E488 The Esophagus Woes and a Hatchet Granny

Summary

Podcast Summary: And That's Why We Drink – Episode 488

Title: "The Esophagus Woes and a Hatchet Granny"
Hosts: Christine Schiefer & Em Schulz
Release Date: June 28, 2026
Podcast Theme: True crime and paranormal stories, with personal banter and humor

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Episode Overview

This episode features a classic installment of "And That's Why We Drink," blending the hosts’ signature mix of the macabre, the paranormal, and irreverent banter. Christine and Em (not Renee, as transcript speaker labels sometimes suggest) start with humorous personal updates and then dive deep into two stories: a haunted Michigan hotel – the Holly Hotel – with a connection to notorious temperance figure Carrie Nation (“Hatchet Granny”), and the chilling case of serial killer Gerard Schaefer. This summary covers major discussions, key quotes, and thematic highlights with useful timestamps.

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1. Cozy Catch-Up and Mental Health Banter

Timestamps: 03:00–14:00

• The hosts discuss recent mental health experiences, including OCD flare-ups, therapy, medication changes, and the NoCD platform:
  • Christine: “OCD deserves to be talked about, people. Okay, don’t hide.” (03:05)
  • They encourage listeners to seek help for OCD, emphasizing destigmatizing mental health.
• School memories – odd music classes, quitting band class, receiving Ds in "Music Appreciation," and childhood complaints to parents (and how those complaints spun out of control).
  • Christine reflects: “How do you get a D in appreciating something?” (04:48)
  • Referencing parental overreactions and the difficulties of Catholic school.
• On being openly queer in school and suspecting teachers might have picked up on it.
  • Discussion on "gay shirts" and dressing as an expression ("I think if someone who's, like, any percentage gay is wearing a shirt, that makes it a gay shirt.” — 14:00)
• Casual banter about drinking habits, favorite drinks, and esophagus/acid reflux woes.

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2. Personal Updates: Family Life, Babies, and Sleep Deprivation

Timestamps: 17:00–28:00

• Christine shares about partner Allison throwing her back out, picking up extra slack at home, being sleep-deprived, and veterinary visits.
  • “The reason I drink is because I've been picking up a lot of extra slack. It’s been a lot of, like, up and down…” (19:05)
• Em discusses Leona (daughter) having possible asthma or a vocal cord issue and sleeping in her daughter’s room.
• Birth announcements: RJ has a new baby named Leona (“LJ”). There’s a whole riff on how common “L” names are for babies now.
  • “Seems like every damn baby I’ve met the last five years starts with an L.” (23:00)
• Astrological discussion about their children’s “Big Three” signs, comparing birth charts in a lighthearted way.
• Em earned their Reiki Level 2 certification and is ready to do distance healing.

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3. Christine’s Paranormal Story: The Haunted Holly Hotel & "Hatchet Granny" Carrie Nation

Timestamps: 28:00–73:00
Story Highlights: Haunted Hotel, Prohibition History, and Ghosts

The Holly Hotel: History and Hauntings

• Built in 1891 as a railroad inn in Holly, Michigan, later became well-known for its restaurant and comedy club.
• Suffered three major fires (1913, 1978—bizarrely 65 years to the hour after the first, and 2020s), with each fire leading to major renovations.
• Features high tea, comedy, and lore from its long history.
• As of 2024, the hotel closed, pending lawsuit over property lines after the last fire, and is up for sale at $900,000.
• Key Quote: “It’s starting to feel like the Bob's Burgers intro. Another banner, another fire…” (46:32)

The Carrie Nation ("Hatchet Granny") Incident (36:19–43:20)

• Christine relates the story of pro-temperance icon Carrie/A Nation, who became infamous for storming bars and smashing liquor bottles with a hatchet as a form of protest.
  • Changed the spelling of her name so she’d literally “Carry A Nation.”
  • In 1908, Carrie and her posse stormed Holly Hotel: “The group clubbed patrons with their umbrellas and Carrie broke whiskey bottles in the bar with an ax, which is why she’s Hatchet Granny.” (40:01)
  • Her highly publicized actions helped set the stage for Prohibition.
  • Ironic twist: Bars, including Holly Hotel, now celebrate her “protests” with drink discounts and annual reenactments, and there’s even a bar called “Carrie Nation Saloon” funded by the inventor of the Pet Rock.

Paranormal Activity at Holly Hotel (50:00+)

Notable Ghosts:

• Mr. Hearst: The original owner is seen in frock coat and top hat — “Take it off. Come on. Go to JCPenney… You’re dead.” (53:06) — also accompanied by cigar smoke and deep laughter.
• Nora Kane: Former hostess, sometimes appears as a full apparition, sometimes as only a floating head. Signature scent is lavender perfume. Known to photobomb pictures and whisper in bathrooms.
• The Little Girl: Age debated, reportedly running, giggling, and most mischievous in the kitchen — loves moving knives (especially a meat cleaver), plays with teapots.
  • “Her favorite thing to do is play with the knives. Especially there’s this one particular meat cleaver…” (64:41)
• Leona the Rat Terrier: Ghost dog, leaves paw prints and is heard pitter-pattering and grumbling.

Other Hauntings:

• Classic haunted hotel phenomena: objects levitate, old music plays, orders are placed at empty tables, apparitions seen at the stairs, doors slam.

Notable Quirky Banter:

• What outfit would you haunt in if you were a ghost? Hosts ponder comfort vs. style in the afterlife (53:30–55:10).

Closing Thoughts on Holly Hotel:

• The haunted location has been featured on TV and in a so-bad-it’s-bad Christmas-adjacent Hallmark-style movie, “Christmas at the Holly Hotel.”
  • Review from a viewer: “So tedious, so boring, so bad, but like a train wreck I couldn’t stop watching.” (72:33)

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4. Em’s True Crime Story: Serial Killer Gerard Schaefer — “The Human Predator Cop”

Timestamps: 75:55–131:40
Content Warning: Detailed descriptions of abduction, assault, murder, and trauma.

Victims and Survivors

• Focus on Susan Place & Georgia Jessup (teen girls who sought solace in each other after difficult high school experiences; targeted as “runaway” types).
• In 1972, both go missing after befriending “Jerry Shepard” (aka Gerard Schaefer), an older man posing as a supportive outdoorsman.

Schaefer's Pattern of Abuse of Authority

• Schaefer, a former teacher and serial job-seeker in positions of power, became a police officer using forged credentials.
  • “I am really extra super disturbed… Even more than him being a teacher, I’m more disturbed about him being a police officer.” (98:55)
• Known for harassing women during traffic stops, using police power to target the vulnerable.

The Chilling Survived Attack (Major Segment: 88:36–117:59)

• Hosts detail how Schaefer, while on duty, picked up two hitchhikers (Nancy Ellen Trotter and Paula Sue “Sue” Wells), promising safety.
• He brings them to a secluded spot, handcuffs them, and enacts a terrifying mock-arrest, discussing “white slavery” and threatening to hang and rape them.
• Nancy ingeniously frees herself from a noose, survives jellyfish stings and a long river swim to safety; both girls are ultimately rescued.
  • Key Moment: “She managed to maneuver her way out of the gag first, then twist her head to chew on the knot of the noose… She’s so powerful.” (110:41)

Schaefer’s Reaction and Leniency

• Schaefer later calls his boss to “confess” — spinning a tale about “teaching girls a lesson” about hitchhiking.
  • “He told a story to Crowder that… he wanted to teach them the dangers of hitchhiking.” (115:36)
• Fired, psychiatrically evaluated (never followed up), and ultimately only serves six months for this incident.

Discovery of Murders and Trophies

• The murders of Place and Jessup are revealed after their remains are found in 1973—tied to trees, similar MO to the survived attack.
• Police find a trunk in Schaefer’s home filled with jewelry, teeth, and planners—trophies from possible victims.
• Schaefer is ultimately convicted for these murders but suspected of 11–28 killings, possibly more.
  • “Gerard maintained that he abducted the women to teach them a lesson because he was concerned for their safety. And I want everyone to just take that sentence, hold that.” (130:34)
• He is killed in prison in 1995.

Additional Cases & Tragic Patterns

• Countless unsolved disappearances—from teenagers to very young girls—now tied to Schaefer by evidence or confession.
• Some cases, like the 1966 disappearances of two swimming club members, were only definitively linked decades later.
  • “It took nearly half a century for DNA testing… Susan’s mother in her 90s was still alive to receive the closure.” (127:12)

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5. Closing Notes & Reflections

Timestamps: 131:15–132:34

• The hosts reflect on survival, generational trauma, and the tenacity of Schaefer’s survivors.
  • “Despite performing acts of extreme ingenuity, bravery and physical strength, Nancy said she just felt lucky about escaping the whole thing.” (131:17)
• Empathy for listeners, with a signature apology for the heaviness—“Sorry if we bum you out. We love you a lot, though." (132:05)
• Promise to return with more chilling stories, always punctuated with warmth and wit.

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MEMORABLE QUOTES (with Timestamps)

• “How do you get a D in appreciating something?” — Em, 04:48
• “You skeeve me out. What am I gonna do about it?” — Em, on John Mayer, 13:04
• “Her favorite thing to do is play with the knives. Especially there’s this one particular meat cleaver…” — Christine (64:41)
• Carrie Nation: “The group clubbed patrons with their umbrellas. And Carrie broke whiskey bottles in the hotel bar with an ax, which is why she’s hatchet granny.” — Christine (40:01)
• “I’m cosplaying dermatology today, everybody.” — Christine (30:50)
• “Despite performing acts of extreme ingenuity, bravery and physical strength, Nancy said she just felt lucky about escaping the whole thing.” — Em (131:17)

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Notable Moments and Tone

• The hosts’ signature style shines: self-deprecating humor, sincere empathy, vivid storytelling, and moments of absurd, cathartic laughter—even in the face of horror.
• Intricate blending of true crime and paranormal themes: both stories feature historical tragedy, eccentric personalities, and places where suffering supposedly lingers.
• Riffs on ghost fashion, queerness, and old class grudges keep the episode energetic and personal, while repeated calls for mental health advocacy ground the hosts’ community ethos.

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Key Takeaways

• Paranormal: The Holly Hotel is a microcosm of haunted America—where every quirky history gets a ghost, and even the feisty crusader Carrie Nation can become a cocktail (or Halloween persona).
• True Crime: Authority can be a mask for monstrous behavior. Schaefer’s crimes underline the ongoing necessity of scrutiny, skepticism, and systemic change—especially for the vulnerable.
• Personal: The everyday—mental health struggles, weird music teachers, biting children, and awkward therapy moments—are just as deserving of being shared, normalized, and sometimes, as the title reminds us, laughed about over a drink.

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Transcript

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[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

so good,

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

so good, so good.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

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[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Well, not every therapist understands OCD or is qualified to treat it effectively, which can make it difficult to find the right help. But when you find the right help like Christine, then you have a very special friendship. And OCD is highly treatable with a specialized type of therapy called erp or Exposure and Response Prevention. And with no cd, you can do live virtual ERP therapy with licensed therapists who specialize in OCD and ocd. Therapists are highly trained, so they really understand OCD and won't judge you no matter what your thought about. No CD therapy is covered by insurance for over 155 million Americans. So unfortunately for you, Christine, you're not the their only special friend. You know what I'm saying?

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

I do. I want to be. I want this to be the more the merrier, the most open relationship we can all have. Because OCD deserves to be talked about, people. Okay, don't hide. If you think you or someone you know might be struggling with OCD, please don't wait to get help. Go to nocd.com and book a free call with their team to learn more. That's nocd.com to schedule a free call and learn more. Did you ever have a class where you had to? Because I know we both went to very. Oh, hi. Did you ever go to class in 8th grade where you had to learn about music theory? But really it was just this man who had a piano and he would play like, Seeing my sweetheart at the train tracks, you know, that kind of music.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I had like, I. I had that exact man in my class.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Really? Because mine was named Brute. Oh. I thought. I thought we were really on the same page.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I. I didn't have the hello my honey, hello, my darling or whatever.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

So I actually. I actually. I actually faked a sinus infection to quit band.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Okay.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

And then I ended up in Music Appreciation, it was called. And we had to sing songs like, like, hey, good looking, what you got cooking?

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

You know, I feel like there was somebody else I knew who took a music appreciation class, but like, in college, and it was clearly like a. A1 credit, just filler class. And I think it was similar where it's like you just kind of got together and sang songs.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Yeah, it was.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Did you like it?

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

No, I hated it. And I got like a D. How

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

do you get a D in appreciating something?

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

I thank you for asking because I didn't appreciate that Shayna would bring in John Mayer as our, like, weekly cd. And I was like, I don't like John Mayer. And then we had to give like a speech as part of this class to debate something. And Brian, so and so, not going to give away his whole name, did a speech about stem cell research. And I was like, what the does an 8th grader know about stem cell research? And so then I put a complaint in and to nobody in particular.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I was gonna say, wow, the Karen of the eighth grade really showed up.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Yeah, well, I was not the carrot. Well, I was the kid. I. You know what? Fine.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I. Simply because you had good reasoning. I'll say, God knows your heart.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

I mean, listen, I was in Catholic school and they were teaching me that stem cells were like murder. And I'm like, you know, I'm going, these people are dumber than rocks. How am I supposed to be listening to what they know about, like, what the does Ryan know about stem cells?

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

You're just ahead of your time. Because as an adult, I'm with you. But as a kid, I would have been like, why on earth do we care enough? But I, but I.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Because, because then I had to give a speech and I was like, sorry, I don't think that God is like, gonna put scientists in hell or whatever the you guys are saying, and I

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

get a D. That would have been. That's crazy.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Also, my brother would tell you that that is not what happened, but that is in my.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I didn't hear his side.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Thank you. And we won't be hearing his side. I didn't ask forever. Thank you.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I won't be texting him asking for it. So I, I. What would have been the real power move is if you decided to go up there with your speech and then rip it in half and go. I'd actually rather take this time and debunk all the. That you just said that.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

You know, what if I had any sort of self esteem, I mean,

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

if only we could dream and do you

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

think I actually ever put in a complaint? No, What I did was I went home.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

You put a complaint into your own diary? Is that what you're fucking saying to me?

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Here's, here's what I did. I made a huge.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I fully believed what was happening here. Okay.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

I think it's. I fear it might be worse than what you imagine, because what happened in reality is I went home and I would tell my mother these things, and my mother, beautiful Leo spirit with some really unchecked dysregulation. No offense, mom, but we're in qigong together, so I can say that now confidently. And so I would come home and I would tell her, you know, oh, bro, I'm making up a name. Told me. And by the way, my mom was pregnant and was having a baby and was saving the stem cells. So this is the, this is a particular specific.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

You found the exact. Who could be most triggered by this conversation person. And I said, mommy, guess what happened?

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Mommy, they're so mean at school. And, oh, did she come in hot? And, like, was it about me? No, because it. Of course, my mother was very triggered and dysregulated and very pregnant, and she came in, and basically, I got in some extreme trouble, but not only for that. For almost everything I brought home to my mother. And then she would, like, turn around with a megaphone and scream it at the whole school, like, you know, your. Your students are calling my daughter a pilgrim because she wears orthopedic shoes with buckles on them. And I'm like, why did you scream that into the PA System? Like, now everyone is going, you know, like, you made it worse, Mother.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Is that the version that Sandy would say is accurate?

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Even he would say, wow, you're just blowing everything out of proportion. And to that, I say, well, maybe I have some wounds about visibility. Okay?

