E491 Medical Melodrama and a Shark Shanctuary

Summary

Podcast Summary: And That's Why We Drink – Episode 491: Medical Melodrama and a Shark Shanctuary

Hosts: Christine Schiefer & Em Schulz
Date: July 26, 2026
Main Topics: Medical mishaps, sobriety, dog training adventures, the Olive Hill Poltergeist (KY, 1968), and the mysterious true crime story of the Yuba County Five.

1. Episode Overview

This episode explores a mix of personal updates, medical and mental health conversations, a classic poltergeist case from Kentucky, and a chilling true crime mystery from California. Em and Christine blend humor and candor as they share their quirky ailments, complicated pet dynamics, and spooky historical stories—making for an episode that moves seamlessly from comic banter and personal vulnerability to genuinely eerie storytelling.

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2. Key Discussion Points & Insights

A. Banter & Medical "Melodrama" (02:36–21:10)

• Wearable Tech Pep Talks: Christine's smartwatch congratulates her for standing while she’s visibly sitting. Laughter about wearable tech’s random morale boosts.
• Ongoing Ailments: Em's voice is off (possible laryngitis), Christine's appetite is missing since quitting drinking—causing late-night Cheez-It binges and a hunt for liquid calories. Christine jokes about Googling "do I have a tapeworm" and the possibility of "sudden onset" food aversions.
  • Quote: "If anybody knows why I can't eat until like, 5pm and then I'm like, suddenly ravenous... it's really weird." (07:16 – Christine)
• Sobriety Update: Christine reflects on her journey ("the hardest part was deciding and committing"), missing her 100-day sober milestone, and using non-alcoholic beers as a coping strategy.
  • Quote: "The hardest part I think was deciding it and committing to it. Because then I was like, alright, doors are closed." (10:09 – Christine)
• Pet Adventures: Em discusses Hank (their Rottweiler) acting up at the dog park, being reactive, getting training, and learning dog group dynamics. Christine shares Gio’s habit of waking her for 2am snacks.

B. Listener Engagement & Tangential Conversations (21:10–22:57)

• Approaching the 500th Episode: The hosts express excitement and anxiety, referencing inside jokes about past topics (e.g., “Don’t do tapeworms for 500!”).
• "Drink" Reasons: The hosts share "why they drink" that week, ranging from bizarre dietary problems to challenging pets.

C. Story 1: The Olive Hill Poltergeist – Em (22:57–58:41)

[Begins at 22:57]

Case Recap

• Setting: Olive Hill, Kentucky, 1968. Elderly couple John and Aura Callahan start experiencing classic poltergeist activity—mirrors, dishes, and even their washing machine shattering or making banging noises.
• Iconic Moment: The picture of Jesus above the couch—"Christ is the head of this house"—cracks on its own, triggering a spree of escalating paranormal phenomena.
  • Quote: "If you wanted to start a horror movie, start with a picture of Jesus." (24:03 – Em)

Patterns and Phenomena (24:38–28:12)

• Objects break in similar patterns—as if shot "in the center and splintered outward."
• The Callahans flee to another nearby home, but the chaos follows: objects fly, cups levitate, furniture moves itself.
• Notable: A plastic cup stack slowly floats from the fridge to the floor before flying across the room—creeping out both the hosts and the family.

Investigations (40:02–58:41)

• The case draws the attention of Morehead State University's Society for Investigation of Supernatural Phenomena (SISP) and other prominent paranormal researchers like William "Billy" Roll.
• Investigators zero in on 12-year-old grandson Roger, present for most phenomena. He seems to predict activity and is central to many incidents (180 of 200 documented).
• Researchers theorize Roger is at the core via "Recurrent Spontaneous Psychokinesis" (RSPK)—unintentionally causing these events due to pubescent psychic energy.
• Activity ceases after the family moves out of Olive Hill, which then gets a haunted reputation.

Notable Quotes:

• "He would say, 'Something's about to happen,' and then it would." (47:17 – Em)
• "After this, Billy Roll has stated it's one of the most authentic cases he's ever seen." (58:28 – Em)

D. Story 2: The Yuba County Five – Christine (63:12–109:00)

[Begins at 63:12]

Case Recap

• Setting: February 1978, California. Five neurodivergent young men ("the boys") disappear en route home after a basketball game.
• Discovery: Their car is found 70 miles off-course in a snowy national forest, in perfect working order, with food wrappers inside but no trace of the boys.

The Search and Tragic Outcome (73:24–108:10)

• Bodies Found: Eventually, four are found—two near the car from hypothermia, one in a well-supplied ranger trailer (Ted Weir), starved and frostbitten but surrounded by untouched food, blankets, propane, and matches; one (Jack Hewitt) is found after his father discovers his remains on the search.
• Fifth Member (Gary Matthias): Never found; theories range from foul play to wandering off and succumbing to the elements.

Unexplained Details and Theories

• The state of the car and trailer suggest deliberate, careful decisions—yet irrational choices led to tragedy.
• Hints of a woman with a baby: An eyewitness describes seeing "five men and a woman with a baby" on the road that night.
• Possible contributions from psychological distress, schizophrenia (in Gary), disorientation, or even third-party involvement (the "woman with a baby" theory).

Notable Quotes:

• "This trailer was... equipped to the gills to keep people alive. Food, supplies, propane. And none of it was used." (78:31 – Christine)
• "It's been simplified to 'they just didn't know how to do anything,' but it's not that. Something happened." (108:38 – Christine)

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3. Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote/Description | |-----------|------------|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 07:16 | Christine | "If anybody knows why I can't eat until like, 5pm... it's really weird." | | 10:09 | Christine | "The hardest part I think was deciding it and committing to it... after a few months I'm not having any cravings except that one time for the beer." | | 24:03 | Em | "If you wanted to start a horror movie, start with a picture of Jesus." | | 34:12 | Em | "Some items swirled around and then landed back in their original spot." | | 47:17 | Em | "He would say, 'Something's about to happen,' and then it would." | | 58:28 | Em | "After this, Billy Roll... it's one of the most authentic cases he's ever seen." | | 78:31 | Christine | "This trailer was... equipped to the gills to keep people alive... and none of it was used." | | 108:38 | Christine | "It's been simplified to 'they just didn't know how to do anything,' but it's not that. Something happened." |

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4. Timestamps for Major Segments

• 02:36: Hosts riff on tech pep talks, health problems, and food aversions
• 08:43: Christine updates on sobriety journey
• 12:30: Pet drama and why they "drink" this week
• 22:57: Olive Hill Poltergeist story begins (Em)
• 40:02: Poltergeist investigation details (paranormal club, psychokinesis theory)
• 58:41: End of Olive Hill story, segue to next mystery
• 63:12: Yuba County Five story begins (Christine)
• 73:24: The discovery of the abandoned car
• 77:44: Discovery of Ted Weir’s body and the bizarre trailer findings
• 90:04: Joe Shones’ account: "Five men and a woman with a baby"
• 108:10: Theorizing what really happened & final thoughts

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5. Tone & Language

• Warm, candid, vulnerable, a little irreverent—full of relatable tangents and dark humor even during the most chilling accounts.
• Hosts are transparent about the imperfect information from vintage cases, careful with mental health topics, and supportive of each other’s quirks and health travails.

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6. For New Listeners

This episode is quintessential "And That's Why We Drink": equal parts heartfelt, hilarious, and haunting. The hosts’ openness about personal struggles invites empathy, while their detailed, skeptical-yet-spooky retelling of the Olive Hill poltergeist and Yuba County Five mysteries delivers top-tier true crime and paranormal analysis. You’ll laugh, get goosebumps, and maybe Google "signs you have a tapeworm."

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Why do they drink, this week?
"Because I can't get calories except through candy, Cheez I’ts, and smoothies." (12:34)
"Because Hank’s dog training is going to give me a headache, but anything for him." (18:43)
"And that's why we drink!" (114:55)

Transcript

[Christine]

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[Emma]

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[Christine]

Nice.

[Emma]

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[Christine]

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[Emma]

So order more pizza. The math demands it.

[Christine]

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[Emma]

today's episode is sponsored by the ASPCA Pet Health Insurance Program. As a frequent goer of the dog park, I have seen some scary things happen at the dog park. Luckily not to my dog. Although very recently we had our first scare. He ended up stepping on a bee and got stung. But I was absolutely panicked. As a first time dog parent who has absolutely infantilized my little puppy dog in a moment like that, you really are thankful that you have your pet insurance. The ASPCA Pet Health Insurance Program offers customizable accident and illness plans that can fit your budget, your lifestyle and even your pet's particular quirks. Like if he enjoys stepping on bees and horrifying their parents. Because let's be honest, that bills can add up fast. All we ever do at the dog park is talk about how expensive our dogs are. This will help you in the long run. ASPCA Pet Health Insurance has been around for almost 30 years and has covered over a million pets. And when it's time to submit a claim, it's easy. Just use their app and receive reimbursement for eligible vet bills directly into your bank account so you can get back to focusing on what really matters your pet, my little hankies and to Explore coverage, visit aspcapetinsurance.com Drink that's aspcapetinsurance.Com Drink one more time. Again, that's aspcapetinsura.com Drink. This is a paid advertisement. Insurance is underwritten by either Independence American Insurance Company or United States Fire Insurance Company and produced by PTZ Insurance Agency Ltd. The ASPCA is not an insurer and is not engaged in the business of insurance.

[Christine]

My watch just said, you've achieved. You've reached your stand goal. And I'm, like, very actively sitting on camera. There's like, visible proof that I'm not standing. And my watch just said, you. You've done it.

[Emma]

Your phone, your watch is like, you go, girl.

[Christine]

Yeah, I think sometimes it's just like, been prompted to give me little, like, pep talks.

[Emma]

That's. Honestly, maybe that's why I need to start wearing a watch. Just to have some wearable, nice, wearable

[Christine]

tech to just improve, boost morale, you know?

[Emma]

Christine, what are you doing this? It's Monday. I. Yes, everybody. Obviously something's wrong with my voice, but we're.

[Christine]

I don't notice it anymore. I feel like I heard it at first and now it's, like, gone for me.

[Emma]

I can notice it.

[Christine]

I. Yeah, I think it's probably just me that's having the. The immediate warming to the voice, but I think, like, I don't know, I think people will like it.

[Emma]

Thank you. I'm just. I. We might as well address it before everyone's like, are you sick? I don't know what I am, but this just began like two days ago. A day ago. And it's not ending, so we're all just taking it for a ride.

[Christine]

So, yeah, we're all just going to see what. See where it takes us, you know?

[Emma]

Yeah, yeah.

[Christine]

Where the wind takes us. Where your breath takes us.

[Emma]

Oh, yes. My. My breath. That's right.

[Christine]

This must be nice.

[Emma]

Let's talk about my breath.

[Christine]

Well, are you drinking anything? Because you should be lubricating that thro. If you do have this laryngitis you speak of. Not that I've ever had. I clearly don't know anything about laryngitis because I went, oh, no, doesn't that hurt? And Em said, no, it doesn't hurt.

[Emma]

I think my understanding is that laryngitis is just like the fancy word for you're losing your voice. And bronchitis is when you're like, coughing, which leads to you losing your voice.

[Christine]

I mean, I believe you, so I clearly don't know much of anything. But what are you licking?

[Emma]

Well, first you mentioned my breath, and I thought I should show you my licking.

[Christine]

Well, you went, I didn't know that I would just kind of get. That wasn't meant to be like an alley oop into something worse. It was meant to be more like, you know what? We've reached the edge now. Let's come back.

[Emma]

Don't even something worse. I'm still not over you not taking care of my skeleton when I'm gone. That's.

[Christine]

I literally posted that. And I was like, am I really the asshole? And then people were like, yes. And I was like, oh, were they really?

[Emma]

Okay, people are.

[Christine]

Myself.

[Emma]

It was.

[Christine]

It was definitely split, but I was cracking up because people were like, I mean, yeah, kind of. You're an asshole if you won't touch your friend's skeleton. And I was like, if my dying wish all live. Okay. Like, no, we're not getting into this again because then we're going to get, you know. You know. All I'm saying is, you know how your co host gets when. When you bring up touching skeletons.

[Emma]

You know. How I'm saying is, if it were your dying request, there's very few things

[Christine]

but, like, what if I said my dying request was to, like, shoot a puppy?

[Emma]

Oh,

[Christine]

saying like, why would you say done? Like, why on earth would you say done when I just said the world is my oyster? I can say the worst possible thing. I was going between the Rolodex of join isis. Like, I had all these things and you said done, and before I could even speak spit one out.

[Emma]

I think in terms of, like, the. The creepy crawly stuff, I would do most things for you, but if I had to commit murder, I don't know. That's a. It depends on if it's a puppy or like, another murderer.

[Christine]

You've joined ISIS undercover. Sorry. Okay, I'm gonna stop talking about isis. Yeah, it's funny. Funny goes there.

[Emma]

I'm drinking. I'm drinking three different things. My ADHD got the better of me today.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Emma]

I'm drink water. I'm drinking. Oh. The thing I was licking was my. I have a London fog, but the place that I got it from had like a cold foam on top.

[Christine]

So I was say they had a cold. And I was like, they just don't want, like that. They just don't want you coming back. That's all.

[Emma]

No, it had like a foam on

[Christine]

top of it, so I love a little cold foam. Oh, it's so good.

[Emma]

It was a vanilla cold foam.

[Christine]

Thanks for letting us watch you lick that off the lid. It was really nice.

[Emma]

You're welcome. And the third one is a protein power drink thing. Just because I'm Hungry and I need to fill the tum.

[Christine]

Yeah, that's kind of what I've got here. I've got like a smoothie again, but it's like I've just not had, like, an appetite very much, so I'm trying to get my calories in, like, smoothie form lately.

[Emma]

I think it's.

[Christine]

When I stopped drinking, it was like I just lost my appetite for everything. It was so weird, Interesting. And I still haven't make you hungry? Kind of. I mean, I don't know, I. I think I was just in such a rhythm, like a very unhealthy rhythm, that like, I had a system going. And then maybe. But also I was googling, like in the middle of the night on incognito, like, signs you have a tapeworm. So I don't know, I feel like I'm. I'm. I'm all over the place. But yeah, if. If anybody could maybe diagnose. Nope, don't do that. I mean, I mean, for fun.

