E492 Peanut Butter Relationships and Bagel Traumas

Summary

And That's Why We Drink

Episode 492: Peanut Butter Relationships and Bagel Traumas
Release Date: August 2, 2026
Hosts: Christine Schiefer & Em Schulz

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Overview

This episode of "And That's Why We Drink" blends its signature mix of lighthearted banter, relatable food quirks, and dark true crime and paranormal stories. Christine and Em recount tales of food sensitivities, peanut butter obsessions, nostalgic bagel preferences, and dive into a ghost story from Australia’s Princess Theatre. The true crime segment unpacks the harrowing case of the kidnapping and murder of 8-year-old Chad Choice, weaving in themes of community, grief, and resilience.

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Table of Contents

• Food Sensitivities & Peanut Butter Confessions (01:15–16:14)
• Bagel Preferences and Snack Nostalgia (14:32–19:22)
• Tarot Card Collections and Decluttering (07:12–12:10)
• Haunted Princess Theatre: History and Ghost Stories (22:01–47:27)
• True Crime Segment: The Case of Chad Choice (53:30–89:56)
• Community Healing and Legacy (87:46–89:56)
• Notable Quotes
• Key Timestamps

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1. Food Sensitivities & Peanut Butter Confessions

Timestamps: 01:15–16:14

• Christine and Em talk candidly about their bodies' weird reactions to certain foods and scents. Christine references mysterious sternum and appetite issues; Em details an intense aversion to jasmine and vanilla scents.
• Christine: “I’ve never been able to eat, like, stevia or aspartame or anything. It immediately makes my throat swell...” (03:12)
• They bond over the awkwardness of food allergies, missing out on cultural "diet soda" moments, and lament how altering recipes impacts simple food joys (Diet Coke “vibes,” “yellow top” kosher Coke).
• Em and Christine debate peanut butter in smoothies—which for Christine is a must, but for Em, “tropical smoothies” are sacrosanct.
• Christine confides about a childhood story of eating a blueberry bagel with peanut butter, shamed out of it by a friend.
• Christine: “Maybe that’s why I’m always having anaphylactic shock. Okay, fine.” (15:24)

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2. Bagel Preferences and Snack Nostalgia

Timestamps: 14:32–19:22

• Em describes a lifelong trauma of searching for the right kind of strawberry cream cheese, only to be disappointed by “neon pink” or overly gourmet versions.
• Christine reassures Em’s longing for “processed, pink, plain” strawberry cream cheese is relatable.
• Em: “Unless I’m near a Noah’s or an Einstein’s, I’ll never be happy in bagel land.” (19:12)
• A humorous, nostalgic riff follows about bagel shop disappointments while on tour, food comfort, and the challenges of being a picky eater in unfamiliar places.

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3. Tarot Card Collections and Decluttering

Timestamps: 07:12–12:10

• Em and Allison’s weekend decluttering turns into a game of playing old board games and rediscovering tarot decks.
• Christine estimates she owns 15–20 tarot decks and shares the sentimental story of her oldest deck, and a mysterious “Beloved Ancestor” deck gifted by someone named Cat.
• Em mentions their fandom-themed decks (Pokemon, Back to the Future, Neopets), sparking Christine’s geeky excitement over her Neopets tarot set.
• Christine: “That one is so cool because you can tap into which ancestral energies you’re working with... Sometimes I’ll pull up somebody’s creepy grandpa.” (09:13)

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4. Haunted Princess Theatre: History and Ghost Stories

Timestamps: 22:01–47:27

History

• Em presents the history of Melbourne’s Princess Theatre—Australia’s oldest entertainment venue—with fun facts:
  • Built during Victoria’s gold rush (1850s), changed hands and names many times, finally becoming the Princess Theatre.
  • Notably featured the world’s first retractable roof.
  • Hosted shows like Les Mis, Phantom of the Opera (Australia’s longest-running show), and underwent a $6.5 million Harry Potter-themed renovation (2018).
• Memorable banter includes confusion over UK vs. US heritage register terms, and Christine mistaking “yellow top” Coke for a manager's uniform.

The Ghost Story

• The theatre’s resident ghost: Frederick "Federici" Baker (real name Anatole Frederick Demidoff Baker), an opera singer who died of a heart attack during the final scene of "Faust" in 1888—while descending through a trapdoor as the devil leading a soul to hell.
• Federici’s ghost was reportedly seen bowing at curtain call even after he died backstage.
  • “People were like, what do you mean he’s dead? He just did his bow.” (41:03, Em)
• Paranormal lore includes lights glitching, feelings of being touched, sightings of Federici in the dress circle, and sometimes manifesting as a dark, cat-eyed shadow—tying into theatrical folklore (Mephistopheles and "Cats" musical crossovers).
  • “He’s seen during rehearsals, making motions that suggest he’s critically judging them...” (43:09)
• The staff reserve his favorite seat on opening night as an offering for good luck and even named the in-house restaurant “Federici.”
• Em muses about a restaurant run by ghost preferences via Ouija board or dowsing rods.

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5. True Crime Segment: The Case of Chad Choice

Timestamps: 53:30–89:56

Chad’s Disappearance and the Years of Torment

• Christine recounts the 1991 abduction of 8-year-old Chad Choice in Tyler, Texas—vanished in the early morning, no sign of forced entry, immediate suspicions turn to his uncle Greg, but evidence is unclear (58:23).
• Weeks become years; the family receives taunting ransom notes (1991, 1992), including threats alleging an inside informant. Letters intermittently arrive promising Chad's safe return for ransom, each more harrowing and manipulative—“Last time, death came close upon your son because of your stupidity...” (74:47)
• In 1995, the family receives a box with Chad’s skull and a chilling note: “You only paid part. So here is a part.” (76:28)
• DNA is initially inconclusive; the grief is compounded by a lack of closure.

The Investigative Break

• Arrests in two unrelated credit union robberies lead to suspects revealing knowledge of other crimes, including the murder of local farmer JC Lavasseur (Pat Horn implicated).
• Pat Horn, once close to the Choice family, claims knowledge of Chad’s fate, at first blaming local drug dealers, then ultimately leads police to Chad’s grave in his own backyard.
  • Christine (to Pat): “I treated you like you were my son...What about Chad? Do you want to see a picture to remind you?” (83:43)
• Investigators determine Pat masterminded and acted alone in Chad’s abduction and murder, fabricating the drug ring story for leverage.
• Pat is sentenced to death, later commuted to life imprisonment due to his age at the time of the crime. Due to legal technicalities, Chad’s remains are tied up as evidence and only released for burial in 2003—over a decade after his disappearance.

Community Response & Legacy

Timestamps: 87:46–89:56

• Chad’s mother, Karen, channels her grief into action—creating "Chad's House," a community shelter serving those in crisis. She passes away in 2007.
• In 2022, the family launches the Chad Choice Family Foundation, helping children access sports and activities, honoring Chad’s memory and supporting families in hardship.
  • Angela (Chad’s sister): “If we don’t share and give back the way our ancestors taught, his loss is in vain. Chad’s life is not in vain.” (89:56)

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6. Notable Quotes

• “I would be so hardcore into the Diet Coke culture. You give me Diet Coke girly vibes.” —Em (04:16)
• “My go-to is always the strawberry cream cheese. But I want the most processed, pink, plain cream cheese...” —Em (16:00)
• “The pressure’s on. He’s got a perfect view of us sucking right now.” —Em, about Federici’s ghost (43:42)
• “Last time, death came close upon your son because of your stupidity...” —Ransom note (74:47)
• “All the years of hoping that he’d come home—in that very moment, it was over.” —Karen, on Chad’s burial (84:04)
• “If we don’t share and give back...his loss is in vain. Chad’s life is not in vain.” —Angela (89:56)

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7. Key Timestamps

• 01:15 – Food sensitivities and awkward body reactions
• 07:12 – Tarot decluttering stories
• 14:32 – Bagels and peanut butter, snack nostalgia
• 22:01 – Princess Theatre history & fun facts
• 37:22 – Ghost story: Federici’s demise and haunting
• 53:30 – True crime: Chad Choice’s case begins
• 76:28 – The horrifying delivery of Chad’s skull
• 84:04 – Discovery of Chad’s grave and moments of closure
• 87:46 – Community action in Chad’s memory

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8. Tone & Style

Christine and Em’s tone constantly shifts from goofy, self-deprecating humor (“my first Vitamix at age 5...”) to empathetic and supportive when discussing trauma and loss. Levity threads through even difficult true crime segments, balancing the emotional weight for listeners.

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9. Summary Conclusion

This episode artfully balances the “chilling ghost stories and downright terrifying true crime stories” promised in its intro. The rapport between Christine and Em shines through food confessions, tarot geekery, and personal bagel traumas, warming listeners for the harrowing but important recounting of the Chad Choice case—a story of loss, community pain, and ultimately, how memory and activism for others help forge meaning out of unspeakable tragedy.

And that, as Christine and Em always say, is why we drink.

Transcript

[A]

Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. Now, I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited Premium Wireless for $15 a month is back. So I thought it would be fun if we made $15 bills, but it turns out that's very illegal. So there goes my big idea for the commercial. Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment of $45 for three months, $90 for six months, or $180 for a 12 month plan. Required $15 per month equivalent taxes and fees. Extra initial plan term only greater than 50 gigabytes. Me slow when network is busy. See Terms. This episode is brought to you by Facebook. So you were scrolling on Marketplace and there it was, the bike you'd been searching for. You sent a message and it turned out the seller was super chatty, kind of funny, and an avid cyclist. The next thing you know, you're in a cycling crew. Well, a community cycling group. The thing about Facebook, you might find more than what you're looking for from a browse to a bike ride this summer. Find more on Facebook. Solar plexus. That's so weird. I was just talking about solar plexus today.

[B]

Every time I eat avocado, it like, it feels like someone kicked me in my solar plexus.

[A]

Like in your sternum here?

[B]

Yeah, like right underneath.

[A]

Okay, wait, that's why I'm getting. That's so, so weird. That's why I'm getting this food sensitivity thing.

[B]

Oh, is that the same thing you feel?

[A]

Oh, hi, everyone. Sorry, I wanna. Can we hop in? I don't know when we're allowed to hop in. I don't want to jump in with like your, you're good, you're good bone health stuff. And I didn't mean to bring this to the group, but I did get some DMS helping me out from last time. I forgot that I talked about this. Like, I completely forgot. I mentioned on the last episode that, like, I've been having this weird, like, no appetite, so I can only eat smoothies and stuff. And I'm not pregnant, folks. Check that. I was actually on my period when I recorded that. So. Don't, Don't. That's not the culprit. But you say like, that solar plex. That is literally where like, my sternum. It feels like there's like a block or like a scarring or like something like a. Like a. Inflammation. I don't know. So, yeah, so that's. And I don't know if it's like food sensitivity or stress or Crohn's or, you know, crazy.

[B]

No, it's only whenever. It's when I eat avocado, but it's also when I smell either jasmine or, like, like, not vanilla like the food, but vanilla, like the fragrance.

[A]

Like the flowery plant.

[B]

The flower.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

If I smelled. If we walk past jasmine, I feel like anyone. I. Anytime I do, someone's like, oh, my God, it smells so good. And I'm like, I think I'm gonna throw up. Like, I really feel so funny, I

[A]

stick my whole face into it. So. Yeah. That I feel sick to my stomach.

