E429 A Personal Pug Nightmare and a Driving School Lore

Summary

Podcast Summary: "And That's Why We Drink"
Episode: E429 A Personal Pug Nightmare and a Driving School Lore
Release Date: April 27, 2025

In Episode 429 of And That's Why We Drink, hosts Christine Schiefer and Em Schulz delve into a blend of personal anecdotes, paranormal tales, and a gripping true crime story. This episode intertwines their everyday challenges with chilling ghost narratives and an in-depth exploration of the Las Cruces Bowling Alley massacre. Below is a comprehensive summary capturing all key discussions, insights, and conclusions from the episode.

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I. Personal Struggles and Technical Hiccups (00:00 – 03:00)

The episode begins with Christine and Em experiencing technical difficulties, struggling with audio connections and equipment setup. This candid moment sets a relatable tone as they navigate the challenges of producing the podcast amidst personal turmoil.

Notable Quote:

• Christine [03:16]: "It's becoming like... one of those things where I was almost like, should I play along?"

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II. Em's Pug Nightmare (03:00 – 14:00)

Em shares her tumultuous experience fostering a pug named Peanut. The dog’s incessant snoring, fear of groomers, and aversion to water turned peanut into a source of relentless stress. Em recounts multiple attempts to manage Peanut’s behavior, including failed grooming sessions and exhausting cleaning routines.

Key Points:

• Peanut’s behavioral issues stemmed from previous trauma, making everyday tasks like bathing a nightmare.
• The constant presence of Peanut disrupted Em’s routine, leading to heightened anxiety and frustration.

Notable Quotes:

• Em [12:05]: "It's not something I could handle."
• Em [12:32]: "It made me want to be violent. I was so overwhelmed."

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III. Driving School Lore: Em's Early Driving Challenges (14:00 – 36:00)

Em reminisces about her first driving experience, a pivotal moment marked by embarrassment and fear. At 15, during her initial solo driving test in her mother’s new Lexus, Em inadvertently crashed into a pole by confusing the gas and brakes, leaving her mortified.

Key Points:

• Em's early struggles with driving reflect broader themes of control and vulnerability.
• Her mother's supportive words provided emotional resilience, emphasizing forgiveness and understanding.

Notable Quotes:

• Em [36:54]: "It was the day I was allowed to drive with like people with adults in the car."
• Em [36:53]: "I was so devastated at the dinner table. I felt so bad and so guilty."

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IV. Haunted Hotel May Comer in Cape May: Ghost Stories Unveiled (36:00 – 57:00)

Transitioning from personal stories, Christine and Em segue into paranormal lore surrounding the Hotel May Comer in Cape May. They explore various ghostly apparitions reported by visitors, including the enigmatic Ms. Wright, known as the Trunk Lady, and other spectral entities causing disturbances within the hotel.

Key Points:

• Ms. Wright’s lingering presence is characterized by heavy perfume and the dragging of trunks, fostering eerie atmospheres.
• Room 10 is identified as the most haunted, with reports of cold spots, moving furniture, and malfunctioning clocks, suggesting temporal anomalies.
• The hosts ponder the psychological impacts of such hauntings and their explanations through quantum physics.

Notable Quotes:

• Em [41:26]: "So she was also known for dragging a big trunk to the hotel and into her room when she would say."
• Christine [49:08]: "The time just stops or it warps in this room. That's fascinating to me."

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V. The Las Cruces Bowling Alley Massacre: A Tragic True Crime Case (57:00 – 119:00)

The centerpiece of the episode is an in-depth examination of the Las Cruces Bowling Alley massacre that occurred in February 1990. Christine narrates the harrowing events where two armed robbers entered the bowling alley, shooting seven individuals, including two young children. The detailed recount includes survivor testimonies from the 2010 documentary A Nightmare in Las Cruces.

Key Points:

• Incident Overview: On February 10, 1990, armed assailants executed a mass shooting at a bustling bowling alley in Las Cruces, New Mexico, resulting in seven fatalities.
• Survivor Accounts: Melissa, the only child survivor, recounts her terrifying experience of helplessness during the attack. Ida Hogan, the cook, survived with severe injuries, and Stephanie Cenac, the manager, later succumbed to her injuries in 1999.
• Community Impact: The massacre left the small town in shock, with ongoing grief and unresolved questions lingering for decades.
• Investigative Efforts: Despite composite sketches and renewed appeals, the case remains unsolved. Christine and Em discuss the potential of AI-generated composite images in aiding investigations, highlighting the blend of technology and true crime.
• Rumors and Theories: Speculation ties the incident to possible illicit activities connected to the bowling alley’s owner, Ron Cenac, though no concrete evidence substantiates these claims.

Notable Quotes:

• Christine [95:28]: "It might be something more, which I do sort of have like a little bit of info for you on the guy at the bowling alley who may or may not be doing some illicit activities."
• Em [125:50]: "These people are shooting up children. They're not rational people. They're gonna talk. Somebody knows something."

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VI. Utilizing AI for Investigative Advances (119:00 – 129:50)

The hosts explore the innovative approach of using AI to generate realistic composite sketches from original drawings, aiming to rejuvenate stalled investigations. They showcase how this technology has been applied to the Las Cruces case, presenting more accurate visual representations of the perpetrators.

Key Points:

• AI Witness Report: An external company utilizes artificial intelligence to transform hand-drawn sketches into photorealistic images, potentially aiding in suspect identification.
• Composite Sketch Accuracy: The hosts express optimism that AI-enhanced images could breathe new life into unsolved cases by providing clearer visual leads for law enforcement.

Notable Quotes:

• Christine [128:58]: "It's kind of hard to see, but these are the original, like, hand-drawn sketches of what these men looked like."
• Em [129:03]: "It's an even more realistic photograph than just this drawing. That's awesome."

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VII. Reflections and Emotional Toll (129:50 – End)

As the episode draws to a close, both hosts reflect on the emotional weight of discussing such tragic and haunting events. Christine articulates the profound impact the Las Cruces massacre has had on her, emphasizing the need for community awareness and the pursuit of justice.

Key Points:

• Emotional Impact: The recounting of the massacre and personal stories leaves both hosts visibly affected, underscoring the deep-seated trauma associated with true crime narratives.
• Call to Action: Christine urges listeners to disseminate the AI-generated sketches and provide any pertinent information to aid in solving the case, highlighting the ongoing quest for closure.

Notable Quotes:

• Christine [134:34]: "It just kills me that this woman, her entire family has been just completely obliterated violently, and she has no idea who did it."
• Em [135:05]: "I doubt she says this, but my mom says, don't get me anything."

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VIII. Promotional Segments and Final Thoughts (End)

The episode concludes with brief promotional segments for sponsors like Ollie and Rocket Money, seamlessly integrated into the conversation. Amidst these promotions, Christine and Em share light-hearted moments, balancing the episode's heavy content with personal humor and camaraderie.

Notable Quotes:

• Christine [74:56]: "My therapist told me sour candy can help reset your vagus nerve."
• Em [135:27]: "That's a weird thing to say, but..."

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Conclusion

Episode 429 of And That's Why We Drink masterfully blends personal narratives with enthralling paranormal stories and a meticulously detailed true crime investigation. Christine and Em offer listeners an intimate glimpse into their lives while navigating the complexities of unresolved mysteries and the supernatural. This episode serves as a testament to their resilience and dedication to uncovering compelling stories that resonate with a broad audience.

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Resources Mentioned:

• Documentary: A Nightmare in Las Cruces (2010)
• AI Witness Report: AI Witness Report Website
• Social Media: AI Witness Report Instagram

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Disclaimer: The discussions and narratives presented in this summary are based on the podcast transcript provided. For a comprehensive understanding and emotional impact, listening to the full episode is recommended.

Transcript

[Christine]

So have you ever been speed dating? Have you? I haven't. That's cool. Well, apparently if you're the owner of a growing business, imagine that there's speed dating, but for hiring people. That's kind of what we did when we went through people who applied to be Eva and all of a sudden it was like, here's Eva in the middle of this beautiful pile of. Of. And we did the speed dating and. And she sat down and we said, ding, ding, ding.

[Em]

If you were hoping for some sort of speed dating for you when it comes to a job search or an employee search, well, good news there is. It's zip intro from ZipRecruiter and you can post your job today and start talking to qualified candidates tomorrow. And right now you can try Zip Intro for free at ziprecruiter.com Drink Zip.

[Christine]

Intro gives you the power to quickly assess excellent candidates for your job via back to back video calls. Oh, so it's like really is like speed dating. You simply pick a time and Zip Intro does all the work of finding and scheduling qualified candidates for you. Like they schedule. Then you sit down, you choose who you want to talk to, and it's like bing bang boom.

[Em]

Enjoy the benefits of speed hiring with new Zip Intro only from ZipRecruiter rated number one hiring site based on G2. Try Zip Intro for free at ZipRecruiter.com.

[Christine]

Drink again, that's ZipRecruiter.com Drink Zip Intro. Post Jobs today. Talk to qualified candidates tomorrow.

[Em]

Hey there, travelers. Kaley Cuoco here.

[Christine]

Sorry to interrupt your music, great artist, BT Dubs, but wouldn't you rather be.

[Em]

There to hear it live?

[Christine]

With Priceline, you can get out of your dreams and into your dream concert. They've got millions of travel deals to get you to that festival, gig, rave, sound bath or sonic experience you've been dreaming of. Download the Priceline app today and you can save up to 60% off hotels and up to 50% off flights.

[Em]

So don't just dream about that trip. Book it with Priceline. Go to your happy price. Priceline. Well, shall we?

[Christine]

Hello everyone. Oh.

[Em]

Hello everyone.

[Christine]

Better, Easier. I don't mean that In a way of life it gets better. It doesn't get better. Starting the show.

[Em]

Okay, I think it just keeps. It does get. Are you okay?

[Christine]

No, I'm not. Thanks for asking. Hi. Sorry.

[Em]

Are we. Well, what's happening?

[Christine]

No, no, I'm sorry. I feel that I started off with a rough energy, so let me start that over also. Hello everyone. Is that better?

[Em]

Quick question. Is your microphone connected to this audio?

[Christine]

No.

[Em]

Hold.

[Christine]

How about now?

[Em]

That's much better. I'm so sorry. I'm just realizing it.

[Christine]

It's fine on the audio. I promise. I checked.

[Em]

Okay, so round four.

[Christine]

As Jack says, she didn't check.

[Em]

We are welcome to 429. This episode is sponsored by the world being totally against us. Because we have tried to do this episode so many times and so many things have gotten in our way.

[Christine]

It's becoming like. Yeah, it's becoming one of those things where I was almost like, should I play along? You texted me earlier with that tease of like, oh, are you still not feeling well? And I was like, I mean, I'm not really feeling well. Should I just say again, let's postpone it? And then I felt everybody on our team go, like, we will strangle you to death if you do this. But I was like, a part of me wants to just keep pushing the envelope, you know?

[Em]

If I didn't care about Jack's feelings, we would have probably pushed again. Correct. A man needs, like, a day of.

[Christine]

This, at least a day to get this out. We're, like, pushing the envelope here with recording. We're back to the old days where we are flying at the seat of our pants. You know what I mean?

[Em]

And we're the hamster on the wheel.

[Christine]

Yeah. I'm packing for my flight tomorrow. Em's in a hotel, we have a show, and then the episode comes out in a few days. It's just chaos. But that's, you know, I feel like where we thrive.

[Em]

Well, we were supposed to record, like, a week ago, and then it just became, like, a series of information, unfortunate events. Like, they lost my luggage, which had my laptop in it, so we couldn't record. Then Christine got sick, and it's just become. It's become a real hullabaloo over here. Are you still sick? What's the vibe? What's happening?

[Christine]

I'm still sick. This is the first day I've. This is really stupid. This is the first day I'm drinking coffee in, like, four days. And I decided to fill, as I mentioned in the promo we did for our upcoming Vegas show, which I'm so excited for. I filled my gigantic Mirage Las Vegas cup with iced coffee today, which is probably the dumbest thing I could do. It's the first day my stomach's been, like, fine in, like, four or five days. And I decided to just fucking test the limits, I guess. But, yeah, I'm drinking this giant cup and that as as we talked about, this is what my. Why do I keep forgetting the name of it? Iced tea, Long Island Iced tea, Long Island Ice. I'm telling you, I think I've really.

[Em]

Just drank some before you got here.

[Christine]

Today, aged 40 years in the last five days. I have so many white hairs, the world is falling apart. Anyway, I'm okay. You didn't ask that, but. Hello. How are you doing today?

[Em]

Better than you, I think.

[Christine]

I feel a bit manic. I'm trying to slow it down by drinking some coffee. How are you doing?

[Em]

I'm sure. I'm trying to, you know, lose the stimulant. By drinking stimulants?

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah, you get it.

[Em]

Well, I mean, first of all, what was going on? You had a stomach flu? Were you, like getting sick all the time?

[Christine]

Oh, yeah, I. I pooped my pants for the first time in a few years and that was not fun.

[Em]

Brilliant. Brilliant.

[Christine]

I told myself I would not say that on air, and then I did. Immediately was one of the first things.

[Em]

I said, it happens to the best of us. Yeah, it happens.

[Christine]

And, yeah, it happens. And Leona had it first.

[Em]

Then blaze, normalize, pooping your pants.

[Christine]

Listen, it's, it's, it is what it is, people.

[Em]

Okay, I'll put it this way, Christine, you're not the only person it's happened to, I'm sure.

[Christine]

Thank you so much for saying that. Because Leona looked at me and said that you're the only person that's ever happened to. And I said, stop bullying me.

[Em]

She only knows, like, poor people, to be fair, so.

[Christine]

No, that's true.

[Em]

Well, when my time comes, I'll, I'll feel less bad.

[Christine]

Yeah, exactly. Don't worry about it. It's all, I'll lead the way. But it's just been like. And I was. We were in Virginia, of all places, for Easter, visiting Leona's cousin. And I literally slept 16 hours straight. Missed the entire Easter. I don't even know what happened. I like slept through the entire. And I was so embarrassed because I sweat through all the sheets because I was. Had a fever. So in the middle of the night I woke up and like, did laundry and like, my sister in law came downstairs, was like, what are you doing? I feel like I was just behaving, like so bizarrely and strangely. And then I got home yesterday and now I have to pack. And by the way, today, this is the worst story I've ever covered. Today, it's the worst story I've ever covered.

[Em]

Yeah, Christine's on a little Kick. Where she says that after every. At the beginning of every show now.

[Christine]

Because last week, I think me, maybe I'm the problem, Right? Like, I'm just sensitive right now, maybe.

[Em]

I think you just. You just. You're chasing that high, man, and you just keep pushing the limit.

[Christine]

I don't know what that is. It's like, what do I. What am I doing? You know?

[Em]

Because last week you said it was, like, one of the worst episodes or one of the worst stories you've covered, and now this time you're like, oh, no, this is worse.

[Christine]

It's. Can I be honest? It's. It's bad. It's so bad. It might be literally this one. I don't think I've ever had so many. Well, Israel Keys and this one are the most nightmares I've had about cases.

[Em]

Oh, excellent. Yeah. Okay.

[Christine]

So how are you? What smoothie did you order?

[Em]

Okay, that's a great question. It's actually why I drink.

[Christine]

Tell me.

[Em]

I'm.

[Christine]

It's also what. It's also what you drink.

[Em]

It's what I drink and why I drink. Which. We've never had that combo before.

[Christine]

That's really beautiful. Yep.

[Em]

I drink. I drink because I'm back in tropical smoothie cafe territory. And remember, if you recall, back when I was home for, like, a whole month in December, I finally discovered my smoothie.

[Christine]

Oh, that's right. I do remember.

[Em]

And so I finally got to have it again, and I haven't even had a sip yet because I wanted. I wanted you to be a witness to it. That's part of it, yeah. I'm so excited. I literally have been thinking about this for the longest time, and I was hungry before we started recording, and I was like, do we think I'm in. I'm in Trosmo territory? Do we think I am? And. And wait, what do you call it? Trosmo Tromo Tropical. Nobody else calls it that. By the way.

[Christine]

What's the flavor? Until now.

[Em]

Until now, it's blueberry bliss. But I switch out the banana for mango because I don't care. I think it's disgusting to have a banana in a smoothie. It overpowers the entire thing every time. Then I also get extra strawberries.

[Christine]

Yeah. Okay. I was like, it's either pineapple or mango. Mango. That makes sense. That sounds delicious.

[Em]

It's blueberry, mango, and then double strawberries. Basically, it's. I know I'm about to have a ethereal experience.

[Christine]

I'm so happy for you.

[Em]

Are you ready?

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

Oh. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Okay, see, that was working.

[Christine]

Wow. Okay, you know what? I was so afraid because I was so afraid you'd be disappointed if they.