[Emma]

Why not?

[Christine]

I mean, for entertainment purposes only. If anybody knows why. I can't eat until like, 5pm and then I'm like, suddenly ravenous. But, like, only for liquid foods. It's really weird. I can't.

[Emma]

Oh, that's interesting.

[Christine]

Aversion to solid foods. And it was like, you're infant. And I was like, no, no, me, me.

[Emma]

That is interesting.

[Christine]

And like, there, there are, you know, situations where you have sensory issues or things like that that go into adulthood. But I'm like, what about, like, sudden onset? Like, it's not like I've never liked to eat food. It's just suddenly I'm very, like, averse to, like. It makes me ill to even think about. So I don't know what that's about. And it's not like I'm like, losing a bunch of weight. It's just like this weird balance. And then at night I get really hungry and I'll just, like, snack on, like, nuts. And I'm trying to, like, eat actually nutritious foods, which is why I order these smoothies. But yeah, it's the weirdest thing. So anyway, I should probably go to the doctor.

[Emma]

Yeah, good luck.

[Christine]

I don't know who has time for that. No, I will use Zoc Dog. I promise everyone right now I'm going to use Octoc. And there's no. That ad is not even in this episode. But it is true. And I. Because I'm not going to be calm, calling anybody. Let's be for real.

[Emma]

A lot of mysterious ailments. Going on over here today.

[Christine]

Yeah. Wow. We're effed up.

[Emma]

Yeah, something's going on.

[Christine]

We're always kind of effed up. It's been a while since we've had like melodrama regard. Medical melodrama. I'm wearing my TM bracelet. I knew it. I wore my TM bracelet and I said, today we're going to TM something. I betcha. I betcha you nailed it. We did nailed it.

[Emma]

You nailed it. I. Well, if you're comfortable talking about it just because you mentioned it. How are, how is your journey, your sober journey? Are you having a thank you for asking? It's only if you want to talk about it.

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah, it's. It's. It's been like something I don't really think about. Which is the most shocking. Yeah, it was the day that I realized I'd stopped checking the days that I was like, oh my God. And what day did it get to

[Emma]

before you stopped counting the days?

[Christine]

I think. Well, remember it was on air with you that I was like, I forget. And you were like, you don't know what like your hundred day is or something. And I was like, nope. And then I missed it. So it was like in the 80s or 90s, so it took a couple months. The other day was the first time that I got really down because I passed like something and it had like beer. I was having a really, really bad day and I saw like these like beers or something and I was like, I would literally do. I would touch m skeleton for a beer.

[Emma]

Finally something. We found what it would take.

[Christine]

I would break my sobriety for nice cold beer for a. I would do that for you just for that note. But in that moment I was like, it's really hard because in that moment you're like, what's wrong with me? Like, you know, and then it's like, hey, it's chill. I got home, I have like some non alcoholic beers, took a few sips, was over it, you know. But in the moment, like your nervous system is like freaking out and is like, it's the only thing that'll fix it, you know, and you just kind of have to learn to like sit with discomfort, which is like my least favorite thing. And apparently the thing that karmically I'm meant to learn the most is to just sit in the discomfort of change and of life. I don't know. It is. So I'm, you know, it's okay, it's going okay. And I'm, I'm very pleased that that I've connected with some people. If you've messaged me on or DM me, I haven't. I've gone through some and occasionally I'll open it and go through a few. But a couple people have messaged. Well, a lot of people have messaged him and really kind and supportive but I just have barely the bandwidth to get myself to a doctor and eat, eat anything for breakfast. So yeah, I'm sorry that I'm not responding but I'm so proud of everybody else too who's like, you know what? I was looking for a sign. And then you were like, hey, if you're looking for a sign, here's your sign. There were a couple people who said that and I was like, that's so meaningful. You know, just that alone. So anyway, but thank you for asking. It's been good in that, like it's hard. It was hard. The hardest part I think was deciding it and committing to it. Because then I was like, I can't go. But it's like it was this weird mental block where I was like, all right, doors are closed. But yeah, after a few months I'm not having any cravings except that one time for the beer and they make really good non alcoholic beers. So like that really solves that for me. But yeah.

[Emma]

What are you drinking today?

[Christine]

I have this smoothie with like dates. I know we discussed that. Dates and peanut. But like very caloric things to try.

[Emma]

You're like, I'm just trying to put anything in my body at this point.

[Christine]

I like just want to eat. Like sometimes Gio and I just eat cheez. Its at 2 in the morning so I'm like, I haven't eaten and I'm so hungry. That's really effed up. I'm sorry. My hormones I think.

[Emma]

I don't know.

[Christine]

I'm all over the place. I need to see a doctor.

[Emma]

I'm aware it sounds precious though, just the two of you at 2 in the morning. Just.

[Christine]

It is.

[Emma]

Some things never change.

[Christine]

We have a lot of moments that. Yeah, exactly. That I'm like. That are precious but also they're just like routine.

[Emma]

Does he just wake you up at 2am now for your cheez it run?

[Christine]

He literally Two nights in a row has woken me up between the hours of 1 and 2am so thank you for asking. He has and I don't think I realize why. I think he also has changed food so I think he has to go potty. But like also now I'm realizing it is when I start Snacking when he wakes me up. So maybe that's. Maybe we're pavloving each other, you know?

[Emma]

Sure, sure.

[Christine]

Oh, no. Oh, it happens.

[Emma]

Do you have a reason why you drink?

[Christine]

Probably because, like, I can't get any calories except through candy, Cheez its and smoothies.

[Emma]

That's a good reason.

[Christine]

Thanks.

[Emma]

That's a very good reason.

[Christine]

I mean, it's better than, oh, I saw you. My food teeth. It's better than wine, right? All my calories for wine. But maybe that's why. Maybe my body's like, where are normal calories?

[Emma]

You know, I mean, it does sound like you used to get your. Your calories from a liquid. And I are like, let's do that again.

[Christine]

True. Like, it's just. Yeah, that's a good point.

[Emma]

Why do I drink?

[Christine]

I. Oh, because I have a tapeworm. That's why I drink. Because I've gone to the most extreme WebMD middle of the night option.

[Emma]

I would like to know more about your tapeworm.

[Christine]

Thanks.

[Emma]

I mean, I know so far we don't know anything, but if there's an update, I sure would like to hear

[Christine]

it on whether it exists or not. Well, see, here's the dangerous thing. My brother joked, quote unquote, for years about having a tumor in his brain. And then he literally had a tumor in his brain. Whoops. And so it's sort of like self fulfilling prophecy. Or he just like medically knew that that was there. I don't know.

[Emma]

That's so weird. I also, I have friends who also recently discovered that they have tumors on their brain.

[Christine]

Was it on their pituitary?

[Emma]

I don't know where it was.

[Christine]

That's where his is, which also is his third eye. And I was like, oh my God. And he's like, don't fucking start with me. And I was like, you're right.

[Emma]

Oh my God. No, mine was. Is he okay, by the way?

[Christine]

No.

[Emma]

Okay.

[Christine]

I mean, he's just trying to find a doctor who will look at it. And it's like, nope, it's been years. It's been. He found out actually, when I was in Egypt, so. Well, yeah, almost a year.

[Emma]

That's horrifying.

[Christine]

Yeah, it is horrifying. And I'm like. And nobody will do anything about it. It pisses me right off.

[Emma]

I. My, my friend, who is also dealing with something similar. We only call each other when something bad's happening. And so when I saw her phone ringing, I was like, literally I answered it and I went, what happened? And she went, brain Tumor. And I went, oh, okay.

[Christine]

Yeah. Take a guess.

[Emma]

Apparently hers. I don't know how science works, but I guess just by looking at it through her skull, they can tell it's benign. That I would. I don't know how that works, but apparently hers is okay, so hopefully his is okay too.

[Christine]

I think it depends too, like, how big it is.

[Emma]

Sure.

[Christine]

Yeah. His is pretty small, but they said it could be affecting hormones. Cuz pituitary Gl is for your hormones.

[Emma]

Interesting.

[Christine]

So. And he's, you know, so anyway, I don't want to put air. All his medical stuff, but this is stuff he's already mentioned on Be She Sandy, so.

[Emma]

Well, all right, well, I'll send out a little like, yeah. Manifesting good vibes to him.

[Christine]

Meanwhile, I'm like, I have a tapeworm. I'm like, no, you don't, Christine.

[Emma]

Yeah. At this point, don't complain. You have a tapeworm. It's okay. You know what I'm saying?

[Christine]

I don't even think I have a tape where I'm making that up. I'm literally inventing that.

[Emma]

Yeah. But for the story, I'm gonna need people to know that it's fully an existing tapeworm.

[Christine]

It's probably exists. I feel like maybe 9ft at least maybe. Don't say that now. I'm gonna get freaked out.

[Emma]

Coiled. Just coiled. I'm kidding. I'm kidding.

[Christine]

I'm kidding.

[Emma]

Up.

[Christine]

I talk about eyeballs and belly buttons. If you don't shut up.

[Emma]

That's a fair. That's a fair threat.

[Christine]

I know your weaknesses. If it helps, I'm the toenail murderer.

[Emma]

The cuticle shredder. Yeah.

[Christine]

Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

[Emma]

I hold my fingers.

[Christine]

Belly button.

[Emma]

If it helps. I'm constantly making fun of Allison and saying that I think she has worms just because anytime there's a stomach trouble, I'm just like, why would that help?

[Christine]

A and B, explain yourself, please.

[Emma]

They are not alone. That there's. Everyone's got a worm.

[Christine]

I have worm. Okay. You. You have a lovely way of words. You're such a words. Don't worry. You and Allison both have worms. That is not okay. Sure. Yeah.

[Emma]

Every time I have tummy troubles, I blame the worms, even though I don't think so. Gross. So you could just blame the worms. Anyway, where are we?

[Christine]

Oh.

[Emma]

Oh. I was gonna say, the reason I drink is because Hank is. I know. It's delayed, everybody. Don't yell at me. He is in training now.

[Christine]

Oh.

[Emma]

And because he's been a bit of a bad boy Lately.

[Christine]

What did he do?

[Emma]

Nothing like violent, but he is reactive. And at the dog park, he is like, he. In. At the dog park in general, he's a big barker, but, like, to a point where it's a problem.

[Christine]

Like, he's like, in the face.

[Emma]

Like, he's like. His idea of trying to get the dogs to play with him is to bark and lunge at them.

[Christine]

Oh, yeah, yeah, I know Geo does that, but he's small, so it's, like, less upsetting.

[Emma]

Yeah, but Hank is a rottweiler and he's a small dog. You know what I'm saying?

[Christine]

Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, right? Like, roles reverse. Not. Not probably not good.

[Emma]

Not cute. I mean, so luckily he has his own little group of friends where, like, I think it's, like, it's helpful and bad that he learned from some of the dogs there who loved her roughhouse. Yeah, he learned that that was acceptable. So now he tries to do.

[Christine]

Taking Geo to the dog park because I was like, well, he plays with some dogs, and then some get too violent. It's just like, I couldn't trust him anymore. Not him, the dogs. I just was like, it's not working.

[Emma]

Well, I'm. I'm very lucky that, like, the people that I. I go there all the. All the time at the same time. So everyone who has, like, small dogs, like, they all know that Hank is, like, not a threat. And, like, I can literally hear at the. On the other side of the park, I'll hear him, like, bark and lunge at another dog. And other Hank owners go, hank, stop it.

[Christine]

Cut it out, Hank.

[Emma]

Like, I know nobody's worried, but I'm worried about the day when we're in a new environment and that happens.

[Christine]

Or somebody brings a new dog.

[Emma]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And he's also. Because I. I was taking him to the small, intimate dog park when he was freaked out about everything, and then that's where he ended up making his friends. Now we still go there, and he's not. He's not the only big dog there. There's. There's other big, brave dogs there that just get along better with small dogs. And I think I accidentally tricked him into thinking he's a small dog because now anytime there's a dog his size or bigger, he, like, doesn't know what to do with it and starts, like, barking and won't shut the up. And, like. Like, I think he just doesn't. So he has, like, a size preference when it comes to dogs. And anyway, so we're working on that. For the dog park. But then Allison, I do the dog park. Allison walks him. She's got her own whole list of things that she wants to work on with him and. But it's a lot.

[Christine]

She'll be good at that too. You both will be very good at that.

[Emma]

I feel like, like, yeah, we had our first session yesterday and he's very smart. I know it'll be fine. But I'm just like, ugh. This seems like it's gonna be like a long road ahead because it's just a lot of little things that we want to correct. Anyway, so anyway, I drink because it just feels like it's gonna be a bit of a headache, but anything for him, I guess. So.

[Christine]

Your baby.

[Emma]

That's all I have to say to you, except for my story.

[Christine]

I love when you find a product that's like, you can tell is made by women who understand the female body structure. And when they're making shapewear, they're not like, well, it's just a corset from 1700, right? Like, no, they make it. Not only does it actually not roll and it fits really well. It also is like, cute, I dare say, like, it has this crossover, like, little mesh panel and it like looks good for it's shapewear and it actually works. So anyway, I wear them to weddings. I really do like them a lot. And then when I found out they're an independent female founded brand, I was like, no wonder I like it so much.

[Emma]

And Honey Love has a lot of options, including the Cloud embrace bra. It's this modern wireless T shirt bra with sturdy, lightly padded foam cups. So in case you're someone who does not like underwire, I don't know many people who do. But now you get to have a wireless option and the style is bound to sell out again. So don't wait to try it.

[Christine]

Yeah. Honey Love bras are supportive and wire free. It's of course like high tech situations. Okay. They lift your tatas without underwire and that's what you deserve. Okay. A great bras foundation for every outfit. So is good shapewear if you're dressing up, you know, so just look into it. Treat yourself to the most advanced bras and shapewear on the market. Use our exclusive link to save 20% off Honey Love at honeylove.com drink.

[Emma]

That's honeylove.com/drink. And after you check out, they'll ask where you heard about them. So please support our show and tell them that we sent you experience the new standard and comfort and support with honey love. I found a good one for you today.

[Christine]

Thank God.

[Emma]

I know.

[Christine]

If it was a bad one, I would have just hung up.

[Emma]

Well, it's just so hard to find the solid, solid ones now. I gotta spread them out. I gotta make them really count. And this. This is not that the other ones are bad, but, like, when I tell you the topic today, you'll know why. Because almost 500 episodes, Christine, it's.

