E431 Mr. Glitter Shoes and a Mystery Vortex

Summary

Podcast Summary: And That's Why We Drink – Episode E431: "Mr. Glitter Shoes and a Mystery Vortex"

Release Date: May 11, 2025
Hosts: Christine Schiefer & Em Schulz
Description: Murder and the paranormal collide in this chilling episode. Pour yourself a drink and join Christine and Em as they delve into terrifying true crime stories intertwined with supernatural elements, highlighting the world's inherent fears and mysteries.

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1. Opening and Sponsored Segments (00:00 – 05:12)

The episode kicks off with the hosts engaging in lighthearted banter while promoting their sponsors. Em introduces Zip Intro by ZipRecruiter as a "speed dating" feature for hiring, emphasizing its efficiency:

Em (00:14): "Zip Intro gives you the power to quickly assess excellent candidates for your job via back-to-back video calls."

Christine and Em also briefly discuss Volvo's new XC90 and Hungry Root's subscription service, each segment seamlessly blending advertisements with their natural conversational style.

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2. Personal Anecdotes and Tattoo Synchronicity (05:12 – 07:26)

Transitioning from sponsorships, the hosts share personal stories about coincidences and planned synchronicities. Christine reveals her spontaneous decision to get a tattoo in Vegas, influenced by a series of uncanny events:

Christine (05:51): "I fell into a tattoo appointment in Vegas. It was just... unplanned."

Em responds with enthusiasm, suggesting playful ideas for the tattoo placement and design, showcasing their camaraderie and humorous dynamic.

---

3. Deep Dive into the "Green Ribbon" Urban Legend (07:26 – 48:09)

a. Introduction to the Legend (07:26 – 24:14)

The main segment of the episode focuses on the urban legend of the "Green Ribbon," a story that has haunted listeners since childhood. Christine and Em recount the tale, highlighting its evolution over time:

Em (17:57): "For everyone who's still fucked up over that story about the girl with the ribbon around her neck."

They explore various renditions of the story, tracing its origins back to the French Revolution and its transformation through different cultural lenses, including feminist interpretations that emphasize consent and bodily autonomy.

b. Historical Context and Evolution (24:14 – 36:56)

Christine and Em provide a comprehensive history of the "Green Ribbon" story, detailing its first appearances in literature and its persistence through generations. They discuss how societal changes, particularly the feminist movement of the 1970s, influenced newer versions of the story to incorporate themes of consent:

Em (43:45): "She compares the green ribbon to a husband stitch... it's a symbol of male ownership over women's bodies."

c. Cultural Impact and Modern Interpretations (36:56 – 48:09)

The conversation delves into modern analyses of the legend, discussing its psychological impact on listeners and its place in horror storytelling. They highlight how the story serves as a gateway to more complex horror narratives and its enduring presence in collective memory:

Christine (46:08): "It unlocks a lot... it's a gateway to the scary stuff."

They conclude this segment by reflecting on the story's lasting fear factor, emphasizing its simplicity yet profound impact.

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4. Case Study: Chanel Lockwood – A Missing and Murdered Indigenous Person (48:09 – 93:11)

a. Introduction to Chanel Lockwood (48:09 – 55:38)

Christine introduces Chanel Lockwood, also known as Pretty, a young Yupik woman from St. Michael, Alaska. The narrative outlines Chanel's life, her close-knit community, and the tragic circumstances surrounding her disappearance:

Christine (52:32): "Chanel was the third of nine siblings, five daughters and four sons. She grew up in St. Michael, Alaska..."

She narrates the day Chanel went missing, highlighting the immediate confusion and community response:

Em (70:06): "Nobody's coming all the way to the top. It's just bad news."

b. Investigation Challenges and Systemic Issues (55:38 – 84:34)

The hosts discuss the systemic failures in law enforcement that hinder justice for Chanel and other Indigenous victims. They shed light on the inadequacies of Village Police Officers (VPOs) in Alaska, including issues of misconduct and insufficient resources:

Christine (70:43): "Many rural communities in Alaska have no full-time law enforcement services, or their officers lack the training or qualifications to keep the community safe."

Em emphasizes the frustration and despair felt by Chanel's family due to the lack of proper investigative measures and closure:

Em (76:42): "I don't believe it."

They highlight alarming statistics about the Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls (MMIWG) crisis, stressing the systemic neglect and underreporting:

Christine (84:17): "Violence against Indigenous people is underreported, and once it's reported, it's usually ignored."

c. Personal Impact and Community Trauma (84:34 – 93:11)

The narrative delves into the profound trauma experienced by Chanel's family and community. Personal stories reveal the intergenerational impact of violence and systemic failure:

Em (90:01): "Teenagers and young women just... it's just horrifying."

Christine and Em discuss the cultural significance of the Yupik community's interconnectedness with nature and how external violence disrupts this harmony.

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5. Addressing the MMIWG Crisis and Resources (93:11 – 94:42)

In the concluding sections, the hosts address the broader Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls (MMIWG) crisis, providing listeners with actionable resources and ways to support the movement:

Christine (94:09): "There’s an article called Six Ways to Be Active in the MMIW Movement..."

They emphasize the importance of awareness and continuous support beyond May, encouraging listeners to engage with provided resources and participate in advocacy efforts.

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6. Closing Remarks and Teasers for Future Episodes (94:42 – End)

The episode wraps up with Christine and Em teasing upcoming content related to MMIW and other true crime stories. They maintain their signature blend of humor and seriousness, ensuring listeners remain engaged and informed:

Em (94:35): "Maybe I'll do, like, a series of urban legends..."

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Em (00:14): "Zip Intro gives you the power to quickly assess excellent candidates for your job via back-to-back video calls."

• Christine (05:51): "I fell into a tattoo appointment in Vegas. It was just... unplanned."

• Em (17:57): "For everyone who's still fucked up over that story about the girl with the ribbon around her neck."

• Christine (52:32): "Chanel was the third of nine siblings, five daughters and four sons. She grew up in St. Michael, Alaska..."

• Em (43:45): "She compares the green ribbon to a husband stitch... it's a symbol of male ownership over women's bodies."

• Christine (84:17): "Violence against Indigenous people is underreported, and once it's reported, it's usually ignored."

• Em (90:01): "Teenagers and young women just... it's just horrifying."

---

Conclusion

Episode E431 of "And That's Why We Drink" masterfully intertwines personal stories, urban legends, and a poignant true crime case to shed light on the MMIWG crisis. Through engaging dialogue and thorough exploration, Christine and Em not only entertain but also educate their listeners on critical societal issues, emphasizing the need for awareness and action.

For more information on supporting the MMIWG movement and resources to help, visit the show’s website or check the show notes for direct links.

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Tune in every Sunday as Christine and Em continue to explore the darkest corners of true crime and the paranormal, all while sharing some laughs and sipping their favorite beverages. Remember, the world's a scary place, and that's why we drink!

Transcript

[Christine]

You know what speed dating is, right? You've done that.

[Em]

I have.

[Christine]

I have not. But I'm sure you're the only millennial who has. And if you're the owner of a growing business, what if there was a feature like speed dating, except for hiring somebody? Isn't that interesting?

[Em]

I would do it 100%.

[Christine]

Well, good news there is. It's Zip Intro from ZipRecruiter. You can post your job today and start talking to qualified candidates tomorrow. And right now you can try Zip Intro for [e-mail] Drink.

[Em]

Yeah. Zip Intro gives you the power to quickly assess excellent candidates for your job via back to back video calls. We kind of, before this feature came out, we actually did do this at the local coffee shop and just hang.

[Christine]

Up on people in person. Yeah. And be like, goodbye. Next. But no, it's, you know, the awkwardest one. There was somebody next to us, remember, who was also interviewing and it was not Eva, the last person. But they, you know, they just had to go up against Eva. There was no winning, you know.

[Em]

Yeah. They came in right after Eva and they definitely heard us saying before their interview that we don't need to look any further.

[Christine]

She's the one. We said.

[Em]

Enjoy the benefits of speed hiring with new Zip Intro only from ZipRecruiter, rated number one hiring site based on G2.

[Christine]

Try Zip Intro for free at ZipRecruiter.com Drink again, that's ZipRecruiter.com Drink Zip Intro. Post Jobs today. Talk to qualified candidates tomorrow.

[Em]

Introducing the new Volvo XC90 with seven seat versatility, Google built in and advanced safety features for all your precious cargo. The new Volvo XC90 designed for life. Visit volvocars.com us to learn more. Well, welcome everyone to. Is it technically 4:30 or. Because we did a live episode last week. Was that 4:30?

[Christine]

I thought you meant the time.

[Em]

Oh, whoopsies.

[Christine]

No, it's 4:31. It's not 4:31pm it's episode 4:31.

[Em]

Well, happy. Four minus three equals one, everybody. I hope that you're having a lovely day. Driving or cleaning or eating or planning a fun trip or hanging out with your friend. What else would they be doing?

[Christine]

Petting a cat?

[Em]

Bedrotting. Yeah, I hope this is. I hope you're having a nice break from TikTok. How's your day? Christine, what are you doing?

[Christine]

Oh, imagine that we put this on tick tock and then we're like, caught you in the act.

[Em]

Well, now that's the clip.

[Christine]

It's not real life.

[Em]

We see you. Don't swipe. Don't swipe. Don't swipe. We're right here.

[Christine]

What is the matter with you?

[Em]

Are you having fun?

[Christine]

I'm trying to bully you right now. Okay.

[Em]

Go watch our episode. Get off tick tock. Get off tick tock right now.

[Christine]

Go pet a cat and hang out with your friend.

[Em]

Go watch this. You're going to have fun.

[Christine]

So. Hi, Em. What did you ask me? I already lost the plot.

[Em]

How are you?

[Christine]

Oh, thank you. I'm doing well. I am drinking iced coffee out of my bisexual pride cup.

[Em]

Love that.

[Christine]

What are you up to?

[Em]

I actually just washed my bisexual cup. I don't have a bisexual. The cup is as bisexual as I get. But I got it recently at. When we were in Houston. I went to Buc EE's obviously, and I bought myself a little summery Buc EE's cup, but it was bisexual. Colors made me think of you. Oh, I love it. What I forgot to tell you. Tell me at that Houston Buc ee's by the way, has the world's largest, world's longest car wash. Did you go through it? I did. Avis can thank me. Their rental car came back squeaky clean.

[Christine]

Deeply insane. That's so funny.

[Em]

A laser light show in it, my friend.

[Christine]

Come on, like.

[Em]

And then I.

[Christine]

So people just go in there with their rental cars to wash them off for the light show. That's hilarious.

[Em]

I wonder if there is a higher number of clean cars that get returned to rental cars in Houston area.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

And they're like, oh, they must have gone through Bucky's.

[Christine]

You know, kind of a smart setup there you got going. Yeah.

[Em]

Anyway, that was my fun way to drink.

[Christine]

Thank you so much. You're working really hard. Do you. Do you have a reason that you drink?

[Em]

I have this crazy cough that won't go away. It is.

[Christine]

I haven't heard it yet today, have I? Or maybe I've just become immune to the sound.

[Em]

You've become immune? It's insane.

[Christine]

I also have a three year old. So I think coughing it just like unfortunately has become part of just the general white noise of my life.

[Em]

It's becoming like a thing where I think I need to go to a doctor because it's almost a week long and it's. I've had a week long headache from coughing so much that my head hurts.

[Christine]

Oh, no, don't get pneumonia. That's what I'm thinking here. There you go. Getting pneumonia. Thanks a lot.

[Em]

I don't Know where it came from. I'm not sick. I wasn't sick. It's just. I just woke up one day, and now I just have, like, a terrible cough. So it's fun for everybody. I'm really actually nervous about our live show where I'm just gonna cough through it in Vegas. I don't know. So sorry.