[Em]

Put a banana in there.

[Christine]

Yeah, I really. Sometimes I've realized recently that I have an issue with other people being disappointed because I started sweating so much and going, okay, don't worry. Just tell em. You can order another one if it tastes bad. What is wrong with me? I'm glad it's delicious. I'm so glad.

[Em]

It's. It's. It's exactly what I wanted. I'm so glad. I'm. I look, you know, past me was so smart to order this one time and. And then it just stuck with me for the rest of my life. Anyway, that's why I drink also. I drink. I drink about something. I remember thinking, use this. Use this for your heart. Use this for your heart. Oh, I know what it was. This dog, Christine.

[Christine]

Oh, God. Don't you talk about Hank this way.

[Em]

I had the worst day of my life recently. I. It was. It was probably wasn't the worst day of my life, but this was. This was the first time I've had a depression nap. And in the depression nap, I had a dream where I told myself, when you wake up, you need to take a Xanax. That was, wow. And then I woke up and I had to take a Xanax.

[Christine]

You know, it's so weird. My reason why I drank today, one of them was going to be that I had a dream last night that I took a Klonopin. And then I told myself, you have to take another one or else you won't be able to, like, sleep through the night. And then I realized I was out of Klonophen and I woke up in, like, panic. So I had like, a dream also where I was instructing myself to medicate myself. That's so weird, Em. I've never had that dream, so that's very weird timing.

[Em]

This was the first time for me too, where I. Because I think I've. I've had things where, like, I obviously get, like, heart palpitations and things. I've noticed before that if I wake up before I'm ready, I will wake up with heart palpitations. It's very terrifying. That is scary. And if I'm having a really uncomfortable sleep, like, let's say it's like, really hot, like, and you know, like, how it would affect your dream, or, like, now you're like, in a sauna or something, I will get heart palpitations because My body's not like regulated.

[Christine]

Get it? So you have to like, maintain equilibrium at all times. I mean, that's horrible.

[Em]

So even when I was asleep, I think I was so stressed out about how that day had gone that my. In my dreams, I was like, oh, Xanax time. You need to fucking chill out because your heart's exploding while you're sleeping.

[Christine]

Yes. That's scary. We both had dreams about our fucking Xanax. Like, what the. That's a bad sign.

[Em]

So the reason that I had such a bad day was because Allison brought home a second dog to dog sit. Not sit foster, thank God. But for a temporary foster, it seems. This is little pug named Peanut and I. No, I'm sorry, I'm about to.

[Christine]

I felt it as it left my mouth. I went. Wrong answer, Christine.

[Em]

I'm about to lose a lot of love from the pug people. But I'm sorry, I don't get it. I'm not a pug person.

[Christine]

What?

[Em]

I'm just not.

[Christine]

I don't like the snarfing, the snoring I have there.

[Em]

I've never in my life been. I think this is why I had. Why I needed a Xanax, because I have been constantly over stimulated by the.

[Christine]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. The noise. Yeah.

[Em]

Like, it's not. I know for some of you it's like listening to like, like a brook and water running over the rocks or something. But like, I can't stand it. It made me want.

[Christine]

People are lying.

[Em]

It made me want to be violent. I was like, so overwhelmed. I was so overwhelmed. I can't do it. And so if you're a pug person, all you're telling me is that, like, I think you're neurotypical because there's no way that that doesn't over stimulate.

[Christine]

It's a compliment then that you're probably like, stable and.

[Em]

Okay, you don't need anti anxiety benefits.

[Christine]

Right. You don't have as much sensory stuff, maybe, or you have different sensory stuff.

[Em]

Sure. That's a good way to put it. Because it's. Apparently me and pugs are fucking ops. Like, I can't stand this wild.

[Christine]

What does Allison feel?

[Em]

We. We keep looking at each other like, what's going on?

[Christine]

What, are we done?

[Em]

Okay, but. So we're watching Peanut for 10 days. He means well. He's like, it's not his fault he can't fucking breathe.

[Christine]

And that's the worst part is, like, they breed them that way so many times and then they get sick and they have These little, short, little snouts.

[Em]

It's not his fault that I hate him, but I really just.

[Christine]

Wow. That is the most Megan thing you've ever said. Hello. Hello. But Megan has entered the ch.

[Em]

If.

[Christine]

Honestly, at this point, sound was.

[Em]

If you have one of those dogs that can barely breathe, and it just makes that sound all the time. I give you your flowers because, like, it's not something I can tolerate.

[Christine]

Is that a phrase? I've never heard that before.

[Em]

I hope it is now.

[Christine]

I don't know. I'm not challenging you. I'm genuinely just asking because I say things like the jig. Which one is wrong?

[Em]

I can't even say it.

[Christine]

I literally don't know which one's right and which one's wrong. And, you know, it's so stupid every time someone says it because I listen to podcast, and when people say it, I'm like, oh, that's wrong. And then I go, wait, no, that's probably right. It just feels wrong. So I still don't know.

[Em]

At this point. You have ruined me. I also don't know.

[Christine]

Fantastic. So there's no way to know. That's perfect.

[Em]

I'm pretty sure it started with jig. And now I'll never know.

[Christine]

No, now nobody knows.

[Em]

Yeah, but. So Peanut is, like, doing nothing wrong, but. Is my personal nightmare. And so he's just this tiny little thing who does nothing but just sit there.

[Christine]

It feels like a fucking cartoon. Like a Cartoon Network thing where it's just this tiny little thing that's just, like, ruining in your life.

[Em]

Maybe one thing. If, like, I was passing him on the street and we just, like, we.

[Christine]

Just had a little snurfle.

[Em]

We had a moment. Like, I'd be like, oh, look at that cute little puppy who sounds. I never have to deal with. But this dog is, like, living in my house, and our house is the size of a laptop, and it kind.

[Christine]

Of echoes in there. I bet you because you just moved in, there's not too much stuff. It's just echoing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Em]

And so I was already not loving this. After, like, an hour, I was like, I'm. I have to go put headphones on or something. Then as soon as we get him, of course we find out. Oops, Peanut has fleas.

[Christine]

Oh, my God. What?

[Em]

And because Hank is through a foster care system, we don't have, like, Like, a vet or anything. We. We don't have, like, through the.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

So we didn't know if he was even treated for fleas. We didn't know we know anything. So we were terrified that he was not going to get fleas. We were definitely worried that, like, our little shoe box of a house now had fleas everywhere.

[Christine]

Well, yeah.

[Em]

So we had to spend the whole day cleaning the house.

[Christine]

And then you're traveling and it's like, well, yeah. Oh, my God.

[Em]

And we had. We had to bring the dogs to the groomers, but there was only one slot open at two different places. We had taken two different groomers, which meant one of us, me, had to walk to Petco with Hank. Good. Allison had to take Peanut in the car to another place, which meant then we had to get a car wash because they were in the car. It was. It was just such a nightmare. We finally got that. We had to get the house sprayed for fleas because I was like, it's in our bed. It's. Even if it wasn't, I was so petrified. I was like, it could be. And I'm a new dog parent, it seems, So I didn't know what to do. So I was like, let's just get everything cleaned. We'll take both them to the groomers. Hey, this is where I found out that Hank hates the groomer.

[Christine]

Oh.

[Em]

In a way that, like, they gave him back in 15 minutes. And they were like, we can't groom him or else he'll hurt himself because he's yanking himself off the table.

[Christine]

No.

[Em]

And, I mean, I should have known, because bringing him into Petco, he was doing the thing where he was trying to put all of his gravity in his ass, so I had to drag him through. He is terrified of Petco. He's terrified of the groomers. And I don't know if he thought, like, he was about to get rehomed or put back in a cage or something like that.

[Christine]

They don't like it ever. But some dogs fucking freak out. Like that thankfully just freezes.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

And so I don't say thankfully like, it's just. His reaction is he just freezes. And so he's gotten okay with it. But sometimes, like, they just never get used to it because they fight it. And it's like, then they have to go home. Yeah.

[Em]

So I was. I mean, if he wasn't on a leash, he would have bolted into the busy road. Like, he was terrified. So. And also. So we were like, oh, we could get him groomed also. Flea treatments, all this stuff. No, they were like, you have to do it yourself at your house in a bath, where he's, by the way, terrified of water. So then I Had to give him a bath. And this is where I found out it's not just the groomer. It's like, bathtubs or running water at all. Freaks him out.

[Christine]

Like, oh, no.

[Em]

To the same level. He. It was after we just finally cleaned up the house from all the flea treatment stuff. We just mopped the floors. We had just done everything. It was a perfect house except the bathroom. And I put him in the bath. Freaks the fuck out. I'm throwing him into the wall just to hold him still so I can scrub him. And of course, his flea treatment. You need to keep it in for, like, 10 minutes on skin. He's freak. I mean, it was like a 90s comedy where, like, I fell into the bath with him in all my clothes. Like, then I tried to, like, get.

[Christine]

Up, except at some point, funny, because you have to deal with the aftermath.

[Em]

Oh, I was crying. I was crying the whole time.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

It's not funny. Yeah.

[Em]

O. Whilst While standing in the bathtub, he. Without a running start or anything, I'm standing up. I'm six feet tall. He leaps over me at six feet, just.

[Christine]

Oh, my God.

[Em]

Resting. I picked him up, like, I caught him in the air like Dirty Dancing. And I'm just begging, and I'm just like, please, Hank. I've had a really bad day. I've had a really bad day. And he's just, like, squirming and scratching the shit out of me. I've got, like, scratch. I don't know if you can see them. I just had, like, bumps and scratches all over me. It was a nightmare. He escapes the bathroom three different times, floods the house that we just cleaned. Then, of course, and only the spots with all the electronics is where he shakes his entire body off full of water. Then I have to grab him and, like, Crocodile Hunter, wrangle him back into the bathtub to, like, try to rinse it out. He won't let me rinse it out. He escapes again. I have to grab his collar. I take him to the yard, and I have to hose him down. He's acting like it's torture. And then eventually, he just dried with some of the treatments still on him. And I was like, I don't know if this burns your skin or something, but I can't get it. It was. Sorry.

[Christine]

Like, you're not, like.

[Em]

It was, like, wrangling the Hulk. It was a nightmare. So I don't think he's ever gonna be clean. We're just gonna have to stick with, like, baby wipes and call It a.

[Christine]

Day I don't bathe my for. For similar reasons.

[Em]

Okay, great.

[Christine]

Anyway, that's why I take my cat to the vet if it needs to happen. Otherwise I'm like, I'm not in for that today or ever.

[Em]

I. I've never met a dog who hates it that much. And part of me feels like maybe he came from a background where like he was. He's acting like he was drowned or something. Like he's. I don't know.

[Christine]

Yeah, who knows? I mean, who knows? Yeah, it's. You never know with these, like fostered and adopted. Any dog. It's like, who knows what they've been.

[Em]

Anyway, that's, that's why I drink. Because then as soon it took all day to clean everything, then I have to clean it like three more times because he kept drowning like just flooding the place. And then the whole time peanuts in my air going. I was like. I was like, I have to go to fucking bed.

[Christine]

Oh my God. I mean, the context really does like add something to it. The context of, of the bath and all that adds something to the peanut, like stimulation, overstimulation thing.

[Em]

I was so pissed and so Xanax was the. The solution anyway.

[Christine]

That was the only thing. Yeah.

[Em]

A really long. Why I drink. But I needed to tell it to someone.

[Christine]

I'm like not breathing now, man. Yeah, no, I like. Oh, yeah. What are you. Oh, thank you for asking. I have so many reasons, but this morning I was trying not to. I'm like really, really stressed about the case I'm covering today. I've just really been having nightmares about it and it's fine. I mean, we'll get into it obviously, but I. This morning. Well, and then on top of that, which I feel like I've. My family doesn't listen to this show, I don't think. But there's just been a lot of stuff internally, family wise that has been very, very.

[Em]

Intense.

[Christine]

Yeah. I don't know how honest we get on this show. I guess we get pretty damn honest. I have no idea. But it's just very.

[Em]

It's your life and your show. You can say whatever you want.

[Christine]

I guess I can say what I want, huh? It's just very heart heavy. I'm in a very kind of a consistent state of mourning right now. And it's been very. It's just been a lot. And then when I'm like covering this case and it's just like my life, I'm having nightmares about that. I'm having nightmares about these people that I'M having a hard time with. And then. And then I'm just going to school with Leona, and I see two birds.

[Em]

Do you.

[Christine]

And I thought, oh, no, those birds are hurt. And then I look closer, and Leona goes, what are they doing? And I went, oh, they're playing the literal birds.

[Em]

And the bees.

[Christine]

The birds and the bees. Happy Spring. It's like mid April. I'm like, wow. Okay. So I bring her into school, and I go, hey, I'm pretty sure those birds. Because now the kids will look out the window. I'm like, I'm pretty sure those birds.

[Em]

I just like, I having a meeting call, right?

[Christine]

And I'm like, honestly, I'm hoping they're pretty of doing that kind of play. Fighting, right? Because.

[Em]

Because you don't want to see a bird kill another bird.

[Christine]

Exactly. That's exactly it. I was like, I'd rather them be doing something like, you know, procreating in front of the children. Sorry, that sounds so up. But like, dying, you know, like something.

[Em]

You can justify wrestling, right?

[Christine]

And so everyone's kind of looking out the window, and I'm going, oh, God. And then all of a sudden, we're all like, are they stuck? And I'm like, holy, these birds are stuck together. I'm not even kidding.

[Em]

Like, they're stuck.

[Christine]

Like their legs are stuck or something. And I'm like, oh, no. And so I go outside, and I'm already, like, half. Just not well because of, like, I knew we were covering the story today. I've been, like, on edge about this other stuff. And so I'm like, already on edge. And I go, what should I do? And the teacher's like, just go. Like, maybe. Maybe go see. So I go outside, ready to, like, kind of shoo them. And now all of a sudden, I go outside. I look at the window, all these children, and the two teacher, or the teacher and the teacher's aide are all looking out the window. And I'm just trying to. These birds who are fornicating to stop fornicating.

[Em]

A tv. A sitcom. TV show, right?

[Christine]

It felt like insane. And then all of a sudden, I'm, like, stomping around the parking lot because they're also on the floor of the parking lot. I'm like, I also don't want them to get run over because they're. And so I'm like, trying to pull them apart. I did not touch them.

[Em]

Don't worry.

[Christine]

But I. I got. I was like, shoo, shoo. I don't know. And eventually they finally Untangled, and everyone started clapping. And I was like, this is the weirdest day. And so then I just. I said, I. I went to, like, Ghibliana, her backpack. And I said, I'm gonna go call my therapist. And I just shut the door and I, like, drove home and I was like, what is going on in the world?

[Em]

I mean, in a. In a TV show where there's an A storyline and a B storyline, like, I would be at home falling into the bathtub with the stupid dog.

[Christine]

Yes. Yes. And I would be like. Like yelling at two birds, hitting them with a stick to try and save them from. I. I don't what. What I think is a certain death, but really they're just, like, in love. I have no idea. The whole day just feels weird. And now I'm here with you. And Em said, did you bring something to. To help? And I brought these airheads extremes. And I promise I will not be eating them on air because as M. Said, people will love that. I promise I won't.

[Em]

But the only thing worse than hearing a horrible, violent, torturous murder that you're probably going to cover is the smacking of an airhead between words.

[Christine]

Exactly. Exactly. And I would not do that. So these are for the Yappy Hour is what I'm saving these for. So anyway, all that to say. It's just a weird time, folks. And I don't know what it's like on the listening end, because I think in our lives, Em, it feels like things. I mean, I speak for myself, I don't know, but it feels like things are just like, so rapid right now. Does that feel like that for you or not really.

[Em]

I'm. Well, I don't know if that's. I would say things feel. I'm. I'm with you. The energy.

[Christine]

Turbulent.

[Em]

Turbulence, A better word.

[Christine]

Yeah, maybe turbulent. And so I don't know what it's like on the other listening end week to week, because it's like we took so much. It feels like so much happened since we recorded. And I mean, I know it's kind of always like that, but I just. I don't know. The birds had to be mentioned. I had to talk about the birds because it was like, who else will hear about this besides my therapist and Blaze and everybody else, you know, and.

[Em]

All the children in preschool and all the children. Well, the children, of course they have.

[Christine]

They learned something. I don't know what they learned. And it was probably.

[Em]

It's certainly something they're going to talk about later in life. And then go, wait a minute, Leona's.

[Christine]

Hang on a second. What was Leona's mommy doing? Like, getting involved with those two birds?

[Em]

Well, what type of birds were they? Since you're into bird watching.

[Christine]

Thank you so much.

[Em]

Not that kind of bird watching.

[Christine]

Yeah, they were. I believe they were bird watching.