[Christine]

I cannot believe it.

[Emma]

Crazy.

[Christine]

Also, 491. My lucky numbers.

[Emma]

Oh, happy 491.

[Christine]

Thank you so much. Okay. It feels nice. I have a. I have a wild one for you, too.

[Emma]

So look at us.

[Christine]

Let's buckle up.

[Emma]

Do you have a request for 500? You don't have to say it now, but if you think of one, let me know because I'd like to prep.

[Christine]

I looked at the calendar last night, and I was like, I saw episode 500 with, like, a bunch of exclamation points. And I was like, well, I think that's a sign for me to start thinking about it, so. Because my brother and I recorded our. Wait, that's weird. My brother and I recorded our 400th yesterday, and I forgot completely. Like, completely. And so that's gonna happen if I don't think about. If, you know. You know that already about me. I will not think. I will not know. So the exclamation points did clue me in. So let me.

[Emma]

You don't have to know now, but give me.

[Christine]

You got, like, brainstorm.

[Emma]

Nine weeks.

[Christine]

So don't do tapeworms. I'll kill you.

[Emma]

I will not. I will not. This is a poltergeist story for you, okay? This is the. And it's in your. Your town. Well, it's in your state. Tell me, do you know the town Olive Hill?

[Christine]

No.

[Emma]

Okay. This is the Olive Hill Poltergeist.

[Christine]

Oh, my gosh. I've never heard of this.

[Emma]

How far away is Olive Hill from you?

[Christine]

I just said I've never heard.

[Emma]

I know. I. I expected. I don't know why I expected.

[Christine]

I'm like. I'm not a L E X A, if that's what you're asking.

[Emma]

It's two hours from you.

[Christine]

Which direction? Like, what part? What part?

[Emma]

That's nearer Ashland. Huntington.

[Christine]

West Virginia?

[Emma]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Oh, yeah. Like, so, like, Appalachian kind of.

[Emma]

Yes.

[Christine]

Getting close. Yeah. Okay, cool. I love. It's so beautiful down there. I love that drive.

[Emma]

It's very.

[Christine]

Virginia. Starts to get scary a little bit, but. And West Virginia makes fun of Kentucky. And Kentucky makes fun of West Virginia. So you know what?

[Emma]

It's shocking that there isn't more of a rivalry between Virginia and West Virginia. But they are. It's. They're. They even share a name and yet are so different.

[Christine]

I think that's. Yeah. What. I think that's why I think Kentucky and West Virginia are very similar. So they get really mad at each other.

[Emma]

What's. I think West Virginia and Western Virginia are very similar and interesting. But like, Fredericksburg is very different than.

[Christine]

Yes. And then like. Because, like D.C. area. I mean. Yeah, makes sense.

[Emma]

So Olive Hill, Kentucky, which is two hours from Christine. And this was in 1968. So the two people that you have to care about right now are John and Aura. O R A. And they are retirees living in their house. And they're. Oh, their last name is Callahan. So sometimes it's been called the Callahan Poltergeist. But okay, John aura. So in 1968, we start strong. They're sitting on their couch, and above their couch there's a framed picture of Jesus. And of course you've got to start a poltergeist. I mean, it's like fresh into, like, if you wanted to start a horror movie, start with a picture of Jesus.

[Christine]

No, I was just thinking of Kentucky. But yeah, also horror movie. Yeah, it really fits both.

[Emma]

Literally writes itself kind of both.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Emma]

So, okay, picture of Jesus. Apparently written on the picture of Jesus, it says, Christ is the head of this house.

[Christine]

Oh, lovely.

[Emma]

Literally meant for a movie intro. The picture cracks on its own. And that is the beginning of. I'm just going to call it Hell Week because throughout the week very similar things happen, only it very quickly escalates. So there's mirrors, light bulbs, dishes, even more picture frames to start shattering in the home.

[Christine]

Oh, my God.

[Emma]

All in the same pattern, which is interesting. I guess they noticed that the cracking pattern on them was similar to if it had been shot in the center and like splintered outward and Ew.

[Christine]

So it's like one pinpoint in the middle. Like a bullet hole sort of. Ew, that is so creepy, dude.

[Emma]

Someone shot Jesus because.

[Christine]

Ah. Ew. I hate that. And also, like, that visually is so, so creepy. Rather than like just, oh, the side cracked a little bit.

[Emma]

No, it's like.

[Christine]

It's like right in the middle. Outward is wild.

[Emma]

Yeah, it's very odd.

[Christine]

Weird.

[Emma]

Then the washing machine also starts freaking

[Christine]

out, just getting shot.

[Emma]

It's good. You know what?

[Christine]

Actually freak out too.

[Emma]

That's so funny you mentioned that. I hadn't put it together, but one of the Problems with it was that they kept hearing loud bangs from the inside. So.

[Christine]

Oh dear. Which like, I guess you could say is like my weed pen rolling around in there usually is what it like when that happens, I'm like, oh no, I've done it again. But yeah, I guess this could also be that. No paranormal gunshots.

[Emma]

I feel like imagine it's like flying in the air and levitating and it's just playing that. That ass 3 minute long Samsung song.

[Christine]

Like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That always interrupts like the most intense moments of your life.

[Emma]

So the washing machine is literally shaking and freaking out. Just like how other objects are flying around. Despite this being super heavy. It literally levitates from the ground and starts shaking as if energy is trying to get out of it.

[Christine]

Ew, ew, ew.

[Emma]

Aura. She. This is a bit of a long quote, but it. I only. And also the. It was a fragmented quote where like I got one piece from a different article, another piece from different article, but it's all talking about the same situation. So I just clumped them together. So Aura says. Things began to break all at once. I didn't know what to do. I got up and went into the bathroom and a bottle of bath oil flew against the wall and cracked like a shotgun.

[Christine]

Oh my God.

[Emma]

Later in the day, I started my washer and it boomed inside just like a shotgun. I knew all the granite would be broken off inside, but when I opened the lid, there wasn't any damage. Things would break and we're just sitting there looking at them with no one touching anything, no one near them. And then it got to a point where now we're just leaving things to let them lay where they fall. Like it was like, whoa.

[Christine]

It was like, well, there goes the blank. Might as well nothing we can do about it sort of thing.

[Emma]

Yeah. Like it was happening so frequently that they stopped just even trying to clean it up. They were just like, well, okay.

[Christine]

So that's interesting because of course I thought like washing machines, Samsung Diddy, but like I didn't. And weed pen. But I didn't think like, oh, 19. What year is it? 68. To even have a washing machine, I feel like is a big deal. Especially like Eastern. It feels like that wouldn't be normal. But then the granite. Maybe it's more like a.

[Emma]

Like an original washing machine.

[Christine]

Like a crank one. I don't know.

[Emma]

Washboards in there.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Emma]

I don't know.

[Christine]

I'm sure that maybe. But I just. That thing about cracked granite, I'm like What kind of washing machine is this?

[Emma]

But that's a good point. That's a good point.

[Christine]

And those sounds fancy though.

[Emma]

Those were in the same quote too. So I didn't. Yeah, I don't know.

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Emma]

Only a few days later, they. I said they weren't even trying to like really like clean the stuff up and re. Hang it or anything. They just kept buckets around the house and would just put the shards in them.

[Christine]

I feel like that's how I live. It's like with a four year old, it's like I don't even bother putting stuff away. I just kind of like have piles. I'm like, just. We'll get to it.

[Emma]

A doom bucket. You just have to.

[Christine]

Yeah. Once the tornado finishes, then I'll get to it. Yeah.

[Emma]

So they had buckets around the house where they were just tossing. That's why shattered pieces in. Literally. And this is all within one week. They were. It went from nothing's going on to

[Christine]

all of this to the Jesus cracking. And then like, yes. Oh, God, that's crazy.

[Emma]

By the end of the week, good for them. They flood the house. They moved.

[Christine]

Oh, I thought you said flood. And I was like, oh, no, excuse me. They flooded the house. Okay. They fled. Fled. Fled.

[Emma]

They fled the house. Which, like, I. I know that not everybody has the ability to do that, but I like how in every other poltergeist story, I'm like, get out as soon as you never get.

[Christine]

Yeah, they never get out. Yeah, it's. It's nice when it. When the trope of like staying forever doesn't happen.

[Emma]

Right. I don't know if you know these locations, but I guess Olive Hill. I guess the neighborhood they lived in was called Henderson Branch. And then they moved to another neighborhood.

[Christine]

Henderson Branch. Okay.

[Emma]

Yeah. And then they moved to Zimmerman Hill.

[Christine]

I don't know.

[Emma]

My understanding is that there are two neighborhoods in the same town.

[Christine]

Okay. Okay. So I think there's very small towns over there. So I feel like it's probably. Yeah. They're kind of mixed together.

[Emma]

Okay, cool. Would you. If it sounds like a lot of these places are just last names and then like a nature thing, like Heather says Zimmerman Hill. Yeah. Would you be like she for trunk?

[Christine]

What would you be she drunk chief or Valley? I would want to be a Valley. Because then I'm like, that sounds like so deep. Get it? What would yours be?

[Emma]

I think I'd want to be like, well, I don't know about the. With the last name Schultz, but I like the idea of like some sort of water thing, like a river.

[Christine]

Oh, yeah, that's good, too. That's correct. Or what about, like, a cat canyon or something? Like, you know, something like cavern.

[Emma]

Is there anything alliterative with Schultz?

[Christine]

Oh, good. Or Schieffer?

[Emma]

Where she for the she first.

[Christine]

Schultz Sanctuary.

[Emma]

Sanctuary.

[Christine]

She for Schultz Wilderness sanctuary. Shark sanctuary.

[Emma]

I mean. I mean, with love, that's what it would be.

[Christine]

Now it's a shark sanctuary. So I don't know what anyone wants to do about it except just accept it. Thank you.

[Emma]

I love that. Thank you. I knew I knew I knew to ask. Okay.

[Christine]

Yeah, you were right to ask the

[Emma]

she for salt sanctuary. Okay, Sanctuary. Okay. So they are still in the Olive Hill area, but they move within a week. And the very first, like, day, I'm thinking, or at least within the first week of them moving into this new house.

[Christine]

Oh, no.

[Emma]

They see an apparition of the first owner that lived in their last house. Like, the person.

[Christine]

Is he there? He's like, oh, thank God we got out. And they're like, wait, you weren't invited? I feel like he, like, hitched a ride to the Holiday Inn. Like, that's not fair.

[Emma]

Yeah, so it's. I don't really know where to place this or if I was even going to mention it at all. But the theory later was that some researchers think that the original owner of the house used to kind of, like, try to make contact with spirits. And so maybe he stirred something up, but that wouldn't explain why, like, when we don't have any records of him being haunted or, like, the many years that the family lived in that house before this week. Yeah, but so there's a lot that

[Christine]

he did just kind of pop. He was like, I'm out of there now. I've attached to you guys. I've hitched a ride with you guys.

[Emma]

Maybe a part of me is, like, for the first time in my life, skeptical, where I'm like, maybe I. Maybe they just had a dream of, like, the. All the people who had to live there before them. It was like, I don't know. I don't really understand. It was a very fleeting moment where they said, like, oh, yeah, and then we saw the original owner of the house. I'm like, why don't we speak on that?

[Christine]

I mean, there's not much to say.

[Emma]

I guess not.

[Christine]

Except he hitched a ride, I guess.

[Emma]

I mean, honestly, your. Your theory is the funniest, so I'm just gonna stick with that. That he was just.

[Christine]

It's also the correctest. So that helps.

[Emma]

He. But so they saw him. The theory goes that he made contact with spirits and might be responsible for this. I don't really know about that, but. So they saw him as soon as they moved into this new place. And then as soon as they saw the operation of this guy, the activity starts all over again. So it's almost like he. If you want to play that game, it's like he cursed them into the activity around. I don't know. I see.

[Christine]

Okay, okay, okay. He like, symbolizes the cycle starting all over again. He's like, maybe.

[Emma]

Or like, I took it as like all of the haunting spirits of the house followed you. And so, like one night you saw a previous owner, another night it was,

[Christine]

oh, you're being visited by all the previous Scrooge situation.

[Emma]

Well, so they, they see that guy the next day. Activity has clearly followed them because the objects start breaking again. They know pretty soon objects are going to be flying around the room again.

[Christine]

They're like, we know this old story. Yeah, get the buckets.

[Emma]

The tail is old. This time, friends and family were over at the new house, including their 12 year old grandson, Roger. Roger becomes a pivotal character.

[Christine]

Oh, I bet.

[Emma]

And not to say that he's responsible for anything, but just like, he's gonna get mentioned a lot. So remember the name Roger.

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Emma]

And he's 12. So the friends and family are all over at the house, probably helping them pack or unpack. And objects are flying everywhere. There's heavy furniture flipping itself over. Dishes are shooting itself across the room. Picture frames are spinning on the wall. Apparently like a chest of furniture. A chest flew at Roger. An end table flipped itself. Family figurines floated in the air and then dropped straight to the ground. There was one quote that I saw from one of the grandkids who was like, I saw this figurine in the air and it clearly floated there because I was then able to look at my cousin and then look back at it and then it dropped.

[Christine]

So it was like you seeing this. Oh, my gosh.

[Emma]

Wow.

[Christine]

That's crazy.

[Emma]

Some of them got hit with projectiles. Some items swirled around other items and then landed back in their original spot.

[Christine]

Ew.

[Emma]

So there was one case of like an ashtray that picked itself up, floated across the room, went around a lamp, and then came back and sat back down.

[Christine]

That feels like a weird, like, trick you would buy in like a magazine from the 1960s, like a magic kit that you would buy in a catalog or something and then, like, learn magnetic tricks. To, like, levitate stuff.

[Emma]

Fishing wire or something?

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Like, trick. Fool your friends, you know?

[Emma]

Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

[Christine]

But. Wow. I. But I really don't understand how that would happen, so I have no idea.

[Emma]

And this was this one. I don't know why it. Others certainly should be scarier to me, but this one freaked me out the most was that they saw plastic cups that were stacked on top of the fridge slowly drifting down from the top of the fridge. So, like, it's almost like they got picked up off the fridge. And then just one by one, slowly drifted down to the floor. Ah.

