E482 A Haunted Coffee and a Propaganda Theatre - featuring That's Pretty Dark

Summary

And That's Why We Drink — Episode 482

“A Haunted Coffee and a Propaganda Theatre”

Date: May 10, 2026
Hosts: Christine Schiefer & Em Schulz
Guests: Kaylin & Christian from That’s Pretty Dark Podcast

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Episode Overview

This episode is a lively, nostalgia-filled crossover with Kaylin and Christian from the “That’s Pretty Dark” podcast, focusing on the intersection between childhood media, the supernatural, generational trauma, and the enduring cultural impact of 90s kids’ movies. The key paranormal spotlight is the Klondike Hotel (aka Klondike Bar/Tavern/Restaurant) in St. Helens, Oregon (also celebrated as the filming location for the Halloween classic "Halloweentown"), followed by a deep-dive into the film’s lore, production, and cultural significance. The group blends personal stories, pop culture analysis, and heartfelt discussion about identity, growing up, and the magic of being unapologetically oneself.

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1. Opening Banter & Guest Introductions

Timestamps: 02:28–05:15

• Hosts and guests share stories of how their podcasts, communities, and personal connections have intersected.
• Discussion of their “Parapods” network, chemistry, and collaboration:
  • Kaylin: "Parapods was really the only network we ever imagined... we were shooting for the moon and the moon was parapods." [04:51]
  • Reminiscing over how guest hosts met during a "speed date," sticker exchanges, and rides from conventions.
• Lighthearted chat about drinks at the (virtual) podcast table:
  • Clyde May's Alabama Style Whiskey, Maison Perrier Blackberry bubble water, THC seltzer, and Capri Sun Moon Punch.
  • Christine: "Whiskey is my favorite drink to sniff." [06:22]
  • Kaylin: "I'm the sniffer. These are the notes I'm sniffing." [06:43]

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2. The Haunted Klondike Hotel (Bar/Tavern/Restaurant), St. Helens, OR

Timestamps: 12:14–23:09

Brief History

• Built in 1910 as the St. Helens Hotel; functioned as a boarding house and hotel, with a brothel behind it.
• Bar inside closed in 1961; venue has since seen multiple names and forms (Klondike Hotel, Klondike Tavern, Klondike Restaurant & Bar, simply The Klondike).

Paranormal Activity

• Noted as one of the most haunted places in Oregon, featured in TV investigations (with Lorraine Warren via “Paranormal State”).
• Hauntings include:
  • Disembodied voices, including whispers of guests' names — Kaylin: "That's rough. Lorraine." [17:24]
  • Objects moving on their own—pictures thrown, light bulbs exploding, glassware shattering.
  • Apparitions: Little girl crying, older man vanishing from a booth, head-&-torso-only figure atop the stairs, little boy seeking his dad and vanishing.
  • Electronics misbehaving: Radios and coffee makers turning on/off, volume changes.
  • Sightings of figures in blocked-off or empty areas.

Community Connections & Ghost Tourism

• Location for paranormal investigations, spiritual and psychic classes.
• Ownership changes: Holcomb Waller bought and rebranded as The Klondike, focusing less on the haunted reputation but possibly missing out on its marketing potential.
  • Kaylin: "If you're going to be involved in this, do something about it... imagine if the ghosts are now leaving notes on the coffee maker." [18:53–19:02]

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3. Linking Nostalgia & the Supernatural: Halloweentown and St. Helens, OR

Timestamps: 26:06–27:52

• St. Helens, Oregon, is also the filming site of the 1998 Disney Channel Original Movie (DCOM) "Halloweentown."
  • Christine: "This was your first time watching Halloweentown, which is so exciting. Welcome to the fold." [27:43]
  • Em: "It was a fucking delight. I was beside myself." [27:52]
• Discussion bridges Christine’s haunted building story with “That’s Pretty Dark’s” expertise in nostalgia/scary kids’ media.

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4. That’s Pretty Dark Podcast: Childhood, Media, and Intergenerational Analysis

Timestamps: 28:22–32:14

• Podcast mission: Exploring children’s media that scared or shaped them, especially those “subliminally dark” stories that stuck.
• Kaylin:
  • "We kept realizing that we all felt like we watched these things on our VHS player, by ourselves or with siblings… before any of us could connect and talk about what we were seeing." [28:56]
• Christian:
  • "We're the last generation to fully experience true disconnect from the social era, childhood—pre-internet, pre-digital age…" [29:22]
• Shows and themes discussed:
  • Don Bluth movies (All Dogs Go to Heaven, The Rescuers), Courage the Cowardly Dog, Pinocchio, Brave Little Toaster.

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5. Revisiting Halloweentown: Production History & Plot

Timestamps: 34:09–91:46

A. Production Fun Facts

• Originated in 1991 from a real child’s question: “Where do all the Halloween creatures go when it isn’t Halloween?”
• Kaylin: "This question that she asked her dad turned into a pitch, then a script … and then it was rejected several times." [35:06]
• Disney only picked it up after the success of the first DCOM, “Under Wraps.”
• Budget shrink: Promised $20-30M, got $4M. Filmed in 24 days around St. Helens, OR.
• Christine: "[St. Helens] recently experienced a volcano... the town was pretty abandoned. They were eager for people to come in." [40:52]
• Annual "Spirit of Halloweentown" festival in St. Helens, complete with pumpkin lighting and visits by Kimberley J. Brown (Marnie).

B. Film Recap & Analysis

i. Plot Summary

• Marnie, 13, feels different, resents her mother's secretiveness about Halloween and the supernatural, and discovers she is actually a witch from a long magical line.
• Grandma Aggie reveals magical heritage; magical powers expire if Marnie doesn't begin training before her 13th Halloween.
• Kids sneak to Halloweentown, discover magical society, and confront dark magic—eventually facing Mayor Calabar, who wants revenge for being “rejected” by Gwen.
• The kids defeat Calabar, embracing both their magical and human heritage.

ii. Thematic Discussion

• Coming of Age, Parent-Child Relationships, Identity

  • Kaylin: "It illustrates the inefficacy of ignorance or like abstinence-based education... you want to protect your kids so you don't tell them about magic." [55:39]
  • Parenting styles, generational trauma, honoring one’s identity
  • “You don’t have to reject where you come from to build a new life. You don’t have to stay small to stay safe. You don't have to be normal to belong.” — Kaylin [91:50]

• Metaphors for Marginalization/Oppression

  • Kaylin: "Humans and monsters didn’t mix because humans were the real monsters… monsters just wanted a human life ... but marginalization turned them hostile." [65:53–66:50]
  • Christian: “Calabar is out for blood... his power trip is basically just the work of jealousy, ego, and fragile masculinity.” [82:38]

• Pop Culture & Psychological Impact

  • Deep dives into tropes: Removing adults from stories, giving kids autonomy and agency, the role of belief in magic vs. rules, and why certain elements (like the ghost sweat scene) were accidentally chilling or offbeat.

• On Notable Recasting

  • Outrage over Marnie being recast for sequels:
    • Kaylin: “She was considered too old to play Marnie… she is literally Marnie’s age. How can you Rubik’s cube your way out of that?” [44:49]
    • Fun Fact: Kimberly J. Brown and her eventual real-life husband were both in “Halloweentown II: Kalabar’s Revenge.” [94:14]

iii. Notable Quotes & Moments

• Christian: “I think they’re doing something psychically to us with all those juicy commercials — neurons were firing.” [08:41]
• Christian: “My ultra-religious aunt gave me a DVD of the Goonies... She had no idea what it was about.” [78:02]
• Christine: “Line dancing is actually very, very gay.” [60:17]
• Kaylin: "Magic is knowing what you want and letting yourself have it.” [85:23]
• On Halloween Town's allegory for queer experience/identity: Multiple reflections on the importance of self-acceptance, chosen family, and community.

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6. Reflections on Nostalgia, Media & Magic

Timestamps: 91:46–the end

• Kaylin: “Figure out who you are and then let yourself be that person... This movie is just such a great 10 out of 10.” [95:01]
• The group closes with appreciation, mutual admiration, and a preview for a future crossover (focusing on “The Ring” and more existentially heavy childhood traumas).

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Key Timestamps & Segments

• 02:28 – Guests introduced, stories of connecting through parapods
• 12:14 – Ghost story: Klondike Hotel
• 26:06 – Bridge to “Halloweentown”/St. Helens nostalgia
• 34:09 – Behind-the-scenes and lore of “Halloweentown”
• 49:50 – Deep parental/coming-of-age themes; allegories
• 74:00 – Propaganda Theatre scene, metaphors get explicit
• 85:23 – “Magic is knowing what you want and letting yourself have it.”
• 91:50 – Kaylin’s thesis: embracing multiple identities, rejecting “either/or”

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Notable Quotes (with Timestamps)

• Kaylin (on parapods) [04:51]: “We were shooting for the moon and the moon was parapods.”
• Christine (on the Klondike ghostly coffee maker) [18:53]: “Imagine if the ghosts are now also leaving notes on the coffee maker—whoever didn’t clean up last time, I’m on to you.”
• Kaylin (on Halloween Town life lesson) [91:50]: “You don’t have to reject where you come from to build a new life... you don’t have to be normal to belong.”
• Christian (on Calabar’s villainy) [82:38]: “Calabar is out for blood... jealousy, ego, fragile masculinity.”
• Em (on watching Halloweentown for the first time) [27:52]: "It was a fucking delight. I was beside myself."
• Kaylin (on Magic) [85:23]: “Magic is knowing what you want and letting yourself have it.”

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Closing

Where to Find the Guests

• That’s Pretty Dark Podcast (all platforms & Instagram: @thatsprettydarkpodcast)
• Now officially a part of the Para Pods community.

“You’re never really alone.”

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Final Word

This episode blends ghostly lore, 90s nostalgia, and honest personal storytelling with sharp analysis about what our childhood stories really taught us—and how the lessons (about self-acceptance, community, courage in the face of fear, and dismantling toxic norms) remain as relevant as ever. Perfect for fans of spooky stories, DCOMs, or anyone who ever wondered where the monsters go when the magic’s over.

Transcript

[Em]

Girl, winter is so last season. And now spring's got you looking at pictures of tank tops with hungry eyes. Your algorithm is feeding you cutoffs. You're thirsty for the sun on your shoulders. That perfect hang on the patio sundress. Those sandals you can wear all day and all night. And you've had enough of shopping from your couch. Done. Hoping it looks anything like the picture when you tear open that envelope. It's time for a little in person spring treat. It's time for a trip to Ross. Work your magic.

[Kaylin]

This episode is brought to you by Prime Obsession is in session. And this summer, Prime Originals have everything you want. Steamy romances, irresistible love stories. And the book to screen favorites you've already read twice off campus Elle every year after the love Hypothesis, Sterling point and more. Slow burns, second chances, chemistry you can feel through the screen.

[Em]

Your next obsession is waiting.

[Kaylin]

Watch only on Prime.

[Em]

This is so embarrassing because I feel like we're being called out.

[Christine]

We're partnering with Reddit and I use it to fall asleep because Allison, she could hear if I'm watching videos. So I need something silent. I started using credit to read at night and I'm in all sorts of subreds. It's very fun whenever I'm traveling. Shocking amount of information for Reddit these days. If I'm looking something up, Reddit is the first link.

[Em]

My favorite is when you search for things online and like the auto fill in is is Reddit and it's basically people like holding something in their hand and then they say guess what's in my hand and then you comment and then the next day they reveal it and you see like you can practice your psychic gifts. So listen, there's something for everybody.

[Christine]

I mean for me it's my reality TV show Scandals. That's where I. Because I don't know anybody else who watches my my stories. And so I have to go on Reddit and all of a sudden I'm in a huge community full of people who are talking about it and it's been very wonderful. I also get a lot of. I'm in a lot of local community subreddits. So that's how I've actually found out about events I've taken Allison on dates to. So very nice.

[Em]

That's why we turn to our favorite subreddits when we are looking for basically entertainment information. Any of the above. Download the Reddit app and get answers on whether you're psychic, whether or not

[Christine]

people agree on your scandals, your drama, you know.

[Em]

Yeah, yeah. Whether you Have a hot take or not. You know, you'll find out.

[Christine]

Download the Reddit app today.

[Em]

I am so excited to now officially start the podcast and welcome our two wonderful guests. We have Christian and Kaylin here from. That's pretty dark. We're so happy to have you here. I have actually not met either of you officially. Even Emet.

[Kaylin]

Not until right now.

[Em]

Weirdly talked about you when you've come organized. That's right. Thank you. I knew we'd be friends. But I have talked about you in that I've mentioned you and said, oh, yeah, I haven't met them.

[Christine]

I've met Caitlin. So nice to meet you, Christian.

[Christian]

That's my. That's my favorite way to know a person is like, yeah, you know, they. We've.

[Kaylin]

I should know that. Yeah.

[Em]

Well, your story precedes you. You know what I mean? Like, you have a reputation. Yeah. I think that's actually kind of a superpower. So, anyway, we're so happy to have you on the show. Welcome. And yeah, Emma, Em and Kaylin have been on a speed date. Right.

[Kaylin]

Our only capacity knowing each other is when we were dating briefly for 15 minutes or so.

[Christine]

And it was a great. A great. Honestly, days I've ever been on. So.

[Kaylin]

Yeah, same, truly.

[Christian]

But neither of you gave each other a ride home. Wasn't that where it ended?

[Kaylin]

It wasn't a ride kind of vibe.

[Christine]

No, no, no, no. But Kyn did send me some lovely stickers, and they are officially now the stickers that ended my sticker book, the Final Chapter.

[Em]

Wait, you know what? I remember that question of, would you give the other person ride? And I was with Taylor of Creeps and Crimes, and it ended up that we were both trying to give each other a ride, and we accidentally, like, swapped some cities or something. And then.

[Kaylin]

You'll be where she is. She'll be where you are.

[Em]

Yeah, exactly. We switched places, and then Eva ended up coming in and saying, I'll give both of you a ride. So we kind of just like, like, botched our way into a ride from Eva. Yeah.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

So I do remember that. That was fun.

[Christian]

You guys are way too trusting.

[Em]

That's one word for it. Hey, we're among friends.

[Kaylin]

If we're among parapods. That's how I feel personally.

[Em]

Yes. We're all connected.

