E455 Halloween Boy Math and Jerry Springer Ghosts

Summary

Podcast Summary

And That's Why We Drink, Episode 455: Halloween Boy Math and Jerry Springer Ghosts

Hosts: Christine Schiefer & Em Schulz
Release Date: October 26, 2025

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Overview:

This special Halloween episode is the ultimate blend of silly and spooky. Christine and Em dive headfirst into seasonal chaos, discuss Halloween costumes gone wrong ("boy math" style), banter about classic horror icons (and unexpected Grinch confessions!), before telling a chillingly dark ghost story (“The Haunting on Barrel Road”) and a shocking true crime case (“The Murder of Sheila von Wiesmack”). The mood jumps from laugh-out-loud awkwardness to deeply eerie—exactly the “wine and milkshakes” And That's Why We Drink vibe.

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1. Halloween Vibes, Costume Fails & "Boy Math"

(04:26–21:20)

• Technical Difficulties Galore: Christine struggles to create a spooky video background, knocking over books, debating the best Halloween colors (purple, green, red), and envies Em’s “haunted manor” decor.

• Boy Math & Costume Catastrophe:

  • Em recounts a saga: ordering a Frankenstein costume through Instacart, only for a male shopper to deliver a “Stallion” XXL used condom wrapper costume instead. The punchline? It’s (literally) a gold condom wrapper that says "For the 1% of men, 8 inches or larger."
    • ”Who made this? Who said this should be an option at Spirit Halloween?” – Em (13:29)
  • Hilarity ensues as Em tries on the atrocious costume, Christine has to describe it for listeners, and they riff on “boy math” logic.
    • “I’ve never seen anything quite so mind-numbingly stupid as a replacement for… a monster costume.” – Christine (15:40)
    • “If you feel like your costume is stupid this year, nothing’s as dumb as this.” – Em (20:01)
  • Ideas spiral into making pun costumes like “KY Jelly” or “Spermicidal Lube.”

• Why They Drink:

  • Em: Costume fail proves “why we drink.”
  • Christine: Is forced into being "Grumpy Toad" for Halloween by her daughter’s Pete the Cat theme. This segues into Christine’s undying love of “The Grinch.”

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2. Christine’s Grinch Obsession

(22:00–32:15)

• Christine admits a deep, almost secret love of the classic animated "Grinch" as her ultimate comfort/holiday movie, a fact even her family and podcast partner seem surprised by.

  • "Maybe that's me with the Grinch—nobody's ever asked. All the time!" – Christine (28:24)

• Em confesses a preference for the Jim Carrey version, but both reminisce about “Grinch Toes” and favorite Christmas traditions.

• The “Grinch as Roman Empire” analogy: Christine likens how often she thinks about The Grinch to that viral internet question about men and the Roman Empire.

• Christine describes how reading the Grinch to her daughter tied into her own journey with opening up, healing, and OCD-friendly rhyming patterns.

• Notable Quotes:

  • "You should come out about it, Christine. I'm very proud of you." – Em (27:27)
  • "This is why I drink: because I've decided to be more vocal about my love for the Grinch." – Christine (32:33)

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3. Spooky Story: “The Haunting on Barrel Road”

(39:17–89:20)

Story Begins: [41:00]

Background:

• Setting: Alexandria, Virginia, 1981.
• Main Characters: Gary & Esperanza (“Epi”), married couple; Bruce, friend/roommate.

Early Hauntings:

• Immediately after moving in:
  • Residents become inexplicably clumsy, break lots of dishes, and have trouble sleeping.
  • Epi, who identifies with Cuban culture, wonders if an “oricha” (unevolved spirit) is feeding on her vulnerability.
• Bruce, skeptic friend, doesn’t believe in ghosts—even after a neighbor reveals a previous resident, Mary, died by suicide in the home's basement, right before Halloween.

Escalation:

• Activity Heightens: Unexplained rotting flesh odor and smoke emit from the kitchen drain; sounds from the basement increase; Epi experiences terrifying nightmares.

• Epy’s Nightmare:

  • She sees a woman, who says:
    “Hi, Epi. You may think your life is perfect, but when you’re at work, I’m here with your husband.” (53:26)
  • Sleep paralysis, blackness, and a lunge at the apparition which turns out to be a dream (Gary awakens her mid-attack).

• Physical Manifestations:

  • Dishes/cups shatter, footsteps pound, car inexplicably moves in the driveway (57:05), tensions spike among roommates.
  • Epi investigates and learns Mary’s troubled history (including marital issues and a younger “replacement wife”)—prompting empathy and a “leave us alone if you stop breaking things” truce.

Turning Point:

• Hauntings Soften: After Epi’s acceptance, the ghostly activity becomes less frightening, almost playful.
  • “She’s like, actually, I just wanted to be your friend the whole time.” – Christine (61:22)
• Parapsychologist Dr. McLennan comes to study the home, sees nothing; Epi and Gary surmise “Mary” just doesn’t like being observed.

Menacing Finale:

• Hauntings return with new intensity:
  • Epi is pushed down the stairs; doors rip open during vulnerable moments; intense, animal-like noises erupt; Epi writes a will.
• Tragedy Strikes:
  • After a night out, a sudden, engulfing fire starts in the kitchen (73:01); Epi and Gary perish (Joe and Evans, new roommates, escape).
  • Fire began directly above the original site of Mary’s suicide.
  • Headlines read: “Ghost suspected as cause of fire that killed two people.”
  • “This makes this case...one of the few times that something paranormal is suspected as a cause of death.” – Em (76:24)
• Historical Footnote:
  • Previous owner was an MK Ultra test subject, adding a possible “cursed property” backstory.
• Memorable Moment: Em recounts waking up as a child with a premonition, staring at a light fixture moments before it caught fire (78:21).

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4. True Crime: The Murder of Sheila von Wiesmack

(93:19–136:10) Story Begins: [95:19]

Case Summary:

• Victim: Sheila von Wiesmack, 62, wealthy American socialite.
• Location: Luxurious resort in Bali, Indonesia, August 2014.
• Crime Scene:
  • Taxi driver finds a duct-taped, blood-soaked suitcase abandoned outside resort—inside: Sheila’s brutally beaten body.

Investigation:

• Missing Persons Twist: Sheila’s 18-year-old daughter Heather Mack also missing; last seen together during a heated argument in the hotel lobby involving Heather’s boyfriend, Tommy Schaefer, who had “surprised” them in Bali (with mom's money).
• Resort CCTV:
  • Catch Heather and Tommy repeatedly moving between rooms, then hauling away the white-sheet wrapped suitcase, scaling the hotel wall, and fleeing.
• Heather and Tommy Arrested:
  • Found at a motel, paid with Sheila’s credit card, using their real names (113:04).

Confessions & Motive:

• Both concoct initial story about being kidnapped by a gang; swiftly disproven.
• Claim: Self-defense after argument over pregnancy.
• Reality (uncovered via Facebook/Text messages):
  • Premeditated murder, motivated by access to inheritance.
  • “How about we drown her? … She doesn’t want to go to the beach. … Let’s just do it here.” (122:06–123:00)
  • Tommy even texts photo of the intended murder weapon, a glass and metal bowl.

Aftermath:

• Trial (in Indonesia!):
  • Tommy: 18 years for murder.
  • Heather: 10 years for aiding (received leniency to avoid separating her from her daughter).
  • Their newborn daughter Stella is raised by foster parents; Heather eventually renounces her inheritance in Stella’s favor.
• Heather later extradited to US, tried and sentenced to 26 more years (2024); Tommy still serves Indonesian sentence, will face US charges next.
• Heather’s aunt:
  • "I just didn't lose my sister and best friend. I really lost my niece, too. It's another heartbreak I'll have to live with for the rest of my life." (135:18)

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5. Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “If you feel like your costume is stupid this year, nothing’s as dumb as this.” – Em (20:01)
• “Maybe that's me with the Grinch—nobody's ever asked. All the time!” – Christine (28:24)
• "Hi, Epi. You may think your life is perfect, but when you’re at work, I’m here with your husband.” – Ghost in Epi’s dream (53:26)
• “Ghost suspected as cause of fire that killed two people.” – Cited news headline (76:03)
• "I just didn't lose my sister and best friend. I really lost my niece, too. It's another heartbreak I'll have to live with for the rest of my life." – Sheila's sister Debbie (135:18)

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6. Timestamps for Key Segments

• Halloween costume fail/boy math: 08:21–21:21
• Grinch confessions: 22:43–32:15
• Spooky Barrel Road haunting: 41:00–89:20
• True crime: Sheila von Wiesmack: 95:19–136:10

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7. Tone & Final Vibes

The episode swings wildly between hilarious and harrowing—the classic And That’s Why We Drink experience. Halloween confusion, accidental condom costumes, talk of “boy math,” confessions about childhood movies, deeply unnerving supernatural stories, and a tragic true crime. The hosts’ trademark empathy (and occasional absurdity) keep the heavy content approachable, crowned by their reminder: “And that’s why we drink.”

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If you want more, stick around for the Patreon after-show, where the duo gets even more sentimental and weird!

Transcript

[Christine]

From bestselling author Wendy Walker comes a gripping new psychological thriller with a spectacular three friends, two timelines, one deadly truth. Don't miss Walker's new Audible original, the Room Next Door, a tightly crafted, ever twisting mystery told from three points of view. Starring acclaimed narrator and fan favorite Julia Whelan. Alongside Elizabeth Evans and Bebe Wood. They were best friends forever until the night one of them disappeared in 2010, Brooke Lowry, Kerry Hollis and Eve Shea were inseparable. But on the 4th of July, Eve vanished and her case was never solved. Brooke moved away, but Carrie couldn't let go, her obsession driving her to become chief of police. Now, 15 years later, just as Carrie is about to close Eve's case for good, an anonymous call provides a chilling new lead. And within days, a man's body is hauled in by a fishing boat. His murder is linked to a hotel a few miles away where the guest in the room next door was none other than Brooke Lowry. As Carrie digs deeper into both cases, Brooks scrambles to cover her tracks and Eve's voice begins to rise from the past. Together, their stories unravel a web of lies, betrayals and long buried secrets that lead to the shocking truth of what happened to Eve Shea. Brilliantly weaving scripted scenes with dialogue within traditional narration, Wendy Walker's the Room Next Door is a deeply immersive, richly complex, nail biting thriller. Follow every step and misstep. Brooke, Carrie and Eve take don't miss Wendy Walker's new Audible original the Room Next door. Go to audible.com the room next door and start listening today.

[M]

This podcast is sponsored by Squarespace. We have been using Squarespace since we started the podcast before, like since we.

[Christine]

Before we launched it, which is.

[M]

Yeah, yeah. So we've been using it longer than the podcast has been around because we have been. We were building out our website and it was so easy for two people who've never built a website. It was just kind of a plug and chug situation. They made it so user friendly.

[Christine]

It's so true. And we've stuck around with them because since then they've only gotten better and more, you know, integrations, more features. For example, let me give you like a little situation here. If you're going to fundraise, which we're, we're not right now but you know, if we want to go to the Mothman festival and we need to fundraise for that, for example, you can fundraise directly on your website and grow your impact. With built in donation tools you can create a professional on brand website that makes it easy to accept one time or recurring contributions from your lovely fans. No, I'm kidding. With built in email campaigns and marketing tools that's also like a huge selling point. Can connect with your community and inspire more people to support your cause. Which is a really cool angle.

[M]

Yeah. Any reason you need a website? Squarespace is there for you. Head to squarespace.com drink for a free trial and when you're ready to launch, use offer code DRINK to save 10 off your first purchase of a website or domain. Hey everybody. The world's on fire. And on top of the world being on fire, we're all dealing with a lot on our own. A lot of people have anxiety for obvious reasons. There's a lot of mental health stuff that we're all probably dealing with, but there's a group of us who are dealing specifically with ocd. And on top of everything else going on, it can be incredibly debilitating condition that causes people to get stuck in a cycle of stressful, unwanted thoughts and repetitive physical behaviors. And it really can be debilitating. But because there are so many misconceptions out there, a lot of people don't know that they even have it or feel shame about their symptoms. They suffer in silence. Not every therapist even understands OCD or is qualified to treat it effectively, which can make it difficult to find find the right help. But that is where no CD comes in. With no cd, you can do live virtual ERP therapy with licensed therapists who specialize in ocd. NOCD therapists are highly trained, so they'll really understand OCD and won't judge you no matter what your thoughts are about. And NOCD, their therapy is covered by insurance for over 155 million Americans. So you are not alone out there. NOCD is there to help with this ERP therapy. Christine suffers from OCD and she's used this. It's, it's, it's a big help for people who really, really need it. If you think you are someone you know might be struggling with OCD, please don't wait to get help. Go to nocd.com and book a free call with their team to learn more. That's nocd.com to schedule a free call and learn more. I don't know how the rest of the song goes.

[Christine]

Is that even. What is that? Oh, that's. Oh, on the. Or pipe. On the pipe Organ.

[M]

Vampires. Yeah, I don't know. I call it vampires.

[Christine]

I think that's the only. That's all of it.

[M]

Oh, no, I thought There was like a second.

[Christine]

There's a bridge key change.

[M]

I thought there was like a guest star that comes in on the third bit.

[Christine]

Oh, God. I can't even handle it.

[M]

It's a tight three.

[Christine]

It's a tight three. Okay, well, I'm trying. I'm still over here trying to get a Halloween background because I came up like a loser. Showed up without any Halloween. I mean. And then I tried to pull my little like raven over and knocked a bunch of my books off the shelf. So it's like I can't even. And then I tried to put a background on and it's only giving me like, inside a lake or inside a rainbow. And I'm like, none of that is the vibe for today. So Em's really prepared with caution tape and spider. Oh, my God. Even the fucking pictures are askew. Wait for the video, people. I want to change it like this for a second. How do I make it just. No, not hey, bye, Em. How do I make it?

[M]

You.

[Christine]

Hold on. Oh, shit.

[M]

Make it me. That's the third on the tight three.

[Christine]

Oh, is it? Well, wow. Okay, now I remember. Okay, well, now make it me. Like. Okay, well, my life. It's not working. Wait.

[M]

Oh, my God. Now it help. I feel like we're there you are. There we. I am. Oh, what's happening?

[Christine]

Why is it pink?

[M]

Because I have a little light.

[Christine]

I was so cool.

[M]

The whole thing was supposed to be purple, but this part is the window and so it's. They're fighting.

[Christine]

Well, I mean, to be fair, it's my fault because I like. It's. It's supposed to be contained. I just, like, made you full screen, but you.

[M]

The movie magic was ruined.

[Christine]

I'm sorry. Would you like to behind the scenes studio tour of M's haunted manor?

[M]

It. Would you like to pick a color?

[Christine]

I love these. Oh, I love these. I'll never get old of these. They're tired of these. Here, we'll turn it so you get the full. Something about a remote for a. For a light bulb instead of an.

[M]

App, you know, multi access.

[Christine]

Yeah, I like a purple, but I know it's already kind of a purple.

[M]

I was trying to do spooky colors. Orange doesn't really do much right now. It doesn't feel. It feels like I'm in a pumpkin, you know?

[Christine]

And like. And there's green.

[M]

That's kind of spooky.

[Christine]

Green looks spooky for sure. And I think the red with the caution tape is like a little true crimey.

[M]

Oh, I'll make that for your. For your side.

[Christine]

Yeah, that feels right. Okay, good. So, yeah, I think green or purple or something is good for the Halloween. I do like the green. That looks good.

[M]

That's better than the thing.

[Christine]

I don't think so.

[M]

Okay. Because purple is the. The. The main. I guess second is the secondary and green is the tertiary for Halloween. Right.

[Christine]

Oh, it's a perfect three or whatever the type. Three. I don't know. You are having a problem today.

[M]

How about this? How about we keep it at. We keep it at green for opening statements and then for public statements.

[Christine]

Oh, my God. Okay. Rebuttal. I don't know any other words.

[M]

Well, I was going to tell you, Christine. I'm actually glad that basically what happened is.

[Christine]

Christine, I'm glad that I'm. I'm here with you today. I'm glad you came to my office, showed.

[M]

During my office hours. Christine showed up and looked at my background, went, what the going on? And I went, it's our Halloween episode. So everyone, Happy Halloween, everybody. And Mary Sain. Um, but I'm very. I'm very glad that on your end, you did not know that, because.

[Christine]

No clue.

[M]

I also had a costume prepared, and there was a malfunction, and so.

[Christine]

Oh, shit. Now. Then I would have looked like a real fool.

[M]

Well, you want to hold your words there because. Let me finish my sentence. You might still look like the smartest person in the room. There's. I thought about. Here was the thing I said a while ago when I think when we first got Hank, because it's. It's baby's first Halloween, and I was thinking about dressing him up as Hankenstein. So then I was like, yes, very Frankenstein. Or I thought about being Bride of Hankinson. I thought that was funny.

[Christine]

That's fun. That's funny. You. I mean, you have the white dress from when you were a lady in white, so it could have really worked. Actually, I think you gave that to our manager, Maggie, so never mind.

[M]

She did like it a little too much.

[Christine]

Give it to her. She, like, took it out of the green room. I was like, can I have this? And you were like, sure, yeah, she.

[M]

Definitely still has it. Although now I'm starting to see why they're so many women in white that haunt the area. Because a white dress is so versatile, you know?

[Christine]

I guess. So, like, it's really making the rounds already, you know?

[M]

Well, I thought, okay, I'm gonna do something Frankenstein themed. And so I ordered a Halloween costume. And this is why I hate men. Let's Start there.

[Christine]

Go off, King.