[B]

It like, really makes me, like the solar. Like the nausea of someone hitting your solar plexus.

[A]

Yeah. You know, I wonder. It's like amazing kind of how our bodies are like, nope, we don't like that.

[B]

I. It's. Yeah, it is wild. And then, of course, Allison just planted a bunch of jasmine and.

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah. And then. And then Allison's going to be on Dateline.

[B]

Yeah. She's just slowly killing me. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

It's like, have avocado for dinner.

[A]

Yeah. And this is like a pest. A healthy pesto made with avocado. Yeah.

[B]

I mean, it goes. It goes away after five minutes, but those five minutes, I'm like. I feel like I just, like, got. Just got off the craziest roller coaster.

[A]

So that's really weird cuz I have that. I've never been able to eat, like, stevia or like, aspartame or anything. And it, like, immediately makes my throat, like, swell and it sounds bad. It feels good. It sure does. It sure does. But it's not life. I mean, as far as I know, I don't go so far as to make it life threatening and I avoid it, but it, like, is extremely uncomfortable. And I. Leona does not have that with sugar free stuff. Like, I cannot go near sugar free even like that. The, like, plant sugar free stuff, like monk fruit.

[B]

Monk fruit.

[A]

Which is so weird because it's like, it's a plant, you know, and they were all. Remember, stevia was like, it's from a plant, right?

[B]

Yeah, it's a plant.

[A]

And then everyone puts stevia and everything. And I was, like, constantly at school walking around like, are these cookies sugar free? Because they're killing me.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

What? Would you.

[B]

Would you feel anything other than your throat kind of closing up?

[A]

Like, it, like, really just kind of feels like, I shouldn't be drinking this.

[B]

Okay. I mean, that's.

[A]

I mean, I do feel a little left out of The Diet Coke, like, culture. Because I'm. I would be so hardcore into the diet. I know I would be hard.

[B]

You give me Diet Coke girly vibes.

[A]

I do. I know. I feel it in my bones. And it's like a Coca Cola, but, like, that's just not the same, you know?

[B]

I've got a friend at the dog park who I think brings a Diet Coke like every day to the park. But it's like, it's.

[A]

I. I like, want to. Yeah, I get the vibe so hard.

[B]

And we went to Chili's. He got a Diet Coke. He's like, I love Diet Coke. And I.

[A]

My brother has that. He's so into it.

[B]

I'm also not in that circle because I have never been a diet anything person.

[A]

Do you not like it or is it like you just. Yeah, it tastes gross, right?

[B]

It tastes gross.

[A]

It also poisons me, but to me, it also tastes gross.

[B]

I like the aspartame flavor, which he has said. He's like, that's the thing. And I'm like, okay, but it, like,

[A]

tastes gross to me. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. I can't stand that. I want, like. Well, I was gonna say I want real sugar, but then like, Coke these days isn't even real sugar, so I just want corn syrup, I guess.

[A]

I'll tell you what, though, that corn syrup doesn't do a damn thing to my throat. And I love it. So what the ever. At this point, it's like the monk fruit is gonna kill me, so I might as well have some corn syrup.

[B]

Yeah. Have you ever had Coke with the yellow top?

[A]

What's that?

[B]

No, they. It comes out during, like, Jewish holidays because it's. At least that's what I know it as. It's like Jewish Coke because it's kosher and it's like real cane sugar or something. But it. It's supposed to taste more like the original recipe.

[A]

I've heard that about the. The Mexican Coke, like in the glass bottle when you go to.

[B]

Maybe it's the same thing. And I might. They just market it as two different things.

[A]

But yeah, their marketing, they're definitely gonna. The yellow top, though. I don't know about you'll.

[B]

Now that I've said it, you'll see it eventually. And it's.

[A]

I thought you meant like a cold foam top. And I was like, oh, interesting. That's so la.

[B]

No, no, no. Like the. Like, the leaders at the store will have yellow tops.

[A]

What?

[B]

The leaders, like the two liter bottles of Coke.

[A]

I thought you meant like the team leader like, the general manager of the store will be wearing a yellow top. And I was like, hello.

[B]

And he's Jewish. Every time.

[A]

Yeah. And he. He wants to make sure that your drinks are kosher. I really was, for a moment, and I thought we were living. And I think we were in two different realities. Absolutely.

[B]

Because I was like, I know what I said.

[A]

Incredible. And, you know, this has been happening ever since we recorded ads before this. Like I said, we can't even blame Mercury. It's not retrograde. We're just, you know, like, words are a bit.

[B]

We're in a space times.

[A]

I mean, hear me say a freaking disclosure. Whatever those things. Terms and conditions. At the end, I was like, poor Jack, our editor, is, like, struggling.

[B]

I. I was telling you before, I'm. I'm changing the topic, by the way.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, I was already. I already left the other one before

[B]

we talk about, you know, the Jews and their yellow tops.

[A]

And then I was like, is this that it's their holiday outfit, what they do at Wawa? Like, I was like, try to picture, like, what store? Or like, a publix. I didn't understand the yellow tops. This is really embarrassing, I'm going to say.

[B]

I just. We just decluttered a bunch of stuff, and we ended up playing a bunch of, like, games yesterday, which, you know, I. Fudgeing love.

[A]

Yeah. You and your games. It's like, only my dream, but okay.

[B]

It was.

[A]

What do you mean, a bunch of game? Like, who? While you were cleaning.

[B]

So we like.

[A]

That doesn't sound fun. I want to put that on the record.

[B]

I agree. Allison and I were trying to be more intentional with our time together, and we couldn't come up with anything except play games. And I was like, this is. We have to have more fun than this. Please. We ended up up saying, like, we'll play a game and just see where it takes us.

[A]

Hilarious. What game?

[B]

It turned into the game being us decluttering our games. Oh.

[A]

Oh, that was the game. Sure, sure, sure.

[B]

We played. We played, basically. Oh, the game was up. We were all the games. We were thinking about decluttering. We decided to play one last time to see if we really wanted to keep them or not. And so it was fun.

[A]

Yeah. It does sound like a riot of a time.

[B]

It. You know, it's just like, that's what you do on the weekends in your 30s. Yes.

[A]

It was a Saturday night.

[B]

It was a Sunday night.

[A]

Oh, okay. At least there's that.

[B]

We ended up getting rid of, like,

[A]

half of our stuff, which that's gotta feel good, though.

[B]

That part felt really good. And we played them to test them to make sure, but, like, we ended up finding all of our cards. Like, we have so many decks of cards and decks of tarot cards. And I. I thought we only had like two or three. And I have like seven or eight decks of tarot cards. But it. That was gonna be the. My question of the day for you. Not that I need one, but I. As I was doing it, I was like, I wonder how many Christine has, because she's really into tarot.

[A]

How many decks do you have? Well, oh, man, I don't know.

[B]

I don't know if you did, like, like, so if you had to. Baseball. I'm forgetting.

[A]

I know now more than I would have in the past because I actually finally got them all together and put them out. So I'm trying to think probably, I mean, probably 15, 20.

[B]

Do you have a favorite?

[A]

Yeah, just my. My favorite is, I think just the one my trusty old, you know, the one I got when I was 15 and like, bought with my money and like, you know, have. Have like studied. Like, that one is my. Is my favorite one. But then I just kind of go with the vibe. I'm like, which. What's. There's this new one that. It's not even a new one. Someone named Cat apparently gave it to me. And I use it sometimes in the tick tock readings I'm doing and the YouTube ones, but someone named Cat gave it to me. And it's like the beloved ancestor deck. And that one is so cool because it basically you can tap into like, who. Which ancestor or like, which ancestral energies you're working with. And. And so sometimes I'll be like, called to do that on a reading and like, pull up somebody's creepy grandpa or like, it'll say like, drunk. And I'm like, oh, somebody's just like, drunk uncle is here to give you wisdom. I don't know. But. So that one's really special because it feels very, like, spooky. And it's like this Victorian, like, you know, so whoever you are, Cat apparently worked out of because there's a note inside and it says, and I found it in my closet, so I've had it for years. And it was like. And I just pulled it out. I said, like, I can't believe I get to see you at the venue where I work. Love, Cat. And I'm like, I don't know what the fudge venue that was. For some reason, it's Giving me, like, Pacific Northwest vibes, but it also could be New Hampshire. I don't fucking know. Yeah. Whoever you are, Kat, thank you. I've mentioned you, like, three times on YouTube. You. Because I keep saying thanks to Kat, who gave this to me. But anyway, that one felt like it needed to come out. So if anyone. Yeah. Needs a message from their grandfather. I certainly don't. It's a good deck.

[B]

Sure. No, I. Well, I. I kept finding more Teradox. I was like, how the do I have this many? But one of them was. I mean, they're mainly fandom ones. Like, I've got, like, Pokemon 1. I've got like a Back to the Future.

[A]

Oh, I have a Neopets one. Ow, my ear. That's. The Angels are like, get the Neopets deck.

[B]

It's like I just watched it happen in real life.

[A]

Yeah. I don't know where those are. I find those Neopets has to be

[B]

such a fun little deck. I'm sure it is.

[A]

And I'm like, I can't believe I didn't. And I think Andrews McNeil, our book publisher, the ones who published that and sent it to me.

[B]

Crazy.

[A]

I know. I gotta go get that.

[B]

Anyway, I didn't mean to, like, put you on the spot there, but I thought of you this weekend when we were organizing all of our Tarot. I was like, can you imagine if I have this many? Like, can you imagine someone who's actively pursuing tarot?

[A]

Well. And I'm apparently remembering I have other ones that are just sort of stashed because I don't know where that Neopets one is, but I do have it.

[B]

Well, also, I. I know I have, like, three other decks that aren't even in this pile, which means I gotta go declutter other things to find those, but.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, and these are ones I've like. I've, like, curated mine. Like, I feel like I've gotten rid of some that didn't vibe with me or not really even gotten rid of, like, gave them to people or like, felt like these just. I don't know. Yeah, I think I've probably got a dozen or 15, something like that. Anyway, why do you drink this week? Also, look, wait, before I ask you. Well, after I ask you and before you tell me. I got my little smoothie and it looks so fancy. And look, they matched me again.

[B]

It's like your nails and everything.

[A]

Uncanny.

[B]

Oh, my God. Well, tell us what's in the smoothie.

[A]

I don't know. Superfoods. They're going to fix me.

[B]

I think today's the day.

[A]

Today is finally the day. I had them put peanut butter on top of it.

[B]

Interesting. How do we. You asked for that.

[A]

I did because I just want protein. I'm like, I can't eat food. It's like so hard to eat food. So I'm trying to explain flavor wise,

[B]

like, is that the closest thing I can compare it to is like maybe a PBJ for it to be peanut butter and fruit and it beating.

[A]

Wait, really?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Peanut butter in your smoothies?

[B]

No. And like really?

[A]

Ever since I was like five, ever since I got my first hand crank blender.

[B]

Ever since baby's first Vitamix nutribullet.

[A]

Yeah. No.

[B]

Does it not taste like. I mean I get like if it's like a banana one or something.

[A]

Am I weird for putting peanut butter in my smoothie? I put peanut butter in every single. Like, I don't think I've ever had a smoothie without peanut butter. So when I get a smoothie I'm like, put peanut butter in it. And maybe that's what I'm allergic to. Am I having just. Maybe you're just anaphylactic.

[B]

Enduring your own appetite.