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Stem cells are important to. To fight for. I'm on your side.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Thank you. And, like, again, like, give me a break. Anyway, how are you doing?

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Fine. Well, please, we're gonna go backwards. What. What was your speech about? Your own speech.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Oh.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

What was your D about?

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Oh, the D was because we had to take a test that was, like, 80% of our grade, and it was just all about these dumb songs about the, like, from, like, the 1910s.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Do you remember any of the songs from the 1910s?

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Yeah, well, apparently not as well as I was supposed to, but I'm trying to think of, like, I feel like there's so many. I mean, one of them was like, hey, good looking. So it's whatever time period that was.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

What you got cooking? How's that?

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Cooking something that's from the 1910s. Something up with me. I don't know.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Simply cannot be from the 1910s. If it is, that blows my mind.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Okay, well, it's from. Sorry, 1951. Okay, well, it. It was music appreciation, and I didn't appreciate it.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Apparently not. Apparently not.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

I lowered my Zolo off this week. Unrelated.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Okay. It doesn't totally show, but my therapist

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

got mad at me, and I said, don't worry. I will consult with a medical professional. And then I did, and now we're okay.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Good for you. I.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Sorry, Hank Williams.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Sorry, Hank.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Rip. I guess. I assume he's dead.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I would have given anything to watch you in this music appreciation class, because mom comes in and goes, you gave

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

my daughter a D. And they're like, what do. What proof do you have that we should give her anything else? And she's like, I don't know, like, Hank Williams. I don't I don't know. Well, so here's the thing. Renee got the. The like, superlative. Like, oh, Renee's gonna be a star. I got the, like, oh, Christine's going to be her backup. And so then I got a big complex about that. But that was how we were sort of pitched to our parents, which was very weird.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Interesting.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

And also this other girl started calling Renee a concubine from France. And so then I feel like something

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Renee would call a person.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

I know. And Renee was like, do you think I'm offended by that or what?

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Yeah, I feel like Renee's like, I've heard worse. Like.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Yeah, no, for real. Exactly. I don't know where I was going with that, except I clearly didn't pay any attention to the drifting cowboys, which, hang on a second.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Sounds like something you would absolutely pay attention to be.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Bruce clutching your pearls was onto something. Maybe I faked that sinus infection and quit trumpet class for a reason. And I'm only now finding.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Huh.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

A new.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

A new love. Maybe this is. It's meant to be recircled.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Look at that hat. What am I supposed to do? Say no?

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I. I don't know what I would do. I just don't know.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

I need to. I need help.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Okay. Did you ever do a public speaking class? I did. What was your speech?

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

I literally dissociated the entire year. What did you do?

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

We had. It was in college. It was like a gen ed random class. I. And I remember a random girl from my high school was also in that class. And she was mean to me in high school. And then I saw her in college and I thought, oh, maybe things have changed. No, she was still not very nice.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Wow.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

But they made us do three different speeches. One of them was like a one minute one. Like a three minute one. And then a five minute one for you, like practice, like length. I guess one of them I did how to play beer pong and then drinking person.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Which is amazing because you mean.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I know. I know the rules better than anyone.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Active. You're like the referee who's like, I'm not playing the game. I'm like observing the game.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Yeah, I know exactly how this Fantastic, fantastic. Another one was I worked at Chipotle, so I think I just told everyone exactly how to make the corn.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

I mean, that has to be an

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

A. I, I maybe, maybe to people who really like the corn there. But the teacher did not seem impressed that I was giving him factory secrets.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

That's what I mean. M is like the teachers are like, no, that's not appreciation. I'm like, I hate John Mayer. Sorry. That's my appreciation for today. But it's not good enough.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

And you know what? Not liking all musicians is appreciation. Can you imagine? Because if you said, I like all of them, you don't give a fucking insane. You have no ounce of critical analysis for yourself, even if it's wrong, compared to everybody else.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Your friend. No one's your fucking friend.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Damn.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Not even Hank Williams and you know what. Or Hank Green.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

And you would say that in front of John Mayer? I bet it's like. It's. Don't take it personally, John. It's just there has to be someone I like, and there has to be someone I don't like. And unfortunately, you fell into the other category.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

You skeeve me out. What am I gonna do about it?

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Sorry about it.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Sorry about it.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Is that why you drink? Do you drink? What do you. You don't drink? What do you drink?

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Help. I'm drinking a morning jolt.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Okay, well, you've heard about these before.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Does it seem that I need that? I did take my ADHD medication. It doesn't seem like it, but I did. And I did take coffee.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

That. Okay, excellent. Remember last time when you perfectly matched that cup and straw? That was crazy.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

I walked upstairs with the bag, and I thought something happened with the straw, and I don't remember, and maybe if I pull the straw out today, I'll remember. And I pulled out a blue straw and I went. I have absolutely no clue. But. So thank you.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I'm here to tell you.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Thank you.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

You were oddly.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

NPR shirt. Oh, you're right. I gotta get that back cut off.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Yeah.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

My gay shirt. Oh, this is pretty gay, too.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I mean, yeah. I think if someone who's, like, any percentage gay is wearing a shirt, that makes it a gay shirt. Right.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

So you're right. You're right, you're right. And that's really a beautiful perspective. I think that's why I got a D. I think he was just homophobic.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I think he smelled it on you and he went.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

He did not. Right.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

That's up.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Gigantic.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

What now?

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Finish the sentence. Every way that I was gonna finish that sentence was not gonna sound good. Like, it doesn't mean, like, inappropriate necessarily, but just on any level that I was thinking of ending that sentence, nothing. And nothing landed in a very correct way.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

You certainly locked me in with curiosity. I was like, how could it go?

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

I locked you in, and then I left. And I said, I can't fill in the blank.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I think if you had the ability to have just walked out of the room when you. You would have just done that.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

He had a huge he one time. Broke the piano. He jumped on top of it. He didn't. He was a he. Okay. My higher self came back and said, what the fuck is going on in here? Christine, get it together. And she says, bruce was a fine man and you had some serious issues at home, and that's not his fault. And you know what? It's okay. You quit trumpet class, and now you know about the Drifting Cowboys. And they can sing. Hey, good looking to you. Any time of day, day or night.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

And without looking. What year did they start singing that?

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

1951.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Yep. Good job.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Is that right?

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

That's right.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

See, Bruce.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Yeah. And now we appreciate them a lot more than he ever could have taught us.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

That's exactly right.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

What you drinking?

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Just kind of this and that. Like, I. I have a drink, but it's a little old. I should have drank.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

I did. I did. I did hear the sound of the water, of the liquid, of the. Of the water down.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

The slurping of me trying to get through, like, the layer that was once ice. Ugh. And also, I gotta be honest, now I'm getting some heartburn situations happening over here. So, like, I don't really know. This is my favorite drink.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

You know, it's. It's interesting. You lean back as you had the heartburn, and I saw almost what appeared to be smoke rings on your shirt. And I was already about to compliment the shirt. What's happening here?

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

It's a little tugboat. It's a little tugboat.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

It's a tugboat.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Yeah, but it's. It's actually. It is high. It's.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Well, I thought it was going to be a hookah situation, like the caterpillar, but now I'm seeing it's more tugboat.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Yeah.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Okay.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

High Tide.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Oh, I'm into that. High Tide. I'm into that.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

It was when we were in New Hampshire last. Yes. I don't understand the reference. Maybe the store was just called High Tide. But the. The tie dye really spoke to me, and I was like.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

I mean, the colors were.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Yeah.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Really good. Really good.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I was like. And then I. I gotta be honest, I didn't even know. I didn't even really look at the design until I got home. And I was like, oh, it's a stoned boat. I was like.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

And honestly, should have looked. Yes, correct. That's perfect.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Anyway, I know this part up here

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

is really getting Me going, even the rings, like, the little smoke rings. I'm like, oh, that's kind of intriguing.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Yeah. Because it's, like, inverted tie dye on the tie dye or something. Yeah.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

But I'm sorry that. To hear that it's illustrating your acid reflux.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Yeah, I'm not. Today is just, like, an interesting day with my. My esophagus. So.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Yeah. You know, some days it just wants to act up.

[Narrator/Ad Voice]

She's.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

She's got a mind of her own. It's, you know, whatever. I. Why do I drink this week? Ugh. Allison threw her back out. And, like, this is the big one. This was the big one.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Shut up.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

And so I've been there, and it blows.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Oh, no.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Remember, I did it in front of you. That's when I threw my back out the worst. That's when I literally sprained my spine.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

I will literally never forget the image of. You bet. Like, literally tabletop and, like, hobbling to your car away from my house. And I was like, I can't help you. Like, I went and opened the car door, but I was like, you're literally, like.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I don't even know if we were, like. If we knew each other that well yet. I feel like it was really early on.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

We. We were doing the podcast, but I had just moved. So we were, like, a year into

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

the podcast, I guess, because I. I remember feeling, like, embarrassed that I was, like, lying.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Well, no, I think I was having a party. And so, like, you came over and, like, immediately injured yourself and laid down, and we were like, we'll stay there. And you were like, I'm actually in need of medical intervention. I had never.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I had never felt pain like that in my life, and it was because I bent down to give a dog a treat. That was. Yeah, yeah.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

I'm sure there's an epis where we did this so far, endlessly. But I would love to go back and listen because I'm sure we. I'm sure I described it in riveting drunk detail at the time.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Well, it was. It was so out of control. I was like, I've never. I hope to never feel back pain like this again. And Allison's currently going through that.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

It debilitates you, I mean, to your whole. Obviously, like, your whole being.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

So I don't really get to make this the reason why I drink. It's more the reason why Allison would drink. But the reason I drink is because I've been picking up a lot of extra slack. It's just been a lot of, like, up and down and grabbing things. And so I. I'm just a little extra sleepy because, like, I've been having to get up earlier. Like, Hank had a vet appointment yesterday, so I had to wake up at, like, 8am just to go bring him there. But then I thought, oh, I'll come back and I'll relax a little bit. It was yesterday. Every single hour I had a thing I had to be at, or I

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

had to be like, oh, God, my nightmares.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I was just running around a lot. It's like I. I wasn't really doing. I. Like, I wasn't. I don't know. It just felt like a lot to me based on what I had prepared for the day. And then I realized, oh, I'm gonna have to, like, really, like, double up today.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

And you're, like, running on empty. Yeah.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Yeah. I was just. Yeah. So anyway, it's just, like, a silly little thing that I was. It was just a long day yesterday, and then I didn't get to go to sleep as early as I would have liked to. So I drink because I'm sleepy. That's.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

I get that, man. Last night, Leona woke up with some weird. We think she has, like, a. It was like, one in the morning, and Blaze and I were, like, both, like, jolted awake. She's like, does this coughing, like, this whooping cough sound? But it's not like whooping cough because she's, like, four now. And it'll happen when she gets stressed, and then her vocal cords will, like, kind of close up, and so she'll start freaking out, and it'll, like, make it worse. But it's like this wheezing, and she has trouble getting a breath, so it sounds kind of like asthma. Anyway, so that happened last night, and then I.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Does she have asthma? Or, like, could she. And we just don't know it yet.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

I don't know. We're gonna take her to the doctor and see what it is, but it seems to be almost more of, like, an irritation when she coughs or gets dry. A dry throat, which I don't know. I don't know much about asthma, to be honest with you, but blazing says something with the vocal cords. But, yeah. So I slept in a chair in her room last night, but the chair does go back really far, and it's super cozy, so I'm not complaining. And I had my note. I mean, not an ad, but with. They are a sponsor. My Lola blanket that I keep in there for those purposes. So I slept actually quite well, considering. But, yeah, I'm sorry about Al's back. Fun fact. I did get my Reiki Level 2 certification yesterday, so I'm sure. Thank you. I'm allowed to, like, fully practice now on. On others, so if she ever wants some distance healing.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Yeah, that would actually. I couldn't have gotten in better. Perfect timing.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

All of a sudden, everyone's falling apart. I'm like, I'm ready.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Speaking of Leona, did you hear that? There's another Leona in my life now.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

I saw the post and I went, well, I better hear about this news because I have never seen a cuter baby in my whole life.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Not even Leona number one. I know.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

I mean, really, that's the cutest little baby I ever did see.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Yes. So another reason why we drink this week is because RJ Is a daddy now.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Mazel to rj.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

He also has a Leona now.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

I can't believe it. I thought my eyes deceived me. Another Leona in your life.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

They're calling her LJ for rj.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

LJ is very cute. LJ is very cute. I mean, you know, when I named Leona Leon, I was like, how many fun nicknames? Leo. And then. No, just Leona.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

So I. It seems they. Because I think your pitch was like, oh, Leona, we're going to call her Blank. He just immediately, literally just started texting me, being like, lj. Lj. LJ or Leo thing.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

You have to really decide.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Lock it.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

You got to decide for them. And I was like, I'm not going to decide for. For her, but. And there's also a Leo in her class, so it's like, you know, it's too confusing.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Unfortunately for you, Leo, which is an incredible name, is like the new Kyle

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

or like, I know it's like that

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

or whatever, you know, like, I'm not like. And it's like every class is gonna have one.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Oh, I know. It's a very common name now, especially for boys. Yeah. So it's so Leona's. Maybe that is that. Did they have a connection to it? Did they. Did they just like the name? Do we know?

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

They didn't tell. They. They picked up the name really early into the pregnancy, but didn't tell anybody the name.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Oh, it's so good. Not that I'm biased.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I had a hunch it would start with an L, because every damn baby I've ever met in the last five years starts with an L. That's true. Everyone's got an L baby. So I, I, but I. That was me making, like, a silly Theory out of it. And then he said, leon. And I went, are you kidding me? I was like, we've already got.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

You literally could have been like, oh, the name's Leona. Oh, no, I'm just thinking of an existing baby with that name. Like, oh, no, that's actually it. That's crazy. I don't know any. Well, there is actually one other Leona I've met Leona's age. So, yeah, here they come, the Leonas of the world.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I mean, if Leo's gonna be big, every variation of Leo's gonna be big.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

That's right. True. Good point. Well, congratulations to them. I'm so happy. Cute baby.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I. I've only seen a few pictures. She does look very cute.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

What an angel, darling.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Yeah, so that's. That's about it. And they. It was, by the way, thank you to that little baby for holding on for, like, 48 hours, or he would have shared the same birthday. And I.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

What was the birthday?

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Okay, so I already did the big three. Don't worry about it.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Oh, great.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Sorry. I'm telling your kids. Big three. Well, obviously, the sun is Gemini. The birthday was June 5th, so we've got a third, fourth, and fifth. Now you and me.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Shut up.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

And I was telling.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

I have another friend, Fiona. Gemini. Hold on. I'm having, like, some feelings. Some big feelings.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Well, I have another friend who also had a baby in June, and I was like, it cannot be my birthday because otherwise you're not gonna come to my birthday party. Because your kids got a birthday party. Now we gotta share the birthday party. So.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

And then there's gonna be not enough juice boxes for you and all the children. It's gonna be a tragedy.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

That's what I'm saying. I'm glad. So now we get two birthday parties. That's what I wanted. I want two birthday parties. Now you get to celebrate me. I can celebrate them. Baby is also. Is a June baby exciting?

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

This is so exciting. Is that an L baby, too?