[Christine]

Weird time. No, it'll be good. It'll be good.

[Em]

That's, I guess, one of the reasons why I drink. I've got plenty that. We'll stick with that one.

[Christine]

That's a good one. We'll save the rest for next week. I guess I drink because I'm getting. Okay. There's just been a lot of weird things that have happened, synchronicity wise. But what I'll add what I'll just say now. And. Oh, how about in the yap ya. Or I tell all the synchronicities that led to this, because it's actually a bonker story. I, like, wrote it down because I was like, this is. No one's gonna believe me. I'm getting a tattoo in Vegas. I'm getting a little hot stuff. And it wasn't even planned it. Just the other day, again, a lot of weird things happened, and I just fell into a tattoo appointment in Vegas. It was just.

[Em]

What kind of synchronicities led you to getting little hot stuff tattooed on you?

[Christine]

What's going on? I know. That's why I'm saying it's got to be a yap yard, because it's way. I don't want to, like, drag this on forever, but, man, it's quite a story.

[Em]

Is this another you and Eva going to get tattoos together, or is this, like, you just. It just happened.

[Christine]

Totally happened.

[Em]

Do you know what position he'll be in on your.

[Christine]

I think I'm gonna put him on my. Like, where my body or like, where.

[Em]

Like, him and you.

[Christine]

Thank you for asking. You get it. So I think I'm gonna put him here. Well, at first I thought, I want to put little hot stuffed devil on my shoulder, right? Because, like, you know, devil on your shoulder. But then I was like, but I want people to see him, and I want to see him, and then I'll never see him. So I was like, I think I'm gonna put him on my arm next to my moth man next to my moth. And he's. I haven't decided if he's going to be kind of. There's this one pose I have of him kind of standing very, like, cheeky, and I Think I'm gonna have with a broken or crooked halo over his head and then holding a flaming pencil. And so either the one where he's standing there or the one where he's like doing the sleepover, like, you know, writing with a pencil.

[Em]

So I'm surprised you don't get him, like on your shoulder right here so you can see him.

[Christine]

Well, that's actually a cute idea. I think I'm too chicken to do that.

[Em]

Oh, really? That would be so fun. Everyone would go, oh, my God, you got a little double on your shoulder.

[Christine]

I actually. Hang on. That's it. I think. Yeah, I'll put it here.

[Em]

You're welcome.

[Christine]

Thanks.

[Em]

He's such a cutie pie.

[Christine]

He is. And I. I gotta say, I finally read the whole comic. This is the first one, by the way. It was like a reissue in the 90s, but this is the first. The OG yeah. And because look at the back. Look how 90s.

[Em]

What's the story? Own home. What's the story in there?

[Christine]

There are several. But my favorite one is that, well, first of all, he has a grandpa named Blaze, which is really wild. And Grandpa Blaze also wears a diaper. And so Blaze loved that. And then my favorite story is where he has an aunt Clinker. Is that her name?

[Em]

You know, I was on board with Blaze because that made sense. Clinker is crazy.

[Christine]

Yeah. So, I mean, he's just so cute. Look at him. And he's always just trying to like build a cool fort or like make friends with a snowman, but he just accidentally melts him or he actually catches his cave on fire. It's just all very sweet.

[Em]

So are you going to get, like, stylized wise? It going to be like a. Like that version of them?

[Christine]

The vintage look, I think. Oh, this is my favorite. Here it is. It's called. It doesn't suit me. And Aunt Clinker says Aunt Mushy is coming today.

[Em]

Great.

[Christine]

I can't imagine the artist had two of these animals.

[Em]

The women have crazy names, right?

[Christine]

Like, what's going on?

[Em]

Clinker and Mushy. Sounds like they went to prison together.

[Christine]

Oh, there's also an incredible amount of cigars in all of these comics. I'm like, amazed that cigars were having quite a heyday. Even the children's population at the time. No. So Aunt Mushy comes with a present. And it's this little sailor outfit. And he puts it on and he's like, I don't like it. And they make him wear it. It's very relatable you know, probably to you. And then he's like, what a crummy outfit. I'll play sailor. All right. And then he just, like, ruins it. He fights some sharks and ruins his outfit. And then she's like, don't worry, I brought another one. And then puts him in another little outfit. And then at the end, he's like, no. What you don't understand is I just really like the way that he actually says, I'm gonna quote, I only like to wear this fireproof asbestos diaper.

[Em]

Cutie pie.

[Christine]

Yeah, he has an asbestos diaper, guys. So.

[Em]

Yeah, but he's a little double. He's allowed to wear whatever he wants.

[Christine]

That's right. And they say. She goes, oh, well, you should have said, so I made you this beautiful flower patterned asbestos diaper. And he says, how do I get out of this one? It's just so silly. It's like a mushy. Everyone's got an aunt mushy. You know what I mean?

[Em]

Yeah, I don't know. There was. But there's something in your voice when you just feel like, I don't want to wear it. It made me think of. We just. We just took Hank to the vet and there's.

[Christine]

Yeah, he's sick too.

[Em]

He's had an upset tummy for a little bit, and so we're having to switch his diet. But he. His vet, by the way, is like a very openly proud gay man who wears glitter shoes.

[Christine]

Oh, cool.

[Em]

And so when we were sitting in.

[Christine]

The vet, the cats like that.

[Em]

Maybe I liked it. I guess I'm a cat.

[Christine]

Meow. You're on the ground with the cat.

[Em]

But we were. We were waiting in, like, one of the waiting rooms, and we were. Wait. We didn't know his. We didn't know his name. We didn't catch his actual name. So we kept calling him Mr. Glitter.

[Christine]

Shoes and Dr. Glitter Shoes to you.

[Em]

Well, it became a thing where we were trying to make voices as if we were Hank, because he was. He's terrified of the vet. He's terrified of anything outside of this house. And so it became this, like, line that we now keep repeating non stop in our house. Together. Together. But we were talking as if we were Hank, and we just kept going, Miss a GW Shoes. I frued up. I fro up.

[Christine]

So that's because I don't want to throw up. I know that's sad because, you know, that is. I literally. Leona one time threw up, and she said I didn't like throwing up. And I was like, oh, honey, no, I know.

[Em]

No one likes it. No one likes it.

[Christine]

That's how Hank sounds for sure. I don't doubt it for a second.

[Em]

I throw it up anytime we have we. Allison's not in the room and she comes in, I go miss a shoes. I ate my dinner. So anyway, if you hear me for some reason, if that slips out in the future, just know that there was a reference point to that. But that's. That's the update is that he's sick and he had doggy pink eye recently. He's just all over the place.

[Christine]

Catch a little break.

[Em]

He's on the men now. We're fine.

[Christine]

Jinx. Can I say one more thing real quick before.

[Em]

Yeah, yeah.

[Christine]

So, big important announcement. May is actually Missing and Murdered Indigenous People awareness month, specifically May 5th. And I say Indigenous People Awareness Month, specifically May 5th. Many people were read. We missed May 5th already because I was supposed to record. We were supposed to record that for that episode and then didn't work out. All sorts of stuff happened. So we released a live episode. But just to add, we're still in the month of May, so it's still very, very timely. People wear red on May 5 to raise awareness for missing and murdered Indigenous women, girls, and two spirit people. It's often known as Red Dress Day, typically celebrated in the US And Canada. It's a symbolic gesture to honor the missing and murdered, especially, you know, considering how high the ratio is compared to, you know, the rest of the population of violence. And I'm going to give you some more info on that at the end of my story later on today. But I wanted to point that out up top just so everybody kind of is aware that that's what's happening this month. And it's important to keep at the top of our minds and draw attention to what.

[Em]

Can you. Can you repeat the whole title of the appreciation month? It's a lot of words.

[Christine]

Yes, it is a lot of words. I'm gonna. So that is the. That is what nativehope.org calls it. According to YWCA Spokane, they call it missing and murdered Indigenous women and people. So I think there are other. You know, there are a lot of ways to say it, but basically the idea is to remember and honor, especially because these stories really don't get told enough. Not near enough, 100%. So that's what we're gonna get into later. But for now, I would like to hear a story from you, Emethy.

[Em]

Well, let me cough. I'm hungry. What to do what to do? Just kidding. I know. It's Hungry Root. Yay. We just got our Hungry Root sent to us yesterday. It's Allison's favorite part of the week. She gets weirdly giddy.

[Christine]

No, but it's thrilling. Like, it's thrilling.

[Em]

It's nice to have a box of food that you know you're gonna like.

[Christine]

And it's like surprising. It's like, oh, it's all. It's different and they customize it just for you. It feels so special.

[Em]

I love a custom experience. Especially again when it's food and it's arriving to my door. You know, I hate inconvenience. It's just, it saves me so many ways. Hungry Root is like having your own personal shopper. And they handle the weekly grocery shopping for you and recommend healthy groceries based on your taste, nutrition preferences and health goals. And all you have to do is share your preferences and goals and Hungry Root fills your cart with personalized recommendations.

[Christine]

Yeah, it's really cool. Hungry Root makes shopping stress free, super convenient. They offer great options for the whole family. Smoothies, kid friendly snacks, which is a big deal. Sweets, ready to eat meal kits even or sorry, ready to eat meals, salad kits, even supplements.

[Em]

And the quality is top notch. There's no high fructose corn syrup or artificial sweeteners or preservatives. Plus their meat and seafood are sourced without hormones or antibiotics. So we love Hungryroot and you should take advantage of this exclusive offer for a limited time. Get 40% off your first box. Plus get a free item in every box for life. Go to hungryroot.com drink and use code drink.

[Christine]

That's hungryroot.com drink code drink to get 40% off your first box and a free item of your Choice for Life. Hungryroot.com Drink Code Drink. If there's one thing I know about M, it's that they're always craving their next action packed adventure.

[Em]

That's the truth. That's the truth.

[Christine]

It's what we always say.

[Em]

Action packed. You know, I, I'm, I'm not action packed myself, but I like to be stimulated in the action packing.

[Christine]

That's right. And that is what Audible is here to do today for all of us. Yes, Audible delivers thrills of all kinds of every kind on your command from Electrifying Suspense. By the way, this morning my therapist on the way to work sent me a screenshot of the book she was listening to on Audible and I was like, thank you. I had already read it.

[Em]

I love that you're bonding that way.

[Christine]

I know. I was like, this is a kind of a fun way to, like, share anyway. You can unleash your adventure side with gripping titles that keep you guessing. You can also send them to your therapist if you want. Or your clients or if you're there.

[Em]

Yeah. If you're a therapist. Yeah. Yeah.

[Christine]

Or your clients. Maybe that's a better. I know.

[Em]

Maybe.

[Christine]

I don't know. It doesn't matter. Hotly anticipated new releases and must listen bestsellers that hook you from the first minute.

[Em]

Start listening and discover what's beyond the edge of your seat. New members can try Audible now for free for 30 days and dive into a new world of thrills. Visit audible.com drink or text drink to 500. 500. You're not gonna get a story. You're gonna get kind of my. One of my 100 ones that I do.

[Christine]

Okay. Because I almost said a ghost story, and then I went, I should be more vague. A story.

[Em]

You should be inclusive, you fucking inconsiderate bitch. Yeah.

[Christine]

What else is new? What else is new with me? You've always gotta. You've always gotta reign me in.

[Em]

You're just not w. You're just not woke.

[Christine]

You're. What are you, the PC police?

[Em]

Yeah. So I got recognized when I was in. Oh, my God. Where were we? Just Kansas City. No, where was the place before that? St. Louis. And I got recognized by a girl named Bobby. Love that.

[Christine]

Cute.

[Em]

And Bobby said, oh, I've wanted you to cover this for a long time. So, Bobby, this is for you.

