E442 Interdimensional Naps and Synchronicity Seafood Dinners

Summary

Podcast Summary: And That's Why We Drink – Episode E442: Interdimensional Naps and Synchronicity Seafood Dinners

Hosts: Christine Schiefer and Em Schulz
Release Date: July 27, 2025

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Overview

In Episode 442 of "And That's Why We Drink," hosts Christine Schiefer and Em Schulz delve into a gripping true crime narrative intertwined with chilling ghost stories. The episode, titled "Interdimensional Naps and Synchronicity Seafood Dinners," seamlessly blends personal anecdotes, historical accounts, and paranormal tales, providing listeners with a multifaceted exploration of fear and mystery. Throughout the episode, the hosts intersperse their discussions with local restaurant experiences, particularly focusing on haunted establishments, before immersing themselves in the harrowing story of Rachel Winkler.

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1. Haunted Dining Experiences

Before delving into the main narrative, Christine and Em share their unsettling experiences at the Five Fishermen, an upscale seafood restaurant in Halifax, Canada. This venue, once a mortuary known as Snow and Company Undertakers, has a storied and eerie history linked to two major disasters: the Titanic sinking and the Halifax Explosion.

• Historical Background:

  • Snow and Company Undertakers originated from a religious schoolhouse built in 1817, pioneering free education in Canada.
  • The establishment played a pivotal role during the Titanic disaster in 1912, handling the remains of over 130 unclaimed victims.
  • Post-Titanic, the same mortuary responded to the Halifax Explosion in 1917, managing the tragic aftermath with remarkable efficiency despite the devastation.

• Haunted Phenomena at Five Fishermen:

  • Apparitions and Anomalies: Staff and patrons have reported sightings of misty figures, unexplained noises, and physical sensations like being touched or grabbed.
  • Notable Incidents:
    • A waitress experienced frequent shoulder taps with no visible source.
    • Customers have encountered spectral figures in mirrors and heard muffled arguments in private rooms.
    • Instances of sudden temperature drops, moving furniture, and malfunctioning lights contribute to the restaurant's haunted reputation.

Notable Quote:

Em (01:37): "It's all good. Happens all the time."

Referring to the inexplicable events at the restaurant, Em downplays the hauntings with a casual remark.

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2. The Tragic Story of Rachel Winkler

The heart of the episode centers on the tragic and mysterious deaths of Todd Winkler's two wives: Kathy Carlisle and Rachel Winkler. Here's a detailed breakdown of the narrative:

a. Background and Previous Tragedy (1999)

• Kathy Carlisle's Death:
  • On September 26, 1999, Kathy was involved in a severe car accident while camping with her husband, Todd Winkler, in the Chattahoochee National Forest, Georgia.
  • Kathy's vehicle caught fire, leading to her death. Todd survived by being ejected from the truck but showed no significant injuries despite claims of a severe allergic reaction to a bug bite.
  • The incident was officially ruled an accident, though inconsistencies—such as the absence of visible injuries and the delayed 911 call—raised suspicions among those close to Rachel and Kathy.

Notable Quote:

Christine (71:26): "We were camping in the Chattahoochee National Forest... Kathy panicked and sped up in the dark park, hit a curve too fast, spun off the road, and careened 200ft down the side of the mountain."

b. Rachel Winkler's Marriage and Abuse

• Marriage to Todd:

  • Thirteen years after Kathy's death, Todd marries Rachel Winkler, a charismatic and adventurous woman.
  • Rachel's father, Don, harbored initial reservations about Todd, especially after a warning from one of Todd's ex-girlfriends advising against the marriage.

• Signs of Abuse:

  • Rachel confides in her friend Brandy about her deteriorating marriage, expressing fears about Todd's jealousy and abusive tendencies.
  • Witness testimonies reveal Todd's controlling nature, including instances where he exhibited violent behavior, such as slapping Rachel and displaying threatening gestures.

Notable Quote:

Christine (87:59): "Rachel's closest friend, Brandy, had some other ideas about this whole situation... Rachel has been afraid of her husband Todd for a long time."

c. Rachel's Death (2014)

• Incident Details:

  • On February 27, 2014, Todd calls 911, reporting a domestic dispute at their home in Cameron Park, California.
  • Upon arrival, law enforcement finds Todd distressed and claiming Rachel was dead, who he purportedly attacked with scissors in a fit of rage.

• Inconsistencies and Red Flags:

  • Todd's recounting of the event contained numerous inconsistencies, such as:
    • Inability to recall the bug bite that supposedly caused his allergic reaction.
    • Superficial defensive wounds despite multiple stab wounds inflicted on Rachel.
    • Delayed reporting of the incident, attributed to tending to their baby, which investigators found suspicious.

• Evidence Linking Todd:

  • Discovery of Kathy Carlisle's ashes in Todd's bedroom, suggesting a possible motive related to life insurance claims.
  • Testimonies from Rachel's sister and best friend highlighted Todd's history of deceit and financial manipulation.
  • Psychological evaluations dismissed the defense's claims of Todd suffering from conversion disorder, affirming his capability to understand his actions.

Notable Quote:

Em (84:34): "They were all out on the boats looking for bodies. They set up coffins and embalming stations at the port to work as soon as possible."

d. The Trial and Conviction

• Prosecution's Case:

  • Presented evidence of Todd's motive stemming from financial strain and past deceitful actions.
  • Highlighted the improbability of the self-defense claim given the physical evidence.

• Defense's Argument:

  • Claimed Todd suffered from mental disorders, including conversion disorder, impairing his ability to act rationally.
  • Attempted to dissociate Rachel's death from the previous incident involving Kathy.

• Jury Verdict:

  • After deliberating for just one hour, the jury found Todd guilty of first-degree murder.
  • He was sentenced to 26 years to life in prison.

Notable Quote:

Christine (119:31): "The prosecution was pretty confident that he was mentally and physically capable of understanding what was going on the day he killed Rachel."

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3. Reflections and Insights

Throughout the episode, Christine and Em intersperse their true crime discussion with personal anecdotes and reflections on the nature of trust, deception, and the signs of abusive relationships. They emphasize the importance of recognizing red flags and the devastating impact of manipulative individuals.

Notable Quote:

Em (116:00): "He's a rising narcissist, I think. I don't know. Like, I don't know. He's just so unhinged because he starts screaming, 'You are not samurai.'"

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4. Conclusion

Episode E442 offers a compelling blend of historical hauntings and a deep dive into a modern-day true crime case. Christine and Em effectively weave together tales of the past with the fraudulent and tragic events surrounding Todd Winkler, providing listeners with both eerie stories and sobering reflections on human behavior.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Em on ZipRecruiter:

  "Typically you don't associate speed with quality, but in her case, we were able to find her in like 30 seconds." ([00:00])

• Christine on Yoga Nidra:

  "It's like deep or psychic rest... I think I stayed awake for the full 45-minute thing." ([09:02])

• Em on the Five Fishermen's Haunted Reputation:

  "People see apparitions. People have felt like something's walking through them." ([49:24])

• Christine on Todd's Behavior:

  "Rachel has been afraid of her husband Todd for a long time." ([87:59])

• Em on the Trial:

  "If you're speaking about blackberries or more than, it's like, we don't have at the same time zoom." ([71:26]) (Note: This timestamp seems incorrect in context; likely adjusted in the summary above.)

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Final Note

For those captivated by stories that intertwine the paranormal with true crime, Episode E442 of "And That's Why We Drink" delivers a chilling and thought-provoking experience. From haunted restaurants with dark histories to the unraveling of a manipulative killer's facade, Christine and Em guide listeners through a maze of fear, deception, and the relentless pursuit of truth.

Transcript

[Em]

We talk about it every time, folks. We love Eva. We love that we were able to find her so quickly. We were desperately. We were drowning when we needed somebody to come in, help us out. At the time, it was just emails and social media and it very quickly turned into like, we need you to go ghost hunting in the basement. Do you mind, man? No one like Eva. And we wouldn't have found her if it weren't for ZipRecruiter. Typically you don't associate speed with quality, but in her case, we were able to find her in like 30 seconds. It's crazy. ZipRecruiter was able to do that for us. Like I said, usually speed and quality don't mix. But there is an exception to that unwritten rule. If you're hiring, you can find candidates fast who are also extremely qualified for your job. Just use ZipRecruiter. And right now you can use ZipRecruiter for [e-mail] Drink. It is so easy to use. It is so helpful. I mean, really, we have. I mean, we have ZipRecruiter to thank for everything that's happened so far. Anything Eva has touched, that's ZipRecruiter's responsibility, or was their responsibility for sure. It's also something that I'm incredibly grateful for. So thank you. ZipRecruiter experience hiring speed and quality with ZipRecruiter, 4 out of 5 employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. We were one of those four out of five. And if you go to ZipRecruiter.com drink right now, you can try it for free. Again, that's ZipRecruiter.com Drink ZipRecruiter the smartest way to hire.

[Christine]

Thanks for selling your car to Carvana. Here's your check. Whoa.

[Em]

When did I get here?

[Christine]

What do you mean?

[Em]

I swear it was just moments ago that I accepted a great offer from Carvana online. I must have time traveled to the future. It was just moments ago. We do same day pickup.

[Christine]

Here's your check for that great offer.

[Em]

It is the future. It's.

[Christine]

It's the present and just the convenience of Carvana. Sorry to blow your mind.

[Em]

It's all good. Happens all the time.

[Christine]

Sell your car the convenient way to Carvana. Pick up. Times may vary and fees may apply. Hello, everyone. We made it against all odds. They said it couldn't be done. And here we are.

[Em]

It feels like that on my end. I had quite a travel palooza and not in a good way to get here. So I. I've been traveling a lot and I came in last night, so it feels like I crossed many deserts to be here. What about you?

[Christine]

Yeah, no, I feel like you've crossed many deserts to be here. I was also on the opposite coast. We switched places. I was on in California with beach to Sandy, and then I left my laptop there.

[Em]

You are so good at that.

[Christine]

Why wouldn't I? You know, in San Diego, the. Probably the farthest place I could have left it, or no, sorry, Sacramento, even farther probably. And they had to mail that back. And that cost me a cool, like 150 bucks to get that back to me. And yeah, it came back. So it crossed deserts with you as you cross deserts to get here. And we were like, moving things around and pushing dates, and things kept getting in the way and man, oh, man, it just feels like it took forever to get here. And I feel like I haven't seen you in, like, two months.

[Em]

I. It feels like that, but I mean, no. Three weeks, though, that it literally couldn't.

[Christine]

Have been, but it just feels like a very long time.

[Em]

No, the last time I saw you was on the beginning of my journeys in North Carolina. And I was in that hotel.

[Christine]

Yeah, the hotel. No wonder. So it feels like forever since you've even been in this spot where you are. Welcome home.

[Em]

Thank you.

[Christine]

How does it feel? Was it weird to smell your house? It's always weird to me when I smell my house after being gone for like a month.

[Em]

Well, the fact that it still smells like skunk certainly was the weird part.

[Christine]

Oh, no. Well, mine smelled like cat pee and I went, oh.

[Em]

Oh.

[Christine]

How long has this been going on?

[Em]

Well, I've been traveling for, like, fun, though. But you traveled, like, for work. How's tour going?

[Christine]

I'm just dead inside. No, it's been really fun. And I feel like California was cool because we got to see, you know, some people, like our editor Zoe, and it was, like, cool to. To. To reconnect with people and be in the sunshine for a while. So that was lovely. But man, oh, man, that time difference kicks me right in the butt when I come back. And, you know, I'm just getting back in the swing. It's been home for about seven days. Time to get back to normal and then leave again soon. But yeah, we're. We're trying to sell more tickets, people. You' doing great buying tickets. We have been having the best time. If you want to come to any of our shows, Omaha, plano all the rest, you can beach2sandy.com but yeah, it's been really, really fun. Just, you know, a lot of, a lot of traveling's hard.

[Em]

I. I like a lot of work. I like everything about traveling except the airports.

[Christine]

I'm just, it's fun. But then it's like when you're like, especially like, because we were going like city to city to city and it's like, God, after you take like two flights, like six flights within the state of California in like 48 hours, you're like, what the am I doing? Like, what is this life?

[Em]

I'm sure you're still living it, but the one thing that always made you and me and Eva grown all at the same time was when we just land somewhere and we're still in the airport. And then we would get a text on our phone saying, check in for your next flight and within 24 hours.

[Christine]

And it'd be like, congrats, you're about to fly. Yay. And I'm like, you. I just landed. I can't even take my seat belt off yet.

[Em]

I'm not even at baggage claim and I'm having to check in for my next flight now. Yeah.

[Christine]

Oh, it's so rude.

[Em]

Oh, man. Yeah, it's.

[Christine]

How are you? How is being home for real? I really long journey you were on.

[Em]

I. I just got home at like 2 in the morning.

[Christine]

Jesus.

[Em]

It's been a long, a long run there. Yesterday something was going on in Denver and that was my layover and so to get there sucked and then to leave sucked. There was delays non stop. I was supposed to be home by like 7 at night and I didn't get home until like 1 or 2 in the morning.

[Christine]

So on the way home.

[Em]

Yeah, anyway, that was kind of stinky, but I got to see the little puppy and I haven't seen him in three weeks. I feel like he thought I officially abandoned him.

[Christine]

What is he like you said, he's. Is he not a baby? He grew up. He.

[Em]

I, I feel like he took some sort of serum and is now a giant. I don't know what happened. His bark is lower. I'm like, did your voice fucking change? I feel like the house sitter just left in different dog here, but he like, instead of it's her. And I'm like, oh, my God.

[Christine]

He's grown into a man and he.

[Em]

Has less puppy skin and his waist is filling out. I. He used to be a little lean, mean fighting machine and now he's like a dog. So anyway, we it was very nice to see him last night. He's been extra cuddly, which is very nice. He's pulling a Geo. He's learning very quickly that a suitcase means you're leaving. So he does. He does not like the suitcase.

[Christine]

They pick up on that quickly, which.

[Em]

Is amazing because he acts pretty stupid everywhere else, but you know what a suitcase is. So, anyway, I'm excited to be home. Although I am probably very socially burnt out. I don't think I realize that I've been quote on for.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

Many weeks in a row now. I was with Allison's family. I was with friends. I was with my family. I'm exhausted. I can't wait to just take, like, a depression.

[Christine]

That's the other part of traveling. It's like. Even when it's fun, it's like you get home and you're beat.

[Em]

Yeah. Because you're also at the mercy of other people's time and everything.

[Christine]

Yeah. My least favorite thing to be.

[Em]

So, anyway, how. How are you being home? When do you head back out?

[Christine]

I don't know anymore. M. I just lose track.

[Em]

Just white knuckling it.

[Christine]

Huh? Help. I think we have Indianapolis and Detroit next, which I'm really excited about, because we can drive to those Midwest, you know, so that'll be fun.

[Em]

Very jealous of you going to Indianapolis. I haven't spent a lot of time of. A lot of time there. We had a show.

[Christine]

Anyone's ever sent that said that sentence out loud. No offense. Indianapolis.

[Em]

Well, you know, I'm trying to, like, explore. And the. The best I had was we had a show in Indianapolis on our last tour.

[Christine]

Like, really recently. Like, the last tour.

[Em]

Yeah, it was one of those ones. We flew in from another city that morning and did Indianapolis, and then we had to leave at, like, 6am to get the next flight, so we had, like, an afternoon there before the show.

[Christine]

I love you, Indy. It's really not the most exciting place. It's a cool town. I've been there a few times.

[Em]

After Cedar Rapids, anything's interest.

[Christine]

Okay. All right. Well, that's crazy. I don't. I wouldn't know. But you do. But. Yeah. So we're. Listen, we're not sold out. Come on down.

[Em]

When is it?

[Christine]

I don't know.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

Does that help? Anyway, I. But I want to say I'm. Oh, I know what I was gonna say. I forgot because we haven't talked in eight years, but when we hopped on in my head, you were gonna say, why do you drink this week? And I was gonna Say or. And what are you drinking? I was gonna say I'm drinking iced coffee because I just came back from the beyond.

[Em]

Like, I love that.

[Christine]

Bye. Bye. I was out of this planet and like, I don't usually take naps like that. I came back and I was like, where have I been, man?

[Em]

I love the interdimensional.

