E480 Clown Bags and Accidental Witchcraft

Summary

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Podcast Summary: And That's Why We Drink

Episode E480: Clown Bags and Accidental Witchcraft
Release Date: April 26, 2026
Hosts: Christine Schiefer & Em Schulz

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Overview

In this episode, Christine and Em bring their signature blend of dark humor, banter, and paranormal-meets-true crime storytelling. The show kicks off with conversations about astrology, personal vibes, and life transitions, moves onto a chillingly haunted jail-turned-museum in Michigan, and then delves deep into one of South Dakota’s earliest and most unsettling domestic crime stories. The duo also touch on personal milestones, book tour tales, quirky anecdotes, and the comforts of witchy rituals.

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Episode Highlights & Key Discussions

1. Astrology, Energy, & Feeling "Off"

Timestamps: 02:29 – 12:00

• Em and Christine discuss the current astrological climate, specifically Uranus moving into Gemini, and theorize about historic disruptions and chaos during these planetary alignments.

  • Em notes: “Do you know what happened the last... okay, listen to this. 84 years ago when Uranus moved into Gemini—World War II. 84 before that—Civil War.” (04:10)
  • Christine: "So it's chaos meeting chaos." (06:24)

• Both hosts express a sense of anticipatory anxiety, describing feelings of busyness without plans, mental clutter, and a collective vibe of unrest.

• Notable quote:

  • Christine: “I don’t know why, but I feel like things are about to get really busy, but I don’t have anything planned.” (09:15)

• They shout out astrologer Elisa Kelly and her new show Astrola Tea. Christine shares her enthusiasm for ethical manifestation and coven life with Lisa’s community. Strong witchy energy all around.

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2. Life Lately: Learning & Community

Timestamps: 12:10 – 15:29

• Em reflects on progressing to a new ASL (American Sign Language) class, feelings of nervous excitement, and bittersweetness about leaving behind classmates.
  • “I’m also... upset because this’ll be the first time I’m taking a class without people I know.” (12:59)
• Christine talks about taking an online watercolor class, the satisfaction of analog hobbies, and shares how practicing with classmates and community (even at the dog park!) makes all the difference.

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3. Paranormal Story: Allegan County Sheriff's House and Old Jail Museum (Michigan)

Timestamps: 19:03 – 55:08

a) Historical Deep-Dive

• Located in Allegan, Michigan, the Old Jail Museum is a former sheriff’s house and jail turned historical society.

  • Built in 1906, right across from the (now-gone) courthouse.

  • Quirky architectural note: The sheriff and family were required to live in the jail, with the wife customarily cooking for inmates.

    • “Imagine being the wife of the sheriff… you now have to live in jail and do all the cooking and cleaning for everyone.” (25:51)

  • The jail had “advanced” amenities for the era—hot water and electric lighting—which made it a local marvel.

  • One solitary confinement cell doubled as a “hot box," a punishing sauna connected to the furnace.

    • Em: “One of the solitary confinement cells is connected to the furnace and was known as the hot box…a ‘punishing sauna.’” (30:23)

  • Jail populations swelled over time, mainly due to petty crime (debt, living out of wedlock, drunkenness).

b) Transition to Historical Society & Museum

• Became a museum in 1963, mixing exhibits about the jail, the sheriff’s house, and 10,000+ artifacts from county history.
  • Some jail cells recreated as vignettes—a 1900s barbershop, dentist’s office, etc., creating both educational and eerie vibes.

c) Paranormal Activity

• Hauntings: Five deaths documented (unclear causes: inmates, sheriffs, or family).

• Spirits witnessed:

  • A woman seen working in the kitchen/dining room, thought to be Elsie Runkle, sheriff’s wife. Her original stove is still there.

    • “She would cook, on average, 24,000 meals a year.” (44:06)

  • Child-sized mannequin sets off activity: heard running, changes clothes by itself, sometimes found locked in a closet.

    • “When they’ve looked at the mannequin then gone downstairs and came back, the mannequin is wearing different clothes.” (46:13)
    • Paranormal investigator Kathy Conder found it locked in a closet with a chair wedging the door shut. (47:19)

  • Little girl ghost: playful, mischievous, pulling on visitors’ clothes, playing with dolls in the antique collection.

    • “She is known to follow people around… very mischievous, running around and pulling on clothing.” (51:51)
    • Origin may trace to a lock of hair and note found in a donated Bible: “Dear little so-and-so, a flower from her grave.” (52:19)
    • Her name is regularly guessed by investigators via EVP or direct encounters.

• General activity: Cold hands grabbing guests, hearing voices, batteries dying, faintness, mannequins behaving oddly, objects moving, and EVPs galore—often in broad daylight.

  • “Kathy literally said the sun really doesn’t keep paranormal activity quiet.” (49:43)

• Host reactions:

  • Christine, on the mannequin: “No, this is like Robert the Doll. I don’t like it.” (46:16)
  • Both express a blend of amusement and horror—classic "And That's Why" tone.

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4. True Crime Story: The Lacy Murders (Sioux Falls, South Dakota, 1893)

Timestamps: 61:57 – 101:50

a) Scene Setting

• Early statehood days in Dakota; Sioux Falls booming, but still wild west territory.
• 7-year-old Sumner Lacy walks to the neighbor’s house and says one of the chillingest lines in true crime:
  • “‘They’re all dead, sir.’” (70:06)

b) The Crime

• Harry Lacy, burdened by debt and marital discord, murders his wife (Clara), mother-in-law (Lydia Bunker), then himself. His children, Sumner (7) and Lydia (3.5), witness the murders.

• Motive: Harry had mishandled Lydia’s large financial contribution, refused to return it, felt pressure and resentment.

• He bizarrely tried to “settle up” around town, paying outstanding bills with items or promises rather than cash, signaling premeditation.

  • “He tried to give the restaurant owner his coat… And the restaurant owner was like, I don’t want this.” (83:14)

• The local newspaper from 1893, in florid period prose, recounts the crime in detail.

  • Harry insisted on collateralizing debts, offered articles on irrigation instead of cash, acting erratic.

c) Hosts' Reflections

• Em and Christine discuss themes of toxic masculinity, repeating generational violence, and the eerie resonance of “everything never really changes.”

• They highlight the oddities of crime reporting in that era, the trauma inflicted on children, and the darkness of this early domestic crime.

• Notable exchange:

  • Christine: “The calmness is like—it’s fucking eerie, dude.” (86:02)
  • Em: “The eeriness is just like a full conscious decision and being calm with it. Like the stillness…” (86:17)

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5. Fun Moments, Book Talk, and Witchy Closer

Timestamps: 61:33, 65:01, 109:47

• Hosts share fun, slightly awkward experiences of being recognized as bestselling authors in public.

  • Em: "I want to say it so bad... but I'm not going to say it."
  • Discussion about impostor syndrome, owning your accomplishments, and hoping their kids grow up empowered by their models.

• Christine describes using witchy rituals to help her daughter Leona with nighttime anxieties—normalizing ‘accidental witchcraft.’

  • Christine: “Now we use a little potion, a little cleansing spray in the room every night... I'm not so subtly getting her into the witchiness.” (109:47)

• Listeners challenged to be proud, drink water, and take their vitamins. Some ASL and watercolor class show-and-tell promised for future episodes.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Clown bag pressing war buttons out. That’s a great image.” – Christine, on current world absurdities (11:25)
• “Imagine being the wife of the sheriff… It’s sort of like the first lady, but like, the worst sort of version.” – Christine (26:10)
• “Sometimes I’m brought back to seven years old and it’s the funniest thing in the world.” – Em, on potty humor and jail cell conditions (23:49)
• “If there are spirits of inmates, they stay in the jail cell area. I wonder if they do still think they’re locked in there. Nothing up front has sounded scary at all…” – Em, considering ghostly boundaries (55:24)
• “I. I don’t know. I feel like… I don’t know why, but I feel like things are about to get really busy. But I don’t have anything Planned.” – Christine (09:15)
• “‘They’re all dead, sir.’” – Sumner Lacy, age 7 (70:06)

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Topic Timestamps

• [02:29] – Catching up, astrology, and “feeling off”
• [12:10] – Life skills: ASL and watercolor adventures
• [19:03] – Haunted Allegan County Jail Museum: history and ghosts
  • [44:06] – Elsie Runkle and making 24,000 meals a year (!)
  • [46:13] – Haunted mannequin and little girl ghost
  • [51:51] – Mischievous child ghost, origin story
• [61:57] – Lacy Family Murders: South Dakota’s dark history
  • [70:06] – “They’re all dead, sir.”
  • [83:14] – Harry’s bizarre attempts to settle debts
  • [90:00] – Reading the original 1890s newspaper account
• [101:50] – Reflections, book stories, witchy parenting, and wrap-up

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Tone & Style

• Humorous, candid, and darkly reflective. Hosts weave in personal anecdotes, self-deprecation, and genuine empathy for victims (human and ghostly alike), all while maintaining their trademark irreverence.
• Discussions naturally blend historical detail, social commentary, and playful asides—creating an episode that’s engaging for both diehard fans and new listeners.

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Takeaways for Listeners

• Historic hauntings can be both educational and genuinely spooky—especially if child ghosts and haunted mannequins are involved.
• True crime, especially of the domestic violence variety, often echoes across centuries, raising questions about toxic cycles and the need for progress.
• Astrology and the current collective “vibe” are real to Em and Christine—at least as much as any haunted jail.
• It’s okay to own your own success…sometimes it’s even magical.
• For Leona and the rest of us, a little accidental witchcraft never hurts.

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Next episode tease:
Show-and-tell segment featuring ASL and watercolor skills.
Drink water, take your vitamins, and cleanse your room—just in case.
✨ And that's why we drink. ✨

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Transcript

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

Well, well, well. Who could it be?

[A]

What the cat dragged in?

[B]

You know, I said that recently to somebody and I think they were too young to understand the reference. And they were like, what are you talking about?

[A]

What do you mean, the reference? Isn't it just a saying?

[B]

Well, just like. I don't think they'd ever heard the saying before.

[A]

Or is it like, oh, no, he was 12. Oh. I was like, is it uncool now? I mean, I. I guess, but certainly

[B]

to a 12 year old.

[A]

They were like.

[B]

He was like, what the hell are you saying? And I. He's this kid that's always at the dog park. And so when I saw him, I went, oh, look who the cat dragged in. And he was like, we're at a dog park.

[A]

What are you. You're not. That's that weird grownup over there. Probably what he said.

[B]

We have a weird. We have a weird bond. It's odd. At the dog park. I feel like it's just. Age doesn't matter. Everyone's just. You see each other enough. Yeah.

[A]

Anyway, you're just kind of. Kind of all humans, you know?

[B]

Mm. Yeah, it was. It's very Utopian, I suppose. Except you're at a dog park and it just smells like kind of poop all the time.

[A]

And people say weird idioms like, look what the cat dragged in.

[B]

I know. How are you?

[A]

Oh, I'm still wearing my pajamas. I realized just now from yesterday, so. Oops, I just went to Sleepy Hollow.

[B]

Speaking of your Sleepy Hollow shirt that

[A]

you're wearing, I just realized it's also Sleepy Hollow and it's my pajamas.

[B]

Oh, that's. Is that why you got that? That's smart.

[A]

It's not. And it wasn't until this moment. Now it is now. Retroactively, it is now it has to be PJs. Now it has to be PJs. And I'm going to tell you, I'm drinking my big B's. Big B mocha. So that's what I'm drinking. And I drink because. I don't know, man, I'm just trying to survive. Like, Uranus moves into Gemini on Saturday and things are about to get crazy. Do you know what happened the last. Okay, listen to this. 84. 84 years ago, okay? When Uranus moved into Gemini. 84 years ago, World War II. When Uranus moved into Gemini.84 years before that Civil War. Oh, Gemini. You certainly couldn't be a third one, right?

[B]

Hey, stop talking.

[A]

Called Revolutionary War. This is the 250th anniversary of the United States. And as my new friend Elisa Kelly, who was on our show, and I'm now, like a fan girl of. And I'm so embarrassed that our relationship began with me mispronouncing, pronouncing her name and you having to correct me. She said on her podcast, Google Real Quick. And I'd like you to try this experiment. M. Google Real Quick. How long until an empire falls? Just Google that.

[B]

Isn't it every 250 years?

[A]

It sure is. It comes right up there. It's like, that's just kind of how history goes, you know?

[B]

And so happy 250th to us. Big deal.

[A]

That's right. That's right. We got Revolutionary War, Civil War. I mean, just like, kind of a big deal. World War II.

[B]

Do you think people. I mean, there's no way to know this. Do you think people who. Let's say at the era of right before World War II or right before, do you think they also all knew this was kind of coming? Like, because everything you said to me doesn't totally shock me that, like, something horrid might happen.

[A]

You're probably right, because World War II, obviously, we didn't enter until, you know, into the. Until the war had begun. Right. And so it's like, sure, there was an act, but, like, we're already at war, so it's like, what could it mean? And, you know, she made a good point, too. Like, it doesn't necessarily mean, like, physical. Like, we're all at, like, at a Civil war, literally on. I mean, it could, but hopefully not. But, you know, like, insurrection or, like, righting wrongs and, like, kind of rebelling against the system, overthrowing the system. Like, that kind of energy is what happens when Uranus, which is the planet of disruption, enters Gemini, which is maybe the sign of disruption as far as you and I are concerned, at least.

[B]

So it's chaos meeting chaos.

