E489 Cartwheel Trauma and an Oenophile Ghost

Summary

Podcast Summary: And That's Why We Drink

Episode E489: Cartwheel Trauma and an Oenophile Ghost
Hosts: Christine Schiefer & Em Schulz
Release Date: July 12, 2026

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Overview:

This episode delivers the classic blend of true crime and paranormal storytelling with plenty of hilarious personal anecdotes and candid banter between Christine and Em. The true crime segment explores the infamous "Bella in the Witch Elm" mystery, while the paranormal segment covers the haunted Woodburn Mansion. Along the way, the hosts share stories of childhood trauma, current woes (cartwheels, mysterious animal noises, toe fungi, and family recipe heists), and answer the eternal question: what would lure their own ghosts? They round out the show with audience shout-outs and commentary on the oddities of English crime lore.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Cartwheel Trauma and Childhood Memories

Timestamps: 02:07 – 08:56

• Christine recounts her recent humiliation at a Jiu Jitsu gym where she was pressured into doing a cartwheel, triggering old memories of childhood embarrassment from a gymnastics class.

  • “I behaved really inappropriately when they... I reacted extremely strangely when they asked me to do a cartwheel.” – Christine (03:31)
  • Her brother recalls past trauma: being singled out as the only kid unable to do a pushup or cartwheel, ending in public embarrassment and her mom’s intervention.

• Em shares her own (possibly imaginary) memories of gymnastics and flying dreams, suggesting they might have been astral projection.

  • “It’s as real to me as the memory of flying around my kitchen when I would fall asleep at night.” – Em (06:34)

• Both reflect on how childhood moments end up affecting adult life, theorizing their careers as podcasters were a cosmic consolation prize for failed gymnast destinies.

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2. Weekly Grievances & Reasons to Drink

Timestamps: 08:56 – 19:11

• Christine suspects paranormal activity in her house after hearing footsteps she can’t account for on the roof – possibly animals, Santa, Satan, or her cats.
• Em preps for upcoming travel, struggles with packing, and shares about finding a massive trove of family recipes while “snooping” through a relative’s filing cabinet.
  • (“I just wanted a copy for myself and I didn’t want to, like, say, ‘let me take all this from your home’ ... I feel like I did it as ethically as possible.” – Em, 14:24)
• Discussion about dealing with medical concerns, including Em’s first suspected nail fungus (“I just never had it before... it sounds like something many generations higher than me would get.” – Em, 17:22), and Christine’s hunt for a cold brew smoothie.

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3. Paranormal & True Crime Stories

A. The Haunted Woodburn Mansion

Timestamps: 23:59 – 56:47

Setting & History

• Woodburn Mansion in Dover, Delaware, built in 1790, is now the governor’s residence.
• Passed through several notable hands: Charles Hilliard III (original owner), the Bates family, Daniel Cowgill (a Quaker/abolitionist), and became the governor’s home in 1965.
• Connection to the Underground Railroad: Cowgill reportedly hid people escaping slavery in the house's cellar, where shackles were later discovered.

Hauntings & Notable Ghosts

• Southern Raider Ghost: A slave-raider who died after getting stuck in a tree has been heard screaming from the tree (35:13).
  • “He slipped out of the tree and his head got stuck in a hole... ended up strangling himself to death.” – Em (34:15)
• Charles Hilliard III: Seen often on the stairs in outdated wig and clothing, sometimes passing residents.
  • “How do you just get used to seeing a man you know is dead?” – Em (39:47)
• "Oenophile" Wine-Loving Ghost: A spectral figure who drinks any wine left out; verified by former governor Ruth Ann Minner (43:07)
  • “If the wine is left out in this house, it will be drank by someone who is not alive.” – Em relaying Ruth Ann Minner’s account (43:44)
• Little Girl in Red Gingham: Spotted in the garden and corner of rooms, sometimes tugs guests’ clothing and is caught on EVPs saying, “Play with me.” (50:00–51:10)
• Traveling Minister: The first eyewitness to Charles’s ghost, now also haunting the library, with a stern demeanor.
• General activity: Shadow figures, footsteps, swinging chandeliers, tobacco smells, physical touches, and a chilling incident where doors down a hallway slam one after another.

Host Discussion Highlights

• Hilarity ensues as Em and Christine debate what treats would lure their own ghosts (candy and charcuterie for Christine, anything carb-heavy for Em).
• Em ponders the idiosyncrasies of governor after governor knowingly “testing” the wine ghost with strategically left decanters.
• Both discuss the challenge of keeping the lore and content of their own book straight, resulting in meta laughs about “double jokes.”

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B. True Crime: Bella in the Witch Elm

Timestamps: 64:22 – 112:12

The Discovery (66:01–76:16)

• In 1943 Worcestershire, UK, four teenage boys trespass on Lord Cobham’s estate during WWII, searching for eggs. They find a human skull in a hollow witch elm tree (69:02).
  • “He reaches down, thinking it’s a nest or an animal skull... but he realizes it is a human skull that he has picked up.” – Christine (70:03)
• Police find a near-complete skeleton, gold ring, shoe, glass bottle, and the bones of a hand scattered nearby.
• Forensics: The body is a short, slender woman, ~35–40, dead for 18 months, suffocated with fabric stuffed in her mouth.

Graffiti & “Bella” Lore (78:11–82:57)

• In 1944, mysterious graffiti near the site appears: “Who put Bella down the witch elm?” and variants with “Lubella.”
• Hosts theorize possible motives for the graffiti, noting it may be the killer, a witness, or a prankster, and discuss how this anonymous note shaped the entire legend.

Theories Explored (84:20–103:18)

• Spy Theory: Suggestion the woman was Clara Bauerle, a German spy/performer (“Clara Bella”), possibly parachuted in during the war—debunked by later research but still alluring because of coincidental details.
• Alternative Spy/Local Theory: Letter-writer “Anna” (real name Una Mossop) claims her ex-husband Jack, a black-marketeer, once went drinking with a Dutch woman named Clarabella Drunkers—who supposedly died after being pranked or punished by being put in the tree. Jack suffers guilt-induced hallucinations of a woman staring from a tree trunk.
  • “He was institutionalized... kept seeing hallucinations of a pale woman staring out at him from a tree trunk.” – Christine (97:31)
• Occult/Witchcraft Theory: Promotion of the “Hand of Glory” idea—cutting off a hand for magical purposes and hiding a witch’s body in a tree to trap her spirit.
• More Mundane Theories: She was a displaced local, sex worker, or war casualty, none ever confirmed due to missing records and ultimately the disappearance of the physical evidence.
• Physical Evidence Disappears: The skeleton is apparently kept in a police “Black Museum” at the “Tally Ho Training Center,” then vanishes entirely in the '60s or '70s (106:01).
• Modern Forensic Efforts: 3D facial reconstructions commissioned in 2018 using autopsy photos, but the case remains open and unsolved, with calls for the bones to resurface.

Host Commentary

• Christine and Em riff on British place names, spellings (“constabulary”), and the wild number of competing theories, with both voicing skepticism at the occult angle.
• Saddened by the lack of closure, they appreciate the enduring intrigue, artistry, and community lore that surrounds unsolved mysteries like Bella in the Witch Elm.
  • “I love when you do an unsolved mystery.” – Em (112:01)
  • “I love to hate it.” – Christine (112:09)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I would cancel. And by the way, that would have been exactly the reaction I gave them too.” – Em, on being asked to do a cartwheel in adulthood (02:53)
• “I guess I just need a double microphone. So I’ve just always got a box with my working equipment.” – Em, on learning to be a travel-ready podcaster (114:16)
• “Who put Bella down the witch Elm? Hagley Wood.” – Graffiti quoted by Christine, about the central true crime mystery (78:32)
• “If the wine is left out in this house, it will be drank by someone who is not alive.” – Governor Ruth Ann Minner (quoted by Em, 43:44)
• “You will never solve the mystery. The one person who could give the answer is now beyond the jurisdiction of earthly courts.” – “Anna” (Una Mossop), mysterious letter-writer on the Bella case (94:47)
• “She had actually died of suffocation, not being stuck, because they found down her throat a tightly packed wad of fabric.” – Christine (76:26)
• “I’m treating it as a trip. So, I’m gonna stay a couple days… I think I’m just gonna start bringing my microphone everywhere.” – Em, on adapting to the nomadic podcast life (113:37)
• “I feel like a bruise again this week.” – Em, summarizing their existential state (10:33)

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Additional Notable Segments & Timestamps

• Animal & Home Anecdotes: 8:56–11:29, 62:16–63:55 (Gio’s celebrity vet visit; Em discusses packing woes)
• Audience Shout-Outs: 62:43–63:14 (Dr. Marisa Hernandez and sister Ally recognized Christine and Gio at the vet)
• Productivity Tips & Life Hacks: 14:10–16:28 (Em on ethical snooping and recipe preservation)
• Bonus Banter about Names (‘Dorcas’): 91:58–94:09
• English Eccentricities: 66:55–68:43 and throughout the “Bella” story (quaint British location names; Tally Ho Training Center)

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The Hosts’ Tone & Chemistry

• The episode is rich in dry wit, honest oversharing, infectious laughter, and a willingness to interrupt each other for stories or meta-commentary.
• Self-deprecating, candid, and affectionate, particularly regarding their inability to recall their own published work, or their shared outsider status in sports.
• Both are quick to attribute their quirks and woes as valid reasons "why they drink," making the show both relatable and charmingly idiosyncratic.

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Conclusion

Episode E489 delivers on every front: a bizarre and unsolved true crime (Bella in the Witch Elm), a quintessentially American haunted house with a wine-thirsty ghost, and plenty of relatable, funny, and surprisingly tender moments between the hosts. Listeners leave with their curiosity piqued—and a new appreciation for the weirdness of history, the haunting power of old trauma, and the many kinds of ghosts that linger.

Transcript

[A]

I would like everyone to know that I've been waiting to do this Zazzle ad for days because Leona wants to do a Daisy duck Minnie Mouse birthday. So I went on Zazzle, and not only did I get her a bunch of fun stuff like invitations for said birthday, I know it's months away, but I was like, well, this is perfect. They have so many options for cardstock. I even got her her own customizable little stamp with her name on it so she can send thank you notes. I basically prepped for the whole party using Zazzle. It was so easy. I even got her this. Look at this. This is the cutest thing ever. So it's a little Daisy duck blanket with her name on it. Okay. And it was customizable. Came super fast. And then, because I couldn't resist getting Blaze a little something too, I got us this little notepad for the refrigerator. It has Geo junior Mooney on the top with a nice ombre sunset effect. Kind of like word art style magnetic pad for the fridge so that Blaze can stock up on the Twizzlers and Goldfish. That leaves Leona and I request on a daily basis. Zazzle is a custom marketplace where you can take basically any product. So a mug, a blanket, a tote bag, a card, a phone case, and make it mean something. It's super fun to shop on. You're not buying a gift, you're making one. Over 30 million customers have trusted Zazzle with their most important gifts, and yours is next. Right now, save 25% on your first order at zazzle. Com. That's 25% savings on your first order at zazzle. Com. Go make something amazing. Zazzle.com. hey, it's Christy from Lululemon, and I'm here at the office checking out the Shake it out shorts. These have been my go tos, and I kind of think of them as a middle ground between a true run short and a more playful, athletic, sporty short. They have all the performance you want for running, so a comfy liner, our lightweight, swift fabric, even a pocket for your keys. But what I really like is the flowy fit and layered hem. It gives it a little bit of volume, a little bit of fun, so they feel as good on a run as they do just at coffee afterwards. You can find the Shake it out shorts in store now or [e-mail].

[B]

Okay, we're starting over. Take two. Welcome to and that's why I drink. Take one was just too silly for your ears. It would be illegal. And so we Said, we have. We have to ax it. They're not ready.

[A]

I'm like, wrapped in my lucky cocoon. My chrysalis.

[B]

I was gonna say, you really, like, are manifesting. Say that only good things come your way. Although a lot of those horseshoes are upside down.

[A]

Hold on.

[B]

Yeah, just do like a constant. Like be that girl on the beach that does cartwheels over and over and over and it should all stay full.

[A]

Do you know what happened to me at the Jiu Jitsu gym?

[B]

Show me.

[A]

I'm not. I won't be showing you. I won't be showing you.

[B]

What happened?

[A]

I was told to do a cartwheel.

[B]

Ew. I would.

[A]

I know.

[B]

I would cancel. And by the way, that would have been exactly the reaction I gave them too.

[A]

I'd be like, oh, I'm already sweating. And I did. And I was like, no. And then they were like, yes.

[B]

They just. And was this like a litmus test of like, mind over matter? Like, you can do it.

[A]

I think. I don't know. I think it was just like I was being a little. And they were like, just do a cartwheel. Like, stop it. And I was like, I can't.

[B]

I'd be like, that's actually ableist. I like, literally, you're acting like I have muscles in my arms and I was not gifted that.

[A]

I was like, I'm not doing this. Okay. Then I realized I brought it up to my brother and I was like, I behaved really inappropriately when they.

[B]

I would have. There's no other way.

[A]

Like, I reacted extremely strangely when they asked me to do a cartwheel. And my brother goes, well, of course. And I was like, why? And he's like, well, that's what happened to you when you were a kid. Like that exact thing. And I was like, what? He goes, remember we.

[B]

He's just whipping out the trauma. And you didn't even ask for it.

[A]

I was like, why do you remember this? He's like, cuz mom made me go, we brought you to gymnastics. And you were the only one who couldn't do a push up or a cartwheel. And so they. They had me. It was so embarrassing. They made all the kids sit down and watch. And then they like tried to make me do a push up. But she put her hand and she's like, you have to lower your nose all the way to my hand.

[B]

Oh, Christine.

[A]

And she made me do it in front of everybody. And then I just like failed so tremendously that everybody laughed. And then my mom overheard them calling me like, oh, These fat American kids nowadays. And my mom, you know, taking it upon herself to make it about her, went in and started screaming like, we're never coming back here. We are not even American. She's a chubby German child. Haha.

[B]

Jokes on, you know, you're on top of it with the fat comment, but.

[A]

Right, exactly. And so my brother said, oh, I like, we witnessed all, like, all of us witnessed this. And I was like, oh, so. So when poor Skylly was like, hey, can you do a cartwheel? And I was like, why would you say that? I was like, oh, that's why I behaved so. I didn't, I didn't actually react that way. I actually said, no, thank you. And she said, okay, but it's like the next thing. And then just because I panicked, I did a cartwheel. And she's like, great job.