[Kaylin]

Great circle of parapods.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Kaylin]

We are just beyond thrilled. Thank you, first of all, for letting us be here. For letting us be on. It's the thing that you're not supposed to say to, like, a prospective suitor or, like, A job or whatever. But pearpods was really the only network we ever imagined. We weren't. It's not like we were shopping, if I'm being honest. It made so much sense to us. Just too much sense. And we were very thrilled that all of you agreed. Oh, my goodness.

[Christine]

You're very sweet.

[Em]

Well, that's so kind.

[Kaylin]

It was truly the. Like, we were shooting for the moon and the moon was parapods. And somehow we made it, us and

[Em]

NASA together from our end. We saw your lovely show and I remember, like, clicking the website and I was like, this is. This is the stuff. This is it. And it's just. It's just a great match. I think our ego is sky high.

[Christine]

Thank you so much.

[Em]

Yeah, you just. You just really.

[Kaylin]

It's going to be a ride today.

[Em]

Well, well. Oh, jinx.

[Christine]

I was gonna say, does anyone have censuses? And that's why we drink. Does anyone have anything that they're drinking today? Do you have so many things.

[Christian]

Okay, hold on. I put it away, but I'm going to get it because this is the time.

[Em]

Why would you. Oh, so you were like, oh, it's time for. And that's why we drink. I guess I'll put my beverage away.

[Kaylin]

We get to be asked the question and you're going to put away. There it is.

[Christine]

That's an incredible thing to drink.

[Christian]

Now we're having Clyde May's Alabama style whiskey celebratory.

[Christine]

That's a Christian question.

[Em]

That's a sentence that I.

[Christian]

Am I allowed to show this on the.

[Em]

Yeah, you're actually required to show it on air. That is a beauty. I've not had that. I've not had the pleasure. I'll be honest. Not had the pleasure, but it looks like a pleasure.

[Christian]

Are you a whiskey person?

[Em]

You know I'm not.

[Christian]

I know you've done, like, wine historically.

[Em]

Yeah. And I live in Kentucky, so, like, I really tried with the bourbon thing. It just is, like, not. It's not for me.

[Christian]

No, I get it, I get it. I get it.

[Em]

Anyway, maybe someday when I'm an old man. An old rich man. Yeah. I feel like if you're in there. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[Christine]

Whiskey is my favorite drink to sniff.

[Kaylin]

You know what? Me too. I can't have much of any anymore due to, like, all weird chronic health issues. So my friends do tastings and I sniff them.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Kaylin]

That's actually so sweet.

[Christine]

Welcome to my world. Yeah, it's. It's. I don't know how to describe it. It is very fun once you just commit to the bit and you're like, I'm the sniffer of the party.

[Kaylin]

So I'm the sniffer. These are the notes I'm sniffing. We'll see if your palate agrees.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Kaylin]

What?

[Christine]

Do you have a favorite thing you've sniffed?

[Kaylin]

Great question. And I really, I don't because it's really the memory of what the whiskey was.

[Em]

And like now Krish and I are

[Christine]

kind of like, yeah, this is second date conversation.

[Em]

Go away. Really intimate stuff. What?

[Christian]

Have you sniffed anything recently?

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Well, what was it like?

[Em]

What was it like anyway? Well. Katelyn, are you drinking anything? Are you drinking any?

[Kaylin]

Yes. It's a bubble water, as I call them. Forever BlackBerry. And this just has the right amount of bubble. It's the Maison Perrier. Like, I don't know, some bubbles are just too. I like the Aldi brand and I like Maison Perrier. I like BlackBerry peach occasionally.

[Em]

That's charming. I like that. Beautiful. Oh, I have a little THC seltzer for funsies.

[Kaylin]

Christine. I thought that's what that was. I recognize the can. That's all. I'll say.

[Em]

It's pretty darn good. Oh, it's pretty darn good. I gotta try.

[Kaylin]

Is that the raspberry lime, girl?

[Em]

You know, it is just. No, you sure do. Grown in Kentucky, by the way. So we're all doing our local.

[Christine]

Just to finish it out. I am drinking another moon punch. Capri Sun. Oh, hell yeah, it is. This one is the waning crescent.

[Christian]

Oh, look.

[Kaylin]

Yeah, I have to find some of that. I really, I need to.

[Christian]

I haven't had that one. There are so many things that I talk about on our show or anytime I talk about nostalgic things. It's like Super Soakers and Capri sun and like Gushers Capri Sun.

[Christine]

I would love to talk to you about Super Soakers one day. We don't have to do it right now because it'll get too lengthy, but I do. I have a lot of opinions about the Super Soakers and I did think Capri Suns. I thought it was fitting since you are also a nostalgia based podcast. So I thought that was nostalgia. Very lovely.

[Christian]

Really. Anything that had like juicy commercials, lots

[Em]

of fluid, they were doing something that psychically to us or psychiatrically, I don't know. But like we were all going through

[Christian]

puberty, you know, neurons were.

[Em]

Synapses were firing, etc, things were.

[Kaylin]

Dots were connecting.

[Em]

Just like squishing. Yeah, for sure.

[Christine]

Well, since you are a. Also a spooky and nostalgia based podcast, we have a very fun topic for people today, but I'm going to start it off. I'm going to pregame with my own topic to lead into your topic. So excited and the the connection between the two. Maybe people will know where we're heading when I say this, but I have a story for everybody today and it is in St. Helens, Oregon. And if people know what that means, then they know what that means. And if not, you're in for a nice surprise. I have always said that I am not great with banking and I stand by that. I also stand by that it's been really helpful to have a buddy next to me. And that buddy's name is Chime is Christine.

[Em]

Oh wait.

[Kaylin]

Oh.

[Em]

I've never offered you the benefit of up to $1,150 in annual rewards. I don't offer. I don't feature Spot Me, which lets you overdraft up to $200 fee free. Like I understand why Chime is taking kind of like my place. I get it.

[Christine]

It's not your fault that Chime is rated five stars by USA Today and not you.

[Em]

Not me.

[Christine]

But you know what? We we all have our perks and right now Chime is the star of the show. You. Plus with all of this, you can actually get premium travel perks at airport lounge access, which I know you know you love an airport lounge and I do 24. Seven travel concierge included with your Chime card, which if you're a traveler at all or even if you're just going on a family trip, that could be so helpful.

[Em]

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[Christine]

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[Kaylin]

Chime is a fintech, not a bank. Banking Services from my Pay and Chime Card provided by Chimes Bank Partners. Optional products and services may have fees or charges. Stated annual percentage yield and cash for Chime prime only. No minimum balance required. Checking account ranking based on the J.D. power survey published October 20, 2025. For more information on APY rates, my pay spot me and travel perks, go

[Em]

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[Christine]

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[Em]

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[Christine]

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[Em]

Once again, that's DailyLook.com for 50 off. And make sure you use our promo code DRINK so they know we sent you one last time. DailyLook.com promo code DRINKFORE.

[Christine]

We're gonna cover the Klondike Hotel. And I say Klondike Hotel hesitantly, because I learned through my research that it is sometimes called the Klondike Hotel, sometimes it is called the Klondike Tavern, and sometimes it's called the Klondike Restaurant and Bar. And recently it has just been called the Klondike.

[Kaylin]

So all three, all four concise at once.

[Christine]

Thank you so much. Buckle in. And as I mentioned, this is in downtown St. Helens, Oregon. The building itself was built in 1910, and it was originally called a completely different name, which is the St. Helens Hotel.

[Em]

More on the nose.

[Christine]

And the St. Helens Hotel opened, although it was mainly more of a boarding house for the workers in town. And fun fact, there was a brothel behind it. So I like to imagine that there was probably some colorful history going on. There was not. Not your. Not your average Joe hotel, except. Just kidding. Every hotel in the early 1900s seems to have been connected to a brothel.

[Em]

It's just part of the. It was just a different.

[Kaylin]

What else were they gonna do, you know?

[Em]

Yeah, exactly.

[Christine]

They didn't have screen Internet. I know.

[Kaylin]

Free screens in general.

[Christian]

They didn't have Phones and they couldn't read, so. They couldn't. Like, not the library.

[Christine]

Yeah, Many of them cannot read.

[Em]

It's actually, like, down here we have

[Christian]

our selection of fine books and literature Class literature.

[Em]

And there's the brothel. The door to the right. Yeah, yeah.

[Christine]

Yes.

[Em]

Sorry. Take your brick.

[Christine]

So my understanding of. I mean, I'm going real quick through this. Just that it was a hotel, also a boarding house, and then at some point, the bar closed. I. I know the bar closed in 1961. There was a bar inside this hotel. It closed, but then.

[Em]

Oh, was it by chance called a Klondike Bar?

[Christine]

Oh, literally. Yes.

[Kaylin]

What would you do?

[Em]

Literally anything.

[Christine]

Well, thank you. First of all, thank you for mentioning that if you did not. I literally had highlighted in my notes that, like, a Klondike bar is, like, also nostalgic. And I was like, what are the odds?

[Em]

Locked. Your own joke. I'm sorry.

[Christine]

You were told. I was hoping somebody would say it stole the thunder. It had to be you.

[Christian]

Connecting.

[Em]

They keep connecting. That stellium, I think, is what it is. Yeah.

[Christine]

The bar closed in 1961, and I think it was. It was on the second floor of this building that was a hotel. So I say that because it's odd that now the tavern is. It's. Has reopened since on the second floor of what is now everywhere else in abandoned buildings, you have to go, like, to the second floor of a building that's not really used to go to the restaurant.

[Kaylin]

Well, that's a recipe for paranormal happening.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

For bad.

[Kaylin]

They asked for it.

[Christine]

They did. And at some point, I don't know if the St. Helens Hotel became officially named the Klondike Hotel or if it got the name the Klondike because the bar inside was called the Klondike Restaurant and Bar, or the clock. So I. I don't. I don't know how Klondike people have suggested in the past do the Klondike Hotel. And then Eva, who actually is the one who suggested this topic, I think Eva also called it the Klondike Hotel. So it's known as the Klondike Hotel when you search for it, but nowhere is it actually called that.

[Kaylin]

So it came first to borrow the hotel. It's just kind of murky.

[Christine]

Yeah, it's all murky. I really. I tried, and yet I came up with kind of nothing.

[Kaylin]

So we understand that.

[Christine]

Thank you. So although the bar is open inside the hotel, the rest of the building is closed off, which, as you said, is the perfect Recipe for ghosts. And in 2018, the Klondike restaurant and Bar, or the Klondike Tavern, however you call. At the time they thought it was permanently closing down because I guess it was just hard to maintain and things like that. And up until that time, 2018, this was known to be one of the most haunted places in Oregon. So it. Oregon.

[Em]

No, you're right.

[Christine]

The first time I hear it every.

[Em]

The Klondike State. Yeah.

[Christine]

So in 2018, right before it closed up until that point, it was noted everywhere as incredibly haunted. People had investigations going on in there. A TV show is filmed in there. Lorraine Warren actually went in. I don't know if you are familiar with the Warrens, but. Okay, so Lorraine Warren went in there with one of the TV shows and they did a three day investigation there and she was like, oh, it's so haunted. She. Of course, of course. I've never seen her go to a place and not think it's haunted.

[Christian]

I'm not surprised.

[Kaylin]

Did Mr. Bagans enter the chat?

[Christine]

Bagans has not been there yet. Okay, well, there's, it's all. There's always time for that, I think.

[Kaylin]

Always.

[Em]

He'll find his way.

[Christine]

Of the things people have witnessed here, people have heard voices in empty rooms. They've also heard voices whispering their names which cannot imagine something.

[Kaylin]

That's rough. Lorraine.

[Christine]

Lorraine, Lorraine.

[Em]

Oh, that's actually very scary.

[Christine]

Horrific.

[Em]

Thank you.

[Christian]

Your husband sucks.

[Em]

Your husband. So do you. You're the worst.

[Christine]

You know what? That is worse is just being judged and criticized the whole time.

[Kaylin]

Like Negroes of ghosts who hate you.

[Em]

Yeah, they just use.

[Kaylin]

Specifically.

[Em]

We just covered that in an episode we recorded episode that will come out before. Before this one, but hasn't come out yet. Where these ghosts just hated Nick Grof of Ghost Adventures. And literally anytime they talk to him, they're like, Nick Gro.

[Christine]

They were like, let us know you're here. And it's like, we hate you, Nick.

[Em]

And it's like, wow. It's got to be personal at that point. I don't know.

[Christine]

Well, so people hear all sorts of voices. They hear a little girl crying out. Apparently the. The radio will turn on and off and the volume will change itself.

[Em]

Awful.

[Christine]

A coffee maker turns itself on and off. Which I'm kind of okay with that.

[Kaylin]

Yeah.

[Christian]

Well, I mean, if it's making a good cup of coffee, sure.

[Christine]

But if it makes a pot.

[Christian]

Yeah, but if it makes a bad cup of coffee.

[Em]

Yeah, I was gonna say if it's making it from the same grounds over and over again. That's pretty gnarly.

[Christian]

I think it's kind of like. It's not, like, your fault, but it's your responsibility to, like, replace.

[Kaylin]

Clean the coffee.

[Christian]

Yeah, it's up to you, too.

[Christine]

If you're going to be involved in this, do something about it.

[Christian]

You want to see in the world, you know?

[Christine]

Imagine if the ghosts are now also leaving notes on the coffee maker. Be like, whoever didn't clean up last time, I'm on to you.

[Kaylin]

While you're at it, clean the microwave.

[Em]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, man.

[Christine]

So objects move on their own throughout the building. Pictures have thrown themselves off of walls, light bulbs explode, drinking glasses have shattered themselves, and people have seen figures. And the windows on floors that are blocked off, so nobody should be there. But they see people walking around up there. They've seen a little boy asking for his dad, and then he vanishes.

[Christian]

That's just sad.

[Christine]

Yeah, I want to know the lore, but also, I think maybe for my own mental health, it's probably for the best. I don't know.

[Em]

Yeah, it's just. Probably just a real bummer.

[Christine]

Like, I'm nosy, but, like, I don't know if I'm that nosy. People have also seen an older man sitting at a booth, and as soon as the waiter goes up to take his order, he vanishes, which I love. Fun. And then people see a floating half of a body at the top of the stairs. They see, like, just the head and torso, but no feet. How'd you get up the stairs anyway?