[A]

Yeah. And it's like, really? It just turns shit upside down. And, like, it doesn't necessarily have a plan. It just kind of like the energy goes where it needs to go. And I think we all see where the energy is going. And, yeah, things are about to get whack on Saturday. That is happening. And I think we can all kind of feel that intensity. And I think it happens also on a personal level, too. So just, you know, good, good, good. As Geminis, you know, we're gonna have a lot of, like, as Geminis.

[B]

Does it mean that we are safer from this? Or we're more.

[A]

We're the most affected. But it's not necessarily a bad thing. It's more like we'll be the most affected the next several years. Until it changes into cancer. Until it moves into cancer. 2018 was the last time was when it entered Taurus, and now it's entering. So basically, what has happened since 2018 to now, whatever Taurus is in your chart, that's been kind of topsy turvy by Uranus, and now it's moving to Gemini. So because that's our sun sign, it's gonna kind of, like, shine a light on a lot of things and, like, activate a lot of things, and it's gonna be interesting.

[B]

Horrifying. Also, like, three of my placements are Gemini, so are they okay?

[A]

Interesting, Interesting. What are. You know, which ones?

[B]

Only one of them is in my big three, but then the other two are kind of, like, further out there. I don't. I don't know what that means or anything, but I remember being like, oh, my God, look at me go. Gemini.

[A]

Look at you. You're a little twin. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's pretty wild stuff. So I don't know. I mean, hopefully it just means only good, you know, change. Change is needed, clearly.

[B]

What? Is that why you're drinking?

[A]

I think that is why I'm drinking. Yeah. I love that. For me, I'm, like, super into astrology right now, and I think it's just like, I'm love. Oh, she has a new show, by the way. It's called Astrola Tea with Elisa Kelly. And every. Every week, she spills the tea, and it's. It's on its, like, second week, and it's, like, kicking butt, and it's doing really awesome. It's independent. She, like, moved away from the network she was on and started her own ip, and it's really awesome. So go check it out. I told her I would mention it at some point, and then I kept forgetting. So this is a perfect time. But I'm also in here a little coven. Like, she has a coven online where people. We do, like, manifestation, like, money manifestations that are also, like, ethical, which is kind of cool. And she talks about the ethics of that, and she's just really cool lady. So. Yeah, check out her show.

[B]

Nice.

[A]

Well, why do you drink, my Gemini friend?

[B]

I don't know. I don't know. This time around.

[A]

Oh, he's like, I know. I know all that.

[B]

To run and lie down. That made no sense at all. Why do I drink? I don't know. I feel like. I don't know why, but I feel like things are about to get really busy. But I don't have anything Planned.

[A]

I don't have any plans. Yeah, Uranus is going into Gemini on Saturday.

[B]

Maybe. I can sense it.

[A]

And I feel like we can sense it. And you're psychic specifically, so you're probably, like, your spidey sins are probably going nuts.

[B]

Something's happening, but I don't know what it is because I don't have anything planned. But I've also noticed that I have not been planning things with people. There's been a few people who have reached out and been like, hey, let's get dinner. And I keep putting off scheduling it with them because I keep thinking I'm busy. But then I look at the calendar. I'm like, oh, I'm not busy at all.

[A]

Oh, weird. You're, like, holding space for something, but

[B]

I don't know what it is, because I would love to get dinner with them. But for some reason, I feel really. Maybe I'm just mentally.

[A]

Maybe mentally busy. Like, cluttered.

[B]

I do feel cluttered. I don't know why, but, yeah, I don't know. I'm feeling a little off these days. And then today's go. Allison also said she was feeling off, and I was like, oh, something's in the air.

[A]

I'm telling you, there is something in the air. And, like, I think I've been. Yeah, I've been feeling that same way of, like, disconcerting almost.

[B]

Yeah. And I don't know why. I feel like I'm on high alert, but I don't know what for.

[A]

Yes. The vigil. The hyper vigilance, I feel like, is getting wacky.

[B]

Yeah. And even when I'm resting, I feel like I'm, like, itchy to. I'm like, what's going on?

[A]

Yeah. Buzzy, almost. Yeah, I've noticed that, too. And I. I just feel like the news gets more and more absurd every day to the point, like, when I see breaking news, I'm like, oh, okay, like, the Pope is arguing with the president again. And, like, also, like. Like, Trump was supposed to say the image was doctored, but he said, I'm a doctor. I mean, you can't make this up. Like, it's so stupid that it's like, okay, I get it, world. I get it, universe. I get it, God or source or whatever. Like, this is crazy. I'm like, is it. What are we. Are we doing? What are we doing? Yeah, what's next? What's the plan? It can't sustain itself, right? Google, how long can an empire last? It can't sustain itself. Not with this clown bag, like, pressing

[B]

Clown bag war buttons. Clown bag pressing war buttons out. That's a great image. Yeah. No, I. I don't know what it is, but I'm just feeling a little weird. And I. I, like. I'm feeling like. I don't know, it feels like this should be a moment where I'm resting, but I don't. I don't feel rested at all. Even though, like, I've been sleeping a lot better lately than I have in a long time. I'm waking. I'm waking up earlier. Like, I'm, like, for fun. Like, I. Like, before this, It's. We recorded 10. I woke up at, like, 8 and cleaned the whole house. Like, what's happening? But also. But I just don't feel.

[A]

Maybe your Virgo Rising is being activated.

[B]

Yeah. Something on my to do. My astral to do list is going

[A]

off, but I need a liaison speed dial. I wish the.

[B]

Also. I'll say. One of the other reasons I drink this week is because this is my last week of this ASL class before I move on to a new one.

[A]

Oh, exciting.

[B]

When we. I don't think this was, like, intentional, but I happened to count up all the words that we've had to learn throughout this, and it was.

[A]

You just happened to.

[B]

Well, I was trying to make a study guide for myself because this week coming up is our. Our. Not a test, but it's where we're expected to, like, be speaking kind of.

[A]

And you're a Virgo Rising, so you made a. Yep.

[B]

So I made a study guide, which. And we have learned 800 words.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Which is crazy.

[A]

That's a lot.

[B]

Yeah. And then the very next week, I'm starting my next class at a different school with different people, so I'm very nervous.

[A]

God, you're going to a new school. I'm starting at a new school.

[B]

I'm going to a new. And I'm also. I'm upset because this will be the first time I'm taking the class without people I know, because all my friends join this one with me. But now that I'm going to another school, I have to leave all my friends behind.

[A]

Wait, why are you. Are you, like, a accelerating. Why are they not going with you?

[B]

Just because it's. This. Is this the end of the class? But I just.

[A]

They're doing, like, moving on and you're doing it okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I felt like they were, like, being held in remedial class, and I was

[B]

like, geez, I know the. The school that I do it at, which is very lovely. It's in Burbank and it's. It's literally. I mean, I'm already. I'm going to be gone now. It's called the Burbank Adult School, but it's literally a school where you can like take a bunch of different courses.

[A]

So neat.

[B]

And so it's just for adults, but it's literally. It looks like a high school. It's very weird, like walking the halls with other adults. It feels like you're in high school.

[A]

You're like cosplaying high school.

[B]

It feels like I'm cosplaying high school. But it's very nice. They have a lot of different categories of classes, but I've been trying to do like a bunch of enrichment classes. Like they also have guitar class there and stuff. So it's. It's been a lot of fun. But I have. They don't have any more ASL classes after this, so I have to go to another school. So now I'm, I'm. I've. I'm joining pcc.

[A]

What's that?

[B]

Pasadena.

[A]

Pasadena? Oh my God.

[B]

How.

[A]

Isn't that where Al took woodworking?

[B]

Yeah, we're. We're both, you know, students of pcc.

[A]

Oh my God, I love that. Do you. Oh my gosh, this is so exciting. Do you get a student id?

[B]

I don't know. I haven't looked yet. I. Because I only registered last night, so.

[A]

Oh my gosh, this is so exciting. I mean, I'm taking a watercolor class, but it's online, which is more my speed, I think. I just, I just that I love an in person sometimes. Like, I think that might be my next step.

[B]

In person has been so much more helpful. Cause I know if I were doing

[A]

it online, it's hard to keep. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

I would just pause it or mute it or go to the bathroom and watercolor.

[A]

It's sort of like I'm weirdly fixated on it right now. So I'm doing it every single day and it's like, if I weren't that interested, the online class would not work. But.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. No, but also like that seems more peaceful. Like.

[A]

It is. Yes. And it's also very like offline, like analog of thing. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

With ASL there. There's someone in my class that goes to the dog park. So we've also been practicing together, which is nice. Like it's. I think it's been nice to do it in 12 year old. No, it's not the 12 year old. Imagine if I Signed to him. Look what the cat dragged again

[A]

here, I bet. Wait, what's cat? It's probably Whiskers.

[B]

Cat is Whiskers.

[A]

Oh, my God. Yeah, Whiskers. Like, look, is this. Look. Yeah, I'm just, like, making shit up. Look what the cat.

[B]

I don't know what dragged in is.

[A]

I do.

[B]

I know. In. I don't know drag. I don't, I don't. I will ask my teacher on the last day. What is dragged mean?

[A]

Yeah, I've grown up. If a grown up said that to me in public, outside, I would be like, mom, help. So, yeah, I get it.

[B]

Him and, him and Hank have gotten along in the past. But, yeah, I, I. Anyway, anyway, I'm done talking. That's why I drank.

[A]

That's why I drink.

[B]

Yeah. Anyway, I have a story for you today.

[A]

Anyway.

[B]

I don't know why I can't just transition smoothly into anything else.

[A]

Because I won't let you. Leona, as I've said before, is such a picky eater. And, you know, we're working with it. We're trying to work with her on that. And it's, it is its own thing. We're. We're navigating it just fine. However, I do worry often that she might be missing out on some nutrients that she's simply not eating. The moment she decides something's not for her, like, of course it's going to be tough to go back. Okay. Most parents are not aware that 50% of kids suffer from hidden hunger, which comes from picky eating, processed snacks, a lack of the vegetables and fruit we eat just don't have enough nutrients sometimes. So if that's your situation, it's certainly mine. First day daily multivitamins. This is so lame. I get emotional when I talk about it because every morning Leona wakes me up and goes and gets mommy vitamins. And because they sent one for me and one for Leona. And it's like, become this routine, this tradition. I've never been so on top of my daily vitamins, and I'm like, wow, we're so healthy together.

[B]

I mean, they're pretty wonderful. They're clinically absorbable, family safe, actually effective, and for a limited time only, our listeners are getting an insane deal. Use Code Drink to get up to 57% off and a free gift with code drinkersday.com after you purchase, they will ask you where you heard about them. So please support our show and tell them that our show sent you. So I was just on a trip with my mom, and we Were talking about, you know, what we do for fun and what we do on our phone. And we were comparing our apps, and, you know, she on her own said, oh, I've been using this. This one thing called Rocket Money. Have you heard about that? And I went, well, you just told on yourself that you don't listen to the podcast.

[A]

She might have had too much secondhand anxiety hearing you talk about financial woes.

[B]

But then I found out that she also had them, because, let's just say the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. She was all of a sudden, like, I had no idea that I was signed up for this thing. I had no idea I was signed up for this thing. And with Rocket Money, now it's all. It's all handled.

[A]

Oh, I just found out I had a bunch of annual subscriptions, so they weren't coming up. And then Rocket Money was like, hey, babe, like, you just paid another hundred some bucks for this. And I went. And so thankfully, they were able to cancel it for me. It is a game changer, guys. If Linda's on it, we should all be on it.

[B]

Rocket Money, in case you don't know, for some reason at this point, if you're like my mom and you skip through our ads or something, Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings. It is truly a game changer. Two generations in this family can agree on that. It's wonderful.

[A]

Let Rocket Money help you reach your financial goals faster. [e-mail] Drink that's RocketMoney.com Drink RocketMoney.com Drink

[B]

I have a story today, and it's in Michigan.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

And it is in an area called Allegan, Michigan.

[A]

Allegan.

[B]

Yep. And even better, it's called Even better.

[A]

It can't get better than that. You. You can't be serious.

[B]

It's called the Allegan County Sheriff's House and Old Jail Museum.

[A]

Okay. Loving this energy already. Loving it big time.

[B]

I really wish that they would come up with, like, a classier little name like Allegan County. Share. That's.

[A]

I kind of like how many words it is unironically, you know, it's like it doesn't really realize it's way too many words. How do you spell Allegan?

[B]

A L, L. Ham. A L, L, E, G, A N. It looks like allergy to me.

[A]

It looks like Allegheny, but without a

[B]

Y. I did hear other people say Allegan.

[A]

Allegan.

[B]

Interesting, because I Would have not said it that way.

[A]

Never heard of it.

[B]

Anyway, it is. Yeah, it's a. The sheriff's house and old jail museum. So what I mean by that is it's a museum. Now, it was once a combined sheriff's house and old jail, because now the sheriff lives in the jail.

[A]

Well, he was a jail. Now it's an old jail.

[B]

Now it's an old jail because now

[A]

there's a new jail, new jail, and now it's an old jail.

[B]

Now it's a new museum of the old jail.

[A]

That's exactly.

[B]

Old sheriff's house in old. Old. Old Allegan County. Older. Older Michigan.

[A]

Now, that's a catchy title.

[B]

I'll let them know. So this is in the historic district of Allegan. And fun fact, this sheriff's house, old jail museum is built right across from, or it was built right across from the courthouse at the time. So in 1905, a courthouse was built. They needed a jail. So right across the street a year later, they made the jail so you could just walk the people to the.

[A]

Easy peasy.

[B]

Easy peasy. Also, I imagine things had to be walkable because it was 1905, and in my mind, that means there were no cars.

[A]

So, I mean, back then, I feel like. Because I. I had done that research on Pearl Brian. I don't know why she's always on my mind, which is just.

[B]

She is.