[B]

I mean, it is incredible what adrenaline will do. That is the equivalent of lifting a bus off a child.

[A]

That's.

[B]

You've proven it works, by the way.

[A]

She said, great job. I probably like, did this. I probably like hopped over by like a foot.

[B]

I bet the assignment was you had to cartwheel three times. And she went, one was enough. I've seen what I've seen.

[A]

And she's like, is there like an even more fundamental class that Christine could take where it's like, you know, don't worry, we're not all like staring at you. We're not gonna gossip about. It's just, I just, I like got, I got so triggered by it that I was like, what's wrong with me? And my brother's like, well, you were once made to cartwheel and do push ups in front of like 12 children who laughed at you. And I went, yeah, that'll probably do it. That'll probably settle somewhere deep in there.

[B]

You know, the only memory I have of any gymnastics was actually loving gymnastics. And then I don't know what the happened, because you would think parents would like, want to encourage my interest in sports, but like that when I was a little kid. And by the way, I say when I was a little kid, but if I were to start it up right now, I would need the exact same help of like all of those, like oversized, like triangle shaped pillows that like, I'll help you like, learn how to fall backwards and not hurt yourself and stuff.

[A]

Yes, yes.

[B]

But I remember getting to a point where I was literally leaping over stuff in a flip. I remember this.

[A]

What?

[B]

But maybe it's actually from another life now that I'm saying it out loud.

[A]

Maybe actually you were just a Russian gymnast and it was just like your passion got a glimmer of it as like a little. A little kid. Just a glimmer of it. And then it just faded.

[B]

And all honesty, it's as real to me as the memory of, like, flying around my kitchen when I would fall asleep at night. So maybe that's real.

[A]

That did happen.

[B]

I know it happened. Rejecting fervent confidence. I know it happened.

[A]

Oh, so you're saying it could be like a real memory from a. From a pastel?

[B]

I know it existed sometime in the universe, but I don't know if it

[A]

was this for one suggestion. Could it be that at some point you were astral projecting around your kitchen? You went, I know, I'll stop by the gymnastics studio.

[B]

Or as I was flying, I halted. I halted in midair and just did a little flip and then kept it moving.

[A]

It could be like. I mean, it could be.

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, I. I remember having fun, even if it was just a dream. But I. I'm proud of you for doing a. I could never do a cartwheel. I'll tell you. I could. In the air and fly in the sky.

[A]

But I left out the incident. I did. I don't recall what happened. Everyone said nice and moved on and I was so sweaty that I, like, couldn't function. Yeah, I need so much therapy.

[B]

I would feel like if I were in the room and saw you do it, I'd feel like I was on the chopping block. Cuz I'm like, thank God they picked her. Cuz like, it could have been me, you know?

[A]

Oh my God. Everyone else was just running around doing cartwheels. I'm like, is this a thing we do here?

[B]

Yeah. Why is everyone acting like we haven't? We should have discussed this prior. I should have known this going in.

[A]

Have. Should have signed a waiver because I'm way too delicate for this fucking sport. Not really. I just. I just am too mentally. I need to get my shit together, you know?

[B]

Well, okay, so do you don't have any recollection of your actual like. Like how well it went, the quality of the cartwheel?

[A]

Well, I tried it again the next day because I couldn't really believe my own memory of the incident. And Blaze said, that was pretty good. And I went, maybe you're a gymnast. Okay, okay, I'll take it. Maybe my mom and that gym teacher really just halted what could have been. Maybe we were both meant to be gymnasts. And then when I got all screwed up, in the head, the universe was like, alternate plans. Em and Christine are gonna be podcasters instead. So then you got pulled out of your gymnastics because I showed up and did one class, and they were like, christine's never gonna fudge live up to this.

[B]

I feel like the universe was like, no, no, Simone Biles needs this. So, like, let's move you somewhere else.

[A]

Yes, please. Get rid of these fucking clowns.

[B]

You know, in another world, Simone is the podcaster.

[A]

Yeah. And that should be the world. I think maybe she'd do both, you know? But anyway, we're here. I'm alive. I did a cartwheel. Allegedly.

[B]

Is there a reason why you drink? Is that why you drink?

[A]

Well, right before we recorded, Gio and I both heard some sort of footsteps come in from above me. But that's the roof, so I'm like, there must be an animal up there. Santa? Satan? I don't know. Could be either one, but it sounded almost in the walls. But not. But I gotta say, it was. Sounded like footsteps. So I actually thought maybe Blaze had, like, gone into the crawl space. And so then I called for him.

[B]

Something he does, like, for fun.

[A]

No, no. And so I was like, what is that? But Gio's face was like this too. And I was like, well, he sleeps up here, so if he's not used to the sound, then, like, I don't feel great about that. So I couldn't find the source of it, but it was right here, kind of in my squirrel.

[B]

You just gotta hope.

[A]

You just gotta hope. And so we'll wait and see. But if you hear a loud. Like, if I jump out of my skin and, like, you hear banging sounds, it's a squirrel.

[B]

Are all of your cats accounted for?

[A]

No.

[B]

And because Juniper is as a frequent flyer up there.

[A]

Right. He's a menace. You know, I've never heard him get up there, but I wouldn't put it past him. He goes outside on the roof. I mean, that could have been Laggy.

[B]

Oh, you did get laggy just now.

[A]

Maybe it is a ghost.

[B]

I don't know. Juniper just cut the red wire on the roof.

[A]

Oh, my God. He chewed it up for sure.

[B]

I think you're good. Okay, well, my apologies for whatever's about to happen. Sounds like someone's totally not breaking again.

[A]

It's probably Christmas in July. Let's just go with that.

[B]

Yes, I love that.

[A]

Why do you drink, by the way?

[B]

Oh, I don't know. I feel like. Feel like a bruise again this week. Oh, it's just I'm about To. I was just telling. Pristine off air. I'm about to do a lot of traveling and I think I'm just mentally prepared for, like, the weight of the travel where, like, I'm happy to. I'll be happy once I get to my destinations. But, like, I haven't packed in a while, so I'm a little out of practice on.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Back when we were on tour, I was just like, so used to living out of a suitcase and it's bizarre. It's a. It's a weird feeling to have to pack now. I just. I feel like it was such a muscle memory for a while that I didn't have to think about it, but now it's. It's back to being a task. And so, yeah, and it's a long. I'm going to be gone for, like, at least two weeks. One of them's a wedding. One of them requires a rented tux. But then I'm also kind of panicking about, like, well, if I'm about to leave and I need the rent to

[A]

tux a certain time, I need the rentals with travel.

[B]

It needs to be delivered to another location and will it get there on time and if it doesn't, should I bring a backup?

[A]

So I'm going to ship it back and all that.

[B]

It's just. It will. It's just a silly time with a lot of to dos. Lists of to dos. Also, I told you about the recipe book I'm working on.

[A]

No, I don't think so. Did you?

[B]

I don't know. I don't know anymore.

[A]

Remind me, remind me.

[B]

I found a bunch of old family recipes, but when I say a bunch, I mean like 300. Oh, my God. No, I talked about this somewhere.

[A]

I know you've talked about this. I feel like. Is this like you've collected them?

[B]

I wouldn't. I can't say exactly where because I went searching through a filing cabinet when it wasn't my business.

[A]

Oh, I see. Okay. Yeah.

[B]

So I don't know who listens, but I. And by the way, I don't feel bad about that. God knows my heart. So I.

[A]

Okay. And he's listening. We know that. I mean, she.

[B]

Yeah, they are somewhere. And they didn't stop me, by the way. If God is all powerful. Didn't strike me dead. You know what I'm saying?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think he wanted this, so I

[A]

think that's a good sign.

[B]

And by the way, when I went snooping through a filing cabinet, it was a thousand percent for family stuff. It wasn't like, oh, how much. How many things are they hiding?

[A]

I wasn't going for how many were they hiding, though.

[B]

I, I, as we know, I'd like to try to collect all the family

[A]

stuff, but how many were they hiding?

[B]

Only, Only the recipes. And I don't even think they were hiding it. It just never came up.

[A]

And so you didn't find any ancillary secret? Any collateral secrets?

[B]

No. When I saw the recipes, I stopped my search and I went, jackpot. This is what I. This is the kind of I was looking for.

[A]

Bummer.

[B]

Okay, so I wasn't looking for anything juicy except that steak recipe, and I ended three of them. I found. I found three steak recipes. I basically, I, Anyway, I'm trying. I'll just go get to the good part. So I ended up taking pictures of everything and then putting all the recipes exactly back where I found them and

[A]

then rappelling out of the room on a fucking. What are you doing? You're like in Ocean's One. And it's just m. Realistically, I.

[B]

There is no doubt in my mind, the house I was at, they would have absolutely let me take all the pictures I wanted. I just felt guilty once I found it that I had been looking at all, and so I didn't know how to tell them that I found them at period.

[A]

Yeah, you're like, well, now I found

[B]

them and I can't even tell you how. Yeah, I just feel bad, but I. The guilt has happened. Don't worry. I just feel because I, I was snooping, but with good intentions, but still snooping. You know what I mean? So I feel a little icky about it, but didn't stop me from taking a picture of all the recipes because then what if they end up somewhere else or with a different family member? Now I'm not asking for it.

[A]

It's for the highest good. God knew I.

[B]

For the sake of ancestry, it was good, because you know what? Now all those recipes aren't just going to be in a filing cabinet.

[A]

They're safe hands and safe hands.

[B]

So I'm transcribing them for myself.

[A]

I love that.

[B]

And, yeah, it was. Anyway, I just, I, I knew that there was, like, family stuff in the room, and I was like, oh, I just want to, like, see if I can find anything. And I found something. And then I. So I'm not doing anything with it except just, like, I just wanted a copy for myself and I didn't want to, like, say, like, let me take all this from your home and said, I Just. Yeah, I feel like I did. You had ethical way about it as possible.

[A]

You had, like, a big potato sack with a dollar sign written on it, and you just put all the recipes in that and you threw it over your shoulder like a hamburg and, like, walked out.

[B]

Yeah, no, and by the way, my snooping, I will say, was like, I literally saw one of the drawers was already open, and so I, I, like, I, I. I'm not saying. And that's why I look through it. I'm just saying, like, the level of my snooping, it's not like I spent all night, like, in that room. It really happened where, like, there was a filing cabinet that was open and I was just gonna close it for them. And literally right there, it said, recipes Snooped.

[A]

We've all snooped, and we've all. We've all had only the best intentions, right, guys?

[B]

I mean, I'm saying what I did is not. Is not 10 out of 10. But I will say it was not like, a long hunt for anything. Like, I really stumbled upon it and went, well, that works.

[A]

I'm starting to worry this person listens. I feel like you're backtracking. I feel like now you're like, oh, I did. Am I?

[B]

I really am. That is. That is the honest truth. But I also. I don't. I don't think. There. You listen, but I don't think they're

[A]

gonna care or listen. I think getting family recipes is a very noble. Sorry, my computer just threw itself off of the stand. That disagrees with us. Cool, cool, cool.

[B]

Anyway, I. The reason I drink is traveling, and also the. I did not realize just how many recipes there were. And some of them are in, like, different languages, which is crazy.

[A]

So cool.

[B]

It's very cool. And it's like, they're handwritten. They're all handwritten. So anyway, that was.

[A]

That's fun, though.

[B]

It was very cool to see, but, yeah. Anyway, so I'm just. I've just got a lot of projects on my desk at the moment.

[A]

Just came across your desk.

[B]

I love my desk. And I'm drinking just, like, a chill little tea. Just a little black tea. What are you drinking?

[A]

Well, I would be drinking my nice morning jolt.

[B]

What happened?

[A]

But it had. But it arrived. It arrived. Has it arrived? Oh, a few minutes ago, but it took forever to get here, so that's probably Blaze's problem when he gets home. Okay. Can you bring me.

[B]

Is that your. That's your brown drink with the blue straw.

[A]

Is it? Yes.

[B]

Hey, you one. Another reason why I drink.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

It's a gross one.

[A]

Tell me.

[B]

I think I have contracted. I'm so embarrassed. I'm so embarrassed. A nail fungus. Oh, no, I've never had that before.

[A]

Don't be embarrassed.

[B]

I just never had it before. And it sounds like something that, like, someone, like, many generations higher than me would get. Like, it feels like a bunion.

[A]

Does that help?

[B]

Well, it's just. And I always noticed that this one toenail was just a little discolored, and now it's, like, a bit noticeable. And so I'm like. But I've heard. I. I mean, I'm gonna go to an actual doctor, everybody. But I have been obviously, also looking up, like, home remedies, and everyone is like, soak your foot in Listerine and yellow Listerine.

[A]

Listerine, apparently.

[B]

Yellow Listerine.

[A]

Well, that'll match. That's because it'll match the rest of your foot.

[B]

I've never had anything like this. And I'm like, is my nail gonna fall off or something?

[A]

Like, wait, have you done any, like, your nails not gonna fall? Well, my brother.

[B]

Okay. I can't even actually hear about it. Oh, my God.

[A]

His nail fell off. But it was because he slammed his foot in. He was wearing. He was going barefoot. Walking barefoot into a Blockbuster Video.

[B]

Well, that was kind of. I'm not saying he asked for it. I'm just saying you.

[A]

I'm just.

[B]

What?

[A]

I said, just saying.

[B]

The. The toe was there. Yeah.

[A]

And we did get. Dude, dude, where's my car? That evening. So it. You know, it ended up being fine.

[B]

He was fine. He should have said, dude, where's my toenail? That's what the. Should have made a sequel.

[A]

He may have. And I probably didn't laugh.

[B]

Anyway, I am. I think a doctor visit ought to. Ought to happen soon. So I'm just a little paranoid about it, and I'm a little freaked out. I'm skeeved out by it because I've never, like, had any feet problems before, and you know how I feel about nails.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, I know you'll. But as long as you get it looked at soon. Like, someone will. They'll be, like, an easy fix.

[B]

I hope so, anyway.

[A]

It'll be easy. Those are.

[B]

That's my top three this week, folks. No one asked.

[A]

Blaze said he would bring me my smoothie slash coffee. It's sort of like a mixture of both when he gets home, he said, but it might be a while. So probably halfway through your story, I'm gonna get, like, jump scared. Yeah. So just a heads Up.

[B]

Is it a smoothie or a. Why?