[M]

If you follow the Internet at all, if you are at all chronically online online like I am, you know that there is the trope that if you get a man who's an your Instacart shopper, you just cancel the fucking order and try again until you get a woman.

[Christine]

It's almost like, it's like become. Yeah, a whole meme of like posting the back and forth between your male Instacart driver who's like, is this what you want?

[M]

No, idiot, to a point where now a bunch of. For I'm sure more nefarious reasons with Uber. But on Instacart, a lot of men now have a woman's name as their name on their account. So that way people won't cancel their order.

[Christine]

No, but then if I get like.

[M]

Britney gave you bananas when you asked for batteries, it's like, I know a man is Britney.

[Christine]

I know that Britney. Don't with me, Britney.

[M]

Well, a man was my instacart chopper for my Halloween gift. For my Halloween costume. A gift to you, I suppose.

[Christine]

Yeah, my gift. What did he do with my gift?

[M]

Well, I asked for Frankenstein. And you would think a grown ass man would know what Frankenstein is. Please, I didn't even get a note at all that it said that it was out of stock. I don't know what happened. Do you?

[Christine]

Is this a spirit Halloween situation or what's like the venue?

[M]

Okay, spirit the venue.

[Christine]

So this man is going to spirit Halloween.

[M]

You would think there's Frankenstein or at least I would imagine if you're doing the boy math of it all. It's like, well, there's no costume, but here's like green face paint or something.

[Christine]

Like here, put something on. Wait, so, so, so, so, so he already knows he's going. He's not going to like target. He's going to spirit Halloween. So he knows this is like a costume, presumably. Or at least you know, if you put two and two together, you're not shopping for batteries or bananas, you're shopping for a costume. So what? So you instructed, please find a Frankenstein costume. Or was there one that you like checked and you were like, this is what I want.

[M]

I put Frankenstein. And then I even put. Because I was afraid to be a man, I put like, what are your other options? And there was like other Frankenstein, like.

[Christine]

I said to replace it or whatever.

[M]

There should have been no confusion. Do you want me to tell you or you want me to show you? Because it did arrive, I just decided I'm not fucking Wearing it. But do you want me to.

[Christine]

I.

[M]

You want me to put it on?

[Christine]

I kind of want you to put it on.

[M]

Okay.

[Christine]

Actually, I fully want you to put it on. I don't.

[M]

I don't know why I'm pretending. Just remember, the plan was Frankenstein. Just remember that. Please hold.

[Christine]

And now, now, not to be that guy. We're talking Frank. He didn't pull like a wise ass thing of like, oh, I got you, Dr. Frankenstein. Not Frankenstein's monster.

[M]

I wish.

[Christine]

Because that would have been really, really like. Well, actually, you know. Okay, so we're talking the green guy. Yeah.

[M]

Okay, the green guy.

[Christine]

I'm ready.

[M]

I'm gonna put it on. Jack Elevator. Transylvania. Vampire music.

[Christine]

Ah. Can I open?

[M]

Yeah. I'm a condom.

[Christine]

Stand up. Show the class what the actual is going on. Stallion. What kind of.

[M]

What the. For the one.

[Christine]

For the 1% of men 8 inches or larger. Okay, it doesn't. Okay. What? Why?

[M]

I.

[Christine]

Please. Your head doesn't even fit out of it. That's what you said. Okay. No, this. Oh, this is what I got to do now. I'm so sorry to do this, but this is the only way. Hold on. It's the only way. Okay, let me see now. Okay, it says stallion. Okay. It's like literally a wrap. A condom wrapper. Let's be clear about that. And it says it's gold and in big black letters, it's a full body costume. M's head's sticking out the top. A stallion. It says, for the 1% of men, 8 inches are larger. XXL. Is that all that's on there? And then you just put your arm. Oh, here we go. Lubricated lay with a Y lay text. And I don't know if that was supposed to be a joke or if that's just a typo. Oh, my God, you look so sad.

[M]

So I'm a broken condom. That's. Or at least a broken wrapper. So I've been used.

[Christine]

You're a used condom. You're literally a used condom wrapper. Which is even worse. A used condom wrapper. Like, why. Why is that even a costume? Oh, my God, this is good. Look, now you have a little background. A man, apparently.

[M]

Yeah. Who made this? Who said this should be an option at spirit Halloween?

[Christine]

I'm so delighted because Alexander and I are doing a an episode on Halloween costumes this next week and I haven't done my research yet.

[M]

And now I put a searing review for you.

[Christine]

Literally only need reviews of this fudgeing bad boy ordered Frankenstein costume. Got used Condom wrapper. Like what? How was there any note? There was no note.

[M]

No. You would think there'd at least be sorry. And this man, this is the worst. I was in my front yard, he hand delivered this to me and I, I. And he did it with such a confidence.

[Christine]

I didn't even look in the picture. Like the doordash, you know the doordash.

[M]

Somewhere there's a picture of me proudly holding it thinking I got my Frankenstein outfit. And then I went inside and I looked at and I went, why is it gold? And I went, oh, the wrapper's kind of crazy.

[Christine]

Lol.

[M]

It was literally a gold wrapper.

[Christine]

I am out. I am out of my mind right now. I don't even know what to make of this situation. This is like one of this m. Like this is where you have to literally screen record and post this on TikTok because I feel like it's just unbelievable, you know, like screen record the order because it's like this is what I did. What could possibly go wrong? And how wrong could it possibly go? And here's what I got. Like, that's. Honestly, I thought you were gonna show me like, yeah. Literally anything but this. Yeah.

[M]

Anything else? A werewolf? Yeah, something.

[Christine]

I've never even seen this.

[M]

I didn't know it existed. This is the scariest part of my Halloween.

[Christine]

It's terrifying.

[M]

Do I wear it the whole time? What do I do? What do I do?

[Christine]

That's what she said. That's what he said.

[M]

I mean technically I'm in a costume. It's not even aesthetic for the, for the cam.

[Christine]

You know, it's like it helps that the green light is reflecting so it looks sort of like a Martian or like. Yeah, there you go. You look either wicked or Frankenstein or an alien or a green condom wrapper.

[M]

Thank you. I mean, I guess I'll just. It's too. Putting it on was a real. I'm sure, I'm sure others have said something.

[Christine]

Putting it on, it's a little, it's a little too small for me, if you know what I mean.

[M]

Yeah, actually this. XXXL is just not.

[Christine]

It's just for the 1%. And I've never seen anything quite so like just mind numbingly stupid as a, as a replacement for. Yeah. A common item. Like, like for a spirit Halloween. Like a monster, a Frankenstein.

[M]

My first thought was who made this? And my second thought was who bought this? Like, who, who said. Anyway, we're. I'm going in circles here. I'm just like so over and it was right before we were gonna record, too, because I was like, I. I don't have time to fix this. This is.

[Christine]

We will literally lose our minds to madness if we try to find the logic here. But I keep trying. I'm like, condom? Does that mean something in a different language? Like, I'm literally trying, but I don't think there's a reason unless anybody else out there has some sort of fantastical explanation here.

[M]

It's. It's beyond me.

[Christine]

It's out of control. I feel like I should order a costume now and just see what happens.

[M]

Can you be the spermicidal lube? And then together we make magic.

[Christine]

It does say it's a lubricated latex.

[M]

Maybe you can be an iud. And then we're, like, really protected over here, you know?

[Christine]

Oh, my God, you're right. And also, like, I'm in Kentucky, so I could be like, KY Jelly or something, you know?

[M]

Now stop it right there.

[Christine]

Just saying. Maybe I wear. Maybe I wear, like, a Smucker's costume. And everyone's like, what are you. And I'm like, okay, why Jelly. Get it. I put like, I can. I put like, oh, I'm like a. A jelly. And then I also am holding. Or I'm, like, wearing a cowboy hat and, like, have a horse, and I'm like, I'm KY Jelly.

[M]

Oh, I see. Yes.

[Christine]

No, I'm like, Kentucky 100. So dumb. Christine.

[M]

No, you've just found a way to insert a cowboy into your fantasies again. That's just.

[Christine]

I know. I can't stop myself. I really can'. It.

[M]

Can you hear this? I'm just for the sound.

[Christine]

Just.

[M]

Should I take it off or is it gonna bother everybody?

[Christine]

I just, like. I don't hear anything except I just see you going, like, okay, well, because.

[M]

To me, it's so loud. Because it's okay.

[Christine]

Why don't you take it off? We've gotten. You look. You look sad. I mean, you look sad in, like, a pitiful way. You look like you're poking out of, like. I know. You're literally. I'm not kidding.

[M]

I look like.

[Christine]

You look like a penis head with a. With a. Like a weird amount of pubes on the top of it, you know? On the part. On the part. Oh, no. You're a show. You're a grower, not a shower.

[M]

Okay, so you don't like this?

[Christine]

I was gonna say it could be, like, a lace bag, but then I went, no, it literally looks like a condom wrapper. There's not really a Way around it.

[M]

I've never even touched a human, like. Like a real human one. Wait a minute. Yeah, real condom. This is the most intimate I've ever been with a condom.

[Christine]

You for sure touched a condom wrapper. Like in those free ones they gave you at the health clinic, or were you too scared? I was too scared.

[M]

I don't think I ever went, oh, no, I have touched a condom, but it was for educational purposes only.

[Christine]

I was gonna say, didn't your mother teach you how to. Didn't your mother teach you how to use it?

[M]

The only other time I've touched a condom is in front of my mom. So it's been. It's been a bad record over here.

[Christine]

And now in front of all of our many listeners.

[M]

So I hope everyone's happy.

[Christine]

We are, by the way, really happy.

[M]

Just for the. Still for Megan, because I know she's gonna get one. No.

[Christine]

When I made it, like, big. We have to make it big again so that you. Oh, that's what she said. Hey, there you go. Now you're more in the. In the growing frame now.

[M]

Talk about big Stallion. Help me.

[Christine]

Insane. It's when you lean forward and you can see the inside of the wrapper that it looks like deeply nuts. Like it. Because it looks like it's actually an open wrapper with, like, by the way, also, that's not even how condoms open. So condoms, like, you tear them.

[M]

Right.

[Christine]

So it literally looks like you. The condom's so big, it, like, popped out of the wrapper like.

[M]

Like it was on a plane and the air made it bust, you know? Yeah.

[Christine]

Like, it's just too much. Too much pressure. So.

[M]

Yeah.

[Christine]

I feel like for your comfort's sake, I mean, I'm loving it, so don't do it on my behalf, but for your comfort's sake.

[M]

I'm fine. I just want to make sure the sound isn't getting.

[Christine]

No, I don't. I don't hear anything except just. Just laughter from.

[M]

Perfect.

[Christine]

My own mind. Yeah.

[M]

Excellent. Okay. Well.

[Christine]

Wow. I'm so thrilled, actually. Remember when I said I looked like an idiot? You're right. You were right.

[M]

Yeah. Because you were like, oh, well, I look stupid. I went. You sit there. You sit pretty with your stupid little perfect neutrophil hair and oopsie.

[Christine]

And my. My neutral background and my rainbow virtual background. Yeah.

[M]

No matter. This is. Maybe. I don't know about psa, but a. A gentleman comfort to others that if you feel like your costume is stupid this year, nothing's as dumb as this.

[Christine]

Yeah. Don't worry. It could be worse. And that's what we're here to tell you most weeks, actually. And. And that's why we drink. I mean, this is really maybe one of my favorite reasons you've ever brought to the table as to why you drink, because it's really excellent.

[M]

I would like this to be the gavel in the courtroom. This. This should be the final straw for why you should never let men shop.

[Christine]

I just know, for real, you need to post this to TikTok for real or. Or Meghan or somebody. But like, the. The expectation versus reality, whatever you want to call it, like, it's. This is probably one of the more jarring encounters I've had with this kind of experience. Wow.

[M]

Yeah. And if you're a man and you think maybe I should be an Instacart shopper, heed my warning. This is what you have to be better than. Please be better than this.

[Christine]

Just. Just try a little bit.

[M]

Just try it, like, for a second. Just like a little bit. Something green would have made sense.

[Christine]

More Google Frankenstein real quick. You don't know what it is.

[M]

I feel like he thought he was on a side quest and was like, go to. Just get whatever you want. Just go to spirit. And then this happened.

[Christine]

Anyway, that's crazy. And the fact that he wasn't like, here, let me message you and check real quick.

[M]

Yeah. He didn't say, are you okay with this? Because he knew it was a no. Anyway, that's why I drink. Why do you drink, Christine?

[Christine]

Wow. And the fact that, like, the implication. I don't want to talk about me. I want to talk about this some more. The implication that this guy was like, oh, I know. I'll tell them that they have an 8 inch dick. That'll work. Like, what are you doing? Like, of all choices. It's a fucking choice, though, you know, it's like, what? Okay, anyway, yeah, why do I drink? I mean, this is now all I'm gonna think about today. Why do I drink? I don't even remember. I had a reason.

[M]

Do you have plans to, like, without someone interfering with your plans? Did you have a costume for Halloween?

[Christine]

Oh, sure do. I don't even get to make plans anymore. Leon has decided she's Pete the Cat this year. And I said, okay, pretty easy. Let's do it. And I said, oh, fun. I get to decide what to be. And she said, and you'll be Grumpy Toad this time. And I was like, that fits, though. Oh, God. So, yeah, I'm grumpy. Toad. I am kind of excited because I do have a lot of like, Grinch. Oh, that's what I was going to talk about, the Grinch. Okay. So we found our way there. I. I do have a lot of Grinch esque accessories and apparel because I have a sick problem about the Grinch. Yeah. And now I said that the other day. He said, what do you mean? And I said, well, you know me, I love the Grinch and I feel like I'm creating a Mandela effect by accident.

[M]

Yeah, you're crazy. What are you talking about?

[Christine]

He was like, what do you mean? Because I was shopping. Okay. So I got a. An email from colourpop and they were like launching our new Grinch collab from Whoville. And I was like, holy. And I showed my brother and I said, I'm buying this right now. It's like a hundred bucks. This is made for me. And he was like, are you. Is this a. Is this a bit. I don't get it.

[M]

Right?

[Christine]

And I was like, what do you mean, is this a bit. You know, that's my favorite film. And he was like, it is. And like, I think he was just like, I don't. And then he actually said, this is. This is one of the, like, I don't even want. It wasn't cruel, but it was definitely cold. And it was. And it was also totally appropriate. He said to me, I really don't care about the Grinch. And I went. And I went, oh, I see. I thought this was a sibling thing where like we were both really amped about how colourpop has this new drop. And he was like, I'm happy for you, but I want to make it so clear that this is not of interest to me.

[M]

I feel like you. No wonder you sang the who song so well.

[Christine]

Yeah. You know, I think something was there. And then I covered the Grinch as a crime story one year.

[M]

I know it's all coming together all of a sudden.

[Christine]

And then every newsletter that Jess sends out holiday time. I mean, every newsletter that Jess sends out during Christmas time. I always recommend the Grinch. But the, the 1960s version, people.

[M]

Sure.

[Christine]

The 30 minute version, the T made for TV1. That's the only one I like and I love it. I do kind of actually like the newer one. Not the one. Not the live action. I love Jim Carrey, but I am not a fan of that franchise of the Jim Carrey one. I. It scares me.

[M]

What's the newer one? I thought there was only two of them.

[Christine]

No, there was an animated one. With, like. I really liked it.

[M]

Like, cgi. Like, like.

[Christine]

No, it was animated. Let me see what year that was. 2018. They made a Grinch, and I thought it was pretty cute. It has, like, Benedict Cumberbatch as the Grinch. Oh. And I thought it was pretty cute and Rashida Jones and some other cool people, but I was watching that one time, and I was like, you guys, let's watch the Grinch. And my dad walked in the room. This was, like, a year ago. And he walks in the room, and he goes, who is this man? And I was like, why are you shouting, first of all? And I was like, shut up. We're watching the Grinch. And he's like, I've never met this man in my life. And I'm like, why are you even talking right now? Nobody's met this man. What? Shut up. So anyway, I got over that eventually. And then somebody stole my Grinch Christmas decorations last year, so I was pretty upset about that. But I'm re. I'm reclaiming all my Grinch love. I remember one of my earliest memories is reading the entire Dr. Seuss collection, like, anthology in a chair in my room, like a weird German child, like, sitting on a wooden chair. And just, like, reading the entire anthology. And I remember thinking, like, now this is how a rhyme scheme is done. Thank you, Theodore Geisel. He gets great. Yeah, Perfect. And so I think that's where this all began. And then the Grinch has just held a special place in my heart. And then now that it's Grumpy Toad time for me, I can lean into my furry green. Maybe that's what I'll try. I'll try to order, like, a Grinch or a frog costume. And maybe I'll get a condom, too.

[M]

You know what? You can only go up from here. I mean, that's. That's.

[Christine]

If she doesn't know who Frankenstein is, he's not going to know who the Grinch is. He's never met that man in his life either. I'm sure.

[M]

I. My biggest prayer for you is that every Instacart shopper is a woman.

[Christine]

That's so kind.

[M]

Wasn't Aleona Grumpy Toad one year? So we're just doing a role reversal situation.

[Christine]

That's right. I was Cali Cat this year. Blazes Cali Cat. So we're doing Also Gender Bender again this year. Blazes Cali. She's Pete the Cat, and I'm Grumpy Toad. So I was like, actually, that kind of casting works pretty well.

[M]

So, yeah, it's just kind of like a school plane. Everyone gets to rotate.

[Christine]

Yes. And she got like a little guitar for her birthday. So I'm like, okay, we already have the props. Like, you're Pete the cat. Wear these shoes.

[M]

And she said, recycle, babe. You know?

[Christine]

Right. And wear blue. Blue. And I'm like, grinch clothes. I'm ready.

