E428 A Smuggled Cream Soda and a Vibin' Lady in White

Summary

Podcast Summary: And That's Why We Drink – Episode 428: "A Smuggled Cream Soda and a Vibin' Lady in White"

Release Date: April 20, 2025
Hosts: Christine Schiefer & Em Schulz
Description: Murder and the paranormal collide in this chilling episode. Join Christine and Em as they delve into eerie ghost stories and true crime tales that will send shivers down your spine. Grab your favorite drink and settle in for a captivating journey into the unknown.

---

Personal Updates and Banter

The episode begins with Christine sharing her excitement about being selected in the Savannah Bananas lottery, a long-awaited achievement after years of attempts.

Christine [02:06]:
"I've applied for years and I've never actually gotten it, so I just had to share my good news with everyone."

Em expresses her envy and discusses her own experiences with the Savannah Bananas lottery, revealing her disappointment in not winning yet.

Em [08:13]:
"I have yet to get my golden ticket from the Savannah Bananas. That's why I drink."

The hosts engage in light-hearted conversations about their dogs, travel plans to New Orleans, and the challenges of pet ownership while touring.

---

Segment 1: Haunted Hotel Metlin

History of Hotel Metlin

Christine and Em transition into their paranormal segment, focusing on the Hotel Metlin in Dylan, Montana. They provide a detailed history of the hotel, originally built in 1898 by local businessman Joe Metlin as a luxurious establishment adjacent to the railroad depot.

Em [20:01]:
"It was originally called the Metlin Hotel and Saloon, built in 1898, boasting modern amenities like plumbing and electric lighting."

The hotel, a three-story building with a distinctive tower, served as a social hub until the decline of the railroad made it less frequented. In the 1980s, it was listed on the National Register of Historic Places but ceased operation as a hotel in 2008. The establishment now operates its bars and dance floors while the hotel rooms remain vacant or repurposed.

Paranormal Activities

The hosts recount various ghostly encounters reported at Hotel Metlin, including sightings of a "lady in white" who is perceived as peaceful and vibing at the bar and dance floor.

Em [30:46]:
"She is seen at the bar. She's seen floating on the dance floor. She's really vibing. Love that."

Other reported apparitions include a woman with a black bonnet and a man in a cowboy hat. Phenomena such as unexplained noises, objects moving on their own, and doors locking/unlocking themselves add to the hotel's haunted reputation.

Em [33:34]:
"Items going missing, furniture dragging, and doors locking themselves are just some of the spooky happenings here."

One particularly disturbing event involved a group using a Ouija board and receiving stern messages from the spirits, emphasizing the hotel's dark energy, especially on the third floor, which remains locked and off-limits due to its menacing presence.

Em [35:24]:
"The third floor is said to have darker energy. In fact, it's been locked up for decades because it's so haunted."

---

Segment 2: The Tragic Story of Andrew Bagby

Background and Early Life

Christine narrates the poignant story of Andrew Bagby, a beloved medical student whose life was tragically cut short. Andrew met his wife Kate in Long Beach, California, and they married five months later. After struggling with fertility, they welcomed their son, Zachary, in September 1973.

Christine [61:56]:
"Andrew grew up as a boisterous kid, found solace in acting, and had a close-knit group of friends. His dream was to become a doctor."

Andrew excelled in medical school but faced challenges in his personal life, particularly in his relationship with his fiancée, Heather Arnold.

Relationship with Shirley Turner

Andrew entered a relationship with Shirley Turner, an accomplished but emotionally unstable doctor with a history of manipulative behavior. Despite warnings from friends about Shirley's erratic nature, Andrew persevered, believing in their relationship.

Christine [73:12]:
"Despite his friends' concerns, Andrew felt she was the right person for him and didn't see the red flags."

Shirley’s invasive and harassing behavior escalated, culminating in numerous inappropriate phone calls and boundary violations. Her obsession with Andrew intensified, leading to fear and distress within his social circle.

The Tragic Murder

In November 2001, after Andrew decided to end his relationship with Shirley, she appeared at his home unannounced. Two days later, Andrew was found dead in a nearby state park, having been brutally murdered with a .22 caliber gun.

Christine [84:07]:
"Andrew was shot five times in cold blood—once in the chest, face, buttocks, and the back of his head."

Shirley fled to Canada but was later arrested in Newfoundland amidst mounting evidence linking her to the crime. Despite her attempts to maintain a relationship with her son Zachary, Shirley's actions ultimately led to further tragedy.

Aftermath and Legal Reforms

The heartbreaking loss of both Andrew and Zachary plunged Kate and David Bagby into profound grief. Their struggle highlighted significant flaws in the legal and child custody systems, leading to public outcry and calls for reform.

Inspired by the tragedy, a documentary titled "Dear Zachary" was released, bringing international attention to the case and advocating for changes in how custody and bail are managed to prevent such losses in the future.

Christine [105:18]:
"The documentary was a beautiful tribute and spurred legal reforms, ensuring that cases like Shirley's receive closer scrutiny."

In 2010, an amendment to the Criminal Code of Canada was passed in Zachary's and Andrew's names, allowing bail to be denied to protect minors, a direct outcome of the Bagby family's ordeal.

Em [107:25]:
"Shirley’s case was a catalyst for legal change, ensuring better protection for children in custody disputes."

---

Conclusion

Episode 428 of And That's Why We Drink masterfully intertwines personal anecdotes with gripping true crime and paranormal narratives. Christine and Em provide a heartfelt recounting of Andrew Bagby's tragic story, emphasizing the profound impact of his loss on his family and the subsequent legal reforms inspired by their suffering. The haunted Hotel Metlin segment adds an extra layer of eerie suspense, perfectly blending murder and the supernatural—capturing the essence of why listeners are drawn to this chilling podcast.

Notable Quotes:

• Christine [61:56]:
  "Andrew grew up as a boisterous kid, found solace in acting, and had a close-knit group of friends. His dream was to become a doctor."

• Em [30:46]:
  "She is seen at the bar. She's seen floating on the dance floor. She's really vibing. Love that."

• Em [35:24]:
  "The third floor is said to have darker energy. In fact, it's been locked up for decades because it's so haunted."

• Christine [105:18]:
  "The documentary was a beautiful tribute and spurred legal reforms, ensuring that cases like Shirley's receive closer scrutiny."

---

Note: This summary captures the essence of Episode 428, focusing on the core content while omitting advertisements and non-content segments. For a deeper dive, listening to the full episode is highly recommended.

Transcript

[Christine]

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[Em]

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[Christine]

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[Em]

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[Christine]

Drink again, that's ZipRecruiter.com Drink Zip Intro post jobs today. Talk to qualified candidates tomorrow. Hey Kristen, how's it tracking with Carvana value tracker? What else? Oh, it's tracking in fact. Value surge alert. Trucks up 2.5%. Vans down 1.7.

[Em]

Just as predicted.

[Christine]

So we gonna. I don't know, could sell. Could hold the power to always know our car's worth. Exhilarating, isn't it? Tracking Always know your car's worth with Carvana value tracker.

[Em]

Welcome to and that's why we drink. We have it's episode 428 and Christine immediately wanted to dive right in and had something to say.

[Christine]

Well, to be fair, usually we don't even give that much information up top. In fact, we never say the name of the podcast. Rarely do I say the number correctly. So honestly, we're off to a better start than usual. But I will say I'm very excited. I just got an email saying that I was picked in the banana ball lottery for the Savannah Banana game in Cincinnati.

[Em]

So jealous of you.

[Christine]

I'm so excited. I. I've applied for years and I've never actually gotten it, so. I'm sorry, Emma, I have other plans now. I know you just got the dog to settle, but I have to go and buy basketball tickets. Bye. I mean, baseball tickets.

[Em]

I was gonna say. Hang on a second.

[Christine]

They're gonna revoke my ticket access in like 5 seconds for saying that. No, but, yeah, I'm just excited. I just thought I would share my good news with everyone.

[Em]

Nice. Yeah.

[Christine]

As I.

[Em]

Who are you going to go with?

[Christine]

Who am I going to go with?

[Em]

Date night With Blaze.

[Christine]

I mean, it's got to be. It's got to be him, right? It's got to be him. And I am pretty sure also it's got to be Leona, because that just feels like, as a parent, I'm supposed to do that. I don't know.

[Em]

I don't know. As a non parent, you don't have to do that.

[Christine]

Do you want to come?

[Em]

I mean, sure.

[Christine]

You don't sound like it, so. Okay.

[Em]

I mean, I've. I mean, I've been in the banana ball lottery for also many years and I. I have never gotten into.

[Christine]

Oh, really? Okay. So this is because I. For me, I was like, it's been a few years, but maybe I missed the emails. So. Yeah, it's probably. I probably just haven't gotten.

[Em]

That's awesome. When is it?

[Christine]

I have no idea. It won't let me open the page.

[Em]

Awkward.

[Christine]

Watch Spam. Watch me just have, like.

[Em]

No, no, no.

[Christine]

Given all my information away.

[Em]

No, that sounds. That sounds very fun. I do think you should. If you're gonna take anyone. I think Leona will have a good time, I think. Love to go.

[Christine]

Maybe I won't go and I'll just let Alex. Or let Blaze and Leona go. That's actually my ideal.

[Em]

I did think you were gonna say maybe you don't go. And then I just go. That sounded good too.

[Christine]

Go. But take someone who wants to go. So I feel like I've done something, you know, right. For my family.

[Em]

I think we'd full circle and I would just take you, so. I think it would.

[Christine]

Okay, well, then, honestly. Great.

[Em]

Sounds like a plan. Sorry.

[Christine]

Yeah, sorry. I got it. You didn't watch. He gets it, too. And then they have other tickets and it's hysterical. So awkward. Oh, here we go. Great news. It says you crushed it. They're so nice to me. I hope you get to win the lottery someday.

[Em]

Me too.

[Christine]

Although I will say this is just for the. Let's see.

[Em]

During.

[Christine]

Watch it be on a day we're touring.

[Em]

Whoops.

[Christine]

I'll find out.

[Em]

Well, if you. If you do get to go, let me know how it is, because I. I mean, I've. Allison one time got me tickets to, like, one of their normal games, but.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

And then for some reason, we couldn't do it all of a sudden. I think. I think we were touring. Oh, no. Something. Yeah, but I've never gone to do their, like. I. I don't know. I. I'm very curious to see how it goes because all I've ever seen are, like, Instagram videos.

[Christine]

So, yeah. Yeah, I'm excited. And every year, Blaze's whole family puts their emails in, and so I feel like I'm finally like, nice and child for once, you know?

[Em]

Well, then that's. See, that's your answer there of, like, who else you should bring. You make them fight to the death.

[Christine]

Oh, easy.

[Em]

That was not hard.

[Christine]

And then I go on tour so I don't have to deal with any of the seed now.

[Em]

You know what I'm talking about. I mean, you could also, if you. I know you obviously want to go, but if you really wanted to, like, surprise someone with, like, a really good Christmas gift, you just be like, oh, I didn't tell anybody, but there's two tickets. There is one ticket. There's a ticket for me and another one for whoever gets me.

[Christine]

Yeah, there's a ticket for M. And whoever M allows to come with them anyway.

[Em]

Well, congratulations. That's very exciting.

[Christine]

And the good news is also that I decided to look in my fridge to see if I had any sparkling water, and instead I found this twisted tea from those days when we were frantically editing and I was just, like, scratching my skin off and, like, you know, had hives all the time and was just constantly drinking caffeinated alcohol drinks. Like, it was such a bad time. And it was only a few months ago, but. Oh, it was longer than that. Right? Or was it a few months ago?

[Em]

I don't remember anymore.

[Christine]

It seems like a dream.

[Em]

No, it wasn't. We started in September or August.

[Christine]

Right. So it was a while ago now. Um, but I thought, you know what? Why not? You know, I was gonna say it's Friday, but I just looked at it's Monday. So it's Monday. Sure.

[Em]

If it probably feels like Friday because we're about to go back out on the road, right?

[Christine]

That's right. We're going to New Orleans tomorrow. And yesterday I went to the Wild Kratz live show. That's why I actually drink is I went to See, the Krat brothers live with my child. That's great.

[Em]

How was it?

[Christine]

It was.

[Em]

How was it?

[Christine]

Fine. It was fun.

[Em]

I'm glad you were honest for the kids.

[Christine]

And it was a great show. They put on a great show. I just had to order a wine. And he said, single or double? And I was like, come on, if.

[Em]

You have to ask, you know the answer, babe.

[Christine]

And I said. And my mom said, oh, you're drinking. And I said, yeah, well, I'm going to New Orleans in two days, so I've got to warm up. And the guy goes, yeah, it's like a base. And I said, yeah, like my base tan. I'm getting my base tan before spring break. You know, that's exactly my base tolerance going. I've been cutting back a little bit on drinking now that I've discovered edibles, but today is a twisted tea kind of day, folks. Savannah Bananas things are.

[Em]

It's literally the colors of the Savannah Bananas.

[Christine]

I see. It's like I knew, so that's why I drink. The Krap brothers, mostly Zabumufu, was not there. I was disappointed. However they are doing. He's definitely dead. I mean, there was no puppet Zabumafu either. Okay, so to clarify, there was no real dead Zabufu or. Nor was there.

[Em]

There was a live monkey, like the library or wherever he was.

[Christine]

Let's get into that another time. Anyway, M. Hi. Why do you drink today?

[Em]

I drink because I have yet to get my lottery, my golden ticket from the Savannah Bananas.

[Christine]

I mean, check. They just emailed me like five seconds ago.

[Em]

I. Let me check my phone. I've gotten no update, so. But I got me a feeling that I didn't. I didn't make the cut. That's okay. I'll try again next year.

[Christine]

You have to come to Cincinnati, though, because I think I just went in for just Cincinnati tickets.

[Em]

Oh, yeah, I went in for Rancho Cucamonga.