[A]

So it's like a cold brew smoothie thing. So it's like a chocolate and coconut and stuff, but it has some coffee in it? Yeah, like a. Yes. And it has, like blended. It's like a blended coffee type thing. Yeah.

[B]

Precious, precious, precious. I wish many good tastes for your mouth.

[A]

Thank you so much. Please stand by. We have to step away.

[B]

This episode is brought to you by Angry Orchard Hard cider. And they have done us the kindness of sending us some Angry Orchard. And so what we're going to do today is tell you some of the gripes that we have in life. But we are going to use this as a lovely baton where I can. I can air my grievances. And then I'm going to pass it over Christine, through the power of technology.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Our backward back. Back rooms, liminal space.

[A]

We have a mini fridge back there. Yeah, mini fridge in the back rooms. And so Em's gonna go pop one. And by the way, Angry Orchard sent us more than one Angry Orchard, to be clear. But it's way more fun to. To like, pass the baton, you know, it's very fun.

[B]

So I'm gonna. I'm gonna go first. One of the things that gets me angry these days, I have to take Hank to the vet. His. He's doing the boot scoot at the dog park lately. And I'm not loving what I see and. Or smell. It's pretty disgusting. And also I have to go to the doctor myself. My. My feet are not acting right these days. I don't know. Feel like I'm a thousand.

[A]

So we're falling apart.

[B]

Falling apart. I just don't like it anymore. Remember when we started the show, we were 20F and 4. We were 20F and 4.

[A]

You know, it's incredible. We had just as much to complain about then as we do now.

[B]

That's exactly right. Well, so today I complained that I'm. I'm not 24 anymore, but my dog's acting like he's 24 in dog years, so. All right, I'm going to pass it to you now. Christine, this is your turn. Give it a reach. And what are you. What are you angry about today? That the number one hard side in the country can. Can heal. Can help you aid from.

[A]

Thank you so much for asking. You know, I got my nails done as I can show you as I shove this crisp, refreshing cider. And I sat down and the lady looked at my hand and just said, what happened? And I was like, excuse me, I

[B]

think they look evil.

[A]

And then she said, that'll be two extra dollars too. And I was like, I don't know. Anyway, I didn't get angry. I got Orchard. It really is like a staple at our house, especially when we have game nights, things like that. So, you know, it's called. It's called the payment of my pride getting wounded and the bunion on my foot. So I'm also old. Sorry. Angry Orchard. We're also just kind of old. Here you go.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, thank you. Hang on. Thank you. Well, anyway, it's. It's nice to. To air our grievances, but also, I'm sure you've got some grievances, but you don't have to get angry. You can get Orchard. Angry Orchard is made with two real apples in every cider, which is why it has a real fresh apple flavor instead of being overly sugary. It's gluten free. It's crisp, bold, refreshing, as Christina said and tried. And it's. It's. It's really helped me make some friends. The dog bark as well.

[A]

Ye. I love that. Don't get angry. Get Orchard near you. Visit angry orchard.com and use a cider locator to find Angry Orchard near you. Maybe in our liminal fridge.

[B]

Maybe in someone's trunk at the dog park. I don't know. Could be Angry Orchard Cider Company, llc. Angry Orchard is a hard cider with other natural flavors. Please drink responsibly.

[A]

Clink.

[B]

There's one thing I don't like at all in this world, and it is being inconvenienced. I cannot stand it. If there is ever an opportunity to multitask, I will do it. I am just always trying to make as much free time for myself as possible. You know, we all have our own time saving hacks for everyday life. But if you're a business owner, how can you save time hiring? And that is with ZipRecruiter. We have told you a million times why we love ZipRecruiter. We found Eva through ZipRecruiter. It was so easy. We found her within the first same day that we even put the posts out looking for somebody. But now ZipRecruiter is doing even more good work. It is keeping you from being inconvenienced and wasting your time. Because Zip Recruiter has a new feature that quickly lets you see the most interested, qualified candidates first. So you save time by meeting the right people faster. I. If you told me, hey, meeting Eva in the same day that you put out a search for her that was actually. You actually wasted your time because you could have actually found her even earlier in that same day. I'd have been like, oh, my God, that's incredible. ZipRecruiter is always 10 out of 10. We will always sing their praises. And right now, you can try it for [e-mail] drink, save time and meet great candidates sooner. With ZipRecruiter, four out of five employers, including us, who post on ZipRecruiter, get a quality candidate within the first day. So try it for free. That's ZipRecruiter.com Drink that. ZipRecruiter.com/drink. Meet your match on ZipRecruiter. Okay, I have a story for you today, Christine. And you have heard it before because it was covered in our second book.

[A]

Oh, my goodness. Okay.

[B]

I just know you don't remember a single thing that I'm about to say. That's fine. And by the way, neither. Neither do I, because we were supposed to record a while back. And so these notes are also new to my eyes, which I love when. I love when that happens because then we get to explore together.

[A]

It's like, wow. What? Who knew? Apparently I did five days ago. But, yeah, who could have known? I know, it's crazy, but I will say that proves though. I know we say this all the time, but, like, we both wrote and read our book at least twice because we had to write it and read it and then read it aloud for the audible and read put our commentary. So it's like, if I can forget that, like, please, please understand my brain, it cannot hold so much.

[B]

I did use my. My own book as a reference, which is interesting.

[A]

That's a weird one.

[B]

Yeah, but like you just said, it is odd when it's the reference and also you wrote it, and also you don't remember it. So it really does feel like a.

[A]

You better source my work accurately because I'm gonna sue voice.

[B]

Your blurb does show up. Don't worry.

[A]

Hell yeah.

[B]

Okay, so this is Woodburn Mansion.

[A]

Oh, sounds familiar. Sound familiar? It does sound familiar, but I don't

[B]

even know if that's true anymore because I feel like everything. And I'm not trying to, like, poo poo my own stories, but when you

[A]

could tell me that was from, like, Schitt's Creek, and I'd be like, oh, okay.

[B]

Well, I was gonna say everything is either like a hotel or a manor.

[A]

Like, Woodburn just feels very.

[B]

It's Always an old last name. And I. That's not to say, like, all of my stories sound exactly the same, but, you know, when it comes to, like, buildings that have stood the test of time long enough to become haunted, they are kind of all. They do fall into very similar categories.

[A]

Right, exactly.

[B]

So I don't know if you have. If it actually does remind you of anything or it just sounds haunted. You want to take a stab in the world of where it is?

[A]

Is it in Georgia?

[B]

That's a close guess. It's in Delaware.

[A]

I really believed you.

[B]

Hey, east coast. You were right. Same time zones.

[A]

Same time zone. Same time zone.

[B]

It's in Dover, Delaware.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Which I feel like I wanted to cover. The Dover demon.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

For our book. But isn't over. Is. Is it like Dover, Massachusetts or something that the Dover Demons in.

[A]

Oh, didn't you write that in the book?

[B]

I must.

[A]

You like. I don't know. Listen, don't ask me to do a book report on this.

[B]

Right, right, right. Why do I even say this? Okay, so Dover, Delaware. It's a mansion from 1790. It was on the national register of historic places in 1972. And since the 60s. Since 1965. But just to make it easier on your brain, since the 60s, it has been the home of the sitting governor. So if you're the governor of Delaware or. Yeah, of Delaware, you get to live here.

[A]

Is this the one with the ice cream?

[B]

Maybe. I don't know. I don't remember the story anymore.

[A]

Okay, okay, okay.

[B]

Yeah. Take a guess. What do you mean?

[A]

The Joe Biden ice cream?

[B]

Oh, no. I don't know what's happening here.

[A]

Oh, okay, good. Because you covered a story in Delaware and they had like, Joe Biden themed ice cream or something fun. Yeah. And then we read the recipes of it. So I was like, oh, I hope we're not doing the same story again.

[B]

No.

[A]

Sounds like it's.

[B]

We are not.

[A]

Okay, gotcha.

[B]

Would love to hear that, though, because once again, I don't know what the fuck you're talking about. That sounds great. That sounds.

[A]

It was a good one.

[B]

Sounds like I really nailed that episode. Okay. I. I love when there's a governor's house in Virginia. There was a mayor's house that I used to work next to when I did my segwaying and my ghost hunting. And it was like, if you became mayor of Yorktown, then you got to live in the house. I don't know if that's still the case, but I remember always thinking like, I can't Imagine moving into a house and knowing that in four years or how. Whatever the term is.

[A]

Yeah, well, it's probably, like, furnished and stuff for you.

[B]

I would hope so. Can you imagine if it's, like, now a shitload of furniture on your mayor?

[A]

My father Eggs. Well, the mayor, of course, has Faberge.

[B]

Like, honestly, if he doesn't outrust him with our town. Yeah.

[A]

Oh, true. I only. My mayor.

[B]

And I'll tell you, mayor collector, he is. He loves an egg.

[A]

I'm sure he loves those bad boys.

[B]

So this is where the governor sits. It's where. Also where he sleeps and stands. I don't know why we called the word. Okay, whatever. A fun fact about.

[A]

He does cartwheels sometimes. Probably.

[B]

It could be a fun fact about this, which I didn't know I found out from our book. Thank you. Past me is that this house also has a hedge maze in the garden. And then, of course, my blurb from the book involved the Shining, where I'm like, did we not see this coming? This is an old house that you

[A]

already did the blurb about the Shining. So I was like, well, that was my perfect entry point.

[B]

Honestly, in hindsight, I. I wish I could tell you, like, you should just delete my fucking name. Like, I wouldn't have known.

[A]

I should have.

[B]

I wouldn't have known which one of us wrote it.

[A]

Too bad. I have such integrity. So much integrity.

[B]

That's very nice of you. I would have been like, just steal my line, please.

[A]

No, like, Charlie would be like, who the fuck is deleting Christina who's actually

[B]

copy pasting their own avatars into the middle?

[A]

I literally see Christine in there in the Google Doc moving shit around.

[B]

So this house was built in 1790. It was built by Charles Hilliard III, and he bought the land. Fun fact, I know you love a number conversion.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

He bought the land for $110 and

[A]

17.90, which was what a bargain.

[B]

$4,000 today.

[A]

I just feel like that math can't even equate because it's just. I agree. 17. Like, what do you even it? Money doesn't even mean the same thing.

[B]

Probably also like over 200 years later and it's only like four times.

[A]

But, like, who back then had $110, you know what I mean? So it's like 40. Probably nobody.

[B]

I don't remember math. I hear. I hear someone judging me for how bad that math was. Please don't laugh.

[A]

I think it was actually really spot on.

[B]

Thank you. But I'm with You. It does. It feels like it should not if it should be more or so. Anyway, he bought it for the equivalent of $4,000. I think it's shocking because in today's world, I couldn't buy a house for $4,000. So I'm like, how.

[A]

Right.

[B]

How did you do that kind of thing today? Anyway? So he built it in 1790, and when he died, his daughter's family inherited it. So then that's the second generation of Hilliards. They ended up renting it out. This is actually a very fun fact to me and nobody else. He. They rented it out to a governor. And this was in the 1820s, but this was before it ever became like the house that the governor lived in.

[A]

Oh, that's cool.

[B]

This is something only like the person running the tour at the museum would giggle about. And every kid on the field trip's like, I don't care at all about this information, but I think it's a fun fact that, like, even though this is now the governor's house, when they started that system, whoever the first governor was to live there, still wasn't the first governor to live there. Does that make sense?

[A]

Still wasn't the first governor.

[B]

Like, years later, they decided that governors would be living there. But that's still.

[A]

But there were other guy had stayed there before.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh, because he rented it out. Okay, gotcha, gotcha. He had lived there, just not officially.

[B]

Right. So that's the 1820s, the first governor to live there, although it was not technically the governor's house and would not be for a while.

[A]

Ah, okay.

[B]

The first governor that lived there. Fun fact, was Jacob Stout. And so he lived there before it was even the governor's house. And throughout the decades, it did switch hands many times to people who were not the governor until 1965. And that's when the state said, actually the governor should live here. Like, I guess they're like that. Jacob Stout had a good idea.

[A]

And I miss those good old days when Jacob lived here.

[B]

Big Jake, he loved this house.

[A]

He would want other keg tapped in the backyard. That guy. What a guy.

[B]

I love how sensitive. All of the governors, who are obviously men, they all love a fabric egg, love a Faberge.

[A]

They just don't like to admit it.

[B]

They don't tell you that's what's going on in. In male circles.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Another fun fact. The first governor to live there. 100 years later, when it was the governor's house, his name was Governor Charles Terry. Okay, you'll never Hear his name again. But I thought you'd like to know.

[A]

Thank you. Another Chuck. Another Charles.

[B]

Yes, and that's exactly right. So I'll. I'll bullet point it. So in 1790, Charles. Charles Hilliard had it. His daughter inherited it. She then gave it to the governor, who is the first person to rent it out from her. Over time, it then ended up becoming the governor's house. So in between Governor Jacob Stout having it and it officially becoming a governor's house, one of the people who lived there was a family called the Beast Bates.

[A]

Of all names.

[B]

Of all names. They. They also were renters from the Hilliards. So this was pretty early on in. In the house's history. The Bates that ended up buying the house and then they sold it. You don't have to remember all these names, but this. They. Their history is important, but you don't have to, like, remember names. I'll just. I'll keep summarizing. Governor Saud had it, then the Bates had it. The Bates ended up buying the house and selling it to a guy named Daniel Cowgill. And Daniel, he was a Quaker and an abolitionist. He would actually use the house to hide enslaved people here as part of the Underground Railroad.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

And although he helped enslaved people escape here, the mansion was, of course, also previously used to enslaved people.

[A]

Yeah, right, sure.

[B]

So I. Or it was at least. I don't know if this was actually like a working, like, plantation or anything, but it was used by traders of enslaved people, so it did not have the world's best history at all. Daniel Cowgill is trying to just save that history one day at a time, trying to reverse it. And during. During renovations, they did find in the cellar, chains and shackles that were bolted to the walls, which I think confirmed, because I think people talked about it, because of course, we try to, like, erase that history. And people were like, I think this used to be involved in the enslavement of people in some way. And then they found these chains and shack, kind of confirmed it for people.

[A]

Jesus.

