E461 Houdini Hat Men and Intertwined Ghost Toes

Summary

And That's Why We Drink — Episode 461: "Houdini Hat Men and Intertwined Ghost Toes"

Release Date: December 7, 2025
Hosts: Christine Schiefer & Em Schulz
Podcast Theme: True Crime & Paranormal with banter, humor, and personal updates

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Christine and Em serve up a hearty feast of ghostly hotel hauntings, true crime, and hilarious tangents—this time with a strong Arizona theme. Em unpacks the haunted Copper Queen Hotel, complete with celebrity spooks, mischievous child ghosts, and a paranormal feather-in-the-cap for Harry Houdini himself. Christine goes true crime, exploring the baffling 2021 disappearance of Daniel Robinson, a young geologist who seemingly vanished into the Arizona desert without a trace. Along the way: Thanksgiving leftovers, ice skating flops, balance boards, haunted toes (!), and what makes a proper cowboy shirt.

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Table of Contents

1. Catching Up: Holidays, Illnesses, and Ice Skating (02:38–16:40)
2. Why We Drink: Balance Boards, Collectibles & Three-Drink Theory (16:41–22:55)
3. Story 1: The Haunted Copper Queen Hotel, Bisbee, AZ (26:18–79:39)
   • Hotel Background (27:00–36:43)
   • The Ghosts (37:10–63:48)
   • Celebrity Sightings & Ghost Log (31:01, 32:07, 44:23)
   • Ghost Adventures Shenanigans (68:07–79:39)
4. Story 2: The Disappearance of Daniel Robinson, Buckeye, AZ (81:02–120:32)
   • Timeline & Family Background (81:49–88:05)
   • The Disappearance (88:07–98:53)
   • Theories & Search Details (96:02–114:06)
   • Unresolved Mysteries and Theories (114:13–120:32)
5. Memorable Quotes & Moments
6. Timestamps for Key Segments

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1. Catching Up: Holidays, Illnesses, and Ice Skating (02:38–16:40)

• Post-Thanksgiving check-in: Both hosts recount their holidays—sinus infections, travel misadventures, in-law breakfasts, and the ultimate pleasure of late-night fridge raids à la “gremlins.”
  • “I just lounge in my day bed... I do become like a gremlin... traipse through the dark by myself with my little flashlight.” —Christine (04:26)
• Food chat: Stuffing, mushroom casseroles, the great green bean casserole divide, and creative leftover sandwiches.
• Christine describes feeling burnt out from travel (“I'm never leaving my house again” —09:58) and missing her pets.
• Christine’s daughter has started ice skating, leading to self-deprecating stories of parental clumsiness and attempts to use “beautiful arches” as a reason to avoid the ice.
• Both hosts bemoan their declining balance as adults and toy with the idea of balance boards.
  • “I'm actually worried about my health, actually.” —Christine (15:10)
• “We are supposed to mention our awesome holiday merchandise... does not feature a balance board...” —Christine (16:16)

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2. Why We Drink: Balance Boards, Collectibles & Three-Drink Theory (16:41–22:55)

• Christine drinks mini Dr. Pepper; Em drinks to being home (and not having enough drinks to drink... irony!).
  • “Because you don't have enough to drink. And that's why we drink. It feels like a crime.” —Christine (18:53)
• Em’s new purchases: a balance board (not yet used) and a limited-edition Marty McFly skateboard replica:
  • “It’s a fully functioning skateboard... nearly as exact as possible… wheels re-embossed!” —Em (20:58)
• Christine lights candles and jokes about spell-casting (“Are you manifesting anything while you light it? Since we might as well make it a spell.” —Em 22:12)
• The “three-drink” theory: hosts discuss always having a hydration, a caffeine, and a “fun little treat” beverage at once—labelled “definitely an ADHD thing.”

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3. Story 1: The Haunted Copper Queen Hotel, Bisbee, AZ (26:18–79:39)

Hotel Background (27:00–36:43)

• Built in 1902 by a mining company (Phelps Dodge Mining Co.) for mine execs and guests; older than the state of Arizona.
• "The walls are two feet thick for insulation, which feels... creepy." —Christine (30:46)
• Longest continuously operating hotel in AZ; on the National Register of Historic Places.
• Victorian/wild west vibes: all original decor, metal keys, a restaurant offering recreated 1902 menu items, including game meat, PB&J (invented in 1902), Oysters Rockefeller, and early desserts like devil’s food cake and baked Alaska.

The Ghosts (37:10–63:48)

• Ghost Log: Guests write their experiences at the front desk. Rumored entries by Houdini & Teddy Roosevelt, but likely just in their rooms.
• Main Haunts:
  • The Old Man ("Howard" / The Hat Man): Shadowy, white-bearded, top hat & cape wearing dude who smells of cigar smoke; died in Room 401, allegedly after being caught cheating; negative presence, appears in mirrors and halls.
    • “It sounds like he is confused.” —Christine (46:08)
    • “Reflections is bad because then it feels like he's trying to hide. I hate, like, he forgot about his reflection, you know?” —Christine (49:31)
  • Julia Lowell (Room 315): Sex worker who fell in love with a client, was rejected, and hanged herself at the hotel. Now she:
    • Seductively dances at the foot of men's beds, pulls covers down, tickles feet, and sometimes whispers in your ear. Will also directly ask, “Have you seen anything?” when startled by guests.
      • “Tickles your feet... that's not okay in any universe, any generation, any decade. It's not cool.” —Christine (55:01)
      • “I'll take care of the toes upstairs with Julia.” —Em (70:36)
  • Billy (Room 412): Mischievous ghost child of a staff member, drowned in a river, haunts with giggling, moving objects, and taking/returning guests’ possessions (especially shoes and wallets), and is afraid of running water.
    • "There are a lot of stories to uncover. Imagine if I got Jenna on the horn!" —Em (38:50)
    • “If you turn the shower or bath faucet on, you'll hear him cry... that's cruel.” —Em (64:42)
• Other hauntings: furniture moves by itself, objects vanish and reappear midair, ghost children intrude in family photos, phone calls from no one, cold spots, and more.

Celebrity Sightings & Ghost Log (31:01, 32:07, 44:23)

• Past guests: Marlon Brando, John Wayne (Room 211), Julia Roberts, Kiefer Sutherland, Michelle Pfeiffer, Nancy Reagan, Teddy Roosevelt (Room 406), Harry Houdini (Room 312).
• Ghost log includes haunted room stories—possibly not written by these celebs, but in "their" rooms.

Ghost Adventures Shenanigans (68:07–79:39)

• Both Ghost Hunters and Ghost Adventures have filmed here; only minor activity for the former (blankets and luggage move).
• Ghost Adventures: Zach Baggins shows up in full cowboy regalia (“Rebel Spirit” shirt, thumb rings), cracks iffy "sex worker" jokes, and attempts furniture-moving speed trials.
• Notable moments:
  • EVP: "Put the rope down" (a nod to Julia’s story), “Billy’s hurt” when shower is turned on, and clear “footsteps from nowhere.”
  • Shower curtain visibly moves in response to investigators' request in Billy's room (74:44).
  • “If you wanted to hear Zach Biggins grunting in a cowboy outfit, Christine... it’s somebody's dream come true.” —Em (73:25)
• “Look, you hold Zach's hand downstairs. I'll take care of the toes upstairs with Julia.” —Em (70:32)
• After the episode and a restoration: Copper Queen Hotel on sale for $12.5 million as of 2024.

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4. Story 2: The Disappearance of Daniel Robinson, Buckeye, AZ (81:02–120:32)

Timeline & Family Background (81:49–88:05)

• Daniel Robinson: young Black geologist, born without part of his right forearm/hand, close family, loved the outdoors, moved from South Carolina for work.
• June 2021: Daniel working remote well sites in AZ desert, also doing Instacart. Recently became infatuated with a customer, whom he texted repeatedly and showed up uninvited; she requested no further contact.
• 18 hours before vanishing, Daniel texts: “the world can get better” and “I would either see her again or never see her again.” (86:08)

The Disappearance (88:07–98:53)

• June 23, 2021: Daniel leaves remote job site after 15 minutes, acting off; makes strange comments to a coworker, then drives deeper into the desert instead of home.
• Massive manhunt initiated by father David and authorities; searches involve ground units, helicopters, and drones, covering 70+ sq miles.
• Nearly a month later: Daniel’s Jeep is found crashed in a remote ravine, airbags deployed, clothing and possessions (including phone, wallet, and water) left behind; no blood or body found.
• “Case of bottled water still in the Jeep,” despite Daniel’s knowledge of desert risks. —Christine (96:37)

Theories & Search Details (96:02–114:06)

• Possibility: Crash + heatstroke/disorientation + removal of clothes (a symptom of heat exhaustion).
• “They found a pair of inside out jeans, t-shirt, two inside out socks, boots... his phone, keys, backpack, and a case of water.” —Christine (96:39)
• Private accident experts note 40 ignition cycles post-crash (possibly desperate attempts to start vehicle). Dispute over an 11-mile odometer discrepancy that the family sees as suspicious—but which expert says could be a normal vehicle glitch.
• Family suspects possible foul play/staging, referencing oddities, lack of blood, and the computer being accessed after disappearance (though police deny this).

Unresolved Mysteries and Theories (114:13–120:32)

• No definitive proof of mental health crisis, suicide, or foul play; two other sets of human remains found during searches were NOT Daniel’s.
• Daniel’s father remains dedicated, mounting numerous volunteer searches.
• National profile raised with support from Gabby Petito’s father.
• Race and context: Em raises the possibility of racial violence in the 2021–2022 climate.
• Both hosts tentatively side with mental health/crisis theories, though animal attack or hidden remains can’t be ruled out (“All these scenarios don’t totally add up. It’s just hard to say.” —Christine 118:42).

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5. Memorable Quotes & Moments

• "Have you seen anything?" —Ghost Julia, relaying the most ominous of ghostly pickup lines. (56:52)
• "Tickles your feet... that's not okay in any universe, any generation, any decade. It's not cool." —Christine (55:01)
• “Reflections is bad because then it feels like he's trying to hide. I hate, like, he forgot about his reflection, you know?” —Christine (49:31)
• "You're going to love that. Why'd you buy a skateboard that neither of us can use?" —Christine (21:38)
• "Look, you hold Zach's hand downstairs. I'll take care of the toes upstairs with Julia." —Em (70:32)
• "The three drink theory: hydration, caffeine, fun little treat. It’s an ADHD thing." —Em (18:24)
• On Daniel’s case: "You think he lived thousands of miles away. He's a young man. He's going through it... who knows?" —Christine (89:40)
• "Could the desert monsters have gotten him?" —Em jokingly expanding on wild animal theories (122:11)

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6. Timestamps for Key Segments

• 02:38–16:40 — Banter & catching up post-holidays
• 16:41–22:55 — Why we drink, collectibles, three-drink theory
• 26:18 — Em’s story: Copper Queen Hotel begins
• 31:01 — Celebs past guests; haunted rooms begin
• 37:10 — Main ghosts & ghost log
• 56:02 — “Have you seen anything?” Julia’s ghost
• 68:07 — Ghost Adventures segment
• 74:44 — Shower curtain ghost clip recap
• 81:02 — Christine’s story: disappearance of Daniel Robinson begins
• 96:02 — Jeep crash details; heatstroke theory
• 103:05 — Private investigation and alternate theories
• 110:37 — Father's advocacy & searches; unsolved status
• 120:32 — Wrap up, animal attack speculation, outro banter

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In Short

This episode perfectly captures "And That's Why We Drink" at its best: warm, witty hosts; a richly detailed paranormal deep-dive (with a side of haunted toes); and a perplexing, poignant true crime—both from the Arizona desert. Banter fans will love the off-topic drifts (not least Em’s foray into Back to the Future collectors’ culture and balance board purchases), while paranormal lovers and true crime aficionados get satisfying, thorough stories, ghost logs, and more than a few ghostly giggles.

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If you have information on Daniel Robinson’s disappearance, contact Buckeye Police Department: 623-349-6411.

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Why do they drink?
Because haunted hotels and missing persons are wild. And—sometimes—so are your toes.

Transcript

[Em]

This podcast is sponsored by Squarespace. We have been using Squarespace since we started the podcast before, like since we.

[Christine]

Before we launched it, which is.

[Em]

Yeah, yeah. So we've been using it longer than the podcast has been around because we have been. We were building out our website and it was so easy. For two people who've never built a website. It was just kind of a plug and chug situation. They made it so user friendly.

[Christine]

It's so true. And we've stuck around with them because since then they've only gotten better and more, you know, integrations, more features. For example, let me give you like a little situation here. If you're going to fundraise, which we're. We're not right now, but you know, if we want to go to the Mothman festival and we need to fundraise for that, for example, you can fundraise directly on your website and grow your impact. With built in donation tools you can create a professional on brand website that makes it easy to accept one time or recurring contributions from your lovely fans. No, I'm kidding. With built in email campaigns and marketing tools that's also like a huge selling point. You can connect with your community and inspire more people to support your cause, which is a really cool angle.

[Em]

Yeah. Any reason you need a website, Squarespace is there for you. Head to squarespace.com drink for a free trial and when you're ready to launch, use offer code drink to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Knock knock. It's Santa. Just kidding. But it's someone who's going to be buying a lot of presents for Christmas and I don't have to worry about where I'm shopping because we are working with Uncommon Goods, which I'm very excited about this. I found out that they were one of our sponsors. I was like, this is going to be the easiest endorsement I've ever done my life. We've been using Uncommon Goods for so long. It is the dream Christmas present website. Just buying yourself a fun little treat.

[Christine]

It's like something for everyone. And I don't just say that like it's really true. I bought my sister one year a from Uncommon Goods a green onion regrower kit. She loves green onions. I don't know. I was like, how the heck do they have the perfect gift for my sister who loves green onions? I don't know, but it just happened.

[Em]

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[Christine]

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[Em]

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[Christine]

Foreign.

Hello everyone. Welcome to and that's why we drink our favorite. Our favorite podcast and your favorite podcast too.

[Em]

Certainly our. Our favorite one to my favorite one. You got two to pick from, but.

[Christine]

My favorite one to be on. I love all my children equally.

[Em]

Yeah, okay. Yeah, right. Okay.

Well, happy post. Turkey Day. So sorry, everyone. We. We had ran into some difficulties last week. Could not do it.

[Christine]

That was my bad. You can still hear my sinus infection. It's not cute.

[Em]

No, it was. It was a little. It was both of us. I also was flying away to Seattle and things just got hairy. But it actually probably saved everyone because we could not get the turkey song the first time. I know they didn't want to hear it a second time.

[Christine]

Don't say we.

[Em]

First of all, me, I could not get it the first time.

[Christine]

Lump me into your failure. Your moral failures.

[Em]

Yeah, that was a bad one. I. I really felt confident. So confident. I didn't. Yeah.

[Christine]

And I was like, fair.

[Em]

How did I forget syllable versus word too?

[Christine]

Honestly, every other year I've forgotten at least a word or two. So it always shocks me when, I mean, it shocked me. Because you've never forgotten a word.

[Em]

Yeah, but I started on the first syllable. All of a sudden I was wrong.

[Christine]

How we did Immediately incorrect. Yeah.

[Em]

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, how was your Turkey Day, Christine? I have not seen you. It was since we did that song.

[Christine]

Yeah, since we did that faded terrible song.

It was okay. It was good. It was good. We just were so, like, sick and it was just cold and.

[Em]

Is everyone sick?

[Christine]

What? No, it's just Leona and I were sick and nobody else.

[Em]

Oh.

[Christine]

Lucky plays I know. Isn't it fun for him? But it's nice because when I'm visiting my in laws, I'm like, here, take your child. Take both your. Take your child and your grandchild off with you. And they, they. They let me just like sit there in a blanket and like.

[Em]

Like a Victorian painting just kind of slowly dying.

[Christine]

Yeah, I just lounge in my Day bed.

[Em]

Um, nice. Yeah.

[Christine]

So it's kind of nice, I felt. And then I would just like, you know, go down. Everyone goes to bed early in that family. So I just go downstairs and eat food out of the fridge all night.

[Em]

I can't.

[Christine]

It's very nice.

