E487 A Non-Squatting Sasquatch and Skreeonk Facts (featuring Guest Host Steven Ray Morris)

Summary

And That's Why We Drink – Episode 487: A Non-Squatting Sasquatch and Skreeonk Facts (feat. Steven Ray Morris)

Podcast Date: June 21, 2026
Hosts: Em Schulz (Em), Christine Schiefer (remote)
Guest Host: Steven Ray Morris
Episode Focus: Local cryptid lore (the Buena Park Monster) and the "Bone Wars" of dinosaur paleontology

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Episode Overview

This special episode features Em partnering with guest host Steven Ray Morris (of "See Jurassic Right") for a delightful, geeky exploration of two wildly different—but equally fascinating—topics: a local Bigfoot-like cryptid haunting the sewers of Buena Park, California, and the epic, drama-filled rivalry known as the Bone Wars, which shaped modern dinosaur paleontology. Expect cat stories, fun sidebars about California theme parks, and an enthusiastic blend of paranormal and true crime with playful banter and nerdy energy.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Podcast Setting and Vibe

• Em and Steven's Setup: After several recording mishaps, Em ends up cozy at Steven's home, surrounded by his three cats (Biddy Bitty Bum Bum, Ripley, and Wendy—with only one tooth among them).
• Theme: The fusion of murder, paranormal, and cryptid intrigue, with a healthy dose of dino-geekery and SoCal nostalgia.

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2. Tale One: The Buena Park Monster (Local SoCal Cryptid)

[13:45 – 40:00]

Background and Witness Accounts

• 1982, Buena Park, CA: Locals report strange growls and shrieks emerging from storm drains, along with odd, animalistic tracks and a shadowy, hairy, larger-than-human figure.
• Sightings:
  • Described as 9 feet tall, with glowing red eyes—a Bigfoot-like being too huge to properly fit inside the drainage tunnels.
  • Lingered in the area for about an hour, witnessed by a group of five teenagers and later, the apartment complex manager and his wife.
  • Notable quote from witness Raymond:

    "It got bigger as the roar got louder... It was not human at all. It was scary. It was real. Nobody would make me change my mind about this. I really think it [was] the real deal. I really believe it to this day." — Raymond (16:59)

Community Response and Monster Hunt

• Local Panic: Newspapers stoked hysteria, linking the creature to Disneyland's Matterhorn Abominable Snowman and inspiring a mass monster hunt (with 100+ people) within days.

  "Some people living near Disneyland think the abominable snowman has wandered off of the amusement park's famous Matterhorn ride and has taken up residence in the sewer drain." (23:11)

• Paranormal Investigators: Used dowsing rods to ~comically~ attempt creature-tracking; plaster casts of tracks were made (and destroyed by kids).
• Kids’ Mishaps: The group, and later, children at the monster hunt, continually ruined potential evidence by trampling prints.

Skepticism and Sad Reality

• Police and Debunking:
  Police organized a press conference claiming the monster was a 6’4” unhoused man covered in grease, living in the tunnels.

  "Now the story gets sad because now we're like, oh, man, people were literally hunting down, like a guy who's already down on his luck, living in the tunnels..." — Em (31:44)

• Locals Unconvinced:
  Dismissed the police’s explanation with stereotypes and insisted, “A hobo doesn’t walk in the water. He walks along railroad tracks.” (32:37)
• Media Reach:
  Massive police call-ins (200–500 per week), CBS’s Dan Rather covered it, and later another large print was found—its cast remains at Clark Regional Park.
• Fun Local Science Tie-In:
  Ralph B. Clark Regional Park now houses the fossil cast and a remarkable paleontological collection, including marine and prehistoric mammal bones, but very few dinosaur fossils.

Memorable Moments and Quotes

• Godzilla Screonk:

  "The official Godzilla sound is 'Skreeonk' (S K R E O O N K), I think, or something like that." — Steven (19:31)

• Monster Hunt Rapid-Response:

  "Within three days, they were getting 200 to 500 calls... Within 24 hours had organized a monster hunt." (22:37, 23:51)

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3. Deep Dive: The Bone Wars (Paleontological Rivalry)

[42:24 – 89:54]

Setting the Stage

• Steven’s Research-Nerd Approach:
  Comes fully prepared with notes, channeling his love for dinosaurs and a penchant for juicy science history.
• Why the Bone Wars:
  “It’s not really about dinosaurs — it’s about toxic masculinity. Welcome to the bone wars.” — Steven (43:41)

Famed Rivals: Marsh vs. Cope

• Othniel Charles Marsh:
  Yale-educated, methodical, introverted, supporter of Darwin, socially inept (“...acted like we had never met every time…” 51:14).
• Edward Drinker Cope:
  Philadelphia Quaker, charismatic, showman, less academically rigorous, skeptical of Darwin, family money-funded, more "vibes scientist."

Key Incidents in the Rivalry

• Early Friendship, Naming Favors:
  Initially cordial, even naming new species after each other—“…naming dinosaurs after each other is literally the most bromantic thing you can tell, right?" — Em (56:04)
• Betrayal at the Dig Site:
  Marsh bribes Cope’s workers to send bones to him instead—first act of rivalry (60:33).
• The Elasmosaurus Humiliation:
  Marsh points out Cope assembled a skeleton backwards; Cope is publicly ridiculed, and Marsh never lets him live it down.
• Destructive Competition:
  Both sabotage digs, destroy fossils to thwart each other, and indulge in petty “naming wars.”

  "They would sabotage each other's digs and destroy actual fossils... All these little petty human male ego things that contributed to... was this a net positive?" — Steven (75:18, 91:16)

• Societal and Scientific Fallout:
  Rushed, inaccurate publications, apocryphal claims about dynamite use, and government/law meddling.
  Marsh, as US Geological Survey head, passes laws to try and seize Cope’s fossils, but this ultimately backfires and his own finds are repossessed.

Public Smackdowns and Tragic End

• Media Exposés:
  Cope orchestrates a damning New York Herald expose that forces Marsh’s resignation and halves the Survey's funding.
• Cope's Final Salvo:
  As he’s dying and alone, Cope donates his brain for posthumous comparison, publicly challenging Marsh to a brain-measuring contest (87:38).

  "That is the pettiest shit I’ve ever heard. My donating your brain and then challenging someone else to also donate their brain is so cunty. I don't, I don't know. It's messy. It's messy." — Em (88:11)

Who Won?

• Stat Sheet:
  Marsh discovered 80 dinosaurs (including Stegosaurus, Triceratops, Allosaurus, Apatosaurus), Cope found 56 (mainly marine reptiles and pre-mammal creatures).
• Lasting Impact:
  The rivalry’s fallout left scientific messes still being cleaned up today, highlighting the dangers of egotistical competition in science.

  "Having interviewed paleontologists working today, they're basically like, paleontologists now are still undoing the damage that these guys did..." — Steven (77:00)

Memorable Quotes

• "Over the 20ish year period of the bone wars, not only would many of these discoveries turn out to be false, they would try and claim each other's discoveries... and sabotage each other's digs..." (74:37)
• "Karma is a cat purring in my lap because it loves me anyway." — Steven, quoting Taylor Swift (83:16)
• "They were friends... Like, I think that's what makes it kind of tragic too." — Steven (91:03)

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4. Notable Fun Facts, Tangents & Personal Moments

• Thematic Parallels:
  Repeated references to Wicked (“It’s a little like Wicked at first, school friends, then foes!”), Steve Jobs/Steve Wozniak, Salieri/Mozart, and “toxic masculinity.”
• California Nostalgia:
  Stories of Disneyland and Knott’s Berry Farm; debate about what rides remain and theme park after-hours drama (pizza at Disney, Halloween events).
• Paleontology Museums:
  Recommendations for the Natural History Museum of LA, Clark Park, and other lesser-known SoCal science museums—plus the fun fact that only 1% of Clark Park's collection is displayed.
• Dino Names for Kids:
  Real-world example where paleontologists named dinosaurs after their children.
• Science vs. Showmanship:
  The importance of collaboration and humility in scientific discovery (“If they’d just teamed up, imagine how many more dinosaurs they might have found!”).

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5. Notable Quotes & Moments by Timestamp

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote or Highlight | |-----------|---------|-------------------| | 02:33 | Christine/Em | Fun cat chat; Steven introduces his three rescue cats ("Eternal blep.") | | 08:21 | Em | “I did ask Steven if he wanted to ghost, an alien, or a cryptid. He said cryptid.” | | 16:59 | Witness Raymond | “It got bigger as the roar got louder…It was not human at all...” | | 19:31 | Steven | "The official Godzilla sound is Screonk... S K R E O O N K." | | 23:11 | Em | “Some people living near Disneyland think the abominable snowman has wandered off of the amusement park's famous Matterhorn ride and has taken up residence in the sewer drain.” | | 31:44 | Em | "Now the story gets sad because now we're like, oh, man, people were literally hunting down, like a guy who's already down on his luck, living in the tunnels..." | | 43:41 | Steven | "This story isn't really about dinosaurs. It's about toxic masculinity. Welcome to the bone wars." | | 56:04 | Em | "Naming dinosaurs after each other is literally the most bromantic thing you can tell, right?" | | 60:33 | Steven | "Marsh...would return to the pits and pay Cope’s men to send whatever they found to him instead of to Cope." | | 62:55 | Steven | “So that story is basically exaggerated…but Marsh heard this and was like, I'm gonna just constantly - remember when you put the head on the ass?” | | 75:18 | Steven | "Often they would sabotage each other's digs and destroy actual fossils..." | | 87:57 | Steven | "Cope donated his brain to science and challenged Marsh to a brain measuring contest to see who is indeed the smarter and more brilliant of the two." | | 88:11 | Em | "That is the pettiest shit I’ve ever heard. My donating your brain and then challenging someone else to also donate their brain is so cunty." |

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Episode Flow and Utility

• The conversation is fun, nerdy, and fully accessible; you’ll feel right at home even if you’re not a local or a dino superfan.
• Both stories—one a community cryptid craze, the other a true-science rivalry—follow gripping, dramatic arcs, filled with local color and personal anecdotes.
• Tangents (SoCal parks, museum recs, dino facts, even a stray Wicked song lyric or two) keep things lively.

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In Case You Missed It / TL;DR (But You Shouldn't!)

• Buena Park Monster (1982): A Bigfoot-like cryptid supposedly haunts SoCal sewers, sparking panic, a monster hunt, and lingering local legend—likely just a tragic case of mistaken identity.
• Bone Wars: 19th-century dino rivals Marsh and Cope go from friends to sabotage-heavy enemies; their bitterness produces scientific cache—but even more scientific headaches.
• Key Takeaway: Rivalry might boost motivation, but unchecked ego in science creates messes that take literal centuries to remedy.
• Most Petty Move: Donating your brain just to one-up a rival.

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Recommendations & Follow-Ups

• Listen to Steven’s Podcast: See Jurassic Right – for more nerdy dinosaur, science, and pop culture deep-dives.
• Local Science Exploration: If you’re in SoCal, check out Clark Park and the Natural History Museum’s fossil collections.
• Takeaways: Sometimes you’re watching Bigfoot in a sewer, sometimes you’re living in the middle of the Bone Wars — either way, get your facts straight, respect the evidence, and collaborate over competing.

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Episode closes with Em and Steven attempting to sign off using American Sign Language, a callback to their friendship and recent ASL lessons.

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Sources Mentioned

• The Dollop, Stuff You Should Know (Bone Wars episodes)
• “The Rise and Fall of Dinosaurs” by Steve Brusatti
• SFGate, Robo Japan, OC Register, OC Parks
• Riley Black (NatGeo), Drunk History, New York Herald archives

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Dinosaurs, cryptids, and wicked rivalries: That’s why they drink.

Transcript

[Host/Announcer]

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[Em]

When we moved into this house, I had one non negotiable with Allison where I was like we cannot have rugs on the floor because I'm so tired of them getting dirty and like not being able to wash them. The whole time we've lived here, it's just hardwood everywhere. Now I have discovered tumble rugs and oh my God, like it's so nice to have my house actually look like things are getting put together like they're being completed.

[Christine]

My mom used to power wash, like take a power washer and power wash my rugs because it was, I was like, I don't know how else to do this and you or pace, you know, pay somebody to do it. And with the. I have one, I've had one for a long time actually in, in my entryway and to toss it in the wash. And then it's like, oh, you got. My mom was like, you got a new rug? And I was like, no, it was just a very muddy week.