[M]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Like, people are like people. You and Alexander are the only people I've discussed this with. And it's been of development over the last three days, which is sometimes why I think my therapist asked if I've ever had like manic episodes. And I'm like, what are you talking about?

[M]

But I will say I've never and was a455.5 episodes. I've never heard this in my life.

[Christine]

Interesting. And I think, I think I'm just, you know, it's about time I just open up about it.

[M]

You should come out. It's about.

[Christine]

Thank you.

[M]

I'm very proud of you.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[M]

What is your favorite thing about the Grinch? Is it the story or did the characters are they just feel good characters? Is it the whimsy?

[Christine]

It's a nostalgia. It's a whimsy. And it's also the rhyming, I think is very soothing to my, to my obsessive compulsive disorder. And it really just hits the right spot. I love the book. I read the book a lot growing up. And there's something about the old style animation of it that is like creepy. But I love it. Like, it's like the Jim Carrey thing, I'm like, that's just plain creepy. I don't want that. But like the old timey, like retro animation, I don't know, something about it is very nostalgic to me. And then after, you know, I had my little witchy time in Egypt and everything and I got back and I was like, really? Try contemplating the meaning of life. Yes. I'm gonna bring the Grinch up in a moment. I was thinking about the Grinch again, because I do often. Even though nobody apparently knows that. And it's like my Roman Empire. You know how people were just like, ask, like how often do you think about the Roman Emperor? Everyone's shocked how often their partner or like a guy thinks about the Roman Empire. Like, maybe that's me with the Grinch. Like nobody's ever asked, you know, so I'm like, all the time. But I don't even remember the point of the story except the meaning of.

[M]

Life and how the cringe.

[Christine]

Oh, how the Grinch shopping. So then I was, like, learning about chakras, and I thought to myself, oh, like, you know, you're. You're trying to open your heart chakra. It's really. It's. It closes because. Because life is hard, and when things happen and you get triggered, like, your heart closes. So I've been practicing to just open my heart, and I was, like, thinking about this, and then I read the book to Leona. The Grinches told Christmas, and it was like, oh, his. His heart was too small. And then at the end, it, like, grew in size. And I was like, that's so nice. I've been trying to work on, like, you know, feeling into my heart and really opening it. And so I was like, wow, that's nice. And now he has a big heart, and he shares with everybody, and now they all love each other at the end, and everyone gets fun presents.

[M]

I feel like I'm a bit Amelia Bedelia on that, because when I was not springing another book reference, but when I heard that his heart grew three sizes, really thought anatomically my organs could.

[Christine]

Grow, like, oh, and that's frightening, especially for someone with a future heart condition.

[M]

Yeah. All of a sudden, I'm like, did it happen?

[Christine]

You're like, oh, I better not be. I better shut this down before things get out of hand. No, because they did make it scary. Like, it was, like, growing out of the.

[M]

It looked like, like, an electrical experience.

[Christine]

And I think I kind of always, like, ignored that. But then this year, I read it, and I was like, oh, okay. Like, symbolically. That's kind of nice. Yes. Heart grew, you know, I don't know. And that's, like, very blonde cliche. But I don't know. There's something about that movie that's always just, like, hit home for me. And I tried to not. Because I was like, I don't like the Jim Carrey one. I was like, it's been overdone and stuff. But this year, I was like, you know what? I'm gonna reclaim it. I love the Grinch.

[M]

Nice.

[Christine]

And that's the real me. Okay.

[M]

Yeah. And by the way, what a Halloween treat for all of us. That should have been, like, a Christmas announcement.

[Christine]

But that's amazing. I showed up not even knowing it was our Halloween episode. And I'm like, I'm actually read. I brought. I prepared a conversation about the Grinch for today.

[M]

Like, I. I can't wait for Christmas when you're like, so Halloween's my favorite tradition.

[Christine]

I know. When I'm like, hey, let's talk about Grumpy Toad.

[M]

You know, it's funny. I. I mean, I don't mind the cartoon one. I. I prefer the Jim Carrey one, but that's because I'm a big sucker for, like, sets and props and stuff.

[Christine]

But, yeah. Well, I mean, I think, like, visually, that one's really fun. Yeah, yeah, Yeah. I think it's just. It scared me as a kid. Like, he'd, like. And his. In your face. You know, he makes all those scary faces.

[M]

There is a regular at the dog park, a little puppy named Ziggy, and he. We all call him Grinch Toes because he's got.

[Christine]

I love Grinchy toes.

[M]

He's got, like, the most insane case of Grinchy toes I've ever seen in my life. And, oh, my God, I'm always like, it looks like he's got little carpet tufts. Just they, like.

[Christine]

Yeah, they, like, curl up. Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

[M]

Anytime I see him, though, I think about the Grinch. So I actually also think of the Grinch.

[Christine]

What I'm saying, like, I wonder. Can we ask everybody, like. Like, how often do you think about the Grinch? Everyone's gonna be like, never, you weirdo. Only when you bring it up. Once a year at Christmas time. And then Em forgets about it again.

[M]

You must have said at some point, like, oh, I love the Grinch. But it was so in passing, I didn't even catch it.

[Christine]

And I think it's also, like, I always put it in the newsletter. And so to me, it's become a bit. Because every year for like, five years now, I've put it in the newsletter as, like, my recommended film. And Jess is always like, I know what to put. But it's not like you and I, like, we, like. I get the newsletter and I skim through it, but I don't, like, pay attention to whatever your annual recommendation for the Christmas movie is.

[M]

Sure.

[Christine]

So, like, I don't know. It would probably not have crossed your mind. So.

[M]

Yeah. So that's your favorite.

[Christine]

It's me. That's fine.

[M]

So that's your favorite movie? Good to know the favorite movie or favorite Christmas movie.

[Christine]

I would say favorite Christmas movie, but it's. It's a. It's a classic. Yeah. I would say favorite Christmas movie. Yeah.

[M]

Nice.

[Christine]

Thank you so much for asking the important questions when you're dressed as a used condom wrapper.

[M]

You know, everyone deserves a soapbox.

[Christine]

That's beautiful.

[M]

So is that why you drink?

[Christine]

That is why I drink.

[M]

Okay, great.

[Christine]

Because I've been deciding to be more vocal about my love for the Grinch.

[M]

That's an important point on your journey, I think.

[Christine]

Thank you. It really feels like it.

[M]

Is there any other updates? Anything. How's tour going? Anything you you would like to share with the class?

[Christine]

By the time this comes out, tour is over. I am sleeping, actually. I'm going to a friend's wedding in Hawaii. So I'm like, oh, fun. Zip, zap. We're zooming away for a bit.

[M]

What was I gonna say? How many more shows do you have left on your tour currently? One as we speak. Oh, wow.

[Christine]

Okay.

[M]

How are you feeling about it?

[Christine]

Oh, I'm so amped. We were actually gonna do a costume thing, and then today my brother called me and goes, I don't think I'm up for it. And I was like, oh, thank God.

[M]

He can have my costume.

[Christine]

So I think, oh, my God. Wait, I should. Please, we. Okay, let me think about this, because I could.

[M]

Do you want me to overdite it to you?

[Christine]

Can you imagine you ship that to me? I'm like, all I have to do is order a Frankenstein costume on doordash. I guess then. And then I'll get what I'm looking for.

[M]

If you decide last minute you want it, I will send it to you because I certainly don't want it.

[Christine]

You know what's too funny too is or will be so funny is that this comes out after that show. So I'm going to be like, I don't understand, like, what's the joke? And then like a week later, it would all come to fruition.

[M]

So, you know the. I just had lunch with someone yesterday and they were like, oh, are you doing anything for Halloween? Maybe we can like, hang out at your place and like, feed. Give out candy. Feed the children of the neighborhood. And I was like, oh, yeah, I have a. I'm getting a costume tomorrow morning. I'll be Frankenstein. And now you're gone. I'll be on a registry. Like the.

[Christine]

No, for real. The parents are gonna be like, okay, noted. That house is Skip is skipped every year.

[M]

Let me feed you as I'm dressed in.

[Christine]

Yeah. Oh, the children are here to be fed. Oh, my God.

[M]

Anyway, so I gotta get another costume is basically what I'm saying to you.

[Christine]

Do you though?

[M]

And Hank is dressed as nothing. It all this all came for. This is all his fault. Actually.

[Christine]

Actually, if only you'd never become a dog parent, then you would not be dressed as a silly condom.

[M]

You said it.

[Christine]

Okay, so my Life would be so much sadder.

[M]

I do have a story for you. I am going to take this thing off because this.

[Christine]

I think it. I think it's time for you. For your own sake.

[M]

Okay. More Dracula music, please. And I'm gonna. I'm gonna save your eyes. Hang on.

[Christine]

Oh, my God.

[M]

I wish.

[Christine]

I kind of want to watch. I kind of don't want.

[M]

Okay. That was an experience for all of us. Okay, what did you want?

[Christine]

Oh, yeah, there it is.

[M]

I do. I really wish I could get the purple behind me all the way, but then that would require me holding it.

[Christine]

Oh, is that. I was like, it looks good like that. Oh, you're holding it up.

[M]

Yeah. Instead, I can just kind of like.

[Christine]

Ah.

[M]

Nope. Okay.

[Christine]

Oh, well, it's not bad.

[M]

I'm. It's a half and half. I'm a child of the light and the dark, so.

[Christine]

Wow, that's powerful.

[M]

Thank you. Okay, maybe I'll do this. So it's a little spookier. I don't know.

[Christine]

You're acting a lot like me today. Just like, kind of finally making thumping noises with, like, mysterious equipment and like, saying, ah, my glasses. And like. I mean, it all just.

[M]

I do have an interesting energy today, and I don't really know what's going on.

[Christine]

I mean, you're just. You were dressed as a condom for 15 minutes. That's probably what's going on.

[M]

I know it. That was. That was a big time in my day. And I. I think I have therapy later, so that'll be something I probably talk about.

[Christine]

Thank God.

[M]

I recently went through my entire closet, everybody. And I. First of all, round of applause for me. Thank you so much. Second of all, now I have space to buy more clothes. And that is why I can always rely on Quince. Quince is our go to for quality essentials that feel cozy, look refined, and won't blow your budget. This does not make sense. I know, but I got myself some linen shirts. It just. I know. Usually I'm like a graphic tee kind of person, but last time I went on quince, I got myself this knit blazer. And I remember thinking, why did I buy that? It looked really good. So I bought it and I was like, I'll find a reason. And I was like, that's not really my vibe to have a blazer. But you know what? Just recently, I went to my grandma's 90th and I wore that blazer. And I looked really good doing it, by the way. People are going to look at me and go, okay, money bags didn't really spend all that much. Don't worry everybody. They partner directly with top tier ethical factories and cut out the middlemen. They deliver the luxury quality pieces at half the price. Half the price of similar brands. Find your fall stables at quince. Go to quince.com drink for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. My homeland everybody. That's Q-U-I-N c e.com drink drink to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com drink hey guess what I'm about to talk about. Paula's here and you know what that means. Hearty Meals My number one favorite category of meals and I get the best ones at our favorite hello hello hello. Fresh fresh fresh. It's just always delicious. I have yet to have a meal over there that I do not like. And my favorite part about all this is that HelloFresh has doubled its menu so now you can choose from 100 options each week including new seasonal dishes and recipes from around the world. You can dig into bigger portions that will keep everyone satisfied. I had a meatball ramen chicken with an apple rosemary pan sauce and I had this. I haven't had it yet. I'm having it tonight. This garlic lemon mustard salmon. Anyway, please go try it. We have talked about them forever. We love them so much. Filled with high protein and veggie packed recipes, HelloFresh now helps you eat greener with new veggie packed recipes that have two or more veggies. You are going to have a good time over there. I mean literally just go. It's like shop online but for food. Are you kidding me? The best way to cook just got better. Go to hellofresh.com drink10fm now to get 10 free meals plus a free item for life. That's 10 with a 10 everybody. One per box with an active subscription. Free meals applied as discount on first box and new subscribers only. Varies by plan. That's hellofresh.com Drink10FM to get 10 free meals and a free item for life okay, well I do have a story for you. This was an interesting one because usually I in case anyone is wondering my process I know we've said it quite a few times that we both work differently when it comes to getting our notes, but I usually do about 6 to 12 depending on how long the the the topic is or how extensive it is. I do about 612 hours worth of like researching. Then I take all those notes and break it Down. I usually start, like, a very long page document and try to get it all whittled down to, like, one succinct page.

[Christine]

Yeah. I've been witnessed. I've been privy to this process, and it is like it's its own.

[M]

It feels like psychosis. It feels.

[Christine]

It looks like psychosis.

[M]

I literally keep a. A score at the end of each of my documents. If you were to ever, like, get my computer and look at each, I always put the number of how many pages I started at that at the bottom, because I. I was. I'm curious. And it's usually around, like, 150, which is crazy.

[Christine]

Like a 150. And then. And then, and then. And we'll put it in, like, size. Like, what size font?

[M]

8.

[Christine]

8. Size 8. Like, just to give you an idea, on Google Docs, the. The standard is 11. So then M goes size 8, and then starts, like, whittling bit by bit like a Michelangelo, you know, it's something. It really is.

[M]

Anyway, I say, I. I appreciate your kind words. I say all that, though, to say this was interesting because all of this is. This is probably the fastest I've ever done notes. I got all this from one article on Medium. Oh, I didn't find a lot more than this. This article was the most extensive one. I was like, well, I'm just gonna rock with this then. So I say that in case you want to go look at. At the article yourself. It is called American Ghosts. That is the name of the article. And I don't know if you recall, Christine, but. But for our Halloween episode, I asked if you had a Halloween wish again. And do you remember what you said? About what. What kind of story you would like?

[Christine]

Not even a little bit.

[M]

Okay, so you asked for a story where I don't even remember how you phrase it, but you said something.

[Christine]

I'm sure it was very smart.

[M]

It was. It was something along the lines of, like, a ghost roommate. Like living amongst a ghost.

[Christine]

Oh, yeah. Like having one in your house. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like living with them. Yes. I buy socks. Side. I remember. It was smart.

[M]

It was very smart. I didn't.

[Christine]

I yelled defensively at nobody but myself.

[M]

Yeah, I. I never thought it was stupid at all. So I do remember it kind of laughing in your face when you said it, though, because I was like, oh, how am I even gonna search that?

[Christine]

Yeah, you were like, thank you for that Vegas thing in the world. And I said, you're.

[M]

Honestly, if I could go back in time and cover a story for your Halloween. Wish I would have done that one where the people just lived amongst that like poltergeist who like threw knives and rocks at them. Remember that?

[Christine]

Oh, yeah.

[M]

Yes. Like rocks would just the ceiling and then like people started coming in and they lived there for like four years with a baby.

[Christine]

They were like, whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry.

[M]

I would have loved to cover for you, but I already did it, so.

[Christine]

But I requested the topic after you already covered it, so. Oops, my bad.

[M]

Just know that that's in a category world. That's my favorite one in the category so far.

[Christine]

Okay.

[M]

This story literally was so underrepresented that it doesn't even have like a name, a title. So I'm just gonna call it by it's street, which seemed. That's what this article did.

[Christine]

This is go by street name.

[M]

6304 Barrel Road haunting the barrel.

[Christine]

Okay. Now is this a barrel like with bourbon in it or is no barrel like the name? Okay. So that's so fun though because I like that because that's a name that gets me every time I'm like, barrel, like a barrel. We've.

[M]

We've done that.

[Christine]

We've had this conversation, but I'm fully aware of the barrel haunting.

[M]

I like if someone casually told me, ohmon Barrel Road. There's only one barrel. I'm looking for for real.

[Christine]

And. Okay, Barrel Road haunting sounds really good. Like it sounds like. Or the haunting at Barrel Road haunting on Barrel Road.

[M]

Like Christine now Christine, you know, listen. Okay.

[Christine]

I don't. But thanks.

[M]

This is in Alexandria, Virginia, so my neck of the woods. If you give me an hour. And this was in 1981. And it. This. The main story is of a couple named Gary and Esperanza who went by epi.

[Christine]

I love that. Gary, you really, you. You moved up with the. On the. What's it?

[M]

What do you say? You climbed the ranks in some way?

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[M]

If your name's Gary, you better hope you find an Esperanza to balance you out because.

[Christine]

Yeah. Or something that like rhymes with Gary to make it just like quaint and fun, but nothing in between.

[M]

That's true. So her, she went by epi. And they were in their 20s, married couple. And they decided that they were going to move into this house together. And their friend Bruce was moving in with them. So it's epi, Gary and Bruce. And Gary was a furniture salesman. He was previously married, which does come up later. He was. Yeah, he's previously married. And they as soon as they move in. Things feel a little off for them. They all notice that they're a little clumsy, that they're like. They're dropping things a lot. Things are spilling or falling over. And I think they kept blaming themselves. It's unclear to me if those things were actually being knocked off the counter by themselves or like someone was pushing them or that they're, like. They had some sort of verdict, though, situation.

[Christine]

Right. Sometimes I feel like this happens where I'll, like, lean something and like, a few days later it'll fall and I'll be like, oh, that's probably just because I leaned it funny. But it is a little creepy because I'm like. It's been, like, there for three days. You know what I mean? Like, so maybe it's stuff like that where you're like, oh, I'm sure I just leaned it funny. Or, like, set it too close to the edge of the counter or.

[M]

Yeah. You know, especially if you just moved into a place. I feel like I don't know enough yet to be like, oh, to avoid.

[Christine]

The corner where your hip's gonna get bruised every time you walk into the kitchen.

