, which was east.

[Em]

Okay, so that's interesting.

[Christine]

So they do know that police pulled over multiple black trucks, you know, looking for Amber with no luck. But of course, a black pickup truck in Texas is not. Yeah, in.

[Em]

It's no DeLorean, you know.

[Christine]

No, no, no, no, no. It's no. Yeah, DeLorean.

[Em]

It's no mystery Machine, I'll tell you.

[Christine]

Yeah, there you go. It's no Mystery Machine, man. I don't even have one. Good example.

[Em]

It's no hot air balloon, I'll tell you.

[Christine]

Oh, damn. You're getting. You're getting all the good ones. It's no unicycle, am I right, guys?

[Em]

You know what? You're are right.

[Christine]

So thank you. Thank you so much. I usually am. So they're. They're looking for black trucks, but you know, they're a diamond dozen down there. So it's not really. It doesn't feel like a very productive search. In other words, there was a Laundromat besides a like aside beside the parking lot, but the wall had no windows, so nobody was able to like see out of it to see the parking lot. So Jim was the only one they could go off of. And he hadn't seen the license. License plate. So authorities set up a command post at Donna's parents house. And satellite vans arrived from dozens of news stations. But unfortunately, news of Amber's kidnapping didn't break until the evening news at 6pm, nearly three hours after she had been abducted. Because there was no such thing as an Amber alert.

[Em]

Yep. Okay, wow.

[Christine]

So giving the abductor three hours means, you know, could have had plenty of time to find a new location, leave town.

[Em]

If anything can happen in 10 minutes, anything can happen in three hours.

[Christine]

That is Just a horrifyingly chilling point. Yes, exactly. So authorities obviously still hope that this publicity would bring in leads. There was no evidence at the scene whatsoever. They didn't even have tire impressions.

[Em]

Wow.

[Christine]

They. They had nothing. So they needed any tips they could get. And Pam's team, who had been filming, they did give all the unaired footage, you know, to police to give investigators something to look at and try and see if they could figure anything out in the coverage.

[Em]

Sorry, I was going to say the. The 78 year old who like called in 91 1. How do we know how far away he was? Like, so he was.

[Christine]

We. I don't know. Technically I do know he was, I believe, living in an apartment compl. Complex on several floors up, I assume.

[Em]

Okay, so he was kind of far.

[Christine]

I think he was kind of far. He was also elderly. I. I don't think he could have seen it.

[Em]

Sure. Yeah. From where he was, he's just like a black truck.

[Christine]

Yeah, he just saw a black truck. And I think it just happened so fast too. And so like, just calmly, like brazenly that it was almost. Yeah, yeah. But, um, it's. It's too bad. I mean, thank God somebody saw it, but it's like you wish one more person would have looked out the window at the right time. You know what I mean? It's just. It's always so hard. So in the coverage of her abduction, they also were able to use the documentary footage because the family gave it to the news media and said, if this helps get Amber's story out, then we want you to use it. So on the news, they were able to use footage of, of Amber blowing out birthday candles, like playing with friends, getting tucked into bed. And so this like, for the public was like very eye openening. It was it like the amount of people who went to vigils, who put up flyers, like they leapt into action because they were able to watch this footage of this little girl like going about her day to day life because it had all been on film. And so callers overwhelmed investigators with tips. Arlington was covered in pink bows and Amber name. They had them tied around trees. It was, it was a huge, huge deal. And she became like a very, very important person in, in everyone's household. So things were tense between Richard and Donna because Richard learned that in the unaired documentary she had accused him of abuse and he denied any abuse. And so there was definitely increased, increased tension. However, because they both wanted Amber back, they repeatedly went on the news together. They were able to work side by side well enough to, you know, put on a good front and go on air and just plead for Amber's safe return. Donna told the abductor to just drop Amber somewhere safe. She said, quote, she's smart, she can find her way home. Just let her go.

[Em]

God, that's so sad.