[Christine]

Bobby's like, fuck you. I don't live in Kansas City.

[Em]

Yeah, Bobby's like. Actually, my name was Billy.

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Em]

So anyway, this is the Green Ribbon. You know about that, right?

[Christine]

I think, like, okay. Around the neck.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Yes.

[Em]

So which is interesting because it's not a ghost story, but I. I was Bobby humbly and gently reminded me that I'm also supposed to be. Supposed to be covering urban legends. So this does fall in.

[Christine]

It doesn't sound humble.

[Em]

It was. It was very kind, but I was like, you're right. I should just. I. Like, there are so many scary stories. We all grew up with and don't know the origins, so.

[Christine]

Yeah. Okay. Oh, I love it. So, like, the. The kind of nightmarish story and, like, where it comes from. Oh. Oh, this is fun.

[Em]

Okay, so the Green Ribbon, for those of you who remember maybe the first moment you felt horrified in your life, it was a children's book for us, or it was a children's story that a Lot of us read. I will tell you before anything else that as soon as I googled the green ribbon, one of the first articles came up was a buzzfeed article, and it was titled, for everyone who's still fucked up over that story about the girl with the ribbon around her neck.

[Christine]

See, it's like the most millennial, like, creepypasta that lives in our brains.

[Em]

It definitely was. It feels like it was just our era, but maybe it was also like the generation before us. It was like Gen X, I guess.

[Christine]

I think it's because it was featured in Scary Stories to Tell in the Dark. It got, like, very widespread in art. Like, that was a big book in my elementary school.

[Em]

Well, I will tell you, I don't. I don't know if I'm legally allowed to do this. I think I can. If I'm gonna give it credit, I'm gonna read the whole story to you right now.

[Christine]

Well, do you remember when we. When Covid first started, we did. We started reading scary, scary stories to tell in the dark.

[Em]

Oh, yeah.

[Christine]

But there's also.

[Em]

Don't know if that was legal. Whoopsies.

[Christine]

Don't know, don't care. Because we got away with it. Honestly, we probably didn't even do it right. Because I. I remember, like, that was pretty camera, like, we didn't know how to do. I remember screen recording you holding the book, and then I was trying to speak over. Like, it was insane. Now that there's zoom, it's like, what were we doing?

[Em]

The pandemic was a crazy time.

[Christine]

It really fast forwarded our live reading scary story situation. So I would love to hear it.

[Em]

Yeah. And it's so to the people who remember that story, it has lived with us for so long. I thought it must have been much longer than this, but it's like a paragraph. Not even.

[Christine]

Oh. So I know it was like a full chapter.

[Em]

Doesn't it feel like it was like, maybe. Because when we read it as children, it felt like 25 pages.

[Christine]

You know what? Probably.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Or was that kid in class who could. Who just, like, kept not saying the words.

[Em]

Oh, yeah. Drink popcorn. Yeah.

[Christine]

Yeah. Oh, my God.

[Em]

All right, so here is the green ribbon. Insert spooky music. Once there was a girl named Jenny. She was like all other girls, except for one thing. She always wore a green ribbon around her neck. There was a boy named Alfred in her class. Alfred liked Jenny, and Jenny liked Alfred. One day, he asked her, why do you wear that ribbon all the time? I cannot tell you, said Jenny. But Alfred kept Asking, why do you wear it? And Jenny would say, it's not important.

[Christine]

First of all, like, red flag.

[Em]

First of all. She fucking told you how she feels?

[Christine]

She just said, I don't want to do this. And so you just, like, you keep.

[Em]

Asking her, like, pushy fucking bastard. Yeah.

[Christine]

Like, listen to a boundary, okay? No means no.

[Em]

Like, respect her.

[Christine]

Seriously, it really irks me.

[Em]

Jenny and Alfred grew up and fell in love. Okay? So Jenny doesn't see any parts.

[Christine]

His persistence worked.

[Em]

This was clearly written by someone from.

[Christine]

The 40s who was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Em]

What they're not mentioning is Alfred is 35. No.

[Christine]

If someone pulls your hair really hard, it means they're in love with. That's a good thing.

[Em]

So, Jenny, Alfred grew up and fell in love. One day. One day they got married. And after their wedding, Alfred said, now that we are married, you must tell me about the green ribbon.

[Christine]

That's a long con to get you to marry me. Just to take and finally figure this out.

[Em]

Talk about, like a shut up ring or whatever they're called. It's like, I'll just let you know about the ribbon once we're married.

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Em]

Finally, Jenny, who's into edging, I guess, said, you must still wait.

[Christine]

Oh, God, no. He's into edging. He's the sitting there like, I'll marry you.

[Em]

They're both having a moment here. Yeah. So Jenny says, you still must wait. I will tell you when the right time comes. Years past, Alfred and Jenny grow old. One day, Jenny becomes very sick. The doctor told her she was dying. Jenny called Alfred to her side. Alfred, she said, now I can tell you about the green ribbon. Untie it. And you will see why I could not tell you before. Slowly and carefully, Alfred untied the ribbon and Jenny's head fell off. Which, like, that's the strongest. What was it like, gorilla glue? Also, how. You know that ribbon got on the end?

[Christine]

Yeah, the end. Okay.

[Em]

You know that ribbon, like, at least once the bow got undone and he was like, ah, this is the moment. And cheezy part.

[Christine]

Tie it right back up. Yeah. What the f. And also, like, why did that fuck us up so much? It doesn't seem scary to me now. I mean, I'm 33, but I. Like, it was scarier back then.

[Em]

I. Yeah, I remember. I think it was the. It was the first time we ever experienced, like, a shock value of like, oh, her head fell off. I thought we were going to.

[Christine]

Good point.

[Em]

I thought it was already.

[Christine]

That she was dying. Of old age. We were probably already like, she's dying. And then it's like, oh, her head fell off.

[Em]

Her head fell off. And then, cuz it makes you wonder, like, so she's had the secret her whole life and.

[Christine]

Yeah. Oh, yeah, it's kind of sinister. I hope he's happy.

[Em]

Like, does it mean she also. What do you mean she's dying now? I'm pretty sure. Beheaded. She was already dying.

[Christine]

I think that the doctor was like, oh, can't figure it out. And it's like, maybe it's because her head's not attached.

[Em]

I like how the doctor also never said, can you take that ribbon off? Like, can you please?

[Christine]

What's that giant wound coming out from under your.

[Em]

The doctor had to have gotten fired from the board when they realized that she's been dead and he was talking to a zombie and didn't know.

[Christine]

It was literally just trying to. Yeah. Diagnose her with something. It's like, okay, all right. Well, I'm fascinated about this. So this comes from something like. I didn't realize that. I thought. I just assumed it was sort of like invented by whoever made this compendium of stories.

[Em]

So interestingly, you already fell for their first trick, Cristine, because you said, oh, it obviously comes from the scary stories to tell in the dark.

[Christine]

I did, I did.

[Em]

Whoopsies, you're wrong. It comes from the same author, which is why I think a lot of people get confused.

[Christine]

Oh, so it's not even in that book. Oh, okay, okay. Oh, I see.

[Em]

It comes from the author, Alvin Schwartz. This version, I'll say, of the Green Ribbon comes from Alvin Schwartz, who did write scary stories to tell in the Dark. But because of that, a lot of people think the green ribbon is in that book when really it's in a different book he wrote called In a Dark, Dark Room and Other Stories. So Other Stories and scary stories probably sound the same.

[Christine]

Yeah, In a Dark, dark Room. I remember that one too, though.

[Em]

So that book was. That book was from 84.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Em]

So this story has existed since 1984. It was part of the I Can Read book series.

[Christine]

Congrats. Here's some trauma.

[Em]

Yeah. Oh, you can read. Here's your first fucking sentence. Now you'll never want to read again. So fun fact about the I Can Read book series, because I obviously had to look that up.

[Christine]

Yeah, I love these guys.

[Em]

Today There are over 500 titles, including Amelia Bedelia, my favorite, and your favorite, frog and toad. And do you know what? Their very first book that they Put out was. It's another. No, but it's another one of our favorites, Little Bear.

[Christine]

Oh, God, they're all killing me. Oh, it's so good.

[Em]

So it's been around since 1957, and Little Bear was the first one.

[Christine]

There's something about parenting that's great when you can just be like. When Liana's like, what's that? And I'm like, that's Little Bear. And, yeah, we're gonna watch it together. It's just like, so, you know, when I'm satisfying.

[Em]

One of the things I've been trying to do more on this tour, when I've been traveling and going around stuff, I've been trying to go to, if not botanical gardens, I've been trying to go to, like, the big park in the area of each place. And every time I've gone to a city's park, I play a Little Bear playlist on Spotify. So it feels like I'm wandering through the woods. Isn't that precious? I don't regret it at all.

[Christine]

Like, that the cat's gonna come out from a log, and then the goose.

[Em]

Oh, my God, Duck's gonna come with her anxiety out of here.

[Christine]

You're so frenetic.

[Em]

Anyway, highly recommend. Also, I listen to a Shire playlist, so it feels like I'm a hobbit traveling across the land.

[Christine]

Yeah, good, too.

[Em]

Okay, so another fun fact about this. These I can read books. For those who don't know, these books are sold as series, and they come in different levels based on a kid's ability to read. And it starts with, like, just learning vowels all the way to, like, you can read advanced books on your own. So in a dark, dark room is level two.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Em]

Which is the first level where kids can read on their own.

[Christine]

Right. So it really is like, the first trauma. It's like, oh, here's a bad experience. Okay, got it. I mean, I guess it's a good experience. We're still harping on it. It couldn't have been that bad.

[Em]

It's literally when the kid is like, I can finally read. Give me a book all by myself. And then five minutes later, they're like, I don't want this anymore.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

So this version of the Green Ribbon was not the first rendition of the story. But fun fact. It was the first time in any of the stories where the girl's ribbon is green.

[Christine]

Oh, so that was the change.

[Em]

That's the change. This urban legend goes all the way back, at least written down into the 1800s, but it's thought orally. This goes back to the French Revolution.

[Christine]

Oh, shit. Okay. I really thought we were gonna start at the 80s. I did not realize it actually went back that far.

[Em]

No. Because guess what was going on during the French Revolution? People were dying by the guillotine.

[Christine]

Duh.

[Em]

Not. No pun intended. This actually bled into. Bled into fashion at the time. The fact that the guillotine was so big, that's insane. Because there were private parties. This was a deep dive I loved going through. Yeah. During the French Revolution, there were these private, secret, almost like speakeasy parties called ball de victim, Bal de victim, or Victim's ball.

[Christine]

Whoa.

[Em]

And during these balls, they were held during and after the revolution. And you had to be. You could only be invited if you had lost someone to a guillotine.

[Christine]

Oh, geez.

[Em]

So it was a way that everyone could get together and grieve. Oh, wow. But people would dance and celebrate the lives of the people who died. But they would wear mourning clothes in honor of those who were executed. They would also dress the part and started mimicking what the victims of the guillotine would look like. So it became very popular for women to cut their hair short because that was one of the last things they would do for women before they got executed.

[Christine]

So women that's like, speaks to, like, human coping mechanisms and stuff too, you know, like, wow.

[Em]

It's like reclaiming the short hair of like. Yeah, eventually. So I think it started as like, if you're related or if you've lost someone, so you're going to. They were the victims and now you're honoring them. Eventually they became known more as, like, survivor's balls, where, like, even after the revolution, it's like we were rebels who somehow escaped the guillotine.

[Christine]

We survived it, right?

[Em]

Yeah. So then in that way, they were reclaiming the short hair for the people who lost their lives.

[Christine]

That makes sense. That makes sense.

[Em]

So women were cutting their hair short because that's what would happen right before you women were sent to the guillotine. They also, at these parties, would dance in sharp jerky motions, like. Oh, I know. They also began wearing red ribbons around their neck to represent the blade.