[Em]

Yeah, I, I, I love finally getting a second to breathe when I'm in another person's house. So like, in that way, I love that they go to bed early.

[Christine]

But then I do become like a gremlin. Like I just like traipse through the dark by myself with my little flashlight. Yeah.

[Em]

And I'm, and, but my fear then is that, well, that means they also wake up early. So, like, I'm really screwed because.

[Christine]

Oh, they do wake up early. That is true. But I don't. And I go to bed before they wake up. So it really is a nice little, you know, they're like, where did all the food go? And I'm like, I have no idea.

[Em]

There's like literal teeth marks on the cheese.

[Christine]

I mean, really, like, you can't buy an ice cream cake for Thanksgiving and then expect it to still be there tomorrow.

[Em]

When it comes to ice cream cake, you have never said true words. But yeah, I, Even with Allison's parents, her dad wakes up at 4am for fun. And that's usually when I go to bed.

[Christine]

Fun. That's sick.

[Em]

And they, I'm very lucky that I'm in a family where they, after they saw Wicked, they just saw the new one. They immediately wanted to arrange a debrief phone call with me.

[Christine]

Oh, wow. They really appreciate your opinion, I guess.

[Em]

Well, I forced them into the first one, so I think they wanted to see this out. I wanted, I think they just wanted.

[Christine]

To see this out. They were like, if you're gonna commit, we're gonna commit.

[Em]

But they wanted to have the, the phone call ends up being at 8:00am in on the West coast, which was 11:00 clock for them, which meant they'd already been up for seven hours. Din mean, and I woke up early.

[Christine]

Just to have this debris early, in my opinion.

[Em]

So we're just living completely different lives. So I, I understand the plight of the in laws that wake up early.

[Christine]

Yeah, it's actually great because then I'm like, oh, there's just coffee and food for me at any point, you know.

[Em]

Well, did you have a nice dinner? I don't even know what you're like, you like to get. What's your Thanksgiving plate?

[Christine]

Oh, man. Stuffing.

[Em]

Interesting.

[Christine]

Bread and butter.

I did a little turkey this Year. Sometimes I don't.

Just kind of all the classics. Some cranberry on there. Straight mashed potatoes.

[Em]

Okay. You don't have any, like, standouts. Like, when we were like, they better make this plate.

[Christine]

Oh, they make a really good stuffing. And you're not into this, but, like, a mushroom, they make, like, this, like, mushrooms. Oh, my God, it's so good. I just.

[Em]

One. Speaking of one syllable, as soon as you said mush, I went, no immediate.

[Christine]

But I don't know. I just love. I just love all foods. Sure.

[Em]

Picky.

[Christine]

I'm really not picky. I just love when there's, like, a ton of food and they're like, actually, I love leftovers. That's always my thing. So, like, I love to take the turkey and make a mayonnaise and turkey and tomato sandwich afterwards.

[Em]

I get it. That one, we can.

[Christine]

That one, I can. We can agree on that. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What about you, though? Because I feel like we've discussed this, but now I don't remember.

[Em]

We haven't discussed it. We're still learning about each other.

[Christine]

Everyone's like, we've heard this conversation every year for the past.

[Em]

They're, like, reciting our orders like, you.

[Christine]

Know exactly what you like.

[Em]

I can't stand a green bean casserole. Get that away from me. I don't understand why you would want that.

[Christine]

Horrid.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

I dated a guy who. That was his favorite Thanksgiving meal. Like, he was like, I could eat just that. And I was like, you're sick.

[Em]

Something's off for sure.

[Christine]

It sounds really red flag.

[Em]

My aunt makes an incredible mashed potato. I think most of it's butter, and it's like mashed potatoes.

[Christine]

Like, you do it.

[Em]

I think potato is, like, the second ingredient.

[Christine]

Correct ratio.

Six pounds of butter, two pounds potatoes.

[Em]

They. They get these rolls that I haven't had anywhere else, and so a lot of times I'll just in the middle of the night, like a gremlin. This is what I did. They went to bed, and then I pulled out the leftover mashed potatoes from the fridge, and I took the leftover rolls, and literally, like, it was like injera or something. I was using the rolls and just picking up mashed potatoes fresh out of the dish and just.

[Christine]

And they're, like, soft. Oh, my God. I mean, I'm telling you, that is the dream.

[Em]

Yeah. And I, you know, I love Mac and cheese, but I'm really picky about Mac and cheese, and so I'm hesitant to try other people's Mac and cheese. But I would say if it was getting nailed every single time, that would be my favorite things.

[Christine]

That's the top one, too, but it's risky.

[Em]

Some people like breadcrumbs. Some people put in different fancy cheese. I don't want all that, so.

[Christine]

Oh, man. You know, I want everything with all the fancy cheese, all the, like, moldy cheeses, and.

[Em]

You're sick.

[Christine]

Breadcrumbs. I know. I have such audacity to say, like, you're disgusting if you eat green beans, and I'm, like, put mold all over my Mac and cheese.

[Em]

No, I. But I. Honestly, as much as I like the Thanksgiving food, my. My aunt and uncle, they really. My aunt is an incredible cook, and so it was kind of actually every meal other than Thanksgiving that I was most excited for, because I never knew what was gonna happen, and it was always gonna be great.

[Christine]

It's kind of fun, but you just know it's good.

[Em]

Yeah, I.

[Christine]

That's a dream.

[Em]

They never fail. Every meal there is pretty incredible. So that's why I go back every year.

[Christine]

So, I mean, it is quite a trek. And you do commit, so that's. Yeah, that makes sense.

[Em]

I do, but I'm. Anyway, I had fun. I'm glad you had fun.

[Christine]

Yeah, I did. I'm glad to be home, though, because I've, like, not been home much this year, so I'm like, I know now, which is great, but Blaze is going to a jiu jitsu tournament in Las Vegas.

[Em]

You going?

[Christine]

No, I'm staying home. Because I'm. I don't. I mean, I would go if, like, it were a longer trip or something, but with Leona and stuff, I'm staying home. But.

I'm like, you go. Go to Vegas. Have a time of your life. I'm never leaving my house again.

[Em]

I mean, you've only been off tour for, like, a month. Isn't that crazy?

[Christine]

I know. And then I was in Egypt for half a month. I mean, it's all my fault. I'm not blaming anyone, but I am saying, just. I've decided. I've. I've done. I've.

[Em]

You're burnt too far. Yeah.

[Christine]

Too far.

[Em]

I got. I got you. I gotcha. I. I don't blame you if I were. I mean, I've been very nicely sitting over here, not on tour, and I've kind of loved it, so.

[Christine]

We missed my puppy a lot. Oh, and my kitties. I was like, man.

[Em]

Well, as much as I like.

[Christine]

I should be surprised.

[Em]

As much as I like Tor, I have loved not having that experience for a second, just to breathe. So I'm very excited that, you know, get to have that experience.

[Christine]

It is really nice. And, like, especially at winter time, like, why would I ever leave the house ever?

[Em]

Yeah. I mean, sanity. You also have, like, the aesthetic, though, of, like, oh, it's so snowy and cozy.

[Christine]

It is. I do have that. There's ice on the sidewalk. Do I look like I'm gonna go walk on it? No.

[Em]

No. But here, it looks like June, so, you know.

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah, that's. Pros and cons of that, I suppose.

[Em]

Well, I'm happy for you and your puppy would. I'm sure everyone would like an update on your puppy and kitties.

[Christine]

Well, we just heard him thumping down the stairs.

He's 10 years old. He still steals all our socks and collects them in a pile around the house. Usually on blazes.

[Em]

Pillow precious.

[Christine]

And, yeah, he's just living the dream, you know, Snacking all day, snacking all night.

[Em]

Do you drink for any particular reason this week?

[Christine]

Yeah, well, I drink my mini dpep.

I know I cracked into it before we started. I couldn't help myself. I drink because Leona has taken up ice skating.

[Em]

Oh. I don't think she got herself to a rink alone. Who encouraged this?

[Christine]

Who do you think? Me? No. Who else do you think has the parental rights to do such a thing? Yeah, it's blazing. He was like, oh, I finally have an own up for ice skating. I'm like, I will not be participating in that. And then, of course, because I was gone the first week, she wanted me to come. So I came to the second week, and they had, like, an open skate at the end, and I was like, sure, I'll come on the ice with you. I literally don't know what planet I was living on where I thought I could do this, but I got on the ice and was like, oh, my God. And I held onto the wall, and I was like, I don't even know how to stand up.

[Em]

You don't know how to ice skate?

[Christine]

No. Em. Like, why. How do I not know that? Like, I've gone ice skating before, but I stood there like a. Like a deer that just was birthed out of.

[Em]

Have you.

[Christine]

Let's not get further into that metaphor. But I was, like, standing on the wall, like. Like doing the, like, cartoon arms. I mean, it was ridiculous.

[Em]

Have you not done it in a while? Because I feel like we've hit that age where, like, our balance is starting to get fucked up.

[Christine]

I think it's my balance Must be so bad. I, like, couldn't even stand up. And then of course, we went to Connecticut and my in laws were like, let's go roller skating. And I was like, what's happening in this world?

[Em]

A lot of lack of stability under my feet, which I don't love.

[Christine]

Totally. Why am I putting wheels on my feet?

[Em]

You know, you can do what I did. Well, except my. I was telling the truth is that I went skiing with Allison's family. And by the way, when I was a kid, I was an incredible skier. I loved skiing. I thought that was so much fun. Hadn't done it in a while. And then I was like, ready to, like, not really show off, but I.

[Christine]

Was afraid, kind of be like, dust off the old. Yeah, back.

[Em]

Get back out there. And I was excited to at least be like, her family is, like, athletic and all this. And so I was. I was excited to finally show off that, like, I can do something other than sit on a couch. Second I put. Put the boots on. My feet started screaming. And it's because as I got older, I'm like, I'm totally flat footed now. And so there was no support and I felt like my bones were breaking under me. So I actually ended up just being like, sitting at the. What was it, the lodge or the hotel?

[Christine]

Oh, you know, I love the little chalet. Ski chalet.

[Em]

Oh, but I was so upset. But anyway, if you ever need to pull the old. Oh, I have flat feet. I can't put my feet in there anymore.

[Christine]

You know, it's just that I have really beautiful arches. So I feel like it would be kind of like remiss of me to not mention that whenever asked or prompted.

[Em]

Sure. I mean, at the ice rink in the. In the little locker room area, you are expected to show off the goods. And we know on wiki feet you are at least a four.

[Christine]

So I'm like a very low average at best. Yeah, that's because I never get pedicures. But anyway.

I tell you what, that was not for me. I went roller skating about a few days later, and that was also not for me. Meanwhile, everybody in Blaze's family is just like, we zipping around. And I'm like, I don't understand this.

[Em]

Well, it's Blazes family. They're all freakishly good at everything.

[Christine]

Since I was in fourth grade. And I'm like, really? Well, doesn't look like it.

[Em]

Skates are. When it's all four, like, as a square and blades are the line.

[Christine]

Yeah. And I used to rollerblade As a kid, like, outside and stuff. And now I'm like, what? How?

[Em]

I've never once successfully roller skated. I can only rollerblade. And that was. That was when my feet worked.

[Christine]

So it was back when your feet had beautiful arches like mine.

[Em]

Yeah, no, I. Rollerblading is fun. You can do it. It still hurt.

[Christine]

I don't know. I haven't done rollerblading since I was, like, 10. I'm sure that would also be a big fat miss for me, but we'll see. We'll see.

[Em]

I'm sorry for your balance. May she rest in peace.

[Christine]

Really bad. I was like, do I need to, like, do something about this? I'm actually worried about my health, actually.

[Em]

Yeah, I. If you want to go on this journey with me, I just got a balance board.

[Christine]

Like, I was just googling them because of this exact situation. Do you like it?

[Em]

I literally haven't opened it yet.

[Christine]

Oh, my God. I'm so curious because I was like, well, they make them for kids now because it's, like, a really important part of, like, developing your body. And I'm like, I never learned that. I don't think I ever balanced on anything my whole life.

[Em]

I think I just never. It was, you know, young privilege, where it's like, well, I was unaware that anyone has to practice this. I'm just good at it. Um, but now I've. I used to, like, stand up and put my. Like, pick up one leg and lean it on the other leg while I put a sock on, like, I wouldn't have to lean on anything.

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah, Just like, one.

[Em]

Stick my foot up and put the sock on. And I've noticed myself wiggling when that happens now. And I was like, what the hell? So, see? Yeah, it goes quickly. You blink, kids. You blink.

[Christine]

And then it happens as I take a drag of my long cigarette. One blink and it'll miss it.

[Em]

Well, if you would like to try balance boarding with me, I'm in on that. On that.

[Christine]

Speaking of cool merchandise, before I ask you why you drink, we're supposed to mention our awesome holiday merchandise, which does not feature a balance board, but you could maybe fashion one out of some of these items. I don't think so, though, because I'm looking at them and they're false and stuff. Yeah, you could make a hammock, I guess. Anyway, we have some really fun merch. We have a holiday sale. Entire store excluding new items. Sneaky, sneaky. That's 30 off now through December 12, 1212. And we got our Christmas sweater, which I love our Krampus ornament and the Krampus stockings on sale. And a pin. I just. It's fun stuff. So go to ATWD merch.com to check that out.

[Em]

Thank you for remembering. We both know it was going to.

[Christine]

Be you in full screen in front of me so that I wouldn't forget, and I almost did. But why do you drink, Em?

[Em]

I don't think I drink for anything really particular. I'm. I'm glad to be back in my house for a little bit. I got to see Hank yesterday, which was the first time in.

[Christine]

Yay.

[Em]

Over a week.

That was nice. I'm not loving today. I ordered two of my. My flts and.

[Christine]

Okay, which one? Which ones?

[Em]

I just did a little. A little iced black tea with some lavender in it. But, um, I ordered two and one arrived, so I know I like to have one to chug and one to sip, you know, because by the time.

[Christine]

I know that about you.

[Em]

Yeah. And now I have.

[Christine]

There was that TikTok that I think you reshared that I saw on my for you page. I'm pretty sure you reshared it because it really had very energy. But it was like when I have a one drink for.

Caffeine, one to calm down or. And then one for hydration, and I've reached, like, the perfect flow or whatever. The flow state.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

And I was like, that's it. The number of beverages. You have to have the, like, perfect ratio of, like, hydrating to dehydrating to caffeinating. Really a beautiful balance there.

[Em]

Thank you. Thank you for thinking of me and knowing I am involved in that somehow.

[Christine]

But you're welcome. Your face appeared on it and I went, oh, yep. That feels right.

[Em]

No, apparently that's an ADHD thing. It's one of those, like, little hidden symptoms, is that you constantly just have like three drinks all at once and.

[Christine]

They'Re all really well. It makes me pee all the time. But I guess. I guess beyond that, it is helpful.

[Em]

One's a. You're right. Hydration, caffeine, and then a fun little treat, basically. Like something yummy.

[Christine]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Em]

Anyway, I'm down. I only have one drink, so I'm gonna have to be sparingly gasp. I'm not excited about that. So I'll make that why I drink.

[Christine]

Because you don't have enough to drink.

[Em]

I don't have enough to drink on. And that's why we drink. It feels like a crime. All right, well, hey.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

Report on that, so. Oh, I have a Reason why I drink. And I. I got it a while ago. Time has passed, so I. I forgot that I got this. I recently purchased.

A Back to the Future. This is very difficult to purchase, but there was a limited edition sale going on, basically.

[Christine]

Oh.

[Em]

I purchased one of Marty McFly's skateboards from back to the Future.

[Christine]

Now this sounds suspiciously like what you called a balance board just a moment ago. Are these two different items?

[Em]

They' two different. This is a fully functioning skateboard from a skateboarding company. It's the same skateboarding company that made the Marty McFly one.

[Christine]

Is this why you're trying to get a balance board going? Like to balance?

[Em]

No, I will never. I'll never ride this. It's fully for collectible use.

[Christine]

Understood. Okay.

[Em]

I don't want to wreck the tires, but. Or the wheels. I'm so stupid. I'm not asking the tires. Isn't she beautiful?