[A]

It's my first Vitamix at age.

[B]

So if the smoothie is like kiwi and mango, you'd put peanut butter in there?

[A]

Yeah, but I don't eat that.

[B]

Okay, so you're only eating really like peanut butter friendly smoothies.

[A]

I don't with that. Yeah, but like to me most smoothies are peanut butter friendly. Except maybe like totally tropical. That's not me.

[B]

I guess my only smoothies I get are tropical.

[A]

Okay, maybe that's the kind of key difference we're having because mine are always like very like creamy based. So like I see banana, oat, peanut butter, superfoods, et cetera.

[B]

Interesting. Yeah, no, I'm usually like tropical food and berries. Tropical and berries. Very.

[A]

I put a lot of berries. But that goes with the peanut butter to me. I don't know. That's interesting. I always thought that was like one of the staple ingredients. But again we've learned over and over again. I'm. I'm the weird one, so.

[B]

Probably not. Because I'm thinking also like people put peanut butter in their oatmeal that's full of fruit.

[A]

Me too. So maybe we're on to something.

[B]

I mean, maybe I just haven't given it a shot. But in my, in my mind, I guess, I mean, I really only go for like pina colada flavor. So a Peanut butter would be kind of crazy.

[A]

Yeah, that would be a little. That would be something I would do. There was a nutty of mine.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There was a friend of mine that used to always say, oh, remember when I met you in third grade? And I was like, stop telling that story. We're like 25. But she'd be like, when I met you in third grade, you were sitting all by yourself. I remember it so vividly too. All by yourself in the lunchroom. And by the way, I was like, this is the secret. I wanted to be alone because I was, like, doing like a whole bit.

[B]

I get it.

[A]

Yeah. Thank you. And so. But she was so sweet. And so she came to sit with me and she's like, I remember it was so sad because you're sitting by yourself and you were eating a blueberry bagel with peanut butter. And she told this story for years. And for years I was like, I don't get it. Like, what's so weird about that? And then, like, one day I was like, what is. So why do you always tell that part? And she's like, because it's so weird. And I was like, it is.

[B]

I don't think that's super weird.

[A]

Okay, so now I'm like, am I a peanut butter freak? I guess. Whatever. Maybe that's why I'm always having anaphylactic shock. Okay, fine.

[B]

I.

[A]

Are you happy now? My.

[B]

Is that still your go to? No, you're. That's not your go to bagel anymore. No.

[A]

Apparently I ate it one time, got shamed out of it, and have been told ever since that this is a freaky thing I do. So. Yeah. And you know what? All I wanted was to sit there in silence and, like, you know, have a moment of like, I'm the main character in my emo third grade play, you know?

[B]

Sure. No, I get it. My go to is always the strawberry cream cheese. But I'm very picky. I really want, like, the most processed strawberry. Like, like, I want Einstein's bagels. Strawberry cream cheese. I cannot stand.

[A]

I do love this about you. You are like, the opposite of like. You're like, so you're like snobby, but in like, the opposite way of, like,

[B]

I'm snobby about being as like, like, low brow as possible.

[A]

You know, my stepmother is this way sometimes where she'll be like, don't give me that whipped. Like, we'll go somewhere fancy. I mean, we would in the past. Like, as when we were young, we'd be so embarrassed because she'd be like, don't give me any of that whipped butter crap. Like, give me real butter from the container. Like, you know, very just, like, you don't mess around with some things.

[B]

I'm like, I'm a creature of habit. Why would we judge anything up that needs.

[A]

Right. Like, you're like, don't put bitters in my juice. Like, just give me juice. Yeah. Like, come on.

[B]

Or like, like, Mac and cheese. I'm like, why on earth would you give me fancy Mac and cheese? Like, I know what I want.

[A]

Yeah. It's the point. Yeah.

[B]

But, yeah, like, if you ever go to, like, Einstein's or out here, I think it's Noah's. Noah's Bagels, which I think they're the same company, just on different coasts.

[A]

I believe so as well.

[B]

But they have, like, the. It's just. It's just like a pink strawberry cream cheese. And it's not neon pink. I don't know why. But some of this strawberry cream cheese that they put out there in the world, it's neon pink to let you know it's strawberry. And it's actually. It doesn't taste like anything except crap. It's just not good. And I'll stand by that proudly. And then there's other cream cheese where it's like. It's just plain cream cheese, but they've chopped up a bunch of strawberries and put it in there. And then they call that strawberry cream cheese. Yeah. So I get horrified every time I go to a new bagel place. And I. All I want is just strawberry cream cheese.

[A]

It's like, take a moment. Do you know how many times even I've been to a new bagel place with Amnesty Schultz? Think about it. On a tour. How many times have I been into a bagel shop? I'm thinking now, no wonder. Wow. There's so much residual trauma here. I'm thinking back now. Yeah. We've probably been like 40 new bagel. Like, I was about to say incidents, like, locations in together. And you've probably had a psychic meltdown in every one of them. I learned where you just sat in the back of the seat and you were sad. And I just remember being like, em got really sad after that bagel place.

[B]

I. It's because I really want one specific cream cheese haunting. And it's. And I can never find it anywhere else. Everyone else puts their own spin on it. And I'm sure, like, theirs is fancier.

[A]

And I are like, oh, this cream cheese is made of feta whipped up with garlic sprouts. And you're like, I'd rather kill myself.

[B]

I literally, like, there's a. There was one place where we went where I was shocked because it was mainly. It was strawberry jam, which was fine. Strawberry jam. And they mixed it with honey butter and then it became like this whipped strawberry.

[A]

I remember your.

[B]

That was incredible.

[A]

Profound reaction to that profundity of that day strikes me actually in this moment. It was usually special.

[B]

Just to be safe, I just go with a bacon, egg and cheese because I'm like, you can't. That's the same across the board.

[A]

And even we know that's not true because we've really been into enough situations in our touring careers that like, even that's not true and we know it, unfortunately.

[B]

I guess that's why I drank because I'll. I'm just. Unless I'm near a Noah's or an Einstein's, I'll never be happy in bagel land.

[A]

Oh, that's so tough for you. Yeah, it's tough.

[B]

It is tough for me. Thank you. Thank you.

[A]

I hear you.

[B]

And I hold space and I drink a my go to. Although today tastes a little different. I don't know what they did, but it tastes a little different and not really a good way. Maybe they put some ass cream cheese in here.

[A]

I was about to say, I bet you they put some peanut butter in there for you.

[B]

It actually kind of tastes like there's peanut butter in it, which is very weird for a London fog. It's a London fog.

[A]

Oh, I see. I was going to do a whole bit where whatever you said you were drinking, I was going to pretend like I've also put peanut butter on that and be like, no, that is normal. But I really just couldn't help myself. That's too ridiculous.

[B]

Well, the other reason I drink is because last week I sounded like a full blown man and with my voice and I was like, it's so crazy. I'm not even sick. Very next day, I got like the summer flu.

[A]

And so, yeah, we tried to all hold out hope for you, but.

[B]

Why do you drink, Christine?

[A]

Oh, I don't know. Apparently I have a freaky relationship to peanut butter that I've got to evaluate. Yeah. And so thanks for that, everybody. Not, not. That was not meant to be rude. That sounded really rude.

[B]

Thanks, everyone.

[A]

Thanks you all. Thanks for nothing, dirt bags. Sorry. Now I'm. Now I'm. Now I'm. Now I'm. You're stimulated. Okay, we're back to. We're back to Basics. I just got it. Flamingo. Because in the shower, you're like a flamingo.

[B]

Holy cristy.

[A]

Whoa.

[B]

Hang on.

[A]

Surprise.

[B]

I get it now. I totally. We. Did we all get it for the first time just now or are we the last two? Probably the last.

[A]

Let's not hear the answer to that. Let's pretend everybody's on the same page as us.

[B]

You know, speaking of flamingo, we were just cleaning where we've got company coming this week. And so we have been slowly getting through things, decluttering the baskets and all that. And we have now decluttered our shower which was just like. There was just bottles all over the place. One thing we're keeping in there is that flamingo shaving cream. That is.

[A]

It really is nice. It's really nice.

[B]

Keeps you nice and smooth. Slip and slide all over those legs.

[A]

Oh, my word. Really, truly, just like a flamingo. Wow. I'm just. I feel so, like, wow. I feel so wise. I. Okay. The whole kit, don't even worry about it. Is just $7 and it has a shower holder. For a limited time. Our listeners can get the flamingo starter set for only $7 at shopflamingo.com drink. This set includes the Flamingo Original Razor 1.5 blade cartridge, a 1 ounce foaming shave gel. You gotta try it. And a shower holder.

[B]

Just head to shop flamingo.com drink to claim this offer. And after you purchase, they'll ask where you heard about them. So please support our show and tell them that we sent you. I. Okay. Well, I have a story for. Yeah.

[A]

Oh, thank God.

[B]

And it is the. It's in Australia and it's in Melbourne and it's in. Well, specific. It's in Victoria and it's in Melbourne, which is in Victoria. Melbourne, Victoria, Australia.

[A]

Got it.

[B]

Okay. This is the Princess Theater and It is a 1450 seat theater and home to pretty much every show that comes to town. It's like the place we're talking like theater plays. The theater.

[A]

Theater place. Okay.

[B]

It is the oldest entertainment venue on mainland Australia. It is on the National Trust of Australia and it is on the. On the. In the Victorian heritage Register.

[A]

Ooh la la.

[B]

Which I'm assuming those are like the national history.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. You know, you know those things that we also don't know the word for in.

[B]

I was like, I say it every time for American places. So I feel like I should say

[A]

National Historic Registry, I think. Register. Register.

[B]

National. Why can't I remember it? I've said it a thousand times. I can't remember it at all. National landmark, Historical landmark, whatever.

[A]

I've left, I left a long time.

[B]

It's like my head fell off. Yeah, it's.

[A]

I. I feel like I should have told you my head fell off too, a while ago. And I forgot to tell you.

[B]

It's like our heads rolled off, became tumbleweeds in different deserts, but found each other and clunked into each other all over. Holy.

[A]

Where did you come from? I have. Yeah, same. That. I'm so, so glad we're on the same page.

[B]

I feel. I feel how you feel. I imagine. You know what I'm saying?

[A]

I can only imagine. And it's so scary, isn't it?

[B]

It's horrifying. Okay, so, Princess theater, let's talk 1850s.

[A]

Let's talk logistics. 1850.

[B]

1850s to the 1870s. Victoria has itself a little gold rush. We have talked about our gold rush way too many ad nauseam.

[A]

Indeed. Yes.

[B]

And basically with this gold rush, I mean, it was a 20 year long gold rush. It was very popular in town. People were coming in, it was bringing a lot of wealth. And it actually deemed Victoria this new title of Marvelous Melbourne. So I guess it was in the Melbourne era, but it became known as Marvelous Melbourne because it was just popping off that much with gold. And this is a fun fact for you. The mines brought in at that time about 42 million pounds of gold.

[A]

Ooh.

[B]

Which equates to 21,000 tons.

[A]

Sure. Yeah. That makes more sense for me. Thanks.

[B]

If. Yeah. If you also just don't pay attention to our metric system, it is around 2 million kilograms of gold.

[A]

Yeah. This is helpful. Thank you for the formula.

[B]

You know, just in case anyone can even relate to any of those numbers.

[A]

Oh, I've held that much gold before. I know how heavy that is. Yeah.