[Christine]

It's just, it's horrible. Richard, for what it's worth, was officially ruled out as a suspect. So it's not just that he, you know, looked totally stricken, but he actually was officially ruled out when surveillance footage showed him basically at a, at a storage place that he was at that he had already given as his alibi. So basically his alibi was, was, was good. Okay, so likewise, close family friend Mike Thompson, who owned a black truck and who lived with Richard at the time, was also clear. They had the data from when he was driving his work truck, his delivery truck, and he was miles away from where Amber was taken. So, you know, of course this is good. They're ruling out people like her own father, but also, it's just like setting them back. They just don't have anywhere else to go. So they take helicopters, train sent dogs, volunteer forces. They're all searching for Amber. Donna stayed at her parents house in case.

[Em]

Just in case came home.

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah. And Pam said Donna couldn't eat or sleep, just could barely function. So as investigators followed up with everyone in the family's inner and outer circles, they started to realize that this probably was just an opportunistic stranger kidnapping, which is really not that common, you know, in comparison to abductions by family members. It's, it's just so uncommon. And I think with, with the drama in the family and the abuse allegations, like you'd think, oh, somebody in the family might have something to do with it. And then to find out, like, nope, this was just a crime of opportunity. So that meant she was also, unfortunately, statistically at much greater risk of harm. Because at the time of Amber's abduction, the Washington State Attorney General's office was conducting a study on missing children homicide cases. And in 1997, the publication stated that in 70, 76% of the studied abduction cases, which resulted in murder, the child was dead within three hours of the abduction.

[Em]

That's even worse than I thought. I thought that the number was like. Well, I guess they always say like, you know, within the first 24 hours is when you hope to find a kid. So in my mind it was, you have 24 hours, not you have fucking three. Which is exactly how much she had before the thing even aired.

[Christine]

Before it aired. And I will say, in 88.5% of the cases, the child is dead within 24 hours. Four hours. So, like, okay, so almost. I mean, 89. Rounding up. 89 of children who are murdered by their kidnapper or by their abductor are dead within 24 hours. 76% within three hours. So they're both shocking statistics.

[Em]

And it's like, that's a bad number.

[Christine]

It's a very, very bad number. And like you said, three hours later, they hadn't even aired to the public yet. People had. Hadn't even seen the footage of her as a little girl and gotten, you know, involved. So the whole city was just completely shaken. The residential area where Amber was kidnapped was, like, a really established community. There were, like, families that had lived there for generations. People generally were pretty friendly with each other and. And knew what's was going on in each other's lives. And although the abductor's root indicated that maybe he had been local, it was difficult to accept because it was broad daylight and nobody had seen anything. And it's like, that was so risky of this person to do that with an opportunity for so many witnesses. There was one witness, but, like, the opportunity that anyone could be glancing around or looking out the window in broad daylight. Daylight on a beautiful summer day or winter day. Sorry.

[Em]

But also to do it like. Like, I mean, you're like apartment buildings and everything. Like, it was not only so risky, it was. It's again with the classic. We're always talking about the confident narcissists, but it's like, to think you just could and, like, and did and did. I mean, you got. Hey, you got away with it.

[Christine]

You got brazen enough to do it, and it worked. And that's just so sick. So because of that fact that it was such a risky and, like, brazen moment move, they started to look. The FBI first focused on locals who had been convicted of sex crimes, who had committed repeat offenses. So somebody who, like, clearly was going to be a repeat offender. And so that's where they began. And then they brought in their search to single men in the surrounding neighborhoods and then used a grid map and canvassed every residence in that area. They got thousands of tips, and none went anywhere. So se. So several days after Amber's disappearance, a cold front moved in on the warm weather, causing thunderstorms and heavy rain, so.

[Em]

Washing away any evidence.

[Christine]

Well, just before midnight on January 17, a man went out to walk his dog along a drainage ditch near an apartment complex, and he saw the body of a child in the water.