[A]

I think about her a lot. And I'll tell her I talked to her in my head a lot. Don't worry. She knows. And when Alonzo Walling and Scott Jackson were hanged, they were hanged at the courthouse right near where I live. And it's so weird because it's still, like, an active courthouse, but then, like, the gallows out front are now just, like a beautiful garden. And it's like the jail was right there, too, you know? So everything used to just have a lot more heaviness. And now it's like, oh, this is just the courthouse in its official capacity. You know, like, the down and dirty stuff happens elsewhere.

[B]

But a lot of gardens were once gallows. And I'm like, now I can't appreciate this.

[A]

It's like, isn't this nice? It's like, I don't want to be here. Yeah, Yeah, I do. I'm like, let me sit in it.

[B]

So the courthouse was built in 1905. Across the street in 1906, this jail was built again. The law at the time when jails were being built was that the sheriff or the warden or whoever had to live in the jail with an inmate. What a perk of the.

[A]

I know. That feels like such a weird, like, punishment or like, law. I don't know.

[B]

Imagine getting married to someone, you're like, oh, my God, he's such a great catch. He does live in jail. He's not an inmate. He lives in jail.

[A]

He's a 10, but he lives in a prison.

[B]

But all his neighbors are prisoners. So fun fact. When this jail was opened, it was considered very advanced purely because it had hot water and electric lighting.

[A]

I'll take it.

[B]

Honestly, it's 1906. I can't imagine you're really getting a lot of good things.

[A]

You just told me there were no cars, and now you're telling me this place has electricity, so. I know.

[B]

You know what? Maybe the inmates are living high and mighty compared to everyone else.

[A]

Maybe they're driving around in Porsches and you don't even understand.

[B]

That reminds me of, like, the squirrel cage jail where a lot of the locals, like, freaked out because the inmates had a bathroom, like a toilet.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

The town didn't, like, usually have toilets in, like, the residential homes.

[A]

And they were perfectly good resources.

[B]

They were mad at. The inmates were living the. The rich and famous life because they could go poopy inside. So.

[A]

Yeah, must be nice.

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah. So did you like how I said that? Go poopy.

[A]

Do you like that? You know, and it's also like, they can go poo, but, like, they have to. They have to go inside. They're kind of stuck in there. They can't go outside. Like you can fucking.

[B]

That's a great point. You can go die with.

[A]

With the great outdoors at your disposal.

[B]

Yeah, you can go poopy with a view.

[A]

You can poop you with a view anywhere you want. Go fuck yourself.

[B]

Sometimes I'm brought back to seven years old and it's the funniest thing in the world.

[A]

And then I'm like, I'll come too. Like, I just learned English at that age, so I'm still figuring it out. But poopy is one I do know at that age for sure.

[B]

You know, weird to say, but when you were the first person, I didn't know, like, what to call, like, Hank's undercarriage. And you said weenie. And now it has become the staple of the.

[A]

I said that when you said it.

[B]

At some point you said something about, like, I think when he came on for the first time and he started. And so you actually named it. And so now, because I was like,

[A]

what do I call that. What an honor.

[B]

Anyway, now I've discussed poopy and weenie,

[A]

so there's so many worse things it could be. So I'll. I'll take the win.

[B]

I, I. Yeah, I don't know what. I don't know why I even said that, especially publicly on air for everyone,

[A]

but I clearly don't remember one minute of it.

[B]

If you needed a. A fun fact about yourself, you didn't

[A]

know you needed a little. Yeah, a little ego boost. Thanks.

[B]

Yeah. Okay. How did we get here? Oh, hot water.

[A]

What was it? Oh, hot water.

[B]

I feel like I'm in hot water for even talking about weeds pooping inside, pooping outside. So enough bathroom talk. Don't be disgusting.

[A]

Christine, I'm so sorry. I can't get my head out of that sewer.

[B]

So when it first opened, it was very advanced because I had hot water and electric lighting. And the sheriff's quarters were in the front of the building. Makes sense that that would be where you first go before you imagine having to walk through the jail to get to your house.

[A]

Yeah, that'd be like, you're like, oh, welcome back to my place.

[B]

Imagine being like, oh, everyone, come back to my place. We do have to walk through the jail cells.

[A]

Yeah. Let's practice for the school play in my room. Oh, God, slime.

[B]

But first we have to walk through.

[A]

Let's go watch skibidi toilet.

[B]

Okay, I'm back to my notes. Is everyone ready?

[A]

I wish I would stop getting so distracted.

[B]

Me too. I told you it's a weird day. Okay, so the front of the house is the sheriff's quarters where his whole family would live. And then, by the way, imagine being the wife of the sheriff. And not only do you now have to live in jail, but also it was customary at the time that the sheriff's wife was the one who, like, cooked and cleaned.

[A]

Yeah. Like, had a managerial role in the home, in the jail.

[B]

Like, what a bad gig. You must really love this, man.

[A]

Yeah, it's sort of like the first lady, but, like, the worst sort of version. Yeah.

[B]

And, like, that's the last big job. You don't even get to leave to go see friends. Like, you're expected there all the time. You have to cook that many meals.

[A]

Yeah. And it's probably gruel.

[B]

It has to be just the upkeep of it.

[A]

Yeah, there's no way that's. That's just unpleasant.

[B]

And by the way, I'm sure she gets paid $0 for this.

[A]

Oh, right. Well, it's her duty.

[B]

Oh, yes.

[A]

Sorry, duty. I need to please sharpen my vocabulary.

[B]

In the sheriff's quarters were apparently multiple parlors. So I guess he was actually living not in a. A that bad kind of a way. He had multiple bedrooms, he had a kitchen, he had a dining room. And then also this was just noted and like, really not a big deal, but it sparked interest in me is that he also had a keeping room, which I had not heard of. Do you know what a keeping room is?

[A]

I feel like I've heard that, but I don't know.

[B]

Apparently it's very common in like, colonial houses. Essentially they're just like small rooms off of the kitchen, which I thought like, oh, like a pantry.

[A]

Like a.

[B]

But apparently it's more like a. It's kind of like a family room, but attached to the kitchen.

[A]

Like a mud room? No.

[B]

Maybe the purpose of it. It's like the size of a mud room, it sounds like. But the purpose of it was to like, keep family warm. Back when, like, houses would only have one fireplace, I guess the fireplace would be in there and it would kind of keep you warm, which is how we got keeping. But it would keep you warm and you were close enough to the kitchen that you could still like, keep the people who are cooking, like either the hosts if you were a guest in the house, or your parents, they would be cooking and you could keep them company while also staying warm but staying out of their way in the kitchen.

[A]

I love whatever the hell that is. That's hilarious. I want to know the reason behind why such a thing was needed. Like, I have kids are underfoot. Like, I. I don't know.

[B]

I don't totally understand it. I tried looking at a few different, like, sources about it, and then the. The company that gave me the. The best information was Southern living about like, how coming back.

[A]

Oh, they're coming back. Oh, wow. It sounds like a panic room when it's too cold out.

[B]

I don't understand. I think my understanding if I moved into a house and it had a keeping room, it's apparently much more common these days that it becomes like a little room where like you can be in the kitchen but also keep an eye on your kid when they're doing homework.

[A]

Oh. So it's sort of like what the, like the modern day equivalent of like, oh, you have like a little kitchen table and you sit at the k. The kitchen table and like, talk to your parents while they make breakfast or like, do your homework. Okay. So it's sort of like that, like, ancillary space that's not like a dining room.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Okay, that does make sense. I understand that.

[B]

It's like a little sitting space where you're in the kitchen but not in the kitchen.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. That makes sense.

[B]

A lot of people also keep, like, supplies in there. Or, like you said, like, a desk to write. I mean, I'm taking this straight out of southern living.

[A]

You're like. Like you said. And I'm like. And then you say, I took that straight out of southern living. I was like.

[B]

You were saying, like. I remember you were saying it just.

[A]

It was probably pretty smart, though. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. It was really. Actually the smartest thing you've ever said.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

So they had a keeping room fun fact along with their parlors and whatnot in the jail in the back by ending up. Or what? So. So by going through the front half. Half of the house, you're in the sheriff's rooms, and then when you get to the back, there are three floors of cells, including solitary confinement. So it shifts really quickly, clearly. If, like. I wonder what the entrance into the jail looks like. Like, is there, like, a middle room, like a mud room between them?

[A]

Or, like, sleeping room?

[B]

I. I would hope that there's something to, like, make sure that it's all locked up tight so when you go to bed, they can't just waltz in, you know?

[A]

Yeah. Feels like they're making it very clear, the delineation between the. This guy and the prisoners. Like, I think they're making the delineation very clear. So you're right. They're mu. There's probably some sort of buffer, but

[B]

it goes from carpet to linoleum. Totally concrete, you know?

[A]

Yeah. There's no way that there's not like, a middle. Middle zone.

[B]

There's got to be. So one of the solitary confinement cells. This, like, this got mentioned in only one source, and I was like, why are we not talking about this everywhere else? One of the solitary confinement cells is connected to the furnace and was known as the hot box. Ah. Because it was a, quote, punishing sauna.

[A]

Ah.

[B]

The only place I've seen this is on cat dog, and they ended up in, like, an outhouse that they got Cat dog.

[A]

Wait, oh, I thought you meant that was, like, the source where you got that information.

[B]

No. Well, the first time I ever saw that was in an episode of Catdog where they, like, get, like, their. I mean, it says punishing sauna, but it was like, you're. You're sentenced to sweat, basically.

[A]

I hate that. And that show used to scare me A little bit.

[B]

I loved Cat Dog.

[A]

I did, too.

[B]

I hated that episode, though. I still think about it.

[A]

No, I think that, like, some sensory stuff from that show really stuck with me.

[B]

Like being sewn to a cat.

[A]

There's that one for sure.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

For sure. For sure.

[B]

The top two floors are just for the main population, but the basement cells were where, I guess hardened criminals or more violent criminals went. I'm assuming that's also where the hop axe was. I can't imagine. That just sounds so terrible, which I guess is the point.

[A]

But there I. I hate also that it, like, kind of seemingly happened by accident. Like, they built the solitary confinement, and one just happened to be by the furnace. And they were, like, perfect. Like, ugh.

[B]

That sounds just so bad. The. So the top two floors, main population. When I say the. The basement had more, like, violent criminals. I don't know if violence the right word, but just more people who've committed more major crimes, I guess, because most of the inmates at this jail were petty criminals.

[A]

Okay. Okay.

[B]

Which I guess is. That's. If I were a sheriff and I had to live in a jail, I would sign up for the one where I'm living with the petty criminals and not, like violent criminals. And I. There. There's a door between us. Yeah, agree, you know?

[A]

Agreed. Like, maybe larceny, not like murder.

[B]

Like, and. And this was 1906. So some of the petty criminals were, like, insanely petty. Like, insanely not even a crime.

[A]

You're an orphan. That's a crime.

[B]

Yeah. One of them was like living with somebody out of wedlock.

[A]

Right, right, right.

[B]

Like hell. I'll keep the door open between us and the job.

[A]

Now you can live in my house out of wedlock. My house is a jail.

[B]

Another one was shoplifting. One was being drunk. Criminal mischief, which is vague and mysterious, and I love it.

[A]

Love that.

[B]

Having debt. Like, I mean, these are all people that have probably been in my house. You know what I'm saying?

[A]

Yeah. You live in a. Right, right, right. Old jail. A veritable jail.

[B]

I mean, sure, I'll take it. I've invited all those people into my house before. So in 1962, which is only, I don't know, like, 56, 58 years. After only that amount of time, the jail was starting to show its age, which is interesting because they'd done renovations since. When they first started the jail, there were only spots for 60 inmates. And then by the end, it was, like, nearing, like, 200. So they clearly renovated, but it was still out of shape. I don't understand.

[A]

Maybe that was overcrowding, though.

[B]

Maybe. Like, I. I did. I did read that, like, eventually their max capacity was.

[A]

Or maybe interesting.

[B]

Or maybe it was like, okay, maybe

[A]

they, like, added an addition, but then like, the whole thing just. I don't know. Maybe. Okay, well, if you think about it, it was built in, what, 1905, and they added, like, electricity and water for that time period. Like, imagine 60 years later how much that would have to be, like, torn out and redone.

[B]

You're totally right.

[A]

I didn't even think about early electricity. You'd have to, like, some. I mean, not that I know anything

[B]

about it, but I mean, the laws absolutely should. Had to have changed at some point.

[A]

I imagine the technology alone, you'd have to really gut the whole place.

[B]

Yeah, that's a great point. I hadn't even thought about that. So for whatever reason, we. We had seen growth, but it was now at beyond max capacity and the building was getting older. So at that point they were like, well, should we just build a new jail? Which I feel like if less than six years ago you were building this thing, put a little more time into it or whatever, that's just.

[A]

I mean, I just feel like they must have not done a very good job. Like, six years is not a long time for a place to be falling apart to the point you got to make a new one. Like, what are you doing?

[B]

I agree. Maybe in 1906, they were just kind of slapsticking this thing, right?

[A]

Like, maybe they didn't think it was going to be. I feel like this always happen. Happens in those old towns where, like, it. The first jail, they were like, oh, we thought there would be one criminal in town. And it's like, girl, what?

[B]

Well, they thought only 60 people, and I guess it was.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

But also, again, because it's petty crime, it's like, well, were any of them really criminals or were you just shoving weirdos?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

At the same time, speaking of things changing, the law changed where sheriffs no longer had to live in.

[A]

Oh, thank God. In the drill, imagine being the last sheriff who had to. And you're like, what the.