[Em]

They're spill proof. They are machine washable. And it's, it's especially nice because I knew once we got a dog, I knew we would get a dog that shedded.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

And I was like, I just don't even want to have to think about, like on top of sweeping, vacuuming. It just was not something I wanted to do. There's so many nice styles over there.

[Christine]

Oh, they're so beautiful.

[Em]

It's very, very wonderful. So, yeah, machine washable rugs made better. For a limited time only, our listeners get 10 off plus free shipping@tumble living.com drink.

[Christine]

That's t living.com drink. After you purchase, they will ask where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them our show sent you.

[Em]

Hello, everybody. You might be wondering what's going on. I am in Steven Ray Morris's house. Unfortunately, Christine could not be here this week and so Stephen decided that he would be. Sean. By decided, I mean I kind of forced him. I said, please come right now. And I was going to record in our usual way over the Internet, even though we're neighbors. And then that Internet wasn't working. So I went to a hotel so I could use their Internet. That Internet wasn't working. Here is evidence of that somewhere. Hopefully we can put a little poll, a little screen tab of us once recording this. But then since that Internet was so bad, we're trying for a third time. He said, just come over. So now we're here and I'm all snuggled up in his living room. Thank you so much for hosting us as I host you. Welcome to you and Ray Morris.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Hello.

[Em]

Thank you for doing this with me. I'm very excited.

[Christine]

Cozy.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

You've got a blanket?

[Em]

Yes.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

My three cats are somewhere.

[Em]

They're somewhere. Steven even said, oh, do you want me to put the cats away? And I went, please keep them out because I know we got a lot of cat lovers who listen. So I did make you do this the last time, but would you please tell people about your kitties because they're brand new to the family.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

No, I'm very lucky. I lost my cat Penny Lane of 18 years in Novemb. And it's just one of those. Of course they're gonna start running around.

[Em]

That's fine.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

If you hear any rumbles come upon the scene. No, I, you know, you never know when you're ready for another Pet. But my friend Christine had rescued these two black cats, and I was like, I love black cats. You know, they're harder to adopt, all that stuff. So I was like, I'll meet them.

[Em]

Right.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

And then their mom was there as well, and I just said, you know what? Let's take them all.

[Em]

So from zero to one to three cats, as you've said.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah. No, and it's the thing. Yeah. So I have three cats. Biddy Bitty Bum Bum is the mom named after the Selena song.

[Em]

Love it.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

And then I have Ripley, who's the boy. He's the large black cat. He's the special boy. And then I have Wendy, who's the goblin princess, who I think is the one with the swishy tail over there right now playing.

[Em]

She looks like she's in hunt mode, which I love.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yes.

[Em]

And my favorite fact about all of his cats is that out of all three of them combined, they have one tooth.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yes.

[Em]

Wendy has one tooth, which is why her tongue sticks out all the time. It's very precious.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Eternal blood.

[Em]

Eternal blep. Yeah. I love that.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah.

[Em]

And I'm just so grateful for you, Steven.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

It was.

[Em]

It's been such an embarrassing day between, like, hey, the Internet's not working. Hey, the Internet's not working again. So I really. I thank you so much for housing me.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

We did our Sea Jurassic Right episode together here in this living room. It was one of the last recordings I did before I adopted these cats. And Wendy and Bidi Biddy Bum Bum are in full Lorelei and Rory mode here. Gilmore. I call them the Gilmore Girls when they're fighting.

[Em]

The mom and daughter fighting. No. Yes. I was here last time. Probably one of your last silent episodes, I guess, before they were running around. But this is a wonderful time to shout out your podcast. See Jurassic. Right?

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yes.

[Em]

Tell the world what you'd like them to know about that.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

They love to show off. It's great. No, See Jurassic. Right. It started off as a Jurassic park podcast, but then I was thinking, because after our ASL class the other day, I like the idea of See Jurassic rite is essentially like any guest that comes on, it's like, what is their Jurassic Park?

[Em]

Yeah, I love that.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

So I've interviewed scientists. I've interviewed therapists, musicians, other podcasters, people in the Jurassic park movies and me.

[Em]

You started with scientists, and we got to us talking. Oh, there's one of them. We talked about Back to the Future

[Stephen Ray Morris]

and theme parks and stuff.

[Em]

Yeah, I did. Really, like. We. We kind of came together on the the not together. But I was with you when you came up with the concept. Like, what's your Jurassic Park?

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

Yeah, I love that. It was. It was very nice because remember when Steven asked me to be on his episode, please go listen to it. I was like, oh, man, it's a dinosaur podcast, so what am I gonna talk about? And it turned into kind of just like a fandom geek fest. It was wonderful.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

No, that's totally. Yeah. The podcast is basically kind of split between those two lines of like, science stuff and dinosaur stuff. And then also like movies, pop culture, geeky stuff.

[Em]

Yes.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

And then there's like a little lane there where there's like, Stephen lore related things that I can fit in there.

[Em]

But yeah, love it. So Stephen is returning the favor and he's. He's coming onto our show. I. Very excited a lot. I'm. You've said the same on your end, but a lot of people who follow my social media are very excited that we have become friends where we also did ASL together. So today's Yappy hour. We're gonna teach you a little asl and. But no, people are very stoked that, you know, we've got a little thing going on. So I'm. I'm glad that you're here. I. Poor Steven already knows the topic because we got that far in the last recording.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

No spoilers. No spoilers.

[Em]

I did ask Steven if he wanted to ghost an alien or a cryptid. He said cryptid.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

I did.

[Em]

And I did pick a local cryptid for him because he was born and raised or just raised in Anaheim.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

I was born and raised in Anaheim. So, you know, Orange County. I was born and raised at Disneyland. Mickey's my dad.

[Em]

Yeah. We talked in the last. You'll never know now, but we did talk about how, Stephen, your first job was at Disney.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

My first ever job when I was 17 was at Disneyland.

[Em]

And, yeah, very few people can relate

[Stephen Ray Morris]

to that pizza port. I mean, I basically worked at Costco. The Costco pizza. Like, that's what Disney. That's what pizza port essentially is. Yes, it's very good, but it is just like pizza, you know, it's not as, like, themed as other parts of Disneyland, but I did like being in Tomorrowland and I loved being below Space Mountain. That was really fun.

[Em]

I can't imagine having, like, a work break. Like, like some people are just, like, having a cigarette in Tomorrowland instead of a back alley.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yes. Pluto was having a cigarette with her head off her. Yeah.

[Em]

Oh, that's. I don't Know why that's shocking to me? That's just as shocking as the cigarette. Oh, wow. Okay. Well, Pluto's having a good time. I mean, no, it's not the same Pluto anymore, but one can dream.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah.

[Em]

So the Cryptid I picked for you was a local to Anaheim and it was the Buena Park Monster. Although one of the newspapers I read did say Buena foot instead of Bigfoot. So we got about one bullet in. So that actually, Stephen is really going to be learning about this in real time. And you were not familiar with this concept?

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah, I mean, Buena park is near Knott's Berry Farm where I had my winter formal in high school, which doesn't. I feel like you having a winter formal at a theme park doesn't make sense because you're riding roller coasters in a, you know, in a tux, in a dress, like.

[Em]

Oh, I didn't think about that.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah, it was kind of a weird thing. Like, I remember because, you know, ill fitting suit at 17 or. Yeah, I think 16 or 17. Like my Nokia flip phone, like, flew out of my pocket on the roller coaster. Like, it was a bit of a disaster.

[Em]

I, it didn't occur to me that people were actually in glam.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

No, no, it was, was winter formal. Like, I feel like it should have either been like Sadie Hawkins or like homecoming.

[Em]

That's kind of familiar with. I was very lucky to go to a premiere at Disney.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Oh, cool.

[Em]

It was for the Haunted Mansion.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Oh, nice.

[Em]

So one of the cool things about that was you had to actually ride the Haunted Mansion ride. And when you got to the other side, that was where the movie began. You had to go. You had to ride the ride to get to the movie.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Whoa, that's cool.

[Em]

I thought it was so smart because then you, like, definitely knew all the references when you watch the movie because you just saw the ride.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

You were absorbing it.

[Em]

You were absorbing it. And. But I, we also had to dress up for that. It was a movie premiere and I was like, are people gonna go ride rides afterwards in. This is like in heels. I thought that was so odd. But anyway, I did not. I did like one ride and I was like, let's get out of here. Okay, so Buena Park Monster. I, I, the only fun fact I told you is that at Knott's Berry Farm nearby where this monster was seen, they, a few years later had a ride come out called Bigfoot Rapids. And a lot of people thought that that was inspired by the sightings a few years before. But unfortunately, I'm here to tell you that's not true. They just picked Bigfoot, I guess.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

It's a great ride. You get wet, you know, it's one of those, like.

[Em]

Is it a log flume or is it like when you sit in the circle and you go under the circle.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah.

[Em]

And you go under the waterfalls.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah.

[Em]

Haven't read in it. Is it still there?

[Stephen Ray Morris]

I don't know. That's a good question. I feel like I'm. My allegiances have mostly been split between Disneyland and Universal Studio.

[Em]

I understand.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

And I just really. I don't think I've been back to Knott's Berry Farm since high school.

[Em]

Get out. Not even for Halloween. They have a big Halloween thing out there.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Maybe one year. Did the Halloween thing, but fun. I just don't. I guess I'm not into Boysenberry.

[Em]

I went to the Boysenberry Festival this year on principle.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

So it's worth it. So I should go.

[Em]

If you're hungry, it's a 10 out of 10. Yeah. Okay. So we start in 1982. This is where the Internet cut out last time. Ding dong. Who's that? Oh, it's your new. It's your ringtone on your Mint Mobile phone.

[Christine]

Oh, my God. That would give me a panic attack. And my dog would bark every single time. How annoying.

[Em]

Ding Dong. Well, hey, Ding dong. One more time. Did you know that Mint Mobile, they took what's wrong with wireless and made it right with Premium Wireless for $15 a month. And you can even bring your current phone, your number over. Ding Dong.

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It feels like a catch. Like, oh, 15amonth. Okay. And that. But for, for what? Like just to get in the door and it's like, no, no, that' cost. And not to name names. I literally won't name names because I'm legally not allowed to. But there are other providers that have not really been so transparent. Bring your current phone and your number. Choose from 3, 6 or 12 month plans with Mint Mobile and say goodbye to a monthly bill. Ditch overpriced wireless with Mint Mobile. It is super easy.

[Em]

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[Christine]

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[Em]

so in 1982, Buena park locals report some weird activity going on in their town's drain systems. They're just hearing odd sounds. They're hearing growling. They are hearing weird screams, and they're seeing odd animal tracks. And they're like, well, that doesn't make any sense, what's going on in there? Which I could understand animals being, like, in a tunnel for a storm or something, but it is California. It doesn't rain all that much.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

No, but it is interesting because the part of Anaheim I grew up in was like a big suburban. You know, big suburban sprawl. Sprawl. And so half of the city was built an I'm Hills specifically, was built in the 70s, and the other half was built when I was growing up. So the thing that everyone really noticed was that all the animals, you know, in those areas where they were doing construction were all being pushed out. So we saw a lot of wildlife growing up. Like, I saw a ton of coyotes as a kid.

[Em]

Bobcat.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

So I wonder. I mean, this is. This is in between those times. But again, it's like construction always pushes out wildlife.

[Em]

Had no idea.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah.

[Em]

Okay, well, maybe that's. Maybe that's telling of something here. They were seeing a bunch of animal tracks, but they were also seeing a dark, shadowy figure hanging around in the sewers. And pretty much, people were reporting that they were seeing almost a human figure, but it. There was something off about it. It was just a little too hairy and just a little too big. People reporting that when they would get a better look at it, eventually they realized that this creature was about 9ft tall with a sewer. That's a lot of crawling. There's no. There's not even a chance at squatting or anything in there. 9ft tall with glowing red eyes. And so people claimed that they would see her near a riverbank at the local school, but there were no official records, just rumors of it existing. And then on May 10, 1982, two teenagers and their three friends were all hanging out. So five teenagers in total. They were all hanging out at the apartment complex. And I guess they're hanging out outside and because they were within shot of the sewer system. And that's when they, for the first time, really got a good look at this thing because the creature was climbing out of the tunnel instead of climbing in. So while they were outside, they hear a deep snarl and then get this whiff of something disgusting. They pretty. It was, like, mean how they were describing how bad this smells.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah, you would smell, too, if you were in A sewer, literally.

