E486 Bisexual Muscle Tanks and a Mother Goose Ghost

Summary

And That's Why We Drink | Episode 486

Title: Bisexual Muscle Tanks and a Mother Goose Ghost
Hosts: Christine Schiefer & Em Schulz
Original Release: June 14, 2026

Episode Overview

This episode of "And That's Why We Drink" is a perfect blend of queer joy, true crime, and the supernatural—delivered with the hosts’ signature irreverent, conversational style. The show celebrates Pride Month, muses about personal fashion trends (hello, bisexual muscle tanks and NPR crop tops), and features two distinct stories: Em’s paranormal deep-dive into the haunted Malahide Castle in Ireland, followed by Christine’s true crime tale of the so-called "Gemini Twins," notorious mob killers from Brooklyn. Along the way, the hosts reflect candidly on sobriety, nostalgia, niche jokes, and the weirdly cyclical nature of gay-coded fashion.

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Major Discussion Points & Insights

1. Pride Month & Personal Updates

00:00–16:00

• Fashion & Identity: The duo riff on their "bisexual" fashion choices, with NPR crop tops and muscle tees as newly iconic. Pride energy is high, helped by birthday-adjacent Gemini vibes.
  • “By the way, NPR crop top, it gives bisexual. So happy pride, everybody.” (Em, 08:20)
• Location, Location: Christine comments on Kentucky’s affordability vs. LA.
• Drinking, Sobriety, and Nostalgia: Christine shares her journey with sobriety and how ditching alcohol has brought her teenage interests—like Arizona Iced Tea—back to the forefront. Em (who doesn’t drink) bonds over this reclamation of adolescent vices.
  • “Quitting drinking has brought me back to a lot of my teenage interests… I’m the prodigal.” (Christine, 11:18)
• Mental Health Shout-Out: Both emphasize the importance of medication routines, and invite listeners to “take your meds.”
  • “Everybody please take your meds.” (Em, 12:43)

2. Birthday Adventures & The Mayor Max Story

16:17–20:22

• Em’s Birthday Trip: Allison (Em’s partner) arranges a surprise birthday trip to Idyllwild, CA, ending in a meet-and-greet with Mayor Max—the town’s famous golden retriever in a cowboy hat.
  • “Mayor Max was in his cowboy hat and his bib, his little bandana said Mayor Max.” (Em, 15:33)
• Themed Motel Antics: They stay at Hicksville Pines, a 420-friendly, themed motel described as a “bud and breakfast,” replete with weed-themed perks and room keys that come with complimentary pot.
  • “When you get there... they also give you complimentary pot. And they were like, wait, what? She literally was like, oh, I forgot your weed. And just handed us a bunch of weed.” (Em, 18:08)
• Roadside Attractions: Visits also include the original McDonald’s and a glass museum (“not a single celery vase in that glass museum…”).

3. Tangents: Fashion, Coming Out Signs, and Nostalgic Faux Pas

20:25–36:59

• Queer-coded Fashion as Generational Memory: Reflection on Birkenstocks, patchwork shorts, double-polo shirts, and cargo capris as Sapphic/queer signifiers in the early 2000s.
  • “The current generation who’s bringing [Birkenstocks] back doesn’t understand that it was the only way we could out ourselves back then. Now everyone just wears them.” (Em, 33:55)
• Niche Jokes & Social Awkwardness: Christine recounts failed attempts at niche humor (e.g., referencing The Sims in a mobster context and J.Jill, the women’s clothing store).
  • “Never apologize for being too niche.” (Christine, quoting Blaze’s friend, 31:53)
• Parental Nostalgia: Discussion of being forced to shop at “the mom stores” as kids.

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4. Main Paranormal Story: Malahide Castle (Ireland)

36:32–80:07

Background & History (36:32–49:36)

• The Talbot Legacy: The Talbot family held Malahide Castle for nearly 800 years. Only an 11-year break during the English Civil War interrupted their ownership.
  • “Their...ownership of the property makes the Talbot family one of, if not the longest, continual landowning families in Ireland.” (Em, 27:42)
• Notorious Interlude (1649–1660): Miles Corbett occupies the castle post-Cromwell, criminalizes Catholicism, and is executed post-Restoration (via the grisly “hanged, drawn, and quartered” method).

Notable Hauntings & Ghosts (50:17–80:07)

• General Activity: Classic haunted castle phenomena—doors slamming, voices, shadows, cold spots, etc.
• **Ghosts at Malahide Castle (with memorable descriptions):
  • Miles Corbett: Appears in armor, then collapses into four bloody pieces—mirroring his historical execution. (51:31)
    • “Before he vanishes, he collapses to the ground into four parts.” (Em, 51:31)
  • Lady Maud Plunkett & Husbands: Lady Maud, the “Mother Goose ghost,” haunts the halls, sometimes seen fighting (to the death and beyond) with her third husband, the judge. Lord Galtram (her first fiancé, who died on their wedding day) is also a ghost, sometimes groaning and pointing to his stab wound—possibly due to both heartbreak and actual pain.
  • The Mysterious White Lady: An unidentified woman who steps out of her painting, further blurring lore between Mod and herself. (65:09)
  • Puck the Jester: The family’s comedic jester and watchman, possibly murdered for falling in love with a political prisoner, now a mischievous poltergeist. Said to appear in photos, pull pranks, and protect (never harm) the Talbots. His ghost caused Lizzo to lose her phone on tour—classic trickster energy. (77:00)
• Other Oddities: A monk, mysterious piano music, women holding hands in the gardens (Happy Pride!), and a creepy crouching man. (76:46)
• Would the Hosts Ghost-hunt There? Both are creeped out by castles’ cavernous nature and bloody history. Christine:
  • “I would be a little freaked out. I think it’s a little too big scale for me.” (79:43)
• Top Quote:
  • “He’s an original ghost, because people see him in his military armor walking around the castle. But before he vanishes, he collapses to the ground into four parts, as if he was just quartered.” (Em, 51:31)

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5. Christine Teases Future Yappy Hour & the Stepmom’s Bear Story

21:10–21:57

• Christine foreshadows an upcoming Patreon bonus where she’ll pull up actual archived news articles about her stepmom buying a bear from a catalog as a child—a notorious running AGWWD inside joke.

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6. Main True Crime Story: The Gemini Twins

84:22–133:32

Overview (84:22–89:41)

• Not Actually Geminis: Despite the moniker, neither Anthony Senter (Aries) nor Joseph Testa (Aquarius) are Geminis. Their “twin” nickname comes from their tight, codependent bond and their hangout at the Gemini Lounge.

Rise to Infamy (89:41–102:05)

• Mob Roots: Both grow up in Canarsie, Brooklyn, early childhood trauma, and quick descent into auto theft and organized crime.
• Breaking Bad: Their expertise in auto theft, butchery, and connections to key mobsters (e.g., Roy DeMeo, the Gambino and Lucchese families) sets the stage for their shocking future crimes.

The Gemini Method (102:45–115:20)

• Body Disposal Ritual:
  • Victims are lured to the Gemini Lounge, killed with a suppressed pistol (headshot, towel to contain blood).
  • Immediate stabbing through the heart to prevent blood spray.
  • Corpse bled dry in the bathtub (butcher skills in play).
  • Members often perform the task in their underwear to avoid soiling their clothes.
  • Dismemberment on a plastic swimming pool liner. Body parts are boxed and discarded at a local landfill with mob connections.
  • Early victims sometimes ended up in local supermarkets’ trash compactors.
  • “Crew members frequently executed this process in their underwear. Now, that part feels like Gemini to me.” (Christine, 110:30)
  • “This was just how you butcher an animal, probably…” (Christine, 109:15)
• No body, no crime is the guiding principle.

Power Moves, Betrayal, & Downfall (116:38–133:05)

• Violence Escalates: Numerous contract killings—including of their own mob boss, Roy DeMeo ("the most violent crew ever prosecuted in federal court," per the Assistant US Attorney).
• Mob Politics: Endless double-crosses, including the murder of their introducer, and eventually, their boss.
• Trial & Sentencing: Massive RICO case encompasses much of the DeMeo crew. Both men convicted of racketeering and multiple murders, sentenced to life plus 20 years. Both eventually get parole, with Joseph dying in 2026.
• Personal Tie: Em reveals a wild family story: their (now deceased) grandfather actually witnessed the street assassination of Paul Castellano—a notorious mob hit tied to this web of violence.
  • “I remember hearing about that and... Not like they were in on it, but... hid behind a car and witnessed it.” (Em, 125:48)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On the beauty/trouble of fashion staples:
  • “Do you ever do the double-collar shirt? … A little bit absurd.” (Christine, 35:47)
• On reclaiming nostalgia in sobriety:
  • “I have found that quitting drinking has brought me back to a lot of my teenage interests.” (Christine, 11:18)
• On haunted castle logistics:
  • “If the house is a thousand years old and there’s so much more room for other ghosts… it feels really eerie.” (Em, 79:22)
• On niche jokes bombing:
  • “Never apologize for being too niche.” (Christine, quoting Blaze’s friend, 31:53)
• On the “twin” aspect of the killers:
  • “They became known as the Gemini twins because they were, like, fanatically loyal to each other. … almost like they had, like, a twin bond. Like it was written in the stars.” (Christine, 93:33)
• On double-crossing in true crime:
  • “Is that not the most Gemini thing you can do? … Don’t they say Geminis are two-faced?” (Em, 122:13)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:00–16:00 – Pride banter, sobriety, and nostalgia
• 16:17–20:22 – Em’s meet-and-greet with Mayor Max; weed-themed motel escapades
• 20:25–36:59 – Tangents: fashion, coming out, and niche jokes
• 36:32–80:07 – Em’s Haunted Malahide Castle: history and ghosts
• 80:07–84:20 – Reflection and segue between stories
• 84:22–133:32 – Christine’s Gemini Twins mob crime saga

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Tone & Style

The episode is conversational, silly, and deeply personal, even as it covers dark historical crimes and tragedies. The hosts balance creepy and bleak with playful self-deprecation, nostalgia, LGBTQ+ joy, and their unmatched skill at riffing on the weirdness of pop culture, fashion, and true crime tropes.

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If You Missed the Episode...

You’ll come away understanding the gist of the two stories (haunted Irish castle with a gory history and ghostly jester; and the codependent, notorious Gemini mob twins with their equally gruesome disposal methods), plus a hearty dose of Pride, self-reflection, and the podcast’s beloved, digressive sense of queer fun.

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That’s why we drink!

Transcript

[Christine]

I would like everyone to know that I've been waiting to do this Zazzle ad for days because Leona wants to do a daisy duck Minnie Mouse birthday. So I went on Zazzle and not only did I get her a bunch of fun stuff like invitations for said birthday, I know it's months away, but I was like, well, this is perfect. They have so many options for cardstock. I even got her her own customizable little stamp with her name on it so she can send thank you notes. I basically prepped for the whole party using Zazzle. It was so easy. I even got her this. Look at this. This is the cutest thing ever. So it's a little daisy duck blanket with her name on it. Okay. And it was customizable. Came super fast. And then because I couldn't resist getting Blaze a little something too, I got us this little notepad for the refrigerator. It has Geo, Junie and Mooney on the top with a nice ombre sunset effect. Kind of like word art style magnetic pad for the fridge so that Blaze can stock up on the Twizzlers and Goldfish. That leaves Leona and I request on a daily basis. Zazzle is a custom marketplace where you can take basically any product. So a mug, a blanket, a tote bag, a card, a phone case, and make it mean something. It's super fun to shop on. You're not buying a gift, you're making one. Over 30 million customers have trusted Zazzle with their most important gifts, and yours is next. Right now, save 25% on your first order at zazzle. Com. That's 25% savings on your first order at Zazzle. Com. Go make something amazing. Zazzle.com so good, so good, so good. New markdowns up to 70% off are at Nordstrom rack stores. Now stock up and save big on shoes, tops, dresses, accessories, and more must haves for summer. Join the nordiclub to unlock exclusive discounts. Shop new arrivals first and more. Plus, buy online and pick up at your favorite rack store for free. Great brands, great prices. That's why you rack. So the other day I was participating in a social event which was already kind of like beyond my capabilities. And then I remembered that I had batch THC mints. They're called micro mints in my bag. And I was like, these are perfect because they're just like a little bit of sublingual CBD thc and then they kind of boost your mood. They like, kind of help you get through whatever you're getting through. Batch has some really, really awesome stuff. I really like their products. They. I mean, micro mints are one thing, but I'm more about like the THC gummies. As you can imagine, I kind of go straight to the top, you know?

[Em]

Right. That'll make you feel all lazy.

[Christine]

Daisy feels more like me, myself, you know?

[Em]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So they dissolve under your tongue for fast absorption and are built to be a sustainable daily ritual. So it. You can think of them as like. Like you said, replacing that end of day glass of wine without, like, the. The fog the next day.

[Christine]

Yeah, without the unfortunate side effects.

[Em]

Yes, yes, yes. And it's microdose at 5mg THC with full SPECT CBD added, which smooths out the experience. And the CBD to THC ratio is intentional. It creates the entourage effect, not just like a THC spike. It's really good stuff.

[Christine]

Right now, batch is offering 30% off site wide. And yes, that applies to subscriptions too, so you can lock in that discount on your monthly supply.

[Em]

Go to hello batch.com drink and use code drink at checkout. Welcome to.

[Christine]

And that's why we drink, starring Christine

[Em]

and the court jester.

[Christine]

M. Wow.

[Em]

I only say court jester because I. I just finished up looking at my notes and a court jester is involved. So they're very on. Really very on my mind right now.

[Christine]

Well, I was thinking about the notion of clowns. Anyway.

[Em]

That works.

[Christine]

Yeah. And I was. That works too. I was thinking of, like, Geminis being, like, funny, but kind of like that's not all they are, you know?

[Em]

Thank you. What did you say last time? We contain multitudes.

[Christine]

Oh, my God. Yeah. Let's talk about that again.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Everyone who just listened to the last episode and is, like, going through these in order is, like, not. No, I just. We just did this.

[Em]

Let's pick another astrological sign and talk about it for a half an hour, please. And keep all of it in.

[Christine]

Please don't. I mean, it's really insufferable. I know, I know.

[Em]

Well, tell me, Christine, how is your little life going on over there?

[Christine]

I gotta say, things are in upheaval. I mean, I think it's just one of those years where we hit June and everybody. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but in my. From my perspective, we hit June and I went. Wasn't. Wasn't stuff supposed to get, like, resolved and, like, put into place? And, like, weren't. Wasn't justice, like, with the bigger picture of the government and the world? Like, weren't we supposed to get moving and get. Things were. And it's like, how are we halfway through the year, and I still feel like this year's kicking my ass like last year did.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

But I don't know. Part of me feels like June is kind of like the. Like, we're, like, getting back. Like, I feel like I can kind of take a breath again. I don't know. There's something like. Yeah, there's something like a shift to the second half of the year. I don't know. That's. That's making me feel a bit calmer about that. But what I will say is that I. I have a beverage here today. A special one. I mean, it's. It's my new favorite thing, and it's.

[Em]

Tell me.

[Christine]

I should. I shouldn't be ordering this multiple times a week because it is expensive. But it is a green farm juicery. It's a morning jolt. Oh, and my friend Izzy and I go for, like, mom walks sometimes on Mondays, and she walks me to that place, and I get that. And we did that yesterday. And then today, it's all I could think about all morning, and so I had to get another one, and I get.

[Em]

I mean, there's a reason I have way too many London Fog sent out to the house. You know what I mean?

[Christine]

Yeah. And it's like. It was, like, $12, and I was like, oy. But you know what? I am not. I'm struggling with my appetite lately. Well, by the way, as a side note, the reason I drink is I hadn't really looked at my dms and then the episode came out Sunday, and I know a lot of people, probably rightfully so, skipped my half because it was just about astrology. It wasn't like. Like, true crime astrology, but it wasn't like, you know, a story. So I know some people prob. Probably weren't into that. But I did discuss my recent sobriety. And so for those who are confused about what I'm gonna say in a moment, that's what happened in the last episode. Nearing the end. You can catch up on that. But a lot of people wrote me, and you had said that m. And I was like, yeah, maybe. But, like, I really feel very touched by the amount of people who reached out and had similar stories or just, like, requ. I mean, even what was most touching were people who were like, I. Like you said, like, I was waiting for some sign or something to push me in the right direction, and, like, that was it. Or, you know, you really spoke to a part of Me, I wasn't. I was neglect. I don't know. There were a lot of really just kind and grateful sentiments that. That really were lovely to read. And I have not gotten back to all of them. I've responded to a few and I do plan to go through them, but that's going to probably be like a, you know, a process of, like, taking my time and going through each one individually. But so, anyway, I bought my warning jolt. That was my little special flt for today, and that's why I drink. So. Cheers.

[Em]

Is that why you drink also?

[Christine]

Just tea milkshake. Oh, my God. It's like tea milkshake. Holy.

[Em]

And I don't know what to call this show anymore. That's why. But also that I can confirm. Are you drinking something right now?

[Christine]

Actually, I think we did that on purpose. We were like, that's. We did for anybody. Because you never drank during the show, so it's like, oh, it covers both. So it was defecting.