[B]

Or imagine the people who've been living in the. Like, solitary confinement or the hotbox or the normal cells. And then all of a sudden, the sheriff leaves and that doubles the square footage. And now people get to live where the parlor was.

[A]

In the parlor in the. In the greeting room or waiting room or whatever the fuck.

[B]

I know they would have just put cells up, but I'm sure there Was some sort of, like. Those were at least the updated cells or the cleaner cells or the.

[A]

Yeah, I'm sure that was the renovated part of the building also. I'm so sorry. I have, like. Remember when I said these were pajamas? I realized I had a toothpaste stain on my shirt. And then those are the worst.

[B]

They look the worst.

[A]

And then when you. When you rub it and it, like, gets worse. So now everyone who's seen me kind of surreptitiously trying to get rid of it, it's now, like, bigger. I apologize. It is toothpaste, so.

[B]

Well, now everyone's gonna go back and just in the time code and just watch it slowly.

[A]

Really a lot of scratching on my shirt. I'm sorry. And I'm gonna stop touching it now. Okay, here we go.

[B]

Well, at any rate, by the 1960s, they were like, okay, new jail time. We don't want this one anymore.

[A]

Okay?

[B]

And so they. At this point, which is so funny, that early on, the reason they built the jail here was because there was a courthouse across the street, right? Now the courthouse has been demolished. And so when they needed a new jail, they just built it across the street on top of where the old courthouse was, right? So I think that's fun. I was like, oh, now the jail is where the courthouse was. And the only reason the courthouse was here and the jail was there anyway, they're like, can we not move from this street? Do they have one street in alley

[A]

maybe that they're like, it's just we own the property, you know, I guess so.

[B]

They're like, let's just keep it going. Law and order over here. So A year later, 1963 or 1964, the Allegan County Historical Society took over the jail that was sitting abandoned now across from the now new jail. And they were like, well, this is a great place for us to run our historical society from. So we're going to turn this into a museum. So it's not just a museum of the jail, although that's included, because the cells are literally fucking right.

[A]

You kind of have to.

[B]

But they're. They. I think they originally just took it on to preserve the jail, but since they were a historical society and wanted to have a place to keep all their, like, preserved documents and collections, they were like, well, we have this whole building. So it ended up turning into a jail exhibit, sheriff's home exhibit, and then also the literal 10,000 items they've collected about the county's history is also on display here.

[A]

So it's like, the whole town's museum.

[B]

Yeah, with, like, sprinkled into, like, the fact that this was a jail.

[A]

Wow. Okay.

[B]

And fun fact, since this place closed, it's also been used as, like, a filming location a few times, but they were not projects I'd heard of. So maybe I'm just bad at movie history, but I didn't write any of the projects down. Wasn't interesting to me. Sorry, everyone.

[A]

Clearly.

[B]

So the museum shows the sheriff's quarters, I think. I don't. I. I want to say, like, as it was, but I don't think that's true. I think they just kind of have left some of the rooms to look like what the quarters would have looked like. And then they use that as the area to exhibit all of their collection as a historical society.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And then the jail itself, they've restored. I don't know about restored, but they've touched up two of the. The two main floors. But in the. On the basement floor where the solitary confinement cells were, they did not touch that. So, like, all the carvings into the walls are the same.

[A]

Oh, spooky.

[B]

Including there's, like, this old scratching above one of the cell doors that says, home sweet home.

[A]

Yuck.

[B]

Agreed. So a lot of the jails. The jail cells look as they did, and they actually have one setup as what it would have looked like in 1906 when the jail opened, like, what the G cell would have looked like.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

And then they actually turned some of the other cells into, like, little sets, which I don't know how I feel about that, but it's kind of, I imagine, cool. They probably had to do it for the. The gimmick of getting people in there. They turned some of them into sets of what other areas of town would have looked like also in the early 1900s. So I'm kind of okay with it.

[A]

That's awesome.

[B]

So one of the cells is like a barber shop in 1900. Another one is an attorney's office, a dentist's office, a school room.

[A]

Such a clever idea.

[B]

I think if I were running a historical society and I wanted people to actually come see what Life looked like 100 years ago, and you have a whole building. I get why they would have been like. And the cells are individual rooms.

[A]

You know, that's really cool.

[B]

If I were the ghost, that of the jail, the inmate that lived in that one room, I'd be like, I can't even sleep in here anymore because now it's a doctor.

[A]

I'd be like, hell, yeah. Now it's now I've got a reclining dental chair in here.

[B]

True. Or maybe they're, like, at least a

[A]

change of scenery and some quilts or something.

[B]

Yeah, you've convinced me. All right. I will say the. One of the sets is like an old courtroom, I think.

[A]

Also, I think those prisoners are not, like, in the afterlife. I know sometimes they are still there, but, like, get out of there. Hopefully. Get out of there.

[B]

Hopefully the doors are at least open. They know they can walk out in the set that looks like an old courthouse, which I think. Or courtroom. I think it's supposed to look like how the original 1905 courthouse across the street look.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But this is a fun fact, and it's also a quote. In the old courtroom setup is a record book listing the verdicts and the sentences of each person convicted at the jail. Isn't that fun?

[A]

That's really interesting.

[B]

It's certainly fascinating, because then you can at least see, like, oh, this person was here because of this thing.

[A]

That's really cool.

[B]

And on top of it, the historical society keeps a lot of antiques here from the county's history. Although some of them are. Are odd.

[A]

Tell me more.

[B]

One of them is, like, a Victrola player. One of them. Some of them are, like, World War II uniforms, which I'm sure have a lot of energy to them. They're also mannequins, which immediately freaks me out. One of them. This is a quote. They have debris from an 1865 ship that sunk in the area where all the passengers died.

[A]

Oh, geez.

[B]

And then another one. This is another quote, Civil War art made with human hair. So you can see we're very quickly turning into, like. This is spooky as.

[A]

Yeah, we're getting into, like, some accidental witchcraft situations here.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And. And the.

[B]

The hair. I will say they. They think that the hair is from, like, people who the artist loved.

[A]

Right. Like, some people would make, like, dolls or things like that.

[B]

So it is very. A very witchcraft, like you said. It's not like, random hair.

[A]

Have you seen that meme that I just saw the other day? It was like, oh, you don't believe in witchcraft? Okay, give me a lock. Your hair. It's like, I'm gonna start saying that. Okay, give me, give me.

[B]

You know what? I love it.

[A]

Gimme, gimme.

[B]

So all of this. Oh, okay. I was right. All of this is in the sheriff's home area. So the front of the building, which, again, makes sense if you want people to see it immediately. Here's all the antiques. And then when you go back further into the jail. You can see all the old cells and then the exhibits in the jail cells. So during the jail 60 years, there were five deaths inside, although I did not see anywhere what those causes of death were. I'm assuming they were inmates, but they could have also been, like, the sheriff or his wife died in the house.

[A]

So.

[B]

And so that is what leads us into the ghosts. So in the front half, where the sheriff lived, people hear footsteps. Specifically in the sheriff's bedroom.

[A]

Ooh.

[B]

People also see an apparition working in the kitchen in the dining room. And apparently this apparition has also set off motion detectors. By itself. Yeah. It's thought to be a wife of the sheriff of a sheriff that was. That lived there, because, again, she was supposed to do all the cooking. For some reason, we. Not for some reason. I have a reason, but a lot of people, although we don't know which wife of a sheriff we think it could be. The best guess is the wife of Sheriff Runkle. Crazy name. And her name was Elsie Runkle. And we think it was her because her stove is still in the kitchen.

[A]

Oh, so maybe she's, like, attached to that somehow.

[B]

Exactly. And at the time, like I said, it was customary for her to be doing all the cooking. Apparently, someone did the math. And her time as the sheriff's wife living there, she would cook, on average, 24,000 meals a year.

[A]

Like, this is what I'm saying. Like, don't get her out of there. Like, she doesn't need to be attached to the stove.

[B]

Also, Sheriff Runkle, if you love her, don't. Don't make her live there. Make her go somewhere else.

[A]

Don't marry her. I hope she, like, is out of there now. I hope it's just residual, you know?

[B]

Yeah. Can you imagine? Like, you made 24,000 meals a year, probably didn't get paid. You had to live in a jail for love, and then for love, and now you're still there. Oh, my God.

[A]

Forever.

[B]

Elsie's a glutton for punishment, I tell you.

[A]

Seriously.

[B]

So and so people think that it's Elsie when they see an apparition going through the kitchen and dining room. For good reasons. However, remember, this is also, like, essentially an antique display now, where a bunch of people could be connected to things

[A]

in that house, especially, like, the tragedies and the shipwreck.

[B]

I mean, yeah. Throughout the building, people also. Or especially in the jail cells, I'll say people feel really uneasy in the cells, although I would argue anyone would, because you're In a fucking jail cell. People hear voices on EVPs, but also just as clear as day. Horrifying. And it seems that some of the mannequins are haunted, which I'm going to get to in a second, but I want to finish this first. Throughout the building, people also hear or see streaks of light, batteries die and equipment. People have been grabbed in the cells by cold hands. People have felt faint and dizzy. And now I'm going to tell you about this mannequin. I just wanted to get through the other stuff first. So one mannequin in particular is in the sheriff's bedroom. And when people are near it, it's child sized, by the way.

[A]

Oh my God.

[B]

People hear footsteps running around it, like a child's running around.

[A]

That's what I was afraid of because I remember you saying footsteps. And I was like, tell me it's not connected to this mannequin. Oh my God.

[B]

Or the clothes it's wearing or something. But people hear childlike footsteps running around this child sized mannequin. And when they've looked at the mannequin and then gone downstairs or something and came back, the mannequin is wearing different clothes.

[A]

No, this is like Robert the Doll. I don't like it.

[B]

That's some Annabelle. Robert did it. Robert did it. Literally. I cannot actually imagine being alone for. And you know what? Sue me. I'm volunteering for the community as a member of the Historical Society. And all of a sudden the mannequins are changing their own clothes upstairs.

[A]

Is this some sort of reality show? Like punked, like, get me out of here.

[B]

Just like that. I'm no longer on the Historical Society.

[A]

I give zero shits all of a sudden about the history of this beautiful town.

[B]

It's that simple. One investigator actually found the mannequin inside. She was like, she was like, oh, I wonder where the mannequin is. I wonder if it's been moved. We don't know how or what happened. And it could have been as, as simple as another staff member did this. But she was like, where's that mannequin? And she's actually, sorry, she's not a staff member. She is one of the paranormal investigators that has been there a few times. She was like, where's that mannequin? And she found it locked in a closet with a chair underneath the doorknob. As if someone tried to lock it in.

[A]

No, no.

[B]

And I don't know what's worse, if there's like a ghost that locked its own mannequin in the closet or A person saw something so scary, it locked

[A]

it in there and didn't even. They're, like, sticking around to explain it. Yeah.

[B]

She literally was like, oh. Oh, my God.

[A]

Oh, God.

[B]

Like, it's just eerie alone just to be like, why did someone have to lock this in? What were you.

[A]

You better believe I see a chair under a doorknob. I'm not finding out if the mannequins behind it.

[B]

There's. No. I don't.

[A]

I'm not finding out. Somebody else find out.

[B]

I never need to know. If I saw a chair with a door. With a chair underneath the doorknob, I'd go in a haunted house. Made a good point.

[A]

No.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Got it. Probably. Yep. Guys, you're onto something. I trust you. I trust your judgment.

[B]

So the same investigator. Her name is Kathy, by the way. We love her. She. By the way, if Kathy. Kathy Conder is her name. If you hear this. Thank you for talking about this place, because the article that interviewed you was the one I got the most information out of.

[A]

Everything else was not so Kathy. Thank you.

[B]

Kathy really hooked me up with some good, good, good stories here. So one thing Kathy did, another time she was investigating, she found an old sailor's navy cap on the floor. And she learned later that it was Sheriff Runkles. And she, like, found in the middle of the floor in the room by itself.

[A]

Okay, she's clearly got some. She's getting, like, some connections to this house. You know what I mean? Like, a lot is happening.

[B]

Well, the even creepier part is, like, okay, so she found his hat, and she's like, well, okay, he was a sheriff here. Okay, that makes sense that his hat would be here, here. But around the same time, this is a quote. Staff found the same sheriff. Sheriff Runkle's portrait had fallen off a wall with a glass smashed.

[A]

Like, what does he want?

[B]

Yeah, he's clearly trying to say something, and I don't actually know if I'm interested in hearing it.

[A]

I. That's right. It's like, thanks, but no thanks.

[B]

I think, like, oh, your portrait just threw itself off the wall. The glass shattered, and now your hat is just sitting in the middle of a room for someone to walk up to again.

[A]

It's like, you probably had a point. I trust your judgment. I'm gonna leave it at that and walk away.

[B]

You know, I would just go, you're right. Whatever you need.

[A]

You are right.

[B]

Whatever you're talking about, you're right. People also apparently experience activity at all hours. It does not matter if you're in the jail cells or if it's dark out or if the lights are off. Kathy literally said the sun really doesn't keep paranormal activity quiet.

[A]

You're never safe.

[B]

I think in the article, she also said something about how, like, she's never been there. And these are. I'm getting all these stories from her, but in the interview, I think she said she'd never actually been there when it was dark. So this is all happening during the day.

[A]

Okay, well, then maybe I would open the closet with the chair underneath it. I think I would if. I know. I think if the sun were out, I would do it.

[B]

I'd slip you a 10 and say, have fun and tell me what you see.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That would be the circumstance for sure.

[B]

She did say. She also said that she'd been in the. Or maybe she'd been in the house when it was darker, but she'd never been in the jail cells at night or something. But she was like, I don't need to. I've seen enough. I know.