[Em]

Like, I can't imagine a worse place to, like, try to smell good, but. So they heard this horrible growl, got a whiff of something putrid. I'm saying putrid. They were more intense about it. And when they turned around, that's when they saw this big ass creature crawl out. They thought that it could have been a bear. One of them actually thought it was Bigfoot. They were like, oh, my God, I see him.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Here he is.

[Em]

And one of the brothers, his name was Raymond, is. He's still alive. I think this is a quote from Raymond about what happened. It got bigger as the roar got louder, which feels kind of like old school hulk, where the angrier he'd get, the bigger he would get. So I don't know if they watched him, like, metamorphosis. Grow.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah.

[Em]

Grow into a bigger being. But he apparently got bigger as he got louder. It was not human at all. It was scary. It was real. Nobody would make me change my mind about this. I really think it the real deal. I really believe it to this day.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Almost a little over 40 years ago, you said May 10, so, yeah.

[Em]

Oh, wow. Like, really? Coming up on it.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Coming up.

[Em]

24 years.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

44 years, yeah.

[Em]

They say that the figure hung around for an hour, which is crazy to me because if I were a teenager and I thought I saw bigfoot, I would at least have gotten a camera or I would have thrown something near it.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Is bigfoot still out there?

[Em]

I think if I were at 16, certainly I wouldn't be thinking clearly. I'd be like, oh, my God, it's right here. I don't know. I would react differently than just staring at it. I would at least wave someone over and be like, you gotta see this.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

I mean, there was a. Again, going back to the wildlife in that part of Orange County. I remember very clearly one morning I went out to go get the newspaper, when you still read the comics in the newspaper. And I stopped halfway down the driveway because there was a coyote just sitting in front of the newspaper. And I was like, oh, my God.

[Em]

Like. Like waiting for you.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah, like waiting. Waiting to devour me, like.

[Em]

And they're big, by the way. I thought coyotes. I mean, they're not wolf size, but they're much bigger than us.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

No, no, I was. This is probably when I was like, I don't know, 12 or something. Yeah. It was kind of just like, you know.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

It just stood there, looked at me. It's like, yo, what's up?

[Em]

Did you just slowly back away?

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah, I just Went back inside.

[Em]

Okay. I was like. Did just a face off.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah. Yeah. I punched it. No, I would never.

[Em]

And as it. As it grew it, or as it

[Stephen Ray Morris]

rolled or got bigger, and I wrote it in a battle.

[Em]

Yeah. You know, you should have ended it that way, actually, Stephen. So not only were they watching it for an hour, apparently just sitting on them on their thumbs doing nothing, just watching it. They saw it splashing around in the water. They were hearing it kind of make weird sounds. I was like, there's so many opportunities to, like, do something. I don't know. I don't know what I would do. I don't. I just. In my mind, if the story could have been juicier. I'm mad that it wasn't like you riding a coyote into battle.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah.

[Em]

Apparently, it did growl one final time before it ran off. And they said it sounded like if Godzilla and a gorilla had a baby.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Oh, so King Kong and Godzilla shacked up.

[Em]

Literally. Isn't there a movie of Godzilla and King Kong beating each other up?

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah, yeah, there's. There's a few.

[Em]

So, though that sound exactly is what it sounded like.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

I mean, that Godzilla sound, it's. I know this because a friend wrote a Godzilla comic. Jordan Morris, the God. The official Godzilla sound is Screon. Yeah. S K R E O O, N K, I think, or something like that.

[Em]

And the official spelling. Thank you. You know what? Okay.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Come here. With Godzilla effects.

[Em]

Like, I didn't see that coming, but I'm so glad you did. I. At the dog park, I'm. Hank's birthday is coming up, and I've already told people I'm gonna do something. And I was thinking about thrusting it upon everybody at the dog park that day to do a spelling bee. I think skrionk is going to be the final word. And. And I'll be like.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Use it in a sentence.

[Em]

I'll be like, godzilla sound. His sound is a scrank. I mean, it's kind of like that's my new Scrabble word that gets me in trouble. It's like. No, it's a real word. Don't worry about it.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah, Scryonk.

[Em]

Thank you. That's probably the most fun fact you guys will hear on this episode. Okay. So it splashed around. It made a scryonk, and then it made a screen on. It's.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah.

[Em]

Okay. And then it ran off further down the creek so nobody could see it anymore. But the kids were like, we have to tell someone. Finally, an hour later, they're saying this. And so they Call the apartment managers, the car, the apartment complex's manager. And he's like, I don't believe this. These are just some kids trying to mess with me. And I guess when the kids finally wave him over, he does see the shadow of it last minute. And he can still smell it. This thing is down the river. And he's like, I. What was that smell? So this thing really is pretty stinky. And also his wife claimed to also see it. They basically saw shadows in the tunnel. And that was kind of as far as they got. But they did also hear a scrink, Although they didn't describe it as a Godzilla gorilla sound. They described it as like the dinosaurs in the movies. And it smelled like hell. Worse than a sewer.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Interesting, because it's 1982. So then it would have been something like Land of the Lost. Or like. Yeah, we could have Kong. Or like, it's pre Jurassic park.

[Em]

So we could have judged it up. Yeah. Because they're saying, like, the dinosaurs in the movies. You have to wonder what movies are they talking about.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Em]

So Frank, who is the manager, his wife Lorraine, also witnessed this. But Frank agreed that it sounded horrifying. And by the time he got there, the monster was pretty much already done the water. So he only witnessed the shadows, but did see some large tracks in the ground with that. That was enough for him to want to call the cops and be like, we just saw something different than all the other animals. Can you please come? And it took the cops an hour to show because they thought that this was a prank call.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Sure.

[Em]

By the time they got there, they, like, couldn't find anything, or they said they didn't find anything. It sounds like they didn't really try to find anything. And they basically said, oh, it must have been someone's pet. Which is crazy. It's insane. So they didn't do anything. But by the time that they got there, I guess like a. Some reporter heard about them in the woods looking for an odd animal, and the story just kind of spread like crazy. Within three days, they were getting 200 to 500 calls. Within that week.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Whoa.

[Em]

To the police station. That people were seeing a monster in their town. Horrifying.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah. And Bueno park is just a very. It's just a. You know, I mean. I mean, having a theme park in your. Your city is pretty cool, I guess, but, like, you know, it's not. There's not a lot going on, I think, in Buena park or there wasn't when I was growing up.

[Em]

So I don't know much. All I know is knots, and I. I know very little because I'm not a local. But I'm gonna take your word for that. And it's funny that you mention theme parks right before this bullet point, because one of the things I wanted to share with you was in that newspaper report that came out. This is how they started the newspaper article. Some people living near Disneyland think the abominable snowman has wandered off of the amusement park's famous Matterhorn ride and has taken up residence in the sewer drain. And when this newspaper article came out, mass hysteria in town. This is what led to the 200, 500 to 500 phone calls, and people within 24 hours had organized a monster hunt, which, again, that's who I wanted. When they were just staring at this thing for an hour, they were like, we're gonna go find this, and we don't know what we're gonna do once we find. We got to get there.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Wow, they really organized quickly.

[Em]

Like, this whole story is, like a week long.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Wow.

[Em]

And they. 100 people came to this hunt. I don't know how they got it together so quickly, but those damn screens distracting us. So cops were getting a bunch of calls of panicked locals. People were, like, locking their kids inside, thinking that the monster was going to come get them. And actually, paranormal investigators also came out to get tracks of this thing to follow it down the river. And they actually used dowsing rods, which is interesting because they're these rods that a lot of times are affected by water.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah.

[Em]

So if you're trying to communicate with something, maybe they were using them to just follow where the water went. But aren't you standing next to a creek? You can see that where the water goes.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

I mean, it. But like, yeah, Orange county, like, the river is there. I feel like that's a very generous term. Like, there's a river that goes that empties out in between Newport beach and Huntington Beach. That maybe is this river that they're referring to. But, you know, it's like the LA River. It's like a aqueduct, you know?

[Em]

Okay, that makes me feel better. So then maybe they're using the dowsing rods not in a paranormal way, but in a. Let's just keep following the waterway.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

You're like, oh, this thing's. This thing's just a concrete ditch for 90 of the year, you know, which

[Em]

would make you think that it's a lot easier to find this thing if there's like. It's not like he's hiding underwater or Anything.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

True. But yeah, there are, there a lot of. There are big like culverts and things and stuff along that. So like I remember when I did marathon, when I ran the LA marathon. We would run along that river to train for it and stuff.

[Em]

Okay, so good to know you ran the LA Marathon Twice.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah, when I was.

[Em]

So twice was crazy.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

17 and 18. Yeah.

[Em]

Ah, good for you, Steven.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

I wanted to do it like later in life, but now at this point it's like a health risk for, for people to do it over a certain age.

[Em]

Really?

[Stephen Ray Morris]

I didn't know, like your chances of heart attack is a lot higher after a certain age. Like I think 35 or something.

[Em]

Okay, so you're saying I have like a year and a half left until like, like medically don't ever have to agree to run a marathon.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah, well, you could do like a half marathon.

[Em]

No, no, no.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

You want to do 26.2.

[Em]

I mean, I just want to not be able to do it and say a doctor said that it's. It's for the best.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Liability.

[Em]

I just have to hold on for like 18 more months and hope nobody asks.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah,

[Christine]

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[Em]

HoneyLove recently launched their new crossover contour bra which features their best selling wireless crossover bra design plus built in molded light foam pads for extra support and a beautifully contoured shape. Christine, haven't cannot confirm for you, but I bet that's how you felt.

[Christine]

Can confirm.

[Em]

Perfect. And Honey Love's Cloud embrace bra is a modern wireless T shirt bra. Oh God, that sounds lovely.

[Christine]

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[Em]

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[Christine]

Oh yeah, I don't like the shape where that rolls down and all that. That stuff I should say. And it does not do. I am a fan of Honey Love shapewear. I would try it if I were you. And you haven't found something that works for you. Treat yourself to the most advanced bras and shapewear on the market. Use our exclusive link to save 20 off Honey [e-mail].

[Em]

drink that's HoneyLove.com Drink, and after you check out, they'll ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them we sent you. Experience the new standard in comfort and support with Honey love. Oh, we got a little kitty. I did see someone, like, almost try to get me earlier, and I was keeping my eye on it.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

This is bitty bitty bum bum.

[Em]

Little baby, little baby.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

She's Jennifer Lawrence in cut off jeans. That's how I think of her.

[Em]

I know you've said it to me before, but I get it. I know what you're.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

I'm not like the other moms. I'm like a cool mom, you know, like, that's her attitude.

[Em]

I mean, she really does start swinging on them if they act up. Like, it's. It's very entertaining here. So let's see. Oh, so they had paranormal investigators come out. I don't know if they had them come out or the investigators just kind of arrived when they heard this monster hunt was happening. While they were out, though, they ended up finding one, like, print in the mud that they thought was okay, but half of it seemed kind of destroyed and messed with.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah.

[Em]

So they got a cast of the first half of the track, and they were like, let's look for something else. They ended up crawling into a tunnel and finding, like, a really good print where they said that they even tried leaning, like, tried replicating it, but they weren't heavy enough to make that kind of indent.

[Host/Announcer]

Whoa.

[Em]

And so they were like, we got it. We gotta make a plaster cast of this right now. And one of the kids was like, you saw a track where, like, one of the kids on the monster hunt with them and ran up and destroyed it and then only destroyed a part of it. And they're like, let's at least get the other half. And then another kid stepped on it and fully destroyed it.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

So don't let your crime scenes, like, it's that simple.

[Em]

I'm all right there with you.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

I just had another recovered memory. I think it was for my birthday when I was really young. But there was. There was, like, a little creek and, like, a big tunnel. Because the part of Anaheim I grew up in, there was, like, a lot of hills and stuff. So there was, like, this big tunnel that. This tunnel, that sewer tunnel that empties out into a creek. And I. For some reason, I think my mom or my dad put, like, my ninja turtle toys out there. It was like they'd come out from the sewer that would have blown my

[Em]

Mind that would have been.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

It's like really like, it's like I can picture it. And so that's honestly what I've been picturing this whole story because I'm not too far from Buena park, but Wayne Park's a little bit more flat and stuff. And I love that.

[Em]

I, I, if I had Ninja Turtle toys, I would have absolutely played with them by the sewer or left them by the sewer or at least had a photo shoot of them by the sewer.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Of course, you got to, especially if

[Em]

there was a rat nearby.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Be like, don't move, Master Splinter.