[Em]

Technically, it feels like it was a threesome. You were partaking in today.

[Christine]

That's what I'm saying. I felt like I was kind of inserting myself. I should not have been part of it, but I also felt like nobody else was there to kind of break up the party.

[Em]

How do you think David Attenborough would have narrated that?

[Christine]

Oh, wow. And then a stupid human decides to come, you know, add a British accent. But, like, a stupid human thinks it's her job to interfere with nature, so and so on and so forth. Yeah.

[Em]

You said they were robins.

[Christine]

I think they were robins. To be fair, I was more. I was. Their wings were so intense because they were, like, either stuck together or that's just how they do it on the floor of the parking lot. I'm not sure.

[Em]

But what if they were having, like, the craziest, hottest sex in the world.

[Christine]

And you ruined it and I fudged it up? That's what I'm saying. Like, David Attenborough would be so ashamed of me and, like, rightfully so.

[Em]

Well, I'm embarrassed of you. Does that count?

[Christine]

Yeah, it feels. It feels helpful to know that. Thank you.

[Em]

Good. Okay, great. Shall we?

[Christine]

Yes, let's do it. So my dog has an attitude problem, as everybody knows. But with that comes some serious picky eating. It's not even picky eating. Like, he eats rocks, right? But this dog also, when it comes to actually meals, he's very picky. And so when we discovered Ollie, it was like he wouldn't eat anything else anymore. And I feel like I've made a big mistake, but also maybe done the best thing. It's hard to tell as a parent. You know what I mean, what you're doing.

[Em]

Ollie delivers clean, fresh nutrition and five drool worthy flavors. You don't need to be a veterinary nutritionist to know that real, minimally processed food is the best choice for your dog's health. And I guarantee you Gio could taste all of that in one bite. All the vitamins. It's like it's made in US Kitchens with high quality human grade ingredients. And Ollie's food contains no fillers, no preserv, just real food. And because it's gently cooked and delivered fresh, there's no need for artificial shelf life extenders.

[Christine]

They basically have you fill out this 30 second quiz and they can make a customized meal plan based on their weight, their activity level. And so that is is really good too. It's very customizable. Ollie crunches the numbers and gives you the right portions. It's awesome. Dogs deserve the best and that means fresh, healthy food. Head to ollie.com drink, tell them all about your dog and use code DRINK to get 60 off your welcome kit when you subscribe today.

[Em]

Plus, they offer a clean bowl guarantee on the first box, so if you're not completely satisfied, you'll get your money back. That's O l l I e.com Drink and enter code Drink to get 60% off your first box. Money's hard, but luckily we got ourselves Rocket Buddy, which is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings. I really do feel like I have an adult holding my hand.

[Christine]

No, it's game change and it's free, people. It's free. Get it? It's free. It's so helpful. I've like told my. I've made my sister download it, made my brother. I'm like making everybody do it because it's so helpful to have.

[Em]

You can see all your subscriptions in one place and know exactly where your money's going. And for ones you don't want anymore, Rocket Money can help you cancel them. Their dashboard gives you a clear view of your expenses across all your accounts, which is so lovely because I'm constantly wondering, do I have zero dollars? What's happening here?

[Christine]

Well, it's like, how much did I spend on my dog last month? Yeah, like my child. Yeah. It's very weir to be able to separate those categories.

[Em]

And you can get alerts in if bills increase in price. That's also helpful because sometimes I'm wondering, has the money gone? Has it gone away? Where, where are we? Um, anyway, Rocket Money will even try and negotiate lower bills for you, which, if you have phone anxiety like Christine, that's a. Another game changer. Just a. A bunch of game changers over here.

[Christine]

It is. It's amazing. Rocket Money has over 5 million users and has saved a total of $500 million in canceled subscriptions, saving members up to $740 a year when using all of the app's premium features. So cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money.

[Em]

Go to RocketMoney.com Drink today that's RocketMoney.com Drink RocketMoney.com Drink. So, okay, I have a really short one for you today. I actually. It's like, half a page of notes. I was expecting there to be like.

[Christine]

I'm pretty sure I told Em, hey, I have to push a half hour because I'm so traumatized by my story. And then Em just cut their own story in half.

[Em]

I actually just deleted the second.

[Christine]

You just deleted your story. I'm like, I. Honestly, the way I presented it, you're probably like, oh, God, it's two sentences.

[Em]

No, I found a short one because in my head, for some reason, I thought that there was, like, a documentary about it or. Or like a tv. Like, TV shows that had covered it. So I did one that I found a short amount of notes online so I could just do TV coverage for some of it. And then, like, nothing. No one covered it. I don't know where I got that idea in my mind that. So now I just have short notes. So. Whoops.

[Christine]

I'm not complaining because you're gonna have to hear a lot from me today, and I apologize.

[Em]

Why else to talk for 40 minutes about a pug I don't like. So.

[Christine]

Oh, my God. Sorry. That got me. I don't know why. That poor pug. And we all know it's not the pug's fault, but somehow the pug is just like the. The straw, you know, the last straw.

[Em]

And, like, he's doing nothing wrong. I'm sure he's breathing heavier because he's, like, scared on a house. He doesn't know, like.

[Christine]

And he's also like, somebody mate my nose too short.

[Em]

Yeah, it's like the aristocrats. Blame them.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

So, yeah, it's not Peanut's fault. However, some people you're just born to not love.

[Christine]

It's sort of like that. That therapist thing. Eva and I always try to remind each other. Like, instead of saying. But you say. And, like, it's not his fault, and it's incredibly difficult to live with.

[Em]

Yeah, yeah. It's just, you know, when you're. When you meet people and there's something where cosmically, you were meant to not like each other.

[Christine]

You're just kind of at odds. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Em]

That's my. My brain and the sound of heavy breathing. That's what's. So. Sorry, Peanut. And I'm sorry to all the pug lovers who now hate me, but again, you deserve a trophy because it's not something I could. I could handle. Okay, here we go with some short notes. This is the hotel. I hope I'm saying it right. YouTube said it was right. Leave me alone. The Make Homer. The hotel Make Homer.

[Christine]

Oh, lovely.

[Em]

It's in Cape May, which is very haunted on its own. I feel.

[Christine]

I know about Cape May.

[Em]

Have you been?

[Christine]

I have not been, but my best. Best. Well, one of my best friends growing up. I had a lot. No, I realized when I said, oh, well, one of them, and I was like. Well, I had like, two. I didn't mean it like that, but one of my close friends in. At school used to go every summer. And I remember she'd always miss my birthday because she'd be at Cape May and she would always write, like, a postcard home for my birthday. And she'd always be like, one day we'll go together. And then we were no longer friends. But she sometimes listens to this podcast, so. Hi, Emily. If you're out there. And every time I hear Kate May. Emily, I think of you and how.

[Em]

We'Re not friends anymore.

[Christine]

No. And I miss. I miss being friends with you. We just went our separate ways in high school, I think. But probably for good reason. Yeah. I mean, probably. She had plenty of good reason.

[Em]

Right.

[Christine]

Like, don't get me wrong. But. Yeah. I always think of her with Kate May, but she would go every summer, and she loved it.

[Em]

I also really like K. May.

[Christine]

I've.

[Em]

I haven't been a lot, but the times that I've been. It's one of those places where every Jersey, right. It's in New Jersey. It's considered Fun Fact. The country's oldest seaside resort destination.

[Christine]

I didn't know that. I. Probably on one of the postcards she sent me somewhere, probably I.

[Em]

And underneath it says, P.S. we're done. So.

[Christine]

Yeah. P.S. you're such a freak.

[Em]

No, no. Kate May is my. I vividly remember my mom taking me to Cape May one time with her best friend and then the best friend's daughter. So it was. The four of it was. And we were all very close.

[Christine]

What if it was close? Was it Emily?

[Em]

No.

[Christine]

Can you imagine? I didn't get invited. You did.

[Em]

No, she was. We, like, all grew up together.

[Christine]

Cute.

[Em]

Well, me and the friend grew up together, but it was really fun. I will tell you my own personal ghost story from Kate May at the end. What?

[Christine]

Okay.

[Em]

But Kate May, before we even got there. I think one of the. I was, like, 12 at the time, and this was the era where I, like, was not talking to my mom and not even in a Normal teenager way. Like, it still has never actually been discussed and needs to be in therapy. Really? I really cold shouldered her for like a year and a half. Like, did not do that.

[Christine]

You've mentioned that to me and I've never really absorbed it.

[Em]

I don't know what was going on. I wish I could give her the piece of where, like.

[Christine]

Did you journal?

[Em]

No, I just. I think I just fully shut down. In hindsight, maybe there's. There was like some like tendencies going on there that I have yet to still know a lot about.

[Christine]

Let's get into it in the yappy hour. I can.

[Em]

Okay, great. My mom would love that because she's still like, what did I do wrong? And I'm like, I don't know, girl. I don't know. I'm sorry.

[Christine]

She still talks about it sort of.

[Em]

Like, oh, it broke her heart. Yeah.

[Christine]

Oh, I thought you meant like it's never been addressed. Like you've never talked about it. But like, you mean you've never like.

[Em]

Like I've never solved. We never cracked the case.

[Christine]

Oh, interesting. Okay. Okay, we'll talk about in the app. Yeah, we don't have to.

[Em]

We can. I don't care. I was 13. It could just be that I was an asshole. I don't know.

[Christine]

No, that couldn't be it.

[Em]

But I think one of her pulls of why she wanted to take me here is because it's so notoriously haunted and she knew I like ghosts. So anyway, Kate May's very haunted. I would like to do a whole episode just on Kate May, but I feel like there's a lot of material to cover there. I feel like we could do like a month on Kate May if we wanted to. So anyway, this hotel, Hotel May Comer, is a historic landmark. It has an award winning restaurant inside of it. The scariest thing about it to me, five stories, no elevator.

[Christine]

Gasp.

[Em]

Firm pass. It was built in 1916 and at the time it was quote, the largest framed structure east of the Mississippi.

[Christine]

They always have an Easter the west of the Mississippi.

[Em]

We don't say that enough anymore. I feel like that was how every story was framed back then.

[Christine]

Like, and it's like, how do you prove that you can't? Which is why it's the best compliment or the best, like, claim to fame.

[Em]

I had when I was in driver's ed. My driving teacher was like an old southern man. And you know how you're in the car with like two wheels and like he can control it from his end. He was like, apparently in case you fucked up. He was like ready to like grab his wheel, like at any moment and he would say, I got the quickest left hand on the east of the Mississippi. And I was like, what the hell's. I know who he voted for, probably.

[Christine]

And then you drove into a poll and he was like, why does that always happen?

[Em]

Sorry. That was not me blowing my nose, that was me coughing. I did hit a pole the moment he gave me a temporary license.

[Christine]

Wait, did you actually.

[Em]

Oh, you didn't know that? No, I really, like, the first time I ever drove, it was my mom's. It was my mom's brand new Lexus.

[Christine]

She's like, what did I do wrong? And you're like, I don't know. I was crashing your Lexus. I don't know what you did, but.

[Em]

It was the first time. I had just gotten my. Yeah, my permit or my. I don't even know how it goes anywhere, but I was 15. It was the temporary.

[Christine]

Whatever.

[Em]

It was the day I was allowed to drive with like people with like adults in the car. Oh. And my mom said, why don't you drive us to dinner? And so we got in her car. Her fault for putting a 15 year old brand new car. Are you kidding me? She would have been like, why don't you drive? I don't know. We didn't have another car. But I was trying to park. I mixed up the gas and the brakes slammed it right into the pole and I was so mortified. Fun fact. Sorry. This is like a whole like episode about my lore. I'm sorry, everybody, but I love it.

[Christine]

I feel like it's making me feel whole again.

[Em]

Well, my. I was so devastated at the dinner table. I felt so bad and so guilty. I was just like, obviously really hurting.

[Christine]

You felt ashamed?

[Em]

Yeah, yeah. It was so embarrassing. I was like literally not even 20 minutes with my fucking license.

[Christine]

Oh.

[Em]

And my mom said this really poignant thing and she even said, I want you to remember this conversation. And she said, when I was a little kid, I spilled. I spilled a candle all over the carpet. And it was a brand new carpet. And I was so horrified and so upset and so embarrassed and scared that my parents are going to be mad at me. And my dad sat me down and said, I want you to remember this conversation. Because when I was a kid, I melted crayons on the radiator that we got. And my dad was really kind to me and it was the only. It was the only time that he said that I get a pass. And because he could Tell that I was punishing myself more than he could ever punish me. So this is your turn, Linda. You spilled all over the brand new carpet. It's ruined. But you're punishing yourself more than I could ever do. So I want you to remember this. And this one day, when you have a kid, they get one pass. And so my mom at that dinner at that table said, this is your one pass. You could thank your great grandfather for starting this tradition. And one day, if you have a kid and they fuck up really bad and you can tell that they're hurting, they get a pass.

[Christine]

It's when you stood there with the hose and Hank stared you down and you said, hank, this is your. Sit down, Hank. I want you to remember this conversation.

[Em]

The only difference is he felt no fucking remorse.

[Christine]

Yeah. He was like, honestly, the cycle. The cycle starts now. You can't win me over with your gentle parenting ways.

[Em]

Anyway, so it's a. Apparently a thing. So. To my future.

[Christine]

Now I'm crying already. I was supposed to wait to cry to tell my story, but that got me m. That's beautiful.

[Em]

I like how.

[Christine]

Said that to me, but that sounds nice. And I. If I'm gonna say that to somebody, it's nice.

[Em]

Well, nice thing if I like how one of them, like, spilled crayons and another spilled a candle and I crashed.

[Christine]

Alexis into a car that. I mean, really like, with that. With that progression, your child is going.

[Em]

To, like, I don't know, crash into the sun.

[Christine]

Yeah, I was literally gonna say, like, break the moon or something that, like, ruins humanity. Wow. Wow. That's powerful stuff.

[Em]

I don't even. We got through one bullet point, by the way, east of the Mississippi.

[Christine]

Yeah. Let's get back to your very short notes.

[Em]

Okay. So the hotel, it really thrived because it was built right around the time that automobiles were becoming popular. So now there's this increase in drivers, AKA increase in tourists. So a lot of people are coming into the area. It may have also contributed to why the place is so haunted, because it was one of the first places to get really popular as a destination resort. So when the Hotel May Comer was built, it was originally called the New Stockton Villa. And the original owner was named Sarah Davis, who, fun fact, becomes a ghost while running the hotel. Sarah actually lost her daughter and she ended up dying by suicide, we think, at the hotel, although that's undocumented. And this was in the 1930s. And the only other history thing I have for you is today it is a family run boutique hotel. And during Any renovations throughout its years is when activity resurfaces the most. But that's literally all the. Wow, important bits I feel like I need to give you if you happen to work at this hotel. And there's, like, so much more I missed. Blame Google. I don't know what to tell you. Here are some of the ghosts. The first one is Ms. Wright. She's. Her name, we think, is Irene Wright. Before we knew her name of Irene Wright, people called her the Trunk Lady.

[Christine]

Okay. She's like Irene in your head.

[Em]

She was like, someone get a Ouija board. I need to.

[Christine]

Oh, my God. Seriously, something.

[Em]

So she was. This is.

[Christine]

It's a mirror. At least.

[Em]

That's a great point. Yeah, right?

[Christine]

Like, there should be some way to get her name.

[Em]

Spell it out in tissues.

[Christine]

Yeah, Right.

[Em]

So we think if. If it was Irene Wright, the story goes that Trunk lady was a regular at the hotel in the 1940s, and she would come to Cape May either with her family or at least her husband. For years, it was a regular spot for them. Now there's. What I saw online is that there's a bunch of different versions of this because it's now kind of a bit of a lore. So she either always came to Cape May with her husband or she came with her family. She either always came to this hotel or she would sample all the hotels in the area. Depending on the time, sample them.

[Christine]

Just, like, do your bop around.

[Em]

But whatever. She was always in Cape May, and she was a regular visitor. When her husband died, her kids encouraged her to keep going to Kate May without him. And she. When she would come to the Make Homer, she would always stay in what was their favorite room, which is room 10. So she was known for wearing a lot of perfume. She would also bring a really large trunk with her.

[Christine]

When she would say, imagine being known for wearing a lot of perfume. That would be so embarrassing. Like, oh, you know my friend Irene? Oh, the one who wears a lot of perfume? Like, that's just such an insulting thing to be known for. I mean, I get that it's a ghost, right? Like, you can smell the perfume. But it's like, oh, if somebody described me that way, I'd be like, okay, I gotta reevaluate. Like, it's like the time somebody, like, talked about my eyebrows and everyone started arguing, and I went, I gotta go look in a mirror and figure this out.