[Christian]

Wait.

[Christine]

Good question.

[Christian]

To go back to the waiter. Isn't that just a waiter?

[Em]

Oh, dis. Hey.

[Christine]

Now that's something.

[Em]

Actually, we officially side with the service industry. Thank you so much.

[Kaylin]

For real, all of us.

[Christian]

You guys are on your second date. It's all about how you treat the waits.

[Em]

You know what? All right, we're eyeing it.

[Kaylin]

We're paying attention.

[Christine]

Great point.

[Em]

It's so true.

[Christine]

The. The building, like I said, has had a bunch of paranormal investigations come through. They've also had, like, they've hosted spiritual classes there. So I just know Christine would eat the shit up. They. They've had, like, classes hosted. There were, like, to open up your third eye and, like, psychic classes, and you go in there with an experienced psychic and. And they help you tap into stuff.

[Christian]

Yeah, I just.

[Christine]

I just know.

[Kaylin]

Christine, would you do ayahuasca at the Klond?

[Em]

Oh, well, that feels like a fake sentence.

[Christine]

It's gone from what would you do for a Klondike bar? To what would you do at the Klondike?

[Em]

It's truth or dare at the Klondike Bar?

[Christian]

Yeah. I mean, you have to, because you don't want your third eye to be blind.

[Em]

Oh, yeah. Now, come on.

[Christine]

Hang on.

[Kaylin]

Your life.

[Christine]

Hang on.

[Kaylin]

Semi Charmed.

[Em]

I've actually.

[Christine]

My footing has been destabilized, apparently. This is a quote from a newspaper article. I saw nearly every team or investigated group that's gone investigating there. Nearly every team has reported sensing an altercation that took place somewhere on the second floor, which is where the bar was. So I could see, like, a saloon where the alcohol is. Yes. The show that Lorraine Warren guested on was Paranormal State. Fun fact, in case you want to go watch it. And I did say in 2018 that the building closed and they thought for good. But after the pandemic, there was a guy from Portland named Holcomb Waller, and he took a tour of it, and he was like, I've always wanted to open my own bed and breakfast or boutique hotel or some phrasing like that. He was like, maybe I just do that right now. And he ends up buying the place. And his plan, at least at the time of this news article, was to reopen the restaurant and reopen the hotel and completely have it as it once was. I think since then, the hotel plans are out, and it's just the restaurant that's open, which it's now been, according to its website, renamed the Klondike. And I have not seen any mention of him talking about ghosts, but maybe that's part of his, like, rebrand. But I would argue that the rebrand needs the ghosts.

[Em]

It does.

[Christian]

Yeah. Why wouldn't you lean in?

[Kaylin]

He's wrong at this point.

[Christine]

I don't know if he's listening.

[Christian]

Bring them back and get your shoes.

[Kaylin]

Waller. That's a hotel. That's. That guy owns a hotel. Like, you just would assume that if

[Em]

you were born for it.

[Christine]

Yeah, he's born. My name's Holcomb Waller. You are. You are the owner of Waller?

[Em]

Yeah. Your name's interesting, but we have to make your first name way weirder than your last name.

[Christine]

Yeah, it's very like name.

[Em]

Yeah. Yeah, Very weird.

[Christine]

It's. I feel like there's a lot of people in the world who have two first names as their first and last name. You don't get a lot of two last names as the first.

[Christian]

That's true.

[Em]

It's a power move.

[Christine]

Anyway, that is the Klondike Building. I'm just gonna call it in St. Helens, Oregon. So that's, that's a quick little one. And I only made it super quick so that way the two of you could really. I know that you prepared some very extensive notes and I did not want to step on your toes here.

[Kaylin]

Too many, honestly, far too many.

[Em]

Talk about a throwback. First. First Leaf was like one of our first sponsors.

[Christine]

Truly. I, I saw it and I went, what?

[Em]

We're.

[Christine]

This is our ad.

[Em]

Firstly, my heart soared when that box arrived at my doorstep. We just love it. We love First Leaf. Thank you for being a sponsor for so long.

[Christine]

First Leaf delivers premium wine straight to our door every month. And you just answer a quick quiz about your preferences. And now they send personalized selections that you're guaranteed to love. There's no more guesswork, no more settling. And the best part is that you can also control the delivery schedule completely. So if you need wine by Friday, you can just adjust the timing. Or if you're going on vacation, you can skip it. I don't know why you would skip it. Just bring it with you on vacation. But if the bottle doesn't hit the mark, First Leaf has a 100% satisfaction guarantee. And they'll make it right.

[Em]

So they make some lovely wines too. And it comes with tasting notes and everything so you can like impress people and yourself also, which is really cool. Stop settling for wines that don't quite hit the mark. Head to try firstleaf.com drink to sign up and you'll get 50% off your first box plus free shipping for an entire year.

[Christine]

That's try firstleaf T R Y F I R S T l e a f.com drink try firstleaf.com drink okay.

[Em]

We love a woman founded brand. We love an independent woman founded brand that was like, yeah, we're gonna break the mold, okay? And that's why Honey Love is one of my favorite underwear brands. And bras as well. They have this cute crossover like situation. And sometimes I just walk around just in the underwear for fun. I don't do that with the ones I buy from Costco. I'm just gonna tell you that much. But the Honey Love ones, now those and the fact that they're like made by women, you know, it's not just some hodgety podgety old man deciding what I wear.

[Christine]

You know, just IG podgety old men are in charge of my underwires and my underwear.

[Em]

Get out of here.

[Christine]

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[Em]

Pinching, pulling. Oh, I'm so s it. I'm so glad something better exists. And with a couple weddings coming up, you know I gotta pull those bad boys together. Treat yourself to the most advanced bras and shapewear on the market. Use our exclusive link to save 20% off Honey [e-mail] Drink.

[Christine]

That's HoneyLove.com Drink and after your checkout, they'll ask where you heard about them. So please support our show and tell them that we sent you. Experience the new standard in comfort and support with Honey Love. Tell us all the fun of the nostalgia that is St. Helens organ.

[Kaylin]

Well, I think it's only fair and only fitting that em reveal the topic as this is your childhood haunt. This is the thing that was haunting you in childhood. One of several that you gave us options to talk about. And we were very excited to talk about this one.

[Christine]

Thank you. I was, I was very excited. You said, hmm, give me some nostalgic movies that you really liked.

[Em]

And I went, oh my gosh, please sit down.

[Christine]

Options are endless. But one of the first ones I requested was Halloween town.

[Christian]

I was gonna say St. Helens or Halloweentown.

[Kaylin]

That's where we're going today. That's where we're headed. Yeah, Halloweentown. You also mentioned double double toil in trouble. And any listeners of that's Pretty Dark will know that I am chomping, champing really at the bit to do Mary Kate and Ashley episode. So I was so stoked to see that. And then dual star is so tight lipped, they don't tell you anything. So I was like, if I can't do a dual star production with Em and Christine, Halloweentown's the next best thing.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christian]

Caitlin has shoehorned a Mary Kate and Ashley reference into every single episode.

[Kaylin]

Yeah, true. And you know, it has a compulsion. It's a sickness.

[Christian]

And I'm not mad about it because I grew up with older sisters. I'm the youngest of, I have two older sisters and I used to hang out with them and all their friends and we used to watch Mary Kate and Ashley movies at every sleepover. We had so, yeah, it was a perfect sleepover.

[Kaylin]

I had the education.

[Christine]

You putting a reference into every episode is actually why we put you on the network, so it was worth it.

[Kaylin]

That was the test. That was where all along it was riding on that. I'm really glad that we connected that way.

[Christine]

Before you start, I would like to have our audience also know that, Christine, this was your first time watching Halloweentown, which is so exciting. Welcome to the folds.

[Em]

It was a fucking delight. I was beside myself. I'm so happy. I'm just so happy. I just fucking loved it. That's all I have to say.

[Kaylin]

It's like if a spirit. Halloween became a cozy little town.

[Em]

And gave you, like, a hug.

[Kaylin]

Yeah, and gave you a hug.

[Em]

It was so cheer. Cheery. I just loved it.

[Christian]

Well, the way I described it was it's like Hocus Pocus set and Stars Hollow.

[Em]

Oh, man.

[Christine]

I think the best quote I've ever heard.

[Em]

That's a powerhouse.

[Christine]

100 correct.

[Christian]

All right, I'm signing off. You guys have fun.

[Kaylin]

That was a great contribution, Christian. We appreciate it. Before we do dive into Halloween town, though, I'll give kind of a brief idea of what our show is again, where. That's pretty dark. Podcast. It is more than just a rewatch podcast. The thing that Christian and I kind of found as we were just talking, you know, we've been at this for, like, five years now. We've been friends for a decade. And as we're talking about, like, what we grew up on and what we cared about, we kept realizing that we all felt like we watched these things on our VHS player, like, by ourselves or with our siblings, you know, but this was before any of us could connect and talk about what we were seeing.

[Christine]

That's such a good point.

[Kaylin]

So much of the media that we were consuming at the time, we are millennials, but obviously even Gen X and Gen Z, like, we were consuming this media, but it was very emotionally deep, we'll say. There was a lot of emotional depth to the things that we were seeing. And it's not like we talk about, like, the subliminal darkness or, like, what was darker or deeper. And we kept having these conversations, and we realized we just needed a place to talk about that from our childhood

[Christian]

because we're the last generation to fully experience, like, true disconnect from, you know, the social era, childhood, pre Internet, pre digital age and everything. So, yeah, I mean, such a good point to have a place to talk about. It has been, you know, bountiful to say.

[Kaylin]

That's amazing, because it's more than just, like, what was made. It's the why and the how. Like, the Don Bluth movies that made you cry constantly. Like, all dogs go to heaven and rescuers traumatizing.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Kaylin]

Things like Courageous Cowardly Dog, you know, that are just. Yeah. It's classic. And we grew up on it. And, like, what did it do to us and why? And nine times out of 10, we come into it feeling like, whoa, this was so heavy. Why did we watch it as kids? And we come out going, we're really better off for having watched that. Like, that taught us a lot. We grew from it. So it's like, you know, the cultural context.

[Em]

There's often taking lore decades later, like, now connecting over it, which is so cool. Like, didn't have the time at the time.

[Kaylin]

Yeah. It's commiserating, honestly. Oftentimes essentially commiserating. But it's kind of like we're taking the head off of the Scooby Doo monsters of that stuff that we watched when we were alone and everything that was, like, hiding in our imagination and in our closet and better understanding how they actually impacted us.

[Em]

Well, shared this yet. But the reason. When I watched Halloweentown, I remembered the reason I had never seen it is because I started it and I was too scared as a kid, and I never finished it. I was too scared. I was so scared of everything that, like, it just wasn't gonna happen.

[Christian]

I was, too, but I would watch everything, like, with my older sister.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christian]

We would laugh at it during the day, and then at night, I would,

[Em]

like, come back to bed.

[Christian]

I'd be too afraid to sleep, and I'd have to run to her room on the other side of the house and sleep in her room because I was too scared.

[Em]

You know, I was the older sister, but I was also.

[Christian]

So you had to be brave, but you weren't same.

[Em]

I wasn't.

[Christine]

Wow. I was an only child, so no one was telling me what was going on.

[Christian]

I just.

[Christine]

I heard at school I needed to watch this thing, and I went, okay,

[Em]

and let's do it.

[Christine]

I had to commit to it.

[Kaylin]

So whatever hit you, hit you.

[Christian]

Our. Our show, we tend to focus on children's media things that we grew up with. But it's the things that scared us as children that still continue to haunt us as adults that have stuck with us over time. And so we make.

[Kaylin]

And we dip back into, like, Pinocchio, like, older stuff, too. You know, like, things that. Older Willy Wonka, you know, that kind of stuff.

[Christian]

We covered Pinocchio the history of Pinocchio back to.

[Em]

Oh, man.

[Christian]

Back in the 1800s. WR these stories and everything.

[Christine]

I mean, I did not know the Pinocchio episode. I have to write that one.

[Em]

Me too. Actually.

[Christian]

We did it for Christmas.

[Kaylin]

There are so many layers of his. It's not just the, like, what was made, but, like, what were the creators thinking that made them make what they made to make us think how we think to bring us here today making the stuff that we make as a generation.

[Em]

Quick question. Have you covered the Brave Little Toaster Goes to Mars?

[Kaylin]

Well, we've covered the very toaster. We have not done Ghost to Mars.

[Em]

Yesterday, after I finished Halloween Town, I keep having this, so. This is so fucking insane. I'm so sorry, everybody. I'm just gonna say it, and then we can move on. It's insane.

[Christian]

Say it.

[Em]

I got Reiki two weeks ago. And while I was receiving Reiki for the first time in years, I had this sudden, like, flashback, and it was of all these balloons in outer space singing. And I was like, what the fuck?

[Christine]

It's like I was there yesterday.

[Em]

It almost, like, kept popping back into my head throughout the week. And then finally, I was like, that scene from the Brave Little Toaster Goes to Mars. Like, I don't know where. From the recesses of my subconscious.

[Kaylin]

That is incredible.

[Em]

Out. But then after I finished Halloween Town that came up as, like, recommended viewing, and I was like, I wonder if it really was in this movie. And I clicked it, and like, 10 minutes in, it's these balloons in outer space singing. And I'm, like, having this, like, weird existential crisis. Like, why is this.

[Kaylin]

That was just really stuffed in there.

[Em]

It must have, like, come out of my head. It was so strange. Anyway, I watched that and had a lot of weird, like, memories of how much those two movies kind of, like, disturbed me.

[Kaylin]

Also, a lot of people remember the clown. The clown scenes because it's a dream in that movie.

[Em]

Yes, the clown.

[Kaylin]

Yeah.

[Em]

I hadn't. Because I didn't watch the first one.

[Kaylin]

Sorry to bring it back.

[Em]

No, I'm like, oh, my God, the clown. I forgot about the clown. Oh, no.

[Christian]

We've never done a sequel yet.

[Em]

Okay, if we ever do that, you're

[Christian]

gonna have to come on the show.

[Kaylin]

You're gonna have to come.

[Em]

I really will say I watched it and I was like, okay. Aside from the fact that they call humans master, all the appliances call human master, which is, like, super. Not really. Didn't stand up, didn't hold up over time. But other than that, Like, I was like, it's pretty good. Watch.