[Em]

Oh, I did not see that coming. Oh, yeah, I. Okay. My. Okay. I had never heard the story of an AMBER Alert, and I always assumed, like, oh, she was saved because of the first AMBER Alert. Or the first. Okay, wow. That's not how I saw this going. Okay.

[Christine]

Yeah, I'm sorry. Maybe I should have given a better warning.

[Em]

No, hey, like, just a really fucked up plot twist, I guess. I don't know.

[Christine]

Yeah. Yeah, it is. It's like one of those things where you want it to be hopeful because it had some positive outcome, but it's just, like, we just know about the silver lining, not the part that predated it, you know?

[Em]

Yeah, that's terrible.

[Christine]

Geo, please.

[Em]

Compared to everything he's done say, like.

[Christine]

I just can't have both of you on my.

[Em]

I just. I. I'm still. He apparently just ate right through the doggy marijuana and nothing happened. So cool. Yeah.

[Christine]

So, yes, I do. I do apologize. It's. It's just sad. So this guy's out. He. He sees this drainage ditch. It's really deep. There's this very swift, moving water, and the dog starts barking at the water and running back and forth in distress. And that also breaks my heart because it's like he didn't even spot the child at first, and the dog did. And, I mean, presumably knew that the child was deceased. And it's like the dogma dog was like, look, look, you know, help. Or oh, just like, sick to my stomach. And so when the dog, you know, or when the owner of the dog, Stuart, got closer and saw a partially submerged body of a child. It's just a horrible thing to say. He already knew who it was because Amber's news had been just so pervasive locally, so he immediately believed it was her. And so he. It's unclear whether he ran home and called 911 or had his wife call 911 and rush back, which I think that's what happened either way.

[Em]

What year Was this again?

[Christine]

96. 96.

[Em]

Yeah. I can't. I don't think anyone really had cell phones yet.

[Christine]

Well, so what I mean is, like, I don't know if he ran back and called himself or if he ran back and told his wife to call, because I see the. What we do know is that the caller told the operator that the water was rushing over the child's body. And the operator said, I'm worried that the body will be washed away by the water. And the caller said, God, she said, my Husband's out there, he won't let her go. And so he ran out and like made sure her body didn't get like washed away in the drainage ditch. I mean it's just like the fucking worst thing I've ever heard.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

And so of course Amber's family is like immediately made aware that a child's remains have just been discovered a few miles down from Donna's parents home. Home. And so it would take time to determine that the remains did actually belong to her. But in the meantime, they could only wait and maybe potentially know that this is probably what is going to happen. So they wait. For hours. They watch on the news as authorities remove the child from the creek on a stretcher covered by a and wheel them away for identification. They have to listen to reports, reporters speculating that this is Amber or whether or not it's Amber. And all night Pam and the documentary crew remained with Donna. And for what it's worth, per her request, she asked him to stay there. And finally, Amber was positively identified by unique birthmarks. This is where as I was like getting into the depths of the story, I was like, maybe I misremembered and it's like not Amber. And like that's what I was.

[Em]

Well, not that I'm hoping it's.

[Christine]

I know it like. Well, yeah, it's like some freak misunderstanding, but like. No, unfortunately it just is everyone's worst nightmare that it was in fact a child. It was in fact Amber. And the Victim assistance team was granted five minutes to inform Amber's family before the media.

[Em]

Five minutes.

[Christine]

Announced it. Yeah.

[Em]

So they had five minutes to privately grieve.

[Christine]

To privately grieve or to even process or to even.

[Em]

Yeah, let them have three hours since that's how long it took anyway for people to start realizing she was gone. Jesus Christ.

[Christine]

Five minutes is just unthinkable. But you know, at this point they've watched it all on tv. It must be surreal as it is. So they tell Donna, she collapses. She's still in denial at this point. She demands to see the remains herself and she wants to hold her daughter. But she's told that an autopsy needs to be performed and that was made top priority. So they did an autopsy and they found that Amber was killed by a severe laceration across the neck from one side to the other.