[Christine]

Red, wow. See the red? Okay. So he's like, I'm gonna take some artistic liberty and make it not blood colored.

[Em]

And fun fact. This is the beginning of chokers.

[Christine]

Okay. I was gonna say that must also be why millennials are into that, because I love to wear a choker.

[Em]

Yeah. They came from people being guillotined. So I remember that.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

Sensitive, inconsiderate or whatever I said.

[Christine]

You already called me that. So it's like, at this point, how much lower can I get?

[Em]

You know, excuse my watery eyes. It's absolutely talking about chokers, not the coughing. Okay.

[Christine]

It's calling me names. It just doesn't sit right with you.

[Em]

I felt icky. Yeah. Okay, so that's. Those are victims balls again. Later, they became known as survivor's balls after the revolution, and people were still honoring those that passed, I think. Let me see. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So that's where we think the green Ribbon story has its original roots. Although the first time we see it ever written anywhere was 1824, where there was a different compendium of stories by Washington Irving. And if that sounds familiar, he's the guy who wrote Sleepy Hollow.

[Christine]

Do you know that when you started the story, I was about to say, this gives me Sleepy Hollow vibes, And then I didn't. But I guess, of course, with the headless like. Of course. That makes total sense.

[Em]

Yeah. So he actually wrote Sleepy Hollow only a few years before. So then he became popular. So I think his version of the story is interesting. It took off. His version of the story was actually just called the Adventure of the German Student. Look out, Christine.

[Christine]

Wait a minute.

[Em]

And in it, a man named Gottfried. Wolfgang.

[Christine]

Okay, sure. Yep. That sounds German to me.

[Em]

Visits France during the revolution. I feel like that's not the time to go.

[Christine]

He got a really cheap ticket, though. They were like five bucks extra. Extra sale.

[Em]

While he's there, he meets this pale woman dressed in black. And they were. They met by the guillotine that would later be used the next day or had been used throughout the week. I guess they were both just standing there and looking at the guillotine. He meets this girl. Fun fact. She had a, quote, black band around her neck, clasped by diamonds.

[Christine]

Oh, beautiful. I know.

[Em]

She has diamonds.

[Christine]

That's fancy.

[Em]

Okay, so they go back to his place. They hook up. Oh, wow. The story is, like, so, like, tropey lesbian. Because they fall in love that night and decide they're gonna move in together.

[Christine]

Well, probably because they want to have sex. So they're probably like, now we have to get married today.

[Em]

Oh, yeah. Because they're dirty. Oh, yeah. Yeah. They're living in sin.

[Christine]

They're like, well, if we're gonna get pregnant right now, we better get. We better get a house.

[Em]

We have nine months.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

So they hook up. He. They fall in love, or at least say they're going to get married and move in together. So he literally goes apartment hunting the next day. Gay.

[Christine]

Also, like, he's on vacation.

[Em]

I know. You don't even live here.

[Christine]

What are you doing? You don't even live here, dude.

[Em]

So when he comes back, though, to tell her, like, I got a place. She's dead. Whoopsies. Big day for him.

[Christine]

Did they need a doctor to tell her that, or did she just tell.

[Em]

Her, well, let's see how you handle this. The cops are the ones who tell him. Fun fact. We just.

[Christine]

Fun fact.

[Em]

We looked into who she is. She was executed yesterday by the guillotine. And so, of course, the day that he met her, she had died earlier that day.

[Christine]

That's so twisted, too, because it's like, now the cops think you were sleeping with a corpse.

[Em]

Hold on to that thought.

[Christine]

Oh, I don't want to. I don't want to.

[Em]

When the police took her ribbon off, because they're like, oh, there's that. They were like, give me those diamonds. Her head rolls across the floor. Her head rolls across the floor. And so that's another version of the story.

[Christine]

Okay, so he's probably like, I didn't. I don't believe it. And then they pulled the ribbon. Okay, I see.

[Em]

Yeah, that's actually. I like how he was probably think of, okay, Imagine you hook up with someone today, and then you come back and see them again. They're dead. You call the cops, and then all of a sudden, they've been beheaded, and they were tied together by this tiny little band. And somehow you don't go to prison as the prime.

[Christine]

That's what I. That's what's wild to me about it. Like, it feels like the makings of, like, a Netflix crime drama, you know, like a twisty turny crime drama. But. Wow. Okay. All right, I'm in.

[Em]

So that was Sleepy Hollow, Washington Irving's version of this.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Em]

He heard it from a guy who heard it from a guy. So he. He doesn't even claim that he created this. He just. He's the one who wrote it down. He's like, I've been hearing. And it had never been written down before. So I think he was like, apparently the story goes back forever and ever and ever. I've heard it from a guy. I heard it from a guy. I'm just gonna write it down and publish it and be the one that everyone. Since I've got my Sleepy Hollow fame. Everyone will hear this, right?

[Christine]

They'll get some credit. Yep.

[Em]

So one of the guys he heard it from, his name's Horace and Horace wrote a very similar story and published it later. So there's confusion sometimes between, like, who came first, but Horace technically knew the story first, but he wrote about it and published it.

[Christine]

After watching it, I feel bad.

[Em]

Yeah. It's like, so that fucking guy got all the credit and no one even remembers my version.

[Christine]

I told him that story. I said it better, probably.

[Em]

Well, to go back to your point. Horace. His name was Horace. He was like, oh, well, he never confirmed this, but there's. It's heavily thought that he got inspiration to write it from a pamphlet from the 1600s about necrophilia.

[Christine]

Oh, my God. Why did I have to, like, align with horse psychically? I don't like that.

[Em]

Apparently in that pamphlet, there was a cautionary tale about the devil tricking someone into sleeping with a dead body.

[Christine]

That feels like a hot stuff. Exclusive comic book strip from the 40s or 60s or whatever.

[Em]

It certainly sounds of from a different era.

[Christine]

Like, all those cigars. Yeah, all those cigar. Ooh, woof. Okay.

[Em]

So he. The thought is he got this story from that pamphlet, which. The pamphlet, if it's from the 1600s, it's older than the French Revolution, so.

[Christine]

Oh, wow.

[Em]

I don't even know where his inspiration comes from.

[Christine]

What's real anymore.

[Em]

I don't even know. We live in a vortex of mystery. So things for you, anyway.

[Christine]

It's beautiful.

[Em]

M. Thank you. The. The main thing is that people heard it most from Washington Irving, who also came up with the loudest. Yes. So after the 1820s, now there's multiple versions written out. Another one comes out in the 1840s by a guy named Alexander. He wrote the Woman with the Velvet Necklace. So now we've had red, we've had black, We've had black with diamonds, We've had velvet. There's a little puppy dog looking out the window right now, by the way.

[Christine]

Oh, my.

[Em]

He wants to come back inside, and he doesn't get to.

[Christine]

Outside. Oh. Oh, he's outside. I thought he was inside. That's even funnier.

[Em]

No, Allison is. I was like, you have to leave for several hours. Figure it out.

[Christine]

You must get it out.

[Em]

So. So Anyway, by the 1850s, there's already multiple versions written down. And so I imagine it's already in the zeitgeist that people have heard the story.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

So that's by the 1850s, and more versions keep coming out after that. My Personal favorite is 1924, which. It's from a. The writer's name is Gaston Leroux. He also wrote the Phantom of the Opera.

[Christine]

Ooh. Okay. Christine, famously.

[Em]

And here's his version, is that a mayor throws a French Revolution party, which I'm imagining is one of these victim balls.

[Christine]

Feels like it's.

[Em]

Well, it's like. I think it's like a. It's. The theme is victim ball. I think they're mimicking the old victim balls.

[Christine]

Right. Okay, gotcha.

[Em]

And this mayor has this party because he wants to show off his refurbished revolution era guillotine.

[Christine]

So it's like when somebody gets a new thing and they're like a new grill and they're like, we gotta have a party. Shall we?

[Em]

Exactly. Except like ultra wealthy.

[Christine]

Yeah, right, sure. It's a new yacht. It's a new guillotine.

[Em]

It's very. Let them cake. Yeah.

[Christine]

So big time.

[Em]

He apparently. So this. In this version, the mayor has this party, wants to show off his guillotine surprise to everybody. He had found out recently that his wife was cheating on him. And he decides, I'm gonna do a demonstration of this guillotine. And he told his wife that it wouldn't. Wouldn't hurt her, even though it's a brand new renovated revolutionary guillotine.

[Christine]

Put your head right here.

[Em]

Puts her head in there, trusts him, and slices her up.

[Christine]

Oh, my God. In front of a party, people. This is very Edgar Allan Poe, you know, like this kind of like morbid again.

[Em]

How do you not go to jail as at least the prime suspect, you know? At least.

[Christine]

Yeah, I mean, I guess you have to be an urban legend, otherwise you're probably in jail. I guess if you're the mayor, maybe you get some sway, though.

[Em]

That's true. Although I'm forgetting this is literally a story that gassed on the road.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

So, okay, so that's just my personal favorite in the 1920s. But fast forward to the 70s, right before our version was written. In the 1970s, there are still more versions of this coming out. But now, because of the way society moves and ebbs and flows, the story is also changing. And now there's a lens of. Back in the 70s, there was one of the first big. One of the first big waves of feminism.

[Christine]

I see.

[Em]

And so the story changed with that as the new cultural lens and the story began to focus on women's consent, which is what we were complaining about when we read the story. So it worked that we were raised on these versions of the stories and.

[Christine]

Now as adults, up on it. Yeah.

[Em]

We're like, what about bodily autonomy? Bitch.

[Christine]

Yeah. Why does he pestering her?

[Em]

So, yeah, a lot of the versions of these stories started to come out where basically she was saying, don't touch the ribbon, and the man was weirdly pushy about it. But before that, the stories were all.

[Christine]

Like, better because it's like, oh, now you really want to know. Here you go. It's not like. It's like.

[Em]

It's like you're learning a lesson.

[Christine]

Yeah, exactly.

[Em]

Which from a storytelling point of view, like, it is nicer that there's a moral to the story versus, like, oh, they hooked up. And like, it feels like back then it was like almost like a bar joke that you would. Yeah, I hooked up with this girl and then her head fell off.

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. This feels more like a. Like a.

[Em]

Like a don't you dare. Or else like a more.

[Christine]

More a moral to the story type thing.

[Em]

Yeah, so. So that's the type of stories that were coming out in the 70s. One of them. And interestingly, by the way, all of the ones in the 70s that I could find are all in children's books.

[Christine]

Huh.

[Em]

So I wonder if, like, they. They had to change it to have a moral so that way kids could learn a lesson. I don't know. But it's interesting that they all had to do more about women's consent. And they had. They were in the wave of feminism, and they were all in children's books.

[Christine]

Even in the 90s, did them less about. Oh, oh, so you mean before. Wait, when did the kid. Where's the consent coming in? In the 70s.

[Em]

In the 70s.

[Christine]

Okay. And then did they take it? Oh, and then the 90s one. Did they take it?

[Em]

We haven't gone to that yet. Okay, we haven't gotten to that yet.

[Christine]

But the one you read out loud was that. The one from.

[Em]

That was from 1984. And she in that was saying, don't touch my.

[Christine]

Oh, I see. Oh, okay. Okay.

[Em]

Yeah, yeah. But all of them. I just think it's interesting. I don't know what that means, but the only versions I could find were in kids stories and happened.

[Christine]

Well, I guess they're probably like those kind of. I mean, it is sort of like a kid's campfire tale.

[Em]

Yeah, that's true. I also wonder if nowadays you don't really like. It's so short of a story, it almost has to be a cautionary tale about something else. It couldn't be its own book, know.

[Christine]

Yeah, I don't know.