[Em]

Just drinking calories, period. We never defined what we were drinking specifically. Just drinking.

[Christine]

We did, like, often. We defined often, but, you know, it was always.

[Em]

I choose to rebuke that, actually, just because it doesn't fit my current narrative. Are you matching your drink?

[Christine]

Matches my NPR crop top, literally.

[Em]

By the way, NPR crop top, it gives bisexual. So happy pride, everybody.

[Christine]

I know, I know. By the way, it's the most bisexual shirt I own. Of course.

[Em]

Literally, a muscle tee, like, okay, jujitsu

[Christine]

one time, and then I buy, like, my 11 smoothie, and I'm like, who are you?

[Em]

I know.

[Christine]

And I live in Kentucky, so it's, like, way more affordable than doing this in LA, like some people do.

[Em]

Sure. That drink would be 29.99 here.

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't have any sort of. No, that's not happening. But yeah, that will. To be fair, though, they have a bunch of different straws, so they sent this one. They picked it. They must have known.

[Em]

They said, I bet they must have a big old bisexual is gonna be. Is gonna be in their orange blue crop top. Muscle tea.

[Christine]

How?

[Em]

Literally the fact that your biceps, your tattooed biceps are showing. It is pride. And she is loud today, everybody. Okay, they were choking on your drink. Okay.

[Christine]

I was. Oh, oh. I don't get it twisted.

[Em]

I was, um. Yes. Happy pride to everybody. By the time this comes out, it has pride. Pride for probably a little bit, but for us, we're only on day two of pride, so we're.

[Christine]

I know. You know, this comes out later, but you're right. Like, our energy right now is so very Gemini, and I feel like it'll, like, blast through the airwaves when this comes out, even though we'll probably be nearing cancer season, if not in it already. So I'm sorry, say it ain't so. But, like, yeah, we're on one, and we are one to two, 24 to 48 hours, respectively, from our birthdays right now. So, you know, that's exactly right.

[Em]

Like, this is the. I would argue this is the most. Enter a spiritually energetic weekend of the year for us. It's like, yeah, yeah, our birthday's about to happen. Like, what else? What else could there be?

[Christine]

There's, like, this terrible synergy. It's great for us, but terrible for everyone else. We're just like, like, mentally unwell and, like, you know, feeding each other.

[Em]

Like, a cartoon drawing of a twister is coming through.

[Christine]

Totally, totally ACME level. We.

[Em]

So, you know, we.

[Christine]

So you get happy pride.

[Em]

Well, I'm happy for you and your little jolt. I take it there's coffee in that? If it's called.

[Christine]

Oh, of course. Cold brew. And it feels so good.

[Em]

Could feel it coursing through your big body.

[Christine]

But, hey, you know, you lose some and you lose some. So here we are.

[Em]

Well, what. What do I have to say over here? I drink. I drink a can of Az and

[Christine]

Which we both have really delightful, like, aesthetic drinks today. I like this.

[Em]

My favorite thing about this. And by the way, let me tell you now, Let me. Let me guide you on your journey through sobriety. This is now.

[Christine]

Please do.

[Em]

I've been waiting for someone to welcome to Drinking 101. This is your Now. This is your tall boy. This is the closest thing to tall boys you get. You get Arizona green teas. Okay.

[Christine]

You know, I'll take it.

[Em]

Like, it's pretty great.

[Christine]

I, like, I have found that quitting drinking has brought me back to a lot of my teenage interests.

[Em]

Right?

[Christine]

Because it's like, before I started drinking, like, I loved Arizona. Like, that was what Celine and I would go get every day. And it's like, oh, I can go back to those things. They're still there waiting for me. I'm the prodigal.

[Em]

It's. And Jesus has arrived.

[Christine]

Do you see how quickly I escalate to, like, a God complex? It's kind of amazing.

[Em]

You literally warned people just now that something was in the air. And then you called yourself Jesus. And you expect people to be shocked.

[Christine]

I don't. I mean, I told you. I tried to warn you.

[Em]

I. And I'm fine with that. I notice how you said that you're the prodigal son, and I didn't say anything bad.

[Christine]

You're exactly right.

[Em]

That's right.

[Christine]

You were right to do that. Thank you.

[Em]

No, I totally agree with you. You. You worded it in a way that I wouldn't have thought of it. But you're totally right that by having never drank, I have. I still have the. And you now also have the childhood whimsy back.

[Christine]

Yeah. There's, like, a reclaiming of the whim. Yeah.

[Em]

Because this was the closest to, like, getting up we could do at 16. And it's like, totally. Now I get to get up.

[Christine]

It wasn't, but it was as far as I knew.

[Em]

What a wine cooler. Right?

[Christine]

Like, I don't know. I'm like, there were kids doing stuff, but not me. Yeah. I was getting up on. On the. The iced tea and going, I can't sleep because I had too much caffeine.

[Em]

And now you can do that with your jolt as well.

[Christine]

Oh, my God. Yeah, exactly. That's my vice.

[Em]

Well, okay, so I drink my. My tall boy, and. And I just took my meds, so everybody please take your meds.

[Christine]

Fantastic. Oh, I'm right on time today for the first time in weeks. And I felt like I was like, I'm aligned, you know?

[Em]

Yeah. I start with, I'm Jesus. And then you went, my chakras are aligned because I took my prescribed medication.

[Christine]

I took it for one time at the exact right time.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

And you know what? It was a beautiful moment.

[Em]

I believe you. I do know what it feels like when your body is actually responding well to your choices. It feels good. Yeah.

[Christine]

It's because it's. It's a little bit of in shock. And then it's like, can I get used to this? And you're like, careful.

[Em]

Hang on.

[Christine]

Not yet. Not yet.

[Em]

Well, the reason I drink is Allison took me. I already celebrated my birthday this weekend.

[Christine]

Yes. Where did you go?

[Em]

Okay, I. We went to a little town a few hours away. I was scared because I just never know what's gonna happen when I hear

[Christine]

a long road trip experience.

[Em]

And I even asked in advance. I was like, will there be a hotel? Because sometimes it's the. And I went, is it. Is there a hotel? And even that.

[Christine]

Is it a Bring your own pillow.

[Em]

Thank you, byop.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

And Allison was hesitating, and I was like, girl, please don't make me sleep on the ground for my birthday. Please don't do this. Allison nailed it. This is what happened. But she. The reason she was husband is because what she was trying to avoid was that this was a bit of like a themed motel situation. So she couldn't really say anything.

[Christine]

So it was like two. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I get you. Get you, get you.

[Em]

So we went to Idle Wild, which is about three hours from us. And beautiful, you have heard about Idlewild before, because I've told you that there's a certain mayor there I've always wanted to meet.

[Christine]

I have heard of Idlewild. In fact, I had not. I. Oh, the head. The law.

[Em]

The Paul is the law. The PA

[Christine]

is the law.

[Em]

This is Mayor Max when he was a puppy. And I got to meet the mayor. Oh, Idle Wild.

[Christine]

You know what? So. So first of all, I'm so. This is the. I'm. My brain is a little bit short circuiting. That's remarkable. Nailed it out of the park. Knocked it out of the park.

[Em]

She found out that Mayor Max was having a. An event, a meet and greet. And then we drove three hours to meet a dog. We couldn't tell Hank, of course. That would have been so devastating to him.

[Christine]

Oh, my word.

[Em]

No. So we were going to go see the other cutie pie, but we. I got to meet him and his whole little gang. Because if you follow Miramax, you know that it's not just Mayor Max. There's also vice Mayor Meadow, there's co Mayor Mitzi, there's deputies, there's all these puppies everywhere. Oh, just a golden retriever party. And so we got there. Mayor Max was in his cowboy hat and his bib, his little bandana said mayor Max. Of course.

[Christine]

Of course.

[Em]

We got to take so many pictures with him. I got to touch his ears. And I'll tell you, thick as thieves, those ears.

[Christine]

Oh.

[Em]

Oh, my God. Like, we were like.

[Christine]

I love it.

[Em]

We were trying to come up with, like, I'd never felt a thicker dog ear, which is such a weird thing to take away from this.

[Christine]

So velvety soft.

[Em]

All I wanted to do here. You're Mayor Max. This is all I wanted to do to Mary Mare Max. You know what I mean?

[Christine]

Yes.

[Em]

But I wasn't gonna do that to the mayor. So I just kind of gave him a pet, grabbed his little ear and said, hello.

[Christine]

And that's what you would do to any other mayor.

[Em]

That's what I did to you when we first met.

[Christine]

That's right. And that's when I said, gotta. All right.

[Em]

Gotta sign up for this.

[Christine]

Sign me up. Whatever it is, I'm in.

[Em]

But I would do that to me there. You're right. And I was shocked. There wasn't a shirt that said, like, I got to kiss the mayor, or I touched the mayor's really thin here.

[Christine]

The mayor kissed me. The mayor licked me. You know, there's so many options.

[Em]

So many. I. I scratched the mayor's butt. I rubbed the mayor's tummy. I mean, did they spill into it?

[Christine]

Did they just ask him for a friend? Did they sell any crop muscle tape that look vaguely bisexual and heathered in.

[Em]

In appear in acid wash? Yeah, yeah.

[Christine]

Acid wash, heathered appearance. Like, it looks like it's thrifted, but

[Em]

it's obviously not, you know, so they had. I was expecting to get a shirt as soon as I found out that I was seeing Mayor Max, because of course I've looked. They do have shirts on the website. And I was. I always almost bought a shirt, and then they didn't have any shirts there. They only had magnets and stickers. Obviously, I bought one of each. And then I got the hat. Pause the law.

[Christine]

I bet the shirts are hard because you would need, like, different sizing and you wouldn't know. Yeah.

[Em]

So anyway, we did that. And while we were in idle wild, winds up spending the night there. And that's when Allison sent me to this, like, out of control, insane, wonderful motel called Hicksville Pines. Oh, I need you to Google her.

[Christine]

Okay, okay, okay. I was hoping you'd say that.

[Em]

So there's like 10 different rooms or something. And each of them are themed. We got Haunted Mansion, which. Which was so fun.

[Christine]

Shut the fuck up.

[Em]

And like, our bathroom had a secret passageway to get to the bathroom. And the walls had, like, the stretching wall like that you have at the Haunted Mansion in Disney.

[Christine]

Get out of here. The.

[Em]

They had the statues, and they all glowed at night and played music.

[Christine]

Haunted Mansion. Oh, my God, it looks so cool.

[Em]

It was very cool. And that place, they also had like a dolly themed room.

[Christine]

They had a 4:20 going to the 420 room.

[Em]

Oh, it's literally just like an a frame hold a black lighthouse.

[Christine]

I'm actually just gonna Pinterest this real quick. And just like home.

[Em]

I don't know if you noticed, but it's called a Bud and breakfast, not a bed and breakfast. And so when you get there and they give you your room key, they also give you complimentary pot. And they were like, wait, what? She literally was like, oh, I forgot your weed. And just handed us a bunch of weed.

[Christine]

And you're sure it wasn't like a Weed from Idlewild.

[Em]

Like, that would be funny.

[Christine]

It's just like a piece of grass. No. Oh, wow. That's. I like that there's a what to expect. And I'm like, usually you wouldn't click that, but it sounds like a place like this. You got to click. What?

[Em]

It was incredibly 420 friendly. Incredibly.

[Christine]

Oh, my God. Dog friendly. Friendly. Coffee and tea. Morning munchies.

[Em]

Yes. So the breakfast that we had, they. It's a marijuana leaf. I was so stupid. It didn't occur to me. I was like, oh, my God, Canada. Like, I literally. I just thought it was maple Canada. I thought it was a maple leaf. It didn't occur to me that it was green. And then the candle that they gave me because it was my birthday, they made it look like a little joint sticking out of it. It was very.

[Christine]

Oh, my God, that's adorable.

[Em]

So it was. We obviously are not.

[Christine]

This look looks cool.

[Em]

We're not smokers. But it was. So we weren't there for that theme, but it was still super cool. And they had a whole. They had a communal fire pit house so you could all sit in there and have a fire. They had a hot tub. They had cornhole. They had ping pong. They had a whole, like, rec area that was open 24 7, so you could play any games in a jukebox.

[Christine]

Lovely.

[Em]

It was very, very wonderful. So anyway, Allison nailed it. We did that. We hit some, like, Route 66, roadside attractions along the way. Went to the original McDonald's.

[Christine]

Nice.

[Em]

Went to a glass museum. Saw some uranium glass. Not a single celery vase in that glass museum that I saw. Yeah. Shocking.

[Christine]

Weird.

[Em]

Anyway, so Allison killed it. I got to meet the mayor.

[Christine]

I'm so happy for you. That is literally a bucket list.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

So if anyone.

[Christine]

Congratulations.

[Em]

Thank you. So if anyone's ever in Idlewild, they also have one in Joshua Tree, I think, but Hicksville Pines. I just want to give them a big shout out because it was awesome.

[Christine]

So, yeah, I mean, I'm in for the 420 room. Sounds fun. Or for all of it.

[Em]

Yeah. They also have, like, a nerd themed one, which sounded cool. Anyway. Yeah, that's why I drink. I had a very nice B day, and that's about it over here.

[Christine]

So.

[Em]

Yeah. I don't know. I guess we just tell stories now. Oh, wait, wait. You wanted to say. You wanted to tease a Yappy Hour situation.

[Christine]

That's right. Okay. What were we talking about? Oh, you asked. Remind me what I was gonna tease right about no. So you had said we were doing an ad for Storyworth and off, like, off air, you kind of said to me, oh, I would send this to you and ask a question. Like, fill in your own question and ask you to retell the story of your stepmom buying the bear. And I said, well. And I realized, oh, my gosh, this would be perfect for Yappy Hour because I actually think I can find the news articles that actually mention it and talk about the event. Oh, my God, the local news from. From that. From that time period. So I'm gonna try and do that during the happy hour and pull up, like, actual news articles. Not to prove it, but just to

[Em]

be like, no, I want to.

[Christine]

This is the context of what happened. And I don't know all of it either. So, like, I. I could learn a thing or two. But. So, yeah, my stepmom bought a bear. Sorry if you' is going on, I am too, but. Or m is too, but my stepmother bought a bear or my son's brother bought a bear in a catalog. Yeah. When they were kids. Sorry. When they were kids.

[Em]

And I know we've talked about it before, but I was like, yeah, if. When we were talking about story worth, I was like, if I want a story memorialized at all, because I constantly forget the nitty gritty details. I want.

[Christine]

Yeah, we want to know. We want to sol. We want to solidify this. We want to get this in writing. Yes. Yeah, that's exactly right. And I'm. And I'm. I'm so thankful that you brought that up. So I'm going to look. I've been meaning to look into the news articles for like years, and I'm pretty sure they're. They're on the. In the archive. So I'm just gonna pull it up during the yap yard and see if I can find it.

[Em]

Perfect. Okay, great.

[Christine]

Yay. Sick of those old fuddy duddy banks. Ugh.

[Em]

You know, first they were just funny, now they're duddy. We are big fans of chime. We've talked about them already here. But chime is changing the way that people bank. They offer the most rewarding fee free banking built for you. They're not like traditional old banks that charge overdraft and monthly fees. It really it again. Back in the day, it would have changed my life to not have to worry about overdraft.

[Christine]

So frustrating. It's so frustrating. Well, thanks a lot. It's probably a problem somebody else faced and then decided to create a solution for it. So you know. Thank you for that really cool stuff. Tribe members can benefit from up to $1,150 in annual rewards fee. Free direct deposit unlocks the most rewarding way to bank at Chime. And Chime is rated five stars by USA Today for customer service. So they've got real humans there to talk to if you need help. Get 5% cash back in a category of your choice, which is always my favorite. They let you pick gas, groceries, you know, whatever is the priority that month.

[Em]

Christine is lying because her actual favorite part is that you get premium travel perks like airport lounge access and 247 travel concierge. Chime is not just smarter banking. It is the most rewarding way to bank. During the millions who are already banking

[Christine]

fee free Today, head to chime.comdrink that is chime.comdrink. it only takes a few minutes to sign up. Chime is a fintech, not a bank. Banking services from MyPay and Chimecard provided by Chime's bank partners.

[Em]

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[Christine]

Stated annual percentage yield on cash back for Chime prime only. No minimum balance required.

[Em]

Checking account ranking based on a J.D.

[Christine]

power survey published October 20, 2025. For more information on APY rates, MyPay Spot Me and travel perks, go to Chime.com disclosures.

[Em]

Okay, well, my story for you is Haunted Castle in Ireland. Ireland. I'm not even gonna try. Well, I did. I'm not gonna do it again, though.

[Christine]

So I thought that was pretty good. But I'm the one who said Glasgow instead of Glasgow.

[Em]

So it's. It's okay. We're evenly matched. We've both said very silly things, haven't we?

[Christine]

Super silly. Super silly.

[Em]

I remember one time we had a show, I think it was in, was it Minnesota? And I remember saying I Wabasha Caves and apparently was Wabasha or something. And the whole audience screamed.

[Christine]

So in the moment, it is the. Probably the worst. It is like I was like living

[Em]

stupidest person on earth.