[B]

Okay, so when Daniel Cowgill lives here, Quaker and abolitionist, and he's helping with Underground Railroad, he would regularly scare off these Southern raiders who were looking for people who ran away. And they'd come to the house and be like, is anyone hiding here? And Daniel will go, no, get off my property. Meanwhile, many people are hiding there. Well, one day, one night, the raiders come to his house, and he. The story goes that he scared them off. I don't know if it was that he scared them off. Or just told them to leave. But one of these raiders was in his tree, I'm assuming to get like an aerial view of the property to see if anyone was hiding. And on his way out, whether it's because he was scared or just told to leave, he slipped out of a tree. He slipped out of the tree and his head got stuck in a hole in the tree, and he ended up strangling himself to death. My blurb in the book.

[A]

Whoa.

[B]

My blurb in the book from here because was good for her, which was a quote from Lucille Bluth that he strangled for the tree.

[A]

Oh, good for her. Yeah. Oh, my God. Lucille Bluth. Yeah. Whoa. Okay. Whoa, whoa, Whoa. Oh, whoa. So it's just quite a.

[B]

That's one. That's one death turns into a haunting later. Is that there was a southern. And like, I mean, I'm not trying to like, be like, woo, people died, but also like, you're a southern raider trying to like, Yep, I don't want

[A]

that ghost near me either. You know, like, get off my property. Like, I don't want that ghost around.

[B]

At least he's in the tree. You know what I mean? Like, at least he's not like, in your house.

[A]

I sure hope not.

[B]

So that's one of the major stories of what happened here. Another one is that before Daniel Cowgill live there, Remember, he bought it from the Bates family. So the Bates family, they lived there in the 1820s, and they have the first ghost on record from the 1820s. Like the ghost story is from the 1820s. So the Bates were living here. This is Charl Hilliard's daughter and her husband. Her husband, by the way, here's like his quick little resume. He was a doctor, merchant, lawyer, and a senator. And I'm like, okay, go to bed.

[A]

Same fucking.

[B]

Relax.

[A]

It was probably like $2 to get your license back then.

[B]

Yeah. You had to pass like a 5 multiple choice questionnair to be a doctor.

[A]

And they'd be like, which. What is good for this? Cocaine. Yes.

[B]

Is blood seeping out of you good or bad?

[A]

Leeches. We love them. Yes.

[B]

A traveling minister was staying with them. This traveling minister, his name was Lorenzo, and he was staying in the house. He was going to go downstairs and have breakfast with the baits. And one morning on his way down, he meets a man on the stairs. And when the bait he. I guess I don't know if they spoke to each other or anything like that, but they definitely interacted in some way. And when Lorenzo finishes going downstairs and gets the dining Room. They're setting up for breakfast, and the Bates ask him to pray before they eat. And Lorenzo's like, oh, should I wait for the other guy who I just saw on the stairs? And they're like, who the are you talking about?

[A]

Ah.

[B]

And he basically described the guy he just saw. He rude, said he was an outdated clothing, that he had a wig, a ruffly, puffy shirt, he had britches. And I guess after enough description, Mrs. Bates realized that that was her father, Charles Hilliard III.

[A]

And how dare you call his clothing outdated.

[B]

Literally. What I have next is your blurb from the book, which was, oh, a man with outdated fashion sense. That must be my father. Oh.

[A]

Oh, no, because I was trying to pretend, like, joke. No, I was pretending that that lady said it.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

I was like, what?

[B]

I love that. We wrote a whole book and I didn't know until years later.

[A]

No, I think I was saying, like, she was like, oh, that's. Oh, the frilly. The frilly britches. Oh, that's my dad.

[B]

I literally took it as like, you being like, oh, that must be my

[A]

f. I should have. No, no, no. My dad loves a. I mean, he does love a frilly whatever, but he's more. He's pretty. He's not.

[B]

He strikes me as a man who would own a wig and britches, and I don't know why.

[A]

True.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You never know with that one. But no, I was. Yeah, I was trying to kind of make a joke about that lady being like, oh, that's just my father with his curly old fashioned clothing.

[B]

I love that. Either way it lands.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

You very rarely get a double joke.

[A]

I guess not.

[B]

I mean, people in general. Not just. Not just you, but that's. Okay. Well, I'm. Hey, I learned something. I.

[A]

Listen, we're still learning our own book.

[B]

Congratulations to us. So since then, people still spot Charles and his. His wig and his britches on the stairs and also in the hall. I think the upstairs hall was specifically. But in the hall near the stairs. So I guess they. Something pivotal happened in that moment where he was in his own, like, foyer.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

One former resident said that he. That Charles Hilliard passed by him on the stairs multiple times. Others checked the stairs or other people who ended up living there would regularly check the stairs before using them because they were afraid to actually run into it. But that one former resident who said he would pass by him on the stairs all the time is like. I'm like, how do you just get used to seeing a man you know is dead what do you mean?

[A]

It's so weird. I wonder if, like, you just see him out of the corner of your eye and you're like, whoa, I don't know.

[B]

I guess. But I mean, it sounds like he was just. At least for the first guy, Lorenzo, he was like, it's a straight up man. And we made eye contact and he just stood there long enough for me to not realize he wasn't a real person. You know, if we were kids that lived in that house, we'd be like, no, no, no. People see him and I would just camp out on those stairs.

[A]

We would be setting booby traps. And of course,

[B]

time and time again, we have told you that you have to get Rocket Money. Every person I've talked to that has Rocket Money has gone. Thank God I found Rocket Money. My own mother, who did not know that I that rock. We even work with Rocket Money. My mom didn't know. Goes to show she is not listening to the show. She was like, you've got to try Rocket Money. And I went, yeah, it's been blowing my mind too, dude. I know. It's crazy. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings. I mean, if you are someone like me who just gets a subscription thinking, oh, I'll just get the trial, and then you forget. And then all of a sudden, you're now on this payment plan. There were. It was humiliating to me how astronomical the charges were that I wasn't even aware of all sorts of things that I wasn't even using. And I was spending money month after month after month. And the amount of money that I have saved and spend on things that I really want to spend my money on is all thanks to Rocket Money. You should absolutely try them. I mean, for all you know, you think you know, you how, what your subscriptions are all paying for, you might not know. Rocket Money is going to save you. Let Rocket Money help you reach your financial goals faster. [e-mail] Drink that's RocketMoney.com Drink RocketMoney.com Drink. So those are the two. I haven't gotten to like all the. That they haunt her. All that they do. But the. So the first two stories are the Southern Raider and the Tree. Then we've got Charles Hilliard on the stairs. Another ghost who's there? Loves wine, which is like, this is so interesting. It's literally officially documented in security reports. This ghost that loves wine.

[A]

Security reports. Oh, that's for me too. There are certainly security reports out there that have documented how much I love.

[B]

I'm telling. I mean, like, I'm sure, like in the first draft of our book, it was like I just made a bunch of Christine jokes.

[A]

I'm sure there was plenty of Christine wines. They were these good graphics where they would spill wine all over the pages. And I was like, I never knew if that was my wine that I spilled. It's really perfect. Or like just a graphic.

[B]

The best part about our book was if you're drinking wine while you read it and you spill wine on it, we've pre dirtied it for you so you don't have to feel bad.

[A]

I wanted it to be a coaster because, like, you always need a coaster, you know? And this one's already has rings on it.

[B]

The dream is if we made our book out of corn cork, and then you. Every page was a coaster.

[A]

Well, we also had dreams of making the book a Ouija board. So we've had a lot of dreams. We've had a lot of do this

[B]

book in another lifetime.

[A]

Maybe the best we could do is spill stuff on it.

[B]

So the ghost who loves wine. By the way, our homegirl is this. This woman. She's. Oh, she was governor and lived there for eight years. Her name's Ruth Ann and Minner. Not Minner or Minor.

[A]

Governor.

[B]

Governor Minner, okay. Lived in this house for eight years. She did an interview in 2004. And I don't know if it was fully exactly about the ghosts or like, about her fucking policies, but the ghosts were heavily mentioned in this interview.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And she said the ghosts are absolutely real. Especially this fucking guy who loves wine. She was like, this guy beyond exists. Like, this is a. This is a very real ghost. So it might be Charles Hilliard. It might be. There's another ghost that people see in a Revolutionary War uniform. So it might be him.

[A]

They're all drunks. Who knows? All luscious, all lushes.

[B]

But she made it clear if the wine is left out in this house, it will be drank by someone who is not alive. It like you, there is a leak and they are drinking it up.

[A]

That is bizarre.

[B]

Some residents have intentionally left wine out, which I love that there's just like governor after governor after governor. It's become a thing where they're all trying to booby trap these ghosts with wine in the same.

[A]

Seriously. They're like, I guess I'll appease you.

[B]

It's like, well, the last one said that you like wine. So I guess I'll also put wine out and. Because, you know, every single one of them has heard the rumors, and when they finally become governor and get to move in, they're like, first thing on the agenda is find this ghost.

[A]

You know, they sent their assistant to. To Wawa or whatever to get, like, a box of wine. Be like, just keep the supply coming.

[B]

I. I just, like. It's so funny to me, just that there's just politicians who are just lining up to live in this house. And probably at least one of them was. It was mainly. It's like, I only want to live in the house to see if this ghost.

[A]

But do you think any of them were like, I'm not gonna do that. And then the ghost was like, a

[B]

fucking boring one maybe.

[A]

Or I was like, here's bourbon. And the ghost's like, I don't want bourbon.

[B]

Yeah. They tried to put a real spin on it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Some residents have intentionally left wine out to try and catch the ghost drinking it. I will. I'm not gonna ask you. Now that you are no longer a wine drinker, what is the new thing? Food or wine or anything. Or food or drink or anything. If you were a ghost and someone had to trap you with something, what's your thing now? Like, the people want to know. Christine.

[A]

It's just candy, I think.

[B]

Candy.

[A]

Like, I just love sugar now because it's like, I was so much sugar in my diet, and now it's like, like, oh, that's all gone. So now I just love, like, peanut skittles. Oh, I'm like, in a very, like, chewy candy. So, like, sour gummy worms and stuff like that.

[B]

Okay. That's easy and cheap to try to catch you.

[A]

Then I. Oh, cheese. You didn't say cheese, but that's another one. You could do that.

[B]

Okay. I know you love a charcute.

[A]

I love a shark that honestly just do that.

[B]

So you'd still be in the same circles as the wine drinkers. I imagine you're just finally on my end of it where it's like, everyone's drinking wine. I'm eating the slack salami. Yeah.

[A]

And like, I'll drink something that I'm order a mocktail this time. Yeah.

[B]

Which might I say, Christine, if you're looking for a mocktail, I am currently having a real fix with ginger beer and pineapple juice mixed together.

[A]

Oh, that sounds nice. I'm not usually, like, a huge ginger beer person, but I feel like with pineapple. That actually sounds very refreshing.

[B]

I'll tell you I also don't like ginger beer unless it's pineapple juices involved.

[A]

And if you do a little.

[B]

A little. A little squirt or a little couple, like, jalapeno seeds, and it's sweet and spicy.

[A]

Okay. Hey, I'm into this.

[B]

Do what you need to do.

[A]

Oh, my God. Oh, my God. That sounds so good.

[B]

Okay, so you would be gummy worms or cheese.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

I don't know what I would be, but it'd have to be something carb heavy.

[A]

Yeah. What about, like, chicken pot pie?

[B]

Like, right.

[A]

Like, really heavy on the carbo. Yeah.

[B]

I'm already dead, am I? Like, just a stick of butter will probably do it.

[A]

Get me a. Get a bread bowl. I'm already dead.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Put some Mac and cheese in a bread bowl. Stop being ridiculous.

[B]

So they would, like, leave wine out, hoping to catch this ghost if literally all the way to, like, they would fill decanters, and the whole decanter would be gone. Like, what?

[A]

The.

[B]

The canter would still exist and it. All the wine would be gone by.

[A]

I just wonder, like, how many. Is it one ghost? Are they trying to share? Because I'm like, how much should I be leaving out? Like, do you want all this? Or is it, like, you have to drink however much is out? Like, I don't know.

[B]

Like, are they have. It is in the other realm, Are they having a bunch of, like, are they partying and it's like, 20 people there, or is it someone like me with. But instead of carbs, it's wine, where it's like, I'm already dead. I might as well just be blasted out of my mind.

[A]

Yeah. Just keep it coming.

[B]

I can't leave the house, so.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And also, like, if you're gonna leave me wine, I'm not gonna not accept your offer, you know?

[A]

Right, right. A decanter. Well, don't mind if I do.

[B]

I. Again, I'm sure on. In early versions of this book, there were a lot of jokes about how, like. Like, maybe it wasn't actually any ghosts. It was just, like. Just every governor was, like, sneaking way too much wine and blaming it on a ghost.

[A]

I probably said I was just living in the basement. Although that's kind of spooky.

[B]

Probably, like, Christine just comes out living in the walls.

[A]

Yeah. She heard there's free wine sometimes, like,

[B]

every night because everyone's trying to.

[A]

Every night. Yeah.

[B]

Well, one resident would leave it to cancer filled at night just to test it and wake up in the morning, and it would be gone.

[A]

Fun. It's A waste of wine, I was gonna say.

[B]

Think of the. How much money just in the governor. The governor's budget is seriously just wine. Wine. Wine for the ghost. Instead of, like, on, like, wine for

[A]

the ghost and then what?

[B]

Instead of social services or anything, like, important.

[A]

Seriously.

[B]

Well, the ghost. We. We have to prove the ghost is real first.

[A]

Appease the ghost. Ghost.

[B]

There's an apparition of a man in a wig again. Might be Charles Hillier. Might be another guy. Guy.

[A]

He might be my dad.

[B]

Your father. And he has literally been caught by some people actually sneaking wine in the dining room.

[A]

See? Oh, my God, it's him.

[B]

So it might be him. He's like, if you were all gonna use my house. Wine bottles have literally been found empty in the cellar that nobody has drank, says.

[A]

Oh, so he really is just a lush. I guess.

[B]

He's just. I mean, he lives in that house and lets. You know, I. I do wonder if he's. If wine bottles are empty, I would love to know the labels of which ones are empty. Which ones is he picking? When he has a selection, right?

[A]

Does he, like, go for the, like, the really expensive. Does he know or does he just pick one? You know, like, is he a wine,

[B]

or is he only picking ones that are, like, the year he was born or something?

[A]

Right? Like, is he a snob or not? I don't know.

[B]

And then I would do another test where I'd be like, okay, well, these are the labels that he was. He seemed to like. And I would put those out into cancer versus, like, like, a random.

[A]

Remember when you didn't understand why you were a Virgo rising? That's why is that Virgo rising right now? Like, I'm gonna put this one here and this one here, and then I'm gonna test which one he likes. It's like, well, I would like to science experiment.