[Em]

Anyway, so in one version, in this new wave of consent, the man is so pissed, he's not allowed to touch her Ribbon that he waits until she falls asleep and cuts it off.

[Christine]

Jesus. Okay, well. Oh, these are. These are in the kids stories, you're saying. Okay. I thought you'd already touched on as much consent as we're gonna get. And I was like, I don't think that's okay. That's intense. Wow.

[Em]

Yeah. So. And then her head rolls away, and it's supposed to teach him a lesson about, you know, after the fact, consent and. Yeah. Anyway, so in more modern versions, like, coming out in, like, the 2000s or even the. Like, one of them came out in 2017, like, it's still. New versions are still being written. Yeah, it's. They have still kept the consent element to it, but it's almost even more so. Like, it's like, really in your face. Because it's such a. An obvious thing now.

[Christine]

It is a powerful thing now. Yeah, totally. It makes complete sense.

[Em]

In the 1820s, it like. Well, I guess it wasn't even. They weren't even implying that the man desperately wanted to touch her ribbon. It sounds like he was just having sex with her and not even thinking.

[Christine]

About the ribbon and then say, it sounds like none. He wasn't even remotely concerned at the time.

[Em]

Yeah. I wonder if maybe because more women became authors and they took their own spin on it and it was like, what if.

[Christine]

I also feel like it's a better horror story if somebody gets, like, a comeuppance or, like, a shock for being kind of an. I don't know. I just feel like it's also a better story. Like, you know, it's always like, oh, the teens who went out in the woods even though they weren't supposed to. Or like, it just always feels like, oh, and then if you leave the door on mystery happen. Yeah. Like there's some sort of, like, consequence, you know?

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

It's scarier than a love story, I think, certainly.

[Em]

Yeah. So anyway, it just kind of ends on the fact that in more modern versions, the moral has shifted to be even more about consent than anything else.

[Christine]

And interesting.

[Em]

There's really interesting commentaries people have done about. Now that it's seen in this light of don't touch my body. I'm going to do it anyway. The narratives of today, looking back on that story, are really interesting about the patriarchy and men controlling women's bodies. There was. A lot of people have done essays on what the green ribbon symbolizes.

[Christine]

Oh, I love that. So you can really explore it over time. That's cool.

[Em]

So one author named Carmen Maria Machado, she actually Wrote her own. I think it was a. I don't know if it was a personal story. I think. I think it was like a story she wrote, but she wrote it as if she was the main character.

[Christine]

Oh, wow.

[Em]

I think I'm getting that right. So in some ways it felt like an essay, but it was really like a. Like a cautionary tale and it was. She compares the green ribbon to a husband stitch. So for those who don't know a husband stitches, when they. When they're sewing a woman back together after labor, a lot of times they have done an additional stitch. So that way it is tighter for their husband later. And it has nothing to do with the woman's body. It's just like a really gross way of there being like a male ownership over her. It's just.

[Christine]

Yeah, it's sort of supposed to be like a present for the husband, quote unquote, to say, oh, well, I know now that she's had a baby, like, it's gonna all loose, loose down there. We might like. And then the joke goes, like, add an extra stitch for me, Doc. And that's the joke. Yeah. And like, it's been kind of debated how actually real it is. Yeah, I think it's definitely an old. It definitely happened. It was definitely an old. An older thing most of the time, I certainly hope. Yeah, hopefully that's not happening nowadays. Would be like, get the out of here and advise divorce to the person who just gave. Who just went into labor. But.

[Em]

But so was a really interesting comparison of, like, you know, I can give you everything. I can give you, like, even like the most intimate, vulnerable, vulnerable parts of me. And at the end, it's still gonna be like, up to you if I get to, like, some sort of ownership over my body. It was very interesting. And it also talked about symbolizing or a lot of authors now when they talk about the green ribbon, they say it symbolizes something that men can pressure women into regarding the woman's body for the sake of the man's own comfort or interest, our own interests, our own curiosity or whatever.

[Christine]

Comfortable when your head's attached. Yeah, it's just like a me thing.

[Em]

I know another author named A. E. Osworth. I thought this was interesting. Compared the green ribbon to wearing a mask during the pandemic around anti maskers who were like, take it off, take it off, take it off. Or why don't you just take it off? Like, it makes me comfortable.

[Christine]

You need that. You don't need that.

[Em]

You don't need that. Yeah, yeah. So I thought that was really interesting.

[Christine]

Wow.

[Em]

Other than that, I just was gonna leave it up to you on why we think it's so traumatizing to our generation. Because it really is just a paragraph.

[Christine]

And it's kind of amazing.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

It had such lasting power.

[Em]

It really was, I think, one of the first pieces of plot twist, though, that we probably ever.

[Christine]

Yeah, I think you hit it. Right. I think you hit it on the head when you said. Yeah. Like, it was the first kind of shot shock. Especially if we were, like, beginning beginner readers and we're, like, figuring out. I mean, that must feel also really empowering to be like, oh, my God. I just, like, read that by myself and figured out the plot twist.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Like, that must be a very. I. I did look it up experience.

[Em]

I did look it up. And when it comes to. No, no. They probably tell you I looked up more information on, like, the I can read books. And yeah, that book was a level two. That meant kids were reading those books around five or six.

[Christine]

It feels really young.

[Em]

And so I looked up, like, other things about 5 and 6 year olds to see, like, why there's such a connection to this story.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

Memory starts developing right before this time. Reading comprehension happens at exactly this time. And 5 to 6 is also the same age when kids start showing interest in horror.

[Christine]

Okay. Because it's kind of like that subversive, scary, like that thrill without being, like, overcome by fear.

[Em]

Yeah. So I think a combination of, like, I'm just learning how to remember things. I just figured out how reading comprehension works. And also, like, this might be my first, like, step into the world of spooky.

[Christine]

Yeah. Yeah. Wow.

[Em]

So it just unlocks a lot.

[Christine]

It's sort of like a. Like a gateway to the scary stuff. Because, like, we. I feel like everyone in our kind of space of liking spooky things can probably remember that story. I feel like that's a pretty. If they were from, like, the same period and read the book at the.

[Em]

Time, 100% anyway, that's the green ribbon.

[Christine]

Wow. Wow. I had no idea. I really just thought it was in that one book. It wasn't even the right book. Here we are.

[Em]

It's like a Mandela effect because I think most people think it's from that book.

[Christine]

When I say that, I was like, it feels like my first Mandela effect.

[Em]

So if anyone has any other stories they want me to cover, like, urban legends from childhood.

[Christine]

I really liked that because that was, like, the fact that it also has such a dark, like, with the beheadings and stuff.

[Em]

I mean, I think I. I never knew how chokers came to be. I didn't know it was because we were mimicking the guillotine and, like, honoring the victims of it.

[Christine]

It honestly gives me, like, goose cam a little bit.

[Em]

It makes me want to start wearing chokers more. It's like I literally bought a pack.

[Christine]

Pack before.

[Em]

To mourn the rebels.

[Christine]

Before I realized the. The detriment I was causing. I. I bought a big pack on Amazon, like, years ago, and I. The detriment I was causing with using Amazon and buying bulk chokers. But I. I bought these jokers, and they're all, like, the elastic ones, but they have all different things. They're so cheap that they break when I wear them one time, but I have, like, 100 of them, and so.

[Em]

I feel like I would look down and they'd snap in half.

[Christine]

They would. Yeah, they're kind of junky. Eva gave me a really beautiful dark red velvet one, though, which it feels very right for my.

[Em]

She has no idea what she's done.

[Christine]

Yeah, it felt right for this. I should have pulled that out. Wow. Good one.

[Em]

Thank you.

[Christine]

Now I feel like I need to come up with some suggestions because. Or requests.

[Em]

I mean, you should cover the hook. That one always got me the hook. Oh, I don't know. Is that true crime or is it urban legends?

[Christine]

I think that's you. I think that's you, dude.

[Em]

Maybe I'll cover the hook next, because that one always got me.

[Christine]

Also because I want to. I want you to also do. What's the one. You've just opened up, like, a floodgate of suggestions here. I bet you among people, the one with the clown. The campfire story about the humans can lick too, or whatever.

[Em]

Oh, a clown. I always heard the dog. That'll be fun.

[Christine]

Oh, yeah, mine. My version was a clown. I'm sure they're all. Yeah, I'm sure there's a.

[Em]

What the hell?

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

No. Okay, well, I'll see it. Maybe I'll do, like, an A series of urban legends.

[Christine]

That's gonna be really fun. And that feels also very Halloweeny. Like, it does tell those scary stories.

[Em]

Maybe I'll. I'll do in the Dark. Maybe I'll save them for Halloween then.

[Christine]

That could be fun. We could do, like, a reading. A little reading.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Hey, so I don't know if you know this about me, folks. I did do an entire, like, Instagram. Ask me anything about it. I will say that it has gotten better over time thanks to one of our sponsors. Today, no cd, but ocd, it's something I struggle with. It's something a lot of people have related to me with over social media and that kind of thing. OCD is a lot more than what it looks like on the surface. It's a serious and highly misunderstood condition. But no CD is something I've been using for years. So when they came forward and said, hey, we'd like to sponsor the show, I screamed very loudly.

[Em]

Not every therapist understands OCD or is qualified to treat it effectively, which can make it difficult to find the right help. But it doesn't have to be that way. OCD is highly treatable with a specialized type of therapy called erp, or Exposure and Response Prevention. And general talk therapy is not recommended for OCD and can actually make it worse.

[Christine]

With nocd, you can do live virtual ERP therapy with licensed therapists who specialize in ocd. NOCD therapists are highly trained, so they really understand OCD and won't judge you no matter what your thoughts are about.

[Em]

No CD therapy is covered by insurance for over 155 million Americans. If you think you or someone you know might be struggling with OCD, please don't wait to get help. Go to nocd.com and book a free call with their team to learn more. That's n o c d.com to Schedule A free call and learn more.

[Christine]

All right, so as I mentioned up top, May is missing and Murdered Indigenous People Awareness Month. This is something that I, especially, as a true crime podcaster, keep on the calendar every year. And thankfully, the people on our team are not only aware, but they're also, unlike me, good at looking ahead. And so Megan messaged Saoirse and me, like, in March or April or something, instead of, like, heads up, like, you know, since because we're recording a little bit in advance, you might want to start prepping, you know, some. Some stories to whatever. So I was really thankful for that. So I just want to say thank you. We have an awesome team and snaps for Saoirse. Seriously, for all of you, for Megan, for reminding us.

[Em]

Oh, Megan, sorry.

[Christine]

And. And obviously, but for all of you, because I do. I feel like we don't give you enough. Enough credit. So here is what I'm going to tell you about. This is the story of Chanel Lockwood, also known as Pretty.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

Sorry. Sometimes people say they can tell by the way that I sigh or, like, make a noise at the beginning how bad it's going to be. And I.

[Em]

We should just do a psy meter I know, right?

[Christine]

I know.

[Em]

There's not an episode where I. You don't start.

[Christine]

It's not gonna. Right. It's not gonna not. It's not gonna be zero ever. Right. But unless I'm doing the Grinch again, which works on Cletus.

[Em]

Whatever.

[Christine]

Yeah, no, that was the. Wasn't that the Grinch?

[Em]

Oh, wait, I don't know anymore.

[Christine]

Doesn't matter. I think it doesn't matter.

[Em]

No, Cletus was me. The Grinch was when you sang. You know, right.