[Em]

So anyway, they had this whole monster hunt. Pretty much nothing ended up turning up from it. And even the original people who witnessed this, the, the teenagers and the manager, the apartment manager, they were like, oh, well, of course it didn't show up because it was a hundred people there and it scared it away. So that was their reasoning.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

You know what I mean? It's not bad reasoning.

[Em]

They could be right. They could be right, but they could also be wrong and just in denial. So. So to assuage everyone's fears, because, I mean, the monster hunt happened. They're getting hundreds of calls, this police station, and we haven't found anything. And people are literally locking their families inside and creating their own curfew because they're scared of this thing. The police are like, we have to do something at least to stop the phone calls from coming in.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Sure.

[Em]

And so they have this press conference where they say, hey, everyone, we found the monster. Now, people know my opinion on the police as a whole, but. And I, I'm going to just say it sounds like they were actively quickly just trying to cover this up or just shut everybody up. That's my gu. Because if you found it and then didn't give everyone the satisfaction of showing us an image of it.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Show us the feet.

[Em]

Yeah, exactly. Feet. Picks feet. And the fact that they never did that, I'm skeptical of them. But who knows? They did say at this press conference, we got a picture of it. Now, hang on. The picture, the photographer was this like, paranormal expert or supernatural expert, and also a photographer. How convenient. And he, I guess, got a picture of something. And then the police just decided that this was the Buena park monster. It ended up being not an 8 or 9 foot being. It was a random 6, 4 homeless man who had a bunch of grease all over him. And so now the story gets sad because now we're like, oh, man, people were literally hunting down, like a guy who's already down on his luck.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah.

[Em]

Living in the tunnels, lives in a sewer. So he smells like a sewer and everyone is just quoting, just getting quotes in the paper about how stinky he is. He's having a rough time. And so, I mean, realistically, was it Bigfoot or just like a man who was living in the sewer? Probably a man living in the sewer. But I feel bad that all of this press happened on him that. And he's already going through a situation. That being said, the people who are skeptical that this is just some sort of COVID up from the police, and they very strongly believe this monster is real, they called immediately on this picture. They were like, well, hobos don't live in tunnels. That was an exact quote. Hobo. Not an exact. Hang on, here's the exact one. A hobo doesn't walk in the water. He walks along railroad tracks. And I was like, so now we're just super duper stereotyping people who are,

[Stephen Ray Morris]

like, riding the rails, you know, does

[Em]

he also have, like a plaid bindle on a stick? Like, like. Anyway, so they were just looking for any reason to be like, it can't be. I know what I saw. And maybe they did. But it has never been seen since. One of the witnesses, who was a teenager at the time, has since said that he is so adamant he knows what he saw. The Buenham park monster is very real. And he said, oh, this was another. Yikes. They really doubled down on just ripping on this poor homeless man. They said if they would have seen and smelled him, they would be believers. Like, it was. It was for sure a monster. And I'm like, Like, Jesus, like, you couldn't even have a heart after the fact.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

I mean, Orange county is a very conservative part of California, so their attitudes towards unhoused is. That's not surprising that they would just

[Em]

kind of like, we're on par.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Beat on it, like, by the way, you know, like, it's like, I must

[Em]

be right because he smelled so bad. And I'm like, he's already unhoused. Yeah, okay. So anyway, that is kind of where it ended because once people decided at least enough people saw this picture and assumed maybe I wasn't there, I never saw it. Maybe this really was the creature quote. And so enough people died down where the. The hysteria kind of, you know, waned very quickly. So before it fully dropped off, though, CBS's Dan Rather covered it, which is, I guess, a highlight. And also two months later, there was another sighting of very large prints that was, I think it was like 15 inches tall. Like, some big ass print by 7 inches wide. Wow. But also, I don't know if there was like some prankster or just, you know, someone maybe was just trying to put a random fake Bigfoot print on the ground. I don't know. Yeah, I don't know what was going on. But they did take a cast of that and they did have, quote, Bigfoot experts give it a look. And they did say it looked very similar to other Bigfoot prints that they had archived. So good for them. That print, by the way, is now at what's now called the Ralph B. Clark Regional Park.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Okay.

[Em]

Do you know about this park?

[Stephen Ray Morris]

I mean, I've probably been to that park because I played little League growing up.

[Em]

So maybe it was used to be called Los. I'm gonna say Los Coyotes, but it's Los Coyotes, I think Park.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

I mean, I feel like if I saw, if I looked it up, I'm sure I'd recognize it.

[Em]

Okay, well, it's now the Ralph B. Clark Regional park, which in short is the Clark park, of course. And the, the print that I was just talking about, where they found it not too far away. They did say that it did look similar to Bigfoot Prince and it is, it is currently being there. But I want to end on telling you some fun facts about the Clark Park. I think you're going to get into this. Okay, so the Clark park was a former excavation pit. Hang on, I. By the way, this is interesting to Stephen because he's a big dinosaur nerd, if you didn't hear earlier. It is a former excavation pit. It is the OC's paleontology hub with quote, one of the most concentrated fossil beds in Southern California. And it is the only museum. I got all this information, by the way, from the OC register. It is the only museum in OC dedicated to locally found fossils and has has a dozen active dig sites. So. And you can go there and have

[Stephen Ray Morris]

I been doing my whole life.

[Em]

They have an extensive fossil collection with fossils up to 80 million years old. And I just wanted to shout out a few of those fossils that they have in their collection that you could probably go see right now. And also, not only is this dinosaur fossils, I also know you're a big fan of marine life.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yes.

[Em]

So there's a little more of that here. The first fossil that you can find there is a nearly complete 9 million year old skeleton of a whale named Joaquin. They named him Joaquin. And this is a quote from that article that I read. Joaquin displays a period of whale evolution and whales evolved when four legged mammals. Tell me if you knew this.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah, yeah.

[Em]

Whales evolved when four legged mammals living on the shoreline gradually made their way back to the sea. Joaquin skeleton shows that evolution by having the remnants of a pelvis and a femur. So this whale has a pelvis and a femur. And you can go see that there.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

That's awesome.

[Em]

There's also one of those active dig sites I told you about. They recently found a horse there which now they have named the horse Tony the Pony. And they also found another horse's molars. That horse is named Jackpot because when they hit it, they went, oh, jackpot.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Nice.

[Em]

The third fossil you'd be interested in, I think is this hippo like manatee called a paleoparadoxia.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah, yeah.

[Em]

And fun fact, at this place, they have the largest paleo paradoxia to ever be found. It's twice as big as any other one.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah. I'm My friend Gabriel, who does. Who does. Gabriel Santos, who does cosplay for science. He studies those.

[Em]

Well, I bet he's been at Clark Park.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah.

[Em]

And then the last one I'm going to tell you about, I think this will. This is the most fun fact for me. Hopefully it's also fun for you that there are very few dinosaur fossils in Orange county at all. Do you know that?

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Kind of. I feel like that's why maybe I didn't. Maybe why I'm not as familiar with this shark and all their fossil glory.

[Em]

Well, it's because at the time back in the day, the Orange county was underwater. So there's very few prehistoric dinosaur fossils. And they estimate over there that maybe, maybe two to three shoe boxes would hold all the fossils of Orange county dinosaurs.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Wow.

[Em]

And so that being said, although there's very few local dinosaurs to the area, there are nine pieces of hadrosaurs that you can find there.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

That's cool.

[Em]

Yeah. The last thing I'm going to say is that Clark park, only 1% of the museum's collection is displayed for the public. But I have a feeling you could probably get in there real quick and you could see maybe 2 or 3% of the collection.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah, we'll go on a trip.

[Christine]

Yep.

[Em]

Would love that.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

There's tons of small museums like the ALF Paleo center and like the Western Science Museum. All these museums are in Southern California. I've never been to any of them.

[Em]

Really? You strike me as a museum guy.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

I. Yeah, I guess I'm like a mainstream museum guy. Like I've spent and worked with the Natural History Museum of LA a bunch, but I gotta branch out.

[Em]

Well, now you have somewhere to go and it's in your hometown.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah.

[Em]

So anyway, that is the Buena park monster.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

I love that. So it's such an 80s story. It's like Bigfoot comes to the suburbs and it's like a week long, like teen. Like it.

[Em]

It sounds like Godzilla because that's the

[Stephen Ray Morris]

year that E. T Came out too. So like, it just feels like children, monster going on an adventure. Like.

[Em]

Yeah. It's kind of like how in the 40s and 50s they ended up having like the UFO craze.

[Christine]

Yes.

[Em]

Was it because of like World War II, all the spaceships and aircraft that was being built or.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Sure, yeah. I mean, that makes sense. Well, because. Because wasn't Roswell in 35, 35.

[Em]

I thought it was 40 something.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

I don't know. Yeah, I. I'm not a UFO guy as much as I am like, I am ocean and dinosaurs.

[Em]

I do plan to go to Roswell this year, I think for my birthday.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

So that would be really.

[Em]

I'll let you know.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah, yeah. Oh my gosh.

[Em]

But anyway, that is my. My story for you. I hope you liked it.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

No, I mean, yeah. I don't know. I didn't know anything about it. I didn't know that we had our own little monster craze.

[Em]

That makes me very happy that you didn't know it. I would have felt very. Well, I don't know, because if you knew about it, you could have chimed in every now and then. But I'm glad that I shocked you with something about that was local to you.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

No, that's so fun. Now it just makes me want to ask my parents if they remember this.

[Em]

Yeah. I mean, I wonder how far out it's. The rumor spread.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah.

[Em]

Like, was it only like within 5, a 5 mile radius or was like, did the whole town hear about this, like crazy cryptid?

[Stephen Ray Morris]

I mean, but yeah, my mom and my dad, because they, I think had only just recently gotten married at that time. Maybe a year or two before, a year or two after. But they were together at that point and I think they were both working at banks in kind of like Tustin. Buena Park, Costa Mesa, like that part of Southern California.

[Em]

So they must. They probably not must have but like

[Stephen Ray Morris]

pull out a T shirt out of the. You know, like they were on like the monster. Buena park monster. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. Buena Park Monster Team 1982.

[Em]

Yeah, I don't know. That would be. Let me know if you find out anything about that.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah,

[Em]

Rocket Money is the only reason that I'm not splurging out of, out of reach anymore in any category. Because Rocket Money will be like, you got to get together. They say, it's something slid across my desk and it's your spending. And actually we're going to, we're going to streamline this for you. We're going to get this handled.

[Christine]

This is actually now top, top priority. Whenever I go in there and I'm like, can you cancel this? They're like, right away. And I'm like, right away. And they're like, they're like, we actually

[Em]

meant to email you about that because.

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah. And they usually did already. And they're like, we already did this. And I'm like, wow, you are on top of it. Like, I, it's amazing. We obviously love Rocket Money. You know this already. Rocket Money is a personal finance app. App that helps find and cancel unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings.

[Em]

You can also set budgets and goals. You can get personalized insights and regular reports and receive real time alerts for large transactions, upcoming bills, refunds, and low balances. And users who create a financial goal with Rocket Money, they save over 70 on average with the first 30 days.

[Christine]

That's really, really great. Let Rocket Money help you reach your financial goals faster.

[Em]

[e-mail] Drink that's RocketMoney.com Drink RocketMoney.com Drink

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Wait, are we. So it's my turn?

[Em]

Yeah, it's your turn now.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Oh my gosh.

[Em]

I'm very excited. And I also. Round of applause. This even because not only are you guesting, but now you are hosting physically. And I did ask you to, to do research for this, which is already. I, I appreciate all the, the work you've put in.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

No, I, Well, I wanted to, I took this as an opportunity to really dive into something that I'm interested in that I think. I don't know if you know anything about this, but it's really okay. How am I going to frame this story for you? This is very exciting. It's actually not that serious. But it's not, it's actually not that serious at all comparatively. But let's see if I take my notes. But it's funny because it is creature related.

[Em]

Okay.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah, but I wrote like, because it's the thing. I like work with so many people who write, research, do all these like wonderful stories and I'm like, oh, wait, like for C. Jurassic, right? Like, I research for the guests you know, like, if I have somebody on, I'll do research. Like, but I don't ever, like, I guess I don't ever really write a story. So this was like a really fun opportunity.

[Em]

Oh, good. Okay, nice. So let me get my Evian, everybody, please. Okay.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Mozart and Salieri, Edison and Tesla. Michelle Branch and Vanessa Carlton, that hot throuple from Challengers, the greatest rivalries, the great rivalries of our time. This story isn't really about dinosaurs. It's about toxic masculinity. Welcome to the bone wars. What the fuck is going on? Do you know anything about this?