[Christine]

Whoa. Whoa. Whoa.

[Em]

Isn't she beautiful?

[Christine]

Whoa. So wait, so this is. I'm so stupid. This is. No, you're not from. This is a.

[Em]

It's from Back to the Future.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Em]

And this is the skateboard that Marty McFly uses in it. But it's. After he used it in the movie. It became so popular amongst, like Back to the Future nerds. But it's incredibly expensive to find online. They're like $700 or some shit like that. And so the, the 40th anniversary just happened for Back to the Future. And so the company made like. What was it? Since it's 2025. They made like 2025 of the originals and sold them as part of the, like, anniversary.

[Christine]

Whoa. Are you going to hang it up?

[Em]

I am absolutely going to hang it up. Well, it's been lying on a bunch of pillows because I'm scared of anything touching it.

[Christine]

But it's.

[Em]

They. Apparently this is. They are calling it a 99% one to one replica. Like, it's like nearly as exact as possible.

[Christine]

The tires.

[Em]

Even the tires. Actually, the tires are like a big talking point on this one because they've done limited edition sales before where they didn't have the original wheels to work off of. And so they had to like paint this little pattern in here. But they actually found the original wheels and re embossed these wheels cooler. It's a whole thing. So this is. They said they. They don't think they could make it any more exact. Wow. So I'm very excited. That's why I drink.

[Christine]

That's awesome. That's a good reason. You got lots of boards going on over there.

[Em]

I do. I do. And not even using all of them. One's just to look at, which I'm sure if you're anything like Allison, she's like, why?

[Christine]

You're gonna love that.

[Em]

Why'd you buy a skateboard that neither of us can use? And now it's just.

[Christine]

That goes on the wall, not the floor.

[Em]

Yeah.

Anyway, it'll be an excellent addition to our storage unit, so I can't wait.

[Christine]

To hear all about it.

[Em]

Yeah, I'm very excited to just have it. That's why I drink.

[Christine]

I'm trying to. If you're wondering what I'm doing, I'm trying to light a candle off screen. And it looks like I'm, like, doing, like, a spell, but I'm really just trying to light a candle, so. No, but not lighting.

[Em]

That is how one would start sort of lighting.

[Christine]

Doing a spell. Yeah.

Anyway.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

Well, these days, what.

[Em]

What is. Are you manifesting anything while you light it? Since we might as well make it a spell.

[Christine]

You don't want to know.

[Em]

Oh, okay. I hope the balance board doesn't let me balance.

[Christine]

Oh, my God. I hope I'm tips off the balance board, because that would be funny. No, I'm just kind of mad it's not lighting, so that's mostly my issue. But that's all right. I have another little balsam candle right here, and it smells Christmassy.

[Em]

The balsam ones get me every time. Christy.

[Christine]

Really good stuff. Really good stuff. Really good stuff I bought as a gift for someone. And then I smelled it and went, never mind. I want it in my house.

[Em]

I know. That's what I do a lot of times with, like, a citrus candle, like a grapefruit kind of candle.

[Christine]

So hard not to just light them up.

[Em]

That's exactly right.

Oh, here we go.

[Christine]

Fall out Boy.

[Em]

Oh, we're done. Okay, great. That's it.

[Christine]

That's all.

[Em]

You get sick.

[Christine]

Renew. I know. I know. I say sometimes it's shocking how I have to feed my daughter every day. Well, sometimes it's shocking that every year I'm supposed to go back to the doctor. And I'm like, I just did that.

[Em]

I know. I thought I'd be getting a pat on the back and a thumbs up and a.

[Christine]

A sticker.

[Em]

There you go. And then I would never have to come back. But, yeah, unfortunately, I. We have to go back all the time. And people like me, where we just have constant rearranging illnesses. I got me and this doctor, we're literally on a texting basis. At this point. So how'd you meet? You want to know?

[Christine]

I got. I want to know two words for you.

[Em]

Smash together into one word.

[Christine]

Oh, wow. And it rhymes.

[Em]

That's awesome. It arrives.

[Christine]

ZocDoc is a free app and website where you can search and compare high quality in network doctors and click to instantly book an appointment. I can't promise that you'll be on like a texting basis with your doctor, but I guess that happens for some people.

[Em]

If you're lucky, you just might find the one you've been waiting for. You can filter for doctors who take your insurance, are located nearby, and are a good fit for any medical need that you have and are highly rated by verified patients. Zocdoc in general was.

Let'S just put it this way, that it was saying highly by Christine. And if it weren't for Christine, I would have never even heard of ZocDoc. And this was years ago. And when, when I started using it, I've never turned back. It's.

[Christine]

I never got a cent of commission for that.

[Em]

But I tell you what, you're owed a lot.

[Christine]

Thank you.

[Em]

I'm in the red, certainly.

[Christine]

Stop putting off those doctor's appointments and go to Zocdoc.com drink to find and instantly book a top rated doctor today.

[Em]

That Z O c d o c.com drink zocdoc.com/drink.

Help me. I can't. I don't, I don't know how to use my bank sometimes.

[Christine]

Get out of that old school bank.

[Em]

I, I'm. I'm struggling constantly. Well, not anymore. These days, now that we have time. But I'll tell you, my history with the banking was not very good.

[Christine]

Yeah, well, I don't imagine anyone's is like very good. And if it is, then stop bragging.

[Em]

Okay?

[Christine]

No, not you. I mean the people who say they're great at banking. Naturally. I feel like it's not something any of us learned 100% but. Chime. Don't worry guys, it's not just another banking app. They unlock smarter banking for everyday people. With products like my pay giving you access to up to 500 of your paycheck anytime. Paid up to 2 days early with direct deposit and some old banks. Old banks. Am I right? Don't even.

[Em]

Yeah, you can forget overdraft fees. Thank God. If I knew, if I knew, if I knew that was a future for me, I would have. Oh my gosh. Hallelujah. Also, they help you build your credit history stress free. And you get paid when you Say so up to $500 too.

[Christine]

They also have the new Chime card, which is a way to build credit history with your own money and get rewarded every day. Chime is not just smarter banking. It is the most rewarding way to bank. Join the millions who are already banking fee free today.

[Em]

It just takes a few minutes to sign up. Head to chime.comdrink that is chime.com drink. Chime is a financial technology company, not a bank. Banking services, a secured Chime Visa credit card and my pay line of credit provided by the Bancor Bank NA or Stride Bank NA. MyPay eligibility requirements apply and credit limit ranges $20 to $500. Optional services and products may have fees or charges. See chime.com feesinfo advertised annual percentage yield with Chime+ status only. Otherwise, 1.00% APY applies.

[Christine]

No min balance required.

[Em]

Chime card on time. Payment history may have a positive impact on your credit score. Results may vary. See chime.com for details and applicable terms.

Christine, I have a story for you from.

Arizona.

[Christine]

Oh.

[Em]

Everyone, please pardon my seeming confusion because I have had the. Had these notes for a while. So I have not. I. We're gonna learn together. It's one of those episodes. So.

[Christine]

But guess what? My story is also from Arizona.

[Em]

Bisbee.

[Christine]

I have no idea what you just said, so. No.

[Em]

Oh, Bisbee, Arizona.

[Christine]

Nope.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

Nope.

[Em]

That been crazy.

[Christine]

That would have been a little weird.

[Em]

So this is the Copper Queen Hotel.

[Christine]

Ooh.

[Em]

And.

Very excited. I have plans to visit this hotel one day. It sounds very spooky. Ooky. And yeah. We'll get into it. So Bisbee, Arizona, you know it well.

[Christine]

And this is very familiar. Just heard about it a minute ago.

[Em]

Yeah. We can't stop talking about it.

[Christine]

Can't stop.

[Em]

So in the 1800s, the town of Bisbee had a mine called the Copper Queen Mine. Right. And it made Bisbee a super successful mining area. And that mine alone produced. I was gonna make you guess, but there's no way you would know. Mining quantities 3 million. Okay. Apparently, this.

[Christine]

Of copper.

[Em]

We're not even miners. And this is.

[Christine]

You don't even know how to say it. So. Yeah. No, we're not.

[Em]

No. Because I was thinking like miners, like children. I was like, differentiate.

[Christine]

Okay, Fair enough. Fair enough. Fair enough.

[Em]

We're not even minors. However, I. This. These numbers still look successful. I would argue you're impressed. Speaking for you. So that mine alone, the Copper Queen mine, in its time in the 1800s, was able to produce around 8 billion pounds of copper.

[Christine]

I was close by. Not even a little bit by. Not even like an iota. Yeah.

[Em]

3 million ounces of gold.

[Christine]

Jeez.

[Em]

And 77 million ounces of silver.

[Christine]

That's crazy.

[Em]

Yeah. That's a. I. That's a lot of metal. And it. It. Being that successful meant that many mining executives would want to stop in and check on the production law. Higher ups were in.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

That's like, how's my favorite branch doing? Yeah. My favorite mind doing okay.

[Em]

Words out of my notes. Yes, Christine.

So since these higher ups would show up and want to see the place, they needed a fancy hotel. It seems. Again, I'm so sorry. That after. They always do, it's like, oh, well, where there are executives, there are hotels.

[Christine]

There's gotta be a business center. 100% with a printer.

[Em]

And then if it's in the 1800s, it's also gonna be the brothel or something. I don't know.

[Christine]

That's right. We might as well mash them together.

[Em]

Yeah. Just make it. Make it the town, everything. The school, the chapel, the bar.

[Christine]

The bar.

[Em]

So a fancy hotel was built for the higher ups. And future higher ups are like, potential investors coming into the area. And the hotel was funded by a company. You do not need to know this name, so don't feel like you have to remember this, but fun fact. The hotel was funded by the Phelps Dodge Mining Company. They. The only reason I mentioned them is because they were also in charge of the mine. So it was. It was almost like they saw the profit coming out of the mine, and they were like, we'll use that money to build a hotel to make this a continuous thing.

[Christine]

Okay. Okay. Okay. I see.

[Em]

I also once covered a hotel called the Jerome Grand Hotel, which is also in Arizona. And they also operated that building for a while, too.

[Christine]

Okay, fun fact.

[Em]

So they're. They're all over the place. This company.

It made the most sense for that mining company who was in charge of both things. It made the most sense for them to be in charge of both things. If they wanted the businessmen to come back to their hotel while looking at their minds. And it was. Was just going to be a big money bag for them. So that's how we got where we are and why this hotel stands now. In 1902, the hotel was completed. And this was actually, fun fact. Ten years before Arizona was even a state. So it's older. It's so weird to think it's older than Arizona. And it's over 100 years old.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

It's also the longest Operating hotel in Arizona. And nowadays it's on the National Register of historic Places. And when they first built it, they had to finagle how to keep the hotel temperature controlled because it was Arizona.

So another fun fact, the walls are two feet thick for insulation, which feels.

[Christine]

That just sounds creepy.

[Em]

Thank you for saying that because I thought so too. And I was like, am I making something up with this?

[Christine]

My brain immediately thinks of H.H. holmes. I'm like, soundproof walls. I don't like this already.

[Em]

My first thought was, oh, not easy to escape.

[Christine]

Yeah, Like a prison sort of thing.

[Em]

Yeah, yeah. Shawshank Redemption kind of stuff.

[Christine]

Yeah, exactly like that.

[Em]

100. So originally this hotel had 78 rooms with a bathroom on each hallway, which meant it was a one shared bathroom per however many were on.

[Christine]

However many executives were on the floor.

[Em]

Yeah, yeah. But then eventually, after renovations, like let's say there were three rooms. Let's say on a hallway, there's. There's three rooms and then another three rooms and another three rooms. In those three rooms, they would take the middle one and turn it into.

[Christine]

Two bathrooms like a. Oh. Oh. So it wasn't even a shared bathroom yet still. It was.

[Em]

They would just split basically that room in half and give everyone a bathroom.

[Christine]

So that's pretty nice.

[Em]

That's how we came out with all the bathrooms. So if you are in that hotel and you are sitting in the bathroom listening to this. No, it used to be a hotel room.

[Christine]

Yeah, that's. Oh, that's pretty cool. Yeah, yeah.

[Em]

So the hotel brought in very powerful people right away. A lot of celebrities stayed here. Some of the people include Marlon Brando, John Wayne, Julia Roberts, who I just can't get enough of Love, love, love Kiefer Sutherland. Don't you have a thing about him?

[Christine]

No, but it feels like I would, doesn't it?

[Em]

It does. He's giving kind of like, oh, my God. Shoe law energy.

[Christine]

I probably would get them confused and have.

[Em]

So, yeah, maybe that's why I think you have a thing for him, because you wouldn't stop saying Keefer Sutherland. But it was Jude Law's face or something.

[Christine]

I think that you. Yeah, that might be your Jude Law or something.

[Em]

You know, maybe also Michelle Pfeiffer, who I also love. There was Nancy Reagan, Teddy Roosevelt and Harry Houdini, My number one.

[Christine]

Oh, wow.

[Em]

He has stayed here. So although there have been many renovations since then, the aesthetic has not changed. So it's still. It's like our perfect marriage because it is a Victorian building, Western themed hotel.

[Christine]

Oh, how cool is that? Yeah.

[Em]

Dream very Hoco Hotel Congress when we stay in Tucson, which is also in Arizona, which is.

[Christine]

Yeah, that feels very old town. Old cowboy town. Yeah.

[Em]

Yeah. Wild West Arizona. They love a theme.

[Christine]

They love a cowboy.

[Em]

Just move there.

[Christine]

Just move there. I might.

[Em]

Speaking of cowboys, hold on to that thought and how much you love them, because I got something to say later.

All the way down to the metal keys. Just like Hotel Congress, actually, which we've also covered. They have. This hotel still has original metal keys for each room. They have the original safe behind the counter. The restaurant in the hotel still has a menu of the 1902 items that they used to serve here.

[Christine]

Oh, cool.

[Em]

So you can eat what they ate in 1902. Now that gets me going.

[Christine]

Wait, do they still have the. What do you mean? They still have the menu? Like, they have, like, the actual. Where they literally serve the menu.

[Em]

They serve the menu. I know, I know.

[Christine]

That's cool.

[Em]

I know. I'm looking for reasons for you to not go here.

[Christine]

Yeah. You're not finding any.

[Em]

Can't find them. The menu is not online. Because obviously I wanted to list things for you. Sure. We're from 1902, but I did decide, and I don't remember doing this, but I'm so proud of myself.

They didn't have 1902 food or the menu, but I decided to look up what might have probably been on that menu.

[Christine]

I love that. Yeah.

[Em]

Popular foods in 1902. Do you want to take a whack at it or you want me to just tell you?

[Christine]

You know, my brother and I were just reading old reviews or old menus on beach. You Sandy. Let me guess. Is there some sort of, like, a partridge or a quail or some sort of bird adjacent?

[Em]

I'm going to lump that in with hunting meats. The game.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Em]

Because a big popular thing back then was, like, elk and caribou, like, things you could hunt for. For.

[Christine]

Yeah. Okay. Okay. Yeah. What about, like, some soups? Some weird soups?

[Em]

I.

[Christine]

That's not cowboy enough. I'm thinking we read a menu of the waldofrestoria. I think it's probably a different vibe.

[Em]

Well, let's put it this way. It is, like, yes, cowboy vibe, but this is for higher ups. This is for, like, executives. The executive fancy.

[Christine]

Okay. Okay. Okay. I'm thinking quail. I know. I already kind of said that. I'm thinking probably Right. Like cream of celery soup. I'm thinking some sort of gelatinous substance with gross things inside it.

[Em]

You're kind of close with gelatinous, so I'm gonna lump that. I'm really trying to hand you your flowers here.

[Christine]

Thank you. I am not doing a good job at reciprocating.

[Em]

Jelly is involved.

PB&J was invented this year.

[Christine]

No way.

[Em]

And apparently it was like a thing on restaurant menus because it was like, the new thing. Wow. And then the other one I listed on the east coast at least was Oysters Rockefeller had just been invented. I see.

[Christine]

Okay. Okay. So you think it made it all the way there yet?

[Em]

I don't know. I don't think they could ship oysters by horse.

[Christine]

I mean, I don't know. God bless them if they tried. That would have ended real bad for. For a lot of people, I think.