[B]

Oh, I'm worth that weight in gold.

[A]

That's crazy. Oh, wait, I have that downstairs in the. In the basement.

[B]

You just need a mirror and a good attitude.

[A]

Oh, wow. What's so stunning? Whatever you just said was really enlightening, illuminating. Thank you.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

Okay, so you just vomited. Sorry. Never mind about the compliment I gave you.

[B]

Okay. A shitload of gold came through the Melbourne area. And basically with so much bustle in the area, for once, we're not talking about a hotel, but a venue decided to get built because they're like, well, so many people are in town. I bet we could sell tickets to different shows. What's that?

[A]

You said the venue decided to get built.

[B]

The venue did decide. She talked to herself. She Had a mirror and a good attitude. And she said, we're gonna do this.

[A]

It's like the God spark, you know, like, oh, I just want to see my own creation.

[B]

It's like the Big Bang.

[A]

Just all you need is a mirror and a good attitude and you just fucking rock and roll, baby. Oh, my God.

[B]

Okay. So the venue decided to get built, obviously.

[A]

Hell, yeah. Hell, yeah.

[B]

But they were like, so many people are coming through. I bet we could sell a lot of tickets to a lot of shows. So let's build something. And they ended up creating this. It was like a barn. Like a theater out of a barn, or it was barn shaped. It was kind of a little. Not its finest form, a little rustic. Yeah, yeah. And it was called Astley's Amphitheater.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

And it actually, I. I can't tell if this was like a franchise, but there was also an Astley's Amphitheater in London. I'm assuming they're the same thing. And they just went, oh, well, let's have an Australia one.

[A]

It feels like that could very well be just two people named that. Yeah, I don't know. Maybe.

[B]

I don't know. I'm sure I could have found out. I did not spend enough time looking that up. But right at this one, they were holding horse shows, acrobat shows, very circus vibes. They also had a stage for vaudeville, and it opened in 1854. But then three years later, the building was completely redone. I think they realized that this barn was not doing much, and it reopened as the Princess's Theater and Opera House.

[A]

Oh, nice.

[B]

And this, by the way, is the first of many closings, renovatings, reopenings of this place.

[A]

Okay, okay, okay. We're doing, like, rebrands over and over, over and over.

[B]

Like, eventually I just got. I couldn't even keep up with it. I was like, it's like every 10 years we're just reopening this thing. But this is the first time it's called the Princess Theater. It's redone again only 20 years later. And then it's called the New Princess Theater. It's redone again another 10, 20 years later. But this time it is being or it's. It's purchased and owned by this partnership called the Triumvirate.

[A]

Whoa.

[B]

And apparently they were super controversial at the time because they tried to get into the arts, but kind of for evil, where, like, they wanted to just capitalize on entertainment, but they didn't really care about, like, the actors or the artists or were thinking about, like, local artists. They were just bringing in, like, famous names. And then other people were losing their jobs because of it that were in the area. They kind of were like the first real, like, I get master, I guess. So kind of like it was like a big touring company where they had certain names that they had contracts with.

[A]

I mean, right? So. Yeah. Yeah, I can get that. Oh, my battery is dying of my camera. Hold on.

[B]

Fun. Oh, there she goes.

[A]

Sorry.

[B]

Oh, it's like she knew she had five seconds left to live.

[A]

Okay. The tri. The Triumvirate. Yeah. Jesus Christ. This dog. The Triumvirate. Triumvirate.

[B]

Is it mail time?

[A]

I have no clue. Okay, smoothies already arrived. So what else could be? Maybe it's my food sensitivity test.

[B]

Maybe.

[A]

Can you imagine? Okay, it's usually Gio's dog food. And I'm like, that's for you, idiot. I get so mad.

[B]

Oh, my God, the triumph rate. Yes. They're super controversial. They did not have a passion for drama. They were just in it for the money. So they were. They bought this theater and they're like, we could do something real crazy with this. They were able to bring in a whole bunch of different types of acts. So not just vaudeville, not just horse shows. And they decided.

[A]

Boo.

[B]

They decided they were just going to start fresh, demolish the entire building and rebuild it. It's now called the Princess Theater. It was originally. It was last called the new Princess Theater. This time it was designed by a guy named William Pitt, who was a huge architect of the time, I think, especially when it came to building theaters. One thing he did with the Princess, this is actually just about the coolest thing I ever did here. He made the world's first theater to have a retractable roof.

[A]

Oh, so it could be an amphitheater.

[B]

Yeah. So, like, during even just, like, plays, if it was a good night out, they would just open the roof. So you had an open air show.

[A]

Was this, like, hand crank, you know,

[B]

I don't know, but it was, like, in the early 1900s, so.

[A]

So it has to be some mule crank.

[B]

Maybe some poor man, the PA up there just with a rope.

[A]

That sounds right.

[B]

Yeah, but. So I thought that was super cool. I think it still exists. I think the roof is still retractable today.

[A]

Wow. The roof is still retractable with a rope.

[B]

And a legend has it, she still opens at night.

[A]

Still unpaid. Unpaid interns still there by 1915.

[B]

There's like a whole other bunch of ownership changes very quickly that I'm not even Gonna bore you with. And by the 1930s, it's bought by a film production company. So the. This is a fun fact, I guess if, if you happen to be at this theater, I guess there's an arch in the lobby and if you look up, there's initials FT carved into the arch. And that was the owner of the film company who bought the place. He was like, I'm putting my goddamn name here. Because so many people here.

[A]

Where the mistletoe hangs.

[B]

It's what. Yes, that's exactly. That was the full quote, actually.

[A]

Yeah, that's what I thought. And then they really cut it because they cut off his romantic part.

[B]

But in 1946, it switches. Now it's hosting operas, ballets, musicals, comedy, drama. So right around this time is the 1940s. So coming up on a hundred years, that's when it becomes a catch all for any sort of entertainment is done here.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

In the 80s, it's changed again. This time though, it is brought to what it currently looks like. They decided that they were going to renovate it back to like its 1920s glamour, Old Hollywood or old vaudeville vibe. So in the 80s, they made it look like how it did in the 20s. And one of the last big reopenings, they. Their second show that came out, this was in 1989. You don't have to remember any of this. I'm just throwing a bunch of fun facts to you before I tell you.

[A]

Got it all summarized.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

1989.

[B]

This is actually, I think, one of the last fun facts I have for you. But they're during one of their last big reopenings, it was in 89. And the first show after that reopening was Les Mis. After that was Phantom. And when Phantom of the Opera came out in the cedar, it became the country's longest running show ever.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's got a good song,

[B]

which, you know what's crazy? I don't really care for Phantom of the Opera.

[A]

I don't know what you know. It's crazy. I've never seen it, okay?

[B]

It's.

[A]

I. I want to. It's not that I did it on purpose. It's just like. And then for a while in the 90s, every time somebody said, oh, Christine, like Phantom of the Opera. And the picture used to scare me because I was a big, big baby. And so I'd always just like be so weird about it. And yeah, I never saw it, but I'm like, I don't know, I'm like, oh, they have a song about me

[B]

in that show, I. I guess in the 80s maybe. It was incredible.

[A]

I think it was a big, like our parents were really into generation. Like they were into it, I guess.

[B]

So I think Wicked ruined a lot for me. You know what I'm saying?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Kind of set the bar. Yeah, yeah, got it.

[B]

But so it was. It lasted for two and a half years at the theater. And then the only other time that there was an incredibly long running show, I think it actually has probably beaten Phantom now, was in 2018. The. You know Harry Potter had a Broadway show.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Okay. So Harry Potter and the Cursed Child that came to the theater. This is fucking Bananagrams, the theater. I guess it was the third place to ever host the Harry Potter show. It was like New York and then London and then this theater. And they spent. Because they had to. It wasn't just decorating the stage and paying the cast and all that. They have to like redo the entire theater. So everything was Harry Potter in there. Like they had to redo the wallpaper, the carpet, they.

[A]

Oh my word. They really leaned in it.

[B]

Like they made the building look like Hogwarts basically and had to like take away from its 1920s look, make it look like Harry Potter. And then they had to re renovate everything back when the show left.

[A]

Jesus.

[B]

But they spent $6.5 million on just renovating itself to host Harry Potter. This includes, and this is a quote from a newspaper article, custom Hogwarts themed carpets, wallpaper, light fixtures. And they had to restore it to the 19th century detailing. They had gilded statues for each of the Hogwarts houses. They had new scaffolding on the front of the building. Everything was done Harry Potter. So it was. Or it's still the most successful show that's ever played in Australia. Almost half a dollar.

[A]

That would have been really awkward otherwise.

[B]

Almost half a million people went to that theater to watch it. And then Covid showed up. So then they had to go on hiatus for a year. And then it came back and Harry Potter still played through 2020.

[A]

They were like, well, we still have all the decorations up. We might do that again.

[B]

I know. They were like, well, I guess we're just gonna keep moving.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Okay, so that's all the fun facts I have for you. Now I'm just gonna tell you about their resident ghost.

[A]

Yeah. Love it, love it, love it.

[B]

Thank you for sticking with me through the. Sometimes I can't tell if people enjoy the history when it's just fun facts or if they want the full like story. But there's really not like a story to a theater.

[A]

You know, I mean, there is and I feel like we got the story.

[B]

You know, the story is that it changed a lot of hands.

[A]

Yeah. It all began with Rick Astley, I think is where we started.

[B]

That's exactly right.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I don't know if Rick Astley had an amphitheater that'd be.

[A]

Sounds like he might have, didn't he? I never thought I'd be like a person because I'm so like, chaotic to have like a capsule wardrobe. But now with Quince, it's like, oh, fall is coming. Let me get out my fall wardrobe.

[B]

I. Okay. I'm so glad we're talking about Quince because I recently I had to buy more because I'm obsessed with these right now. I got these bath sheets. They're terry cloth, they're waffle print, they're Turkish and.

[A]

Oh, well, say less.

[B]

They are so comfy. And I, you know, there's nothing I love more than after a shower just being like. Like wearing. Wearing a towel. Like a scarf around my whole body.

[A]

Totally. You got to be like enrobed in something.

[B]

It's so nice. So if you're looking for something to get from Quincy.

[A]

Oh my gosh. I mean, a set of two. Okay, see, and then it says $49.09. You say 57. What they do and then they tell you the brands that like they're. You're comparing to. And so then you're getting 50 to 80% lower prices than similar brands and you get to see it right in front of your very eyes. Plus they work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen. This isn't like fast fashion. I'm talking capsule wardrobe, Turkish towels. Listen, it's just the best of the best for less. That's not a phrase and that they use. But I made it up. So here you go.

[B]

It's incredible. Upgrade your every day. Download the Quint app for app exclusive offers or go to quint.com drink and you can get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns now available in Canada and the UK too. That's Q-U-I-N c e.com drink. Well, this theater is known for its ghost named. He was his birth name was Frederick Demidoff Anatol. No, hang on.

[A]

Sorry. I know if that person introduced himself, I would spit my drink out. Like if I were. That's so rude of me. I'm so sorry.

[B]

Anatole Frederick Demidoff Baker.

[A]

Don't say that like Demidoff. Don't be ridiculous. I'm talking to that person, not you.

[B]

And he goes by Frederici.

[A]

Yeah, sure. Sure, he does.