[Em]

No. I'm so excited. What are you talking about? Okay. I'm so excited. Okay, okay. A real time you talk about a mystery.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Okay, well, I was like, is there anything spooky or crimey related to dinosaurs? And this is like the. Probably one of it. I mean, I would say it's like one of it is the biggest, like dinosaur related in that vein, you know, take it away. I was like, you know what? I gotta do it.

[Em]

Oh my God.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Dinosaurs, or as I call them, the prequel to Birds have obviously captured my imagination since I first saw Jurassic park on the big screen in June of 1993.

[Em]

Did you write a paper?

[Stephen Ray Morris]

I did. I mean, yeah, I wrote.

[Host/Announcer]

Oh my God.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Okay, I had a lot of fun with this, but I'm so happy. I. I think you mentioned on our Back to the future see Jurassic. Right. But you did. You didn't see Jurassic park on the big screen.

[Em]

I didn't see it period.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Oh, that's. You still haven't seen it?

[Em]

Nope.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Oh, that's right. We talked about this at Bob's Big Boy.

[Em]

We did.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

You and you and Haley. Yeah.

[Em]

Neither of us have watched. I've seen it. I've seen like clips. I've seen the jello or the. The glass, the water on the table.

[Christine]

Boom, boom.

[Em]

Yeah, yeah, I got it Seems. Seems good. But I've never watched it.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

But what? Because you love nostalgia. Again, we talked about this on Back to the Future. Like, were you like a dinosaurs kid? A marine bio kid? Construction. You know, I feel like there's like different like horse person, you know what I mean? Like there's different categories of kid. Like, what kind of kid were you?

[Em]

That's such a good question. I don't. I mean, for a while I was a space and a spy kid.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Okay. Yeah. Spy gear in the 90s was like

[Em]

huge when everything was like Plexiglas and it looked like high tech because you could kind of see through it.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah. Translucent technology.

[Em]

It really got me going. Yeah, I would say. And I also, I was a big like, speaking of museums, if I ever had to go to a museum, which we did talk about in sign language, she asked what our favorite types of museums are. I love a planetarium.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yes. Okay, so you're a space kid.

[Em]

I was a space kid.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

You never went to space camp?

[Em]

Space and science kid. But I was not good at either. I just, I was fascinated by them.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

No, sure. I mean that's one of those things where I've realized again, obviously I didn't go to that park. Or maybe I've been to that park and had no idea that there was bones there.

[Em]

But like I always wanted like the. It was before my time. But how every kid would get like a chemistry set. Yeah, I always wanted the chemistry set. But I also had a helicopter mom who thought I'd burn my eyes out, so whoops, couldn't. Never got one.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

The alternate timeline here.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

So continuing. Dinosaurs and religion have always been at odds with, with each other due to both being taught to us at a young age. And while non western societies have known about ancient bones for centuries, the idea of an extinct species of animal no longer walking the earth, that God could let one of its creatures die, troubled many. And that is the world that otheneel Charles Marsh, born in 1831, and then Edward Drinker Cope, born 1840, came up as America's leading, pardon me, dick swinging paleontologist. So you don't know anything about this?

[Em]

Every word you just said. I've never heard of ornith. Is that where we get ornithology? Like birds? What's his name?

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah, yeah, I know it's a, it's. I don't know if there's anyone. I don't think anyone's been named that before or after sent him.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

And I mean again, I love a Mozart and a Salieri story. Like I love these like rivalries, you know, like one person feels like the other one is getting success that the other one doesn't deserve giving Hamilton. Yeah, totally. Hamilton's part of that too as well. Although I, I shouldn't besmirch Michelle Branch and Vanessa Carlton because I love them both equally.

[Em]

And that's fine.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

But I just thought it would be fun to throw that example in because

[Em]

you really threw me at first. I was like, what are we talking about?

[Stephen Ray Morris]

And Edison and Tesla, of course.

[Em]

You know, that one was a little clearer to me.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yes, yes, that example makes more sense. That one.

[Em]

That one has more heat behind it, I think.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

But so the first quote unquote. Again, just speaking in western civilization terms.

[Christine]

Sure.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

The first dinosaur bone was found in England in a quarry in 1676. Megalosaurus, I call them like any T. Rex or Velociraptor. I call them meaty boys love that.

[Em]

Okay. Because they eat meat.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah.

[Em]

Okay.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

I know.

[Em]

If it's because they were like they got a thick little tushy or something.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah. I mean, I mean some of these dinosaurs were caked up. But another iconic first find was Iguanodon by Mary ann mantle in 1822. Iguana dawn is like the Disney movie a dinosaur. It has like, it's like a plant eater and it's got like a big spike for a thumb to like get plants fun. Yeah, very like kind of almost. It doesn't look like an ant eater, but it like, you know, it has like claws for non killing things.

[Em]

Sure.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

You know.

[Em]

Sure.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

And then in 1842, paleontologist Sir Richard Owen coined the term dinosaur meaning terrible lizard.

[Em]

Love that. I did not know terrible was involved. I knew lizard was involved.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

And then Charles Darwin's Origin of species published in 1859 introduced the theory of evolution by natural selection. Okay, that's enough background.

[Em]

I still loved it though. I never knew that the first dinosaur was found in the 1600s. Yeah, I, it's, it's so crazy to me that there were people who just had no clue that there were dinosaurs.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

I mean that's why I find it interest. Like that's why dinosaurs are so interesting because it was like the first time people were like, wait, like God let animals. Like people just assumed that all animals that had ever lived were still alive, you know, crazy in western society. And so dinosaurs were like part of this, you know, slow rise of science in our society.

[Em]

I'm shocked that that didn't rattle more people about like the ethics of God.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

I mean it, it totally does. And it's. Yeah, it's a whole thing that I really want to like dive into more because I know a lot of people with religious trauma.

[Em]

If you ever want to come back on, and that's why I drink, you're more than welcome to talk about it.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

It's, it's, that's, that, that's like a. I'm so excited to dive into it because there's a lot of fascinating stuff related to that.

[Em]

So does that mean the 1600s? That means the George Washington, no dinosaurs existed?

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Well, I think by, yeah, by the 1700s people were starting, you know, white people essentially Were starting to find bones of creatures and being like, maybe they were giants. Maybe they were.

[Em]

Got it.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

You know, again, like, starting to be like, okay, maybe they're giant lizards. Maybe they're like, you know, it was. It wasn't really clear. It was just like, clearly these bones don't match anything that's still alive.

[Em]

Something's going on.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah, something's going on. On. Okay, so let's get to know our combatants. New challenger approaches. Oel. Charles Marsh was what you might describe as the traditional stereotype of a scientist. All facts, all study focused on his work and a believer in Darwin's theory of evolution.

[Em]

Okay.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

He wasn't the most social or affable guy and never married.

[Em]

Okay.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

And maybe just a nerd and maybe was on the spectrum a little bit.

[Em]

Sure.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

From descriptions of. I. There was like a. One of his friends described him of like, like he. Even though we had known each other for years, he acted like we had never met. Every time, you know, or something like that. I was like, oh, wow.

[Em]

He was really locked in on his. On his data. Yeah.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah. Marsh was born in New York City, and after his father's business troubles and his mother's death during childbirth. Not his childbirth. The family settled on a farm in Massachusetts, where Marsh was expected to help. But listeners, he was not interested in being a farmer.

[Em]

I don't think so.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

And thanks to his wealthy uncle George Peabody, who's a banker, Marsh didn't have to settle for life on the farm and instead traded up for life of academia, enjoying the study of minerals and fossils at Yale.

[Em]

Nerd alert.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah, but it's like you just. I don't know, anytime you hear stories about like schooling, you know, 100 to 200 years ago, it just is such a different. Like, I went to UC Santa Barbara, so it was just like, well, school on the beach, like.

[Em]

But back then it was like, oh, you made it into a prestigious institution,

[Stephen Ray Morris]

but you went back to. You went to school back east.

[Em]

I did, but I not. Not at Yale, I'll tell you that. It was more of a woo.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Kind of just like I'm just Brick and Ivy, you know, that's how I picture this, you know?

[Em]

Yeah. And. But I also wonder if you were to time travel back and be at Yale hundreds of years ago, how, like, what was the quality of the education? I wonder.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Party at our place. Don't protest.

[Em]

It's like etched into stone.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah, yeah. Thy. Don't be a. I don't know, a Tom Fool. Yeah, yeah, Exactly.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

You know, old timey language.

[Em]

I'm with you.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Edward Drinker Cope, on the other hand, which, again, drinker as a middle name.

[Em]

He would do a great job at my college.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

On the other hand, was a Philly boy born to a wealthy Quaker family and was much more congenial than Marsh. Okay, hold for page drop. I don't know how Karen and Georgia did this when they. I would print them their stories every week.

[Em]

Would they do it with paper?

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah, yeah, I would print out the stories for them every week.

[Em]

Week. Wow. Well, let them know.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

So, to me, Marsh was the Steve Wozniak as Copus to Steve Jobs.

[Em]

Okay.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

So it's like, that's another great. Not necessarily rivalry, but this idea that, like, one person is kind of like the face, the showman, the, like the. This, you know, the personality hire.

[Em]

Yeah, no, I totally get.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

And then the other person is like. Like the actual person doing the work.

[Em]

Y.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

And so, yeah, Cope's religious upbringing prevented him from ever fully buying into Darwin's theory of evolution and natural selection. So just another helpful. Distinguishing between the two of them.

[Em]

Totally.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Because, you know, I've been making these great rivalry comparisons, but it's, like, a little bit different than some of them. You know, there's all. There's kind of unique aspects to each rivalry. But. Yeah, like, I feel like.

[Em]

I wonder how this story. Because if it's. It's. It's. What were the years? They were born in the 1830s.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

They were born 1831. Was Marsh, so he's a little bit older. And then Cope was born in 1840.

[Em]

It's. It's fascinating to me how this information is still out there where they. Did they have diaries where they just wrote about how they hate each other

[Stephen Ray Morris]

or, like, we're gonna get into it.

[Em]

Okay.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah. And Cope was raised to be a gentleman farmer, aka how all millennials now in their 30s and 40s have gotten into crafting, archery, ceramic.

[Em]

Sure.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

ASL. Sure. Analog. So Cope lived off the family dime to pursue science for the sake of science, not profit, and without much proper schooling. He was. He was a vibe scientist.

[Em]

Yeah, it sounds like it. He was like, it ain't. It ain't much work, but it's honest work.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. He was just. Yeah, Cope was the one. He was the. He was the rich kid who was popular and fun, and Marsh was the scientist. Like, I. I just care about my

[Em]

work, you know, like, they're both getting into it for different reasons. Yeah, yeah.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Eventually, Cope did go to the University of Pennsylvania and study under Joseph Leedy, who was one of the OG paleontologists in North America. And then during the Civil War, both Cope and Marsh left the country behind and had their fateful meeting at the University of Berlin in 1864.

[Em]

Wow.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

So, unfortunately, heated rivalry. This is not okay.

[Em]

In a different way, maybe, Maybe.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

But they had spent. They'd spent some time together in Berlin, chatting about their love of fossils, ancient life and more. And they even named some extinct species after one another.

[Em]

Fun. Oh, it's kind of like the reverse wicked, where, like, they seem to really be getting along initially.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

You know what? You're right. It is kind of, like, wicked a little bit.

[Em]

Yeah. It's a. We met at school, you know.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Oh, my God, it really is wicked.

[Em]

And I mean, naming dinosaurs after each other is literally the most bromantic thing

[Stephen Ray Morris]

you can tell, right?

[Em]

Yeah.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Dearest. You know, Cope, I named this tiny lizard after you.

[Em]

You know, I do wonder, like, who got the cooler dinosaur named after them?

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Well, neither of them named dinosaurs after each other from what I remember. They were like. I think it was like an ancient shell and like a lizard. So I didn't get too into again, because this story isn't really about the dinosaurs as much. It's more about these two characters. But. But, yeah, we'll get it. We'll get in more.

[Em]

But it's still very romantic. It is still kind of heated rivalry.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

No, no, I. Yeah, because I interviewed a paleontologist, Dr. Thomas Rich, in Melbourne last year, and his wife, who's also a paleontologist, Dr. Patricia Vickers. They named two dinosaurs after their kids.

[Em]

Get the hell out of here. That's incredible. That's incredible.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

You know what? M Emisaurus.

[Em]

You know, Emma Source isn't that bad.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

M emo Titan.

[Em]

What would you be, though, if you

[Stephen Ray Morris]

had to name it, I'm sure for you, Morosaurus.

