Epstein Files Blocked, Trump Cancelled Colbert? & Zohran's Chances in NYC with Ezra Klein

Summary

Andrew Schulz's Flagrant with Akaash Singh Featuring Ezra Klein

Episode: Epstein Files Blocked, Trump Cancelled Colbert? & Zohran's Chances in NYC
Release Date: July 24, 2025

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1. Introduction to the Epstein Files Controversy

The episode kicks off with Andrew Schulz introducing Ezra Klein, highlighting his insights into the Epstein case and its broader political implications. Schulz references Klein's book, "Abundance," praising its accurate depiction of current societal issues and urging listeners to engage with its content.

Andrew Schulz [00:15]: "It's been on the New York Times bestseller list for 19 weeks. Nothing else is being sold."

2. Mike Johnson’s Recession of Congress

Ezra Klein delves into Speaker Mike Johnson's decision to recess Congress, preventing a vote on releasing more Epstein files. He underscores the unusual nature of this move, suggesting it signals underlying corruption.

Ezra Klein [02:18]: "Congress is an oversight body in part... and I have to say Johnson is not acting like someone who just finds this politically inconvenient."

3. Trump’s Relationship with His Base and Epstein Allegations

The discussion shifts to former President Donald Trump’s handling of base expectations, especially regarding the Epstein files. Schulz criticizes Trump for appointing individuals like Bongino and Cash who initially advocated for exposing Epstein but then suppressed related investigations.

Andrew Schulz [03:35]: "He started talking about Obama. I was like, oh, he's guilty."

Ezra Klein [05:22]: "Trump is protecting other pedophiles. Facts like that's what it is."

4. The Intersection of Media, Corruption, and Political Power

Klein draws parallels between the Epstein scandal and historical political events like Watergate, emphasizing the difficulty of uprooting deeply entrenched corruption. He argues that bipartisan efforts have historically been necessary to expose and address such issues.

Ezra Klein [06:02]: "Another administration would do this in situations where there’s corruption... name special prosecutors."

5. The Impact of Political Polarization on Reform Efforts

The hosts explore how extreme polarization hampers effective political reform. Schulz points out that both parties have internal factions that resist unified reform, making bipartisan solutions challenging.

Andrew Schulz [09:17]: "Why do we have to prove we care about reform now?"

Ezra Klein [14:08]: "Watergate happens during the nadir of party polarization... but in the Trump era, there's no Watergate."

6. Challenges in Higher Education and Affordability

A significant portion of the conversation addresses the skyrocketing costs of higher education. Klein explains factors like Baumol's cost disease, administrative bloat, and reduced state funding as primary drivers of tuition increases.

Ezra Klein [63:17]: "One thing is Baumol's cost disease... things reliant on human beings get more expensive over time."

Andrew Schulz [65:01]: "We have to cut the bureaucracy to make this possible."

7. Housing Crisis and Rent Control Proposals

The discussion transitions to the housing crisis, with Schulz advocating for rent freezes as a temporary measure to alleviate affordability issues. Klein cautions that without increasing housing supply, rent freezes could exacerbate the problem by discouraging new construction.

Andrew Schulz [75:29]: "Freeze the rent while creating more housing, and then it levels out."

Ezra Klein [77:37]: "Freeze the rents while creating more housing, and then it levels out."

8. Political Strategies and Building Coalitions

Klein emphasizes the need for the Democratic Party to rebuild trust by addressing institutional failures and corruption. He suggests that Democrats must acknowledge their shortcomings and present clear, actionable solutions to regain public confidence.

Ezra Klein [89:12]: "If you get into this fight and you're like, well, what you're doing... Just say what you're trying to do differently."

Andrew Schulz [92:00]: "The people are up for grabs. We're trying to hold institutions accountable while building new coalitions."

9. Media Influence and the Cancellation of Colbert’s Show

The episode touches on the alleged cancellation of Stephen Colbert’s show by CBS amidst pressure from the Trump administration. Schulz criticizes media conglomerates for succumbing to political pressures, while Klein questions the economic viability and editorial independence of major news outlets.

Andrew Schulz [154:04]: "They were doing this to protect certain narratives."

Ezra Klein [165:17]: "60 Minutes is a real marquee property... canceling it disrupts journalistic integrity."

10. Conclusion: Navigating Political Corruption and Institutional Trust

In wrapping up, the hosts reiterate the importance of addressing corruption within political institutions and media. They advocate for bipartisan efforts to enhance transparency and accountability, ensuring that reforms are both effective and widely supported.