[Christine]

I just need to. You. Oh. Which are the quakes. Listen, I'm learning for you only that you're the only source I have, but it's. It clicks.

[Em]

Yeah, I don't. I actually. I don't even know if I went into the lottery this year. I think it was last year. I don't know anymore. By the way, if you hear a sound, my foster dog has discovered bones for the very first time, and he's crunching through it at an enormous rate. It sounds like he's rocks.

[Christine]

I didn't want to tell em, because I was like, I saved this for this special Day and I was like, great. I haven't seen the bone.

[Em]

So it's, you know, like a dinosaur bone.

[Christine]

It's like a giant one. Yeah, yeah. He.

[Em]

He'll eat the whole thing.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

I. As long as it gets me through my story, then that's all I care.

[Christine]

Let's do it. Yeah. That he can. Mute yourself.

[Em]

The reason I drink one is because this dog has yet to be adopted. And also, I'm learning the thought we had it nailed. Not a single person. No.

[Christine]

Maybe it's meant to be.

[Em]

Okay. I.

[Christine]

Maybe it's because you complain about him so much.

[Em]

Maybe I. She's just. I just. He's. It's mainly that, like, I know we're gonna be traveling so much this year.

[Christine]

It's probably gonna happen. You're probably gonna, like, train him through puppyhood until he's perfectly calm and ready to be taken in by.

[Em]

Exactly.

[Christine]

Family.

[Em]

Well, because, like, also he's too big to, like, necessarily travel with. And so, like, it's. Yeah, if he were smaller, it wouldn't be a problem. But I'm aware that, like, oh, when I go home for Christmas, I go home for like a month, you know, so it's like I'm already thinking about that stuff and.

[Christine]

Yeah, that was the thing with my dog with Gio, that I could not. That was always the stress, like, traveling. Who's gonna watch him?

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Will he have enough walks? What time? I mean.

[Em]

Well, will he, like, mentally, like, panic that I'm not there?

[Christine]

Yeah. Oh, God. It's like. Yes.

[Em]

So that's. That's my lesson du jour is like, having to. Having to navigate that and like, especially, like, the rescue. Not helping. Like, I'm asking, like, strangers at the dog park if they'll watch him. Like, because I don't fucking have anybody who will watch them.

[Christine]

Well, I will send you my. Did you know? I'll send it to you right now because this is my favorite. I still miss this place. This is where I used to board you. It's the only place he would ever board because he would be too freaked out otherwise. It's in Burbank. And if you tell them Gio, he was one of their first clients ever and a success story according to them because he was so scared of other dogs as a puppy.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

And then he went and over time, he, like, would. This is the only five star review I've ever written on Yelp. Because he would go in and just like, run in and that's big of.

[Em]

Beach to Sandy to say it.

[Christine]

I Know, I know because my brother found the review one time and read it. It was humiliate. It was humiliating. That's how I know that was my only Yelp review. But yeah, they have, they're just awesome. So. And they do boarding and actually that's where my brother in law, Jesse boards his dog Teagan who's like wild. Like I don't. You met Tegan, right? Like she's like.

[Em]

Yeah, I think a long time ago.

[Christine]

She's like a big pit bull and so they take like all breeds, you know, they're not nice. They don't like. So it's an awesome place. So. Okay, great, thank you to them. And they do online booking and everything and it's really easy. So.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

It's called by the way, if anyone wants to know, it's called Petrush in and I just, I've loved them for many years and I still get their emails because I like. Oh, hi guys.

[Em]

Okay, well great. I, Yeah, I can't believe I'm thought that.

[Christine]

Well, of course I haven't. You haven't had a dog. I'm like, why have I never recommended this place? Oh, right.

[Em]

Well, anyway, I, I, the reason I drink in a good way is maybe because I will find a last minute place for him. As of today, I'm literally leaving like tomorrow, so. Or yeah, tomorrow. So it's been the thing with a.

[Christine]

Dog that's different I think is that with a child it's like, oh, everyone's like, oh, I'll like, we'll figure it out. We'll all figure it out. There's things built in with a dog. It's kind of like you just have to look around and go, I have to wing it by myself.

[Em]

Like I'm also terrified of like if I like take him somewhere, I don't want him to think he's been re abandoned. And so like I. Luckily one of our friends, Kai has offered to like stay in the house with him for a couple days. But that's only a couple days of like a week that I'm gonna be gone.

[Christine]

So. Yeah, can you they rover does in house boarding where you can have someone stay at your house too.

[Em]

Okay, thank you.

[Christine]

I've done that before. Yeah, okay. Or just stop ins.

[Em]

Like yeah, the stoppins is what I, I knew of. But okay.

[Christine]

Yeah, they have, they have a situation or set up where you can just pay somebody to stay at your place.

[Em]

Dope. All right, well thanks, Christine. Anyway, that's why I drank because finally.

[Christine]

If you have kids in 10 years. I hope some of my fucking. I won't even remember anymore. This. This is also outdated for me because I'm like. I didn't live near Burbank since I lived in Glendale, you know, it's just so weird. And I'm like, well, if you ever have a kid, I better remember something useful to tell.

[Em]

Please remind me of the daycare in LA when you're done. Yeah, right. I know. I don't know. And I drink my favorite drink, which is hard to find. They only sell it, I think, in, like, new or in neighboring states, is Stewart's Cream Soda. Specifically, I do love a cream soda.

[Christine]

A Stewart's Cream Soda.

[Em]

Stewart's is my.

[Christine]

Didn't we stop there one time on a drive with.

[Em]

I made us. Because we were in an area where they sold the cream soda you made us.

[Christine]

But we all got giant ice cream sundae, so I don't think there was much, like, you know, persuasion involved.

[Em]

Yeah, well, it's. It's my number one favorite. It's a childhood favorite, and I never get to have it. But I. We were just traveling somewhere and they had. I found them at a store randomly, and I was like, oh. And I literally smuggled, like, two cases of them back in my suitcase, so.

[Christine]

I like how you say you smuggled them, even though it's, like, perfectly legal to take cream soda with you.

[Em]

I can't hear you. Anyway.

[Christine]

Fair enough. Fair enough.

[Em]

So, anyway, that's what I drink. That's why I drink. And anything else? Any good things? Christine, going on? Besides banana ball?

[Christine]

Yeah. And twisted tea. I'm getting all jazzed over here. I'm also excited because we're going. I'm leaving early. I'm going to New Orleans tomorrow with my brother. He's gonna join us.

[Em]

Nice.

[Christine]

It's gonna be fun. I'm gonna show him Sesame the. The possum store, because he's never been. And they're vegan and all that good stuff. So. Yeah, I'm excited. It's gonna be a fun week. But I know that with. That there is a lot of logistical stuff, like with the dog and whatever.

[Em]

You got a whole baby, so.

[Christine]

I know. Well, yeah. But fortunately, Blaze is not missing in action. He's. He's here today.

[Em]

You know what else? Not the nerve to say. Let's complain about her since she's not here. She said.

[Christine]

I did. I did just, like, give you a perfect alley for this, so go ahead.

[Em]

She's been. She's been gone since, basically, she got this dog and Then that she said she would have had adopted by the time I got back from tour. Okay. Well, then. And then she was like, oh, well, my. My sister had a baby. I have to go know. I said I'd always go take care of her and the baby. So I'd be gone, what seems indefinitely, so. And also, the dog didn't get adopted. Whoopsies. So now it's just me and this damn dog. She just called me yesterday and went. So apparently my sister and her husband that there's, like, some kerfuffle with, like, the daycare they were going to use. So I. I volunteered to watch the baby when she goes back to work. So I think I'm going to stay here until August.

[Christine]

You know what? August. Okay, wait, so she's gonna be their nanny? Wait, hold on.

[Em]

She's gonna be their nanny?

[Christine]

This is incredible. So hold on. Okay. I love this. This is like she found the only possible, more important thing to be doing.

[Em]

I know.

[Christine]

Taking care of a child than taking care of a dog. It's like, allison, you left me here with this dog. Yeah, but over here, there's a baby. And it's like, well, how do you argue with that?

[Em]

And also, I can't go. Like, she even said, oh, if you want, you could come, like, visit and, like, meet the baby. And I was like, how? There's a dog here that you start driving now.

[Christine]

And you gotta buy a lot of accessories for the car because that dog is not gonna sit still.

[Em]

So anyway, she's watching a baby that's not hers. I'm watching a dog that's not mine. And also, I'll see her maybe in the fall.

[Christine]

I'm watching no one, and I'm fucking living my life. It's wonderful.

[Em]

You know, I'm very.

[Christine]

Going to New Orleans to take a drunk, so I'm really excited. You know what they don't teach you in school is how to do anything with your money that's healthy and normal and, like, panic about it and spend too much of it. It's just a thing that they don't teach you in school. Financial literacy is not where it should be. But that is why Chime is here to help. When you open a Chime checking account, you are one step closer to a better financial future. With no maintenance fees, fee, free overdraft up to 200, and getting paid up to two days early with direct deposit, making progress has never been easier.

[Em]

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[Christine]

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[Em]

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[Christine]

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[Em]

I think now that I actually don't know anymore, I'm going to go with data data.

[Christine]

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[Em]

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[Christine]

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[Em]

No matter how you say it, don't overpay it. Shop data or data [e-mail] ATWD that's mintmobile.com ATWD upfront payment of $45 for.

[Christine]

3 month 5 gigabyte plan required equivalent to $15 a month new customer offer for first 3 months only. Then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees extra C. Mint Mobile for details.

[Em]

So this is. This is a reason for all of you to drink. Folks, here is a spooky story for you this week. This is the Hotel Metlin.

[Christine]

I don't know what, I just love hotels. And last week you did a schoolhouse. And I'm like, oh my God, I love all these, like, thank you. You know how I love an old building.

[Em]

Well, wait for this sentence. Then tell me how you feel. It's a historic hotel and one of the last standing landmarks of the old West.

[Christine]

I mean, like, that makes me want to just cry.

[Em]

There you go. It's great.

[Christine]

What's it called? The hotel?

[Em]

What Hotel? Metlin.

[Christine]

Metlin, okay.

[Em]

It's in Dylan, Montana.

[Christine]

Oh. I was like, it's not familiar to me.

[Em]

Fun fact, before the town was called Dylan, it was called Terminus.

[Christine]

Oh, what do they think of? Why did they change it? What were they thinking?

[Em]

Well, four months after they named it Terminus, they went, we need to change it. So they change it.

[Christine]

Time is what you're saying.

[Em]

It, you know, it is very Terminator. Yeah, it is.

[Christine]

It feels very futuristic.

[Em]

Yeah, it was. So the town was renamed after Sydney Dillon, who coordinated bringing a railroad into town. And as you know, in the 1800s, that was the biggest thing you could do for a city that's bringing the railroad. So that's why it's named Dylan, because he was like, we should bring a railroad in here. I'll do all the nitty gritty and it'll show up.

[Christine]

And that's his name.

[Em]

That's his name.

[Christine]

Gotcha.

[Em]

So before Hotel Metlin, there was the Corinne Hotel. And I haven't heard of one of these, but I'm sure it was like a common thing. The Corinne Hotel was a traveling hotel. Huh. Apparently.

[Christine]

That feels like it's defeats the pro. That feels like a joke, like an I know, April Fool's joke.

[Em]

It's like, just bring a tent, then you know that's the hotel. Right.

[Christine]

You're the hotel. So I don't.

[Em]

Yeah, so the.

[Christine]

I'm traveling, you know what I mean?

[Em]

The Corinne Hotel was, I guess, like a pop up. I think it was literally called a tent hotel. It was made like the walls were just like canvas and cloth that they had just hung up as, like, as like to make walls.

[Christine]

Like makeshift kind of.

[Em]

Yeah. Which, like, doesn't feel very secure. Someone could just walk right into your canvas square, you know? But so, yeah, it was called the Corinne, and it moved alongside the construction of the railroad workers. So as they would.

[Christine]

That's really smart. Okay. Okay.

[Em]

So as they would build a ch of it, the current hotel would be there, Then they would move to the next spot.

[Christine]

So that way, I guess nowadays maybe people have like a tour bus or like a truck with a sleeping loft. It's like, oh, we had.

[Em]

We had one guy with a backpack full of canvas and he would just follow us.

[Christine]

And we all trust in one another because we had to. That nobody would be poking around at each other's canvas.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

But also, like, why would you call it the Hotel Corinne? It sounds like it should be called, like, the Traveling Circus or, like.

[Em]

I know.

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Junior.

[Em]

I. I don't. Yeah, I don't know why at all. But it sounds really makeshift and, like, kind of slapped together. So the hotel, the. The current hotel, its final spot was in Dylan, Montana.

[Christine]

Okay. Yeah.

[Em]

And so the hotel. Yeah, the final spot for the Corinne Hotel was where the. Was where Dylan was created in that spot on the railroad. But at some point, while Hotel Corinne, or Corinne Hotel was up, it caught on fire, which it was made of fucking cloth.

[Christine]

So, yeah, that was bound to happen eventually.

[Em]

And that was in the early 1890s that it burned down. I feel like burned down is like such a dramatic way of saying, like, our shirts caught on fire.

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah, the tent caught a flame.

[Em]

Yeah. So a few years later, a new hotel was built, I think, because the railroad was finally, like, finished. And so it's like, oh, well, now the people are going to be coming in here. You know, this tale as old as time. Now it's, we need the big train stop, so we should have a hotel right next to the train stop.

[Christine]

Canvas squares. What are we gonna do?

[Em]

Well, enter Joe Metlin. And he was a local businessman, as they all are, and as they all are, he wanted to build the main hotel of the city. So, of course, he put it closest to the train stop. And like all the others, he wanted to draw in people and he wanted it to be the most luxurious hotel with all the modern day fixins.

[Christine]

Oh, you don't say.

[Em]

I do again for the 428th time.

[Christine]

Hey. Clarified, asked and answered.