[A]

Okay. Yeah, it's enough in the daytime.

[B]

The most common ghost here, though, is a little girl that is seen and heard throughout the front and the back.

[A]

Maybe she locked the little boy mannequin in the closet.

[B]

Well, you know, it's crazy. I don't. Because I associate her with the sound of a little kid running around that mannequin and, like, maybe playing dress up with the mannequin, and that's why the clothes are changing.

[A]

And if it's a little kid mannequin, maybe she's, like, playing with the kid. Like, playing with what looks like a kid.

[B]

Yeah, she's, like, pretending like she's getting a dress up for her or something.

[A]

That I think makes more sense than the mannequin having a. Whatever. Anyway, go on.

[B]

It's certainly scarier when I'm like, oh, this mannequin changes itself.

[A]

Absolutely not.

[B]

But if there's. If the most common ghost is a little girl and you're stuck in that

[A]

house for ever, that she's, like, playing dress up or changing it or running around and then she knows, like, it'll get attention. People will be like, what is that?

[B]

Such a. Sorry, I just swallowed my own spit. That was crazy cute. In case anyone heard it, that was what was going on.

[A]

I heard it.

[B]

Okay. I think that that's probably most likely what's happening. That, like, she's just entertaining herself for

[A]

eternity theory makes sense to me.

[B]

I wonder, though, if. Well, we're about to find out. I Don't have to wonder. I literally did these fucking notes. Okay. She is known to follow people around. One of the other members of the historical society. His name is Scott. And he has said that she's nine years old, and she is, quote, very mischievous, running around and pulling on clothing.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

Which makes me feel like, I mean, she's yanking on people's shirts. But if she's mischievous, running around, pulling on clothing, people hear footsteps, running the clothing changing on the mannequin. And she's very mischievous. That'd be something that's literally all the three things.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

He, like, just described her. Yep. Scott goes on. And I wish he hadn't, because I guess they were asking, like, oh, how do you think this little girl came to be here? Like, was she a sheriff's daughter? What happened?

[A]

Right.

[B]

Scott says, and this is a quote, because I wasn't going to rewrite this. Well, an old Bible was donated to the museum. And unbeknownst to the donator, we found an envelope pressed inside of the Bible. And inside the envelope was a flower and a lock of hair. And it's believed the hair belonged to the little girl because written on the outside of the envelope was dear little so and so a flower from her grave. What the f. So they think that it's her. That's how she's got it.

[A]

Does it say dear little so and so?

[B]

So, so, so and so is, I think, the redacted name of the.

[A]

Understood. Okay, okay, okay.

[B]

Although he went on later to say that people who have investigated have. Because he knows the name. He just hasn't said it publicly, but investigators have come to him and accurately guessed her name. So it sounds like she is chatty and willing to share her name.

[A]

Wow. Wow, wow, wow. Okay.

[B]

I do like that they have that little litmus test on. Like, how good is this investigation crew? Like, I'm not gonna tell you the name. You tell me what it is.

[A]

Is the intel correct? Yeah.

[B]

Oh. But so they think that's how she got here. Which I love that she showed up in the building and she was like, what can I do to kill time? And she found that mannequin and went, great. I'm a seamstress. I'm a fashionista.

[A]

Step aside.

[B]

Move out of my goddamn way. So she. They were, like, trying to figure out, okay, well, what's a little. Who's a little girl that died in the area? Because we only have her hair. We don't know how she died, though. And I guess there's records on a few years before the jail opened. Actually, there was. There's a lake nearby, and a little girl drowned. So they're guessing that it's that girl, but we really don't have evidence of that. And she's also been caught on camera. People have seen her near. One of the antiques they have is a doll collection.

[A]

Oh, my gosh.

[B]

Hanging out with the doll. She's playing dress up. She's having a goddamn blast, actually.

[A]

Yeah, she's clearly having a fun time.

[B]

People also hear her on evp. They always hear a little girl voice. And people have even heard her in real time saying things like, behind you. Right here. And I'm sick.

[A]

Oh, honey.

[B]

Although staff have tried to keep her name, private investigators have been able to guess it when she, quote, told them. And one thing I do appreciate about the Historical Society, besides keeping her name private, is that they do not hide away from the fact that this place has ghosts. They actually have said that they think around seven spirits are always there.

[A]

Whoa.

[B]

And they have allowed paranormal events to be hosted there. They always make sure to say goodbye on their way out for the night because they don't want anything following them home. So they're. They're big believers. Love that. And that is the Allegan County Sheriff's House and Old Jail Museum. Wow.

[A]

I like that. That's one of the ones I would investigate because there's no, like, portal that's gonna make me feel depressed for the rest of my life or whatever. Some of these other places have, like. It feels like they're just human spirits. Yeah, they're just hanging, like, kind of causing some mischief.

[B]

And you know what's interesting is it sounds like the. If there are spirits of inmates, they stay in the jail cell area. I wonder if they do still think they're locked in there there, because nothing up front has sounded scary at all. But then again, the. The inmates weren't necessarily violent or anything. They were, like, living together out of wedlock. So maybe they're also up front. We just don't know who's who.

[A]

Maybe. And maybe there's just, like, the general energy of some of those people kind of lingering, manifesting, not like real people stuck there. Let's hope. Let's hope anyway.

[B]

Let's hope.

[A]

Nice. Okay, awesome. Well, I'm gonna pee as usual. I actually have something today I found for Yappy Hour. I found. I was doing some research on my neighbor on my house, and I found a very funny, like, newspaper clipping of somebody who lived in my house. And I was like, this is insane. Like, this person if they're here, like still in the home. And I found a clipping about their wife life also in the newspaper. Okay, so I'm gonna read that when we get back for. Yup. Yeah. Okay. Brb. Okay. Well, this is finally the time I get to show off because I. I didn't even wash my hair today, but look at it. It's looking good. I'm sensing the difference. I love me some neutral foam.

[B]

Oh, maybe it's maybelline. Maybe it's Ms. Christine.

[A]

And the reason it's even impressive is because I have very, very, very thin, fine hair naturally. So like, like to me, this is very voluminous. But you know, it's.

[B]

I.

[A]

It's nothing to write home about for me. It's a big deal. So thank you to Neutrophil for being such a long term sponsor. I just love you guys.

[B]

Nutrafol is the number one dermatologist recommended hair growth supplement brand. And it's the number one hair growth supplement brand personally used by dermatologists. And Christine, Nutrafol's hair growth supplements are peer reviewed, NSF certified for sport and clinically tested. I have recently also joined the Nutrafol train.

[A]

Yay.

[B]

And so far, so good. But I can't wait for my several months in results.

[A]

Oh, yours are gonna be crazy.

[B]

I have recently also been going through a bit of a hair loss situation. It is horrific because I did not see that coming for me. But Nutrafol is helping me out.

[A]

So I appreciate you let your hair be one less thing to worry about. See, visibly thicker, stronger, faster growing hair in three to six months with Nutrafol

[B]

For a limited time, Neutrophil is offering our listeners $10 off your first month subscription and free shipping when you visit nutrafol.com and enter promo code drink.

[A]

Drink. That's nutrafol.com spelled n u t r a f o l.com promo code drink.

[B]

So Allison is thinking about joining the, like, art fair market with all of her jewelry.

[A]

Jewelry. Oh, my God.

[B]

And so she made this little table and she put a sheet on top of it. And I was like, where'd you get that sheet? And she said, oh, in the slimmer closet. And I went, it has to be a different sheet. You have to use a different one because that's my miracle made sheet. You cannot use that for your table and your booth. I need that to sleep. I needed to sleep.

[A]

Miracle made sheets. Listen, they're inspired by NASA technology. You want her to go to the craft fair without NASA inspired technology? Sheets, like, I don't know, ridiculous.

[B]

I need them to be clean so I can rest my head on them. Because here's the thing, they are temperature regulating, okay?

[A]

Hello. Yeah, that's true. She doesn't need that on a table. That's true.

[B]

All of a sudden, I'm not sweating. Use the other ones. Use the other sheets.

[A]

Yeah, no, you're right.

[B]

Come on, Christine. They're antibacterial.

[A]

Come on.

[B]

Come on. They're smooth, breathable, ridiculously comfortable. And that table does not need to.

[A]

That table is okay without it. And also, like, that table is not a five star hotel. Like, what is she trying to prove? You know what I'm saying?

[B]

Thank you. Thank you. No, the table does not deserve it. I deserve it. You deserve it. Upgrade your sleep or give the gift of better rest. Go to try Miracle.com Drink to try Miracle made sheets today.

[A]

What color did you get? Because I got the green one and it's so pretty.

[B]

I got the navy because I just can't resist. I wanted to, but I can't.

[A]

You'll save over 40% when you use promo code DRINK. You'll get an extra 20 off, plus a free 3 piece towel set. They make an amazing gift, Allison. And with a 30 day money back guarantee, there's no risk. That's try miracle.com drink code drink@ checkout. Thanks to Miracle made for sponsoring this episode. Okay, we're back. I'm in a weird mood now, so that's good for everybody. I just got really [e-mail] of all things. Like, maybe, you know what? Maybe the clipping was from like, ancestry or something. You know, like maybe I'm looking maybe wrong. Do they do. They don't do newspapers. They're.

[B]

They're linked. They have. They're owned by the same people, I think, because if you sign into one, you sign into the other.

[A]

I have like the same account, so maybe I like, saved it there. Whatever. I'll find it. Now just. I'm just irritated, okay?

[B]

Oh, man. Chrissy needs a. Take a breath. Take a breath.

[A]

It's a Uranus in Gemini thing. Okay.

[B]

Yeah, sure.

[A]

Now, here we go. So I had my. And I. When I say my, I mean our lovely second book out on a coffee table in my house. Because I had been looking through it and my daughter walks up and says, mommy, that's way too scary. I don't want that in our house. And I was like. I was like, hey, Mommy wrote that. And she said, I don't care. And she didn't want it around. So I brought it upstairs to my office, which is where I'm allowed to keep my belongings. The rest of the house doesn't really, really belong to me, like Leona's castle.

[B]

And Mommy gets a room in the turret.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Up here where the AC doesn't work. So that's for me. And while all that was happening, I was flipping through the book, trying to prove to her it wasn't quite as scary. Although it didn't work because there's, like, murderers and knives and ghosts and stuff in it. So, yeah, you're right, it is a little scary. But I remembered that we had written about South Dakota, and I had. My brother just had a friend in town who had been talking a lot about South Dakota, has family there, and I was saying, like, oh, I've always wanted to go. I don't know much about it. But then I said, oh, but I have written a chapter about South Dakota in my book, you know, so this is really. I'm sure he loved that.

[B]

He was like, so you've never been and felt like you could write a story or.

[A]

Writing exactly right. And I said, do you want. It's on my coffee table over there. Super scary, if you want to look at it. Yeah. So I was just bragging about it, and for that reason, I thought, why not cover it today? I was at a loss for what to cover, and Leona convinced me that our book is super scary. So I thought, let's do it.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

This is a story out of Sioux Falls, South Dakota, and do you remember what you covered, by the way? I went and looked?

[B]

Not even for a second.

[A]

You covered the story of Mount Marty University in Yankton, South Dakota.

[B]

Sure. I bet I had a great time doing it too.

[A]

That silence speaks volumes. Okay, well, before you get into your

[B]

story, can I tell you a fun thing about our book?

[A]

Please.

[B]

Allison texted me the other day and said that the cashier at grocery outlet knew our book but did not know our podcast. So it was the first time we'd been recognized as authors before podcasting, and neither of us were in there.

[A]

Gasp. Okay, did I. I told you right about the time that I was at the bookstore and somebody picked the book up out of the shelf and, like, talked to her friend, and I was like, this is proof. I'm in a simulation of some kind. Like, this is a test, you know, Like, I don't know what's happening. And Leona literally goes, that lady's reading your book. And I'm like, trust me, I've clocked it. And then they turn to the back and go, oh, it's a podcast. And I'm like, oh my God, this could go so bad. This could like shatter me for eternity. Whatever's.

[B]

I have a similar story that I.

[A]

Please, I've already told mine.

[B]

Well, it feels, it will feel braggy, so we're just gonna have to leave.

[A]

I love that.

[B]

Let's just get it out there. We were New York Times bestsellers. Let's just say that it's not a

[A]

brag, it's a fact.

[B]

A fact. And it is a brag. I mean, what a, what a nice little fact.

[A]

And while we're fact telling, we were also USA Today best sellers.

[B]

Sure. Were we good, good. Good for you.

[A]

Good for you.

[B]

So I was in a bookstore one time and they had a typewriter out. And so I was like, messing around with the typewriter and some. The guy came over and he was like, oh, oh, you're working on a book there. And I went, I don't know what it'll turn out to be, like, just kind of making small talk. I was like, I don't know, I'm just kind of pressing buttons. And he went, well, maybe one day you'll be a bestseller. And I did not say I am because I would be so interesting, but

[A]

that would be so good.

[B]

But I was like, I want to say it so bad just because, like, when would I ever get that mom again? But I'm not going to say it. So I didn't say it the literal. Next week I went to a bookstore and somebody said, oh my God, I want to try to remember the exact words. Oh, it was, it was. So I don't. I'm not going to butcher it, but basically I ended up seeing our book on in Barnes and Noble and I went to go buy a copy of it because I buy it for people. To be fair, my aunt said she wanted a copy, so I was buying copy and I tried to make a joke where I was like, oh, the person on the book. Like, I was saying it to Alison. I was like, the person on the book looks pretty similar to me. And the person who was checking us out said like, oh, yeah, that, that looks like it could be you. And like, oh, you could, you could be a bestseller one day. Or said something like, oh, well, they're bestsellers. I wanted to be like, it is me. But I didn't say, wow. Anyway, it really threw me, but in that moment I was like, I feel. What are the odds that twice in two weeks Someone would. Would imply, like, oh, one day you could be them. And I'm like, I am.