[Christine]

Everyone's screaming at you. It's like a nightmare where you've, like forgotten your lines on stage, but the audience is suddenly shouting and they're also drunk. And you're like, they know the lines

[Em]

better than you and they know the line right well. Okay, so this is an Irish castle. It's called the Malahide Castle. And let's crack into it. Hang on. Let's crack into it.

[Christine]

That was good. Now.

[Em]

That was nice. Okay, that was a really good one. Just another reason that we are big AZ fans over here.

[Christine]

Yeah, I love that.

[Em]

Okay, so Ireland. We're in the Dublin area, and this is a 12th century castle owned by the Talbot family. And they've owned this castle for almost 800 years.

[Christine]

Oh, Jesus. Wow. That. That Talk about inheritance real quick. Also, side note, before people, like, tweeted me, it might be too late. And also, I don't have. I got locked out of Twitter and it doesn't even exist. So I don't know why I'm saying that, but, yeah, I know Glasgow is in. In Scotland. Just saying that.

[Em]

Okay, but.

[Christine]

But when I gave that example, I meant, like, as someone who doesn't know how to pronounce even, like, very obvious things, I just realized, like, it made it sound like I don't. I know. I know one or two things sometimes. Okay, sometimes I promise.

[Em]

But not always.

[Christine]

I'm really trying.

[Em]

We can't be experts in every field. It's exhausting to do that. Trust me.

[Christine]

A few. But we've tried.

[Em]

So the Talbots have owned. Or they. They owned this castle for almost 800 years. And when I say almost, I mean 791. Why the fuck didn't you live here for nine more years?

[Christine]

Do you think that killed them? Because. Because someone like me was like, no, I think it's funnier to just leave right before.

[Em]

Wow.

[Christine]

And it's like, I see you right off. That was us in a past time. I feel it in my bones. That was us. I was like, actually, I'm going to make the lease end, like, two days before. Like, the 800.

[Em]

Truly, I'm just like, you were so close. Like, that's hilarious at that point. Shit. Like, why not just stay 200 more years? And it's a thousand years. Like, what?

[Christine]

Well, you know, you're right. Why not just, like, perpetuate this responsibility through a couple more generations?

[Em]

Thank you.

[Christine]

So that just you now, in this moment, can go a thousand years sounds pretty good.

[Em]

I'm so glad you saw it that way. That's exactly what I meant. So the Talbots, they lived for 791 years. They lived in this castle up until the 1970s. So, like, very recently.

[Christine]

Holy crap. So they really just had to. Oh, I was gonna say they had to make it to the year 2000. Then I went, christine, I need. You need to get it together. You need to actually.

[Em]

Well, they only need to make it to the 1980s to make it today quiet. To make it okay.

[Christine]

No. What?

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Oh, yeah. Okay.

[Em]

Exactly. Why couldn't you just do this for me?

[Christine]

God, Hang on. What's the matter with you?

[Em]

Thank you. I finally. Okay, so they lived in this castle up until the 1970s, when they sold it to the Irish government to pay off inheritance taxes. Oh, whoopsies.

[Christine]

So they were like, well, maybe my ancestors should have thought about that before saddling us with all this tremendous debt.

[Em]

800 years of inheritance taxes. So they're almost 800 year eight. Ownership of the property makes the Talbot family one of, if not the longest continual landowning families in Ireland.

[Christine]

Gee.

[Em]

Which I. I should have looked this up. But who has lived there longer? Because, like, I feel like they win. Like, the fact that they are one of is like, who else is there?

[Christine]

I know. Talbot's J. Jill.

[Em]

J. Chill. The. Are you saying to me. IDK by BFF Jill Talbot, who owns a castle.

[Christine]

I keep flopping. My jokes have been flopping all week. And I think it's because I'm sure mercury is in cancer. And it makes me think that, like, my. I'm saying what I'm saying, and I'm not. Okay. What I was trying to say is. Do you remember that?

[Em]

No, no, it's. No, I've never heard of Jill.

[Christine]

Oh, well, it's like Talbot's the store. The women's store.

[Em]

That would have been hysterical. If I knew what J. Joe was, that would have been funny.

[Christine]

Somebody did, hopefully. But the other, I couldn't think of another example. Like, J. Crew. Black market J. Crew is good, too, but I'm a Jill, and Taylor is a better one. I should have said Ann Taylor.

[Em]

What's the other?

[Christine]

Clay.

[Em]

Clay.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

There's one with a C. Whatever Talbots Jill is is a very funny joke. I just didn't know the reference.

[Christine]

That's. No, I appreciate that you still laughed, though. I mean, you really did laugh because you were like, I bet it's funny. I just don't know what that is. So thank you for giving me that grace.

[Em]

I don't think you've ever flopped. It's. Truly. Anytime I haven't understood one of your jokes, it's on me. It's not because you're.

[Christine]

Can I tell you the joke that flopped? Which because, like, I've now gotten kind of. My brother was. I felt on my side, and then I think he defected because I asked him to verify that he was on my side in front of Blaze, and then he kind of like, yeah, it was a problem. You switched kind of to Blaze's side. And I felt a little bit like,

[Em]

hey, guys, the extra kick in the crotch there is that, like, he was, like, ready to be loyal to whatever the fuck was going on. And then you still publicly went, now prove it. And he's like, I just tried it. I know.

[Christine]

And that's my dumb fucking. I can't. Shut the fuck up. It's true. He was like.

[Em]

Like, I was gonna help you out, man.

[Christine]

He was like, I gave you the validation you sought, okay? And now don't make me, like, get into. Involved in an argument between you and your husband about whether you're funny or not. Like, just. Come on. No, the. And Blaze never said that. This was just me trying to insist that my joke landed. And clearly, the more I get mad about it, the less funny it's gonna be. But the basic gist of it was somebody I was speaking to said. I said, oh, grow. They grow marijuana. And I. I saw this, And I, like, DM'd and said, oh, that's such a cool hobby. I would love to learn that someday. And this is one of Blaze's friends. So I'm like, oh, I just saw this. So this person responds and says, oh, yeah, I have plenty of cheat codes if you ever do. And I said, is one of them Rosebud?

[Em]

See, that's funny. But he had never.

[Christine]

I thought it was funny, but he never played Sims.

[Em]

Is that it?

[Christine]

So I saw the typing, and then I saw it stop. And then I said, oh, fuck.

[Em]

You saw him go, what do I say? Wait a minute.

[Christine]

Yeah. And then he's like, we don't know each other well enough to be bantering in a way where I can say, what the fuck does that mean? So then I said to Blaze, do you understand this joke? And I said it to him, and he went, no, I don't understand the joke. And I said, it's from the Sims, like Motherlode. And he said, I know the word mother load. And I went, okay, enough of this. And so then I said to Blaze's friend, sorry. Neither person in the room understood the joke. This is clear, clearly on me. I take full responsibility. And Blaze's friend said, never apologize for being too niche. And I was like, oh, such a kind way of saying, good man, Jesus. I know, I know. And I thought. And, wow.

[Em]

So anyway, that's really profound.

[Christine]

It was profound. And it felt. It felt very validating. But then my brother was like, yeah, in some circles, that's a pretty. Okay. Maybe he didn't give me the validation that I really wanted. I don't know. Maybe I invented that part because even when I look back, I'm like, he didn't seem all that convinced. Maybe it's not as good a joke as I thought. Maybe it's just my algorithm talks about the Sims so much that I assume everybody has this on their same feed, you know?

[Em]

Trust me, as someone whose algorithm is nuts right now, I figured you say a lot of things and just hope and pray I don't look like an idiot. And a lot of times my prayers aren't answered.

[Christine]

Typically, like, when other people do say something, I'm like, oh, I just don't get it. But like, I'm. I just like how you did with jj. Like, it's probably funny, but when it's a DM one on one, I realize, like, okay, this is awkward because we don't know each other that well, so it's like he's got to be like, like. But that's a lot of like, say, haha. Do I say. What does that mean?

[Em]

But that happens a lot. Even with, like, friend dating, where, yes, you have to.

[Christine]

Friend dating is totally.

[Em]

You just have to say some wild and hope that they know what the reference is.

[Christine]

And then like, if there's that, like, weird pause, you're like, moving on.

[Em]

We did not pass there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Whoops.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Em]

Remember that one? Why I wouldn't even say friend, but the person that I went on a friend date with, we both go see each other.

[Christine]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Em]

I tried too many times throwing out niche references and I just probably looked

[Christine]

like I at a certain point. Cut your losses. Yeah, you're like, one day I'll be aligned enough for this conversation.

[Em]

Our algorithms don't like each other, therefore I don't think. Yeah, we're just crisscrossing anyway, Jill.

[Christine]

Right, so that's the joke. Hahaha.

[Em]

Was that like J. Crew and Taylor or Chico?

[Christine]

It was like 100%. It was like where my mother would go buy, like, cardigans or whatever. No, she would kill me for saying that, but, you know, like, it was like.

[Em]

It was that kind of story. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Those were all the stores my mom made me go to when we went back to school shopping.

[Christine]

It's like really rough. For the pencil skirt. Yeah, like the pencil skirt.

[Em]

They love a polo.

[Christine]

Oh, a polo. Man, those. And apparently those are back. I went into a Hollister with my sister unwillingly, and I was like, this is literally the exact same store from 25.

[Em]

You know what else is back?

[Christine]

No difference.

[Em]

They've been back for a while now. I hate to say it. Gulp. Birkenstocks.

[Christine]

I mean, they're, like, sucks every. You know how I feel. I mean, I've worn burgers. They're, like, in my life.

[Em]

Back, back, back. They're back, back, back. Like, you are in right now if you have Birkenstocks.

[Christine]

No, I know. I have, like, 16 pair. No, I don't. I have two.

[Em]

But still, I'm a little offended by them being back because the current generation who's bringing them back doesn't understand that it was the only way we could out ourselves back then. Now everyone just wears them.

[Christine]

Oh, I see. Yeah.

[Em]

They were a gay icon, and now we're just. Everyone can have them. Crazy. That's great.

[Christine]

I know. But, like, think about, like, the crop tee. It's sometimes about the energy you bring to the situation. Okay. M is what I would say, because I own two pairs of Birkenstocks. One are, like, a cute light blue color that I always accidentally match my nail. My toenail polish color, too. And it's kind of like this cutesy vibe. But then I own my, like, granola Birkenstocks, and it's like, I wear those out, and it's like, oh, that's not the same person, you know? You know, that's a different energy. And it's the same with this crop. I bought this thinking I'm gonna look so, like. Like, cute and girly, and then I get it. I'm like, whoa, I look intense. Like, you know, you look like.

[Em]

You never know.

[Christine]

Yeah, well, I couldn't. And you never. I'm wearing Birkenstocks. But you never know. I feel like it's also about the, like, vibe you bring.

[Em]

But you're right.

[Christine]

Like, there is for sure, like, a little bit of, like, hey, that was.

[Em]

You know, that was ours also.

[Christine]

Wait a minute.

[Em]

You know what was the gayest piece of clothing? Any Sapphic person growing up in the early 2000s can tell you that's probably the gayest thing they've ever worn. Was when American Eagle came out with those patchwork quilt shorts. Do you remember? You know what I mean?

[Christine]

I have, like, 11. My mother has, like, a box of just those. Like, 11 of pairs of those.

[Em]

You know what? They recently came up on my Tick Tock feed, which means that those plus Birkenstocks are back, which means we're just. They're just rubbing it in my face now.

[Christine]

Maybe they're just like, do you want to try again and be gay this time? And I'm like, maybe you want to

[Em]

just kiss girls when you're wearing these instead of thinking about It. Between my. My. My polo shirts because I wore a collared shirt every day.

[Christine]

Or did you ever do the double collar shirt?

[Em]

Of course I did. Of course I did.

[Christine]

Oh, that was annoying. The double polo, I thought, was just a little bit absurd. A lot. A bit absurd.

[Em]

It was. Even when I was doing it, I was like, this looks fine.

[Christine]

This is a good photo op, though, because there are some hilarious photos of me wearing, like. Like Hollister or, like, trying to look. And it looks. It's like I was supposed to be wearing the pilgrim shoes my mom had bought me. And that was the aura I was projecting. But I was, like, wearing a pink halter top. Do you know what I mean?

[Em]

There was also. There was a phase where I finally stopped wearing the patchwork shorts. Because I'm trying to think, would pictures of that exist? It's so hard because there were very few pictures taken on me in high school. But there was. I also went through a phase where I was wearing a lot of capris, but they were cargo capris, which.

[Christine]

Oh, the cargo capris had such.

[Em]

And you know what? To this day, I'd wear them again. They were so lovely. They. They were breezy, but they were as butch as we could get at a prep school where I was in the class.

[Christine]

I have something to tell you. My sister said that capris. They're back at Hollister now, too.

[Em]

Damn it. Wow. It really. It all. It's all. It's. Nothing's changed. And you know what? They're gonna act like it's like they came up with it.

[Christine]

That's fine. Yeah, that's fine. It's fine. And guess what? We probably didn't come up with it either. When the Polos came out, the 80, the Ronald Reagan, the Nancy Reagan heads, all those big Nancy Reagan heads were like, hey, that's our thing, you dumb

[Em]

Nancy Reagan said, excuse me, you dumb cunt.

[Christine]

Give me that polo.

[Em]

Oh, how did we get here? Oh, Talbots.

[Christine]

Right, right.

[Em]

Sure, sure, sure, sure, sure. What a. What a ride that was. I'm still stuck on that one store that starts with the scene. I don't know what it is. Like Clayborns or some like that. That.

[Christine]

Anyway, Liz Claiborne is a thing. But I think you're thinking of saying different, which I feel like I'm also trying to think of interesting, because Liz Claiborne is makeup.

[Em]

Oh, okay. No, I'm thinking of, like a New York and Company, but that was young J. Crew. That was like, in 10 years, you'll be a J. Crew.

[Christine]

New York and come. Yeah, it was like, it was. What do you call it? The, the gateway or like the feeder. The gateway.

[Em]

Closet.

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Em]

Okay. The, the Talbots. Oh, my God. So they own this castle for almost 100 years. The first Talbot to own it was Sir Richard Talbot. He got it in 1185.

[Christine]

He got it.

[Em]

Well, he was, it was gifted to him because he worked for King Henry ii and to reward him for all of his work, King Henry II said, here's land. Build a castle, do whatever you want with it. So the property also became a significant port for the area, which helped the Talbot family actually become very powerful. Not only were they just randomly given a castle, but now they are. That castle also happens to be a big port. So they're very powerful.

[Christine]

Like you said, it's so random. I'm like, didn't he literally work for the king? So that. Probably not super random.

[Em]

Not super random. But it's like it, like he, it was granted to him. Like if he saw 10 years into the future, he would have been like, oh, I did not realize we were going to be this powerful.

[Christine]

It wasn't like, now turn this land into a big shipping port. It was just sort of like it happened.

[Em]

It all kind of happened for him. And so then the Talbots became this big family in town, eventually a big family in all of Ireland. And. But the castle itself did expand over time. After 800 years, of course, things would have changed without it, but they basically built towers and gardens and it slowly got more and more lavish. At one source said that King Henry the. Or King Edward IV at some point even like funded the castle getting bigger and grander because it was a port and it was therefore important to him as well. So anyway, it got very lavish over time. There was one time in, in that 800 years that the Talbots owned it. Only once did it momentarily switch hands, and that was from 1649 to 1660. So it's only an 11 year time period.

[Christine]

Tough, tough 11 years. What happened?

[Em]

Well, it was the English Civil War.

[Christine]

Oh.

[Em]

And Oliver Cromwell and his knights threw out all, pretty much all the people in town. They were.

[Christine]

And his cronies.

[Em]

And his cronies.

[Christine]

Cromwell and his cronies.

[Em]

That's exactly right. And one of his cronies was named Miles Corbett. And basically when the entire town was exiled or thrown out, that included the Talbot. So the castle was available and Cromwell gave it to his crony, Miles Corbett got it. So when, when he lived there, Corbett was hated by the remaining locals, I bet. Or I. It said that he tried criminalizing Catholicism, which a lot of people in the area were Catholic. He had their abbey and their churches vandalized. It's actually rumored that at one point, he also set up a brewery in one of the chapels. And that this is. Again, I don't know how true this is, but it's rumored that the smoke from the fires. This is a quote. The smoke from the fires under his boiler when it was a brewery are still visible in the chapel.

[Christine]

Oh, that's cool.

[Em]

Which, to me, it's like, super cool. Like, oh, make it a brewery. But also, it's like, what a slap in the face to, like, their place of worship.

[Christine]

It would be like you barging into somewhere that practices a different religion. I'm just gonna put this in your mosque. And it's like, yes. No.

[Em]

He was also known for being one of the people who signed the death warrant for King Charles the First.

[Christine]

Whoa.

[Em]

So King Charles did not like this

[Christine]

man, because I would think not.