[Em]

I will also say at the time, only rich people could afford sugar. So a place like this would have probably boasted that they had desserts. You know what I'm saying?

[Christine]

Oh, wow.

[Em]

I also looked up popular desserts at the turn of the century. And by the way, just because sugar was hard to find, sweetened like tea and coffee was in itself a dessert.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

And then other popular ones at this time were apple pie, pudding brownies. Devil's food cake had just been invented.

[Christine]

Ooh.

[Em]

And baked Alaska.

[Christine]

Oh, is that. That's ice cream.

[Em]

Yeah. It always blows my mind that ice cream existed before, like, the 40s.

[Christine]

Yeah. It's hard to imagine. Wow.

[Em]

Anyway, some of the things that might have been on the menu.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Em]

Throughout the years, the hotel has seen a lot and become known as one of the most haunted hotels in the area. And some of the rooms are even named after the celebrities and ghosts who reside here.

[Christine]

Fun fact.

[Em]

So if you are at this hotel or planning to be at this hotel and you would like to request a room, room 211 is the John Wayne room. I guess it's where John Wayne stayed when he lived here. Stayed here.

[Christine]

That's cool.

[Em]

The room 312 is the Houdini room, and that's where he stayed, so that's cool.

[Christine]

I can't decide which one I want to be in.

[Em]

I'll. I'll do Houdini. You do John Wayne?

[Christine]

I do John Wayne. That makes more sense.

[Em]

Room 406 is where Teddy Roosevelt stayed. And then the next two rooms aren't going to mean anything to you yet, but 3:15 is Julia's room, and 412 is Billy's room.

[Christine]

We're not talking Julia Roberts, I'm guessing.

[Em]

I wish. But no.

[Christine]

Because then I'll take Houdini you take Julia Roberts.

[Em]

I would love a chance at a Julia Roberts room.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

So, yeah, the two you don't know yet are 315 and 412. Those are Julia and Billy, and you're going to hear about them in a second. But now we're just going to get into the ghosts.

So an employee here named Jenna, she's also the daughter of the owner, so she's there a lot and has held pretty much every job there. Jenna is, like, very pro. This place is haunted. Holy shit.

[Christine]

Go, Jenna.

[Em]

So Jenna has been interviewed a few times, and this is one of the first quotes I saw from Jenna. There's absolutely stories that are like, oh, we heard a bump in the. In the night, or we got a spooky feeling. And then there's stories that are like, we walked in the room and furniture was flying across the room. Or I woke up in the middle of the night and there was a woman on fire standing in front of me, so.

[Christine]

Oh, sure.

[Em]

So those are two things that she.

[Christine]

Run the gamut. Yeah. Yeah. Hard to pin it down, really.

[Em]

And you know what? That one story about a woman on fire standing in front of them while they sleep did not find that anywhere else. Which means there are a lot of stories to uncover. Imagine, I imagine if I got Jenna on the horn.

[Christine]

On the horn.

[Em]

Maybe we'll do that for a. A bonus content or something. We'll. We'll. I'll just call facilities.

[Christine]

Please. Just dial 0. Yeah. See if they can give us some information.

[Em]

Get me Bisbee on the horn.

So, yeah, so that. That was one of the first quotes I saw from her where she's like, we just get all sorts of stories from people.

[Christine]

That's wild.

[Em]

Guests hear voices in their rooms. They hear old radios playing that don't exist anymore. People smell weird things, and I'll leave it at that. But it runs the gamut. Doors shake and slam by themselves. If you lock yourself out, you'll come back with a new key and your door is wide open, so you don't even need the keys at all.

[Christine]

Oh, that's. That would make me a little bit paranoid, I think, and pissed.

[Em]

I'd be like, why then did you do this?

[Christine]

Why is there even a key if you're not gonna.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Adhere to the rules of a key.

[Em]

Now that's a good point. And by the way, if these are, like the old skeleton keys, you can't. It's not like it's a digital thing, and you can blame that. It's just like someone Keeps locking it as you unlock.

[Christine]

The thing is that the pins are actually moving. Yeah, that sucks.

[Em]

Oh, well. So people will get phone calls with nobody on the other end. Classic.

Frames will move themselves or get thrown off of the walls on their own. Electronics will instantly drain. There is a ghost of a former employee named Rose who apparently sits in a chair in the lobby watching the front door. And the current employers, or at least the one employer I saw talking about it, was like, oh, yeah, there she is. And I. And apparently, it's so quick that they don't even. They're not able to totally piece together her description. They just know that she's in a dress. She's sitting in the chair, and she's looking at the door.

[Christine]

That makes me wonder if she almost just leaves more of an impression than, like, you actually see her. I know that's, like, kind of a stretch of a thought, but it's like, you know, sometimes, like, I'll be walking to my house, and I'm like, oh, the. The Victorian ghost woman's there. And I'm like, but I didn't see her. I just kind of know she's there. I don't know.

[Em]

I don't wish for your life sometimes.

[Christine]

Listen, I accepted that long ago. Don't worry.

[Em]

That's horrific. But, yes, exactly like that, I would imagine.

[Christine]

She's pleasant. She's lovely.

[Em]

Okay. There could be worse.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

Jenna. Also, I never saw this anywhere else, but I think it was Jenna. Or it was. I'm pretty sure it was Jenna. If not, it was another employee that they were interviewing. I didn't see this anywhere else, but apparently there's a whole ghost in the kitchen alley area named Sal, who's, like, known to be, like, this grumpy guy who, like, people just see him standing in the alley like an ax murderer.

[Christine]

Yeah. I'm immediately threatened by Sal.

[Em]

Yeah. If your name is Sal. I'm Sal.

[Christine]

Alone.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Is a problem for me.

[Em]

We start at a deficit. When your name's Sal, I'm like, what, are you gonna shake it out to prove, my bud?

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

Kids will appear in your photos. There was what? I know.

[Christine]

That was loud.

[Em]

There was one photo of, I guess, a birthday party, and there were two little kids in the crowd that nobody knew.

[Christine]

I mean, that's sad.

[Em]

You know, it is sad, because it's like, now they just. They just want to go to a party.

[Christine]

Party. I'm glad they got to go.

[Em]

I guess that also makes me wonder who has come to my parties that was not invited. Oh, I don't know.

[Christine]

I hope a lot of little ghost children came to your parties.

[Em]

Yeah, I.

[Christine]

You had Barney. You had the real Barney at your party.

[Em]

Yeah, that was a. I don't know if any other ghosts showed up because they all secretly knew it wasn't really Barney.

[Christine]

They were like, this is so embarrassing. We have to watch.

[Em]

I think they looked at each other and made, like, a face. They're like, we have to leave before it gets really embarrassing.

[Christine]

Cringe.

[Em]

So kids will appear in your photos. Heavy, heavy furniture will move itself within seconds of you not looking. Which I'm gonna need you to remember that because I have something to say on that later. Huh?

[Christine]

Huh?

[Em]

Do you know what I mean by that?

[Christine]

No. I assume you mean, like, the thing about. I thought you're gonna say the thing about, like, oh, it. Does it move? Or does it just, like, Apparate? But we've talked about that a million times.

[Em]

That's a great guess. No, it's not that, though. You'll. You'll understand.

[Christine]

Okay. Okay. I hope so.

[Em]

Oh, you'll understand. So one guest lost her room key and later found it literally floating in front of her face.

[Christine]

Yeesh.

[Em]

And apparently.

[Christine]

So you think she lost it? Right. You don't think someone took it? A ghost took it and then hit it and then said, haha, I have it.

[Em]

That is the thought. That is the thought.

[Christine]

With.

[Em]

I haven't gotten there yet, but with the ghost Billy.

Famous for taking things and bringing them back to you. What's even weirder, one version of that story I saw was that it happened when she was in the elevator. And so now I'm like, well, that really. With my head on what gravity is if you're going down. But it's floating here.

[Christine]

Well, maybe he's standing there.

[Em]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Christine]

You know, holding it.

[Em]

And like, it does feel a little like the room that you decided to free from.

[Christine]

Yeah. And also, like, does that mean ghosts can, like, adhere to the rules of an elevator, but they can walk through walls also? I don't know.

[Em]

I truly. You're saying every single thing I thought. Because I was like, how does gravity work when you don't have any gravity.

[Christine]

I know. And you don't have to adhere to it. It's weird.

[Em]

You would think if a ghost walks into an elevator and then the elevator goes down, they're now just floating in the elevator.

[Christine]

They just. Like their head would be. Right.

[Em]

But why are they? Why? I mean, I guess do whatever the fuck you want. Yeah. I don't know.

[Christine]

Fine. Whatever. Do what you want.

[Em]

I guess I'll never figure it out. Okay. The hotel was. Is also famous for having very few hotels have this. And it is always my favorite, a ghost log.

[Christine]

Oh, I love when they do that.

[Em]

Yeah, they're. That was a big selling point on a lot of articles about this place. They're like, we have a ghost log. It's like, okay, calm down. I know.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

And it's at the front desk for people to sign, apparently. I think I was reading this wrong because I feel like this. Like some of these pages should have been ripped out and framed if what I'm thinking is true.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Em]

It they. I saw something about how even like Houdini and Teddy Roosevelt wrote in the ghost long about what they saw. But what I think it meant because it was kind of written in a weird way. What I think they meant is things have happened in the Houdini and the Roosevelt rooms.

[Christine]

Oh, okay. Okay.

[Em]

And people have wrote about it because I was like, why are we not, like, framing Teddy Roosevelt's ghost story?

[Christine]

Why haven't I heard about signature. His handwritten signature and ghost story. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Em]

Anyway, if you happen to be there, check the ghost log and let me.

[Christine]

Know if for a Houdini flourish in there. See if it's in there.

[Em]

Which, by the way, that it makes even less sense because Houdini was such a skeptic. Right.

[Christine]

True point. True point.

[Em]

True point.

Yeah. There's a lot of entries in this ghost log. And basically, when it comes to the ghosts of the Copper Queen Hotel, there are. They've counted up to 16 ghosts.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Em]

However, there are three main ones that are like the famous ghosts. One of them is a guy that only one source called him Howard. Everyone else has just kind of called him the old man. So I don't know why Howard got that name. But he's a shadowy figure of an old man with a long white beard and long white hair. He wears a top hat and a black cape. He sounds like the hat man to me.

[Christine]

Is he okay? It sounds like he is confused.

[Em]

I was like, why are you just lingering in the hall?

[Christine]

He just has, like a beard and a top hat and a cape. Like, hello, are you. Maybe he's like a Houdini impersonator.

[Em]

Yeah. Or maybe like a higher up from the 1800s, I guess. Would they wear a cape?

[Christine]

Oh, and like a monocle or something?

[Em]

Yeah, I do like a railroad work.

[Christine]

A oil baron or some shit, you know?

[Em]

You know why I think.

That ghosts lingering in a hall is creepy? Because I feel like Everyone thinks it's creepy, but there isn't a real reason for it. I think it's because it always feels intentional. Because as living people, none of us are lingering in a hall. So it's not like it's a residual ghost. It feels like it's staring you down.

[Christine]

Or if it is residual, why is he just lingering in the hall during his lifetime? I'm also concerned about that. Yeah, if it's like he used to linger here, it's like. That's a bad. That's a problem.

[Em]

If anyone has, like, a grandpa who just lingers in his own hall, that's horrible.

[Christine]

I'm sorry about that.

[Em]

Maybe bring him somewhere else.

[Christine]

Maybe him buy the cape away to defend him, just in case that means.

[Em]

You'Re dragging him from behind.

[Christine]

Okay, I know, but, like, he probably has a cane he can lean on. It's okay.

[Em]

This guy, he also smells like cigar smell. Smoke. Apparently you can smell cigars right before he appears. And he's often seen on the hallway on the fourth floor specifically. Okay, Jenna, the original owner's daughter who has also worked here, she said that an old owner actually died in room 401, which would have been on the fourth floor.

He died in room 401 when he had a heart attack after getting caught cheating on his wife. So in the moment of being caught, had a heart attack from, like, the stress and shock of it all.

[Christine]

Oh, no.

[Em]

So the thought is that.

[Christine]

Was he doing it in his cape? Because that's pretty gnarly, honestly.

[Em]

If he was, that's a cool story. If someone ever.

[Christine]

Sweet.

[Em]

If someone ever told me they hooked up with someone and the guy was wearing a cape, I'd be like, that's.

[Christine]

Oh, my God.

[Em]

That's somehow ten times better. Me. Maybe someone else thinks that's weird, but I would love.

[Christine]

Go on, please tell me more.

[Em]

I would love to collect that story.

[Christine]

Oh, my God.

[Em]

There's weirder things you could dress as. Certainly that's true.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

I mean, also, I can't imagine, like, I don't even know how you would feel as either of the women watching him. Watching him have a heart attack. All of this sounds because of the situation.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

Anyway, they apparently heard that story and have associated it now with him. However, that was also an interview I heard from her. Any other source has not given that story. They've just said there's an old man and some say that maybe he died here, but we don't know. So I'm gonna go with the original owner's daughter or the owner's daughter.

[Christine]

That feels like a better source. Yeah.

[Em]

She seems to be really into this stuff, so I'm just gonna go with what she's saying. Some have said that he's a negative presence, which I would agree, since.

[Christine]

Cheating bastard.

[Em]

And people also find him in reflections, and also not just next to you at the hall, but at the end of the hall.

[Christine]

So, like, reflections is bad because then it feels like he's trying to hide. I hate, like, he forgot about his reflection, you know?

That's bad, isn't it?

[Em]

I hate that.

That would be confirmed, I think if anyone ever saw him in the mirror, like, trying to hide, like, oh, I forgot you can see.

[Christine]

Oh, like, ducking out of sight. Yeah.

[Em]

Oh, Christine, that was a. That gave me a little. Little bumpy.

[Christine]

Now you're freaking me out.

[Em]

Oh, I hate that. Hate that.

[Christine]

I don't like when you get scared. When I get scared.

[Em]

I also don't like the idea of, like, reflections includes inside of your own room.

[Christine]

Like, oh, yeah, if it's the hall.

[Em]

At least I can leave the hall. I can't leave my mirror.

[Christine]

Privacy. Yeah, no, that's bad.

[Em]

There was one. I can't stop. They're really just. They won't go away. Oh, no.

[Christine]

Is he there? Look in the reflection.

[Em]

There is one story someone had where she was in a hallway and looking at a display case and saw a man standing behind her, also looking at the display case. And so she stepped out of the way to let him see better. And when she turned around, no one was there.

[Christine]

Ew.

[Em]

Hate that.

[Christine]

That is spooky, dude.

[Em]

It's, like, also on my legs. I know.

[Christine]

I'm getting freaked out, man. You're freaking me out.

[Em]

There is. I think this was an employee. Her name's Marissa, who said. Oh, this is literally the story, the display case. So it was. It was a guest named Marissa. Yep.

[Christine]

And she's like, I'm just gonna be polite. Oh, God.

[Em]

Yeah. This is the quote. While reading the articles in the display case, I could see the reflections of people walking behind me. And I noticed that a gentleman had stopped, and he was looking over my shoulder, reading the same thing I was. He looked like a very nice person. So I turned to say hello, and there. And no one was there. Horrid.

[Christine]

Thanks.

[Em]

A guy in a different room. He woke up for no reason in the middle of the night and noticed, quote, a thin veil of smoke entering the room through the door. My first thought would be, there's a fucking fire. Yeah.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

Not him.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Em]

My eyes Were irritated. But I continued watching the haze fill the room with unnatural slowness.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Em]

The apparent then appeared the outline of a man dressed in a waistcoat pacing back and forth in the smoke. And just as fast, he was gone.

[Christine]

So, like, it makes me wonder, like, is the smoke just there so you can see him? Is that, like, what he's able to be, like, reflected in? Or is it like, he's made of the smoke? Or is that. Just follow him around everywhere he goes? Like. Like from the peanuts. Like, I don't understand. Smoke is.

[Em]

Yeah, I don't. You know, it feel. It sounds like you're right. That it's almost like if without the smoke, you wouldn't be able to see his cutout.