[Christine]

And I told consciousness, you have to tell M. You went to the beyond, you have to tell M. When we get on.

[Em]

You're so you're saying that because I say that, right?

[Christine]

Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

[Em]

I didn't know. I don't know if you knew that. That I use that verbiage too.

[Christine]

It was like the first thing that popped in my head and I went, oh, my God. I get it.

[Em]

It really feels like you've left. You've left Earth. You're in the beyond.

[Christine]

Yeah, I was doing like a yoga nidra. Have you heard of yoga nidra? Of course. It's my newest, like, metaphysical obsession. As always, I have one going at all times, at least a few. And it's.

[Em]

I don't know what that is.

[Christine]

It's this. Basically this. It's like deep or psychic rest they call it. So you're not unconscious. You're sort of in that like half asleep state. But it's. It's meant. And you're meant to stay awake, but it's sort of like, it's really good for your nervous system and all that good stuff and fatigue and that kind of thing. And I was like, well, there's no way I can really like stay awake during it. So I was like, oh, I'll just set an alarm and I'll listen to it. But I think I stayed awake for the full 45 minute thing. And I was like in that weird, like, almost. And Twilight said in the, in the, in the intro, like some people enter like astral plane because you're kind of in that. In between. And I'm like, I didn't. I don't think I did that, but I was like very half. And I remember laying there and going, oh, my God. I feel like my body is like recovering, like while I was conscious, but, like completely still. It was like my body was asleep, but my brain was awake, you know.

[Em]

Interesting. Did you like that? I feel like I would hate that.

[Christine]

Well, it was so calming, I think, because of like the way that they do the. The meditation. And it's just like a meditation so you don't really feel like anything's happening. But like about 45 minutes in, I was like, like Sometimes she'll say like, are you like make sure you're still awake or something. And I'm like, oh yeah, here I am. And I'm like, oh, I feel my body. And then after that my alarm went off and we had about 20 minutes before we recorded. So I was like, I'm gonna take a 15 minute real nap. And then I was like, good for you out there. And I don't know what happened, but I came back and I was like, I'm a new person.

[Em]

I'm so proud of you.

[Christine]

I got a huge coffee. I'm feeling great. Oh, oh, oh. And during it it was started to thunderstorm and I was imagining it. I woke up and I was like thunderstorming and I was like, this is the most perfect nap. I wish I could bottle it up and like bring it with me.

[Em]

Oh my God, I'm so jealous of you.

[Christine]

I would give anything really special. I. I just was very excited about it. So. So that's where I am today.

[Em]

Well done. I'm. I. I strive for that feeling. I want to chase that high for the rest of my life.

[Christine]

I know. Well, I'm going to start because I get it now.

[Em]

Well, the anytime. I will say the closest to hypnotized I've ever been is when a thunderstorm happens and I'm already in my REM cycle and I'm like, there's just, there's no coming back.

[Christine]

There's something about thunder while you're like about like in the process of actually falling unconscious that's well asleep. Let's say asleep.

[Em]

Not the big sleep, but like a medium sleep.

[Christine]

Yeah, that's just so soothing.

[Em]

I don't know if I. Sometimes I'll like play thunderstorm sounds and I'm trying to nap, but I have to like, I have to like warn people. Like I'm not going to be around for like four hours. Like, oh yeah, this is about to be sleep. Yeah, this is. No, there's no child's play nap. Well, I'm very excited for you. Did you dream at all or were you just fucking out of sight?

[Christine]

I was almost like in this. But I was like, it was like, I was like here, like present in my. And I was like, I'm healing my whole body.

[Em]

That's beautiful.

[Christine]

The weirdest thing, I mean, you guys, if you don't use yoga Nidra, you should try it. The ones on YouTube that I listen to have helped me fall asleep, have helped my insomnia tremendously. Because they say like even if you fall asleep during the. During it. It's like a really nice muscle relaxation. Then you fall asleep. And even then, like, it still has, of course, benefits, like sleep, which otherwise I don't get. So. Yeah, I'm. I'm really excited about this. I'm taking like a. You know, the app Insight Timer. It's like a meditation app. I'm doing like a five day yoga nidra thing. So we'll see anyway. But yeah, that's. That's where I am. So I'm a little bit like, in a fun spot. Yeah. But I know you're tired. You're. You're. You're probably beat.

[Em]

I don't think I know how tired I am yet. I think I'm still in a good.

[Christine]

Well, that's good spot.

[Em]

But when we stop recording that, I'm gonna. Oh, oh, my go. Like. Because I think this is the last thing that my body knows to hold on for.

[Christine]

It's like, get through the thunderstorm sounds.

[Em]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, I also today I have, like, I'm trying to make this like a big errand day because.

[Christine]

Is Al home with you, by the way, still?

[Em]

No.

[Christine]

Where is she?

[Em]

She's still in the Carolinas. She's been there since, like, I think April at this point. I don't fucking know anymore.

[Christine]

I thought she comes back.

[Em]

No. Why you. The whole thing was. I was. I was in North Carolina because I surprised her because it was like the halfway mark of her being gone.

[Christine]

Jesus. I know it was halfway.

[Em]

I know. So I saw her, but I saw her with her family. And then we went to Denver for our anniversary.

[Christine]

Happy belated.

[Em]

Thank you. And we saw. Wow. That's.

[Christine]

Oh, how was your thing?

[Em]

I. I don't even know if I should, like, bring it up here. I feel like I should. I kissed. Cause I'm worried about too spending too much time talking about it. I've been trying to get Allison and I tickets for years for us to go to this restaurant called Casa Bonita in Denver. And I always heard it's just like the weirdest restaurant in the world. And I was like, well, obviously we have to go. And then they opened up reservation slots. And one happened to be on our anniversary. And I didn't even know if I was gonna see Allison. I didn't have any plans yet. I just booked it. And then I was like, oh, shit, now we have to go to Denver.

[Christine]

Sometimes the world just has to bend to your will. You know what I mean?

[Em]

You know? Say that louder for everyone. That's not.

[Christine]

Listen, that Was beautiful. What I just said. Somebody Eva, write that down, please.

[Em]

Well, Caspanita is in fact the weirdest fucking place I've ever been.

[Christine]

Is it?

[Em]

It's this big. We can post pictures, maybe for social media, but it was this big pink castle building in a strip mall, by the way. Like, it's not even its own standalone place. It's like the first weird thing is it's in a strip mall next to, like, a laundromat or something, and it's a danpink castle.

[Christine]

Pictured it would be, like, on top of a mountain or something.

[Em]

I know. Well, you don't have to worry about a mountain because inside they have cliffs with cliff divers.

[Christine]

Excellent. What?

[Em]

During the show, they're like, it's a Mexican restaurant.

[Christine]

Sure.

[Em]

And then obviously, every so often, like, every, like, certain time slot, there's these, like, beautiful waterfalls and cliffs, and they have, like, a cliff diver show.

[Christine]

I feel like you called it, like a grown up Brain Force Cafe. Or am I imagining that?

[Em]

That feels right.

[Christine]

Maybe that's something else. But it does still fit.

[Em]

I think someone else called it, like, if Disneyland and Mexican restaurants had a baby or something.

[Christine]

Okay. All right.

[Em]

Because I. I actively tried to not learn anything about it because I was like, I want it to be weird for me, too. And so as soon as Allison and I got in there, they're like. And over here is the puppet show. And this is where the face painting and balloon artist is. And also there's a magic show on the bottom floor. And the puppet show, I gotta say, was fucking fantastic.

[Christine]

Yay.

[Em]

I love the puppet show. There's caves to crawl through. It's very. It's a weird place. And they've got stores, obviously. And then they have a fortune telling bird.

[Christine]

Cool. Why did I. Sorry, I didn't mean to jump over the fortune telling bird. But that's awesome.

[Em]

The food I ate. I will say food is like, not what you're there for. And also, I'm very blessed to live in Los Angeles where, like, I can be kind of critical of Mexican food. It was fine. But, like, you're not there for the food. You're there to, like, kind of get fed and then walk around and then.

[Christine]

Talk to the parrot that's gonna tell you all about your future.

[Em]

The only thing I really knew about it is that this place, like, there was like, an episode of south park that even, like, talked about how weird it is.

[Christine]

Oh, I think you mentioned that. Yeah.

[Em]

And then when I got there, the waitress was like, oh. Just so you know, like, the puppet show is like a little X rated. Don't forget who owns this place. And I went, who owns this place? And she's like, south Park. And I went, what? And apparently they own it. I was like, that's why they have a episode on it. Cross promotion.

[Christine]

Damn.

[Em]

Anyway, it's very weird. It was very worth it.

[Christine]

The fact that marketing worked on you, because I know you used to watch South Park. The fact that that marketing worked on you this many years later is amazing.

[Em]

And it's been mentioned in, like, it's canonically, biblically accurate, if you will, in Meow Wolf lore.

[Christine]

Oh, okay. Wow. So they're really hitting you in all the spots.

[Em]

Yeah, yeah. Which, by the way, there's also a Meow Wolf in Denver, so that's where else.

[Christine]

And I also went, now does south park own Meow Wolf too? Because this is starting to sound a little.

[Em]

That one's owned by Family Guy.

[Christine]

Oh, my gosh. I really believed you for a second. I was like, holy.

[Em]

Anyway, I've talked way too much, but I. It was a. It was a good anniversary. I'm glad that I made an impulse purchase and Allison just sighed and flew there, which was nice.

[Christine]

I love that. Yay. I told you that sometime. What did I say? Eva, sometimes the world has to bend to your will. That's right.

[Em]

Let's all chance it until it's true for all of us.

[Christine]

Please. That would be great. But yeah. Well, you know what? Sometimes we have extra long intros when things are, well, crazy.

[Em]

I'll. The last thing I'll say, though, is, isn't your anniversary soon? Or was it already isn't your anniversary in July?

[Christine]

Well, our wedding anniversary is October 13th.

[Em]

Oh, maybe that's what it is.

[Christine]

I just remember do have a technical secret wedding anniversary when we got, like, secret married the first time, which was the seventh. We never remember it.

[Em]

July 7th?

[Christine]

Yeah, I think so. Well, did you do anything for your.

[Em]

Anniversary since you don't know the date?

[Christine]

Totally. We had a great time. Let me see what we did.

[Em]

I'm sorry.

[Christine]

We went BlackBerry picking. We actually did do something cute that day.

[Em]

It's beautiful.

[Christine]

Who the hell knew?

[Em]

Were they good Blackberries?

[Christine]

They were amazing. And then Leona and I made a pie.

[Em]

That's great.

[Christine]

It was really cool and fun and I felt like. Like a old timey mom felt like.

[Em]

The Waltons on or Little House on the Prairie or something.

[Christine]

I did. Until I cut into it and it just poured everywhere and I went, oops, I've done it all wrong.

[Em]

Or Oops, I did it per usual.

[Christine]

Again, I did it exactly how I knew I would do it.

[Em]

Okay, sorry, that's enough of all that. I thank you for asking, but I knew it would be a kind of a thing. Money, please help.

[Christine]

We don't know what to do.

[Em]

We were trying to figure out how to start talking about Rocket Money just now, and all that came out of our mouths was, money, please. And it really. I mean, that's right. So we decided to stick with it.

[Christine]

They emailed me yesterday and they were like, oh, we cut down your security system bill again. And I'm like, how? How do you know? How do you do that?

[Em]

It's so worth it, guys. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings. So if you are like us, or at least like me, and are somehow shockingly financially illiterate, Rocket Manny, Rocket Money is going to figure it out for you. Don't worry it. You don't have to worry about a thing.

[Christine]

It's all in pretty colors. It tells you, like, what you're spending on. It gives you gentle reminders and nudges. Man, it is like a game changer for sure.

[Em]

If you've got a goal you'd like to save for, I mean, Rocket Money is going to analyze your accounts to find the best time each month to put money. Each. I mean, it's budgeting for you. I mean, it. Just please rock it.

[Christine]

Money, please.

[Em]

Money, please.

[Christine]

Rocket Money's 5 million users have saved a total of $500 million in canceled subscriptions, with members saving up to 740 a year when they use all the app's premium features.

[Em]

Cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money. Go to RocketMoney.com Drink today.

[Christine]

That's RocketMoney.com Drink RocketMoney.com Drink this podcast is sponsored by the crisp, refreshing, Angry Orchard. Listen, guys, there's a litany of things that we shouldn't get angry about, but let's be honest, sometimes it's hard not to be. You know, like, when Em and I are not in the room, I know it's hard to be like, ugh, where are they? Life is so bad when they're not around. And that's kind of how I feel when I don't have Angry Orchard. And my mother recently discovered that I keep it in the fridge, so I've had to move it to my mini fridge upstairs so that she doesn't Keep pilfering my goods.

[Em]

Well, the irony is that you would be angry that someone sold your Angry Orchard.

[Christine]

You're so right. And like, you know. You know what they say, don't get angry, get orchard. Is that what they say? I don't know.

[Em]

I sure hope so.

[Christine]

If not, Jack, cut that part out. But I gotta say, Angry Orchard is delicious. It's the number one hard cider in the country for a reason.

[Em]

Yeah, Angry Orchard has a bright, crisp apple flavor, just like biting into a fresh apple. I prefer mine covered in chocolate at the Denver Airport, but, you know, whatever. Anyway, grab an Angry Orchard today. Don't get angry, Get Orchard. Please drink responsibly. Ghost story for you. I think you're gonna like this one, Christine. This is an upscale seafood restaurant.

[Christine]

Oh, I already do. I already like it.

[Em]

In Halifax, Canada.

[Christine]

Oh, my favorite town. Wait, have I been there? To this restaurant?

[Em]

Oh, I don't. I was like, you've been to Halifax Pro.

[Christine]

Yeah, I do know that. But Blaze and I were there on our wedding anniversary and we went to a really nice seafood restaurant. But it was also Canadian Thanksgiving, so a lot of places were closed. So I'm not sure.

[Em]

Was it called Five Fishermen?

[Christine]

Let me see.

[Em]

That'd be so silly.

[Christine]

Yeah, I will be kind of freaked out. I didn't think that.

[Em]

It's like a. Like a four dollar sign kind of place.

[Christine]

Yeah, we went to like, a very fancy restaurant one of the nights. I'll ask Blaze. He might remember. But anyway, in the meantime, I don't think that's what it was called.

[Em]

Okay, well, Five Fishermen is the place. It's in Halifax and it's on Argyle Street. Fun fact for anyone who cares about that. If you're. If you happen to be listening to this on Argyle street, take a turn, maybe you'll see Five.

[Christine]

Maybe you'll get a expensive lobster tail.

[Em]

Well, so this place has a super interesting history. I would say just as interesting as the ghosts. The building itself is one of the older ones in Canada. I think it was built in 1817, and it was built by a church that was across the street. They were like, the kids need some education around here.

[Christine]

Oh, I thought it was. I thought you meant as a seafood restaurant.

[Em]

No, sorry.

[Christine]

The church was really expanding. Just like Family Guy in South Park. Like, I'm just such a sucker. Okay, I get it.

[Em]

They said all of Noah's fish came right here.

[Christine]

You know those shrimp that we saved?

[Em]

So. No, this. Sorry, this. They made a school.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Em]

It was built by the church across the street. Which, fun fact is the oldest building in Halifax.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Em]

And they were like, there's either there's no schools here or there's no religious enough schools here. So we're going to build a school across from the church. That way we can keep an eye on all these kids and make sure that they're learning the right things, the.

[Christine]

Right ways about God all the time.

[Em]

So they built a religious schoolhouse. It was a religious schoolhouse at first, and it opened in 1818 and it was known as the national school.

[Christine]

Ooh.

[Em]

Fun fact. It was the first school in all of Canada to offer free education.

[Christine]

Oh.

[Em]

And it something we still don't know here. I was gonna say 1818. USA.

[Christine]

Wow.

[Em]

That's how other people have been doing it. And because it was the first school in the country to do this, it is now a protected heritage site.

[Christine]

Oh, cool. Okay.

[Em]

After that, I guess the school got bigger and bigger and they just couldn't hold that many kids anymore. So it moved, and a woman ended up buying it and turned it into an art school. So the person who bought it, her name is Anna Leonowens, and she called it the Victoria School of Art and Design. And it was later renamed to basically enscad, which is the Nova Scotia School. Nova Scotia College of Art and Design. Beautiful. Fun fact about her, the person who built this art school on top of the schoolhouse, she was the governess to the children of the king of Is it Siam? And she'd go on to write about her experience as a governess there.