[Em]

I mean, come on. A morosaur.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah, morosaur. That's love, too, Amor. Anyway, I mean.

[Em]

Well, we figured that one out pretty quick.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah, I. I wrote now kiss at the end of that sentence.

[Em]

Okay.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Now kiss. Back in America after the Civil War, both men began the. Their professional paleontological careers. Marsh became the head of the Natural History Museum at Yale, which I didn't know where Yale was, so I had to look it up.

[Em]

Connecticut, right? Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

I had never been back east.

[Em]

Oh, fascinating.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

So maybe I should do a dinosaur tour. Like, go to all these, like, old museums.

[Em]

A dinosaur. I mean, hello, The Morisaurus is on a dino tour.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yes. And so, yeah, Marsh became the head of the Natural History Museum of Yale, because his uncle, that rich George Peabody, bought and paid for the museum to be built and was like, by the way, you can have my nephew run.

[Em]

Must be nice.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Must be nice. Meanwhile, Cope became a zoology professor at Haverford College in Pennsylvania and was a member of the Academy of Natural Sciences. So the pair reunited a few years later when Cope invited Marsh to the Marl Pits of New Jersey. Oh, have you ever been to the Moral Pits?

[Em]

No. Is that near Marlboro, New Jersey?

[Stephen Ray Morris]

I don't. Yeah, it's somewhere in New Jersey.

[Em]

Okay.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

New Jersey is, like, trashy Lord of the Rings. Like, that's how I think of the way people talk about New Jersey. It's like a Bruce Springsteen song or like, you know, a Chris Gethard stand up bit. Like, I.

[Em]

The only really, frame of. I mean, I just came back from New Jersey after having never been there. I was born in Jersey.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Okay. Yes.

[Em]

But I never spent any time there, and I have family there. My only frame of reference growing up was Jersey Shore. So in that way, it does sound a little bit like a back alley smelling like a cigarette, which I know is not true as someone who just, like, experienced some wonderful parts of it. But the stereotype they. Everyone from New Jersey seems to rag on New Jersey. So what am I supposed to think?

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah, yeah, lean into it. But then there's stuff like the Jersey Devil, and like, there's like an Americana vibe to it as well that feels very. Like there is fantastical. You know, I mean, I really had

[Em]

a good time there. It was really fun.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

I really want to go.

[Em]

It was pretty fun.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Dream Mall. What's the.

[Em]

Oh, American Dream. Yeah, I have been there. That was also incredibly fun. That was a good time.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

There's a. There's a snow hill. There's a ski slope in there.

[Em]

Yes, I do know about that. We. We're gonna go. But it closed. It was closed that day.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Anyway, so, yeah, the pair reunited at the Marl Pits of New Jersey, where it was like, dearest, dearest momsy, darling Marsh, Would you like to join me in the Marl Pits of New Jersey? My mentor, Joseph Leedy has discovered the hadrosaurus. And it's like, go, bro, Come look at my pits. You know, look at my. Look at my dig site. So, you know, you might have images of Sam Neill as Dr. Alan Grant in Jurassic Park, Although you haven't seen Jurassic park, but others might. So, you know, you're thinking of a. Of a rugged Indiana Jones style paleontologist digging up bones. But Back in the day, these paleontologists, they paid people to dig up, up the bones.

[Em]

Get out.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah, they just would hire quarrymen and miners and stuff and be like, all right, can you just dig up chunks of rock that we kind of know, have bones there? And then.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Send them back to the lab where then they would actually, like, do all the intricate stuff and prepare them and then.

[Em]

Gotcha.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Write the papers and everything like that. So, yeah, Cope nor Marsh never really got their hands literally dirty.

[Em]

Okay.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

And so this is where the first.

[Em]

Okay, drama happens.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Marsh, soon after his visit, would return to the pits and pay Cope's men to send whatever they found to him instead of to Cope.

[Em]

Oh, that's evil.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

The first act of betrayal.

[Em]

Truly. Like, what happened? Like, why?

[Stephen Ray Morris]

I almost think it's in my head, like, from what I've read. And again, I've all list my sources after this, but, like, it's almost this thing of, like, may the best man win. Like, Marsh, I think maybe being more antisocial was just sort of like, well, Copa, Cope's already got enough bones. You know, like, it's. It's. There's no gentleman's agree, you know, there was no gentleman's agreement.

[Em]

Sure, but still, isn't this, like, your buddy who, like, he named a show after you?

[Stephen Ray Morris]

I know, but it was this next hoopla that would turn friends and lovers. That's not. They weren't lovers to enemies.

[Em]

Okay.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

While Marsh was the more methodical and studious of the pair, Cope was known for his storytelling and push for the spotlight again. He's, like, charming, you know, fun. Cope published new papers monthly with little science compared to Marsh's more dry and scientific publications.

[Em]

Okay.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

So, like, I didn't write any specific down, but the. The sense, from what I've read of Copes, is that he'd be like, you know, this ancient bed with this dinosaur stocked the. You know, it was, like, very flowery. Whereas, like, Marsh is like, well, on the tibula, connects to the femur. I'm being very general here, but very stuffy.

[Em]

It seems a little more.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah, just more academic.

[Em]

Serious.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah, yeah. And the. So I like that my important moments are stuck in between two pages, so. Hold, please. So the apocryphal story as depicted in an episode of Drunk History. Love that. In 1868, Cope was presenting his new marine reptile discovery, Elasmosaurus. So Elasmosaurus, think of like a plesiosaur, like, Loch Ness Monster.

[Em]

Okay.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Kind of looks kind of like that. So he's presenting the Skeleton of the Elasmosaurus. When Marsh points at it and goes, I think the head is on the tail and like, pulls the head and like is like, you idiot.

[Em]

Yeah, of course.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

You stupid idiot. And then Cope is like. And like runs out of the hall, you know.

[Em]

Sure.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Humiliated.

[Em]

Sure. Totally shamed. Yeah.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yes. So that story is basically exaggerated because as these two became rivals, Marsh essentially, because actually it was Cope's mentor, Joseph Leedy, who pointed this out. Just sort of like, hey, you know, you know. But then Marsh heard this and was like, I'm gonna just constantly real. You know that time when you put the tape. When you put the head on the

[Em]

ass, rubbing it in.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah, yeah. So. And that basically severed their friendship for good.

[Em]

Okay.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Until the end of their days. Okay, so have you ever had a rivalry with somebody?

[Em]

I'm like trying to think. I think the, like the worst rivalry. I. No, I don't think I have. I think in high school I was. I had a bully, sure. But I wasn't a bully back.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah, I feel like this.

[Em]

I mean, I kind of was because I once I got a microphone in my hand. I said. I mentioned that I had a bully and maybe said her name at one point. Whoopsies. So sorry.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Whoops.

[Em]

Look, it was a long time ago and I hopefully no one has doxxed her.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

I.

[Em]

Look, I do feel guilty about it actually. So. Yeah, I've had a rivalry. We have one now because she said something. Sorry.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

I know. Yeah, I've never really had a true, like friend to. Now we are active enemies, you know.

[Em]

Right.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Like there are like fake beef that I start with people. Like I was starting beef with Jessie Buckley who won the Oscar for best actress last year because she love that

[Em]

you just start beef with someone like

[Stephen Ray Morris]

that because she made her now husband get rid of his cats. So.

[Em]

Oh, you know what? That's a good. That's a royal rivalry, you know?

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Or there was a film school, this very famous director, Mike Lee, who made one of my favorite movies. But when he was. When I went to London film school, he was a total ass to all the students. And so I like, was very saucy back to him. So he probably doesn't remember me, but, you know, it was like, oh, one of my favorite directors is a total asshole. But. But, you know, and I. And I stood up for a friend, you know, in the class.

[Em]

That's great.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Like, but when you're beefing with the director of the film school the first week of class, you're like, maybe I'm not Going to be here for very long.

[Em]

Yeah, no, I, I think I wish I had, like a, A juicier one. I mean, I really, I do actually feel pretty guilty as an adult with a fully developed brain that I had, I had a high school bully and I, I think when in the early years of the podcast, I called her out by name, and now I feel bad because I'm like, oh, I hope I didn't, like, ruin your life. But then also, like, it was 12 years of hell and like, then I grew up and had a microphone in my face and I, I got a little cocky. Look, it's really not a rivalry. It's just something I, I lose sleep about.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

That's, I mean, when people come into your life, they're part of your story, so it's, you're right to tell that part of it too, you know, and

[Em]

I hope everyone here agrees on that. No, I, I, I think the biggest rivalry I have is like, my, my these days is like my Maga family, like, which I don't have a relationship with them. But then there's always that awkward conversation during holidays, like, why won't you talk to us? And I'm like, oh, because you're terrible. Yeah, so I don't really have, like, like a Hamilton.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

No, for sure. Yeah. And I mean, again, how many people really do have this? This is such a, like. Well, okay, I'll get more into it. But, you know, so, you know, we're back to picturing Jurassic park, which just picture desert Laura Dern looking amazing, you know, and some cutoffs.

[Em]

I have seen enough of it to

[Stephen Ray Morris]

know that she looks incredible, our queen. So picture the opening of Jurassic park again with Dr. Ellie Sattler and Dr. Alan Grant out west in America, because that was a great place to dig up dinosaur bones because, sure, I, you know, as much as I love dinosaurs and stuff, I've never actually, like, dug up a fossil.

[Em]

Nope. Have you ever, like, I've done like, the fake, like, the gem, find the gem in the dirt kind of stuff. Yeah, I found them like arrowheads.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

That's something.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

I found like, a railroad spike.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

That's cool.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Metal detector.

[Em]

I don't. Christine does.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Oh, cool.

[Em]

But, and I, she did something recently where she had, like, the, the, the, the really intense magnet and then you go fishing.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Em]

That sounded really fun. I would love to try that. Yeah.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

And then there's even mud larking in the Thames. So, like, the Thames in. They're coming to get us. No, it's a fire truck. It's a fire truck. No, in the Thames. It obviously has, like, a thousand years of history and just people dumping stuff. So when the tides go low, people can go and, like, dig around and you've, like. People have found, like, Roman artifacts, stuff from the Victorian era. Like bottles.

[Em]

I've always wanted to find a bottle at the bottom of an ocean.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

With a message.

[Em]

Yes. Yes, with a message. Like, if it were an empty bottle, baby. Well, this is a waste my time.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah. You want to be, like, dearest, you know?

[Em]

Yeah, I want. I want to find a bottle with a message. I mean, even if it was, like, in the walls of a house.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah.

[Em]

Like, I. One of my friends, she. It's the closest thing to a rivalry I've got. She ends up being Maga. Now, we don't speak, but in her house, she had a message in a bottle because I guess they had some sort of party or something happen where a hole ended up on the wall and they found it happened to be in the exact right spot where there was a bottle. And I guess the house used to be, like, a frat house, and they ended up finding, like, a picture of all the frat brothers and stuff and, like, a note, which makes me wonder, like, if you just happenstance broke that section of the wall. Are there other bottles in other places

[Stephen Ray Morris]

I know, like, how much, like, what's hidden behind.

[Em]

And your house is, like 100 years old, right?

[Stephen Ray Morris]

It's almost. Yeah, yeah.

[Em]

I. I just have hope that there's something in the walls. Yeah.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Just start hammering away.

[Em]

You'll figure it out.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah. No, now I'm just thinking of, what is this feeling so sudden? You know, like, I'm just, like, now imagining these two paleontologists, like, writing.

[Em]

I didn't mean to compare it so much to Wicked, but it's so far, very.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah.

[Em]

I mean, come on. It's like they're currently in their Emerald City moment. Or they've stepped away.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

They stepped away. And now it's like, Elphaba, please. You know, like, I did dress up as.

[Em]

As Glinda in drag. Right.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yes. For Halloween. And then it was mostly actually because Amanda, Goodness from drinking the Kool Aid, and I, we love Wicked, which is how we met, because we watched Wicked together. But Amanda and I did a Wicked episode together on C. Jurassic. Right. So she was Elphaba. I was.

[Em]

I remember the thumbnail of that. And one of you just had green everywhere.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Amanda was covered in green.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

And I look great in a crown. So back to the story. So. Yes. So you Know, the conditions for creating a fossil are, like, really hard. It's, like, really rare for things to fossilize because it's like. Okay, you know, you think about, like, you know, when people find, like, I don't know, like, a rat skull or, like, deer, you know, carcasses, because it's like predators will come and pick it away and then bugs and the sun can, like, destroy bones and everything. But, like, the best way for things to become a fossil is usually they fall into water and then they're covered by sediment, and then millions of years happen, and then those, you know, because fossils aren't actually bones. They're minerals that have replaced. It's almost like a mold, you know.