[B]

He was born 1850, which is the year that the gold rush began, and I guess. And the theater was about to get built. He was born in Italy. He's a famous opera singer, and he was in many successful musicals that went on to be big award winners. And in the. It was 1887. He joined the Triumvirate Tory Company.

[A]

Oh, boy.

[B]

And so they brought him to Australia. He was going to perform at a bunch of different spots. Eventually, one of them would be the Princess Theater. And he was cast in a show called Faust. Do you know about Faust? Okay, do you know enough about it to give a summary or you want me to just say it real quick?

[A]

You go right ahead. My. My mother might hear this.

[B]

Okay, great. It's. The very, very quick version is that there's a guy who's selling his soul to the devil, and Frederici played the devil.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

I'm making it as quick as possible. But the main characters are the guy, the devil, and the guy that the devil is taking the soul of.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

The devil's name is Mephistopheles, of course. Can you imagine if he was like, I'm actually. My name is Anatole Frederick Demigof Demigoff Baker, but I go by Mephistopheles.

[A]

It's a nightmare. It's a nightmare.

[B]

Well, so he. Okay, so he's playing Mephistopheles, the devil. And during the play, the devil takes the man's soul, and the two of them descend into hell together. And they. Basically, the way that the show is put out is that the devil links arms with the guy who just sold his soul or, like, wraps a scarf around the two of them in some way. They're bound as one, and then they're standing on a slow moving trapdoor that descends them down into hell. And there's, like, fire and lights everywhere on the stage. Big deal. Well, so on opening night of Fountain.

[A]

Oh, my God, I have a bad feeling about this.

[B]

In 1888, it's opening night, and as the trapdoor slowly dropped them, the audience noticed that Federici playing the devil, he kind of slumped over for a second and, like, caught himself on the trapdoor. And what they didn't know was that they thought it was just an artistic choice, but Federici was actually having a heart attack.

[A]

Oh, I was gonna guess that. Oh, no.

[B]

And he was struggling. As soon as the trapdoor got down to the bottom of the stage, down in the basement. He was carried to the green room. A doctor was called. They tried resuscitating him, but he died while the show was still going on, and none of the cast upstairs knew.

[A]

And drama.

[B]

Lucky quote for him. That was his last scene of the show. So, like, no, it's not like they waited for. Like, he'd lost. He missed his cube or something.

[A]

Well, the show must go on. If you're gonna have a heart attack, you better wait till your last line.

[B]

Say your last line, and then we can be set.

[A]

I mean, it really is an artist.

[B]

He. You know, and let's put it this way, because you're onto something here. Apparently, his ghost also believed in the showmaskylon, because many people in the cast truly didn't think anything was wrong, especially when during curtain call, he was up there with them bow.

[A]

Shut the up.

[B]

Yeah. So people were like, what do you mean he's dead?

[A]

He was just. He just bowed. He just do his bow.

[B]

Like, everyone remembers him being on stage.

[A]

That's crazy.

[B]

I love that his ghost was like, okay, God, I see the white light, but, like, let me have this moment.

[A]

Like, I know. Like, hold on one second longer.

[B]

Also, like, I love that he died playing the devil. Like, something about that.

[A]

It's really something. And I. You know. God, that's beautiful. There's something about it. Wow. I just. Something. Something about it.

[B]

So ever since Federici has haunted the theater, and I guess people have noticed that lights during performances, even if they've tested them a million times during rehearsal, they'll always glitch during a performance. I wonder, like, what time that's at, because maybe it's, like, the moment he died or maybe it's. I wonder if there's something there.

[A]

Yeah. The heart attack. Yeah. Ooh.

[B]

People have seen him gliding past the stairs. They felt him.

[A]

He started gliding in his afterlife. He's like, if I'm gonna stay in this theater, might as well have built in. Like, use my feet. Yeah. What the do you think I am? Yeah.

[B]

People have felt him brushing past them. They've seen him, like, next to a bunch of boxes, and he is, like, kind of shuffling around people, which I love that he's just. Just shuffling.

[A]

He's either gliding or shuffling.

[B]

It's. It's one or the other.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

People have felt something touch their back. People have felt their shoulders get touched. People have felt their hair get played with. He's been seen sitting in the dress circle, which in theaters that's like the. That's my favorite spot to sit. It's the front row of the mezzanine, or, like, the very first balcony.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[B]

The very first battle. It's orchestras on the floor or the pit, and then the pit is in, like, the center, and then there's the mezzanine, and then there's the balcony, the mezzanine, the front center. That is where people see him now. I died in the theater. That's also where you would see me. Cause it's the best view, in my opinion.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Some people are like, I want to be right up, but I want them spitting on me. And I'm like, okay, I don't want that.

[A]

No, no.

[B]

But I guess what's funny about this is he's seen during rehearsals, but some people have claimed that they see him, like, so dramatically reacting to their performances when he's unhappy. Like, they'll see him, like, brushing hair out of his face, and he's, like, super impatient, and he's, like, taking notes, I guess. He's like. He's, like, doing. He's, like, making motions that suggest that he's, like, critically judging them, which is, like. And in the best seat in the house, too. So it's like, oh, man. Like, he's got a perfect view of us sucking right now.

[A]

And, like, you better. You better be perform well under pressure. Because at that point, like, the pressure's on.

[B]

I know. Yeah. And so now, actually, the seat that they always see him in on opening nights, they'll reserve it for him as, like, an offering for good luck. And people also see him on stage. I don't know if this is during performances, but they'll see him on stage or walking in the aisles, and apparently he's, like, dressed to the nine. So maybe he does know, like, on opening nights, I'm supposed to look my best. Or.

[A]

I mean, clearly he knows.

[B]

On one. One firefighter, this was not during an actual show, but while the theater was open, I guess an alarm went off, and a firefighter was trying to turn it off. It wasn't working. And so he tried to open a bunch of windows to let the smoke out or to see if that would turn the smoke alarm off. In my mind, he should have just opened the whole roof with a big crank.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I guess he, like, freaked out because while he was doing that, he saw a tall, dark shadow of a man on stage with the eyes of a cat.

[A]

Mestofeles.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Holy shit.

[B]

Or like, the Jellicle Cats. I don't know.

[A]

That's what I mean. Isn't that a name of a character in fucking Cats or am I dreaming?

[B]

Is it? I haven't seen cats in so long.

[A]

Maybe I've never seen Cats either, Em. I've never seen it in my life

[B]

that it would be funny if it was just a Jellicle cat and it was just makeup. Yep, look it up. Look it up. Yep. Also, are there two major players?

[A]

Mr. Mesophilis. But it's spelled like ridiculous, you know, and the original Mistoes is like with like the ph. And isn't that funny that there are

[B]

two characters named Mistoes and he.

[A]

Well, no, I think. I mean, I think it's like an homage to the. Yeah.

[B]

Oh, it's an homage to the.

[A]

The guy from Phantom, I think, because. To the original character from folk German folklore. Because, yeah, mistoes, the miss the cat is spelled like with Fs and Es and in almost like a comical way.

[B]

But that is like, what are the odds though, that he played Mistoffeles and died and now he looks like a different Mistoffeles?

[A]

He's probably like, yeah, I get that one too. Just because I died before Cats doesn't mean I don't get to like embody wearing the contacts, you know, it's so.

[B]

I didn't even put that together, but that's so. Oh, that's extra weird.

[A]

That's creepy, the fact that it was cat eyed. But I tell you what, that's. He's probably just testing out the contacts facts.

[B]

He's like, yeah, you're right. And he likes to play on word. He's like, I could be any Mustafolis, I want.

[A]

You never know theater.

[B]

That's funny. I didn't even put that together. Christine.

[A]

I've never seen any of these plays. Well, never seen Faust. Never seen Cats. Never seen. Whoa, my lights just flickered. No, never seen Phantom of the Opera. So what can I do as a spout? Bullshit.

[B]

This guy's clearly a theater lover and he's like, you haven't seen any of my shows. So he. His firefighter left, freaking out. He was like, I just saw a tall man. He's got the eyes of a cat.

[A]

Angelicle cat. Three times, but it's only now hitting me. That's very funny.

[B]

But they have said the. I guess the manager of the theater, he said that Federici, this is a quote, is very much a benevolent presence. Nothing nasty ever happens. He's more of a friendly poltergeist. So I guess. Okay, I think friendly and poltergeist are silly words to put next to each other.

[A]

I was gonna say, especially when we're talking German devil folklore, like, in the mix, I start to get a little iffy on, like, can you give me a little more clarity on what those words mean to you? Yeah, like, yeah, because, like, yeah, poltergeist to me is something, and to you it's clearly something else.

[B]

Also, in the word the world of semantics, doesn't poltergeist mean, like, noisy ghosts? Like, you mentioned a noisy ghost in a theater where you have to be quiet.

[A]

It. Also a German folklore. I don't love all this, you know, and. You know, it comes from German folklore. Only bad things. Like, only bad. Only like cutting off the thumbs and, like, eating people. Children. And it's just, like, mess. It's just a mess.

[B]

The Germans are their own breed, it seems. That's.

[A]

I mean, we're like, just. It's just a traumatic thing happening over there. Yeah.

[B]

Investigators have come here to look for Federici because they are really hoping that they'll catch him.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

There was a whole bunch of videos online. There was a whole bunch of videos. And fun fact, the restaurant in the building is named Federici after him as well.

[A]

Oh, that's. I bet he loves that.

[B]

I would love it if, when I die, there's a restaurant named after me. Oh, my God.

[A]

Yeah. But you'd be so. You'd be like, they put strawberries in the whipped cream, and they're chopped up, and this is not.

[B]

You're right.

[A]

You'd. They'd find it on the ground every day, and they'd have to call in a psyche to be like, they don't like. The ghost doesn't like this cream cheese.

[B]

I feel like they should have. There should be a restaurant out there. This is such bad business practice, but I feel like there should be.

[A]

I was like, say, this is already a terrible idea, but I can't wait to hear it.

[B]

A restaurant named after someone who's like, the. The ghost of the. The building. And you use either dowsing rods or a Ouija board, or you go ghost hunting first and have them make the menu so that way you know that you're pleasing them.

[A]

Right. So either demons or a bunch of children or Victorian dead people are going

[B]

to be telling you what to eat.

[A]

I'm sure it'll be delicious.

[B]

Could be anything. I don't know. I would love. I would love if someone came to where I used to be and then they gave me an option and said, what food should we Offer this or that.

[A]

I'm sure you would.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

I'm sure you would want me to touch your skeleton while we're at it, too, so. I do not.

[B]

And I'd have a good time, by the way.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Anyway, that's the Princess Theater.

[A]

Very good. I gotta close out of my mustaf. Mephistopheles. Mephistopheles.

[B]

I'm gonna look it up. Up.

[A]

Yeah. I was saying it wrong,

[B]

Mephistopheles.

[A]

It's like super fun times. Yeah. Yeah. My mom taught German literature or teaches German literature, so. And that's her PhD. So I try to avoid anything in that area to. To be in my kind of conscious arena. You know, you just.

[B]

It's safe. It's a safe call.

[A]

It's a safer place without it, if you can imagine.

[B]

Also. Oh, it comes from. That makes total sen. Sense. Mephisto. Oh. Mephisto is essentially the devil in Marvel comics.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Interesting.

[B]

Mephistopheles is a demon featured in German folklore. So maybe I'll just cover Mephistopheles one day.

[A]

It's a lot there, Mephistopheles.

[B]

That's what it is.