[B]

I feel like that would be so interesting to be like, does he keep going back for the same wine or.

[A]

It is interesting. It just makes you very Virgo to me.

[B]

Good to know. I had no idea. So that's another ghost, the wine drinker. Then there's a ghost of a little girl. Maybe she's the wine drinker.

[A]

I was gonna say. Could it be.

[B]

Technically, she's like, 300 years old. She's legal to drink.

[A]

She's like, I'm dead again, like, let me have some.

[B]

She is seen in a red gingham dress, and she's most often by the garden and the reflecting pool outside and then disappears by the hedges. And I Don't know if that means she fades away or, like, runs into the hedges and then you don't ever find her again.

[A]

Or like the Homer Simpson.

[B]

Yes, or. Yes, exactly. She's also been seen in the mansion during parties, but apparently not, like, partying it up. She's more, like, standing in the corner and has, like.

[A]

Like a little kid, like, watching a party or something.

[B]

Yeah. And she's also been seen or felt sorry, tugging on people's clothing, like, to get their attention at the party. She's been seen a lot in the kitchen. This. I remember the governor, her interview about the ghost. This. This was in that interview. She's been seen a lot in the kitchen. She's been seen in the middle of the day by tour guides and fades away moments later after the tour guides are, like, left alone with her in the kitchen. People have seen her peeking around corners, of course, horrifying. People have heard her giggling in empty rooms. And then people get EVPs of a little girl saying things like, play with me. Like, straight out of a horror mov.

[A]

Please.

[B]

Again, there's the man in a revolutionary war uniform. There is actually the ghost of the traveling minister who first saw Charles Hilliard's ghost. He is now also.

[A]

He's like, I know where I'm headed.

[B]

Yeah. He's like, well, now I know it's possible, but he's seen in the library, and apparently he's like, the. The least warm of the ghosts. I guess people have said that they get a really, like, stern vibe from him.

[A]

It's his problem.

[B]

I mean, I'd be stern, too, if I'm a traveling minister, and I clearly didn't, like, make it to heaven. Like, I'm just stuck in this house.

[A]

You are. Imagine traveling. Like, just traveling for work, and you're in a hotel, and somebody tells you when you die, you're gonna be stuck in. In this place for the rest of your life.

[B]

Take a look around.

[A]

Yeah, take a look around this. You're forever God.

[B]

I really. That makes me wonder. I'm like, all of all the places I've been.

[A]

That's horrifying.

[B]

Will I be visiting it in the afterlife?

[A]

Yeah, it's like, welcome back to your college dorm room. No, you know, like, please don't make me haunt that.

[B]

You know how, like, mobsters and, like, every. Like, I don't know about every dad, but certainly my dad. They all people who cosplayed as little mobsters whenever they go to a restaurant, they're like, I have to sit with my back facing the wall, just to make sure that there's no danger. Have you ever heard about this? My dad always said that.

[A]

No.

[B]

And that's. That's like the mobster rule. It's like, I gotta have my back to the wall so I know that nothing's gonna come my way. And I can keep my eye.

[A]

I got clear eyes on everything.

[B]

I feel like I need to start having a little mobster rule for myself. Where every new building I go into, I take a scan and go. That's where I'll haunt if I have to be here. That's where.

[A]

All right, that's my. I call that corner called dibs.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. People also hear the. The raider stuck in the tree who accidentally hanged himself. The irony. They hear him screaming for help. And then my next blurb in the book was another quote from Lucille Bluth that says, I want to cry so bad, but I don't think I can spare the moisture.

[A]

Oh, yeah. You see? Yeah. Good double. Good callback.

[B]

A callback. Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Good callback.

[B]

But, I mean, that's. I mean, luckily, it's someone I don't particularly care for, but either way, like, I can't imagine just, like, walking, like, bringing the groceries in at night and just hearing screaming from a tree.

[A]

Gruesome. Like, from a tree. And then being like, oh, that's just the ghost of the.

[B]

A. Yeah.

[A]

Enslaved person.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Seeker. Well, I don't know what he. What is he called?

[B]

He was a. A raider. A.

[A]

A raider. Oh, for God's sake.

[B]

Yeah, I.

[A]

Give me the chills.

[B]

Yeah. I don't know. That's.

[A]

Give me the crease.

[B]

That's a. Yikes right there. People also hear footsteps. Both intentional and they hear separately, like, heavy boot steps. And then even worse, this is a quote that people hear scampering through the dining room.

[A]

Ew. Scampering. I don't like that in. In the diet because in the walls, it's like, squirrel. Immediate squirrel in the dining room. I don't know.

[B]

Open floor plan of scampering.

[A]

Absolutely not.

[B]

It's always when it's a different type of walking than just normal walking that gets. It's always. Either you're way too slow, you're way too fast, you're way too peppy, you're way too mad.

[A]

The slow is so creepy. Like, slow boot steps. Like, it's bad. It's all bad.

[B]

When there's emotion to the footsteps, that's when I hate it the most.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

The chandelier has been seen swinging. Tobacco is smelled in the library. People hear mumbled voices speaking to you in the cellar.

[A]

Don't go to the cellar.

[B]

People get grabbed and touch or grabbed and shoved. You hear, oh, this is so sad. You can hear the sounds of the rattling chains downstairs, which means someone's probably stuck there. People feel severe cold spots. People see shadow figures throughout the house and they've also figure standing over their bed at night. Furniture rearranges itself. Objects move themselves. Items go missing altogether. Equipment malfunctions. When they do try to go ghost hunting, including fresh batteries dying. We have had that happen before and it's always freaky and inconveniencing. Doors open and close by themselves. Door knobs are seen turning themselves. Doors are seen. This is the craziest one because any door can open and close by itself. But that one person, one security guard said that in the Woodburn mansion, he watched a whole floor of doors, one open and slammed, the next one open and slammed, then the next one open and slam as if someone was going in and out of every room. And that feels a little mocky if I'm a security guard, like, oh, this is what you should be doing.

[A]

Now I'm over here. Now I'm over here. Oh, oh, yeah. Like, I'll do your job for you.

[B]

It's like, yeah, like you're. You're like doing the room checks.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In front of the secure. Oh, that's so creepy. And also it's like, oh, and. And no room check. Room in no room. You're safe.

[A]

Yeah. Cool.

[B]

Cool.

[A]

Great. Awesome.

[B]

The mansion is open to visitors that make an appointment, which I love that you can just like call the Governor and go, I'm coming over.

[A]

Yeah, bring a bottle of wine.

[B]

It's so small town to be like, oh, I was just. I have to go. I have. Where are you off to? Oh, I have to see the Governor.

[A]

I'm popping over to the Governor's place.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, it's. Although it is a. It is a functioning government building. You can make an appointment to go at least to the house. I don't know if you're going to see the Governor. It's kind of like when all the kids in D.C. go on field trips to the White House. Y and you don't actually see anybody

[A]

except, wow, I'm meeting the President.

[B]

That's what I thought. During October, the building also houses paranormal investigations for people or hosts. Paranormal investigations, they've said, which is no real surprise. But in case you're curious, they've said that paranormal activity is the best from 11pm to 4am okay.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

One governor, actually, one time. Just let students come investigate overnight, which I love. This is literally like, oh, I'm gonna go see the governor. He invited me for a sleepover to hunt ghosts, and they said the creepiest thing that happened was they reported a woman in a painting smiling at them all night long.

[A]

What does that mean? Wasn't she.

[B]

I don't know if she was already smiling. I'm imagining it's like one of those old paintings where no one ever smiled because you had to sit still for the.

[A]

And then she just, like, people kept seeing her smiling. I mean, that's spooky.

[B]

Me. I wonder if she just. It was just a permanent smile. In which case it'd be like, yeah, that's just how the painting is. Or if, like, every now and then she would just. She would start stern until she caught your real icon, like, made real eye contact with you and then went, e.

[A]

You know, which would be very frightening. Yes.

[B]

Anyway, that is the Woodburn mansion.

[A]

Remember when I was like. I remember that you said ice cream.

[B]

And I went, I'm about to break your heart because I don't know what the you're talking about.

[A]

No, I was so relieved because we've done the ice cream one. And I was like, I hope this isn't the same one that we've already done. I just remember it being dealt Delaware because of Joe Biden. And I remember that his dessert was like, not ice cream. And I was like, is. And you were like, isn't that his whole thing? Why didn't they make ice cream for Joe Biden?

[B]

Anyway, that was when I covered. It was a haunted. Haunted President's themed restaurant.

[A]

That's what it was.

[B]

And it was. It.

[A]

Was it in Delaware.

[B]

I don't know where it was, but I remember, like you said, you really leaned. You. What's the right word?

[A]

You.

[B]

Your. Your commentary led right into my next whole thing, which was like, I actually looked up all the president's favorite food, and you were like, oh, well, I would think it's like squirrel or something. And I went, don't worry, I checked.

[A]

Oh, thank God. I remember that. That was so good. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, we barely. One day we won't remember it at all. Isn't that the crazy.

[A]

Oh, my God. And then we'll get to get excited about it all over again sometimes. Just thrilling.

[B]

I like to think in the retirement home, someone's gonna play my podcast for me, and I'm gonna go, this sounds. That's really bad. What is this?

[A]

I was like, I was gonna be like, get this, get this one signed to an agent. You know, it's like, that's you idiot.

[B]

Well, I'll let you know. Actually, I won't because I don't think I'll even really be aware of what's happening. But in the event if, if someone's listening and you end up being my nurse one day, oh my God. Give it a play. Give it a play.

[A]

We'll see what happens.

[B]

We'll see what happens.

[A]

You're gonna get have a heart attack. When you hear me shrieking in the background, you're like, not her again. Oh my God. I thought I got r her.

[B]

Currently going through it with my glasses. I've had these glasses for a very, very long time and now it's getting to the point where they are just like a little too flimsy, where I'm being very tender about putting them on my face. Luckily, we are working with Zenny. If you have seen Christine's heart shaped glasses, you know already why I love Zenny. Zenni makes every type of frame you can imagine. They got all sorts of shapes and they are at an incredible price. Price too. Zenny is an online eyewear shop. They have prescription glasses, sunglasses, blue light lenses, all starting at under $30. You go to zenny.com pick a frame, upload your prescription and they ship it to your door. There's no appointment, no store, no upsell at the counter, no awkwardly having to go into the store and trying on a million frames and still not really feeling satisfied because all the frames are more or less exactly the same. With Zenni, there are so many options there. You will absolutely find something in that you love. And they have over 150,000 five star reviews. And if you've never bought glasses online before, Zenni has a virtual try on so you can see exactly how a frame looks on your face before you commit. If your glasses are overdue for a refresh, now is the time. Go to zenni.com podcast and use code podcast15 for 15 off your first order. The style sell out so do not sit on it. That's Z-E-N-N-I.com podcast promo code podcast15. It's summer and a lot of people are looking to spruce up their wardrobe. And depending on what your lifestyle is, maybe you just don't have the time to go shopping. Maybe you don't want to go shopping. I know Allison has never liked going to the mall, but luckily for people like Allison, there is daily look. Daily look is the Number one highest rated premium personal styling service for women with Daily look, you get your own dedicated personal stylist to curate a box of clothes based on your body shape preferences and lifestyle. And this is not an algorithm. These are real personal stylists. Christina told you before. You really do get to work with a stylist to figure out exactly what your taste is and what might look good on you. And not just what might look good on you, but what you'll actually wear. With Daily look, you can get up to 12 premium pieces per box in the comfort of your own home, saving you time and effort. It is a dream come true for people who just do not have the time or care to shop for themselves. How it works is simple. You fill out your style quiz. You know I love a quiz. And including in it you, you mentioned your price and lifestyle preferences. You get up to 12 hand selected items delivered to your home and then you buy what you love and send back the rest. It's lovely. It's time to get your own personal stylist with Daily Look. Head to DailyLook.com to take your style quiz and use code drink for 50 off your first order. Once again, that's dailylook.com for 50 off. And make sure you use our promo code drink so they know that we sent you one last time. Dailylook.com and promo code Drink Drink.

[A]

I wanted to add real quick before I forget, the reason I drink this week, today actually was gonna be because I took Little G to the vet and I was sitting there and the vet comes in and she goes, do you have a podcast by chance? And I was like, shut up. And it'd been a long time, I feel like since anyone said anything like

[B]

that Gio got recognized.

[A]

And she goes, I saw Gio's name on the thing and I looked up your name and was like, that sounds familiar. And I was like, you recognize nice Gio, G. Oh, I know. And then she gave him a bunch of shots and so now she's his worst enemy. But wow, I'm sorry. It's her fault. I didn't do it.

[B]

What a way to butter butter. Like if I got recognized by like someone who's about to draw my blood, for a second I'd forget they were about to take my blood. I'd go.

[A]

And then she really did. She really did just stick the needle in. And then I will say she did a great job and was really sweet. Her name was Marisa or Dr. Hernandez. Thank you for your kind work with Gio. You're so good with him. And also, shout out to your sister Ally, because apparently Ally's the one who. Who showed the podcast. But I just was like, this is so special. It was like 9am and I was like, that's really. I was just like, poor Gio was all anxious, and I was, like, totally, like, taken aback. So anyway, Marisa and Ally, I wrote their names down because I was like, I'm gonna forget.

[B]

Was this. Was this Gio's first time being recognized or did he get recognized?

[A]

He got recognized once in a couple times, actually. The butt curtain got recognized. Like, someone was like, I saw the butt curtain at the dog park from afar. At the dog park.

[B]

Iconic.

[A]

But the name. This is the first time I think the name really has caught someone's attention.

[B]

That's so cute. Hank hasn't yet to be recognized. He's recognized once they recognize me, and then they go, oh, in that tank. But. But he, I don't think has a play as Geo. Geo's an OG he's, you know, and

[A]

he has that feature of that tail that really gets. Gets people wondering.

[B]

He's such a cutie pie, that little Gigi. Where is he? What's he doing right here?

[A]

He already ripped off his little Band aid. Oh, a little Band aid baby.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

I was, like, taking selfies with him at the vet. I'm like, oh, my God.

[B]

Anyway, he's so cute.

[A]

Okay. I wanted to shout that out before yappy hour. I got my coffee situation, and I'm ready to come back to life and do a yappy hour. So go meet us there. Okay. So speaking of World War II. Hi, everybody. Yes. You missed yappy hour, did you? Well, don't worry. We were talking about World War II, so you really did miss out for like, an hour.

[B]

I've.