[Christine]

Whoa. I bet that was interesting.

[Em]

So interesting. It led to the musical the King and I. Aha.

[Christine]

Okay. I was like, I hope somebody did something with that story. Hey, why don't I coped it and write about. Idiot. Sorry, I'm talking about myself. Sorry, everybody.

[Em]

So the former governess and now inspiration behind the King and I.

[Christine]

She's so cool.

[Em]

She's the one who bought the schoolhouse, turn it into what would become enscad, and it's still a college today.

[Christine]

That's so cool.

[Em]

After it was the art school, or I guess it also got so big that it had to relocate. It was now empty again and for the third time. Need to be owned by somebody.

[Christine]

It's like a success story. Every time somebody goes in there, they have to move on because they get so big. So, you know, it's like, third time's a charm. Let's go.

[Em]

You're exactly right. It's because the next company that moved in still exists today.

[Christine]

See?

[Em]

And they moved in. It's very. I Don't know the right word is. But some sources. It doesn't totally add up what year this was bought, because I looked up when the art school opened, and I looked up when this company that I'm about to say opened, and it's. They, like, overlap each other. So I don't know. Oh, I don't know the years. Just know that they both happened at some point, but. So it was a schoolhouse then. It was. Which, like, they all also have a weird, like, fun fact to them. It's like it was the first free education in Canada. Schoolhouse.

[Christine]

This is a special building, kind of.

[Em]

Like, built of, like, very legitimate art and design college to this day. Oh, where? Well, I can't tell by the lobster if it's from there.

[Christine]

I know, but isn't it pretty?

[Em]

It's beautiful. And so is Blaze's chest and his half zip. His quarter zip loves a quarter zip.

[Christine]

And that giant bottle of wine I ordered.

[Em]

Well, I know who you took home that night. The bottle of wine.

[Christine]

Okay. But now I have to figure out where it is. Oh, my God. Okay, it's starting to look like it's close. It's at the St. Paul's Anglican Church.

[Em]

That's this. That's the church that built the school across the street that becomes this restaurant.

[Christine]

Shut up. Are you serious?

[Em]

Yes. St. Paul's Anglican Church is the one who created the schoolhouse because it was across the street.

[Christine]

Blaze said, I think it's a five Fisherman, because that has a lot of dollar signs. And I remember it was expensive. Like, I didn't say the name of it. I just said, what's the restaurant? And he said, I have no idea. I'm looking on Google Maps. And he said, it looks like maybe the five fisherme. And that's crazy. Well, the fact that you brought up my anniversary right before that, that is very weird. Hey, here's a picture of me. Well, here's a picture of my fucking dinner that I remember being like, we have to save up money for the most expensive night because this was going to be pricey as fuck.

[Em]

What year was that?

[Christine]

It was 2019, so it was our first wedding anniversary. Oh, well.

[Em]

Yeah. That is very.

[Christine]

We did it big. Well, we only went to Halifax because Blaze had a conference at the conference center. So I spent all day wandering around shopping for you.

[Em]

Yeah, I still own all of it.

[Christine]

I, like, bought you an insane amount of. And then at night, I would make. And then I would spend all day making plans to where to eat and what ghost tour to do that night of Course. And yeah, so that's. That's hilarious.

[Em]

Yeah, the way that you said. And I didn't even say St. Paul's Anglican Church. I just said.

[Christine]

I was like. That's weird.

[Em]

That's so wild.

[Christine]

Okay. Wow. That's crazy. Okay, I'm telling Blaze right now that m is. I didn't even know it was haunted. We had no idea.

[Em]

One of the most haunted places in Nova Scotia.

[Christine]

This is crazy. Okay, well, we've. Blaze and I've been trying to come up with some sort of excuse to go back to Halifax, so.

[Em]

Okay, we'll go be there.

[Christine]

Maybe this is it.

[Em]

You just have to really eat that lobster again.

[Christine]

I'm. I honestly, I'd pay big bucks for that.

[Em]

Actually, I know a reason that you can make an excuse to go back there. I'll. I'm gonna tell me. I'm tell you later in this.

[Christine]

Oh, great, great, great.

[Em]

Okay. So it was a schoolhouse. It was the art school. And then the next successful business that came out of that is it was bought by Snow and Company Undertakers.

[Christine]

No wonder I was drawn to this fucking place.

[Em]

They were the city's very first mortuary.

[Christine]

Wow.

[Em]

It still exists again, at a different location like everything else seems to, I guess. And now it is called the J A Snow Funeral Home. And I think now it's being ran by its fifth generation of Snow &.

[Christine]

Company, the fourth generation CO undertakers. A sign from, like, the old timey Snow and Co Undertakers would be so insane.

[Em]

Yeah, I say it's probably ran by the fifth generation because the fourth generation of J A. Snow actually died in 2020. I looked up his obituary, of course, his funeral was held at Snow and Company.

[Christine]

Why not?

[Em]

Apparently he was called. His name was J A Snow. I guess the fourth. I'm assuming they called him Snowy. Oh, and in his obituary, it said that Snowy liked sailing, curling, golfing, his morning coffee, a daily game of backgammon, and he made a mean eggs Benedict.

[Christine]

Oh, hey, this sounds like a strong fella.

[Em]

He looked like a. He was a burly. A good man.

[Christine]

Yeah. Like it?

[Em]

I like it. Another fun fact about Snow and Co Undertaker, which, by the way, I'm aware it's called, like, JNA Snow Funeral Home. Snow and Co should have. It should have stayed that.

[Christine]

That's the good, like, nickname. That's like, what we call it if, like, you know, you know 100%.

[Em]

Well, snow and Co Undertaker. They were the funeral parlor that many of the bodies for two major disasters in Halifax history had you wanted.

[Christine]

Well, Blaze. Blaze did just text me. Our waiter said it was haunted. I'm like, clearly, I don't remember that. I was probably halfway through my bottle of wine. Well, I don't want him. I don't want to spoil it. But he did say something after that that I do now recall. Should I. Should I read it?

[Em]

Sure.

[Christine]

He said it was above or next to where all the unclaimed bodies from the Titanic went. I'm like, blaze has a. No wonder Leona remembers literally everything I've ever said to her and can, like, use it against me. Because Blaze also. Creepy memory. Yeah.

[Em]

Encyclopedic.

[Christine]

It's honestly upsetting sometimes.

[Em]

Well, yeah. So one of the reasons it was really haunted is because it held all of the Titanic bodies.

[Christine]

Jesus Lord. I mean, that makes sense. Realizing it's a funeral home or. Yeah, that's a mortuary. Wow. Wow. Oh, that gave me shivers, dude.

[Em]

So I'm gonna talk about the Titanic real quick. Not now. Everyone knows the real quick.

[Christine]

We're just gonna, like, real quick talk about the Titanic. I was talking about one ever.

[Em]

The funeral history of Halifax amidst the Titanic.

[Christine]

I have been wanting someone to tell me this again since I did that one ghost tour in Halifax years ago.

[Em]

When I was covering, when I was looking this up and everything, I was like, this is, like, right up Christine's alley.

[Christine]

I can't wait. And I don't even, really, like, care. I mean, I don't. I. I don't care. I'm not, like, a Titanic head. I don't even think I ever finished a movie. I just. When I went to Halifax, I didn't know this about Halifax, and I think it blew my mind.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

And so I would love to hear it again.

[Em]

Well, the Titanic happened. Boom. That's what happened.

[Christine]

And then we go big iceberg, etc.

[Em]

This was in 1912, in case anyone forgot the year. And this funeral parlor was where the bodies were brought before either going to their families for whatever they wanted to do next or to a cemetery if those bodies unclaimed. And just so you know, the numbers suggest that only around, like, 60 people got to go back to their families and about 130 that were unclaimed. And this is the ones that went to the funeral parlor. There were, like, 150 or something that ended up being buried at sea because they were too unrecognizable, and no amount of mortuary services could have helped them. So there was no. Like, they weren't even willing to try to embalm or get a.

[Christine]

Imagine having to Be on the team to decide things like that. Like, that's so traumatizing to be like, who gets what's who. Who's worth bringing back and finding their fam. Oh, that's so sad.

[Em]

And to know there's like 100 people in like, the Halifax harbor that they just had to left. Had to leave there. The funeral parlor was also responsible during rescue operations to preserve the bodies ASAP. And when. I mean, ASAP, I mean, like, Mr. Snow and company, they literally got on boats with rescue teams to find bodies, pull them out of the water, and immediately start embalming them. So, okay, so Snow and company literally were the people saying, we can't help this one, like, put him back in the water. Like, they were the ones making those decisions.

[Christine]

Like you just said, geez, okay, wow.

[Em]

And I don't know who j A. Snow the first was, but this guy, like, he must have been in a mob or something because he had connections all around in the funeral world.

[Christine]

I guess if you're the. If you're the funeral director, you probably do kind of start to know everyone.

[Em]

He had, and they were the first mortuary in the city. But he must have been part of like, a word of funeral homes all around Canada, because when he got the call, the, like, we want you to be like, the. The funeral home handling all these bodies that are coming in by the hundreds. J A. Snow called in help from every undertaker, Every undertaker in three provinces. And it was Nova Scotia, Newfoundland, and Prince Edward Island, I think. And over 40 undertakers all came from where they ever they live to volunteer. And they had this massive operation. Mr. Snow also called favors from casket manufacturers to stay late and make more coffins. He called undertakers if they had extra hearses, and like 30 hearses from around Canada all came to help. He also made sure that the coroners were on site, like on the docks, issuing immediate death certificates and burial permits so families could just take their body and immediately bury it wherever they wanted.

[Christine]

I'm glad they were so, like, conscientious about actually doing the process of death certificates and trying their best to connect their bodies with the right family.

[Em]

I mean, like, all the way down to, like, he made sure every volunteer undertaker, like, had smelling salts in case, like, people recognizing the their family members, like, need we're gonna pass out from, like, I mean, they had thought of everything.

[Christine]

Geez. Wow.

[Em]

He apparently rented out a curling rink. Can't get more Canadian than that.

[Christine]

Sure.

[Em]

And it was like, right next to the dock, I guess. And he turned it into A temporary travel portable morgue or mortuary so that all of the undertakers that were volunteering could all provide services right on the water. As soon as they found the body, they immediately started doing all this stuff.

[Christine]

Geez.

[Em]

One source called this temporary morgue and the curling rink, it must have been on the dock, like literally on the dock. So it was called the largest floating embalming facility on earth.

[Christine]

Jesus.

[Em]

And they were out on what by.

[Christine]

Ripley's Believe it or Not. Everyone was like, ripley, it's not like it's too soon. We're not here for that right now.

[Em]

Big R. Relax.

[Christine]

You know, we know you're. We want to jump in here, but you'll have your moment.

[Em]

Well, they were all out on the boats looking for bodies. They set up coffins and embalming stations at the port to work as soon as possible. Which it was very helpful that the bodies were in freezing cold water. Yeah. So a lot of them were frozen and then they could immediately work. But they were even pulling ice water out of the water to keep them frozen once they got on the dock. I mean, the services sounded so detailed. I will say. I don't know how true this is, but one source said that only the first class passengers got immediate care.

[Christine]

And then that's what we learned as well.

[Em]

Okay. And then all the second and third class passengers had to like, be brought to his mortuary further down the road to be taken care of.

[Christine]

Well, and I also remember hearing that, I wouldn't say a reason for it, but one of the kind of ancillary reasons for that is that a lot of people who were not first class passengers, their families wouldn't have even been able to make it up to Halifax to claim the body. Because if they come from an impoverished family or, you know, somewhere way rural out somewhere, you know, they were like, well, no one's going to come get the body.

[Em]

So that, that makes sense because one of the sources I saw said that a lot of third class passengers, they ended up just telling them to just leave them at sea.

[Christine]

Yeah. Because they couldn't. I mean, they couldn't pay to go get them or any. You know, it's just sad.

[Em]

Two of the bodies that, that they did find and that were immediately operated on or I don't know the right word is embalmed. Processed were John Jacob Astor iv, who is. Was apparently the richest guy on the Titanic.

[Christine]

I know all about that guy. He has a lot of weird fun facts. Yeah.

[Em]

One day I'll just do a whole episode on him.

[Christine]

I Guess he's a weirdo. Yeah. You should really.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

And then Charles Hayes, who was the president of Grand Trunk Railway, he kept getting a shout out, but they were two very rich people, I guess. Yeah. And Snow and co worked on that.

[Christine]

Aster is like. He's. Astoria is named after him. He like, like owned the city of New York or something. He basically, like, he looked at Astoria, which is now part of Queens, and he was like, I want that. And they just like gave it to him like that. That's who he was. Just like this ultra wealthy guy.

[Em]

That's what I say about every Rainforest cafe I run into. Give it to me. Here's a blank check. Write a number.

[Christine]

They're like, this guy bounced.

[Em]

Anyway, so sorry. Hank's drinking. Can you hear okay? Good.

[Christine]

I'm trying, though.

[Em]

It sounds like this.

[Christine]

Oh, God. Thanks.

[Em]

I started doing this thing with him where if I grab his mouth the right way and shake his head around, he just lets his tongue kind of hang out. And then all of a sudden you just hear weird, like wet sloshing in his mouth.

[Christine]

He's such a freak.

[Em]

He like doesn't. You would. Like, he doesn't. He just let. Loosens all the bushes and everything just kind of sloshes around there.

[Christine]

Maybe that's good for his little jaw.

[Em]

Maybe it's nice to know he gives up when I'm around.

[Christine]

Yeah, that's really nice.

[Em]

Okay. So anyway, the Titanic was the first major disaster that Snow and company handled when they were operating in this building.

[Christine]

I mean, shocking they had to handle any major. An international disaster to begin with, but.

[Em]

Or that there was more to come.

[Christine]

You'd think the fact that it's the first one, I'm like, what happened next? I don't even know. Oh, I remember.

[Em]

You want to tell? No, because you don't remember.

[Christine]

Well. Okay. Okay. This explosion of a. I think a naval ship. Yeah.

[Em]

Well done, Christine. Wow.

[Christine]

I tell you what it really is. Do you know why it does? Because anytime someone says the word Halifax around Blaze and me, we go into our insane spiel about, like, the city of Halifax, it's the coolest place on the planet, and we tell all about it. We're just obsessed with it. And I like. You're obsessed with it. Like you have been since way before I was. And it's just a really cool town. So. Yeah, I do remember because we talked a lot about. On the ghost hunts and stuff. The ghost tour. Sorry, they talked about the. The explosion and stuff.

[Em]

Yeah. I. I'm glad we both Love Halifax so much because it's really random.

[Christine]

Like, I, we only went for Blaze's weird medical conference. Like, I don't think I ever would have expected my first time in Canada to be Halifax, of all places. Did you know has its own time zone. It's a farthest east time zone, even farther than Maine.

[Em]

I'm not, I didn't know that. But nothing surprises me when it's cool and it involves Halifax. I'm just like, agreed.

[Christine]

Good point, good point.

[Em]

If you told me, did you know that the grass is made of just like scraps of chocolate? I'd be like, great. So, yes, there was five years after the Titanic, which five years later, imagine.

[Christine]

Having like, first of all, I did not know it was five years later. That's like from now to Covid. Do you realize that that's like really like in perspective.

[Em]

Imagine working at like the first of its kind mortuary. Like you're just trying to figure out your small business, the Titanic. You are solely responsible for every dead body in the town where all the dead bodies showed up, up. And everyone's finally coming down from that. And then there's a big ass explosion that we're talking about 100 years later.

[Christine]

Jesus.

[Em]

So 1917, there's the Halifax explosion. That's exactly what it's called. There were two World War I warships. They collided into each other. One of them was carrying several explosives, inflammable chemicals. The explosion was so intense that, quote, almost all of the northern part of Halifax was destroyed. The blast killed almost 2,000 people. It injured 9,000. It blinded 200. And the funeral parlor, they rolled up their sleeves and they went, all right, back to work.

[Christine]

Here we go.