[M]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Another big thing that happened as they were moving in or as soon as they moved in. Excuse me. Was that their dishes would break all the time.

[Christine]

Oh, well, that's weird.

[M]

Yeah. Which, like, I don't know.

[Christine]

It's Bruce, and he just, like, has a little bit of a strong hand with his fork or something.

[M]

Just keeps swinging it into the sink. When he's washing it too hard, he's.

[Christine]

Like, is this how it works?

[M]

They also were all having issues with sleep. Epi, and in particular was having so many bad dreams that she was staying up at night, which I'm sure adds to her probable. I would imagine, like, the feeling of being crazy because you're like, I can't even sleep. The couple joked around very early on that perhaps they had a ghost in the house.

[Christine]

Oh, that's always a red flag, because it's true.

[M]

Don't joke too loud. But Bruce, he was a skeptic, and he did not believe the couple. They. He did not really consider this place haunted. He was just like, we're all excusing the fact that we're apparently messes over here. In fact, later on, EPI would. She would wonder if the energy was in. I hope I'm saying this right. Oricha, which is. She was, I guess, Cuban and in Cuban culture. And oricha is a. An unsolved spirit who attaches to vulnerable people. People. So.

[Christine]

Oh, wow. Okay. So, like, unfinished business type thing, maybe.

[M]

My. The way I understood it, it's truly just that definition in the article. My. So unevolved spirits is like just. I would imagine, just like a massive energy that just attaches.

[Christine]

Oh, unevolved. Oh, okay. Okay.

[M]

I might have said something different back. Unevolved spirits who attach to vulnerable.

[Christine]

Gotcha. Okay. Okay. Yikes.

[M]

Which. It feels like it's almost just kind of like a cluster of energy trying to find someone to latch onto. Right?

[Christine]

That got like. Yeah, like a tumbleweed.

[M]

Yes, yes.

[Christine]

An evil tumbleweed.

[M]

You get it?

[Christine]

You get what I'm saying?

[M]

100%. Not to totally whitewash orichas, but it's for sure just an evil tumbleweed.

[Christine]

Hey, I'll explain this a little better. Hold on, everybody. M just taught me the word, and here I go.

[M]

I will say evil tumbleweed does make the most sense to my brain.

[Christine]

So, I mean, it must be some type of spirit. So it's not Norita, it's something else.

[M]

Yeah. And that was just her first thought was like, I. I wonder if that's what it is, because something's going on. A neighbor ends up going up to Bruce when he. I think he's like, outside in the yard or something, and this neighbor just approaches him and was like, hey, do you know the history of the house you just moved into? Beginning of every horror movie?

[Christine]

Yep.

[M]

And Bruce, of course, he's the perfect person to be approached because he doesn't give a shit. And he's like, no, I don't, and I don't care. But this neighbor said, just so you know, eight years before you guys moved in, she probably didn't say it that way. She went like, yeah, eight years back, back. I'm trying to think, how would she say.

[Christine]

Well, the more you think about it, the probably the weirder it's gonna get when it comes out of your mouth.

[M]

Four score and seven years ago.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[M]

Yeah. Basically what she said is, like, a few years ago, a woman named Mary died by suicide in the house. Just to give you a heads up now that you live in her old house and her name was Mary Conlon. I don't know if that matters later, but Mary, I also did these notes two weeks ago, so.

[Christine]

Oh, I love that.

[M]

Remember when I text you and I was like, hey, I'm ready to record. And you're like, I'm in Texas.

[Christine]

I was like, that's fantastic. I'm so happy for you. I was literally at BUC EE's and I was like, well, this is awkward.

[M]

I'm so jealous of you.

[Christine]

I should have hopped on and been like, hi, I'm reporting live today.

[M]

Well, no. Just so you know how long ago it's been since I. I see that.

[Christine]

That was a long time ago. That was multiple trips ago for.

[M]

Yes.

[Christine]

Wow.

[M]

Yeah. I think I've been on three trips. That man. In case anyone's wondering what our recording scheduling is, I don't know. We don't know. It just shows up.

[Christine]

Sometimes we just make our admin Katie miserable because she's like, what? What's happening? And we're like, we don't know.

[M]

We're just gallivanting. I don't know. And maybe it'll be more week by week now that we're both back.

[Christine]

So hopefully. I feel like holidays is, like, quiet, quieter time for us usually, because. Yeah. No touring.

[M]

Well. So, okay. So she says, hey, Bruce, just so you know, a woman died in there. She goes on to say, it was right before Halloween. I think the article said literally, like, the day before Halloween.

[Christine]

Okay.

[M]

She hanged herself in the basement. And Bruce, of course, which I think is kind of up. Bruce didn't believe it. Maybe he believed that someone died by suicide, but he didn't fall for any, like, potential haunting.

[Christine]

Right. He was like, okay, like, that's sad. Maybe he was like, that's sad, but irrelevant to us.

[M]

And I have to hope that that's how we thought. Because the way that the article kind of made it sound was like, he just didn't believe any of this and that it was. Yeah. Or like, he. Like, I don't know. Maybe he was in denial and didn't want to live in a spooky place. I don't know.

[Christine]

Maybe he just didn't want to know. He's like, don't tell me shit like that.

[M]

Fair enough. And so, basically, he did not tell Gary and EPI anything about this conversation.

[Christine]

That's not fair.

[M]

And I think he was like, they already think this place is haunted. Like, I don't want to give them more ammo.

[Christine]

Geez.

[M]

Feels like something Allison would do.

[Christine]

She'd be like, it does. Yeah.

[M]

I just don't even want to feed into this with you.

[Christine]

Yeah. Like, I think it's safer that they don't know. Yeah.

[M]

And honestly, for science, maybe he was like, how about I say nothing and let's see what they come.

[Christine]

That's actually a very good point. Now I'm kind of coming over onto the other side, which is, like, fascinating. Maybe I would also do that. Just to see.

[M]

Yeah. So let's just. It's like a. That. That TV show we keep referring to where it's like one of us knows and one of us doesn't. Let's see what the other one figures out.

[Christine]

Yes, yes.

[M]

So the friends, they are unaware, or the married couple, they're unaware, but they are continually weirdly clumsy around this house. Their dishes are still breaking. They start smelling rotting flesh. I don't. I didn't write this in the notes, but I remember it being mentioned a lot in the article that the rotting flesh smell was coming from, like, their kitchen drain.

[Christine]

Oh, God. Ew.

[M]

So in my mind, I would have first justified that with. With like, the last people to live here put something disgusting in or something died down there.

[Christine]

Stuck. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[M]

So I would have justified that early on. But they start smelling really like rotting flesh from down there. And not only that, but I guess whenever the smell would come out, there would also be, like, smoke that came out of the kitchen drain, which I can't just find. Then there started to be sounds in the basement, which is where the woman died by Susan. Suicide.

[Christine]

Oh, no.

[M]

Maybe it's because the couple believed in ghost or because Bruce knew the history and actively ignored the weird activity. But things happened noticeably more often to the married couple than to Bruce. So it. I really do think it could have just been because he just shut it off. He was like, I don't want to know about that.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[M]

And they were, like, feeding into that. Right. So.

[Christine]

Right.

[M]

And. Or maybe they. Because they were on high alert about it, they were able. They were clocking more things than he was.

[Christine]

Like, maybe he was writing stuff off and they were not.

[M]

Yeah, but also, how do you write off smoke and rotting flesh smells in your kitchen? You know what I'm saying?

[Christine]

I mean, you did the rotting flesh part, the smoke. I guess it depends on if there's a disposal. But this is like, what, the 80s? So probably not.

[M]

Yeah, I don't know. So this, especially the spirits or the activities seem to focus more around EPI and not Gary. Although he also believed in the ghosts. EPI was kind of the main victim here. She would feel the most nauseous when she would come home from work or whenever she would come from, being outside. It's kind of like when you're those stories of the people who are possessed when they would. Oh, yeah, they would, like, feel like, terrible and have a horrible personality and they were kind of being fed off of when they're at home. But then when they would leave, they'd be like, I feel fucking great.

[Christine]

Like a different person. Yeah. Yeah.

[M]

So that was happening to her. The dishes broke around her the most. She was still losing sleep from the dreams that she was having. And one morning she went down to the kitchen. Everyone's still asleep. So she's down there by herself, and she walks in and she sees a woman sitting at the table holding a mug. And the woman stared into Epi's eyes and smiled. And in this moment, EPI fully freezes. Sleep paralysis way. And like a, like, I can't move kind of vibe. And the woman says, this is a quote. Hi, epi. You may think your life is perfect, but when you're at work, I'm here with your husband. What the. I like that. Feels like some Maury. Like some Jerry Springer.

[Christine]

It's like literally. Get the cameras in now. Holy tlc. Look out. Bravo.

[M]

So she's frozen. This person who should not be in her house is sitting at her table holding her mug and smiling.

[Christine]

Yuck.

[M]

And then saying this about like, I'm at home with your husband.

[Christine]

What the.

[M]

And then the walls begin to breathe, and they slowly fade into blackness until there's nothing but complete blackness behind this woman.

[Christine]

She's a showman, huh? She's like, let me do a little performance art for you.

[M]

I know, Exactly. And in this moment, Epi's paralysis breaks. And all of a sudden, she just full blown lunges at this woman.

[Christine]

Oh, my God. So she's actually awake. Like, she was. She was like, walking around. Like she wasn't like, dreaming this well.

[M]

So then she felt something yank on her arm.

[Christine]

Oh.

[M]

And she woke up to Gary holding her down in the midst of her having an intense full body dream. So you clock that?

[Christine]

Yuck. I have goosebumps. That's gross.

[M]

But EPI certainly remembered the stream. And I mean, she was in the middle of, like, you know what? Good for her. She was trying to beat that girl's ass. She was like, seriously, out of my house.

[Christine]

But you know that infuriating moment where you lunge and then they disappear and it's like, well, me, now I look like an idiot. You know, I want to hear you.

[M]

I want to. I'm gonna repeat it back to you. You know, when you lunge and then she disappears.

[Christine]

But, you know. Okay, let me rephrase that. You know when you're watching a movie and it's like, oh, I'm gonna get that. And it like, disappears or they like, like whoosh somewhere else or they have some sort of power or whatever. And it's like you can't catch them and it's. I don't know. Maybe I'm just.

[M]

I. No, it was just funny how you said it's like, you know when you're like, beating her ass and then all of a sudden she's not a real.

[Christine]

Person, and I'm like, isn't that frustrating.

[M]

As I'm putting the straight jacket on you? Yeah, girl.

[Christine]

I know. Uhhuh. Yes, Totally.

[M]

We something you're gonna say when they put you in the padded walls later?

[Christine]

You know, she just disappeared.

[M]

I know, I know. Let's put on your grippy socks. I know.

[Christine]

Yep, yep. Don't worry about it.

[M]

So it was after that night. I mean, she. That was a pretty intense dream. I would be terrified of that dream.

[Christine]

Oh, terrible. And I mean, it's like it introduced itself to you. Like, I don't like that.

[M]

It was after this night that the activity picked up, and by summer, the ghosts were like, really here. They ew.

[Christine]

It feels like it like started a open something, that dream, you know?

[M]

Yeah. And I don't know if it was because. I don't know if it was because the dreams got that intense and now they're like, finally, like, close enough to her or if it was like, oh, she lunged. Like, we're all fighting now.

[Christine]

Right? Right. Like, is it. Was that the trigger to, like, make it all which.

[M]

Like, what do you think is gonna happen when you're a ghost saying, I'm with your husband?

[Christine]

Well, that's probably what they wanted. They probably wanted her to react so that now they can be like, interesting. Aha. It's on. You know, like, baiting her.

[M]

Yeah. You know what? Maybe rage.

[Christine]

Baiting her at work. That's sad.

[M]

And so she heard the whole house. They heard sounds all over the place for no reason. There were obvious footsteps when all of them were not upstairs. Constant breaking dishes. The smoke came out of nowhere in the kitchen all the time. And it still reeked of rotting flesh all the time. Up until this point, Bruce was in denial that anything could be here. Because he was like, I don't want to know anything about this.

[Christine]

Sure.

[M]

But then one day, EPI saw that her locked car had moved itself in the driveway.

[Christine]

What?

[M]

It had picked itself up and put itself in a way in the driveway, where it was now blocking the driveway in a way where they could not get out if they wanted to.

[Christine]

Oh, my God. I was picturing, like, it moved a foot sideways, but it like literally just totally.

[M]

It did a three point turn and It.

[Christine]

Holy. And he's like, there's no way a woman could have done that. This must be a ghost.

[M]

I mean, it parked so perfectly. And, you know, females and drunk driving.

[Christine]

That's not possible.

[M]

Yeah, it is weird that that's the thing that tricked him, because that's the one I would explain away the most and be like, someone moved the car and I didn't see it happen.

[Christine]

Right. I feel like that's the most, like, physical one that could be explained by a person doing it. Yeah.

[M]

Yeah. Well, I guess the car. This is a quote, is that the car was aimed squarely at the house as if waiting to crash through the wall.

[Christine]

So it's like a threat.

[M]

Yeah, it feels. Yeah. So I think that's when he was like, okay, Gary actually yelled at Bruce about it, thinking that he must have done it to prank them, which.

[Christine]

Hilarious.

[M]

I know. And I wonder. I don't know the ins and outs of their dynamic, but I imagine Bruce had been telling them the whole time, like, it isn't real. It isn't real. And so then when this car thing happened and it feels like a direct threat, Gary's like, well, you've, like, you obviously don't believe in this, so, like, explain yourself then.

[Christine]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Meanwhile, about time he explains himself, frankly, if he's still saying this isn't real. You know what I mean?

[M]

Yeah. And so this was the beginning of a rift for them where, like, Gary was like, you did it.

[Christine]

And, like, how it happens. It feels like this is how it always goes.

[M]

And it. It does feel like that with. With poltergeist.

[Christine]

Each other.

[M]

The men always get violent and angry with each other, and the women always kind of get into this weird lull where they don't know what's happening, and.

[Christine]

They almost get, like, victimized in other ways, like dreams and that kind of thing. Yeah. Oh, little.

[M]

Little. So EPI decided to investigate, and eventually she was able to figure out Mary's death. And so she. Which, like, I guess it probably wasn't that hard of investigation. No.

[Christine]

Oh, okay.

[M]

2. In his defense, currently, I don't think she knew he knew either. I think it was. I think she was about to, like, give them breaking news. And then Bruce has to awkwardly go, yeah, I know.

[Christine]

Okay, okay. So she finds out also on her own. Okay, okay.

[M]

Yeah. And they did use the word investigate, I think, in the article. And in hindsight, I'm like, that chatty little neighbor probably just told her, you know.

[Christine]

Yeah, I know, I know. But I would. I would be like, oh, I've investigated the situation, so I get it.

[M]

Detected EPI on the case. Yeah.

[Christine]

I mean, maybe she went to the library. That takes a whole trip and, you know.

[M]

Yeah, exactly. I mean, it was the 80s. I. It's not like she could just give it a goo. You know, perfection.

[Christine]

Give it a go.

[M]

So she was able to figure out. Out who Mary was, that Mary died after a previous suicide attempt eight weeks before. So this was not her first attempt.

[Christine]

No.

[M]

And after she passed, her husband actually stayed in the house, remarried, and it happened to be someone who was 10 years younger than Mary was.

[Christine]

Oh, geez.

[M]

And in that moment, because remember I told you earlier that Gary had been married in the past.

[Christine]

Yes.

[M]

So I guess in this moment, EPI had a personal moment of empathy for Mary. Being like, I can't imagine being a ghost and having to live in the house that you planned on having your whole life in with your husband.

[Christine]

And now he's.

[M]

He's having this life in this house with somebody else, and you just have to watch it because you're stuck here.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[M]

So that gave her a little bit of, I don't know, warmth, compassion for Mary's ghost that was potentially haunting them. And she decided, well, Mary has never done anything harmful to us, and so she can stay. And she basically said, as long as you stop breaking things, you can stay.

[Christine]

Okay. All right. I guess it's a good boundary.

[M]

Like, dishes are getting expensive. Like, right.

[Christine]

For real. And with, again, no Amazon, no tar. Like, you gotta go to a store and buy that. Forget it.

[M]

Exactly. It's like, the dishes are expensive, the gas to get just as expensive.

[Christine]

It's a lot of work.

[M]

So after accepting her, bringing her into the fold, the hauntings actually became less scary and more silly.

[Christine]

She's like, actually, I'm just. I just wanted to be your friend the whole time.

[M]

I'm so glad we're bonding because I'm actually just a goober. And I just wanted to.

[Christine]

I can't wait for you to see my real personality. What the.

[M]

So I guess now it's more like balloons popping, papers were floating around, small items would fall, but nothing would break.

[Christine]

I feel like you're like, haha, hey, girl.

[M]

Yeah, exactly. I'd be like, honestly, and this is for your Halloween wish. Someone just living amongst the ghosts. And I. I feel like if I had to experience that and I came to terms with this, like, this girl who was like, she just was depressed and like, we're all going through stuff.

[Christine]

And we get it.

[M]

She lives here with us. Like, I just pour her, like. Like, a red wine every night. Just be like, yeah, sip on this, babe.

[Christine]

You know, Sit down. Like, you deserve a break.

[M]

Yeah. Yeah. 100. So in my mind, touching in my mind, that's how things are. Or, like, you know, how she's living with her husband and another man. I feel like she would, like Jim Halpert to, like, nothing and go, yeah, men. Am I right? You know, Please. You know when you're, like, gossiping and then she disappears?

[Christine]

You know when you're just, like, lunging at her? You know how that happens?

[M]

You know, over that first glass, they had to go, girl, I'm so sorry I jumped you.