[A]

I think the universe is asking you to own it.

[B]

I owned it to myself, and I pat myself on the back. I was like, that'd be so mean. Or it'd be so. I don't sound braggy to a stranger.

[A]

I don't think so. I think if a stranger said to you. If I said to somebody, yeah, maybe you'll be like, america's Next Top Model. And they were like, oh, my God, this is so weird. But I was America's Next Top Model once. I'd be like, holy, that's crazy. You know? Like, it would never be like, why would you say that? That's so sure.

[B]

I think I'm just paranoid about how it will come across. Like. Like, in good, obviously. You know what I mean?

[A]

Imposter syndrome. And you don't want to be like that guy. And, like, honestly, you don't necessarily want to just start a conversation like that with somebody you don't know. Like, maybe you don't even know if

[B]

it were amongst friends. And I'm allowed to, like, make the joke and look kind of like. And then everyone knows that I say it.

[A]

Blaze would have been like, well, look closer.

[B]

You know, if I. If my mom were next to us when it happened, she would have made me sign it, and then she would sign it and then hand it to the cashier.

[A]

She would sign it first. Let's be real.

[B]

She has signed more of our books than I think we have.

[A]

Don't doubt that.

[B]

She came to one of our shows, and while she was waiting for us in the green room, she signed people's books. And I was like, you didn't even write that.

[A]

Like, who gave you the what? That name doesn't even exist on the book.

[B]

No. I don't know. I don't know. It feels like I'm. We can. We can end this now, because I feel like I'm. I don't know. I have imposter syndrome. But it was. It was. I was just going off of you that, like, where are the odds? Two times in a row, somebody said something where I could have leaned into it, and I was like, no, I need to be better than that. But I felt it in my chest. I was like, good for you, though.

[A]

You.

[B]

You know. You know, you were a bestseller, and you can walk away owning that.

[A]

I think you can say, I think next. I think third time, maybe experiment.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I think third time, if it happens again, maybe the universe is saying, Just try saying, oh, actually, this is so awkward. But like, actually, I. I don't know. Try it.

[B]

If it happens a third time, with your permission, I will give it a shot.

[A]

But okay, we'll see.

[B]

But anyway, since we don't say it enough. Very proud of you. That we're both proud of you too.

[A]

I mean, really, it's. If you ever need someone to. To hype you up on that, just text me. Because it's as shocking to me as it is to you. And I'm the only other person who understands what you're feeling. Yes, the exact way. So, you know, it is a very surreal and humbling but also like ego boosting, but also like surreal and like kind of.

[B]

It's always disbelief.

[A]

Yeah. Like it feels dis. Just doesn't. It's hard to reconcile, like with.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

The rest of life. I don't know.

[B]

Anyway, sorry. Shameless plug to our book, I guess. Damn.

[A]

Yeah, both of them. I mean, I started it by saying I keep the book out on my coffee table. Like, I mean, to be fair, there's like 75 books on my coffee table because I'm constantly just moving piles of junk around trying to organize my house. So it's not like there by itself, but I do have access to it. So when someone says, oh, I'm from South Dakota, I'm like, well, I read a best selling book about South Dakota.

[B]

You at least always have a conversation starter. You're like, south Dakota, South Dakota. What did I say?

[A]

Oh, yeah. And then I go to Google Docs my chapters and then I do control command F. And then I said, that is what I did. But I had to get the book out to actually see your funny quips. So I have those as well. Because I'm going to tell you that, you know, I was surprised. I know I say this every time, but I was surprised I hadn't talked about this because it feels like I have. And also it's just one of the oldest kind of crime stories I've ever covered. So let's get into it. This is the story of Harry Lacy. It takes place, like I said, in sioux Falls, S.D. and. And it takes place only four years into South Dakota statehood. So that's pretty crazy. It was 1893, which was 133 years ago, and Sioux Falls was kind of like a booming city at this point. Right. Like people. I mean, you have covered these towns where people are just like kind of rushing their way over and populating these.

[B]

Yeah, Alexa, play all too well. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Wow, that felt. Is that a real meme? Because that was like. No, you just invented that.

[B]

I'm just like super funny.

[A]

That was like an extremely good meme.

[B]

I'm also a bestseller. I don't know if I've told you that.

[A]

You should see that didn't count as your third one, though.

[B]

Damn it.

[A]

Okay. I know. Has to be a stranger. Okay, so, right, we're four years into South Dakota statehood. It's a little toddler, just like Leona.

[B]

A baby.

[A]

A baby. And we're talking 1893. It's nearing October. I'm assuming it's just a beautiful night when seven year old Sumner Lacy walks into his neighbor's house. They kind of look at him and, and say, hey, son, what's up? What's wrong?

[B]

What are you doing here?

[A]

Without any hesitation, all he says is, they're all dead, sir.

[B]

Oh, my God. God.

[A]

What the.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

I know. Now this is, I, I, this is probably like one of the earliest recorded. I, I almost said family annihilator, but it's not quite family annihilator. It's more just like a domestic violence.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I mean, it's, it, honestly, it reminds me, which is weirdly tragic as well, of the Constantinos, like, similar kind, kind of vibes, but, but, you know, hundreds of years ago. So it's, it's a weird little, like, juxtaposition.

[B]

You did say that we were only four years into South Dakota existing. Do we know for sure if this was like, the first, like, serious crime to come out of South Dakota or like first big murder?

[A]

You know, I looked into it and there. Because it was kind of a wild west area.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

There was so much quote unquote, it wasn't, I don't even know that it was crime. Right. Because like, wild west, lawless land, violent mischief, but violent mischief, murderous mischief. So I imagine there was a lot of death. And. Okay, I mean, you know, people taking land already is going to be cause for plenty of conflict. So. But I don't know. I don't know. This could, I don't think I was able to confirm that it was like the first, you know, in the state, but it was definitely one of the top. And the weird part is like, there's barely any information about this out there. And I. Actually, the frustrating part was that like the, the really well written article that I found from that time period was basically the only, like, super thorough telling of what happened. And I, I had wished like in the chapter I could have somehow. Anyway, my Point is, I'm gonna tell you my own notes, but then I'm also gonna read you the article because it's just written in a way where I'm like, you can't translate that into modern verbiage. It's just like, so fascinating to hear.

[B]

This is what I love about retelling it as an episode because now we get like, even more behind the scenes because we were trying to hit a word count then.

[A]

I know it's like, frustrating. What? You'll never believe this, but we have a tendency to yap. And so when someone gives us a word limit.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Suddenly it's real hard. And it's like we've spent our lives making the periods in our essays bigger to, like, fill space, and now all of a sudden it's like we can't shut up.

[B]

I feel like in one of the meetings we had when writing the book, we were told like, oh, you actually have to like, have all of your stories. Didn't we have something like that?

[A]

They were like, yeah, the other page needs to be used for, like, graphics.

[B]

Yeah. They were like, otherwise it's going to be a 600 page book.

[A]

I was like, oh, yeah, that' happening. So anyway, here we go. So this little boy walks into his neighbor's house, says, they're all dead, sir. And just like a horror movie, the man says, well, let me come with you, son. I'll take you home and we'll see what's going on.

[B]

Brave.

[A]

Yeah. Unfortunately, the man that lived next door where this little boy also lived was his father. And. And his father, Harry Lacey, was dead on the ground with a gunshot wound to the head. So the neighbor. I just like, picture it because the guy is holding this little kid's hand. I don't know, something about it just really disturbs me. I can't imagine what it is, you know?

[B]

Yeah, right.

[A]

Like shooting himself.

[B]

Could be anything.

[A]

Could be anything. Nobody knows is. Here's what they found out very quickly. Sumner's father, Harry Lacy, had. They don't. They called it basically snapping, but I don't really think that's quite how that works, especially when it's like a domestic violence thing. He had pulled out a.38 caliber revolver and shot his wife in cold blood. His wife, Clara, and then his mother in law, Lydia Bunker, before calmly turning the gun on himself. Himself and his son Sumner had stood there and witnessed the whole thing. So at the time, Sioux Falls was seeing this influx of families trying to like, make a new name for themselves, a new home for themselves in the newly minted state. Harry Lacy was no different. He and his wife, Clara Bunker, who became Clara Lacey, had moved from Iowa to Sioux Falls with dreams of creating a successful business. And unfortunately, the move was not as profitable as they'd hoped. And he really struggled financially and being the kind of man who felt very, I mean, it's basically like same old story, right? Like, people don't necessarily change that much. He was insecure about certain aspects of his life, like his finances and his lack of business success, and he took it out on his own family.

[B]

Isn't that funny? Remember how earlier I was telling you this is during yappy hour, that it's wild how things just never change, like across generations. Like, how is that 500 years ago? Or I'm saying 500, that the country was not 500 years old hundreds of years ago, that that could happen then, still happens now, unfortunately, will still happen in the future. That's.

[A]

I mean, it's true. It's like history repeats itself.

[B]

But just like someone could be that insecure that you. It's not just like hurt people, hurt people. It's like, oh, insecure people murder people. How. How is that?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, it's like a lot more layered. So here's what happened that we now know a few years before the murders, Harry's mother in law. Now this is also the issue is that like he clearly also has a complex. I wish I could say it was a product of the times, but we see it get running rampant today too. He had an inferiority complex because he had borrowed money from his mother in law. And okay, imagine like owing money to your wife and her mother when you were already women. Yeah, exactly. Like a hateful person and a misogynist. So they were really struggling. His mother in law had actually sold a portion of her homestead and was pretty wealthy and she had netted $40,000 for it, which today is about $1.3 million. And a woman like at the time, netting that kind of money in the 1800s, you know, you think like, holy smokes.

[B]

I don't even know how that was possible. But so proud of her.

[A]

Very impressive. She sold her. She sold her property. She netted what today is $1.3 million. And she entrusted almost half of it to Harry, her son in law and his, who promised that they would invest it and carefully grow her funds.

[B]

Wow. You don't even have to finish the story at this point.

[A]

I know, I know. That's why it's almost like, why do I even. But like the fact that this happened in 18. The fact that the state was brand new. And they're like, cool, here comes a man murdering his wife and his mother.

[B]

Like, it just had no time to waste. Like, South Dakota was a fetus at this point.

[A]

And it's like this was the seal of approval, you know, like here now it's officially the US of A. Part of the US of A. So she gave half of this money. She entrusted it to her son in law, Harry and his brother, with the hopes that they would invest it, take care of it, have good financial sense, because they're men after all, right? And so they can take care of it for her. She started to get suspicious, rightfully so. And when she asked for the money back, he was like, maybe later. And the more and more she pressured him, the more and more she realized, oh, no, I think he's done something with my money. Her name was Lydia Bunker, by the way. And she was very adamant that she wanted the money to be returned asap, no more. What do you call it? Beating around the bush. And he kept saying things like, oh, I'll offer you. Instead. I'll offer you like this prom. Like, I'll offer you. What's the word when you give someone like a watch and say, like, I promise I'll pay you.

[B]

Oh, collateral or.

[A]

Yes, he was trying. Thank you. He was trying to, like, give her other securities. So like, like, oh, I'll. You can have the deed to the house or something, you know, and she's like, no, I want my money back. Because she knows now something is very wrong.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So as you can imagine, the pressure is increasing. The tension in the house is escalating. His wife, who I imagine is nagging him left and right about losing her mother's half a million dollars.

[B]

Females, am I right?

[A]

She is getting more and more insistent that he repay her. And this all came to a head In December of 1891, when a heated argument during breakfast escalated into violence. Clara, the wife, made what would be unfortunately kind of a fatal mistake in siding with her mother. She insisted that he repayed her mother the money he owed. And enraged, Harry threatened his wife with a revolver. And he was arrested and fined $50. So the end. And he went home. That's unfortunately true for now. That's chapter one, I was gonna say that slap on the wrist, you know. So for much of the following year, Harry lived like, in and out of the house. So he would be with his family for a while and then he would be living on his own. But the entire time he was Blaming Lydia for making his life, and I quote, hell on earth.

[B]

Okay, I don't really believe him. And.

[A]

Well, let's find out over time. The couple reconciled and they moved. How. How could this not go wrong? They moved in with the mother in

[B]

law so she sold part of the property so they could have money. And then he ends up not paying her and is now living in the smaller property with them. And there's no resentment at all.

[A]

Right? Totally. Right. And at breakfast they're having like arguments, you know, like, this is just a disaster.

[B]

And I wonder how much the mom knew because, like, imagine all of that animosity you already have towards him, but also he's now moving in after, like, threatening your daughter with a gun.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. And you're like, how could you possibly feel safe to start an argument living under this roof? Right, Exactly. So they moved in together virtually. It was, it was like a pair of homes, but they were basically connected. The family had what was called a truce. And it's like, that's a red flag in and of itself if you have to call it a truce, you know,

[B]

and it's not even. I would imagine a truce is just like. Well, we're just not talking about it. It.

[A]

Yeah, we're almost just like trying to move past it. Exactly. Well, that truce, whatever it was, lasted all of one week before completely shattering and ending up worse than imaginable. So in the days leading up to the tragedy, Harry Lacy did that classic thing where he walked around and I just find this so gross. He walked around settling bills. Okay. And like, it's one thing when, you know, you hear about somebody who is. Has suicidal ideation and they go around and they're trying to like, like tie up loose ends. And like, of course that's its own situation. But when you hear of these stories of people who are planning to murder their partner, their wife, and they're walking and themselves and they're walking around like, oh, well, I better pay the grocer his dues. And it's like, you're planning to kill the mother of your children. You're planning to kill somebody, a woman.