[Christine]

What?

[Emma]

And when they put them. When they stack the cups back up and put them back on the top of the fridge, then they flew across the room, and the fridge moved itself.

[Christine]

I don't like it.

[Emma]

I don't know why that one freaks me out more. It gives me chills, the projectiles hitting children.

[Christine]

But there's something about the poltergeist stuff that's, like, with the. I don't know, like, with the. With the stacking and the. The perfect symmetry that is so unsettling. And I like inhuman, you know?

[Emma]

And I think about how silly the ghosts must actually look. I imagine it kind of like a movie set. And, like, you could see all the people in, like, green screen costumes, like, just carrying things from place to place.

[Christine]

And it's, like, covered in. Yeah.

[Emma]

It's like. It's really not that scary. If I could see how stupid you look, picking this up and putting it over there and then putting it back.

[Christine]

Piling quarters on top of each other in the middle of the hallway.

[Emma]

I'm like, don't you have anything else to do? But, yeah. It's still so eerie, this. The thing's moving slower after they've clearly proven they can go faster. I hate it.

[Christine]

Yeah. Not good.

[Emma]

In the next few days, a stray cat also started coming by, but then very quickly refused to ever go near the house again.

[Christine]

Oh, boy.

[Emma]

And then more apparitions appeared. Namely, there was two of them. Both Aura saw. And she also saw the. The previous honor. Yeah. She saw both of these next apparitions the clearest. Although there were witnesses before or after. So let me explain. One of them was her brother, who had passed 14 years earlier.

[Christine]

Oh, God. Okay. Wow. So something. Yeah. Weird. Okay.

[Emma]

So. Yeah, it's almost like things got brought

[Christine]

over from some portal or something. Like. Yeah, it's strange.

[Emma]

Something like that. And so even though she saw this apparition, apparently her son also later saw this apparition.

[Christine]

Oh. So he saw his uncle. Then.

[Emma]

Yes. Okay, the next one, which makes very little sense to me. Aura saw the ghost of a Catholic nurse. So she looked like a nun, but she was also a nurse. She had, like, she was wearing the habit. She was an all white. And I guess Roger, he. Before she ever saw it, Roger said that he saw something white in the yard running behind a tree. So we think that maybe he.

[Christine]

It was just a rabbit.

[Emma]

Yeah, it could have just been, like, a turtle bug. I don't know. Wow.

[Christine]

Now I know. Listen, hold on. Rewind. Now that's newsworthy. No, but, yeah, that's. That's creepy. But if she's running behind trees, like, that is horrible. I refuse to believe that that's a Catholic nurse running behind the trees in the backyard. I can't.

[Emma]

Unless there's a medical emergency behind the tree. Then maybe that's.

[Christine]

Maybe that's the only soothing thing, because I will not sleep if I think about that for another second.

[Emma]

So apparently I. Despite my turtle dove claims, this Catholic nurse was taller and bigger than most people. So, like, really towered over her.

[Christine]

Oh, okay.

[Emma]

It was while she was, I guess, sleeping, or in her bedroom, a basket of bed. She, like, towered over her. I guess one of them touched the other. And Aura said that she felt very cold. And when Aura ran out of the room, a cabinet in the kitchen tried to slam into her.

[Christine]

Yuck.

[Emma]

Yuck.

[Christine]

I was just talking to a friend about postpartum hair shedding and how much I struggled with that because I'd already had a lot of hair shedding before that. And so then after, when I postpartum, I was like, oh, no. But Nutrafol offered a postpartum formula, and I was able to start taking that. And I have not stopped taking neutrophil since then. It really has worked wonders for me. I recommend it to anybody who's feeling insecure or feeling like just they want to get a little more volume, a little more thickness to their hair. Nutrafol is the number one dermatologist recommended hair growth supplement brand, and it's the number one hair growth supplement brand personally used by dermatologists.

[Emma]

Neutral's hair growth supplements are peer reviewed, NSF certified for sport and clinically tested. And just like in Christine's case, it might be a postpartum situation. For me, it's just a, like, I don't know, situation. Yeah, my. My mom, she's going through some changes, if you will, that have led to some hair thinning. But there's a million reasons why you might Want to try out neutrophil? And it. It works. It works.

[Christine]

Yes, it does. Let your hair be one less thing to worry about. See? Visibly thicker, stronger, faster. Growing hair in three to six months with neutral for a limited time.

[Emma]

Neutropol is offering our listeners $10 off your first month subscription and free shipping when you visit nutrifold.com and enter promo code, drink. That's nutrifold.com spelled n u t r a f o l.com promo code, drink. So desperate for help, the family, they went, I guess, as public as you can in the 60s in a small little town inside of a small little town. But they reached out somehow.

[Christine]

Well, there's a lot of hills, so you could probably stand on top of one of the hills and just holler.

[Emma]

You know, they had some. They hollered down the holler.

[Christine]

Yeah, exactly. The she for shield taller. Yeah.

[Emma]

See, I would love also holler, Although I don't. I feel like I'm appropriating because I didn't grow up in hollers.

[Christine]

So in with. Yeah, yeah. Even though. Yeah, you were pretty close, huh? I. Geographically, but not geographically.

[Emma]

The p. I think hollers started like an hour and a half away from me.

[Christine]

Okay. Okay. Okay.

[Emma]

Yeah, I've. I have people who were. Lived in West Virginia came to my college, and I remember them saying they lived in a holler, and I was like, tell me everything.

[Christine]

You're like, that's a real thing?

[Emma]

Yeah, it's like. Like, Woody the Pooh are.

[Christine]

Meanwhile, I moved to D.C. for college, and everyone was like, you're from Ohio. Did you own, like, a cow? And I was like, no, I don't own a cat. What the.

[Emma]

I. Yeah, no, I like it. Anyway, that's a. That's a story for another day.

[Christine]

Yes.

[Emma]

So desperate for help, the family reached out, and somehow it got through the grapevine to a local college. They. It basically, they said, we're looking for any help. Please, God, help us. And Morehead State University, they. They are one of the first colleges that had a paranormal club.

[Christine]

Whoa. I didn't know that.

[Emma]

It's called the SISP I don't even know if it still exists, but if someone is a part of it, let me know.

[Christine]

You literally, it froze from when you said it's called. And then it completely froze, and then it came back at. But if anyone's part of it, let me know. Like. Yeah, it's like to this millisecond.

[Emma]

It redacted itself.

[Christine]

Yeah, it literally just bleeped it out. What Was it? Let's.

[Emma]

Let's try it again.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Emma]

The SISP or society. Did it happen again?

[Christine]

Nope.

[Emma]

Okay. Society for Investigation of Supernatural Phenomena.

[Christine]

Wow. Yeah, it totally redacted. That's crazy. Wow. How cool, though. I did not know that.

[Emma]

Yeah. So I hope it's still kicking. And they found out about this. And I'm sure if you're like, a college club who, like, wants to prove yourself and it's about ghosts, you know, they jumped on that. They were like, poltergeist.

[Christine]

We think we have a poltergeist. I mean, come on. I'd jump on that. I'd be like, I'm joining the club immediately.

[Emma]

If there was a poltergeist two hours from here, I'd be like, I don't know if I'll go myself, but I would love to know somebody who's there and maybe take some videos for me.

[Christine]

No, I would for sure watch the live stream of some. Some content creators. Live stream of the event.

[Emma]

Yeah, we.

[Christine]

We see each other, and then we would yap about it later from the comfort of our own home, act like we were there. Why don't you just leave? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's perfect. Perfect.

[Emma]

One of the main students involved in this at the time, I think he was one of the founders of the club. His name was Ed. And I'm. I only say his name because it sounds like he was kind of the leader of the bunch who all ended up going over to the house to check it out. So Ed and the gang, they. This was their version, I guess, of, like, an investigation. But it sounds like a lot of what they did was kind of just research deaths in the town, and I guess that was to see how they might be affecting the land that the house was on.

[Christine]

Yeah. Okay. I feel like I could do, like, I'm down. It's not the. Pretty easy. I feel like I would try to figure out who it was maybe, but I guess I don't know. Well, it's a good angle.

[Emma]

And. And, I mean, there's students, and there's very little. I mean, there's no Internet and there's no other people to talk to about this. So I guess they were going with what they had, which was the library made of Roc.

[Christine]

So, like. Yeah, I don't know what's going on.

[Emma]

They. I. I'm. I'm not hesitant to bring them up because they are a part of the story, but I'm hesitant to really dive deep into their theories or, like, their methods because it just sounds. I Don't. I'm not, like, trying to judge anybody. It just sounds.

[Christine]

No wonder they redacted their name. They're gonna sue you in a minute.

[Emma]

Well, these days, I'm sure it's like, simply with the power of Internet, I'm sure that they have more sources know,

[Christine]

back then, like, what else? I mean, if you're devoted and you're reading books, I mean, that means. You realize that means that they didn't watch YouTube videos. They literally had to read books about this shit. Which is, like, pretty legit.

[Emma]

No, that's, like, for sure.

[Christine]

Quite a bit of credit, I think. But.

[Emma]

So I guess the way I'm trying to phrase it is that, like, they came up with a lot of information, but I don't know how it really connects to anything.

[Christine]

Okay. Okay. So they just. Yeah. Found, like, background history.

[Emma]

Like, they were like, this happened here and this happened. And it felt like a lot of their theories were kind of leaps.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Emma]

To try to make them connect. Like.

[Christine]

Right.

[Emma]

So an example is that there was a death many years before at, like, a coal mine or something like that. And the same company where there was that death, another worker once lived in the house of John and Oro.

[Christine]

And so it's like, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. Like, a little, like, what is that?

[Emma]

Like, it's just like, a lot of stretches, like, they were.

[Christine]

They don't also really solve anything, I guess.

[Emma]

Right. Or like, when they. When Aura saw the apparition of her brother who died 15 years before, his wife, I guess, maybe had some mental illness and was institutionalized. And they tried to use that as a reason for, like, everyone else was, like, losing touch with reality with all these poltergeist activities going on in the house. Like, it was just like they were just trying to connect dots where they were trying to find dots and then trying to connect them, you know?

[Christine]

Yeah, they were creating dots. Yeah. Okay. Gotcha, gotcha, gotcha.

[Emma]

And so they did go to the house, and they did observe a lot of stuff. I just think their reasoning for a lot of it just doesn't totally click for me.

[Christine]

Sure, sure.

[Emma]

So one of the things that they did do, they researched the town. They also went over to observe what they could, and eventually other investigators got involved as well, which really muddies this up because I don't know who saw what. Okay, so I'm just gonna say the investigators. But it could mean this college club, or it could mean, like, investigators in Durham, North Carolina, who had, like, much more advanced technology. They went on to be, like, prominent figures in paranormal research. So it's quite a gamut. And everyone seems to have been in the house at the same time.

[Christine]

Oh, I see. So they're just in and out, like gathering anything they can?

[Emma]

I think so.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Emma]

So it's. It's a confusing who's who, just. But the only thing I'll say is the one that, that really matters, I guess, is one investigator who was a part of all this. His name is William roll. And he becomes like a big guy in paranormal eventually. So. Okay. Okay. But I'm just gonna vaguely say investigators from now on.

[Christine]

I feel like you should go by Billy Roll.

[Emma]

Yeah, sure. I like that.

[Christine]

Jelly Roll. Billy Roll. He probably hated that.

[Emma]

It. No, I. It made me. I was wondering if I should go on a tangent or not. And I'm gonna say no.

[Christine]

I'm saying that guy probably hated it. Probably nickname. Yeah.

[Emma]

Someone called him Billy Roll.

[Christine]

You know, he hated it.

[Emma]

Investigators blanket statement. They wondered if the spirits were connected to Roger. Because Roger seemed to have developed a sixth sense with all this activity. He was able to predict incidents before they actually happened.

[Christine]

This is a child. Yes, this.

[Emma]

He is the 12 year old grandson.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Emma]

So an example of this is he would say like, something's about to happen or things will start up again soon. And then they would.

[Christine]

And then he, he. They found his. His kit that he bought from the catalog with the fishing wire.

[Emma]

And then they found all of his magnets and string.

[Christine]

I mean, it's happened before. Fox sisters. Anybody I know?

[Emma]

And you know, I had it just been the, the college club. And this was like their. Maybe one of their first, like.

[Christine]

Right.

[Emma]

Their first tries at this, I would have thought maybe they missed something. But when this other Durham group of investigators came where they like, were professional paranormal investigators and researchers, they said that they tried every sort of test they could and they could not find strings and all this. So. So one time they were also recording a conversation with Roger about his experiences in the house. And very weirdly, the recording of Roger's voice was interrupted by three very strange sounds. And then the tape went blank. And didn't record anything else for the rest of the interview.

[Christine]

No, thanks.

[Emma]

So that was the first time that they then theorized, well, maybe Roger is at the center of this, but it's not intentional. Maybe something is attached to Roger.

[Christine]

Yuck.

[Emma]

One thing they noticed was that Roger's senses were actually getting stronger. It seemed like he was getting stronger or more attuned to the activity.

[Christine]

Oh, I don't like this.

[Emma]

And John and. Or the grandparents Whose house this originally affected, they were getting physically weaker. Now, I will say they were also, like, in their 70s and 80s.

[Christine]

Maybe they were just explained, I suppose. Yeah, but.

[Emma]

And I would also say, like, maybe Roger's just getting more confident, and he's getting quite a lot of attention with people coming in and out, asking questions,

[Christine]

going through puberty, probably just to say, like, if he's 12, I don't know.

[Emma]

But. So they're. Their observation was, well, he's getting stronger and they're getting weaker, so maybe we need to separate them, and then we'll see if the activity follows just him. So investigators kept them away from each other and put Roger just back at his own house. And the activity stopped happening at the grandparents house. So it did seem to follow Roger.

[Christine]

Oh, boy.

[Emma]

But one night, like, it didn't just follow him, like, a little bit. Like, the. The grandparents ended up getting a phone call from the house saying, like, you don't have to worry about anything. Like, all of that activity is for sure over here. Wow. Objects were flying like crazy. Furniture was flipping. All the same stuff that was going on at the original house. One of the stories was that the parents of Roger, who had already been witnessing everything going on, things were about to start flying. Like, they saw items just twitching as if they were about to take off, and they started just grabbing things off the table and just throwing them on the ground before they could start flying.