[Christine]

Yeah, well, sorry, we're here for Halloween Town.

[Em]

Anyway, that's.

[Kaylin]

No, we needed to tangent to that because that's very important. Again, formative, and that's really what we're here to talk about. So part of what we do is we talk through, like, the production story. So I've got some brief stuff on that, and then we'll kind of dive into the plot of the movie and give all of your very gracious listeners a little taste of what it's like. That's pretty dark. And if at any point this doesn't sound fun to you, just let me know and we'll truncate it even further and speak

[Christine]

fast forward.

[Christian]

I love that.

[Kaylin]

Just, yeah, vaudeville hook. Just get me, get me out of here.

[Em]

And everything never gets.

[Christine]

I will say, as someone who's obsessed with fun facts, I don't think there's going to be a moment that I, I, I regret at all today.

[Kaylin]

So that's amazing. That helps. Truly, that does. But I'll start off again with a little bit of the production story, because the story of Halloweentown started not with like a grand studio vision. Nobody was like, imagining this happening to make money necessarily on the studio side. It was a kid who asked a question. So in 1991, we have Sherry Singer, who was the senior vice president of TV movies for Walt Disney Television, was assigned to collaborate with Steve White Entertainment. And this was a new company led by this television executive who had been at NBC before, like, striking out and creating his own company. They worked together as producers and they ended up falling in love and they got married in 1993. So it started on this, like, TV executive love story. And around that time, Steve had told Sheri so he had a daughter from previous relationship who asked him where all the creatures from Halloween go the rest of the year when it isn't Halloween. And Nightmare Before Christmas premiered in October of 1993. So that's probably what everyone is thinking. But she, this little girl did not have the benefit of knowing Jack Skellington yet. But this question that she asked her dad turned into a pitch and then a script, and then it was rejected several times by many different studios. They shopped it around for years and years. NBC passed on it, Disney Channel passed on it. But then there was sort of a turn in the tides because Disney Channel made Under wraps. I don't know if y' all are familiar with Under Wraps, the very first decomp.

[Christine]

Thank you.

[Kaylin]

Thank you.

[Christine]

I knew I don't know about under wraps.

[Kaylin]

I knew he would have it. But once they did that, they were like, oh, wait, turns out kids do love spooky stuff after all. What were we thinking? And so they circled back to this team who had this idea. And for whatever reason, it was not clear to me in my research, but the original, like, screenplay had been written with more of like an adult demographic focus. Like, it wasn't even written as a kid's movie, despite it being a question from a kid, which I thought was very strange. But once Disney Channel circled back, they kind of had it retooled for a child audience. Although the writer of the original screenplay left one little souvenir, which was that he named the Piper kids after his kids. So Marnie and Dylan and Sophie are named after his kids.

[Em]

Oh, and I even watching that was like, those are great names for three siblings.

[Kaylin]

They sound like kids in a 90s movie.

[Christine]

It does, yeah.

[Kaylin]

Then Disney Channel brought in director Dwayne Dunham. He, like, in his early career was editing for projects like Return of the Jedi, Blue Velvet, Twin Peaks, like in the 80s. And that's something else we love to do on our show is like, we see the creative voices that were behind like this, like, where did they come from and what were they? And then now it's Halloween town, you know what I mean? So they're bringing their vision in that like that 80s slant that like, focus into Halloween town. So those again, the layers are just all on top of each other. But he had previously directed Homeward Bound. Hate to even bring it up. Painful. Homeward bound trauma.

[Christian]

We're cover that one day.

[Em]

Oh, God, we're good luck.

[Kaylin]

We're going to get there. Yeah. I shudder at the thought.

[Christine]

But I recently made my partner watch it for the very first time because she was like, what are you talking about?

[Kaylin]

And I was like, did she cry the whole time?

[Christian]

Yeah. How did you not see it?

[Christine]

Oh, now she still cries anytime I just go, peter, I knew you would come down.

[Em]

You are so fucking evil.

[Christine]

He was just too old. He was just too old.

[Em]

Oh, geez.

[Christian]

Yeah, we watched that over and over.

[Kaylin]

Painful, painful. Yeah, but that's exactly why we're here, honestly. But after Halloweentown, here's more dcom lore. Dwayne Dunham went on to do several more dcoms. The 13th year, double teamed, right on track. Tiger Cruise. Now you see it. So these were all the same director. He became like a DCOM director.

[Christine]

Yeah, Slam dunk after slam dunk.

[Em]

Seriously. Damn that.

[Christian]

Yeah, but he didn't direct Luck of The Irish, which is my favorite.

[Em]

Interesting.

[Kaylin]

A great dcom because I didn't grow

[Christian]

up with Disney channels, so that's another one that I saw.

[Em]

I didn't either. I didn't discover until I was like 12 or something. It was horrible.

[Christine]

I have a fun fact about Luck of the Irish that kind of plays into Halloween Town.

[Christian]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Okay, do tell. In Halloween Town High, Halloweentown High, Wasn't that one of the movies?

[Kaylin]

Yes.

[Christine]

The same high school in that movie is the same as Luck of Irish.

[Christian]

Wow.

[Em]

Oh, like the filming location, is it.

[Kaylin]

I was gonna say it must be probably in la.

[Em]

I don't know.

[Christine]

All I know is I remember watching Luck of the Irish very recently and I was looking up fun facts and it said Halloween time.

[Kaylin]

I was like, the fun fact that I saw this St. Patrick's Day is that there's the scene where they're sitting at the Macs, like the big Mac computers, and they're in a rainbow. Like the colors are in the rainbow. And Ryan is at the. Like at the end of the rainbow.

[Christine]

At the end of the rainbow.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christian]

I never noticed that.

[Em]

Amazing.

[Kaylin]

Oh my God.

[Em]

How fun.

[Christine]

Very fun.

[Kaylin]

Two for one dcom. Fun fact. W. But anyway, they hooked Dwayne in by telling him that he would be working with a 20 to 30 million dollars budget. And if you have seen the film, you can probably guess that that's not what happened. It was closer to a $4 million budget, which is very different, but still obviously incredible for what they were able to do. They shot the entire movie in about 24 days in 1998, in and around St. Helens, like you mentioned. Em. They basically took over the whole main square of the town and turned it into Halloween town. So that's kind of why, like it does. Because they just. They just took over the whole like Stars Hollow like you said. Like here is this whole town square. Of course that's on a lot. But this was just a literal town functioning, existing. And they're like, you know what? We're just going to commandeer this space

[Em]

for how did they find that space?

[Kaylin]

Pretty cool. Great question. And I am not certain. There were several locations around St. Helens and it's. Let us know him.

[Christine]

I don't. I don't want to steal from you, but I think I have an answer. I just remember like the town recently experiencing like a volcano or something thing. And it was the. Because that the town was like pretty abandoned. And so they were so eager for people to.

[Kaylin]

Hey.

[Christine]

They were very excited for people to come in. Tourism. Yeah.

[Em]

Whoa.

[Kaylin]

And that really paid off because I was just going to say I'm not positive. That's amazing to hear, I didn't know but like they, they have filmed like that's a popular filming location now or at least somewhat because in addition to it being the filming location for Halloween Town, it was also the filming location for a lot of Twilight. Several different Twilight filming locations are right around the corner from all of these Halloween Town filming locations in St. Helens and they still have like a spirit of Halloweentown festival there like in October, I've never been but they. Kimberly J. Brown attends and last year Jackson Rathbone was there like Jasper Cullen, so I

[Christine]

have yet to go, but I'm fair, I follow Kimberly J. Brown on TikTok and she always films herself there and she apparently every year they do a pumpkin lighting ceremony in the main square where like they have a replica of the big pumpkin that they bring out and like the whole town lights it together.

[Kaylin]

It's very, it's incredible. Talisman is you have to

[Christian]

keep calabar from coming back.

[Em]

I was going to say, do they. Do you think they have a calabar every year that comes out like.

[Kaylin]

No, they should definitely have a guy in a top hat.

[Em]

I wonder if they're.

[Christine]

Well, because they every year invite Kimberly J. Brown there and she usually hosts the ceremony so I wonder if she like has to fight someone off, I don't know.

[Em]

So to your point, we all need

[Kaylin]

to go, let's just join there.

[Em]

Honestly, there's one way to find out, huh? We all need. Hello. We can expense it for work, right? Is that how that works?

[Christian]

Oh yeah, Write that off of my taxes.

[Kaylin]

Yes, I'm in, I'm down. Need no further convincing. There were several other like filming locations, one of which I know Eva had mentioned in the research, the Columbia Theater was kind of of prominent in Halloweentown. That's also got some haunted history to it. But this was all kind of done

[Christian]

in the same setting in the whole movie.

[Kaylin]

Absolutely, it becomes that for sure.

[Em]

It is scary.

[Christine]

That's probably where Christine was watching, I

[Em]

think Calabar's theater was probably much earlier than that, but I'd like to think it was at that scene.

[Christian]

Yeah, I want to go watch Halloween Town in that theater.

[Christine]

Oh, you know, they probably do that.

[Kaylin]

I was about to say it would be, it would be such a wasted opportunity.

[Em]

Agreed.

[Christine]

And they probably have so much money if they.

[Em]

In like every other seat.

[Christine]

Let's go.

[Kaylin]

Yeah. Storm of the Dwarves.

[Christian]

They have to stay when we find

[Christine]

something instead of A trailer, they should have the pre show of like the swirly portal and a guy comes out, you have to reenact the whole thing

[Kaylin]

when machines just in the whole atrium,

[Christian]

Such a good idea.

[Kaylin]

And speaking of Kimberly J. Brown, I need to get your opinion on this, Em, how upset were you about her recasting in the later Halloween town?

[Christine]

You didn't even have to finish the sentence, I.

[Em]

Okay, I didn't know that. And I find, find that extremely absurd because she was a star, like, to like, you look at her in that movie, I'm like, star power. And I, I went and followed her afterward and was like scrolling all the way through to like old Halloween towns that she hosted. I was like digging way into her, I'm like, what a delight.

[Christine]

I crush on her too.

[Em]

I also did back in the day, I remember same, I understand what it was, but I was like, like, I'm weirdly attached to that person, like, why

[Christine]

can't I stop looking at her?

[Em]

Why can't I stop thinking everywhere, even though I'm so scared of that, Be

[Kaylin]

a Cromwell witch, or do I want to be with Marie?

[Christine]

Do I want to marry a Cromwell witch? Yeah, exactly. But no, I. I remember when they recast and honestly, that's the reason I didn't watch Halloween 3, I was like,

[Kaylin]

they recast, Might as well boycott on.

[Christine]

She didn't, she didn't want to be recast either. I think she just got too old or something and they like couldn't come

[Kaylin]

up with it is literally on record, record that it. She was recast because they wanted somebody younger in, in the role, which do you think you're gonna pull the wool over? Like it had been like, what am I, an idiot? Seriously, Some of us may have aged out, but like, we're not dumb, we

[Em]

all crush on her, we recognize her.

[Christian]

To which I say make the character older if it's a problem.

[Kaylin]

Yeah, jump ahead if you want. How fucking my argument, My whole thing with this is that she was considered too old to play Marnie. Marnie, she is literally Marnie's age. She was 13 when she played the character of Marnie, she is Marnie, how is that? Yeah, how can you. How do you. I don't understand Hollywood, I don't know how you can Rubik's Cube your way out of saying that she's too old to play the character that she originally.

[Em]

They know nothing, these people know nothing.

[Christian]

So they don't know anything, they don't know anything.

[Christine]

I think they keep like all of her siblings, like the the everyone else came back. So her grown ass brother who had like a deep voice and a beard. By the end he was like, yeah, he was fine.

[Kaylin]

Fine. You're fine. That's good.

[Christine]

That's good.

[Christian]

I know. He, He's a man, so he can do no wrong. Wait, am I performing too much? Is that.

[Christine]

No, just right. Just exactly.

[Em]

Don't worry, we'll mute you when you're, when you're overdoing it.

[Christian]

That's what I was thinking is like her mom was the same actor, same actress, right? So. So she had to pretend to have a new. A different daughter. Like, she's the same daughter.

[Christine]

At the very least, they should have written in a storyline that like, oh, you know, she's become so powerful. They had to disguise her. Like.

[Kaylin]

Yeah, thing that irks me, like on sitcoms, when they don't address it. Fresh Prince may have addressed it when Vivian was recast, I think, like early on. And I think they made a joke. Like they said it.

[Christine]

That was, that was a master class world.

[Em]

Yes.

[Kaylin]

Fantastic. Because it was like, Morgan has been in Time out for a really long time or something.

[Christine]

And then they redid it. I don't know. I, I also watched the Girl Meets World, the Boy Meets World spin off. And they, they, they extra called out the fact that they not only recast her as one person, but two people. And they literally had both women acting in the scene as one sister. And they would go, hey, Morgan. And both of them would just wave.

[Christian]

That's funny.

[Christine]

Good for them. Like at least calling it out.

[Em]

Just be a little self aware.

[Christian]

Somebody has to do an episode on. Recast women, like in the roles.

[Em]

Yeah, that's interesting.

[Christian]

That's where Fuck Kevin or whatever the show is called.

[Kaylin]

Oh, I love that show.

[Christine]

What's it called?

[Kaylin]

Kevin. Kevin Can.

[Em]

Kevin Can.

[Christian]

Kevin can himself. That's the whole premise, right?

[Em]

It's. That is one of the best shows I think I've seen in recent years. Yeah, it's so.

[Christian]

It's good. It's good. But it comes from the idea that like.

[Kaylin]

And you jot it down.

[Christian]

It's like sitcoms.

[Em]

Absurd.

[Christian]

Recast.

[Kaylin]

Yeah.

[Em]

And it's like a sitcom, but not. Oh my God, it's so good.

[Christine]

Okay, perfect.

[Kaylin]

We go in so many directions, but one more direction we have to go in before we get into the plot of Halloween Town. Is that the. It's, you know, millennials must know this information. Mark Mothersbaugh, who is from Devo and also the brain behind Rugrats, did the score for Halloweentown Wait, what score? Oh, did the score mark Mothersb get out?

[Christine]

That's fun.

[Em]

Oh, cool.

[Kaylin]

Yeah. So if you hear like the Rugrats theme now every time you hear it, you can think of Halloween Town.