Ezra Klein [171:49]: "The Democratic Party has to be a bigger tent... addressing institutional failures."

Andrew Schulz [177:24]: "We need to hold these institutions accountable and build trust through honest dialogue."

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Notable Quotes

• Ezra Klein [02:18]: "Johnson is not acting like someone who just finds this politically inconvenient."
• Ezra Klein [05:22]: "Trump is protecting other pedophiles. Facts like that's what it is."
• Andrew Schulz [09:17]: "Why do we have to prove we care about reform now?"
• Ezra Klein [63:17]: "One thing is Baumol's cost disease... things reliant on human beings get more expensive over time."
• Andrew Schulz [75:29]: "Freeze the rent while creating more housing, and then it levels out."
• Ezra Klein [89:12]: "If you get into this fight and you're like, well, what you're doing... Just say what you're trying to do differently."
• Ezra Klein [171:49]: "The Democratic Party has to be a bigger tent... addressing institutional failures."
• Andrew Schulz [177:24]: "We need to hold these institutions accountable and build trust through honest dialogue."

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Key Takeaways

• Epstein Files and Political Corruption: The decision to recess Congress to block the release of more Epstein files suggests deeper corruption within political institutions.

• Trump’s Leadership Critique: Despite initial promises to address corruption, Trump's administration appears to perpetuate and protect entrenched corrupt networks.

• Party Polarization: Extreme polarization hinders bipartisan reform efforts, making it difficult to address systemic issues effectively.

• Higher Education Costs: Rising tuition is driven by factors like Baumol's cost disease and administrative expansion, exacerbated by reduced state funding.

• Housing Affordability: Rent freezes could offer temporary relief but must be paired with increased housing supply to prevent long-term issues.

• Media and Institutional Integrity: Alleged interference in media operations, such as the cancellation of Colbert’s show, undermines journalistic independence and public trust.

• Rebuilding Democratic Trust: The Democratic Party needs to acknowledge institutional failures and present clear, actionable solutions to regain public confidence and build broader coalitions.

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This episode provides a deep dive into the intertwined nature of political corruption, media influence, and systemic challenges in higher education and housing. Through candid discussions, Schulz and Klein explore the complexities of current political dynamics and the urgent need for bipartisan efforts to restore trust and implement meaningful reforms.

Transcript

[Andrew Schulz]

What's up everybody? Welcome to flagrant and today we are joined by New York Times bestselling author. I think it's been, do we say 16 weeks now?

[Ezra Klein]

Is it something like that? Longer, I think.

[Andrew Schulz]

I don't want to show.

[Ezra Klein]

I don't want to get it wrong. I don't want to get it wrong. It's a lot of weeks.

[Andrew Schulz]

Okay, the author, the co author, I should say, let's give Derek some credit of abundance, which I think addresses with amazing accuracy a lot of the issues that are going on today. I implore you guys all to go read this. Obviously New York Times bestsellers, so many people have. But please go listen. You could listen to it. That's what I. You can listen to it right now. I have Spotify listen to it. But we're here with Ezra Klein, everybody. And you know Ezra's got good insider information. He knows exactly why Mike Johnson shut down Congress. So he's going to tell us this is not opinion is 100% fact.

[Ezra Klein]

Go for it, Ezra. Yeah. So we started on the easy one, huh?

[Andrew Schulz]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ezra Klein]

So I listened to you all in Epstein and it had been in my head when I just did an Epstein show and I did, I read all the Epstein coverage and like went back and talked to people who knew more about it than I, I did. And I come to the view that you could explain away most of it. And then Mike Johnson recessed Congress rather than even allow a vote on it. And it's really hard to believe there isn't something weird when the people with power are acting that weirdly.

[Akash Singh]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schulz]

Can you explain what that means to recess Congress?

[Ezra Klein]

Yeah. So he used his power as speaker to send Congress home. Congress has a schedule. It can be recessed. There were enough Republicans breaking with the Trump administration to force a vote alongside Democrats. I think you guys had Ro Khanna on, right? Yeah, yeah. To force a vote with Democrats to release the files. Much more of the files. And if you. So I read. Did you guys read the FBI, the FBI DOJ memo?

[Akash Singh]

I read nothing ever.