[Em]

So it was originally called the Metlin Hotel and Saloon, and it was built in 1898, and it is actually on the same spot that the current hotel used to be. Oh, it was three stories. Some sources said it was up to 60 rooms. Some people said it was like, up to like 40 or 50. They spent up to. Again, some sources, it's between 1 million and 3 million dollars today is what they spent on this hotel. So let's say around 2 million.

[Christine]

Yeah, we can average.

[Em]

Sure. It was over 30, 000 square feet. And it had a little tower on top, which is fun.

[Christine]

Oh, I love a tower.

[Em]

As for the modern day fixins, it also had plumbing, electric lighting, both hot and cold water.

[Christine]

Oh, my.

[Em]

Heated rooms because they had a radiator system.

[Christine]

I like how you say hot and cold even. So.

[Em]

Sorry. Cold and hot.

[Christine]

There we go. It's Montana. I feel like they probably had cold water right outside.

[Em]

Anyway. It's called the stream. Yeah. And they also had, I guess, like weirdly thick walls, so it was better for insulation.

[Christine]

Oh, okay. I was like.

[Em]

So that hot water was going nowhere.

[Christine]

Aha, I see.

[Em]

So anyway, a lot of hot and cold things are happening in this. I love this hotel.

[Christine]

So exciting.

[Em]

The hotel also had an intercom call system, so each room had its own call button. And the original equipment is still installed into the wall, so I don't think it works anymore. But if you go in, you can see it.

[Christine]

Oh, you know, I love like an old little button that used to do something or a bell.

[Em]

You know what gets me going is when we go to one of those hotels that has the old mail system where you can see the drop down on the wall.

[Christine]

It's so cool.

[Em]

It gets me going.

[Christine]

It's so cool. I just love. I just want to live. I just want to be an old house.

[Em]

I always forget that, like, maybe it's actually still in use. And then I watch people put things in there and I'm like, you just lost your letter.

[Christine]

I. What are you doing? No, I just mailed a postcard in there and it arrived at my home for Leona. So I can confirm. Not all of them, I guess, but I asked the front desk first, but.

[Em]

Yeah, that's really nice of you to have done that. You could have just brought it home and then like shoved it in your own mailbox.

[Christine]

Well, I did think of that, but I. This is gonna sound strange, but it was less likely that I would have remembered it to take it out of my backpack than it was to just.

[Em]

Mail it through an old system.

[Christine]

But take the stamp from the front desk guy who was four feet away, he took it out of a drawer, handed it to me, and I just put it in there. I said, okay. Leona. And I was like, that. That was easy. If mailing things was that easy. Stamps.com.

[Em]

That'S not as weird as you think it sounds. I also would have done that exact same thing.

[Christine]

O. I was like, I. Because usually I just end up with all the postcards at home and I never mail them. But like, it just felt special that Leona would get mail while I was gone.

[Em]

Oh, that's nice.

[Christine]

I tried. I tried for once, you know.

[Em]

That's precious.

[Christine]

Thank you.

[Em]

Where were we? Oh, this place is just full of electricity. Great. By the way, fun fact, Even the White House got electricity only six years before this hotel.

[Christine]

Oh, my God. This is giving such like, why does the schoolhouse get plumbing and I don't vibes the way that that's been brought.

[Em]

Up in so many episodes recently. Like, everyone's got a toilet except for like the average American.

[Christine]

Yeah. And the president.

[Em]

And the president. On top of this building being a hotel and a saloon, there was also a shop in there. There was a small gambling hall, there was a restaurant, and there were bars. So I think it was like the classic 1800s hotel next to a train depot where it's like this is a one stop shop for the entire town. And it was essentially trying to public.

[Christine]

Square kind of know what you're getting. Yeah.

[Em]

So in the 1980s, really time traveling. Almost 100 years later, this place is officially on the National Register of Historic Places. But as the railroad system became more obsolete and there were other ways to travel, less people would check into the hotel. Less people were coming through. So the hotel as a hotel, closed in 2008. But the bars and the accoutrements stayed open. You just couldn't sleep there anymore. So.

[Christine]

Okay, okay, okay.

[Em]

The bars are still open and they have like a dance floor. The website, like really boasts that they have like karaoke Thursdays and pool and foosball. Love a foosball.

[Christine]

Love a foosball.

[Em]

The hotel rooms for a moment transitioned into apartments, but I don't think that's the case anymore. I think now they're just empty. But they maybe like rent them out to like staff of the bars.

[Christine]

Ooh. Yeah. I'd be curious to see what's in some of the ones that haven't been touched in a long time. You know, like some that have just been kind of left.

[Em]

Oh, I will say some of them have been renovated. And one of them was renovated to look exactly like the original hotel rooms in the 1890s. I knew you would have that response.

[Christine]

Give me also the intercom please.

[Em]

I would love if they had like even just like a reenact or like press the call button.

[Christine]

I was gonna say, like, I don't even want to talk to anyone. Like don't let anyone answer it. Remember that hotel in. I just want to. You remember the hotel in. It was Toronto or Vancouver. I think it was Vancouver. I forget. But we were at the hotel and you, we took a photo and you were wearing your like insane. It was Vancouver. You were wearing your insane like Canada out superhero outfit. And we were sitting in those chairs and like I think you picked up the phone and it was like front desk. Or one of us did. And we like immediately hung up and then they called the number back and we all stared at the phone like we didn't think it would work. Like we act. We were like such Gen Z nonsense like for old millennial. We were kind of like staring at the phone like, I can't believe someone answered that.

[Em]

To be fair, you have to often press the front desk.

[Christine]

But we didn't press a button. We just picked it up and they were like, hello, front desk, what can we do for you?

[Em]

And we were like, Jesus Christ.

[Christine]

Like as if, you know.

[Em]

Yeah, I don't know.

[Christine]

I don't know what we thought was going to happen, but it was very unsettling.

[Em]

Well, this place has an 1890s room and I do wish that they would hire just one person. It's like a one man show of a living history museum. And I wish they just made him just live in that room all day and I could just watch him to watch it.

[Christine]

Yeah, that would be so cool.

[Em]

Well, the building had a lot of renovations done in 2011. That's the last time it did. And it reopened at that moment as the Hotel Metlin. But here's the thing. Still didn't reopen as a hotel. It just got renovations done, I think. So like structurally it could remain as a bar and remain as like a dance floor. So it's still a like defunct, abandoned hotel. It just has other buildings attached to it or other. Oh, I see businesses attached to it. But that's kind of it for the history. So as for the ghosts, they say that there's a spirit of a man upstairs who has told off investigators. He doesn't like, they've gotten EVPs of like, fuck you, get out the classics.

[Christine]

The usuals.

[Em]

The usual. Speaking of usuals, who could I possibly mention as a ghost? Here's a lady in white.

[Christine]

Hey.

[Em]

She is seen at the bar. She's seen floating on the dance floor. She's really vibing. Love that. Apparently she's very peaceful and vibey and smiles and is kind.

[Christine]

You never know. Wait, was she a woman in red or white? I forget why. Okay. I was gonna say, with a woman in red, you never know what you're gonna get. A woman in white is usually pretty chill. I feel.

[Em]

I feel like she doesn't even know that she's a trope at this point.

[Christine]

Right.

[Em]

Just living her life. Lady in red. Lady in red wants the attention.

[Christine]

She knows what she's doing. Yeah.

[Em]

Sultry.

[Christine]

Yeah. Oh, big time. She's the salsa dancer on the emojis.

[Em]

Now you understand what I'm saying?

[Christine]

I fully do.

[Em]

People have seen her also in bathroom mirrors.

[Christine]

Yikes.

[Em]

Oh, and she's also been seen directly above the bar, which happens to be room 19. So I think they think room 19 is haunted when it seems like above the bar.

[Christine]

Like, she stands on the bar and I was like, I had her pegged all wrong.

[Em]

She's actually Spider Man. She just.

[Christine]

I thought, like, oh, the red. The lady in red's gonna be danced on the bar. But here comes lady White just climbing on up, proving me completely wrong.

[Em]

I. You know, I don't understand what it is that she, like, teleports only, like, vertically.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

But apparently people see her in room 19, and I wonder if the room above room 19 also has activity.

[Christine]

Could be interesting. Yeah. Maybe that's just her little plot of land.

[Em]

She just likes the up and down of it all.

[Christine]

I get it.

[Em]

In the back bar, there's a second woman, and she has a black bonnet on. And people think that she might be the previous owner's wife still supervising the building. And then there's also an apparition, your favorite of a man in a cowboy hat.

[Christine]

Oh, you know, I love it. I mean, I was hoping with Montana.

[Em]

I would hope that he's the one that people would see in that reenactment we've discovered that we created.

[Christine]

Yes. That we invented in our heads. It does not exist. Yeah.

[Em]

I hope he, like, just takes his hat off and hangs it on the hook. And he just sits there and does a deep breath. He just goes. After all, he travels.

[Christine]

Imagine the. The boots, one at a time. Oh, you know, really nice. Really nice stuff, the boots. Really smooth it. Smoothing. Really soothing and smoothing.

[Em]

For some reason. It is, though. People also smell cigar smoke in the bar area, but also it's a bar area, so, like, maybe it's like present day smoke.

[Christine]

Yeah. It could just be, like, when you Sit on the cushion and it. Like poofs.

[Em]

Yeah. Like on a school bus. And like, all the old residual dust.

[Christine]

Ew. Ew. Yes. Gross.

[Em]

Well, people have also had items go missing. They've had items moving on their own. People have literally seen items levitating a couple times. People have heard voices stomping, knocking, spurs scraping the floor, furniture dragging. And then the doors not only opening and closing, but locking and unlocking themselves first.

[Christine]

I don't love that. Okay.

[Em]

I hate that.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

My favorite. One employee found a bunch of steaks that he just put in the freezer. Placed themselves down the hallway.

[Christine]

Wait on the floor.

[Em]

Like, he put them in the freezer. And a couple minutes later, he was walking down the hall, and all the steaks were on the hallway floor by themselves. What the fuck? Disgusting. Also, like, now nobody can eat any.

[Christine]

Of that steak now it's like, what the. Now what do I do? That's a lot of expensive food.

[Em]

It was elk steak, you know? That was expensive.

[Christine]

That is definitely very expensive. Even in Montana.

[Em]

One group decided to use a Ouija board here, of course. And the first thing they got on the Ouija board was, I don't want you here.

[Christine]

Okay. Okay.

[Em]

Very direct.

[Christine]

Noted.

[Em]

Yep. This one. This is my favorite. This is super creepy. A group was in the. That little tower I mentioned. They were in the tower room, and when they went in, all the windows were closed. By the time they left, they noticed that all the windows had quietly opened themselves and no one had noticed.

[Christine]

I just got chills.

[Em]

Isn't that disgusting?

[Christine]

Horrible. And the fact that, like, nobody heard it. It's not. Probably not a big tower, right?

[Em]

Like, no, it's not. It's like a room, like, but also. How weird is that? That, like, it just got chills?

[Christine]

I know. Me too. Why? I don't know. That's just creepy.

[Em]

But you know that whoever did that, did that thing where, like, it put blinders on them so they wouldn't even notice?

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah.

[Em]

Didn't want them to know, kind of.

[Christine]

Or it just, like, happened without. Without movement. It just, like, they just, like, shifted, you know, in time. Gross.

[Em]

Although eerie as many of these activities are, according to interviews with the press, people who work here have said that the ghosts are mostly kind.

[Christine]

Mostly? Well, that's a concerning word.

[Em]

However, the third floor is said to have darker energy. In fact, the third floor has been closed off and locked up, padlocked for decades. What? Allegedly. Because it's so haunted that it wasn't safe for people to go into. It's like They, I guess, had access. They could go in if they needed to, to, like, change smoke detectors or whatever, but they just padlock it for, like, they're like, purposes.

[Christine]

Hey, it's super not safe and bad in here. Oh, but you are an electrician. Or you need to change the light bulb. You're an.

[Em]

You need a ladder to stand on. Okay. Yeah.

[Christine]

Okay, bye. We're gonna close the door behind you.

[Em]

Imagine being the electrician and you watch them unpad lock the room first, and then they go, okay, go.

[Christine]

Then they're like, okay, go. And then they run away. Yeah, I. I feel like that's not good. Nothing good.

[Em]

So anyway, they say, oh, no, all the ghosts are fine. We don't have any, like, terribly scary experiences. However, the third floor allegedly is terrifying.

[Christine]

As long as it's, like, contained to a space that I can actively avoid. That's excellent. You know, like, that's fine. That's fine.

[Em]

Well, guess who hears about this locked up third floor. It has to.

[Christine]

Well, I wonder who could it be?

[Em]

Well, let's just put it this way. You will be getting answers, Answers, answers. So he. There's. So basically he, of course, zb. He shows up and he talks to the bar owner who is still having to, like, hang out in this building all the time, named Philly. Love that name.

[Christine]

Oh, that's a cute name.

[Em]

I think it's like Farley for Phyllis or something.

[Christine]

But Philly is cool.

[Em]

So Philly is freaked out about the third floor and is like, I'm not going up there. Of course, that does not stop Zach from trying heavily. He's on one in this episode. Something's. His energy is crazy.

[Christine]

Oh, boy.

[Em]

He's really pushy in a lot of ways.

[Christine]

Oh, no, he's already that at a base level.

[Em]

You know, when he, like, man splains. Like, there'll be a whole bit where the whole thing is, I'm just mansplaining something to you. Like a dream is when the. Do you think he's explaining things that aren't necessary?

[Christine]

And then at the end, you're, like, nodding along, like, duh. And then two seconds later you're like, wait, I don't even think that's right. Like, it's like. It's like, wait a minute. What are you even saying?

[Em]

There was a lot of that in here. Like, he did a whole bit on, like, explaining how museums are like. I think he said, museums are like a ghost hunter's dream, because that's where you can access all the history of.

[Christine]

There's Old artifacts inside it.

[Em]

Thanks. And then he talked about how ever. Oh, he used some fishing analogy about how you can fish for attached items.