[A]

Yeah, for a full hour. No, no. We talked about ancestry and, like, the darker sides of ancestry and how I've been uncovering some stuff because I was respectful of my family's wishes to not look into their history until they disowned me. And then I said, well, if I'm not part of the family, I guess I can do whatever I want. So then I kind of went rogue, and I found out some, like, really wild stuff, but I. But I'm kind of like, em. And I talked about, like, hitting walls, where you're like, oh, I really want to know more about this one interesting piece. And then you're like, can't find the missing piece. So we talked about that for a while. But I say, speaking of World War II. Because this story that I'm bringing today also takes place during World War II, which is when something called the Birmingham Blitz was causing massive chaos in Britain. Okay. And there were. There. They were being bombed. People were being displaced. I give you this context to say, like, it was a crazy time that this incident took place. This is the story of Bella in the Witch Elm.

[B]

Couldn't even. I have no clue what you're saying. Ella and the Witch Elm. That sounds like something I would cover.

[A]

I know, I know. It's one I've wanted to cover for ages. I remember Creeps and Crimes got, like, way into it and, like, did an awesome coverage of it. So definitely go listen to that after anybody who wants more. But this is. I've been waiting to cover this for years. It's one that, like, I've meant to cover since the beginning. So.

[B]

Cool. Okay.

[A]

I know. Let's get into it. So we're in Worcestershire. Okay. During World War II.

[B]

You. Okay.

[A]

And there is a Birmingham Blitz. It's causing chaos, displacing people. In other words, it's a bit too easy for someone to be displaced and go missing compared to what it might be like nowadays.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Local police were completely overwhelmed with air raids, civil defense, national security. So missing persons registries were backed up. Right. Like, we're in the middle of war, like, active warfare. There's just too much going on. And because of all that wartime confusion, if someone, for example, was a traveler or had come from out of town, it would be even easier for them to go missing without a trace and never be found again. So the setting for all of this is Hagley Wood. Hagley Wood is a dense private patch of woods on. Get this, Lord Cobham's massive Hagley hall estate near Witchbury Hill.

[B]

That's some. That, like, only exists in England or something.

[A]

Like, they made it up.

[B]

Like, it just sounds like cottage talk. Like, that's just some.

[A]

They made it up, but, like, good on them.

[B]

Like, if there's not a cobblestone in sight, it's a lie.

[A]

Like that you're lie. It's all. It's all fabric. Like, this is. This is the only real place. This is the only real place cobblestones should be allowed to exist.

[B]

I mean, just. It just sounds like cobblestones. Hold on, say it again. Say it again. Just everyone imagine a cobblestone.

[A]

Just imagine, if you will, a cobblestone. The setting for all of this is Hagley Wood, which was a dense private patch of woods on Lord Cobham's massive Hagley hall estate right near Witchbury Hill.

[B]

It's like I heard the horse feet.

[A]

Oh, my God. Wow.

[B]

I'm telling you, like, you have set the scene perfectly, Christine.

[A]

Thank you so much. Okay, so. So this estate, if you will, was heavily patrolled by gamekeepers because it was known for poachers and trespassers to kind of wander onto the land. One afternoon, April 18, 1943, four local teenagers, Robert Hart, Thomas Willits, Bob Farmer, and Fred Payne, snuck onto Lord Cobham's private land. Now, the reason they're doing this, they're hunting for wild bird eggs. Not Faberge eggs.

[B]

Not yet.

[A]

Not yet. Because, of course, at the time, with rations, wartime rations, people were hungry, and so people would go looking for eggs as, like, nourishment, some extra food, or poaching rabbits. And that's why this land, because, you know, Lord Cobham doesn't want you poaching anything on his land.

[B]

I know that.

[A]

You know?

[B]

I know.

[A]

So it's like, patrolled so that people aren't doing this. But of course, these four dumb teenagers decide they're gonna do it. They're looking for. They're desperate, though. They're looking for food. Bob Farmer decides to climb the big witch elm near Witchbury Hill because he figured the hollow trunk would be a great place to find a bird's nest.

[B]

Smart.

[A]

Now, a witch elm. This is a specific type of tree. It's spelled W Y a C H, which elm. It's native to Britain and tends to rot from the inside. And so it leaves deep hollow cavities in the trunk. And so it's known to have a hollow inside once the tree dies.

[B]

Okay, Looks like a tree. Just googled it, everyone. Don't worry. Looks like a tree.

[A]

You've got. You've got the. The report. It just looks like a tree. Okay.

[B]

It looks like a. Like a thick, funky tree. Tree.

[A]

Yeah, it's like a funky tree. But then picture that it's hollow. It hollows on the inside because it rots from the inside. And so then the inside is a great place for animals to burrow and that kind of thing, you know?

[B]

Cool.

[A]

So this is the kind of tree that they're looking in. So Bob Farmer decides to climb up there and look down into the dark hollow. And when he does, he sees something pale and round. He reaches down, thinking it's a nest or an animal skull, but he realizes is it is a human skull that he has picked up. Oh.

[B]

Oh, my God. See that? If that's not the sign for all four of those teenagers to go. We're good. And just leave the property immediately. Crazy.

[A]

Since they were trespassing and poaching illegally, the boys panicked, worrying they'd get in trouble with gatekeepers or cops and vowed secrecy to one another.

[B]

Yeah, that's all you can do.

[A]

That's literally. I mean, four teenage boys, frontal lobes soft as ever.

[B]

And in 1843, where there's no DNA evidence. Are you getting.

[A]

Right, right.

[B]

Call it a night.

[A]

No DNA evidence. They don't even know that is. They don't even know what just happened. Like, they're just looking for bird eggs. Okay.

[B]

Yeah. I'm just hungry. I don't want a single other problem.

[A]

Okay. But the poor Tommy. Tommy, Tommy couldn't. Tommy couldn't keep a secret.

[B]

Tommy. I fudgeing knew it. I knew he was going to be trouble. Okay.

[A]

He's the oldest too, and he just had a conscience. And like, I would be that kid. I can't.

[B]

I mean, it would eat me alive.

[A]

There's no way that, like, there's no way a kid can be like. As much as I say, of course it's what you would do as a teenager. I'm not condoning that. I would say please as a teenager, tell. See something. Say something. Right? And like, thank God top little Tommy did. But I do understand the inclination to be like, whoa. Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Out of my depth. And I'm so young that I can just pretend this never happens.

[B]

It's probably the first real trauma he's ever, ever had.

[A]

Yeah, well, I don't know. You're starving during World War II.

[B]

That's a good point.

[A]

Looking.

[B]

Looking for.

[A]

Looking for eggs on a. The trespassing property.

[B]

That'd be pretty hungry to be looking for eggs in the dirt.

[A]

I would say. Okay, yeah, I would say. But yeah, I mean, I would say this is a pretty significant trauma on a scale of despite the war.

[B]

We'll reverse this must be his second trauma.

[A]

This. Wow. It's only his second major trauma in life. Yeah. So. Okay, this poor kid. Anyway, so they find this skull. They freak out. He pulls it out. He freaks out. The. What had happened is the tree itself had made a perfect natural coffin. Like it. It became this almost hollow space that fit a body perfectly.

[B]

Honestly, science is rock and roll sometimes.

[A]

Right? Like it kept it hidden there for over. By the way, we'll find out. Over a year and a half. Ooh, the skull. Ooh. And like this talk about trauma really. I mean, this really is upsetting. Okay, remember, this kid picked it Up.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The skull still had patches of matted hair attached, some crooked teeth, and a very. Like, a noticeable uneven dental pattern. So they see this skull. I mean, it's out of, like a movie, right? Like something out of a prop. Like a prop out of a movie. So because they were trespassing and poaching illegally, they panicked. Farmer just dropped the skull back into the tree. They made a pact of silence, and they ran home. But Tommy, like I said, was too uneasy, and he told his mom and dad, and they called, wouldn't you know it, the Worcestershire County Constabulary. Can somebody give me a trophy? Thank you.

[B]

That's crazy. Okay, so the constable. You could have just said that.

[A]

You know, I could have, but I could have said whatever I did say.

[B]

Constabulary. That's crazy. That's. I've never heard that word before.

[A]

Constabulary. That's constability.

[B]

Just curious how. Because I. I told you, at the dog park, I'm hosting a spelling bee. I would love to use that word. How is it spelled?

[A]

Oh, of course. C, O, N, S, T, A, B. So con. Stabilize you, Larry. U, L, A, R, Y. It's a classic concept. Stab you, Larry.

[B]

Typical Constabulary.

[A]

Yeah. But also, I want to say it has a red squiggle underneath. So I wouldn't. I would. I would perhaps consult the oxford before

[B]

you do, a little bit out there at the.

[A]

You know where I would be at the judge's booth throwing yoursy fit is what I'd be doing. I would be throwing tables over. I would be doing cartwheels down the aisles.

[B]

Oh, my God. Okay.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Sorry. My face is, like, red. That was so funny. Okay,

[A]

I'm just sweating again. Oh, my God. Constabulary off. Worcestershire. I'm talking to myself. Sorry. Worcestershire. I practiced so hard on the Worcestershire.

[B]

Okay, you killed it.

[A]

Thanks. When the police went to the woods, and so this kid feels so much guilt, and I'm sure this was probably hard for all the kids, but one of them spilled the beans right away. I'm assuming that was gonna happen no matter who it was. Mom and dad call the police and. I'm sorry, the constable. And the constable goes out into the woods, and when they search the tree, as indicated by the kids, they do pull out not only a skull, but a nearly complete human skeleton. Skeleton inside the tree. They also found a gold wedding ring, torn fragments of clothing, a single crepe soled shoe, and a small glass bottle. When they searched the ground outside the tree, they found the bones of a hand scattered on the forest floor and a shin bone buried close to the tree trunk.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

It's weird. They sent all the remains to Birmingham, where a famous pathologist named Professor James Webster did a forensic autops, and he figured out that the body most likely belonged to a short, slender woman who was about 5ft tall. So relatively short. He estimated she was between 35 and 40 years old. And looking at her pelvic bones, he could tell she had given birth to at least one child. He could tell that she had been dead for at least 18 months, which put her time of death in or before October of 1941, which would have been during the wartime craziness. So that's why one of the main theories is that perhaps this was just somebody who was startled by an air. Yeah, airtime siren, you know, a bombing, and ran into the woods and the wrong person.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

Oh, yeah, I will get to that.

[B]

Okay. Yeah, I was gonna say hid and then got stuck.

[A]

Yeah, that. That would be nicer. That would be nicer.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

She had actually died of suffocation, not. Not being stuck, because they found down her throat a tightly packed wad of fabric. Oh, man.

[B]

It was definitely killed.

[A]

Taffeta. Yeah, she was murdered. Some sort of taffeta or something like that. Webster measured the opening of the tree and realized the killer must have put her in there immediately after the murder while the body was still warm. Because if they had waited for rigor mortis to set in, her stiff limbs would have not. Not allowed her to fit into the kind of narrow shape. As for the missing left hand that they had found nearby, Webster and the police concluded that wild animals had chewed off the bones and dragged them out of the tree. Although some people maintain that this has a more maybe ritualistic or witchy explanation. The victim had a really irregular, like I said, dental pattern and a. The jaw was a bit crooked and some missing teeth. And so they thought, like, okay, well, hopefully that will at least help us identify her through dental records. But checking all the local dentists turned up absolutely nothing. And because the wartime registries were such a mess, there was not really, like, a reliable local missing persons report that matched her description. And so the investigation kind of just stalled at first. But then around Christmas in 1944, things took a bizarre turn. Now, remember, her death would have been October 1941. So now we're in Christmas time, 1944. Okay. Cryptic graffiti starts showing up in the area.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And I have a picture for you. Okay. Here's the photo. I'm gonna send this to you. So cryptic graffiti began to show up. I know I know, I know. Oh, it's so creepy. M. Can you read it, please?

[B]

Yeah. So we don't know who wrote this? This just showed up near the area?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Okay. Yuck. Who put Bella down? The witch Elm Hagleywood. So, okay, so now we know her name's Bella. So somebody definitely knows exactly who that person was and that she was hidden there. There.

[A]

So that's what the graffiti said on the same day nearby, by the way, that was written on an empty building on Hayden Hill Road in the town of Old Hill nearby. It was written in 3 inch white chalk block letters. And that was discovered March 30th. There was another one found the same day. Who? And this one, the said Hagley Wood Bella. Then on March 31, they found another one that said, who put Lubella in the witch Elm?

[B]

Okay, so Lubella. Maybe it's just like the longer version of that name.

[A]

Exactly. Okay, so the message had changed a little bit, but it appeared several times in the same handwriting and it was unknown. You know, who this author was and why they were leaving these messages around.

[B]

And immediately I'm curious about like, what is. Like, what do you want out of this? Because you have been, I'm assuming right now it was like it's the murderer themself or someone who witnessed them. Right.

[A]

I would think.

[B]

And my first thought is like, you've gotten away with it for so long and now they have a lot of evidence. Why would you add to that evidence? Unless.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

But then there's the typical. If you're the killer, you have to like run back to the crime scene as soon as are caught.

[A]

Well, it's like, it's like the ego, like the taunting, the police stuff that makes me think like, maybe it's an egomaniac thing, like, oh, I just need the attention or I need to stir the pot and like get some more attention, you know?

[B]

Yeah. Like, this is like really, if I ever had a body and then someone found it, that's when you just absolutely don't make a goddamn peep, let alone tell them exactly the name. And the longer version of that, what's

[A]

also weird is that it was like years later. Right.

[B]

I don't know what to do with this.

[A]

Like, that's weird. Right? So, okay. Yeah, so I mean, I'm. I was like. Let me clarify. No, there's not going to be any clarity, but let me just add more confusion, I guess. Okay, so there were several messages. Hagley Wood, Bella. One said, who put Bella down? The witch Elm Hagley Wood O Just so creepy. But the message that shortened the name from Lubella to Bella and added the location is, is the one that kind of got the public using, calling this unknown victim Bella. Like, we don't even know if that's her real name. We don't know if somebody made that up. We don't know. Like, we don't even necessarily.