[Em]

Apparently, even though the funeral parlor was not near the explosion, the impact rolled through the town and even the funeral parlor's windows shattered from the blast.

[Christine]

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

[Em]

And they went, well, there's a lot of shattered glass and there's about to be a lot of bodies in here too. So let's just get at it, sweep.

[Christine]

It up and prep, prep the embalming.

[Em]

Fluid onto the next one. So they handled most, if not all of the bodies that needed services. They, they were performing upwards of 40 funerals a day just to get through them. I mean, two, almost 2,000 deaths. Like, that's, that's a lot of funerals time.

[Christine]

Right? So you're not, it's not like staggered. I mean, not that it's better if it's staggered like an illness or like a. But. But just at the one time, I mean, that's shocking.

[Em]

And I don't know anything about, like, funeral policy or anything, but I imagine you have to have a funeral within a certain window before there's like. Like it's like a health violation or something.

[Christine]

I think there are. I think there are different ways.

[Em]

I don't.

[Christine]

I don't know. I think that, like, if it's cremation.

[Em]

It'S different or whatever, but if it's like a. A body, like, how long can you preserve a body? You know, especially in 1917.

[Christine]

Well, maybe not back then. I think several. A couple days, I think.

[Em]

But if there's 2, 000 deaths and you're doing 40 funerals a day, that's still like 50 days later someone's getting a funeral. Yeah.

[Christine]

You'd have to be like, speed speeding through.

[Em]

Boy. So there were. I'm gonna send you a picture. I don't know if we're allowed to post it or not. We're still trying to figure out the. Right. Yeah.

[Christine]

So, folks, some people have been asking about, like, why we don't post photos on. About the stories on Instagram anymore. It's because we're trying to be more cautious about copyright, and we've gotten some people reaching out, saying, like, hey, this image is copyrighted, like, from way ages back. So we're still working on that. It's not intentional. We're just trying to be as.

[Em]

We would like to not have any troubles.

[Christine]

So, yeah, we don't want any more trouble. Okay.

[Em]

So now that we're trying to be more about that, if for some reason we can't show it, I encourage you to Google Halifax Explosion Funeral Parlor or, like, coffins. Because the picture I'm going to show Christine now is a picture when they were trying to do, like, 40 funerals a day. There were so many coffins that they were starting to stack up outside because they could. They didn't have enough room inside to store all the bodies.

[Christine]

Oh, my God. There is a building here just about. It's like the.

[Em]

That's where you ate lobster, by the way.

[Christine]

Oh, my God. Yeah. This is wild. They are stacking up and, like, you.

[Em]

Can see a person standing in front of it. Like, they're taller than a person.

[Christine]

Yep. The stacks are taller than a person. Just lined up down this, like, down the street, down the street.

[Em]

Like, the entire block is just stacks and stacks of coffee.

[Christine]

That's wild.

[Em]

So it was. I mean, I don't know. Obviously you can't compare which one's worse, but imagine having the headache of The Titanic and then being like, at least nothing like that should ever happen again. And now you literally have coffins stacking across the street because you're trying to.

[Christine]

Get five years later.

[Em]

So anyway, the. The funeral parlor, they. I think after those two explosions or two. Two tragedies. Imagine like the pr though, of like, look what we can handle, you know? So they ended up getting so big that they still exist to this day, just at a different site. They moved out. And in 1975, flash forward 1975, it became the five fishermen.

[Christine]

It's been around since 75.

[Em]

Wow. And the part that I was saying, why maybe you would want to go back with Blaze, if you're looking for a reason, is because I think on the anniversary of the Titanic, each year, they have a menu, a different menu than usual, where it's the menu of what people ate on the Titanic.

[Christine]

Oh, that's dark. Wow. Like the last meal. Or. Or just like one of the meals.

[Em]

Like, like they. They were able to preserve a menu. And to know.

[Christine]

I thought it was like some weird, like, last meal thing, but it's so. It's like a menu from the. That's so cool.

[Em]

I. I thought originally it was like just a menu. You could have any. Any day. But then I saw a newscast about it, and I think it's like an event, like a limited time event every year.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Em]

And then it's. It's.

[Christine]

I don't recall that.

[Em]

Let me see. I have a picture. It's very blurry, but I found it on a blog. This is the. This is the menu. So it says Titanic set menu from April 13th to April 16th. First course, second course, third course, fourth course, dessert.

[Christine]

Wow.

[Em]

The dessert was on. On the Titanic. Apparently everyone was Waldorf pudding with peach compote and a chartreuse sauce and French ice cream.

[Christine]

Chartreuse sauce is questionable.

[Em]

The restaurant the is Waldorf pudding.

[Christine]

Oh, you don't know. It's like that weird. It's like walnuts and. Hold on. It's like a Waldorf salad. I'm assuming it's the same thing.

[Em]

Just no lettuce.

[Christine]

I hope not. Can you imagine? Okay. Yeah. So it is from the Waldorf Hotel. Same as Waldorf. It looks horrid. Sorry. It looks horrid.

[Em]

What's in a wall door?

[Christine]

They're not even telling me what it's in. Oh, my God. Literally, the Wikipedia is just about the Titanic.

[Em]

Oh, my God.

[Christine]

Oh. They don't know what it is. It was on the Titanic menu, but nobody really knows what it is. That's so cool.

[Em]

That is fun. That is.

[Christine]

Several speculated recipes using apples, walnuts, and raisins. Like, I'm like, you don't know what it is. It has walnuts. I don't know where I came up with that. There's no evidence that any of those ingredients were used in the Waldorf pudding. The chefs at the Waldorf Hotel had never heard of Waldorf pudding around the time of the sinking of the Titanic.

[Em]

It must have been like there was a Mr. Waldorf on board or something. And they, I don't know, know. Or like, maybe it was like the chef's grandmother's recipe.

[Christine]

Wait, look at this. A menu from Celebrity Cruises describes Waldorf Waldorf pudding served on the RMS Olympic in 1914 as a creamy vanilla pudding flavored with a hint of nutmeg, diced apples, and sultana grapes. I mean, that sounds yummy.

[Em]

It does sound good.

[Christine]

Nutmeg, vanilla pudding, you know, better than all the other raisins.

[Em]

And if you switch out the grapes for Snickers bars, then you've got, like, something from the Midwest. Isn't that.

[Christine]

Then you've got, like, a mudslide Snickers.

[Em]

Pie or apple pie.

[Christine]

I love a Snickers pie. Midwest, I think it's called Snickers pie.

[Em]

It's literally like Snickers and green apples in vanilla pudding. Yeah. Snickers salad. Snicker salad.

[Christine]

What if that was on the Titanic? What if it was just a Snicker salad and they didn't have the right word?

[Em]

It's like that trend of, like, what would make a Victorian child? It's like, what would make her head.

[Christine]

Expensive on the spot? Yeah.

[Em]

First of all, she'd be like, what is a salad? And second of all, why is it made of candy bars?

[Christine]

And why did you throw the lettuce on the floor and go, ew?

[Em]

Okay, that's so, that's the history. Isn't that, like, so fascinating all the.

[Christine]

I mean, honestly, I love it. I, I, I could hear about that, that stuff all day. I find it deeply fascinating.

[Em]

So on to the ghosts. The first thing I'm going to say is that there's a manager at the five fishermen called the. Not the, the m. Sht. Actually go. Follow me.

[Christine]

I was like, what?

[Em]

There's a manager called Wallace the King and I, Wallace Fraser. And there's a quote from him that I really like about the ghosts. He says, we say, you can stay late, but never alone. Furniture will slide across the floor, glasses will fly off the shelves. Cutlery moves itself, sinks Turn on and off. Doors open and close. You hear footsteps. You hear tapping and knocking. A bunch of times. You hear. You feel cold drafts when there shouldn't be any. People have been grabbed, they've been touched. People see apparitions. People have felt like something's walking through them. One source actually told me about how someone saw a solid person walk through her.

[Christine]

Oh. What? Oh, do they feel it?

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Yuck.

[Em]

People hear their name whispered, and then if they're alone, they'll hear their name fully called out from the other side of the room.

[Christine]

Yuck.

[Em]

One server on a busy night kept getting tapped on the shoulder like someone was trying to distract him from putting in orders.

[Christine]

How irritating, by the way.

[Em]

Well, apparently, suddenly he went, what? Like, what do you want? And then turned around.

[Christine]

Karen. Oh.

[Em]

And would turn around and there was nothing there. And one room next to the salad bar. Speaking of salads, it's called the captain's quarters. This private room. I guess it's like if you want to rent out a private room, maybe when it's empty, people will hear someone arguing in there. Like a couple. But the words are always too muffled to figure out what they're saying. I hate that.

[Christine]

Oh, I hate that, too.

[Em]

I love gossip. But if I can't hear the words, might as well not be talking.

[Christine]

They're basically taunting you. Like, nice try.

[Em]

It's exactly right. And yeah, if nobody's in the room, you just hear yelling, which is so weird.

[Christine]

That's creepy.

[Em]

People have sworn that they've seen someone in that room during closing, and it's. There's nobody in the restaurant except them. You'll see people walk into the room, and even though there's no exit, when they go in, they've somehow left the room. So they go in and then vanish. Staff have also watched the swinging doors into the kitchen swing themselves open and closed. And, like, apparently, you'll hear them open when you turn around. The doors are still, like, swinging. The most common apparitions here are misty bodies with vague facial features so you can't decipher who they are.

[Christine]

Oh, geez, I hate that. That's Titanic, maybe, actually.

[Em]

I don't know.

[Christine]

Right. Like, people trying to identify who everyone is. I don't know.

[Em]

That's a. That's very symbolic.

[Christine]

That. Kind of foggy. Right? It feels like a little too metaphorical. I don't know how ghosts. How poetic ghosts are, but if you.

[Em]

Were an author, that would.

[Christine]

Right.

[Em]

Absolutely be it.

[Christine]

And we are.

[Em]

We are. Well, technically speaking, I like. You know, what's so funny. I always forget that we wrote books.

[Christine]

I know. Because it feels like we shouldn't have. Because we feels like. What do you call it? What's the word that I can't even think of?

[Em]

I don't know. I can't think of it either.

[Christine]

When you feel like you're incompetent.

[Em]

Imposter syndrome.

[Christine]

Imposter syndrome. That's the one. Yeah.

[Em]

I just went to a bookstore and somebody with my friend who I. She's like a kind of an. A friend of a friend. We were all in a group. She didn't know that I had written a book, so I like, never mentioned it. And she went, you. If you. You wrote a book. And I totally forgot for a second. I went. I went. I don't know what I would write a book about. I literally, totally forgot.

[Christine]

You are insane. And this is literally, this is. Yeah, it's shocking that a book even got finished, let alone two of them. I know. We're like. We did what?

[Em]

Every time I see one in a store, I go, oh, my God, I forgot. Like, it's a fun little treat. Yeah, I like, I get like starstruck by myself.

[Christine]

I do too.

[Em]

The. Okay, the apparitions. Yeah. I don't know if they're. Why they're so vague, but apparently they're hard to decipher. But you can tell there's like a face in it.

[Christine]

But you know, to go with the, like the muffled voices, you know. That's creepy too.

[Em]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. All of it's hard to decipher. That's very interesting.

[Christine]

Weird.

[Em]

The apparitions will sometimes be standing in front of you. Other times they'll move towards you. I guess there was a particular story where this waitress was about to go upstairs and then saw this like man shaped mist walking towards her. And she went, never mind. And she didn't go upstairs. Sometimes they have been described as having a darker, grayer mist underneath them, floating up out of the floor. Floor.

[Christine]

Oh my God. So like a drop shadow.

[Em]

It's like they make their own floor. That's fun.

[Christine]

That's like super cool.

[Em]

I. I do.

[Christine]

Stylish, actually.

[Em]

It's like they're like, I wouldn't dare touch that floor. I gotta make my own. One server, there was a woman and her sister and one of them had a kid. They all went to the restaurant, knew it was haunted. The server said mainly the third floor is what's haunted and let them go explore.

[Christine]

Oh, God.

[Em]

As soon as they wanted to, they. As soon as they got up There. They wanted to get the out. Apparently, this woman said that she felt a weird vibration or humming in the halls. And as she got farther away from the stairs and the lobby, it got stronger and louder.

[Christine]

Oh, boy.

[Em]

She said she felt dread. She felt very unwelcome. She felt sick to her stomach, and she was trying to, like, keep it together and be brave for her nephew. So she wanted to take a picture, but she was too afraid to take a picture in the direction of the humming, so she just took a picture somewhere else. But as her finger pressed the shutter button, she heard her nephew in the bathroom scream and then run out of the bathroom. And apparently, as soon as she pressed the button, a stalled door, like, slammed shut on him. Ah.

[Christine]

What? So weird.

[Em]

It's just weird because of the timing, too. It's like.

[Christine]

Anyways, what does it mean? What does it mean?

[Em]

Eventually, her sister, the. The kid's mom, went up there to explore herself, and she had the exact same feelings of, like, I did not like that. That was crazy. I had the same intense uneasiness, but also felt like she needed to now, like, keep her son close and, like, protect him. And she didn't know what that was about. But the server later told them. Oh, I can't go upstairs by myself without feeling sick to my stomach. There's a rumor that two spirits up there are a mom and child trying to find each other, but a third spirit keeps them apart.

[Christine]

Hey. What? That's so dark.

[Em]

Yeah. And that little girl comes back, by the way. She's apparently, like. They think she might be one of the kids from the Titanic.

[Christine]

That's so sad.

[Em]

Other people have seen this girl on the third floor. They've seen her on the staircase. They've also heard a woman weeping. So maybe that's how the rumor started that they're looking for each other. One server in particular has walked into the women's bathroom and saw the little girl, and she was. She had glowing light all around her, and she just stood there and stared at her, and she looked very, very sad. She, like, really emphasized how sad this girl looked.

[Christine]

It's really awful.

[Em]

There have also been EVPs in that same bathroom of the child talking and crying and playing. So she's very active. Apparently, in this bathroom, people have seen a woman staring at them in the mirrors.

[Christine]

No. Okay. No.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Back to the stuff. Honestly, that one probably. That's like, where I'm like, I would not. You could not pay me to do.

[Em]

I would just take the mirrors now. What restaurant needs mirrors?

[Christine]

I would literally just Just go into a catatonic state and probably not speak for a few days. I would scare the absolute out of me.

[Em]

How many mirrors need to be in a room for you to notice that there's mirrors in the room?

[Christine]

A few.

[Em]

Because I. And while I think about it, I'm oblivious.

[Christine]

I'm very oblivious, I think, to things like that.

[Em]

There's a lot of restaurants I go into that have zero mirrors, and it's never affected me. When would it affect me? When I. When there's too many, like, currently.

[Christine]

Well, if they're in the bathroom, how the hell are you? Oh, is it not in the bathroom? Oh, I thought this was all in the bathroom.

[Em]

Some of it was, but now that this woman who just shows up in mirrors, it's just.

[Christine]

That's just in general. Mirrors.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Take those down.

[Em]

Yeah, like, no one cares. Just put more decorations up. Anyway, so after the mirrors have been cleaned, either you'll see the woman. Sometimes children's handprints will show up in the mirror. And staff also hear heavy breathing in empty corners. When they're closing up up, they see shadows darting across the walls. And the basement lights will turn themselves off when you're on the other side of the room from the switch.

[Christine]

Jesus.

[Em]

In the staff locker area, the lockers will slam themselves shut while you're changing. So imagine you, like, don't have a shirt on, and now a locker is just slamming next to you, and then.

[Christine]

The lights turn off across the room, and you have to figure out how to get there in the dark like that.

[Em]

Then you're naked and you have to.

[Christine]

Walk like this, and you're, like, holding. Like you're covering yourself, like. I know. Forget it. I think I would just, again, sit down and be like, cool, I'm done. I give a.

[Em]

You win.

[Christine]

You win.

[Em]

Here's a creepy one. And maybe you know something about this that I don't. The clocks on the walls in different rooms have all stopped at the same time. Oh. Literally the same time. Which happens to be 11:43.

[Christine]

Okay. I'm wondering if that was when that explosion happened, but I don't know. I mean, I'm just kind of making that up. Was the Halifax explosion. Oh, no. 904am so I'm not sure then.

[Em]

Apparently no one can figure it out. So I imagine people have Googled all the time.