[Christine]

I.

[Em]

Anyway, he was in a different headspace this time around, clearly. So he's like, philly, you have to go up to the third floor with me. And she's like, I'm literally not going. And he's like, but you should. You have to. And he. She's like, I'm not going. They get to the second floor, and Philly's like, yeah, well, I was up here. I was cutting carpet in the hallway one time, and then I saw this massive shadow behind me, and I got so scared, I accidentally nicked myself with a knife. And then, of course, this is what he says after that. This is a quote. So what we want to know is, is this something. Oh, sorry. Hang on. I have to get in my own head. He doesn't speak total English, so I have to, like, figure it out.

[Christine]

We haven't given you, like, the trailer. You usually need your private trailer to, like, get in character. I'm sorry.

[Em]

Okay, so. Thank you. Imagine Philly is just scared, just like Nickardy. I mean, it looked. It sounded like it was a bad.

[Christine]

Cut, but still, those rug cutters, like, suck. Like, they're like those exacto knife. Yeah. So you cut yourself out. Okay. And you're also scared. Yeah.

[Em]

What we want to know is if this. Something influenced her to do so. Does it feed off pain and blood from the living?

[Christine]

She didn't say infl. She didn't say, I sliced my own knee open. She said she got scared. Right.

[Em]

She made it sound. He makes it sound like she was.

[Christine]

Possessed and, like, stabbed herself with a box cutter. Like, he's really. I mean, like, it's one thing. Like, we talk in hyperbole. We're Geminis. But, like, man, sometimes he takes. Takes the truth and goes in a direction that I go.

[Em]

Does it feed off the blood and the pain of the living?

[Christine]

Does it, Zach? You tell me.

[Em]

Go back to talking about museums for a second.

[Christine]

And also, stop asking hypothetical questions just because there's no real answer. You're scaring everybody.

[Em]

So then the bar manager. Not the owner, but the guy, the GM who just runs it, his name's Bailey. He said this is actually very creepy. He said one time he was working the bar. It was a completely full night. It was popping. And then all of a sudden, he sees this dark cloud come over him. And then all of a sudden, nobody's in the bar anymore.

[Christine]

What?

[Em]

And, like, as if time Shifted. And. And it only lasted for a couple minutes. It sounds like he, like, blinked, and all of a sudden everybody was back, but in a moment, he was, like, in a liminal space of the bar being totally empty.

[Christine]

And then they came back. Yeah, I thought it was, like, maybe he had had a fugue state or something and was dissociated for a few hours, and then it was just closing time.

[Em]

It wasn't. It wasn't clearly explained, but it's one of those two things either of them I hate.

[Christine]

It's not good.

[Em]

He then also said this, I'm sure just, like, got Zach going all the way through. But Bailey said, like, it's possible I was possessed. You know, Zach, you know why?

[Christine]

You know why you said that? Because Zach said, but is it possible, though? But is it technically possible? Is it technically possible? He said, I guess it's technically possible. And they said, nailed it.

[Em]

That's exactly what happened.

[Christine]

Oh, I didn't even think they would have shown that part. Okay. Sometimes they don't show it.

[Em]

Yeah. You would think they would cut all that out just so Bailey could say I was possessed. But no, Zach literally said, do you think it's possible that that was a possession? And then Bailey said, I think it's.

[Christine]

Possible he's a total nutter. He asked that every time. And then people are like, I don't think so. And he's like, but is it literally technically possible? And it's like, okay, are you seventh grader?

[Em]

Like, Zach also said, could this be. Could the blood and the pain. Could it be feeding off that? I bet he asked Philly, and Philly was like, no. And then he just used it as a. As a phrase later.

[Christine]

But could it technically, no.

[Em]

And he was like, we'll just say it in a voiceover later when you're not in the room. So I say that.

[Christine]

Just write that down, because it's really good. Yeah.

[Em]

So Bailey's also been hearing growling in his room, because of course, he lives here. And not only that, he's the only person renting a room right now in the whole building.

[Christine]

God help me.

[Em]

So he sees himself as, like, the caretaker? Yeah, I think in one interview he did. He even said, like in the Shining. And I'm like, okay, yeah. So he lives there by himself, and he started hearing growling in his room at night.

[Christine]

Right.

[Em]

So of course, they have to investigate that as well. So back to Philly, who owns the entire building, I think, right now. She says that the previous owner was her friend Dorothy. Dorothy also lived on the property at the time and died here in her room that she lived in. And she would also experience things. So even Dorothy knew this place was haunted. So Philly says one time before Dorothy died, I guess she had, like, a terminal illness. And Dorothy said, when I go, what's something that you want of mine to have? Like, what should I put aside for you? And Philly said, oh, Dorothy, when you go, I don't need anything. I just want you to give me a sign that you're still with us. And Dorothy said, okay, I'll break a glass for you. And then a couple days later, after Dorothy died, in the room where Dorothy died of this building, Philly hears a glass slide itself all the way across the bar and then shatter. During this interview, the team even got an EVP that is, like, weirdly clear. And Philly was like, that's Dorothy's voice.

[Christine]

Oh, my God. It's always. It's always so interesting to see people who knew the spirit, you know what I mean? Like, who had actual lifetime experience.

[Em]

She did seem really, actually freaked out. Yeah.

[Christine]

Wow, that's crazy.

[Em]

Bailey then, the one who is living there right now, he says that a night Dorothy actually comes to his dreams.

[Christine]

Oh, good. She's busy.

[Em]

And Bailey says. Bailey says. Like, I think she's saying thank you for taking care of the place now that I'm not here, of course, Zach has to interject. And he goes, well, you know, she's coming into your room, and I know you shower up there. And who else. Who else knows what? Who knows what else you're doing up there? And he's. And she's coming into your room.

[Christine]

What? What do you mean? Like, the things any person does in their. Stop being weir weird.

[Em]

So poor Bailey was like, I think she's just grateful, but, yeah, like, I'm.

[Christine]

Trying to respect her memory. Don't make it weird.

[Em]

So the next day, they are back in the building, and they're shown all these items that construction workers found inside the walls. And during. It's like, coins and a cup and spurs, which is interesting, but they. While they're looking at this stuff, they actually heard a sound come from the area where these items were found. Zach makes a big, big deal about it, and it's not that insane, but it's fun to watch. You would have gotten a kick out of watching him, like, way overreact.

[Christine]

Oh, I would. I. I would. And I will later today, so don't worry.

[Em]

Well, by the way, if anyone wants to know, it was on Discovery Plus. Specifically, it's season 16, episode 7 everywhere else it's a completely different number.

[Christine]

Okay. It always happens like that.

[Em]

I don't know why. Well, so while setting up for the night, Billy hears someone whisper in his ear. He hears his name. Everyone hears a loud bang and then a scream, which is actually really creepy because they're all in the same room watching.

[Christine]

Scream is wild. Yeah.

[Em]

They are all in nerve center together and watch it from a camera in a different room. And you can hear, like, bang and then a scream.

[Christine]

It's like. It's very creepy, especially with like a bang or something. It's like you can always sort of write that off as like a car backfiring or like something falling. But a scream is like a obviously a distinctive human sound like that. Unless it's, you know, something like a mountain lion. But it seems like probably not inside the hotel.

[Em]

I don't know. It's Montana. Maybe they have something. You know what?

[Christine]

Good point.

[Em]

So Zach then feels something grab his arm, and then they hear running above them. And at the same time, the ovulus says, ran, look and found. As if, like, they heard running. They looked and then like, oh, you found me. Then the obvious says great Nana, which they think is a relative of Dorothy's. And then they. And then they get something moving on the thermal imager, which they think might be Great Nana. I don't know. They make a big deal out of it. I don't really understand. Then this is a creepier part for me. The ovulus says malevolent, and then it says the word closet, and Zach goes, if you're malevolent, then you know things about us. Like, can you tell us how old we are? And the ovilus Immediately says 40. Immediately.

[Christine]

And Zach's like. Like, I'm actually 39.

[Em]

Have you seen this episode, Christine?

[Christine]

Literally.

[Em]

Okay, he literally. Okay, I did the math. He. He literally even says in the episode he was born in 77. And this episode came out in 2016, he was 39. And. And he points at Aaron and, like, yells at him. It's like. It's talking about you. You're the only one here that's 40. You're the only one.

[Christine]

Such a little.

[Em]

You're gonna be 40, like, tomorrow, babe.

[Christine]

In, like a day. But relax. God, what is his star sign again?

[Em]

Annoying. That's what it is.

[Christine]

Sagittarius. Is that right?

[Em]

I don't remember.

[Christine]

It just feels like it is.

[Em]

Nope, not a Gemini. Thank God. I don't know.

[Christine]

Are you sure? Affiliate with him.

[Em]

I don't. I Don't think he's a Gemini.

[Christine]

I think we would know. I think people would remember for that. Oh, of course.

[Em]

Scorpio.

[Christine]

His birthday's April 5th. He's a Aries. Of course.

[Em]

And we're recording this on his birthday weekend. Oh, Happy birthday.

[Christine]

Happy 45th birthdays. Happy 50th birthday, Zach.

[Em]

Happy birthday. So anyway, he hears 40. He assumes it's obviously not about him, even though he's like, this ghost is rounding up to everybody's age. Like you.

[Christine]

Yeah, it's like it's. It's a machine. It has to just. Yeah. Shut up.

[Em]

Yeah, yeah. So then they find a set of stairs up to a single room. And Aaron is like, something feels really bad here. And as they're all watching Aaron go up the stairs, because of course he's the one going up there, they hear a very loud crash nearby and they realize something moved in the closet. The other word that the thing said.

[Christine]

It was Great Nana.

[Em]

It was 40 coming up really quick.

[Christine]

Oh, no, Grim Reaper's here.

[Em]

So of course, Zach says, I mean, this is like, I really almost thought about making you watch the clip because.

[Christine]

I mean, I feel like I already have sort of of in my own subconscious mind somewhere.

[Em]

It's on another level, like versus what he usually is. Like, he was like, he clearly just did some push ups or something and the testosterone was really dumb because he says after, like, I mean, it was a loud fucking crash, by the way. Like, when I heard it, I jumped. Like, it's a loud fucking crash that happened in the closet. Right as Aaron's going up the stairs, Zach goes, this is a quote. Let's all leave.

[Christine]

Except Aaron, Honestly, it really feels like m on any ghost hunt we do. It feels like you, no offense, but full offense meant by that.

[Em]

Well, then Aaron says, I literally says I don't want to. And Zach says, and I quote, face it, you want to just try it. And then. And then has a voiceover. I feel we should also seal him in by padlocking the door so that his natural fear will attract the spirits even further. Is that insane?

[Christine]

Hey, bud, I hope you're really having some.

[Em]

Is he okay?

[Christine]

Introspective thoughts now that Aaron's been almost murdered by his own wife. Like maybe take a minute and. And back the off for a second. I don't know.

[Em]

Literally the next clip is Zach actually padlocking him in. And Aaron didn't know what was going to happen.

[Christine]

Like, that's unhinged. So then Aaron, it's fully hinged, you know, What?

[Em]

I mean, I. I totally know. And you can see Aaron, like, try to open the door, and it's locked, and he's freaking out. You can see him actually. Like, I've never heard him.

[Christine]

That natural fear. It's his natural fear, and it serves as a beacon to demonic entities.

[Em]

You can hear him actually going, no, no, no, no, no. I don't want to do this.

[Christine]

What's so wrong with that?

[Em]

And then Zach goes, what you're doing right now is gonna, like, bring the spirits out.

[Christine]

He's fucking insane. That's, like, not a good friend.

[Em]

No, it's not a good friend at all. Like, he's clearly scared. Like, it's not.

[Christine]

It's one thing to convince a friend, like, go in there. I dare you. It's another thing to be like, oh, you said you don't want to, and you're upset and afraid. Why don't I lock the door?

[Em]

I mean, he's like. He's. It's not a bet anymore. Like, Aaron's scary.

[Christine]

No.

[Em]

And then Aaron is, like, up there by himself doing a spirit box session. He's like, I'm scared to have my back against any of the open rooms. Should I be scared? Spirit box immediately says yes. Aaron starts smelling sulfur. He starts seeing things. Like, he thought that, like, they came back, and he was like, oh, you guys came back and there was nobody there. He starts hearing a rumbling sound. I've never seen him so scared in any episode. He was actually like, I want out of here so bad. On his way out, they realize that there's a random bowl sitting in the middle of the floor. Like a cereal bowl or something.

[Christine]

What?

[Em]

And they never put it there. And they're realizing the rumbling sound Aaron heard might have been it rolling towards him. Ew.

[Christine]

I know exactly that sound.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

What the.

[Em]

They then decide to go to Bailey's room, because, remember, he was like, I hear growling. So they use your favorite. The paranormal puck Badass. Which lets you. I'm not kidding. Text ghosts.

[Christine]

Yeah. Yeah. It's my favorite thing. And it really works.

[Em]

Works well. So they text. What? Or do you like that Bailey lives here? And then the. The. They got it. They got a text back saying, necessary.

[Christine]

Oh, interesting. So they've kind of come to that agreement, at least. Okay.

[Em]

They say, what is your name? They get the response, help. And then they say, how can. How can we help? And then it said, phone. And then they hear footsteps in the room, which seems to distract a lot of people. People. Yeah.

[Christine]

They're like, oh, the ghost Is like, damn it.

[Em]

They ask what their. What their name is, and Puck says, Karen. Then they get the words tub and crossover, so they think that someone named Karen died in the tub.

[Christine]

Okay, sure. I could. Again that Mad Libs. Yeah.

[Em]

It has no context to the rest of the story, and they made a big deal out of it. Then Zach apparently has woe is me no energy, and needs Aaron to lift him up. Up so they can go outside.