[Em]

Oh my God.

[Christine]

There were no signs of physical torture or sexual abuse on Amber's body. Although, you know, they can't rule out a sexual component opponent. You know, we've all heard that idea that like Sometimes the violence is the sexual gratification of the sexual part of the act. So.

[Em]

Oh, my God.

[Christine]

It's possible. But they didn't sign find any signs of rape. There was also a lack of posthumous injuries that would. Would indicate that she had been floating far in the creek before discovery. And investigators believed she was basically discovered where she had been placed. So she hadn't been, like, you know, moving rapidly through the water. It was more that she had been there until the drainage ditch kind of filled up and she was spotted for the first time.

[Em]

Terrible. Is that. Is that any. I mean, this is obviously a terrible situation, but is that better or worse for the police in terms of investigating? Definitely better. Right?

[Christine]

I mean, I would think better because it's less damage to her body posthumously. And also would give you some sort of clue. Right. As to, like, yeah. Where. If it was the same location where she had been left, that gives them more information. I mean, I want to say that, but then, just spoiler alert. We don't get many answers, so.

[Em]

Oh, okay.

[Christine]

Well, it just gets worse. I'm sorry.

[Em]

This whole time, I thought we were gonna at least figure out what happened.

[Christine]

Well, okay, so they believe the killer must have already known about the creek, because kind of like what we're saying is, okay, maybe if. If this was where her body was disposed of, maybe this abductor knew this location. So perhaps he lived in the nearby a car apartment complex. So they began systematically interviewing the residents of every occupied apartment that kind of was right next to that area. Yeah, but while the complex had two gates, one was broken, so anyone could come and go, and there was not really, really, like, a code that was working on one of the gates. So a surveillance camera had picked up a black pickup truck driving through the parking lot that night. But because the storm, wind, and rain made the footage so blurry, they couldn't make out the license plate or the make and model.

[Em]

Of course. Of course.

[Christine]

And it's the 90s, so the footage already at night time is not.

[Em]

It's not like two pixels exactly.

[Christine]

Like, you just see a square, you know? Um, but finally, you know, after the autopsy is performed, and they. They give Donna the chance to hold Amber, so she does get to do that. The funeral was public. Over 2000 people attended. Cards and condolence gifts poured in from around the world. People sent in hundreds of stuffed animals and toys in memory of Amber. And then a few days after the funeral, Donna donated them to the families at the women's shelter where she'd lived before.

[Em]

Sorry.

[Christine]

Oh, my Gosh, really me up, dude.

[Em]

Yeah, I get it.

[Christine]

So in the months following Amber's murder, Donna moved back into her apartment with her son Ricky, who, I mean, imagine like five or six years old. It's just like unfathomable, you know, and.

[Em]

Also, you know, he's got some sort.

[Christine]

Of, like, he's had to have his mind for years. Right?

[Em]

Like, well, I left her there, you know, something like, what did I see?

[Christine]

Or did I. Could I have seen anything or stopped it? Or.

[Em]

I mean, imagine the grandpa who like found out. Oh, and like saw her bike there. I mean, like, everyone has had some sort of survivor. Survivor's guilt, I imagine so.

[Christine]

Even the, even the man who said, like, I couldn't make out the license plate. And it's like, oh, man, you know, you just wish. Oh, you wish, you wish. Could have, should have, would have. It's too bad. So Donna received thousands of dollars in donations in supporter or from supporters in Amber name. But unfortunately this became kind of a problem because she put the money into a trust fund because she really one day all. She had hoped that one of her kids or both of her kids would be able to attend college someday. So she put this donated money aside for. In a trust for Ricky. But the welfare department said, well, that's money that you have that you could be using for rent, grand groceries, etc. So we're taking basically our support back. And it just. I talked about a slap in the.

[Em]

Face, big ass middle finger. Oh my God, yes, yes.