[Em]

I would've just Britney Spears shaved him off and started all over.

[Christine]

I almost did, but it's like, so if somebody said that I'D be like, I got some. I gotta look inward and figure out what this perfume thing's all about.

[Em]

I guess I don't know what the etiquette of the 40s was, but I feel like if you, like, reeked of a perfume, it was like having, like, a signature scent.

[Christine]

That's true. And it was probably. I mean, you know, it's expensive, right? Like, it's probably like a luxury item. Yeah.

[Em]

I don't know. I think even if I time traveled back to the 40s, I'd go, Yikes. That's a lot of stuff. Yeah.

[Christine]

I have a feeling, especially when you smell those kind of older ones that are, like, so musky. It's like.

[Em]

Yeah. Part of me also wonders because, like, has it just been sitting in a bottle for decades? And that's why it's such an intense smell. Like, was it always super intense?

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

Was it always super intense or was that, like, the thing?

[Christine]

I feel like it was because they would just put, like. Well, I think they're supposed to just put little dabs on, you know, if.

[Em]

You were to put on a scent right now, how much and where do you put it?

[Christine]

I just go like this. Like, I don't have. Or I just go on my wrist and do this.

[Em]

I've always heard wrist, like, behind the ears.

[Christine]

Yeah. And then the neck. The under your ears, sort of where it's like. Where it, like, pulse. Where you're, like, pulses in my mind.

[Em]

It'S so that way, when you reach out to hug somebody, you're getting smell and then smell during the hug. That's so.

[Christine]

It's supposed to be like. Like, so. Yeah. So it's sort of wafting from when. Yeah. If you, like, hug someone or whatever. But it's also, you have your pulse here and your pulse here, and they're warm. And so it's supposed to, like, secrete. Yeah. Or like, keep the scent longer. I don't know. Like, I know when you're cold, you're supposed to run warm water over, like, your wrists and, like, here, too.

[Em]

Pressure points.

[Christine]

Yeah. Like, the circulation is. Listen, I don't. What the. Do I know? I'm not the trunk lady, but I bet she had. She had probably this it down to a science.

[Em]

Except, I mean, maybe, I guess, depending on who you talk to.

[Christine]

I guess so.

[Em]

So she was also known for dragging a big trunk to the hotel and into her room when she would say. Because remember, we've had this conversation before that suitcases with heels didn't exist until.

[Christine]

Like, the 70s, 80s, five floors with no elevator. What are they? She's just making a bellhop carry that upstairs.

[Em]

That's why her favorite room was room 10, which is probably on the first floor.

[Christine]

She was. Oh, oh, oh, I hope so. I really hope so. Because if that's on the top floor of that poor bellhop up.

[Em]

Yeah. I mean, I think we said 70s or 80s is when wheels on luggage started happening, but it wasn't popular until the 90s.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

Which, like, how was it not popular immediately? That would have been, like, Forbes number one invention and.

[Christine]

Right. But do you remember as a kid, like, we always had those giant duffel bags, like, those L.L. bean, like, giant duffel bags, and we didn't have the giant rolly suitcases until the 90s.

[Em]

So I think. I think I just missed the cutoff, though, because by the time suitcases had wheels was when I was, like, big enough that I was expected to carry my own suitcase. Because when I was a little kid, whether or not I had wheels, I was a little kid. I wasn't carrying my bag, you know?

[Christine]

So when you were 28, your mom said, you finally need to carry your own suitcase.

[Em]

It's your turn.

[Christine]

This one has wheels.

[Em]

Yeah. I did also remember backpacks, we can't even get into it right now.

[Christine]

I mean, certainly the backpack. That has to be a yappy hour conversation put the footpin in that.

[Em]

Well, so she was known as the trunk lady, which is weird to me that she was known as a trunk lady because she would. Whatever. People now hear heavy dragging and they associate it with her. But couldn't it have been anyone who had to lug luggage?

[Christine]

And I. Yes. And I also imagine she wasn't the one carrying the luggage. Right. Especially as an older woman, like, who's.

[Em]

Regularly going here, like, she would get special treatment.

[Christine]

At least I would think that somebody would carry her. A. A kindly gentleman or somebody or a staff member would carry it.

[Em]

Well, it's interesting you say that, because there is a lot of hesitation on whether or not Trunk lady and Ms. Wright are the same person. Because she used to be known as the trunk lady. Because people would smell perfume and they would hear a trunk dragging, so they would assume it's a woman with a trunk. Apparently, at some point, someone started working at the hotel who knew the original owners or knew, like, former employees and said something like, oh, that's ire. That's Ms. Wright. So that's how her name gets attached to this. Because he just took whatever information he heard. Put it with Irene. But another Weird thing is that apparently Irene Wright didn't have a husband or kids. So I don't know where the story's coming from. It's all over the place. I hate to be so confusing, but I'm just telling you how confusing it was, even for me.

[Christine]

Yeah. Yeah. So it's basically like a case of he said, oh, this is probably. I mean, whatever, because we know that name exists. We'll just put that label on this ghost.

[Em]

Yeah. I think she was probably a regular. And they're like, oh, maybe it was her because she was a regular and she wanted to stay here, like, you know, make up a story.

[Christine]

So it, like, fit the story a little bit. Yeah.

[Em]

So I'm still just going to call her Trunk lady, even though it's probably more disrespectful. But it maybe isn't Iran.

[Christine]

I mean, maybe not Maybe it's probably better than giving her the wrong name, I guess.

[Em]

Yeah. Well, some say that this is the most haunted room with the most activity. So if you want to get haunted, go to room 10 of the makeover. And others say that some people say, oh, it's like, really haunted and full of activity and really spooky. But some people like that one room in your mom's house. They say it's the calmest, most peaceful sleep they've ever had. So I wonder if it's like, just if she likes you or not.

[Christine]

It's the vibes. Right? Like, you have to be a good fit.

[Em]

Yeah. So the room is also most active during the summer because that's allegedly when Ms. Wright would be there. People say that in room 10, they have felt cold spots. They've heard voices talking to them. They've heard doors slamming. They've heard heard banging on the walls. They've heard banging on their door. In a hallway where nobody's there. The dresser drawers will open and close themselves. The lights will turn on and off. They'll feel a weirdly uncomfortable or weirdly intense presence in there. The chairs will rock themselves. And this is the creepiest thing for me is that the clocks, your personal clocks or watches, will either run fast or slow or stop altogether until you leave the room, and they'll go back to normal.

[Christine]

Okay, that's interesting. That goes into some quantum physics shit.

[Em]

Now that I don't like. Yeah, that's time and space.

[Christine]

We don't have time for today, but, man, do I want to get into that. The time just stops or it warps in this room. That's fascinating to me.

[Em]

I had the nerve to just think, maybe we should have, like, a physicist on and, like, ask them how it works.

[Christine]

Lol.

[Em]

And then they would go, it doesn't. There are no such thing as ghosts.

[Christine]

Ghosts don't do that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, a quantum physicist might have more to say. I'm just saying.

[Em]

That's a good point. Okay, Eva, find us a quantum physicist. Thank you.

[Christine]

Thank you.

[Em]

So the next ghost is the original owner, Sarah, who died by suicide, we think, in the hotel. People have seen her by the stairs. They've seen her at the front desk. She allegedly plays music for people. She will move your clothes around in the closets, which I guess you gotta kill time somehow.

[Christine]

Yeah. Just organizing.

[Em]

Yeah. By size, by color.

[Christine]

By color, by what she thinks your face. Yeah. You just find some, like, way in the back, and you're like, what is this all about?

[Em]

See one in the trash when you get back, you're like, oops, what's this doing here? She makes the lights flicker, and apparently they say that her daughter who passed away is still with her. And they hear. People hear children's spirits throughout the hotel. So they'll hear kids laughing. They'll hear kids running down the. Down the halls. One investigator got an. This is a quote, an EVP of marbles being dropped, and a child's voice then saying, these are mine.

[Christine]

Oh, that's so cute. Why is that cute? But half the shit, like, 99 of the time, when a child's voice appears.

[Em]

We'Re like, ah, you know what? I think it's. It's because it's as innocent as marbles.

[Christine]

It's marbles. I think it's just, like, it's mine. Which is, like, what a child would say, not, like, come play with me.

[Em]

You know, I feel like you and I should have, like, a whole day where we learn the old what all. What all the ghosts would play back in the day. Like, we should play hoop and stick. We should play marbles. We should.

[Christine]

I need you to understand. You know our friend from Libby, Joe. So we were on his podcast and what's it called? Professional Book. Book Nerds. And so he just texted me recently and was like, did you know about this? In Ohio, there is, like, this convention of, like, a hoop and stick convention. Did you know about this? Did we talk about this before?

[Em]

Do I. I want you to sit with yourself and ask me, have I not gone and also known about. No, I would be there. I would have been there.

[Christine]

Okay. We would have to make sure. I guess I just want to make sure I Didn't like, fugue state, you know, like, during my pregnancy or something.

[Em]

We would have taken it over with the. And that's why you drink Community.

[Christine]

This is why Joe texted me. He goes, it's in Ohio. It's called Hoop and Stick Con. It's at Ravenwood Castle, which is like 40 minutes from me, like, really close. And he's like, why is this not a thing you guys do? And I was like, I don't know. But the 13th annual was just held February 27th through March 2nd. And they were, like, trying to get sponsors and, like, all this stuff, trying to get. I know. I was like, I've never been so offended for no good reason in my whole life.

[Em]

The way that we're about to be their only sponsor.

[Christine]

Needed any idea. And by, like, we are absolutely. And I want to show you. I was like, it's honestly good. It just passed. So we have a year to, like, prepare. But, like, here's the picture. I'm gonna send it to you because it is just. Their logo is hilarious. It's called the Hoop and Stick Con. And guess what, Em. Guess what? Guess what. The entire seven. The entire ticket, everything. It's a donation to the Children's Miracle Network. It's all for charity. Like, this is so cool. Hoop and Stick Con. A weekend of board games, role playing games, and general gaming. Goodness in a castle.

[Em]

Eight years we've been doing this.

[Christine]

Eight years we've been doing this. What kind of nonsense?

[Em]

Why did we go to Crimecon? We should have been a Hoop and Stick this entire time.

[Christine]

Why did we do anything?

[Em]

Hsc.

[Christine]

That's. I'm so glad that you brought up the. The. Because I was like, he's texting me that, like, a week ago. And I was like, I have to remember to talk about this. Yeah. So you know what? And they have an online auction, and it's all for charity. I'm like, we gotta get on this. This is amazing. Anyway, next year. Hey, are you listening? Hoop and stickcon. Do you have Internet? How does this work?

[Em]

Somebody reach out to them now.

[Christine]

It's all for children's hospitals. Please help me, me. Help me be part of this. Anyway, thank you, Joe, for. For introducing me to this. And go listen to Joe's podcast. It's really good. Professional book nerds. Okay. Anyway, sorry. Yes. Hoop and Stick Con. This. This is happening. 20, 26.

[Em]

Easy, easy, easy, easy. Okay, there's a go. There's a ghost of a waitress who choked on chicken bone.

[Christine]

Oh, no.

[Em]

She is seen floating in the kitchen. Wearing an old uniform, which is like, I'm calling it an old uniform. Every other website has called it ragged dress. Relax. That's the other ghost who's like deciding if your clothes are ugly or not.

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. She's like that thing.

[Em]

She's like your ugly little rag.

[Christine]

Yeah, like, please check my closet. There's so many other things you could change into.

[Em]

But she's been seen floating around wearing her ragged dress. She will also flicker the lights of the chandeliers. She moves items around in the kitchen. She'll move your silverware. She'll move your glasses. She'll adjust the tablecloth cloths. She's known to mess with the chef's knives. Not something to mess with, girl.

[Christine]

No.

[Em]

And she will touch people. And by touch people, I mean push them near the walk in fridge.

[Christine]

What?

[Em]

Which, like, feels like. It all feels, location wise, very apropos for an old waitress. But like, if you're near a walk in fridge, Tell me if I'm wrong. I have. Isn't it like all waitresses, like, they'll cry in the walk in fridge? Like, why would you push someone who's already at their limit? You know? Know.

[Christine]

That's a good point. Maybe it's sort of like that thing of like coming through, coming through, you know? And it's like maybe it's just an old residual, like people bumping into each other and that's just where that happened.

[Em]

That's a great point.

[Christine]

I don't know. But yeah, I think you're right. Like, that feels like the last place you'd want to be bumped.

[Em]

It's like that would be my last trough. I'm already walking into your rope. Yeah, you're already like, really, really walking here to cry. Like, and I gotta push me. Also in the dark dining room, people right above them, they hear the sound of heavy. This is a quote. Heavy furniture moving despite rooms being carpeted and the furniture being wicker.

[Christine]

That is crazy. That's one of my favorites is when you like hear upstairs. Because it feels less threatening.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

In the moment.

[Em]

But also it's like extra creepy when you know, like, there's nothing up there to drag and nothing to drag it on.

[Christine]

Yeah, that like that to me is always so creepy. I love that. That.

[Em]

And also, like, that implies unless that room above the dining room is room 10. It implies that there's more than just trunk lady. There's trunk people.

[Christine]

It's a whole trunk family.

[Em]

Like the borrowers, but worse.

[Christine]

But so much worse.

[Em]

Yeah, I imagine there's Just a bunch. I. I refuse to believe that there's one trunk lady. I really think.

[Christine]

No. And I. I feel like they're just lumping everyone together. It's like, no, let them have their individual identities here.

[Em]

And like, what if someone drags while someone else shoves while someone else scoops?

[Christine]

And who doesn't have heavy luggage back then? There's no wheels on them.

[Em]

There's no. Everyone had a heavy rectangle.

[Christine]

Yes.

[Em]

You expected someone upstairs to not get along. That's not one woman. That's every single person.

[Christine]

Everybody had a trunk.

[Em]

There's also the ghost of an angry man. Apparently. They say he's downstairs in the basement. He is called the Growler.

[Christine]

Ah, sorry. That was really upsetting. I didn't expect that.

[Em]

Obviously, because he growls down there. He also moves items around. Or at least that's the sound you hear. It sounds like this whole hotel is like. You just hear sounds of things moving. That's kind of what it is.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

The doors open and close really hard. They even slam so hard that the walls have shaken and the beds have rocked themselves. So like. Like off the vibrations of the door slamming so hard, people hear lots of voices. They. Throughout the halls, you can hear either, like, talking all the way to, like, scream, match fighting. Oh, no, nobody's there. There's apparently the ghost of a farmer that has been seen smiling in the lobby.

[Christine]

Smiling?

[Em]

Yeah, I was gonna say, at least it's in the lobby and not in your room, but the smiling part bothers me. I don't know. I don't know what would make that better.

[Christine]

You're right. But being in your room would be so much worse. That's like a serial killer or something.

[Em]

Yeah. Oh, there's a man smiling at your bed.

[Christine]

Yeah. With a pitchfork. I don't think so.

[Em]

There's a lot of phantom bangings. There was one story of like, super loud banging on someone's door just as they were falling asleep. And when they went to check, nobody was in the hall. Then there was. Right when he was going back to bed, there was a second banging. Nobody in the hall again. And then they. He started hearing the sounds of doors slamming all around him.

[Christine]

What are they trying to do?

[Em]

Like, just piss him off but just keep you awake? Yeah.

[Christine]

Like what? Yeah, what is the point?

[Em]

Well, the guy found out the next day that he was the only guest in the hotel and all of the employees had gone home earlier that day.

[Christine]

That's so gross. It was. Imagine. Okay. Thank God he didn't know that. At night, though. To know that you're the only one there. I'd be like, a murderer has entered the building. I'm going to die tonight. That would be my.

[Em]

I. I know I've said it, but, like, when we covered the Greenbrier Hotel, or I think we did, I stayed there as a kid and I heard all the pots and pans, and we were right next to the kitchen and nobody was working. But that's how it must feel where, like, you just hear everything slamming and it's like, was I crashing your fucking party? Because everyone was gone and you just wanted to, like, make all these sounds. But then also in the same moment, I'm like, well, that was really nice that they were gonna throw a party. They respected your room and left your room alone. But I guess not if they were banging on the door.

[Christine]

Well, yeah, it sounds like they didn't even let you sleep, though.

[Em]

You know, maybe they were knocking on the door to invite you to their party.

[Christine]

Yeah, maybe they were like, come on, join the fun. Maybe the party was happening in your room.

[Em]

Maybe they were knocking on the door to, like, be like, respectful neighbors. And they're like, hey, we're about to get really loud, but we just wanted to warn you.

[Christine]

Hey, do you mind the smell of wheat?

[Em]

How do you feel about that? Do you like sticky carpet full of beer? No.