[Christine]

Like, that is so creepy, dude. Like, the concept of, like, oh, that's about to go flying and that becomes normal to you.

[Emma]

Yeah. And just being like, I'm gonna beat you to it and just throw it on the floor.

[Christine]

Oh, no.

[Emma]

Another time, investigators were in a room with Roger. His back was facing the television, and on the television there was a bowl of fruit or, sorry, a bowl of flowers. And that bowl of flowers was sitting on top of a doily, which was on top of the tv. Does that make sense?

[Christine]

Classic. Classic, yes.

[Emma]

So Ryder's not even looking at the TV or anything. He's just in the room. His back is facing all of that. But they hear this loud crack, and the bowl of flowers and the doily that it's sitting on top of, Both lift themselves off the tv, throw themselves behind the tv, and when they go and look, it's sitting perfectly as it was with the flowers all still arranged perfectly in the bowl on top of the doily on the floor behind the tv.

[Christine]

Ew. Ew. Ew.

[Emma]

Then as they're talking about how that could have happened, A clock that was also Sitting on the tv then flies across the room in the opposite direction, like 4ft or something, until it lands just at their toes.

[Christine]

See, it's like that kind of.

[Emma]

And also what's freaky to me is that like it flew across in the opposite direction. So you can't even say, oh, there was a shift or something.

[Christine]

Right.

[Emma]

Like it's going in all directions.

[Christine]

Wind. Yeah. No, it's. That's creepy. I mean, and like he's 12, so that is the perfect age. Right? Like puberty, like for poltergeist. Like that's when that happens.

[Emma]

Yeah, yeah.

[Christine]

I mean that's that teenage energy.

[Emma]

You're onto it. So another time Roger claimed that the table was going to flip over. Apparently when he said this, he like just stared off into the sunset or something.

[Christine]

The table over his eyes like went to the middle gaze.

[Emma]

Yeah. To the ether. And five minutes later, the 60 pound table not only levitated, but rotated its itself 45 degrees and then landed on top of the chairs in a way where if you were to take like all four dining room chairs and have them kind of close enough to each other, the table holds it up. Yeah.

[Christine]

So that's not cool, man.

[Emma]

So the table landed in a way where none of its legs were hitting the floor. It was balancing on the chairs.

[Christine]

That's so effed up. That's like I literally immediately had a flashback to those like we used to build like coaster with coasters. Like try to build with coasters like that. That's creepy, dude. I don't like that.

[Emma]

It's one thing because if it was like a 12 year old kid and he's doing this on purpose with his little strings and all this mag.

[Christine]

Yeah, exactly.

[Emma]

A 60 pound table flying over your head and landing exactly on the chairs on your first try in front of everyone.

[Christine]

He said that. And then like I hate that they have to wait five minutes. They're like, when is it gonna happen?

[Emma]

At least that time he said a table slipping over versus will happen.

[Christine]

Because if they were sitting at the table, it's like, yeah, get away from the table. You know? Yeah.

[Emma]

The second I'd hear the table slipping over, I'd be like, well, I'll be in the other room where the table Walmart actually.

[Christine]

Bye.

[Emma]

So another table, a different time, threw itself over them, like over their heads. This was after he predicted something would happen at 1am and at 1am is when the table flipped itself.

[Christine]

Oh my God.

[Emma]

Objects flew everywhere. There was loud knocking that came from nowhere. Shelving toppled itself. And at this Point. Roger's parents, they were like this. We think that either there's a demon attached to him, or you brought the demon investigators. And they're just like, I think, trying to find blame anywhere they can. So they told the investigators to leave. They were like, you're clearly not helping, so just go now. Apparently, Roger's parents are Jehovah's Witnesses, and they reached out to their group of people, and the Jehovah's Witnesses came over and said, okay, we agree that something's attached to him, and we're going to host an exorcism.

[Christine]

Oh, dear.

[Emma]

As juicy as that sounds, I don't want you to get your hopes up for anything fun coming out of this, because it's kind of just a one sentence beat. And I'm like, why didn't we talk more about this? But they apparently hosted an exorcism that included burning a lot of his personal items, thinking, oh, my gosh. I know.

[Christine]

So imagine being 12 and traumatizing to every extent.

[Emma]

If I were 12 and there wasn't a poltergeist and someone burned all my clothes and favorite items, I'd be pissed.

[Christine]

Yeah. And then they told you, oh, it's. We're only burning them because there's demons attached to them. And you. Oh, that. Thanks. That helps.

[Emma]

Thank you.

[Christine]

Yes, thank you.

[Emma]

So they host an exorcism. Apparently it doesn't even work. So he had all the stuff burned for no reason.

[Christine]

Super duper.

[Emma]

Eventually, the family, I guess, just gives up, and they're like, okay, we're gonna move and see what happens.

[Christine]

Oh, they move. Okay.

[Emma]

And so they. Which I guess doesn't make a lot of sense because it clearly didn't fix anything.

[Christine]

The last time they all moved, I guess desperate times. I don't know.

[Emma]

Desperate times. But they. I mean, this time they moved out of the area and entirely, like, they moved out of Olive Hill, Kentucky, and the activity ceased. So that then led to, like, to this day, locals say Olive Hill in general is haunted.

[Christine]

Sure.

[Emma]

And then that feeds into, like, giving the college investigators, like, a lot of validation because they're like, okay. So all of our research on why Olive Hill in general is haunted makes some sense that they were going to be haunted no matter where they were, as long as they were in this area. So it was a lot of, like, confirmation bias at Olive Hill is just a haunted town, period. Investigators had a lot of theories about where the activity came from. Like I said, a lot of it felt like stretches. So I'm not really even going to entertain them. But the main running theory, which came from Billy Roll, who he. At the time, he was just starting out when he investigated this. And now he's this big, prominent figure. But his whole special interest is psychokinesis, or, like, moving things with your mind. And so his big theory was that Roger was responsible for everything, but that he was dealing with a specific type of psychokinesis called rspk, which means recurrent spontaneous psychokinesis. The recurrent meaning it's happening non stop, and the spontaneous meaning it was not intentional or conscious.

[Christine]

Right.

[Emma]

So it may have actually looked like poltergeist activity. This is a big poltergeist theory that. What are the odds? A lot of poltergeist activity happens in homes where the family has pubescent or about to be pubescent children, and all of that energy swirling around them makes them have abilities or anything.

[Christine]

Especially in, like, homes with, like, charge situations. Like, I've heard stories where, like, one child was very ill, and so it added so much stress to the family and like. Or like a divorce is happening. Yeah. Yeah. Gives me chills.

[Emma]

So that's become. The running theory is that Roger did not know he was responsible for this, which feels like, I guess we're alleviating half the victim blaming here. But it goes with most poltergeist theories that he was just responsible for it with psychokinesis. And they actually reached out to see if he would come to the lab with them. Like, the investigators, after they were told to leave, said, can he at least come back and we can test his psychokinesis and we can work with him at our place. And the parents refused. They were like, we want nothing to do with you. And that was kind of the end of that relationship.

[Christine]

I mean, especially if you're, like, in a Jehovah's Witness community. I feel like that's not really, like, the vibe. Like, don't send them off to lab.

[Emma]

Let's not add to this.

[Christine]

Yeah, they're not gonna send them off to a lab, but they will do an exorcism. So that's fantastic.

[Emma]

But it's their exorcism.

[Christine]

Yeah, well, sure.

[Emma]

The. The investigators, in total, I think they documented, like, 200 incidents in these few weeks that they were there and Roger was present or at least in the. In the room in some capacity for 180 of them.

[Christine]

Out of how many?

[Emma]

Out of 200.

[Christine]

Oh, wow. Yeah. So that. I mean, that feels.

[Emma]

And I'm rounding up, it's like 170 something against 190 something. I'm saying 180 to 200, but. So they were like, he's probably involved. And after this Billy roll, as he grew in his career, he has stated that Roger's case of RSPK was one of the most authentic cases he's ever come across.

[Christine]

Wow.

[Emma]

Probably just because there were so many witnesses and there was no explanation.

[Christine]

And that was like, intense. Like, I mean, tables flipping and stuff is.

[Emma]

They're ducking. Yeah. So. So anyway, that is the Olive Hill poltergeist.

[Christine]

Jeez, I cannot believe I've never heard of that. That's freaking crazy.

[Emma]

Yeah. And now next time you're rolling through Olive Hill, you go, this whole town is haunted, apparently.

[Christine]

Oh, I've heard. I've heard on good authority.

[Emma]

Yeah.

[Christine]

All right. Well, I have. I found this creepy Krampus coloring book that we can look at some cool imagery and maybe Brainstorm topic for 500 in the yappy hour if you want.

[Emma]

Oh, wonderful. All.

[Christine]

Oh, my gosh. I'm so excited to tell everybody about this. I don't know if anyone's had that experience where you take a gummy that you're promised has a certain amount in it or like, is low dosage and then it like hits you too hard, but that's where batch comes in. They make these amazing little batch micro mints. And they look like breath mints and they taste like breath mints, but each one has just 1 milligram of THC. So sometimes, like, if I'm just out and about and like, like, like say now, especially now that I don't drink, like if I'm at a wedding or something, I put them in my little. And it's like, oh, just pop a little breath mint, you know? And they're great for anxiety. They're cbd, so it's like, it smooths out the experience, takes the edge off, and you don't have a hangover the next morning. So like, there's nothing to lose here.

[Emma]

And they hit fast, like 15 to 20 minutes. So it's not like you don't have to wonder, is it working yet or do I feel it yet? I mean, the best part is it's only 1 milligram, so you're probably just feeling the exact right amount and it's very quick. So you're not waiting around all day for 10 kick in.

[Christine]

That's right. Get 30% off your first order when you head to hellobatch.com drink with promo code drink.

[Emma]

That's hellobatch.com drink with Promo Code drink at checkout. The 30% off is good towards subscriptions too, so you can lock in that discount on your monthly supply.

[Christine]

Emma, I know how much you love to be inconvenienced. It's your favorite thing. Yeah. So you probably have some time saving hacks, don't you, to like, get through the day?

[Emma]

Sure do. I sure do.

[Christine]

You send out out for things, I'm telling you.

[Emma]

And, and you throw ADHD in the mix. You gotta. Yeah, you gotta save time where you can.

[Christine]

No, I'm right there with you. Who am I kidding?

[Emma]

Yeah, we all have our own time saving hacks for everyday life. But if you're a business owner, how can you save time hiring? And that is Zip Recruiter.

[Christine]

Zip Recruiter has a new feature that quickly lets you see the most interested qualified candidates first. So you save time by meeting the right people faster. And right now you can try it

[Emma]

for [e-mail] drink, save time and meet great candidates sooner. With ZipRecruiter, four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first. First day. We have told you a million times. We absolutely can attest to that.

[Christine]

We're a success story.

[Emma]

Truly we are. I would say we're also like one of their, like, first success.

[Christine]

We're like their favorites, I think.

[Emma]

That's what I think too.

[Christine]

Well, we better be anyway. Just kidding. But it's true. And. Except that it does say four out of five employers, so we are in the majority, which doesn't necessarily help our kids.

[Emma]

I guess we're just a drop in the bucket for old ZipRecruiter.

[Christine]

No. Try it for free at ZipRecruiter.com Drink that. ZipRecruiter.com Drink. Meet your match on. On ZipRecruiter. All right, everybody, things are about to get weird because we have a new inside joke now. As of five minutes ago, as of within the last five minutes, well, I did lose my cell phone. Oh, here it is. Do people still say cell phone? Sometimes I wonder that. Like, because I normally I would say I lost my. All right, I can't find my phone, obviously. But for some reason sometimes I'll say, where's my cell phone? And I'm like, does anybody say that or is that just me, like being

[Emma]

a relic, you know your cellular device, right?

[Christine]

Am I my mobile cellular telephone?

[Emma]

I mean, I call it a pee home. So I really don't get to.

[Christine]

Yeah. Why the am I asking you?

[Emma]

I know.

[Christine]

No, my. And in Germany, they Call it a handy, like.

[Emma]

Well, that's fun.

[Christine]

Yeah. So I'm always like, that's a good one. But I don't know. Cell phone, if that's weird.

[Emma]

I think I'm at an age where I wouldn't.

[Christine]

We wouldn't. Bad knight, probably.

[Emma]

No. But I'm sure others would.

[Christine]

I see. Yes. Oh, well, you know, frankly, my dear, I just don't give a damn. So as long as you don't. As long as you don't have a problem with I don't care at all, me saying cellular device, then we're okay.

[Emma]

I do not.

[Christine]

Excellent. All right, so I have a story for you today, by the way, when I said we had an inside joke. Don't worry, you're going to be part of the inside joke very soon, because that's part of this story. Unfortunately, I. I've already warned him. Okay. So this is a very famous case that I have heard about a million times and am excited to cover. And I'm realizing right in this very moment would have been perfect for episode 500.

[Emma]

It's okay. That happens.

[Christine]

Because it's also called the Yuba County Five, and we really could have done some puns.

[Emma]

God. Wow.

[Christine]

I'm a little bit like, why didn't I. Because also, it's such a rabbit hole that I made myself limit the information because I was like, it'll go on forever. And I don't, you know, so I've limited the information, but I feel like I could, like, speak on a lot of it. So if you have any questions, let me know. But I'm gonna give the full background of the case. And it is creepy. M. It's like really freaking creepy. Okay, so this is a group of five boys, but they're technically men, young men from Yuba City and Marysville, California. Their names were Ted weir, who was 32, Jack Madruga, who was 30, Bill Sterling, 29, Jack Hewitt, 24, and Gary Matthias, 25. The five of them were close knit and collectively they were referred to by their families as the boys. Okay. Which, by the way, not like the TV show. I don't know if you watched that show, but that show, I have heard it is traumatizing.

[Emma]

I have heard.

[Christine]

I watched it. And I really feel that some of that has contributed to certain nightmares I have.

[Emma]

Have. It sounds bad. It sounds really violent.

[Christine]

It's upsetting. Yeah, it's very good. It's a very good show. But it's very. You have to be in the proper headspace.

[Emma]

I've. I mean, I obviously love a superhero show, but I also really don't like having anxiety when I'm relaxing, so.

[Christine]

Oh, really? I've never heard of any other way. But anyway.