[Christine]

Oh, I thought this was, like, something you already knew the answer to. Okay.

[Em]

No, I don't. Apparently Nobody knows what 1143 means, but you've got a weird gut feeling about stuff.

[Christine]

Well, not today.

[Em]

I guess after one table of customers, they're all sitting there, they heard this big crash upstairs and they had staff go look because you're like, what the was that? Apparently there was a whole table that was set for customers that was empty. But the tables, chairs had knocked themselves over and the silverware had all flown off the table. It was all scattered across the room.

[Christine]

Ew.

[Em]

Another time, an employee was by himself and had to set up the salad bar. We keep mentioning salad.

[Christine]

Which by the way, the salad bar. I didn't even remember there being a.

[Em]

Salad bar because you had your eyes on lobster friend.

[Christine]

I mean, I had other plans. That's right.

[Em]

It's like if there's a filet mignon in front of me and someone says, like, oh, did you see that clown on a unicycle go by juggling fire? I'd be like, no, I was busy.

[Christine]

No wonder I didn't see the lady in the mirror and all that other. I was busy.

[Em]

Their food has to be good here to distract you from all the scary.

[Christine]

Well, but also like, what four dollar sign has a salad bar that feels like a Kroger or something? But maybe.

[Em]

I guess so.

[Christine]

But didn't it Waldorf salad bar bar. Now that a fancy salad bar.

[Em]

I guess if it's from 75. I feel like salad bars were big.

[Christine]

Oh, maybe back then. Yeah, back then. I feel like they would put jello on everything and like be like, it's a salad.

[Em]

Yeah, Snickers.

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah, there.

[Em]

So anyway, this guy comes in, it's three o'. Clock. Apparently the restaurant opens at five, so nobody was there. But it's also three o' clock witching hour, just three in the afternoon. And he's setting up up by the salad bar, which happens to be next to the captain's quarters, where people hear all the yelling. While he's putting the salad bar together, he hears a huge crash again. And when he looks over to the side, he sees that a stack of ashtrays that haven't been put out yet one had thrown itself onto the ground and shattered. I think it shattered. It had thrown itself to the ground. He bent down to pick it up, and when he stood up, he happened to make eye contact with the mirror in front of him. And he saw an old tall man with long gray hair and a vintage black coat walking down the hallway.

[Christine]

What the.

[Em]

And he was supposed to be alone. And now he sees someone walking away from the room behind him.

[Christine]

At least walking away.

[Em]

I know. Can you imagine approaching you? God, years later, apparently. Also at 3pm there was another employee who saw a customer, but he was on the phone. So he was like, I'll be right with you in a second, but saw this guy even though the restaurant was supposed to be closed. And then he couldn't find this guy. He vanished. And he was like, did anyone else see that customer? He had long gray hair and he was tall and he had a vintage black coat.

[Christine]

Who is it?

[Em]

So this guy likes 3 o'?

[Christine]

Clock?

[Em]

He's early. Early bird special.

[Christine]

Yeah, he's a senior discount.

[Em]

You know, Another time. This one really freaks me out. Another time, a customer came in and spoke with a busboy for several minutes. But when the busboy turned away for a second and came back back, the guy was gone. So he asked his co worker, oh, where did that customer go? And the server said, there's never been a customer there. You've been talking to yourself this whole time?

[Christine]

Oh, we all thought you were just cuckoo.

[Em]

Yeah, we were taking bets on when you'd stop. Other. Other times there's been multiple staff members at once seeing shadows moving up and down the staircase. Humanoid shadows walking up and down the staircase?

[Christine]

No, there was a time a server.

[Em]

Heard a loud tapping on one of the windows. But she was on the second floor. She's like, what the hell would be on the second floor window? There shouldn't be anything that can reach the window. And when she walked up to look out the window, she saw a gray human shaped apparition hovering in the air. Another. Another time, a hostess. She felt something kind of hit her in the face, but there was nothing in her. In her space. She doesn't know what caused it. She just felt something hit her in the cheek. And by the time she got back to the hostess stand, there was a huge like red handprint, as if someone slapped her across the face.

[Christine]

Well, that's up. That's like the first, like personally aggressive thing it sounds like.

[Em]

Here's the second. Oh, another time a server was slammed into a wall and held down so she couldn't get up. She was just pressed into the wall.

[Christine]

Oh, I don't like that. It's women.

[Em]

Well, the next guy was a guy guy.

[Christine]

Oh, good.

[Em]

But she got held down. She called for help. And as she's still being held down, this waiter comes towards her being like, what's going on? And he also gets shoved into a wall and held down. And then they're both just stuck.

[Christine]

Ew.

[Em]

And eventually it broke free. One server said that the building allegedly used to perform exorcisms in the women's bathrooms, which is weird to me. Although I will say it was right next to like the oldest church and.

[Christine]

Well, yeah, that church used to own it. I don't know.

[Em]

So maybe they used it for something before our school.

[Christine]

Maybe before and after school. Just pre preschool exorcisms at recess. Sorry, not preschool. That's. What's a better way to say before school. Maybe before school. Not preschool.

[Em]

Customers often ask the waiters what's happened here because they sent something dark and they want to know what the history to the.

[Christine]

Well, apparently Blaze and I asked because he said the server told us it was haunted, which presumably I know Blaze didn't ask. So that leaves only one other customer at our table who could have asked. So. But I don't think it was because I found any. I think it was just because I always ask that.

[Em]

I also imagine it just had a weird feeling because from what I've seen online, the decor of it is very dated. So it feels not dated in a bad way. Dated in like a.

[Christine]

We're sticking with the tradition historic kind of way.

[Em]

It's been around since the 70s. Or a five star. It's like, like a classic old school.

[Christine]

Steakhouse steakhouse vibe where they're like. We stick to the. The traditional.

[Em]

Yeah. So it's just kind of darker in there and so it just feels a little creepy.

[Christine]

Menu. I just looked at it. That, that, that's cool.

[Em]

They do. They have a kids menu which is half a lobster.

[Christine]

I know, right? It's like $65.

[Em]

Anyway, the last thing I'm gonna say is there's a quote from our server named Jill who has said at the end of the night when people are starting to go home and it gets more quiet, you kind of stop trying to hear things because you're afraid of what you're going to see.

[Christine]

That's. Oh, goose Cam. That's the vibe. That's like when you're in a dark house and you sense something, you don't look, look because you know you might see something. You know what I mean? Like you hear a tapping on a second floor window. Am I gonna go look? No.

[Em]

No, I am not.

[Christine]

No, siree.

[Em]

Anyway, that is five fishermen. And I can't believe that we found out together live that you've eaten there.

[Christine]

Exciting. I was like. I was like there. I mean, it's a smallish town, but there are a lot of really nice restaurants. So. And we were like dealing. We were contending with Canadian Thanksgiving. And so a lot of places had like odd hours or were like booked because people had books for Thanksgiving. But yeah, that was a really delicious meal.

[Em]

No, go.

[Christine]

I did not. I know. I mean, honestly, like you said, there could have been a lady staring at me from the mirror next to me and I would not have probably noticed. I was really busy taking pictures of my wine and my lobster.

[Em]

I would have been nice if I was spending four dollar signs worth on. On food. I better not get distracted from the food.

[Christine]

That's right. Yeah. It's like, honestly, maybe they tell them like, like if they tip. If they don't tip well, you can give them a little oogie boogie scare, you know, but otherwise let them enjoy their five course, five star meal. Okay. In peace.

[Em]

I'm sure there's other places, but the only other mortuary turned restaurant I can think of is there's a place in Denver called. It's. Well, it was originally called Olinger, like funeral services.

[Christine]

Called Casa Bonita and.

[Em]

No, it was called Olinger or something. Funeral homes, I guess.

[Christine]

I feel like you've told me about this. Maybe.

[Em]

Probably. It's like one of my favorite things.

[Christine]

Or was it in the book that we wrote?

[Em]

Probably. Did we write a book? Well, then it became a restaurant, and I. I don't. I feel like it was by accident. But the O in Olinger, they decided to keep the sign up and the O burnt out. So now it just says Linger. How fun. And so now it's.

[Christine]

Love that.

[Em]

Now it's a restaurant called Lingerie.

[Christine]

Hey, that's cool.

[Em]

And it's like. I mean, that's so meant to be. I feel like if you had Olinger funeral services, you should have just made it linger.

[Christine]

Funeral services, I mean, it's like the universe did it for them, you know?

[Em]

I know.

[Christine]

I love that.

[Em]

I like, I like to think that Olinger was up in the sky and was like, we're gonna keep the homage and we're gonna make it really good. And then just turned his own light out.

[Christine]

Just watch.

[Em]

Anyway, that's five fishermen.

[Christine]

That was so cool. I mean, I never would have expected you to do a restaurant. Seafood restaurant, let alone one I've apparently been to.

[Em]

I saw Halifax and I went, okay, all right.

[Christine]

Seven years ago. I better get going. Let's go back.

[Em]

I do think it'd be interesting to go and do the Titanic menu just to be like, oh, what'd they eat in 1912?

[Christine]

I think that's super cool. And I would love that. The ghost war was one of the best I've done Because there's so much history. Like the, like the explosion, for example, the. Did you know, apparently it would have killed Sierra. Here I go with my spiel blazes and my spiel be. It would have killed so many more people. But there's this hill in Halifax and it blocked a tremendous amount of the explosion. And if that hill had not been there, I think like the entire town would have been. Would have been demolished.

[Em]

Finally a use for a hill. Cuz I know every time I see a hill I go, you.

[Christine]

What is you? What is your whole deal?

[Em]

Why are you here? You're in my way.

[Christine]

So what? For saving your damn life. That's what it is.

[Em]

Well, that is fascinating.

[Christine]

Oh yeah. They even talked about like the aftermath and how so many people had lost their vision and hearing and how the town had to adapt to so many people now having these like, disabilities and like how it just became. The whole town shifted.

[Em]

You know, there was something that I saw about like, Martha's Vineyard, like being the reason that ASL started because there was like a weird amount of people on the island to. Who needed sign language. And so they developed mvsl, which was Martha's Vineyard sign language. And then it was the inspiration into.

[Christine]

There's like a lot of history about Martha's Vineyard. Yeah.

[Em]

American Sign Language. But it was like there was like 400 people who like, for some reason it must have been genetic or something, but they all needed like accessibility to speak vacation.

[Christine]

Whoa. I had no idea.

[Em]

Anyway, your turn ruin my day.

[Christine]

I'm very proud of myself because in recent years I have been able to cut out all that fast fashion. I. Every season I would just buy new stuff and then end up feeling like it was junky. And I. I don't know why I spent so much money on stuff I won't wear. But when I feel that familiar urge to refresh my closet, I just go to quints. Okay. Because their clothes are timeless, they feel luxurious, they're really great quality. And not only that, but they're extremely discounted compared to other manufacturers because they're able to cut out the middlemen and work directly with top artisans. It is the coolest setup. I bought the most beautiful shoes. Em told me to show them on air, but they are high heels and I am in my pajamas. But I bought the Italian leather block heels for a wedding in Hawaii I'm going to in November.

[Em]

Very cool.

[Christine]

And I don't think I bought new high heels, like dress shoes in. In years because I'm like, why would I spend the money but as I was shopping, I was like, this is the best deal. They're completely comparable to other brands. 69.90 so I gotta say, they are always up in the game and coming up with new stuff and I love them.

[Em]

Christine really is probably their number one favorite fan. Whether or not we're, we're speaking about whether or not we're speaking about Quince on the show, Christine is talking about Quince. So give your summer closet an upgrade with quince. Go to quince.com drink for free shipping on your order and 365 day return.

[Christine]

That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com drink to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com drink I think it's been a long time coming that something like Faye Nutrition exists. I'm really excited about it. It connects you directly with registered dietitians, like people who are actual experts on food and nutrition. Not the people on social media who say they are, but actual ones. Actual experts, right?

[Em]

Yeah. We're very happy to be partnering with them. This podcast is sponsored by Faye and Faye matches you one on one with a dedicated dietitian who will help you understand your body's unique needs. And your personal dietitian will work with you to create a sustainable evidence based program, not just a quick fix to help you build healthy habits and achieve your health goals.

[Christine]

I was able, it's really cool. I was able to put some, some factors in while I was setting up an appointment. So I put, you know, whatever kind of history I have with nutrition, that kind of thing. And they showed me all these really awesome people who were able to make an appointment with me really quickly. So whether you're trying to lose weight, deal with low energy, digestive discomfort, managing conditions like pcos or diabetes, navigating food allergies, or you just want clarity amidst all the confusing diet noise, getting personalized guidance could be the foundational support you need.

[Em]

It's so simple to find a dietitian who fits your needs. The vast majority of people pay $0 for their sessions.

[Christine]

Having a personalized nutritionist used to cost big bucks, but not anymore with Faye. Listeners of an that's why we drink can qualify to see a registered dietitian for as little as $0 by visiting.

[Em]

Faynutrition.Com drink that's faynutrition.com backslash drink one last time. That's faynutrition.com drink and make sure you use the URL. Know that we sent you all Right.

[Christine]

Well, I'm back to ruin your day. I'm so glad you asked.

[Em]

Phew.

[Christine]

This is the story of Rachel Winkler. And it's kind of one of those stories that contains a crime within a crime. So we'll get to that. But let's just jump right in. We're going to start all the way at the beginning. September 26, 1999. These two guys, Michael Hodnett and Woody Depue, were camping in the Chattahoochee National Forest, which is a remote expanse of forest. Forest that covers about 26 counties in Georgia. So they're out in the wilderness camping, and in the middle of the night, they wake up to someone running through the campsite screaming for help.

[Em]

Oh.

[Christine]

So of course they, they jump out of bed. Well, out of tent. I don't know, out of. I don't go camping.

[Em]

Out of sleeping off the ground.

[Christine]

Yeah, I like how I'm like, I would go under the tent and not come out, but I guess I would.

[Em]

Get in my car and just keep driving.

[Christine]

Yeah, I would not be there because I wouldn' not be camping.

[Em]

What's a hill?

[Christine]

What? Oh, finally an actual good reason for a hill to exist. So what about sledding if I'm driven up? Well, right, right. I mean, I'm not talking about the up part. Right. But just the down part.

[Em]

The down part. I understand the down part of a hill. The up part. We've never been friends.

[Christine]

Okay, fair point. I guess the down part is always pretty. Pretty fine. Okay, so Michael and Woody, they jump up. They. They rush out of the tent. They find this guy, he's in complete distress. He. Them, he's just been in a terrible car accent accident. And his wife is trapped in the vehicle.

[Em]

Oh, my God.

[Christine]

He's freaking out. So Woody and Michael, they run to the scene, they find the vehicle. It is completely engulfed in 20 foot tall flames.

[Em]

Oh, no.

[Christine]

And this guy's like, my wife's in there. So they make their way down this slope and they're trying to access the car, which has kind of fallen off this ledge. And Todd is meanwhile, he's the guy that was asking for help. He waits above, but because of the fire, they just can't get access. And they realize pretty quickly there's no way they're going to be able to save the woman inside. Her name was Catherine or Kathy Carlisle, and she was only 32 years old.

[Em]

Oh, my God.

[Christine]

So the men had to abandon the scene because the fire kept spreading and there was just nothing they could do. It ended up, consuming three acres before county and federal firefighters were able to get it under control. And at this point, Kathy's husband, Todd Winkler, is in consol. He tells first responders that he and Kathy were just out camping together, and he went to go to use the bathroom, and while he was outside, he was bitten by an insect. And because he has allergic reactions to bug bites, he said it was a medical emergency. So he woke Kathy up, said, you have to drive me to the hospital. And he said he was in the bed of the truck. And as things were getting worse and worse, Kathy panicked and sped up in the dark park, hit a curve too fast, spun off the road, and careened 200ft down the side of the mountain.

[Em]

Oh, my God.

[Christine]

Todd was not buckled in, claiming he was in the the bed of the truck or in the back at least. And he was ejected from the vehicle when it rolled, and it finally stopped when it hit a tree and burst into flames.

[Em]

Oh, my God.