[Em]

He was one of the people who. Who signed off on the king dying. So he lived here for 11 years until the restoration and King Charles II was put in power. And when King Charles II was put in power, he was like, remember all those people who killed the other King Charles before me? I would like to round all those people up, and I'd like them to be held accountable for their crimes. And that includes Miles Corbett. So Corbett had been living in the castle for 11 years. He flees the the country. He goes to the Netherlands to try to hide, so that way they can't find him and kill him in retaliation. But they eventually find him. They take him in, and he is. Is quote, hanged, drawn and quartered before a cheering crowd. Oh, Yako, hold that energy, because this is where I do another quick dive into what? Hanged, drawn, and quartered me.

[Christine]

Why must we do that?

[Em]

Because someone wants to hear it.

[Christine]

Someone wants to know. Go ahead.

[Em]

And I have, I think, covered this before, so this is just a quick little thing, but, you know, know people like sickos.

[Christine]

Google it yourself and read the dirty details.

[Em]

People like the ins and outs of medieval torture. So here we go. I got all this information, by the way, from an article from how stuff Works. Fun fact, Hank. Being hang, drawn and quartered existed from 1241 to 1782. In case anyone wanted to know, like, did this ever. How did this happen?

[Christine]

Half a millennia. Yeah.

[Em]

500 years. Half, yeah. Well, half is a millennia. A thousand years, yeah. It was removed as a sentencing style in 1870, which is crazy that it Was, Wow. It was almost a hundred years later

[Christine]

that, well, you think about, like, firing squads and stuff that are still technically, you know.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Legal in certain places.

[Em]

Well, so it was. It existed for another hundred years as ascendancy style. But I think at that point, people were like, we don't want to do this anymore.

[Christine]

It's not really the vibe anymore.

[Em]

So they just officially took it off the list of options. In 1870, it was used for those who committed high treason. It was considered the ultimate punishment. And interestingly, it's not hanged, drawn and quartered. The process is more drawn, hanged, a bonus experience, and then quartered.

[Christine]

So, see, okay, because I always wondered. Because I thought, well, if it's hanged, at least you're hanged first, then the rest. But no. Okay, never mind. Fine.

[Em]

So being drawn is the best part of it, where you are tied behind a horse and you get dragged to the gallows, usually from the prison you were in, which could be several miles away. And you're. You're being dragged by a horse, not by, like a fast car. So it's taking.

[Christine]

Tied, right, like by the ankle or something.

[Em]

Yeah, you're bound and dragged. And sometimes it was like on essentially a sled. So it's not like your back is getting ripped up on the ground. But. But I'm sure there was a time a sled wasn't used. And it's a horse, so it's. It's taking longer than how long it would take us to travel a couple miles. And I guess during this whole thing, people paraded around you and threw trash at you.

[Christine]

I'm sure they're just throwing at rocks at you and. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Em]

So that's the best part. And you almost hope that someone throws a rock hard enough right at your head and you black out and don't experience the rest.

[Christine]

You almost hope.

[Em]

You almost hope because what's coming is not great. So then you get it to the gallows. You are intentionally hanged poorly, so that you slowly suffocate, but your neck does not snap.

[Christine]

Oh, I didn't understand that part, dude.

[Em]

So the. And then they don't even hang you to kill you ever. They just kill you to torture you, or they just hang you to torture you. So for like 20 minutes to a half an hour, they just let you hang there slowly, not being able to breathe and going in and out of consciousness.

[Christine]

I didn't know that.

[Em]

Then they cut you down for the bonus experience. The bonus experience is, you know, you, again, hope that they were able to suffocate you because this part you really, really don't want to experience. Your genitals are cut off. You're awake the whole time. By the way, if you didn't, if you survived the hanging situation. Your genitals are cut off and thrown into a fire before your very eyes. Your stomach is cut open and your intestines are pulled out. Thrown to. Also thrown into a fire. Your heart is cut out and thrown into a fire. So at least now, now I'm pretty sure you're dead. Then you're decapitated. And the heads of the most notable people as we know were put on spikes to be a warning to others. And then the quartering is interesting because you're not even awake for it because you're. You're now for sure not with us. But that's when your body is quartered into four pieces. Usually that means your legs and arms are cut off. But this is the fun fact. I didn't know. No, they are then preserved and like they're boiled with like spices and stuff and preserved and then taken. This is a quote from the article. Taken on a publicity tour to.

[Christine]

Excuse me.

[Em]

To let everyone know what happens to people who challenge the authority of the king. Because there was no media or newspapers back then. So the quartering and distributing the body parts was the way that they would go to towns and let you know. But don't fuck with the king. So that's another reason why it stopped being used. Even though a hundred years time it was still an acceptable sentencing style. It they already had, they had newspapers so they didn't have to like do this thing to your body and then physically go display it to people. They could just write about it.

[Christine]

Yeah. So it was meant to be like look at what happens to you. Like look how we can totally take. It's so dark.

[Em]

But as newspapers came out and people were able to read more, they didn't need that. They could just like write the threat. You know what I mean?

[Christine]

Right, right. Like you don't need to prove.

[Em]

Yes.

[Christine]

It with the limbs. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Em]

A lot of people think that quartering is when all four of your limbs are tied to different horses and all the horses run in different directions.

[Christine]

That's what I always thought.

[Em]

Apparently that's true in some areas. But that did not happen in England. That we know.

[Christine]

Okay. Okay.

[Em]

And it was maybe more of a torture style than a, than a killing than an execution.

[Christine]

The drawing was that the being dragged.

[Em]

Yeah. So it was like beat. You're essentially the horse drawn carriage. You're being drawn.

[Christine]

Okay. So you're drawn. And then there's the hanging, of course, and then the cutting and the mutilation called.

[Em]

They don't say it. It's just called. They just say hanged, drawn and quartered. But it's.

[Christine]

Oh. So that.

[Em]

I guess it's part of the quartering. It's that your whole body's coming apart. Yeah. Sorry.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Em]

Okay. So how are we. It gets better. Like, it's not. Like, that's the worst of it now. It's in the past.

[Christine]

You. You literally said this is the best part. Oh, no, no, that was just the sorry horse.

[Em]

The. Yeah, the sorry. Certainly the best in terms of a gore factor. But now we're. We're done with talking about that. We're back to the history of the castle.

[Christine]

Okay. Okay. Okay.

[Em]

Everyone's cortisol levels. Can. Can they have permission to drop? So when. So that's what happened to Miles Corbett. Because he was just so hated. I mean, the king. He literally said, yeah, the king should die. And then the king died. And then the new king was like, your turn. So when he moved out of the way or moved out of the castle and died, the Talbots finally were able to move back in. So that's why for that 11 years, they weren't living there as they were kicked out. And then they came right back.

[Christine]

And then they saw a press tour come through town with the guy's limbs and they were like, oh, perfect. That must mean it's back on the market.

[Em]

Honestly, I'm of like. Is that how they found out?

[Christine]

Like, oh, my God.

[Em]

And then, by the way, when they moved in, they. They then. What's the quote? They weakened the castle's defenses because as. As it had gotten built up and built up and built up to be this great grand thing. But then they realized that this is attractive to bad people.

[Christine]

Totally. Like to. To anyone with bad intention.

[Em]

Yeah. So they intentionally took a lot of that out of the way so that way nobody would want to steal their house again.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

And then they lived there until the 1970s. It's now a museum. It's an event venue. Like, a venue. They host tours there, including Paranormal Investigations. And now I'm just talking about ghosts.

[Christine]

Yay.

[Em]

Sorry about the. The tough part there. Okay. Ghosts. Here we go. So the staff and guests have experienced the classic stores opening, closing, footsteps, clothes getting tugged at, temperature drops, laughter and voices. People have felt nauseous in certain rooms. They've been locked into other rooms, even though there's no lock. Security has seen shadow figures on their cameras. It's been thought that the castle, because it's near ley lines, or because the castle is also built of limestone, which is a conductor for paranormal energy. They think those might be the reasons for its high activity. But they also, like, there have been, like, a lot of deaths over 800 years in that family.

[Christine]

And the amount of, like, just think about the emotions alone.

[Em]

Great point.

[Christine]

One family for 800 years.

[Em]

Also think about how many fucking wars since 1185. And, like, how many times an important port and a castle has been involved in all that. And a lot of those. A lot of the people who have owned that castle had to, like, go into battle. A lot of people lost their lives. There was actually one event that happened in the castle where, like, 14 of the family members all died in battle the same day. And they all lived in the castle, and none of them came home the same day.

[Christine]

Oh, my God. I mean, like, there's a lot of

[Em]

grief and tragedy mixed into this place.

[Christine]

Yes.

[Em]

So it said that there are five most notable spirits here. I'm kind of confused, because the way that I'm reading this, it sounds more like six. Excuse me. Okay, but let me know what you think. So the first one's obviously Miles Corbett. He. You know, I gotta give him credit where credit's due. He's an original ghost, because people see him in his military armor walking around the castle. But before he vanishes, he collapses to the ground into four parts.

[Christine]

Shut the up.

[Em]

As if he was just quartered. And apparently they're, like, bloody parts, too. It's, like, kind of gross, Rose.

[Christine]

He's like, what became of me? Oh, my God, that is so creepy, dude. What?

[Em]

It's so creepy. But again, finally, I mean, how many times do I say we saw a ghost standing there? At least he's doing something different.

[Christine]

I mean, and really, like, that's a direct correlation to his literal story.

[Em]

So.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

And also, like, he was not that great of a guy either. So I'm sure some people are kind of like, good. Good to know that that's what's happening in the afterlife for you. I don't know.

[Christine]

Yeah, good to know. I need to watch it in my own hallway.

[Em]

Yeah. Yeah, that's a great point. Imagine you're just, like, in your PJs, and you're like, bunny slippers. Get a glass of water. And you just have to.

[Christine]

It's Christmas morning. Oh, my God. Santa came. Oh, my gosh.

[Em]

I think that's the funniest thing you've said in a lot that makes up for that, Jill. I'll tell you that. That was good.

[Christine]

Thank God. I felt like I was trapped in a purgatory of my own design after that J. Jill joke.

[Em]

You know, I do get the Santa reference. I've. I've experienced that before.

[Christine]

Thank God. I try. I've. I'm so niche that I came all the way around and ended up with Santa Claus.

[Em]

You should never apologize. Niche or whatever. Blaze said, that's a good man.

[Christine]

It wasn't Blaze. It was his friend who said it. Oh.

[Em]

This whole time I was like, I'm so glad you married him. Now I'm like, you should marry that guy.

[Christine]

I know. And Blaze. Blaze said, nobody gets that joke.

[Em]

It did sound a little out of character, but I was like, sometimes Blaze does, like, really have some heavy hitters. He's so. I was like, he.

[Christine]

But he, he. He's. He's cautious with those. He doesn't want to give me the wrong idea. He doesn't want me going on with more and more niche. Niche Sims references around his friends where they have to pretend like they understand what I'm saying. He's like, cut it out.

[Em]

Actually, Allison knows better than to give me permission to be niche because then,

[Christine]

like, see what I mean?

[Em]

The floodgates open.

[Christine]

Yeah, but then, like, her friends are probably nice and like, yeah, you can be as niche as you want.

[Em]

Her friends are so nice and it's undeserved with the way that's what it is with them.

[Christine]

The Blaze's friend, where I'm like, I don't deserve that, but thank you for the kindness.

[Em]

I know that there's a text chain somewhere where Allison spends are like, what was that thing? What. What were we talking?

[Christine]

Did anybody else.

[Em]

Were you actually laughing at that? Because I didn't get it.

[Christine]

We all laughed at that.

[Em]

It's like, it's kind of funny how, like, nobody just said, I don't understand,

[Christine]

like, who is J. Joe anyway?

[Em]

Christine, oh, my God, look at your legs. They are so smooth.

[Christine]

Actually, they are. And they're. They're never. They're never.

[Em]

Look at this baby's bottom.

[Christine]

It really. You don't see that anymore. Actually, you only see it nowadays because instead of like, creat can only be described as a really painful and distressing situation. When I used to try to shave my knees. Now Flamingo is here to save the day. It really works so much better. And I've. I connected with a friend and we both were like, isn't it amazing? And I don't think that I've ever really cared that much about a razor. And I didn't even shave my legs for several years, but now I'm like, like, look at me go.

[Em]

Women's razors aren't actually made for women's bodies a lot of the time. So this one alone, the, the machinery of it is 10 out of 10.

[Christine]

Thank you.

[Em]

They have five sharp blades, a 360 degrees comfort system to help protect skin from irritation, and a flexible hinge to hug every curve. And also in this kit is a facial dermaplane razor, a foaming shave gel, a shower holder for your razor. And the whole kit is just $7

[Christine]

and shipping is free for a limited time. Our listeners can get the Flamingo starter set for only $7 at shop flamingo.com Drink this set includes the Flamingo Original Razor 1 5. Now I'm just feeling my leg. This, this set includes The Flamingo Original Razor 1.5 blade cartridge, a 1oz foaming shave gel and a shower holder. I swear by all of, all of the above. Just head to shop flamingo.com drink to claim this offer.

[Em]

After you purchase, they'll ask you where you heard about them. So please support our show and tell them that we sent you. So, yeah, he falls apart into four bloody pieces.

[Christine]

Oh my God.

[Em]

Even if Santa's there, which is crazy. So. And I also heard a different one source said that he only appears on his death anniversary. Which I never understand that when they say that annoys. He only appears on this day. I'm like, I'm pretty sure he's not checking his calendar in the afterlife. And I don't even think time means anything in the afterlife.

[Christine]

Like, yeah, I'm like, I guess I could understand it in a certain way if there were some sort of like, weird celestial imprint that the stars were like, sure, okay, whatever. But like the idea of like every year on the day of his death, I'm like, and also if that were

[Em]

fudgeing, true, I'm sorry, but like there would have been a camera crew in there ready to get evidence of that

[Christine]

on his death one of these days.

[Em]

Yeah, like if I, if we were going ghost hunting and they, they said only on his death day do you see him on the stairs. They'd be like, and we're sitting on the stairs all night until he appears otherwise.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

Like, I wonder.

[Christine]

I know, but I wonder if it's like, you know when you have like, say somebody in your family passes and like on their death anniversary, you might get like, signs, you know? Or you might get like. But. But that feels more personal. Like, that feels more like, oh, they're checking in on me to make sure I'm okay. Not like. Like, oh, he's back for his annual pantomime of his horrible murder. I mean, I don't know. It just feels like. Why would you do that? Sure, maybe he doesn't have a choice, I guess, but strange.

[Em]

Sure, that's a good point. Well, he's the one of the most popular ghosts there. I say the ghosts. There's two. How would I say this? I'm just gonna say ghosts two and three because they're part of the same story. There's a woman who haunts this castle called Lady Maude Plunkett, which just feels like a Mother Goose rhyme or something. Lady Maud Plunkett. Sound of trumpet or something

[Christine]

eating her crumpet. Yeah, it actually really works. It does.

[Em]

Before she married into the Talbot family. So that's how she ended up in this castle. She married a Talbot. Before that, she was engaged to another man named Walter Hussy. Love that.

[Christine]

Hello.

[Em]

Hey, girl. Happy pride. And Walter Hussy was also known as Lord Galtram because they always have to have a fancy name. And so Lady Mod Plunket and Lord Galtram, they were going to get married. However, on their wedding day, Lord Galtram died in battle. Which, like, why are you working on your wedding day?

[Christine]

He's like, hang on, I'll be right there.

[Em]

So I have to clock in real quick for a morning shift. I'll be back for the wedding.

[Christine]

Gotta get a quick shower before my wedding.

[Em]

So, like, that's the shower you need before your wedding. It's like, get in the pond and get all that blood off.

[Christine]

Please. Just, like, put your limbs back together. My God.

[Em]

So they say that he. There's two versions. One is that he died in battle. One is that he died in an ambush from. From rival people or something. But whatever. Either way, he was stabbed and died immediately, and he couldn't make it to his wedding. Very sad.

[Christine]

He couldn't make it. Couldn't make it.

[Em]

He was busy.

[Christine]

He. He was stabbed and died immediately, and he actually didn't make.

[Em]

And the worst part is he didn't get to the wedding.

[Christine]

This is the plot twist.

[Em]

So. But here's the. Here's the plot twist. Right after his wedding, like, within 24

[Christine]

hours, there was no wedding. What do you mean, right after. Right after the day.

[Em]

Right after the day where everyone was gathered except him, wondering where he was within, like, within 24 hours, right after his death, Mod marries another man. Yeah, that's the plot twist. And it was Mr. Talbot, which is how she ends up in the castle. And I guess it's interesting because the story, if I'm understanding it correctly, they. Her and Lord Galtram, had he not died, they were going to get married at the Talbots castle because the Talbots were like family friends in some way. Way. And then he didn't show up. She ended up marrying Mr. Talbot in his own castle within 24 hours. And I think, though, the reason why they were able to marry so quickly is because Mr. Talbot was also vying for the affection of Lady Maude Plunket. And Lord Galtram was the one that she ended up choosing between the two of them.

[Christine]

Did he get him killed?

[Em]

We don't know. But that's. That's part of the mystery.

[Christine]

I know.

[Em]

I mean, it's like she's in my castle marrying a different guy, and I'm in love with her. And if he's out of the picture, I can literally marry her in my own home. Today, with all of our families gathered, and he just casually happened to die today.

[Christine]

Accidentally today. Oops.