[Emma]

Well, all these people are like, oh, what do you mean? You don't watch Grey's Anatomy or anything that makes you cry? And I'm like, why would I choose to cry when I'm trying to rest? Like, I. I don't need to have dark, bad thoughts in my head right before I go to bed. So that's how I feel about violent stuff too, where I'm like, if I see it, then I'm gonna think about it all night.

[Christine]

Yeah, it's disturbing and, like, I didn't realize. And then there's like a lot of, like, shock stuff, you know, And. And I think, like, my system is so not used to that because I never watched horror movies growing up. And so to me, I'm like, oh, I can handle like. Like, really up stuff. But, like, I'm not necessarily used to shock value. Like, to the shock factor part. Right. And so. And I don't even go to haunted houses. Like, I don't. I don't. I don't engage in any shock factor stuff. So that part really threw me. And I think I'm literally in this moment realizing, like, why I think it has stuck with me so much is because I'm not used to that. But, like, it's a shocking show. It's.

[Emma]

That's funny, the shocking stuff, the shock, the eye part of it is nothing for me, but it's the emotional part of it.

[Christine]

And it's disturbing. Like. But it's so well done. But it's so disturbing. You know what I mean? Anyway.

[Emma]

Okay, okay, anyway. Shout out to the boys that are not these boys.

[Christine]

Not these boys, but, like, you know, same quote, unquote name. But they were called the Boys. And they were very close. Four of them men. And a part of the reason they were called the boys is that they were young in a lot of ways. Four of them, Weir, Madruga, Sterling and Hewitt, had mild intellectual disabilities or developmental delays. We genuinely do not know the details because this I. Spoiler alert takes place in the 70s. And so the verbiage used back then.

[Emma]

Sure.

[Christine]

Like, leaves much to be desired in the. In the. In the way of, like, nuance and any sort of understanding besides, like, they're

[Emma]

slow, quote unquote, or, you know, something much worse.

[Christine]

Yeah, right. That's just what their parents. How their parents described it. There wasn't much more detail that you can find, except they were all, you know, very functioning. They lived like they did all live with their parents, but they were all, to different degrees, like, very successful in whatever they were pursuing. Gary was the only one of the boys who did not have a disability. He was a u. S. Army veteran who had been given a psychiatric discharge and was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia. And so he did. Didn't have, you know, he. He was in a sort of. He came from a different group than some of them. Some of them met in the program I'm about to get into. But he had been in the U.S. army. He was discharged, and he had been prescribed daily antipsychotics. And by February 1978, Matthias was considered by doctors to be basically like a medical mirror. Not medical miracle, but like a total success case. Like, he was so stable and so, like, successful in his just daily life that doctors were like, this is fantastic. This medication works great. And he was stable at the time of this incident. So it's just important to note that, okay, he was living at home at the time. He was working in his stepfather's gardening business. All five men played for a local special needs basketball team. And the name of the team was. Was the gateway gators.

[Emma]

Cool.

[Christine]

I know, it's pretty kickass. The team was scheduled to play their first tournament game in Sacramento on the morning of Saturday, February 25, 1978. And all five men were, like, jazzed about this because the winners of this tournament won a trip to Los Angeles. And like, the. The team literally won tickets or a trip to Los Angeles. So, like, they were excited and to the point that they were, like, bugging their parents about it because they were like, don't make. Don't let me sleep in, like, you know, like, laying their clothes out early. Like, they were just so very sweet, very jazzed, and, like, very ready to kick ass. So they had everything set. And it's just so chilling. M I, I don't know. This run reminds me of, like, who. What's the story? I can't believe I just forgot it. But the, the. The young. The young man from in who just. Who vanished in California and he drove off. Oh, my gosh. I'm like, complete. The disappearance of.

[Emma]

Right.

[Christine]

Not. Yeah.

[Emma]

Brian Les pieces.

[Christine]

Not Brian Schaefer Las pieces. Yes, that. That's the one. It gives that vibe where it's like they just drove away.

[Emma]

That's crazy.

[Christine]

I know. With. And with five people. Five people.

[Emma]

Wow.

[Christine]

Okay. So around 6:30pm Jack Madruga picked up the other four men in his 1969 turquoise. Mercury, Mercury Montego. And this car was like this teal turquoise color. He took pristine. He. He made sure it was pristine condition. It was his prize possession, like his baby. Nobody else was allowed to drive it. It. So Jack picked up his friends, the other four guys in this Mercury Montego. They drove roughly 50 miles north to California State University, Chico, because they were scheduled to go see a basketball game together between UC Davis and Chico State. So their team won. They were thrilled. Cool. Around 10pm the basketball game ended and the men left the arena. We know that shortly after that, they stopped at a place called Bears Market, which was a convenience store near the campus in Chico. And we know this because they had purchased snack food there. They purchased a cherry pie, a lemon pie, a Snickers bar, a marathon bar, two bottles of Pepsi, and a quart and a half of milk. And the reason I said this is how we know that's not how we know. The reason we know is because the store clerk remembered them buying all those items and was annoyed because she was trying to close the shop. And they were like, like 5K guys, like, causing, you know, mayhem in the store, picking candies and stuff. So she was like the last verified person to see them alive. Right. Obviously not knowing that in the moment, but just that was the last time anybody saw the five men alive. Confirmed. So the direct highway route from Chico back to their homes in Yuba City should have taken roughly 50 minutes, heading south. They had maps with them. They knew where home was. Like they were going home to sleep before the big game tomorrow morning.

[Emma]

Very excited about it. They.

[Christine]

That's where we need to understand the weirdest part, which is that instead of heading south, they began to travel far to the northeast into rugged, high elevation terrain toward the Plumas National Forest. Okay, the middle of the night rolls around. One of the moms is, like, anxious because her kid's supposed to have come home by like, 11pm and these are young men who, like, have had to establish routine in their lives, right? Because, like, they live with their parents, and their parents have had to help, like, facilitate, you know, adult living for them. And they've all, to varying degrees, are independent. But, you know, they have routine. And so, like, they're not gonna just all five be, like, out in the middle of the night, like, partying it off. Especially when they have, like, the game tomorrow. They just aren't. So when the mom wakes up and the kid's not in bed, she starts calling the other parents. And lo and behold, none of the kids have gotten home. So by Saturday, the police are alerted to the disappearance.

[Emma]

Do we. We know that they drove off into the forest or we know that their car drove off into the forest?

[Christine]

So. So great question. You will shortly find out. Yes. So not too long after that a cup. Well, I mean it was long in that the parents waiting nightmare amount of time. Because Saturday was when they alerted police. On Tuesday, February 28, a U.S. forest Service ranger located Jack Madruga's Mercury Montego parked on an unpaved snow covered forest road inside the Plumas National Forest. The car was located roughly 70 miles away from Chico and 4,400ft above sea level. So like far off of any logical path to Yuba City. It was just sitting there unlocked. The. The driver's window was rolled down.

[Emma]

Was it near anything where like, let's say somebody took their car and then. And clearly needed it to drive all that distance. Is it near anything that they would have wanted to drive to? Or it's just abandoned in a desert?

[Christine]

It's not abandoned. It. It's basically a big wilderness. So like, yes and no. Like if you were going camping and you wanted to like find a particular camping spot maybe. But also there was a blizzard on this night and they're from like Chico, California. They were not supposed to be driving into the mountains. They weren't even dressed for that. They were dressed for a basketball game.

[Emma]

And it sounds like someone tried to abandon this car.

[Christine]

It's just so strange, right? Because also when they take a look at it, they find all the wrappers. Well, okay. They find all the wrappers. That. Of the candies then stuff they had bought at the convenience store. Except apparently the marathon bar was like not finished. Which I don't know what that says about a marathon bar.

[Emma]

What is America? Hang on. Well, please.

[Christine]

I don't even know, to be honest. This.

[Emma]

It doesn't look good.

[Christine]

No.

[Emma]

A chocolate covered braided caramel. Oh.

[Christine]

So it's like, oh, I know those. I think I know the British version

[Emma]

with like the curly whirlies is the British version, I think.

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Emma]

All right, well, that's. I don't know why you wouldn't finish that. Okay.

[Christine]

Yeah, I don't know. So they find all the wrappers and the keys are not in the ignition. So at first they're thinking like, like, okay, maybe the car died. So the police hotwire the car, but it starts immediately and it has a quarter tank of gas. So it didn't run out of. Out of gas engine fully functional. They looked underneath the car, no dents, no damage. Meaning like whoever drove this had been driving very careful. Carefully and cautiously. So they assumed Jack had driven it because he took such careful care of this car. And it had clearly been like driven very slowly up this mountainous road for some reason. They found no damage underneath. The tires had spun a little bit in the snow, but it was so out in the. It was not in a spot where it would have been stuck. Like five men especially, they were like very, very like able bodied. They would have been able to pretty easily push this.

[Emma]

They were in their athletic prime, it sounds like.

[Christine]

Right? Exactly. I mean they're training for a basketball game. Exactly. So they, it wasn't an issue of like, like, oh, their car was stuck and they couldn't get out and there was no other option. Like so just really strange already. Right. So as this had happened, a severe blizzard, like I mentioned, was hitting at that exact time. Feet of snow were coming through. And for that reason, search and rescue teams were also unable, once after they'd found the car, to do much until they. The snow, you know, melted. So now we fast forward to June of 1978. The winter snow is melting when motorcyclists contact police and say they had been riding off road and they had stumbled into a u. S. Forest service trailer near the Daniel zink campground. The trailer was located roughly 20 miles from where madruga's car had been abandoned. And when they approached this trailer, they immediately noticed a smell of decomposition, which is why they looked inside, they saw a body and they contacted police. And honestly, if they had not discovered this just kind of off roading that day, I wouldn't know when. Yeah, yeah, this would have gotten discovered or been discovered. Police arrive inside, they find the body of Ted. Weird. He's lying on a bed, he's been like neatly wrapped head to toe in eight thick heavy cotton blankets. He the by the autopsy revealed he had died of starvation and hypothermia. And when they found him, he. So before he had disappeared, he was 6 foot 200 pounds. He at this point they estimated he had lost around 80 to 100 pounds and was now about 100 to 120 pounds. That's he had started starved that rapidly in a matter of weeks slash months.

[Emma]

Oh my God.

[Christine]

They used his beard growth to indicate how long he had been alive in the cabin, which is just also so morbid. And his beard growth indicated that he had survived inside this unheated trailer for between 8 to 13 weeks.

[Emma]

Oh my God.

[Christine]

Yeah, he had starved to death over those months and had also suffered frostbite. And his shoes were missing from the house. Here's the strangest part, which a sheriff's deputy called bizarre as hell. This trailer was an emergency forest service trailer and it had been equipped to the gills to keep people alive.

[Emma]

What the. And they. He didn't use any of some of it.

[Christine]

Like it get. Oh, it's so chilling. Okay, so inside the trailer storage lockers, there were dozens of unopened sea ra cans of food. There was a propane tank outside that all you had to do was like, turn a knob. There was enough. There was enough food in these lockers to keep all five men fed and warm for over one year. Wow, five. All five of them. And there are disputes on whether all five were at the cabin at one point or not. It's very much giving yellow jackets. Speaking of another disturbing show that is very good, but also, like, requires proper state of mind. Fine.

[Emma]

How many people have we found so far? Two.

[Christine]

Just one.

[Emma]

Just one. Okay.

[Christine]

Yeah, we found the car and then now we found Ted in the cabin. In the cabin, yes. And they found. They found that only 12 to 15 cans were ever opened over like a two to three month period. Now, they had been open with a military style. It's called a P38 can opener, which only two of the men would have known how to use because they had done military service, which was. Was Gary. Gary Maas and Jack Madruga.

[Emma]

So maybe Ted didn't know how to open the food.

[Christine]

Exactly. So that could have been. But also there were like fruit cups and other rations. And also like, he had been suffering from this frostbite and stuff. But there was a propane tank right outside the building. And so it was strange that like, nobody, especially if somebody was able to use the military can opener, somebody was able to use it.

[Emma]

Right.

[Christine]

To open 12 to 15 of them.

[Emma]

Them.

[Christine]

You'd think they would have figured out the propane tank or to bring it inside and heat up the place. There was also. There were matches, a fireplace. Like none of this was used, which is so strange. Now, they also found fruit cups, other rations, paperback books, like just stuff that was there to keep the place, like, livable. Yeah, exactly. Like an emergency shelter. And like none of that was touched, which is so strange to me. Me even. No, you know, at any level, it's just strange. So when they found his body, of course, so, so tragic. They found next to him his ring, his necklace, his wallet with money in it. We're all on the nightstand there Was a watch there too, that didn't belong to him. And when they asked all the parents, they were like, none of our boys own that watch. So nobody knows where the watch came from. Like, it could very well have just been left at the emergency trailer by

[Emma]

somebody, the last person who was there.

[Christine]

Yeah, exactly. So we don't necessarily know if it meant any thing, but it was like laid out with his jewelry, which was interesting. Weir shoes were also missing from the trailer, like I said. But in the trailer they found Gary Matthias's sneakers. So police theorized that, like, Gary had been there and was able to open the cans and that kind of thing. And if he were also suffering from like, swelling feet from frostbite, maybe he put on Weir's boots because they were bigger and more comfortable, you know, to wrap his feet up and put his feet in, which I think makes sense. And if he were to leave the trailer, he's clearly not in it when they find Ted. So it's like that's why the other

[Emma]

guy shoes are missing then.

[Christine]

Precisely, yes.

[Emma]

And then he went missing and never came back. So he couldn't open any more of the food.

[Christine]

That. That is my theory as well.

[Emma]

Yeah, that makes sense.

[Christine]

I think that is my theory because. But you'll see there's like so many rabbit holes and like twists and turns that, I mean, there are like, like multiple hour long YouTube videos that I watch but was like, I cannot, I cannot do like, maybe for the 500th oops. But like, you know, it's. It's a lot. So I'm trying to stick to most of just like the basics. But yeah, you can go down so many rabbit holes and like, there have been like, investigators and online folks who've been obsessed and in healthy ways, maybe not so healthy ways, and have tried to get to the bottom of different parts of it. So you can really dig into it. But I'll give you the. The most. The big. The big bullet points here. So regarding the other men. Monday, June 5th. So that was the following day. Searchers found the remains of Jack Madruga and Bill Sterling. They were on the. They were on opposite sides of the Mountain Road, roughly 4.3 miles away from the. Where the car had been abandoned en route to the trailer. And so when they found the bodies, they had been heavily scavenged by animals. The cause of death was hypothermia. So it's presumed that they didn't make it past four miles on the walk to the trailer.