[B]

I was so quick to assume that that was actually her. Someone could just be trolling everybody.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, it's. It's weird. According to someone on Reddit, so grain of salt, the original name gave given to the lore was Lubella. And they said they knew from growing up in the area that like their aunt would say Lubella in the witch Elm, not Bella. So, you know, there's at least some account that says Lubella was kind of like the original lore and then it was shortened to Bella because today we it is Bella down the witch Elm. Okay, okay. So the graffiti of course became a massive local phenomenon. Of course. Then it like was copycatted all over the area, the Midlands. It was repeatedly written in white spray paint on something called the Witchbury Obelisk. Because of course this town called Witchbury has an obelisk that's this historic 18th century monument by Witchbury Hill. And in 1999, somebody spray painted who put Bella in the witch Elm. And they spelled witch instead of W, Y, C, H. They wrote it like witchcraft. And that has kind of like furthered. Further.

[B]

Sure. I mean that was just meant to happen eventually.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. The ritualistic kind of witchiness to it. So now nowadays it's often referred to as like the witch Elm instead of the.

[B]

Oh, like all trees in general. Because of that. That.

[A]

No, just the story.

[B]

Oh, okay. I was like, yeah, fine. Like it changed.

[A]

Change.

[B]

The, the. That poor botanist who named it the witch Elm is like, damn it, it's spelled.

[A]

It's like I intentionally used a W or I mean a Y instead of an I. I did that on purpose. Yeah. So it kind of matched like local witchcraft rumors and then that of course like stuck as did the spelling of Bella rather than Lubella. So nobody ever figured out who this artist was. And because they couldn't identify the victim, people started coming up with theories. One of the main theories was that they had found the body of a real German spy named Clara. And her name was Clara Bowerley, a 35 year old German cabaret singer, actress, and unfortunately up there, agent, Nazi intelligence agent and trainer beginning. And how did her name come in here? Well, Clara was actually the lover of an active German spy named Joseph Jacobs. Joseph Jacobs, who had this, like, this sentence. Feels like I'm having some sort of an episode, but it's. I'm just gonna say it. Okay. He had parachuted into Cambridgeshire, been captured and been executed at the Tower of London in August of 1941. So he's a spy and he. That's what happened to him.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

When he was arrested, he had a photo of Clara in his pocket. Because she was his lover, and because she was also a spy, he basically told MI5 that she was a secret agent who was scheduled to parachute into the Midlands on that same mission where he was captured. So theoretically, he's saying Clara parachuted into the Midlands around that time.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And then he was executed at the Tower of London.

[B]

This does feel like a drop ramble or something. And then the Tower of London does make an appearance in this. Interesting.

[A]

Okay, did I say tower? I meant bridge.

[B]

No, I didn't even know parachutes existed in the 1800s. Okay.

[A]

It's not the 1800s.

[B]

Wait, I thought this was 1840. Something, something.

[A]

No, 19. Did I say 1840? No, 1941. It's 1941.

[B]

Sorry. I keep making it 1840 in my head. Sorry.

[A]

Blitzkrieg Bop.

[B]

You literally keep saying 19 in my head. I keep saying 18. Sorry.

[A]

Well, that's. Okay, basically what happened is this one spy. I mean, because it sounds so nuts, but this is really what happened. Okay.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

German spy. I'm gonna say it like the English way, because otherwise I'd trip myself up. This German spy, Joseph Jacobs. Jacobs, he is caught when he's parachuting into Cambridgeshire, which is, like, two hours away from where this witch Elm is. When he's caught, he tells British agents, like, MI5. He tells them, oh, this photo in my pocket, that's my lover, Clara. She's also a secret agent for Germany, for Nazi intelligence, which she was Clara Bower, and that is who's in his pocket. Okay. And she was scheduled to also parachute, but in two hours away into the Midlands area.

[B]

So where she did. Where she did actually.

[A]

Where the witch Elm was and where the body was found. So this is now the connection that's being made here. That already is a lot of, like, weird coincidence that she. And basically his tale was that she landed. She supposedly was supposed to meet him, he was caught, and she was never heard from again.

[B]

So the theory is that she got killed along the way, maybe by, like,

[A]

like the opposition up in something. Yes, yes, yes.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So, yes, keep that in mind, actually, because that. That's Sort of. Kind of the broader picture that starts to develop, actually.

[B]

Okay, so wait, before we go any further, am I still thinking of this as just one of many theories, or is this the standing theory, or do you not watch on me yet?

[A]

It's sort of like they all kind of blend together. I don't know how else to put it. Okay. Yeah, it's. It's sort of. I think that they're all connected in, like, a broader scheme.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I think there's some sort of spy angle here, but I could be totally off. Like, the other theory being that, like, somebody was just in the wrong place at the wrong time during an air raid, and the air raid sirens going off, and we're startled and we're confused and lost and met. Met somebody who harmed them. So, you know, that's also a theory.

[B]

So there is. So Bella is just, like the. The mythical name to the lore, but not actually that we don't find out later that there really was, in fact, a Bella. Because I'm still thought. I'm still thinking about the. The graffiti, and, like, it feels like someone knew her name was Bella, but maybe they were. Maybe this was just, like, baiting people.

[A]

Okay, see, this is exactly why I couldn't give, like, a straight answer on how many theories there are, because listen to this. Clara the spy, okay? Remember her? Who was supposedly supposed to parachute into the Midlands and then was never heard from again. She had actually performed in West Midlands, these music halls for two years before the war. And she actually spoke English with a perfect Birmingham accent. And her audiences. So she's a spy. Right, but so she was, like, really in character. Like, she. That is, like, someone she was able to portray very well. And her audiences in. In England knew her as Clara Bella or Bella.

[B]

Oh, shut the up.

[A]

I know.

[B]

So this was like. It was like either her stage name went, or, like, her. What's it, like, an agent name? Your alias?

[A]

Yeah, something like that.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah. But in 2016, researchers dug into German public archives and completely debunked the theory when they proved that Clara Bauerly actually died of natural causes in a Berlin hospital in December of 1942.

[B]

That adds up an extra layer. Okay.

[A]

And that was before the skeleton in the tree was ever even found. However, I want to say, remember what we were saying about wartime records? And what are you gonna tell me about spies? Like, I don't believe you. You know, I don't know how much am I supposed to believe about spy records being accurate, especially when it comes to, like, Nazis being involved. You know, I don't know. I don't know. I'm just saying. I still find it a bizarre coincidence, all of this if. If it wasn't her.

[B]

It's summer outside and a lot of people are trying to get that close shave so their legs are extra silky. Sm. Unfortunately, when it comes to shaving your legs, a lot of people deal with irritation and red bumps and they feel like the razor isn't really meant for them or it's flimsy, especially, you know, women's products. With the pink tax, a lot of women's products are double the price of men's products. But luckily, when it comes to Harry's, Flamingo came out of that. Basically, the women who helped build Harry's found themselves rolling their eyes when other companies were just shrinking men's razors and making them pay.

[A]

Think.

[B]

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[A]

that we sent you another spy theory that I think that some people claim is like another, a separate theory altogether. But I think kind of goes with this other theory. Like, I think they may be talking about the same person, which is why I said like, maybe to multiple theories, maybe to one big one. In 1953, a journalist and like, keep in mind, this is nine years later, a journalist named Wilfred Byford Jones got a letter from someone using the pen name Anna. And this Anna claimed that Bella down the witch Elm was actually a Dutch woman named Clarabella. I'm sorry about the last name Clarabella.

[B]

I can't wait. I can't wait. I just, whatever it is, I know she was bullied in high school or something or would have been Clara.

[A]

Clarabella Drunkers.

[B]

Drunkers is crazy. But, you know, in high school they called her Clarabella Drunkers like, she was. She. It could be worse. It could be worse. But you could definitely make of fun of that.

[A]

This is, like, the time on beach to Sandy. I couldn't say there was this woman named Dorcas. And I, like, could not, for the life of me say the name out loud because. Just crying, laughing.

[B]

Deirdre had a grandma named Dorcas. And I remember being, like, oddly insensitive about it when I first. It's so rude. But I was like, what? I was like, everyone in this family is talking about Dorcas.

[A]

There's nobody acting about how crazy that name is. Like, it's not okay. You're gaslighting me. It's.

[B]

It's like, oh, Aunt Flatulence. And I'm like, what? Like, I'm like, like. But I. I remember hearing Dorcas, and everyone was talking about it, and I was like, this is a joke, right?

[A]

We're all like, you're punking me. Yeah, I. 100. Yes. 100. And then, by the way, someone wrote in, and they were like, okay, wait. So. No, it. Okay, hold on. No, I forgot it wasn't someone wrote in. That's. My brother would just be so mortified. It was a review, okay, that I brought. And the reviewer was so upset because the tour guide kept making fun of the name Dorcas, but this reviewer had, like, a great aunt named Dorcas, and so they took it really personally. They were like, how dare you? In, like, a Yelp review.

[B]

I mean, I. Like, when I was. When I heard that from Deirdre's family and I made a comment, first of all, they gaslit the out of me and made me think that I was the crazy person, because all them were like, what? It's just a name. And I was like, no, I know. You're right. But I. I think I'm wrong, too.

[A]

No, M's right.

[B]

I was seven, to be fair. But I do think it's. No.

[A]

Like, I've never even heard that name till I was, like, 33. And I literally couldn't say it because I was laughing so hard, I cried.

[B]

I. I does. And I have to assume the. The term dork came from someone named Dorcas. Like, you know when. No. In the office, when they're like, oh, he totally shrewded it. It's like, yeah. I thought they were like, oh, she's a real Dorcas. You know what I'm saying?

[A]

Dorcas is such a good, like, little. Oh, man.

[B]

Man, That. I mean, there's a reason people often choose actively to not use that name anymore.

[A]

I guess so. I guess so. I wonder if Deirdre ever has a daughter. If she'll. She'll say, what do you mean? It's a perfectly nice name.

[B]

I know. Then I'll go, it's beautiful.

[A]

Listen, the world will to say something. Don't worry.

[B]

I mean, I feel like that's how a lot of probably people in the UK probably see the name Fanny. Right.

[A]

I was just thinking that too. So I'm sure there's probably a lot of those instances.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right. So now this Anna claims she knows who Bella is and that she's a Dutch woman named Clarabella Dronkers, the wife of a Dutch spy. Now, this is the letter that Anna wrote to the journalist. Okay, I'm going to read to you. You will never solve the mystery. The one person who could give the answer is now beyond the jurisdiction of earthly courts.

[B]

Jesus. Yeah, I feel like that's a notification I would get on my ancestry.com tree where it'd be like, there's nothing that you'll never find.

[A]

Yeah, you've reached the end. I hope you have had a terrible time. Yeah. He. The only person who could ever give the answer is now beyond the jurisdiction of earthly courts. The affair is closed and involves no witches, black magic, or moonlight rights. The person responsible died insane in 1942, and the victim was Dutch and arrived illegally in England about 1941. 1.

[B]

Anna, respectfully, I feel like this is what your family would tell you so you'd stop looking for your family members. Go, she's gone insane. Don't look any further. You know what I mean?

[A]

Oh, okay. No, so. So actually she was referring to her husband. Oh, I know. Because Anna was actually a woman named Una Mossop. And when she was kind of called out, like they were able to figure out who this was, was they determined that she. The. The. The real story is that her ex husband, Jack Moss up, was a black marketeer, civilian black marketeer who occasionally liked to wear a stolen RAF uniform and run around and cause trouble. And she said that back in late 1941, he went drinking at a pub in Hagley with a Dutch guy named Van Ralty and an unnamed Dutch woman, which would be this Clarabella person. She said the woman got wasted, passed out in the car, and either to. I mean, I'm gonna go with, like, I'm assuming worst possible case scenario because I know men. It says to either teach her a lesson or frighten her or play a prank on her. I'm Assuming she's To a sort of. I mean, this is assault in some way or another. They put her supposedly into the tree, and then she got stuck and died. But it's like, why was there something stuffed down her throat then? You know what I mean? Like, absolutely doesn't even make sense that. Yeah. And. And not long after that, which. This is the part the journalists track down, Jack Mossop had a massive mental breakdown and he had to be institutionalized. So it's like. I mean. And she was using a pen name, so it's like. I don't know. It's kind of crazy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

He was admitted to the Stafford Mental Hospital because he kept seeing hallucinations of a pale woman staring out at him from a tree trunk.

[B]

Oh, my God. Okay. Well, that's. I mean, we'll never know. But that does feel telling a little bit.

[A]

It's weird, right?

[B]

Yeah, it's a weird overlap.

[A]

So modern investigators are pretty skeptical of the story, Even though I find it pretty, like, I don't know, jarring. Mainly because she waited 10 years after his death to say anything. And it doesn't explain how the hand bones got scattered on the ground. But then I'm like, I thought that was an animal. So why are you saying it was something different? I don't get it. I don't know. Like, then what do you think the hand bones. Like, not you. I mean, then what do they think the hand bones are there for? Weird. Then you have, like, the occult side of things. Right. So this came mainly from a famous anthropologist and archaeologist named Dr. Margaret Murray in 1945. And, boy, did she cause quite a stir. She claimed that Bella, the victim in the witch Elm, was actually killed in a ritualistic witchcraft execution. She argued that her hand being cut off was done to create a Hand of Glory Tree, which is like an artifact that was historically, like, a magical object that you would make from a dead criminal's hand. And then burglars would use it as a totem, sort of.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

To put the homeowners to sleep before they robbed them. Hang on. I feel again, like maybe I'm having a stroke. Can I repeat that?

[B]

I feel like. Yeah, but start where you parachute out of the sky, and then you get captured and you die in the Tower of London. But you've got another spider.

[A]

41. But there's also parachute.

[B]

Yeah, this is all a little.

[A]

Okay. Okay.

[B]

I mean, I'm like, is this normal in England? Like, maybe I'm just like, maybe they're just new words to me.

[A]

Yeah, they're like, Fanny is crazy, but this we do all the time. Yeah, yeah. So this anthropologist and archaeologists like concocts this theory that this is witchcraft. Right. And that, I mean, which, like, I, I don't know, I. It feels like a bit of a stretch because if they were creating a hand of glory, why did they leave it there on the forest floor? I don't understand as a.

[B]

It feels like it was important to, to be with you or a place somewhere or.

[A]

It's strange that you would say that and then like it would be there on the ground.

[B]

I feel like anyone, I feel like a lot of people just throwing their hat in on their ideas of what happened.

[A]

I think so too. I think so too. She also said putting a corpse in a hollow tree was a classic occult way to lock away a witch witch's spirit so she couldn't escape or curse her killers. The media of course, loved this theory and they splashed it all over the newspapers and they even linked it to another unsolved local murder of Charles Walton, who was killed in lower Quinton in 1945. And we're like, there's like a spree of ritualistic witch. I mean it's basically like satanic panic, but in the 40s.