[Christine]

And they then said, well, why don't you seek child support from Richard and get money that way? And ultimately they just pulled her social benefits after.

[Em]

That's trash. That's such trash.

[Christine]

It's trash. It is. And, and she. This is like the most just outrageous, infuriating. Well, just listen to this sentence.

[Em]

What?

[Christine]

Ultimately, Donna lost her social benefits following Amber's death, even while being honored at a ceremony for her outstanding volunteer work at the welfare office. Work she had done for free to support the program she believed in. And that had what her.

[Em]

What an absolute terror of a headline.

[Christine]

Is that not just the world's the shittiest head or sentence in the world.

[Em]

I'd quit that day. I'd be like, you, you, you.

[Christine]

I can't imagine the slap in the face, like the just betrayal of that.

[Em]

Which, like, you know, she. It's not even like she's a random person seeking out help. Like she has connections to the people who could approve this and there's.

[Christine]

She's helping other people. Right, Exactly. It's Just amazing. It's just amazing.

[Em]

Oh my God. That's. I. Obviously not worse than her losing her child. That's certainly the most ridiculous thing I've heard in this story so far.

[Christine]

It's just the most like blatant slap in the face. Like you couldn't get more ironic plot twist, shitty turn of events, you know, like.

[Em]

And talk about salting a wound. It's like she literally lost her kid. You can't just.

[Christine]

And she's trying to raise her five year old now, you know, and feed him.

[Em]

And she's the poster child for how wonderful you are.

[Christine]

Right. And. Right. And they're trying to get some. Some sympathy, empathy going here for people to really support these systems and support this kind of support for other people. But true.

[Em]

I mean, it's just talk about times. Total betrayal. Total betrayal.

[Christine]

It's just hard to imagine this is what, 30 years ago and we're still fucking.

[Em]

If you thought your job sucked, you know, that's a.

[Christine]

That's got to be.

[Em]

No one was having a worse day than her that day. Tell you that.

[Christine]

That's got to be really, really, really bad. She. I mean it was. She. She sometimes lacked the will to even live. She said. She. And she said, I. I just want to go be with Amber.

[Em]

I get it.

[Christine]

But she had Ricky and she said so she wanted to live for him. She became a highly public figure. She advocated for Amber for the safety of other kids in Texas. The Arlington community rallied behind her and. And really sought justice for. For Amber and her family. Family. Donna did receive support from other families of abduction murder victims, like Paulie Claus's father. And that story I covered in episode 412, which wasn't too long ago.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

And so she did receive some support that way. Investigators continued to follow up on thousands of tips, including one woman who apparently talk about like twisted. She fabricated a story about seeing Amber in a black picture pickup truck, going so far as to give up partial. Making up a partial license plate.

[Em]

Why?

[Christine]

And getting an innocent man, I'll tell you. And getting an innocent man investigated before she admitted she just lied because she thought it would give Donna some hope.

[Em]

I don't even know what to do with that. Like, just like, thanks for nothing.

[Christine]

Sit down. Like, sit down.

[Em]

I've never understood the like, oh, them being helpful in a way that's actually not helpful at all.

[Christine]

That just like makes it so much worse. Like get out of here and just muddies.

[Em]

Muddies everything.

[Christine]

And then gets another family involved. That had nothing to do.

[Em]

It gets Another person in trouble. Yeah.

[Christine]

What in the. Yeah, just. No, if you don't have something to say that's gonna help, just be quiet, you know? So one day Fort with Texas resident Diana Simone called her local radio station with an idea. Now this is where I was like, wait, what? This is how the. This happened. Diana Simone of Fort Worth, Texas, calls the local radio and says, I have a great idea. There should be a system in place between law enforcement agencies and radio stations so that we can announce when a child goes missing right away and make sure we find them.

[Em]

You know, what's really like, wild is that someone had to pitch that. That should have just been like, hey, the second we have a radio, people should know about things.

[Christine]

I know, but you wouldn't.