[Christine]

Yeah. What do you think about that? What do you think about me rolling a trunk that's really heavy down the hallway over and over again?

[Em]

Also, they. There's. There's been EVPs caught all over the place, but one of them was in, I think, room 10. The EVP said, We love this bedroom. And then another voice got caught on the EVP saying, I'm happy to hear that.

[Christine]

Oh.

[Em]

So it's like they were having, like. They were only having their own conversation about their stay at the hotel.

[Christine]

That was. I'm happy to hear that. That must be like a bellboy or staff member or something.

[Em]

Yeah, I would imagine it was someone, like, getting to their room with their luggage and going, oh, thanks. I love the room. Happy to hear that.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

Anyway, that's all for the hotel may comer, but I wanted to tell you my personal story in Cape May.

[Christine]

So have I heard this before?

[Em]

I don't know. I'm excited. I don't remember a lot of this era. One, I was, like, really mad at my mom.

[Christine]

Yeah. For some unknown reason that we'll get to in the yappy hour.

[Em]

Second of all, I was closeted about my gender and sexuality, so I was having A Hawaiian shirt era in this moment.

[Christine]

Oh, yeah.

[Em]

As.

[Christine]

Oh, yeah.

[Em]

As most of us have had the.

[Christine]

I was gonna say also that era, like, was. Was. Was hard on everyone, I think not everyone, but a lot of us, fashion wise. And so for you especially dealing with, like, that gender stuff, I imagine that was quite a right. Like, for me, it was just.

[Em]

I was awkward and I feel like a lot of, like, queer. Queer. AFAB people had a Hawaiian shirt phase before they came out.

[Christine]

Agreed. It's like the baggy. There's something about it, you know?

[Em]

And on top of that, when I was. When I was younger, I looked like Shia LaBeouf. And so with the Hawaiian shirt, I was just, like, cosplaying. Even Steven.

[Christine]

Even Stevens.

[Em]

I just looked like Louis Stevens all the time. And. And to this day, I can't look at a picture and not think that I was just his background actor or something.

[Christine]

That's so good.

[Em]

Anyway, so just remember that's where we are. I'm in a Hawaiian shirt. I'm really fucking quiet because of my mom.

[Christine]

Picture this. Picture this. Really quiet is hard for me to wrap my head around, but the rest I can picture.

[Em]

I was loud as shit around everyone else, but if my mom was in the room all of a sudden, I would clam up.

[Christine]

That is wild. Yeah, we got to talk about that sometime.

[Em]

Maybe I thought she was, like, on to me being gay because of my Hawaiian shirts. And I just, like, didn't want to admit it, so I was just like, maybe not really quite.

[Christine]

I plead the fifth.

[Em]

So I. We. I don't know the name of the hotel. I'm working off of what I'm trying to, like, backtrack the information on the Internet and what hotel I think we were staying at is called The Inn at 22 Jackson.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Em]

And I'll tell you why in a second. But we were saying there. I was 13. My friend that was with us, she was 15. My. Our moms are. We're best friends ever since we moved to Virginia. Dwin.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Em]

I think I've talked to her about.

[Christine]

You talked about the mom or the.

[Em]

Oh, sorry. The mom is Dwin and the daughter is Darian.

[Christine]

Okay. I didn't know the daughter's name.

[Em]

Fun fact. If anyone can help this. Help me figure this out. I'm convinced that Dwyn and Sarah Jessica Parker are long lost siblings. Random. But if anyone can help me, me, that'd be great.

[Christine]

Whoa.

[Em]

If you know Sarah Jessica Parker, tell her that she has.

[Christine]

From my. She's from Cincinnati.

[Em]

Okay. If you can Knock on her door.

[Christine]

Well, she comes back once. I mean, she certainly doesn't live here anymore, but she comes back every now and then and goes to graders, and people take pictures of her so I could ask her the next time I'm at graders.

[Em]

They're very identical. And there's, like, some story that Sarah Jessica Parker and, like, Dwin. They both have, like, a something about their dad. It makes a lot of sense in my brain, and I've been convinced my whole life.

[Christine]

Listen, I'm confused.

[Em]

Convinced they're weirdly identical. I'll have to show you pictures from back in the day.

[Christine]

I'm convinced.

[Em]

So Dwin is the mom. Darian is. Is the daughter.

[Christine]

I love these names.

[Em]

Thank you. I didn't.

[Christine]

You're welcome.

[Em]

Myself.

[Christine]

You're so welcome.

[Em]

So I'm assuming we were saying at the end at 22, Jackson, we're all staying in, like, a suite so all of us could be together.

[Christine]

Cute.

[Em]

But the two of us are, like, kind of too young to go out and do our own thing. But our moms wanted to go have their own separate dinner and, like, probably not hang out with teenagers on their own vacation location. So they decided they were gonna have dinner downstairs in the hotel, but we were not allowed to leave the hotel room. Do not leave the hotel room. And also, don't bother us. If we find out that you need something, we're gonna be mad about it. Like, just.

[Christine]

Are you allowed to order room service or something like that?

[Em]

I don't remember. I don't remember. But we were just hanging out up there, and I felt like the place was haunted. It had weird vibes, but I was like, maybe I'm just in a weird, weird new place. As I'm hanging out up there with Darian, I'm. The TV turns on by itself. And I was like, okay, that's weird. So I turn it off. I go and sit back down. The second my butt hits the bed, the TV turns on again. And I was like, what the hell? That's crazy. So I turn it off again, and Darian's in the bathroom, and I hear her going, like, why are you turning the TV on and off? Like, what's going on? And I was like, I'm not doing it. It just keeps happening. And then as I sat down, I was like, watch. It's gonna happen again. And when I sat down, the TV turned on again by itself. And then that's. You're fucking with me. Because she thought she couldn't see me, of course.

[Christine]

Well, that's what happened with us, too, at that time? When it happened in the. We were in the same hotel room, and you were in the bathroom, and you. Except I was blaming you, and you were like, I am on the toilet. And I was like, well, yeah, well, there's a ghost.

[Em]

So then I was like, I'm not kidding. The TV is turning on and off by itself. Or I said at the time. It's turning on by itself. Then the TV turns off, as I said, turns on again by itself. Turns off again by itself. Does us a bunch of times. A bunch of times.

[Christine]

Oh, my God.

[Em]

Then she comes out, and we're both watching the tv turning on and off. On.

[Christine]

Oh, good. I was gonna say, if I'm glad she got to witness it, at least.

[Em]

It turns back on. And we're like, okay, is it gonna turn off again? Like. And we were both looking for the remote. We didn't know where the remote was. All of a sudden, all the volume gets, like. You can see it. Like, the dial on the tv, the volume just gets so loud that we're like, what the hell's going on? And we weren't. Find the remote. Remote. I go over and manually turn the TV off. And I walk away, and the TV turns back on by itself. And I was like, what the fuck's going on? We were so freaked out by this that we were like, our mom said, we can't leave, but we have to go downstairs and find them. So we found them. They were in the middle of, I'm sure the best gossip session of their life, having their.

[Christine]

Their first martini. And you're like.

[Em]

Well, we ended up finding out because we were trying to complain about it to this. Or my mom was trying to complain about it to the.

[Christine]

Yeah, like, I'm trying to drink my martini, and your television is scaring my children out of the room.

[Em]

And they were like, oh, well, it sounds like you met Esmerelda. And we were like, what? And apparently Esmeralda used to be a nanny for the original owners of the house. And to this day, she still likes to play with the kids when they're left alone in the rooms. And apparently, if you like, play board games, a lot of kids have said that, like, their pieces will go missing or, like, they'll turn around, and all of a sudden, like, the game has changed or the cards moved around. And so using that, I looked up Kate May, Esmeralda, Nanny, Ghost. And it puts me at the end at 22. Jackson. There is lore that apparently this story was made up in the 70s but I don't know. Something really freaky happened to me there.

[Christine]

I was gonna say. Also, I always feel like even when things are quote unquote made up, it's like, well, there's clearly some sort of kernel of truth to the activity. At least, you know, so whether it's Esmeralda or not, like, clearly there's a pattern of activity that they're talking about. About. Or if it's drunk lady or not, like, who cares? It's just like, yeah, it's something. Something.

[Em]

Well, so the neck. The next day, my mom and I went to a gift shop, which I'm thinking is what is called today, Winterwood. At one point. It used to be called Kelty's Newsstand, but it's a gift shop in Cape May. And my mom and I were in there and I'm looking through stuff and I see this woman come up to me or come up right next to. To me and, you know, like those. Like those stands where it spins and there's a bunch of stuff on either side of it. Yeah, Well, I was standing and I. I saw her spinning it. And then all of a sudden, as she walked away, she bumped into it and all the stuff fell. Like, a bunch of stuff fell off of the display and. And my mom thought it was meek. She turned around, she went, why would you knock all that stuff over? And I went, it wasn't me. It was that woman who just walked away and there was no one else in the store. And they went. The. The store owner went, oh, yeah, you saw her. She does that. And I went. And I went, what? So going off of that, I typed in, like, kate May, ghost gift shop, knocking shit over.

[Christine]

Oh, my God. You're like tracing your steps back. Wow.

[Em]

And so there is a gift shop there called Winterwood now. And it used to be owned by two sisters who used to run a millinery there. And apparently they're still heard causing fucking ruckus.

[Christine]

And yeah, they're like, get these postcards out of here.

[Em]

I'm trying to. People will hear them giggling in corners. Yikes. And they'll push books and Christmas decorations off the shelves.

[Christine]

So. Wow, you saw. So you saw an apparition?

[Em]

So I saw an apparition, yeah. Those are my two stories from Kate Maple.

[Christine]

What did she look like? Do you remember? Or was it just so fleeting?

[Em]

I just remember her wearing a big ass hat hat. Which is weird because actually, in hindsight, now a millinery, right? That's a women's hat store.

[Christine]

I didn't Even put that together.

[Em]

I just found out about Millinery, like, last night.

[Christine]

Oh.

[Em]

All right. Well, there you have it.

[Christine]

There you have it.

[Em]

That's Hotel May Comer.

[Christine]

And that's amazing. And you know what that gives me? Hope about Ghost. Our ghost stories. Because I not hope about our ghost story. That's a weird thing to say, but.

[Em]

Like, it's kind of validation.

[Christine]

Yeah, well, it's a little bit refreshing to me and exciting because it's like, I didn't know this story of yours. Yours. And I feel like we've talked about, like, over and over so many times, like, the same story of, like, me seeing Mr. Whaley at the top of the stairs or whatever. And it's like. And. And. And in the past, you've said, I don't think I ever saw an apparition. Now it's like, oh, like this sparked a memory for you. And we're like, wait, you did see an apparition. But, like, you wouldn't have even conjured the memory unless we were covering the story. So I just. It gives me hope that there are more, like, weird little memories we'll uncover and, I don't know, maybe more apparitions.

[Em]

Maybe along the way, we'll find out we've been much more haunted than we think.

[Christine]

Aw. And that it was the journey all. And the destiny.

[Em]

Speaking of which. Speaking of which, I have a gift for you.

[Christine]

Oh, you do?

[Em]

I do. It was when I was in Houston. It was called the Texas Art Asylum.

[Christine]

Oh, good.

[Em]

And they had aisles and aisles and aisles of old family pictures. And I was like, if Christine were here, she would obviously have looked through this. And I still feel so guilty about that one. I think I was in Portland or something. I still think about the picture that felt like I was supposed to give it to you.

[Christine]

And I don't even remember, frankly.

[Em]

Well, this time around, I walked around, I closed my eyes, and I put my hand on. I went and I went, what did.

[Christine]

The universe give you?

[Em]

I was like, christine, I just tried to think about you, and I was like, there's something here that Christine would be drawn to. To. And would want to take home and take care of.

[Christine]

Aw.

[Em]

And so I have this for you when you get here. It's in the original old casing, the old file, and it's this picture. I want to be careful because. But it just. I don't know why it spoke out.

[Christine]

My heart is beating so fast.

[Em]

I picked it up before I even looked at it, and I knew it was meant for you. And I don't know why, but then I open it up and it's a mom and her baby.

[Christine]

Oh, my. Look how happy she is.

[Em]

And I said. I said this. This feels like something Christine would take care of.

[Christine]

So it's meant to be a mommy and a baby.

[Em]

If anyone knows who they are, we would love some information, but thank you.

[Christine]

M. And look how happy. Like a lot of times in those photos they weren't smiling, so it's really cool.

[Em]

No, they're just so happy.

[Christine]

Even the baby's happy. Oh, that's so sweet, Em. Thank you. And one of my favorite paintings is of a mom and a little baby. And it looks really similar. I feel like I'm gonna hang them next to each other.

[Em]

Well, it used to obviously be like pinned or in a portrait or something.

[Christine]

Or maybe in a scrapbook or something.

[Em]

Maybe. Yeah. And the only name on it is Harris, but I think that's the name of the photographer.

[Christine]

Oh, yeah. And that was in Houston.

[Em]

You bought it in Houston? Houston. And it also, it does say, so.

[Christine]

Nice.

[Em]

Harris, photographer. It says Little Rock, Arkansas, in D.C. oh, interesting.

[Christine]

So maybe Little Rock or something.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Yeah. Who knows? Wow, that's beautiful. Thank you.

[Em]

That's for you when you get here. I didn't mean to steamroll you, but you said like, you said something that made me remember, so.

[Christine]

Oh, no, please. I don't remember what I said. I'm sure it was really, really smart and interesting.

[Em]

Yep. So, any. Anyway, there you have it. There's a little gift for you when you get here tomorrow.

[Christine]

Great. Thank you. I needed that little interlude because I'm about to cry about the story. I'm sweating so much. It's fine. Okay. If you are craving your next action packed adventure, and who isn't? Audible delivers thrills of every kind on your command. From electrifying suspense and daring quests to spine tingling horror and romance in far off realms. If you're, you know, a new, new kind of fairy smut listener like me, or a dragon, you know, all that kind of. There's all sorts of stuff on there you can kind of get behind. It's a good time to have Audible in your ears.

[Em]

Whether it's heart pounding suspense like the Audible original, Mad Love, a fantasy romance adventure like Onyx Storm, or a listen with the lights on Epic. Which is what I would do. Like Stephen King's latest Never Flinch, Audible has you covered. Plus discover big releases like Freedom McFadden's the Tenant and Amelia Hart's the Sirens. Audible offers over a million audiobooks books, podcasts, and originals all in one easy app.

[Christine]

I've listened to all those. Can Recommend Go for it 100%. Start listening and discover what's beyond the edge of your seat. New members can try Audible now free for 30 days, and dive into a world of new thrills. Visit audible.com drink or text drink to 500. 500. So Mother's Day is tough because it feels like, well, I don't know about your mom. I doubt she says this, but my mom says, don't get me anything. You know, Linda doesn't say that, does she?

[Em]

I don't think she's ever strung those words together in that sentence. Now, I think she doesn't know what that means. Yeah, she's. The only thing she's ever said is.

[Christine]

Now, please, please, yes, more please, more, please. And so anyway, Mother's Day is coming up and every year I'm like, oh, my mother, like, you know, she's like, oh, don't get me anything. But I feel, you know, you have to, right? You don't have to. But it feels like, you know, sometimes I want to. Yeah, sometimes you gotta. And so I was thinking like, oh, every time she sees me, she's like, oh, my God, where did you get this band again? For your Apple watch? Which I'm like, showing right now. And it's this. It's beautiful. Stainless steel bracelet, apple watch band. And I bought it from Quince and I was like, I don't know if it'll fit right. Whatever. I have worn it every single day since I bought it. I wear it on stage. I wear. I wear it constantly. That's what I'm getting her for Mother's Day.

[Em]

Don't tell her you name it. Quince probably has it. And my mother has maybe already owns all of it. I actually don't know. I didn't ask.

[Christine]

But the best part is all quince Items are priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. Again, don't tell Linda and Renata about that. They don't need to know. So thanks, God for quints. Thanks for making Mother's Day just a tad bit easier.

[Em]

Yeah. Thank you so much. And on behalf of my mother, who's also giving Quince things, thank you in advance. Thoughtful, Timeless. Totally her shop Mother's Day at Quince, go to quince.com/drink for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns.

[Christine]

That's Q U I N C E.com drink to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com drink. Okay. Okay, okay. Wow. I don't even know how to begin this.

[Em]

Start with the title is sick.

[Christine]

Okay. I today am covering the story of the. Tell me if you know about it, the Las Cruces Bowling Alley massacre. And I think the fact that people don't, including myself, don't really know the story is also very like, it just really adds a layer of like, like darkness to it because like how do people not know about this? It's almost like how is this not talked about more and how is this not more infamous?

[Em]

Was it, it, it was not within the last 10 years, right?

[Christine]

It was not. It was in 1990.