[Em]

I love that.

[Christine]

Fun, fun.

[Em]

And I bet you Em hears that theme song quite a lot.

[Christine]

Oh, I, I hear, I hear both of them in my head right now.

[Em]

Right now.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Kaylin]

I was talking to somebody the other day and I mean, it's not just because, you know, we talk about it on the podcast all the time, but I truly think so much of my world view came from Rugrats. Like the way that the adults interact with each other and the weird like, tongue in cheek and they're Dr. Lip Shits and they're just.

[Em]

You know what I mean?

[Kaylin]

Just Dr.

[Em]

Lip Shits, man.

[Kaylin]

I learned how grownups behave from watching that show and it's pretty accurate. It.

[Christine]

I often feel like stew pickles with the, with the pudding at 4am with

[Kaylin]

control of my life.

[Em]

It's so relatable.

[Christian]

And they're like younger than us, but they seem so much older.

[Kaylin]

Yeah, I think they're like 32 or something. Yeah. Stupid.

[Christine]

I just refuse to cringe that they would be like invited to a party at my house and we would all be the same age. Refuse to believe it.

[Kaylin]

Painful.

[Christian]

Yeah.

[Kaylin]

And really, Halloween Town is about that coming of age about feeling like you're ready for something. All that good stuff. Because basically the whole premise of this film is that a 13 year old girl is having a very relatable, very aggressive early teen crisis because she knows that there's something different about her. She feels stifled by her parent and she is absolutely convinced that the normal life that she has being like shoehorned into is a scam. And she's correct. She's fully correct about everything that she thinks and feels.

[Christine]

Yes.

[Kaylin]

She goes about it in an interesting way though. There is so much nostalgia in these opening scenes. There's the or hue that everything had in the 90s. And the wind was like whipping up the street, the glow. And there's a bunch of pop psychology happening in this one suburban house because this really precocious kid is trying to like outsmart her mom. And that's also a trope that we run into on our show all the time. Is just like, I don't think they knew how to write another type of kid, you know, in the 90s.

[Em]

Smart alley.

[Kaylin]

They're all way too smart. It's. We, we talked about it in Jumanji with Percy Dunn's Character, like they're, they're just way too smart for their own good. And I like that. That's who we want.

[Em]

The witty, like, callbacks and stuff. I'm all about that. Yeah.

[Christian]

Yeah.

[Kaylin]

Marnie's mom will not let her dress up for Halloween or any of her siblings. Not because of razor blades and apples or any kind of satanic panic, which is why most of my friends couldn't participate in Halloween as a kid. It has none of that overtone at all. She's just basically saying that you can't dress up. And she just refuses to tell Marnie why. She refuses to explain anything at all. And we eventually learn this is due to her own generational trauma. Being forced into like a witchy world that she didn't. Being forced into like a witchy world that she didn't choose. It's very much like a Troy Bolton, like. No, it's your dream dad.

[Em]

It's such a Troy Bolton. Oh my God.

[Kaylin]

And she just can't bring herself to explain any of this to Marnie. Like maybe not realizing or knowing if she's ready, like just not knowing where that line is. And Marnie is really pushing it. And I feel like that happens in most parent child relationships where there's this like, individuating and the parent. Like, I think the problems in that that come from when a parent takes that individuation as like a personal attack.

[Em]

Yes.

[Kaylin]

And. Or if the children lose sight of the like, love that's underneath the decisions and like why the parents doing what they're doing, like they both just kind of lose sight of each other's perspective and it gets really hairy. It does in this case for sure. And I love that it's just a dcom that's just like platforming that because we were all this age going through it and watching somebody going through it on the screen in a pretty loud way was really empowering and just like

[Em]

getting her like getting venting and like letting steam and like, I mean, not to get too into it, but like. Yeah. That I didn't have space to necessarily be that way. And I feel like it was such like a. It's such a emboldening or like.

[Kaylin]

Yeah.

[Em]

Validating on stage. Yeah. Or on, on screen.

[Kaylin]

All the above. And I was going to say that I was going to ask because I

[Christian]

was shut down immediately if I had any, any opinions on what was happening. I was just like, stop.

[Kaylin]

Just don't talk back.

[Christian]

Just do what you told. Like, yeah, you're being a smart ass. You know like, all that kind of stuff. It's like I'm just, I'm just being a person.

[Em]

Like, I just have questions. I'm confused.

[Kaylin]

Yeah.

[Christine]

And I wonder as, as I'm getting older and now I'm like, I can see like the parental side of things also. I'm like, I feel like it's a second chance to also experience the nostalgia, but from a different perspective and be

[Em]

like, so from the parent.

[Christine]

Yeah, you just wanted to protect your kid. But then on the flip side, the kid, like, doesn't feel hurt. And like, they know that they're smart enough to be able to probably have these conversations or they think they are, but the parent still sees them as a little kid. And like, it's.

[Em]

The parent hasn't reconciled it in themselves. So, like, they don't know how to handle it.

[Kaylin]

Yeah, yeah. Nobody's like, able to, like, compensate or adjust for the other perspective. And so everybody's just like, mad at each other. When in reality, like all parents, like all adults have been children. Children don't have the luxury of having been adults. So the parent has to be the one in that case to be like, you know, know what? I remember what that's like. And to try and step outside of themselves. But they're also doing the really hard job of like, parenting and keeping their kids alive and like, making this happen, you know, so it's a thankless job.

[Christian]

Being a parent is hard.

[Kaylin]

I say that all of this is a non parent, completely fully recognizing that it is a huge, crazy undertaking. And like we say on our show all the time, I think that everybody could benefit from just like, like you said, said, like looking at it from a different perspective, looking back, remembering how it felt for you.

[Christian]

That is something I talk about a lot is like, we're adults now, so we have to look at it from both perspectives. Just like you're saying M is like, now we're analyzing things in a very different way than we did 30 years ago. Yeah, it's, it's, it's tough. There's a lot, a lot of psychology

[Kaylin]

there with the added layer. And we're going to get to it in Halloween Town as well, that our parents maybe didn't go that extra mile.

[Em]

They maybe didn't do that, Stephanie, because

[Christian]

their nostalgia stuff is like Andy Griffith, you know, I mean, their stuff is

[Kaylin]

like completely different values.

[Christian]

We know best and we just tell everybody what to do.

[Christine]

And it's like, well, they were also, they were, they were raised to think that when they became parents that it was the, you know, I'm the boss, listen to me. But nowadays I feel like it's, it's a little more, you're expected to be open minded and actively communicative with, with your kid. And so I don't even know if the movie would be, if the script would be written the same way today.

[Em]

Right, Interesting point.

[Kaylin]

Probably not. And honestly, that's, this was like the edge of that. You know what I mean? This is the early 90s. There is that like flip in parenting psychology where, where they're like people are at least questioning it and then look at, you know, how far we've come 30 years later.

[Em]

You know, the most alarming thing is that after we finish this episode, I have like an hour to kind of take, take a beat, walk the dog, etc, and then I'm like, on to dinner. I think a lot of us can relate to that and a lot of people don't even have that extra hour built in. So I'm very fortunate. But that being said, Hungry Root has been a huge, huge savior in our household. Custom deliveries for us that really fit our, our lifestyle and our budget and Leona's very particular food taste. So I am thankful for that.

[Christine]

Smoothies, snacks, sweets, salad kits, ready to eat meals and even supplements. It's easy to find options that fit your taste and nutritional goals. Hungry Root also holds all of its food to high standards. So it screens out over 200 additives, including high fructose corn syrup, artificial sweeteners, preservatives. So you are getting quality food and you have quite a variety to pick from. If you've got picky eaters like Leona, it's just, it's very wonderful to have it. It really is on your side.

[Em]

It's like a personal grocery shopper, you know, it's actually very convenient. You're going to love hunger as much as we do. For a limited time, get 40 off your first order plus get a free item in every month box for life. Just go to hungryroot.com drink and use code drink.

[Christine]

It's hungryroot.com drink code drink to get 40% off your first box and a free item of your choice for life.

[Kaylin]

So honestly, I wasn't even sure if I was going to mention this, but I feel like it's a valuable allegory because of the way that like Gwen is so like tight lipped about how she feels and what she's thinking she's not sharing with her kid. I feel like it illustrates the inefficacy of ignorance or like abstinence based education if you will, like behavior. Not going to forget it, she's not

[Em]

going to drop it.

[Kaylin]

Yeah, you want to protect your kids so you don't tell them about magic.

[Christine]

Then it makes them curious or like

[Kaylin]

sex or drugs or whatever thing.

[Em]

Totally.

[Christian]

And but all the commercials are so juicy and there's so much liquid, there's

[Kaylin]

so much to understand in this life, there's so much to figure out. And yeah, if your kid is going to step into that reality eventually, which by the way they all will. Is it not better to like give it armor foundational rather than ignoring it? Because I know in schools or families are like regions of the country, we're from Alabama. It's presented as if like sex education for example will lead to an increase in sexual behavior.

[Em]

Right.

[Kaylin]

And that kind of fear based thinking has been used over decades to like shape policy and curriculum and actual science and like research shows the exact opposite. It's. If you, if you educate kids, if you give them tools, if you give them information, they're going to use those tools and that information to make better decisions. And to me it feels like common sense.

[Em]

I was going to say what a shocking, what a shocking thing to do learn.

[Christine]

That's such a good point that it absolutely mirrors that of just like, well, I'm not going to tell you and then I'm going to be surprised when you're curious about it cuz I didn't

[Em]

inform you when you act out or whatever.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Kaylin]

And in Marnie's case, it's something inherent within her, you know, she's like, I feel pretty magical, mom. I don't know, like this just feels like it's me. And she's like, I wish you can

[Em]

equate to hormones or any other thing that's happening that's out of control.

[Christine]

I'm turning 13 soon and all of a sudden these, these feelings in my

[Em]

body are telling me I'm Marnie and I'm scared of the movie she's in but I keep staring at her. That was my own problem anyway. But yeah, we've all been there.

[Kaylin]

We've all been there. And ignorance is also always far more easily manipulated than knowledge. So interesting you know what you're doing, it's going to be less, you know, imagine if Marnie had fallen in with the wrong crowd in Halloween town.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Kaylin]

Imagine if she was just a minion of calabar. That's true.

[Christian]

You'd hate to see it far too

[Kaylin]

easy just because she didn't know.

[Christian]

I think this is a sticking point in our own episode because we've actually covered this before. We did a full.

[Kaylin]

We did it for Halloween. We did like a big.

[Christian]

Yeah, but we. We tend to cover Halloween movies in October for, like, spooky season. We do like a big.

[Kaylin]

Because we're doing spooky stuff all the time. Yeah.

[Christian]

Hey, but we're halfway to Halloween.

[Em]

We're halfway right now.

[Christian]

This is like the perfect time to do this.

[Em]

My daughter's birthday is October 1st, so every April Fool's Day, I'm like, we're. We're halfway to spooky season.

[Christian]

Yeah. But like, growing up, I went to. So I grew up Baptist at Chur Church.

[Em]

Cool.

[Christian]

But I went to a church.

[Kaylin]

You were baptized at church and you were something else.

[Christian]

And when I wasn't at either one, I wasn't either one. But, yeah, I kept. You know, because of all the media, every show, everything had like a sex education moment in school. And I kept waiting for that time for that.

[Kaylin]

You were like, when's my time?

[Christian]

Watch any videos? We never learned anything about any. Anything. And it was very. It was.

[Em]

We learned really interesting stuff about how Jesus was involved when you got pregnant. So I was like, oh, yeah. Oh, that's even worse. Yeah, it's sort of like. I didn't.

[Christine]

It's always a threesome when Jesus is involved.

[Em]

It's true. It's true. I didn't get a lack of information. I got, like, completely, like, all buttoned out. Wrong information.

[Christine]

You were very informed, just in a. Very wrong.

[Em]

Very misinformed. Yeah.

[Christian]

That kind of works, though, because we were always. We couldn't have school dances because they were sinful. Dancing with the opposite sex was sinful.

[Em]

Deeply.

[Christian]

They never talked about dancing with the same sex because that was just unspeakable. But they always said, you have to leave room for the Holy Spirit.

[Christine]

Of course.

[Christian]

You know, so you're kind of, you know, dancing. The Holy Spirit's there when you're having sex. Jesus is there.

[Em]

So it's an orgy.

[Christian]

Escalate all the way around.

[Christine]

I'm just throwing a fun fact in because I. I only learned it not too long ago, but so I recently started taking queer line dancing on the weekends. And one of the. I didn't realize that there was, like, such a queer history to line dancing, but it was because dancing with the same sex was so sinful that a bunch of queer people started agreeing to go line dancing together. So they were. Technically. You wouldn't know if they were dancing together by themselves.

[Kaylin]

Favorite Fact of the episode.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Kaylin]

And they don't even line dance in Halloween.

[Christine]

Line dancing is actually very, very gay, so.

[Kaylin]

Wow. Very good.

[Em]

I love that.

[Kaylin]

I saw they're having a line dancing, like a free line dancing class, like in. In our town tomorrow. And I was literally considering it.

[Em]

And you know what? My local bookstore, which is like super, like very progressive and. And they do a lot of queer events, they're having a queer line dancing event. So I. I guess maybe that's catching on, that fact. That's so cool. I just put that together.

[Christine]

I had no idea. And then someone said it. They. They said it in class and you're like, well, as you all know, it's very gay. It's very G room. What are you talking about? Had no idea. So that's.

[Christian]

I know a lot of people who don't know that.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Kaylin]

I can't wait to tell everyone.

[Christine]

I know.

[Christian]

I can't wait to share this.

[Christine]

It's like, oh, my God, I can't tell.

[Christian]

Yeah, blow some minds because, yeah, we did.

[Kaylin]

Like, they're the only kind of dancing. It was like, you know, the Cupid shuffle, the cha cha slide, like there were certain line dances and for the opposite, like, because you're not close together, those were the only ones we were allowed to do. So I can't wait to tell everyone. I know.

[Em]

That's a fun fact.

[Kaylin]

You have the gays to thank for that. Wow.

[Christine]

Just. Just contributing where I can, so.

[Kaylin]

And speaking of the gays, I mean, we don't know for sure, but. Enter Grandma Aggie, who is a beautiful, wonderful, incredible icon of a Cromwell witch. She shows up unannounced, she's got a bag of candy, she's got some cursed artifacts, and she has no respect at all for Gwen's, like, no Halloween, no

[Christine]

magic, she has no time for that.