[Em]

Maybe there's like a legalities of like, well, we can't announce until blah, blah, blah or something. But like, maybe.

[Christine]

I think it was probably also not like a widespread like alert system in place. Maybe like that could.

[Em]

Maybe. But wouldn't you think? Like, I mean, I, I'm. I'm speaking like hindsight, retroactively, whatever. But like, I would imagine if the, the second radio came out and they were warning you of like a fire nearby or the weather or like, hey, a tornado's coming and look out. Why. Why didn't it occur to them, like, hey, there's also. There's someone missing.

[Christine]

You're probably right. I think, I think, I think it must have just been like, well, they're not going to release that information publicly.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

I guess if they're looking for someone's killer, like, if you announce, hey, this kid just went missing, like you there, you have no control over the case. So maybe it's like they needed a system in place, especially for kids. Like, they're not going to just go around announcing names of.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

You know, on public police radio that you can just like hear. So I.

[Em]

It feels so obvious, like it's wild. That had to be pitched a long time after radio was invented.

[Christine]

I agree, I agree. But Diana Simone, she. A light bulb in her head. She said she followed Amber's case on the news and thought that Amber may have been found if the public could have known immediately to be on the lookout for the abductor and the black truck. And I think it was a. Specifically the black truck because think of an Amber Alert. It's about the vehicle. Right. Oftentimes has the license plate or at least a partial plate or at least make and model. And so, you know, I think that was where it clicked for her like, oh, if we had known to look out for that black, black truck, we could have been more cognizant in the hours like, before we even knew she had been abducted.

[Em]

Right.

[Christine]

So she said, maybe the radio station can work with first responders to create a system that immediately notifies the public of abductions. And Donna, meanwhile, is continuing to advocate. At this point in time, she was continuing to advocate for change to help families in abduction cases. She was speaking at town hall meetings and in documentaries and newspapers specials. And so when she kind of heard about this, it took only a few months, but In October of 1996, the Amber Plan was officially announced publicly.

[Em]

Wow. The fact that it only took a few months to.

[Christine]

Isn't that. That's what. That's when women get involved.

[Em]

I'm telling you.

[Christine]

So sorry, guys. Hey.

[Em]

And honestly, radio, I feel like I. I'm sorry. I'm going to. I'm still harping on this thing, but I feel like pitching the. That couldn't have been the first time that was pitched. Pinched, like, they. It couldn't have been. And then I feel like someone in my mind is a man. Someone was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, we'll worry about that later. But, like, the second she shows up, she's like, we're doing it. And months later, it was enacted. Like, someone pitched it about milk cartons, of all things.

[Christine]

Right, Right.

[Em]

The closest thing to the worldwide source of information.

[Christine]

Worldwide. You know what? Like, you're making a very good point. I do feel like maybe it was just never prioritized until something like this happened. And it was, like, so publicly.

[Em]

Someone who hated children. It was pitched to, and he would. I don't care.

[Christine]

Just like. Or someone who just loved money more than he cared about children. 100%, I would say is more likely, but, yeah.

[Em]

No, I. So, okay. It only took a few months. This woman's a rock star. Great.

[Christine]

Yeah. Yeah. So, well, Simone and. Or Diana. Simone and. And Donna. They. They, I guess, merge. Yeah. And the Amber plant is announced. It's, of course, named after Amber, but it's also an acronym for America's Missing Broadcast Emergency Response.

[Em]

Oh, I had no idea.

[Christine]

I know.

[Em]

Fun. Fun fact.

[Christine]

Pretty powerful stuff. So now, when this plan went into action, when an abduction occurred, information of the victim, the suspect, any vehicle involved in other relevant information would be shared with local radio stations. The radio stations would interrupt their broadcast with a loud noise. Many of us know it, at least the one in the US Or. I don't know if it's regional or what, but it's really a scary sound alert public to the situation. In 2005, Hawaii became the final state to make its Amber alert plan, completing all 50 states having NDC having A. Some sort of nationwide system to alert the public of child abductions. I guess.