[Christine]

Yeah. Yeah, right? Like, it feels like. Oh. Until there was enough of the fog machine going. Like, the lights. You know how, like, strobe lights kind of get.

[Em]

I was literally gonna say, like, lasers, like, when the smoke moves.

[Christine]

Yeah, the lasers.

[Em]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Christine]

So it's. Which.

[Em]

That. If that's true, Christine, that freaks me out even more because it means he's already in your room doing other stuff. You just can't see without the smoke.

[Christine]

He's like, oh, he can't see me yet. Let me just. Just get a little fire going.

[Em]

And was the smoke. Was that just, like, a secondary thing happening that let you see him?

[Christine]

Oh, it was that intentional?

[Em]

Or was it intentional, in which case.

[Christine]

Actually on fire or like, hello.

[Em]

And also, if it was him, why did he pick you? And why was it intentional for you to see him? And why did he need the smoke for you? Couldn't he have done something else without smoke to.

[Christine]

I don't know, but I guess he's.

[Em]

Known to smell like cigars, so maybe the smoke.

[Christine]

Oh, maybe he was smoking a cigar.

[Em]

Maybe that's it. Maybe. I think. I think he figured it out. I think he was smoking a cigar, and that was part of the residual energy.

[Christine]

Okay. Okay.

[Em]

You're so smart.

[Christine]

I'm. I'm like, yeah, that totally makes sense what I said. Uhhuh.

[Em]

Look, Zach Baggins has theorized worse.

[Christine]

All right, okay, fair enough. With less to go on. Yeah.

[Em]

Could this be?

[Christine]

No, it couldn't. But thanks for turning.

[Em]

Well, the second ghost is Julia, who is one of the rooms I talked about earlier. I think she. 315, and she was. They've always got one. It wasn't a bride this time, but similar. It was still a jilted woman. She was a sex worker who fell in love with one of her clients at the hotel. And I don't know if it's because he was married or something, but when she told him her feelings.

[Christine]

You wear a top hat and a cape.

[Em]

Because honestly, now that would make some sense.

[Christine]

Just saying.

[Em]

If they're both from the same story.

[Christine]

See, you're.

[Em]

I'm gonna say it again. I'm gonna say it again. You're literally so smart.

[Christine]

Oh my God. Thank you so much. Omg.

[Em]

Okay, so all we know without Christine's theories that are totally blowing us out of the water here.

[Christine]

Yeah, I'm sure.

[Em]

Her name was Julia Lowell.

[Christine]

Lowell. Okay.

[Em]

Sex worker who fell in love with one of her clients. She told him, he rejected her. I don't know why, I don't know the reason. And she hanged herself in the hotel, apparently because of that.

[Christine]

Oh no.

[Em]

So now men staying here, specifically on the second and third floors, which would go against your theory because he died on the fourth floor with the other woman. I don't know. Maybe it's just too hard for her to go to that space.

[Christine]

Yeah, maybe it just is. Brings to back back too many memories.

[Em]

Well, now men will feel someone climbing into bed with them. She also this. I hate Christine. She pulls the covers off of you and tickles your feet.

[Christine]

I mean, that's not okay in any universe, any generation, any decade. It's not cool.

[Em]

I've never heard lack of consent louder than yeah.

[Christine]

Wow, that's bad. That's really bad. Cut it out.

[Em]

I like though, that maybe that's her way as a ghost where she is like, all right, I'm gonna climb to bed, pull down the covers. It's gonna get crazy.

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah, too crazy. You've crossed a line immediately.

[Em]

Yeah, it's weirdly worse now. I wish you'd.

[Christine]

It's way worse.

[Em]

Did something else that. This is worse.

She is also seen just standing at the foot of your bed and sometimes dancing seductively for you.

[Christine]

Uh huh. Well, she also thought tickling your feet was seductive, so I don't know what seductive means in this scenario, but I.

[Em]

Think they're in reverse order. I think she seductively dances to trick you into feeling like something sexy is about to happen. And then she gets you.

[Christine]

Well, that's a nightmare also. Thank you. She.

[Em]

It's. It's like a. Like part of a routine of like, oh, what's gonna happen?

[Christine]

You know, it's worse than you think.

Go ahead, get your hopes up. It's gonna be bad.

[Em]

It's gonna be bad. Give me your money. You'll see afterwards what I'm talking about. She has also seen dancing by the stairs to lure you up, I suppose. And she's also seen walking through doors into the hall there. Literally. Someone said that they have watched her in their room just leave through the solid door.

[Christine]

Oh, dear.

[Em]

One time a woman ran into her. And this is. This was on a bunch of sources, but nobody gave any explanation for it. So this is up to. Up to the reader's imagination, I guess. But one time a woman ran into her, and the ghost, Julia was sentient enough to know that she bumped into her and looked really panicked. And she said, oh, oh, have you seen anything?

But I don't know what that means.

[Christine]

Oh, maybe it means like, oh, did you see anything? Like, like maybe she was doing something illicit. Like, oh, like, did you see what.

[Em]

I was up to?

[Christine]

Like, did you see anything? Or. Or like, you know when people say, like, you didn't see anything, you know?

[Em]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like. And if you.

[Christine]

I don't know.

[Em]

And if you did see anything, I'm gonna get your toes later.

[Christine]

Yeah, you better watch out.

[Em]

Maybe that's what you meant. Have you seen anything? Have you seen what I've done with. With the men's toes?

[Christine]

Yeah, right. Like that's what I. Their toes. Oh, no, no. Swear.

[Em]

All of a sudden I'm triple socked.

[Christine]

All of a sudden crying and wearing like eight. Yeah, eight pairs of socks. Oh, my God.

[Em]

Yeah. Nobody has given an explanation on to what that means. But that is the only instance that someone has had an intelligent experience with her where she's speaking to them. So people in bed also hear her whispering in their ears. And this little piggy went to market.

[Christine]

Yeah, I was gonna say, what could she possibly. Oh, no.

[Em]

One woman actually heard voice in the elevator. Oh, sorry. One guy heard a woman's voice in the elevator when he was alone. And they've equated that to Julia. But he remembers hearing someone laugh as if he, like, made a joke while he was in the elevator.

[Christine]

He was by himself. That's embarrassing. And he's like, I didn't make a joke in it.

[Em]

Yeah, it's like, what are you laughing at?

So her room is 3:15. And the third ghost that I'm gonna talk about, Billy. Reminder, his room is 412. So Billy is allegedly a kid of one of the former staff members. They say that he drowned in a nearby river and was brought back here to his parent.

[Christine]

Oh, geez.

[Em]

Billy was around nine years old. And just like any other kid, he likes to play pranks. And he's now heard giggling and running all over the hotel. I feel like there's always some mischievous little kid in a hotel. A mischievous kid ghost. And kids even see him.

[Christine]

Remember at the Crescent, what was that kid's name?

[Em]

If I say it, it will bring him back. I'm sure. I'm always here.

[Christine]

Let's say it again. Three times in a row.

[Em]

What was his name? He was like the owners when this. When the Crescent was a school. It was the president of the school's son.

And like all the.

[Christine]

No maybe. No maybe.

[Em]

I remember like all the girls in the dorms, like all would play with him. Crescent Hotel ghost.

[Christine]

I keep thinking Michael, but that was New Orleans.

[Em]

Stop trying to bring him back.

[Christine]

I can't help it.

[Em]

Brekkie.

[Christine]

Brekkie. Oh, bud.

[Em]

Christine. It literally says the Crescent Hotel ghost boy. Likely refers to a ghost of a young boy named Brekkie or sometimes Michael.

[Christine]

What?

[Em]

How did you summon that? How.

[Christine]

Are you serious right now?

[Em]

How did you do that to me?

[Christine]

No clue. Sorry about that. That was really not my intent.

[Em]

Evil of you. Take it back.

[Christine]

I love that name.

I won't.

[Em]

I think it's because it wasn't like his mom's maiden name like Breckenridge or some like something like that.

[Christine]

I feel like it was like his middle name or something.

[Em]

Yeah. Look at us piecing it together.

Well, not Brecky or Michael. I don't know how you came up. That's so weird that you just did that.

[Christine]

I mean, yeah, sure. Yeah. I'm a genius or whatever you said earlier.

[Em]

So Billy is the just like classic quintessential like mischievous kid, ghost boy, whatever, at every hotel. I think I said that already. But he is around nine and he likes to play pranks. He's most known for being heard.

Running through the halls. Sorry, I don't know if you can hear Hank drinking, running through the halls, knocking on doors, giggling. The giggling I cannot tolerate. That's just not gonna happen.

[Christine]

Knocking on doors. Because that feels way too personal. Like, don't know.

[Em]

It also feels sentient again. Like I just.

[Christine]

Yes, it feels like invasive. Yeah.

[Em]

And I get that. It's. If it is really just a little kid, like, obviously he wouldn't know. But as a ghost, I'm like all of a sudden I expect you to totally understand boundaries. Get the away from me.

[Christine]

Yeah, I know, right? Like a normal nine year old would do this exact same thing. An alive nine year old. Yeah.

[Em]

So there's a toy car in the hotel that I guess hotel staff originally brought because of the little kids that would be staying here as guests, but they noticed that the car started moving by itself all the time. Like, it's like. Like it's like a car. Like one of those, like, little tykes cars.

[Christine]

Oh, okay.

[Em]

Oh.

[Christine]

But it's not like. It's not like a Barbie car. It's like.

[Em]

It's like a car to ride.

[Christine]

Okay, okay.

[Em]

Like. Like a. A push up. Like a push.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

You know what I mean?

[Christine]

Yes.

[Em]

Apparently, it rides itself around. It moves by itself, and it's.

[Christine]

Or does it. And it says Billy's child on it.

[Em]

Actually, one kid lost her stuffed animal, and apparently it was found in a random place. One of his favorite things to do is take your items and make them reappear. Allah. The key in the elevator, floating in front of somebody's face. So he's not even trying to hide it. So a kid stuffed animal has been misplaced and found in a weird spot. Coins that are in the dresser are now have been found elsewhere. Many people lose their shoes, apparently. That's a big one for him. He likes to take your shoes.

[Christine]

Shoes. That sounds like a Geo situation.

[Em]

I. That sucks. They're a team.

[Christine]

That sucks. You're right.

[Em]

Sometimes people's wallets, which I. Can you imagine losing your wallet and a ghost took it? That'd be terrible.

[Christine]

I mean. Yeah, I think about it all the time, because every time I lose my wallet, I'm like, maybe a ghost took it. And blaze is like, is this your wallet? I found it in the driveway. And I'm like, oh, there it is. A ghost took it. And he's like, uhhuh.

[Em]

Sometimes people's wallets and clothes will turn up in other areas of the hotel. Jewelry on the nightstand is a favorite of his to play with, and it'll always look rearranged when you go back to it. O. Horrifying.

And he's especially playful in rooms where children are. He will change TV channels. He will yank on your shirts. He will open and close doors. He'll knock things off the tables, actually, when it comes to yanking their shirts, One of the bartenders literally said that her shirt got yanked so hard that it, like, pissed her off. Like, she just went from, like, in a good mood to a bad mood because her shirt just got.

[Christine]

Yeez.

[Em]

She was like, what? And looked down because she assumed it had to be a kid, but she. Like, I've never imagined. I. I don't know if I could just switch into that mood. But, yeah, getting yanked that hard, it's like. It's at least incredibly noticeable.

[Christine]

When I get scared, I get really aggressive. Like, I like punch. Like, I want to, like, punch, you know? So I feel like if somebody, like, scared the absolute out of me, I probably would get really aggro.

[Em]

That's probably what happened here, because I've. I've had things happen where all of a sudden, like, I just, like, switch into, like. Like a state where I'm, like, so upset.

[Christine]

It's like a frenzied state.

[Em]

Yeah. Like when your belt loop gets stuck on a doorknob.

[Christine]

Oh, it's. I mean, really? Yeah.

[Em]

Sets me ablaze.

[Christine]

Wow, wow, wow, wow. Look out.

[Em]

Well, so Jenna, the. The one that I've been getting a lot of these quotes from, she was asked about Billy, and she said, when I stayed in Billy's room, I woke up in the middle of the night three nights in a row. I heard a kid running back and forth, back and forth at the foot of the bed.

[Christine]

At the. In the room. No.

[Em]

And I left candy on one of the sides of the bed. And then in the morning, the candy looked like it had been dragged under the bed.

[Christine]

Oh, no.

[Em]

Under. That's. So for all the people who are, like, monsters under your bed or hide your feet, this is not the hotel for you. Because, you know, people like, I can't have my feet sticking out over the bed because someone will grab me.

[Christine]

Well, and think about this someone's. And think about. What's her name? On her toes? Julia on her toes. Think about the shoes going missing. These people are obsessed with feet, these ghosts.

[Em]

Yeah, that is interesting. I wonder what. Maybe in my mind, because they're all like coal miners and cowboys. Maybe they're like, why are all these feet so clean? What's. What's going on?

[Christine]

Let me take a look. Not even a speck of lint between these toes.

[Em]

It's also said that Billy is scared of water. And if you turn the shower or bath faucet on, you'll hear him cry.

I would take a shower and just be apologizing the whole time. I'd be like, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

[Christine]

I'll be quick. Yeah.

[Em]

So apparently, if you want the room to get more active, you turn a faucet on. That's cruel.

[Christine]

Yeah, it is cruel.

[Em]

Yeah. It's like, how about I scare this little kid?

[Christine]

Yeah. I mean, Zach Baggins.

What.

Am I, a genius again?

[Em]

So anyway, the. There's. There's one guest named Dennis who saw several balloons in the hotel one day sitting on A table for like an event. And when he passed by them, he, he remembered the balloons. He walks out of the hotel. And then. This is a long quote, but it is very interesting. Okay, so he, he leaves the hotel after seeing these balloons. About halfway up the street. I look back at the hotel and I watched as one of the balloons comes bouncing out of the hotel doors, down the exterior steps, out to the middle of the street. And then the balloon made an abrupt 90 degree turn and began bouncing uphill in the, in the middle of the street behind me. I did not notice any wind blowing whatsoever, but I watched the balloon pass by me and continue up the hill and around the right hand curve and out of my sight. So it made two 90 degree turns by itself. The fuck about a minute later, here comes the balloon back around the curve, still in the middle of the road. I shouted, hey, little ghost, is that your balloon? And the balloon stopped moving down the.

[Christine]

Street, made another like, did you see anything? Or what did that lady say?

[Em]

Have you seen anything? It's like just a bouncing balloon making.

[Christine]

Stealing balloons from the conference room.

[Em]

I jokingly shouted, hey, little ghost, is that your balloon? The balloon stopped moving down the street, made an abrupt 90 degree left turn, and came about 10ft and stopped right between my front tire and the car parked in front of me. I said out loud, hey, little ghost, you may want to move out of the way because I'm going to spray some sunscreen on my arms.

How considerate.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Em]

After saying that, the balloon rolled sideways, stopping a few inches from the wall, never touching my front tire or the car bumper in front of me, then made another 90 degree turn and actually moved sideways an inch so that it would not bump into me, my bike, or the thorn bush nearby. Well, thorn bush is a balloon's worst nightmare.

[Christine]

You know what, that's just smart senses right there.

[Em]

I finished my sunscreen spraying and turned around and said, well, little ghost, it was nice to meet you and I'll take your balloon back to the hotel and put it back on the table.

[Christine]

How could you?

[Em]

I'm sure I must have met Billy.

[Christine]

The little boy ghost that day and stole his balloons.

[Em]

Yeah, like he literally was having a good day. He was walking around, he was showing off his balloon around town, and then he was polite to you and you.

[Christine]

In the face with sunscreen.

[Em]

He was an obedient child. You said, you might want to step away. And then he did. And he was patient and kind and not harmful. And then you just said, give me those, give me that balloon. Those were Your exact words, I saw what I heard. That's what they say, anyway. Very creepy. So as for shows that have been here, Ghost Hunters has been here, not Ghost Adventures. And the only thing that they caught was luggage slightly moved by itself, and a blanket might have moved by itself, and they think that that might have been the woman yanking, Looking for your toes, looking for your little piggies. Yeah.