[Christine]

How could I forget? Okay, so Saoirse was also thoughtful enough to give me a few pronunciation guides, so I watched some videos. Really interesting. We're going to be talking about a group of people called the Yupik. They're a group of indigenous peoples of western, southwestern and south central Alaska and the Russian Far East. They're related to the Inuit. And Yupik is the largest of the state's native languages, both in the size of its population and the number of speakers. So there are a few creators on TikTok and YouTube that give lessons on culture and pronunciation of certain words. And a lot of people in these areas actually learn Yopik as our first language. So it's like a pretty vibrant language, which is great. So we're going to be talking about a girl named Chanel Lockwood, and she was born in the spring of 1998. When she came home from the hospital, her three year old brother held his new baby sister. Why do you keep crying during episodes? Like, what's wrong with me?

[Em]

I just look insensitive because I just.

[Christine]

No, you don't. I just look like I've. I've. I'm having a emotional crisis at every point of the day, which is probably true. He told his parents he thought his baby sister was so beautiful that her name should be pretty. Pretty.

[Em]

That's so much better than when Bendy Irwin decided to call Robert Irwin Brian. Do you remember, do you know that story? Bendy Irwin, I guess, was used to naming all of the animals at the zoo.

[Christine]

That's Steve. Steve Irwin's daughter.

[Em]

Yes. Yeah, the. The Irwin kids. And so Bendy Irwin was there first and she was used to naming all of the animals at the zoo as a little kid. So when her mom got pregnant, assumed she would be naming the baby. And so when she met the baby, she was like two or three herself. And she's like, oh, his name's Brian. And they went, we're calling him Robert. And she went, I think I'm gonna call him Brian. And So to this day, she calls him Brian.

[Christine]

Wait, okay, that's super cute. I don't think I really understood the whole story. I thought, okay, that's sweet.

[Em]

Yeah. Anyway, sorry, speaking of me looking insensitive, I was just trying to come up with something lighthearted before it gets horribly bad.

[Christine]

No, I mean, it's worth saying because it's like, that's just really sweet because just like that, the nickname stuck and they. They call. They called her Pretty. And that's very, very sweet. I know. And the fact that he gave her a first and last name. Pretty. Pretty. You know, I just.

[Em]

Oh, I didn't. I didn't catch that part.

[Christine]

Yeah, Pretty. Pretty. And so over time, they just started calling the baby Pretty, and she just grew up to be Pretty. And I just think that's the sweetest story.

[Em]

Any other brother on earth would have picked a different.

[Christine]

I know, Butthead or something. Yeah, I mean, even I would have picked a dumber name, you know, for my brother when he was bo. So, wow. It's just a really sweet way to introduce you to Pretty because that's what she went by as she grew up. But of course, most of the sources use her legal name of Chanel, so that's typically what I'm gonna say. Pretty was more of a nickname in her community. Chanel was the third of nine siblings, five daughters and four sons. She grew up in St. Michael, Alaska, which is a majority Yupik community of just over 400 people. There is another name for this town as well in Yupik, and it's spelled T A C, I, Q. We could not find a pronunciation guide on that, so I don't want to, you know, just guess, but that is the traditional name for it. The village is located on the northeast coast of St. Michael island in a volcanic field in Norton Sound, which is part of the Bering Sea. The communities here rely largely on subsistence living, and residents harvest berries. They, like, basically commune with the land, with nature, and that's, That's a lot of their culture, but also their lifestyle as far as, you know, getting. Getting resources and providing for families, that kind of thing. There's also, of course, the. The sea nearby. So they have that resource as well. Fish, seal, that kind of thing. It's also a tight knit place. Everybody kind of knows each other, very close community. And Chanel was a very friendly girl, and so she made a lot of. Of good friends. But her best friend was a guy named Mitch Shelikoff, and he later reminisced that hours of walking and Talking was almost their daily ritual. They would just walk. I know. It's like all of this, wow, she's got such a.

[Em]

Like a lovely set of men in her life.

[Christine]

I was gonna say. I feel like you don't see that. Right.

[Em]

And no, she's got a brother that calls her pretty. A best friend that just wants to walk around.

[Christine]

Yeah. Especially in a true crime. There's just something really beautiful about. About it.

[Em]

Sidebar. But you said she was the third of nine.

[Christine]

She was a fifth of. Third of nine. I'm sorry, third of nine.

[Em]

Did her brother get to name the others?

[Christine]

Oh my gosh.

[Em]

Because what, what happens after pretty? Like, I'd be like, oh, so that's pretty. And I'm okay. Anyway, it's so nice that she had so many boys in her life that were really kind to her.

[Christine]

I'm realizing too is five daughters and four sons and he. So. And she was the first daughter in the family. So, like, she was probably the first girl. And the, the little boy was like.

[Em]

Like, oh my gosh, she's so pretty.

[Christine]

Oh, it makes me.

[Em]

That's melting.

[Christine]

I know. Oh, gosh. Okay. It's like, how do people not know these stories? Like, these stories should be everywhere. They shouldn't even be unsolved. Okay. Spoiler alert. But I think we all saw that coming. So her best friend Mitch, they basically would just walk and talk every day. Chanel was considered soft hearted, but also very capable. Her mother's name was Yvonne Evans in. And she said Chanel was basically. She described her as a basketball player tomboy who took care of herself. And speaking of indigenous writers, that just occurred to me. I read a book by Stephen Graham Jones called. I think it's called the Only Good Indian. And it's set on a reservation and it has like a daughter who plays basketball and just this kind of like tough girl theme to it. So I feel like if any. And it's a horror novel. So what's it called? It's called the Only Good Indian. I believe it's by Stephen Graham Jones. And it's. It weaves in a lot of like, his, like, folklore from, from his culture. And it's just a. It's a really good. He writes good horror stories, horror books. Speaking of, you know, your, your thing. But it's called the Only Good Indians if anyone needs a good book. It's pretty scary. Okay. I'm trying to get into horror now. It only took me since I was traumatized in apparently age five or six. Six.

[Em]

I was gonna say you could start with the 1984 classic.

[Christine]

You know what? I think I did start with it, and then I paused for 30 years because I was like, I don't think so. Not for me today. Thank you. I have enough trauma in my life. I don't need to know about this dead girl. Here we go. So I just thought of that because of the basketball player tomboy character. So she was very protective of her younger sisters, especially. She was the eldest girl, and she watched her mom, as she grew up, take care of her own mother in old age. And so she became really interested in that kind of caretaking, and she decided to go into medicine. So when she graduated high school in 2017, she decided to enroll at the University of Alaska in Anchorage. But, you know, this was the end of senior year, so she had the summer ahead of her to enjoy before school started. Up until now, Chanel actually didn't live with her mom. She lived in St. Michael with their uncle and other relatives and her siblings as well. And Yvonne would visit back and forth between Anchorage and St. Michael. But because now she was going to Anchorage for college, she got to live. She was going to get to live with her mother full time. I hate that I keep having to change the tense to, like, she was supposed to have a wonderful experience living with her mom. So because they had never really lived together or hadn't lived together in a long time, she was absolutely thrilled. She and her mom were extremely close, and she was very, very excited to. Her mom actually flew out for her high school graduation and said it was the proudest day of her life. And she was so excited that she was coming out to college to be near her. And so that would have started in the fall of 2017. So we're back in May when, you know, graduation just happened. Mother's Day, which, again, this May theme is really hitting this month, this episode. So for Mother's Day, she made her mom a. Now I'm gonna say this, and I've been practicing, but it's a different sound than I'm used to. Sorry, let me say that again. A crisp book. Literally. She described it so perfectly. She said it's the guttural sound that a. That a raven makes when it caws. And I'm like, oh, okay. So I've been practicing, but I've.

[Em]

So you've been channeling a raven.

[Christine]

Literally. Thank you for understanding.

[Em]

So you were only one step away from delusional, and now you. You like those birds so much. You want to be one?

[Christine]

I really do. The only Problem is, then a crow came through and I started calling. That's not the right sound.

[Em]

I wish a songbird or.

[Christine]

I'm sorry. Yeah, I know that would be nice. Let's just sing a dahu dory. So basically she said a very guttural sound. It's like. So she said, sure. Sorry, I'm. I'm gonna try, but Kuspok.

[Em]

And that's the name of what.

[Christine]

Sorry, sorry. This is a traditional garment that, that I haven't even said it yet. I'm sorry. It's a traditional garment that was worn by. That is worn by this community. Community. It's just a traditional Alaskan garment. It has a hood. And Chanel was a very talented seamstress. So she adorned the cuspic with these hand embroidered designs and made this for her mother, which I just think is so beautiful. Neither of them could wait for fall and for Chanel to move in and start their adventure together. So it's now July. Chanel is doing her daily walk. But today Mitch is unable to join her.

[Em]

God.

[Christine]

God. He was in Nome, Alaska for an appointment. And that's over 100 miles northwest. So this is like an all day affair. So he's not able to come on their walk. During one of their all day text conversations, Chanel tells her mom, Yvonne that she's going out for a walk. And Yvonne is like, I don't really like you going alone. Mostly because of the moose and bears. Like, not even for people, right? But like it's just Alaska, you know, and it's like, okay, be careful, especially by yourself. Herself. But Chanel was just like so used to these walks. They were second nature to her. She did them every day. She said, oh, don't worry, I'll call you when I get home. Before she left, she spent the evening with her Uncle John. He made them dinner. Chanel told him she was counting down the days till she got to move to Anchorage with her mom. They talked excitedly about her plans. They rode ATVs that evening. And then Chanel walked to the beach near their house. Your house. I mean, if you had a beautiful beach near your house.

[Em]

Come on.

[Christine]

Of course you would walk there every day. Like, it's just so hard.

[Em]

Also, what a lovely day. Dinner with your family, then you're gonna go ride ATVs.

[Christine]

You're counting down days to see your mom. Like, it's just such a. It's such a, like wholesome and beautiful thing to just destroy. And her best friend is just out of town for the day, but like he'll be on the walk tomorrow, and you can catch him up. Like, it's just really, really awful. But, you know, this is Alaska, and so the sunlight is. Is all. Is always there. Not always, but it's not quite the midnight sun. But summer in Alaska can last last 20 hours a day of daylight, so they're very, very long days. And that day in particular, July 10, the sun rose at about 5am and it set just before 1am so they were about, like, four hours of darkness, which is a wild thought to me.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

I would struggle more with the opposite one, but I would thrive.

[Em]

Oh, my God. Where it's only dark in the dark. Yes. What are you. Are you new here?

[Christine]

I literally hate to understand it. I get so depressed when. Without vitamin D every time I see.

[Em]

The sun, I go, you know, let. Obviously you don't, because you don't watch Okus Pocus every year like the rest of us. But when Winifred Sanderson goes, h, another glorious morning, it makes me sick.

[Christine]

Yeah. Yeah, I do love that. I feel like that's. That's the vibe. And I wish I were that way because it would be very helpful to me, especially in the winters. But I just. I get so depressed. I'm like, I don't know. I think I just need one of those sun lamps all the time.

[Em]

I don't know her.

[Christine]

So anyway, it's light out 20 hours a day, which, especially if you're going for a walk in the evening is like, okay, great. I'm not gonna be in the dark. I don't need to, like, look out things I can't see. So fast forward to the next day. Mitch is back in St. Michael, and he and Chanel were supposed to go on their walk together. And he gets home, and people are like, oh, hey, where's Chanel? And he goes, what do you mean, I just got home? And they say, we didn't see her since her walk last night. So, of course, Mitch is immediately worried. It's a small community. And he's like, how does nobody know where she is? Like, I. I just went away for a couple days. I come home and she's gone. So he didn't have a phone, so he set out on foot to ask everyone he saw for news or if they'd seen anything. And that evening, while Yvonne was getting ready for bed, she gets a call from her sister, who's Chanel's aunt and her aunt. Chanel's aunt. Yvonne's sister has to tell her that her daughter has been found Dead on the beach next to her house.

[Em]

Oh, my God. So. So she walked to the beach and that's where it happened. Okay.