[Em]

Question. Yeah, not really a serious question, but still one I'm curious about is do you know how they picked that sound? Because they could have picked any horrible sound. Why did they pick. Pick that one? Like what is. Is it supposed to like hit a certain decibel in your brain freaks you out?

[Christine]

I mean my thought, my association with it was always like one of those old timey like military announce like wartime announcements. Like that's always my gut instinct is like we interrupt this. I. But I don't know, maybe I wonder.

[Em]

What other sounds they tried first.

[Christine]

I don't know like.

[Em]

Because they could have gone with like a tornado drill, like a.

[Christine]

That's true. That's true.

[Em]

Anyway, I know that's like.

[Christine]

I know. I wonder what the logistics are behind that. Like behind the scenes. Like that's too close to a tornado siren. We don't want people thinking it's like weather related and like this is too close to a bomb announcement or you know, I don't know. I mean I. Yeah, that's a genuinely interesting question. I have no clue.

[Em]

We'll figure it out. We'll look it up in the app yet.

[Christine]

Yeah, that's actually great idea. Okay, so according to the national center for Missing and Exploited Children, the system is also active across indigenous American land, the US Virgin Islands, Puerto Rico and like I said, DC Similar rapid emergency child alert systems are active in dozens of countries worldwide. Chime in below with your sound in your town. Especially if it's a chime because that sounds nice. Ours isn't.

[Em]

Ours is not a. It's not a dainty little whistle chime. No, no.

[Christine]

It's not a nice little wind chime or anything like scream.

[Em]

It's like a digital scream.

[Christine]

So the national center for Missing and Exploited Children also states that as of December 31, 2024, 1268 children have been recovered due to the activation of an Amber Alert.

[Em]

Hell yeah.

[Christine]

I know. And I want to tell you m. Because I know that I made it sound like there was no real silver lining or like positive story to come out of this, but there is. Because I am going to tell you about the first child who was direct rescued due to alert.

[Em]

I would appreciate that.

[Christine]

I do have a hopeful, a hopeful story at the end here.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

One such child was Rayleigh Bradbury, who was kidnapped by her babysitter in arlington, Texas, in 1998, triggering an Amber Alert.

[Em]

Wow.

[Christine]

Just 30 minutes later, a man called 911 and said he saw the babysitter on the road with Rayleigh in the passenger seat and said, quote, this is one of the wildest things. Things I've ever heard. And this is exactly how I would have sounded on the call to 91 1. Okay, that Amber Alert. The lady's right in front of me. I'm on Interstate 20 fixing across 1382. That's her. I can't believe it.

[Em]

Oh, wow.

[Christine]

He literally heard the Amber Alert, went, that's the car. I've always, like, done that, where I see the lights plate and I look around like, are you right here next to me on the highway? And they're never there.

[Em]

Well, also, like. Well, yeah, I. I don't mind him freaking out because he's like, holy. I get to be the first person to use this.

[Christine]

I mean, and it's like, it's really works. It's probably just like, holy. You just said, hey, this child is missing. And I see her, like, it must be, like, mindboggling, you know?

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

And so it really worked. And so Rayleigh was quickly rescued. She was returned safely to her mother, and she became the first child to be saved by the Amber Alert system.

[Em]

Wow. Wow.

[Christine]

And now get. This is where Christy cries for three. There's. What is it? 3 times 5, 10. Hello.

[Em]

5 times 10. 50 times so far you've cried.

[Christine]

Oh, I thought you were saying. I don't know what I thought you were saying. I was like, why are you doing math? What's happening? So this is where. Yeah, I cry for the 500th time. Rayleigh said in an interview years later that she grew up after this thinking of Amber as her literal guardian angel. And she used to pray to her at night and be like, thank you for saving me.

[Em]

It's just like, oh, that's a. Yeah, I get it.

[Christine]

So as for Amber's younger brother, Ricky, he said in a documentary about Amber that when he. Whenever. God damn it.