So nothing happened there, by the way. One of my favorite things about Ghost Hunters is that when I need to find out evidence of what happened in an episode, they play it all at the end. It's like, oh, I can just watch this essentially as, like, a quick little clip instead of having to watch the whole episode.

[Christine]

Oh, okay. Meanwhile, I don't. I haven't watched that in years.

[Em]

So they always go when somebody, like, calls and asks for their help. And so at the end, they'll sit the person down and show them all the. All the evidence they got.

[Christine]

I do remember that.

[Em]

I love that part. But with Ghost Adventures, yet another way that it irritates me is that I have to watch the entire thing.

[Christine]

So catch all the good stuff. You need those minutes, those download minutes.

[Em]

And I understand. And so Ghost Adventures, of course, went here. I do have a picture for you, my sweet Christine, because your favorite ZB dressed up as a cowboy for the affair.

[Christine]

Come on. This is what I'm saying. Like, don't mess with me.

[Em]

I. I want you to know that this. This is your man. This is your man right here.

[Christine]

Hang on. Here comes my man.

[Em]

Get ready so they get to you right now.

[Christine]

God, he loves a dress up day.

[Em]

Well, he saw Arizona was on the docket, and he went, welp, cowboy time.

[Christine]

Sign me up.

[Em]

I will say his cowboy shirt could not be more Ed Hardy.

[Christine]

Oh, God.

Oh, God, oh, God.

[Em]

That's.

[Christine]

First of all, please, Rebel spirit, let's be for real right now.

[Em]

Literally. It's a flowery skull. It says rebel spirit.

[Christine]

Yeesh. What does it say on the front, underneath it? The front gun. Oh, those are guns. Cool. Cool.

[Em]

And then that's him with the saloon. He loves the saloon.

[Christine]

Dorcas. Oh, and a thumb ring.

[Em]

Yep.

[Christine]

Never seen anything like the studded belt. Oh, I just. The skull's surrounded in golden pistols.

[Em]

Do you like what you see? You want to give that a little kissy?

[Christine]

Oh, God, it gives me a headache, honestly.

[Em]

I mean, you didn't say. No. I noticed.

[Christine]

The saloon one is killing me because he looks like such a. Look at his thumb ring.

[Em]

You want to hold hands with that thumb ring?

[Christine]

Shut up. You're the one who wants to intertwine your toes with the Julia ghost.

[Em]

I. Honestly, for the story, I might.

[Christine]

I'm saying I know it about you. I know it like a fact, you know?

[Em]

You know almost everything.

[Christine]

I gotta stop looking at this is upsetting me. It's upsetting my sensibilities, you know?

[Em]

Look, you hold Zach's hand downstairs. I'll take care of the toes upstairs with Julia.

[Christine]

Oh, no. Have you seen anything? You better not have.

[Em]

I'll do a little strip tease for her. Just pull the slot the sock off ever so slightly.

[Christine]

Yeah. Yikes. I don't want to be. I don't want you, girl. Keep that private. Thank you.

[Em]

That's all for you.

[Christine]

Private.

[Em]

Okay, so he dressed up like a cowboy during the walkthrough. Of course, by the way, because Julia was a sex worker. Really opened the door for his comedy routine.

[Christine]

His stand, his type five that he does. Yeah, he loves.

[Em]

And he loves to not say sex workers. He likes to use the P word. Of course. Loves it and just talked about that. You know what? Insert. Insert your best guess here. So before the investigation, they. This is literally a whole new level of out of control for Zach Baggins. Because they were so close to Mexico, they decided to go to the Mexico US Border.

[Christine]

No, of course he did. He would.

[Em]

He literally illegally walked up to the border to touch the wall.

[Christine]

He's such a fool. I can't.

[Em]

They hurt. And he's in. He's in his stupid fucking cowboy shirt too, by the way.

[Christine]

Rebel spirit.

[Em]

It. Okay. He heard gunshots and then. Oh. He also asked border patrol if he could do a ride along.

[Christine]

Hey, can I see that big wall everyone's talking about? Can you show me that cool wall?

[Em]

He was denied his request, of course.

[Christine]

You don't say.

[Em]

But he was not afraid to ask. Luckily, they did not show that part. They, like, turned the cameras off for that. And he was like. Just so you know, they denied us.

[Christine]

Yeah, no shit, Sherlock. Jesus.

[Em]

I didn't think it could get to that level, but literally bad.

[Christine]

That's pretty bad.

[Em]

Literally crossing a line. And that line is called the Mexico US Border.

[Christine]

A literal line. Yeah. Yep.

[Em]

So one worker says that. Hang on, let me read this. Oh, oh, right. Okay. Remember earlier when I told you about the heavy furniture moving? And I said, we'll get back to this later.

[Christine]

Huh? Huh?

[Em]

Okay. So one guy that they interviewed who worked there said that.

He literally, like, he left the room for less than a minute. And.

All of the heavy. Heavy furniture that, like, would usually take two People to move had switched itself around. Super freaky, of course. Zach Baggins wants to put his strength to the test and now has that guy time 45 seconds, or a minute, or however long it was, and tries to move all the furniture himself.

[Christine]

God.

And that's way worse than I could have imagined. Did he move at all?

[Em]

He moved it, but he was out of breath, so I don't know. You make. He. It was not what I wanted to totally see.

But if you wanted to hear Zach Biggins grunting in a cowboy outfit, Christine.

It'S somebody's dream come true.

So then they ended up getting a bunch of EVPs. One of them was put the rope down, which is horrifying because it is horrifying. Julia allegedly hanged herself. Yeah, I also heard. Just get the out. That's what I heard. Get the out.

[Christine]

Oh, that also tracks.

[Em]

And it's also funnier because if I'm right, then they never censored the word on a TV show.

[Christine]

Also very good. Good point.

[Em]

Then they got another EVP when they turned the bathwater on my profit. Little Christine the orb happen.

[Christine]

I knew it.

[Em]

Of course they turn the shower on. They're trying to get Billy. And then they get an EVP that says, billy's hurt.

[Christine]

Oh, no.

[Em]

Which, let's not forget that he's probably scared of water because he died.

[Christine]

Exactly. Exactly.

Buddy.

[Em]

Then. Okay, so I didn't know if you wanted to watch a clip of always. Okay. So if you wanted.

[Christine]

I did that a little less excitedly.

[Em]

Sure.

[Christine]

I guess I have time.

[Em]

If. If you wanted to go to just. It was on Discovery Pl us, as you know.

[Christine]

Oh, hell yeah. Hold on just a moment. Okay, got it. What's the time stamp?

[Em]

It's 3135. And all you need to know is that they asked Billy to move the shower curtain.

[Christine]

Okay. 3135. Okay, let's see.

[Em]

That was creepy. Em. That actually is pretty fucking scary.

[Christine]

I mean, unless Zach is behind the curtain, which I feel. Okay, he's not okay.

[Em]

He was holding the camera and he even you could see him, like, recoil.

[Christine]

He's like, yeah, that was upsetting. And then Nick's like, what?

[Em]

What?

[Christine]

What?

[Em]

What? Yeah, because he's standing next to it and it's pitch black.

Yeah. No, that.

[Christine]

This reminds me of the bathroom at the Queen Mary when.

I was like, don't make me go in there. You're like, go in there, Christine. We're filming. And I'm like, no. And you have to sit on the toilet. No. Get in The.

[Em]

For the record, I was literally about to say, personally, this makes me think of the Queen Mary.

[Christine]

Oh, okay.

[Em]

Because that was my first thought. Anytime something creepy happens in an old hotel shower.

[Christine]

Now with a shower. Yeah, forget it.

[Em]

But that was creepy. I thought I was like, all right, Zach, you. You win this one. Yeah.

[Christine]

You win that round. Unless that is you back there. But M says it's not, so it was not.

[Em]

And they. They seem to also, like, try to test to see if, like, water or a draft or something was actually hitting the curtain.

[Christine]

Yeah. It looks like somebody bumps it, like, from. Oh.

[Em]

Or like a kid hits it or something.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

So also in this episode, they hear truly awful, horrifying footsteps where maybe it's faked, I don't know, but it sounds like terrifying.

[Christine]

Footsteps are always scarier than you realize. Like.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Because when you really hear them in a place that you think is empty or a place where you shouldn't be here, it really is a scary, like, because you know what footsteps sound like. Everyone knows what it is. Is.

[Em]

And it's also. It's a sound that our brains, I think, naturally just, like, turn off, usually in the background. But when you're supposed to hear it, it's like a very scary sound.

[Christine]

Right, right, right. Not good.

[Em]

With the horrifying footsteps. They got an EVP of someone saying, no one's here. Nobody's here.

[Christine]

You didn't see anything.

[Em]

You didn't see a damn thing. Have you seen anything?

[Christine]

Have you seen anything? Because no one's here.

[Em]

Nick also goes over to ask if someone's on the stairs, and they get a pretty clear EVP of someone saying, he's coming over here.

And then the last thing I'm going to say, that's the end for Ghost Adventures. But the last note I have is, in 2017, the hotel started a restoration process, and as of last year, it is now on sale for 12 and a half million dollars.

[Christine]

Wow.

[Em]

So if you would like some ghosts.

[Christine]

As on our budget.

[Em]

Let me think about it.

[Christine]

I'll.

[Em]

I'll get back to you. I'm not sure.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Em]

Anyway, that is the Copper Queen Hotel.

[Christine]

Copper Queen Hotel. I want to talk to Jenna.

[Em]

I do, too. I do, too.

We should make that content where we, like, just interview the owners of or, like, staff from each of these places that I cover. That'd be cool.

[Christine]

It feels like. And we can dress up like cowboys and say inappropriate things.

[Em]

We should just find the exact rebel spirit shirts he was wearing.

[Christine]

Oh, my God. You know how much those cost, right? Probably. You Know, probably far too much.

[Em]

That would actually be a great little spin off if. If we just interviewed all the people from each of the hotels that I covered and just be like, what it. What have you found?

[Christine]

Just be like, tell us. Spill the. Spill the dirt.

[Em]

Spill the dirt. I've covered. This is what the articles are saying, but what are you saying?

[Christine]

Yeah, now is your chance.

[Em]

Yeah. Anyway, that is the Copper Queen Hotel. Hope you had fun.

[Christine]

Wow. Wow. Here I am looking for Rebel Spirit custom denim jacket with gold pistols.

[Em]

You know what the worst part is?

[Christine]

The Internet says we don't know what you're talking about.

[Em]

You know, he custom made it.

[Christine]

So gross.

[Em]

I feel like either he custom made it that morning or he has it in his closet always.

[Christine]

No, he's been. Wait. I think you're right. I think he's been waiting. Waiting for an excuse.

[Em]

I know just the place. Could this be the day that I wear my Rebel Spirit shirt?

[Christine]

Could my rebel spirit finally be making its way onto the big screen?

[Em]

Could my rebel spirit finally be healing?

[Christine]

Oh, my God. Oh, they have a pride party.

Okay.

[Em]

A cowboy hat, cowboy shirt.

[Christine]

Sorry. No, the music, the hotel.

[Em]

Oh, lovely.

[Christine]

Do weddings? They do, yeah. Okay, Bisbee, I love this for you. When they have flash tattoos at the party. What the heck? This is a fun hotel. Jen, Jenna.

[Em]

Arizona really seems to have it together.

[Christine]

Because, dude, they know how to do a theme. Theme. You're right.

[Em]

They love a theme. Every time we've been to Arizona, there's been something themy. I mean, remember Hotel Congress? That was beyond.

[Christine]

They lean into that and they're like, if you don't like, it sucks for you.

[Em]

It literally felt like I had time traveled in that last hotel.

[Christine]

That was so creepy with those stairs and. Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

[Em]

Oh, yeah.

[Christine]

Good story.

So the wildest thing is, like, every day, my child needs more food. Like, what, again?

[Em]

I just.

[Christine]

Just fed you yesterday.

[Em]

The gift that keeps on giving.

[Christine]

It's really shocking. I mean, I guess it makes some sort of sense, but no one warned me about that. But that's why I love hungry root. It helps us save by reducing food waste, avoiding impulse grocery buys where I can. You can imagine I'm not usually good at avoiding those. And it's a game changer. It really does. They ship groceries that fit our health goals, dietary preferences, budget. Leona has a very strict no, no most foods policy, and so we are. We have to be very conscientious of what we feed her. And hung. It's like, don't worry. We gotcha and we love it.

[Em]

And whether you're gluten free or dairy free, high protein, focused on gut health or whatever else, Hungry Root helps you eat well. And after a quick quiz, you know I love a quiz. Their smart cart technology recommends groceries and supplements tailored to your needs. Like having a personal shopper. Again, there's no product I love more than when a personal shopper is involved. And delivery to my door is involved.

[Christine]

It. And it's edible.

[Em]

And it's edible. Are you kidding me? Triple threat.

[Christine]

Take advantage of this exclusive offer for a limited time. Get 40% off your first box. Plus get a free item in every box for life.

[Em]

Go to hungryroot.com drink and use code drink.

[Christine]

That's hungryroot.com drink code drink to get 40 off your first box and a free item of your choice for life. Hungryroot.com drink code drink.

So I've got an Arizona story for you today as well. M. This one is not in Bisbee. But.

But it's in Arizona.

[Em]

Okay, but great.

[Christine]

Too bad. But too bad it's still in Arizona. Okay, so I'm gonna tell you. Where is it? Oh, in Arizona.

[Em]

Oh, right. Okay. You don't have to know the actual.

[Christine]

Town in the desert. I do know that I knew it's in the desert.

[Em]

I was gonna look up how far away our stories were, and now.

[Christine]

Oh, actually that's a good idea.

[Em]

Bisbee to Desert, Arizona.

[Christine]

So it's technically Buckeye. Arizona is. And that's department that's in charge of the case.

[Em]

So, okay, so it's four hours away.

[Christine]

Ah, that's far.

[Em]

Okay, that's not what I wanted to hear. Yeah.

[Christine]

No, no. All right, so I'm going to tell you about the disappearance of Daniel Robinson. This occurred in 2021. Okay, so a little background. Daniel Cornelius Robinson was born January 14, 1997, and grew up in South Carolina in a close, involved family led by his father, who becomes a major player in the this story. David Robinson Senior and his mother, Melissa Edmonds. And I'm going to say up front that this is an unsolved case. And the reason I tell you that is because I'm going to give you a quick description of Daniel because we still don't know what happened to him. Okay. Daniel is black. He's about 5 foot 8, approximately 165 pounds, with black hair, brown eyes. Born with a congenital abnormality resulting in the absence of part of his right forearm and hand. And that visible characteristic has been emphasized in missing persons alerts, which is why I mention It Family and friends consistently describe him as intelligent, soft spoken, curious, loved the outdoors. He worked as a geologist, so that's how he ended up in Arizona. And according to his father, who was very in tune with nature, Arizona was one of his favorite places because it had his scientific interests, you know, in mind. And then all the hiking and rattlesnakes you could ever want. Couldn't be me, but, you know, go for it.

[Em]

No, I'm glad others are out there.

[Christine]

I'm gl. You're enjoying your. Yeah, exactly. Daniel was very close to his family, despite living across the country. His dad said when they got on the phone, they would often talk for two hours or more, and they talked regularly. So Daniel attended the College of Charleston in South Carolina, studied geology, graduated in 2019. And after he graduated, he moved to Arizona to work as a field geologist for a company called. Which. This sounds like a fake company. Matrix New World Engineering. Like, it feels like a fake company.

[Em]

Literally, like, produced by Universal Studios.

[Christine]

Yeah, like New World. Yeah. It's a little creepy sounding, but it's an environmental engineering firm that manages projects such as groundwater assessment, environmental planning, surveying. And he worked as a hydrogeologist. What that means is he would go oversee remote desert well sites. He would travel to these really isolated locations to monitor groundwater, perform sampling, and gather data for engineering and environmental clients. And that required him. His job required him to drive long distances alone into desert areas, often before sunrise, and then work in this hot, rugged terrain that could be difficult to navigate. So terrible. Already, we can probably see where this is going. Daniel also worked a side job delivering groceries through Instacart. And through that job, he sometimes met customers, including one woman that he. He seemingly became infatuated with. And we'll get to that in a little bit as part of one of the theories.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

So the weeks before his disappearance, according to family members, Daniel had been generally pretty happy in Arizona. He liked his job, he liked the area. But in the weeks before he went missing, some people close to him noted that there were slight changes to his behavior.