[Ezra Klein]

So the FBI DOJ memo says why it's not going to release the files. And it says that the files are braided together with information about women and girls and it doesn't want to like their priority is not re traumatizing, re.

[Andrew Schulz]

Victimizable, even though they're begging for justice. So have we asked the girls at all?

[Ezra Klein]

Right, so that's I guess fine on the memo.

[Andrew Schulz]

Redact the guys names.

[Ezra Klein]

That is not a reason that Congress would force itself into recess. Right. That is a like a preference on the part of the DOJ and FBI. But Congress is an oversight body in part. Right. It's another branch of government. And I have to say Johnson is not acting like someone who just finds this politically inconvenient. He's acting like someone who can't let something happen. Yes, there's a. And also it would be if the whole thing for them now was just they think on net it would not serve anyone's interest and just be intrusive to release this. Fine. Like again, that's a reasonable take to have had. But there is so much ferment and interest that you would think they would say, okay, well this is what people want, this is what Congress wants. You know, we told you we don't think there's anything here. But I guess you guys can look at it or they could give it to committee under closed door privileges. Right? There's a lot of things you can.

[Andrew Schulz]

Do, things they can do.

[Ezra Klein]

And the weirdest recessing Congress is not usually one of them.

[Andrew Schulz]

Here's the weirdest thing about it. Like Trump is usually so transactional with the base. The base asks for something, he listens. I would say he listens to the base way more than any politician that I've ever seen. There are certain politicians that might push back against their base cuz they're like, ah, this wouldn't really go along with policy that we want to do. Trump is like, hey, the base thinks vaccines are fucked up. RFK, get in there. January 6th vaccine.

[Ezra Klein]

They want him out, they want him.

[Andrew Schulz]

Out, we're putting him out. And this, he is rebuking the base, like almost like spitting in their face like they are asking for it. He campaigned on it. He puts Bongino and Cash in there, which might be the stupidest thing in the history of the world. Like, why would you put the two guys that have nonstop pounded the pavement talking about how we're going to expose this Epstein thing and the second they get in there like, you better shut the fuck up to shut them up. Go on, Rogan, lie. Like, it is a very peculiar thing. It worked in that I think it moved any of the smoke off of Trump because at least for me, I was like, there's no way that he's involved if he's putting Bongino and Cash in, who have campaigned on exposing it. Like, why would you hire those guys or appoint those guys, right? So I'm like, he can't be. But the fact that he will not touch this. And then this last week him doing the distractions, dropping the mlk. Like, who asked for the mlk? Who asked for mlk?

[Akash Singh]

You know what's funny is I'm not a huge conspiracy theorist, and I was initially like, the Epstein thing for me was just the last straw in terms of you not getting things done. And I was like, yeah, I'm sure there's some smoke. They'll release it. But the more they're doing to hide it, the more I'm like, oh, they're hiding something crazy.

[Ezra Klein]

Where.

[Akash Singh]

I didn't necessarily. I was like, there's probably something.

[Andrew Schulz]

He started talking about Obama. I was like, oh, he's guilty.

[Akash Singh]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schulz]

Like, why are you talking about Obama and treason? You got a guy who has sex with teenagers that you are protecting.

[Ezra Klein]

Also, some of the lies are pedophiles.

[Akash Singh]

Yeah.

[Ezra Klein]

Trump is protecting other pedophiles. Facts like that's what it is. Or.

[Andrew Schulz]

Or Epstein. Because I actually think, like, I actually think Epstein was a pedophile that was also involved in nefarious activities for maybe our government and other governments, and they're protecting that relationship they have with him. I don't think it's like the CIA was running a pedophile ring to blackmail people. I think Epstein was a pedophile, obviously, heinous one. But he had these relationships with all these powerful people around the world, and if you have that type of power in those relationships, maybe our government would want to have access to that.

[Ezra Klein]

So you think Epstein was the only one messing with the.

[Andrew Schulz]

No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Of course not. But I don't think that's what the government's protecting.

[Ezra Klein]

So here's what another administration would do, right? Because you've had things like this before where there's been a fear that they cannot investigate it or prosecute it independently. And they often name special prosecutors. We saw this under Bill Clinton, Right. We saw this under Joe Biden around. Hunter. Biden, yeah.

[Andrew Schulz]

Shout out Hunter, man. He's making a comeback.