[Christine]

Oh, my God. And, like, also, like, I'm sorry I was flirting with your husband this whole time. Yeah, that was crazy. He was really into it, though. So awkward.

[M]

The. I. I do wonder. No, it feels like they never resolved that first.

[Christine]

That's what I wonder. I'm like, are they ever going to talk about that?

[M]

No, I guess not. Maybe when she gets a Ouija board or something, but.

[Christine]

All right, fine.

[M]

So after coming to this truce, the com. The confirmation of the hauntings existing kind of leaked because the couple, they were like, let's figure out more information here. They ended up reaching out to the American Institute of Parapsychology. And there was a guy there named Dr. McLennan, and he was very excited to help. He actually became a regular at the house, and he was constantly there to, like, surveil what was going on and observe.

[Christine]

He's like, I'm ready to constantly be at your house. Here I come. He's like, that's not quite what I asked.

[M]

Give me an address. I'm here now.

[Christine]

Give me a key, actually, because I'm gonna be here all the time.

[M]

He really was. He was the. There a lot. And for. Not. Not every day. But he made a lot of appointments at home, calls, I guess, throughout. For months.

[Christine]

Wow. Okay.

[M]

And he witnessed no activity.

[Christine]

What? Sorry. That was so loud. Wow.

[M]

The housemates claimed that there were many experiences each month, but Dr. McLennan noticed that they would attribute a lot of those to, like, random instances that could have totally not been paranormal. Maybe they were, but, like, like, you know, something falls, and it could have been a wind draft, and nobody's even considering that.

[Christine]

Sure. Okay.

[M]

So Dr. McLennan's like, I hear you, and I. But I'm here a lot, and I haven't seen anything. And the couple basically wondered if Dr. McLennan, if he. If he never witnessed anything because Mary didn't want to be observed like that. That was their next justification of like, right, well, she is here, but when he's around, all of a sudden she is tight lipped, which I feel like.

[Christine]

We hear in some of these stories like that. Oh, the ghosts just act differently when they're being like, filmed or like, they don't come out, you know? Yeah.

[M]

Yeah. So after her. Or they. I guess they thought that maybe Mary was upset with them ever calling somebody in. After Dr. McLennan's visit, they kind of got a confirmation, I guess after this big visit where he said, well, nothing's going on. On.

[Christine]

Right.

[M]

It's. It seems like that's when Mary maybe showed truer colors again. And maybe they were onto something with her being upset that she was being studied. Ah.

[Christine]

She's like, I thought we were friends.

[M]

Because then the dishes started rattling in the sink again, which hadn't happened since their truce. The dark smoke reappeared. And to me, it feels like it was as if, like their, like, little handshake agreement was off now had been violated.

[Christine]

Yes. And she's like, no more. Okay. Okay.

[M]

Yeah. So the couple overlooked it and they decided instead, we're going to do a seance.

[Christine]

Interesting choice. Okay.

[M]

I guess it was Dr. McLendon's suggestion of like, I'm not seeing anything, but maybe have a seance and see if something else comes up.

[Christine]

Maybe. Why don't you have a seance? That'll help.

[M]

Why don't you really ruffle some feathers?

[Christine]

Thanks. And I'm not going to be there, I assume, or is he there?

[M]

I think he's there. I don't. Not sure. I think he was there.

[Christine]

He probably is there. Who am I kidding? Of course he's there.

[M]

If it was his suggestion and he's a new researcher at an institute, I'm sure he wants to be there.

[Christine]

He probably. And he really keeps showing up to find this ghost. Like he really wants it to be real.

[M]

You know, maybe Mary just hates him. You know what I'm saying?

[Christine]

I mean, I would hate him if he was just like constantly barging into my home, you know, to like, look for me. God.

[M]

So they do this seance. After the seance, there is noticeably less activity and nine months in to having lived there. This is all within nine months. Apparently, Bruce moves out and a new housemate moved in named Cindy. She was not a fan of Mary's at all.

[Christine]

Oh, Mary just can't catch a break with these tenants.

[M]

She's like, I'm stuck here. You can leave if you don't like it.

[Christine]

That's the problem. Like, I'm like, here, ride or die. You gotta make, make it work. Not me.

[M]

Well, so Cindy pretty much immediately was like, there's a woman in my window. Like, I, I hate this. Please make it stop.

[Christine]

I'm not having this. There's a woman in my window. Oh, yeah. Did we not tell you about me?

[M]

Oops. She loves the view from up there. So Cindy claimed that there was a woman in her window multiple times and would describe the woman and it happened to look exactly like the woman from Epi's dream. And you know, in the window.

[Christine]

Oh, no.

[M]

All of a sudden I feel like EPI was like, I kind of get why Bruce didn't say to me, because now I don't want to say anything.

[Christine]

Yeah, agree with you. I agree with you.

[M]

I think it's like, oh, how the turntables.

[Christine]

You know, how the turntables. That's right.

[M]

So Hallow weekend, 1981.

[Christine]

Oh, what a time this is now.

[M]

I mean, this is their first Halloween here and they have a literal ghost. And the Alexandria Journal actually did a fluff piece on their house for spooky season, which is fun.

[Christine]

Okay, that's fun.

[M]

So other people know about it and everything seems light hearted enough. Although I guess Cindy knows because she opened up the Alexandria Journal that day, I bet, and was like, what?

[Christine]

Well, that makes sense. Cindy was probably like, jesus Christ. Okay, that explains a lot.

[M]

Well, eventually she moves out and then two new housemates move in together. It's two guys named Joe and Evans with an S. Okay. And their dogs. They all move into the house. So it's now. Wow, a zoo. I guess there.

[Christine]

I love that this couple's like, actually, let's bring in more animals and people. Let's. Instead of like getting rid of one person, let's add four more beings to the house.

[M]

At this point I'd be like, Mary, you pay part of the rent and then I'll seriously just be the two of us. During this time, the activity was very minimal. And I, I remember in the article it said something like, Joe and Evans, I think, were younger. It became a bit of a party pad. And so I think no one was paying attention. If there's like loud music and people coming in and out all the time, I think it just right, you know, nothing was really going on. It stayed that way for many months. But then it picked up again and this time it felt very threatening. One time, EPI fell down the stairs and swore that the rug had been pulled out from under her.

[Christine]

Oh, no.

[M]

She's probably like, why are all these frat guys in my house all of a sudden?

[Christine]

Yeah. Actually, all of this sounds really bad. I would probably. I mean, maybe not push someone down the stairs. That's a little much. But, like, I get it. I don't know. I. I knock a few glasses and plates over. Yeah.

[M]

And, you know. You know, like, if they know that this is a haunted house and there's a bunch of, like, young guys drinking, someone probably said something offensive about her. I mean, you know, this place is haunted by.

[Christine]

Not a chance.

[M]

You know, something stupid.

[Christine]

The world. That. That's not true. Yeah. I agree with you.

[M]

Yeah. It's 100. Someone who would buy a condom costume instead of a Frankenstein costume, for sure. And Mary could smell it. And she was like, get out of my house.

[Christine]

And like to comment and then like, to think, like, oh, she died by suicide. Who knows what kind of comments that was all about? Yeah.

[M]

Especially in the 80s. Yeah.

[Christine]

Recipe for disaster. Yeah.

[M]

So another time that it felt threatening was that in the shower. While in the shower.

[Christine]

This is a bad start.

[M]

Yeah, I. I was like, what? I haven't read these notes in two weeks. And I was like, what am I about to say? While in the shower, her. The bathroom door opened by itself, and she had to, like, lean out of the shower to push it closed. The door opened again, she had to lean out and push it closed. And then it kept happening. So, like, your whole shower's around for a. First of all.

[Christine]

First of all, water alone, perfectly warm, and that sucks.

[M]

And it just kept happening, but it just felt very menacing. And the way that EPI described it was like. It was like, this is the first time she's ever interacted with me when I'm, like, naked and vulnerable. That was. Yeah, those were the words. Negative.

[Christine]

Yeah. I don't love that. I really don't.

[M]

Then the kitchen kept having the rotten smell again.

[Christine]

Oh, no.

[M]

One night, Joe and Evans were home alone, and they heard a noise that was. Apparently, there's a quote as loud as a bullhorn. And then the other guy said, like a bull or an elephant in a tin can factory. That's as loud. What a specific way to say that.

[Christine]

One of them's moving on up to the Alexandria Journal any day now. That. With that kind of vocabulary. Wow.

[M]

Beautiful. Absolutely.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[M]

But they were by themselves, and all of a sudden they heard this crazy sound. And despite being. Despite being alone, they swore by it. And I'm sure EPI and Gary were like, we get it. We Believe that.

[Christine]

Yeah. Welcome to. Welcome to our lives. Welcome.

[M]

What people started thinking was really weird, especially, like, their surrounding friends. EPI and Gary had lived with this thing for like a over a year now, I think, and they had always seemed fine with it. But out of nowhere, even though they're in their 20s, Eppie made a will. Uh, oh, so I mean, the fact that there. It's making all these sounds that sound like a bull in something factory. The door keeps opening and closing while they're in the shower. Maybe someone got pushed down the stairs. Like, it just feels menacing now. And the fact that Eppie wrote a will makes me think that there were a lot more things that happened that we don't know about.

[Christine]

Right. Especially if she had that, like, really chilling dream where she, like, encountered that woman and had an actual conversation with her. Like, who knows if another one happened or.

[M]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Or if she lunged again, you know? I don't know.

[M]

It also makes you wonder, like, was Mary ever nice to her, or was that a ploy to get closer?

[Christine]

Right, good point. Like, was it a phony? Oh, yuck, that's creepy. I'd even thought of that.

[M]

Like, she showed her true colors in the dream and then was playing nice to get closer so she could.

[Christine]

Okay, we can be friends, but I'll still be flirting with your husband while you're at work, Whatever that means.

[M]

Yeah. And then try to push you down the stairs. I don't know. Then one night, they all go out for to a party, and when they come back. Oh, my God, I forgot about this part. Oh, Christine.

[Christine]

Oh. Oh, no.

[M]

This is why. Okay, okay. I'm touching on your. Your turf now.

[Christine]

Oh, okay. Okay.

[M]

This is intrigued. A first for me on my end.

[Christine]

Okay.

[M]

They all go out to a party, and they came back home and went to sleep, and a fire started in the kitchen. Instead of it smoking, a fire finally ignited.

[Christine]

Out of the sink, I guess.

[M]

Out of the sink. We don't know where the fire started, but it was somewhere in the kitchen.

[Christine]

Okay.

[M]

The fire grew out of control almost instantly. And Joe and Evans are able to escape. No, but EPI and Gary do not survive.

[Christine]

Okay, so you hear living among the ghosts, and you. You bring me. Hey, this is the first story where a ghost murdered someone.

[M]

Yeah, I mean, for a while they lived with them.

[Christine]

That is actually. I mean, of all the scary stories. That's terrible and terrifying. So you really nailed it with that.

[M]

I rem thinking for Halloween, this was going to be like.

[Christine]

It's a really different story. That's a Creepy one. I'm not going to lie. Holy. She died. They died. Both of them.

[M]

Yeah. Yeah. And when fire officials. This is one of those sad, fun facts.

[Christine]

The.

[M]

When fire officials arrived, the shift commander on duty that responded to the call was the same one who came to the house when Mary died and even responded that. Now both deaths that have happened in this house happened on a Sunday before dark on.

[Christine]

Oh, my God.

[M]

So it's. I. I wonder if it was like Mary's anniversary or something like that.

[Christine]

Well, it wasn't Halloween, was it, that they. Oh, right.

[M]

It wasn't.

[Christine]

Yeah, it wasn't.

[M]

No.

[Christine]

That is just beyond. Dude. What?

[M]

Yeah.

[Christine]

I don't think I ever knew there was a story like that. I mean, that's probably why there's not much on it. Cuz like.

[M]

Yeah, well, who wants to report, you know, know, quote, factually about like a ghost murdering somebody?

[Christine]

Zack Baggins does for sure. And I think he probably just doesn't even know about it. But it's like once they die, there's not much else you can do at this point. It's like the story's like kind of over unless something happens with the next people who live there.

[M]

And. And I wonder how they even got the information about EPI and Gary's haunts before this. Because usually you would think, like, let's go back in time and see how this all played out or why we think a ghost is involved.

[Christine]

Yeah. I wonder if like the brute, if Bruce or one of them told the story. I don't know.

[M]

Yeah. I wonder if it was like a compilation of everybody else's memories of them.

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah. Like, oh, this happened and this happened. Yeah. Ooh. And then there was that article about the house. Right?

[M]

Yeah.

[Christine]

The floor. Yeah. Yeah.

[M]

So the fire was ultimately deemed an accident. However, it was mentioned that it began directly above where Mary was found.

[Christine]

Jesus Christ.

[M]

It was right where she passed. It was on the same. It was on a Sunday before dawn, just like when Mary died. And the same shift commander came out to the house for both calls, which is just extra eerie.

[Christine]

So chilling. Yeah, it's eerie. It like whether it, whether it's a coincidence or not, like, it's very eerie.

[M]

Yeah. They. After they passed, newspapers ran with articles titled Ghost suspected as cause of fire that Killed two People. So like it was actually, you know, headlined or I don't know about headline, but it was written it with the thought in mind that like a ghost killed.

[Christine]

It was already like part of the story. Yeah. Wow.

[M]

This is. These headlines that I'm saying headlines. I don't know what the right word is, but the titles of these articles saying that the ghost might have been the murderer. This makes this case or this story one of the few times that something paranormal is suspected as a cause of death. In some cases, someone's. I mean, isn't that crazy?

[Christine]

It is because sometimes we talk about that where we're like, oh, do you think, like, if a night, like, remember we've talked about when people's like tools or. Or knives or other weapons, like, start moving and you hear those stories where like, a knife flies right past your head and sticks into the wall. And you. And I have always wondered, like, is it because they can't kill you? Like, is there some sort of universal law where they, like, can't exactly kill you? Or is it like. Like they're playing with you? Or is it like. But this is like.

[M]

Yeah, that's weirdly.

[Christine]

Feels chilling. I mean, and the fact that, like, maybe they could have escaped, but they didn't. And so maybe it was. Oh, it's awful. It's awful.

[M]

I mean, like, the fact that Joe and Evans. I mean, they. They said that by the time they woke up, the house was fully on fire. Like, there was no going back in and helping anybody.

[Christine]

Wow, that's so crazy.

[M]

See, so it could have been Mary that ended up killing them. We don't know. But there. And there could have been other spirits on the property. Or to be honest, it could have been an electrical problem or like a. It sounds like I. I don't know enough about if they ever called the plumber for the sink or if they ever called an electrician to see if there was any, like, old loose wires or.

[Christine]

I mean, I like to think that that one guy who was like, trying to find evidence at least like, dug into some of that, you know? Yeah, I hope he was.

[M]

I hope he did, but. Because it could have just been. I mean, there have. The closest thing we ever had to a house fire. Knock on wood. This is all we ever have to deal with. But when I was a kid, it actually felt very eerie to me. I remember waking up in the middle of the night telling myself I needed to go stand in the hallway and truly.

[Christine]

Oh, yeah.

[M]

If there were. If there was a ring camera to, like, catch this, it would have looked so eerie because I just stood in the hallway and just looked at a light for like five minutes and then it caught on fire. And. Dude, isn't that cr. Like, I just had a hunch and.

[Christine]

I don't Know m. Now that I hear it again, I'm thinking maybe you set it on fire by staring at it.

[M]

If on a ring camera, it would have looked like I telepathically started a.

[Christine]

Fire for sure, like pyrokinesis.

[M]

But I. I remember just feeling like I needed to be awake, feeling like I needed to go in the hallway and just look at the light, and it just ignited, and I immediately turned the light switch off. I was like a kid. I know what to do. And I screamed, mom. And the firehouse came, and basically there was some random electrical wiring, faulty thing that happened.

[Christine]

Somebody woke you up.

[M]

I know.

[Christine]

Know what do you think it was? Or do you think it was just your own, like, intuition?

[M]

I mean, there's always the theory that it was future me. There's. All right.

[Christine]

I do like that theory, because that feels like right now you could be like, oh, yeah, I better go back and tell myself.

[M]

I do that all the time I had. I'm like, in case this is the moment, you need to wake up and go do that too.

[Christine]

Sometimes I think about, like, a moment in time, and I'm like, oh, let me just, like, pop in real quick and say, like, hey.

[M]

Yeah, I. So it could have been. That could have been my grandpa. There was also a lot of ghosts. There was. Was like, I told you, there's, like, that really quick on the prop.

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah. Oh, yes.

[M]

There was that one ghost in my bedroom. He might have known something was going to happen, but it was very. I should have not been awake. I should have not been out of my room. Why would I look at that light the way that.

[Christine]

I mean, that's just creepy, dude. And your mom finds you out there.

[M]

Like, I screamed until she woke up, and I was like, get out here. There was a fire.

[Christine]

There was a fire. Jesus Christ.

[M]

And also, like, I turned off the light so quickly, it didn't really. The ceiling looked a little, like, singed, but. But you. Like, there.

[Christine]

I mean, thank God.

[M]

Like, but I know the fact that it happens that eerily tells me if I didn't wake up, we would have died.