[B]

I mean also like, I feel like, let's not forget that it's literally called a witch elm. Like, of course the story was a witch in the witch elm. Elm. That's.

[A]

And the graffiti appearance, I mean it is very creepy. Like it does totally lend itself to like folklore. Yeah.

[B]

If you told 10 year old me, oh, there's a tree called a witch elm, which I've never heard of before, so I have to assume it's the word witch and there was a woman found in there and maybe for some sort of ritual.

[A]

Of course I'm gonna think she's a witch immediately. And like the way, to be fair, the way it was presented also, which, like, I don't know. You think I don't know anything about. I was like, what field? Any of them.

[B]

You were like, you think I don't know. I think you don't know. What? You don't think you don't know.

[A]

It's geometry. I don't know. I could go on and on. The list goes on forever. But like, like farming, agriculture, I don't know. But the theory was that apparently some local people native to this land would put a body in the witch elm to bring about a good harvest. And I'm like, I, is that true? I just feel like we're making shit up Like, I don't know, because it's like, then why didn't we find a bunch of them in trees? Like, what are you talking about?

[B]

I think this. I think, like, there's just too many very out there theories that all of them sound even more ridiculous than if it was just one theory by itself.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't know. I. I want to believe, like, I mean, for some reason, like, a spy going missing and getting murdered is like the most believable of a sudden.

[A]

Exactly. And that's why I'm right.

[B]

Usually that has to be so thrown. I feel like in every other story you've covered, like, them being a spy is like the wackiest thing that could happen.

[A]

Right. And it's almost like, weirder that somebody would just randomly accidentally run into someone in the woods just during. During an air raid. And like, I. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know what's weirder. I honestly. So it's very confusing, but. Yeah. So she basically claimed that this was like a ritualistic thing. And the media, like, ran with this and then said there was like another one, even though the police were like, no, it's wild animals that the hand is missing. In which case I'm like, then why did you dismiss that other theory? But whatever, okay. They were like, it's wild animals for the missing hand. And of course, the witchcraft part, like, caught on and became like, one of the main focal points of the story. Because, like you said, it's. It writes itself like, there's no way.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It wasn't gonna become part of the story. There were a couple other minor theories, like, for example, a Birmingham sex worker who told police that one of her colleagues named Bella, who worked on Hagley Road had vanished in 1941. Like, that, I think makes a lot of sense.

[B]

That makes the most sense so far.

[A]

The most sense. Like, that's considered, like a minor possibility. And I'm like, okay, I guess, yeah,

[B]

let's just gloss over that.

[A]

I guess. So. Another simple theory was that it was just a local woman who, like, somehow got trapped during an air raid and the bomb scared her and she climbed in. Like, like you said earlier, but again with like, the finding the thing stuffed down her throat.

[B]

And that's odd. That tells me immediately that someone. Someone did.

[A]

It's bizarre. Like, I just don't feel like that's.

[B]

It's not like she choked on her own fabric and got scared. So she ran into a tree and then got stuck. That didn't happen.

[A]

Climbed into it, Right? No.

[B]

Or like, she got stuck and decided to try to eat her own fabric to stay alive. That's not. That didn't happen.

[A]

Exactly. I don't think that's it. So I. Exactly. Thank you. I agree.

[B]

Someone did this to her.

[A]

I agree. I agree. So just super, super weird. And like, of course, over the years, people have, like, thrown around different theories and. And none of them quite lead to, like, a satisfying conclusion. The biggest tragedy is that the physical evidence, as in the body, is completely gone. It's missing.

[B]

What?

[A]

Right after the autopsy in 1943, pathologist James Webster sent the bones to his friend.

[B]

Okay. His.

[A]

At the university. At the university of Birmingham for some unofficial tests. What the.

[B]

Either this guy was also a mob guy who keeps his back to the wall when he goes to restaurants and got rid of the body, or can you imagine if he really thought, like, oh, I'm like an amateur who really wants to get into this field, and then he loses a body? That'd be crazy. It's only one of the two. Either he was paid to do it, or it was an accident. Either way, he should feel like.

[A]

I think. What? I think I have, like, a totally other take on it.

[B]

What is it?

[A]

I mean, I think he just. They. They were like. They like the occult theory, I think, and they wanted to keep the body. I think they. Or maybe I think they wanted to keep it just to, like. You know how people just. You know how white men like to just take stuff Just like a trinket.

[B]

Just like a trophy.

[A]

Yes, just like a little trinket.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They love to have a little trinket, Especially when it's a woman's body. So I think maybe he sends it to his friend at the university of Birmingham for some unofficial tests, Whatever the. That means. And then her body, we have no record of it. Disappears. Spanishes.

[B]

You're totally right. Yeah.

[A]

So apparently the skeleton for some time was kept in the Birmingham city police's private museum at their. At their tally ho training center.

[B]

Okay, that's better. This better. Proceed.

[A]

The skeleton was kept at the Birmingham city police's private black museum.

[B]

I don't know what it means.

[A]

Private black museum.

[B]

I.

[A]

At their private museum at their tally ho training center. Until the 1960s or early 70s. But during a big reorganization of police archives, the remains vanished, finished, and nobody knows where they are. So anyway, still nobody knows.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Even though police officially close the review of the case in 2014, people, of course, are still trying to solve it to this day. In 2018, something.

[B]

What oh, my God. Is Dorcas Black of Tally Ho involved?

[A]

I literally wrote these sentences. I'm like, I must have thought them weird at some point, right?

[B]

You did the notes and kind of, like, fell off and, like, just kind

[A]

of like, I must have.

[B]

But I think it's autocorrect.

[A]

It's just how British people are.

[B]

British people are so, like, unintentionally funny.

[A]

Like, what are you doing? Like, listen to this. Tally Ho Training center. By the way, Tally Ho has an exclamation point, and then it says training center. Like, that's important.

[B]

That feels like a kid zone.

[A]

It's like, tally Ho, Tally Ho, pizza and laser tag.

[B]

Exactly. Yeah.

[A]

Okay, so I. Tmtm. Tm. I'm gonna read the sentence again because, really, it just Sounds insane. In 2018, Face Lab at Liverpool.

[B]

What?

[A]

In 2018, Face Lab at Liverpool, John Moore's University used old autopsy photos of the skull to create a digital 3D forensic facial reconstruction of what Bella looked like. And then an artist was able to create a rendering. And so I do also have a picture of, like, what I can send you of what Bella might have looked like today. Now they really want to find any remains that they can. Unfortunately, they've had no luck. Even though in 2023, the BBC launched a massive appeal alongside its podcast the Body in the Tree, which was about Bella and the witch, ump. Asking museums and private collectors to search their storage rooms for the missing bones. Because, like, they're just somewhere, you know, which is crazy. Like, some. Someone just snagged them and also put them somewhere.

[B]

Yeah, you. I mean, there are people who just buy storage. Storage units without even knowing what's in there and.

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

You could accidentally have a body in

[A]

there and go, I aspire to be one of those people.

[B]

I mean, the dream is, like, to just, like, have treasure and the treasure.

[A]

Yeah, Treasure hunting all the time. But, yeah, so they've asked, but nobody can find anything. But if they are able to find the skeleton, modern labs could finally run, like, isotope testing to see where she was from, run DNA to see who she was, if we can even be so lucky. But of course, this legend, whether we discover who she actually is or not, has become, you know, very, very famous. There have been lots of. There have been operas and plays and movies and stories and podcasts and comic books, all sorts of stuff. Even a ballet, I believe. Oh, no, I'm sorry. Contemporary dance piece called Bella. So, yeah, lots of. Lots of beautiful art, but it's just tragic that we don't Know, I also have a picture of the skull, which I. I'm not. I mean, unless you want to see it.

[B]

But, I mean, I'll see it. We don't have to make it public, but I'll.

[A]

Okay, it's. It's just like, disturbing to think, A, this is what these poor kids discovered, but also B, that somebody, like, took this and, like, wanted it as, like a. Like a trophy or something, you know, and. And kept it like that. Just. That just gives me the ick, you know? Okay, well, it's not going to let me.

[B]

Maybe I'll get it in the middle of the night and.

[A]

Oh, my God, like, finally. And it. I'll. I'll click notify anyway just to be evil. Okay, hold on. I'm going to send it so that the bottom is the. Is the skull. And then this is the picture above is the reconstruction right from Face Lab.

[B]

Science is crazy. I kind of like. Like, I kind of call on science sometimes. I'm like, I don't understand how that, like, you must just have put a face up there and just gone, see? And like, I don't know how scientifically you would even be able to.

[A]

Haven't you seen those videos where they, like, take the cartilage and mold it?

[B]

Like, how crazy.

[A]

It's amazing.

[B]

Wow. Okay. Well, that's been. I mean, that's fascinating. Fascinating.

[A]

It's just so sad, you know, that we still don't know.

[B]

Yeah. Do you think I, like, at some point, do you. Kind of a dark question. Do you just give up on some of these cases? Like, because, like, me. Yeah. Well, like, when you think about the theories of it. Because I sit there and I think, like. Like almost a hundred years old, anyone who would know anything about it is gone. Like, I wouldn't. Like, I could never be the. The cop in the department where, like, they do cold cases, because I just. Every day I would be just so discouraged. I just feel like, oh, no.

[A]

I mean, I'm just fortunate that do something new every day. But I definitely believe that the right person just has to have an estate sale. And they're like, here are the bones.

[B]

That's a good point.

[A]

Like, I just. I feel like shit. Like, that happens, you know?

[B]

Yeah. I mean, zodiac killer, like, some. I guess, like, no reason. Golden State, I guess anything's possible. But at some point, I would just. I'm. I, like, I think I get so focused on, like, wanting to figure out, and if I can't within a certain time frame that I'm like, oh, then it Just must not exist. Exist, yeah.

[A]

Does not exist.

[B]

It's just how my, my brain operates. So, man, congrats to the people out there who don't give up. I do.

[A]

No, seriously, because I do. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Well, what a great story, everybody. And thank you. Yeah, I've been wanting to do that one for a long time because, you know, I love an unsolved mystery.

[B]

I love when you do an unsolved mystery.

[A]

Do you love it or do you hate it? You kind of hate it.

[B]

I hate that I never.

[A]

You love to hate it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. There you go.

[B]

We have a. We have a. A bit of a. A, A dance. Me in those cases. Cuz I. I really do. For some reason there's a pinch of me who thinks. Can you imagine if we solved it right now?

[A]

I mean, someone has got to eventually, right?

[B]

So like, what if we came up with the theory that just like nobody else had thought of? I don't know why I think I'm. I would be on that level. But then at the end, by the time. By the time I haven't figured it out, I'm like, oh, well, you did a great job telling it.

[A]

Well, thank you. And ditto.

[B]

Thank you. My. Well, I already. I retold it technically because mine was a. From our book.

[A]

Both. Both tellings were great and my double joke made it even better.

[B]

I thought that was so funny. I love how I didn't.

[A]

And actually I love that like that the double entendre. As you know, I like to say,

[B]

it's so not a good feeling often when people don't get your joke. But it worked when joke works. Either way, it actually, I was like,

[A]

sure, we can take it that way too. Corrected itself.

[B]

Oh my gosh. Oh, man. Well, what are you up to for the rest of the day? Week? What are you doing?

[A]

I gotta get out of here. It's like 90 degrees in here.

[B]

I believe it.

[A]

Sweating. I'm sweating. What are you doing?

[B]

I don't know. I guess I'm just enjoying my last weekend before I have to pack everything up and head on out of here. So I'm going on a bunch of family trips and weddings and I'll be busy. I. For all I know, the next time you see me, I'll be in a hotel. I don't even know if I'm gonna bring microphone just in case. I don't know. We'll see.

[A]

Yes, we're gonna try to record Monday and then.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If not.

[B]

Well, I have. So I, I. No, no, I mean, I have so many trips coming up all back together.

[A]

You might bring it.

[B]

I might just bring it for. For a bunch of reasons, because I have this, then a wedding, then I have another wedding right after. And then from that wedding, I'm treating it as a trip. So I'm gonna stay a couple days. So I think I'm just gonna start bringing my microphone everywhere because I just don't know know, wow, how our schedule look versus traveling. And anyway, it'll be a bit of a headache, but whatever. I think I'm just gonna. I need to buy myself a pelican case and just, like, have like, an

[A]

official folder of all the equipment here to go kit.

[B]

Yes, exactly.

[A]

You can have a go bag. Yeah.

[B]

You know how, like, after we traveled so much, our suitcases, like, we just had double of everything, so we never had to, like, keep packing our toiletries. I think I just need a double microphone. So I've just always got a box with all my working equipment. Instead of thinking about, like, I have to bring this wire and this wire.

[A]

I have two microphones. I bring. I have travel mic. Yeah. What do you think I bring with me? I don't take this giant boom mic off. You used to have a normal boom mic one, and that was your travel one.

[B]

That's true.

[A]

That's your wireless mic.

[B]

That's true. What the happened to that? I don't know. But yeah. So anyway, I. That's what I'm doing. Are you having any fun this weekend?

[A]

Oh, my God, I don't know.

[B]

Well, let us know.

[A]

We'll find out. Blaze is coaching a bunch of Jiu jitsu, so Leona and I are going to be on our own, which means we're going rogue and probably getting ice cream.

[B]

That sounds like the best way to go rogue.

[A]

We're usually just eating ice cream on weekends, like, the whole time.

[B]

Little mommy, daughter date.

[A]

We have a lot of fun.

[B]

I love it. Okay, well, we'll see you guys next week.

[A]

And that's why we drink.

[B]

Welcome to a new era of baseball's great spectacle. The T Mobile Home Run Derby. Live on Netflix. The biggest sluggers in baseball put their talents to the test on All Star Weekend.

[A]

Raw power meets star power.

[B]

Big swagger meets bigger slams. And you don't swing to make contact. You swing to make history. Watch the T Mobile Home Run Derby live on Netflix this Monday, July 13th at 8pm Eastern, 5pm Pacific.

[A]

Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. Now, I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited premium what wireless for $15 a month is back, so I thought it would be fun if we made $15 bills, but it turns out that's very illegal. So there goes my big idea for the commercial. Give it a [e-mail] switch upfront payment of $45 for three months, $90 for six months or $180 for a 12 month plan required $15 per month equivalent taxes and fees Extra initial plan term only greater than 50 gigabytes. Me slow when network is busy. See terms.