[Christine]

Yes, yes. Yvonne didn't know how to react. She literally didn't believe her sister. Right. Like, you would just be like, what are you talking about? Like, how do you even process that? So she hung up the phone. She dialed Chanel. It went straight to voicemail. She called the health aid. Sorry, let me say that again. She called the health aide on call number for. For those who don't know, on call, health aids are local professionals in Alaska native villages who are trained to provide urgent medical services after regular do office hours. So it's sort of like an on call medical provider. Of course, the aid who picked up, this being a small town and all, was Yvonne's niece.

[Em]

Oh, my God, that's terrible.

[Christine]

Yvonne's niece picks up, recognizes Yvonne's voice, bursts into tears, and said, you have to call the police department. I'm not like, I don't want to say anything. You have to call the police department.

[Em]

Yeah. Also again, shout out to dispatchers everywhere.

[Christine]

Because any sort of on call, you don't know what you're going to get situation is just, just. Yeah, I couldn't, I don't. I couldn't handle it. So of course, Yvonne is in full panic. She calls the village police station and they give the phone to her son, who is already there. And her son gets on the phone with his mom. His mom says, let me talk to pretty. He says, you can't, mom. She's dead. So news had already broken in St. Michael that somebody had been discovered dead on a beach. And when it was confirmed that it was Chanel hell, Mitch went straight to see her family. He just held on to her sisters and they just cried. They just were completely at a loss of what to do. When Alaska state troopers received a report about a body discovered in St. Michael, they responded alongside a village public safety officer and village police officer. This would be the first of not many steps into a pretty fraught investigation.

[Em]

Let's of not many steps is all you needed to say.

[Christine]

Yeah, there we go. Yeah, yeah. Ding, ding, ding. Many rural communities in Alaska have no full time law enforcement services, or their officers lack the training or qualifications to keep the community safe. There's also, of course, a lack of funding to provide housing or competitive pay and among other, like, very major systemic law enforcement issues. Therefore, when they do hire what are called VPOs or village police officers, there's often, like a very lax hiring process. So much so that investigations into the issue found that people hired to protect their communities as village police officers were often guilty of having harassed and assaulted their own families, especially women and children. According to a 2019 article by Anchorage Daily News, in Stebbins, which was a village only eight miles away from St. Michael Michaels village police officers had been hired despite their convictions for sex crimes, animal cruelty, assault, and domestic violence. So these are the sorts of people that they are hiring to maintain law and order in the community, which already is troubling. If that's, you know, one of the first people on scene at the death of your child, I can only imagine so. Melanie Banky is a board member for the Alaska Federation of Natives, and she criticized the system for placing these individuals in a position where they have control over people and also, like, access to law enforcement and like, direct resources like that, which seems wrong. That's. Sorry, that's my own addition. In a position where they have control over people and possibly could victimize the victims further. So the Alaska Federation of Natives has a big problem with this. When investigations and emergencies are escalated to state law enforcement, there can be a very slow, ticking response. It can sometimes take state troopers hours or even weeks to respond to emergencies, including active shooters and child abductions.

[Em]

Sorry, Weeks.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

For an active shooter.

[Christine]

Yeah. It's like. I mean, it will get there eventually. It's just all.

[Em]

So just say, nobody's coming all the.

[Christine]

Way to the top. It's just bad news. I just. It's like one of those things where you're like, the whole thing needs to be and figured out people. I don't know how. I don't know. I don't know.

[Em]

That's so. I mean, duh. Disturbing.

[Christine]

Yeah. So going off that. In the days following Chanel's death, her family just waited for.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Just for anything.

[Em]

At that point, you just keep on keeping on. You just go back to life, and.

[Christine]

What do you do? You have to just wait. So Yvonne's brother, John Evan II, said that state troopers flew to St. Michael for a few days in July. But he was like. They didn't really talk to many people. They didn't ask many questions, and then they just. Just left. So Yvonne was a little disturbed about how much makeup the funeral home put on her daughter for the wake. But her family said it was necessary because the bruising they had seen was so extensive that they needed to put on really, really thick amounts of makeup to. To cover her. She had also had a patch of hair ripped out in a struggle.

[Em]

Oh, my God.

[Christine]

And that is all that her mother knew because she saw her at the wake, she saw her, her body and realized all the makeup was covering some sort of bruising. But by the end of September, which was two months later, Yvonne told reporters that she had absolutely no information regarding her daughter's death. That was it. She had seen her and had kind of put together two and two to.

[Em]

Be like, oh my gosh, forget collecting evidence, right?

[Christine]

It's like this was a violent death and that's all she knows, but that's it. And it's that I can't imagine, I can't imagine. She didn't even know to how, how her daughter died. They didn't even tell her, you know, whether it was strangulation, was a stabbing. Like none of that. She's trauma, right? No clue. She said the medical examiner would not release cause of death because it was an open investigation. But then everyone was like, well what's the investigation then? Is there an investigation? And Yvonne said she didn't even know whether foul play was being considered. They hadn't even told her if this was a homicide or an accident. Like she doesn't, she didn't know if somebody had accidentally, you know, it's just.

[Em]

Or if she was assaulted too.

[Christine]

Exactly. Yeah. No, no information on that at the very least. Yeah. Yvonne called the investigators offices over and over asking for updates on Chanel's case and there was just no information to find. The authorities handling the case outside lived outside Chanel's community. And so there, there weren't those social connections they had to the people in their own town. And they couldn't easily go there to investigate in person or talk to anyone in person. So it just felt like there was already this barrier to entry almost on top of that, the case was reassigned to different investigators multiple times. And they wouldn't tell Yvonne why. They were just shuffling it around. And so she didn't even know at a given time who was in charge or who the contact was. She said that the family was once told that ligature marks on Chanel's neck indicated she may have been strangled. But then they got no like follow up information and, and only a few members of family were told this, so they don't even know how true that is. Which imagine like the horror of thinking maybe that happened, but you don't know, like there's something extra dark about like.

[Em]

Well, just having this in the sinister. Yeah, yeah.

[Christine]

And, and then like not being able to move past it because you don't even know if that's true or not.

[Em]

No closure.

[Christine]

Yeah. No closure. So with no answers, of course, rumors start spreading through the town and nearby communities. Communities. People who knew Chanel posted lists of names to social media of folks they thought could have been involved in her death. Some rumors claimed that a number of different individuals were the last to be seen with Chanel the night she died. And Yvonne was horrified when people began suggesting maybe she might have died by suicide, because they were like, no, that's not even real.

[Em]

Like, she had, like, literally a chunk of her hairs ripped out of her head.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

What are you talking about?

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah. There's just. There's just rumors running around. John Ch. III told Anchorage Daily News, everybody knows it wasn't a suicide. That's. That's where. That's where her uncle was at.

[Em]

Which, sadly, it feels like that's the story of many people's lives, doesn't it?

[Christine]

I mean, everybody knows, but okay, sure. Yvonne said that investigators even considered that Chanel maybe just fell asleep on the beach.

[Em]

Beach.

[Christine]

What?

[Em]

What? Fell asleep talking. Fell asleep and died. What are you talking about? Fell asleep with her hair missing.

[Christine]

A hermit crab came. What are you talking about?

[Em]

Fell asleep and has bruises so bad that she needs makeup on her face.

[Christine]

And that's the end. And so it doesn't matter whether that's true or not. It's just the end. What is wrong with you? Literally, what is wrong with you? This is a.

[Em]

A girl that's the same.

[Christine]

It's just.

[Em]

Just.

[Christine]

It's just the fact that this is so common is. And, folks, it's really common. Okay, I'll give you the numbers in a little bit, but it's disturbing. When Chanel's cause of death was finally released, it only stoked more questions and rumors because the medical examiner declared the cause of death, drowning of undetermined etiology due to submergent submersion in ocean water under unknown circumstances.

[Em]

So she drowned while she. She drowned.

[Christine]

So the. So the word etiology, which I did not know, and that's E, T, I, O, L, O G Y is quote, the cause, set of causes or manner of causation of a disease or condition. So unknown etiology, which is. Or it says here, undetermined etiology means that the cause is unknown. So the cause of Chanel's death was drowning for reasons unknown, in circumstances unknown, but by ocean war water.

[Em]

That. I don't believe it.

[Christine]

That she was submerged. It's like, so you don't know if it was foul play. How do you not know?

[Em]

Also, like, was she wet from the ocean when you found.

[Christine]

We don't know. That's the other thing. They don't tell the family anything. They just saw what.

[Em]

Believe that for a second.

[Christine]

This is like. This is. What's so sinister is like there's just no entry point to get this information for this family. It's like what. It's so sinister because it's just.

[Em]

And also like, if it under the rug, if the people that should be there to help weren't there for like weeks, like, what evidence do you have.

[Christine]

At all that she'll kind of say, how do.

[Em]

Is there no water on her? What are you talking about? Because she could have just been. While she's getting probably beaten up. She could have been maybe tossed into the water and then brought back. Like, I mean, like she didn't. If she drowned, how did someone find her on land? What are you about talking. Talking about. Unless you got washed back up or something.

[Christine]

I guess that's the argument that she went out.

[Em]

This is stupid.

[Christine]

It's stupid. I'm sorry. Yes. Technically, somebody can go. I can hear the. Well, actually. Yeah, somebody could have. She could have gone swimming at 10pm for no reason by herself, and then accidentally ripped her own hair out and drowned.

[Em]

And has. Is full of bruises.

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah, maybe. But like, it wasn't that.

[Em]

But also maybe not.

[Christine]

But also so maybe not.

[Em]

I wasn't there. I got me a hunch that it's not that. That's not the truth. Sorry.

[Christine]

So years pass. So whether or not she. It was an accident or not seems irrelevant anyway to the people in charge. Years pass with no updates, no closure, no justice for Chanel in 2023, fun fact. Alaska State Troopers communications director Austin McDaniel told NBC News that Chanel's death is considered a homicide. Inside surprise.

[Em]

You were wrong, Christine. It's not weeks. It's years. It's years.

[Christine]

Fun fact. Sometimes they surprise you.

[Em]

Even when who even decided to reopen that case with what happened?

[Christine]

Actually, he said the investigation is at a complete halt. And according to him, authorities identified a suspect during investigative interviews with 75 individuals, then submitted their findings to the Alaska Department of Law. Law, which would not prosecute with the existing evidence. And apparently DNA evidence was collected at the scene. But Austin said two labs determined the samples were insufficient for analysis. And I'm like, you had her whole body there.

[Em]

Her whole body.

[Christine]

17. And you didn't get Eva. You didn't get DNA evidence. Because if you're saying, oh, there's the samples are insufficient, that means that you did not really? Get. Get the samples.

[Em]

Yeah. No, you didn't.

[Christine]

No, sorry. Like, that's. Come on. It feels like 101. Sorry. But like, Jesus Christ.

[Em]

Yeah, I also. Why are we picking a wound? Like, why are you now coming forward and being like, by the way, because they asked.

[Christine]

It's now like, tell us what's going on. And he was like, oh, well, it's a homicide. And they were like, what? Like, I think people were pressuring them to say something. So they finally said something. But rather than. Than release a public statement saying, if you have any. And Right. Come forward instead. NBC News reported that Austin declared the case was now closed. So it can't even be solved. The end. So basically, you're right. Like, so they. So they were like, tell us what's going on. He's like, oh, it's a homicide. And it's like, okay, maybe we can get some traction. Never mind.

[Em]

That's. I mean, it's like, okay.