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

That's the only one that isn't an L baby. Oh, okay. So Lil LJ for the masses.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Yeah.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Is Gemini, Sun, Aquarius, Moon, Sagittarius rising.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

The baby's gonna be a handful.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I wrote. I. I wrote back to him, and I said, she's gonna be so hysterical.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

I was like, she's gonna be a riot.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

She's gonna be the funniest little kid.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

She's gon riot, dude. Yeah, she's gonna be a riot. And also, like, I'm not to be completely biased, but Leona Gemini sun, same.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Yes.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Aquarius moon, same.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Really.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

The only difference is I'm also an Aquarius rising, but SAG is Gemini opposite.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Oh, sorry. Now we have to decipher which. L.J. we're talking. We're talking about.

[Narrator/Ad Voice]

Sorry.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

I mean, she's a Libra sun, Libra rising, and a Leo moon, which is. You know, how silly it is? Silly? Because it's fucking, like, in my face. And also, the moon is like your mother. Like, kind of like a mother symbol. And, like, hers being Leo. And I'm just like, you're. It's like she needs me to, like, see her. And I'm like, girlfriend, I see you, babe. Don't worry. I see you so hard.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I don't know. I mean, I just don't know about

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

the way Leo so moon. Sorry, I just kind of. I didn't even really realize that. But to have a Leo moon. And I named her Leona without obviously knowing what her moon would be anyway, that's kind of cute.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I was. I'm curious. Like, the sun is the father sign, right? And the moon is the mother sign. Or is that not how it works?

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

I don't know. I don't think. I think the sun's more just like your, like, life force. Like, how you present to the world.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Because I feel like it's very interesting, first of all, the fact that, like, Libra is, like, like, balanced and grounded and all that. And the fact that her son and her moon are both so grounded and. Unless I'm wrong, but that sounds like she's gonna be such a calm baby. I know. Well, didn't you say she's Libra? Libra, Leo?

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you know, I wish, but she's a very. She's very intense. And I think the Libra that comes out of her is like, my brother. Like, every. Like, semantics are very important. Everything needs to be pretty much even. She won't forget a single thing you've said. Because if you said it, you know, that's your word. And your word is like. She's like, I'm not gonna forget a single thing. Like, I'm like, easy breezy, whatever. You know, things change. She's like, you said that, and I'm gonna make you stick to that. And I, you know, it's. It's a little, like, intense, but I think she's gonna be. But she's a charmer, you know, She's a social.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

That is true. That's true. Anyway, I didn't know that was so big.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Excited for Little Leona.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I know.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Leona. Gemini. I mean, this is crazy town. Oh, how do I befriend a baby without being weird?

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I know. Don't trust me. That's. As someone who's All. All my friends are having babies. I'm like, I'm gonna get real, and you're gonna watch your babies.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Two, like, really wild Leona, like to, like loud Leonas in your life, I imagine.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

That's fine.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

That's fine.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I love that for you, it can be loud.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. They're just matching your energy. Don't worry.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

It's exactly right. Okay. I know we've gone deep into the. The. The yapping these days or at the beginning of this, so I'll jump right into my story.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

I know it does feel like it's been days that we've been talking.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I. I know it. We've only got so much time today because you're running off to do some stuff.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

So guess what I have to do. I have to lift weights with my strength trainer that I have now because I'm.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Are you a gym rat? What the Is going on?

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

No, I just am, like, broken, and I'm like, somebody help me fix my body.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Chi, qigong, and now also this.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

And also jiu jitsu, and also. And I do yoga in the mornings, too. I'm. It's called sobriety, I think, is what's happening. And also mental breakdown.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

It's giving, like, not as an insult, but, like, almond mom or something. It's like, oh, I've got my everyday scheduled with a different thing. No judgment. I'm just like, this is so not what I'm used to.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

That's the fun thing about it is it's not taxing, like, physically taxing. Like, it's just all very, like, chill. Like, it's like at Jiu Jitsu, it's like, oh, and I roll over like this, and then I put my arm here, and it's like, you know. And then at yoga, obviously, it's, like, very, like, centered. And then at strength training, she's teaching me, like, better breathing technique. It's like very, like. Like better breathing and, like, pelvic floor issues and, like, very centered to, like, postpartum bodies and stuff like that. So it's. It's. It's cool, but it's very. It kind of all just happened at once. And then Reiki training. I don't know. It, like. It's weird. It just kind of all happened at once. Not intentionally.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I mean, you just. You're like, Just like, probably the most fit person I know these days.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Oh, trust me, I'm not. Oh, you've seen the video of me doing qigong with the flying pig, right?

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

You look great. You look great.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

I mean, thank you. But it's not necessarily, you know, like, I'm not making gains or whatever. You know, people say I'm just kind of vibing.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Well, proud of you.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Thank you. Oh, this old thing?

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Oh, this. Are you talking about your hair? I was gonna say to all my thirsty little rats. I know sometimes I force you to take your meds, and it's really a reminder for me to take my meds these days. I'm gonna. I'm just gonna add neutropol onto that because this dome is shining lately. My mother is the queen of reviewers

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

of this, and she's got, like, gorgeous locks. So if. If that woman is trusting Neutrophil, I feel like we've all got to look up to her. You know, thinning hair is much more common than I realized, and so it's really kind of exciting to see that other people are, you know, facing the same issues and handling them the same way because it really does work. And I'm. I'm feeling better than ever. So thank you. Nutrafol.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Nutriful is the number one dermatologist recommended hair growth supplement brand. And it's the number one hair growth supplement brand personally used by dermatologists. I didn't know I was a dermatologist because it's also the one that I

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

purchased when I did with my brother, and he said, don't say you're a dermatologist. Dermatology. But it was too late.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I'm cosplaying dermatology today, everybody. And I'm demanding. I'm demanding that you follow me and all the other actual professional dermatologists.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Medical professionals. Yeah. On board.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Because Nutrafol's hair growth supplements are peer reviewed, NSF certified for sport, and clinically tested.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Let your hair be one less thing to worry about. See visibly thicker, stronger, faster growing hair in three to six months with Neutrophil for a limited time. Neutrophil is offering our listeners $10 off your first month subscription and free shipping when you visit Nutrafol.com and enter promo code DRINK.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

That's Nutrafol.com spelled N u t r-a f o l.com promo code DRINK. This is a hotel.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Oh.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

The best part about hotel stories at this point is we can fly kind of right through them. We can just.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Also, I miss going to Hotel. I haven't traveled to a hotel in a long time, and I'm like, I kind of miss, like, a hotel moment. Not. I don't think I ever thought I would say that, but I. I miss a hotel.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I miss a hotel. I don't miss traveling to the hotel, but I miss.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

No, I don't either. The moment I start thinking about it, I'm like, never mind.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Well, this is the Holly Hotel in Holly, Michigan.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

I just love that name, Holly. It's one of my favorite names.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

It's a good one. The Holly Hotel was opened in 1891. And like I said, we can kind of fly through this history. Everyone can just repeat it with me that it was built to be a railroad in for people passing through from the. Near the nearby line, baby. Yeah.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

No, there's one. That's the. That's the one I keep thinking about in the back of my mind. I don't know. It's like, haunting me. Chattanooga Choo Choo.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Is that. I wonder if that's.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

That has anything to do with, like, ears ringing. I feel like there's some. Is this a psychic message? What's the Chattanooga Choo Choo?

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Does it have anything to do with, like, when you like how you say Chattanooga sound like a train?

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

I mean, I. It's a town in Tennessee.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I know, but, like, you know, people say Chattanooga, Chattanooga, Chattanooga. It's like, sounds like a train.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Oh, I did not know. I guess I had no idea. Bruce didn't teach me that. That's a cool fact.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Yeah, Bruce should have. Chattanooga, Chattanooga, Chattanooga Tutu.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Oh, that's the Glenn Miller Orchestra, which I have discussed, was my MySpace artist for a while. The Glenn.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Everything about you is different than what anyone else would say.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

That's because I'm an Aquarius rising and moon, and nobody can take that away from me.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Well, eat your heart out, Bruce, and all the music appreciators, because somewhere in this hotel, I'm sure some vaudeville music was playing.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

I love it.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

So it was a railroad in for people passing through from the nearby train line. It was like over 25, 30 trains coming in every day. So they needed somewhere to stay. Okay. And per usual, because businessmen and politicians would be passing through, this hotel need to be very, very elegant. And yet it was also the hub for all the locals. I'm literally just like, I. I promise, I like my job, but I'm over the storyline. It was known mainly for its restaurant. I guess that was one of the ways they really got people to keep coming in. It's like, well, you gotta try our food. But then by the 1940s. What song was playing in the 1940s?

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Oh, this one. Chadanuga Choo Choo. 1940.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Perfect.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

It was all the rage.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

So now everyone played that in their head. And the 1940s, cars and highways were becoming more common, so less people were taking the train. So there was no longer a need to like stay a night at a hotel in the middle, as if it's a layover. And eventually they just stopped really trying to be as much of a hotel and more of focusing on their restaurant. And then to keep entertainment coming in, they opened up a comedy club in there. So it was now a restaurant and comedy club held high tea on Sundays

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

or on every episode. So what I'm sensing here is that instead of like designing a program, they almost found the people who could offer their talents. So, like a chef was like, I could make food. And like, clearly his food was really good. And they were like, okay, we've got like a excellent restaurant. Then someone was like, what was the other thing? Not before the high tea. Yeah, Someone clearly had to be a comedian first to be like, well, we have some funny talent here, so I love that they're like bringing in the talent, being like, how can we utilize this?

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Or maybe someone just kept coming to the restaurant, was so funny, they were like, just get up there and keep talking.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Just give them a mic. Yeah, yeah.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

So they started really focusing more on that. I mean, this was closer to like, you know, this was many decades in, where eventually it's now just a restaurant at a comedy club. But that's probably basically. Eventually prohibition kicked in, and while they couldn't serve alcohol, they started trying other things to keep the hotel afloat. And that's when they realized that entertainment was useful. And so then after prohibition, they kept bringing in entertainment with the restaurant and eventually it just became a comedy club.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

They were like, we don't have booze. I guess we'll hire a stand up comedian.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

People love that.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

That's a terrible idea. But okay, I guess it worked.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

So it was originally called the Hearst Hotel because it was built by a guy named John Hurst. It was later renamed the Alpha. Nope. Allendorf. Just not even better than what I was gonna say. Allendorf. Then Hotel Norton, and then it became the Holly.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

So best one. Best one for sure.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

And also, like, Holly's the name of the fucking town. Like, yeah.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

I mean, yeah, don't be ridiculous.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Gonna work every time.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Norton. Get it, Get a grip.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Get literally, hey, hey, here's A grip. Get it.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

I'll wait.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Let me know when you go. Get it. Okay. One of the most notable pieces of history that happened in this hotel was in 1908, which was how many years in? Like 17 years into this hotel existing in 1908. Do you know the name Carrie Nation?

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

I don't think maybe.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Beautiful. Okay, so next to this hotel, there was a street called Battle Alley. And it was called Battle Alley because there were so many bar fights happening in that street that they were.

[Narrator/Ad Voice]

Oh.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

I was like, oh, from the. From the Civil War? No, they're just bar fights. Okay.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Truly just from bar fights. And so because it was only this rowdy because of booze, this intrigued a group of pro temperance people.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Of course it did.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Who? One of the people involved was Carrie Nation. Her. Her middle initial is A, by the way. And so she later changed her name spelling from Carrie C A R R I E to C A R R Y. So her name could be Carry A Nation.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Don't be ridiculous. I mean, it's already Carry a Nation, which, like, let it be, right? The cool thing. Don't, like, force it into something that it's already is.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Like, people are already making the joke for sure. So, like, you don't need to, like,

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

it's like you're saying you're going taking it one joke too far, you know? Yeah, yeah.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Like, we're already on board. Like, we're already talking. Yeah.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Spelled the same. It sounds the same.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

So she.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Well, she. She hopefully was not the comedian at the restaurant because she's not very funny,

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

but according to Wikipedia, she's also known as Hatchet Granny.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Oh, now we're talking. That's her drag name.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I was gonna say that's her on stage after hours

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

when she's actually a drunk and she's pretending like she's really not. She's not part of the temperance movement.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Yeah, don't tell them.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Don't tell them.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

So in. So she's in this pro temperance group. I think she actually created or founded the pro temperance.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

She's projecting.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

And her. Basically what ended up happening is the way she got into all this is that her husband died of alcoholism, which led her to, like, praying to God, being like, what should I do to get people to never have to deal with this again? And I guess Jesus told her to

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

make everyone carry a nation. Okay. I mean, like, it speaks, it writes itself.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

So she. So Mr. Nation dies, and then she's like, well, now I'm gonna go on all these protests to make sure that we just stop condoning drinking.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Okay. I can understand the sentiment. I do. I. I wanna. I wanna say that we started in a good. Tragic, tragic story.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

You started in a good place or with good intentions.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Yeah.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

She would go basically, not. I wouldn't say door to door, but she would find the big bars in an area where or wherever alcohol was served, and then she would just walk in and just start smashing all those bottles and all those. What? She just.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

That was her fucking. That's full blown vandalism. Like Jesus at the temple. Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

So one of these places was Holly Hotel. Oh. And. But she was. This time she went with her, like, her group. Over time, she kind of like, of

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

course created a posse.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Creator to posse.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

There was a time where she created. They. She just attracted it. I bet you there were times that

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

she kept vandalizing and vandalized that she eventually got, like, arrested for it and came back. And then she, like, came out swinging even harder and was like, now we're gonna go to every bar. And so.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Whoa. Yeah. She's like, nothing left to lose, man.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Yeah. And so when she got to Holly Hotel, this is a quote. But the group clubbed patrons with their umbrellas. And Carrie broke whiskey bottles in the hotel bar with an ax, which is why she's hatchet granny.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Oh, okay. Now I'm loving this. I mean, I'm not loving it, but I'm also kind of, like, intrigued.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

You know, I respect any woman, especially in the early 1900s, who was able to protest at all.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Yeah. I mean. Yeah, you gotta. Yeah, that's. That's a feat in and of itself. You're right.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

And you know what I mean. The definition of a protest is to disrupt society and to go to their drinking holes and say, you. And smash all their booze. That couldn't.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

I will say it's not really gonna. I don't think it's gonna work. I don't necessarily think the people there are, but maybe. Maybe that's not the point. Maybe the point is you're making a name for yourself. And that's. I don't know.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

The irony is that they probably thought she was hammered.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

I mean, maybe with. With God's. With the Holy Spirit or something. Yes.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Drunk with God's love.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Drunk on. Drunk on Holy Spirit, drunk on Jesus.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

So her efforts actually did later help prohibition pass. Yikes. So she was probably the most hated woman in the world to a few people.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Wow. So she really did okay. I lied. I was like, oh, she's not really going to do anything with that, but apparently she wasn't.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I don't know if she was directly involved, because I think by the time she passed away, prohibition hadn't even happened yet. And it came later, But I think she was at least the first steps into, like, people showing that they were not for.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

She clearly, like, made a following or had a following.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Yeah, Right. However, in the biggest fu. Way possible, a lot of bars, including Holly Hotel, they commemorate her protests there by now having, like, annual reenactments and, like, discounting their drinks.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

I thought you'd say there's a cocktail named after her, which I'm sure there's plenty.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Oh, I'm sure there's something.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Oh, my God. Doesn't it feel like the ultimate slap in the face? So, like, what's her name again? Oh, carry on, Carry on. I mean, you really could get a little crazy with that. If you wanted to make a little cocktail after her, which is kind of fudged up. I would hope it'd be a mocktail.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

At the very least, you could have a sign outside on the day. The anniversary and just say, like, carry a drink around.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

You know, like, just open. Open container.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Open carry.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Yeah, open carry. So. Oh, open carry. Holy shit, that's good. Don't let. Don't tell the NRA about that, because they're gonna take. Take that and run with it.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

That's an open carry. I'm.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

I'm chill with Open Carry A Nation. So, anyway, so basically, the hotel would

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

have, like, annual reenactments of, like, crazy, like, someone actually coming in and, like, pretending to, like, be Carrie Nation. They would have discounts on their drinks that day, but they have, like, an annual event about the day that she came in similar bars. I. This is. I'm just. I looked her up very quickly because she's not supposed to be the main character of the story, but this story is pretty quick. And so I was just trying to find a fun fact for us to deep dive into, and this is the one. So I did a quick Wikipedia search on her. I did not, like, go very deep into it, but other bars that she, like, vandalized also do this now. So, like, it's not just Holly Hotel, but there's a bar in Missouri that is called the Broken Hatchet Brewery that I guess either she was once at or they named themselves after the story. This is the coolest thing I saw was that the inventor of the pet rock who made, like, millions, he used those millions. His pet rock money went to opening a bar called the Carrie Nation Saloon.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

No.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Yeah. Isn't that fun?