[B]

Like, yeah, it's also, it's the eerie. The hindsight 20 20, but the eerie overtones of like, he clearly had the plan early on. He can't, he can't feign that. It was spontaneous.

[A]

Totally.

[B]

You clearly. This was step one of a plan.

[A]

100 and it was. So he settled bills, he returned items he had borrowed. He made some unusual offers. Like he had a tab at a Restaurant, and he couldn't pay it, so he tried to give the restaurant owner his coat. And the restaurant owner was like, I don't want this.

[B]

Like, what world did he come from where bartering is like the norm? Or like just a general trade is enough?

[A]

Like, why does he take my coat of the man's? Like, I literally don't want this. Can you just pay me later? Like, stop being weird.

[B]

Like, is that not so narcissistic to be like, or arrogant of, like, oh, well, obviously he'll take this, like, to keep doing it. One thing to like think you could get away with it with like your mother in law and like, she has to deal with it. You, like, just strangers. It's like, oh, you want my coat? Don't worry. You want this?

[A]

Yeah, don't worry, this will pay my bills. Like, I. It was on my shoulders. Like, you.

[B]

Yeah, he's clearly of this world.

[A]

No. And when he tried to give his coat, the restaurant owner was like, well, you're gonna need this. And he goes, no, I won't.

[B]

Hello.

[A]

Hello. Like, and when the guy said, I know, try beef. Like, like, gross. And when the guy kind of like looked at him, he was like, oh, I mean, this is my hiking coat, so I just won't be needing it.

[B]

Also, again, narcissistic to think you can say something like that. And like, someone's not gonna remember how weird you were being. But I guess it didn't matter because if he doesn't care, ending his own life at the end of it, it's not like it's ever gonna affect.

[A]

Doesn't care. So on that Sunday evening, just so creepy, he read the newspaper for a while, then he walked over to his mother in law's house and kicked in the back door. Lydia passed through the room and before she could even realize what was happening, he shot her and she died instantly. Clara, his wife, witnessed the attack, tried to grab the weapon, but he wrenched it free and shot her in the head. The entire ordeal was witnessed by their seven year old, Sumner and his three and a half year old sister, Lydia, which also is right. Heartbreaking. No? Lydia was the mother in law's name, and then Lydia was the little girl's name too. So they had even named the daughter after the mother in law. So like just the layers of like Freudian going on here is crazy town.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then like to be that toddler and that little boy and have to watch your namesake and like your mother and your mother, your grandmother, like, die in such. I mean, it's just horrific, of course. But so it just adds another layer to it that she was like, named after the grandma. So according to the children's retelling, because of course now they're like the only witnesses and have to tell everybody what happened. Apparently Harry stared at his wife's body for a moment, then walked calmly outside, sat down on a wheelbarrow and shot himself in the head.

[B]

The calmness is like.

[A]

It's fucking eerie, dude.

[B]

I don't know why I would prefer him to act like a madman, but like, I mean, I guess because I, then I could justify it better in my mind of like, oh, well, he's lost his marbles.

[A]

Yeah, totally, totally, totally.

[B]

The eeriness is just like a full conscious decision and being calm with it. Like the stillness of like, not free. Because you would think after you do that, then you would should lose your marbles and be like, I can't believe I did that. But he is just like, so at

[A]

peace with what he's done and then to, to, to. To kill himself with that, like, same like, just like, well, I'll take a seat right here. And like having read the newspaper a few hours ago, not even a few hours, an hour ago, it's just like, like what the.

[B]

Yeah, it's, it's the, the creepiness of like I could see anyone outside or at a coffee shop reading a paper right now. And it's like for all we know, he's planning in an hour to kill his whole family.

[A]

Yeah, it's very unsettling.

[B]

Why did he not shoot Sumner or the kids?

[A]

I guess I don't think he had it. Had it out for the kids. I think it was just. He was so done with his, with the women in his life. And I think probably, I mean, a lot of times I think people who are this way act like the kids aren't part of the situation when obviously they are. If it's a domestic violence thing, they're victims as well. But like, I think in this scenario, a lot of times people like this will just be like, oh, the kids. The kids are their own thing. I love my kids. And it's like, well, not really, because you wouldn't be doing something like this, right?

[B]

And also if your mentality was like, well, I have to kill my wife and her mother because I don't want the judgment anymore. Do you not think your now living children aren't gonna judge you for the

[A]

rest of your love you. They don't love their children that way. They just love them enough to be like, oh, I won't kill them, you know, they can keep living.

[B]

It's also the gross. This is like such a side conversation, but like it's the added misogyny of like the kids being only an extension of your life.

[A]

Yeah, totally. No, that's exactly how I see it. It's. Yeah, exactly.

[B]

They're me, so.

[A]

Yeah, they're mine, you know, and they can stay. Yeah, it's just gross. And she's mine and she cannot not. I bought these blue light glasses from Zenny that are heart shaped but then st piece, but they're blue light lenses and they're clear and then when you go outside they turn pink.

[B]

Oh, that's a good time.

[A]

I mean, what?

[B]

First of all, okay, bisexual. Okay.

[A]

I got to say, Zenny, you're nailing it.

[B]

You're nailing it. Wow, what a way to have like transition lenses and like, it looks cool.

[A]

That's the vibe I'm going for. For.

[B]

Oh my gosh. No. We are very lucky to be working with Zenny. Zenny is an online eyewear shop from prescription glasses, sunglasses, blue light lenses, heart shaped glasses that transition from blue to pink apparently all starting at under $30. So you go to zenny.com you pick a frame, upload your prescription and they ship it to your door. So you don't even have to do that. Going to the mall with your mom and putting on 20 pairs you don't like and then settling.

[A]

I just gotta tell you, Zeny Optical, it's the way to go if you're ever looking for glasses of any sort. Really. I did get that laser eye surgery, but you know, I still need those blue and those transitions lenses and it's just a great place to go.

[B]

Yeah. If your glasses are overdue for a refresh, now is the time. Go to zenni.com podcast and use code podcast15 for 15% off your first order and the styles sell out. I'm pretty sure you single handedly just got rid of all the heart shaped glasses. So don't sit on it. Don't sit on it. That's Z-E N N I.com podcast promo code podcast15.

[A]

Also don't sit on your glasses. So here is the newspaper article because I just, I pulled it up yesterday and thought I gotta read this because it's as good as I remembered. Okay, Harry G. Okay, so remember how back in the day they had like six headlines?

[B]

Of course.

[A]

So it's a headline, then slightly smaller headline, then slightly smaller headline.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. The sub. Sub. Subtitle Correct.

[A]

So it says Harry G. Lacey shoots his mother in law and then his wife. He then leaves the house and sends a bullet into his own brain. It was not an act of temper, but was deliberately planned. The murderer settles up his bills before his awful crime is done. Tragic ending of a domestic trouble. Full details.

[B]

Five.

[A]

That's the title.

[B]

So I like how the titles back then were just the.

[A]

Oops.

[B]

The AI version. Like the AI Spark notes or whatever.

[A]

100 where it like over explains.

[B]

You know what?

[A]

Yeah, that whole half is just titles. Yeah, that's layers of titles.

[B]

I wonder if that's just like. I wonder if newspapers weren't meant to be. If the articles weren't meant to be read. Unless you cared about the specific details. And the headlines were just supposed to tell you just, this is the news. If you want more, go here.

[A]

Yeah, here. Wonderful details.

[B]

Like articles were less cared for. Was like, I want to know the headline if I give a shit. Here's some extra info.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

And I feel like maybe that's what newspapers just fucking are in general, even today. But like, in my mind, it's like you're just. I know I'm just describing, but it's like here, these days, I would imagine, like, here's a hook to get you to want to read more. I feel like back then it was like, here's what you need to know.

[A]

I'll right. Do you care? I'll give you the whole story in the headline, but if you want to hear the beat by beat, like, you got to keep reading. Yeah, that's so true. Because now you're right. It is like clickbait. Now it's like, yes, you'll never believe what happened. First murder of South Dakota History. You know, Isn't that crazy that in

[B]

2026, where things should only advance. I'm like describing. I'm like judging the fact that a newspaper was doing its fucking job. Like, giving you as much information as possible.

[A]

That's the theme of today. Like, we're just like sensing these weird patterns. I mean, I even started the episode with like, every 84 years, like, something happens. And then you're like, oh, it's weird how. Like the watermelon ice cream socials. And then now I'm like, oh, this reminds me of the Constantino's. Everything is just kind of like a weird little shadow.

[B]

And then I'm like, what's a newspaper?

[A]

You're like, I can't believe they do the same thing now that they did all the way back then.

[B]

Yeah. But they felt, it felt more accurate and loved on and like they were really reporting the news.

[A]

No, no, I totally agree. I totally agree. It wasn't necessarily like the AI Slop

[B]

5 Headlines is a dedicated journalist.

[A]

Totally. And I'm gonna actually read you the article now. So here we go. Harry G. Lacey, who has lived in Sioux Falls for years and who is known as a bright, competent, cool, desperate man. And I'm like, what a combo. Okay, yeah.

[B]

What? Maybe desperate meant something else.

[A]

I feel like they inter four neighbors and bright, competent, cool. And the ones are like just plain desperate. Oh, I'm sorry, are we not like

[B]

everyone gets a word.

[A]

Yeah, like sorry, I'm not gonna like respect the dead or whatever. Okay. He was known as a bright, competent, cool, desperate man. At 5:30 Sunday evening, shot and instantly killed his mother in law, Mrs. Lydia Bunker, and his wife. And then putting the muzzle of a.38 caliber revolver to his head, blew out his own brains. I mean, Jesus Christ, with the way they wrote things. It was not the act of insanity semicolon, it was the deed of a desperate man who fancied that he had been wronged by others. And it was evidently planned quietly and coolly probably for some days. Friday and Saturday, Mr. Lacey was on the streets settling up his bills. He owed a bill to Art to good the restaurant keeper and turned over a clock in payment. Like he's literally gave him a clock.

[B]

Clock. First a coat, now a clock.

[A]

Like really?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Saturday he came to the Argus Leader office. That's this newspaper by the way, which love that self referential. Saturday he came to the Argus Leader office and said, I owe you a small bill which I am anxious to settle. I have no money, but will turn over to you some books. The books were not taken, okay. But an arrangement was made under which Mr. Lacey, who was an irrigation expert, was to write several articles on the subject for the paper. So basically, in exchange for. So that said, in exchange for my bill that I owe you, I'll write several articles for you about irrigation, by the way. Boring. Okay? Nobody wants that.

[B]

And also it sounds so literally all the way to the day of his death, he was conning people.

[A]

He's conning people. Exactly. He's lying. I mean, he knows he's going to die.

[B]

Yeah. So he was like, oh, yeah, I'll help you out. Just take this. Yeah.

[A]

Oh God. Mr. Lacy talked freely of the articles and discussed the general theme of irrigation with much apparent interest. Yeah, I bet he did. Loser.

[B]

You know, he talked about irrigation in a way where like you're trapped and he thinks he's blowing your mind.

[A]

Yeah. Self important prick. 100%. Later in the day, he went to the Knickerbocker restaurant and to settle a bill of 13, offered his heavy overcoat in painting payment. Roger Marson, the proprietor, refused to take the coat, saying, you'll need it. No, said Mr. Lacy, I won't want it any longer. And as if suddenly remembering himself, said, it is a heavy coat and I only use it while riding.

[B]

Okay, no one asked.

[A]

Good one. Yeah, no one asked exactly. It was finally arranged that Lacy should turn over a few books. What is this? Fucking Amelia Bedelia? Like, this is not how the. And it's like, why are you even settling up your business? Pills.

[B]

Yeah, I know. Like, at this, like, at this point, you're not helping anyone.

[A]

Like, you're not.

[B]

It's. It's truly again, the narcissism. And yes, it's, it's relieving him of something because he believes. But like, if you're.

[A]

He's doing something he thinks is like an act of martyrdom. And it's like, you're not even paying the bill, dude.

[B]

Yeah, you're not even. You're. You're helping no one. You're actually bothering everybody. You're bothering everyone. You're reminding them and rubbing it in their face that you're not going to pay. Pay them and. But for you. Ah, like something is off my shoulder.

[A]

You're 100, right?

[B]

I have nothing left to owe anybody.

[A]

Martyrdom. Yeah. Oh, my God. I never thought about like that. That's so gross.

[B]

Gross.

[A]

Yeah. I'll write. I'll give you my expertise in exchange.

[B]

And now I can sleep at night because I've done what I think is. Is solved the problem, even though I sleep at night.

[A]

He's basically saying I get to go to heaven now because the big sleeve. Yeah, yeah, right. Like, get over it. But the murdering of two innocent people has nothing to do with it either. You know, I can't believe.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It goes to show what people think of women.

[B]

It's wild that that's the last thing he ever did and thought, okay, time for a good afterlife.

[A]

Where he went to. Oh, goodness, a bunch of men proprietors and said, oh, I owe you some expertise on irrigation. Don't let me forget, like, the misogyny

[B]

of needing male approval before he dies while still actually not not getting approval from anyone. Like, he's still just making men also hate him.

[A]

You're right. He's like, trying to, like, square up with all these dudes and it's like they're not even like interested. He thinks it's some sort of big gesture.

[B]

You killed the women in your life because you're afraid of them judging you. But then. But of course you wouldn't try to kill the men who are judging you because they're men. You have to respect them. But then you're also like, not.

[A]

But they're not the ones who are causing the problem.