[Em]

I mean, I'm. I'm no Barbara Walters, but I'm pretty sure I've. I've got a finger on the pulse here.

[Christine]

I'm extremely confident about my take on this one. Know you.

[Em]

Yeah. So she. But.

[Christine]

But also, I guess I would need more context on this battle. Like, he died in battle and everyone was like, where is he? It's like, well, if there's a battle. What do you mean? Where?

[Em]

Like, yeah, or. Or he was ambushed. I kind of lean. I'm leaning more.

[Christine]

Cuz again, see, if it's an ambush, then I'm thinking, hello.

[Em]

The two versions are either it was in battle or he was ambushed by people and got stabbed,

[Christine]

which.

[Em]

Which I feel like the ambush is more likely. I mean, I don't think soldiers can, like, take time off from battle even today. But, like, I would imagine on your wedding day, you just, like, find a way to not get to work.

[Christine]

Strange. Like, what you battle. Like, wouldn't you post whatever.

[Em]

Wouldn't you at least say, like, count me out, folks. I'm not gonna be in this one wild timeline. I would like to know the military history of when people were like, expected to miss all.

[Christine]

When it's like, normal to just, like, be in a battle on your wedding day and accidentally die.

[Em]

Or even, like, even today, where it's like, you have to work around like a soldier's schedule because, like, they don't get to pick their days off or. I mean, I don't know. I don't. I really know nothing about like, how the military operates. But when the military. Before it was the military. I feel like in the 1700s, someone could just say, like, I'm not going to make it to this battle. Like there was. There was a time before there were all these strict laws, right?

[Christine]

But I bet you there were all sorts of weird, like, unwritten rules about like, oh, you would be. Then treat. It would be treason, dishonor, maybe. Maybe written rules. I don't know, like, you don't want to be drawn in quartered or whatever.

[Em]

Like that other guy. That's true. Anyway, so he ended up taking advantage of the situation be like, oh, don't cry that your husband's dead. Everyone's here for your wedding and I'm in love with you and you could be in this castle with me if we all got married right now.

[Christine]

It's really weird that I'm wearing a tuxedo that matches.

[Em]

It's so weird. I have a wedding ring in my pocket.

[Christine]

God. What? It's so crazy.

[Em]

So she ends up. A lot of sources say that she's the woman who was a maiden, widow and wife all in one day.

[Christine]

Whoa. Yeah, that's pretty wild.

[Em]

So Lady Plunket, she ends up, you know, not marrying the first guy. She ends up marrying Mr. Talbot.

[Christine]

Technically not a widow.

[Em]

That's what I'm saying. Okay, you're with me on this. But for the. The flare, I suppose people were like, well, she would have been a widow.

[Christine]

I get it's going to kill m. Just the way 791 years is not. Does not 800 years make. You know what I mean? It will ruin my story is really grinding your gears.

[Em]

Thank you for seeing me. I feel so. I feel heard.

[Christine]

I'm so glad. That's all I want.

[Em]

So after Mr. Talbot and. And Maude got married, he ended up dying. So now she's got the castle. Woohoo. She.

[Christine]

So now she's a widow.

[Em]

Now she's a widow and she's got a whole castle to herself. She ends up marrying a third man who's I guess, a judge in the area. But their relationship was very tumultuous. So this gets us back to the ghost. Lady Mod Plunket herself is a ghost ghost in the castle. A lot of people also see the ghost of her third husband, the judge, because I guess they were known to Be kind of toxic with each other. And people still hear them fighting for eternity.

[Christine]

Oh, how irritating.

[Em]

Exhausting.

[Christine]

I mean, really. Like, we can't.

[Em]

Exhausting.

[Christine]

Like, give it a rest. Literally.

[Em]

Some people say that you can hear people arguing in empty rooms. You hear doors slamming. People literally have seen Maude chasing after her husband when he's, like, leaving one of the rooms. So, like, she's like, following him like, the fight isn't over.

[Christine]

Bummer.

[Em]

Oh, exhausting. Exhausting.

[Christine]

Such a bummer.

[Em]

So you see the two of them, but you also. Ghost number four. You see Sir Walter Hussey, AKA Lord Galtram, the guy that died the day of his wedding.

[Christine]

Yep.

[Em]

He is now said to appear on the upper floors of the castle, sometimes holding his side where he was stacked stabbed or showing you his tab wound. No, thank you. Just point to it.

[Christine]

But we already saw a guy fall into four pieces. I think I've had enough of this for today.

[Em]

I think. Just show me with your words.

[Christine]

Just like, let's show and tell. Right? Let's show more tell.

[Em]

Just say it hurts right here.

[Christine]

Or like, yeah.

[Em]

Just because some one guy is falling into literal chunks doesn't mean we all need to be the gory.

[Christine]

We can all maybe realize that's not the energy that we. I feel like amplifying that guy made

[Em]

you think you have permission to also be a little over the top. But, like, we don't have to either.

[Christine]

Totally. Like, let's just take a breath first.

[Em]

Everyone breathe it out. Yes. So he sometimes shows you the stab wound or at least points to what hurts. He's often heard groaning, probably because he was stabbed to death. But others say it's because he's heartbroken that he had to watch his fiance marry so quickly after he. His death.

[Christine]

Yeah, no, I think he got stabbed is probably why I would say.

[Em]

I. There's a lot of reasons to groan, but probably first on the dome for me would be that I'm in pain.

[Christine]

Which one would take precedent in the moment? I would argue maybe the one that killed you.

[Em]

I agree with you. There's also a ghost called the White lady. And there's a woman in a white dress. I guess there's a painting of her in the castle. And the story goes that this is an unidentifiable woman painted by an unidentiful painter. It's just was found hanging in the castle.

[Christine]

Oh, that's kind of cool and creepy.

[Em]

Even creepier is that it's said that this woman in the white dress leaves her painting at night. And is seen wandering the castle. No.

[Christine]

And then they're like, who painted this? No, seriously. Painted this?

[Em]

Who the. Did you paint it with a curse? With your. With like a. With a blood spell, something?

[Christine]

Henry, if this was a third grade school project, I'm not going to be mad. But I need to know. We need to tell me honestly. Tell me.

[Em]

Me very clearly.

[Christine]

The magical painting is scaring everybody.

[Em]

Why are you giggling in the corner, Henry?

[Christine]

I don't like that.

[Em]

We don't like that.

[Christine]

I told you. Giggling in the corner.

[Em]

It said that the woman, she leaves her painting. The painting's apparently gone, but she is still seen. And I'm kind of wondering if this is the same ghost as Mod, because some versions were saying Mod can be seen still in her wedding gown. And so I'm like, well, then she's a lady in white. White. But when people know what Mod looks like versus like this random woman in a painting.

[Christine]

Endless thing we go through of like, well, who's who and are they the same or are they separate entities or do they like, merge?

[Em]

Yeah, that's kind of why I don't know if this is four ghosts or five. Because they say the lady in white or the white lady is. Is her own ghost. But I'm like, maybe it's. Maybe it's also mod. I know.

[Christine]

We just don't know, like appearing in two different spots or something. Yeah.

[Em]

So there might be more than five.

[Christine]

The.

[Em]

The white lady being one of them. Another random one is that there's a former worker who's seen on cold nights by the fire. There's. There's a lot of randos, but the. The last most popular one, his name is Puck and he was, as you recall from earlier, the Talbot's family Jester.

[Christine]

I didn't. You said, as you recall. Blank, blank, blank.

[Em]

Someone did. Someone was like, where the. Is the Jester?

[Christine]

Oh, took me till two seconds after the Jester mentioned that. I recogn what was happening. Okay, so the Jester, Puck. Interesting. Okay. Very on the nose. Got it.

[Em]

He was also the family watchman because I guess the castle was still used. I guess the Talbots and the King were still close. And the King would have the Talbots watch over political prisoners in their castle because they had a free dungeon. Free dungeon. Might as well put strange criminals in there. It is.

[Christine]

Wow.

[Em]

And so when the Jester wasn't feeling too silly, he was the fucking guard. He was a Met, but you know, security guards are funny as shit. So like.

[Christine]

Okay, but I have a question.

[Em]

He just Found a way to make two jobs out of it.

[Christine]

Do you think it was that way or do you think like, chicken egg, was it? Like, he was a security guard and then he just was like, just cracking these guys up, and they were like, maybe gotta come upstairs for dinner sometime. And like, really a few jokes.

[Em]

I can't imagine it was that way. Because I'd be like, this security guard's a little too chummy. A little too true.

[Christine]

I don't play. That's not your place. Yeah, yeah.

[Em]

I'd be like, you got to tighten that up. But they go. Could have also said, how about for 10 more bucks, you. You save that and you bring it upstairs when you're done down here. I don't know.

[Christine]

Totally save that energy. Don't give it. Don't give it away for free.

[Em]

Yeah, exactly. I don't know. I don't know what. What happened first, but he was somehow both. He contains multitudes, as we've learned.

[Christine]

Just like a Gemini, really. So relate to this guy.

[Em]

He lived in one of the towers. He oversaw the political prisoners. One of the people that was staying there that he was supposed to supervise was Lady Eleanora Fitzgerald, who was only there because she was like a rebel. She was just maybe inciting some riots or something. I don't know. She was protesting. Like. What do you mean? Like, she wasn't there for, like, a violent crime or anything. She just had some political.

[Christine]

Oh, she was in the. I don't know why. In my brain. She was just visiting the castle and he was meant to just, like, look after her. And then you said, and then I realized you're prisoner.

[Em]

She was technically visiting behind bars.

[Christine]

She was visiting against her will. Got it. Okay.

[Em]

So while Puck is supposed to watch her, he accidentally fell in love with her. Whoopsies.

[Christine]

Yuck. Okay.

[Em]

And, you know, she was getting a personal, like a private jesting event all the time. He was just there cracking jokes and being charming. And she was like, he's. He was suddenly the only thing separating us.

[Christine]

Wow. He was like, writing new material. And she's like. His friends were like, what's gotten into you? You know?

[Em]

Oh, my God. You know what's so funny, though? Imagine as a security guard, you know, like when you clock out here, you have to be a jester. You know that some of those prisoners. Prisoners were getting his, like, test out jokes. And that was part of the torture maybe, where they're like, oh, my God.

[Christine]

And that would be. Wouldn't it? And then, like, if something flops at dinner, at Least you have more torture for the next day at work. Like, if a joke flops for the king or whatever. I wonder, can go downstairs, you know,

[Em]

if I was held prisoner there and the person watching me is a guy trying to crack jokes. Oh, I'm laughing so hard. I'm like, oh, that's so funny.

[Christine]

Can you hold my hand? The one with the key in it?

[Em]

Like, it's so funny. Maybe we could be friends if only I survived. Maybe you could get me out of here.

[Christine]

Maybe I'll give you a smooch.

[Em]

Yeah, well, so he falls in love with Lady Eleanora Fitzgerald. And either he. We don't really know what happened, but I guess the story goes that they would have never been able to be together even if she wasn't a prisoner. I think, like, their status. He was never allowed to probably be with someone like her. Um, so either because he was devastated that he failed at his job of being a good overseer, or because he knew he could never be with her, and he was heartbroken. Some say he died by suicide.

[Christine]

Oh, dear.

[Em]

But others say that he was murdered, because all we know is he was later found in his tower, stabbed in the heart. Could have been like a Romeo Juliet situation where he tried to end it all. But someone else could have probably hurt him. Maybe one of the Talbots who knew that they were getting a little too close, and they felt like he broke loyalty or something with the family by being friends with a prisoner. And maybe that would insult the king, and then the king would have to yell at the Talbots about it or who knows?

[Christine]

Oh, my God. Yeah. That just. That feels a. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know what to. How to feel about this.

[Em]

Don't know how to place it.

[Christine]

Doesn't feel like a suicide. No sense. But.

[Em]

No. That's a pretty gruesome way to.

[Christine]

But also, like, the clown own, like, the jester archetype of, like. Like. I mean, this is. Talk about niche, but, like the Polyachi opera, you know? No. Okay.

[Em]

You're always just out of the way. You. You. And you always dive right back into, like, having to be questioned. What are you talking about?

[Christine]

There's an opera about a clown, and he is called Pagliacci. And he goes to the town doctor, and he says, doctor, Doctor, doctor, I'm so depressed. Nothing can cure me. And the doctor said to him, oh, I have just the thing. Have you heard the famous Polyachi is in town, and he is just the one to cheer you up. And the man said, But Dr. I am Polyachi.

[Em]

Oh, my God. Yeah.

[Christine]

So it's about a suicidal clown or, like, court jester clown guy.

[Em]

Oh, my God.

[Christine]

Well. Well, it was one of my childhood stories growing up. That's.

[Em]

That tracks for sure. Wow. That was really okay. Like, have to think about everything now.

[Christine]

So that was a story, Actually. My dad, every Christmas would read us a story about somebody dying. It sounds like a joke. It's not a joke. We'd read a story about either someone committing suicide or dying before, like, before saying their final words or, like, before getting their. Like, something just, like, really awful. Right. And so that was one of the stories. And it was always just very dark. But it was like the idea that, like, someone who entertains others can be very dark underneath and.

[Em]

Sure.

[Christine]

You know, I mean, also, that trope is there too.

[Em]

Yeah. It falls in the trope of, like. I mean, even, like a Robin Williams of, like, people who are.

[Christine]

Yes, the comedian. Exactly.

[Em]

Are experiencing.

[Christine]

I think maybe that would have been a more relevant reference for everybody to kind of cling on to.

[Em]

No, instead, you decided to say Jill Jack or Jill J. Or whatever.

[Christine]

Whatever.

[Em]

That wasn't risky enough.

[Christine]

Let's go with the poly flying, erratic, suicidal clown that's eating myself into the sun at this point. And we're not gonna find me ever again.

[Em]

You know what? I gotta give you a round of applause on your tenacity, though. You really say thank you.

[Christine]

Thank you.

[Em]

Let's find out. Let's find out together. Every time.

[Christine]

Let's fafo. Exactly.

[Em]

Right. You know what? And now we're all wiser. Now we know about Paliachi.

[Christine]

You're all a little more bummed out, though, though, too.

[Em]

And yet I feel the need to thank you.

[Christine]

Thanks. You're welcome.

[Em]

I don't really. You've really messed with all the ways that I think now.

[Christine]

It's just powerful.

[Em]

It's powerful stuff. Well, Puck was stabbed in the heart, and we don't know how, why, when. And he is still alive when he's found.

[Christine]

Oh, and he. Oh, no. Okay.

[Em]

And when they find him, he has some last words. Words. And they're not this is who did it to me or anything like that. Instead, apparently, this has to be flair created by a paranormal investigator. Instead, his last words are that he's going to haunt the castle until a Talbot man marries a woman of the people.

[Christine]

Oh, please.

[Em]

They can be a break. Until a Talbot finds love with someone for who they are, not because of societal expectations, because that's not what he could have with Lady Eleanor Fitzgerald.

[Christine]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Em]

He couldn't have have her first because of society. He apparently also added the caveat that while he haunts the castle, he'll never harm a Talbot.

[Christine]

He went, no, here's what happened. A Talbot killed him and said here's what his final words were. Weirdly, they're in my handwriting, but that's cuz I was just like noting them down as he said them.

[Em]

You nailed exactly what I was thinking.

[Christine]

Come on.

[Em]

Like who the hell. And you know, I was wonder because he's. He. I'm sure if a Talbot is the one who said that, who's like, no, no, no. He said all these really nice things about us.

[Christine]

Yeah, he loves us. He loves us.

[Em]

Whoever he told that to probably questioned it and went, I'm not going to with the guy who just stabbed someone in the heart. Yeah, he went, you're right. Oh, nice.

[Christine]

I'll spread the good news understanding. Let's all be in unison and say got it.

[Em]

He Yikes. So now he's deemed as like a protector of the castle. Castle. This, this Puck guy. He's also now often seen in photos. He likes to take pictures of people. He's been spotted around the property climbing the stairs or pacing outside. In the 1970s, he was the most active because that's when the castle was being cleared out and a lot of the contents were being sold out of the building. And that was. He did not like that. And how ghosts like don't like the change of him. So he was really, really showing up around then. But he to this day as a museum, he likes to play pranks on the staff. He said it'd be very mischiev this. He'll hide items, he'll tug on your shirt, lights will flicker. Other spirits that people see around here are a monk walking around and they hear chanting because there used to be an abbey nearby. They hear piano playing because a former resident who lived there was a piano player. And some rooms people hear knocking and rattling in the old dungeon. They hear crying and groaning. In the gardens, there are two phantom women that fade away to together. Gay Happy Pride together. And there's also a couple seen holding hands. I'm gonna pretend they're gay Happy Pride.

[Christine]

Same couple maybe. I don't know.

[Em]

They're holding hands. They fain to the mist. That'd be precious. And then there is the ghost of a man crouching. No thank you.

[Christine]

Okay, forget it.

[Em]

Investigators have gotten intelligent responses on spirit boxes and using evp. One ghost has one example of this is a ghost correctly Stated how many people were in the room when they asked for that information. There's a door in one of the rooms, I think in, like, the event space or the place that's now, like, a venue. There's a door that used to be Puck's door, I think, like, to his tower. I'm not sure. It was just where he maybe kept his jester toys. I don't know. But if you knock on it now, you're supposed to get good luck. Luck out of it.