[Kaylin]

And I respect that movie, frankly, I do.

[Em]

And also, no respect.

[Kaylin]

She gets to the house and within minutes she has them in Halloween costumes, which wasn't allowed previously, and she has them reading this bedtime story and she's like, by the way, witches are real. Just. Just so you know.

[Christine]

And what are the odds? This one in the book looks exactly

[Kaylin]

like you look at, look at here. Fun fact, Kimberly J. Brown. Got to keep that prop, I'm pretty sure. Fun sweet because it was modeled after her, which is awesome fun. But.

[Christian]

But what did the new actress get when she was the cast?

[Kaylin]

Sarah Paxton. Stick to your. Stick to your mermaid and stick to your aquamarine.

[Christine]

They should have. They should have that book in the in the one where Sarah Paxton is it and just her face like paper like just glued

[Christian]

just to show how ridiculous it is. Yeah, yeah.

[Em]

How insane.

[Kaylin]

If there is ever a Halloween, Halloween Town reboot I really hope they have heard our commentary.

[Christine]

Yes, it needs to be like a

[Christian]

dcom spoof like you know there's like scary movie like spoo, you know oh my God, can we make that satire

[Kaylin]

movie A satire declaration?

[Christine]

That'd be hysterical. I think that like how scary movie is about all the scary movies out

[Kaylin]

there you got a trademark it Christine

[Christine]

they should do with ecom scaring I

[Em]

would except Disney's really a little bit scary I think in, in a real way I feel like they'll probably destroy us.

[Kaylin]

That's true. You're worried I guess we can't TM5

[Em]

the bandwidth for it.

[Kaylin]

There are ways they can hire us,

[Christian]

hire a good lawyer, they can hire

[Kaylin]

us is really what we're asking Disney. We don't mean we're going to do it without you.

[Em]

We would never do it without.

[Kaylin]

We never do it without you. We want you to do it with

[Em]

we're on your side

[Kaylin]

Because Halloweentown is a magical place where lots of different sorts of people live together in peace, in harmony and can't we do the same? Can't we do the same Utopia? Aggie says that all of these spooky creatures that call Halloween Town home are just like everyone else, some are kind, some are mean and it's just all in the way that they use their magic and she says sometimes the slimiest, raunchiest, ugliest little monsters turn out to be the nicest and that's just true, I just love that it's a universal truth, love it.

[Christian]

And that was my, my, my glow up arc as well.

[Em]

You're like that's how they describe me

[Kaylin]

back in the day, that's how I feel. But through this conversation and another with Gwen, Aggie basically reveals that Marnie is reaching this magical expiration date because on her 13th Halloween if she doesn't start her her training to be a Cromwell witch then she loses her power forever. So Gwen was almost there, no pressure at all.

[Christine]

It's a little like reverse puberty, it's kind of like you have until 13 and.

[Kaylin]

And then it stops.

[Christian]

Can you imagine if you just lost.

[Kaylin]

That's so sad. Hours was losing it. Gwen was within hours of having victorious.

[Christine]

Well no wonder she showed up, she super flew, there she went. I gotta figure we have to do

[Kaylin]

something now, we gotta fix this and she sure tried and of course Marnie overhears all this and so she is like, I'm going to another dimension ton. That's what's going to happen because it's now or never. So she and Dylan and Sophie, they all sneak out and they follow Aggie onto this flying bus. There is no Ms. Frizzle to be found, I checked. But we're in Halloweentown now and this is where we're getting to see all of these creatures of Halloween. There's witches, goblins, skeletons, vampires, the whole roster of spirit Halloween costumes essentially. But they've got jobs, they've got an economy, like things are popping in Halloweentown

[Christian]

if only just go.

[Kaylin]

Aggie is like explaining to the kids like how Halloweentown came to be and basically said that the people that started human Halloween imitated the traditions of these creatures like mortal see, mortal do. And she says this was actually how the kids parents met because Gwen crashed a mortal Halloween party. So this witch is like dying to live her mortal life and she crashes a mortal Halloween party party. So can you imagine if you're the dad, if you're her, her husband, you're meeting a witch at a Halloween party, cute, good costume, whatever. And then you, you like, the next day you find out, oh wait, that's

[Em]

not a costume, it wasn't a costume.

[Christine]

That's like waking up, the next thing going, what did I do? It's like, no, but like really cool, like in a really cool way.

[Kaylin]

Really cool way, in a magical way.

[Em]

Oh boy, wow.

[Kaylin]

And basically they decided to. Humans and monsters didn't mix because humans were the real monsters, if you can imagine, they marginalized these monsters, they made it hard for them to exist and so they kind of made it miserable in return. They're retaliating. And this retaliation on the monsters part was turning them evil, which Aggie is very clear and makes sure to say, which they were not evil, that was not who they were. So they decided to just distance themselves, very healthy, take some space. And the human created a whole new world which is Halloweentown. And she said this distance allowed the monsters to like settle down and have homes and children's and jobs and an expert bowling league and I don't know,

[Christine]

every, every community has one.

[Kaylin]

So all of them, and I don't know if it's sad or sweet that when they are like safe and like not oppressed and not being hunted for sport, all any of these magical metaphysical creatures actually wanted in the first place or aspired to have was a human life.

[Em]

Life. That's all they wanted, right oh, yeah. Like a house and a family in a bowling league. Oh, my God.

[Kaylin]

That's all they wanted. All these goblins and ghouls.

[Em]

Whoa.

[Kaylin]

But that normal life did not last because now people are acting strange. There's this undercurrent of fear. Aggie says that the residents are changing. They're becoming hostile or disappearing. Not unlike America right now, though it's not usually the same neighbors that are becoming hostile as the ones who are disappearing.

[Em]

Right. Keep that slightly different allegory. Yes. Wow.

[Kaylin]

Very different.

[Christine]

Very profound, what you just said.

[Kaylin]

But she suspects that there is some kind of dark force behind this change. And Aggie needs help to combat it. Especially from Gwen, who has now fully rejected all of her magical identity. So there's this generational guilt trip. She tries to put it on Gwen that she needs help. And Gwen says that there are plenty of other witches that could do this. And Aggie basically says, like, you know how it is today. Nobody wants to get involved. And that made me take pause because I'm like, hey, hey. Everybody get involved, by the way. Get involved.

[Em]

Whoa. That just had, like, a ripple effect in my. Yeah, yeah.

[Kaylin]

Whoa. Nobody. Nobody wants to fight a fight that's not theirs. But you have to recognize that, like, first they came for the.

[Em]

Exactly.

[Kaylin]

Next, they came for the goblins. Then they came for the witches at the end of the line. Like, you're in there somewhere. Everybody that you care about is in there somewhere now.

[Christian]

But it will be your fight.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Kaylin]

Which makes it your fight now is how I feel. Right?

[Christine]

I mean, you're exactly talking to the very right audience. So we're with you.

[Kaylin]

That's the hope. That's the hope. And us. Us, too.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christian]

I wore my band the Fascist shirt for this.

[Em]

Oh, I love that. It's so whimsical.

[Kaylin]

That was a birthday gift, wasn't it? Did I get you, like, a birthday or Christmas?

[Em]

Oh, I love that. I love that little whimsical book on it.

[Christian]

I know

[Em]

bad it's going about that day.

[Kaylin]

He lives more without fascists. Imagine. Yeah, but Gwen. Gwen wanted to have a normal life. Right? We talked about that earlier. That was really where she was going. She wanted to be free of whatever, like, danger or chaos that she associates with this magical world. And she felt like she could protect her kids from that if she could just keep them guessing until after their 13th birthdays. But she didn't tell them the truth. And now the truth is showing up anyway, like it does for all of us.

[Christine]

Yeah. I mean, imagine finding out on your 14th birthday. You could have been a witch in the element.

[Kaylin]

Sad.

[Christine]

Oh my God.

[Christian]

Stuck here.

[Kaylin]

Just miss. What do you mean?

[Christine]

And as a. In college they're like, I don't talk to my mom, I really can't get into it. But it's like, it's really complicated. It happened in high school. She basically.

[Kaylin]

Yeah, yeah, I can't go there.

[Em]

Can't go there.

[Christine]

You wouldn't understand. It's like a really like inside insular family thing.

[Kaylin]

Family thing.

[Em]

Super niche. Yeah.

[Kaylin]

So Marnie takes it upon herself because her mom is, you know, not going to engage. She wants to help her grandmother and you know, her, her people, her kind. And that involves activating this ancient talisman. They say it's Merlin's talisman, which is a nice touch. I think it's this ancient thing, but it needs a very specific witch's brew which is made from scratch. Not the boxed witch's brew that Aggie tried out in the microwave that had like the bubble. Bubble toilet settings on the microwave. My favorite joke in the whole movie, of course.

[Em]

So good.

[Kaylin]

And then they run around Halloween town collecting all these ingredients. They go to get werewolf, like locks of hair from werewolf from a salon. They get ghost sweat from asana, which don't. You can't think too hard about that. Like on our show you think too hard about a lot of things and sometimes we just have to let it be.

[Christine]

I think since childhood I've thought too hard about that when I was that one. Wow, the ghost is rough.

[Kaylin]

Why does a ghost need to be a sonic?

[Christian]

First we said ghost tears.

[Kaylin]

Yeah, ghost tears would have been better. Ghosts are sweat, sad make as a ghost cry.

[Em]

And that's like good. Yeah, the sweat thing was weird, especially because he like lost all that weight. And then like, did you see that at the end? Andy's like, oh, my pants are so. I'm like, I like that. They gave everybody kind of a bit. Like I wrote in my notes, like, oh, I love that every like the kind of. Oh, sorry. The off the wall characters kind of all got like their moment and I loved that. Like, yeah, the barber, like this cute hair salon werewolf had his like lines. I was like, I love all these speaking roles. But then with that damn ghost in this, I was like, okay, it's getting weirder by the second and it's like a bunch of children with this like presumably naked ghost.

[Kaylin]

That's what I was thinking. I was like, why are we just standing around with this guy?

[Em]

They're like trying to like, like touch him.

[Christine]

Shockingly of everything based in Halloweentown, that's the one thing I just can't logically justify. Everything else made sense to me.

[Em]

Yeah. That one was a kind of weird offbeat one, but anyway, I agree.

[Kaylin]

And it had like a similar tone, like to. I thought of Casper, but I thought of like the uncles, like Casper meets Wendy Casper where they're just all of the ghosts are kind of bumble. And that's the kind of world where a ghost would go to a sauna, I guess. Right?

[Em]

Yes. The vibe.

[Kaylin]

And it wouldn't feel so like off, but they call it. There's so much that was honest about it that the punch of that was just not. It didn't.

[Em]

It was odd. It felt like kind of like slapstick. Yeah.

[Christine]

It felt like it was a clip from back when the show was supposed to be darker and.

[Em]

And it was supposed to have some

[Kaylin]

like more grown up, more adult jokes.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Kaylin]

And instead what that results in is a bunch of kids standing there waiting for a ghost to sweat. I don't like it.

[Em]

Yeah, just don't like it. Just on the cut track, all of

[Kaylin]

these moments, this movie just keeps threading in. These little warnings. There are these characters that like, know too much. Like they know stuff they shouldn't know and people are like acting off and there's this sense that they're being watched. And there's this guy, Luke, he's a local bad boy. He's especially suspicious because he's going between like flirting with Marnie and these weird, vague threats. At one point he calls himself a big cheese, which is not a move I would recommend upon approach.

[Em]

Like it didn't work.

[Kaylin]

Wouldn't go there.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Kaylin]

This is our second datum. So I can, I feel like I can now say that I'm a big cheese. That should be impressive.

[Christine]

Now it's safe place to say that. Yeah.

[Kaylin]

Yeah. But we made it here, you know, we earned it. You know,

[Em]

it's the payoff. You know, big cheese, big cheese around here.

[Kaylin]

When Marnie rejects him, like any like burgeoning maladaptive misogynist should be rejected, he immediately channels this attraction into anger.

[Em]

It was like, wow, okay. Really written out plainly for us there.

[Kaylin]

Uh huh.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Kaylin]

It was like, this is gonna be important, by the way, because he knows some very powerful creatures, which I'm sure a lot of, a lot of folks are hearing stuff like that on the dating apps.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Kaylin]

You. You haven't heard the last of me. You know, that kind of energy, just

[Christine]

mafioso, Not a good look.

[Em]

Like you crossed Me now. And it's like, whoa, what are you say. No, no.

[Kaylin]

Yeah, right. But meanwhile, Gwen shows up in Halloween town, maybe product of like a. Do you know where. You're kidding. Kids are psa. And she's like, oh, you know what? I don't.

[Christine]

I know just where those little twerps went.

[Em]

Immediately.

[Kaylin]

Yeah, immediately she recognized she's watching, like, infomercial.

[Em]

Like, the world's worst infomercials. And just like, she was.

[Kaylin]

Yeah, she was eating a candy that.

[Em]

I do feel really like I relate to that because that is what I do when Leona goes to bed and I'm like, oh, my God, moms never change, I guess.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Kaylin]

Eat candy and the little tiny kitchen tv. And she's just.

[Em]

Love that.

[Kaylin]

For her, it's so good. The glow. That. That's a 90s glow, too. You know what I mean? Like, the kitchen tv. I didn't even have one, but, like, I know what that. I know what that feels like.

[Em]

I know it's magical.

[Kaylin]

And speaking of a glow, we next find ourselves at Calabar's propaganda theater. Aggie is here, Gwyn is here. And they end up having to confront this dark force, which we learn is Calabar later. And they lose. Which was also surprising, I guess, watching it as a kid, because there's this moment of, oh, no. Calabar freezes Aggie and Gwyn, and they're stuck there staring at the screen, eyes forever fixed.

[Em]

Which.

[Kaylin]

That's another, like, allegorical thing that we might get to. I don't know. They're in a theater, locked into this propaganda that they're watching to brainwash them into something that they aren't. These creatures from Halloween Town. And now Aggie and Gwen.

[Christine]

It's very on the nose. Very on the nose.

[Kaylin]

Very on the nose. And it is another, like, foundational 90s kids film convention, which is basically dismiss the adults. Like, remove the safety net. Yeah.