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

What in the. That is the weirdest fact I've ever heard.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Because you'd be like, what the hell? The guy with the pet rock, like, how did he make that much money? One and two, what the hell did he do with that money? And he ended up making a saloon with the name of someone who would have hated it. It.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

He had a vision.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Yes. He really had a plan. He said, first, I gotta get people to, like, these goddamn serious. Put a googly eye on this rock.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Here's the thing. He doesn't gotta do anything. It. It's like he just channeled some divine. He's like, here's a rock. And everyone's like, I love it.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I mean, really? His parents probably like, oh, my kid. Like, all he wants to do is grow up and open a bar, but where is he gonna get the money? And he had. He was sitting on a pile of rocks and he went, I've got an idea. I'm gonna sell him.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Sell themselves.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Fun fact. There is a segment about Carrie Nation on drunk history, so.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Oh, that would be fun.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

It was. It's a quick little clip on. On YouTube. You can just go watch. It's like five minutes. But it was very interesting. And anyway, all that to say, we're at a hotel that was once a railroad and blah, blah, blah. Carrie Nation, that was one of her stops on her big, like, I love

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

that bar protest tour.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

And once she had passed away, prohibition took over. And Prohibition became obviously this really big thing, and the hotel needed a way to keep afloat. So one of the first ways that they had entertainment at the hotel to keep people coming in was. I. Only one source said this, but apparently they had a movie theater in there at some point, and they had an ice cream parlor in there at some point. But here's. Here's my favorite thing is that I've read enough of these histories about hotels. And during Prohibition era, at this point, a lot of them opened ice cream parlors. And they were actually speakeasies.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Wink, wink.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Yeah, wink, wink. So I'm kind of wondering, did the Holly Hotel actually open an ice cream parlor or they just put a big parlor in front of their bar? Yeah.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Did they put a big freezer in there and said, it's for ice cream?

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

You know, we really did start. And that's why we drank with booze and ice cream, not knowing that it was, like, actually such a key plot, I know, for in Prohibition era.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

And we really don't talk about that very Often, but yeah, no, but that

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

really, we, like if this was also a prohibition era podcast, like that would have secretly actually been the perfect fucking.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Oh my God, you're totally right.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

And we didn't even know it. Okay, so back to the hotel. The main tragedy that happened at this hotel was that it had suffered three separate fires, one of them in 1913. And it was enough that the hotel was so destroyed it had to be renovated. And it was kind of a blessing in disguise because during its renovations they were able to like add electricity and shit like that in there. But they also kind of changed some things design wise, where it didn't look as what we would consider beautiful today. But then in 1978, literally on the 65th anniversary of the first fire, all the way down. This is a quote. Exactly the same time to the hour. What same hour on the same day, 65 years apart. I think this one was faulty wiring.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Mm, no, that damn electricity.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Shouldn't have put the electricity in. But they. It ended up causing over half a million dollar in damages, so they had to re. Redo it. It's starting to feel like the Bob Burgers intro.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Oh my God. Yes, yes. Another banner. Yeah,

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

but another blessing in disguise. Because fun fact, this second time around that they had to renovate after a fire. They used the original 1891 blueprints and got it back to looking exactly how it did in 1881.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Maybe that's what needed to happen. It was like, hey, actually, let's just start over.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

The first time was like, we're gonna burn it down. So you put some electricity in there, then we're gonna burn down again. So you can get back to how it was looking. Yeah, yeah.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

We actually kind of didn't want you to go that far. We went a little too modern with the fixtures.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Exactly. And so during this renovation, or if like two years after, it ended up joining the National Register of Historic Places. And then the third fire, the third and final one was actually only four years ago, and the fire happened at a nearby building. It was like an arcade. I. I thought arcade, like games, but I think it was like, like the name of like, like a mall. Like a strip mall.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Like a plaza or something. Yeah.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

And it started in one building and then kind of swept through the whole series of shops and got to the hotel. And I guess, I guess the town knows that this hotel is kind of fire a lot. And so 18 different fire departments showed up to like put water out on this thing. They handle it quickly.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

They were like, not again.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Yeah, they're like hundreds of firefighter shows in the aftermath of this fire. The owners ended up trying to rebuild, but then the owner.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

So it did catch on fire again, like, so the actual hotel did.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Oh, and, like, got pretty messed up. Jesus. When the. And what's the. I read an interview somewhere that said, like, the owners only lived, like, seven minutes away, and by the time they got there, it was like, already be. Just destroyed.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

That is so weird.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

So they have this fire, they're gonna rebuild it, but then the people who own the arcade that originally caught on fire, they end up getting in some sort of, like, legal dispute with that guy. Because technically, now that it's 2022, property lines are different than they were in 1891. So if they're trying to keep the hotel as original as possible, it now is, like, crossing into, like, new property lines that. That the other guy technically owns. And so he was like, I don't want you on my property line. You can't rebuild in this area. And they're like, but then it wouldn't be authentic to the original, like.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

And he's like, I don't care.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Yeah, I would have been, like, on their side, but, like, can you just humor us? Like, we're trying to, like, respect it.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Also. He wants to, like, have his problem. I mean, I don't know. It's not his fucking problem.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Yeah, I don't. I don't. I don't know how it got so tricky so quickly, but it did. And I guess it just became. There was some rule. I. I didn't save this part, but in some statement that they put out, it was like, as. As long as we. If we keep our. If we. If we're honoring the original property lines, then, like, he has a reason to, like, keep our crews from building the. Something happened where it just wasn't going to happen. So with enough back and forth on this, they decided, like, it, like, we're just. We just have to close. And so as of 2024, the hotel has closed.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Oh, that's too bad.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Okay, it's. I don't know if it's sold since, but it's been on sale at least as of 2024 for 900, 000. And the bones are still good of it, but the. It definitely needs, like, a facelift after the fire, but that's all the history. So. As for ghosts.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Oof. I bet there's plenty.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Yeah. So. Well, I don't even know if anyone died in the fires. I didn't see anything.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Oh, yeah. I guess Fires alone don't. But it sounds like somebody's trying to burn this place down.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Maybe Carrie, maybe from the beyond. She's like, I'm not through with you

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

with a name like Carrie.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I'm just saying, carry a nation, carry the universe. She basically. I mean, they must have known things were going on paranormally here a long time ago, because back in the 80s, they had investigators coming out. Oh, wow.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

In the 80s? Yeah. You don't hear that often.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

So in 1989, there was one guy who was pretty popular named Norman Gauthier,

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

and you should do an episode on that guy. I feel like he'd be funny to talk. He's funny, but I feel like he's like, there's something about this guy. He reminds me of a chip coffee, you know? Yeah, I would actually want to know about this guy.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I'd stick to your original phrasing and say he's funny. Because I'm like, what were you doing in the 80s being a paranormal?

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Seriously, like, you gotta give me the deets on this guy.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Something's happening. But he went in and he was pretty, like, renown or. I don't know about renown, but people knew his name. And he confirmed that this place was, quote, loaded with spirits. So that was kind of all the hotel needed to be like, all right, we're a haunted hotel.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

We've had First Leaf wines as a sponsor for so long. Like, they've been just a part of our journey for years.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I mean, run it back to, like, episode, like 20 or something. I think they were one of our very first ads we ever, ever did.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

I think so.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

And they're back at it, asking us to make sure you guys know just how incredible they are. From, like, brand new wine tasters to wine snobs. First Leaf is gonna be very yummy for you. I tell you that.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Katie, who does a lot of, like, behind the scenes for the podcast and for parapods, and she was saying that her brother's a wine snob. And when she, like, he would. Literally was a winery apprentice and gave him one of the bottles, and he was raving about the wine, how good it was. So I feel like that's probably the top, like, personal endorsement you could get.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

They deliver premium wine straight to your door every month.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Oh, and a quiz. There's a quiz.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

There's the quiz. And we. That was the. I think the first quiz you ever probably took for. And that's what.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

I took it it 16 times.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

So whether you're like, you know, just making pasta or Like a charcuterie board or whatever it is, or housewarming gift. Gift. If you know, whatever the reason is, you know, a first leaf is there for you and it will just get sent to your house. It's incredible.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

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[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

That's T R Y F I R S T l e a f.com drink try firstleaf.com drink so the first ghost that people know about pretty well is Mr. Hearst, the guy who first originally opened the building when it was Hearst Hotel it was named after.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Is this like the Hearst family? Like, publishing family? H I R S T. Oh, never mind. Never mind.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Okay, so people see his apparition a lot. They see a man quote in a 19th century frock coat and top hat.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Oh, hot.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I was gonna say it's been like a hundred years.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Take it off. Come on. Go to JCPenney.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Like, it's okay to just wear some basketball shorts. You're dead.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Seriously. Like. And you know, people leave stuff in the. In the hotel room.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Just grab something, just anything that's such a good, comfy point. You're in a house full of clothing.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Just take it. Correct.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

And they would probably love it if you took it because then they get a good story out of it.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Oh, the last and found. Just go through the last one found. They don't need that anymore.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

If you. Okay, you're dead now. So, like, what's your official. Well, first of all, do you change your outfit regularly or are you just gonna have one? If you're told you only get one outfit, are you going for, like, style? Are you going for comfort because you're there for eternity?

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

How about both? Okay, I'm going for. I want to look cute, but never regret what I'm wearing forever. Which is very hard to find. But I think I would have to spend a lot of time trying to put that together.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I think.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Thank you for asking. But I would have to know if I. If I sweat, because if I sweat, I'm gonna have a lot of outfit changes. You know, I would need to know. Afterlife.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

What's the. Is. Is the afterlife a perfect 7170? Sure.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Perspiration ratio. I need all these things before I commit to any sort of clothing.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I agree. And. But if I'm stuck wearing one thing forever and, like, I am sensory aware of what I'm wearing at any point,

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Like, I need to know that going into this and I trouble, trouble.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

People would just be like, oh my God, we went to M. Schultz's house and there was a homeless person haunting. And it would just be me, like, in like the most raggedy comfortable things possible. Like, I would like, I feel like, like the Kardashians are probably going to die and be wearing like they're like crazy skin type, like things that aren't

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

comfy silk lingerie that they sleep in or whatever. Yeah. And it's like, oh, couldn't be me.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I'm wearing my basketball shorts that have three holes in them. I'm wearing my sweatshirt that has four. Like, I'm gonna be real.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

So basically our generation of ghosts is going to be so much scarier because we're all just going to be wearing like cloaky, baggy, like kind of like sorcerer style dark layers.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Like the clothes that zombies wear. Where it just looks run down. Yeah.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Where it's like, how many layers did you put on? And also I feel like part of it is like I just got up to pee and I accidentally died on the way, you know?

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Yeah.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Like, I was watch. I was binging my show and I really had to pee and then I died and that's how I got here. And also, like, usually that. That whole vibe goes with sort of like a don't perceive me element. And I feel like that also hand in hand with the ghost thing is going to be troubling for future investigators.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I think that's also like it like make. Because if I know when I go, I want to be found by investigators. Like I'm. Let this statement be known. If at some point I'll be dead. And at some point I would like to think one paranormal investigator is going to hear this. Yeah.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Contact me.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I'm telling you right now, I will. I want to be found. I will actively. If. If ghosts are real, I'm. And you're in my house or you're

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

somewhere where I'll be like, you're not hiding.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I'm not hiding. And I will actively. You don't have to say, like, we would love to. For you to come out and tell us your story that I'm scre screaming my story. And if you can't hear it, it's because the machines are broken.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Em's been following you around for days knowing you're on the way.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I'm literally telling you if you felt. If you felt a tingle on the way, it's because I was already there.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

You're like, excuse Me.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

But you wanna. I would argue that wearing my, like, ratty clothes would be better because, like, you're definitely not gonna like, confuse me with someone else in the crowd.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

You know what I mean? Like, except Christine, who also dies someday and looks exactly like that.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

But yeah, like at the haunted house. Like the haunted houses where like, they think they like. Like a child is lost in there, but then they realized it was like a random. Like it was a dead chip. Sure. It's like, well, maybe if he was like, barefoot and wearing like something that was clearly 20 years older than. Than his timeline.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It would have a little more. More obvious. Yeah. Yes, I get you. I get you.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Yeah, I think that's where I'd be. But then if. If you die in the outfit that you just. If you're a ghost in the outfit that you died in, then I'm probably just only going to be in my underwear. And that's even more embarrassing.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Oh, well, it is, but it isn't because also it's threatening.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I don't know what happened.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

It's all about how you look at it.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

It's all about confidence. As long as I'm walking around bold

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

without pants boldly, that's. It's all about the attitude.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Yeah. Pants are like 80% of the time. Not on me. So I really hope you get to choose the outfit because.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Oh, yeah, I. I've already resigned myself to being like half nude when I die because I don't. I don't usually wear pants yet now.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

No. You know what I find interesting, though? And one of the reasons I don't believe that you. You. I think you get to choose what you wear is that so many people have probably died naked. You. Not a single naked ghost have I heard of. They know better than to like, like, approach you like that.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

That is so true. And I feel like maybe part of that is that you. They say, you know, you kind of revert back to an image of yourself at like, the peak or like the. The most glowing version of you. And I would presume most people don't. Maybe some. Which, like, good for. I aspire to be that way, but I don't feel my most like, golden and holy when I'm in the nude. You know, maybe my golden era would be more of like something cute I wore on stage, you know, or something like maybe that maybe you just get reverted back to like, oh, your youthful self, but not necessarily like, oh, oops, you're naked forever.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I mean, if we're going off of like, Art. Like what we would wear on stage when you felt your best. I know you're coming in haunting us with that fucking black leather jacket. I fucking know it.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Thank you. And those black or the blazer? The blazer.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

And the black jeans with the holes in the knees. Christine, you look so killer in those. Oh.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

As a ghost.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

People will be like, I don't know if she was dead or alive, but she was fucking slamming. You know what I mean?