According to friends, he had been acting not like himself. I don't quite know what that means, and we don't get much detail of that.

But despite these kind of mild concerns, his father and siblings have repeatedly said there was no sign that Daniel wanted to harm himself, had any sort of suicidal ideation, and they still feel that his disappearance was completely out of character. Okay, cut to June 23, 2021. This is the day Daniel disappeared. So in the weeks leading up to this date, Daniel had Been in occasional contact with a woman he met through instacart delivery. According to police summaries and later media coverage, they had spent a brief amount of time together. She invited him in when she and some housemates were drinking, and Daniel developed strong feelings for her that she became uncomfortable with. This is according to the reporting. At some point, she asked him to no longer come to her home uninvited.

[Em]

Fair enough. He. Yeah.

[Christine]

So roughly 18 hours before Daniel disappeared. And this is one of those things that, like, could be a nothing or could be an everything.

18 hours before he disappeared, he sent this woman a text message that was later quoted in reporting on the case. And in this text message, he wrote about believing, quote, the world can get better, end quote, and added that he would either see her again or never see her again. Oh, and, like, obviously, in the context of somebody disappearing, you think, like, oh, my God, that means so much. But also, it's like, if she told you, like, get away, and you're like, fine, maybe I'll never see you again, you know, Like.

[Em]

Right.

[Christine]

I don't know. I don't know that it necessarily means.

[Em]

Yeah, it could. It. It's certainly creepy. Yeah.

[Christine]

Considering the context. Yeah.

[Em]

But it could also just be a guy being jilted.

[Christine]

Yeah. Yes.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Just, like, seeing ever, you know? So it's unclear. And also, like, people debate whether, like, his family says, oh, that. That had nothing. None of the woman in this story has anything to do with, like, his disappearance. But of course, then some people speculate it does, and there's no way to know.

So that message, along with earlier texts in which he told her he loved her and remember, she said, like, please don't come to my house unannounced, and I don't have the same feelings for you. Became part of this kind of timeline, especially because that last one was only 18 hours before he disappeared, and he.

[Em]

And they didn't not know each other. Correct.

[Christine]

I mean, he went over there to drink one time when delivering Instacart, and then, like, hung out for a bit and apparently developed feelings that were unrequited and also much more intense than probably the timeline should allow for.

[Em]

For. But. But not enough to, like, be saying.

[Christine]

I love you is probably not. No.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

It seems like it was an uncomfortable situation on her part.

[Em]

Sure.

[Christine]

So on Wednesday, June 23, 2021, the day he disappeared, Daniel reported to a remote well site near the intersection of Sun Valley Parkway and Cactus Road. The most Arizona thing I've ever heard.

[Em]

Literally. Yes.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

Cactus might as well driven Might as well have driven into a cactus for work.

[Christine]

Yeah. I mean, yeah. Cactus Road in the desert area of Buckeye, Arizona, which of Phoenix and near the Hasayampa River. He arrived at the site at about 9am and he spoke with an employee from another company later identified as a waterworks, a Weber Waterworks employee named Ken Elliott. So Ken Elliott, this co worker, this waterworks employee, met Daniel for the first time that morning. And according to the Dateline summary of a statement, Elliot told police that rain delayed their work briefly and while waiting for the storm to pass. And remember, they're in the desert, so rain is not necessarily like a common occurrence. He noticed Daniel staring off toward the desert and making a comment that struck him as unusual, though we don't know, which is frustrating because we don't know the specifics of what that comment was.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

And then Ken estimated that Daniel remained at the site roughly 15 minutes before abruptly leaving and driving instead of back to the main road toward Phoenix. Phoenix, driving instead deeper into the desert.

[Em]

Oh, yeah. Okay. So it feels like there's maybe a little like, mental health stuff going on.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

I mean, yes, that is one potential angle.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

And it's hotly debated because.

His family does not believe that that's the case.

[Em]

Oh, okay.

[Christine]

You know, they were. They.

Yeah, we'll get into that. It's tough because they, they refuse to even kind of acknowledge that possibility. But also. So you want to give them the. The credit of, like, okay, well, they know their son and they know whether. But, you know, you think he lived thousands of miles away. He's a young man. He's going through it. You know, who knows?

[Em]

He's. He's already. He's saying I love you after one hangout with somebody. And his friends are saying he's acting off and in the middle of a shift. He's just driving into a place, place that is the opposite direction of home. Like some. While saying disturbing comments.

[Christine]

Wrong. Yeah. It just feels bad. And.

Ken later told investigators that Daniel was, quote, not making sense.

Apparently Daniel asked him if he wanted to go to Phoenix together. And he's like, we just met. Like, I don't know you. You know. And the co worker reported that after these 15 minutes, he climbed into his Jeep, which was a blue gray 2017 Jeep Renegade, and drove away without explanation. But like I said, instead of turning left toward the main high way back to Phoenix, the coworker said Daniel turned right at the T junction, driving deeper into the desert. Shortly before that, about 8:10am Daniel's last known text message had been sent to the coworker, Ken Elliott, that he was scheduled to meet, but we do not have the content of that message in the public record. Later that day, when Daniel did not check in with his employer or family and could not be reached by the phone, his absence became a concern. And at some point during the day, his workplace, Matrix New World Engineering, notified Daniel's father back in South Carolina that Daniel had not returned from the work site and could not be reached. I know, just like nightmare, nightmare. According to the advocacy site Uncovered, Daniel's father, David Robinson, has said that when he first called Buckeye police to report his son missing, he was told that he'd probably come back. You know, missing people usually return, and there's a waiting period before a report could be filed. Child the department has not confirmed this. All we have is an official timeline that lists 7pm that day as the time he was officially reported missing and was entered into the national missing persons database. So there's a lot of he said, he said situation going on with the police force. And then Daniel's father saying, like, they botched the investigation. They didn't handle things. They're. They're overlooking discrepancies. And then the police saying, you know, we did everything by the book, and we think this was not foul play. So there's this kind of play of.

Accusations. Daniel's family thinks Ken Elliott knows more than he's letting on or perhaps maybe even had something to do with it or is lying about the situation.

So it's really. It's a hard thing to kind of navigate. David Robinson immediately began arranging travel from South Carolina to Arizona. He drove cross country to join the search and then stayed to do independent searches for his son. So now we're talking June Into July of 2021, no sign of Daniel. June 24, Buckeye Police continue ground searches near the job site. They activate the account, the uconnect account, which I guess is how they were able to locate Daniel's jeep. And they also requested a cell phone ping to see where his phone had been last picked up. And Tempe police performed a welfare check. Also at Daniel's apartment on June 25, a Phoenix Firebird helicopter conducted an aerial search of the desert area. And Buckeye police continued ground searches, but still no sign of anything.

[Em]

Jesus. And also, like, when I'm thinking of ferret deserts there. Okay, whatever. When. Whenever I'm thinking of deserts, I think of just, like, nothing but flat ground, sand, and nothing else. So in my mind, from an aerial View, this should be the easiest search ever. It's like, is there a dog? I mean, on the same.

[Christine]

If you think about it, there he was out there to look at wells. Like that's true in ground wells, I imagine, like you were saying, with mining and all that kind of stuff, you know, or ravines, that kind of thing. But yeah, typically it's not like a forest where you're totally obscured by trees and that kind of thing.

[Em]

Yeah. I would imagine that this, they're thinking, at least this isn't a forest that we have to look through because.

[Christine]

Yeah. Then again, think about how vast it is, you know. Yeah, you have to really, really do a very careful kind of tracking of how you search.

So. In early July, Buckeye police searched Daniel's Tempe apartment. Coordinated further searches with Civil Air Patrol. Patrol did more aerial sweeps of the region. Nothing. By mid September, Buckeye police stated they had searched more than 70 square miles of desert using ground teams, UTVs, cadaver dogs, drones and helicopters. And yet they still have no, no clues as to where he is.

July 19, 2021. This is when they discovered Daniel's Jeep. July 19, nearly a month after Daniel was last seen, a local Rancher discovered his 2017 Jeep Renegade lying on. On its side in a desert ravine on private land. And that's the other thing. You know, if people own the land and they're the only ones with access to it, like maybe it just doesn't get looked at for a while, you know?

[Em]

Right.

[Christine]

So this rancher finds this Jeep and it's lying on its side in a desert ravine on private land approximately three to four miles southwest of Daniel's job site. From that June day. Day.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

Buckeye Police said that rough terrain and the Jeep's position in the ravine made it difficult to spot from the air and from prior ground searches. The Jeep had significant damage consistent with a rollover. The airbags had been deployed, and initial evidence indicated that the driver had been wearing a seat belt at the time of the crash, which is fascinating.

[Em]

Could it, could it have just been a car accident and then he crawled away and something?

[Christine]

Could have been. Sure could have been. And that's why it's so frustrating. It's like there are so many possible explanations, but then just some weird details that don't quite add up, you know?

[Em]

Right. Yeah, especially the. His behavior leading up to this seems. Seems off.

[Christine]

Felt a little erratic. Investigators at the scene found multiple personal effects associated with Daniel. They did not find Daniel, but they found a pair of inside out jeans, a T shirt, two inside out socks, brown work type boots, and a faded orange safety vest with a company logo. They also located a wallet with his college id. They located his cell phone, his car and house keys, and a backpack with work equipment. And not only that, but there was a whole case of bottled water still in the jeep.

[Em]

And he wouldn't have.

[Christine]

He would have known, right? Right.

[Em]

Yeah, I. Unless he like, was acting erratic. So he was driving erratic and then he got in a car accident. I would have to assume you're hitting your head or something for you to be disoriented enough for you to leave your phone and keys and maybe a bottle of water.

[Christine]

And water. Like a whole case of water.

[Em]

Yeah. I feel like he hit his head and just crawled away and got. Got lost, you know.

[Christine]

Again, possible. One of the theories I read online was that. And again, please take this with a grain of salt, everyone. I'm saying read the theory online. And I mean that, that, that's as much, you know, credibility as I have toward these series. But as far as, like somebody mentioned, you know, think about it, if you were in that scenario and maybe you were knocked out for a while and you started to suffer from heat stroke or something in the desert, right? It's like 115 degrees. And then you wake up and you know, you're disoriented, you're suffering from heat stroke. And you know how people begin taking their clothes off when they're either feeling. Have experienced a traumatic situation that happens or when you're suffering from like extreme temperature dysregulation, you know, M. Um, so that would make some sense with the clothes. We don't know if he had an extra pair of clothes with him that he would have changed into. The clothes didn't have blood on them, which was a little bit surprising. Like, there was no blood in the car. But like, yeah, he could have hit his head, he could have been knocked out. He could have been having some sort of break from reality and wasn't thinking clearly, you know, or it could have been foul play. Right. Like, there's no real way to know for sure.

Investigators told Dateline there were no calls for help from Daniel's phone after the crash. And since that day, there had been no cash withdrawn and no signs that he left the scene with money or with any way to communicate. The fact that he apparently left on foot without his phone, wallet or all the water has been described, of course, as one of the most puzzling elements of the scene.

[Em]

100.

[Christine]

And the clothes that were left there do match what Daniel was believed to have been wearing that day. So it's a little strange, you know, why? Like, one shoe was, like, outside the Jeep, one was inside the Jeep. The clothes were tossed off and inside.

[Em]

Out, which means he was just ripping them off.

[Christine]

Right, Right. That too. The socks and everything. There was a hard hat filled with rain water that was also recovered inside the Jeep. And that was consistent with the vehicle having been exposed to some. Some rain over, you know, some weather over a period of time. No blood or clear signs of injury were documented, and Daniel, like I said, was not found anywhere near the crash site. Based on the scene in the presence of Daniel's belongings in the Jeep, Buckeye police stated that no foul play was suspected, describing the situation as a missing person with a vehicle crash. And again, not like, not to make that any less tragic. Right. Of course, if this was a young man who was suffering from some sort of. Of mental episode or.

Suicidal ideation, that just is tragic, you know, and I just still want to find him as much as you would before. But there's just debate as to, like, how he ended up missing. Right after the Jeep was recovered, Buckeye police downloaded crash data from the vehicle's Internal Systems on July 21 and processed the Jeep for evidence July 22. It. In September and October of that year, the department hired a company called Santan Recon, which is a collision investigation firm. So they do, like, independent crash analysis and go to crash sites. And, like, I think it's fascinating. And, like, I didn't even.

[Em]

It didn't even occur to me that would be a job.

[Christine]

Yeah, there's like, forensic everything nowadays, you know, especially because cars have, like, computers, basically.

[Em]

Oh, yeah, okay.

[Christine]

And you can. You can basically test for all sorts of stuff. But even this is debated because people have kind of come away with different conclusions. So Santan Recon, their report concluded that Daniel's Jeep had been involved in a rollover crash and that this crash was the only collision recorded in the vehicle's internal systems. The report stated that the Jeep's speed increased just before impact, which could indicate that the driver attempted to drive up the far side of the ravine, but misjudged the terrain drain and toppled over.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

Crash data logs indicated there were more than 40 ignition cycles after the crash, which is so scary. Which Santan Recon suggested could reflect attempts to either restart the vehicle or to use the electric system like the AC or the radio. The report noted that some of the ignition cycles might have occurred during towing or during evidence download while they Were trying to access the data from the car. Maybe that contributed to some of the 40 starts, but yeah, 40, that's still like 25.

[Em]

That were.

[Christine]

Yeah, exactly, exactly. The report also identified. And this is where people get. This is one of those things that gets debated. The report also identified an approximately 11 mile discrepancy between the crash data mileage and the odometer reading. H and Santan Recon concluded that such discrepancies were not unusual and had been observed by Jeep Service Department before. So they're basically saying, oh, 11 miles, that could just be like a fluke, like some sort of discrepancy.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

Yeah. And so I don't know. I mean, I don't know enough about vehicle forensics or what have you, but Daniel's family says, hey, you need a better explanation for those 11 miles. And some people claim, well, maybe the 11 miles were added when the car was towed to. To the odometer. Maybe those 11 miles were added when it was towed somewhere. Turns out the car was actually towed on the flatbed of a tower truck, so that wouldn't have added to it. So there's just a little bit of like confusion surrounding that fact especially.

[Em]

Interesting.

[Christine]

And it's not like half a mile, right. It's like 11 miles feels. But I don't know, maybe that's just a Jeep thing. Jeep has weird things, you know, Jeep has weird things.

[Em]

I got that death rattle. Yeah. I don't know, like what, what is the limit for when it starts looking weird? I feel like over 10 is weird.

[Christine]

It feels weird. But again, like, maybe I just don't know enough of about cars. I just think about Ferris Bueller when they were like spinning the tires to make the odometer go back.

[Em]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think of Matilda and Danny DeVito when he's like scamming at a car lot. Mileage go down.

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. Wow. Definitely different generational.

Generational call outs.

Okay. So the family was not really feeling it with these results that the police came back with. And so they hired a private investigator creator named Jeff McGrath. He was an accident reconstructionist and a former police officer and detective. And so when he was hired to look into this Jeep crash, he was able to analyze it as well and kind of give his own independent analysis of what happened. McGrath has publicly stated that he believes the crash scene was staged.

I know this is where it gets like, oh, right. So he believes that the crash scene was staged and that the vehicle may have been moved after the initial crash.

[Em]

Move to where, though?

[Christine]

I guess 11 miles from wherever it had initially trashed. Yeah, I don't know. He has said that after the airbags deployed, the ignition appears to have been turned over dozens of times and that crash data logs show an additional distance of these roughly 11 miles after the airbag deployed. Floyd. Suggesting that the Jeep might have been driven after the recorded crash and then left kind of toppled over to look like it had crashed there. Now, of course, this totally differs from the official conclusion, which was that this discrepancy was not unheard of or unusual.

[Em]

I mean, I really was feeling kind of confident in my, like, mental health one and, like, just, like, hit his head.