[Christine]

Yeah, like, there's a reason you woke up and. And did it right away for sure. Like, there's no other way. I. Did I ever tell you my. My fire story? I'm sure I did on the podcast, but, like, tell it again for many years. I probably haven't told it, but when I was young, we had. My parents were divorced also, and at my dad's house, we were there, I think, one evening a week on A school night. And then one night a week on the weekends was like the custody arrangement. And on the weekends we were not allowed to like see a friend or like go to a friend's house. That was just the arrangement. Like you're coming to see your dad and stepmom and you're not doing social thing. Like, there's no social things and there's no homework. So all that has to get done at your mom's. So we'd like go and be like, okay, we're here to participate in whatever ever. Like we lose. We lose agency here. We just show up and we're like, okay. So that's how it was my whole life. And I never, ever, ever, ever had visited a friend like on a Saturday. I had a terrible social life, obviously, because it would be like a Saturday. And I'm like, I'm not allowed to leave my house for like, I'm not. And so just hang out in the graveyard sucked. No, it wasn't even the graveyard house. That was a fun house. My dad's house was out in the creepy ass woods. And so then I'm like stuck there. And one day I went over there on a Saturday and for some reason it was like, I think it was eighth grade. And I said to my. I know it was maybe ninth grade. I said to my dad and stepmom, like, I was not this ballsy usually, but I was like, I want to go stay over at Renee's house for sleepover. And they were like, absolutely not. And for some reason I like doubled down and I was like, I'm going, You can't stop me. I don't know. We just were like, gonna have a fun night. And I was like, I'm. I'm going. You can't tell me. So finally I wore them down and they dropped me off. And I remember like, we had a really fun sleepover. And the next morning I slept until like 11am and I woke up freaking out because I'm like, oh my God, my dad and stepmom were gonna kill me. They were gonna pick me up at like 6:30 in the morning. And like, you know, so I like wake up and I'm looking at my phone and there's just like nothing on my phone. And I'm like, oh, maybe they forgot about me. So then I'm like, hell yeah. So then we just spend the rest of the day hanging out. And eventually my stepmom calls and I'm like, too scared to answer her. And she calls again. I finally pick up and she. She's like, oh, did you hear what happened? And I'm like, from who? I just. You forgot I existed.

[M]

I. Did you for. Did you hear over here that I'm waiting for you?

[Christine]

Yeah. Where are you? And so I'm like, okay, what happened? And she goes, oh. Apparently what happened was in the middle of the night, a. An electrical fire started in our ceiling on the second floor in a light switch kind of like yours, or a light fixture in the hallway outside my bedroom room. And my room was like completely destroyed. Like, my bedroom is completely destroyed. And my dad and stepmom were having their bedroom renovated. So they were actually sleeping like it was like a really. It's like a short but like long house. So they were at the. All the way at the other end in the guest room, and they didn't even notice it. They actually woke up when a fire truck drove up the driveway. Dad apparently stood up and looked out the window in his bathrobe and stood, said, why is there a Greyhound bus in our driveway? Like, he literally didn't know what was going on. My brother is like asleep. I said, yes. Oh no. He was at Latin convention. That's what saved him. He was at Latin convention.

[M]

I've never heard anything more Alexander Schieffer than so nerdy.

[Christine]

I know. And it say. And then they. They basically the whole second floor had to be. It was like completely destroyed. And they were like. They were like, yeah, if you hadn't been. You probably wouldn't have been in the fire, but smoke inhalation probably would have. Gotcha. And I'm like, what the. And so anyway, that's my story of also the time that I escaped fire somehow. But it was the one night and I remember going like, I won't. I won't give up on this. Like, this is a hill I will die on. Because I think I was going to.

[M]

I'm surprised that Renee has not over romanticized that. I will not give up on us.

[Christine]

I. You know what? I feel like maybe she doesn't even remember, you know, those stories where you're just.

[M]

She remembers everything.

[Christine]

She probably does. She probably remembers more than I do.

[M]

Question. Were the renovations the reason or.

[Christine]

Or no, it was like. No, they. Their room was like downstairs and they were just like redoing like the bathroom or something down there. Interesting. And then on the second floor, like, we just had our bedrooms up there. That's it. And a bathroom. And for some reason that fixture up there. It's like an old ass house too. And it like started in the attic. And my stepmom was like, oh, my furs. And I was like, christ, Renee, can I live with you? Anyway, I don't think I. I might.

[M]

Have known if you told that story. It was so long ago.

[Christine]

It was probably like the first week of the podcast because I was like, let. Let's all scary stories. M. And then we probably never told them again.

[M]

But I feel like that's so weird that we both have a. A light right outside of our bedroom.

[Christine]

Yeah, that's true. I never. Yeah, I didn't put it together. Yeah, I forgot. My brother's at Latin convention. That makes me laugh.

[M]

It makes everybody laugh. Don't worry. So, okay, the last thing I'm going to say about this haunting, because I thought we would need a pallet cleanser. I didn't know we would do it ourselves, because we're that good. But before Mary lived here, there actually was another person who lived here that was super interesting. Interesting. His name was Lt. Col. William Jordan or Will Jordan. And he was a test patient for MK Ultra.

[Christine]

What? Oh, my God.

[M]

And after his time being tested on Hang on, my dog learned to hit the bells and he wants to go pee. We'll have to do it after this.

[Christine]

He's so smart.

[M]

Hang on, puppy.

[Christine]

He's so smart.

[M]

One second. You can wait. Okay, so, yeah, he was a test patient for MK Ultra. And after his time being tested on, he suffered a lot. Like, his. After his time being there, he was having, like, grandma epilepsy.

[Christine]

Wow.

[M]

He potentially had reproductive issues that was hurting his wife. And he actually lived in this house, it's Alexandria. He wanted to be close to D.C. so he could try to get medical follow ups for patients. He was, like, protesting and trying to campaign for MKUltra patients to, like, have their voices heard. Anyway, so some like to attribute the added dark energy of the hauntings to, like, whatever he was dealing with. But I thought it was interesting.

[Christine]

That's fascinating. And also, like, to think the neighbor was like, hey, you want to know what goes? What happened at this house? And Bruce is like, no. And it's like, yo, yeah. Even if you don't believe in ghosts, like, there's so much interesting that happened. Like, I know it could be an about about it.

[M]

They could have been like, the guy who created Tootsie Rolls lived here. And I'm like, that's awesome.

[Christine]

You know what? Can you imagine?

[M]

Oh, Christine, I need to talk. Speaking this Halloween. This is the episode to do it. I discovered a new old people candy. And I'm Obsessed.

[Christine]

You know, I love old people candy.

[M]

Mary Janes.

[Christine]

I don't know that one.

[M]

It takes my breath away. I literally. It should be getting here today. I literally.

[Christine]

It's not a marijuana situation, right? It's that old that it's not referenced to marijuana. Marijuana.

[M]

It's. Hang on, puppy. He's gotta be. It's peanut butter taffy. Which sounds gross. I hate taffy. I can't say I hate Taffy too. It's basically a peanut butter Tootsie Roll.

[Christine]

Okay, I feel like I could get into that. It.

[M]

It. I. I was just in Florida. I was hanging out with my extended family and one of my cousins. Cousins. Cousins, cousins. Was like, oh, have you ever had Mary Jane's? Because we were at like one of those old candy shops and she was like, just try one. And I tried one and I had to circle back and get a whole ass bag. And. And now that that bag has been long gone and I can't stop thinking about her and her being Mary Jane. And so I literally bought a like a restaurant store bulk size. Like it's literally like a five pound bag. A five pound bag.

[Christine]

You're gonna be that weirdo on Halloween dressed as a condom.

[M]

Oh, I'm not sharing them.

[Christine]

I know, but like imagine if you just were like that creepy neighbor, you know?

[M]

No, I give the good candy. But I. That will be my personal bag. Like that is my. Now whenever I'm doing notes like I always have like a little treat to like pick at. That's going to be my new thing for a while.

[Christine]

I'm gonna look them up real quick. Hold on. Married.

[M]

They're so good. And then I also tried a squirrel nut zipper. Forget it. I know that band.

[Christine]

I thought that was just a band.

[M]

It's a candy too.

[Christine]

Really? Oh my gosh.

[M]

It's like.

[Christine]

Oh, I do like those. Are they peanut butter or. I'm sorry. Peanuts in them?

[M]

I think so. The. In, in the. In the.

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah.

[M]

It's like caramel vanilla and some sort of nut. Peanuts.

[Christine]

I think I just love a crunchy candy. Crunchy old timey. Oh my God, this Mary Janes are so fun. Oh, I've seen these.

[M]

They're so good.

[Christine]

You know, I never really like clocked the name. I think I've just seen the, the little.

[M]

It literally it tastes like Butterfinger. But it's the con. It's this texture of a Tootsie Roll.

[Christine]

It's Butterfinger. That sounds good to me. I like that.

[M]

Rocked my. Nobody go out and buy them because they're hard to find. If you. If you take them. I'm gonna have a problem.

[Christine]

Dare you?

[M]

Everyone just know that I'm eating them. And I'm eating good. That's all you gotta know.

[Christine]

That's all you gotta know. And don't even question it.

[M]

Anyway. That is. How do you say. The haunting of Barrel Road.

[Christine]

Oh my gosh. That is quite a story. The MK Ultra is quite a twist. I feel like. Yeah, that and I. I. Who knows what it means if anything. But like all of these stories back to back in the same house is like pretty strange.

[M]

Mm.

[Christine]

I think. Think.

[M]

I think so.

[Christine]

It feels like has a lot of history. Either way.

[M]

All you need is an alien abduction or a Cryptid and then you've got the full my side of. And that's why we drink going there.

[Christine]

You're 100% right. And. And then the fire.

[M]

And I. I am aware. Yes. And the fur. I am aware of the MK Ultra topic and how badly people want me to cover it. I'm aware. But I'm telling you just like how I usually do 6 to 12 hours of notes like that will take me.

[Christine]

Hey, remember the 150 page document and made for this show today or whatever it's.

[M]

That would be a one. That's a QAnon situation. So.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[M]

And a lot of government documents.

[Christine]

Yeah. And then it's like the dry type of sources drive just like watching ghost adventures.

[M]

I will do it eventually. It's just. I'm very intimidated by that topic.

[Christine]

It's a doozy. Will you go let your dog pee? I'm gonna go let myself pee. Okay.

[M]

Well I'll do like a. Well, I'll pee.

[Christine]

We'll have a little pee break.

[M]

Okay.

[Christine]

Halloween.

[M]

You know, there was a time where I was feeling real confident about my bank account and I was like, who? I don't even have to look in there. I just know how much money is in there and it is a lot. Just kidding. I've never actually been that confident. Well, let's pretend I did for sure though think that I had more money than I did. And when I looked at my bank account I was like, where did it go? What happened? Secret little surprise subscriptions that I started years ago and then forgot to cancel is what happened. All of a sudden the money I thought I had missing because it had all just been going to subscriptions and I didn't know what was going on. Now I'm going to worry about that anymore because I have rocket money. Rocket money is a personal Finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings. So you can actually have savings. Everybody. Because I thought I had some. It wasn't there. Now I got Rocket Money. I got savings. Whoa. Rocket Money has saved users over 2.5 billion with a B dollars, including over $880 million in canceled subscriptions alone. And their 10 million members save up to 740 a year when they use all of the app's premium features. You can cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money. Go to Rocket Money.com Drink today. That's RocketMoney.com Drink RocketMoney.com Drink hello everybody. It is Juniper. Guess what I'm here to talk about everybody? It is Smalls. And I sound like a big scary ghost because it is Halloween and I can't think of a yummier treat than Smalls in my belly. In case you're wondering, hey Juniper, what is Smalls? Well, let me tell you, besides my favorite smack. Nope. Snack. Whoopsies. I'm a cat. Meow. Smalls cat food is protein packed recipes made with preservative free ingredients you'd find in your fridge. And it is delivered right to your door. So it is that simple. You can just play and play and play with your fellow very, very, very furry little feline and and then you hear a knock on the door. It's us, Smalls. It's a favorite. Just share some info about your cat's diet, health and food preferences and then Smalls puts together a personalized personalized sampler for your cat. And if you're still not a believer in Smalls, get this. Forbes ranked Smalls the best overall cat food while buds feed. Said my cats when completely ballistic for for this stuff and I gotta agree with Buzzfeed, they know what they're talking about over there. I give it two paws up. Actually all four. Now I'm on my back. Pet my tummy. And after switching to smalls, 88 of cat owners reported overall health improvements, which is a very, very, very big deal. You will get 60 off your first order plus free shipping when you head to smalls.com drink one last time. That's 60 off your first order plus free Shipping when you head to smols.com drink.

[Christine]

That was a fun intermission.

[M]

Thank you. Well, happy Halloween. We went down memory lane together.

[Christine]

Oh, and today's a new moon in Libra, so yeah, it feels like a nice little refresh. Yeah, perf all right. Hello, everyone. We're back from intermission where we realized it's a new moon and we were discussing sentimentality and the items that we are keeping and getting rid of, etc. So if you would like to listen to that, you can go to our patreon. Otherwise, I have a crime story for you today. I of. Oh, yep.

[M]

Hang on.

[Christine]

Wait for it. Hang on.

[M]

Yes.

[Christine]

Oh, that's spooky. Oh, it is.

[M]

Where were you on the night of.

[Christine]

I mean, now I feel like I'm in an alien ship.

[M]

Okay, go for it.

[Christine]

Yeah, it's. Look, it looks spooky. So here's the thing though. I didn't remember remember that it, like, I obviously didn't remember that it was Halloween episode. My brain is just so out of it these days. I brought a story that is scary. Oh, Keiko, you look like. You do look like you're in an interrogation right now with like a microphone or something.

[M]

I was. I was. I'm trying to keep the vibe alive. Anyway, go, keep going.

[Christine]

Sorry, the vibe is vibing. Don't worry about it. I forgot it was Halloween episode, so I brought a story that. That is scary, but it's just as scary as every other true crime. So. Okay, it's not a Halloween story. Even though I probably also asked you what you wanted for Halloween.

[M]

I did.

[Christine]

What did you say?

[M]

I don't remember, so it's fine.

[Christine]

Oh, I.

[M]

We'll never know.

[Christine]

Well, maybe I wrote it down somewhere and I'll find it in like a month. And then at Christmas time, I'll do it.

[M]

My Christmas wish. Yeah.

[Christine]

Yay. It'll be the something about the Grinch. Probably. Yeah. So. Okay, I apologize. I clearly. You know what? Probably, knowing me, I started a Google Doc for it and then just like, forgot about it. But. So that means there is a chance I'll find it and do it.

[M]

I trust. I. It'll. It'll happen.

[Christine]

Okay. So instead, I've brought to you today the murder of Sheila Von. Oh my gosh, she has quite a name. Sheila Von Wiesmack. And yeah, it's hyphenated and multiple words. I'm hoping. I'm saying that right. On August 13, 2014, a taxi driver stopped outside a luxurious resort in Bali, Indonesia. He had just finished dropping off some guests and was about to drive away when two people approached him, presumably guests at the resort. They said, oh, hey, can we put some luggage in the trunk? And he popped the trunk. They said, we're checking out. We'll be right back with the rest of Our stuff. He waits 30 minutes, but they never come back.

[M]

Oh, and they always warn you at an. At an airport, they always say, if someone leaves unattended luggage, you better call for help.

[Christine]

Yeah, that is never a good thing. And so, of course, he starts to feel this, like. Actually, you know what? The vibe that I got from, like, researching this is that he wasn't worried necessarily at this point. He was more just like, ugg. And like, took the luggage out to be like, I'm just gonna give this back to the hotel and be like, tell them I'm leaving. Like, I don't want to wait any longer. Basically gets up, he pops a trunk, and he finds a suitcase inside. The suitcase is in horrific shape. It is held shut with duct tape. It is wrapped in a white bed sheet. And there is a red substance oozing out of the suitcase and soaking into this sheet.

[M]

Oh, God. Okay, hang on.

[Christine]

Oh, my God. How did you do that?

[M]

I'm just pressing glue and wrong a lot.

[Christine]

Oh, you're pressing. I was like, is there a police setting? Why would they do that? That's a blue M is flashing a blue and red light, which is literally the next line. They called the police.

[M]

It was my way of saying, call somebody. We need help.

[Christine]

Yes, immediate assistance needed. That was crazy. I really thought it. It was, like, really good. I thought it was effect on the remote. And I went, so it has police effect. That feels like a dangerous thing to put on. Like, it does, but a consumer item. Okay, so let's see. So he, of course, is horrified, immediately calls the police, literally the next line. And he and you were both right to do that, because when the police unwrapped the suitcase from the bed sheet and duct tape, they found inside a woman's body. This woman was a white middle aged woman who had been stuffed so tightly into the suitcase that the duct tape was used to wrap it closed and keep it contained. Her face was bloody and badly bruised, suggesting a violent attack. When she was killed, she was transported to the local medical examiner to determine her cause of death while the police began their investigation at the resort. And they believed maybe because of the way this suitcase had been dropped off and everything, that this woman was. Was a. A guest at the resort. But there was also the possibility, of course, that she was just visiting someone there or maybe that they were just disposed of there. Resort management, as you can imagine, this feels very white lotus. They were like, yeah, let's figure this out and wrap this up right away because we don't want, like, murder news you know, we don't want to be in the news for.

[M]

We don't want the vibes to be off. Yeah, yeah.

[Christine]

The vibes are really important to us here. Do you smell the patchouli we've got going on? Yeah, yeah, it's. It's definitely not a luxury resorts. First, first order of business. To, to. I don't know, to not. I don't know. I've lost my train of thought.

[M]

No, I, I get what you're saying. I'm, I'm with you. I'm with you. You get it. They're just, it's just a gross wealthy area or gross wealthy space that's like, okay, this is kind of in our way. Get the stuff out of here.

[Christine]

Yeah, let's like sweep up this mess, please. We have guests trying to enjoy their steak, which I understand is the business.

[M]

You're trying to just keep it. No, keep it real.