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

But she really. She's probably got a Leo Moon because she is really in our faces and will not leave us alone. Holy shit.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Well, anyway, this guy's got a fucking frock coat and a top hat. I can't imagine anything more uncomfortable.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Maybe that was his evening wear. Maybe. We don't know, you know, it's so embarrassing.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Maybe that was his version of looking slamming and we're just dragging on.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Maybe that's. Maybe he was like, that is my choice. And now I'm humiliated and I'm sorry.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Oh, I feel bad now. Well, when I get there on the other side, I'll make a stop in Michigan and go, I didn't mean it. I'm sorry. So anyway, he's also accompanied by the smell of cigar smoke. And he has quite a deep baritone voice that people can hear laughing. And I like to think it's because of the comedy club.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

I bet it's hilarious.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I bet he is. Like, I don't know what these kids are saying, but they look like they're having a good time.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Gives me a chuckle.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

People also see a different man, or maybe the same man. Unclear. A man. And the halls vanishing in front of them while helping turn off lights and closing doors.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Oh. So he's like, let me help, but get out of the. But don't look at me. Sorry. He's like, don't look at me, but just do my work.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

You would think, like, you'd vanish before you turn off the lights. But he turns off the lights after, like, so. So you see a man fade away, and then all of a sudden the lights cut out and you're like, oh, yeah.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

He's like, oh, don't. Yeah, I'm the invisible janitor. Yeah. I don't like that.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

People also see a different ghost. This one, her name is Nora Kane. What a powerful name.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Love that.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Nora Kane, I think, died and now comes back with a boa on her neck or something. Like something.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Sure.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Noah Kane's so powerful. She was. She's a former hostess of the hotel. And people see her whole apparition, like, walking around and her. Her full body. But sometimes people only see her head floating by itself.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Is the boa. Oh, wait, the bow is something you made up. Sorry, I forgot. I. I forgot the bow was like you said. I was like, holy, the boa.

[Narrator/Ad Voice]

Okay.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

It's just gonna fall right on the ground.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

It's just her head. That's disturbing.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Yeah.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Strange.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Even staff have said, like, we were closing up, and then we thought we saw a woman in the other room, but when we looked, it was like there were only her head.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

That's weird.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

People often see Nora standing in the old main entrance, which would make sense for her, but it is now the bar area. People also say that she will photobomb your pictures if you're there for a venue.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

I love that.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Like a function. She'll just.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Her head.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I don't know, actually, because that would

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

make it more convenient. And if you up.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

If you can only show your head, can you not also sometimes just, like, only show, like, an ankle and, like, be really scandalous. Yeah. Like, can you just, like, flash? And only one party shows up. I don't know what the possibilities are. She's also heard singing, or if you're by a piano. People have heard her ask them to play piano for her. Oh, apparently the piano will also play by itself, sometimes very easy.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

It's probably Bruce, the guy always seeking a piano out.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

He's still trying to figure out that Chattanooga song or something.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Please. He's still trying to teach it to me.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

So most commonly, people know her by her lavender perfume. And like I said, the other guy, Mr. Hearst, people know him by his cigar smell. I think the smells are much more confident, more common than seeing them. But with Nora Kane, people have also seen her specifically in the bathroom. But it's always, like, after you've already gone to the bathroom and you go to the sink to wash your hands, and then she just has, like, appears next to you, and she's whispering something you can't hear.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Well, I hate that. And also, it reminds me of the photobombing where she just, like, appears in a reflection of you or, like, in. In behind you or. Oh, yeah.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Yeah.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Thank you.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

There's. How do I put it? I don't know if it's Noran or if it's a different woman, but one of the staff members have said that although she seems really nice and friendly, eventually she will, quote, change her demeanor, and it's something a lot more like a monster.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

What could that mean?

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I just hate it.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

What could that mean?

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

And then, like, no more information happens about that. It's just.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Yeah, that's it.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

So you just get to guess and maybe go there and hope.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Like, she just gets, like, a little bitchy because everyone's, like, crowding in. Or is it like she literally turns demonic? You know what I mean? Like, there's, like, a wide range of what that could mean.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

And there's something so eerie about anyone whispering and you can't hear what they're saying, but they're looking at you and.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

There's also the ghost of a little girl who ranges widely between 9 and 15. People just can't tell their age.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

People are bad at guessing ages, including me.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I'm bad at guessing all height, weight, age. I can't. I can't guess any of it. If someone was like, what do they look like? I would just describe completely wrong person.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Picture a person. And that's usually what they look like. Yeah.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

And also because I'm so gender inclusive, I'm like, I couldn't even. Maybe a little mask, maybe a little femme. I don't.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Whatever they were feeling, they weren't wearing a pin with their pronouns. So it's not for me to say.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Yeah, you're better off with just a solid shadow. Like Peter Pan shadow is. That's where we start and that's where we end.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

I get it. I can see it.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

There's a little girl here between 9 and 15. Although some have said it's two separate little girls, which would make more sense to me. But she's said to either be Nora's daughter, or apparently there was a story that a kid got trampled by one of the horses one time.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Oh, no.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I don't know how true that is, but that's at least a rumor. And people think. Think that that's where the spirit of the girl might be coming from. But she's heard running up and down the halls. She's heard giggling. She moves objects around the hotel. She showed up one time during a seance. Horrifying. And most of the time, she haunts the kitchen. Actually, one chef. It was very funny in an interview who's like, it's actually really annoying during, like, rush time. And, like, I'm busy, and there's a kid giggling in my ear.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Oh, my God. And sharp knives everywhere.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Yeah. Yes. Well, speaking of sharp knives, her favorite thing to do is play with the knives.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

I knew it.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Especially there's this one particular meat cleaver.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Oh, God.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

That, like, everyone knows is, like, her favorite toy, which, like, of course, in all of the reenactments, there's, like, a little girl at the end of a hall holding a meat cleaver.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Yeah, that's her, but with her favorite toy.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

More realistically, I think she's just, like, maybe playing kitchen or something, because, like, the knives will just get moved all over the place. The teapots will get moved all over the place.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Yeah, it's like. It's like a ghost in a house, like, moving stuff around. Yeah, yeah.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

But, like, the. The. The one chef that was already kind of complaining about her was like, I'll leave it right here at my station. And then all of a sudden, it's like, over here, and I know nobody has touched it. Like, they know better than the meat

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

cleaver, of all things.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

This is probably going to be your favorite of all. All of the ghosts is. Her name's Leona.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Wait, really?

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

And she's a little rat terrier.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

A dog named Leona. This is getting crazy.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Kind of better than either human Leona, I would argue, like, now you've got the puppy element. Oh, my God. You know?

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

All right, well, you know, I gotta stand by my girl. I'm not gonna do that. I'm just on air.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I'm just trying to cause a fight.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

So. So seeds of discord.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I'm just saying. But the rat terrier, I can really. I don't think Leona would let me do this to her face. You know what I'm saying?

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

I don't know that a rat terrier would let you do that to its face. I'm just gonna put that out there right now.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I think I have a better chance with the rat terrier. Let's put it that way.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

My Leona would be much more likely to bite. So that's. That part is true. And I do speak from experience.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

If you're wondering, has she gone through a biting phase yet?

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

She has not, actually. Knock on wood. She bit me one time. I bit my mom one time when I was little. And I remember, like, everyone does it once. One day, my. My child's gonna bite my shoulder, and I'm gon. Then it happened, and then it never. Thank God. Knock on wood.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

But I think I also bit one time, and then I was like, I actually didn't really enjoy that.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Yeah. And my mom, for sure didn't. She had a terrible time. And then she actually bit me back one time. Anyway.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Anyway, this is the third cutest Leona out there, the rat terrier.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Wow, Thanks a lot. So nice.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I'm just Gonna. I'm just gonna back away slowly. But people hear paws running around, which, like, if you're gonna have a ghost in the hotel, make it a very sweet.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

It has to be a little clattering dog for sure.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

A little pitter pat.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

The most soothing sound, like footsteps. No, I.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Can you imagine having a ghost dog where. Because my dog is. And I know Gio's one of them too. He's one of those dogs that when he lies down, it's almost a guarantee every time you get one of those, like so over it groans where it's

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

like, yeah, it's like, give me a break.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Yeah, imagine having a ghost that just sounds over it in your room with you. And you're like, is that a man or a dog?

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Yeah. Is that a rat terrier or what?

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

But I think all. I mean, if it's a ratchet, it probably sounds cuter than when my dog

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

does it, but you're right.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

But they hear paws running around, apparently. You'll see paw prints on dusty parts of the floor.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Sweet.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

People will hear barking. They'll feel a dog brushing up against them, or like a tag, a tail wagging against them. And then other than that, objects. There's a quote. Objects will levitate inside, across tables. People also hear faint, old faint fashion music playing. They'll get their clothes tugged on. Apparitions will show up at the top of the stairs looking back at you. Silverware will rearrange itself. Chairs will rearrange themselves. Doors will slam. People have gotten many EVPs here. Servers have ordered at tables, have gotten orders from tables, and when they look back, no one's actually sitting there. So they got a fake ass order. That's crazy.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

I love that.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

And I wonder if they're ordering food that's like, not on the regular menu.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

And you're like, we gotta compare those orders. Is it the same order every time? Is it like, yeah, like crab Waldorf? What the.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Or is it like gelatin shrimp mold?

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Or is it like sprite? Yeah, I want to know.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I wonder if one of them is like, I've been hearing this. All the new rage about this Dr. Pepper. I gotta try that. Or like Dr. Pepper and the waitress is like, I'll see what we can do. But anyway, so apparently they put orders in and then realize no one's sitting there. There have been other times where they take an order at like a table of three and then only two people order and they realize the third person. See that?

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

That's so creepy. That's the. So creepy. And Then they were like, where's your friend? And it's like, what the. Yeah.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

No, literally horrifying. And imagine if it were us and we just found out someone was sitting at our table, clear as day.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

No, who is it? What do they look like? What kind of crab did they order?

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

And they'd be like, well, think of a. A boy, girl with a range of height and weight and age.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Think of a shadow of a person.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Think of Peter Pan shadow, and just go from there. The final thing I'm gonna say is that on Reddit, somebody wrote in that had investigated the place a few years ago, and this is a quote from them. This is from a user called Jenny Lava. And they said while investigating the area or the attic area, I was slapped so hard across the back of my head that it pushed me into my friend.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

What the. That's not cool.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Fully, like, slapped, it seems like.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Holy crap. Who would do that? Which one of these ghosts?

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

That little girl with a meat cleaver, I bet. I don't know.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Oh, my God. She hit you with a meat cleaver. And you just think you got slapped in the head.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

It was a cute little puppy, maybe. So then they go on to say, we heard growling coming from a far back corner where no one wanted to go on the main dining floor. We looked through some sort of night vision, heat vision goggles, and I saw someone dining at a small table. But when I took the goggles off and looked at the table, nobody was there. And I was the only person in the room. Room. And once we got back to the basement, we decided to stand in a circle with our lights off to see if one last thing could happen. So we turned the flashlights back on a few moments later, and a twine bracelet with a washer appeared in the middle of the circle. What? It's like a random bracelet appeared, but,

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

like a twine with a washer on it. Yeah, so, like, somebody's hand crafted in the, like, dark basement corner of all they could find on the dusty floor. Like, that's not cool.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Horrible. Yeah. Agreed.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Like, I made you this. What the hell?

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Like, a parting gift.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Oh, it's a charm. Like, no, that's trash. Put that down. Don't touch that.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Well, the Holly Hotel. If you want to learn more, the. It is featured on the first.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

You know, I would wear that home. I'm such a dumb. I'm such a dumb bitch. I'm like, I would wear that right home. And you'd be like, like. And I'd be like, why are we cursed. And you'd be like, you took the gift from the small child and put it on your wrist and it's like literally on fire.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

And you're like, I don't get it 100%.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

I'd be like, it was a gift from a small child. So I just say that to say, take everything I say with a grain of salt, people.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

If you want to learn more, you can watch about the Holly Hotel on Most Terrifying Places in America and its first season. There was also. You could watch the Drunk History of Carry a Nation, and that was season three. And then in 2022, there was a. They call it a Hallmark movie. It's actually somehow worse. And it was not by Hallmark, but people call it a Hallmark maybe because of the. The aesthetic it brings. And it was called Christmas at the Holly Hotel. And I can't tell if the movie was inspired by the Holly Hotel or, or. And, or some of the articles I read said that it was actually filmed at the Holly Hotel, so.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Oh, cool.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Could be both. Could be neither there. But the plot. I'll just read you the. The synopsis.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Yeah.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Kathy, a fiercely independent New York City based food critic who was asked by her parents to return home for the. To return home to Michigan for the holidays to help manage a massive Christmas dinner at the historic Holly Hotel. While. While navigating her career aspirations, she reconnects with her family and falls in love with a local police officer named Matthew. And I'm sure, God, Matthew goes, please stay. I'll do anything.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Oh, please. You're from the big city.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

For beach to Sandy, here are the first five reviews.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Yes.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

So tedious, so boring, so bad. But like a train wreck. I couldn't stop watching the worst acting I've ever seen in a movie. Terrible.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Oh, no. Oh, no. Oh, no.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

And that's the Holy hotel.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

See that? Well, yeah, we've read reviews of Lifetime movies and Hallmark and boy, you gotta. And they. They get rough, you know? Yeah. Wow. Well done. I just. I love a haunted hotel. You know that about me. I'm sad it's closed. I hope somebody can kind of get it cooking again.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Yeah. If someone's got a. Just a cool, casual million dollars and they're willing to, like, litigation with this, like, other business, let me know.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

And want to, like, run an entire hotel operation. Yeah.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

That may or may not have been the set of a Hallmark, not Hallmark knockoff Hallmark movie.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Yeah. With. With probably 1.5 out of 5 stars nobody's seen TV on online. Wow. Good job. I'm gonna Pee.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Yeah.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Then let's do a yappy hour.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

We'll do a quick yappy hour because the we talked so much in the beginning.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Okay, we'll do a quick yappy hour. Okay.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

You look like Cupid's first aid. You know what I'm saying? Like. Oh, not first aid, like a, like an aid. Like firsthand.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Oh, the Red Cross, boss.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Okay, like an aid, like a person. Jesus.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Doctors Without Borders, I guess. Okay, here. What? I, I'm, I'm. Listen. I'm doing something similar to all these beautiful humanitarian missions, which is that I am bringing you some really good news, which is that Zenny makes wonderfully affordable stylish statement piece glasses. Or if you're like blaze and you just want rectangle ones, fine, you can do that too. But I got the heart hearts. I got the ones that turn pink. And also they block people, I think, from stealing my identity.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

It said your identity still has not been stolen. Thanks.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Still safe behind these beautiful heart shaped glasses.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

You know, whether it's prescription glasses, sunglasses, blue light lenses, apparently. Identity.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Yep, yep.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Yeah, you could get anything going on over there. And they have over 150,000 five star reviews, so. Beaches. Andy actually can't. It's ironic that you have to talk about them on your show where you just get bad reviews. They look stunning. If you ever want to know what I meant by Cupid's aid, hopefully someone knows. You just look like the right hand man to someone who's in charge of love. If your glasses are overdue for a refresh, now is the time. Go to zenni.com podcast and use code podcast15 for 15% off your first order. The styles sell out, so don't sit on it.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

That's Z-E-N-N-I.com podcast promo code podcast15. Okay, welcome back. We just went to a deep dive on my Reiki stuff, so if you're interested, you go join the. Join the yappy hour. Okay, let me find the document because this one, it's doozy. Oh boy, it's a doozy. So this is one of those stories that I had always wanted to cover and never. It was always bookmarked and for some reason it never happened. And now here we are. It is a story of Gerard Schaefer, a serial killer. So, okay, for those who've been complaining, I don't cover enough serial killers. Here you go. Hope you're happy. 1972, of course, the era killers.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Yeah, Peak era.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Yeah, Peak era of serial killers. 1972. Susan Place was earning her High school diploma at an adult education center in Florida. She had moved in with her family to a suburb of Fort Lauderdale from her childhood home in Michigan and was struggling to fit in at her new high school. A complication during birth had caused something called hemiplegia, which is like a paralysis that affects one side of your body. And she was diagnosed with epilepsy. And so being in high school, moving to a new high school is already tough. And then you've got, you know, differences that are more obvious and you know, the epilepsy and she's feeling not quite right. She's not fitting in. Back in Michigan, she did have a good group of friends. She'd been a friendly and fun loving teenager. She sang, she played piano and guitar. But in this new town in Florida, she was really struggling to make friends. She got, of course, bullying from, from her classmates for her disabilities. And then not only was school tough, but outside of school things were not much better. She was fired from her job because she disclosed that she had epilepsy on her job application and the grocery stores insurance company considered her a liability and so they fired her. Okay, just to give you an idea of like how tough things were, her sister Kristen recalls her calling one day crying and just asking, why do I have to be an epileptic? Because it was just, she felt like that was making her life so much harder.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