[Em]

Okay. So yeah, I would start because unfortunately we live in a U.S. americans. We live in a, in a world where there's a massacre every day. So.

[Christine]

Right, right.

[Em]

I could see it getting mixed in the shuffle with that. But yeah, if it was a standalone moment in the 90s, I'm surprised we don't know more about it.

[Christine]

It was a huge, huge deal at the time especially. And I think it just sort of faded away and, and I, I mean who am I, right? I'm just like a podcaster. But I, I think it just hit me so hard that I really started digging into. Well, we'll get into it. But I, I, it's just one of the cases that I really like took book and ran with and like really tried to dig into.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

And it did a number on me. So let's get into it. 1990. I also like, I know we, we give the blanket trigger warning usually of just, you know, true crime has all sorts of, of course, horrible and dark and triggering topics. This one especially just has kind of a lot of different things, but especially to do with children. Again, Again. And so just a warning, if you are not in a good headspace for that, this might not be the one to listen to. So 1990, Las Cruces, New Mexico. It's a pretty small town with about 62,000 residents. And like any good town in the 90s, it has a pop and bowling alley. And this is the place to be. The manager of this bowling alley, the Las Cruces bowling alley is 34 year old Stephanie Sinac and she's the manager. Manager. Her dad actually owns the business and we'll get to him in a minute. His name's Ron. But this place is located downtown. It's being managed by Stephanie, daughter of the owner. The bowling alley had a full kitchen and a chef. So basically this place is like a one stop shop. You go all day you can play with your friends, your family, you can eat, you can play arcade games.

[Em]

They've got at all a one stop dream shop for a parent, especially for a parent.

[Christine]

And it's, it's very 90s, right? Like very arcade, very classic. Just kind of everything you'd want in a family friendly situation. And get this, they even have a daycare built in so that if the parents come with like the older kids or parents have, are on a bowling league, they have a literal like daycare area where.

[Em]

So smart.

[Christine]

These, yeah. Where these employees take care of the kids. It's really cool. And so more than 100 members of a local bowling league gathered there every Monday. This is like the hot spot in town especially for bowlers. And business was really, really good. Uh, the guy who owned it, I mentioned him briefly, his name is Ron Cenac and his daughter is the manager. Uh, her name's Stephanie. And he had recently sold his home on a golf course and for some reason moved into the bowling alley. I don't really understand why the business was going well. I, I don't know if he went in there for financial reasons, if he moved in there to be like close, if he was just in between, like houses. I, I don't really know why he moved in. But what we do know is he had recently moved into the bowling alley and technically lived on the property.

[Em]

It's like a caregiver.

[Christine]

Yeah. Sort of like a caretaker, but like caretaker but also like, not really because he just owned it, but he didn't actually work there. Like he just lived.

[Em]

Oh, that is interesting. Yeah.

[Christine]

I don't know. And on top of it being his literal home, like he lives there at this point, the bowling alley was his family's business. So maybe that's why. Right. Like he wanted to be, you know, in the action. His daughter, like I said, Stephanie, whom I mentioned earlier, she's the manager. And two more of his adult children also worked at the bowling alley. So early February of 1990, Ron is out of town. He's golfing with a friend. And if there's one thing you need to know about Ron, besides that he lives in a bowling alley, is that, is that he loves to golf. Okay, this, this old man loves to golf. Now, according to Ron, he rarely traveled and any traveling he did do was to go golfing. And that is where he was. He was on a golf trip. Meanwhile, back home In Las Cruces, February 10, his daughter Stephanie gets to the bowling alley early to start her shift as manager. And they're getting Ready for the day. It's a Saturday morning so things are going to be, be popping right on a Saturday in the 90s at the bowling alley. Another employee is there too. This is 33 year old Ida Hogan. She is the cook at the bowling alley and she's there prepping the kitchen for all the things they're going to be serving that day. She used to work nights but she had actually changed shifts like very recently because she wanted time to spend with her mom playing bingo in the evenings. So she changed her shifts from evenings to mornings. Now back to manager Stephanie. She had actually brought with her to work her 12 year old daughter Melissa Raypass. And Melissa, she didn't always go to work with her mom but sometimes, especially on a weekend she would go to work with her mom because she worked with her best friend, 13 year old Amy Hauser in the daycare. Okay so it's kind of cute. So the, the mom's the manager, then her daughter and her daughter's best friend like watch the little kids in the adjoining like daycare room. Now as I go I have like some visuals here. I didn't know the best way to do this so I just have them on my iPad. But I just want to give you like a, just a, to give you an idea. This is Melissa, she's 12. Okay.

[Em]

Okay, cool.

[Christine]

This very 90s, very 90s. This is her best friend Amy.

[Em]

Nice.

[Christine]

13. And they arrive with, with Melissa's mom to work in the children's, children's, what do you call it?

[Em]

Daycare.

[Christine]

In the daycare. So Melissa was meeting Amy there and meanwhile Amy's stepdad dropped her off and on the way her stepdad asked her all about what was going on with her life because he'd been out of town for, for a while so he was dropping her off. He took that time to ask her about her day, ask her about her, her friends, her schoolwork, her, her life. She and her stepdad were really close. He dropped her off and he remembers very vividly saying I love you and her turning around saying I love you too. Now we've got 12 and 13 year olds Melissa and Amy, Melissa's mom Stephanie and the cook Ida, that's who's there right now. The next to arrive is 26 year old Steven Teron and he worked as the bowling alley's pin mechanic. And so he arrived at work at 8am a.m. his wife Audrey had a class that Saturday morning and she didn't have time to find a babysitter so he thought he would just Bring his daughters to work. They're six and two. And he thinks, oh well, I'll bring him to work because, you know, Melissa and Amy will be there doing the daycare. And that's great. So here's a picture of the Tehran family. So that's Stephen in the back and then his wife and two daughters. Daughters. And his two daughters are six year old Paula and two and a half year old Valerie. So the girls, the plan is just the girls would spend the day in the daycare. I mean, it's a Saturday at a bowling alley. How much, like, how fun would that be? You get paid as a 13 year old to babysit at the bowling alley with your friend. Like, well, it's perfect.

[Em]

Also a dream when you're 13 and you work where you're gonna play because as soon as you're off your shift, you just get to like go to the arcade or eat a pizza or go bowling.

[Christine]

And they even talked about like that the mom gave, their mom gave them like some dollars to go to the vending machines and pick what snacks they want. You know, like that fun stuff from being a kid that was like, what makes your summer break or your, your Saturday so fun. Just those little things. And so they're looking forward to a fun day. They're all, they all arrive. Stephen arrives with the two girls, planning to put them in the, in the daycare in the child care center. So early that morning, Stephanie's brother, Steve Cenac stops by. And he's the other son of Ron, the golfer and the owner of the establishment. Had a class on Saturday, so he wasn't actually going to work, but he was, he had left his backpack at the bowling alley the night earlier. So he arrived to pick up his backpack on the way to class. And when he arrives, he notices there are two men standing outside near the building. And it strikes him as odd because it's so early on a weekend day. And he's like, what are these two grown men doing here? But they're kind of out of eyesight, out of eye line. He gets a look at them, but he, he doesn't really pay it too much mind. Um, but when he went inside, he realized that the door was unlocked. And he told his sister Stephanie, who was managing that day, hey, lock the door. I didn't bring my keys, so can you please lock up? Like, I don't feel comfortable having all of you here with the girls and everybody. Without, without the door being locked, anybody could just walk in. So on his way out, he reminded Stephanie, you know, lock the door. She's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm busy, you know. And he goes on at around 8am Melissa and Amy, these are the, the babysitters, but basically told Stephanie, Melissa's mom, that they're hungry for breakfast. And Ida is still prepping the kitchen. So Stephanie gave the kids a bunch of quarters to go find snacks from the vending machine. The girls walk to the lobby, got their snacks. They're just like giggling and having fun. On their way back to the office, they encounter two strange men. The men were both armed, and one of them directed Amy and Melissa back to the office at gun. Gunpoint.

[Em]

Oh my God.

[Christine]

The second man found Ida in the kitchen. He snuck up on her from around a corner, put a gun to her side and said, this is a hold up. Come with me. He forced Ida to the office and told her to get on the floor with Stephanie, Amy and Melissa. So all four of them are now helplessly in a corner as the captors are searching the office for money. And now they're all cooperating. They're saying, hey, here's the money. There's a safe there. Take what you need. And all that mattered in that moment to them was to stay calm because, you know, their, their kids are there. They're trying to just cooperate and like, be as. Just not, not provoke these people whatsoever. But the men kept searching for something of value. It was like they couldn't find what they were looking for. And these women are like, I don't know, like, look in the safe, look in the drawers. You can have whatever you want. But they seem dissatisfied with what they're finding, which is, by the way, thousands of dollars in cash and checks. Yeah.

[Em]

So what are you looking for? If they're looking for, what are you looking for?

[Christine]

Exactly. And then Steven Turan walked in. Steven Turan, he's the dad that I mentioned earlier with the mechanic. The pen mechanic. Exactly. And he walks in. He is 26 years old. He served in the National Guard. He recently earned a degree in criminal justice and was planning to become a police officer. So normally this is like the person that would handle his moment. Yeah. But he has two little girls, girls with him. Right. And he's a very serious man. He's a kind person, but he's a very serious man. And his friends and family described him as like, very stern, like, pretty militaristic in like, the way of like, manners and you know, like sit up straight, that kind of thing. He walks in, he sees what's unfolding, these two men and he has a six year old, his two and a half year old daughters, and of course there's no way to. To challenge these men without putting his daughters in harm's way in addition to all the other people in the room. So when they tell him to get on the floor, he does, and he tells his daughters to do so as well. Then suddenly, apparently unprovoked, and with absolutely zero warning, the men start shooting. And the entire incident unfolds in a matter of minutes. And I know I mentioned that Stephanie arrived around 8am right before 8:30am it's not even 8:30am yet. A 911 dispatcher answers a call from Las Cruces bowl, and there's a young girl on the other end of the line, and she says her name's Melissa. And she said, we were all shot in a holdup, all of us were hurt. And she sounded like she was in pain. I mean, you can listen to. And there's a documentary that I'll mention later that was made in 2010. That's. That. I think that's what really effed me up.

[Em]

Like, it was the dispatch call.

[Christine]

Not, not necessarily this. Well, that too, but the whole documentary, because it's. So they use the 911 call, but they also have so many crime scene photos, they go into very specific, gruesome detail. And it's, it's really hard to, to watch and listen to, but so they play the whole call almost. It's, it's like excruciating really, because she's, she's just says, hurry up, hurry up. Right? And. And they're like, how old are you? She says, I'm 2012. And she's, she sounds, she's very calm and she's describing what's happening. And the dispatcher is a little bit like, well, okay, honey, what's going on? She says, I'm the only person awake. And he's trying to understand. He says, what's going on? How many, how many people are hurt? And you just Hear her go, 1.

[Em]

2, oh my God.

[Christine]

3, 4, 5, 6, 6, 7. And he says, 7. And she goes, yeah, and I was shot too. And he says, you were shot too? And she says five times.

[Em]

Oh, my God.

[Christine]

And this man is like, totally like, okay, okay, like, you know, they're on the way. Please just like, stay. You know, you're okay. We're gonna, you know, doing the usual, like, breathe, you know, trying to get her through it. And you can just tell. He's like, I mean, you can't Hear it because he's a professional. But like, you can just.

[Em]

No one's got rattled.

[Christine]

No, Right, exactly. And I mean, later on in the documentary, he comes on and he actually, he and Melissa reunite in. In the documentary after like decades, and he just can't stop crying. And it's like he's like to hear a 12 year old on the line saying, you know, yeah, help me. Somebody shot me five times. And my mom. And you know, it's just, it's just so. And my best friend not to, you.

[Em]

Know, obviously bring up the state of the nation these days, but I feel like if you're a dispatch person, you're almost like it's the gun violence, it's just more. It's more expected now. I mean, back in the 90s, it was like just Columbine, you know, like.

[Christine]

Right.

[Em]

So I feel like it was even more. I don't want to say more jarring, shocking. You know what I mean?

[Christine]

Yeah, I mean, maybe, maybe shocking.

[Em]

Less anticipated than what you might expect as a dispatch color today. I don't know.

[Christine]

No, I can definitely, definitely. I can definitely see that. Especially in a small town, right, where you're just like, apparently there had not been, I think the previous year there had been maybe one death or something like that in the whole town, like in the whole year. And then this happened in February. So it was like something that they couldn't have even remotely prepared for. So, I mean, Emma just gets worse. So they're on the call and he's saying, you know, hold on, they're coming. Keep talking, keep breathing. They're coming. And she goes, you need to send the fire department to. And he goes, what? And she goes, oh, they set the building on fire.

[Em]

And he goes, to get rid of the evidence.

[Christine]

Oh, yeah. And he goes, oh, my God. Well, is there. Do you smell smoke? And she's like, yeah, we're about to be burned. And he's like, there's a fire there right now. And she goes, yes, I see the fire. It's right next to me and I can't move. There's a fire. Fire. And so now this. It's just like these people shot up everybody in the building and then set fire to the place. And so, you know, of course, police officers, paramedics arrive. The dispatcher asked if she could smell smoke. She said, yes, it's right here. It's going to burn me and it's going to burn everyone in the room if you don't get here now. She didn't even know if the attackers are still in the building. And when police arrive just minutes later when they're calling her to come out, she's just too scared to even move. She's like, I don't know who they are. I mean, she's in shock.

[Em]

I was gonna say. I can't imagine the adrenaline that is just keeping her surviving in that moment. And then I imagine once you hang up the phone, it's like, I've done everything I can. Now I'm probably feeling all the pain. And now I'm realizing that's it. Like, now I'm seeing all the people. Like, it's not just counting objects. It's realizing I'm surrounded by seven people not waking up. People are probably already catching on fire if the fire's that close to me.

[Christine]

It's like that, like, adrenaline rush of, like, taking action. And then when you've. When you're done taking actions, like the come down of like now looking around. Exactly. And like, actually absorbing what happened.

[Em]

Petrifying.

[Christine]

Petrifying. And. And she. She could barely get off the phone. And when they play it, it's just so sad because you can hear the dispatcher say. She goes, like, you told me to stay on the phone. And he's like, I know, honey, but, like, you have to go to the police. They're here. You know, it's okay to hang up. You can hang up now. And she's like, are you sure? And he's like, yes. Like, she doesn't know what to do. Now get this. She had learned about 911 the previous week at school. Like, she had never heard of 911 the week before at school. They had done a session on 91 1. And she said, like, to this day, she's like, it must have just been somewhere in my head because she just newly.

[Em]

In your brain. Yeah.

[Christine]

Newly minted information. She, like, she said, if I didn't know about that, I don't know what would have happened. I don't know if we. Anybody would have gotten out.

[Em]

We do know what would have. Would have happened.

[Christine]

Well, we probably know exactly what would have happened. Right. She was the only conscious one. If she hadn't known what to do. And it's just. It's just so scary. So she was too terrified to even hang up the phone and. And go to the police. But finally the dispatcher convinced her that she was safe and that she needed to hang up and escape the fire. So she followed the instructions and she described where to get to the. How to get to the office so the police could find her back there. And when they found her, 12 year old Melissa, she's still on the phone alone, she's been shot multiple times, she's surrounded by fire. There are six unconscious victims laying around her. And like I said, she had just learned about 91 1. So she's just in total shock. She doesn't even know like how she managed to get to this point with the dispatcher's insistence that she needs to get away from the flames, she, she hangs up the phone and she runs out of the room. And even despite the bullet wound wounds, she flees to the parking lot with an officer where she sat in a police vehicle until paramedics arrived. They rushed her to the hospital and when first responders went inside the building, they found the other six victims. They, they brought them out of the office before triaging them to get them away from the fire. Ida woke up briefly when a first responder asked for her name. She gave her name and apparently when she heard her own voice, she felt shocked. She was alive, like she heard herself speak and was like, I can't believe I'm alive. And then fell back into and lost consciousness again.

[Em]

Sure.

[Christine]

She was wheeled to an ambulance. Meanwhile, this is where I just like. So Stephen, who had brought his two daughters in, his wife Audrey, she was, she had been in class that morning and she had been growing increasingly nervous after. At the, at school nearby, she and her classmates had heard sirens flying past their school that morning.

[Em]

Such a small town where one person dies a year, like what's all the sirens?

[Christine]

What could have. There's an emergency. Right. You think, like, what are the odds? But also, yeah, it's a small town, like I don't feel right. And when she called the bowling alley during a break between her classes, nobody answered. So she's getting just more and more nervous. When she goes to lunch, she catches the end of a news report that seven people were shot. But she doesn't hear about the bowling alley. And so she just is like getting uneasy. Uneasy. She doesn't know what this shooting is about.