[Em]

They're no longer. They're not here to help you anymore.

[Kaylin]

They are going to exit stage left. And now you have to handle it. Like, you have to. You have to grow. We talked to DJ McHale, who was the creator of Are you afraid of the dark? On our show. And he made a point to mention that where he was like, really the beginning, the question in every episode was, how do we get rid of the parents? Like, where do we put them?

[Christine]

Sure.

[Kaylin]

So that the kids can grow.

[Em]

Such a good point.

[Christian]

Yeah. Because. Because the kids have to realize that they are resourceful, that they have.

[Em]

They are the main character. Yeah.

[Christian]

What they need to, you know, be.

[Em]

Yeah. And that's like an ancient trope. Harry Potter even. Not that that's ancient, but I mean, you know, going back and back like Harry Potter, all the young adult.

[Christian]

Well also they're always on their own. Yeah.

[Christine]

I feel like at least in this movie, it also plays into. By the end, not only do they feel more that they have autonomy and that they can be taken seriously, but at the end of Halloween Town, the parents finally respect the children's opinions and. Oh, you, I should not look at you as a little kid anymore. I can rely on you and your, your own information. Yeah, yeah.

[Kaylin]

Like I should respect you more. Like. Yeah, there's this. Yeah, there's respect that gets earned like through these journeys. Like the hero's journey. It's the hero's journey, but like in a tiny little like familial way. You know, it's also funny because they also kind of dilute this moment. Like Aggie, whenever they're struck with this magic. Magic, Aggie says the words, we'll be all right. It's just an evil spell that freezes us. We're not dead, by the way.

[Em]

We're not just gonna find.

[Kaylin]

She like, she could have looked at the camera. Like that was for me.

[Em]

That was for kids like me. Yeah. Who's so scared and was like, let's

[Christine]

just pretend we're not really dead. We just look at.

[Kaylin]

Yeah, yeah. We're just closing down on tv.

[Em]

It's not real. That's what I needed.

[Kaylin]

It was really, it was heavy handed in a way that most ecommerce. I don't feel like they were so much in that way. But it was also, it became funny to me looking back at it.

[Christine]

Well, I think early on because I think it was like one of the first like 5D comms out there. So I think they didn't have a real rule system yet on like how. How dark.

[Kaylin]

Yeah. And I mean that stayed a question mark I feel like for a long time.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Christian]

That's true of much the media that we cover. It's like this was the first time they were doing a lot of this stuff.

[Kaylin]

There wasn't. Yeah. There was not a yardstick, there was not a ruler. They had to kind of make it up as they went along and then like hope they didn't go too far. And then that's what we find often is that you kind of did. But it might have turned out okay.

[Christian]

Yeah. For like a lot of TV in that era there, there wasn't really like the TV rating system yet they actually invented that. I think they invented it for Power Rangers is that we talk about about it.

[Em]

And I was.

[Christian]

We talked about that in our Power Rangers episode. It was around that time. So there was nothing like really they were just trusting these like kids networks, you know, kid friendly programming. They were just like, oh, that's for kids. So.

[Em]

Well, that's why I feel like I got so traumatized because my parents like it says it's for kids. Here you go.

[Kaylin]

Same.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Kaylin]

That is pretty much could be the tagline of our whole show.

[Em]

Yeah. And I would be like, what?

[Christian]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, my, my ultra religious aunt, thank God, gave me a DVD of the Goonies when I was. I guess it was a VHS technically way back when.

[Kaylin]

Yeah.

[Christian]

But she had no idea what it was about.

[Em]

Oh, I love that.

[Kaylin]

This has like. This has kids on the COVID Here you go.

[Em]

This is a bunch of little boys situation.

[Christian]

Saw it on tv.

[Kaylin]

That's how Labyrinth was for me at my grandparents house. It was like, this looks like fantasy kids. There's puppets in here. That's for kids.

[Christine]

David Bowie's Crouch Trauma again.

[Kaylin]

Little did they know.

[Em]

God, God.

[Kaylin]

Little did they know. Yeah, that was.

[Em]

Do you know where your kids are? Do you know what they're watching on the Disney Channel? Because it's scary, right?

[Kaylin]

And speaking of some of that, like I like also the implication we get Dylan, Marnie and Sophie, they're all now off to brew the witches brew on their own. Right. This is now like the turning point where it's up to them. But there's this implication because Sofie keeps showing up as like the most witchy. Like she's just able. She has the instinct and she, she knows what she's doing. Even more so than Marnie because like Marnie does remember the spell to like turn on the talisman. But sorry's like so in her head,

[Em]

you know, trying to do it. And I feel like Sophie's just like, oh, this old thing?

[Christine]

Yeah. I wonder if it's because Sophie would one day be like the most powerful or if they were like hinting at that at the time or if it was just because she was younger and more connected to that and there it is.

[Kaylin]

Yeah, that's, that's the implication that I like is that she's more in touch with her powers because she's younger. And I think that that's a trope that we see across a lot of things. Like she, she hasn't. She spent less time internalizing the world which is telling her no, or telling her she can't or whatever, like unwittingly having the unusual traits socialized out, you know?

[Em]

Well, there's a line where Marnie even tells her grandma, like, oh, I'm no one special, and it's like, well, of course, if you're thinking that way, it's going to take some shifting of your thinking, but yeah, Sophie's kind of like,

[Christine]

I also know, like, that's the one of the main reasons why they think children are able to have more experiences with the paranormal, because they haven't been told that that's an imaginary friend yet, or they have, they haven't started believing

[Christian]

that yet, yeah, yeah, they're still open

[Kaylin]

to the possibility, yeah, right, yeah, because, yeah, they just don't have the. All of the other experience and all of the other things that are telling them something else, they can just know what they feel like, what they feel, what?

[Christian]

Their third eye hasn't been gouged out

[Kaylin]

yet, Their eyes are blinded, that could be a whole topic in and of itself, because we. I. You all talk about just different paranormal stuff on your show, I always get lost in the comment sections of, like, my kid was 2 years old and was telling me that they used to be an airline pilot, or like, I get so, like, sucked into that stuff, like, what do they know? What do they remember? They know so much more than we do, so they activate the talisman and they head for the final confrontation, this is time for the big baddy. And of course, Calabar is back, this mayor that's kind of. Of been skulking around the whole time, he's too charming, too smooth, he used to know Gwen, we get some glimpses into that, he has this like, middle distant gaze about her, which clearly has become a problem, he's been waiting years to give this monologue, you could tell by the top hat he was ready

[Christine]

to perform, Also, you had your whole life to decide whether or not to bring the top hat that day, and you went, no, no, that's gonna really

[Em]

seal the top hat, and you went, I'm not even gonna question that decision, yeah, I'm just gonna do it, it's

[Christine]

like, why would I even.

[Kaylin]

This is who I am. Yep, Where. Where else would I be but here?

[Em]

Such a good point, It's a top

[Kaylin]

hat, he actually went so hard, the actor did during these scenes, that he lost his voice and like, completely up the production schedule, like, they had to change the schedule because he yelled so

[Em]

much, and he was like, too good of a villain, too good of A

[Kaylin]

villain, and he's like, there's the wind machine, and he's like, you know, being suspended and there's all this stuff.

[Em]

Holy shit.

[Kaylin]

Screaming for days on end. But yeah, Calabar was out for blood because he believes that Halloween Town's creatures were unfairly marginalized by humans and they deserve to reclaim their world by force and eliminate the offending humans, I agree that they shouldn't have been marginalized, and I guess Aggie's whole thing was like, they kind of started going at each other rather than it being like a one, you know, kind of overpowering the other, and the creatures that had the power to create a new world just said, hey, we'll just go to humans, that seems, you know, relatively simple, but that's not how Calabar remembers it, and I'm afraid that something that's coloring his memory or understanding of the situation is that he is still hung up on Gwen choosing a human over him, so this big power trip is basically just the work of jealousy, ego and fragile

[Em]

masculinity, it's like nothing changes.

[Christian]

Yeah.

[Em]

You know, nothing.

[Kaylin]

Nothing new under the sun, we didn't

[Christine]

even have to come up with a whimsical physical answer to that, it was

[Em]

just literally, he got. He got rejected by his crush or whatever. Holy shit. Like, decades ago.

[Christian]

Like, oh, my God, Very incel energy,

[Christine]

I was literally gonna say, that's some incel shit right there.

[Kaylin]

Yeah. Oh, and I just, like.

[Em]

Quick side note, because I'm the only one who's gonna bring this up, so, sorry, but there is a weird comparison here, or similarity to the Brave Little Toaster Goes to Mars, because the plot of that film is that all the appliances on Mars feel rejected by humanity and. And want to destroy humanity and take over for themselves, and then the Brave Little Toaster is like, no, humans are good. And I'm like, well, I wouldn't go that far.

[Christine]

Like, you're a toaster. Shut the fuck up. You're a toaster.

[Em]

What do you know? Actually, the toaster becomes the supreme leader, It's a whole thing, wow. They go after. They're like, we're going to blow up the Earth. And I'm like, no wonder I was scared as a kid, I'm like, what do you mean the refrigerator is going to blow me up? Like, wants to kill me?

[Christine]

To walk around thinking your whole kitchen, like, resents you, is wanting to kill

[Em]

you, and they feeling like the first

[Kaylin]

Brave Little Toaster gave you empathy for appliances, you're like, oh, no, the port that's right, vacuum. Oh no, the air conditioner got so upset that he had a blanket panic attack and and died. Like. Yeah, you get all this empathy damaging. That movie is just like. No, they actually want to hurt you.

[Em]

It's like a double sided thing. It's. Wow, you really feel for them. Well, guess what, they're gonna you up and it's like, oh my God. Wow.

[Kaylin]

So really it was a one, two punch with those shows because they pulled us into a false sense of security.

[Em]

That's right.

[Kaylin]

Never mind.

[Em]

Talk about a life lesson, man.

[Christine]

They just wanted to test our how quickly they can manipulate us to feel.

[Em]

Well, I hope they're happy cuz I really haven't recovered.

[Christine]

So.

[Kaylin]

Yeah, now I'm still scared of the toaster to this day too.

[Em]

Me too.

[Christine]

I'm still scared of a vacuum cleaner that he was so mean for no reason.

[Kaylin]

Oh, he was. And the air conditioner. Yeah.

[Em]

Remember that radio that was like, ah, I'm all so super cool. Transatlantic radio.

[Christine]

I'm so sorry. But I was convinced the radio was the. The first gay man I ever experienced. That was the sassiest, unnecessarily sassy man I'd ever met in my life.

[Em]

He was sassy.

[Kaylin]

I love it. Okay, sorry.

[Em]

Oh, sorry. Did I derail us by talking about the brave little Mars?

[Kaylin]

I love that we were talking to Mars together about brave little Toaster and Hollow. That makes my soul happy.

[Christine]

Perfect.

[Kaylin]

But Marnie tries to use the talisman and she fails. The first time she gets knocked down, there's this, oh, no, all is lost, which we get a fake out like we often do and love it like this. And then she has this realization that feels very inevitable because magic is about more than spells and training. It's about belief, believing in it. Aggie says earlier in the film, which I really liked, the way she described magic.

[Em]

Yes.

[Kaylin]

She said magic is knowing what you want and then letting yourself have it.

[Em]

She said it's really very simple. You just want. Have to want something. Yeah. And let yourself have it. And I just thought that was so profound. And then when they brought it back I was like, oh, beautiful.

[Christine]

Which I feel like a lot of it now. I feel like in today's world a lot of magic is manifestation work.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

And I feel like whether or not that's because of Halloween Town, I feel like it's interesting that a lot of the kids who watch Halloween Town grew up and those who are now involved in magic are like, oh, it's manifestation

[Em]

is the whether you have a crush on Marnie. Wanted to be Marnie. Now we're all doing witchcraft and that's the result.

[Kaylin]

Where we landed, I mean, that's where, where it brought us. And yeah, I personally don't want to be anywhere else.

[Christine]

You did it.

[Kaylin]

Marnie's like, hey, chocolate bar, you better give the talisman back or you're in big trouble. She's like mouthing like, using her powers as a 13 year old for good, you know what I mean? This is the sass that we need. She rallies her family together. Even Dylan, who stops citing science textbooks because he's had this whole actually kind of vibe for the whole time. He realizes that he too is a warlock.

[Christine]

He has some internalized hatred towards his own kind. I, I don't know what's going on there.

[Kaylin]

Yeah, yes. He's definitely been, been socialized in a way that makes him.

[Em]

I think he also has little brother syndrome because I feel like my little brother and I always bickered like that. And whether he believed me or not, he'd be like, that's stupid to. Whatever I did and said, I think it was just kind of our to be with siblings. Yeah, yeah.

[Kaylin]

He says at one point, like, Marnie's running off and he like, it's like a classic middle child thing because he's like, it's always the troublemakers that get the attention or something like that. Yeah, there's so much of that in this.

[Em]

I had to admit to myself, I saw myself in him a lot more than I thought because I am always the one who's like, well, it's probably just because the thing is, the window was open. Oh, well, it's probably. And so like, I'm like, oh, I'm more like him than I think I am. Like, I want to be more like Marnie. But yeah, I did see myself. And then when he got some magic powers at the end, I was like, oh, that's so fun that he got to be part of it too.

[Kaylin]

It's great because, I mean, in all of us there's a little bit of money, there's a little bit of Dylan, like, there's. We've got that energy. And I liked that they were calling it out. Like that was the. Yeah, they kept saying it out loud. And when first watch it, like when I watched it back as a grown up, I was like, this is all really loud. You know, they're saying it really plainly, but then I'm like, this was for kids at a time when people weren't really talking like that out loud. Yeah, you Know, we kind of take it for granted now, you know?

[Em]

Yeah.

[Kaylin]

But that's. It was, it was a new, A new voice, that. Pop Psychology Night, we talked about it in Jumanji where they're marginalizing this character because she has a therapist and she's doing all this work and she's like neurotic and panic and whatever. That was really the 90s picture of psychology. And this is like the kids are psychoanalyzing the grown ups, which softens it and.

[Em]

Yes.

[Kaylin]

I don't know.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

And you're more likely to listen to it if it's another kid. True.