[B]

And you're not clearing the air with any of the men that you're scared of judgment from. From. You're just gonna go kill women because

[A]

you're scared of their judgment. I think he is. I think he's so self important and grandiose that he thinks like, oh, I better make one final like stop or goodbye or gift on pardon. Gift to all these people.

[B]

I guess so.

[A]

Without even.

[B]

Yeah, I like, I don't like. I'll. I'll never get the. Like, what. What was the goal? What was the goal besides just doing it for himself?

[A]

Ego. Ego.

[B]

It's sick.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Ego twisted is sickness.

[B]

It's sick.

[A]

Yeah, it's sick. Yeah, 100%. So the fact that he wandered around town thinking he was doing some sort of like charity work or whatever to them. Yeah. So he said, no, it's only what I use while riding. It was finally arranged. At least you should turn over a few books. And these. Noon yesterday at 3 o' clock Sunday afternoon, he took the elevator and went up to the Commercial club rooms. Lacy was apparently much confused and disturbed. He remained in the rooms but a few minutes and when he came out, had a small box under his arm. He must have gone from here direct to his house. It is located just east of the motor track which runs north and south from the powerhouse to the town. Just west of the track is the old Bunker homestead. Lacy and his wife were living together after several separations, which Lacy thought had been brought about by the mother, the of in law.

[B]

Of course, of course.

[A]

Mrs. Bunker lived alone in the house west of the track. When Lacey came home, a neighbor was with Mrs. Lacy. Lacy went into the house, sat down and without saying a word, took up a newspaper. Mrs. Lacey arose abruptly and left the house. Her friend also left to go home. Lacey sat quietly for a moment and then left the house. He walked leisurely across the track and toward the Bunker house. He was seen coming and the doors were locked. This is so scary. Like they locked the doors, like unfortunately.

[B]

Great job writing it.

[A]

It's a very well. Well told but. And to Imagine that this was, by the way, the reason they even knew any of this was because the little kids told them. A seven year old was like. And then they locked the door.

[B]

That's a great point, that all the information was, like, told by the PHP of the child. And I wonder if the journalist is actually writing to induce fear in the reader or if he's just describing exactly what the kid said.

[A]

I think it really is. I mean, it's clearly a little scared. He was fruity. But that's how they wrote back then, right? Like, that's why I love it. But it says he walked leisurely. He was seen coming. I mean, this scares the out of me. He was seen coming. And the doors were locked. The back door was a light one. Harry tried the door. It was locked. He kicked it in, breaking the lock. Mrs. Bunker started to pass from the dining room into the kitchen. Just as she reached the threshold, Harry fired at her. The ball struck her back of the right ear and she fell forward, dying instantly. Mrs. Lacy, who saw the raised weapon and feared the worst, grabbed the revolver, but Harry wrenched it from her and shot, the bullet striking in almost the same spot where Mrs. Bunker was hit. That was another weird thing that they noted in the autopsy reports, is that even though they were shot in different circumstances, it was almost identical where. Where he. Where he shot both of them.

[B]

Just like he had a plan of exactly where to get them.

[A]

No, no, it was just accidental. Like, oh, he just shot both of them and just strangely, like, the exact same entry wound.

[B]

I don't know, Yuri, and I'm not trying to be so nitpicky on this, but it is interesting that if he didn't want to harm his kids, he still, like, didn't tuck them away in a different room before this happened.

[A]

Because he's not like.

[B]

You're right, he's not.

[A]

He's not harming them. He's just not. Not harming them. Like, they're just not the targets. They're just collateral damage. Right. You know what I mean? I mean.

[B]

Yeah, I know.

[A]

Harry went up to his wife, looked at her for a moment, Cooley, and walked out of the house. This awful act was witnessed by Lacy's two children, 1,7 years and 1,3 and a half. Lacy then walked out of the house. By the door he had entered. About 20ft from the back door was a wheelbarrow. He sat down upon this, put the muzzle to his right ear, pulled the trigger, and Harry Lacy, weighed down by his real and imaginary troubles, his soul blackened with the Murder of the wife he had sworn to protect, of her mother and of himself. Passed into another world to answer before another tribunal.

[B]

Oh, wow. Whoa.

[A]

They're all dead, sir, said the frightened and harmless voice of the little seven year old. After he had speeded from the house of slaughter and had been admitted to the house of a neighbor, Mr. Jones took the hand of the trembling little orphan and led him back to the house. There's papa, he said as they reached the back door. First of all, what?

[B]

What?

[A]

There lay Harry. So they get to the back door and he's like, oh, there's Papa and it's a dead body.

[B]

I feel like he was so young, he didn't even know what he was really looking at or. I mean, he knew they were dead, but I wonder if it had.

[A]

Oh, I thought the neighbor said it. No, it's the kid.

[B]

I think he's pointing. Being like, there's Papa. Like, there he is.

[A]

Oh my God. I hadn't even read it that way. Oh my God. Okay. I thought it was like. Because it says Mr. Jones.

[B]

Yeah. What a weird thing for him to say.

[A]

Yeah. Okay. Wow. Oh, okay, so. Oh, Jesus. Okay, so little boy says, there's Papa. He. Oh, so much worse, he said. As they reached the back door, they. There lay Harry, his face quiet and peaceful after the terrible tragedy. Under his right arm was a.38 caliber revolver, three chambers empty, a life for each. The blood had matted in his thick hair. Into the house Mr. Jones went. Mrs. Bunker lay on the floor with her arm raised on a chair where she had fallen. Fallen. The right eye was badly swollen and was black and blue. By the stove lay the body of Mrs. Lacey, daughter, wife and mother. Her hand was blacked with powder and a black spot was below her eye. The three people were shot in almost exactly the same place. Harry was the prince of marksman, and he would have considered himself disgraced had he made any misses so disgrace you might kill himself. Right. Like, first of all, let's not be cutesy about that.

[B]

This.

[A]

So the $13 bill that he owed, by the way, at the restaurant in today's money, I looked it up, was. Is $477. So I'm like, he's running up a tab at that restaurant.

[B]

Totally.

[A]

And then he's like, here's my overcoat. Like, please.

[B]

Yeah. And also, I mean, I just, I. That poor kid. And the fact that they, like, I don't know where this kid was. Was he hiding or something? Because how did he witness every single death? I mean, like, that's just so.

[A]

Well, I think what happened is like the in laws, the mom, the in laws freak out. They see, they. Because remember that his wife left the house kind of abruptly when he was home. Like she probably sensed something. I don't know. I don't know. Went to her mom's house with the kids. They're all there. They see him coming, they see him with a gun, they lock the doors, he barges down the door. So the kids are already like, something terrible is happening.

[B]

Yeah, she probably just froze and just

[A]

witnessed it from like start of to finish. And then like once he does these horrible things, he. He just calmly walks outside and then you're like, dad. And you look out and I mean, Jesus Christ.

[B]

It was such a. Out of all the sentences, this was like such a vague, nondescript one. But like, it was just like, obviously the kid is now is reporting to the journalist that you just saw like the mom, like, move from one end of the room to the other when he saw the husband kick down the door or they saw the revolver and she. You could tell that he witnessed her like immediately trying to recoil out of the room or back away from him. And just to know that like she knew immediately what was going to happen. And the fact that he was kicking down the door, I mean, it was just bad.

[A]

And the fact. You're right, because the only source, the only primary source was were these two kids. One's three and one's seven. So the seven year old is telling the story and it's like, yeah, he was the one who knew she crossed the room. He was the only one who knew. Like, he's the only one who could be reporting any of these details.

[B]

Like, she got over, but then he fought it off from her and. And to know that she looked at

[A]

her and like he walked over, looked at her dead body for a few seconds. I mean, like, what the.

[B]

Yeah, so.

[A]

Well, there's that for you. Happy birthday, everybody.

[B]

Dare I ask what the hell were my quips about this?

[A]

Yeah, there was only one.

[B]

Okay. I feel like there were definitely some stories where I was like, how the. Am I supposed to be funny about this?

[A]

This was, I think, maybe one of the last ones where we really didn't know how to kind of get into it. And I have a picture here of the book. It was right near the beginning and it was when Sumner walks into the house and says, they're all dead, sir. And M says, oh my God. And my response is so cringe. I'm sorry. Okay, so you say, I'll take the creepiest thing a child could walk into a room and say to me, say to my face for 800, Alex, which I love. And then I wrote answer Daily Double. And I said, I'd wager it all if I were you. It's so embarrassing. Okay, so that's.

[B]

You know what? But I. I do appreciate because I. Of another insider tip. I was definitely making statements as I read it for the very first time because I didn't want. I knew I was then gonna. It was just gonna get worse from wherever I was reading. And I didn't want.

[A]

If there was something early. It was like, get that spot. Get the quip in now before we find out what's about to happen. Because it's not gonna be like, pretty.

[B]

Yeah. If I read any more. And then it was worse. I was like, I don't know. I don't even wanna be funny earlier up in the paragraph. So I. Then you suddenly lose as. I definitely wrote that as a quip the first time I saw that and went, where the is this going?

[A]

So that's exactly right. Yes. Yes. So that's what happened. That was our only kind of quip for the. For the situation. And then I took a picture of the next page, which was your Mount Marty. So shout out to Mount Marty and the alums or students out there. So that's my South Dakota special. Okay.

[B]

I'm glad you told me.

[A]

As.

[B]

As I'm trying to plan my Dakota.

[A]

I know at some point I thought, hey, maybe may. It'll be of interest to you if you. If you make your way over there.

[B]

Yeah, I. That's. That's the only thing I have to say about South Dakota is that I will be there at some point this year looking forward.

[A]

I love that maybe someone will ask some. Maybe someone will suggest you become a New York Times bestseller and you can

[B]

say, well, actually I. I will literally probably started with. I feel really uncomfortable saying this, but I'm supposed to say, but my friend

[A]

made me promise try to be really

[B]

brave and proud of myself. No, I thank you for the permission because I always feel I want to

[A]

talk about it, but also it's like impossible. I get it. It's so hard. And it's like. And like, I'm not saying if some weirdo is like hitting you up to talk about it. I'm not like pressuring you to make with somebody uncomfortable, but like, you know, if you ever feel like, oh, shit, I should say something. I don't know.

[B]

I know I usually there if I'M again with my mother. She will make sure that it's said because I sort of. But on my own, I'm like, I feel like being humble is the right way to go, but I'm like, no, I think I. Yeah, I don't know.

[A]

Yeah, you're not. Not humble. You know, it's like. And it's also, like, a fun synchronicity for them, too, and. I don't know.

[B]

It is.

[A]

If they say that, and then you're like, leona, when I asked her like, oh, do you want to go tell them that I wrote that book? She was like, not really. And I was like, cool. Thanks.

[B]

She's gonna grow up thinking that. Just everyone does write a book eventually. So you know what? Maybe you're actually encouraging her to normalize that fr. Herself of, like, oh, I'll be an author, obviously.

[A]

Yeah, the bar is super high. You better become a bestseller.

[B]

You know, one day she'll realize and be like, oh, my mom's cool.

[A]

One day I think she'll be like, oh, then anyone can write a bestseller. No, that's what I'm saying.

[B]

I feel like you're normalizing it for her. That, like, it's possible.

[A]

I see. I see. Well, hopefully. Hopefully.

[B]

Anyway, how. How. How is she? Is there an update for the general public? How. What she's into these days, and she's.

[A]

She's still scared of bears and wolves. That is continuing. However, now we use a little. A little potion, a little cleansing spray in the room every night to kind of clear the energy and clear the air. And I'm not so subtly getting her into the witchiness.

[B]

That's fine.

[A]

I love it.

[B]

You can get her into worse. You know, that's.

[A]

I mean, that's what I think, but we'll see.

[B]

I mean, and also, like, like, if you're gonna be into witchy stuff and your mom's gonna be into witchy stuff, there's no such thing as being scared of monsters.

[A]

That's right. That's what I said. I was like, there's so much power you have. Like, yeah, you have power to keep. Keep yourself safe, you know? And I just. I want. I. I don't know.

[B]

This is why those puritans were scared of us, because they. They knew that we knew that we had power.

[A]

Ooh la la.

[B]

Any plans?

[A]

Keep the matriarchy down.

[B]

Any plans for the rest of the week before we re. Record again?

[A]

I have no clue. M. When do we record again?

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

Oh, okay. You know, I don't think I really have any plans. I just taking my watercoloring course, you know, so I'm having fun with that.

[B]

Are you ever going to show us any of your watercolors?

[A]

Oh, I would love to. I don't have any here, but maybe for a yappy hour and then. Oh, maybe we could do a show and tell and you could do like your ASL or something. We could do like. Sure, a little show and tell.

[B]

Very cool. I'll make sure to learn the word

[A]

or an archery or whatever though you're up to nowadays.

[B]

You know, I, I do know that this is water and this is color. So maybe that's watercolors. I don't know.

[A]

I mean that's so cool. I want to learn that. Sorry. Water.

[B]

Water. W. Water. Water colors.

[A]

Water colors. Ah.

[B]

I don't know if that's actually appropriately watercolors but you know, it's water plus colors.

[A]

So I'll take it.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, I'll take it too. So. All right, well, we'll see everybody next week for a show and tell of sorts and drink some water and take your vitamins and your medications.

[A]

Don't drink the watercolor water because moonshine does that. And I'm like, that's gonna give you a tummy ache.

[B]

Your throw up's gonna be green moonshine. You know what I mean? And that's why we drink

[A]

Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile.

[B]

I don't know if you knew this,

[A]

but anyone can get the same Premium Wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying.

[B]

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[A]

So do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you

[B]

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[A]

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[B]

Edu Sci Fi.