[Christine]

Because he's like that kid at the sleepover that was sometimes me, where it's like, you're clearly just mad that no one's paying attention or you feel left out, so you're gonna, like, act out, you know, I feel like he does that so often, and I recognize it because it's something that I used to do and I don't respect about myself. And I see it, and I'm like, that's. I know what you're doing. Like, you just want more attention on you. It's just. Wow.

[Em]

I feel like there was one friend in my friend group who did that quite often growing up. And I remember thinking, you okay? What's going on?

[Christine]

No, I mean, as someone who did it maybe once or twice and then was like, okay, this actually is not the way to be. Like, no, it's not. Yeah, it's definitely. There's something. Something going on there.

[Em]

Well, Zach doesn't. He's like, I can't get up. Aaron, help me. And then, like, he needs Aaron to lift him. First of all, Aaron's been through a lot. Let's put that way. Why do you need help getting up all of a sudden? Like, after. First of all, if my friend padlocked me in the floor that I was terrified of, and he's like, help me up. I'd kick you again while you're down.

[Christine]

I'd be like, yeah, I'll help you right back into the padlock. You.

[Em]

Yeah. Like, get yourself up. Like, talk about who. Whose energy should have been sucked out of their soul tonight. Me. I was upstairs. Not you, sitting here texting a ghost.

[Christine]

You're texting a ghost. Relax.

[Em]

So then literally all of them. I've never seen this happen. But they were all too scared to go in the basement.

[Christine]

They were all too scared either.

[Em]

So they all.

[Christine]

No, no. I've never seen that.

[Em]

They literally. They're even laughing about. They're like, I'm too fucking scared. So they decide that they're gonna pull straws and someone has to go down there by themselves. And guess what? Aaron is still part of this pool like, shouldn't he be exempt?

[Christine]

No, he should get exempt. Yeah, he should be exempt for sure.

[Em]

Well, so Jay has to go down. Okay.

[Christine]

I was gonna say, if Aaron pulls it, it's bullshit. I don't believe this for a fucking second. Okay.

[Em]

At the very least, on the way into the basement, I don't know what Jay's deal was. Like, he was acting like something was up. But I also feel like maybe he was trying to dramaticize it so he didn't have to go.

[Christine]

I mean, he's not usually on camera solo either, so I wonder if he's like, okay, here's me going solo. Like, yeah, he's not usually, like, the only character on screen.

[Em]

Well, so Jay has to go. And on the way into the basement, two different times in the dark, he, like, falls. Because it's so dark, he doesn't know.

[Christine]

Where he's going because it's so haunted.

[Em]

Yeah, well, he's acting like he fell and, like, broke his shoulder or something. Because he falls. He goes like. And I'm like, what's your deal? Like, get up.

[Christine]

Are you. Are you on your deathbed?

[Em]

But so, yeah, he was act. Acting like he had the flu and had to go to work or something. But so he. He falls on the way to the basement. Then he gets in the basement, falls again in the basement. And at some point, like, they're just like, whatever. This guy's like, either faking it or doesn't want to be down there or, like, can't see. So then the last thing you hear on the episode is a voiceover from Zach going, you can only watch a man fall down so many times before throwing in the towel.

[Christine]

He's such a dick. He's such an.

[Em]

Didn't volunteer to, like, take a spot or anything.

[Christine]

Like, what are just falling over and making your friends carry you? Like, it's not more impressive.

[Em]

He's like, oh, help me get up. That man fell. Throw in the towel.

[Christine]

Yeah, please.

[Em]

Anyway, that is the hotel metlin, and that was bananas.

[Christine]

I can't believe. I don't. I mean, maybe. I mean, probably I did watch that episode at some point during a drunken state with you, because it's just. Or maybe I just know his. Maybe I'm like an AI bot that was fed, like, 40 episodes, and I can spit out a script. You know what I mean?

[Em]

It was weird how. How accurately you predicted multiple things.

[Christine]

I know. I like to think it's because I've seen it, but it might also just be. I just know I know too much. About it.

[Em]

It was odd. I, I feel like next time I should just give you a, like a, a, a blank slate. And when I say there was an episode, what happened and you just mad.

[Christine]

Libs it a little bit and I'll try to fill in the blanks.

[Em]

Yes please.

[Christine]

I don't know if you get allergies. M. Do you? Cuz I do. It sucks, doesn't it?

[Em]

Guess what I have allergies of.

[Christine]

Of what?

[Em]

Dogs.

[Christine]

A dog. Well, you know what? So inconvenient. If you do need to see an allergist, which it seems like you might because it looks like that dog's not going anywhere. I think you should check out Zoc doc because they have some good options and they might be able to see you within like a few hours. Like today.

[Em]

I really, I really have just praised ZocDoc wherever I go for several years. ZocDoc is a free app and website where you can search and compare high quality in network doctors and click to instantly book an appointment. We're talking about booking in network appointments with more than a hundred thousand doctors across every specialty from mental health to dental health, primary care to urgent care and more. And I love them. I've used them for all of my medications. I've used them to get me into skin doctors, into foot doctors, into my. Actually my primary care. I physician I found on zocdoc. So.

[Christine]

Oh see, I mean they've got it all folks. Okay, appointments made through ZocDoc also happen super fast, typically within just 24 to 72 hours, sometimes even on the same day. So stop putting off those doctor's appointments and go to Zocdoc.com drink to find and instantly book a top rated doctor today.

[Em]

That's z o c-o c.com drink zocdoc.com drink.

[Christine]

Go on a rant. It says. Well, don't mind if I do. I'd love to go on a rant now. It gives us options here. Night sweats, back pain. How about all of them? Do we have time to rant about all of them? And them.

[Em]

If you want me to be honest and tell you all of my woes when I'm not using a Helix mattress. We don't have time.

[Christine]

No, we don't have time. Yeah, we're very fortunate that Helix is a sponsor. Fortunately I discovered them before they were ever a sponsor. So I was extra excited when they came along. I have sworn by this mattress for years. I've noticed on my especially my wearable like tech at night I Sleep so much better than I ever used to. The back pain, which used to be a serious issue for me, is gone. It's just a lot of things that I love about my Helix mattress mattress. And you know what? I could rant all day, but I'm just gonna let them have this one.

[Em]

Go to helixsleep.com drink for 20 off site wide. That's helixsleep.com drink for twenty off site wide. Helix sleep.com Drake, you know, I got this dog over here, but I'll tell you one thing I don't have is a cat. And if I had a cat, it'd be, it'd be a lot more work if I had the old school type of litter and it was all stinky and I had to worry about the cat's health and all sorts of things like that. I don't gotta do that, especially with a dog. But you do. And how's that going for you, Chris?

[Christine]

Yeah, well, thankfully we've, we've found the right way. A long time ago we don't have that litter box stink in our house anymore. We used to. And I will say with an old house especially, everything's still kind of like cramped and not, you know, insular. And so when you do have a litter box stink. Oh, it's it, it makes itself known. It makes its presence.

[Em]

Everyone knows.

[Christine]

Yeah, everyone knows. So we moved the litter box all around the house. But the only thing that has really helped is Pretty Litter. Pretty Litter's non clumping formula traps odor and moisture. It's ultra absorbent, lightweight, low dust and 16 pound bag works for up to a month.

[Em]

Pretty Litter also gives a peace of mind. Like I said, it changes color to indicate early signs of potential illnesses in your cat like urinary tract infections, kidney issues and more.

[Christine]

Yeah. And it comes straight to your door. So it's super easy. Pretty Litter keeps my house smelling fresh and clean. Try it and you'll love it. Go to PrettyLitter.com to SA20 on your first order and get a free cat toy. That's Pretty Litter.com ATWD for 20 off your first order and a free cat toy. Terms and conditions apply. C site for details. Well, I am sorry to say that this is one of the most up stories I've ever covered.

[Em]

Oh God, I'm sorry. I know what happens. I thought, I thought you had a limit, Christine. I thought you had fault. How did you discover this? What happened?

[Christine]

So what happened is that I was texting with Saoirse about like potential ideas and I'd gotten some feedback on Reddit and stuff, just about, like, what people. Well, I wasn't getting feedback, but I was just, like, reading what people were interested in, and I was like, oh, those are some ideas I hadn't thought of because a lot of people said, like, oh, you know, the really popular cases that. And I don't pick popular cases on purpose. I just kind of pick what interests me. But this one I found in a. On a subreddit that was basically like, what are some cases that are less well known that you still haunt you? And I will say this one. And so I. I gave that subreddit, or at least that thread, sorry, to. To sa. And said like, hey, let me know if anything here is of interest. And then they picked this story. And I went, well, I should have done a better vetting process. But no, then they were like, I don't have to cover it. And I was like, no, it's fine. I do know the story already. There is actually a really good movie about this that I rewatched, and it's. It's a classic, unfortunately, because it's one of the earliest true crime stories I remember learning about, but it is. It's not good. It's really. I mean, it's really bad.

[Em]

Okay, great. Any. Any. I mean, not that I feel weird saying trigger warning with, like, every episode is a trigger warning.

[Christine]

Yeah, I know. And I never know what to do there. This. This is basically my trigger warning to say it's everything. It's not everything. No, but it's just. It's. It's definitely not everything. It's. It's just sad.

[Em]

Okay, well, like, I don't know a.

[Christine]

Better way to say that. It's just sad. It's not. It's not necessarily very graphic or anything like that. It's just sad. And there's not really. I mean, they're all. See, this sucks because, like, of course they're all sad. I don't mean that.

[Em]

No. Yeah, you don't want to compare stories, but this one is more intense than.

[Christine]

This one might be more upsetting just because it's like.

[Em]

It's of a different caliber than maybe what you usually talk.

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah.

[Em]

The. The jokes have stopped for the episode, is what you're saying. No. Something funny happens. Okay, great.

[Christine]

Nothing funny happens. But there are definitely talking points, some spots where we can take a breather, I promise.

[Em]

Okay, sure.

[Christine]

But I'm going to just jump right into it. This is the story of Andrew Bagby.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

David Bagby. We're starting with his dad, David Bagby. He met his wife Kate in Long Beach, California in 1967. He was finishing up his naval service and was ready to go to school for engineering. Meanwhile, Kate was only in the US Temporarily, or so she thought. She had left her home in England to tour the world as a nurse, and she was going to end up back in England. That was the plan as a midwife wife. But one day, while in Long Beach, California, she and a friend decided to go to Disneyland. They didn't want to pay for the tickets. Who does? So they found two guys, two cute guys who would be willing to pay for their tickets. And so she ended up on a blind date with David.

[Em]

Okay, you know what? That's a great story, though, but also.

[Christine]

Okay, ready? Ready. Last part.

[Em]

Oh.

[Christine]

They were married five months later. Oh, isn't that nice?

[Em]

Although I do like that her version of the story is like, I was using him for money.

[Christine]

Oh, yeah. But I love that they knew that. They were like, will you guys pay for our tickets? And they're like, sure, if you come along with us. And they're like, it's a deal. Yeah. And so I thought that was very sweet. And they did get married five months later. And David did go to school for engineering. They did have some trouble conceiving, and they went through a few fertility treatments. But they had their son Andrew in September of 1973. He grew up as a pretty boisterous kid. He did get in trouble sometimes in class, but as he got older, he relaxed a bit and he ended up getting really close with several of his classmates. And he discovered an outlet in acting. So he had a best friend named Kurt who had a video camera like the old school.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

And this is 80s 90s, so he is acting in his friend Kurt's videos. This is like one of his favorite actors outlets. And Andrew, at this point, he's a teenager. He's not in any more trouble like he may have been as a young kid. He loves playing. His favorite role to play in Kurt's films is the villain. And he finds it a good excuse, he said, to curse and smoke. And then he said, in the name of art, you know.

[Em]

You know what? I love that he's just already becoming like. Like a shitty Brooklynite.

[Christine]

Yeah, I know. It's just perfect. It's so good.

[Em]

Helps her hipster. Film junkie.

[Christine]

Yes. It's like, you're going to Emerson soon. No offense.

[Em]

I love Emerson.

[Christine]

So David and Kate, his. His parents became sort of like second parents to a lot of his friends. And the parents even ended up acting alongside Andrew in Kurt's movies sometimes. So like when they needed grown ups to play a part in the film, they would have Andrew's parents do it. So it was just kind of cute. They were very, very close. Andrew's house was a social hub. His friends felt forever welcomed there and loved the there. He, his dream in life was to become a doctor. And so when he finished his degree in biological sciences and didn't get into his first choice med, first choice med schools, he was pretty disappointed. Instead he, he kind of took a beat. He focused on his relationship with his fiance, Heather Arnold. He got a job, he worked until it was another year and he could apply to medical school again. And this time 1996, he accepted an offer at Memorial University of Newfoundland in St. John's Newfoundland.

[Em]

Wow, cool.

[Christine]

Yeah. So this was over 4, 000 miles away from his home in California and he would have to move to an island off Canada's east coast, you know, new for Newfoundland. And Andrew was really excited. He was like, you know what this is, this is a new, a new journey for me. Medical school went well, but once he started, within about a year, he and Heather called off their engagement. It was just too hard to do long. She had 4,000 miles and you know, he's in med school. It just.

[Em]

Yeah, makes sense.

[Christine]

Yeah. Heather actually ended up moving in with Andrew's parents while she decided what to do next because they were engaged. So she had already planned out that like they would be living together. Yeah. So she moves into his parents home and they're all fine. Like everyone's, everyone gets along. David actually later wrote that she became like a daughter to them. And so, you know, she lived in the house for a while and Heather decided she wanted to study medicine too. And meanwhile, Andrew is excelling at med school. And although they agreed that they had done the best thing by breaking up, Andrew still kind of struggled socially to adjust. And when she started dating again, she could tell it bothered him. And she was kind of like, he's not totally on stable footing yet. That's why she was thrilled when she found out that he was seeing a fellow doctor. Her name was Shirley Turner. And Heather was just happy that he had found somebody else, you know, to, to date because she was seeing new people. Shirley had been born in 1961 and she lived in Kansas until she was seven years old when she moved to Newfoundland with her mother. According to Shirley's friends, she grew up in abject poverty alongside three siblings. But she worked her ass off and earned her way into medical school with a very fierce intelligence and determination. Some people even called her the smartest person they knew. Knew. But being very smart, she still struggled with kind of the social aspect. So professional relationships, personal relationships. She was twice divorced. She had three children who all lived with their fathers. And she also had a reputation among her friends for romantic troubles and also butting heads with like platonic friends. So classmates and colleagues. She just was someone who people described as hard to get along with. Hard to.