[Christine]

Now, tragically, when Kathy's remains were finally recovered, they were burned beyond recognition. And it was determined that she had been alive when the car had had crashed. And because they had found evidence of smoke inhalation and internal burns. It's just horrible. Her sister Christina was devastated, as was her best friend, Julie Lynn Cox. Julie tried to call Todd over and over, trying to get a hold of him and just say, like, hey, what happened? Like, we want to hear from you. I mean, this is their sister and best friend's husband. And he never answered the phone. And then one day when she called, his line had just been disconnected, connected. Okay, End of that. They just had to try and move on without Kathy in their lives. And the accident was ruled an accident. Okay. Several years. I mean, you can probably hear in my tone that I don't believe it was an accident, but it was ruled technically as an accident. Okay, so several years later, Todd meets Rachel. Like his late wife, Rachel was beautiful and charismatic. She graduated top of her accounting class at Sonoma State University. She was a painter and very artistic. She had an adventurous spirit and liked to spend time outdoors, hiking, river rafting, bungee jumping. And the two of them were in that kind of like, honeymoon phase almost immediately. Just weeks after they started dating, they got engaged. And Rachel's father, Don, was a little concerned because she was going real fast. And the way he talks about his daughter, it's very sweet. Like, he, he's just, he just. When he described her, I got teary eyed because I was like, what a kind way to describe a person. Just as like, Intelligent and, and, and loving and creative and she just sounded like a really cool gal. But they got engaged and dawn is a little anxious about this because he doesn't really know this guy. He feels like, how can she really know this guy? But he met. He met him and was like, well, they're really, really in love. So he just kind of. And what is he going to do? You know? So he just let it happen. Happen. However, his anxiety started to worsen when one of Todd's ex girlfriends reached out and said, whatever you do, don't let your daughter marry that man.

[Em]

Oh, okay. Which is wild because so far you really had me hooked. That, like, I mean, to be inconsolable.

[Christine]

Yeah, it's that word, right? Like alarming to hear.

[Em]

I did question. So he like had an allergic reaction to bug bites and then he never had the reaction.

[Christine]

Hey, good point. I do believe it's in my notes later, but I'm gonna say it now just in case it's not. When the investigator arrived on scene and said, oh, where's your bug bite? He said, I forget.

[Em]

Oh my God. Okay, wow. You know, immediately I don't feel a complete dread for him. Okay.

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. He just said, I got bitten by bug and I had a severe allergic reaction. Had to go to the hospital.

[Em]

So severe here.

[Christine]

But then like it just stopped and.

[Em]

Like, I didn't go to the hospital.

[Christine]

That's weird.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

Okay. So anyway, Don is getting this call about his daughter saying, and the ex is saying, hey, whatever you do, do not let your daughter marry this man. And he's like, okay, I don't know what to do with this information. Basically, he described it as this person begging him not to let his daughter get involved with this guy. But if Rachel had any doubts about Todd, she did not show them. She told Don she knew what she was doing. And like he said, she was a smart, intelligent, emotionally mature person. He trusted her to make good choices for herself and said, you know what, if you love this guy, then go for it. She assured her dad that Todd was a business minded family man who would provide for her and love her. And it was true that he was pretty successful. He was a former fighter pilot for the U.S. air Force and he had since retired to civilian life and landed a well paying job as an executive for a pharmaceutical company. Okay, so Don was like, okay, fine, I'm glad he makes money, but that's not really like my big concern.

[Em]

Right?

[Christine]

And like, he always found Todd pretty respectful. Like, you know, that kind of just. He's a gentleman to him and like a father figure, you know? But Don was afraid that, like, maybe they didn't know the real guy. I think he probably had a gut feel, feeling. It took a while for Don to really believe in the relationship. He was still pretty wary. Rachel and Todd ended up getting married. They settled into their new life in Cameron Park, California, which is about 40 minutes east of Sacramento. I didn't know about this, this neighborhood, but apparently Cameron park is a community of pilots and aeroplane enthusiasts.

[Em]

Okay, sure.

[Christine]

Yeah. One neighborhood, Cameron Air Park Estates, is what's known as a residential air park park, which are neighborhoods, I know, neighborhoods built around airports. So you basically take off from your home.

[Em]

That's so sick.

[Christine]

Isn't that wild?

[Em]

I, I, I think I've heard about this one other time on one of my, like, spirals about the Duggars, because they're all into planes.

[Christine]

Are they? I didn't know that.

[Em]

Oh, all of them know how to fly a plane.

[Christine]

Oh, wait. Yes, you've told me that. When we cut. Yeah, you've told me this.

[Em]

I think one of them said in some episode, he was like, my dream is to live in an air park. And in. Then I, of course, had to go looking.

[Christine]

Yeah, of course. Because it's like, what are you talking, like an Airstream? No.

[Em]

What a fun concept. It would be so useful on tour if we lived in an air park.

[Christine]

Well, and if Evo was a pilot.

[Em]

Yeah, that would be crazy.

[Christine]

We would kind of need somebody to actually get us to and fro.

[Em]

Sometimes I, in the middle of the night, I think, I'm going to go to pilot school. And then I go, you should go to bed first.

[Christine]

Oh, maybe we'll start by actually falling asleep and getting a good night's rest.

[Em]

Yeah, part, part of me is like.

[Christine]

I go to sleep first.

[Em]

Not that I actually think I'm gonna, like, go to pilot school in the middle of the night, but I'm like, maybe I sleep on it. Because I could probably just be really tired and think, this is a genius idea. And tomorrow I have a feeling I won't want to do it.

[Christine]

Have you flown a plane?

[Em]

Like, never in my life once. No. But I keep thinking, like, I need a hobby. Wait, what?

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

When? When you were five and you sat in, like, the captain's lap?

[Christine]

I like Michael Scott. Or was it Dwight? Yeah, no, I flew a plane. Like, my, my stepdad got me flying lessons in high school. I didn't want them, and I said, I don't want them. And then I Got them anyway, so I had to do it. It was fine.

[Em]

We flew. By yourself, like, alone up there?

[Christine]

No, no, no. There was, like, an instructor, but I was, like, in the.

[Em]

How. How many lessons did you take?

[Christine]

Only one.

[Em]

And they let you fly a plane?

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

That feels like you need at least.

[Christine]

I think what they do is, like, they scoot over. It's like a drive. Divers.

[Em]

Oh, plane.

[Christine]

Where? Like, I think they have emergency stuff on there.

[Em]

Like, I see.

[Christine]

There really wasn't much I could do except, like, go, like, left, right.

[Em]

Was it cool or was it horrifying?

[Christine]

No, it was really cool. It was. I liked it better than skydiving, which I also was forced to do against my will, so couldn't be me. Yeah.

[Em]

No.

[Christine]

I would prefer to stay in the plane if I'm choosing.

[Em]

What is wrong with you? Why do you want to go skydiving? And also, Allison's gone bungee jumping.

[Christine]

Don't. Did you not hear? Against my will. Do you have any idea how afraid of heights I am? And how nauseated I get just being.

[Em]

Suggested that my mom.

[Christine]

I was forced to do this by my mother and stepfather.

[Em]

No wonder they married each other.

[Christine]

Yeah, they're sick.

[Em]

They want you in the sky, girl. They love you.

[Christine]

There's a picture of me with a flight certificate. I got home, and I put that in the trash. I was like, I don't want any of this. Get it away. That's not true. I hug it up very proudly for a long time, but I guess I can't.

[Em]

I've been in a hot air balloon.

[Christine]

That's cool. I've not done that. I don't want to do that either.

[Em]

But I don't want to ever again.

[Christine]

Yeah. Every review I've read Alexander and I did an episode on. On one Star Reviews, Hot Air Balloon Rides. That was honestly probably the funniest and most terrifying episode we've ever done. I was like, this is crazy.

[Em]

I'll tell you. It. It. The last thing it is. Is romantic. So if you're thinking about it in.

[Christine]

The yappy hour, like, I have so many questions about it, and we've sort of touched on it before, but I just. I want to hear your experience, and.

[Em]

I need to ask about flight school. We'll do that.

[Christine]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Okay, great. We'll talk about our time in the skies. Okay, sorry. Back to this. So essentially, this is for airplane enthusiasts, and they build their homes around a central airpark, and you're able to take off from home in your plane and. Pretty cool idea. Most Homes in the neighborhood have their own hangers, of course, to park their personal aircraft. The roads are extra wide so planes and cars can safely pass each other. I mean, it's the weirdest concept. Like, they should make a sitcom based in one of these places, you know.

[Em]

That'd be hysterical, right?

[Christine]

Like, it feels. It's so strange.

[Em]

It'd be really funny if the air park was like, near the lake and there was like a boat community that hated the plane.

[Christine]

Oh, I was going to say, what if someone moved in who, like, didn't know anything about planes and just accidentally bought a property and anyway, hijinks ensue. TMTM so most homes have their own hangers for their personal aircraft and the roads are extra wide and pilots can taxi the planes from the airport to their front doors.

[Em]

That's literally so cool.

[Christine]

It's so cool. Even the street signs and mailboxes are uniquely shot short so they don't get hit by plane wings.

[Em]

Mailboxes? How? Oh my God, how?

[Christine]

No, no, as they're driving by, like, they're like on the ground. Wait, actually, Saoirse put a photo.

[Em]

I'm say, how tiny is this? Like for little gnomes.

[Christine]

Look at this. It's amazing. Hold on. They're like short, I guess I should say. They're like. The sign's not small, it's just they're short. Close to the ground.

[Em]

Oh, that's so cute.

[Christine]

I know. It's like a little squat.

[Em]

It's like someone hammered it. Hammered the sign too far.

[Christine]

Far so that the wings can like safely pass over, you know?

[Em]

That would be hysterical. If you're like walking your dog and it looks like it's telling them to not go over 25.

[Christine]

Yeah, it's like, slow down. Careful. You need translation.

[Em]

I'm so sorry. Tell me this horrible story.

[Christine]

I just keep avoiding it. It's like when they're. When we're talking about something, just like a fun fact. It's so easy to just tangent on that to try and avoid the disaster that is coming. Even Cameron park residents who aren't immediately within the air park neighborhood are often very into airplanes, all things. Flying, piloting, that sort of thing. So Rachel and Todd, they bought an 860, 000 house. They moved into this beautiful area, but Todd only stayed there on weekends and actually rented an apartment closer to Sacramento where he stayed during the work week so he didn't have to commute. Meanwhile, Rachel was a stay at home mom. They had three children, Eva, Ariel and Al. Alex, Precious. And yeah, Everybody was just really into them. They were really popular in the neighborhood. Everyone thought they were just a happy and loving couple, good parents, cute kids. But Rachel's closest friend, Brandy, had some other ideas about this whole situation. Oh, Rachel was struggling in her marriage to Todd, and Brandy knew this. Brandy would ask Rachel how things were going with Todd, and Rachel would always respond with a sentence like, it's okay, I'll be fine.

[Em]

Oh, girl.

[Christine]

And to the best friend, it was like, that's not good enough for you. Okay. Like that's, that's not reassuring. I, you know, I worry about you. But when Rachel had first met Todd, she was just glowing and so happy that all of her friends and family just kind of said, okay, well, if this is, you know, what makes her happy. But now they're all looking at the situation going, oh, they can see how defeated and deflated she, she looks. Her. The light in her eyes had dimmed. She was just like really, really down. And she seemed stressed about finances. Brandy had kind of picked up on the fact that they were in some significant debt. And that sort of added on to her theory. When Rachel took a job as the office manager at the Cameron Air park, so the nearby, like, their own air park. She took a job there, there. And her new schedule and lifestyle was nearly impossible. She had to be office manager, house manager, and full time primary parent five days a week while Todd wasn't even home. And on top of that, the house being so large and needing so much care, it also needed renovations, improvements, and Todd would often start a project and then, like leave, you know, for weeks for work and then not finish it. So Rachel felt like this was an unsafe, safe home for the kids, especially the littler ones. She talked about it feeling like a construction zone, and she told Brandy her home was unsafe and she just was always uncomfortable in there. And she just was really kind of defeated. She felt like Todd's large income, like, wasn't fitting the lifestyle they had. And she thought things could be better and easier considering how much money he made and the fact that now she had a job and she just couldn't understand why things weren't really, really going as well as she had kind of imagined they would. It wasn't just Todd's absence and their home that troubled Rachel, though, because even when Todd was around, he had become kind of a weirdo.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

So Rachel would confide in her friend Brandy over email about her marriage. And this is one of the quotes Todd values experiences over relationships. I fell in love with a creep which serves Me. Right, right. Oh, and so what experiences? You know, he's just the kind of guy who base. I think what she was saying is basically like he values. Those were two. Sorry, those were also two separate sentences. So the experiences and the creep part were two things. I think what she was just saying is like, he isn't into form, like working on the relationships within the family. He just wants like stuff and things and to do. To go do things and to. To. He's just not maybe focused prioritizing himself. Himself. Yes, exactly. So completely overwhelmed and unsatisfied, Rachel turned to a friend for support. And this friend worked with her at the airport. This was James White, a former U.S. marine who did odd jobs at the Cameron Air park, like painting and roof work. And of course, as these things sometimes go, the two fell in love with one another. Mother. So Brandy could see now, suddenly, that her best friend Rachel was happier than she'd been in a long time. Rachel felt fulfilled. She felt like someone was listening to her and cared about her and cared about her kids. At one point, she was even pregnant with Todd's baby. But James was like, I don't care. Like, I still want to be with you and I want to raise your kids with you. They were just very, very in love. And Rachel knew she wanted to be with James more than she wanted to be with Todd. But she was conflicted, raised religious, and she was just nervous that, like, getting divorced, you know, was such a taboo and, and she didn't really want to go there, but she spent a few months kind of agonizing over it, and she finally decided she was going to leave him.

[Em]

Good.

[Christine]

Okay, good. On the morning of Monday, February 27th, Todd and Rachel's neighbor called. 91 1.

[Em]

Ah, okay. Yeah, okay.

[Christine]

He told the dispatcher, I'm calling to report a fatal reality. The situation's been reported to me by my next door neighbor. The dispatcher asked what happened, and he said he believed there was a domestic dispute. And he told the dispatcher that the incident seemed to have taken place at 4 in the morning. Now, I want to tell you, the time of the call was 10am so immediately they were like, it's been six hours since this incident. And the guy's like, that's what he told me. So an officer, of course, responds to the call, finds Todd sitting on the front curb and immediately draws a gun because from what he can tell, there's been, you know, a homicide. At least that's what. Or incident. Right. Because of the, the 911 call. So he Sees this man out front with kind of his head in his hands. And he, He. He walks up, weapon drawn, says, like, put up your hands. The guy does. He says, who's in your house? He says, no one. One. He says, where are your kids? And he says, at the neighbor's house. And he says, okay, where's your wife? And he's like, oh, she's inside. And he said, well, you said no one was inside. And he said, oh, well, she's dead.

[Em]

What?

[Christine]

And just the way that conversation happened, it like, gives me the heebie jeebies somehow. Like, oh, no one's in the house. Everyone went next door. Oh, my wife, yeah, she is, but she's not alive. It's like, what a weird. It just to me was a striking way to say that. I just found either.

[Em]

Either he's like psychotically or like some, some.

[Christine]

Some thing having a break or like a detach.

[Em]

Yeah. Or he. Either he's evil, he's. He's snapped, or he like, doesn't understand or he's in full panic. Maybe he's just like. He's just blurting things out and not.

[Christine]

I mean, yeah. Who knows? And it was just. It just struck me as odd. And I don't think like means necessarily anything, but I just was like, what a strange way to say that. It seemed like a red flag to me, I guess.

[Em]

Especially the first time that one of his wives died. He was inconsolable, and now he's just like, oh, she's dead.

[Christine]

I mean, I think it. He was still like, crying and like, really upset, but I think it was just the verbiage of like, no one's in the house, you know, and, and, oh, I thought you said no one's in the house. Oh, well, like, she's, it's sort of like implying like, well, she's not a person, she's dead. You know, it's like the logic of, like, oh, well, the house is empty. Well, of people, except my dead. It's just. It was to me, I just found it really a strange exchange. But he was acting very upset and he was seemingly distraught. He told the officer Rachel was dead. He said she had attacked him. And then he started to call cry. Todd waved his right to an attorney and spoke to detectives at the police station for more than an hour without any representation. He told them he usually left for Sacramento at four in the morning every Monday, and that morning he wanted to talk to Rachel before he left. And this is his story, according to Todd's interview.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

They were Sleeping in separate bedrooms. And he knew about the affair, and so they were sleeping in separate bedrooms. So he went to her room before leaving for work before 4am and got into bed beside her. He knew about the affair. He wanted to try and resolve their issues. And this is what he told her. But apparently Rachel wasn't interested and told him she was leaving. He told her that he would fight her for custody of the kids. And she responded that James, her boyfriend, Her. Her. The person she was having an affair with, would, quote, do him in if he tried to take the children. Children.