[A]

Yeah. The cat. Creepy. I don't know. Hey, which category are you overspending in?

[B]

The categories are Pokemon. All of them. Every aspect of my life.

[A]

All of them. Minus Shirley in their takeout, probably. Or delivery. You know, it's a big one. But Rocket Money helps me deal with that. It helps me get a clear picture, might I even say a colorful picture of how I spend my money. And it helps me put money away to save every month, which is really helpful. And it, like, really puts it into a language I can understand.

[B]

Rocket Money can track subscriptions and has the ability to cancel unwanted ones with the app with a few taps, saves users over $880 million in canceled subscriptions.

[A]

There.

[B]

It's one thing for your job to be on the floor when you realize how much money you were spending.

[A]

Surprise, right?

[B]

They. They gently. They take their hand and they place it under your jaw, and they pick it back up and they close your mouth for you, and they go, don't worry. I've. I've got it.

[A]

It's a few more times. We're going to take care of this.

[B]

It's obvious you can't handle this right now, so I'll just do it. Rocket Money is a. I'm going to say the personal finance app that helps find and cancel unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills. So you can grow your let Rocket

[A]

money help you reach your financial goals faster. [e-mail] Drink that's RocketMoney.com Drink RocketMoney.com Drink hello everyone. We just did a yappy hour in which M decided to play the elevator game. And I don't want alone apparently, which is the rule number one to do it by. M literally lost every rule and. And talk to the demon girl instead of not moment.

[B]

I heard you when you were saying it, I just didn't retain a lick of it. I went, okay.

[A]

And then M just. It was like. It was like when you see the. The girl enter the elevator on the fifth floor and M goes, I'll tell her it's none of her business. Like, do not speak to her. It's like, what the you already? And then Em's like, well, we'd be in it together. And I'm like, do you not remember Rule number one is never go in it it with another person.

[B]

I'm telling you.

[A]

And I say, memorize this sequence of numbers. And M goes, I just tried it. It didn't work. And I'm like, you know what they say, press them. And then five minutes later I'm like, remember the sequence of numbers? And you're like, nope. Oh my God, we're going to die.

[B]

I. You owe me. Okay, let's put that way. Do you remember every investigation we ever went on where the one rule was don't bring alcohol? And you went, huh, okay. And then you just brought a bra of wine or you remember shattered glasses everywhere.

[A]

Do you remember when I coerced you into doing a Ouija board 13 times. And that was also my fault. So you know what?

[B]

So elevator time.

[A]

Maybe I gotta get on this fucking elevator to hell. Yeah, you know, we talked about how it's an elevator like, like from Faust. He's going to hell. And apparently some people call that game the elevator to hell. Anyway, I hated every second of it. Thank you. And now I'm gonna get back to an even worse reality, which is the story I'm telling today.

[B]

Perfect.

[A]

Yeah, that's a good segue. Here we go. So the story I have for you today are the murders of Chad Choice and JC Lavasseur. We go all the way back to October of 1994, when 80 year old James Clark, known as J.C. lavasseur, was spending the morning, as he often did, selling produce along Texas Highway 155. JC was retired and living in Berryville with his wife, Annie Bell. Very like picturesque Texan situation. And For a decade. Basically what they do is that did was grow fruits and vegetables and like shared with their neighbors and then like sold what was left over for.

[B]

Cool. It's very, very Americana. Very bartering and. Yeah, totally.

[A]

And just like look like hyper local, you know? Yeah. So love that for J.C. and Annie Bell. But on this early October morning, J.C. disappeared from his fruit stand very quickly. His truck was discovered just down the road, abandoned in the middle of the road. And pretty soon after that, a man discovered JC's body in the woods just off the road where he had been shot to death.

[B]

Oh my God.

[A]

Now like imagining this, right, like Americana situation, it was a complete shock to the community. JC was well known and liked by his fellow, like produce vendors, by his community, his neighbors, his customers. Yeah. It was just unimaginable why somebody would do this to this like kind old retired dude.

[B]

Yeah, A guy. It sounds like he's friends with everybody.

[A]

Yes. And police quickly ruled out robbery as the motive as well because there was cash in his pocket and at the produce stand. So it's not like somebody held up the produce stand and then, you know, know. Very strange, very strange. So soon, reports came in from witnesses who claimed to have seen two men attempting to leave in JC's truck, but struggling with the standard transmission and eventually bailing when the truck stalled out. So now they're thinking, well, maybe this was a failed carjacking and they're trying to get his truck and that's he was killed over the dispute or what have you. Okay, so J.C. was survived by his wife, a daughter, brother, grandchildren, been many friends in the community who are left reeling. So now we rewind a bit because Years earlier on October 13, 1991, Karen Choice began her Sunday as she usually did. And these stories, if you can't guess, end up connecting. So just to be clear. Yes, but we're gonna SEGOO Back to 1991 a couple years earlier. Karen Choice begins her Sunday as usual, has a cup of coffee, goes to service at the Christian Teaching center, which is the church she attended in Tyler, Tex. Texas. The whole family was very rooted in their church community. Karen had studied faith based counseling alongside her nurse administration degree in college and was a very involved member of the church. And this particular Sunday was a big deal because it was Karen's 41st birthday. So she decided she was going to go to church alone and celebrate with her friends while her kids slept in. So she left them at home that morning without waking anybody up. And during the service she gets a phone call one of her daughters calls the church to ask whether Chadwick was with Karen. And eight year old Chadwick, who went by Chad, was the youngest of Karen's four children. His older siblings had woken up that morning and had known their mom was at church as expected. But then they realized Chad was not home with them and they were like well that's weird. So Karen left church immediately, began searching the neighborhood for Chad alongside by family, friends and churchgoers. Everyone hoped that Chad had just like woken up and somehow wandered off without telling anyone. Did you by the way, sorry this is kind of a side note but like this is such a fearful thing. Like did you ever wake up at home and like nobody was there or like you couldn't find anybody?

[B]

There was a few times I didn't not waking up. But when I would come home from school and I thought my mom was going to come home and she came home way later and I just assumed like a car crash or like where is she Scary?

[A]

What is. There's like this primal fear I feel like like being home and like not knowing because I remember like viscerally one time waking up and it was like too late in the day and I remember like nobody was home and I was like I was supposed to be. I mean it had like the. And what had happened was that the neighbor's house had like caught on fire over like there had been this like huge like event and so it was like something scary but it was like like whoa. Like everything got kind of. I don't know. It's a very unsettling feeling to like realize someone's just like van.

[B]

It's definitely, it was definitely scary like as like a kid because like it was so rare that I wasn't next to one of my parents that when it did happen and it was unexpected I like it was.

[A]

So your brain just doesn't know where to land. Yeah.

[B]

Out of sorts. Yeah. I was like you're supposed to be here, where are you? Yeah, yeah.

[A]

It's really unsettling. And so like this. And it's an eight year old, right? I mean he's not obviously it's. It's like where would he go? It's not like a two year old where you say like oh God, he wandered off. Not that it's better if it's a 2 year old or what happened. Right. But just like the, the mindset of like what would this 8 year old be doing? So they're, they're looking around the neighborhood but like they're kind of like we don't think if he's not around here in the neighborhood, we don't know where he would be unless something bad has happened. You know, she said he, like Chad liked to play and could be mischievous, but, like, that's not. He's not. Like, he's just a little kid. Like, he's not gonna be wandering away from home for any reason. So Karen soon reported Chad missing to the police, who visited the home. They observed there was no sign of a forced entry or anything like that. And so. Or robbery. And so they were like, oh, well, maybe he ran away. Right. And of course she's like, I promise you, he did not run away. And she genuinely was like, I can't understand this except that he's been kidnapped. Like somebody's taken him. There's no other explanation. And so she's just, like, terrorized by this. For two days, she remained within reach of the home phone at all times, just waiting, like, hoping, like, probably frozen, right? Like hoping anybody will call. But instead, her brother Greg Sterling, who owned a funerary business called Sterling Mortuary, found a letter on the front step of the funeral home, and it was a ransom note from the kidnappers.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Somehow they had taken Chad from his home in the middle of the night days earlier without making a sound. And they were now demanding that $10,000 be left for them at a Greyhound bus station in exchange for Chad's release. They made it clear they would kill Chad if their demands were not met. And they also warned the family that they had a contact within the family who could tip them off. Off about any police involvement. That's terrifying. Like, also, someone in your circle is a snitch and is gonna tell us if you call the police. What the.

[B]

Like, so it's like you can't trust anybody.

[A]

Mind games. On top of everything else, the in

[B]

on such a sliver of the problem. But, like, the betrayal, trauma or whatever, too, of like, someone knows and.

[A]

Or somebody in our circle can't be trusted and has like, potentially done. Harmonious. Yeah.

[B]

Something really knows that a kid is in danger.

[A]

Facilitated. Yeah.

[B]

And they're not going to do anything about it.

[A]

And.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, my God.

[A]

Oh. I mean, it's chilling. Especially when you're someone who's like, in a community. That's the whole point. I mean, both of these people, actually, interestingly, it's like very much like community based stuff. Yikes. Okay. So anyway, Karen, of course, now her mind's spinning, right? She's like, who the hell could. Could it have been? But investigators Start to think, like, well, maybe it's Greg, her brother, the one who found the note on the mortuary on the funerary steps. So this would have been Karen's brother Chad's uncle. And it seemed most likely. I mean, we know how this is like abductions and things are most often by somebody close to the family or close to the child who's gained some sort of trust with the child. And so it made sense that somebody close to the family, like an uncle, would have abducted Chad because they could have taken him quietly without having to enter the home by force. So soon after the ransom note arrived, Karen received an anonymous phone call from someone who claimed Greg, her brother, had been kidnapped to be extorted for a drug debt owed by a family member. Okay, so now the Tyler Police Department gets the FBI involved because they're like, this is getting very complicated. And Chad's case is aired on America's Most Wanted. So damn, things are lighting up, but the leads just go nowhere. The FBI questioned Greg about his potential involvement. The uncle, he denied it. He offered to provide a briefcase full of cash for Chad's release. Like, okay, guys, drinks go off King. I guess, whatever. The FBI organized a sting operation at the Greyhound station, and Greg himself delivered the ransom. Oh, so, okay, sorry. He did literally show up with briefcase. I had forgotten that that actually happened, as it was so literally explained in his. His previous offer.

[B]

But also, if we think it's. If we think it's Greg and he just brought ransom to his own stick up and, like, knew nobody was going to be there, then it wasn't that much of a. Like, a risk to. To true. Put his own money out there.

[A]

True enough. Point. Yeah. Although then, I don't know, I'm thinking. I'm thinking, what town is this in? Tyler, Texas.

[B]

Tyler, Texas. Do we know the population? Like, how big of a case was this for the locals?

[A]

I mean, Tyler. I know Tyler, Texas. I think it's one of those, like, towns that's outside of a big town.

[B]

Okay, sure, sure.

[A]

You know what I mean?

[B]

Like one of the size town.

[A]

Yeah, I think so. I'm pretty sure. See? Oh, it's known for its rose gardens. That's right. Roses. Okay, you know what? Roses have been stalking me. And I almost. Almost brought it up in the intro because.

[B]

Bring it up now. Roses.