[Em]

Not for him though.

[Christine]

Not for him. One supervising physician, for example, said that Shirley lied often and displayed manipulative behavior. In a statement they said she could be charming, friendly and lively, but when caught in an untruth, she would become angry, accusatory and loud. The next bullet says Andrew thought she was fun.

[Em]

All right, have fun Andrew.

[Christine]

And like he's 28, right. So it's like whatever. He's in his 20s. 20s, by the way. She's 40 at this point, so she's 12 years older. Yeah. So that definitely like changes that dynamic a bit. But he told his parents, don't worry, I know she's been divorced twice, but she's sworn off marriage. We're just having fun. It's just super casual. And none of Andrew's friends thought badly of Shirley, but they did find her to be a bit much, a bit overwhelming at times. Okay, I'll give you some examples. She once called Andrew's parents home while he was back in California visiting them him. And when she found out he wasn't home, she talked at his mother for an hour about her childhood, her financial struggles, her family relationships, her past divorces. And this is to Kate, like her son's just like casual girlfriend that.

[Em]

Yeah, like hookup buddy.

[Christine]

A hookup friend. Like a casual.

[Em]

So was she under the impression that they were more. And like she was like trying to like get to know her future mother in law or something?

[Christine]

No, I think she just didn't have any boundaries. I think she just didn't. Didn't comprehend the idea of like couldn't read a room. You couldn't read a room. Exactly. So she called the house again later to speak with David and had basically this same hour long conversation with him. And this is Andrew, Andrew's father. So like now she's doing this to her hut to just weird.

[Em]

You know, by the way that that husband, he was like laughing his butt off that like the wife got trapped on this phone and then all of a sudden he got trapped and the wife Was like, have fun.

[Christine]

Yeah. And she's like, oh, really? Well, actually he's free for the next hour. Here you go. Yeah. And so apparently she did the same thing and he had to like make up a lie about getting off the phone to just hang up. She also stayed twice at Andrew's parents house, but not with Andrew. Like she went traveling with friends.

[Em]

And was she invited or did she just show up?

[Christine]

I think she just asked to stay there and they were like, I mean, okay. And so she visited. And during those visits, Kate and David noticed that she would experience these like really intense highs and lows that were unpredictable, like really big mood swings. She had a really bad temper. According to David, while they were staying at his house, she once got so angry at her friend at dinner that she stormed off and left the table. And then Kate later found her sobbing in the bathroom crying to a stranger that she'd never met.

[Em]

Oh, she's got something going on for sure.

[Christine]

She just lacks all emotional boundaries. She seems to unload her stress on everyone she comes into contact with. And so of course, as we can probably predict, as time goes on, Andrew's friends start getting worried about this because they're like, why are you with this person?

[Em]

Well, also because it's like I never know when she's just gonna show up and ask me for a place to stay or talk my head off.

[Christine]

Exactly. It's like she's not a great person to have around and she's certainly not like a great partner romantically.

[Em]

And also you would, you would think like if it were the 40 year old dating the 28 year old and the 28 year old was having these things, you might be like, oh, totally. You have some growing to do, but.

[Christine]

Like a more immature partner in the group.

[Em]

But when the 28 year olds are all getting together, being like this 40 year old has something going on, like that's an extra bad sign because it's like, shouldn't you, if we know, you should know.

[Christine]

Like he's still in med school. She's an established doctor. You know, it's like she's gone through all the stuff that kind of you do as you're, as you're coming of age and the stress of med school and all that. And yeah, apparently she just was not a fun person to be around. So his friends start getting worried. At first they just found her annoying, but eventually they were like, okay, like there's something clearly wrong here. So Andrew meanwhile, has finished school. He's begun training as a surgeon in New York. And he decided during this time that surgery in New York was not for him. It was just way too much. So he ended up moving to the town of Latrobe, Pennsylvania, and he did his residency training there in family medicine. This is what his calling was like. This is, he thought, okay, surgery was, was not my bag. But family medicine, you know, set hours, seeing the same patients. He just really loved it. So he thrived here and in. Just like he had in California and in Newfoundland. He made friends in Latrobe with classmates, with colleagues, and they really, really got along great. Everyone loved him. People gravitated toward Andrew. He was kind, funny, funny, creative, generous. One friend said in an interview, he wasn't a saint, but he was a hell of a guy, which I love.

[Em]

Okay. That, you know, that's exactly the type of people I want to be friends with.

[Christine]

Doesn't it feel like, wow, that must be someone fun to invite over.

[Em]

You don't gotta be perfect, but you gotta be fun. Yeah.

[Christine]

Gotta be interesting, right? Yeah. So despite all this, Andrew struggled a lot, immensely with his self esteem. His friends told him that Shirley just didn't seem like a good match. Like, they were so gentle and like, kind with him and said, you know, we don't. Just don't think that she may be right for you. And he said, yeah, I don't know if she is, but I don't think I would find anyone better. And they said, you know, you're young, you have so much, you're a doctor. Like, come on, you know. But he just kept saying, I don't know. I. I don't feel like it's worth breaking up with her.

[Em]

Interesting.

[Christine]

This whole. Yeah, it's kind of strange. And this whole time Shirley was living and working in Iowa and they were actually having a long distance relationship. Occasionally they traveled together to events. Like if Andrew's friends were getting married, he would, you know, invite her out as his date. And that was especially important because Andrew tended to be everybody's best man because he was that friend, right where it's like, oh, yeah, which I kind of love if. If there were even couples who were not engaged yet who had asked if he would be their best man when they got married. Yeah, so he was a good guy. He was just the kind of friend that people knew they could rely on and, you know, just trust implicitly and have their back back. But Shirley, meanwhile, became increasingly at odds with Andrew's friends, and she started to cross some major boundaries. Not that she already hasn't, right?

[Em]

But like, what the hell is a major boundary if all the other ones have been crossed.

[Christine]

So she started calling his ex fiance, Heather, Remember the one who, like, lived in the house, and to talk about her sex life with Andrew for, like, just to call randomly out of the blue and just go on and on. This person's problem, it's out there, dude. And Andrew started to get uncomfortable, obviously, and said, hey, I'm just gonna pull back a bit. He started distancing himself. And we know what happens. Shirley clung tighter, didn't like that, didn't like it, and freaked out. So if Andrew didn't pick up the phone when Shirley called, for example, he would call. She would call him 30 plus times. I mean, it's harassment. You know, she won't leave him alone. She calls him 30 plus times on his cell phone, his landline. She leaves dozens of voicemails. Males. Andrew was like, you know what? This is too far. I. There's no coming back from this. So he decided he would need to break things off with Shirley in person, firmly, once and for all. So good guy. He wants to do it in person, face to face. Couldn't be me.

[Em]

Couldn't be me. I did it in a letter.

[Christine]

So I was gonna say, I. I've done it in a letter too. And this was in the age of texting. So you know what? That says something. So in November 2001, he made this plan. Shirley was visiting him in Latrobe. And. And as they. This has happened to me on the receiving end as they got to the airport and she was about to board her flight, he broke up with her. And that's rough. Yeah, yeah. And she left. She flew home to Iowa. And Andrew felt relieved because he was like, okay, I did it. Like, I pulled off the band aid.

[Em]

I feel like she tapped the pilot on the shoulder in the air and went, turn this fucking thing around.

[Christine]

Yeah. Yeah. Hey, I've just had an idea. Yeah.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

So two days later, on November 5th, Andrew was at work and he told his supervisor, Dr. Clark Simpson, that Shirley had shown up at his house that morning at 5am just shown up in Latrobe at his doorstep from Iowa.

[Em]

So she did take a.

[Christine]

She literally tapped this pilot and said, turn the around.

[Em]

She said, flip a. Let's go.

[Christine]

He said, no, thanks. And then he looked back at her and went, oh, she means business. So they went back.

[Em]

So showed up at. So hang on. So like, his, like, supervisor's house? Basically, no.

[Christine]

So he was at work and he told his supervisor. So the reason we know all this is because his supervisor, his name was Dr. Clark Simpson. Dr. Simpson basically relayed this story later to say, oh, he came to work. He said that she showed up at 5am on his doorstep. And apparently Dr. Clark or Dr. Simpson said, Hey, I don't feel good about this. Don't go home to her like this. Something's off. You broke up with her. She shouldn't be at your house, right?

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

And he said, I don't think she's up to any good. And he said, why don't I go with you? Like, I'll just join you. And he said, either don't go or I'll join you. Go with somebody else or maybe we call the police. But Andrew said, oh, my gosh, no, it's no big deal. I'm just going to meet Shirley at a bar after work, and then I'll meet you at your place, at Clark's place, to the doctor. I'll meet you for a debrief after, afterward. But of course, Andrew never showed up at Clark's home that evening. He also didn't show up for work the next morning. And that was when Clark knew something had gone terribly wrong. He called Andrew and left a voicemail saying, I'll stop by your house in five minutes and beat the piss out of the door. Because he was so freaked out that something happened, especially after, like, saying, oh, I'll come with you. And then, yeah, just letting him go on on his own. He must be like the guilt kicking himself, right? Yeah. And not that it's his fault, but like, it just could anyone, anyone would feel that. So Andrew was never late. This was so unusual. His colleagues immediately were feeling dread. Then, you know, the news is on the TV in the break room, and they see that a man was found dead in a nearby state park. They already feel anxious about this. And then they learn new information that the man was found wearing medical scrubs. And that's when they all kind of assume they know who this is. So they're all gathered in the conference room soon after at the hospital, and their supervisor tells them Andrew is dead. He's been killed, and he is only 28 years old at this point.

[Em]

Right.

[Christine]

So Clark immediately knows what happened because he's the one who said, hey, don't go home. She seems dangerous, right?

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

So he immediately calls the police and tells them that Shirley had something to do with this, or he thinks she does because she came up to his house after they broke up and out of the blue. And so of course, police immediately question her. And pretty immediately, I Mean, I don't think that this woman is very discreet. They pretty immediately know. Know something's wrong. Like, she's. She's done something. Like, they, like, meet with her and they're like, oh, she's like, a little bit out there. She definitely has something to do with it.

[Em]

You just get a vibe when people have, like, that intensive energy.

[Christine]

Exactly. Especially when it's about someone they murdered.

[Em]

It's like, oh, that especially.

[Christine]

Yeah, that especially. It's like, why are you even here in this town? Like, you're not even supposed to be here. You know, this is. All right. Flags. So what they do is they gather evidence to file an arrest warrant. But guess who fled to Canada real quick? It was Shirley. Okay. Because even though she was living in Iowa at the time, she's like, I'm no idiot.

[Em]

I know it's coming.

[Christine]

Yeah, exactly. So she. She fled to Newfoundland where she had grown up. And Kate and David, meanwhile, are absolutely horrified. You know, this is their only child. They. They've just adored him forever. Not that any parent is any different.

[Em]

Yeah. It's okay.

[Christine]

You know, it's just to give you an idea, they're completely shocked. Like, this is. I mean, they probably have heard that he broke up with his girlfriend, and they're probably just relieved that he dumped her. And now it's like, wait, he's dead two days later? I mean, it's just shocking.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

So apparently they were so grief stricken that they actually both discussed dying by suicide once they.

[Em]

Oh, my God.

[Christine]

Yeah. They both agree to. To join together. Yeah.

[Em]

My God.

[Christine]

Because they were like, we don't know how to live without our son, you know?

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

So his colleagues in Pennsylvania signed up for shifts to bring. And these are his colleagues in Pennsylvania. They don't. They haven't met his parents, you know, back in Long beach, but they just loved him so much.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

That they. They signed up for shifts to bring Kate and David meals. They had somebody always sitting with them.

[Em]

Sad. I mean, like, that's very warm and touching of, like, the community to be. That's. I mean, it's still. To even have to go through.

[Christine]

It just feels even just so empty because it's just so dark of a situation. Just like so incalculable of a loss. And the hospital itself was in mourning. There were actually patients who had started signing up for wait list to be one of his patients. Like, that's how much. Yeah. He was, like, beloved in every community he was in. And I don't just say, like, he lit up a room but he actually did, even though he was still in training. Like, he wasn't, you know, officially out of medical training yet, but out of residency yet. But he had earned this reputation as somebody very smart but also very compassionate. And people were so grief stricken by his death that they actually had four different memorial services in different parts of the world. There was one in Latrobe, there was one in California, There was one in Newfoundland, and one in England. And some of Andrew's ashes were also spread in England, where he had spent many summers with his mother Kate's family, and some were spread in Missouri where he spent with his dad's family. So he just had a lot of people out there who. Who were devastated by this loss. On December 12, Shirley was arrested in Newfoundland due to evidence of her involvement in Andrew's death. Shirley initially told U. S. Investigators that she was homesick in Iowa on Nov. 5 and hadn't spoken to Andrew at all that day. Day. But then they looked at her cell phone records and they were like, oh, well, that's weird. It says that you went from Iowa to Chicago on November 4th, and you were headed southeast. So where were you going?

[Em]

Uhhuh.

[Christine]

And it was very clear she traveled through Indiana. She made more phone calls from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania on the morning of November, November 5th, which is only 45 minutes from Latrobe. So like she said, I was home in Iowa. She's 45 minutes away from. From she's in Pittsburgh. Like, she's lying. So Andrew had told his supervisor, Clark and you know, his friend that she was at his home that morning at 5am and police discovered that she had actually logged into her own ebay account from his home computer that day.