[Christine]

That feels like a trap.

[Em]

That feels like a trap to me, too. It's like, I think you're just trying to. You're knocking on mischievous Puck's door to be like, oh, come with us.

[Christine]

It feels like an invitation. I'm not doing that.

[Em]

Yeah, it's. I. I feel like you're gonna make him do something playful.

[Christine]

You're summoning him, doesn't it? I feel like you're summoning him.

[Em]

And guess what happens? And guess who it happened to.

[Christine]

Don't even.

[Em]

Liz.

[Christine]

What?

[Em]

Apparently she went and did a tour here, knocked on Puck's door and lost her goddamn phone. She went. She knocked on his door, and this is a quote from her. He took my phone. Talking about Puck. He took my phone. They looked all over the castle for it. Then when we called it, it was in my dancer's pocket outside. Had transported outside of the castle.

[Christine]

That is trickster energy. That's huge. I mean, that's very Jester. Like, I would would say, which part

[Em]

of me is like, oh, well, maybe the dancer, like, always had in the pocket or played a prank or whatever. But in the interview, she says, like, I was just taking pictures with my phone. And then I.

[Christine]

No, Like, I feel like that's usually also, like, why would the dancer have Lizzo's phone? Like, that should not. I don't think that would happen. I feel like that would not happen. That's really weird. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I'm not gonna be knocking on that. No, thanks.

[Em]

So anyway, that is Malahide Castle.

[Christine]

That was so good.

[Em]

Thank you.

[Christine]

Yeah, I really like that. We got some, like, dark with the quartering and all that nonsense and I don't know, man, some of those. Would you go there overnight, do you think?

[Em]

I think so. I don't know.

[Christine]

I would know. Why. Something about castles, like, I just. I'm like, I don't know about staying overnight in a castle.

[Em]

Well, castles for me just freaked me out because there's like, if. If we're going to. To like, the Sally house here and the house is like, maximum 70 years old. It's different than when the. The house is a thousand years old and there's just so much more room for other ghosts. I don't know. It just so empty and cavernous. It feels really eerie.

[Christine]

And you would have, like. I mean, which is another problem we've ran into. Like, you would have, like, so many places. You'd need to, like, pare down where you would go and what logistical nightmare logistics. Oh, my. My God. I would be a little freaked out. I think. I think it's a little too big scale for me. I don't know. I think I'd rather experience a smaller, less, like, gory haunting as my first, like, castle experience.

[Em]

But agreed. Also, in a castle, I mean, you just know people died there.

[Christine]

Like, I know there's already a dark history in, like, any castle, it feels like.

[Em]

Or a dungeon, so they're suffering. It's. It's different than, like, oh, someone peacefully passed in their home and.

[Christine]

Yeah. Or like this family had it for so many years, and it was just filled with love and light and loss, but also love. No. Like, there's some war and battle and.

[Em]

And being a castle, it's probably really isolated from other things. You're in the woods.

[Christine]

Also the thing. And I feel like at night. That's so spooky, too. Okay, I'm gonna go pee, and then I'm gonna pull up my newspapers account and see if I can find the. And if I don't, I'm sorry. I'll say it in the episode. So that you don't, like, sign up for Patreon just to get that. And then it's, like, not there, but I'll say it after. We'll say it afterward. Find something else to talk about. If I can't find it, but I have a good feel. Feeling. Okay, so. See you in a minute. Now, this is interesting. According to cnbc, nearly half of hiring managers say a candidate's enthusiasm about the job is the most important factor when considering them for a role.

[Em]

When we hired Yvonne Zip recruiter, one of the things that we like the most about her is that she didn't waver at all. When we asked what sign she was,

[Christine]

she really came ghost with the facts.

[Em]

She was a believer in ghosts. I mean, she did seem enthusiastic. And I'm sure when she walked away, that was one of the reasons we both went. That's obviously not.

[Christine]

It was obvious and like, ziprecruiter put that person put Eva in the list because it was like, well, this is an obvious match. So if you need to hire for your business, how can you separate the candidates who are really excited about your opportunity from the ones that are just meh.

[Em]

Mm.

[Christine]

That's ZipRecruiter. ZipRecruiter has a new feature that quickly lets you see the most interested qualified candidates first so you meet the right people faster.

[Em]

And now you can try it for [e-mail] Drink ZipRecruiter's new feature puts the most interested qualified candidates at the top of your list. You can use Zip Recruiter and find enthusiastic talent fast. And four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. Again, exactly what happened to us.

[Christine]

It really is. And apparently it's just better than ever now. So I'm kind of curious what would happen if we tried again, but I don't want to, you know, lightning doesn't strike twice or whatever. Let's just. We'll quit while we're ahead. And now you can try it for free at ziprecruiter.com drink that's ziprecruiter.com drink meet your match on zip code recruiter Christina.

[Em]

Are you hungry? Not me, because I had hungry roots. I had hungry root. And I'll tell you, this tummy is a full.

[Christine]

It's not like a traditional one meal and it's portioned. Whatever. It's like, oh. But we also know that in the afternoon, you seem to need, like a pick me up, preferably with chocolate in it, you know, and it's like they'll add that to the box to be like, don't worry, we know already. It, like, kind of learns with you on, like, how your taste and dietary needs change, tailors it to you and, like, what works best for your family. Of course, Leona's tastes are rapidly changing and devolving and evolving, but mostly devolving all the time. And hungry Weird is really good at, like, taking that into account.

[Em]

Yeah. With over a thousand grocery items like smoothies, snacks, sweets, salad kits, ready to eat meals, even supplements, they have a little bit of anything that you could possibly need. And even if you have kids whose opinions and tastes are this way and that away, or mine, I'm also picky. Every now and then I got a different thing going on. And hungry. It's like, they're there. I got you.

[Christine]

I. No, I was into salads last month and I was like, can you help? And they were like, please sit down. We got this.

[Em]

You're going to love Hungry Root as much as we do. For a limited time, get 40% off your first order plus get a free item in every box for life. Go to hungryroot.com drink and use code drink.

[Christine]

That's hungryroot.com drink code drink to get 40% off your first box and a free item of choice. Your for life. So if you did not listen to the last half of last week's episode, I do not blame you because it was a rather unhinged episode. It was our birthday episode, so it's allowed to be unhinged and it was extra unhinged. But during my part, I had. I briefly mentioned that I was going to be covering the Gemini twins, but I wasn't going to get to it last episode. So instead we talked about true crime astrology, which was really fun. And if that's not your bag, you know, that's totally fine because I'm gonna cover the Gemini twin story today instead.

[Em]

I'm so excited. This. Yeah. I remember you saying that you were gonna cover this, and then we yapped so much. You were like, I'll do it next time.

[Christine]

So I was like, actually, do you want to be here till 11pm no. Me neither. Okay. And the whole world went, no. And I said, okay, okay, okay, fine. So we went over a lot more in depth instead into the astrology of serial killers and true crime. And it was a fun conversation. You know, we had fun. I mean, you were there.

[Em]

I mean, I was there, but I thank you for reminding me because it has been like a week, so.

[Christine]

It has been a whole week. And you know how we are with time. We had fun. I'm pretty sure we had fun. We had fun. I think it was a good time. This is a story of the Gemini twins, and it is actually pretty good. I didn't do this on our birthdays because they're not actually Geminis.

[Em]

Oh, yeah. I'm glad that this isn't.

[Christine]

And I think that would have kind of damp. It would have dampened the mood. So I was already kind of bracing for like, a little bit of, like, oh, I gotta kind of give you some.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Downer news that, like, the theme isn't even really on theme. But it's perfect now because they're not even Gemini to begin with. So that's just what they're called. And I'm going to tell you why. Anthony center, he was born on March 31, so he's actually an Aries 1955 in Brooklyn. He was the son of Michael Center, a Northern Italian immigrant. And then it just says in the. In basically any source and his wife. So that's nice.

[Em]

You know what? I. So far, I. I'm a little offended, but maybe it's best that she's not involved in. In this.

[Christine]

I think you're right. I think you're.

[Em]

Maybe she doesn't want to be involved.

[Christine]

You know what she's like to take my name out of it, actually.

[Em]

Wife, period.

[Christine]

Yeah, I'll be the wife.

[Em]

Might as well put X in front of it while you're at it. I don't know.

[Christine]

Oh my God. Power move. So Anthony grew up in a turbulent home where his parents divorced when he was 8 years old and then remarried each other again. Sorry, Trigger warning to M. And only M. Because Anthony and M are the only people who have ever experience your parents marrying each other again. Which, like, I've experienced that, but it was a really vivid nightmare I had.

[Em]

That was. I don't. That was. I don't even know what the right word is, but well done. That really. It felt personal, not like an attack. It just felt like, oh my God, you thought of me like, I don't know, like there's something so sick with me.

[Christine]

It was not derogatory. It was, but it was also not not derogatory.

[Em]

I just feel it's so. Like there's something so twisted about me. I just felt so thought of all of a sudden. I was like, oh my God.

[Christine]

Yeah, well, because I was like, yeah, because I mean, hello. Like that's not an experience that most people go through. And so when I see someone else experiencing that, I'm like, hey, I know someone who went through that.

[Em]

Put us in touch, cuz I have things to talk about.

[Christine]

Well, I don't think I'm going to do that. So you'll find out why already.

[Em]

Sounds like he's a member. Okay.

[Christine]

It sounds like he might just be.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

So yeah, he grew up in a turbulent home. Um, trigger warning to M only. Where his parents divorced and then remarry each other. So I guess turbulent home is a good word for what we're experiencing. Okay, sure, yeah. Dur. During his youth, Anthony worked for his father's debris removal business and his Uncle Robert's carting firm, the Canarsie Recycling Company, which had mob ties to the Gambino and Colombo crime family families. Okay, so on July 24, 1977, Anthony married an Italian American woman in Canarsie, Brooklyn. And the wedding was attended by prominent mob figures. So you can see he's almost like Born into this like mob family and they're attending his wedding. Whole nine yards. The Gambino crime family soldier Roy Albert demeo was one of the attendees. Ease. And he is going to come back into the picture shortly. But real quick, I want to jump over to the other Gemini twin who's also glaringly not a Gemini, but is instead an Aquarius. And you know, I can also speak to that if I have to, but Aquarius, Aries energy is interesting because it's sort of like Aquarius is also an air sign like we are. So there is a little bit of that, like fanning the flames energy.

[Em]

Sure.

[Christine]

And at this point, they haven't connected yet and we're gonna see like them connect. So.

[Em]

And remind me again what Anthony's was, what sign he was.

[Christine]

He's an Aries.

[Em]

He's also an Aries. Okay, gotcha.

[Christine]

No, no, Joseph Testa is an Aquarius.

[Em]

Sorry, but the, the other guy that we talked about.

[Christine]

Oh yeah, the other guy's an Aries.

[Em]

Okay, Aries and Aquarius. Got it.

[Christine]

Yes, yes. So Joseph Carmine Tested Jr. Was born on January 24, 1955. And you. York City. He was one of nine children born to an Italian American transport truck driver father and his wife, period. Actually, it says a housewife mother.

[Em]

And I went, oh, wow, that's even worse.

[Christine]

It's getting a little weird somehow. It's worse.

[Em]

Actively not including her in any of this.

[Christine]

Some dumb. We'll put that instead.

[Em]

Okay, Big B. Yeah.

[Christine]

Joseph's home life became highly turbulent as well in other ways. And he became a juvenile delinquent after his mother died of a sudden blood clot when he was only 13 years old. One of Joseph's younger brothers, Patrick, who went by Patty Testa, also became involved in the crime lifestyle very young. He became pretty quickly a professional car thief and and then graduated into a real life mobster. As a teenager, Joseph worked as a carpenter's helper and as an apprentice butcher. And that of course gave him some mighty fine skills of carving up dead things. Noted, noted. Anthony and Joseph grew up on the same block in Canarsie, Brooklyn. And it feels a little too much like the universe could have maybe, maybe stepped in and separated them a few blocks and maybe all this wouldn't have happened. But whatever.

[Em]

Did they. You were probably gonna say this already. Did they know each other growing up or is it convenient that they were neighbors?

[Christine]

No, they knew each other. They were close friends. So they grew up like on the same block, became BFFs and both of them Dropped out of high school and co founded an auto theft and marijuana distribution ring. Fine.

[Em]

Okay, well, we start doing something with our lives. Lives like the world's hard, okay?

[Christine]

It's called being an entrepreneur.

[Em]

That's right. That's exactly right. Nothing else.

[Christine]

Now, they had help from Joseph's little brother Patty. Remember the expert car thief? So now they have this trio of, like, very skilled in multiple different ways across the board. Trio of young men who were, like, just looking to create problems. Sure. And steal stuff. Okay, so by 1970, they're 15 years old at this point. Okay. Just to give some context. Oh, my new Fallout Boy T shirt was delivered. Okay.

[Em]

Speaking of bisexual clothing, I'm really happy for you.

[Christine]

You know, the dumbest part is I was already like, I wonder how short I should cut the sleeves. Okay.

[Em]

Oh, my God. I know.

[Christine]

I'm. I know. I know you're correct.

[Em]

I think you're just gonna cut them off. That's what I. My feeling is. Off. What do you. Or what are you thinking?

[Christine]

I'm thinking like a little.

[Em]

Just like a little. Like a little flare.

[Christine]

A little. I think I'm gonna want a little. Just a little flare.

[Em]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, you do.

[Christine]

Angular flare.

[Em]

Start there, and if we don't like it, we get it. Cut it shorter. So.

[Christine]

Thank you. You know, and I'm. I'm working on the biceps. We'll get there someday. Snow rush. Okay. Anyway, they become close friends, drop out of high school, create this auto theft and marijuana distribution ring, and they have this sidekick of Patty, the little brother. So by 1970, at age 15, Anthony and Joseph have already been arrested multiple times for car theft. But because they were so young, it was pretty much dismissed every time. And now I want to get into why they're called the Gemini Twins. And part of the reason is that they. They sort of became. And this is like, pretty twisted thinking now, like, okay, first of all, fuck you for calling them Gemini twins. But whatever. They became really, really codependent with each other, like, really entwined. And, like, I mean, you could say, speaking of Fallout Boy, maybe this is a fully outdoor situation. Not really, because they weren't, you know, in psychosis. So I don't want to act like that was what was happening, happening. But essentially, they became known as the Gemini twins because they were, like, fanatically loyal to each other. And they were basically like twin. I mean, they were like twins. Twin flames. I don't know what you want to call it. Yeah, they were like, almost like they had, like.

[Em]

Like a twin bond. Like or yes, yes.

[Christine]

Like it was written in the stars. Yeah, it felt very like meant to be. Especially them growing up on the same block, being the same age, dropping out of high school at the same time, having the same niche and interest of carjacking and theft.

[Em]

I mean, you can't get much better than that.

[Christine]

I know, it's beautiful. Really? Yeah. So remember, they're only 15 and so when a 13 year old neighbor of theirs. So a friend was threatened with a knife by a man from East New York. And I am assuming race plays into this. It's not fully clear, but they do mention he was a Puerto Rican man. And I think with the mob ties there was, you know, some, some back and forth. It's more layers to this than just like, oh, he was harassing our friend. But essentially they find out that this man had threatened their neighbor with a knife. So they organize the neighborhood group, the neighborhood kids, they borrow a car and they spent the entire day searching the streets until they locate and confront this man and presumably, presumably, you know, beat him up or what have you.

[Em]

Sure.

[Christine]

So in 1973, they're now about 18 years old. Joseph got into a bar fight and he was nearly killed by an opposing gang member. This gang member stabbed him, puncturing his lung and leaving him with chronic respiratory difficulties for the rest of his life. And Tony Anthony, when he heard out, heard about this. This in a direct act of retaliation, track down the assailant and beat him nearly to death with his bare hands. Like this is how, like loyal. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Em]

Wow.

[Christine]

So because they spent so much time together and frequented also a place called the Gemini Lounge, it just became a very easy transition for people to call them the Gemini twins. And this is. Everybody from law enforcement called them the Gemini twins. Twins to like underground mob.

[Em]

Sure.

[Christine]

Folks called them the Gemini twins. I went on astro club.com to type in their kind of compatibility just to see. Yeah. And it says here what happens when fiery, impulsive Aries meets cool, quirky Aquarius. You get a whirlwind of innovation, a dash of rebellion and potentially a love story for the ages. And I went happy pride maybe.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Or at least a very interesting chapter. Instant intellectual connection. Aquarius loves Aries bright mind. Mutual admiration for each other's independent spirit. Spirit. Aries is drawn to Aquarius's unique perspective. Aquarius is intrigued by Aries boldness. They're both forward thinkers who are not afraid to challenge the status quo. This shared rebellious streak can be a major bonding point.