[A]

Roses. I literally. I know, because it keeps haunting me. And so every time I see a rose now, and they're everywhere and like, Leona literally came back from the playground the other day and said, look, what a Little girl gave me, and it was like, three roses. And I was like. Like what? Like, she said, oh, she didn't speak English, but she just walked over and handed me these after we played in the sandbox. And I was like, that's so sweet. But, like, everywhere. These damn roses. And then every time I hear roses. Roses. And I fear that I'm creating this horrible loop of, like, my own reality is.

[B]

You're accidentally chanting a manifestation.

[A]

I know. And it's. It's. It's harming me to the core of my being. Roses. Yeah. So Tyler, Texas, is known for their rose production, I guess.

[B]

But the population. Do we know that?

[A]

Oh, 105, the 38th most populous city in Texas.

[B]

Oh, Holy. So it's huge. Okay. So,

[A]

yeah, it seems pretty. I mean, everything in Texas feels pretty big. It's named after a Pres. The 10th President of the US fun.

[B]

Also fun fact about John Tyler is that. That. Do you know about. You know, like, about his grandson? No.

[A]

What's happening?

[B]

No. Oh, John Tyler. He. He, like, had a son at, like, 80 years old, and then that son had a son at, like, 80 years old. And so. No.

[A]

You were gonna do this to me.

[B]

So his grandson je. Like, his. He's like, one of the earliest presidents, and he had only two generations away from his grandson who just died in, like, 2020 or something.

[A]

I remember when that was like, a news article, and I remember my brain going, we're not going to comprehend this. So. No, remain. Won't remain.

[B]

So his. His great grandson is alive right now.

[A]

That's crazy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Alive and well. Living in Tyler, Texas.

[B]

That's. I hope so. That'd be cool if you were in the town. Can you hear the stupid dog?

[A]

No, I'm not gonna snitch on that beautiful baby.

[B]

Yeah, well, I will. He's running all over the place. That would be fun if you lived in a town named after your, like. Like, great grandpa.

[A]

Yeah. You'd be such a annoying neighbor, though. You'd be like, that guy. And then, like, if he invites everybody for dinner, he'd be like, we have to go. Like, his, like, invented the town. Like, we can't say no to a dinner party.

[B]

I like.

[A]

It would be so annoying.

[B]

You heard about the town.

[A]

And stop saying you heard about. Because, you know, I have it, and it's kind of. It's going to make my brain hurt. What? What now? What now?

[B]

The town. Michigan. The town. Hell in Michigan.

[A]

Oh, yeah. I mean, I know about that because Ohio loves to use that against weaponize It.

[B]

Oh, it's like, for sale. For, like. It was very under. Under. It's. I don't know if the right word is, but the number was a lot lower. And they knew people would, like, fight to pay to be the new mayor of Hell, Michigan.

[A]

But they used to be the mayor. Is that how that works?

[B]

It's like a. It's a very small town, and the guy who, like, operates it, he, like, he had, like. I'm not kidding. He has an ice cream place called the Screamery.

[A]

He has a Mr. Mistoffeles. Is that his name? Because it feels like that he's actually

[B]

a jealous local cat.

[A]

I mean, honestly, he might wear those contacts.

[B]

There's a mini golf in Hell, Michigan. There's like. It's a bunch. It's like one main street of just a bunch of little stores that he operated. And he's, like, ready to retire and give it to somebody else who wants to run like a tourist attraction. And so you get to be the mayor of Hell. And I. I did think about it, but I was like, I don't know if I really want to live in Michigan, but if I. If I was feeling.

[A]

Thank you. Sound bite.

[B]

If I was feeling impulsive, which I

[A]

got you a good sound bite, I.

[B]

Here's the thing. Imagine I'm the mayor of Hell. We all know I want to be the mayor or something. Be the mayor of Hell, where the main businesses there are mini golf and ice cream. And then Hank could be the Hellhound.

[A]

Please.

[B]

Like, are you kidding?

[A]

Let's not be ridiculous.

[B]

Like, the ridiculous thing is that I didn't do it.

[A]

Get Michigan on the horn.

[B]

Someone call Hell.

[A]

Scrub the part where M said they never want to move to Michigan because Hell is in Michigan.

[B]

And by the way, I don't want to move there because I love California, not because I hate Michigan, but.

[A]

But scrub that part, too, because we might need the first part as blackmail.

[B]

I just know that I saw everybody's DMs to me. I did have a. Sit down with myself and think, like, I could do this. I was like, I could do this for sure.

[A]

One. One of you was in a cape, and one of you wasn't. And you were both like, all right, let's talk this out and be reasonable.

[B]

I did think I was like, that would be kind of a great business opportunity. I feel like, as in, that's why we drink. We should have bought it and, like, made it into.

[A]

Every time Em comes to me with a business opportunity, I'm like, what town are we Buying. We can't, like you and I though, we can't. We can't do something normal, like, ever. Ever. I was gonna. I was gonna expand on that, but you're right. That's the end of the sentence.

[B]

But imagine. And that's where you drank. Owns Hell.

[A]

Like, come on, is this, Is this another. Are you doing a sneaky thing? Is this like a sneaky thing?

[B]

Like, I already bought it? Yeah.

[A]

Oh my God. Open your checkbook. It's zero. What's a checkbook? Nobody knows.

[B]

Oh, I did think about it. I did think about it.

[A]

On my soul. Everyone hop aboard the Mint Mobile. That's a trick. Because if you haven't already, then what are you doing listening to me?

[B]

I think they were just on their. Their bad wi fi and on their bad phones and they just didn't. They didn't even hear you.

[A]

They had no reception. Oh, I've heard that one before.

[B]

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[A]

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[B]

where are we now?

[A]

Oh God.

[B]

Oh. Tyler, Texas. I was asking about the population because I wanted to know if like this was like, if it was a very small Town Rose. Everybody would know about this. But if it's that big of a town, I feel like it's kind of getting, like, under the radar. Like, people are catching on.

[A]

It's a pretty big town. And. And it's. It got TV airtime. But even when the. The. I feel like the fact that the airtime on TV on America's Most Wanted, like, national syndicated programming that didn't get enough leads, like, that was already a rough start. Like, I agree it's. It's a big deal, but it's not a big enough deal that it's creating enough frenzy around it to. To get an answer. Um, so, yeah, the leads were slim. Greg shows up with the briefcase case and drops it off, and investigators are waiting in hiding nearby. And of course, like, the most dramatic thing ever. They're dressed as, like. Which I'm like. They're dressed as. They're disguised as, like, bus travelers, which I'm like. Feels like you have to put effort into disguising yourself as a bus traveler.

[B]

I think you're already. I was gonna say this feels like a heist. This feels like a silly little quest. All of a sudden, it feels like

[A]

you're like, yeah, it feels like we don't. Do we need to dress, like, go in disguise? I mean, I guess maybe it's not quite as like. It sounds a little comical to me the way that it's presented in the. Especially when you watch any sort of, like, episode about this and it's reenactment style.

[B]

Sure. It's like. Like an obvious costume or something.

[A]

They're dressed. They put a mustache on. But an hour passed. Right. And nobody shows up to collect the ransom. So they're very good disguises of being bus passengers went to waste. What a tragedy. So, of course, now they're like, yeah, well, Greg, clearly, you're like, what you said, basically, if he were involved, like, he would bring the money to prove he weren't involved. It's not really that great of an alibi, you know?

[B]

Yeah, it's like. It's like I could say right now, like, oh, I'm. I found a ransom note. And don't pay attention to the fact that it's my handwriting, but it says that I should give myself a hundred thousand dollars and it won't ever leave the bank account. Oh, no.

[A]

It's so nice that I happen to have this briefcase from my. From Deal or no Deal.

[B]

Right. And it's. Is he one of the people also in disguise for his own? Because then it sounds like oh, no,

[A]

no, no, no, no. That would be Criminal Minds SVU territory.

[B]

Okay. Because I was gonna say that'd be so silly. He's like. And I know just the thing for myself to give myself money about the ransom letter I wrote myself.

[A]

He's like, and this is my disguise boss. Oh, my God. I put in I cat eye contacts and we'. Nobody will suspect.

[B]

No one will ever know who I am. Not even me coming my own way.

[A]

And literally, literally. So Greg.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh, immediately Greg. Nobody you are literally stand out a mile away. So anyway, this Greg. They are. It's just horrible. It's horrible. It's horrible. They suspected that, like, somehow Greg is involved. Whether he actually did anything harmful himself or whether he was just somehow facilitating like the. Whoever was evading capture here, or perhaps he was like the inside contact mentioned in that. In the letter. But they couldn't prove it. Right. And so meanwhile, poor Karen is like, dying. I mean, dying, right. Of a broken heart. Like, she says she can't breathe, and every time she thinks of Chad, which I can only imagine is every second,

[B]

every second, that feels like a thousand hours.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like she just can't breathe. She's gasping for air there. And it. I mean, this goes weeks into months, so just like total turmoil for her. A year later, October 14, 1992, Karen was leaving for work at 7:30 in the morning when she discovered a note on her car. This is also so cruel. This, like, waiting between long periods of time and then like coming back up. I mean, it's haunting. Yeah, she was terrified. But like, also there's this like, hope, right? Suddenly, like, oh, a ransom note. Like, maybe this will finally give me my son back. Or at least answers. Part of the ransom note read, I guess you have suffered enough. Even though he misses you a lot, he will never see you again unless you cooperate with.

[B]

Jesus Christ. Oh, my God. I mean, like, how do you not have a heart attack from the stress?

[A]

I mean, I don't know how she's even going to work at this point. Right. Like.

[B]

No, I just assume you don't grow.

[A]

If you were. Well, you have to. Right? Like, if you're. I mean, you've.

[B]

Yeah, I got bills to pay.

[A]

At some point, you have to live life, which is, I think, probably the hardest part. Yeah. So now she's just totally rocked by this. The kidnappers are demanding $6,000 and no police involvement. And they wrote, last time, death came close upon your son because of your stupidity, because of police involvement, claiming, you know, a forensics Review of the note failed to recover any prints or useful evidence. And that was like, it for years. Like, basically they were like, we don't know if this is a hoax. We don't know if this is, like, real, but we can't do anything to prove it. And that's it. So this woman is being just tortured. Right. Years pass, and Chad's case goes cold. Karen, though, despite knowing the statistics about missing persons, cousins really, truly believed that somehow she would get an answer before she died. October of 1995, four years after his disappearance, a box was delivered to Chad's family.

[B]

I don't even want to know what's in that box.

[A]

I mean, you don't.

[B]

I've seen Law and Order. The box never has a thank you note or something.

[A]

Yeah, it's never anything good or something good. No, no. 40 balls later it is.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

It says there's a note that reads, you only paid part. So here is a part.

[B]

What part? Ear, hand, finger. No, what?

[A]

His skull.

[B]

Okay. There's nothing else to say except. Okay.

[A]

I mean, I'm sorry. That's just like. Huh. It's okay. Here. Here's also, like, this woman is literally in hell. Like actual hell. And now this happens to her. And like the only hope, like, literally the only hope she has left is like, this couldn't possibly be. Be my literal child's skull, right?

[B]

You have just full denial. You have to.

[A]

How could you not? How could you, like, believe.

[B]

Believe that you have to just pray at some. It's not.

[A]

That's all. You have to pray. And so they do DNA analysis. Do you think it can get worse? No, because it's inconclusive. And they're like, well, so we don't even know.

[B]

So now no answers.

[A]

So now it's like you have this new hellish option on the table that you didn't even think was possible.