[Christine]

And also it's like having seen shows like Whitelist, like, well then what are the employees supposed to do? They're just like, I'm here for the job, you know, Like, I don't know. So of course the resort management is like, okay, yes, let's figure this out. And you know, if the killer remained at large, then like they were in even more trouble. Tourist community would be threatened. Community would be threatened. So they immediately pulled out the passports they keep. Because the resort office would keep copies of everyone's passports for identity verification and in case of emergencies like this one. And investigators started searching through them. They were looking for a white middle aged woman who bore any resemblance to the woman in the suitcase. And they finally landed on 62 year old Sheila von Wiesmack, a tourist from the US who had been staying at the resort for roughly a week. So they asked the resort staff, when did you last see Sheila? And they said, said only a few hours ago, between 2 and 3 in the morning. She was in the lobby.

[M]

Okay.

[Christine]

So they're like, well, let's check. So they call her room. There's no answer. So I'm assuming this is starting to get like suspicious. Slightly panicky. Yeah, suspicious. Nobody answers. So the resort lets them into the room and when they open the room, they don't see anybody there, but they do see the scene of a violent strike struggle. There is shattered glass everywhere. There is blood spatter on the bed. The glass, one bit of glass was connected to like a metal handle. So it looked like it had been like a weapon that had been made of like metal and glass. Like maybe a bowl or vase. And the police suspected that that was the murder weapon. So the room was empty, like I said, and Sheila remained unaccounted for. So now they're thinking, well, then the odds of her being the one in the suitcase are getting higher and higher. And it seemed likely that she would be confirmed as the victim. But police quickly learned that not only was this a murder investigation, but also a missing persons case, because Sheila was staying at the resort with her 18 year old daughter, Heather Mack.

[M]

Okay.

[Christine]

Heather had been born in 1996, the daughter of Sheila von Wiesemak, an influential socialite, and Sheila's husband, acclaimed jazz composer, James Mac. Just like a very influential power couple, wealthy type background, she had almost like a fairy tale childhood. She grew up in Oak Park, Illinois, which is a really historical and affluent village outside of Chicago. James had previous marriages and other children, but Heather was his only child with Sheila. And they were extremely close. Her parents doted on her. They had very high profile careers, but they were very attentive and extremely close with her. And people who knew the family described Heather as a daddy's girl because she was always very, very close with her father. The Max loved to travel and they always took her on these far away destinations to luxurious resorts and far away places. Heather's life was the envy of all of her friends. But when Heather was just 10 years old, they went on a vac to Athens, Greece. And her father had a pulmonary embolism. Yeah, a blood clot in his lungs. And it occurred in their hotel room.

[M]

Oh, my God.

[Christine]

So everyone saw, everyone saw. And Sheila and Heather had to witness this helplessly as he died in their hotel room. And Sheila was 10 years old. So this is like, oh my God. Scarring beyond belief. James was a composer, a conductor, a producer, a teacher, a chairman for the music department at Harold Washington College. He was just like a very influential and, and big Persona. He was, he left behind like quite a legacy, especially dying kind of out of the blue. And he also ensured that Sheila and Heather would be financially secure upon his death. And so he had already prepared, you know, the will and all that.

[M]

So.

[Christine]

So of course Heather was deeply devastated and so was Sheila. But over time, they kind of bonded over their shared grief. As Heather grew into a teenager, though, she started to struggle more with the loss and the trauma of witnessing the loss. And she experienced severe depression through high school. She began staying out late at parties, drinking with her friends. She would skip school. She would run away for days at a time sometimes, and you know, she had access to all this money Right. So, like, she's not only participating in this lifestyle, she's also, like, actively able to afford it and fund it for her friends. And, you know, that certainly doesn't help. So before long, you know, she's. She's really getting into trouble. She's skipping school, she's running away for days at a time. And she and her mother, their relationship grow very strong. Drained. Once Heather even stole Sheila's credit card to book an expensive hotel room in downtown Chicago. And she threw a lavish party with her friends and her boyfriend. And Sheila actually saw Heather's photos when they posted them to social media, because this was in the social media days. I mean, we've already entered the Facebook era. And she flipped. Yeah.

[M]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Which, you know. Well, if you, you know it. Yeah, if you upload them to Facebook, it's gonna. Yeah, it's gonna happen. So she called the police to break up the party because these were being posted as the party was going on. So she freaks out and Sheila's had enough, and she has Heather arrested.

[M]

Oh, Sheila.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[M]

Okay.

[Christine]

Yeah, Wait, hang on. There it is. Is holy. We finally have, like the perfect set. And it's just in your kitchen. No, I'm serious. I'm in front of a empty wall. Yours is cool. Okay, so Heather was arrested, and Sheila hoped that this would be like a scared straight type thing. Yeah, you know, like, maybe she'll be discouraged now from future partying and sneaking out. Out. But surprise, surprise, that's not what happens. Sheila did not like this boyfriend, by the way, Tommy, or any of Heather's friends. Tommy was a. His name's Tommy Schaefer. He was a 21 year old aspiring rapper and musician. He reminded Heather a lot of her father. He was a musical artist. He was black, by the way. Her mother was white. And so there was like that tension there as well where she lost her father, mother, and. Yeah, she had, you know, and she felt like this disconnect. And I say that because her friend said, you know, Tommy was so similar to her father. There was like that bond there she had with him. And he was talented, he was dedicated to his art. He was very smart, he was very handsome. But of course, mom did not approve. She thought he and the rest of Heather's friends enabled Heather's drinking and other risky choices. So she told her sister and brother, Debbie and Bill, that Heather hung out with some terrible kids, quote, unquote. That was like, I see the word she used for them. She was constantly worrying about Heather, wondering where she was, who she was with when she'd be home, if she was safe. And she tried finding a therapist for Heather. She tried grounding her. She took away her phone. She just could not figure out a way to help her. And Sheila realized she couldn't make any difference in Heather's life when there was such an emotional distance between them, There was such a rift that she knew, like, I can't reach her for from here. So with absolutely no idea what to do, she decided to do, to kind of go back in time and do what they always love to do, which was go on a trip. And she surprised Heather with a two week vacation in Bali. And Heather was thrilled. So they left on August 4th. But a week later, halfway into the trip, Sheila was dead. And now Heather is missing.

[M]

Okay.

[Christine]

And that is where we find ourselves in the story.

[M]

Rough. Okay. That's very scary.

[Christine]

The medical examiner confirmed that the woman discovered in the suitcase was indeed Sheila. It was determined she had been beaten violently to death with some sort of object. She had suffered severe facial injuries and fractures, and her neck was broken. There was some speculation that Heather might have run away in Bali on another rebellious streak and maybe fallen in with some dangerous people who, like, killed her mom and kidnapped her. Maybe something had happened like that, but the police weren't so sure because the resort, remember, where they were staying, was not exactly like a hotbed for crime. Like, this wasn't a thing that happened there.

[M]

There's patchouli.

[Christine]

Yeah, it's all that Pachuli. You remember? Yes. They spoke to the night clerk who had last seen Sheila alive in the early morning hours before her body was discovered. And the clerk said, said actually Sheila had come downstairs to the lobby between 2 and 3am Absolutely frantic. Sheila told the clerk that her teenage daughter was missing. Heather was not in her room, and Sheila couldn't find her anywhere at the resort. She'd been looking everywhere. And so while the clerk prepared to report Heather missing, remember, we're in Indonesia, by the way. Like, we're not in the US either. So they're like out of the country.

[M]

Yeah.

[Christine]

And so she's. The clerk is. Is preparing to report her missing, when suddenly Heather walks into the lobby and on her arm is Tommy Schaer, her boyfriend.

[M]

What? In Indonesia? How'd he get there? Okay.

[Christine]

Mommy's credit card.

[M]

Right, Right.

[Christine]

Sheila flipped. Flipped, as you can imagine. I mean. Yeah, it just blows my mind. So Sheila was furious. Heather told her Tommy had flown in to surprise her to join the vacation as a surprise. But Sheila did not believe it. She was like this is an expensive flight. Never mind the cost of the resort. Resort. She accused Heather of stealing her credit card to pay for it. And Heather was like, no, he just wants to surprise me. And this argument is escalating.

[M]

He wants to surprise me with your money. What are you talking about? That's like saying, no. He wanted to buy me a present with your money, not with him.

[Christine]

Yeah, but I mean, that's, like, kind of a thing sometimes, isn't it? Like, I'll just. I'll just use this money. Well, I don't know. Listen, I don't know what it's like to be that way. So I don't know why I'm trying.

[M]

To pretend I could see some teenager just justifying or thinking that that's justifiable. And it's like.

[Christine]

I mean, right? They're like teenagers. It's like Romeo and Juliet. Their frontal lobes aren't for you. They're. They're out of their minds with hormones. Like, you know, they're making bad choices, and then they have access to all this money. She's gone through, like, severe trauma. And, like, this is just all a hotbed for disaster, I think. And I know because unfortunately it is, and we all know it. Okay, so she. Sheila was furious. Heather said, oh, he's just surprising me. And of course, this argument is escalating. Heather's so embarrassed that her mom's, like, throwing this fit in the lobby and this, like, everyone's just kind of, like, staring, trying not to stare. And finally, Sheila and Heather return to their room on the third floor, and Tommy's like, all right, peace. I'm going to the sixth floor. That's where my room is. And he. I wild. And he goes up to the sweet. The sixth floor. Later, Heather came back down to the lobby and asked the night clerk if they had any duct tape available.

[M]

Okay, so when I say, ah, because she's missing, what I should be saying.

[Christine]

Is, okay, I'm seeing.

[M]

I'm saying. I'm saying.

[Christine]

I'm saying you had the exact right thought process, though, which is like, oh, that's concerning.

[M]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Until it starts to be like, oh, shoot.

[M]

Yeah, oh, shoot.

[Christine]

But also like, oh, shoot. Either way, I guess, again, hot bed for disaster. Okay, so. So finally they go. And she comes down later. And remember, this was like 3am that this fight took place. So a few hours later is like 6:00am you know, it's like, okay, welcome downstairs. Halfway through your trip, you suddenly need a roll of duct tape. Whatever. So none of them. None of them were Seen again until Sheila's remains were recovered from that suit suitcase. And that is sort of like what they pieced together had happened before that. So the police launched a massive search for Heather and Tommy. Heather's passport had been recovered from her room at the resort, so she couldn't have left Indonesia. Photos of Heather and Tommy were broadcast by the media online and on TV back in the U.S. imagine this. Sheila's family followed the news of Sheila's violent death and Heather's dis, Like their niece's disappearance. You know, know, Sheila had that brother and sister that she was close with. So they're watching, like, their own sister's murder case happening on TV and then wondering, like, where their nieces. I mean, it's all just horrific. Just one day after Sheila's body was discovered on August 13, the owner of a motel in Bali called the police and he told them that Tommy and Heather were staying at his motel.

[M]

Oh, honestly, thank God for a source.

[Christine]

That clear like, like, amen. And also get this. He not only recognized their photos from the news, but they checked in using their real names and Sheila's credit card.

[M]

Big dummies. Oh, my God. Over here. Okay, well, hey, it makes our job a lot better. And by our job, I mean the police or something.

[Christine]

It makes our job to investigate and solve these crimes so much easier.

[M]

You know, it makes the case easier.

[Christine]

For others, I guess, but, yeah, fair enough. Yeah, but still, like, it's a good thing. I'm glad that the pieces kind of fit together.

[M]

But you would think if you're going to do something like that, you have. You would think you have a plan.

[Christine]

But you also think, you know, you're teenagers and you're dumb and you're in love, and nothing good comes of that, as far as I've learned in my life.

[M]

If I were. If I were on Law and Order and I played, obviously, Mariska Hargitay's, you know, partner for life, and she's never had anybody else.

[Christine]

Soulmate and twin flame. Right?

[M]

Yeah. And we just, in every scene is.

[Christine]

Us just snuggling electric.

[M]

Yeah, I know. So if I were on an episode, I feel like I would be that one who always said, I love when that happens. And then it, like, cuts the scene. But it's. Whenever there is a case where it's like teenagers use their real name, and then I would just go, I love when that happens. And then the next scene would be us just arresting the out of them.

[Christine]

It's be like, easy. Check.

[M]

It's easy. Because Then I can get right back to home with Mariska. You know what I mean?

[Christine]

That's right. Just back into those arms. I don't have those strong arms.

[M]

I can't even think of about it. Okay.

[Christine]

God. I know. Stop thinking about it. Put that condom costume back on. That'll shake you out of it. That'll shake all of us out of it. Oh, God. So he says. Okay. Tommy and Heather are staying at my motel. They use their real name. I'm not even that good of a sleuth. They use their real names and their mom's. Their dead mom's credit card.

[M]

Classic.

[Christine]

So classic. So Heather and Tommy were asleep in bed when the police arrived to arrest them. And when police asked for their story, they said, we were kidnapped by a violent gang.

[M]

Okay.

[Christine]

And the three of us planned a daring escape, but it went terribly wrong.

[M]

I hope they said we planned a daring escape.

[Christine]

A daring escape. I like to think it was like that. You know how, like, sometimes I say, ross dressed for less because it makes it funnier that I say the whole thing.

[M]

Right, right, right.

[Christine]

It just reminds me of that. That, like, oh, it was a daring escape. You better believe it. I also love that there's no detail. It's like, just trust me. It was daring.

[M]

Yeah. You don't have to know anything else. That's all. That's all I need to give you.

[Christine]

Yeah. The three of them planned this, but it went terribly wrong. Sheila was killed. Tommy and Heather took shelter in a motel to hide, unsure of whom they could trust. Okay. Unfortunately for Heather and Tommy, they weren't aware of exactly how much evidence the police already had on the case or on them in the case, which is, by the way, a lot of evidence, including dozens of surveillance cameras inside and outside the hotel.

[M]

These people fish in a barrel. And barrel spelled with a double R.

[Christine]

Fish in a barrel Road. And fish in a haunting on Barrel Road. So they had these dozens of surveillance cameras. They went through them and they found a fucking full story on camera. So the morning Sheila was murdered. And I actually have pictures for you. The morning Sheila was murdered, footage showed Heather and Sheila returning to their room on the third floor while Tommy went to his room on the sixth. Then the cameras followed Heather as she went up to Tommy's room on the sixth floor and back down. The couple went back and forth between their rooms several times, and then they were recorded leaving Heather's room with a large suitcase wrapped in a white sheet. Sheet. Which appeared identical to the one in the taxi cab.

[M]

Perfect.

[Christine]

And the footage also Showed them leaving the resort with the suitcase, loading it into the trunk of the taxi. Then they were captured climbing over a wall to get out of the resort.

[M]

Spider man over here. Okay.

[Christine]

I mean, literally, I had to look it up because when I watched one of the episodes on this, the footage looked so. So clear and, like, obvious and stupid that I was like, this must be a reenactment. And it's like, no.

[M]

Like, did they really not for a second think that one camera was on the property?

[Christine]

I think not. Like, they're just wandering around, like, let me put this suitcase in here and walk away. It's like to be a fly on the teenagers. Like, don't you know that everyone's watching on cameras all the time? I don't know.

[M]

To be a fly on the wall, though, when they found out that cameras exist, they had to go, oh.

[Christine]

Well, don't worry. Because they're.

[M]

They.

[Christine]

They literally pivot when they find out. They find out, and they're like, don't worry. We know. We. We've got. We've actually got.

[M]

That's what we wanted.

[Christine]

That's what we.

[M]

That was supposed.

[Christine]

That's part of the plan.

[M]

Yeah.

[Christine]

So anyway, they. They. They are caught fleeing over this wall, and then they are caught grabbing a different taxi and heading in the direction of the airport, which, again, she left her passport in the room. So nice job. Utterly caught in this lie and learning that cameras exist. Exist. Tommy and Heather were like, like you said, and they knew now that they had to admit to killing Sheila. There was no other way. They were like, yeah, okay. So Tommy says, actually, here's what really happened. I flew to Bali to surprise Sheila because he and Heather were pregnant.

[M]

Oh, is that true?

[Christine]

Wanted to announce this breaking news. They knew Sheila didn't like Tommy, and they thought, like, okay, well, maybe if we're in Bali together, like, it'll a nicer place to break the news. And so when she started screaming in the lobby, we were like, no, let's go to the room. We have something to share with you. And apparently, when they told Sheila that they were pregnant, Sheila reacted so badly that she freaked out. They started fighting. He was afraid for Heather and their baby. Sheila began hurling insults at them. And Heather interrupted, did and. And said, like, you have to understand, I'm having his baby. And then she, like, exploded, and she started hitting Tommy and then strangling him again. This is Tommy's telling of the event. And then strangling him. And Heather was screaming as Sheila to stop and get off Tommy. Tommy couldn't fight back because he was losing consciousness because he was being choked. And so in a moment of desperation and unclear of his own actions because he was deprived of oxygen, he just reached for whatever he could grab and he. He grabbed a glass bowl by the metal handle and hit Sheila over the head with. With it. Just in self defense. So goes his story.

[M]

I love the part where you said earlier that, like, they admitted to killing her, but it's like, did they. They just.

[Christine]

Yeah, but did they. They were like, we have to find a way to tell this story.

[M]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Delicately. Yeah, yeah. So he says, oh, well, but don't worry, it was all self defense. And he said Heather was in shock. Tommy panicked. Neither of them thought anyone would believe them, so they tried to escape without, like a real plan, obviously. And it was compelling, especially when they realized that Heather was indeed pregnant.

[M]

Okay.