[Em]

So fossils aren't bones.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Like, they're. No, they're not bones anymore. They're essentially like the minerals have replaced every, like, structurally where the bone was.

[Em]

So it's like a cast of a bone, essentially.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah, yeah. And I'm not a paleontologist, so if I'm not explaining, I'm like, in my head, I'm like, when you're at a museum and it's like, first step to become a fossil, die, you know?

[Em]

And then I had no effing clue. I just thought, oh, my God, you found the exact skeleton.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

I mean, it is like. It's like essentially if you were replaced by rock and, you know, crazy. So, like, over. I think I can't remember what the over under is, but, like, it is, like, I think over 10 million years old. You become like, that's kind of like the threshold for, like, becoming a fossil.

[Em]

So embarrassing if you're in the 9 million and you're like, oh, well, just wait, you'll be fine.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah, yeah. So obviously not obviously, but the deserts. Deserts are a great place for fossils. And like you mentioned earlier in your story, a lot of this, this part of, you know, Wyoming and the Dakotas and parts of California and Nevada and stuff was all underwater during the Cretaceous period. It was called the Great Interior Western Seaway.

[Em]

You're so smart.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

I might have, like, flipped some of those things, but this is basically the area where the Bone wars happened. So, yeah, places like Wyoming, the Dakotas, Colorado were the battlefield of the Bone wars as both Marsh and Cope sent out teams into indigenous people's territories on a race to dig up and try and describe more dinosaurs than the other.

[Em]

So again, really was they were just racing to figure out to just get higher stats or a bigger name in the community?

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yes, exactly.

[Em]

Before the other person.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

And so, like, like I was saying before Cope was much more of like, like he finds a bone and he's like, well, this thing is a blah, blah, blah saurus. And you know, it's it, it stalked its prey and you know, like. And this gentle plant eater, you know, sat by the river and munched on plants like it was more just about that storytelling aspect. Whereas Marsh is like slowly piecing bones together like, well, it sounds like Cope's

[Em]

gonna win the race then if you're taking your sweet time and to study

[Stephen Ray Morris]

everything there, there technically is a winner. But it's, it's like Alien versus Predator where like either way we lose sort of thing.

[Christine]

Sure.

[Em]

It's like, well, we sequels of this movie, it'll just keep there will always. The killers will always be alive at the end. Here we are again talking about Reddit. Somehow I don't know how we became enemies to lovers, but it, it happened.

[Christine]

It's happened. And I knew it was going to happen because every time I get on that Reddit by gone it. Is that a word? I don't know. I find I found out something new that I didn't even realize I was interested in or I get to practice my intuition. You know how much I love my intuition practice, Subreddit, even just the homepage where they just like recommend stuff. I'm like, okay, fine, I get it. You understand my soul. Okay, Reddit, fine, take it.

[Em]

I feel like there's quite a lot of subreddits that I was not letting myself love for quite some time.

[Christine]

And you just gotta lean in.

[Em]

These days I'm falling asleep because it's. Instead of reading books, I read Reddit and I've been diving deep into this one called what is this? And basically people take a picture of something, they don't know what it is.

[Christine]

I love that subreddit. I love that subreddit.

[Em]

And it's like a gasket. And I'm like, that, that changed. You just scroll.

[Christine]

I'm so glad, like you find like wisdom and humor in the comments and you're like, what's hap. What book is this? I forget what book I'm reading. It's. Yeah, I know what it's like. It's really fun. That's why we turn to our favorite subreddits. Whether that's the intuition practice or what is this.

[Em]

Whatever question you're dealing with, whatever problem you're stuck on, Reddit always has the answers. Download the Reddit app and get answers on what this is.

[Christine]

What is this?

[Em]

Download the Reddit app today.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

So and I say this as no disrespect to other podcasters who have covered this story, but the idea that this pissing contest, this competition being overall a great thing, leading to 142 new species named in big press for the then burgeoning field of paleontology, I do think this idea is a little bit flawed.

[Em]

Oh, okay.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Over the 20ish year period of the bone wars, not only would many of these discoveries turn out to be false, they would try and claim each other's discoveries. No, I discovered it. No, I discovered it. Discovered it. No, it's a allosaurus. No, you know, famously, it's an apatosaurus. No, it's a brontosaurus. Like, oh, stuff like that. They would also try. Yeah, they would try and claim each other's discoveries as their own. And they would take other rant like, other paleontologists are like, I would like to be excluded from this narrative. And it's like, I'm taking your dinosaurs too. You know, it sounds like.

[Em]

I mean, it's, it's very rare you get, like, the inside of, like, geeks fighting. Yes.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Oh, totally, totally. It's just.

[Em]

This is just like what, like, lab nerds are all about. I like, I think it's so, so I love this.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

But it feels very antithetical to science, though. And this is, this is the part where it's going to feel very antithetical to science, which is often they would sabotage each other's digs and destroy actual fossils to be like, oh, you guys can't carry out all these bones. We'll destroy the ones that you left behind, because I don't want Cope to get them or I don't want Marsh to save them.

[Em]

Yeah, and it is antithetical to science because I'm thinking at least, like, well, now we can't. We lost evidence. You just destroyed evidence for your own personal gain. Personal gain, yeah.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

And there's also been, like, again, it's one of those, like, apocryphal sort of tales that I think both of these men lead into of, like, he used dynamite to blow up my bones. You know, like that kind of thing.

[Em]

It's not only redestroying it, but, like, who can destroy it better?

[Stephen Ray Morris]

And also, like, again, at this time, you know, it's post Civil War. It's that period of American history, you know, where we're committing atrocities against indigenous groups and stuff. So it's like, like all of that is going on in the background while these two men are sending out teams to go and dig up dinosaur bones.

[Em]

Sure.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Like, just really like, painting a picture of that time. Like.

[Em]

Right.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

You know what I mean? It's like a lot of selfish white men. Yes. Buffalo. Or I just spoiled it. But Cope actually went out on a trip with Buffalo Bill.

[Em]

Shut up.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

You know what I mean?

[Em]

He's just like, woohoo.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Like, we're gonna dig up some bones, you know, and it's just like, like, who's this? Like, you know, what's crazy, kid?

[Em]

You know, like, Like Buffalo Bill, I guess, has his own full rap sheet. But, like, I feel like that should be added to the list of things that people know best about him.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah, yeah.

[Em]

Like, oh, he's done all these things also. He, like, helped dig up dinosaur bones.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

That's crazy. Or just as like, a publicity stunt.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Went out with them.

[Em]

And I don't blame him for the pr. That would be a cool thing to do.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah, no, no, of course it was. Yeah. I mean, so, yeah, they would often destroy actual fossils. They basically ruined paleontology's reputation to the rest of the world for a while. And having interviewed paleontologists working today, they're basically like, paleontologists now are still undoing the damage that these. That these guys did because. Yeah, it's like either they would destroy things, the information that people wanted to know, or because they were just like, mislabeling things and renaming things. So it's like, like.

[Em]

Right.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

That's the interesting thing, like, I learned interviewing paleontologists and interviewing museum people is that, like, you know, trying to get funding for anything. A lot of times most museum stuff is sitting, you know, in the back, just waiting for somebody to study it.

[Em]

Clark park only has 1% on display.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah.

[Em]

So.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

And so a lot of it is because of all this was done so messy, you know, these divas. And it was just like, like, even now we're still trying to, like, you know, scientists are constantly going back and being like, okay, like, let's look at their work. Was it actually up to snuff? We kind of have to redo it. Or, you know, which is why, like, you know, because I don't know if you know about, like, how Brontosaurus and Apatosaurus are the same dinosaur. Like, Brontosaurus was the, like, is the more popular one. Like, you know, brontosaurus.

[Em]

I do. It's a little fun foot.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yes. Little foot, essentially. But Brontosaurus basically was named second, and the original dinosaur is Apatosaurus, which is at some point in the 60s or the 70s, they're like, wait, Brontosaurus is actually the same as Apatosaurus.

[Em]

Are they actually so?

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Well, from my understanding, this is one of those, like, I just remember this as a kid, you know, and. But essentially, Brontosaurus was an Apatosaurus with a different current long neck dinosaur's head.

[Em]

Crazy.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

And. But now, you know, kind of like Pluto situation. They found another dinosaur that's like Littlefoot to give. To give the name Brontosaurus too. So Brontosaurus is a real dinosaur Again, it's just not the same one.

[Em]

2.0.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yes, exactly.

[Em]

Okay.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah, yeah. So. But it's stuff like that where it's like paleontologists are constantly, like, fixing stuff that these two men sure messed up. And so, like, like, yeah, I mean, we can talk more at the end about it, but it's like, I don't know, sometimes I'm just like, is competition always healthy?

[Em]

Not this time around. No, that. I mean, it really. I mean, the fact that you're covering, you're the true crime half of this. I mean, this is a crime against science for sure.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yes, it is a crime against science. So by the 1880s, Marsh was made head of the US Geological Survey and sought to consolidate power and assert his dominance over Cope, who had been publishing way more papers. So. And Cope was running out of family money. He invested in a silver mine that went bankrupt. And here is. Who's this?

[Em]

It's one of them.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

It's Wendy. So, yeah, Cope is running out of Daddy's money. He's investing in things like silver mines and stuff. You know, this is, you know, after, obviously, the gold rush had been a while ago, but, you know, all this kind of prospect and.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Out west, have you ever been panning for gold?

[Em]

Only, like, as an attraction. Not like. Not like real. But, yeah, it's very fun.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

So, yeah, Cope was running out of money. Marsh was head mate of the U.S. geological Survey. And so Marsh, in his position of power, created a law that all fossils discovered with the assistance of the government would now be government property. Oh, so basically he was creating a law so that he could try and steal Cope's fossils back from him, or not back from him, but from him.

[Em]

Giving Trump.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yes.

[Em]

Okay.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

I make a law that helps me. I don't know.

[Em]

Yeah, it feels that way. It's like, well, I'm just kind of like trying to scoop it all up. Yes, yes, yes.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

But Cope was a good record keeper and he avoided Marsha's repo men because it was Daddy's money that paid for these digs, not the government.

[Em]

Right.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

So. But this law would come back to bite Marsh in the end, eventually. Okay, so Cope is now on the offensive. He reaches out to the New York Herald, and like any great diva, you know, takes to social media, AKA the newspapers, with a list of grievances, mistakes, and complaints from former employees and colleagues of Marsh in a full expose, forcing him to resign as head of the U.S. geological Survey.

[Em]

Holy shit. Like, how. How many bad things had he really done? It sounds like he was the smart, nerdy one who would have actually been paying more attention to the science of it all.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Exactly. But I think he got cocky.

[Christine]

I think he.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

He was like, I'm. I'm educated. I go to Yale. I'm the real scientist.

[Em]

Sure.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

And Cope is just the showman. So that's why I think this story is very interesting. Because you're like, oh, yeah, wouldn't like, in some ways, aren't you rooting for Marsh because he's, like, the real scientist, but, like, Cope was actually kind of a nice guy. And I think Marsh maybe, like, almost resented the fact that, like.

[Em]

Like, was he jealous of his popularity, maybe, or, like, that, his. His charisma?

[Stephen Ray Morris]

I think so. I think there's some element of that,

[Em]

because it sounds like. I mean, I could see him either being jealous or at least thinking, like, it's not fair. Like, I'm doing this by the book. And, like, you and your little, like, fun attitude, all of a sudden, like, you get just as much praise as I do.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah. And all the papers and stuff that

[Em]

he was publishing, like, the. The. The insecurity of comparison.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yes.

[Em]

Comparison is the thief of joy.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

It is. And of fossils.

[Em]

And of fossils. That was a great little punchy end. Way to end that, though. That was good.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

So, yeah. So Marsh had to resign as head of the U.S. geological Survey. And then also because of this, our government cut the agency's budget in half. So it was like, not only did Marsh get in trouble, but he also, like, ruined science for a while for people in the US because he got mad with power. And most of his fossils. Because Marsh's fossils were dug up because of government grants. Most of Marsh's fossils were repossessed. So Marsh's own law.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

As Taylor Swift once said, karma is a cat purring in my lap because it loves me anyway.

[Em]

And she actually stole that from.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

So, yeah, just imagine Cope just because,

[Em]

again, it's with his quill.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah. Yeah. Karma is. Is that.