[Em]

Literally. That's interesting way to put that considering

[Christine]

we're talking about like crazy town. And I mean, I had that in there because last week was going to be the astrology week. But like, it's still really. I mean, to me, I find that very interesting. But in any case, Anthony and Joseph were introduced at this. What, Remember the. At the wedding? This guy Roy Demeo showed up at the wedding. So Anthony and Joseph were introduced to this guy. He's like a high up, big guy in the mob. Harvey. Chris Rosenberg, a Canarsi gangster, introduced them to Roy DeMeo in 1966. Or, sorry, he had met him in 1966 while dealing cannabis at a gas station, as you do. And initially Chris, who. Who introduced them to Demeo. Chris hired Anthony and Joseph for minor tasks like washing his Corvette and his Porsche and like occasionally stealing a car to. Yeah, you know, just starting.

[Em]

Him starting out small. Starting out small.

[Christine]

Yeah, he's like door dashing and also like, like lifting cars. Yeah. So by 1974, now at age 19, Anthony and Joseph officially joined Roy De Mayo's crew. And this was like a big deal, right? So this guy who's like hired them for small jobs is like, let me, let me introduce you to the big fella.

[Em]

And you know, you've earned, you've earned your place in introduction, introducing yourself to something.

[Christine]

Exactly. And now you prove yourself from here on out. And so that's what happened. Yeah, they met, they joined Roy's crew. They operated actually out of the Gemini Lounge and the lounge itself, the bar. It was this blue collar neighborhood bar on Flatlands Avenue in Canarsie, Brooklyn. The crew expanded to include a few more guys, including. Now this is where I included all their names because they all have a. Joey.

[Em]

Joey the Mutt.

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. Okay. Joseph Dracula, Julie Elmo. That's Roy's cousin.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

In case you're wondering. Okay.

[Em]

Dracula feels a little too flamboyant for me. I feel like they've all got to

[Christine]

be like, Dracula was a shock to me.

[Em]

Yeah, yeah, it's got to be like Pete the Killer.

[Christine]

Yeah, it felt really out there. Yeah. Dracula, gmo. Henry Borelli, Frederick Denome, Vito Arena. Okay. So actually a lot of these are just Italian name names, but they still

[Em]

sound imposing, don't they? Yeah.

[Christine]

The one, I think one of them was called Money Maker. Like there were just some wild, like very 70s 80s.

[Em]

Like, I wish I knew what art. What we would be called if we got a cool nickname from a gang.

[Christine]

It wouldn't be cool.

[Em]

I feel like it'd be something like The Mouth. Like. Like the mouth.

[Christine]

Oh, my God.

[Em]

Podcasters, like the Yappers. I don't know.

[Christine]

We'd be like, we're the Gemini twins. And they'd be like, literally, stop.

[Em]

Christine the Mouth right there. Yeah.

[Christine]

Christine the Mouth is so true. I'd be like, broad of broadcast. And they'd be like, get the Mouth out of here. Silence the mouth. Okay, so the crew expanded to include a few more guys. Dracula, Henry Barelli, Vito Carlo. Anyway, within this structure, Anthony gave gained a reputation for providing the crew with significant revenue through his coordination of auto theft and international chop shop rings. And I like to think he put that on his LinkedIn bio because it is so well, well written. I mean, absolutely. God, he's got a. He's really got, like an elevator pitch for himself, you know? So despite Tony's commercial success as what they called the money maker, he was highly disliked by Albert de Meo, Roy's son, who stated, quote, there was something slick and phony about him. Now, this is messy, right? Like, you have the big mob boss, boss, and then the mob boss's son is suspicious and jealous of you. But the mob. But your dad has taken him under his wing. Like, this is messy already.

[Em]

Immediately, there's gonna be a problem.

[Christine]

Egos are, like, on alert. You know, they are sensitive. They are fragile. So things escalate rapidly here. Just hold on tight. On April 19, 1979, Roy demand Romeo. So, like top dog, he publicly executed college student Dominic Raguchi after mistaking him for a Cuban hitman.

[Em]

Oh, that's a. That's a. That's an oopsie daisy right there.

[Christine]

It's a really bad one. So to avoid the immediate police crackdown, of course, the crew went to hiding and Anthony and Joseph fled to California.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

Shortly thereafter, on May 11, 1979, Chris Rosenberg was executed by Roy as restitution to a Cuban drug cartel. Cartel that Chris Rosenberg had defrauded. And Chris Rosenberg, remember, is the one who had introduced them.

[Em]

Chris is the one who introduced them.

[Christine]

So Chris was the one who had hired them for, like, clean my Porsche and clean my car or whatever. And, like, I'll introduce you to the big man. Okay. So then the big man had him executed.

[Em]

I see. Okay. Got it, got it, got it.

[Christine]

Yeah. So, like, messy on every level.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

So they executed. Executed him as restitution to a Cuban drug cartel that Chris Rosenberg had defrauded. So it was like a punishment, quote, unquote, for defrauding this. This cartel they were working with. Following Chris Rosenberg's murder Joseph then took on as the role of Roy's primary lieutenant and right hand man.

[Em]

Big promotion.

[Christine]

Big promotion. And especially to execute the one who was serving that position and then be like, step right up.

[Em]

Yeah. Horrifying.

[Christine]

It's like, okay, got it.

[Em]

So I could just die at any minute. Got it.

[Christine]

I guess in that case, you're already kind of in that mindset, you know, you're like, I might as well go all the way to the top, you know?

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

So he took that over, which was obviously the position held by Chris previously and the crew at this point. Like when in this. What do you call it, in this iteration of the crew, they were suspected of committing somewhere between 75 and 200 murders. Murders.

[Em]

Wow.

[Christine]

Yeah. And they had a routine. They had a whole process. Okay. The crew perfected this precise routine to dispose of bodies known as the Gemini method.

[Em]

Oh, okay.

[Christine]

This is a lot of Gemini slander as far as I'm concerned. But.

[Em]

But as a Gemini, I'm curious what this means. I'm pretty.

[Christine]

You're also like, like, oh my God,

[Em]

we're talking about me again.

[Christine]

Okay, what's up? There is a fall out boy line. Hold on, Hear me out. There's a fall boy line. It goes. I don't care what you think as long as it's about me.

[Em]

Damn. Well, right now, I mean, I agree with that. Right now, in this case, I agree with that.

[Christine]

I even have a T shirt speaking of. That says the best. And then the next line is, the best of us can find happiness in misery. That's the next line. I know, listen, it's really good stuff. So the Gemini method. Okay, so there could be a lot of hilarious memes here with Gemini method. Hahaha. Okay. Leave us alone.

[Em]

Christine said don't even try it.

[Christine]

Don't even get me started. So I can just hear you right now. Okay. The crew perfected a precise routine to dispose of bodies known as the Gemini method. To prevent the discovery of physical evidence and eliminate the corpus delicti under Roy Demeo's famous motto, no body, no crime.

[Em]

Okay, can I guess the Gemini method? As a Gemini, absolutely. You may immediately remove teeth and fingers, fingerprints.

[Christine]

Oh my God. That's just horrific. I did not think that you were gonna just go right there, but wow.

[Em]

Okay. Am I wrong? If you're trying to get rid of evidence, right. You get rid of dental records and fingerprints. So chop off their hands. Chop. Get rid of their teeth. No. Did I say that too quickly?

[Christine]

Is it suspicious? Here's what I'll say. It's just so, so much more gruesome and detailed that I don't. I don't even think so.

[Em]

It's just, like. It's. Okay.

[Christine]

I think what you're saying is correct, but it's also, at some level, like, amateur hour.

[Em]

Sure. I don't even know if that's the Gemini way. That's just, like, classic murdering and trying to hide the body. Right.

[Christine]

Maybe that's what that is. Maybe. But. No, but you're. I mean, you're right. Like, that was the idea to. To. But wow, you really shocked me when you said, like, take the teeth out. And I went, wait, whoa, whoa. And then I realized, oh, we're getting rid of me.

[Em]

I'm part of a true crime podcast and almost 500 episodes, and I think I know to remove the teeth by now.

[Christine]

You know, I think maybe you do, and I think maybe you're onto something, and maybe you will really regret hearing the rest of this information. Okay. Because, you know, contains.

[Em]

I was gonna say it's my. My payment for making you listen to being drawn and quartered again.

[Christine]

You know, I was actually gonna say I was a little bit upset by that drawn and quartered information. And then I realized what I'm about to tell you is so much. So.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

It's. It. Well, it's not even darker. I guess it's not darker because.

[Em]

Well, I hope let's find out together.

[Christine]

It's not for me to say. It's not for me to say, but it's not more as much about the torture, I guess I would say, as it is about the disposal of the bodies, but it is take me out

[Em]

wise, take me on a journey.

[Christine]

Gruesome, gruesome.

[Em]

You know, Father's Day is coming up, and for those of us who either have father figure, narrator, our life, a father who is around, a father. Maybe we have multiple fathers. I know I have Allison's dad. I now have to add into the group with my stepdad and a lot of men in our lives over here, maybe get themselves a story worth for Father's Day.

[Christine]

Yeah, I feel like that's such a nice sentiment, especially if it's somebody that, like, has been a father figure to you and you want to get to know them on a deeper level. Em and I have given this to multiple people throughout our lives, and I feel like it's always just such a fun gift. Basically, what happens is each week's story where sends a question to this person about their life, and they'll respond however they want. Writing Back over email or web. They have voice recording now, which is awesome. And new this year, they have a guided phone call so you don't have to, like, rely, especially if it's somebody older or somebody who's not comfortable with, like, the tech part. Yeah, it's like they feel like, oh, you're inviting me to share.

[Em]

New this year, Storyworth's unlimited plan. You can buy it once and you can give Storyworth memoirs to friends and family all year. It comes with all their newest features and multiple full color book copies, so.

[Christine]

Oh, that's so cool.

[Em]

This year, give dad a gift that captures who he really is before the stories get harder to remember.

[Christine]

Father's day is Sunday, June 21st. Order right now and save up to $20 at storyworth.com drink save up to

[Em]

$20 at Storyworth.com drink that's storyworth.com drink.

[Christine]

The crew used a specialized toolkit containing guns, ropes, knives, ice picks, and saws, following a strict sequence of steps.

[Em]

Ice picks really got me. Okay, let's go. Oh, let's go first.

[Christine]

The victim was lured through a side door of the Gemini Lounge into the the flat and shot once in the head with a suppressed pistol. A towel was instantly wrapped around the victim's head to contain blood flow.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

Another crew member would immediately plunge a knife into the victim's heart, stopping the heartbeat to halt blood pressure and prevent massive hemorrhaging from the head wound.

[Em]

Okay. So far, we're like, it's. It's mercy killing. And then we're like, trying to stay scientifically as clean as possible.

[Christine]

Mercy killing is an interesting way to put it.

[Em]

I know I. As I said it, I went. But at least it's like, let's put this way, coming from someone who just described, like, being drawn and quartered and it's like nothing but pain. I was like, at least, like, right to the head is at least comparatively, between the two situations, probably an easier way to go.

[Christine]

You're right. It's very humane. Pasture race.

[Em]

Yeah, I hear, I hear, I hear. I know.

[Christine]

Just kidding.

[Em]

I know it's fucked up. I'm sorry. Okay.

[Christine]

No, no, no, no, no. Yeah, it is fucked up. There's really nothing else to say.

[Em]

I don't really condone what they're doing, but, like, you know.

[Christine]

Well, yeah, I would think not. But yeah, the. It's fascinating to the stop the heartbeat.

[Em]

I mean, it sounds like a doctor told them to do that, which is. That's what I'm saying. Scientific.

[Christine]

But do you remember he worked as a Butcher, he had, like, anatomical knowledge, and who knows if that's his skill he brought to the table or if this is something they would just know as crime bosses. I.

[Em]

So horrible.

[Christine]

But, I mean, I know it, and I. I didn't want to, so. You know, it happens sometimes. You just know things.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

The body was then dragged to the bathroom, hung over the bathtub. Okay, see, this is where I'm getting the butcher shop stuff again.

[Em]

Yeah, yeah. Just let the blood drip.

[Christine]

Starting to really feel. Yeah, yeah, it's starting to feel like that was. That's what's happening. The body was dragged to the bathroom, hung over the bathtub, and allowed to bleed out down the shower drain. Oh. So that the remaining blood would congeal, making dismemberment yellow easier.

[Em]

I mean, trying to. Trying to take all feeling out of this. Make sense. It is strategic.

[Christine]

Well, I mean, I think it's just how you butcher an animal, probably.

[Em]

Yeah. Well, I've never even really thought about how do you butcher an animal, so. Okay. Makes sense why they do it with animals, too.

[Christine]

I. I'm assume. I mean, I don't know either, really, but I. It is very d. A lot of this seems very similar. To prevent forensic trace evidence on their clothes, clothing, crew members frequently executed this process in their underwear. Okay, now, that part feels like Gemini to me. That's where I'm starting to understand the connection. But that and only that.

[Em]

I. It's interesting because I would have thought more Dexter, where it's like, put everything in, like, a plastic tarp, including yourself, and. But naked. To me, I guess that makes sense.

[Christine]

But gotta remember, this is also, like, the 60s, so I don't know that we have, like, Saran wrap at this point is probably, like, the newest thing on the block, you know, I guess

[Em]

my thought was, like, if we're trying to, like, if we're worried about, like, remnants of it being on us, to do it all naked so there's nothing but blood on us feels kind of counterintuitive. But I don't know. I don't know why I'm overthinking. I don't.

[Christine]

I'm assuming if there are this many steps, that there's probably a cleaning process afterward. You know?

[Em]

I. I mean, sure, you're right.

[Christine]

If they were able to get away with 75 to 200, I don't know.

[Em]

They clearly knew what they were doing, unfortunately.

[Christine]

Yeah, unfortunately. So. G. God. Okay. So crew members frequently executed this process in their underwear. Fifth, the congealed corpse. That's a horrible word. The congealed corpse was placed onto a plastic swimming pool liner. So you were right on that front. Spread across the living room floor. Using butcher's tools, the crew systematically cut the body into manageable pieces, with Anthony once reportedly sawing a single body into nine separate pieces. Like, reportedly, like, they're bragging. It's just so gross.

[Em]

Yeah, yeah. They're like, yeah.

[Christine]

6. The body parts were placed in plastic bags, packed in cardboard boxes, and transported to Brooklyn's Fountain Avenue landfill. And you remember they have ties to the recycling, right? Landfill. Yeah.

[Em]

Wasn't that a thing? And like the Sopranos or something, where it's like, you. You work for the landfill or like.

[Christine]

Oh, probably. I mean, that feels right.

[Em]

Yeah, yeah. There's something about like you're. You have a connection to a dump site.

[Christine]

Yeah, that's kind of exactly what seems to be happening here. The massive volume of daily waste deposited at the dump made finding the remains virtually impossible, leading authorities to abandon a planned federal excavation because it was deemed too costly and unlikely to loc evidence. So they're sort of saying, like, that's not even worth it. Good luck finding it, you know? Yeah, like there. Yeah, it's not even worth it. Cooperating witness Vito arena later testified in federal court about a 1979 dismemberment of two car ring members inside a dark building. Vito stated that during the dismemberment, Roy said, we have to cut them up. And then Roy instructed me and Henry Borelli, believe it or not, to go and buy some pizza for everyone.

[Em]

Oh, my God.

[Christine]

God, it's just like, so gruesome, like,

[Em]

and also, like, maybe the. Maybe the ordering pizza was like, just get out of here so you don't have to witness anything. But it also feels like, is it as casual? It's like, oh, we're just gonna get pizza after this because, like, we don't even think about this.

[Christine]

I think it's more like, you're the interns. Go get the pizza. We're doing all this hard work.

[Em]

But that's. That's wild that you could eat after that. It's like I would never be able.

[Christine]

Agreed. Really? Agree. Agreed.

[Em]

Oh, my God.

[Christine]

Andre Katz, a 22 year old auto mechanic, became the crew's first documented murder and dismemberment victim. So Andre had purchased a stolen vehicle from the crew and after being arrested, began cooperating with a grand jury. And when they found out that he was, like, cooperating and would potentially testify, Blaming Chris Rosenberg for his legal character troubles, he was beaten first and his brother Victor later testified that he claimed the two assailants were Joseph and Anthony. But he himself wasn't in court, because on Friday, June 13th of 1975, the crew had their female associate, Babette. Okay, I know Babette. Judith Questle. They had her successfully lure Andre to her apartment to complex for what he thought was a date.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

Upon arrival, he was forcefully abducted by Chris Rosenberg, Henry Borelli, Joseph, and Anthony and transported to the meat department of a Pantry Pride supermarket in Rockaway Beach, Queens, where Roy Deo was waiting.

[Em]

Gotcha.

[Christine]

Andre was stabbed multiple times in the heart and back with a butcher knife by Chris Rosenberg in revenge for a prior shooting that had disfigured Chris Rosenberg's face. Once dead, his body was stripped of his clothes and dismembered by Roy and Joseph, leveraging their training as butcher apprentices. The head was severed and placed through a commercial machine normally used for compacting cardboard boxes. Oh, shit.

[Em]

That's so really, like out of the Sopranos or some shit. Like.

[Christine]

Yeah, because, like, you think about having a dump at your disposal and sure, you'd have the tools for that too.

[Em]

Trash compactor. My God.