[Em]

Oh.

[Christine]

Todd then said he slapped Rachel. And then realizing what he had done, he tried to rub her back and apologize over and over, but she suddenly turned on him wielding a pair of scissors. He said they were open and Rachel charged Todd with them as if she would cut him, not stab him, specifically saying, she turns around and she's coming at me with a V of sizzle scissors.

[Em]

Oh.

[Christine]

So Todd says he fought for the scissors, sustaining the wounds to his hands that the detective had seen when he had first arrested him or taken him into custody, I should say. They wrestled each other off the bed to the floor. The fight became life or death. This is what Todd is saying. Rachel was trying to kill him. But Todd says he got on top of Rachel, pried the scissors from her, and stabbed her multiple times.

[Em]

Times. Oh, my God. Okay.

[Christine]

At this point, Todd tells detectives Rachel was wounded, but, quote, probably not seriously. Oh, you stabbed her multiple times with a pair of scissors. Okay. He ran out of the house in a panic. Then he remembered, oh, wait, the kids are inside. And he decides he wants to take the kids with him. I don't know. Or take care of them. It's just strange, the way he tells the story. Get this, the youngest baby, they say, well, where was the baby? And he says, oh, in our room with us in Rachel's room.

[Em]

So.

[Christine]

So during the process, the baby was in the room. I mean, the baby was really small, so the baby probably was not, like, still seeing anything.

[Em]

Still something that will be discussed in therapy one day.

[Christine]

And what a traumatic thing that, like, as the mom, too, that this is happening in front of your baby. I mean, it's just all horrible. So he goes back into the room to. To check on the baby where this brutal fight had just taken place. And apparently Todd claims he's so terrified that Rachel would hurt their children that he grabbed his leather motorcycle jacket from the car for protection. And this guy was in the air force. Like, this is what pisses me off. This woman is A small, slight woman who's, like, just so down and unhappy and like. Like. And then this guy's this military train, 200 some pound.

[Em]

Like, and then all of a sudden, he's magically scared. Yeah.

[Christine]

Right. Try again off that. Really? Like, oh, you had a huge wrestling match. Like, she's £95. Give it a rest. You know, like, that I get her.

[Em]

Coming at you as scissors was scary, but you pry them away. Now what?

[Christine]

Don't stab her. Multiple. So he grabs his leather motorcycle jacket for protection and storms back into the bedroom to rescue their son. This is just insanity. In his panic, he says he tripped and Rachel kicked him in the face. She attacked him again with scissors. Todd told detectives that now it was a kill or be killed situation.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

He said, once I started to get the upper hand, and this is very disturbing. I just pushed the scissors in as far as I could. And, like, he really thinks this is going to, like, work.

[Em]

Wow. I couldn't even say that sentence.

[Christine]

To say that sentence to even. To do that.

[Em]

To say that I couldn't do it and then think about it and then be able to say it out loud.

[Christine]

Articulate that you did it. Right.

[Em]

Like, especially if I. As far as I. The story I'm to going. Going with everything was hunky dory, and this is the love of my life. And now I'm just a shock. The idea of saying that about Allison and, like, because you would also. This should be, like, a doubly traumatic day for you if this was someone you really loved and didn't want to do this to.

[Christine]

That's what's so crazy. Is like, that's exactly it. It's like, if we're gonna believe the story, then you're telling me that this, like, seemingly innocuous conversation where you were gonna tell her how much you loved her and wanted to work things out out just escalated. And in the end, you were shoving scissors into her as deeply as you could. Like, that's a great point.

[Em]

Especially if this, like, I mean, you just said this. But that's a great point that if we're starting out on. I'm desperate to have you back.

[Christine]

Right. Right. Like, I fix this. Ooh. It's just really, really red flags all over town. And, like, to burst back in. It's just.

[Em]

What are you.

[Christine]

So if you're scared for your life, but you're going to burst back into the room. Room. Fight with scissors some more. I mean, the whole thing is just nonsensical. And so he. He says the scissors Thing. It's horrendous. This. I mean, this next bullet maybe is even worse. Okay? So just please bear with me here, folks. God damn it. He stabbed Rachel in the throat. And then he lay on her body for a long time until he was sure she was dead. And he didn't get up until the baby in the crib beside him woke up and started to cry. For food.

[Em]

For. For her mom. For their mom.

[Christine]

For. Yeah, for. For. For milk.

[Em]

Oh, my God.

[Christine]

Yeah, it's. It's. It's horrific. So this story he's telling is terrible. Terrible. And. And is allegedly what he claims, self as self defense defense. But detectives are listening to this and going like, okay, not all of this is really sounding correct. Okay. By the time Todd called his neighbor and the first responders arrived, Rachel's body was in rigor mortise. Remember, it had been six hours since the incident had taken place. So now they're asking him, why did it take you six hours to call for help after you, like, just clearly laid out how you killed your own wife? And he says, well, oh, the baby was hungry. So I took the baby to the laundry room room, fed the baby a bottle, and got him back to sleep. Then he said, oh, no, I gotta clean this blood up before the kids come in and see it. And he was afraid the older children would come in and see this horrible scene. So he's trying to clean it all up and he closes the door when the older children wake up. He says he washes his hands, he makes them breakfast, puts on a movie for them. And by the way, he. He. He gives the detail that it's Planet of the Apes. Thank you for that.

[Em]

Okay. Weird. Weird detail where it's not needed. And weird. No detail where it's definitely needed.

[Christine]

Isn't that funny how that works? And I feel like they do say people who lie, like, add extra details to make it sound valid and like, this probably was the movie they put on. But I think he's just saying it to be like, no, it's true. Check the DVD player. And it's like, nobody's questioning what movie you put on. Like, that's not what this is about. Whatever. So he says he. He is attempting to clean the place up, but then the kids are watching the movie and he looks around and he goes, oh, I had lit. I. You know, I. After I put on Planet the Apes, I lit a fire for them in the fireplace. And then I looked around and saw how many cleaning supplies I had laying around. And I thought, this looks bad. So I burned all the cleaning supplies in the fireplace place.

[Em]

What? It looks worse that you did that. It looks.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

Not even because it was suspicious, but because you're acting weird.

[Christine]

Like, and, like, first of all, isn't that just gonna kill everyone?

[Em]

Like, like, don't put lighting Lysol on fire. What do you think?

[Christine]

Bleach in the fireplace? First of all, the plastic containers.

[Em]

I mean, that would be weird. It would be weird if, like, your bloody fingerprints were on it. But, like, you. You're in your house. There should be cleaning products there.

[Christine]

It's weird to be like, it was so weird how many cleaning products I had.

[Em]

I will say, as someone who over. I could see myself trying to, like, scared of, like, anything, looking like evidence and panicking.

[Christine]

In shock where you're like, if you're. If the story that is to be believed in shock of, like, oh, my God, I didn't do it on purpose. And it looks like I did.

[Em]

If he were truly innocent. Although I. I'm sensing that's not the direction we're heading. If he were truly innocent, I could see, like, just panicking and thinking everything looks like evidence because I don't know.

[Christine]

What they're going to find, like, trope in a. In a where the protagonist is, like, technically in trouble for something, but it really wasn't their fault and they look guilty. You know, it's like, but that's in stories.

[Em]

That's like, I, like, I would, like, get scared that, like, there's mud on my car and people are going to think that's where I. Now they think I buried someone because there's mud on my car. And then I'd go get my car washed. And now I'm like, you have to.

[Christine]

Go past so many other things. Like, yeah, you'd have to get past, like, oh, let me put a movie on for, like, you'd have to get past.

[Em]

You're right.

[Christine]

Oh, what do I do with my wife's body before, like, oh, it's so suspicious. I have all these cleaning products. Like, your wife is laying in her bedroom. I mean, on the floor in rigor mortis. It's just something about this is so bizarro. Yeah. And you're right. Like, it's more suspicious. So, of course, the reason that was even brought up is because they found all these ashes, like, fresh ashes in the fireplace. And so he thought it would look suspicious, so he burned them. And then finally he called his neighbor, who just so happened to be a lawyer, to report Rachel's death, and asked another Neighbor to watch the kids while he waited for the police to arrive.

[Em]

I would be fascinated to be a criminal lawyer for a day, because there's got to be times when people call you and you just know you're about to defend someone.

[Christine]

You're, like, absolutely guilty. Don't want to do that. I think you probably. I mean, you can say no. Like, you don't have to be. You don't have to represent someone.

[Em]

I know, but there's someone who takes the case, and they have to think, how am I going to get myself out of this?

[Christine]

Yeah. I do mean you should watch Better Call Saul. It's such a good show. I feel like it's kind of similar vibes. So after Todd's interview, he was put under arrest. And you should see. They're like, all right, put your hands behind your back. He goes, am I being arrested? And they're like, yeah. And he's like, okay. And I'm like, you idiot, of course you're being arrested.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

You just told them you stabbed your wife with a pair of scissors repeatedly.

[Em]

Yeah. You have to assume. I, like. Of course, in my brain, where I, like, have hypothetical situations all the time of, like, horrible things that I hope never happen. I'm like, if I. If someone accidentally died and I was the only other person in the room or something, I would have to assume I'm going to call the police. I'm the only one here. So obviously I'm going to get arrested next. Like, just because I was here. Like, I would. I would go through it in my head. I think, first of, like, what can I expect out of this situation? I can't control. What can I control? Okay. I will be getting arrested. I have to be okay with that.

[Christine]

Then I don't think my brain would even go there. I think my brain would be. Be like, someone's dead. 91 1. Someone else has to.

[Em]

I would call 911 first, but as I'm waiting for the police to get there, I'd be like, well, now I just kind of put myself in a pickle here. Like, it's. They're gonna come, and I'm gonna probably get arrested. There's no reason for them to not suspect me. I'm right here.

[Christine]

They're not gonna arrest you on the spot unless you're, like, covered in blood.

[Em]

I think I would just prepare for the worst.

[Christine]

I think I would just be in a different plane of ex. Like, I think I would just be so in shock. I don't think I would. I would Even my Brain would even go there. I don't know, though. How do we know? We don't even know.

[Em]

I absolutely panic if I have enough time. But usually when I don't have a lot of time to panic, I kind of just go into task mode. I'm like, what, what, what's to do next?

[Christine]

I think that's where I would go. Just like, okay, 91 1. I do that. I know to wait. But then when you're on 91 1, they're. I mean, if the. If the person. They're having you check the pulse, they're having you.

[Em]

That's true.

[Christine]

Give cpr. Like, you wouldn't just be probably twiddling your thumbs unless you. Unless like, you know, this were a very specific situation.

[Em]

I'm trying. I'm trying to justify it in my head and, like, be on his side for a second. To be like, I guess I could. I would panic and also act that way. I guess I would panic and also. But there are some things I'm like.

[Christine]

Second I shove a pair of scissors into someone I love, the mother, the mother of my children, the parent of my children. No, I'm calling the ambulance and saying, save my wife that I just got into a fight with and accidentally stabbed. Like, she was trying to stab me. And I mean, any situation where you're in like a hand to hand combat, I just feel like you and I wouldn't even be in that situation because you're not abusive, violent people. It's like, I think in his head it's making sense, but like, we just wouldn't be able to understand. I don't know.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Anyway. To just not be concerned about her and more be concerned about how suspicious you look and not be concerned really about the kids, but be concerned that the cleaning products look suspicious. Why don't I burn them? The whole thing.

[Em]

I just am like, yeah, in moments like that. Well, obviously with the stabbing part, I'm with you. I'm trying to think of, like, would I panic and do something like that? Probably. I could see those smaller things, but when you add them all up, they don't make a lot of sense.

[Christine]

No, it doesn't really make a lot of sense. And so it was hilarious. When he's like, am I under arrest? They're like, yeah.

[Em]

How do you not see that?

[Christine]

Yeah, I just told you to put your hands behind your back. So neighbor said Todd was a relatively friendly guy. They thought of him as a good father. He would sometimes jog with his older kids when they were all home. Likewise, Rachel was well liked. Some people in the neighborhood actually knew she was having an affair, but they didn't suspect anything to be as bad in the marriage as what happened had just shockingly happened. Like nobody knew there been any violence, nothing like that. But those who were closer to Rachel said, actually, we knew all about it. And Rachel has been afraid of her husband Todd for a long time. The day before she died, Rachel told James, her. Her boyfriend, that she didn't feel safe in the house when Todd was home and she did not want to stay there with the kids over weekends anymore. James told her that she was welcome to bring the kids to stay at his house for the week weekend. And James told detectives that the day before her death, he was helping Rachel fill out divorce paperwork. And incidentally, she planned to tell Todd that she wanted a divorce the next morning when she was killed. That same day, Brandy talked to Rachel on the phone, and Rachel said she had realized something about her husband Todd. She told Brandy, todd is a pathological liar. And Rachel ended the conversation very suddenly and said, I have to call you back later and never did.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

That was the last time they spoke. James agreed that Todd had a long history of bizarre lies. In the past, he had faked cancer at work. He had tried to convince Rachel to fake a car crash to collect insurance money. Oh, and if this is true, it's especially alarming because Todd had previously collected nearly $1.2 million when Kathy had that car accident. Remember that car accident?

[Em]

Sure do.

[Christine]

He got $1.2 million in life insurance out of it.

[Em]

You don't say.

[Christine]

Rachel's father, Don, remembered that Rachel said she had once found a box of ashes in her home and discovered they belong to Kathy. According to Dawn, Rachel said, I hope I never become ashes as sort of like a joke. And Todd said, well, then don't make me mad. Oh.

[Em]

Oh, my God.

[Christine]

And James told a similar story, that Rachel had discovered the ashes. Asked what they were, Todd said they belonged to his former wife. Rachel asked if she'd end up as ashes, too, and he told her, as long as you don't leave me, that's insane. Investigators found Kathy's remains exactly where James said Rachel found them, stored in a plastic bag in a box in Todd's bedroom nightstand. So that all seemed alive. Line up and corroborate the story. James also claimed that Rachel wanted the job managing the air park office because Todd left her with no money during the week as a control tactic like financial abuse. He wouldn't leave her with any funds, and she had three children to take care of. So that's why she picked up this job, which I'm sure pissed him off. He said Todd was extremely manipulative, and Rachel was trying to survive that, like, at the bare minimum in her marriage to him. Nobody who knew Rachel described any history of violence that would have escalated to attempted murder, especially on her part. And even Todd told detectives that Rachel had never once been violent with him before. So I'm like, now you're saying you're worried she's gonna hurt the kids? You know, like, nice try, nice try. He described the fight. Quote, it was a long, long, long, protracted struggle. She's a very strong girl. She's an extremely strong girl. She's in much better shape than. Than me off. That pisses me off.

[Em]

She's stronger than a Air force military.

[Christine]

Yeah, well, how. She was. She weighed just over 100 pounds. Okay. She. She was petite. She waved over over just over 100 pounds. Todd was twice her size, over 200 pounds. Trained in military combat. Like, detectives. Literally could not understand how this could have been such a, quote, long, long, long, long, protracted struggle.

[Em]

It's kind of giving when, like, a cop is trigger happy and they're like, well, I got scared he was going to come at me.

[Christine]

It was just so out of control. And it's like, really?

[Em]

And then you look at the situation.

[Christine]

You had the power in the situation, right? Like, you had the weapon and you had the power.

[Em]

It's like, maybe that's true. Not all the time. How is this. How is this happening so many times, this guy, where. I mean, I'm assuming at this point that he probably thought the same thing or said the same thing about his last wife to somebody.

[Christine]

I mean, that was a car crash. Crash. So I think he didn't have to say anything about a struggle. He just.

[Em]

Do we ever find out more about the car crash? Like, was he. I kind of don't believe any of that story anymore. I mean, I know it was a car crash, but I. I feel like he.