[Em]

Is my boyfriend.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Karma is my boyfriend. But isn't that wild? Like, that just feels like. I think that's why this story is so popular because there's these kind of like cinematic moments, you know, Are there movies about this? So there was supposed to be a movie with. There was supposed to be a movie with James Gandolfini. Oh, Marsh. Tony Soprano and Steve Carell as Cope.

[Em]

Shut the hell up. And by the way, how well cast that is.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

I know, so like Marshall charismatic one. And then James Gail Delphini as the like serious scientist. And then Cope, like imagine like Steve Carell and like massive like when Michael Scott is being like really ridiculous, you know.

[Em]

Oh my God, that would have been. So what happened?

[Stephen Ray Morris]

It was in product, it was starting to be in production and that was when James Ganlifini passed away. So they were literally about to start making it.

[Em]

Wow. They really should have just cast another person and just kept it going. But I mean, I get it.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

I mean I'm sure there's been like TV movies and stuff based on this and there's obviously plenty of documentaries and. But yeah, I. And then actually Michael Crichton, who wrote Jurassic park, he did a fictionalized book called Dragon Teeth which I'm actually, I haven't read yet because it was published after he died. But I'm going to do it because I'm doing a Michael Crichton book club on my podcast podcast this summer. So I'm actually going to read the fictionalized version of this story. So I'm actually really excited to like.

[Em]

That sounds so cool. I mean we could compare. We could combine our passions and imagine a book where you get to time travel to the bone wars and just watch these like nerds.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah.

[Em]

Have like their own version of like a Bravo show.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah.

[Em]

I mean, no wonder this is so interesting to the paleontologists because it has up their jobs and has given them a lot of tasks even today. But also like, I, maybe I'm wrong here. I can't imagine there being a lot of obvious clear cut drama like that in the paleontology world. Or is there?

[Stephen Ray Morris]

I mean that feels, I mean it

[Em]

feels like a high school fight.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah. I mean people are people. So it's always going to be, you know, and dudes are always gonna, you know, have ego in that pissing contest. Yeah. A dick measuring contest. But it's just it because it is like, like almost like the birth of American paleontology. That's why it also. And I think you know, that, you know, the American wet, like it's just like it checks a lot of boxes of like why I think it's captured

[Em]

people's imagination had no idea. I mean, I think I'd heard the phrase bone wars, but as soon as I hear war, I kind of check out. Sure. But wow.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

And then to your point earlier, it's like, yeah, there were. You know, they were like. There was one example that I didn't bring up, but it was like, sometimes they would, like, rename each other's dinosaurs, like, in each other's papers. Like, by the way, it's called, like, this now. Like, whatever.

[Em]

Big idiot. Soros Rex.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah, yeah. Like passive aggressive. So it's like there's records of this feud.

[Em]

Wow.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Over 20 years.

[Em]

Do you know the names of any of them that got named and then renamed? I know. You just did. Brontosaurus.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

The apatosaurus and Brontosaurus. One is the most, like, obvious example. The other ones are very, like. Like, because, again, not only did they discover dinosaurs, but they also, you know, ancient marine reptiles and ancient mammals and lizards and birds and shells and other things.

[Em]

Well, speaking of brontosaurus and Apatosaurus.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Apatosaurus, yeah.

[Em]

You've been to Dinosaur Land or Dinosaur World or whatever it is that's in Palm Springs.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Oh, the cabazon.

[Em]

Yes. Yes.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah.

[Em]

So their gift shop is inside of a dinosaur that I thought was a brontosaurus, but apparently there's a plaque on it that says this is actually an apatosaurus. But, I mean, how is that. Would that be true based on the head shape then?

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Is that because. Yeah, that was because basically when people think of brontosaurus, they're thinking of apatosaurus.

[Em]

Okay.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

My understanding of it just.

[Em]

So is Little Foot an apatosaurus?

[Stephen Ray Morris]

I mean, you would. It's one of those things where you're like. Like, it basically is what people thought a brontosaurus was, you know.

[Em]

Sure.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

So it's kind of like.

[Em]

Well, now I'm curious what a real brontosaurus looks like.

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

I mean. Yeah, the. The new brontosaurus doesn't have quite the, like, you know what I mean? No, yeah, yeah. Apatosaurus is like og little foot kind of thing. But.

[Em]

Sure.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

But yeah. So it's my last little bit.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

By 1897, Cope was dying, living in an apartment surrounded by the only thing he had left. His fossils. His wife and child had left him by then. And what is considered the final fight between the two, Cope donated his brain to science and challenged Marsh to a brain measuring contest to see who is indeed the smarter and more brilliant of the two.

[Em]

That is the pettiest shit I've ever heard. My donating Your brain and then challenging someone else to also donate their brain is so cunty. I don't, I don't know. It's messy. It's messy.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Marsh never accepted the challenge. Marsh died two years later, also alone. So while Cope discovered 56 new dinosaurs, Marsh won, discovering 80 dinosaurs, including such icons as Stegosaurus, Triceratops, Allosaurus, Apatosaurus and more. And that's the Bone Wars.

[Em]

That is incredible. So wait, are there any famous ones that Cope discover? Because you kind of just listed everyone I know, the T. Rex.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

So some people say that Cope like made the first initial discoveries of T Rex, but it wasn't really until like 1905 or 1915 there were some fragments that Cope discovered that people are like, that's a T. Rex. But like he didn't describe T Rex. Like Cope ended up doing like Elasmosaurus, which is a marine reptile and like other non dinosaur related. And again like I think Dimetrodon, which is like an early synapsid, which is kind of like a pre mammal thing. I don't know, it's hard to describe. But yeah, he didn't discover any of the big ones. Like Marsh really won if we're going by like the popular dinosaurs.

[Em]

And that's why science is important.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yes.

[Em]

Sorry, I'm gonna think about that brain one for the longest time.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Isn't that wild?

[Em]

That's so like in death still saying I'm gonna win.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

And he's the showman though too. You know, Cope was just like, this would be like it doesn't really matter because like.

[Em]

No, but it was for the headline.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah.

[Em]

Talk about a headline. That's a great one.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah.

[Host/Announcer]

Wow.

[Em]

I. I know you just said a lot of interesting things, but I'm absolutely. If I ever talk about the Bone wars, that is the bullet that will be at the end of every single time I tell that story. Yeah, man.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Isn't that cool?

[Christine]

Wow.

[Em]

Thanks, Steven.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Of course. And yeah, that is a real. Again I think because I've heard this story a lot and I know this story. It's like what. What's my angle to it? You know, and that's the thing. I just. And I'm curious about what you think where it's just like this idea of some people being like, oh, competition like helped. But I'm like, I don't. I mean maybe, but I feel like there's.

[Em]

It's one of those things where it's kind of a best of both worlds. Like it's like I can see the like. Yes, they Were racing. I don't know. I think I'm leaning more towards it was not a good thing.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

No. And I think you just hear. When you hear from actual paleontologists, I don't think any of them are like, like, oh, I'm glad that like, these two men kind of were messy and like, you know what I mean? Like, I just feel like, like they

[Em]

pumped out a shitload of dinosaurs. Like, I mean that's. That is cool that they, like, who knows how long it would have taken for all those to be discovered if they weren't racing to do it. But they could have also teamed up in the end and just like you cover this half of the world, I'll cover this half and we'll just find them as fast as we can together.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

They could have worked together. I mean, they, they were friends. They like, were friends.

[Christine]

Friends.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Like, I think that's what makes it kind of tragic too.

[Em]

Yeah. You know, or they could have at least found like, like different categories. Like, I'll look up the marine stuff and if I find any, like non marine, I'll give that to you. And that's. They could. They could have worked it out any. In a bunch of different ways.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah. Also there's so many dinosaur bones, especially at that time that, you know, hadn't been discovered yet. Like, they could have just easily not destroyed each other's or, you know, not destroyed their own. Like there was just all these little petty human male ego things that like, contributed to. To me thinking, like, it's at least worth stepping back and being like, was this a net just. Yeah, like it. Maybe it's not a net positive. That's all I'm saying about it. You know, and all that. It is a fun story, but all

[Em]

they had to do was just talk out their feelings. Yeah, they could just. But I kissed and kissed a little bit. I feel like, honestly, what they should have done if I were solving it for them, I feel like they should have obviously teamed up. I think they should have said, like, look, Marsh, you're more the science geek. I think we need you in the lab. This guy's got the charisma that he could go on a whole, like, campaign and get everyone super jazzed about dinosaurs and open up all their museums or open up these parks so we can go digging. And he could have really like, been the. The voice to get everyone interested and then that could have brought even more scientists and on. That would have found even more dinosaurs faster.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah, I mean, that's more like a Steve Jobs. Steve Wozniak thing because, you know, they work together to create Apple.

[Em]

I think they. I think that should have been what happened there.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah.

[Em]

But because also it could have been like nerdy Elphaba and like Pr. Galinda.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Pr. Galinda.

[Em]

Pr Galinda. Yeah.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Thank you.

[Em]

Thank you for being here. That was so nice.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Wait, I want to read my sources.

[Em]

Oh, oh, go for it.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

I gotta. I gotta credit the dollop. They did a really great episode on this back in the day Stuff youf Should Know did a really great episode. The book the Rise and Fall of Dinosaurs by Steve Brusotti. History. This week. Drunk history.

[Em]

Fun.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Tony Hale plays Cope.

[Em]

Oh, that's great.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

And then what's the guy in Law and Order?

[Em]

I'm sorry.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Christopher Maloney.

[Em]

Elliot Stabler.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah.

[Em]

So you really. This is crime indeed. You really watch.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Yeah. Christopher Maloney played Marsh.

[Em]

That's hysterical.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

My Sea Jurassic.

[Em]

Right.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Collaborator, Andrea Cioflo, aka Strange Bird Art, Natural History, Museum of LA Natural History or Field Museum. And then an @GEO article by the amazing Riley Black.

[Em]

Very cool. Well, I'll read mine too. Damn.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

I had. I had to come prepared. You know, I was like, I work with so many people who are so good at, you know, citing their sources.

[Em]

That's very sweet. I. I'm pretty sure we put our sources in below on our.

[Christine]

Our.

[Em]

On our YouTube, so hopefully it's there. But just in case. SFGate, Robo Japan Blog Spot, OC Historical Blog Spot, UPI, OC Parks, OC Register, and then a Facebook page about LA history.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

I love it.

[Em]

I love it. Thank you for being here. Please shout out where people can go listen to you.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Well, you can listen to me on See Jurassic, right? Yeah. I interview again.

[Christine]

Again.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Em has been on. We talked about Back to the Future, but I've also had musicians, scientists. I did a series in the fall last year called the Back to School series where I interviewed paleontologists, science communicators. Ali Ward from Ologies, who I worked on Ologies for many years. The errands from this podcast will kill you. They're a disease ecologist. I interviewed a shark scientist, Imani Weber Schultz. Some of the hosts of Eons. Like, I don't know. I love talking to scientists because they're like, it's one of those things. Like, as a creative person, I'm like, science and math are really hard. And then you actually meet scientists and you're like, oh, my God, these people are creative and charming and cool too. And I'm like, wait, that's not fair. You can't be good at science and be artistic and charming and creative. But everyone I interviewed is great. And yeah, I don't know. That's a fun series to start with, so very cool. Patreon See Jurassic right and follow Stephen Ray Morris Stephen Ray Morris on all the things.

[Em]

And usually this is where we just say and that's why we drink, but I think we should sign it. Oh, I know this is and.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

And that's. That's why. Wait, how. What's why again?

[Em]

Is it this why why we drink?

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Drink?

[Host/Announcer]

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[Stephen Ray Morris]

Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile with a message for everyone paying Big Wireless way too much. Please fill the love. Everything good in this world Stop with Mint. You can get premium wireless for just 15amonth. Of course, if you enjoy overpaying.

[Christine]

No judgments.

[Em]

But that's weird.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Okay, one judgment anyway. Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment of $45 for three month plan equivalent to $15 per month required intro rate

[Christine]

first three months only, then full price

[Host/Announcer]

plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See full [e-mail] your next chapter in

[Em]

health care starts at Carrington College's School of Nursing.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Join us for our open house on Tuesday, January 13th from 4 to 7pm you'll tour our campus, see live demos,

[Em]

meet instructors and learn about our Associate Degree in Nursing program that prepares you to become a registered nurse.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Take the first step toward your nursing career. Save your spot now at Carrington Edu Events.

[Em]

For information on program outcomes, visit carrington.

[Stephen Ray Morris]

Edu sci.