[Kaylin]

Right. Helping you make sense of the world. Yeah, for sure. So in this moment, they combine their power. They're humming, it's. It's. They've really got the, like, meditation going on and all together they. They. Their power and the talisman combine such that Calabar is defeated, the spell and everything's good, everybody's restored. Marnie apologizes for being like an emotional 13 year old with a point. So, you know, I mean, apologize for maybe the way you said it, not necessarily what you said.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Kaylin]

In that case, Gwen apologizes for hiding the truth and like, underestimating Marnie and Aggie's like, great, we're a coven now. Everything is awesome, like, can do no wrong. And there's also this moment with Luke, who admits that he made bad choices for shallow reasons because he had agreed to like, be Calabar's minion in exchange for improving his goblin looks. So he's a goblin that turned into.

[Em]

So he's an insecure male. So whatever you said earlier, so far

[Christine]

I've yet to find a. A man who is assured of himself.

[Kaylin]

He. He also was the voice of. I should probably check that in my notes before I say it. I don't know, I'd have to look at my bigger group of notes. But he was the voice of Arnold and. Hey, Arnold for a while. Yeah. This kid. Same kid. And so when I found that out, I was like so much.

[Christine]

I think he was the first Arnold.

[Christian]

That means he was the second or third.

[Kaylin]

I know, Lane Torren.

[Christian]

Lane Torren was the first.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Kaylin]

And then he was the second Arnold after that.

[Em]

Wow.

[Kaylin]

But yeah, so Marnie has this moment with him where she's like, you know, we get it. Like, like he's done this. It's. It's relatable, honestly, like, he just wanted. He's 13 and wanted to be like. But like, wants to look better, wants to impress and you know, made. Made the wrong Friends along the way.

[Christine]

He just wants to be the big cheese.

[Kaylin]

Just wants to be the big cheese. His quest to be the big cheese. And Marnie gives him a kiss on the cheek that does not turn him back into a prince. Because that's the only trope that we aren't doing today.

[Em]

Right, Right. I do love that. For us, that would have been kind of a.

[Kaylin]

And then this crowd of, like, grateful, cheering Halloween Town citizens sees them off in the bus. And Gwen asks Aggie to babysit on Thursday nights, which is her way of, like, asking Aggie to live with them. And so they're going to combine the worlds. And Aggie, like, accepts this offer very quickly. For somebody who is, like, uprooting her life.

[Em]

Years.

[Kaylin]

She's been like a fixture in this town for 200 years and she's just like, nah, I'm gonna go with the grandkids. Peace out. I'll see you.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

To a different dimension. I guess.

[Christine]

I. I guess that was its own trope of, like, oh, well, one of the parents, okay. The grandparent in this case was away and not paying any attention to the family, and then the other one had to stay and, like, become the full time parent.

[Kaylin]

Right.

[Christine]

Whereas now we're now at the end, like, oh, we've been reminded that family is the most important thing and we

[Kaylin]

got to stick together. Yeah. There's like generational reconciliation, like, across three generations all at the same time.

[Christian]

But you can have that in Halloween Town.

[Christine]

That's what I'm saying.

[Kaylin]

Yeah, that's. Yeah, that's my argument. Why would, like, Marnie wouldn't want to live in Halloween Town? Are you kidding?

[Christine]

Imagine finally discovering Halloween Town and that your grandma is, like, one of the most powerful people there and you just saved their middle school.

[Christian]

Let's go home.

[Christine]

Yeah. Time for eighth grade tomorrow.

[Em]

You're gonna get homecoming queen every year for the rest of your.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Kaylin]

She would be the most popular kid in the town if she stayed in Halloween Town, but no.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Christian]

And then we have.

[Kaylin]

She's gonna have to go back to immortal world where nobody knows. Nobody knows who she is at all.

[Christine]

Wow.

[Kaylin]

But their bus soars off into the clouds just like the car in Greece. And that's the end of Halloween Town.

[Em]

Just like Grace.

[Kaylin]

Yeah, but that's the thing that the movie lands on. It's a very Disney Channel very, like, pointed way of doing it. But not everything has to be either or. Like, that's the takeaway. You don't have to reject where you come from to build a new life. You don't have to stay small to stay safe. You don't have to be normal to belong.

[Christine]

You can sing and play basketball.

[Kaylin]

You can sing and play basketball. You can do both. Nobody's gonna punish you for doing both, except, you know, all the kids at school, but that's another story.

[Em]

Well, someone will, but you just gotta get over it.

[Kaylin]

Yeah, this movie is just such like a cozy way of saying that identity isn't something that you can bury without consequence. And if you know that there's something true about you that's bigger or stranger or more you than what you've been allowed to explore in the past, you have to choose that at some point and it's gonna pay off.

[Christine]

That's a great, great way to put it.

[Em]

Love that takeaway. I wanna watch it again tonight.

[Christine]

I I. One of my favorite things about it, I think, I think Kimberly J. Brent has talked about it on her TikTok or somewhere, but she did a at some point, I've heard it. Where out of all the props that she kept, she said that she got to keep her like, witch, witchy dress, and that Debbie Reynolds also kept her witchy dress, and Debbie Reynolds used to answer the door for trick or treaters in her dress. And so then when she died, Kimberly J. Brown started doing it in her dress.

[Kaylin]

Oh my, I'm gonna cry. Oh my God. God, that's amazing.

[Christine]

And also, I think Kimberly J. Brown has an Etsy now. Like she like sells Halloween Town Etsy stuff.

[Em]

Oh, she also does cameos, I found out. Cameo, she does cameos too.

[Christine]

Fun.

[Kaylin]

No, I was just gonna say we need to talk to Kimberly J. Brown, Like I need her opinions on all.

[Em]

I know, I bet she has some very interesting insight.

[Christine]

Yeah, no, for sure. Have you? You should also tonight maybe Christine watch Halloween Town too.

[Em]

See, now, now we're talking.

[Kaylin]

But she's in that one, Is that the third one?

[Christine]

Calabar's Revenge is the. I thought that was the second one.

[Kaylin]

Maybe it is, I thought it was. Yeah, I want to say there are four and I want to say Halloween Town High is the fourth is still

[Christine]

Kimberly, it's still Kimberly in Halloween Town too.

[Em]

Okay, I want to, I'll watch that, I'll watch that and then I'll watch the original Brave Little Toaster.

[Christine]

Well, like, fun fact for you though, Christine, the next one is the other main character and it ends up being her future husband in real life.

[Kaylin]

That's right.

[Em]

Oh, stalking them.

[Christine]

So they met on at Halloween Town.

[Em]

I didn't know that. Oh my Gosh, there's so much beautiful lore here. I'm so happy. Thank you guys for introducing me to such a beautiful world cinematic universe.

[Kaylin]

Thank you for having us. Thank you for letting us. Thank you for letting us give a little taste of, like, what we do all the time. And thank you for your paranormal story that coincides with. With Halloween.

[Em]

What a weird coinky dink.

[Christine]

That was an Eva original to lead you in, but thank you for coming on. But also, it was very fun to talk about something that I love so much from my childhood, but in an adult way. Like, you really brought some very deep, wonderful points of. I would not sit here and think about myself.

[Em]

I love it.

[Kaylin]

Thanks.

[Christine]

Well done.

[Kaylin]

That's very kind. I love the point about magic, and I think that's even taken a step further because it's. It's like, figure out who you are and then let yourself be that person. And this movie is just such a great 10 out of 10. I don't know. This does a great job with it. And to be able to look at it now, like, in 2026, through this lens, all of the oppression, everything that's happening, and recognize that this is the message that we were getting as kids in the 90s. And let's keep that in media, and

[Em]

it still holds up. Yeah.

[Christine]

It's also horrifying that the warning signs were always there then and no one listened. It seems none of the important people

[Kaylin]

listened, at least just us.

[Em]

And hopefully all of you all out there.

[Christine]

Just us.

[Kaylin]

We're all in this together, you know, just like Troy.

[Christine]

Just. I mean, just like Troy. I hope that's the. The moral that you learn at the end of each of your episodes that every movie is basically Troy Bolton discovering

[Kaylin]

he can do it all far more often than not. That is the yourself. Yeah, you can. You can always tell your dad that it's his dream, not yours.

[Christine]

But in song.

[Em]

I do often. But in song.

[Kaylin]

In song, preferably.

[Em]

Wow. Thank you so much both for coming on. Can you give people a little. A little teaser tag? They can find you and listen to your show?

[Kaylin]

Absolutely. You want me to take it? Christian, how do you feel?

[Christian]

Yeah, go ahead. You got this. You're doing great.

[Kaylin]

You can find us at thatsprettydarkpodcast. We're on all the podcast platforms. You can find us on instagramdarkpodcast. We are part of parapods now, which is an incredible place to be. We love that. All of these ideas, like, all of this that we put into our show, all of the research, all the folklore, all the history, all the layers of everything. We knew that parapods would be the right home for that because of everything that Em and co, Christine and all of the incredible shows on parapods are doing with their shows. It's all about community, finding community. Like I am getting really especially extra cheesy now, but like we are all in this together. The thing that we say at that's pretty dark is you're never really alone. And it's sort of a spooky tone but at the same time it's us finding out that we weren't alone in all these things that we were thinking and feeling as kids and that there is true like magic and power in that when we can all come together as grown ups and hopefully do things better and differently. So yeah, find us, come check us out, be with us. We would love to have you. And again, we both have. Just, I mean, for 10 years at this point, you guys are now you're in 10 years. Like I remember driving to work, listening too. And that's why we drank. Both of you, like driving to my corporate job 10 years ago, telling Christian, like, oh, you should listen to this episode. They covered this thing. Like we were literally listening to you guys in. In 2017. Ish. 18.

[Em]

Oh God, that's crazy.

[Christian]

Oh yeah.

[Kaylin]

And to be here now, like I was panicking all day just in a sense of like this is almost derealization. Like where am I and what am I doing?

[Em]

Don't dissociate because I get to talk

[Kaylin]

to Em and Christine today. So yeah, we're thrilled. We can't wait for more.

[Christian]

And yeah, I've told other people this, but I get to tell you guys now that I did listen to you on Kaelyn's recommendation, but I was working on a movie in like Biloxi and I just needed something new to like get me through the month I was about to have. I believe I don't. It wasn't during COVID It was. I don't know when it was.

[Kaylin]

I don't know. But I feel and I know I was listening. Pre covered.

[Christian]

Yeah, but I finally did listen to you guys and I was like, I want to be in the room doing what they're doing. I want to hang out.

[Em]

That's all we ever wanted.

[Kaylin]

Like talk about manifesting energy.

[Christian]

And then somewhere along the way we were like, let's start a podcast.

[Em]

Summoned reality. That's so cool. See, it's magic.

[Christine]

I mean it was literally, if you first believe it, believe it.

[Em]

And then all you have to do is want something and then let yourself have.

[Kaylin]

It's real.

[Em]

It's real. Panic attack, like the brain.

[Kaylin]

Thank you for what you've built and maintained. Thank you for what you do every day. Because you were bringing, like, joy to my, you know, corporate job and commute. I know you're doing that for so many other people. And, yeah, it's.

[Em]

Well, it was all in an effort to do it for ourselves. And then we were so excited that anybody else wanted to be a part of it.

[Kaylin]

And that's exactly how we felt.

[Em]

Really.

[Kaylin]

Just like, we just have to talk about this. We'll see if anybody wants to listen. And I can't believe that you all wanted to listen.

[Em]

Yes. And more. So now I want to go listen to that. I'm going to watch Brave Little Toaster and then listen to the episode to make sure I didn't miss any huge, dark, heavy, heavy things.

[Kaylin]

Real heavy. Yeah, I think it's just existential dread. Straight. It is straight up.

[Em]

I think it's going to, like, open, open a lot of conversations with my therapist.

[Kaylin]

You know, that's what we're here for, this whole show.

[Em]

I love that triggering left and right.

[Christine]

Thank you both for coming. That's. You said very sweet things, but no, you're. You have a wonderful show. I hope everyone goes and listens to it. This was definitely, like, a very great taste into what you guys do.

[Em]

Yes, absolutely.

[Kaylin]

And we look forward. We're going to have you all on our show as well.

[Em]

Yes.

[Kaylin]

We're not sure when and how it's all coming out.

[Em]

It was going to be.

[Christian]

Speaking of talking to your therapist.

[Em]

Right. It's going to be about my trauma watching the Ring when I was far too, too young, as in my own opinion, I was scared of Halloween town. And then I watched the Ring. So just to give you an idea of, like, how badly it went for me, psychically, psychologically. Yeah. And we're gonna talk about that. But now I'm like, oh, my God, I have so many fucking movies that I don't. Whatever anybody wants to talk about. I'm ready to hop on the show.

[Christine]

And part two of the crossover will be very fun to hear the two of you talk about some really horrific things. I mean, Kaitlyn and I were very lucky that we got to talk about a haunted house and then witches. But it sounds. Sounds like, yeah, I'm sorry, Christine.

[Kaylin]

And I'm not heavy hitting.

[Christine]

Should I watch it?

[Kaylin]

She turned it into something more heavy hitting, but, oh, boy. Nobody was definitely gonna be heavier.

[Christian]

And darker than we we usually go, I think because it's ring.

[Em]

Why did I say that? I don't know.

[Christian]

But hey, it does fit. It's perfect. Because it's a haunted VHS tape.

[Kaylin]

Yep.

[Christine]

Yeah, it does work.

[Kaylin]

More nostalgic than that.

[Em]

Good point.

[Christine]

It works for both of our shows very well.

[Christian]

It's nostalgic. It's nostalgic. I can't wait.

[Christine]

Well, thank you all for, for coming on. And we'll see you on the other half of our crossover.

[Kaylin]

We'll see you on that flip side. We can't wait. Thanks again. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, you're never really alone.

[Christian]

Never really alone.

[Kaylin]

Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same Premium Wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities. So do like I did and have

[Em]

one of your assistant's assistants switch you

[Kaylin]

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[Em]

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[Kaylin]

next chapter in healthcare starts at Carrington College's School of Nursing in Portland. Join us for our open house on Tuesday, January 13th from 4 to 7pm you'll tour our campus, see live demos,

[Em]

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[Kaylin]

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[Em]

Take the first step toward your nursing career. Save your spot now at Carrington Edu Events.

[Kaylin]

For information on program outcomes, visit carrington. Edu Sci Fi.