[Emma]

Okay.

[Christine]

And there was a snowplow of Some sort that had gone through and paved an actual path. So there was a path that they were able to walk but 20 miles during a blizzard. And these, these kids are not, these young adults are not like dressed for the elements. Also. None of them had any. Any I like. This was one thing I found interesting. None of them had any like outdoorsy experience. They just weren't the type and they weren't interested. One of them had gone camping a few years prior, but then like said, no, I don't want to do that anymore. Like didn't like it.

[Emma]

Understood.

[Christine]

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[Emma]

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[Christine]

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[Emma]

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[Christine]

So they found these two. And some people think like maybe some people. I listened to the stuff you should know episode on this, which I will always be embarrassed for calling it things you should know. Stuff you should know. Did a good episode on this case. But they mentioned like there were just. They had both seen different facts about this, that maybe Ted had gotten sick or was really not well. And so the boys all went to get help and that's how they died. But I think the prevailing theory that I've read is that the two boys didn't make it or three didn't make it on the way to the trailer because they found 24 miles from the car and that's a long hike for not being prepared in any way.

[Emma]

Was there, like, this is stupid, but like, could they have been like attacked by a bear or something?

[Christine]

Like, no, because their cause of death was hypothermia. So then. So the tube that they found. Yes, the one in the cabin was starvation and hypothermia, Right?

[Emma]

No, the other ones that they found out.

[Christine]

Yes. So the two bodies had died of hypotherm. Both of those men had died of hypothermia. And then animals got to their bodies afterward.

[Emma]

Afterwards. Okay.

[Christine]

Yes. Yes, there was a blizzard out, so there was like. No, it was just a total like snowstorm when they were out there. But also like, again, why are they going up there? They have a car that's functioning just fine. Like, why are you walking up here? It's like so strange.

[Emma]

Could it have been because it was so cold that their car stalled or something and like.

[Christine]

No, I mean, like, they just, they just hot wired it and turned right on when the police came. So I don't. And he like, knew his car, you know, like, he was very. I mean, I can understand him maybe insisting, like, I don't want to drive my car in this, but also, like to get out at midnight in the middle of a snowstorm and walk. I mean, so it's been argued, right? Like, well, you know, they had a disability and it's like, sure, I get. I guess, yes, that may have played a part. It's just really unclear how much of a part. And like. Yeah, do you know what I mean? It's really, it requires a lot of nuance because you just hear different angles from all the different families. And like they were all dealing with different. Yeah, it's just strange. And like, they were all very close. So it's like they, they had such a tight bond. Maybe they were just trying to stick together, you know, it's hard to say.

[Emma]

Also, with some of them having mental health factors, you don't want to like, like use that as the full reasoning of like, what their judgment or what their ability to make decisions was, especially when they're panicked and scared.

[Christine]

Right. And that's the other thing is like, yeah, maybe it was a situation where they freaked out. Like, maybe they hit a snow, you know, like a, maybe they spun the car or something and were like, who knows? Right.

[Emma]

Could there have been a situation where they were like, how far away was the car from the cabin and all that? Because. Could they have gone back out, look for the car? Okay, because I was gonna say maybe they went to look for the car

[Christine]

and they just got to go get the car and they just got.

[Emma]

Got spun around and they just couldn't.

[Christine]

They were on the right path. They were just only four miles.

[Emma]

Oh, well. Yeah. Maybe they were trying to get the car and they just didn't make it very well.

[Christine]

Could be. I think the prevailing theory is that they didn't even make it to the cabin. Like, they died on the way to the cabin, which I'm not sure of that. That's just where I read in most reports.

[Emma]

So, man, that's.

[Christine]

That's what I think happened. And then they had to leave them obviously behind and keep walking this path and then find the trailer.

[Emma]

That has to be so sad to watch to just fucking leave your friends in the snow. Jesus Christ.

[Christine]

I know.

[Emma]

Oh, my God.

[Christine]

So now we get to the point of, like, whether Matthias is, like, whether his schizophrenia played a part or not. It's like. Well, now his daily antipsychotics are not here. So whether he was stable at the time of disappearance and. And by all accounts was healthy and had no issues. And then all of a sudden, like, he's out in the wilderness with none of his medication in a traumatizing situation, like, who knows what happened, Right?

[Emma]

Yeah.

[Christine]

And he had had. Post army, he had had several what his dad called, like, hysteric fits or something. Like, something like, so old school, where he called them just like, oh, another one of those, like, hissy fits. Not really. Yeah, something like that where you're like,

[Emma]

okay, one of his spats or something.

[Christine]

Something. Something like where you're like, I. So. But so basically, he had had incidents before, like, violent outbursts, and that's why he was medicated. And the medication was working very well. But obviously it doesn't bode well to remember to know that he has had. Off medication. Has had some very violent and paranoid, you know, outbursts, so. Or whatever. Whatever dad wants to call it.

[Emma]

Sure.

[Christine]

So this is probably the creepiest part. To me.

[Emma]

It keeps getting worse. Christine. I thought.

[Christine]

No, I know. It gives me chills. It really is. So right around the time that they're discovering the car, Joe's local man named Joseph Shones comes forward to police and he says he has a really odd story to tell. And it is a really odd story, Em. So just like. Like, okay. Makes my stomach feel weird. I don't Know. So he stated he had been driving up a mountain road on the evening of February 24th to check his cabin, but his truck got stuck in a snow bank, and so he is getting out. Actually, it says truck, but I'm pretty sure he drove a Volkswagen Beetle, so I don't know why I wrote truck, but I'm pretty sure it was a Volkswagen Beetle.

[Emma]

Girly Truck. Yeah, super.

[Christine]

Specifically. Yeah. Like, my other car is a truck. Okay. But so he. Whatever is. Whatever sources is what I use. But he got out and he was attempting to push his car, and he had a heart attack. He began to suffer a heart attack. And so he climbs back. He climbs back into his car, turns the heat on, and is like, I know. Like, I'm just gonna, like, wait it out.

[Emma]

Jesus Christ.

[Christine]

Middle of a blizzard, right?

[Emma]

Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

[Christine]

What a horrible, horrible.

[Emma]

Oh, my God.

[Christine]

So he. He just kind of lays in his vehicle in severe pain with the heater running and is like, I hope someone finds me before I run out of gas, basically.

[Emma]

Jesus.

[Christine]

He claims around 11:30pm that night, he began to hear whistling.

[Emma]

Okay.

[Christine]

He got out of his car and saw headlights, parked a ways behind his truck and heard a group of people approaching and was like, oh, thank God. God, I am going to be rescued. He saw what he described as five men and a woman holding a baby, holding flashlights and walking up this, like, snowy hill.

[Emma]

Okay.

[Christine]

He says he called out for help, but they immediately all went quiet and turned off their flashlights. And he kind of like, to be

[Emma]

fair, if you're mid heart attack, you're yelling for help, probably just sounds like. Like a. Like a. Probably scared them.

[Christine]

It probably did scare them. Yes. But I feel like if you're like, hey, I need help. I've had a heart attack.

[Emma]

Oh, was he verbalizing, I don't know, kind of moaning?

[Christine]

Well, no, because, I mean, I will say true, it was. Okay, good question, because they also mentioned this on the podcast that he. It was a mild heart attack. And he. The next morning was able to walk, like, eight miles back to where. I think it was eight miles back to where he had last, like, had a drink that night before his car got stuck. So, like, he. It was mild enough that, like, by the next morning, he was, like, walking eight miles. Okay. Damn.

[Emma]

So he's probably verbalizing.

[Christine]

So I think at this point he probably was able to, like, at least express, like, hey, something's wrong. I need help, whatever. But any. Either way, like, they turn off the flashlights and go quiet. He says, Nobody would answer his cries for help. And he eventually got back to the lodge and was able to seek medical attention. And police are like, okay, like, I don't know what this. At first, when they told. When he told them this, they were like, I don't know what this has to do with anything. And he goes, oh, on the way down, I saw a car as well. It must have been theirs. And they were like, what kind of car? And he said, well, it was this teal or turquoise Mercury Montego. And they were like, oh, it. And he's like, yeah, it was just empty, sitting there. So basically now there's like a sighting, like a potential sighting, and with a stranger involved, like a woman with a

[Emma]

baby, which I could. I. I don't know, obviously what happened, but I could see.

[Christine]

Hallucination. Oh.

[Emma]

Oh, I was.

[Christine]

I'm sorry. That's what they call. That's what they think. It's a medical hallucination. That, like, maybe he just was seeing things. Like. But also then I'm like, but then why did he see five men? That was a correct description. But then just like, my thought was,

[Emma]

I. I could have seen someone, like, if they maybe. I don't know, their ability to make judgments or anything like that. But if they were missing this basketball game and, like, all this stuff that they. I could see them at the gas station meeting a woman with a baby who said, help, I need a ride. And then it's just. She just kept going and going and going and going into the woods or something. And them feeling like they couldn't say no, or they thought it was going to be a shorter drive, and it just kept. It just never.

[Christine]

Okay, so, I mean, you're like, onto something because the parents at the time especially were like, there is somebody else involved. Like, our kids would not have just driven up a random mountain for miles. Like, somebody else is either involved or, like, something really wrong happened. But, like, this is not just them being careless, you know, I definitely think

[Emma]

there was somebody else involved.

[Christine]

So what do you think the motive would have been? Like, Like a motive or just like, she really needed a ride or was it, like, to, like. I don't know.

[Emma]

I feel like. I mean, I always go straight into, like, some sort of trafficking, which wouldn't really make sense with four teenage boys, but maybe like, robbing them, like, trying to drive them out into the middle of nowhere to them.

[Christine]

But remember, they found the wallet with his money still in it and stuff, and he had just starved to death out there. It's just so Strange. And like where did she go? And like maybe they.

[Emma]

She really needed a drive or a ride. But then it was dark and it was starting a blizzard, so she even got lost and didn't know where to tell them to drop her off. And then they all ended up it up. But then like, like, but then where the is she?

[Christine]

You know, that's terrible too that she had a baby with her. Right? And it's like, well, did anybody report that person missing? But I don't think there was any report of a woman missing. So it could have.

[Emma]

Maybe they did drop her off and then they were trying to get home and they got turned around.

[Christine]

But then like, why are they but all five wandering?

[Emma]

Oh, right.

[Christine]

They saw her and he's like, oh, they were whistling. It's just so creepy. I mean, I don't know. Yeah, like walking up the road and so then he's like, oh, on my way back I saw their car and the police were like, oh, then that, that was definitely them. So yeah, very disturbing. They do eventually find, like I said, the body of Ted in the cat in the trailer. They find the bodies on June 5th of. Of Jack and Bill about four miles from the car on route to the trailer, presumably and heavily scavenged by animals. Cause of death is hypothermia. And then Tuesday. And this one's rough too because. Because Jack Hewitt was the only. Jack Hewitt and Gary Matthias were the only ones who were still missing at this point. And Jack Hewitt's dad wanted to be part of the search party and police were like, you shouldn't do that. But he insisted. And he found his son's clothes and when he picked a piece of it up, a spine fell out. And so he. I know, I'm sorry, but that's how it is described in all the reporting. I know, I'm sorry. It's horrible. Horrible.

[Emma]

And so that was like a bear attack or something? Like how else?

[Christine]

No, no, it was just a scavenged by. I mean he'd been out there.

[Emma]

Oh, oh, I see.

[Christine]

And so like he just had found a piece of his like clothes or whatever and like. Yeah, it's horrible. Yeah, it's really horrible. So he was able to identify that like the shoes and clothes were his sons. Now Gary's body was never located. To this day we still don't know where Gary is.

[Emma]

I mean like if all that was left of someone who was found was a spine, like it. All it takes is one more animal picking up the spine and a couple

[Christine]

more winters of, you know, or, you know, years and decades of. Yeah, yeah. And that's like, what I. I mean, that's what I assume.

[Emma]

Just. I think just got taken away. Yeah.

[Christine]

Something just. Yeah. So search crews did find the tennis shoes with Weir, which we know, leading investigators to believe that, like, that he just switched shoes when he went out because his feet were probably swollen from. Or maybe he wanted to put on, like, extra socks or, you know, whatever. So here are some other, like, theories slash unexplained parts of this that, like, just are worth noting. So there is no explained connection between any of the young men and the town of Quincy or Plumas National Forest. They had never expressed interest in visiting. Gary was said to have some, like, former friends who lived like, a town, like, past it. But they even. They were like, no, there's no reason he would have driven here, especially in the middle of the night, and we haven't even heard from him in years. And also, like, they had this game tomorrow and it was important to all five of them. And I don't think any of them would have been like, yeah, let's go for a joyride until a. Up a mountain for no reason. It's just so strange. And they knew their way home. They had four maps that were like, very clearly here's mountain. You know, it's not like they couldn't figure that out. It's just so strange. And the amount of time he took to drive miles up the snowy road with that little car is like, for what? But you're right. Like, maybe it is that they picked someone up and we're giving them a ride.

[Emma]

I think that's what it was. I'm pretty confident that that's what it was.

[Christine]

It feels like what it would be. He hate like, he himself, Madruga, whose car it was. Like, he hated to drive in snow. He hated his car getting dirty. Right. Like, none of them even like being cold. He like. It's just so strange. The other thing is, like, walking that long distance through the woods to get to this trailer. It's like, I guess there was a paved path, but like. Like the fact that they didn't get in the warm slash like, functional car and drive back down the mountain instead of up it. And. And if you were gonna walk 20 miles, wouldn't you walk back down the mountain? Because then you'd get back to where you were. It's just so strange. Maybe one of them knew. Now I see. I don't know. Now another theory is that, like, maybe. Maybe they had, like, qualms about like. No, that doesn't make sense either. I hate that theory. That makes me mad. It's a theory about, like, them not understanding, like, ethics or morals or something. And I'm like, I don't think so. I'm not even gonna go there. So there is. Some people have theorized that, like, perhaps Gary. Gary's mental illness. Illness did play a part here. Like, unlike the other four men who had intellectual or developmental disabilities, Gary Matthias had average intelligence, military experience, but paranoid schizophrenia as well. And he required that daily medication, and he left home without it. I mean, obviously he thought he was coming back, so.