[Em]

51.

[Christine]

Damn it. He said whenever he hears an Amber Alert, he thinks it's time to go to work. Sis, do your thing.

[Em]

Oh, that's pretty. That's pretty heartbreaking.

[Christine]

Anyway, so Amber's legacy, of course, is, like, bittersweet, because, of course, you know, there are these, like, happy stories that come out of it. But of course, there, you know, you don't ever really recover from something like that, especially because they have Never caught the person who abducted Amber and killed her.

[Em]

And you know what's sick is he probably. If he's alive, he probably has the nerve to make.

[Christine]

He knows about a Amber Alert.

[Em]

Yeah, he's like, he's the reason, you know, he's got some narcissistic to him that's just.

[Christine]

It's so dark. In a 2023 documentary, which is, you know, one of the more recent ones on this case, investigators discuss that they may be able to use new forensic techniques to extract DNA from some of the very limited evidence they have. But they don't want to, like, waste because, you know, when you use it, you use it up, and so they don't have much left, and they. They don't want to accidentally use it up, and the technology isn't good enough yet, you know, so they're kind of sitting on it. So they're waiting a few months more years for more DNA advances before risking using up all the potential DNA. So, you know, there is hope there. So we'll see. On anniversaries of Amber's abduction and death, Donna has made different statements to the press alongside investigators, usually just encouraging the public to keep Amber's case in mind and come forward with any new information. She said, I want the world to know who Amber was. She was my dad dream. And that is a story. Sorry.

[Em]

52. Oh, God.

[Christine]

You really got me today, man.

[Em]

No, that's a pretty devastating story. That's. That's a rough one. I. I feel like an cuz half the time I was wrangling a dog while listening to it, and I like, I just so badly. I hope I. It didn't look like I wasn't giving you my attention. I just.

[Christine]

No, not at all. Not at all. I. Listen, I knew you had.

[Em]

You had multitasking.

[Christine]

You had a Wy. Wy Riley one on your hands.

[Em]

And I want you to know 60 seconds ago, this finally happened.

[Christine]

No. 60 seconds ago, he's completely on. He's completely still.

[Em]

It's the first time literally all day.

[Christine]

He's, like, sleeping. Is he sleeping?

[Em]

He's on his way. Holy. Like, it. Like, seconds ago, he was trying to bite my hand off while you were talking about something really horrible. And like, maybe he sensed it.

[Christine]

He's like, don't be sad. Play with me. It's like it's our job to be sad. It's like we pay the bills. That's how we pay your. Your dog weed.

[Em]

Bills that you don't appreciate. I hope you're stunned at your happen.

[Christine]

The edible kicked in.

[Em]

So how long did that take? A whole podcast? Okay, I'll start drugging you as soon as you. Oh, my God. No. He only gets puppy weed when we're recording. But I gotta figure out the timing of when it kicks in, I guess. Oh, my.

[Christine]

Well, it seems like it. We have some work to do on that timing, but next time, maybe the night before and it'll kick in by tomorrow morning.

[Em]

Jesus. Well, no, that was a very good story. Thank you for telling me at the end, like, a hopeful part to it because. And I didn't know, like, 1270 is. Is around there is the number of how many kids have been saved.

[Christine]

Nice. And then now do you get those silver alerts where it's like an endangered older person?

[Em]

Yeah. Yeah. I wonder how many people have been helped with that too. I'd like to see those numbers.

[Christine]

Curious. We could check it out in the yappy hour because we have a lot to Google.

[Em]

We sure do. Thank you, everybody, everyone, for listening. When this comes out, we will be on the road again. We'll be heading over to New Orleans in a couple days.

[Christine]

Can't wait.

[Em]

It'll be a good time. So thank you for listening. Sorry to everybody who's been having to endure the puppy era. I'm going through right now. Great time and. And good story, Christine.

[Christine]

Thank you. You too, Em.

[Em]

And that's why we drink.