[Em]

Like best case scenario, it's probably someone you know or someone you know knows.

[Christine]

Yeah. Or at least someone in town, which is like still scary. Like a spree shooting is scary whether you know, you know, especially when it's nearby. And so she's really on edge. So she doesn't hear any more details. She goes back to school, she calls the bowling alley again, no answer. And she and her friend just made up their minds to leave class and drive to the bowling alley. And another classmate says, hey, I just heard there was a robbery at the bowling alley. And Audrey knows her husband and two daughters are there. Let me just get this for.

[Em]

Yeah, get the. Just to really break everyone's heart.

[Christine]

To really show. Show. Yeah, just to show what's going on. So Audrey, she is, she knows that Steven and her two daughters are at the bowling alley. And so she panics, she goes there with a friend, she rushes to the scene, police stop her in the parking lot and she tells them, hey, my husband and daughters are inside. And so they sit her down and they say, we have something to tell you. Your husband has been shot. And she of course breaks down, but she says, can I just have my girls, please? And you know, she's waiting for them to bring the girls. They say, hang on, the officers come back and they say, we have something really horrible to tell you. Six year old Paula has been pronounced dead at the scene as well. And just because it's worth sharing, this is a photo of Paula at age 6. And her mother was told Paula has been killed. So when Audrey asks the other baby.

[Em]

Where'S the other one, their two year.

[Christine]

Old Valerie, they say, you have to get to the hospital. She's in critical condition. Condition.

[Em]

So oh my God.

[Christine]

She is about to be rushed to the hospital, of course, praying the whole way there. Meanwhile, Amy, 13 year old Amy, her mother Gloria woods, is also rushing to the hospital. She worked as a baker at a food warehouse and another employee passed along a phone message just saying something bad happened at the bowling alley. And all she knows is that her daughter's there babysitting today. So she's, she doesn't really know much more than that. But that's got to be like such a gut punch feeling. And so she tries to return the call. No one's picking up at the bowling alley. So she and her friend drive there and the police, she tells the police, my daughter's inside. And the officers, you know, it's a small town, they know her. And they say, Gloria, you have to go to the hospital. So they're on the way to the hospital, both Gloria and Audrey, and separately, and they rush to their respective daughter's sides at the hospital. Gloria arrived at the room of 13 year old Amy, her daughter, and she was told that her daughter had died. When Audrey arrived, she saw a priest in the hospital room and she knew immediately something was very wrong. And a social worker was there as well. And they told her two and a half year old Valerie was also dead. So Audrey Wanted to know. I also have just like another little picture of Valerie at that age, age two and a half, just to give you an idea of like what kind of person would, you know, shoot a toddler in the head. So she gets to the hospital, this, there's a social worker and a priest and they say like your, your whole family has just been killed. Good morning. You know, you went to class and now your husband and both your daughters are dead. So Audrey asked whether Valerie died on the table or if someone had held her in her final moments. And they told her that after a medical team spent 45 minutes trying to save Valerie, a nurse hugged her to her chest. And Valerie, she was conscious also through a lot of it and was just scared and didn't know what was going on. They said she was just calling for her mom the whole time. It's just horrible. I'm sorry. But they said that they spent 45 minutes trying to save her. And then a nurse just picked her up and held her for a while and she just like it clung onto the nurse's neck until she passed away. And so this woman had just like lost her entire family in one morning. Like in just one morning, her whole family's gone. And so Anthony Tehran, which Stephen, younger brother, this is, this would be Audrey's brother in law. So her husband Stephen had a 19 year old brother who was in college and he was just like having a lazy Saturday morning. 19 years old. He heard, hears something on the radio about like a shooting, but he doesn't hear the bowling alley part so it doesn't really like strike him. But so he gets a call a few minutes later from the hospital and he didn't even put it together that, that it had something to do with, with this shooting he'd kind of overheard on the radio. He arrives and he sees Audrey crying beside a priest. And he, he thought like, maybe my brother's sick, you know, like what? Or maybe my brother's been in a car accident and he's on and he needs surgery, right? And he arrives and his sister in law tells him, your brother and both nieces are dead, someone murdered them. And he became so overwhelmed with rage that he punched a hole in the hospital's wall. And Audrey's first instinct was to go and take his hand and try to make sure it wasn't hurt. And he said it, it so shook him out of that like anger that angry days almost that she having just lost her whole family was like trying to bandage up his hand, that he was like, no, I Need to reign it in and, like, be there for her. Like, get myself in check, you know, and be there for her. And he, he said later in an interview, my mind changed instantly and I realized I needed to be there for Audrey and support her. And he kind of just like, reined it in and got himself together. Meanwhile, this news is spreading. The victims are learning about this. There are some survivors. Melissa, who made the phone call, Stephanie, Melissa's mother, and Ida, the cook. They're the only survivors. Authorities scoured Las Cruces for any signs of the murderers. Um, it's just so out of left field that this would happen and that a bunch of children would be killed. It's. It's just so jarring, especially for a town where, you know, one murder occurred last year. It's like, it's just completely out of fear, especially.

[Em]

It's such a. I mean, the extra twisted part too is it's not like it was like a random facility. It was like a family based institution where, like, everyone is hired through family and friends. And it's. Yeah, you know, given the state of the world, it is one of the last standing third places where people could all go and socialize. And I mean, so it was a very communal area.

[Christine]

It's supposed to be safe. Right. It's like for families. It's, it's. Children are being babysat. It's. It's games and fun. Yeah, that's such a good point. It should be like a fun, safe, happy place. And so as all this going on and police are trying to get as much information as they can, Steve, the one who stopped by for his background backpack, he told police about those two guys he had noticed in the parking lot. And he said, I saw these two guys. It was a little weird, but I didn't know what to do. Like, they were just standing there. I didn't. You know, I'm sure he probably kicked himself later, but, like, what's he gonna do? You know, they're just standing around. And when he describes this, these two men, police realize the description's pretty similar to what Melissa described. So they're thinking, yeah, these are definitely the same. Same guys, sure. So the dispatcher asked Melissa whether they were white or black. Melissa said black. But then once she was safe and had time to give better details, they kind of like got more into the nitty gritty. And combined with Steve's descriptions, they were able to actually create like a much more specific report. And the police determined they were looking for two men who they described as. Whom they described as Hispanic who were not black but had dark complexion. It was believed that one of the murderers was a young man following the lead of an older man. So it's sort of like that criminal minds trope of one man is, like, kind of in charge and the other one's the follower. Yeah, like persuading the other one into doing stuff. They might have been in their 20s and 40s, respectively, was the guess. I also have pictures, just so you know, of the mug shots. And I'm going to. I'm going to get to those at the end because there's something I want to add to that as well. Okay. But we'll get. We'll get to those as well. And for all these pictures, we'll put them on social media because it's worth looking at just to kind of get an idea. So police set up roadblocks at every route out of the city. And they even brought Steve to one of the roadblocks to see if he could recognize anyone, you know, coming through. There were some people coming through who had $12,000 in cash on that. Them. So they brought Stephen in to see if, like, these had it, these were the right people, but they weren't a match. And, yeah, he took a look at them and said, none of them match the description of the people I saw this morning. And honestly, the descriptions of these two men, like, matched a lot of people in New Mexico. It wasn't that unusual for someone to have dark complexion and be in his 40s.

[Em]

You know, he looks like a human being. Oh, okay.

[Christine]

Exactly. And so it's hard. It was hard to even narrow it down. And so they wanted to make the most specific, specific composite image that they possibly could. And that's why at the end, I really want to get into that, because I think this is where technology is really changing the game. Authorities first created computer composites, but then when someone hand sketched the. The drawings, Steve felt they were much, much more accurate. He actually said they were dead on when he looked at them. Okay, those were the two people. The likenesses were so close. He said it, like, gave him chills to look at the images. So they get helicopters. They're canvassing downtown. They're searching for any witnesses. They follow leads across the country as far as Florida, but everything is a dead end. Days, weeks, months pass. No new suspects. Tips continue to come in. They go nowhere. Investigators review the case again and again. They're just thinking, this can't be a robbery gone wrong. Like, what the hell, you know, Especially.

[Em]

When they Were like, they were mad about not being able to find something.

[Christine]

Something. Right.

[Em]

Because they were like. Like the thousands of dollars wasn't enough. It's like, I feel like they were told by someone, oh, you know, they've got this item here. Like, the rumor is in the back room. They've got this one thing. Like, they were clearly looking for something specific.

[Christine]

Now, do you know why I maybe mentioned that Ron lived on the property?

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

I don't want to. This is all very alleged because. Not alleged even. It's just a theory. Because people wonder, and we're gonna get into it, but people wonder about whether something shady was happening. And that's kind of why I say I don't know why he was. Quite frankly, I don't know why he was living on the property. It could have been going so well. You know, it could have been a perfectly normal reason. But it's like, I don't know. It's just worth noting because. Because.

[Em]

Because he could have had something personal hanging out.

[Christine]

Who knows? Yeah. Or he could have been mixed up in something and, like, gotten people involved. You never know. And so we'll get to that. But essentially they're thinking, this can't be a robbery gone wrong. You know, these men shot seven people execution style. Like, seven people who were all willing.

[Em]

To just lie there and not cause harm. Yeah.

[Christine]

Who were all cooperating. And we have three people who survived and said. We all just sat there and said, do whatever you need to do. Take whatever you want, want. And they just shot all of them. I mean, multiple times. And it's just abhorrent. And. And it's like, of course it's all abhorrent. But then to hear that a two and a half year old was shot in the forehead. She was shot in the forehead. And her mom still talks about, like, her mom is interviewed on. In this documentary, and her mom talks about, like, that image of her where she kind of has those big eyes and she's like, I know she was looking up at this person. Person. And they put a gun between her eyes and shot her. And she was alive for. For, however, 45 more minutes looking for me, you know? And she said. And they asked, what do you think happened in those last 45 minutes of Valerie's life? And she said, I think she was really confused. And I think she couldn't decide. She was like, I don't think she couldn't decide if she wanted to go with her dad and her sister or if she wanted to stay and help me. Me, like, on Earth. But she said she, she's like, I just know that she couldn't decide between like staying and helping me, like get through this or going with her dad and sister. And she said that when later the doctors told her, told Audrey that Valerie would have been a quadriplegic, and she said she thinks her daughter just said, like, it was too much for. Yeah, it would have been too much for my mom. And so it was better for me to go. But like just hearing her talk about like the 45 minutes where she couldn't decide whether or not to stay and it's like she's two. Yeah, it's just like, kills me. It's just like people are evil. So people in the community are just like horrified because it's one thing to obviously like shoot anybody, but to shoot a two year old in the head, like, for no reason is just insane. And then like a 6 year old, 12 year old, 13, I mean, four children, like, what are you doing? And so it's just horrible. Anyway, it seemed unlikely that these two burglars would just shoot a toddler for like a couple thousand bucks, you know, it just didn't, it didn't add up. And so, you know, investigators had to start thinking, like, maybe this was premeditated or maybe this was personal. And the facts were that the men didn't wear masks, which was also unusual for, like, if you're just going in to rob a place, right, you don't want anyone to see you. And so not wearing a mask almost implies, like, you wouldn't leave witnesses, you know, 100. And so it seemed also that they knew the bowling alley, they knew where the office was. So it's like they had either cased the joint before or they had been there before, you know. Yeah.

[Em]

Wouldn't be hard because if everyone's going in and out there all the time, you wouldn't even notice if.

[Christine]

Very true. On a busy day, a hundred people at a bowling league, you just pop.

[Em]

In, in the 90s, going on a Friday night and like.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

And it seems like everyone in town knew someone on a bowling league, you know.

[Christine]

Exactly. And so it's a, it's not like a. Exactly. It's not a hard thing to suss out, especially if, you know, maybe that they don't lock the door. You know, if you keep an eye on it for a couple days, realize they don't lock the door. So weirdly enough, they also left several thousand of several thousand dollars just laying there. So it's like, what is the point of this, like, did it get out of hand? Like, did one of them go roll?

[Em]

They were definitely looking for drugs or something else.

[Christine]

It feels like something more, which I.

[Em]

Don'T think maybe it was the guy who lived upstairs. But also I'm imagining every 90s 80s show, I feel like there was a guy working at the bowling alley who was also the local drug dealer. So it could have been.

[Christine]

Please hear the next bullet point. I'm not even shitting with you right now, okay? Journalists asked investigators if the attack was drug related. They asked if the murderers had escaped south into Mexico. They asked if someone in the victim's families knew the murders. A police captain said to one reporter, everything's possible because they had like no clue. And the truth was that. Well, we'll get to the drug thing in a moment because I do sort of have like a little bit of info for you on the guy at the bowling alley who may or may not be doing some illicit activities. But other than that, they had very little to go on. They had rumor and they had like a couple witnesses who were obviously deeply traumatized. And the fire itself had also badly damaged the scene. They had to put the fire out. It got rid of a lot of evidence. And, you know, DNA in forensic investigations was very new technology in 1990, so that was not necessarily a priority. Investigators said they were analyzing evidence, collected the scene, but they were also relying. They needed someone from the public to come forward with, with something bigger to, to push the case forward. And they were just hoping somebody would. And of course, with no answers, then that's when the rumors about like, what could have happened, who could have been involved, start growing. And here are some examples. You know, everyone's pointing fingers, everyone's saying, like, my theory is this or that guy was always shady or what have you. Which is why I'm like a little hesitant to kind of be too blase about, about Ron and all that, but.

[Em]

Right.

[Christine]

It's worth mentioning that Steven's brother Anthony, the one who was just infuriated by this whole thing and you know, was there was the punched the hole in the wall then and then tried to protect his sister in law. He was really, really strong in his conviction that the bowling alley owner, Ron Cenac, knew the murderers. That was what he believed.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

Um. Meanwhile, Ron's son, remember how Ron's kids all worked at the bowling alley. Ron's son rj, Who's Stephanie's younger brother and Steve's younger brother, worked at the bowling alley bar. And people claim that he used to Purchase cocaine at work from sellers he met at the bowling alley. So that really just goes exactly to your point of the 90s and the bowling alley. And it was always doing some dealings.

[Em]

Like the bowling alley or the roller rink or something.

[Christine]

The roller rink. Rink, right.

[Em]

There was always someone who knew someone who was.

[Christine]

Who's just kind of like around a.

[Em]

Little more insidious than the roller rink.

[Christine]

Yeah, totally, totally. And yeah, weird, weird, very 90s vibe to have like a kind of sinister underlying to all of the fun.

[Em]

But also if it is like a communal hub, third place, like everyone, including the people who are selling weed or whatever. Yeah, we're probably going to be there. So.

[Christine]

Right. It's like if this is, if this is a small town and you know, hundreds of people are going here, here and teenagers and whatever. Yeah. So. So I will add this is also just rumors and this is discussed in interviews, but there's no real evidence that this, that the son of the owner was buying cocaine.

[Em]

Right.

[Christine]

Just people claimed. Yeah, well, it's actually, it's, it's a rumor. It's what people said happened. But we don't have any real proof of this because of course he denies it. Right. Rumors spread that the murders murderers were actually there to steal drugs like you had mentioned, which were supposedly hidden somewhere in the bow alley. And you know, my thought is too like, of course it sounds insane to shoot a bunch of kids, but it's like if you're high out of your mind on meth or something and you can't even think straight and you're like looking, you know, who knows what, you accidentally trigger yourself and, and go off like it's not a mind of a rational person as far as I'm concerned. You know, or, or somebody who's, I mean even whatever. Okay, we'll get into it. Um, so rumors spread that perhaps Ron, the owner is in some sort of illegal business. Um, he always kind of had some people like side eyeing him. Of course he claims, nope, this is just a family run business, family friendly. The end. And some people believe the attack was orchestrated to seek revenge against him for some slight or to send a message and scare him. But like nobody could prove any of that. That. And I mean for what it's worth, amidst these rumors, Steve said this is the brother. Steve said it was painful for his family to be continually accused of being somehow responsible when like his own sister and niece were almost killed. Which is a fair point. Right. Like they, they were traumatized by this as well and, and deeply affected. He struggled to make sense of the. The shocking violence. Like, he even said, why on earth would you walk into a bowling alley without a mask on to rob them and then shoot everybody? Like, even he said, it makes no sense and it has nothing to do with our family. So it's a lot of, like, rumors and speculation because there just weren't any other clues. So I will say there's some stuff that Ron did that I felt was a little weird. He. Do you remember the day of the week that this attack occurred? No, it was a Saturday. Because it was, like, a big busy day for the bowling alley. It was a Saturday morning. Well, this is, of course, national headline news. Like, this is huge. And Monday morning, he reopens the bowling alley for business.

[Em]

Whoa. Okay.