It's so sad.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

And remember, this was pre ada, so like pre Americans with Disabilities act, which exists to protect folks with disabilities from discrimination. And you know, back then especially it was like, well, sorry, the insurance company doesn't want you around, so bye, you know.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Yeah, right.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

So looking for any sort of solution to the isolation and discrimination that she at least faced at school, Susan decided to finish her diploma at the adult education center. And her parents were supportive of that choice. They understood. And it was there at the adult education center that she met 16 year old Georgia Jessup, who sometimes went by the nickname Crystal. Now Georgia's parents were divorced, but they were co parenting and remained relatively friendly. But Georgia was, was like a wanderer. She wanted to travel, she wanted adventure. She ran away a few times, but she always came back because she actually loved her parents. So it wasn't so much that she was running away from like a life she didn't like. She just loved to adventure. Okay, so the two of them actually had this in common, this wanderlust, especially after Susan had moved to Florida and felt so out of place. They both were like, we want to get out of here, you know, and you introduce two teenagers with wanderlust, and here you go. There's the beginning.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Yeah. And then every, like, coming of age movie happens.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Totally. Every plot. Yep. So Georgia, she loved this sort of, like, lifestyle of running away and being kind of flighty, but she always came back. She actually even sometimes, like, called her parents on the way home to be like. Like, oh, sorry, I ran away for a few days, but I'm. I'm heading home. Didn't want to worry you. Like, she's just off and about. Okay, good for her.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

You know what? So far, good for her.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

I know, I know. And so, you know, I think her parents are probably having just heart attack after heart attack, but she's. She's exploring. She's a free bird. Okay. So they had this in common. They even wandered all the way to New York one time. And remember, they're in Florida. Okay. So, yeah, yeah, they. They. They wander. And they called their parents to say, don't worry, we're on our way home. And it was also at this same adult education center that the two of them, Georgia and Susan, met a man named Jerry Shepard. Jerry was 26, so he was far older than the girls who were teenagers. He told them he was from Colorado, where he said he spent his days out in the wilderness as an experienced outdoorsman. And he said, you know, I love to travel. Would you girls ever want to travel with me?

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

And also, like, why are you ruining our best friend time? Like, we're. We're off gallivanting. What do you mean?

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Because a third unfortunately collab here. You know, unfortunately, I wish that were the case, but they were very drawn by his allure of having transportation, of having money, of having access to travel and adventure. And I think they just couldn't resist. He invited the girls to travel with them. And on one occasion, Georgia and Susan tried to run away together to Colorado, but the police caught them hitchhiking and brought them home to their parents. And not long after that, Georgia left home with Jerry in Jerry's car, and they stopped at Susan's house to pick her up. Now, Georgia was running away, but Susan was not. She was actually almost 18 at this point. And so she had told her parents that she was planning to travel to Colorado. So in some way, she had already told them that this was what she was going to be doing. It wasn't, like, a solid plan. Her family didn't know much, but she didn't want to just disappear. Like she told her parents, I'm gonna be in Colorado for a while at some Point. So the last time she'd run away and come home, she promised never to run away again because her mother had gotten so upset. So she was very adamant that her mom knew where she was. This time on September 27, 1972, Susan's mother, Lucille, found Susan cleaning her bedroom. And in the room with her were Georgia, her best friend, and Jerry Shepard, the 26 year old creep.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Okay.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Lucille was like, oh, boy, Susan's packing. Are you going?

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Here she goes again.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Yep, there she goes. And she says, yes, I am leaving town tonight. That's the plan.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Damn, that's a lot of. There's no turnaround time for these parents.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Not at all. And the mom is really like, like, please don't do that. Please don't do this. You know, I mean, it's just like very sudden. But her daughter cried and told her mom that she was tired of Fort Lauderdale. She didn't feel at home there. She wanted time with her friends. And her mom was just very worried, argued with her. But Susan was just not gonna be swayed. She was not gonna budge. And finally, you know, she just couldn't really do much except accept the situation. She later recalled that Jerry, for his part, Art, seemed extremely smug and calm during the whole situation. And he actually inserted himself during their. Of course, of course he did. And he said, don't worry, we're only planning to go to the beach to play guitar tonight. What a creepo.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

And also sounds like not at all what she's saying. Colorado.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Exactly. She literally said, I'm going to Colorado. And he's like, I don't even worry about it. Like, ugh.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Yeah. I feel like that mom immediately got creepy vibes from that.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Oh, big time, big time. She knew. And by the way, like, you're 100% right. And she is not gonna go away yet. Because she knew. She knew. Yeah.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

By the way, if anyone hears I, that's me shifting in the chair. I just heard it through my ear headphones and I went. I'm sure that microphone picked up a sound that was questionable.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

What did it sound like? I missed it.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I think it sounded like a little toot, but it was like a little.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Oh, sure, sure.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

No, no.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Well, I'm kidding, I'm kidding, I'm kidding.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I took the risk. By evening. Been saying anything.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

I'll be honest. I didn't hear it, so.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Okay, cool.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

I'll just have Jack amplify that in. In post.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

So here, here. This is the sound. This is the sound. You ready? Did you hear that? No. Okay, whatever. I Was. I'm trying to. It's a zipper. Whatever. It doesn't matter. Whatever, everybody.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

It's funnier the more you explain it.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I know. I, like. I'm, like, trying to breathe, actually. I'm like.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

I'm like, my stupid couch. It probably sounds like I'm farting all day long on this couch. Okay. I've never even thought to say anything. O. Okay. So of course, this is, like, completely smug. And you are 100, right? That she got bad vibes. Because the next line in my notes is that she wrote down his license plate. Good. Because she was like, something is up with this dude. But she knew she couldn't stop her daughter. Like, it sucks, right? Like, her daughter's about to be 18. Legally, she can leave. And what are you gonna do? I mean, write down the license plate. And so that's what she does. Which, like, good for her. I'm so glad she did that. Anyway, they left. The three of them left. And Lucille, of course, felt this pit in her stomach. She wrote down Jerry's license plate. And wouldn't you know it, Susan did not come home that night. And four days passed with no word. Not a phone call, nothing. Lucille knew something was wrong because Susan had promised to be in contact if she did go to Colorado and that she would tell her mom where she was and that she was safe. Not only that, but Susan hadn't actually packed any clothes or other belongings. Like, they were like, oh, we're just gonna go to the beach to play guitar tonight, and then we'll do the big move. But she went to the beach to play guitar and then never came home. And.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Right.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Didn't bring any bags or suitcases or anything like that.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Do we think this guy was trying to immediately, like, shift the story so that way, if. If slash. When the kids went missing, the mom would go to a beach, and it would save time or, like, oh, like, almost like, b. Try to tell her a different location, preemptively divert her to a different place so he had more time to, like, hide bodies or whatever.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Could be. Could be.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I don't know.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

We shall see. We shall see. Okay, so Susan had promised to be in contact, but she wasn't. And not only did she not pack any of her clothes or belongings, she didn't pack her epilepsy medication and, like, right. You don't go without that. Lucille called some of Susan's few friends and connected with George's mom, who she actually didn't know. She didn't know George's mom at this point. And that's when they realized that both girls were together and gone and had been not heard from. Lucille learned that Georgia had left a note for her parents because remember, she was running away like she was intentionally not telling her parents. And so she ran away on September 27 and left a note. Now certain something was wrong because neither girl had contacted home. Lucille shared the license plate information with George's mother. And both women reported their daughters missing to the police. They provided the license plate number, but wouldn't you just know it? The police missed the detail that the number was registered in a different county. And so they were not able to pull up his car, buy the license plate and the investigation died.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

That's tough. That's.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

I really thought make you crazy.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I really thought at the end of like she was gonna save the day and like obviously she's done the right thing and so don't worry, okay?

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

She comes back. She comes back. Unfortunately, neither Susan nor Georgia would be seen again. Now I want to time travel backwards a bit here. Three months earlier, in July of 1972 teenagers Nancy Ellen Trotter and Paula Sue Wells, who went by her middle name sue, were hitchhiking in Florida. And they were both from very far from their small town homes. 18 year old Nancy was from Texas. 17 year old sue came from Michigan. They had first met while they were both hitchhiking to Chicago and became fast friends. They decided to divert their plans southeast to go be in the sunshine. And after a day at Jensen beach, they were hitchhiking to their temporary home in Stewart when a deputy sheriff pulled over beside them and informed them that hitchhiking was illegal. There, there now. Nancy and sue were. Neither of them were aware of this supposed law, but he said, don't worry, you're not in trouble, I'll drive you home. They accepted the ride and on the way he even offered them to give. He even offered to give them a ride back to the beach in the morning. How nice of him, huh? The sheriff's deputy was none other than 26 year old Gerard Jerry Schaer. He seemed very straight laced, professional. Nancy and sue were also very adventurous girls and they had a sense of curiosity about where they were going. They thought, well, okay, we get a ride. But we also befriend a local who is like trustworthy. Right? He's a police officer. Yeah.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

So. And you think you've got. You would think that'd be helpful.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Totally, totally. Especially if you're not up to anything dangerous. You just want someone trusted so that you can like look to look to. And of course he knows that. So hitchhiking was, of course, as we know, much more commonplace in the 60s and 70s. These two girls were also very well traveled and confident. They were very like self reliant and they relied on each other as well, like a safety in numbers feeling, you know, So I think that kind of put them at a sense of ease and also.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Yeah, sorry, keep going.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

But I was just gonna say, and accepting a ride from a police officer, like, would have seemed safe to most people at any time. Yeah, exactly. Like whether or not you're a hitchhiker, whether or not you're, you're like, oh, here come the cops. Oh, at least he's just gonna give me a ride home. And he's not, he's, he's worried about me, sort of like as someone who would protect me. A father figure, like.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Yes.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

His duty, like his. He's here to protect you. Yeah. And so there's just something so sick about that. But yeah. So the idea that two girls get a ride home from an officer who's like, hey, you're not supposed to hitchhike here. I know, it's common. You're not in trouble. Like, of course they took a ride. I mean, these girls have hitchhiked all over the country with strangers. Like this is going to be the safest option, of course.

[Narrator/Ad Voice]

Ah.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

So felt like a no brainer. And so they agreed to meet Gerard the next morning so he could show them around, take them to, you know, the local hotspot spots. Gerard Schaer, let me tell you a little bit about this. He was born in Wisconsin in 19. What is with Wisconsin though?

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Nothing to do. I don't know.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

I don't know. I think it's got to be something in the, in the water? Yeah, something in the water.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Wisconsin water. Yeah. All the cheese curds over there.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Yeah. All that beer they're drinking. I don't know what's in that. Okay, so from Wisconsin, he was born in 1946. Doris was a stay at home. His mom, Doris was a stay at home mother. And his dad, Gerard senior, was a traveling salesman whose work kind of moved them around the country throughout his childhood. They moved from Wisconsin to Tennessee, then to Atlanta and in the night. And in 1960, the Shaffers relocated a final time to Fort Lauderdale, Florida. And that's where Gerard would attend high school. He later in life described his childhood as unstable and unhappy. His father had alcoholism and he said his father was very unaffectionate and detached. He did have one bond with his father, which as cliche as this is, it was hunting and fishing. And so that's kind of where feels

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

like Wisconsin feels like, right? Men bonding in Wisconsin.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Yep. And they, you know, that's where he proved himself. Right. And his dad gave him a compliment at one point that he was even a beautiful shop thought, oh, so that's about as far as the affection went. When Gerard senior was away, Gerard, his son, went out on his own. And people appreciated that he had a natural confidence alone in the outdoors, but they didn't quite know what he was doing out there. A neighbor and friend named Gary did notice, however, that when Gerard was out enjoying nature, he seemed to enjoy killing animals for no reason. One of his favorite pastimes was just killing animals that he wouldn't eat. Like songbirds, land crab. Like he just liked it.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Just like ding, ding, ding, you know,

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

I know and I love that. It's like his friend said this and I'm like, you've got an interesting friendship.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

His friend said he loved to casually murder living creatures.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Right. It's like, oh, okay, charming. So Gerard senior described his son, as I said, as a beautiful shot. And that's about as far as their affection went. Gary thought of Gerard as a collector who was very proud to own and use his guns. And so like already kind of starting off on a very violent in a very like, you know, their only connection is hunting. And that's it.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Yeah.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

As a 14 year old in Florida, Gerard got along with other boys his age. They would fish, drink, date, brag about their supposed like dates or whatever. He played high school sports and his classmates had mixed opinions about him. So like some people were like, he's fine and, and most people were like he was a creep. Like, yeah, yeah, okay, so that does

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

make me feel better that at least people in his childhood are like, can confirm because the other guy, the other guy who's like, oh yeah, he just killed a bunch of animals for fun. Haha. And it's like, I'm like, I didn't see this coming.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Is anybody looking and seeing and saying something? You know, aren't we supposed to see and say something?

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Yes, exactly.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

So okay, yeah.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Glad some people noticed.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Barbara did. And Barbara later described him as just that, a creepy creep. She said he was never the kind of person I wanted to know. I can't remember him being friends. Babs, she's honest. She's got to spill the tea.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

She had the. Her perception was on, oh.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

She's like, I've got the gift of discernment. Don't around. I'll get the yearbook out right now and we can get through it, okay? Yeah. He was never the kind of person I wanted to know. I can't remember him being friends with any of the guys. He was always on the outside looking in. As a matter of fact, the only thing I really remember is that I always had to tuck my skirt under my legs because he would practically stand on his head to look up a girl's skirt.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Jesus Christ. So if he was like that with people he didn't even really know, imagine the people he felt comfortable with to, like, try to, like, see how far he could push it.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Ding dong. Exactly. And Barbara was not. Babs was not alone in this opinion. And I will say he went by John. So sometimes the quotes will say John, but that was his middle name. And so if it's quoted as John, that's why. He did seem well liked by other classmates, though, probably ones that, you know, just appreciated the. The surface level stuff of what he brought to the table, you know, and maybe. Maybe that's it. But most people remembered him as pretty unremarkable. Like, he didn't have, like, super close friendships or anything like that. After high school, he really struggled through college. He took. Took, like, tons of college credit hours. I mean, it says 28 credit hours. I'm like, I don't remember what that means, but I'm sure it's a lot.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I think it's like. I think every class is three credits. So it's probably.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Oh, God.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Or eight credits. Three credits. So it's probably like eight or nine classes.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Jesus. Okay, so he's taking, like, insane. And then he would drop several so that he could pass the rest. Like, he was just, like, constantly taking stuff on. He struggled with stress. Well, yeah, wouldn't you know it? And at one point, he even wrote a suicide note that actually got him evaluated by a psychiatrist. And I guess evaluated and nothing more, because that's the end of that. In 1968, he married another, a fellow student, Martha Fogg. But they divorced pretty quickly after that. And the following year, In September of 1969, Gerard began an internship as a social studies teacher, but was forced to withdraw from the program when parents started complaining about him. And she said he was being a creep.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Creepy with the odd. With the students. I mean, like, I am fascinated by. Not that I know any, but I am fascinated and would love to ask questions. I never would, but in a perfect world, I would love to ask questions on someone who's Been married to someone like that, where it's like. Or even ask the serial killer himself. I'm like, how did you marry someone and not get the urge with them? Or like, did you get the urge with them and then I. Out on other people? Or like, how does it work?