[Christine]

Closer. He said there are no further investigative measures that can be taken to increase the likelihood of prosecution. Now, of course, Chanel's family is no stranger to violence in their community, especially no strangers to living without justice or closure. For example, Chanel's great uncle, Lawrence Lockwood Jr. Belongs to an entire generation who survived years of sexual abuse by Jesuit Catholic church personnel living and working on the island for decades. This has become a very big hot topic. Recently, a lawsuit filed against the church claimed that priests and other church personnel with histories of sexual abuse were purposefully reassigned to the rural Alaskan communities because they're just lack of community safety, infrastructure, and medical care, and it's easier to just ship them there than actually find appropriate people who will take care of small children.

[Em]

Super.

[Christine]

Yeah. So avoiding the abuse or, you know, know, getting it out, they just made it impossible. They just sent them there and said, it's fine, you know, whatever. Attorney John Manley, who represented survivors in a lawsuit, said, quote, imagine every child in your community being molested and what that would be like. That's what they're dealing with here. Basically, the entire school of children went through this trauma. Although investigators say the suspect in Chanel's case was a community member, the people who live there and know each other are all like. Like, violence against indigenous folks most often comes from outside the community, and at least in this community in particular. I know there is also a lot of domestic violence and things like that happen in amongst indigenous communities against women and girls, but particularly this community. An abuse survivor who grew up in St. Mary's LC Boudreau says the way of being a young Yupik person is to live in peace, interconnected with the land, with ourselves, each other, animals, and the universe.

[Em]

It's their way of life.

[Christine]

It's just the whole lifestyle is being, like, at peace with the world. Right. And it's like, of course that keeps getting stolen over and over because there are just people looking to take advantage of that. And so these communities keep bearing the trauma of systematic abuse, failures of justice, just ignoring, getting swept under the rug. It's just so much trauma being passed down from generation to generation. In a 2019 interview, Lawrence said, what we grew up with can't be erased. And it just feels like they're trying to just kind of move on, you know, be like, oh, it's. It's probably nothing. You know, she probably just accidentally fell and got killed by a hermit crab. Don't worry about it. What the are you even talking about?

[Em]

Breathtakingly, breathtakingly.

[Christine]

Stupid is right. His older brother, Chanel's grandfather, Chuck Lockwood, was interviewed for the same article. And he is agonized, truly agonized by the thought of Chanel becoming another number in that statistic. I'm going to tell you, in a little bit of cases that just go unsolved because of who the victim is, he lives with this anger and heartbreak. Both brothers, of course, expressed anger about the injustices, many injustices their family has endured, especially as a whole community. They also express a desire to take matters into their own hands. Right. To get justice for Chanel. But they said they were raised to be so, you know, to be non violent and non confrontational.

[Em]

They don't even have the skill set.

[Christine]

For that in us for that. Yeah, we're not here to, like, fight, you know, against people. We just want.

[Em]

It has to be justice and peace. I. I imagine it's got to be such a juxtaposition, I guess, of like, I so, like, I so badly want justice, and yet there's no way for me to actually shake my fists that strong because it goes against my actual core.

[Christine]

You can't authentically necessarily make, like, you have to. Yeah.

[Em]

You have to deny a certain part of yourself to be a different part of yourself. It's. Yeah.

[Christine]

I mean, they're putting them in an impossible position. Like, how could it.

[Em]

It's heartbreaking and it's perfect bait to like, to just be. Totally be taken advantage of if, like, oh, well, we can do this and you're not gonna do anything about it.

[Christine]

And you're just gonna Be fine with it or whatever. You're just gonna.

[Em]

So to live a passive life and also be marginalized is like so I just feel so bad.

[Christine]

I know it's, it's this kind of, of trying to decide if you. Yeah, I can't imagine. I mean it's just a, it's also just such a culture clash, you know. And as we've kind of talked about, the, the greatest fear in a lot of these things, these cases is that the, these young women and girls will be forgotten and will just be like never, never remembered. And that's Yvonne's biggest fear is that everyone will for forget about Chanel in her case. Of course, like I mentioned earlier, there's a crisis of missing and murdered indig in the US and Canada for whom murder is one of the leading causes of death. Let that sink in everybody. Many indigenous led organizations focus on missing and murdered indigenous women, girls and two spirit LGBTQI plus people. And in a report on the crisis, the Urban Indian Health Institute wrote that systemic and institutional practices allow indigenous women and girls to disappear not once but three times in life, in the media media and in the data. And that is heartbreaking because when it comes to the data and it's just being erased or deleted or oh, suicide and just, you know, moved on is like you're erasing a history that we could learn from or like a past that we could build and make better in the future. And you're just not, you're actively avoiding it. And it's super, super rough. And if it, I mean we've talked about two spirit before but I know it's not necessarily the most widespread term term, especially for folks who are not in, in the Indigenous community. But two spirit is what two sometimes written as the numeral two. And then the letter S is sometimes equated by non native people to mean simply an indigenous person who is gay or trans. But two spirit is actually a cultural identity that doesn't really have like a one to one ratio, like a one to one kind of word or name or, or label in our sort of culture. It's more than just like an indigenous version of this thing we have. It's. It's their own kind of practice. And there are a lot of people online who will give beautiful explanations better than any I could do. So if you're interested in learning more about that, I definitely recommend looking into that. But According to that report, 5712. Kate, let me say again, 5712 cases of missing and murdered indigenous girls and Women were reported in 2016. 5712. How many were logged? 116 into the US Department of Justice database. So the Department of Justice just has.

[Em]

What percentage is that reports?

[Christine]

Let me see. Find out.

[Em]

5. Like, half a million. Is that the number you said earlier?

[Christine]

No, no. Five thousand.

[Em]

Five thousand. Oh, thank God. I was like, what in the.

[Christine]

Oh, my God. I said it three times. I hope I said it right.

[Em]

No, I. You. I just got overwhelmed immediately. I knew the number was going to be bad, so I just extrapolated.

[Christine]

It's 2%. 2%. I mean, come on.

[Em]

And that's how many are in the database.

[Christine]

Have been. Have been logged. Yeah. Of these cases, that's how many are in the DOJ database.

[Em]

And see, like, how can. How can people see that and just go, that's fine. How the fuck can you see that? And it's thinking that's normal or tolerable or professional or morally. Okay.

[Christine]

It's just easier. I really think it's just easier. And people don't like to face things that are bad and scary, especially if it, like, looks bad on them or.

[Em]

So what? Deal with it. Like.

[Christine]

Yeah, agreed. Agreed.

[Em]

God. Yeah. That's horrible. I mean, horrible doesn't. Horrible doesn't equate. That's really horrible.

[Christine]

You're right. I just have a few more bullets here, and then we're done. According to the National Congress of American Indians, more than 4 in 5American Indian Alaska Native women, which is. Let me give you. Speaking of percentages, 84.3%, four in five have experienced violence in their lifetime. Physical violence or sexual and. Or sexual violence. And homicide was the third highest cause of death among specifically American Indian and Alaska native girls ages 15 to 19. Wow. The third highest cause of death among teenage girls is in this community. Alaska Native community.

[Em]

That's murder.

[Christine]

Those are children. Yeah, those are little girls. What the. As far as women aged 20 to 24 and two. And by the way, I want to also add, this is from 2019. This. This case, this study. That's five years ago for us right now. Or six years ago ago.

[Em]

That's, like, terrifying.

[Christine]

Pretty recent, you know, more than four and five. And so third homicide is the third highest cause of death among girls age 15, 19. And among women age 20 to 24 as well in 2018. So.

[Em]

So from 15 to 24.

[Christine]

Yeah. So let's just lump them together. 15 to 24. Women and girls. Girls.

[Em]

So teenagers and young women just. It's just.

[Christine]

Just all the way through. Third highest cause of Death is. Is homicide. And four in five, more than four and five will experience physical and sexual violence.

[Em]

Oh, my God. And as you said, it's mainly from outsiders of the community.

[Christine]

Yeah. There. It's. It's often outsiders. I actually wonder if there's a statistic on that. I will. I will look into that as well, because I. I want to make sure I don't misspeak on that. Janelle was just 19 when she was killed, so guess what? She fits squarely into the average mean of this fucking statistic as far as people are concerned. Exactly. Which is, can you imagine something scarier than not only the horror of this experience, but then also realizing, like, people just don't care or aren't going to remember, like, it just must be hell, you know?

[Em]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Christine]

So violence against indigenous people is underreported, and then, as we've already learned, once it's even reported, it's usually ignored. The Department of Law stated that if it receives new information about Chanel's death, it will evaluate the additional evidence to decide whether it is appropriate to bring charges. And until that happens, those who love Chanel feel stuck and just hope somebody will do so. I mean, what are you gonna do? You know, they. They've tried their avenues. They're being blocked at every turn. And there's a bigger system that can just eat you up and spit you out, you know, and that rules, rules until things change. Yvonne said, I'm knocking on the door, but nobody's answering. And I just find that to be.

[Em]

Like, oh, my God.

[Christine]

Sickening, dark. And Mitch, the best friend, says he prays every night before. Before he goes to bed that Chanel receives justice someday. But for now, like, to pray and to hope and to wait and to try and survive, this is, like, kind of all they can do. Of course, there's more you can do as far as getting, you know, the word out and that kind of thing. But I don't think that onus falls on the family. Right. Like, that's more my job or our job. It's just a really, really tough thing. And so I want to. I also pulled a few resources here just to have. I'm going to put these in the show notes there, because it can feel really daunting to hear something like this and be like, well, what am I supposed to do, you know, if you're not. Which I can understand and relate to. So there's an article called Six Ways to Be Active in the MMIW Movement. Movement. There's a toolkit to Any families or communities experiencing this. And then the resource I mentioned earlier, nativehope.org will also add that in there and that is the story. I'm. I'm sorry Em. I talked your freaking ear off. I just, I knew there wasn't much room to kind of be funny. Silly. Right. Like there wasn't much backstory because there's not much reported about this. Yeah, there's enough to know how horrible it is but not enough to know like how to find an answer.

[Em]

Yeah, that's to say oh we don't.

[Christine]

Know how she died but she drowned but we don't know why or how. And then it's just the years later go oh it's a homicide.

[Em]

It's just the blatant incompetence.

[Christine]

Yeah. And, and not even incompetence but just.

[Em]

Like lack of effort.

[Christine]

Yes, yes.

[Em]

The lack of compassion. Let's just lack of everything.

[Christine]

Yeah, just like apathy about it like.

[Em]

Eh, yeah, just like totally everything else matters more than this. Just like I don't give a. Yeah.

[Christine]

About your 19 year old daughter who was coming to live with you.

[Em]

Oh my God.

[Christine]

Anyway, it's really, really rough and somebody on Reddit did just complain that my stories are all so dark but I listen.

[Em]

Well, don't worry. I got in a really good Bendy Irwin joke earlier.

[Christine]

Yeah, there you go. Did that, did that fix it for you? Oh gosh.

[Em]

Landed. Joke. Landed.

[Christine]

Yeah, that was. Maybe it's better now. I.

[Em]

No, I. Is. Is this going to be a series throughout May? Is that what's happening?

[Christine]

We do have a couple. I don't want to make it just like a big like to do. I want to. I want to. I, I know I also always say this but I try to keep things kind of coming throughout the year too to make sure that it's not just like once a year we talk about it.

[Em]

Yeah, yeah.

[Christine]

But you know we have a couple on deck. There is one that when Megan sent in we were in the middle of doing notes for that. I'm not sure if we going to put next or the week after. We'll see. But yes, I do have some more stories and I promise I won't just dump statistics on everyone. You've got them now so you can come back and listen if you want or just click on the links. I won't, I won't, I won't tell you all the stats again but you know, it's just worth hearing.

[Em]

Yeah. Well if you want something more light hearted you can head over to Patreon. And we're going to go do our.

[Christine]

Yappy hour, and I'm going to get a little bit high and tell you the story of how I'm. How I got. How I'm getting my tattoo.

[Em]

Yeah, sounds good. And that's why we drink.