[Christine]

He goes, well, I didn't want to disappoint the bowling league. It's really important to them. They really wanted.

[Em]

I would argue they're already disappointed. Yeah. They're already feeling things. And disappointment is not maybe even on the list.

[Christine]

Basically, the community.

[Em]

Who wants to go there?

[Christine]

I mean, he goes. He goes, well, you have to understand, like, these people, they want to bowl. And I went, okay. Hello. What the is wrong with you?

[Em]

Like, it's their therapy after children were just shot in the head there.

[Christine]

Like, it's not. It's not like I. I'm blaming you for doing anything. I just think that's a thing to do. Like, it's just.

[Em]

It's just not a reading. Reading the room at all. Like, it's like. And it's also, like, complete lack of just not, well, consideration. But compassion is like.

[Christine]

Compassion. Yes. It's like, how horrible to be, like, the family member and find out two days later, like, open for business.

[Em]

Like, do you really think people are in the mood to bowl right now?

[Christine]

Yeah, well, apparently they were. They just opened up and everybody came back on in and it's. And it's like, hello.

[Em]

So weird. So the whole town. I kind of am weird side eyeing. I'm like, why anyone? I wouldn't want to be on the premises where, like, children just died.

[Christine]

I wish I could. Yeah. I want. Yeah. Wow. What a shocking statement. M. Call me crazy, right? It. I wonder. I don't know. I don't know. I can't explain it. He was like, oh, well, it was a really. They had a important tournament. Okay.

[Em]

Like, you couldn't, like, push the tournament. Tournament. You can just move it.

[Christine]

Hello.

[Em]

I'm pretty sure everyone would understand.

[Christine]

Like, and I don't think that makes him guilty. I just think it makes him An. So I was like, what the.

[Em]

Yeah, no, I don't. I don't. I don't think he's guilty either. I think he's just like, we're not being sensitive to this.

[Christine]

No, he's not being sensitive at all. And honestly, it struck me like your own daughter was shot and your granddaughter was shot and almost killed. Your granddaughter was shot and almost killed yesterday. What are you doing? It's just so weird to me. It's so weird to me. And I. I just had to say it. Anyway, everyone.

[Em]

Sorry. Sorry.

[Christine]

No, I mean, it could be. And it. You're right. It could be something. Maybe he's on the spectrum or something and he doesn't even realize how off putting this is. Like, maybe, you know, there's so many things that could be true and I can see him. It also looks like an assholey move to me.

[Em]

Yeah, no, it looks bad for sure.

[Christine]

It's like his lawyer really should have said, don't fucking do that.

[Em]

You know, someone should have gone to.

[Christine]

Him, been like, someone should have said, don't do that.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

And it. That along with, like, he's living there and he sold his house. I'm like, what is going on? If business is so good, why is he having to sell his house and move into the bowling alley? Like, I don't know. Something just strikes me as so weird.

[Em]

Something's happening in his personal life outside of this.

[Christine]

Yeah. Whether it's. Whether it's related or not, something feels weird with this guy. I don't know. So, yeah, everyone who was involved that day and even people who weren't involved but were just in the community were. Were trying to figure out what. Pointing fingers, trying to figure out what had happened, but there was no solid lead whatsoever. So fast forward the one year anniversary of the attack, they hold a memorial mass at the local Catholic church. The community prays for answers. Another year passes. Local media does another big shout out about it, hoping for some track action. Nothing. Ida, who was the cook, her recovery was really an uphill battle, as I can only imagine.

[Em]

Sure. Yeah. Would you even want to. Would you even want to work there again?

[Christine]

Oh, no. She never stepped foot on the property again. No.

[Em]

Yeah. How could you?

[Christine]

Okay. Yeah. How could you? And, and, and she. After six months in the hospital, she did years of rehabilitation. She. She had brain injuries. I mean, these people were shot multiple times and in the head. According to her husband, Raymond. She'd walk up to a water fountain, but she forgot how to turn it on. Like she had to work on so many. Just basic things to. To try and get back to some sort of normalcy. In 1999, nine years after the attack, Melissa's mom, Stephanie, died of complications from her injuries. And Melissa talks about her mom. It's very touching and hard to watch Melissa talk on the documentary because. Because she's the one who called 911. She was 12 to this day. In the documentary, which was made in 2010, she was in her 30s. And she talks about just how she still had. She's like, maybe someday I'll process this. You know, she just is.

[Em]

And if you don't, that's fine. I mean, exactly. Come on.

[Christine]

Like, I. I hope. I hope. I hope for healing. Right? But it's like, no, there's no timeline on that. You know, I can't even imagine. And. And the way she talked about her mom, Mom. She said her mom was always just this bright, fun, spunky person. And then after this happened, her mom completely changed, was just very down.

[Em]

Yeah, Always. Yeah. I mean, can't blame her.

[Christine]

No, no. And she said her life's never the same. She was always hyper, vigilant. She had severe ptsd. And so Melissa said, you know, she also lost the mom she knew. She, of course, lost her own innocence. She lost her best friend. She watched two babies get killed in front of her. Just all really, really horrific stuff. And so Melissa's mother died in 1999, which was nine years after the attack. But, you know, Melissa kind of said her mom was really never the same after the attack at all. More years passed, and then the media kind of moved on. Right. Like, things happen. Bigger things happen, more mass shootings happen. Just the news cycle continues. And in 2010, finally, a filmmaker named Charlie Min released a documentary called A Nightmare in Las Cruces. I. It took me several days to watch. I'm not usually that shaken by the true crime shows or genres or whatever, but this one was especially tough because, of course, it's children, Children. A lot of crime scene footage, a lot of detail about the actual deaths. And it's. It's not necessarily my. I had to skip certain segments where I thought I just. It's too much. So just a warning if. If you're. But it is on. It's on most. You can rent it on most YouTube and all that. So the media largely moved on this. This documentary comes out in 2010. And it. It's this. It's this. It's this big thing. You know, they're hoping, like, this will renew interest in the case, perhaps Encourage someone to come forward. Nothing happens. These people go through this big documentary. It's a big production. They. They. I mean, this woman, Audrey, has to rehash the death of her entire family again. She holds up a little bathing suit that she says her sister got for her daughter. Daughter. And she said her daughter was obsessed with this little, like, polka dot bathing suit. And she's like, she wore it every day. She was obsessed with it. And she said, I. I like to show it, to show you how small her body was. Like, this is what somebody did. This is who somebody killed. And she holds it up, and it's like. I mean, it's like 12 inches tall, this teeny little thing. And she's like, this is how big she was. And they just looked right in her eyes and. And killed her. And it's just horrific. I mean, it's really. It's a really tough watch. So. So I just. Just heads up. So this guy, Charlie Min, he had never stopped thinking about the Las Cruces incident since he first heard about it in the news. And he really wanted to hopefully encourage people to come forward, but nobody came forward. And each year, Las Cruces authorities make statements, trying to get people to think of anything they can, and yet nothing has happened. And on the 30th anniversary, which was February 2020, friends and family gathered for a candlelight vigil in the parking lot of the now closed bowling alley. Ida the cook did not attend because, like I said, she never went back to the bowling alley. It was too hard for her. But her husband went in her place to honor the victims who didn't survive that day. And when journalists asked him about Ida, he said she had found happiness in her first grandchild, discovering what she felt was a purpose for her survival and recovery. And it's like, you know, meanwhile, Audrey has lost everybody. It's just like, how do you find purpose? I don't know. Audrey and the trans reminisced on Stephen, Paula, Valerie, and this two months ago. February 2025, was the 35th anniversary of the case. Las Cruces authorities once again made a public appeal for any information. Stephen said it's been hard, getting harder just to keep up with this every year. Hopefully, someone gets over their fear of these guys and decides to come forward. And what they're saying is, like, somebody must fucking know. These people, they don't keep their mouth shut, okay? These people are. I mean, they're shooting up children. They're not rational people. They're gonna. They're gonna talk. Somebody knows Something.

[Em]

Yeah. But also like, for all we know, like, they. The next day they died. Like, and then it just went to their grave. Like it. Or they went to jail for a completely different thing. And no one's. They're not out there for people to be looking for.

[Christine]

I know, I know, I know, I know. But it's like, if you see that, it's like, there has to be some.

[Em]

They're so cocky that some they had to brag to somebody.

[Christine]

But it's also like, why in this town, you know, they must know someone.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Either related to Ron or related to the bowling alley related to the town.

[Em]

Let's say it was Ron and drugs or something. Like, it's not that there's no way Ron only had two enemies and both of them were willing to shoot people. Like, there's. There has to be a range of gray.

[Christine]

Right. Like, doesn't have to be more connections here somewhere, even if it wasn't Ron, but just like an employee. Or say it was like somebody in town gave a wrong. A false tip about the bowling alley. Like, somebody must have known. And. And the reason I also am just so confident about that is that there's something about these mug shots. Especially when Steven said, oh, oh, that gave me chills. How spot on it was. I'm gonna show the mug shots now. That is the end of the story of the Las Cruces Bowling Alley massacre. It's one of those that is just so shocking to me that you don't hear about, you know, much because it's like the number of children alone. Like, it's just such a shocking, shocking story. Before I show the mug shots, which I have, like, not mug shots. I'm sorry. Before I show the composite sketches, I want to add that tips can be given anonymously to Las Cruces Crime Stoppers. You can call 575-5526 8000 and I would like to show you some of the composite sketches. Because something about them. Em, I was like, I feel like I know those guys and I don't mean it in a literal way. Like I know them personally. It just something about it. I'm like, someone knows these people.

[Em]

Familiar, relief. Evil. Yeah.

[Christine]

Yeah. It's like something is just. Just freaking me out. I need a better picture because these ones are. I. I had a whole document. Sorry.

[Em]

You're good.

[Christine]

I'm being. This is the end, I promise.

[Em]

But no.

[Christine]

Okay. So it's. It's kind of hard to see, but these are. These are the original, like, hand drawn sketches of what these men looked like, their, their age progressed. So, okay, the, the ones on the.

[Em]

Left are the originals.

[Christine]

The are the originals. The ones on the right are what they are presumably looking like nowadays, or at least not nowadays, but like, you know, progressed into the future a couple decades. And then what I found, which was so interesting to me, there's this website, this, this company, I think they're out of Sweden. I hope, I hope I'm getting that correct. AI Witness Report. Now. This is crazy. I've never seen anything like it. Can I share, I don't know how to do this. Can I share my screen with you real quick?

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

This is a website called AI Witness Report. What this person does is they take AI or they take old sketches like this and then they create like AI composites of what a photograph of this person would look like.

[Em]

So it's an even more like realistic photograph than just this drawing. That's awesome.

[Christine]

Isn't that unsettling?

[Em]

Yeah. And the worst thing too is that the only people who could confirm if this is even more accurate are people who like, shouldn't have to ever look at this face space again.

[Christine]

Yeah, exactly, exactly. And so look at how they, they do this for all of these different.

[Em]

Wow.

[Christine]

Unsolved cases. And it's like even really, really old ones. Like there are some that are from. I mean, I'm talking like Jack the Ripper or like middle age, look, 1849. Like some really, really old ones that.

[Em]

What's this website called?

[Christine]

So it's called AI hyphen witness-report.com and they have an Instagram as well. But here are these two guys that I wanted to show you. These are the two. On February 10, 1992, armed robbers entered a bowling alley in Las Cruces, New Mexico. During the robbery, they shot seven people at point blank range, including a two year old and a six year old girl. Five, five of them were fatally wounded. And here are the two men. These are the original pictures that were drawn and were. That gave chills to Stephen who saw them in the parking lot and said they were so, so spot on. And this is the younger one on the left and the older one on the right. Right. And now this person has created these kind of. And you can almost, you can slide the sliders to look at the AI version of them. But I just think that's so incredible. Like what a cool use of, you know, learning stem, Right? Yes, exactly. Let's, let's give a round of applause for actually using AI for good for once, you know, but it's just, it's these pictures just really got me because. Because it feels like if somebody knows somebody that they might have an inkling about and then look at this photo and go, oh, that looks awful. Like him.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

It just feels like there's too much there for it to not be solved. And it really kills me that this woman, her entire family has been just completely obliterated violently, and she has no idea who did it.

[Em]

And also, I bring this up every single time when people get away, but like, imagine the paranoia of the survivors of like, are they gonna finish the job? And like, nobody's gonna know.

[Christine]

And the trauma of just like living with that constant fear over your shoulder.

[Em]

Like, are they poor Ida, Like, I mean, even.

[Christine]

And by the way, she was an adult. She was 33. That's how old we are. Like at the. You know, it's like looking at all the children, of course, it's like deeply, horribly traumatic. But then you think even the adults were 26, 33. Like, they're not, you know, not that anyone is at an age where they can handle a mass shooting, obviously, but.

[Em]

In my mind they're like, they're grown ups and like to me, grown ups.

[Christine]

And it feels like they're grown ups. And then you're like, no, that's like if we were standing there, like, no wonder.

[Em]

I mean, it's the paranoia too, of wondering, like, are they people in our community? Am I driving past them all the time? And they know that I. They shot me. And I just don't know. I just. That that would eat me alive.

[Christine]

And that is why I want these photos to go out everywhere. Please, let's get these photos out. I just want to figure out who the hell shot a two year old in the head and a six year old. I mean, a two year old. Like, to hear, to hear the girl describe it on. Oh my God, it's so horrific to hear Melissa talk about, about. By the way. What also really upset me is I was going through and I was putting together like the faces and names of all these people, especially the kids, putting them all. And the number of sources that spelled their names wrong. I just found it weirdly, like insulting. I mean, it like, it like rubbed me the wrong way. And I, I don't mean to be like that stickler person, but it's like it just, I find it to.

[Em]

It's like at least honor who they were.

[Christine]

It's shitty journalism. I'm sorry. Like, you can look at, literally you can look at Valerie's Gravestone and see that her name is spelled differently than every news article writes it. And by the way, her gravestone has Ernie from Burton Ernie on it and it makes me just want to cry. But Melissa, her name is spelled like a little differently. It has an extra I in there. Not a single not Wikipedia, not crime junkie podcast. Nobody fucking spelled her name right. And it like fucking pisses me off. Like she's still alive. Like, come on, just spell her name right. I don't know why that bothers me so much. And I'm not trying to target anybody in particular. I'm just saying the only people I found that spelled her name right were the documentarians who knew her personally and the Las Cruces, the local newspaper. Everybody else spelled it wrong and it just really irked me. And I just want to give her like so much strength and love because she's fighting out there, man. So that is the case of the Las Cruces bowling alley incident. To just lose like a 13 year old, a two and a half year old, a six year old, the innocence of a 12 year old who lost her best friend. Her mom just watched the most horrific thing unfold. A mom losing her entire family in one fell swoop. It's just all extremely like a dad trying to protect his kids and then having to die with them all at the same time.

[Em]

Who wants to be a cop, who like.

[Christine]

Yep, it's. Yep. It just all is so. It's just nightmare fuel. I've really just been.

[Em]

Out haunted by it.

[Christine]

Yeah, it's been haunting me, honestly. But I really love that there are things we're doing now, like these AI kind of, you know, creating like more photorealistic versions of what people would look like. And hopefully that can help in some way. So we'll post those as well. And please, please, if you have any connection to the area or know anything, take a look, see if you know anything. You know, it really kills me that this mom has no answers. But that's the story, morning glory.

[Em]

Well, if anyone would like a ice bath from that and something refreshing to listen to instead, you can go over to our Patreon and I don't know. I don't know how to transition, but I'll do it.

[Christine]

I'm gonna. My therapist told me sour candy can help reset your vagus nerve. I don't know if she's just saying that to make me feel better.

[Em]

I think she just wants to eat a sour candy.

[Christine]

I'm gonna. She gave me a warhead one time and it's like broke my brain. And she said, see? And I went, I don't know what I'm supposed to see, but I spit it out anyway.

[Em]

So that'll be 300?

[Christine]

Yeah, that'll be 300. I'm gonna be eating my airheads and trying to recover from that. And, you know, we're gonna chit chat. We'll probably talk about M's childhood trauma and why, why they didn't speak to their mom for a year. I'll probably cry about something again. And that's it. So see us on Patreon.com ATW Podcast if you're sick of us, I get it. We'll see you next week. And if you want to come see us live, we'll be in Vegas and we'll be a lot more fun. I promise. That's mostly ghost stuff. We're not going to bum you out on. On tour.

[Em]

So this is why we focus on people wonder why it's mainly paranormal. It's because otherwise audiences leave feeling like this.

[Christine]

Yeah, I tried that and it didn't. It wasn't cute for anybody. So we do ghosts on the tour. Come see the ghost show. And it's at. That's why you drink dot com live.

[Em]

And that's why we drink.