[Em]

Oh, well, okay, that ought to do it.

[Christine]

Yeah, that ought to do it. That night she made a call from Cleveland, Ohio. So she was. That's several hours from Pittsburgh. So she was clearly going back towards. Towards. Towards her home after presumably doing something horrible to Andrew. Yeah. On Tuesday, November 6, which was the day after Andrew was killed, she was back in Iowa. And then she finally called Andrew's phone from council bluffs and said, hey, on the voicemail, just thought I'd say hi. Haven't heard from you in a few days. Love you. Bye.

[Em]

So how many. How much time was that in between?

[Christine]

So. So that call came the day after he was killed. So she drove all the way down.

[Em]

And then they made the phone call as if, like, nothing ever happened.

[Christine]

Killed him. Drove up through Cleveland, back home, and the next day called and.

[Em]

Have you brought it up yet? How he died. Like, what was the way?

[Christine]

I am about to let you know. Yes. So as for evidence, just after 6pm on the night Andrew was killed, a man walking in Keystone park saw Andrew's car parked beside a dark SUV that matched Shirley's vehicle's description. Andrew had been murdered with a small.22 caliber gun. He had been shot repeatedly. And guess who owned a.22 caliber gun?

[Em]

Not Shirley, certainly. That's what she told everyone.

[Christine]

Shirley say it ain't so. Surely couldn't be Shirley. It was shirley. She owned a.22 caliber gun, and an unused bullet was found at the scene. Shirley had a shooting instructor who told police that Shirley's gun sometimes malfunctioned and ejected unused bullets.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

Shirley had completed three lessons with this instructor, the final taking place just shortly before Andrew's murder. And when Shirley knew that investigators had caught her in a lie about her whereabouts, she was like, oh, well, you can take my gun. I promise has nothing to do with. With it. But then she was like, oh, wait, no, actually, I forgot. I actually don't have it on me right now because I fled to Canada, and I don't. Like, I don't know where it is.

[Em]

Okay. Also, like, ask someone who knew that. So, okay, if she knew she had a malfunctioning gun, you think she would have at least looked around for the bullet, like, to make sure?

[Christine]

Unused bullet. That's such a good point.

[Em]

And on top of that, like, so was she getting shooting classes to shoot him?

[Christine]

Probably.

[Em]

It sounds like she was literally trying to shoot him. Like. Yeah, like. Like preparing for it. Because in my mind, it's like, oh, she had it. She just snapped one day, and it happened. But this sounds like it was fully planned.

[Christine]

The fact that she drove and the fact that she drove from her home all the way down, then drove back the same day. Like, it just feels like she had.

[Em]

A lot of time to think about not bad news. Yeah.

[Christine]

And the fact that she brought a gun, took shooting lessons days before the murder. Like, I mean, it really does track that this was.

[Em]

This was not a. Because with everything else you've told me so far, I have been prepared for you to say, like, oh, he said he wanted to get back with his ex, or he tried to break up with her for good. And then she just went. Like, her eye twitched, and it was unfortunate. Yeah.

[Christine]

And. Yeah. No, it's like she got on the plane, said, all right, okay, great. We've. We've pat. And that's so scary, too. It's like, for someone to Be like, oh, I'm devastated, but okay, I understand. And then to show up at your doorstep at 5am Two days later, and you're like, I'm going to work.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

You know, and then later that day, they fucking kill you. It's just so scary. So she says she doesn't have the gun in Newfoundland. She's released on bail, which was promised to the court to be paid to the court system by her psychiatrist, but fun fact, not actually paid. Oh. So his name is Dr. Doucet, and he comes back here. So he's a former colleague of hers and he promises he will pay for her bail. She gets released and she also had to turn in her passport. Right. Because she's clearly, like, sure, a flight risk. So she has to also check in weekly with the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary. Is that the right word?

[Em]

I don't know. I've never heard that, Constable.

[Christine]

Constabulary and promise not to. It makes me want to add another syllable. Like. It doesn't stabula. Constabulary. You know, like, add in one more syllable.

[Em]

But constabulary.

[Christine]

Yeah. Constabulary. That feels right.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Oh, yeah. So constabulary, I believe and promise not to leave the area. I love that. They're like, just. You just have to promise you won't leave. Thank you. Promise. It's fine.

[Em]

Just give us your word that we know you're good for it.

[Christine]

We trust you. Yeah.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

So she was free pending hearings for her extradition to the U.S. when? At a press conference. Please note, it was at a press conference on February 7, 2002. She announced to the world that she was four months pregnant with Andrew's child.

[Em]

Oh, for sake. It just. Your. It just gets worse. Okay.

[Christine]

Yep. David and Kate are just overjoyed they have something now to live for. They.

[Em]

Sure. But also now you have to, like. But, like, the mother of your grandchild's a murderer.

[Christine]

Right. But they literally feel like, oh, we don't have to end our own lives. Like, we don't. They felt like there was no way out but suicide. And now they're thinking, you know what? We have a reason to live. Literally. That's. That was how they saw it. It. They said, we have to protect this child from his mother.

[Em]

I would have. I would have been so. I mean, yes, I understand that side of it, but I also would be terrified for myself because I'd be like, for the next 18 years, I have to, like, wonder if. Like, if.

[Christine]

But if you think about it, she's on. She's on. Like, she's on trial for murder. So it's like, oh, well, oh, right. Presumably, like, you're right, the grandparents will have some, hopefully some sway. And, and so they, they jumped on this chance and they thought, you know what, we, we gotta at least fight for. Right? Because like you said, it's going to be real bad if we just let this woman raise this long road. Yeah, yeah. And so they, they felt finally they had like a new mission, something to live for, and they left everything behind. They used all of their financial resources to relocate to Canada, to Newfoundland, and fight for custodial rights as grandparents.

[Em]

Wow.

[Christine]

Months passed, filled with monotonous court sessions, and then they kept repeatedly delaying Shirley's extradition to the U.S. the U.S. you know, it just goes on and on and on. And Zachary ended up being born, little Zachary on July 18, 2002. And Kate and David were allowed to see their grandson once a week for one hour under supervision. On September 19, Shirley's extradition hearing finally began. And on November 14, she was incarcerated pending her extradition to the U. S. So Zachary went to live with his grandmother. Grandparents.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

And this is where he thrived. Shirley called their home every day to speak to Zachary. And once a week, Kate and David drove Zachary to visit his mother in prison. So they were really trying to play along, you know, Shirley appealed and was actually released in January 2016. Yeah, yeah, it's not cute. And Zachary was returned to her custody. Now it was declared that the crime of which Shirley was accused was specific because it was of an ex boyfriend, not just of the public at large, not of a child, not of a friend. And so they said, even though she's violent, like we don't feel the public is at risk, we don't feel this child is at risk. And because she was obviously presumed innocent until proven guilty, the presiding judge decided that even if she were guilty, she's not a threat to the general public. And so they kind of gave her a little bit of a passion. So essentially, in other words, she was presumed to be a one time killer. It was a, like you said, they thought of it as a crime of passion and they said, oh, well, she won't do this again. Right. So David and Kate were granted several weekly visits with Zachary, which, which must be so hard to, to have him for that time and begin to really raise him and grow to love him and attach to him and then, you know, he's suddenly taken back. Um, and so they were allowed several weekly visits and one overnight visit every two weeks. And like this, I guess, elephant in the room is they, as a result of this have to spend a lot of time kind of placating surely the woman they believe murdered their son. So they're here, like, you know, they. They want to keep her happy so that she doesn't. I would also custody.

[Em]

But, like, I mean, I know this is, like, kind of a stretch, but my paranoid brain would very quickly also go to, like, what if. What's stopping her from also trying kill us if she's going to jail forever, like, just to make sure that we're not near her kid or whatever. Or like, we're extending.

[Christine]

Especially if you don't. If you don't. If she, like, surprises you with her behavior and you can't predict it. Yeah, you have no clue. So they did everything they could to try and, you know, keep the relationship civil again, knowing that this woman potentially probably killed their son. So they went with her to movies, malls. They paid for things. They went to swim lessons, they went to church with her, anything they could to be at Zachary's side to keep things, you know, going smoothly and healthfully for him. And all the while, they just had to push down this, like, sickening feeling that this was a person hanging out.

[Em]

With the person who killed your kid. That's crazy.

[Christine]

No. And. And, like, here's where I tell you a little bit more about how he was killed. We know it was with the type of gun that Shirley owned, but he had been shot five times in cold blood. Blood. He was shot once in his chest, once in his face, twice in his buttocks, and then once in the back of his head. And then the sixth bullet was the one that had fallen out.

[Em]

And also, like, if it was on his chest and then his butt, that means at some point he tried to, like, turn around.

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah. So it is in cold blood, as in point blank range. You know, no chance of defense. But still they enmesh their lives with hers because they wanted to. To be close to Zachary and try to keep him safe. So David apparently really struggled with this for obvious reasons. He would constantly remind Shirley that if she wanted to talk about Zachary and his visits, she had to go through lawyers. Like, this was too messy of a situation for her to be calling them and trying to, like, make plans. But she was always kind of complicating, muddying the waters. At Zachary's first birthday In July of 2003, he kept running to Kate, Kate, his grandmother, instead of opening presents with Shirley, and Shirley accused Kate of trying to replace her as his mother.

[Em]

I told you. I told you that at some point you're gonna Be on our bad side.

[Christine]

Here, you called it. And so tense, as Saoirse put it, is an understatement. Like, they are on probably the tensest of terms that in laws could be like, hey, murder and a baby and jail time. It's all just very, very, very intense that Kate and David, their goal was to get Zachary out of the situation and raise him and, and keep him safe. So all they could look forward to was that Shirley would be tried in the us Found guilty of Andrew's murder. They could get moving and, and get him back in their house. Sometimes, of course, things felt hopeless. They worried so much about Zachary that they discussed things like kidnapping him. They were like, we have to come up with a way to save this kid. And, you know, they were never going to do that. But I think it's just one of those things where you get desperate and you're throwing out anything like, oh, I wish we could just do this, you know? And so they discussed potentially, like, kidnapping him and maybe, maybe saving him that way, but that would mean disappearing and Zachary wouldn't know his family, and they didn't want that life for him. Him on that front. They also, David even considered going after Kate, took her sleeping medication to kill Shirley at night. Oh, my gosh. I know. And he thought that Zachary would be safe and at least he would go to prison, but Kate would be able to raise Zachary. Like, that's how much they were invested in helping this child. And of course, he never really legitimately thought to do that. It's just something that crossed his mind, you know, I don't blame him. Yeah, I don't either. I mean, at that point, it's like you're desperate, you're cornered, you know, and you've already lost the thing you love most. It's just heartbreaking. They also considered filing an affidavit claiming that Shirley had threatened them or Zachary. But then they were like, it's going to be, he said, she said, we don't have any real evidence to point to. So with the encouragement of their lawyer and child protective services, they just tried to be patient, which, as you know, is my least favorite thing, thing to do on planet Earth. And they, their, their team just kept saying, just wait. We're confident the justice system will run its course and Zachary will be remanded back to your custody. So they continue to compromise with Shirley. They did everything they could to keep her content with the arrangement. They feared that any upset would, like, put Zachary in harm's way or take him out of their Life. And thankfully, they at least received tremendous support from the community. They had joined this church at St. John's and meanwhile, you know, while they have this big community rallied behind them, Shirley is trying her best to live a normal life. I know. Question mark. She starts dating this guy, but apparently he dumped her after his friends Googled her.

[Em]

Well, that'll do it.

[Christine]

And found out that she tried or was accused of. Of being killed, of killing her former boyfriend. And his friend said, hey, red flag. And so he dumped her. She called him hundreds of times, leaving angry voicemails and claiming that she was pregnant with his child. She was not. While all of this unfolded, Andrew's lifelong filmmaker friend. You remember Kurt Whoever, forget, he was working on a project for Zachary. Little baby Zachary.

[Em]

Oh, was it a bunch of the old. The old videos that he'd film with his dad?

[Christine]

So, sort of. He traveled from California to England to Missouri to Pennsylvania and Newfoundland, and he interviewed everyone who had known his dad, Andrew.

[Em]

That's so cute.

[Christine]

I know. And had loved him. And he planned to one day give the film to Zachary so Zachary could feel like he knew his father through the people that loved him. And it's just, like, the most touching thing ever. Family and friends spoke to Zachary in the interviews directly, even though he was just a baby. You know, they said, your father was a wonderful man. We can't wait to meet you. You know, you're going to be just as wonderful as him. One friend who. Who had never met the baby, but who loved Andrew, said to Zachary, little baby Zachary, you are loved. I love you, and I care about who you're going to become. So it was just a way of making him feel loved, even though his dad was out of the picture. Picture, and his mom was potentially, you know, going to prison. Zachary would never know his father, of course, but he was born into this, like, beautiful legacy that's huge. Tremendous support system in three countries across two continents. And Kurt, it was just so important to Kurt to kind of tell that story. So he finished his journey in Newfoundland, where he finally got to meet baby Zachary during a visitation with Kate and David. And he was one. He was a first in line of many friends who had heard about Zachary, but he got to meet Zachary finally.

[Em]

Nice.

[Christine]

There was another extradition hearing scheduled for September 25th, which, incidentally, would have been Andrew's 30th birthday.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

And this was the day that Shirley would likely be incarcerated again, pending her ultimate extradition.

[Em]

Happy birthday, Andrew. Are you kidding me?

[Christine]

Birthday. Kate and David, understandably, are counting down the days, they're like, this is when the tides turn again and we. We get our little boy back. So. Monday, August 18th. It's a little over a month before the hearing. A constable sat down with Kate and David in their living room and said Shirley and baby Zachary are missing.

[Em]

She kidnapped him?