[B]

Just a nebulous maybe. And then you'll never actually have closure,

[A]

even if it just gets worse. Yeah.

[B]

God. Oh my God. Oh.

[A]

I mean, it's. And he had been too young for like, dental X rays, so they couldn't even compare teeth. It's just like nightmare. So, detectives, it involved Dr. Harold Jill King to examine the remains using forensic anthropology. And finally, like, this is the forensic files. Like, you know, spotlight, computer models, photos of Chad were able to kind of use. Because this was such early days, right, of DNA testing, they weren't able to do that quite as well, but they were able to use, like, forensic models and determine that it unfortunately was in fact Karen's 8 year old son. So that came back conclusive. And with that closure. Yeah, I want to say like with that partial or with that answer, I should say, sure. Karen, like her devastation turned into like rape. Of course.

[B]

Of course.

[A]

And, and no one would blame her, right? No, no, I mean it's just, just. Yeah. But now there's like this certainty that Chad is gone, but also like now months pass and there's no. And there's this rage but no where to direct it. Right. Because you're still like, who did this? We don't know.

[B]

Also there is the. You know, my first thought when I asked, like, was it like what kind of body part was it? Because it's like at least. At least. Which is like. I'm saying that's so, so spare it. So you know, take it, take it. How you assume, I mean the best. But at least he's gone and not suffering somewhere or being tortured somewhere. But you don't even know if he was being tortured beforehand.

[A]

So like my guess is that he was probably killed pretty immediately. It feels like with this kind of thing I would still be.

[B]

So my part of the rage would be me still not knowing how much he suffered or endured before him and

[A]

not having answers to like what, what happened, what he was going through. I mean. Yeah, it's all. Yes, it's just bizarrely a nightmare that like she just cannot wake from.

[B]

Oh my God.

[A]

Yeah. And she's just like. I mean to taunt somebody, it just feels so absurd that you would even

[B]

be doing this, especially seemingly for like no reason.

[A]

What?

[B]

Right, like did like who had a vendetta at all, that even though this is so unwarranted, but like thought that she deserved this and why Woman.

[A]

Right, Exactly. It's. It's just horrifying. So months pass again and in the meantime, police had made arrests in a completely or at least seemingly unrelated case. Two armed robberies of a Texas credit union that took place in the spring of 96. And when they found out they had been caught on surveillance cameras which were installed after the first robbery, Chris Wells and Jean Lindsay confessed to committing the robbery robberies. And then Chris named Patrick Pat Horn as the organizer, like the head honcho of both robberies. So Gene offered more information in hope of bargaining a better outcome for himself. And he described having some info on Pat, their like leader. And he said Pat had murdered this 80 year old man named J.C. lavasseur in a failed carjacking at his fruit stand. Okay, so you remember that first Gene told Police that jc, who he only knew as the old man, had shown them how to drive the truck, which is how it ended up down the road. And afterward, according to Gene, Pat made JC exit the truck. Gene told Pat to let JC go, but Pat said JC had seen their faces and wouldn't be allowed. Couldn't be allowed to live, and was killed. Gene insisted JC would not be trouble for them, and they let him go. But Pat wouldn't back down. This is a. At least how he's explaining this to the cops when he's, like, ratting out his boss guy. Knowing they would not be letting him go, JC tried to run, and Pat shot him in the back of the head. And so now he's telling police this is like a bargaining chip, right? Pat would eventually be convicted for the robberies and JC's murder. But after being arrested for both crimes, he then tried to leverage information he had about a crime. So Pat says he has information on Chadwick's murder and kidnapping and murder. And this intrigues police because he is actually very close with the family, so. Oh, there you go. Okay. Karen had known Pat since he was five years old. He used to come to her house to play with her kids. He was actually just 17 when Chad disappeared, and so I don't think he was even on the. On her radar at this point. Pat told investigators he had witnessed Chad's murder committed by two local drug dealer. So horrifying. Local drug dealers. Luis Carlos Castillo and Silvio Uloa Castanada. And I guess they were referred to as Carlos and Paco. And Pat said he had been forced to dig Chad's grave. This is the information that he's giving to police as, like, more bargaining. Investigators initially received alibis for both of these men, Carlos and Paco, and they considered that maybe Pat was lying and he actually didn't know anything about the case. And it had invented this story until a package mailed to Pat in jail was intercepted where he was incarcerated. And inside was a child's leg bone and a letter threatening Pat against sharing any further information about Chad's case. And they send that to jail and think, like, no one's gonna notice this.

[B]

Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

[A]

Zaro. In desperation to know what happened to her son and, like, wanting the rest of his remains, Karen met with Pat during an interrogation. And in the footage of the interrogation, she said, I treated you like you were my son. Like he would come over and play at their house. Wow. Always welcome in my house. Fed you prayed for you. What about Chad? Do you want to see a picture to remind you? Don't you want to see his picture? I need to know, Pat. I need to know. And when Pat sat still and said nothing, Karen got on her knees in front of him, put her hands on his shoulders and began to beg.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

She said, pat, Pat, I've got to. No.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

And oh, my God, it makes me sick to my stomach. Pat stood up and began pacing, cursing and sobbing, but refused to say anything.

[B]

Oh, oh, my God. Tell her.

[A]

Days later, he told investigators that Carlos and Paco made him bury Chad in his own backyard.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

And In May of 96, he led them to the grave. And in a later interview, Karen said, all the years of hoping that he'd come home at that very moment, Moment, you know, it was over. And that was like the closure, the tragic closure, like not the closure she wanted, you know, so Pat's brother, Keith. Keith. And I don't even. I've never heard that name. Keith. And was in jail elsewhere on a probation violation. And investigators on Chad's case spoke to him. You went by Keith, who confessed that Carlos and Paco had never threatened Pat at all. In fact, Pat had convinced Keith to deliver Chad's remains to both Chad's family and Pat's jail address. And Pat told Keith to write the letters as well. That was the thing too, for me was like, why would this. Like we were saying that too, like, why is this person who's taunting this woman? It's clearly personal. Yeah, I don't know. Investigators finally concluded that it was Pat Horn himself who had kidnapped and murdered 8 year old Chad Choice. And all of this is just like he had made up this sort of drugs, drug story to like, cover up the fact that he had done this to, like a little boy. Okay. So in autumn of 1999, eight years since Chad had been kidnapped from his bed, Pat Horn was convicted for Chad's murder and sentenced to death. Karen found no sense of peace in the sentencing. She said, I have to say, and a lot of people don't agree with me. I basically don't believe in the death penalty. Pat Horn's death is not going to bring Chad back. I would like for him to close his eyes and see Chad's face, you know, and realize not only did he take my baby's life, you know, but his is over. As far as anything he could do successfully. Maybe we'll give him time to think about the havoc and the hurt that he has torn through this family. Family, wow. And ultimately his sentence Was altered to life in prison because he had been under the age of 18 when the crime had occurred. There was, like, an UNC. It was ruled unconstitutional to execute anyone who had committed a murder under the age of 18. So still, you know, didn't bring Chad home. His remains were used as evidence in Pat's conviction, and Pat's defense team could request access to Chad's remains again in the future if they needed to, which also is just like, an extra slap in the face case that they just, like, have access, easy access for their own case. Like, it's just kind of sick.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Due to legal technicalities, Chad's remains, which they call the evidence, cannot be released unless Pat signs a waiver. So, like, oh, basically, isn't that diabolical? Pat had signed the waiver, but it got lost by his. Somewhere between the attorney and the judge, the letter got lost. Wouldn't you know, Pat needs to sign a new waiver if he wants to tap in. Sounds like he was talked out of it because he now staunchly refuses to do so. I'm sure his lawyers would. Were not happy with the first time he did that. For more than a month, he refused to speak with anyone regarding the waiver. And the assistant district attorney said, we have found ourselves in a very, very strange position because now they're like, where's the letter? Like, he claims he signed it somewhere. It got lost. Where is it?

[B]

Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

[A]

Oh, my God. But, yeah, he just refused to say anything or sign another one. So Chad choice was finally, finally laid to rest in a family cemetery plot in 2003, more than a decade after his kidnapping. Which, like, you'd think he'd be 18. Like, that's just crazy.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Karen and Pastor Flora Cobb worked together with the congregation at Christian Teaching center to operate a new, new ministry called Chad Church's Hour Against Darkness. And they run a shelter called Chad's House, which takes in people in crisis. And that includes things like people experiencing homelessness, sexual trauma, substance use disorders, financial hardships, domestic violence, other people in need. And in 2007, Karen was still the director at Chad's house when she unexpectedly died at the age of just 56. Wow. But years later, in 2022, Chad's family announced they once again planned to support their community. In Chad's memory, they did kind of like. Like an event. Like a. A memorial event. On his 30, what would have been his 39th birthday, his older sister Angela, spoke with ABC East Texas about a new foundation that was going to Help support children's hobbies. And she said that Chad loved sports and playing outside. And their mother would have wanted Chad to be able to try any sport in the world that he wanted, find out what he loved. So the cost of participating in all of these things is so astronomical sometimes, especially, like, when you think of the. The gear, the transportation, all that stuff, it's prohibitive to so many families. So the Chad Choice Family foundation would work with families to make their children's, like, extracurricular dreams possible, which is very cool. Yeah, so that's, like, a really cool outreach program or, like, you know, program that they're creating. Writing. Angela felt a responsibility to show support to families in crisis as well, the way hers was when they lost Chad, to offer, like, that same sense of community to people who felt like, that shock wave go through their family. She said, I felt that our families needed to show a unified front because there are other families that have gone through a tragic situation like ours. And even More so from 1991 up to this very day, if we don't share and give back the way our ancestors taught his losses in vain. And Chad's life is not in vain. Vain. It's just like, what the hell?

[B]

That's so sad.

[A]

Yeah. It's just horrible. But I'm. I mean, whoa.

[B]

Yeah, I had to whip out the sensory toys for that one.

[A]

Oh, yeah, that was a tough one. I apologize. That was like a very. Yeah, that was a very.

[B]

Just devastating.

[A]

It is. And, yeah, there's. That's about it.

[B]

Well, anything you're doing later today?

[A]

Well, Leona has little gym, so, you know, I'm gonna maybe take a quick nap before that little hell beast is released upon me.

[B]

You know, whole piece is good. It's a good one. I'm gonna go see the Odyssey.

[A]

Oh, fun.

[B]

I don't know how. I'm only. I'm only seeing it because of the hype. I don't think I would actually.

[A]

I can confidently say I'll never see it, because I already know I'm missing my window to see it. I'll never watch it, but I love the memes, so. Yeah, keep me posted.

[B]

Good. I. I read it in, like, seventh grade.

[A]

Me too. I think on, like.

[B]

Yeah, I know.

[A]

Had way too many nerds ropes to actually be paying attention when it. When we read it.

[B]

But I. I can just sense that my high school. My middle school teacher, like, signed off on getting everyone some sort of, like, field trip to go see the movie.

[A]

It's true. They're so excited. The Latin clubs.

[B]

It's like. Because I'm sure she also did that with, like, Beowulf and all that.

[A]

Oh, my God. Oh, yeah, Beowulf. I forgot. Oh, God. Okay, you triggered me. Anyway, I must disembark. You'll only get that if you listen to the epl.

[B]

Yes. Okay, well, I will see you next week with even more sadness, I'm sure. So. And that's why we drink.

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[A]

Com.