[Christine]

So, yeesh. Okay. The wrapped remains were deposited in the supermarket dumpster where a pedestrian walking a dog spotted one of Andre Katz's legs lying on a curb near the store. And wouldn't you know it, the body had to be identified using dental records. So you were on to something it that they didn't seem to figure out.

[Em]

I am shocked that that's the Gemini method, because I thought surely you wouldn't just take nine chunks of a person and then just put them in a box. Like, I would think you would take those smaller chunks of a person and then like, burn them or something.

[Christine]

That was their fur. That was their first identified victim.

[Em]

Oh, oh, oh.

[Christine]

So I think that was, like, before they've developed a method to this craziness. Like, I think that was just the first. The early example of, like, their first victim. And then it kind of just continued on from there.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

Yeah. He was the first documented of dismembered and murdered and dismembered. And then they started, like, creating a process around that. So here we go. Joseph and Henry Barelli were arrested, but they secured an acquittal in January 1976. So the murder remained a core target for federal investigators. Frank Amado was a Gambino associate married to Constance Castellano, the daughter of Gambino family boss Paul Castellano. Yeah, in a traditional old world style wedding. Now talk about time machine. I Want to take a time machine

[Em]

to that wedding, Truly.

[Christine]

Following the marriage, Paul Castellano set Frank Amato up in business as an Italian ice distributor, which quickly failed. Frank was put to work as a butcher at Dial Meat Purveyors and the meat market franchises managed by Paul Castellano's son, Joseph and Philip. And now that they had all of this access, they were, like, expanding. And at these supplier sites, Frank Amato and other books, butchers would also do some, like, really nasty tactics, like, with the food. So they would bleach tainted, outdated and uninspected meats to, like, try and keep them looking fresh. Yeah, it's not. It's really nasty. So they would bleach tainted, outdated and uninspected meats using formaldehyde and a preservative powder known as dynamite to put red color back into the meat. And they used counterfeit USDA stamps and labeled meat as beef or pork without actually verifying what it was.

[Em]

Yum, yum.

[Christine]

Oh, my God. Oh, my God. So I tell you all this about Frank Amado because fearing that Frank Amato would cooperate with federal agents and angered by reports that Frank Amado had made unwanted sexual advances toward female employees, Paul Castellano said, he's gotta die. Roy Demeo shot Frank Amato to death with a machine gun.

[Em]

Oh, my God.

[Christine]

And I know. And Roy, Henry Barelli, Anthony, Joseph, and Frederick and Richard Denomi dismembered the body. The remains were then loaded into Richard denome's cabin cruiser and dumped several miles out to Sea. In 1986, Marat Belugala, the leader of the Russian mafia in Brighton beach, operated a multi billion dollar gasoline bootlegging scam. And after being extorted by the Colombo family, Marat agreed to pay street tax. Sorry, this is a lot of, like, mob talk.

[Em]

A lot of. I was like, oh, my God. I feel like I'm just sitting in.

[Christine]

I know. I'm like, the gargoyles would have been useless by now. Like, we've lost the. Yeah. So he agreed to pay street tax to the Lucchese crime is how you say it?

[Em]

Lucchese.

[Christine]

Lucchese. To the Lucchese crime family under boss Anthony Gaspipe.

[Em]

Gasp.

[Christine]

I've.

[Em]

See, that's much better than good. That's moneymaker or Dracula.

[Christine]

Totally Dracula. Establishing a partnership that became the five families largest moneymaker after narcotics. So Marat. I hope I'm saying that right. Balagula. Balagula. His deal was viewed as a sign of weakness by his rival, Vladimir Reznikov, who opened Fire on his office with an AK47, wounding several secretaries, killing an associate. And then on June 12, 1986, Vladimir Reznikov entered the Odessa nightclub, pressed a 9 millimeter Beretta to Marat Balagula's head and demanded $600,000, saying, with me and you're dead. You and your whole family, I swear. You understand?

[Em]

Oh, my.

[Christine]

Marat suffered a heart attack attack as a result.

[Em]

Damn. Just from the stress?

[Christine]

Yes. And he contacted Casso and Caso, viewing Vladimir Reznikov's actions as a threat to the entire Cosa Nostra, Told Marat, send word to Vladimir. First of all, great line. Send word to Vladimir that you have his money, that he should come to the club tomorrow. We'll take care of the rest. So now they're laying in wait for this? Totally. Marat warned, you sure this is an animal. They were sure.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

The following day, Vladimir Reznikov arrived at the Rasputin nightclub to collect his money. Upon discovering Marat was absent, Vladimir launched into a barrage of profanity and walked back into the parking lot. This is where Joseph ambushed Vladimir, shooting him six times in the arm. Later, leg and hip. And as Vladimir attempted to draw his own weapon, Joseph, quote, finished him off with a seventh bullet to the head. Joseph then entered a getaway car driven by Anthony and left Brighton Beach. So, like the Gemini twins in the getaway car. There they go.

[Em]

Okay. Zoom.

[Christine]

Casso later noted, after that, Marat didn't have any problems with other Russians. Okay.

[Em]

You know, but thank God.

[Christine]

Thank God, seriously. In late 1982, Paul Castellano ordered Frank. Oh, God. Decico. I don't know. In late 1982, Paul Castellano ordered Frank Decico to arrange the murder of Roy Deo. Because Roy was now a threat to this whole enterprise, he's under heavy law enforcement investigation. And Paul Castellano is like, if he turns, everyone underneath is screwed. Screwed because of his fearsome reputation. Like, Roy De Mayo is, like this huge crime boss. Frank found it difficult to find anyone who would, like, take out a hit on this guy.

[Em]

I don't.

[Christine]

Or he's trying to take out a hit, but he can't find anyone who wants to do the hit.

[Em]

No one's volunteering.

[Christine]

Yeah, no one's volunteering. No, no, no, no. So Frank Recruit recruited Anthony and Joseph, members of Roy's crew, to kill their own own boss.

[Em]

Double agent.

[Christine]

I mean, that's.

[Em]

I mean, is that not the most Gemini thing you can do?

[Christine]

It is. It's starting to really track at this point.

[Em]

Don't they say Geminis are two faced?

[Christine]

It's like, yeah, they do.

[Em]

Well, now you're against your own kind. Crazy.

[Christine]

Oops. According to Sammy the Bull Gravano, Paul Castellano wanted the whole DEO crew killed because they had all become serial killers. Pillars.

[Em]

Wow.

[Christine]

Feels like fighting fire with fire, but

[Em]

it does feel like you kind of. It's like Frankenstein, Dr. Frankenstein against his own monster.

[Christine]

Right. It's like, well, who actually is creating this problem? I don't want him to perpetuate.

[Em]

A lot of people. Yeah, yeah.

[Christine]

Isn't that.

[Em]

Now you want to.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Em]

You want to kill the killers? Okay, sure.

[Christine]

Yeah, sure, whatever. So Frank Decico approached Anthony and Joseph, told them about the contract on them, but promised they would get a pass. Meaning? Meaning they would be spared if they killed Roy. So that's basically how they talked them into it. They're like, well, we'll put out a hint on YouTube. Nobody has a problem with that, but we'll spare you if you kill your boss.

[Em]

Right.

[Christine]

So Caso also claimed he ordered Anthony and Joseph to kill Roy, assuring them there were would be no retribution. And then they would just like join the big family and everybody would just be happy again. It's all good. Worry about it. Disney family and editing. On January 10, 1983, Roy visited Patrick's body shop, Patrick Testa Motors Inc. In Canarsie, Brooklyn to collect money. Anthony and Joseph were both there. And as Roy Demeo sat down and waited for a cup of coffee like he had countless times, they shot him dead. On January 20, 1983, Roy was found in the trunk of his Cadillac. His body was found, I should say, in the trunk of his Cadillac. Couple deville at the Varuna Boat Club parking lot. He had been shot multiple times in the head with a defensive bullet wound in his hand and a chandelier placed on top of his frozen body.

[Em]

Interesting.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

Symbolic.

[Christine]

Bizarre. I think they probably were like, let's just put something.

[Em]

Something so obvious that it's clear that we were here.

[Christine]

No, I think they were hiding him in the trunk. They put him in the trunk and they put a chandelier on it.

[Em]

I was like, so. I don't. I couldn't.

[Christine]

Phantom of the Opera.

[Em]

Yeah. Yeah. I was like, this makes. Okay, whatever. That makes a lot more sense. Sorry.

[Christine]

No, he was in his own. It doesn't really make more sense though.

[Em]

That's. No, it makes more sense what I was thinking. Like, it's like a calling card of like.

[Christine]

Oh, oh, no. Yeah, I think it was more Just like, oh, let's put him in the trunk and then put something else in it to like hide him sort of. Or maybe there was already a chandelier in the trunk and they just put it on it.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

You know what I mean? Because it's his car. So I. I don't really know the answer to that. So the Gambino family did keep their word and they spared Anthony and Joseph, but they did not want them associated with their family. So they were passed off to Caso and officially made in the Lucha Lucchese family crime family. In October 1984, the federal government issued a multi count indictment targeting the international stolen car export ring. And together the defendants were tried. It was Paul Castellano, Anthony Gagi, Henry Borelli, Peter Lafrosa, Ronald Rhian, Edward Randini, Ronald usa, Joseph Anthony. Whole gang was there. Paul Castellano was assassinated on the streets of New York during the trial.

[Em]

Yes.

[Christine]

This is getting bonkers.

[Em]

I won't say who, but I know someone who witnessed his death.

[Christine]

What? Yeah, the.

[Em]

They. Not like they were in on it, but like they. They hid behind a car and witnessed it.

[Christine]

What the. Mm. Literally I said that and you were like, oh, yeah.

[Em]

Well, because earlier when you said Paul Castellano, I went, I don't know if I'm gonna tell that story.

[Christine]

Holy shit. I have to text you later. Okay. Wowza. So moving right along. He was assassinated on the streets of New York with no witnesses during the trial.

[Em]

1. Well, during the tri.

[Christine]

No witnesses. I'm saying. No, no, no. I'm saying no witnesses. Not even the person you're talking about.

[Em]

That's exactly right.

[Christine]

Keep them out of the. Out of the headline.

[Em]

It's exactly right.

[Christine]

The jury acquitted both Anthony and Joseph of conspiracy to transport stolen vehicles and substantive transport charges. They also face charges under certain laws for conspiring to violate the civil rights of federal witnesses by basically killing them. It feels a little wild to say they violated their rights, but anyway, okay.

[Em]

Does feel odd.

[Christine]

So all this to say the jury was unable to reach a verdict on the civil rights conspiracy count for Anthony and Joseph. There was a mistrial because of it. And In May of 1988, the court rejected their double jeopardy claims and ruled they could be retried on the civil rights conspiracy count. They then merged that into a 78 count racketeering indictment charge. Rico, 24 individuals associated with the DeMeo crew. So this is one of those, like where you see those documentaries where it's like they're just putting. They're like explaining to you like all the pieces. That's kind of.

[Em]

It almost feels like a combo deal at a restaurant. It's like a.

[Christine]

Yes.

[Em]

Just how do we fit everybody into these charges?

[Christine]

And then like it's somehow all connects with that. Right. Red string. So the trial began on February 22, 1988 before Judge Vincent L. Broderick. It lasted 16 months and produced over 30, 000 pages of transcripts involving over 250 witnesses. So some of the co defendants included were pretty big names. The one I'm going to point out here is Douglas Riga. And Douglas Riga was actually known for supplying pornographic films to the crew. That was like his role in the crew. So even he was part of the of this like big Rico.

[Em]

Sure.

[Christine]

We're putting them all under one umbrella. He had actually paid them to murder his uncle over a real estate dispute. So you know.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

I mean, just one example.

[Em]

What a dispute it must have been.

[Christine]

What a dispute. During the trial in October 1988, Anthony and Joseph were arrested on drug possession charges after being caught using cocaine in the court courthouse bathroom.

[Em]

Like easy slip up during the trial.

[Christine]

No, come on. In June 1989, the jury convicted Anthony and Joseph of racketeering and 10 counts of murder.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

In September 1989, Judge Broderick sentenced both men to life imprisonment for the murders, plus a consecutive 20 years for racketeering and $35,000 in fines lines. The Assistant US Attorney at the time stated at sentencing, The Roy Demeo crew is the most violent crew ever prosecuted in federal court, as far as my knowledge. And asserted that Roy engaged in wholesale slaughter.

[Em]

Wow.

[Christine]

Yes. Wow. Yep. And before. Because their crimes occurred prior to the abolition of federal parole in 87, both remained eligible for parole role. And yeah, just really crazy. Anthony and Joseph have also been linked to like dozens of other murders of like other mobsters, you know, that they had been involved in. So really we don't know like the full extent of it. Anthony was paroled in 2023 and was released in June of 2024.

[Em]

Wow.

[Christine]

After serving 35 years. And Joseph was paroled in 2024. He resided in Henderson, Nevada where he died this year, January of 2026 at the age of 71.

[Em]

Wow.

[Christine]

But yeah, Anthony's still out there. So you know, wow. Pretty crazy stuff.

[Em]

I that's a, a tall order to cover any Italian mob case.

[Christine]

I really tried to dwindle it down, but. And I had such confidence that I would remember how to frame it in a way that was like, oh, you'll remember, you know what this Means. And, like.

[Em]

No, it's. It's a. It's also. I mean, it's a year. Years of friendship, ally, friend, or friendship, enemy. Friendship, enemy, friend. Like, and everybody got tied into each other.

[Christine]

That's families.

[Em]

And you're really only telling, like, one chapter of a very large story.

[Christine]

Oh, yes. I think that this could be a very big hbo, like. Well, it probably is, because it's called Sopranos, but you know what I mean? Like, this could be, like, an actual. It probably is a documentary, but I'm

[Em]

sure there's many documentaries about. Just tiny. Just like the. The big five, like, slivers. Five families. Yeah.

[Christine]

Right. Exactly.

[Em]

Oh, my God. God. Wow. No, that was. That was well done. That's. It's tough to cover any of them because every single one of them has. Like, Paulie Castellano has.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

Like, he just was a guest appearance in that story.

[Christine]

There were. I was like, I'll. I'll pick two or three of them. Like, just, like, notable, like, events or victims. And it was like, oh, my God. Like, it's just endless. Like, I don't. I just kind of had to pick and choose, like, examples, which I. Is kind of dark.

[Em]

Well, and also.

[Christine]

Anyway, I got to share more about

[Em]

my lore about someone knowing.

[Christine]

I know, but, like, you left us with such, like, a little tease. I'm, like, so intrigued.

[Em]

To be fair, it was. He.

[Christine]

The.

[Em]

The person that knew about. It was. He was a family member, but he. He died already, so it's not like. It's not like they're going to come looking for us.

[Christine]

Okay. Okay.

[Em]

And also, why would they. Apparently he kept his mouth shut the whole time. So no one.

[Christine]

No one ratted him, apparently, so. Took it to the grave, literally.

[Em]

But no. And. And he. It was my grandpa, but he was very drunk one night and. And let it out, and he was like, I've never told anybody this. And I went, oh. But he was just walking home and witnessed it. And he hid behind a car. And then he was like, I just watched Paulie Castellano die. Holy shit. And then was like, I'm not telling him. He said, I'm never telling a soul. I don't want to come back to me.

[Christine]

What was his zodiac sign?

[Em]

Because it certainly wasn't Gemini the day before Halloween. So Scorpio.

[Christine]

They are good at those secrets, those Scorpios.

[Em]

They live mysterious. Mysterious.

[Christine]

They are.

[Em]

Anyway, it was.

[Christine]

Wow.

[Em]

I remember hearing about that. And. And not. He also told me when, like, I was much younger, I wouldn't have cared at all about any Italian mob family history. So maybe that's why he said something to me because he knew it wouldn't get around. But whatever. It's gone around now. But it happened after.

[Christine]

Now you're on a microphone anyway.

[Em]

But he's done, so whatever. Okay, well, that was very good. That was. Had to be a lot of research. Good job.

[Christine]

Thank you. It was a lot of research, but then I pared it down and then it was almost like. I wish I kept a little more of that, but. No, it's fine. I. It was too much of an order to do more in depth than that. But yeah, next time I will come with something maybe a little bit less of a cast of characters, you know, we'll see.

[Em]

I don't know. As long if they've got fun nicknames like that, they're always welcome. All right, well, that was Christine the mouth. Shiefer.

[Christine]

Yeah. Wait, what are you? I don't know. M. The brains.

[Em]

Wow. That's a nice thing to say, but no. It's like an ironic nickname, isn't it? No, no, I. That was very good, Christine. Thank you for. And you finished out our birthday.

[Christine]

Oh my gosh.

[Em]

Because I was technically our birthday episode originally, so.

[Christine]

Happy birthday.

[Em]

Well, everyone, hope you are having a good pride month. Happy week. This. I think this one comes out. It's officially halfway through the year, so.

[Christine]

Oh my God.

[Em]

Yeah. So with that, toodaloo and let's get out of here. That's why we drink.

[Christine]

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[Em]

It's not just for celebrities.

[Christine]

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[Em]

to become a registered nurse.

[Christine]

Take the first step toward your nursing career. Save your spot now at Carrington. Edu Events. For information on program outcomes, visit carrington. Edu Sci Fi.