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

You should watch some of those, like, Netflix ones where they talk to murderers. I should.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I really should.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Because they really do explain those things, you know.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

What's like, one of the main answers?

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

I mean, I think a lot of times it's like, oh, it's either a marriage of, like, convenience, or we're just having sex, so let's get married. Or I don't know. I don't think. I don't think it's even really that deep a lot of times. Or it's to maintain a facade. A lot of times, I think a facade of a happy family. Right? Or like, just not even a happy family. A normal. Any semblance of normalcy, you know, so poor.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

The poor, poor spouses of those people who. It's like, I. He could have hurt me at any.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Oh, yeah. To learn. I mean, the BTK one is one of the most disturbing, especially when you hear from the children who are like, you know, he was doing this to other children. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So there. And BTK has talked about all that too. So, yeah, you can definitely find that. Find. Find the content you seek. M. Don't worry.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I certainly could. I know.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

And can I tell you something? You said in a perfect world, that means your perfect world already.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

This is my perfect world. Help me.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Isn't that beautiful?

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Yuck.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Okay. And that's on manifesting. Okay. So he got married and divorced. Probably because she was like, wait, this guy's a creep. I don't know. But I imagine it didn't help. And parents had complained. He didn't cooperate with his supervisors. And then guess what? The following year, he was accepted back into the teaching internship program with new supervisors. It's like a priest when they just move him around, you know, I mean,

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

truly, it's just like, why are. And you have to assume he wants this kind of job on purpose, right?

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Exactly. Like, why else are you pushing for this? Yuck. So he began this thing again in. In 1970, March of 1970, with new supervisors in May, two months later, booted again for poor performance, for defensiveness to any criticism, among many general concerns that he didn't know anything about the subject he was teaching.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

So he really was purely there just to be near a bunch of vulnerable

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

girls, I guess So I guess, okay,

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

he's got one, one track mind, I guess. Yuck.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

I guess so. With no teaching career ahead of him, he took a job as a security guard in 1971 where met 19 year old Teresa Dean, who was a secretary and six years his junior. She fell for him. They got married later that year. Gerard lied about his work history in an application to train as a police officer.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I, I am really extra super disturbed. Even more than him being a teacher, I'm more disturbed about him being a police officer because, you know, I mean, I was just thinking back to the story of when he. When they were hiking in a spot where they shouldn't, maybe they were totally allowed to, but like, they weren't going to tell him no.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Yeah, he just made that up. Yeah.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Or what if they said like, oh, no, we don't need a ride, we'll find our way back? Then he could have gotten aggressive and been like, no, you're not supposed to be here.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

I'm arrested.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Car. Yeah, or he could have.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

I mean, yeah, well, remember who else was a cop? Golden State Killer. Yeah, you're on.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I, it's, it's just to know that he's only seeking out jobs where he has authority over somebody is so scary because then if they say no, he could. Then he has a plausible whatever to. Oh, and he does them anyway.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Yeah, don't worry, we'll get there.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Oh, okay.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Oh, so you know the serial killer handbook? I see. Okay.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Yeah, I, Yeah, I've heard enough about these, I think.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Security guard, police officer working with vulnerable populations. I mean, you know, writes itself. So she's 19, she falls for him, they get married, he lies about his work history and an application to train as a police officer, and they never questioned it. And so he became a patrolman and he was known to be a stickler for traffic violations. And he insisted that he was passionate about keeping the road safe.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Safe.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

But in reality, Gerard wouldn't, you know, pulled over women drivers far more often than men. And his department began receiving complaints that he was harassing the women he pulled over.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Oh, good.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Yeah. Some sources say Gerard asked women out during traffic stops. Others say that he used women's license plate numbers to look them up and then call them and ask them on dates. Okay.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Yeah. Oh, my God.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Insane. Insane.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Not even, like, pretending to be discreet about this.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Not even a layer of shame.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

No awareness of fucking.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

No shame.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Also, like, I, I don't have these bones in my body, but if you're trying to, like, lure someone in or like, get them to feel like they can trust you. Like, you have to at least be able to read the room on, like, how to not be such a fucking weirdo at, like, from the beginning, you know?

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Yeah, it did, right? It's like. It's like, where any of those women, I mean, maybe he thought he was charming them, and then he's like, wow, I was so taken by you that, like. Like, I called you and I mean, in some people's minds, maybe that's romantic, right? Like, oh, that cute cop, like, was so smitten by me. You know, you can. You never know what someone feels like.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Something like Grandma would tell you about how romantic grandpa is, and it's like, oh, Grandpa sounds a little up. Yeah.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

But, like, you know, if. Who knows? Like, maybe that works on someone. I don't know. But he got enough complaints sent in that they were like, yo, you can't do that. So anyway, he did it anyway way, and he used this position to harass women pretty consistently. He didn't stop, once again, not listening to supervisors, and was fired six months into the job.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

So according to Fun fact, Christine, I'm throwing it.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

I've been listening.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I wasn't even, like, going to warn you. I'm just telling you now. Fun fact. I'm ready. According to cnbc, nearly half of hiring managers say a candidate's enthusiasm about the job is the most important factor when considering them first role.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

That makes total sense because we had people applying who then said, I don't believe in ghosts. And we were like, what's the opposite of enthusiasm?

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Because it's that, well, if you need to hire for your business, how can you separate the candidates who are really excited about your opportunity from the ones that are just kind of meh. Well, Zip Recruiter is there for you. They are going to find the right people with the right enthusiasm who do believe in ghosts.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Yes.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Unless your, like, whole job is, like, ghost skepticism, then maybe you don't want them, but bring them over over here.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Yeah. Unless you're seeking that particular role or whatever, you know, like, they'll cater to you. But we had very specific needs we were looking for, and Eva, of course, ended up matching those. Zip Recruiter has a new feature that quickly lets you see the most interested, qualified candidates first so you meet the right people faster. And now you can try it for free as ZipRecruiter.com drink ZipRecruiter's new feature puts the most interested qualified candidates at the top of your list. So Instead of number three, Eva would have probably been number one. But you know what? We live and we learn. ZipRecruiter. Okay? You can't be perfect every single day.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Second, use Zip Recruiter and find enthusiastic talent fast. Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. Can confirm. And now you can try it for [e-mail] Drink. That's ZipRecruiter.com Drink.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Meet your match on ZipRecruiter. So he forged a letter of accolade.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Okay.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

And got a new job as a deputy with the Martin County Sheriff's Department. Apartment. Cool. So cool. At roughly 9:30 in the morning on July 22nd, Gerard picked up Nancy and Sue in his deputy vehicle, not in uniform, though he told them that some days he was assigned to wear plain clothes and only do observations. That's all. He's just like, patrolling, you know?

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Okay. I don't know. Is that true? I feel like.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Of course not. No.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Okay. That doesn't feel believable at all.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

I'm just here to show two young teenage girls around town. That's my job.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

No, I'm gonna observe you.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Yeah, Yako. Okay. So he offered to show them this beautiful old Spanish fort on an island. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Remember, they're. They're here to see. So these are the two girls that he said he's gonna show them the town. And he's like, there's this really cool island and there's this beautiful old Spanish fort because, you know, it's Florida. Like, the history on Hutchinson Island. And they're like, sure, yeah, let's go to the. Let's go to the. This old fort. As they stood by the river, Gerard's relaxed demeanor suddenly shifted. He became very serious. And he asked them if they knew anything about drugs in the area. And sue and Nancy were like, no, like, no, of course not. We're literally here with a police officer to look at tourist stops.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Like, you took us here.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

No, we don't want.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Do you know anything about Trump and,

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

like, why do you want to know? Like, they were like, what the. So apropos of nothing, Gerard told him. I'm telling you, m. There's no way I can prepare you for this except to say apropos of nothing. Gerard told them he could dig a hole and bury them in it.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I mean, unfortunately, I smelled that from a mile away. That.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Right.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I mean, as soon as you're asking about, you know, anything, what. Whatever their answer is, you now can say, like, well, I Don't believe you or whatever it is, you know?

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Well, I'm, I'm so happy to hear that because you're right. Because he told them there would be no crime without a body. But instead of being afraid, they were irritated and they said, it's too hot.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I wish I had the audacity of a kid that age.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

I, I, these 1970s, I miss just being annoyed. They're like, I just can't with this guy.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

You know, I like how you just, I cut you off there. But you did say that it's just too hot.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

And like, they're just too hot. They're like, it's too hot and we're too sweaty for this right now.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

And that alone. Honestly, if something bad were to happen to me, I'd be like, could it happen on a day, on any other day hot, Please.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Yes, it's Florida and we're on an island. I am estimating mosquitoes are swarming this.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Threaten me in the cold or something.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Yeah. This guy who is a police officer, so they're not like that afraid, but they're also like, what is your deal guy?

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Like, well, also, if he's. Maybe because he wasn't in uniform, maybe he didn't have like a, a visible firearm on him, so he felt true.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Maybe it's less threatening. And they're like, what the fuck is up with this loser? Like, maybe they don't.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

They could still take him if it's just the two of them and like a random man.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

And they've, I mean, they've seen. And is the mosquito. Go back.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

It is. He heard me talk about it.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Oh, my God. It's haunting. But yeah, they, I mean, they had, they were like, very trained in the art of keeping themselves safe. Right. And like, keeping each other safe. And so they were not afraid. They were irritated and sweaty and hot and they wanted to go to the beach. And we're like, what the. Okay, so Gerard became agitated and he said he was placing them both under arrest.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Yep. I mean, immediately. Well, the second you're asking, the second that you want there. I mean, I'm just saying the obvious

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

at this point, but you're right, but you're right. Like, Jesus Christ. Of course. And so he gets out, he handcuffs them, and then he sits back in the cruiser. Then he asks them if they know anything about white slavery.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Oh, okay. It's escalating quite fast.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

It's getting out, out of. It's getting out of hand.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I almost feel like that when he first arrested them, or handcuffed them. I feel like they were, like, giggling, like, ah, this is so funny.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

They were probably like, what is it? What is with this guy?

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Isn't he, like, trying to, like, be friends with them? And it's like, yeah.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

He's like, get off me. And like, he's clearly trying to play the. Like, you better listen to your elders. Like, I'm a cop, and you should listen to me. And I would have thought he was

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

kidding at first and then been like, oh, my God. Like, I would. The immediate pan panic would have kicked in quickly.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

So they're a little bit, like, confused. Like, you're saying. Like, they're like, what the is going on? Are we like, is this a bit. Is this not a bit? Right? Unfortunately, it's not a bit. And he asks if they know about white slavery. And then he starts discussing methods of forcing the women into human trafficking. And they're still not afraid. They're just more confused and, like, fed up. And so they stopped talking to him.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I love that they're, like, actually silent treatment time.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

They literally just stopped responding. And he got so they gray rocked him, and he got so mad. Okay, so they're gray rocking him. Gerard gets out of the cruiser, and he gets some ropes and sheets out from the trunk. He tears gags from the sheet. He ties them around their mouth.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Mouse.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

I mean, they're already not talking to you, but whatever.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Right, right, right.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Like, okay, go off, king. Okay. So he made sue sit on the ground so he could tie her legs together. He then handcuffed. He then made them aware that he was armed after handcuffing them. So at this point, they don't know what else to do. Nancy at this point, realized she could have run, she could run away, but she.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

She doesn't want to leave her friend.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

I can't. I'm not leaving Sue.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Yeah, yeah.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

So she stays. Gerard told sue that if she tried to escape, he would kill Nancy and then find her and kill her, too. And she's like, I ain't going nowhere. So he leaves sue tied up on the ground, forces Nancy to follow him to a tree in the river. The river was a body of water that cut Hutchinson island from the mainland. And at low tide, there would be these, like, enormous tree root systems that came up visible above the water.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Water.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

And so Gerard made Nancy climb onto the roots, then tied her legs and tied a noose around her neck.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Oh, my God.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

I know. So that if she even slipped on this, on. On the slick branches, the slick root system.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Don't think about running away. Even if you accidentally run away, it'll. Yeah. Oh, my God.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Horrifying. So he looped that over a tree branch, tied it to another branch behind her, and if she slipped off the wet roots, she'd be hanged. So she is trapped in this position. Gerard. Gerard pinched her butt, threatened to rape her, and then left her there.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Oh, God.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Nancy managed. Now listen to this. Managed to maneuver her way out of the gag first, then twist her head to chew on the knot of the noose. She's so powerful, it could not come undone in her mouth. But when she dared to lean back slightly, even with, like, this terrifying situation, she felt the point where the rope was tied to another branch. And because she had been chewing on that part, the other part of the rope, it had been loose, loosened. So she, with the handcuff ties, was able to reach that knot and untie it. She's with her, literally.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Are you kidding me?

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Yeah, like, literally. MacGyver, right? McAlver.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

McGowan.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

I think. I think I've tried that joke before, and it did not land. Okay.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Lands here. That's.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Thank you. Thank you. She. I love all the laughter I heard. Okay. She. That's how I know it was a good joke.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I was no more clever. I was just like. Like, that's good. Yeah.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

It's like when Blaze goes. It's like Gwen Blaze goes. That's funny. And I'm like, is it?

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I did. Truly, I was on your side.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Is it, though? Thank you. I do appreciate it. I do. I can tell. I do appreciate it. So she's able to, like, pull her hands out and unbound her legs. But of course, she still has handcuffs on, like, police handcuffs. So she can't get her handcuffs off. So she sneaks away first to hide the ropes because she's like, if Gerard comes back, back, at least he won't know where the ropes are and can't tie me back up. And I'm like, this girl's. She's smart.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Like, she's on it.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

She's like, at least he can't hang me again. Which, like, maybe that's also survival instinct. Like, oh, let me put this as far away from me as possible. But either way, like, she gets rid of that. She saw his car was still parked there, so she knows he's, like, in the vicinity and probably watching her.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

That's the scary part.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Either watching her or she doesn't know what he's doing with sue, her best friend, either. So it's like. Like terrifying. Yeah. He could come back Any second, he could be watching her right now. She knew she couldn't fight him with her hands in handcuffs. So she traveled through the river and she followed it because she knew it would lead to the highway. At one point she.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Incredible.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

I know. And at one point she heard someone calling her name and she almost responded, but then was like, oh, Gerard might be forcing sue to call for me.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Oh my God.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

She's so to lure me smart to lure me back and I need to smart to safety before I. I mean, what the talk about. I mean.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

And like, in some ways, like, if I were sue right now, I'd be like, where the are you? I'd be like, get over here. But at the same time, I'd be like, she's on her way to get help.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

She's.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

No.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

I'd be like screaming the name. You're like, don't. Don't listen to me.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I wouldn't even thought to do that. I would have been. I would have. I would be like, yoo. I'm right here.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Oh my God. I know, I know. Terrible. So she did not respond. She saw cars. Like, eventually she kept going. The river got really deep and she had to swim without using her hands. And like, hope she didn't get swept into anything, you know, but she kicked, she floated sideways, and she really had to relax her body to stay afloat, which was also like, obviously in the most stressful time of her life. To relax your body is like, what the. The. So the section of the river was wide and she could actually see cars ahead, but they were so far away. Like, they were just like small on the horizon. So there's no way they could see her. But she finally made it to shore and she remained in knee deep water because she was too exhausted to like climb out of the water at this point. And she just started screaming at passing cars. Her feet were bloody from all the shells. She'd been stung twice by jellyfish and later told a newspaper, I got stung by two jellyfish while swimming. That's not very fun, girl.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Once is enough with my hands untied

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

without someone killing my friend in Barbados on an all expenses paid vacation. Yeah, right.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Like on a Sandals vacation package.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Totally, totally.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I. That's. I can't even.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

It's just absurd.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I mean, I guess when you're. You have so much adrenaline you can't even feel.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

I know. And I think that's what happens in these scenarios. It's like you're just instincts and you're. You're. Something turns on and you're like, in go mode, survival mode. It's amazing. So Sheriff Robert Lewis Crowder, Gerard's boss, pulls over in front of her, and the reason he's there is because he's out looking for Nancy and Sue. Why is he out looking for Nancy and Sue? Because Gerard had called in to the police station and admitted his own crime. Crime?