[Christine]

Yeah, just before midnight on Sunday. The prior night, Shirley left home in her oldest son's car. They had discovered the car in a ditch, but there was no sign of Shirley or Zachary. Zachary. And of course, the media got. Got wind of this. Word traveled quickly across the island. People started calling Kate and David, checking in. They're trying to remain hopeful, like, well, she couldn't have left Newfoundland. It's this kind of small area. Hopefully, like, she's on someone's radar. They'd be recognized boarding a ferry. We'll. We'll track them down. There's no way she had the money to hire a private boat so somebody on a ferry will recognize her. This is what they're thinking. Thinking. A few hours later, the constable tells them he has some bad news.

[Em]

No. No.

[Christine]

The bodies of a woman and a baby were discovered on a nearby beach.

[Em]

If I can't have him, no one can. Is that how that was? Okay.

[Christine]

Yeah. Kate and David went to identify the baby, and when they saw Zachary, Dear God. I mean, mean, I can't imagine imagine this happening to anyone. And then the thought of this happening after you've lost your son so young and tragically, and then his got this ray of hope. Yeah. Yeah.

[Em]

And also, like, he was supposed. Not supposed to actually, you know, help you through some ideation stuff, but, like, it was supposed to be your. Your hope.

[Christine]

It was a turning point for you. Yeah, it was a bright spot. It was like the silver lining. Exactly, exactly. And they both just collapsed. And apparently Kate collapsed, then David collapsed on top of her, and they just, like, couldn't get up. I mean, it's just. They were completely defeated.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Authorities suspected that Shirley first killed Zachary and then died by suicide. But they needed to, of course, complete an investigation to rule out other possibilities. They found that on Sunday night, Shirley called her friend who wasn't home, and left a voicemail claiming she and Zachary were staying the night with her. Her boyfriend, this is the ex that she had, like, harassed and called a hundred times. She actually did drive to that guy's house, and they did have a witness who said she stopped to ask for directions. She drove to the ex's house. When she got there, she planted pictures of herself and Zachary on the property to, like, Indicate that she'd been there, I guess. Or that he had photos of her.

[Em]

So weird.

[Christine]

Okay, and then don't speak too soon. She left a used tampon, also at the scene. Scene?

[Em]

To do what? For what?

[Christine]

To attempt to frame him in her.

[Em]

Disappearance by like saying like, oh, I was here. Like. I mean, what a.

[Christine]

Okay, I bled in his home. I don't know. It's just weird. It's like that's.

[Em]

Yeah. Couldn't have left like an eyelash, like. Like a piece of hair.

[Christine]

Yeah. No, a used tampon. I mean, love you like what it's supposed to prove, I guess, but. Yeah, you stamp on. Supposed to prove he was involved. I guess. This Shirley fed Zachary some of her Lorazepam, which is brand name Adavan, a medication to treat anxiety. It's just a. It's a benzo. And she had a prescription prescribed to her by a certain Dr. Duquette. Remember him?

[Em]

Oh, sure do.

[Christine]

Who had promised and never paid the bail money for her. She took a dose herself. And then she walked to a marina in the rain. And a night watchman claimed he thought he heard a baby crying near the water around 2am but he walked everywhere and he couldn't find the source of it. And then it stopped.

[Em]

Oh my gosh.

[Christine]

Shirley wrapped Zachary against her chest with a sweater and walked off of a pier into the dark Atlantic Ocean.

[Em]

Oh my gosh.

[Christine]

Hundreds of people attended Zachary's funeral. And when Andrew died, Kate and David didn't accompany his remains to be cremated, which was something that Kate regretted ever since. So this time they were able to go with baby Zachary to his cremation. They spread his ashes in England and Missouri alongside his father's. They found at this point their lives were just completely drowned in rage and grief. And the only consolation they had was that the medical examiner had determined Zachary was unconscious when he drowned. So. Okay, so he didn't suffer.

[Em]

Sure.

[Christine]

And that was. That was the. The. The only silver lining they got out of this. So throughout the entire ordeal of the extradition hearings and custodial applications, Kate and Dev. Kate and David were never allowed to speak to the press because there's a, you know, press ban. So they said, we don't care. And they decided to violate the ban and speak at a press conference following Z. For them, death good for them. It. The rules.

[Em]

Yeah, why not?

[Christine]

They've been following the rules this whole goddamn time. And what good did it do?

[Em]

And not only that, they've been above and beyond. I mean, they were get breaking bread with their son's killer for the sake of their grandson.

[Christine]

Yes, literally. So they spoke out in this press conference against members of the Newfoundland justice system whom they felt were in part responsible for Zachary's murder. So an investigation was started into Zachary's custodial case. Case. It was an official investigation. It was discovered that a man who once rented a room in Shirley's home had actually moved out of the house because he was so, quote, disturbed by the way Shirley treated her multiple children. So, like this has already been flagged before. He reported that she hit them with belts. See, she sometimes left a young child unattended for entire weekends. The children were interviewed at school by investigators supervised by the principal and they all confirmed that Shirley did beat them them with belts. Shirley's then husband denied the allegations. The investigators wrote in their records that they tried and failed to contact Shirley and they ultimately just closed the investigation without ever speaking to her.

[Em]

Oh great.

[Christine]

Just moved on. Well, we can't get a hold of her, so I guess she can have the belt back.

[Em]

No sense of urgency going on in Newfoundland.

[Christine]

This is me right off what is happening or anywhere. I'm just so pissed off about everything. The report also found that Shirley had stalked and harassed another boyfriend in Canada for two years until. People like this don't change. Right. Like this is a pattern. They do this. Yeah, they escalate. So they found this other boyfriend in Canada who had moved away and she had harassed and stalked him. He apparently came back from moving away in 1999 and discovered Shirley at his front door nearly unconscious, wearing a black dress and holding a bouquet of roses. Like out of what unhinged MySpace era.

[Em]

Like, like he came say anything.

[Christine]

Love with story.

[Em]

Which is wild because. So he came back and on a random day she was doing that. That implies that every day that he was.

[Christine]

Because it implies that she found out like the day he was coming back, moving back or something.

[Em]

Yeah, honestly, like that person should be like so shocked that they're alive.

[Christine]

No, I know. And I think they are. Like, I think the fact that this was never even brought up in any of the hearings or any of the custody stuff is so disturbing. She also had a four page when this guy showed up and she was at his door. A four page suicide note addressed to him on her person. According to the report, police Investigation revealed that Dr. Turner had evidently ingested 32 tablets of Unisom, which is an antihistamine, and 42 tablets of Nazone, which is like a nausea relief pill, in an effort to die by suicide, to overdose Surely she didn't. She survived, obviously, and she continued her harassment campaign against this boyfriend. She would show up at his home, threaten his life. Life. Call him over and over. You know, we know the drill. Each time she arrived, he would contact the police, they'd make a record of it, and escort her off the premises. But apparently, when Pennsylvania State Troopers informed him that Andrew Bagby was murdered, he was like, hey, she's gonna come for me next. Yeah, like you said, he knew she was trouble. And if she had resorted to murder, he was like, well, with what she's done to me, I'm sure I'm next.

[Em]

Yeah. Why wouldn't you think anything else?

[Christine]

Yeah, and his roommate even slept on the couch with an ax for a month because they were so freaked out that she was going to come find them.

[Em]

I'm surprised the roommate even stayed. I would have been like, we both go to my mom's house, right?

[Christine]

Yeah, let's both rent a cabin in pigeon forge. In October 2006, the review into the custody situation concluded that Zachary's death. Baby Zachary, his death had been preventable and that his welfare had been mismanaged and neglected when he was alive.

[Em]

All I want to say is, I.

[Christine]

Know, and it's so hard because I. I mean, they made the point, of course, like, that this inquiry had more time and resources to really find all this information. But also, it feels like she was so erratic this. Her whole life. Like, there was never a period of peace or calm.

[Em]

And earlier when they. They were like, well, she's probably fine because she. Maybe it was a crime of passion and she wouldn't hurt the general public. It's like, if you even have to have the conversation, I think she. I think she should have had some time behind bars.

[Christine]

Hey, maybe not a baby. Like, if she's, like, killing a grown man, maybe don't give her a little baby. You know, it's just like that man's baby, too. I mean, it's just. It's just wild.

[Em]

Like, how could. How could no one read between the lines of what was happening there? Like, she.

[Christine]

People can. But it's just like, the structure is not built for the.

[Em]

It's like it's the system.

[Christine]

The system. You know, not to be that guy, but, like, what do you do? You know? It's like, you have proof, you have anecdotal evidence, but, like, I don't know. But. So they did determine that this could have been prevented, so that was good, at least. And, yeah, duh. Like you said. Hey, Mr. Dr. Duquette was found to have violated professional and ethical standards for his whole involvement, signing for Shirley's bail, etc, and he was fined and required to undergo psychiatric counseling. International attention turned to Andrews and Zachary's deaths when Andrew's best friend Kurt released his documentary, Dear Zachary.

[Em]

Oh, well, that's heartbreaking.

[Christine]

I know. And this is the movie that I was mentioning at the top. It was. It was released on Netflix ages ago. It was one of the first kind of true crime things I remember watching on Netflix back when I lived in Glendale, of all things. And it's. It's a very beautiful tribute. It really is. He had turned the material once intended as a private message. He was never going to make this into, like, a big thing. It was just meant for Zachary as like a, yeah, personal time capsule sort of thing. But instead, he had turned the material once intended as a private message to Zachary from family and friends into a feature film to memorialize both Andrew and Zachary and to seek justice. And the Bagby pushed for legal reform. And after this film came out, that helped a bit. And in 2010, Zachary's bill was passed. And this is an amendment to the Criminal Code of Canada, which allows bail to be denied in the interest of protecting a party under 18 years old. Which is just great. I mean, that's what we were saying, like, don't give her a baby, you know? Two scholarships were funded in Andrew's and Zachary's names to support medical students in Latrobe, Pennsylvania, and at Andrews Medical School in Newfoundland. Kate and David ended up moving back to California, Southern California. And in an interview, David said, you don't leave it behind. You don't get over it. You take it with you, but you move on. And that is. That is the story of just the worst possible thing. Story of Andrew Bagby and his parents who've just endured a. A lot of pain.

[Em]

And you found that on Reddit.

[Christine]

So I'd seen the documentary, like, ages ago. I think it came out in, like, 2010. I don't know. It was. It was a while ago. And. Let me see. 2009. 2009. And so I watched it back then. I remember thinking, like, this is bonkers. But we. We had never. We didn't have a podcast yet. And so then, like, years later, I. I just sent Saoirse a thread on Reddit and they found this story. And I was like, oh, yeah, that one, that one.

[Em]

Thanks for covering this one.

[Christine]

Yeah, that one's rough. And they said, oh, we'll do something else. And I said, no, no, no, let's cover it. You know, I know the story. I remember the movie. It's. It's. It's a beautiful tribute to them. And, you know, it's just tragic. It's just super tragic. So that's the story. Story.

[Em]

Wow. Well done. Good to know you can watch more of it. If. If that wasn't enough, there's more to do.

[Christine]

Yeah. I will say the movie is beautiful. When I first watched it, I didn't know what it was about, and I was, like, totally blindsided. So hopefully, at least you know, you go into it with kind of a. Like an understanding of the sadness of it. But yeah, it's. It's a. It's a well done, well done, done documentary. And I appreciate you all sticking around for this, especially if you're introducing this to someone new and they're sitting in the car like, what the. Why did you make me listen to that? We're supposed to be going to Gatlinburg for a bachelorette party, not crying in the car. Welcome to your new life.

[Em]

There was. There's a. There's a little moth out. Who's fighting for his life to break through the glass and get in this house.

[Christine]

Oh, to get in or out?

[Em]

To get in. I don't know what his feelings. He's, like, obsessed with. Anyway, sorry, not to change the subject. I'm just like, what is so attractive about coming in here? It's just me.

[Christine]

I can't imagine. Just me.

[Em]

No. Good. Good storytelling. But it's definitely sad. So thanks for the warning. Heads up. And thank you, everyone, for tolerating. I don't know if you heard any clacking sounds. Hopefully they all got edited out. But I can confirm that he ate that entire bone in one sitting.

[Christine]

Hey. Which I also auto ship them.

[Em]

I'm also. I'm like, I'm not pro bone for the most part, because I've heard, like, all the horror stories about little shards and stuff, but then it, like, terrifies me as, like, a new dog parent. But I was like, fuck it. Like, just to get through this episode. Like, he gets.

[Christine]

It's.

[Em]

It's a nice little surprise.

[Christine]

Yeah. The problematic stuff is the rawhide that often, often gets lodged in their throats. Yeah.

[Em]

Gotcha.

[Christine]

Well, not often. I shouldn't say often, but, like, that has a risk of that. Yeah.

[Em]

Well, this is all that's left. I don't know. I don't know why he decided to eat the entire thing. And then.

[Christine]

Holy mother.

[Em]

Little trinkets.

[Christine]

Wow.

[Em]

Like this, like, I like how at this point, he was like, I'm full. And it was right when I stopped talking, of course.

[Christine]

He's like, do you want. It's like when Liana says, do you want to bite? Because she pulls something out of her mouth and doesn't like it anymore. And I'm like, thanks, thanks. It's tempting.

[Em]

Yeah. Well, I guess you're gonna.

[Christine]

What.

[Em]

Do you. Do you have anything exciting that you're gonna do in New Orleans tomorrow? Any plans?

[Christine]

Well, maybe we'll talk about it on the Yappy Hour, because I do have a few things and I have some questions to ask you because I. I'm trying to take my brother to some cool things he's never been before. So I'm trying to plan some stuff, and I'm way behind, obviously. We're recording a day before we leave, so if you want to join our yappy hour, that's patreon.comATW WWD podcast. You can also buy tickets to the last couple shows of our tour. And that's why you drink.comlive. fun fact, Beach2Sandy is going on tour this summer. So if you want to see me, come see, come see me go to beach sandy.com you can follow Emmett the M Schultz, you can follow me at Xteen Chiefer, you can follow us at WWD Podcast and the rest, you'll figure it out.

[Em]

And that's why we drink.