[Emma]

Right,

[Christine]

right. But also, I mean, some people have speculated and this is like, maybe a reach, because how on earth can you speculate this? And I don't have enough sources, but someone was saying, well, maybe he did want to take the meds before the game, because they did. His parents did say they made him very drowsy, which he didn't like. So it's like some people argued maybe he didn't take his meds because he wanted to be fit for the basketball. It doesn't matter either way. Like, you know, some people have said perhaps, like, he had some sort of episode and, like, convinced them and they didn't maybe understand his. His illness.

[Emma]

Right.

[Christine]

Enough to know, like, that this was an episode of paranoid schizophrenia rather than like a real scenario. So maybe he did have an episode and like, somehow led them up this path by force or by just convincing your conviction. You know, I'm not sure. It's like, really?

[Emma]

How could be anything.

[Christine]

You really couldn't know. Yeah.

[Emma]

And it could. It could have nothing to do with him. It could exactly, totally have everything to do with him. I mean, we. It could be any of it. Yeah.

[Christine]

Yeah. And so, you know, it was like, of course people were side eyeing, you know, because it's like, well.

[Emma]

Oh, and she's gone.

[Christine]

Hello?

[Emma]

Are you all right?

[Christine]

Oh, dear. That's creepy. Oh, hold on one moment.

[Emma]

It was like the credits said, starring Christine.

[Christine]

It was. I just realized my camera died. I forgot to. I forgot to plug it in. So no worries. The, like, the like, cam link thing logo showed up. Okay.

[Emma]

I was like, wow, fade to black.

[Christine]

Okay. That talk about like a vaudeville came like, bye. Pull the plug on me. Okay, so the shoe swap thing kind of like proves to people that Matthias was in the trailer with Weir. Especially if he was one of the people who could open the cans. And if the other one had already died on the way there, it's like, well, then maybe he was the one who was there helping open the cans. And I. Like the thing you said. Right off the bat, I was like, that makes the most sense to me that for whatever reason, they ended up up there. But part of me is like, then why did he starve over a months of long time and not like, turn on a. I don't know.

[Emma]

This is. I don't. I don't know anything, obviously, but I would feel like if that woman and the baby existed, I could see them saying, like, here, you know, take some food with you, as when you find. And here's the can opener or something, and we'll figure out how to open the rest of the can.

[Christine]

Well, the can opener was there.

[Emma]

Oh, was there?

[Christine]

It was just. Only. Only two of them would have really known how to use it because it was like some specialty. But, like, there was also food that didn't require, which, like, maybe they didn't know it was in the locker. And I think Ted was, like, missing his toes. Like, I think he had really suffered this hypothermia. But it's also so strange that nobody thought to, like, turn on the propane tank right outside or, like, start a fire in the fireplace.

[Emma]

And I. But we don't know their mental level.

[Christine]

We don't know. No. And we don't know. And they're able to operate a car.

[Emma]

Must have known how to do something.

[Christine]

That's what I'm saying. It's like, it's so hard to know because it's like, we don't even know if all five of them made it to the cabin or if two of them died on the way or three of them died on. It's so hard to know. And so, like, I think it makes sense that if three of them made it, the two who died, like, right near each other, if they passed away on the way to the cabin. And then the three remaining. Maybe Ted was. This is also what they said in stuff you should know. But, like, maybe Ted was in, like, really bad shape. And so Gary was like, oh, you know, you go get help to Jack. And maybe he went to go or to find the car, like you said, and, like, went off trying to find it, got lost, died. And then Gary eventually was like, well, I can only open this many cans and, like, have to go look for help myself, you know, or something.

[Emma]

Or both of them left at the same time. Or wait, he was. He was found, right?

[Christine]

But also, like, he was layered in blankets over, like, head to toe. I don't know.

[Emma]

I was gonna say, what if they said, you're clearly in a bad spot. You just sit here by yourself and I'll open some cans for you.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Emma]

And we're both going to leave and go find the car.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Emma]

And then that's why he was completely by himself and didn't. Probably didn't need to know how to use the can opener if he thought they were going to come back within the next day.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Emma]

Also, like, what year was it? Because I know, like, if I saw a can opener from them 10 or 15 years before, I'd be like, what the. Is that? Like. Yeah, they can openers, they come in all shapes and sizes, and sometimes I've looked at them and didn't even know they were a candle. No, no.

[Christine]

This one you, like, need to be trained to use. I guess it was like.

[Emma]

Yeah.

[Christine]

So military grade to open. He might have just been.

[Emma]

That doesn't explain the fruit cups, though.

[Christine]

Well, but it does if he doesn't have toes and he can't walk. And maybe he's so ill that, like, he can't get out to the shed.

[Emma]

And also, maybe he's. Because, you know, they say when you're frostbitten, like, your brain chemistry tells you you're, like, boiling hot. Like, and that's why they find a lot of people naked. Like, maybe he just wasn't even. Maybe he'd lost all ability to even know that he was hungry.

[Christine]

Like, maybe they had, like, left pretty early on and only left him with a certain amount of food and he had just, like, rationed it. I don't know. It's terrible either way, but. Yeah, but it also is just so strange that, like, there's no explanation for any of it, like, why they even were there or why they even went off the wrong road. It's just so weird.

[Emma]

And you don't think it's like, a. Like a murderer? Because otherwise, like, they. I mean, I don't think it's a murderer, but, like, to just leave so much evidence of.

[Christine]

Well, the family saw. Some of the families thought it was foul play. They were. Like, they wouldn't have just been up there. Like, someone was either rationing the food and not allowing them to eat or like someone was holding them hostage. But it's also, like, who and why was it, like, the woman with.

[Emma]

And then why would they leave his body there unless they thought no one was ever gonna see him?

[Christine]

So strange. All of it doesn't really. Like, none of it really makes sense.

[Emma]

Maybe the woman. I mean, also, I. I would have, like, the someone told him the food wasn't good or it was spoiled or something like. I don't know what. I mean, I would still eat rotten food if I was that hungry. But maybe they were told. Maybe the woman, if she was there, told them, like, oh, don't eat that food, because that's. I don't know. I have no fucking idea.

[Christine]

I have no fucking idea. I mean. I mean, but food like that. Yeah, I know. I mean, but why?

[Emma]

I don't know. I have no idea.

[Christine]

It's just so strange. So. And then it's because, you know, they never found Gary's remains also that, like, there's lingering suspicion among, like, armchair, you know, researchers and stuff that, like, he could have survived, but I really doubt it. I think. I think it's a scenario where, like, just the most tragic thing happened and, like. Like it went as badly as it could have gone. And, like, who knows what happened or how they got there. But I mean, like, Gary had been medically stable for two years. Actually, in a 2020 internal sheriff's memo, they. They said Matthias. That Gary Matthias was actually a presumed victim of foul play. And so, like, even the sheriff's department was like, we don't think he had anything to do with it, like, in terms of, like, causing it or creating it, the problem. But yeah, it's just really, like, intentionally. But yeah, it's really strange. But it's also strange they said he could be a victim of foul play, though, because it's like, by who then? Like, I don't know, man. And they. I gotta get more answers on this one, dude.

[Emma]

That's the thing. I have no idea.

[Christine]

It's just so sad and strange.

[Emma]

Yeah. Wow. And what. And what's this one called?

[Christine]

The U. Well, some people call it the disappearance of Gary Matthias because they never found his body or him. But The Yuba County 5 is what it's also also commonly referred to.

[Emma]

I feel like that's something I'm gonna watch a lot of the YouTube videos on.

[Christine]

Yeah, it's really worth, like. Like going down some rabbit holes because I feel like. Like it's been simplified in so many. It's been simplified to just like, oh, well, they just didn't know how to do anything. And it's like, no, you know, it's not that something happened.

[Emma]

Yeah.

[Christine]

So that's all I got for you.

[Emma]

I can't imagine the headache it was to even have to research that. That sounds like a lot of miss. A lot of loose arms, loose branches off a tree.

[Christine]

Yeah, well, I mean, I'M fortunate that so many people have already researched it that it's kind of like, okay, there's a pretty SOL narrative here. I just had to pick and choose, like, which rabbit holes to go down, which ones to not and. Etc, Man. Yeah.

[Emma]

I mean, you know, I love an unsolved mystery, but.

[Christine]

But also hate it. Yeah.

[Emma]

Matt. I can't solve it.

[Christine]

It's rough.

[Emma]

One of these days I'm gonna solve one of them and I'm every. You'll all see. You know, all of you are gonna go, holy. They did it.

[Christine]

It's finally been done. They said it couldn't be done. It's been done.

[Emma]

Yeah. Wow. That'll be a great day.

[Christine]

Great day.

[Emma]

No. What's your gut feeling? Final thoughts?

[Christine]

I think that I have no idea.

[Emma]

I think that woman was. I think there was a woman with a baby. I think, or I think there was someone. I don't know who, but someone asked for a ride or did something that brought them out there. I don't think they just did it for fun.

[Christine]

Yeah, no, see, that doesn't make sense. I think your version is the most compelling, and I don't know why that's not discussed more often. So I'm sort of like, that seems reasonable. I don't know why it's not. Maybe it is a main theory that I missed, but I feel like that's.

[Emma]

It feels like. Like if you're holding a baby and there's five, like, sensitive guys who might feel like they have to say yes

[Christine]

and want to, like, be. Do the right thing. Yeah.

[Emma]

I don't know how they would all fit in a car unless it can sit than five people.

[Christine]

Okay, so this car I do know apparently is, like, real. It's like a doozy of a car. Like a stepdad called them like a land boat.

[Emma]

Okay. Well, yeah. Then I would think that she said, can you give me a ride? And then either it ends up being way farther.

[Christine]

They probably got lost, she thought.

[Emma]

Or they got lost. Or they heard about the blizzard and thought maybe they should park for a second. And then it got super cold while they thought they'd wait out the storm so they had to go find shelter.

[Christine]

Imagine, like a baby crying through it.

[Emma]

A baby.

[Christine]

I mean, I'm serious. Like, that sounds.

[Emma]

Or maybe they. Maybe that woman was also in the cabin with them at some point. And.

[Christine]

True. Like, nobody probably would have even thought of that.

[Emma]

And maybe she took some of the food to help her out while she, like, just walked to go.

[Christine]

Like, you don't light a Fire? I mean, I don't know. Come on. Like, you don't light a fire. You don't.

[Emma]

Like, yeah, maybe none of them knew how to use a propane tank. I don't know how to use one.

[Christine]

No, literally, though, there's matches in the room and fire. I mean, it's all set up to be like a survival thing. And there's literally propane tank. And they made the point of saying, like, you just turn a knob. And one of them worked for, like, a gardening business. I mean, these are like. They're not like outdoorsy people, but they're, like, handy, you know, enough. I mean, you'd think. But maybe not. Maybe, like, if three of them don't survive on the way there, it's like, first of all, traumatizing. Maybe the woman and the baby didn't survive. And that was traumatizing. And, like, now there's.

[Emma]

Right.

[Christine]

Two guys left and they're trying to. And one doesn't have his medication. You know, like, it could have been anything that, like, we just don't even know.

[Emma]

I think that's a good point. I think maybe the woman and the baby didn't survive and they all surprised, just got picked up and carried away.

[Christine]

Who knows? Yeah, because, I mean, there was a description like that the land can just kind of. In that. That just sort of over seasons, like, you know, I mean, you just kind of lose track of.

[Emma]

Or I wonder if there was ever. If there was a woman and a baby or someone who lured them out there. Maybe they already got dropped off and then they by themselves got lost. And maybe the guy who swears that he saw. Saw five guys and a woman with a baby. Maybe he just miscounted. And it was the five guys, and one of them was, like, holding the other one while they were walking through the.

[Christine]

While they were walking or carrying just like a backpack. Who knows, like a. Their basketball bag or something. Who knows? Yeah, but yeah, it's good point, because me. So maybe something else lured them there, but he misinterpreted the group and, like, yeah, great. Or not even lured them there. Like, maybe somebody had just, like, said, I need a ride, and then, like, got dropped off and then they got lost or something.

[Emma]

And then they got lost and. And. And they had to go find somewhere.

[Christine]

What's weird is, like, leaving the car there also, like.

[Emma]

Yeah. I mean, with a.

[Christine]

With. With gas turning off.

[Emma]

When you just sit in the heated

[Christine]

car and the heater. They took the keys with them. It was just strange.

[Emma]

And they clearly didn't leave because they were like super hungry.

[Christine]

The trailer was on a map. Like, maybe they had a map that showed the trailer and they were able to like, oh, maybe, maybe that's unreasonable. I'm not sure.

[Emma]

It is interesting that they happened to find a cabin in the woods that had all these things.

[Christine]

But I think that's why it was mentioned that like snowplow had paved like a pretty flat path. And so I think like they were following a path, but it was like a 20 mile, like, and dark blizzard in middle of the night, dark.

[Emma]

So you could very easily fall off the path.

[Christine]

And they were barely. Well, no, I think they were like snowed in basically. But like, oh, like walls, you know, they were like. But it's. They, you know, to get hypothermia there. You're pretty right. Like four miles into the hike, it's like, like you either keep going or go back.

[Emma]

And I'll tell you, everyone was having a bad time on that road because even that other guy was having a heart attack in them.

[Christine]

Starts with a guy having a heart attack being like, oh, I saw something really weird. And they're like, it's a hallucination. Like, no, it's five people who died.

[Emma]

Yeah, it sounds like if he was able to walk eight miles the next day, I don't think he was having a hallucination mid heart attack.

[Christine]

I mean, it could be maybe.

[Emma]

I don't know. I don't know, man. I think we've. I think we've answered some questions for people also.

[Christine]

The. It's just. I can't. Yeah, I would just stop. I would just never stop. So anyway, well, thank you for listening to our podcast. If you'd like to follow us on socials where Megan takes these moments and turns them into just nice bites, perfect clips, little, little treats. You can find us at ATWWD podcast and otherwise wise. I have to pee, so I'm going to bolt.

[Emma]

Okay. And that's why we drink.

[Christine]

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[Emma]

Oh, these just the most perfect fitting

[Christine]

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