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

What?

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Yeah.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Was it because I'll maybe did. He realized that she was missing and was like, oh, I better tell on myself.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Huh? Huh? Huh. Wow.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

He was like, well, maybe I'll. I'll have a better shot if I own up to it versus getting told on.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

You're gonna be mad. So he calls. I've done something foolish. You're going to be mad at me. He told a story to Crowder that what happened is he wanted to teach them the dangers of hitchhiking.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Oh, shut the.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

So he was just. He was just, like, trying to scare them straight, you know, like, he was trying to.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

It was a bit. It was a silly joke, but they're

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

from the two series of the World. Like, these are vulnerable women, and I don't want them to just be out there.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Let's pretend he's telling the truth. Let's pretend for a second he still committed crimes by hanging her in a tree and holding them at gunpoint and threatening rape.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Like he said she said. He said she said. Runaway teen.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I'd be like, here. I'm opening my mouth right now to get a sample of all the rope fibers. I had to chew alpha myself.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Point. Well, don't even worry about it, because, of course, they find her on the side of the road, and, like, it's obvious she's been through it. Okay? Like, nobody's right. Nobody's like, oh, he did it. He did something great. They found them. They found. First of all, a truck driver had found sue first, and she was handcuffed alone and screaming for help as he drove by. And the truck driver and sue called the sheriff department, requested to speak to the sheriff directly. None of the deputies. And when Crowder found Nancy, he told her sue was alive. And as he uncuffed her and wrapped her in a blanket, she asked, what's going on? He said, guess we had one bad apple in the bunch.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I think everyone just made that sound with me. Okay?

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

It was a communal mantra.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I like. I can't even get into the spiel about bad apples right now, but, okay, please.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

And here's where it just gets worse. Sheriff Crowder fired Gerard, and of course he did, because he's a Good guy. And he did the right thing. He fired the man, and he requested he receive a psychiatric evaluation, but that never happened, and he just moved right on.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

What a.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Here's what Crowder later said. I don't think anyone recognized the potential seriousness of what he had done. Huh?

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I think everyone but you, babe. What the are you talking about?

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Piece of. In the end, Gerard accepted a deal and was charged with one count of assault and was sentenced to six months in prison.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

This is not the end of the story.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

It's. No.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Okay, okay. I was like, you're kidding. Okay.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

No. It just keeps going. The next spring, in April 1973, men collecting aluminum cans in a Florida swamp were horrified to discover human remains in what appeared to be a shallow grave. Now, this site was less than 10 miles from the riverside where Gerard had abducted Nancy and Sue the summer before. At least one of these victims had been bound and tied to a tree. So the Florida heat and wildlife had impacted the condition of the remains. But investigators were able to use clothing and dental records to identify the remains as blind belonging belonging to 17 year old Susan Place and 16 year old Georgia Jessup. The two girls that we started the story off with who met and went

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

to the beach, Colorado, but also playing guitar on the beach. Yeah.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

And here they are found the following year, their remains. One, like I said, had been tied to the tree. So essentially, we know that's what he was planning to do, was to kill, obviously, the other. Other two. And when one got away, you know, sue escaped as well.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I'm honestly surprised. I'm surprised that he even tried to do that with two girls versus one, like, just like. Like, why would you wonder? I don't know. I would think that, like, if this is your, quote, first time doing this, like, would you.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Wasn't.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Okay, got it.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Oh, don't worry, it wasn't. Oh, don't worry, it wasn't. Remember, he was killing animals at 10 or whatever. Yeah. Okay. So, yep, one bad apple in the bunch. So now these remains are found, and Susan's parents, Lucille and Ira Place, had already suspected that this creep Jerry, who was like, in her. Their daughter's bedroom and was like, it's fine, Mrs. Whatever. We're just going to the beach. Like, she already suspected this guy. I remember she wrote down his license plate. So they had managed to solve the license plate mistake that the police said was a mystery. Right. Because they couldn't figure out how the to find a license plate in a different county. So they figured it out and were like, oh, it's just from a different county. And Jerry Shepard is actually a guy named Gerard Schaefer, and he was apparently serving a sentence for abducting two women. So they've already found this all out before the remains were even found. And he had committed that several months before. He'd appeared in their daughter's bedroom and said, said, hey, we're just gonna be out for a while. And then they never saw their daughter again. So they already knew, like, this guy killed our daughter, most likely. And, you know, at first the timeline didn't make sense because it said he was serving his sentence. But what had happened is that he had actually his beautiful wife Teresa, who just was in love with this guy for some reason, vouched for him. So there's another answer for you. And said, you know, gave an alibi. Right. And made bail for him and he was released for several months. So that was just not in the record. So they didn't realize. And on that release is when he killed their daughter.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Okay.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

So as the pieces began to fall into place, investigators filed a warrant to search Gerard's home. What a great idea. Lt. Chuck Hemp of the Oakland Park Police Department later said that the house was fairly large. And for a while they didn't find much of. Of interest until they flipped through one of his pornography magazines and a two page document fell out of the pages that described kidnapping, torturing, and murdering women. It was just one piece of many writings Gerard had done on the subject of harming women. He wrote that there would be plenty of opportunities to choose women to abduct from among the many seasonal visitors to Florida. So he just loved like the tourist aspect of being able to do.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I mean, it's the easiest. It's like people that are already away and out of towner people and if

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

they go missing, especially in the 70s, you're not like on find my. You know. I mean. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So he wrote about different methods to humiliate rape, torture and mutilate women. And to answer your other question, he wrote that murdering women in pairs was ideal for him because according to him, him women let their guards down when they travel together.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Oh, okay. I don't know if that's really true.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

I mean, I think it kind of was. Yeah, I think so. I mean, I think it depends, but I think like safety and numbers. I mean, if your friend is with you and you're both like really self reliant and tough and you're like, sure, we've seen a creep before, you know. Right. And before you Know it. This guy's, like, completely disarmed you and been like, like. And suddenly you're. Yeah, I think. I think. I think he unfortunately knew. Knew what he was doing. Yeah. So that's all the stuff they found in his writings. But of course, he later maintained that this was all fiction and he. They couldn't convict him just based on these documents. But in a closet, detectives discovered something they could convict him with. It was an antique trunk filled with trophies. Okay. Trophies from his victims. There were personal items such as planners and jewelry. There were teeth with gold fillings. God. He was eventually charged with first degree murder for the killings of Susan Place and Georgia Jessup. He pleaded not guilty and was extremely smug throughout the entire trial, thinking he was literally not going to be found guilty. But also, like, he had been treated so leniently with everything else he did. It's not a surprise. Like, at this point, he probably would just get off, you know? Right.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I mean, it would be hard for him to believe that he could get off.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Right. Exactly like it. In his own pattern of behavior. He's gotten away with it many, many times.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Have you ever watched those videos online of, like, the, like in courtrooms when, like, someone who's horrible and, like, is clear, like, needs to be put away, is acting really smug towards the judge.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Oh, I can't stand.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

And then the judge, like, really lays

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

it out and eviscerates them.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Yeah, it's like, like they took a plea deal. Took a plea deal. And then the judge is like, I'm actually rescinding the plea. I'm deciding that. There's no plea deal. You're going to jail for the rest of your life. Yeah.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Piece of. Yeah.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I love those videos where, like, you just see someone smug. Get humbled.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

I know. Just, like, get that. Get that grin off your face.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Yeah,

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

yeah. So they discover this stuff. He says, oh, I'm not guilty. Super smug. Hug. In one surviving footage of an interview, he smiled as he said, I didn't do it. I don't think the state has proved I did it in any way. And the testimony of my witnesses has counteracted the testimony of the other witnesses. So he really just didn't think it was going to happen.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

What an.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

What an. He was, thank God, convicted for the murders of Susan and Georgia. But the death penalty, shockingly, was not legal in Florida at the time. So the prosecution sought a. 2. Two sentences of life in prison. And they did win this Request. Request. But he was stabbed to death in prison by another incarcerated man on December 3rd of 1995.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

So how long was he in before

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

he, before he died? Great question.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Because I'm always so over it every time I watch like the Law and Order episodes. I know that's not, that's very different than this, but that's my only experience.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Right, right.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Is when like someone who deserves to go to jail for the rest of her life, like ends up quote, getting away with it by dying like the day of, of going into channel.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

It always happens. It's like so anticlimactic.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Or like has a heart attack immediately and it's like, oh, come on. Yeah, I don't know, maybe that's awful of me that I want.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

I don't know. I think someone's wait, someone's waiting, someone's waiting for him.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

How long was, did we know how long he was there?

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

I don't know. I believe probably 15, 20 years.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Okay, so something around there immediately at least.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

No, I believe, I believe he was there for like over a decade. I don't have the exact date, but it was, he was in there for a while. Now I do want to add, there's like a last unfortunate like part to this.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Good.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Yeah. It gets worse. I know, it's just like. Of course it gets worse. Okay, so he is convicted, sentenced to two sentences of life in prison. Gerard is stabbed to death. In 1995, he was charged for those two murders. But and here's the kind of like add on to this. He is suspected to have killed between 11 and 28 women. Wow. In 1966. And I'm just going to mention a few here because in 1966, 20 year old Pamela Ann Nader and 21 year old again, two Nancy Elaine Leichner were at a picnic with friends in the Alexander Springs Recreation area of the Ocala National Forest in Altoona, Florida. And they left the picnic spot to walk a nature trail and never came back. Wow. They were not believed to have drowned because they were such good swimmers. And they were literally attending the picnic as members of a swimming club.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Like, hello.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

So like, hello. And they had already decided not to swim that day because it was too cold. So they were like, they did not drown. That's not what happened.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Right.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

In 2007, Lake County Sheriff's Office Cold case review board announced that Gerard Shaffer had murdered both women. So this was, you know, know.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Okay, so at least that's 22 years.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Yeah, 22 years after his death. But yeah, they confirmed that he did kill them, Pam. And you know what's so dark too is that Pamela and Nancy's at the time boyfriends were once suspected in the case. So you know like you think of just the decades of this that the.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Yeah, I'm, I'm not discrediting that or even just like the, the grief and torment that the family and friends went through without answers.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Absolutely. That that was the biggest thing and they all expressed like finally getting closure in 2007, you know.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Yeah.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

In 1969, 24 year old Lee Pharrell Hain Line Bonadies disappeared. Lee and Gerard had known each other for years which is also scary that he knew someone for years before even acting on the murderous like tendencies. Right, sure. Her brother had actually considered Gerard a good friend when they were teenagers. So this was like definitely someone who felt safe with him. Lee's remains were discovered at a construction site in 1978 and a bracelet that belonged to Lee was ident amongst the items in the trunk in the antique trunk that was in his house. G 22 year old Carmen Marie Hallock disappeared that same year and a shamrock pin that belonged to her and two of her teeth were discovered in the trunk. It's just so sick. 22 year old Belinda Hutchins disappeared in 72. Belinda and Gerard had briefly dated before her disappearance and a dress book belonging to Belinda was found in his house house in 2022. Remains were identified as belonging to 15 year old Susan Poole who had disappeared in 1972 and her skeletal remains were discovered in 74. But it took nearly half a century for DNA testing to confirm who this was and give Susan her name back. She was discovered tied to a tree matching Gerard's pattern. So it made sense that she was one of his victims. And Susan's mother who was in her 90s was still alive to receive the closure. When they found out at least that several of Gerard's suspected victims were children even younger than Susan Poole. For example, an eight year old girl named Wendy Brown Stevenson and her nine year old friend Peggy met each other at Pompano Beach. They spent the day playing together, becoming best like fast friends. You know when you meet someone as a kid and you're just like clicked instantly?

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Yeah.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Yeah. Well they became fast friends that day at the beach at 1pm they walked to the parking lot for ice cream. An employee would later report that a man purchased cigarettes him for himself and purchased ice cream for the two little girls. Wendy and Peggy were never seen again.

[Narrator/Ad Voice]

Wow.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

It was suspected that they drowned, but that was ruled out eventually and early on Gerard denied that he killed the girls, but he Confessed to the murders eventually in a letter that he wrote in 1989. Nine.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Wow. Okay.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Peggy and Wendy remain missing. More disappearances and murders of women and girls have been linked to Gerard Schaer. And it. This is for sure not an exhaustive list. It's just some like very clear one connections we have. Okay. Nancy Ellen Trotter and Paula Su Wells are the only known survivors.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Wow.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Gerard Shaffer targeted. Gerard maintained that he abducted the women to teach them a lesson because he was concerned for their safety. And I want everyone to just take that sentence. Sentence. Hold that. And when somebody says something like that to you really feel into. Is that true or does this not feel safe?

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Because 100.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

You can really disarm someone with that kind of. I'm just concerned for your safety. Yeah, I've heard that before. Jesus Christ. So it is assumed that Gerard, of course planned to kill both women that day, but failed. And you know, we don't proof of that, but I have enough proof to decide that for myself.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I decided for myself also correct.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Thank you. Despite performing acts of extreme ingenuity, bravery and physical strength. Nancy just said she felt lucky about escaping the whole thing. And I imagine in that state you're probably dissociated in like just surviving, but, you know, you deserve. She deserves all the props. And I, I'm.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I'm support. Yeah.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Blown away. Very proud. Whatever.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

I mean, that's. That's. That's huge to survive something like that.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

So that's. That. And now I have to go lift weights.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

At least you've got like. You're all like. You've got a reason to be angry.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

And, you know, I know she's gonna be like, what's this weird vibe you've brought to the table today?

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Let me tell you. Yeah.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Let me tell you.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

O. Well, at least someone survived. I don't know. I don't know how to end that. That's great. That's great.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Sorry.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Great.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Sorry for her. Yeah. I'm happy that they survived and I'm sorry about all the horrible stuff that happened. And thanks for listening to our podcast. Sorry if we bum you out. We love you a lot, though.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

We do. And hopefully everyone's. Everyone's having a good. Whenever this comes out. Hope you're having a good one of those. A good week of a month. And we'll. We'll see you next time to horrify you with even worse. Is that a good way to end this?

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

I think it's perfect.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

Okay. And that's why we drink your call.

[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

Has been forwarded to voicemail. Hi, this is Zoe Deutch and Nick Robinson.

[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

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[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

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[Host 2 (likely Christine)]

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[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

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[Narrator/Ad Voice]

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[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

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[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

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[Host 1 (likely Renee)]

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