[Christine]

So the story held a little more water because of that. And you know, it would have been compelling, but investigators in Indonesia were actually coordinating with the FBI back in the US and they had already uncovered messages between Tommy and. And Heather that didn't quite line up with this self defense explanation. Sheila had confiscated Heather's phone before the Bali trip, But Heather and Tommy had remained in contact online, like on Facebook, messenger or what have you. So they spoke of how wonderful their lives would be as soon as Heather turned 21, because that's when she would gain access to the trust fund that her dad left in her name and she would no longer have to depend on her mom for anything or use her credit card card. The two of them would finally be free. You know, that teenage, like, romance idea of like, we'd be free to live our lives together. Heather said, I will support us financially, you'll pursue your music. We'll live happily ever after. But 21 was four years away, and that was just too far. So for two teenagers, four years is very far away. So they began concocting a plan because, of course, if Sheila were dead, said Heather would automatically inherit everything, the entire state immediately, including her trust fund. So all of a sudden, the couple started having these entire conversations about how they might kill Sheila. They. And here's where I actually, I took pictures of the screen because I was like, again, so stunned by this.

[M]

I'm always con. I'm always curious.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[M]

How people get to that conversation. Like, how, like, what are you saying? To test the waters to see if the other person isn't totally freaked out by what you're suggesting.

[Christine]

And it's like when you look through, it's like the amount of like LOLs.

[M]

I'm like, it's like, haha, wouldn't it be crazy if she died?

[Christine]

Right.

[M]

How would it happen? Hahaha. Yeah, I.

[Christine]

Right. And so I have two pictures here. This one. And I won't like, we don't have to like put on screen or anything, but just so you see, like, it's like a picture of. Oh wow, phone.

[M]

Yeah.

[Christine]

And it's. It's Heather's phone and it says lol. Yeah. How about we drown her? And then he responds, she doesn't want to go to the beach. We need something else. And then Heather responds, what a. And then says, let's just do it here. And then another message from a different time said he. He wrote let's make it look like a suicide. And Heather said, okay, how. And he said, drown. And she said, sounds good. When? And he said, in Bali. And she said k. So he. That's so how they planned it.

[M]

Not only. So. Okay, I know I'm a little. Maybe it's late to the game, I don't know. But just. It's finally all connecting in my head.

[Christine]

It's all nonsense. It's crazy that they.

[M]

It's not like they flew in and then had.

[Christine]

Exactly.

[M]

Which is when they had accidental death. It's that she. They flew in with the intent to kill.

[Christine]

Huh. Which like changes everything because it's like, well, now you don't even have whether you're pregnant or not.

[M]

Like, I can't imagine like looking at my kid's phone and seeing like they're plotting to kill me. Are you fucking kidding me? Like, how do you horrify. What do you do after that? Like, you can't ground her.

[Christine]

She'll just. I don't think she ever saw it.

[M]

I know. I'm saying it like I can't imagine.

[Christine]

It in the context of being like a parent and seeing.

[M]

I mean, it's horrific.

[Christine]

Horrific. Well, and so here's the other text. They were basically like, there's a photo of his phone. And she said, like, we're gonna need something like a weapon, like something to hit her with because they decided to hit her over the head. And then he said, yeah, I got something, I'll bring it. And here's the picture. It's hard to see, but it's basically a blurry picture of like a metal and glass bowl that he says is in his.

[M]

So he literally brought the weapon.

[Christine]

He brought the weapon to Bali with him.

[M]

So he knew exactly what he was going to do.

[Christine]

Yes, exactly. And Again, how do you.

[M]

Again, teenagers. How do you not know? You don't know that cameras exist and you don't know that people can read your fucking text messages. Like, are you. What are you, three?

[Christine]

There was 2014. It's not like the concept of social media was brand new or anything. You know, what is going on here? So Sheila gave Heather her phone back in Bali, and that's when they started actually, like, texting back and forth, which is what these pictures are. Tommy even sent a photo of that murder weapon, which I just showed you. And she responded that, that should work. Now this is where I'm excited to show you this picture. Tommy was later caught on surveillance footage leaving his room with something large hidden under his tank top top. I mean, it's the bowl, basically, and a tank top.

[M]

You didn't even try, like, a puffer.

[Christine]

Jack literally didn't put it in a bag or something. Like, what? I have a photo. It's just ridiculous. I hope you can see it. So I'm going to play the live. Well, okay, we're going to try. Hold on.

[M]

Oh, my God. He's literally, like, literally so obvious about it. And I.

[Christine]

By the way, it's embarrassing, like, for anyone. What are you doing?

[M]

If you're not seeing that? I don't think we're going to. I don't know if we're showing. Yeah, I don't play it, but the camera is like. It's almost as if a camera was put on a tripod in front of his fudgeing face. Like, right. Right at his hotel.

[Christine]

By the way, he's looking around like, as if he's been like, see something? And I'm like, you're not looking at the fudgeing camera. And he has this bowl and it looks like he's pretending to be pregnant. You know when people do the joke of like, oh, I've seen my stomach. He, like, has a big ass bowl over his stomach. And I also just realized I was incorrect about saying he traveled there with the bowl because now I'm realizing they got their phones back in. Or she got her phone back in Bali. So he actually took that bowl from his resort room to the other room. That's why he had it, like, under his shirt. He's like, oh, I have something that'll work. And she brings it downstairs to Heather under his tank top. I mean, idiotic, really. So he was caught on this surveillance footage with, like this bowl. And of course then the hotel's like, well, yeah, there was a bull and now it's not here. And those are the pieces of it. So, yeah, that's the murder weapon. I mean, really Nike not thought through at all. On August 11, Tommy had also texted his cousin Robert Ryan bibs about how to kill Sheila. Like, why do these people involve other people? I will never understand.

[M]

Understand.

[Christine]

Robert agreed to help plan the murder if he got $50,000 from Heather's inheritance. And so then he was charged as part of the conspiracy to kill Sheila. And he said he was sentenced to serve up to nine years in prison. But think about this. Think about the mer. This is. Talk about how dumb teenagers are, and this is really scary. Heather and Tommy had killed some a US Navy national, but in Indonesia. So they are going to court. They're being tried and charged in Indonesia of all places. Like, this isn't like, oh, they go home and then like, they get to call their like, rich lawyer. You know, like, it's just really scary. And so they are taken into custody, they are charged for the murder, and they had to appear before a tribunal of three judges, not a jury of peers like they would in the. The US court proceedings began in January 2015 when Heather was seven months pregnant. It went on for months. In March, she gave birth to a daughter named Stella. And the trial then continued. Heather and Tommy tearfully repeated their story of self defense. But, like, it was just, I mean, come on. Obvious. There's like no way to deny it, that it was premeditated. The texts are all there. I'll hit her with this bowl.

[M]

Like, right.

[Christine]

What are you. I know.

[M]

Just the thing.

[Christine]

Here's a. I have just the thing.

[M]

Video footage of me hiding it, and.

[Christine]

Here it is under my tank top. So seriously, so Tommy was okay. And I also want to add like, that this. I don't think it got mentioned in my notes, but it was like, pretty jarring. I had to rewind and make sure I heard it correctly that in Indonesia, the. The. The result of this trial could be death by firing squad that was on the table for. For what their punishment would be, not only death penalty, but like, specifically firing squad. So. So it's like, well, nice work, idiots. I mean, thankfully that didn't happen. But just to give you an idea of like, what suddenly they were faced with, you know. Yeah.

[M]

Holy.

[Christine]

So Tommy was ultimately convicted of premeditated murder and sentenced to 18 years in prison, which he would serve in Indonesia. Heather was convicted of aiding and abetting murder, and she was sentenced to 10 years in prison. And the judges declared that she received a lighter sentence because they didn't want her daughter to grow up without a mother. So she did get an easier sentence. Because of that, her Indonesian law, Heather was allowed to keep Stella in prison with her until Stella turned two.

[M]

Oh, wow.

[Christine]

Then Stella went to live with a Balinese man and his Australian wife, who had assisted Heather as an interpreter during her trial. So Heather would ultimately renounce her claim to all of her inheritance. And Stella became the sole beneficiary of the family's estate. Talk about a plot twist. I know Heather served only seven years of her sentence in Indonesia, but she did not go free because when she completed sentence, she was deported to the US in 2021, where she then faced charges in the United States.

[M]

Holy wow.

[Christine]

So, like, really, really bad. The US Tried Heather with different charges than the Indonesian court to avoid the laws of, like, being of, like double jeopardy of being charged twice for the same. Tried twice for the same charge. So the prison chief warden in Indonesia said that Heather had changed during her time in prison. She was involved in organizing official activities for people she was in prison, imprisoned with. She grew to love them and became close with them and the culture of Indonesia. And she was apparently shocked and frightened when she was released early for good behavior. Now, Stella was six years old, which is crazy. Heather wanted six year old Stella to remain in Bali with her foster parents because she just knew, like, oh, the media attention and the upheaval back home will be a nightmare. But it was against Indonesian law for a minor to remain in the country when their mother. Mother is deported. So Heather and Stella both arrive. Imagine this poor six year old too, being like four years with this foster.

[M]

Family and then like, that's all she knows.

[Christine]

You're forced to go to Chicago all of a sudden. I mean, geez. Yeah. So they arrived in Chicago together, and according to court records, a judge granted emergency custody of Stella to one of Heather's attorneys, a woman named Kia Walker, who's Tommy's mother. And Stella is therefore grand grandmother, was upset that Stella was staying with an attorney. And she said, Stella has family here. Like, I'm her grandmother. I want my granddaughter. I want this craziness to stop. So now there's this custody battle between Kia Stella's foster mother, Oshar Suatarma, and Diana Roke Ellis, a close friend of Sheila's in life. Like, they're all just trying to, to get custody of this baby. Six year old baby. Maybe there were concerns over custody in such a high profile case too, because, like, they didn't want her being exploited for, for books, for media like they didn't want people or her inheritance. Now, like, it's all just front page news and she's only six years old, I guess.

[M]

I mean, I don't want, I'm not at all saying that like, oh, this kid is so lucky. But at least there are people who are trying to like, take her to protect her. Like, at least she's got some safe people to go to.

[Christine]

Yeah, well, according to some people, not so much. But this is just accusations that were thrown around. But people made accusations that Diana, Heather, and even the foster mother, Oshar planned to involve Stella in a documentary. But I think that was just like, okay, I think they were just starting rumors. But yeah, basically it's like all these people, whether they were friends of Sheila's or like blood related grandmother or what have you, like, yeah, people wanted to, to take her in. I am sad they didn't let her stay with her family in Bali. I don't know what the situation is, so I don't feel like I can speak on that. But it's just a lot for a little girl, obviously. So the judge making custody decisions actually said, quote, the fact that Stella is doing as well as she is is a credit to her, dare I say not to the adults. And I was like, thank you. Because all these people fighting and hurling accusations, I mean, it's not good for the kid. Like when it's like, oh, I want her, I want her. It's like it turns into like a pissing match between everyone and then like the kid is just like on the sidelines. It's just all scary and sad. But yeah, but they're, they, they're trying to do the best for her also. But it's like, what a mess anyway.

[M]

Big old gray space.

[Christine]

It's like, yeah, there's like no way to win in this scenario. I would say so. Diana was denied custody because she didn't have like an actual relationship relationship with Stella. This is just the friend of, of Sheila's. Heather had hoped to live with Diana and Stella if she were released awaiting trial. So she was hoping that Diana would get her daughter so that they could all three connect afterward. But finally, Stella was placed with Heather's maternal cousin. Okay, I don't know how that happened, but I'm sure there was a lot of back and forth about it. In 2023, Heather pleaded guilty. Imagine this happened in 2014 and like, so wild, it's just still going. In 2023, Heather pleaded Guilty to one count of conspiracy to kill a US national In January 2024, Heather was sentenced to 26 years in prison for conspiracy to kill a US national. And the two years she spent in custody since arriving back in the US Were credited to her sentence. Heather's family is. Has immensely struggled since Sheila's death. At Heather's US Sentencing, Sheila's brother Bill requested the maximum allowed sentence against Heather. Not the firing squad in Bali, but like, in. In the US What? Which would be life behind bars. And he told NBC News, if it were up to me, Heather would spend the rest of her life behind bars. Prosecutors said that Heather covered Sheila's mouth to muffle the screams while Tommy beat her mother to death with that weapon. After Debbie, her sister, sobbed during a victim impact statement, Heather said to her aunt, it breaks my heart hearing you cry. There's no excuse for me trying to harm her. I miss and love my mother. And it's just all so heartbreaking because it's like, you have to imagine me, like, as a teenage girl, she. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

[M]

It's such a. It's such a messy spot because part of. Part of me wants to have total compassion, and the other part.

[Christine]

Hello. Like, what the have you done? No, you're right. You're right, you're right. She said, I just didn't lose. This is Debbie again. I just didn't lose my sister and best friend. I really lost my niece, too. It's another heartbreak that I have to say, live with for the rest of my life. So as of today, Heather remains in prison in the U.S. tommy Schaefer, meanwhile, is still serving his first prison sentence in Indonesia. And when he's released, he has to face charges in the US as well.

[M]

He's never getting out.

[Christine]

Can you imagine? Like, he was the one who actually.

[M]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Brought the murder weapon, killed her. You know, it's just.

[M]

Wow.

[Christine]

It's ugly.

[M]

Wow.

[Christine]

Happy Halloween.

[M]

Scary.

[Christine]

It is scary. I'll give you that. I'll give you that.

[M]

Oh, my gosh.

[Christine]

Well, but you know me, in like, three weeks, I'll be like, I have the craziest Halloween story for you today.

[M]

And I look forward to it.

[Christine]

Well, well, okay. It's Thanksgiving, but all right.

[M]

I look forward to it. Yeah. I mean, technically, it's not Halloween yet. When this comes out and we can make the weekend after Halloween or Halloween.

[Christine]

Episode, we do have something to say, which is that we do have a little surprise coming out on Halloween. We do have a little surprise coming out on Halloween. Not the normal episode, but perhaps Even more fun. So just get ready for that.

[M]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so anyway, you have a second chance. I'll keep. I'll keep the cobwebs up next week in case you want to do something. Halloween.

[Christine]

You know what? This will be my chance. I'm going to forget. This will be my chance.

[M]

This will be your second chance.

[Christine]

Wait, doesn't this come out in like two weeks, or am I crazy?

[M]

Oh, does this come out on already? The weekend after October.

[Christine]

Oh, my God. M. This comes out on November 2nd. After all this time, you've really made me look a fool in your condom costume and everything.

[M]

You don't even have a chance.

[Christine]

This is way funnier that we're doing it like two days after Halloween.

[M]

I'm sorry, everyone.

[Christine]

Well, don't be sorry. We clearly. Well, maybe I could also be. Be wrong. I don't know anymore.

[M]

I don't know. We'll find out together.

[Christine]

It's always Halloween in our minds.

[M]

Well, I hope you had a good time as Pete the Cat or something. And.

[Christine]

Thank you.

[M]

I had a great time as a couple.

[Christine]

I. I could tell you remember this. Can you hear it? Is it too loud? That's what you're doing. Shimmy, shimmy, shimmy, shimmy, shimmy, shimmy, shimmy. And just so. So since you're like, can you hear it?

[M]

Well, then, Happy Halloween, everybody. And I guess next time we celebrate anything, we'll be singing our cranberry song.

[Christine]

So honestly, let's not. For I won't forget that.

[M]

I don't know how to decorate. But you know, we'll. We'll sing. That's what we'll do.

[Christine]

First of all, you know how to decorate. You just haven't come up with the right plan yet. So don't worry.

[M]

You're right. Something in me knows, but the something deep inside the awake me does not know yet.

[Christine]

You'll have the awakening, don't worry.

[M]

Ah, well, everybody, if you want to listen to more of us, you can go over to Patreon, listen to our intermission in between both of our stories today. You can tune in to here and be Sandy. And you can go to that one last show that is apparently over.

[Christine]

It's already been over for two weeks. And also. And I wore a condom costume and everyone was like, what's going on? No, I'll. I'll also listen to our. We don't talk about this enough. We're going to get better about it, I think over time is what I tell myself. But listen to the other parapods. Shows. We have some really, really lovely, wonderful shows and we're obviously you've noticed we've been doing some crossovers with other hosts for, for Paroen, Invasion of the Host Snatchers. It's been so much fun to like and it's also been so cool to get to know people that like. I know but I haven't like host like we haven't like hosted one on one as a couple co host with all these people. So it's, it's kind of, it's been really cool and I just, I adore everybody on our network so much. So we got all sorts of fun stuff. Go check it out. Parapods. I don't even know where what the website is, but I assume it's. It exists.

[M]

Parapods.com. no, not that one.

[Christine]

It's not that. Oh, huge domains.com.

[M]

Well go look at. And that's why you drink.com and learn more.

[Christine]

Parapods network.com is what I meant to say.

[M]

Of course. Me too.

[Christine]

Parapods Network. I'm pretty sure I helped come up with that. I think I picked that URL, so that's on me. Oh, I'm sorry. Like, I think Eva sent me a list and I was like that one. And then I didn't remember. So I apologize. But yes, so we do have a pair pods website with all our shows and a place if you want to contact us and get to know us and see what we're about and yeah, anyway, we're just so thankful for all of you.

[M]

All right, well see y' all next week. And that's why we drink. This episode is brought to you by LifeLock. It's Cybersecurity Awareness Month and LifeLock has tips to protect your identity. Use strong passwords, set up multi factor authentication, report phishing and update the software on your devices. And for comprehensive identity identity protection, let Lifelock alert you to suspicious uses of your personal information. Lifelock also fixes identity theft, guaranteed or your money back. Stay smart, safe and protected with a 30 day free [e-mail] podcast terms apply.