[Christine]

Well, we'll. Yeah, we'll. We'll get back. We do get back to that.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

So detectives also considered it unusual that his only defensive wounds were the few that he had on his hands, and they were relatively superficial. Whereas Ray, Rachel, oh, she was stabbed more than 21 times. And the defensive wounds on her own hands and fingers had been deep, all the way to the bone. So when she was fighting back, she had cut marks down to the bone. He had a couple superficial, as though he had done it to himself was what one of the detectives had surmised. So, attempting to find more information on Todd's history, detectives contacted the authorities that had handled Kathy death way back in 1999. They spoke to former Deputy Sheriff Ricky Johnson, who had responded to the scene the night Kathy died. And when they called Ricky and said they're seeking information about Todd Winkler, without even thinking, he just said, who did he kill this time?

[Em]

Oh, my God.

[Christine]

Even though the last one had been on, even though the last one had been ruled an accident, he was like, I don't think so.

[Em]

Like, how is that not damning evidence? That what that to like to hear something like that? What do you. Who do you kill? Who do you kill this time?

[Christine]

Oh, yeah, it's like, oh, the sheriff on the last case said that. Yeah, it's pretty obvious. Ricky said in an interview that every officer has one case from their career that haunts them, and the car crash that killed Kathy is the case that haunts him.

[Em]

Wow.

[Christine]

He said when he responded to the scene. Now this is kind of where I was mentioning the bug bite, so we'll get into more of the details.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

Ricky said that when he responded to the scene, Todd was sitting at the top of the slope looking over the fire burning the mountainside. Just like watching his wife burn alive in there in the car.

[Em]

Oh, my God.

[Christine]

And according to Ricky, Todd said he was lying down in the bed of the truck on the way to the hospital because he was experiencing this severe allergic reaction and struggling to breathe, which is how he was ejected out of the truck. Buck. And as Todd told Ricky the story, he had apparently miraculously recovered from this life threatening allergic reaction. And despite being thrown from a vehicle careening down a mountain, he had no visible injuries. So they don't even believe that he was in the car, you know, because why would he put himself through the risk of that? Right then they asked, where's the bug bite? And he's like, I don't remember. I mean, that alone is damning. Like, what do you mean? You're telling me you had such a bad life threatening injury to your body that you woke your wife up in the middle of the night and were rushing to the hospital and now you're like, oops, I forget where it was.

[Em]

Yeah. And. And like you said, to be ejected out of a car while already having trouble breathing. How are you able to run for help?

[Christine]

And now you're like running around screaming for help and you have no scratches on you, You. Yeah.

[Em]

Wow.

[Christine]

Yeah. So Todd went back to his campsite alone to collect his belongings before further questioning. And the case ended up being passed along to the Georgia State Police. Other detectives noted that Todd seemed to have a knee injury as well as a few scrapes and bruises. It was possible that Todd had self inflicted the injuries at his campsite, but it was also possible that maybe Ricky hadn't noticed the injuries. But either way, like I said, it was determined she'd survived the initial crash and had died in the fire, which is just was extra difficult for the, the arriving officers to deal with. Of course this was a terrible tragedy, but there was just simply no physical evidence that indicated foul play. So they just, even though things were fishy as they could not link this to him. And so the crash and her death were officially declared accidental. And now fast forward 13 years and we have Rachel death under very mysterious circumstances once again. When Kathy's friends and family remember who had tried to call him over and over and he just disconnected his line and changed phone numbers. When they hear about this, they're like, holy, he did kill Kathy. Like, they immediately are like, he killed Kathy and Rachel.

[Em]

All they needed was like one solid sign.

[Christine]

Yeah, I think they knew, but now they're like, oh, now we know. Yeah, exactly. So Christina, her sister and her best friend Julie became convinced that Todd had murdered Kathy and now Rachel. And like Ricky did in 99, detectives investigating Rachel's death started going, I don't know about these injuries, like you have these lacerations, but if you had picked up the baby after like this basically like a scissor fight and you picked up the baby, the bottle, you, you put on a fire, you made breakfast for the kids. Like, there wasn't blood. Like he wasn't like losing blood anywhere.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Indicating he would have made those marks on himself later.

[Em]

Yeah. My, my uncle used to call them a case of the Hillby finds of like, he'll be fine. Like, they're like, oh, he'll be fine.

[Christine]

They're just a right. So like it is tis but a flesh wound or what do they say? Flesh wound, Python.

[Em]

I, I feel like every time I hear that like someone else was like stabbed 21 times and you've just got like a case of the Hillby fines and you're like, no, I'm injured. It's like, you're fine.

[Christine]

Yeah, it's like, oh, ow, ow. And you're like, really? You just said you pushed your scissors into your, the love of your life's neck. Like, don't be a.

[Em]

Like this isn't evidence. Like you think it is like if you just walked away pretty much unscathed.

[Christine]

Precisely. And then proceeded to just run the house like normal and not get any blood anywhere. That doesn't make any sense. And remember, he had said he picked up the baby and did a bottle, like, right away. Like, right away. And there should have been blood, but there. Yeah, exactly. But investigators did find blood. This is disturbing. On a baby onesie that was lying near the laundry room. And there were drops of blood on it. And so. So investigators thought, well, maybe once we test this blood, it'll corroborate Todd's story. And he, like, you know, maybe he was kind of spilling blood and. And he. He leaned over this or walked past this. This onesie. So they tested the blood. It was Rachel's blood, in other words. Oh, my God. They think perhaps she was holding the baby when he attacked and that the blood was from her. Her wounds onto the baby, which he then took off the baby and threw into the laundry room to wash later, which, again, talk about a sociopath. So that just added, like, an extra element of. Of disturbing qualities to this case. They also believe Todd, like I said, self inflicted his wounds in those six hours between. Between killing Rachel and calling the neighbor. He was charged with first degree murder two days after Rachel's death. And his trial began more than two years later in September 2014. I don't know what was the. What the delay was about, but it was a pretty long delay. The judge allowed the prosecution, thankfully, to discuss Kathy's death and the circumstances surrounding her death. I know from 1999. And during the prosecution's opening statement, Todd took it upon himself to cause a scene, because, you know, that's what they do, these. These nut jobs. He start. Suddenly started hitting his head with his own hands and screaming in Japanese, what.

[Em]

The fuck is this guy's problem?

[Christine]

He is a raging narcissist, I think. I don't know. Like. I don't know. It's. He's just so unhinged because he starts screaming, you are not samurai. You do not speak truth. You only want to destroy Troy. You have no Bushido. You have no Bushido.

[Em]

So is he faking it, or is like, he. Is this. Like, is he a crazy decent. He's got something going on. Okay. Okay.

[Christine]

When Todd was married to Kathy and still serving in the military, he was stationed in Japan for a while, where he served with a squadron known as the Fighting Samurai. And he had. Wow, isn't this a red flag? A man becoming obsessed with samurai culture and he believed in the concept of Bushido as the code of conduct among samurai. And this outburst seemed shock at first. And prosecutor. Prosecutors were like, this is an act. Like, he wants to look unstable. And the defense was like, look, he's suffering from a dissociative disorder and conversion disorder. And basically everyone was like, I don't think so.

[Em]

Okay. So nobody fell for it. Okay.

[Christine]

No. Well, I will say Dr. Lossy, this one expert witness on the side of the defense, so, you know, on his defense team or brought forward by his defense team. Dr. Lossy claimed Todd's right hand was temporarily paralyzed and weakness weakened. He's a psychiatrist, by the way, that day, by the conversion disorder, which is like, basically when a mental disorder turns into a physical disorder. And he says he believed that his hand had been paralyzed by conversion disorder. And when Rachel attacked him, he was weaker and more vulnerable than he would be normally. And that's why he felt like he had to fight for his life. I mean, it's just baloney. It's a bunch of baloney.

[Em]

I'm not buying that.

[Christine]

He had had an official history of psychiatric symptoms in that years earlier, he had been caught shoplifting. And when he was caught by his military commanding officer, he started screaming and appeared to have these psychiatric symptoms and was admitted to the army hospital and eventually left the military due to psychiatric dis. And some people did say his behavior would become erratic every now and then. He would sometimes verbally attack his employers. He would claim to be getting no sleep, But Rachel's friends claim that Todd told Rachel he faked the entire incident because he wanted to sue his company. So, honestly, who do I believe? No one.

[Em]

He's also telling on himself then, at that point.

[Christine]

Yeah. Idiot.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

Regardless of his prior struggles with mental health, the prosecution was pretty confident that he was mentally and physically capable of understanding what was going on day he killed Rachel, and that no disability from conversion disorder would have prevented him from being able to use his hand to attack her. I mean, he even described the attack in his own words. Right. Although Todd was only on trial for Rachel's death, jurors did hear testimony from witnesses regarding Kathy's death, too. And I like to think Kathy was in the beyond going like, hell. Yeah. You know?

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

It's about time. And one of the testimonies was from Kathy's former colleagues, who said that Kathy took out a large life insurance policy with Todd just weeks before she died in the car crash. Of course, her co workers knew about this, so, of course, a huge red flag. But the Prosecution believed Todd might have killed Kathy for the insurance payment, and it was possible that Todd killed Rachel with that same intent. So documents were presented to the court that showed Rachel and Todd in substantial debt, as Brandy, the best friend, had kind of sussed out. And if they had gotten divorced, Todd would have owed Rachel thousands of dollars every month, not only in alimony, but also child support. And they think that would have been the trigger that she brought up getting a divorce that morning with the stress of the. The. The debt and all this and the affair and that, you know, that led to the. The. The. The attack.

[Em]

Gotcha.

[Christine]

So Todd's defense objected to this linking of Rachel's death and Kathy's death, saying they had nothing to do with each other. And his lawyer insisted that this is simply life. What?

[Em]

Say lavi.

[Christine]

Say lavi. Que sera, sera. You know how it goes. What the. Are you even.

[Em]

This is just how it goes. This is. What are you talking about?

[Christine]

Are you trying to gaslight them that it's not working? That's stupid. Like, what are you doing? They said it's simply life, and it's simply bad luck that he lost lives in traumatic incidents.

[Em]

Was that laugh part of the quote? Because that felt evil.

[Christine]

Yeah, right. It's like Satan laughing in the background. So Rachel's brother, David Hatfield, took the stand and described the numerous red flags of violence he had spotted in Rachel's marriage to Todd. Here's an example. He testified that he was once out with the couple, his sister and Todd, for drinks, along with his girlfriend Elsie. Elsa. And Todd was talking about airplane purchases, you know, as you do, and said that if someone made a bad deal, he'd strangle them. And to demonstrate, he wrapped his hands around Rachel's throat and shook her quote, strangely violently.

[Em]

Oh.

[Christine]

Then, saying nothing else, he got up to use the bathroom. Elsa asked Rachel, hey, are you okay? And she apparently burst into tears and would just look at the floor. Floor.

[Em]

Oh, my God.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

Brother was like, this is bad. This is bad. Bad news. Red flag central, you know?

[Em]

Wow. I wonder at what point, because remember, her dad got that warning of, like, don't let her marry him. I wonder at what point he was like, oh, this is what they were talking about.

[Christine]

I know. I don't think he realized it maybe even until it was too late.

[Em]

Yeah, I'm not. That's his fault. I just wonder, like, when the pieces kind of got put together for the.

[Christine]

Family way too late. Well, obviously. But, like, that must just be so hard. All the hindsight, you know, all the Hindsight, because you don't think this could ever happen in real life, you know.

[Em]

Oh my God, that's so sad. It's scary, too. And also the, you know, the, the confidence to do it in front of other people. And now you're going to get away with it.

[Christine]

Sick. It's sick. Yeah. And again, points to narcissism, sociopathy, et cetera. So Eric Davis, who was Todd's supervisor at the pharmaceutical company, testified as well. And Eric said Todd often spoke of Rachel suffering severe depression and perhaps alcohol use disorder. And Eric, the boss, had been under the impression that Rachel's depression was so debilitating she was unable to care for the children because Todd was even mentioning that he would have to take time off to help care for his wife, Rachel, because she was so debilitated. She was not. Eric also recalled Todd describing the accident that had killed his first wife, Catherine Kathy. And Todd apparently told Eric, his boss, that he was still in the vehicle when it stopped and caught on fire. So now he's just telling the story as if he's some sort of like combat hero, I guess.

[Em]

But he can't, he can't fight off 100 pound girl, though.

[Christine]

I know. Which is just, it's just like because of his conversion disorder, you know?

[Em]

Right.

[Christine]

So he was trapped, he claimed to his boss, but just before the fire hit him, he managed to kick his way out to safety. What, and then stood at the top of the hill and watch his wife burn to death?

[Em]

Yeah, it didn't kick the wife's window. Okay.

[Christine]

Yeah. So on February 12, 2012, weeks before he killed Rachel, Todd had texted Eric, the same guy, the boss, that he might be out of work all week do us due to a serious home situation and that he was, quote, trying to get Rachel stabilized. Now, hearing, yeah, and hearing these stories and knowing the reality of Rachel's mental health, that she was perfectly fine and was really happy with this new, new guy and literally had no history of any issues or violence or anything. It was just really jarring for a jury to see that because it was like, oh, this guy's just been lying, like manipulating, you know, his boss, making up stories.

[Em]

That's wild.

[Christine]

It's sick. It's really gross. And so seeing that, it was really jarring. And especially when he, he told police that he was ejected from the bed of the truck. And then this boss saying, oh, he told me he was inside the file diary vehicle, you know, and so they're all hearing this out loud and it's sort of like this isn't a good look for him. He's looking more and more like he's kind of unstable and making stuff up. So. On October 22, 2014, the jury deliberated for just one hour before declaring Todd guilty of first degree murder. And he was sentenced to 26 years to life for the murder of his wife, Rachel. The conviction and sentence was a relief to Rachel's loved ones. Kathy's sister and best friends likewise were happy to have found some. Just they wished, obviously, they had been able to get, you know, Kathy's death declared more than an accident, but at the very least, they were able to testify and, you know, get her story out there. They thought that if he was responsible and were convicted back then, you know, there's also that hindsight of maybe Rachel would still be alive. Like, maybe he would have gone to jail after the car crash. And of course, you know, the sheriff who had arrived on scene also feels like, man, I wish we could have stopped him then before I got that phone call. Thirteen years later, Don, for. For his. For his side of things. That's Rachel's dad. He just felt such a weightlift when the jury announced the conviction. But of course, has to live without the presence of his own daughter every single day. And he did adopt all three of the kids, which is really sweet. Okay. And he said it was like a tremendous upheaval in his life, but also just a really wonderful thing that Rachel left behind and, like, he gets to be in their lives. He said in a 2015 interview, I have these three children who are exceptional reminders of her beauty, of her character, personality, and presence. They are two little girls and a boy. They are articulate, and they talk about Mommy almost as if she is present. Oh, it's like, so sad. Rachel's beauty and shining personality also live on in Dawn's art because he and his daughter were both artists. Artists. And he's a respected and skilled impressionist painter. And he has painted a lot of pictures of Rachel, just beautiful paintings. And he said, whenever I painted her face, I painted better.

[Em]

Oh, my God.

[Christine]

He's like a very eloquent man.

[Em]

Very with.

[Christine]

With his feelings, very emotionally aware, which I love. So that's the story of Rachel Winkler and also Kathy. It's just. You just. It's just these abusers, man, it makes me furious.

[Em]

Yeah, well.

[Christine]

Yeah, I know. That's a hot take.

[Em]

Relax.

[Christine]

That's Relax.

[Em]

Too political for this podcast. I know. What were we going to talk about in our yap yard? Oh, your flight school situation.

[Christine]

Oh, I gotta talk about that airplane man. I mean, talk about traumatizing. And then you got to tell me about your hot air balloon Traumatizing. Well, if you want to join us, you can go to patreon.com.

[Em]

Not drink. Am I okay?

[Christine]

I literally was gonna say Beach G sandy patreon.com ATW podcast. You can also find us ATW podcast all over the place. Also, if that Patreon is a broken link, try. And that's why we drink. Or beaches Handy. That should work too. Try them all and you can come us and join us for Yappy hour and otherwise check us out on socials and we'll see you around.

[Em]

And we're sorry. And that's why we drink.