[Christine]

And now it's sort of one of those where you. You really. You really, really are drawn to one theory, and you're like, that's surely what happened. And then you hear a few more details, and you're like, well, it just, like, wriggles in a little doubt. You know what I mean?

[Em]

Yeah. For an expert to be saying it's not. I mean, that. I'm sure that also, like, didn't help the family come to terms with maybe him having a mental health thing. He was like, well, the experts literally.

[Christine]

Well, exactly. And. And Right. And so they're gonna trust their own, you know, side of the story, and they've really stuck to it. McGrath also reported finding apparent red paint transfer on Daniel's Jeep, which he believes indicates a prior collision with another vehicle before coming to rest in the ravine. So Daniel's father and supporters cite these findings as evidence that someone else may have been involved and that foul play cannot be ruled out. And that's where they differ from the official ruling.

On July 29, 2021, volunteer search crews located a human human skull south of where the Jeep was recovered. But testing determined that the remains did not belong to Daniel Robinson. Oh. In November, more human remains were found. This is how, in depth. I feel like this goes to show how in depth their searches were. They did so many searches. They found two sets of human remains that were not his.

[Em]

That's wild, especially because in a lot of your stories, I end up losing faith and, like, the search process. And I'm like, oh, it feels that they could have done more. And this town is like, we're doing everything we can.

[Christine]

Yeah, well, it's. It's. It's the town. It's his family who came from Arizona. His dad basically uprooted his. I'm sorry, came from South Carolina. His dad basically uprooted his whole life to move to Arizona or At least for the most of the year and spend time searching.

[Em]

Wow.

[Christine]

I was on Reddit, and people were saying, yeah, like, again, grain of salt. But people were saying, you know, I was in the area. I remember when searches were happening, and it was all hands on deck. People were out there. They're doing grid searches, searching over and over again. And the fact that they found two sets of human remains that were not Daniels is pretty wild to me.

[Em]

Yeah. Insane.

[Christine]

Yeah. Buckeye. Police have also said other bones discovered during searches were analyzed, but were confirmed to be animal remains as of mid 2024. Extensive volunteer searches led by Daniel's father and organizations such as Please Help Find Daniel, have covered large areas of desert around Sun Valley Parkway and beyond. But there's still no confirmed trace of Daniel's body, which is so alarming, too, that the car was found and you're able to do, like, almost a search around the car and expand and still find nothing. It's just shocking to me.

[Em]

They also believe that, like, since it was kind of. If it was a setup, that even the clothes being there was a setup.

[Christine]

Like.

[Em]

Like, basically, they.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

They think that whoever did it made the story look so obviously like mental health that I'm just totally following for it.

[Christine]

Yeah. Or just, like, not even necessarily mental health, but just like, oh, I've killed this person. Now I'm gonna leave his car in a ditch and hide the body, make.

[Em]

It look so afflicted or something or whatever it is.

[Christine]

Just act like he crashed. Wow. And. And walked away for help and never came back. Something like that, I think, is. I believe, is the. Is the theory.

[Em]

This has dropped me down a few pegs on thinking I could be a detective, because I'm really convinced the other way.

[Christine]

It's confusing. It's.

[Em]

So where do you stand? Or do you not want to say?

[Christine]

I'll say, I think, at the end, because I. I do. I feel like there's more to kind of add to the.

To the. To the description, to the evidence.

[Em]

Sure.

[Christine]

So police have said they investigated at least one reported sighting of Daniel, because, again, we have no proof that he's even dead. Right. Like, I mean, Aram's razor says, probably, but, like, there's no proof of that.

They concluded that digital evidence from his phone and vehicle did not match any witness accounts that have come through David Robinson. The father has stated that Tempe police forensic review of Daniel's electronics indicated that someone accessed his apartment and used his computer after June 23rd, after he disappeared. Ooh.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

But that's also not anything we have publicly be proven.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

Because the Buckeye police say, nope, our digital forensics did not find any. Any note of that.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

But then the family says Tempe police said that there was somebody searching his Google history, fooling around on his computer, but then the police were like, nope. So it's again, like he said, he said, so it's just really a messy situation and just really tragic. Like I said. Daniel's father has been publicly very critical of the initial law enforcement response, arguing that police were slow to treat his son's case as urgent and did not maximize early resources. He said he has to push for additional research, additional searches, and ultimately just began doing his own large scale volunteer search operations. And I think that's not abnormal for a missing person's case. I feel that that no is a common situation, that it ends up being volunteer led and. And family led.

[Em]

Yeah. His family seems to like, really give a, like super.

[Christine]

Really care to. To their core. Yeah. Other family members have echoed this concern, telling reporters they worry that early delays could have cost valuable time and evidence. Buckeye police in public statements and on the official case page say they've worked continuously on the case, searched more than 70 square miles, coordinated with multiple outside agencies, and remained committed to locating Daniel, reiterating though that foul play is not suspected based on the evidence they have reviewed.

Daniel's father, David, like I said, relocated much of his life to Arizona. He searches and advocates for his son on an almost daily basis. He has organized dozens of volunteer searches in the desert, and by April 2025, he described a major search as their 50th organized effort to search for Daniel. Oh, my God, it's just so heartbreaking.

[Em]

And I can't even tell. I mean, I wouldn't, I wouldn't know know. But to hear that when they found two other sets of human remains, I don't even know if that gives me hope or if that gives me less hope because it's like, oh, well, they were able to find these. We weren't even looking for them.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

So maybe. But then that would. I guess I would mean. But if they couldn't find him, but they could find these other things. And what does that tell you? That.

[Christine]

Yeah, it's almost like, what does that even mean? What does that mean for this case?

The case has drawn national attention from missing persons advocates and other families, in large part because in 2025, Gabby Patito's father, Joseph Patito. Because I don't know if you remember when Gabby Petito that whole, whole thing unfolded. That was during this time that Daniel disappeared.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

And so in 2025, Gabby Petito's father Joseph joined one of the searches for Daniel Robinson and expressed public solidarity with David Robinson and called attention attention to Daniel's still unresolved disappearance. Daniel's family maintains social media accounts dedicated to the search. They don't like to have people come on and say it's mental health or what have you. They're pretty much closed off to that angle. For what it's worth.

You can go on other subreddits like unresolved mysteries and, and see more kind of Occam's Razor style takes of mental health or. Yeah, car crash, that kind of thing.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

As far as we know, there's about a $10,000 reward for information leading to Daniel's whereabouts. That's still active as of mid 2024 into 2025. Daniel Robinson remains missing this year. Nothing new has emerged. No confirmed physical remains have been identified as his. The Buckeye Police Department lists his case as an open missing persons investigation and states on its official site that foul play is not suspected. Investigators say they continue to analyze evidence and they say the FBI was briefed on the case. But Daniel's father says that the police are lying about that. So that's another kind of conflicting story. Daniel's father PIs and many supporters argue that the available evidence, including the condition of the Jeep, the clothing in and around it, the crash data anomalies and the alleged post disappearance computer activity, point toward the possibility of foul play and that they need to look into that angle, which I mean is a fair request, I would say so. As for what we don't know, we don't know much. But it remains unknown why Daniel left his work site after only 15 minutes, drove deeper into the desert instead of back toward Phoenix, and never contacted his family or employer again. There's still no total definitive explanation for the condition of the code crash crash site, including why his clothes and boots were found in or near the Jeep while he was not and why there was no blood or evidence of injury in the vehicle.

[Em]

That's what freaks me out too.

[Christine]

Like I feel weird, right?

[Em]

I feel like if there was foul play there would be at least some evidence of blood. But I guess if the car was moved and you know, maybe something happened.

[Christine]

Well, they're saying they're surprised. There's no sign of blood after a crash crash like that. There was no sign of blood like anywhere in the car. After what seemed to be a pretty big Car crash.

[Em]

I. I guess so. I'm less surprised by that because I feel like it. You could have just flipped and hit your head and that was.

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah, I. I agree. That's kind of. Kind of easily debunked in my mind.

The discrepancy between the official Santan recon crash support, which concluded that the odometer difference was not unusual. Usual. And the PI's view that this appears. The car appears to have been driven after airbag deployment remains unresolved. There's no.

[Em]

That is.

[Christine]

There's no. What do you call it, Solution there. Between those two conflicting accounts, allegations that someone accessed Daniel's apartment and computer after he disappeared, combined with the absence of a named suspect continue to fuel speculation that another person may have been involved.

Even though the police state that digital forensics show no sign of foul play. And then more than three years after Daniel was last seen, we basically all we have as the central facts of the case are that he left his remote work site cra. His crashed vehicle was found nearly a month later with his belongings inside, but no sign of him. Extensive searches and investigations have yet to determine what happened to him or where he is. But if anybody has. Has any information, you are urged to call 623-349-6411. That is the Buckeye Police Department in Arizona. They said we'll take anything, any sightings, any leads that are out there. And that is the story of Daniel Robinson.

[Em]

I also. I don't know if this is important. I don't know if I'm, like, saying something that doesn't matter here, but you did say it was in 2021. It was within the year of George Floyd.

[Christine]

Oh, interesting.

[Em]

And is, you know, the person that's missing being black. I don't know if just because there was a rise in racial injustice and racial violence, I don't know if that it contributes at all, but it. It does.

It just. I just am putting that out there, too, as just an added note of, like, yeah, maybe there was something going on there. I don't know if Buckeye, Arizona is particularly redder or blue or whatever, but.

[Christine]

I don't know, to be honest with you. And when you look at.

The. When I. It's hard to say, right, Because I look at it and think, like.

You want to be. I don't know the right way to say it. You. You want to side with the family and say, like, yeah, this is not fair. Like, they need to look into more of this. And then part of it. Jeremy looks at this Young man. He's about 24 years old, which is the age that a lot of mental illnesses present in young men. And you think, like, okay, that's when bipolar, schizophrenia, these things often emerge. He's moved away. He was rejected. He clearly was having intense feelings one way or another, was turned down, was.

Clearly going through it to some extent.

I don't know. Like, part of me just thinks, well, it seems. And his friends and family said he was acting a little down or different.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

I am saying weird things. It just. I struggle to convince myself it's anything but kind of mental health. The tragedy of mental health or. Or some sort of head injury. But, like, I don't want to dismiss the family by saying, oh, I know better, because I don't. You know.

[Em]

Right. I am right there with you. And also, like, we don't know, maybe he. And this is. Is also not to diss the family at all, but maybe this was a family who, like, didn't believe in mental health issues. Like, and so maybe they're just, like, really digging their heels.

[Christine]

They don't want to consider that. Right.

[Em]

Yeah. But I mean, it does sound like he was having a bit of, like, a manic or psychotic episode in some way of. I don't. I don't know what the right word is. I. I don't know which. I don't want to try to diagnose him, but it sounds. It sounds like he was out of his mind a little bit and just kind of acting erratically. And I think the. If our theory is accurate and it's a mental health thing, I think the most impressive thing is how he was able to get so far away and so hidden by the time people were looking for him. But I would imagine, yeah, the car just kind of toppled over. It was glitching in some way. Or even if he tried turning it on, maybe he was kind of in and out of consciousness trying to get the car started and couldn't. Or.

[Christine]

And then you think, like, if you're out in the heat. Heat. If your car won't start, you get heat stroke.

[Em]

Yeah. You're delusional.

[Christine]

Hit your head. Yeah. I mean, I don't know. And again, like, this is a lot of ifs. Right. Like, if you were in this scenario and if this happened. But then if you think about it, like, the foul play is a lot of ifs, too. Like, if somebody had it out for you and if they planted your car, it just feels like all these scenarios don't totally add up.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

It's just Hard to say.

[Em]

And if it was a they, if it was foul play, I mean, they did a great job covering it up because it does seem more like it would be a mental health situation, especially maybe one thing if this was like he drove into the city, but it's like he drove into a very isolated area.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

Like unless there was.

A random desert person who happened to want to hurt somebody in that exact moment and knew just how to do it and get away with it.

[Christine]

Or that's the other thing. Yeah.

[Em]

Or maybe he drove, drove to a completely different distance and then the guy drove the car back. But that would require somebody then either having a second car to drive away from the scene after they've planted the car there, or walking by foot out of there, which.

[Christine]

Yeah. All these series add so many more like strings that would have to be attached to make it plausible.

I really think, like, unless they find his remains that it's going to be. Be pretty unclear, you know.

[Em]

I agree.

[Christine]

Yeah. It's really sad. But that is the. As the case. So young too. Really, really sad. So I just hope they get some answers. Right. One way or another. Yeah, eventually. So. But we've seen, we've seen much less likely cases get solved. So let's hope.

[Em]

Okay. Yeah, I hope so. So I think we're, I think our theories are just about the same. Yeah.

[Christine]

That's where I end up. You know, it's like I want to say, oh yeah, there's some big cover up, but it's like, it's just hard to kind of get there.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Mentally for me with the steps.

I don't know, man, it's pretty rough. But.

Arizona got a shout out today, huh?

[Em]

I know. Big time.

[Christine]

Big time.

[Em]

Well, thanks for your story, Christine.

[Christine]

You're welcome. Sorry for bumming you out, everyone.

While I was researching this, I've stumbled across several other terrible desert stories of people ending up in the desert without water. And have you ever heard of the Death Valley Germans? It's like this German tourist family. It's so sad. It's just horrible. They wanted to go see Yosemite and like got. They think the car got trapped and these two little kids were with their parents and they tried to walk and it took like 10 years to find their remains. It's just horrible. I mean, it's like. And people make really good point on, really good points on Reddit too of like people who live in the area are like, people underestimate how, how scary and how, how scary it is and like how quickly you can be Incapacitated just by heat, by dehydration. Snakes. I mean, at night especially, like, it's just a dangerous place.

[Em]

I mean, honestly, a snake is not a bad theory with that guy too. I mean, like, if the snake would just eat him whole and go away and digest him and that's how nobody.

[Christine]

Would have found him. I think it meant that they eat them. I think it just meant that they like fight them.

[Em]

I know, but I'm. I was like, oh, if we were to. If we were to wildly exacerbate a.

[Christine]

Theory here, aren't they like in the jungle or am I. I don't know.

[Em]

How big snakes get in the theory in the desert, but. But to add to your point, nobody knows how scary the desert is. There could be an animal carried them.

[Christine]

Away and eating snake in there, I guess. Yeah, I think rattlers, but I see. In which case you'd probably find his remains.

[Em]

Like, I just looked really stupid happen.

[Christine]

But I didn't eat him. But maybe, but something could have eaten.

[Em]

Him and carried him away. That is a theory we haven't discussed.

[Christine]

Yeah, that's true. But I feel like usually with animal, animal attacks, you'd find at least bone. Like some bones.

[Em]

Yeah, you're right. You're right.

[Christine]

You know.

But like, maybe. I mean, again, it's such a. I feel like people underestimate just how broad a swath of land, just a portion of desert can be and.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Rocks and ravines and if he went somewhere to find shade. Right. And then like stayed there and passed away, you know, there's so many possibilities.

[Em]

I absolutely underestimate how scary a desert is. I've.

[Christine]

I don't know, you think that there are like man eating snakes out there, so I think you're just right on target.

[Em]

I'm. I'm trying, but I'm, I'm aiming the wrong way. I think like I.

[Christine]

That's probably. Yeah. Let's stay. Stay put where you are in la.

We should maybe not be going to. Out to the desert anytime soon either. Either of us.

[Em]

No. Well, yeah. All right, well, it sounds like you have other desert stories you're looking at, so I'll.

[Christine]

Unfortunately I do and they're really scary. They really scare me. They're like really freaky to me.

[Em]

I'll get ready for more of those then.

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah, good. Yeah. Brace yourself, you know.

[Em]

All right, well, thank you everybody. We will see you next week for more and more.

[Christine]

Question mark why we drink.

[Em]

And Doug, here we have the limu emu in its natural habitat, helping people customize their car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual.

[Christine]

Fascinating.

[Em]

It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug Limu. Is that guy with the binoculars watching us? Cut the camera. They see us. Only pay for watching. What you need@liberty mutual.com.

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[Christine]

And other Microsoft 365 apps you use, helping you quickly write, analyze, create, and summarize so you can cut through clutter.

[Em]

And clear a path to your best work. Learn [e-mail] M365 copilot.