[Ezra Klein]

He's making that, too. They're not doing anything. They're not doing any of the things you can do when what you want to say is like, look, there's information here that everybody can't have. It violates privacy. But we are going to put someone credible in charge of it, somebody we don't control, and their report is going to be credible to you, and they're just not doing. Acting like that. Also, the thing I thought was funniest in all this was when the Wall Street Journal released that letter. That is like, in the Epstein 50th birthday book, and there's a doodle from Trump. And Trump's like, I don't draw. And then the Times is like, here is a gallery of doodles that Donald Trump has done and sold for charity. And then here's from his book, he.

[Akash Singh]

Said, I don't use the word enigma. And then they're like, here's him using the word enigma twice in a 15 second video.

[Andrew Schulz]

The funniest argument that I saw about it was, this is too poetic for Trump.

[Ezra Klein]

I would 100% believe he didn't write it. He just drew the naked woman.

[Andrew Schulz]

Fair enough, Fair enough.

[Ezra Klein]

But the argument compromised on that.

[Andrew Schulz]

The President of the United States of America is too stupid to write this, therefore it must not be him. That was the argument that people were.

[Ezra Klein]

Going, I can give you the argument for why you should believe there is less here than one would think. Okay, less here, meaning in Epstein, right? This is sort of where I was a week or two ago, which is that the amount of firepower, like investigatory law firm, repertorial and government firepower that has been aimed at this thing, trying to find lawsuits to bring. Because there's money, there's money here, there's media here, whatever. Like, whether people used to be scared of Epstein, they're definitely not.

[Andrew Schulz]

Now.

[Ezra Klein]

It's like the best media organizations in the world, the biggest law firms in the world, the Biden administration, the Trump administration. You tell me there's something none of them can breach. Like, I found that hard to believe. And the thing that is weighting down the other side of it for me is how much they're like, the Trump administration appears to be panicking panic mode, like genuinely panicking, as there are demands to breach it. If it wasn't dangerous, I don't know why they don't give it to Congress.

[Andrew Schulz]

There's a. I mean, it has to be dangerous 100%. And I think there's an interesting thing happening, which is like, there are definitely a lot of Democrats that are interested in this story because it's putting pressure on Trump. And what I would say to conservatives is, don't do the finger wagging. Don't be like, why didn't you care about this four years ago? I would say, like, you get the same, you want to know what's going on. Now you have bipartisan support to figure out what's going on. You're on the same page. Let them in. Don't go, where the fuck were you for the last four years? Who gives a fuck? Now they realize that they want to have this, let them get there. And that's what I've seen, like a little bit of this. I've seen little conversations online, like, Biden had it for four years. Why weren't you asking about it? Now you're only asking because of Trump. Who gives a fuck? Get the info.

[Ezra Klein]

Also, the Trump administration and the people around them made this part of their platform. The Biden administration did not come in with their vice presidential candidate podcasts swearing they would release the Epstein files. Like, this was not a big, you know, theory, conspiracy explanatory thing about the world in Bidenland, but huge amounts of MAGA have been very bought in. Like there was like the Q and A version the first time it moved over to this. I mean, and there's some part of me, right, as somebody who's like a little bit mistrustful, often of conspiracy, when you sit back and you're like, we've seen Cosby, we've seen the Diddy parties, we've seen the Epstein thing. It's this weird thing about QAnon which obviously was full of horseshit. And then there is more elite sex criming happening, you know, and apology. And more of it would have was going on with like the knowledge other people than. Than one would have thought, like, even like going back to that weird Trump comment on Epstein that, like, he loves beautiful women as much as me, but he likes them young.

[Andrew Schulz]

Yeah, right.

[Ezra Klein]

Like he knew. Yeah. You can say what he wanted to say about whether or not he was involved, but he knew.

[Andrew Schulz]

Yeah. Yeah. And he wasn't the only one that knew.

[Ezra Klein]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schulz]

And that's the other thing that's so weird about this story is that I find it hard to believe that there's not at least a team of people. You're saying there's one wrangler, which is Ghislaine, and then there's Epstein, and he's managing billions of dollars with the most powerful people in the world. Like, there's no assistance. There's no coworkers, there's no banker, there's no lawyer. Like, who are these other people that are associated with this enterprise? I don't know any of their names. I know two people. Doesn't that feel weird to you?

[Akash Singh]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Andrew Schulz]

There's 12 people that work here every single day. Every single day. For some reason, he was able to run a billion dollar empire, get one of the wealthiest people in America's assets sent over to him, have power of attorney, and nobody knows the lawyer that even did that. Deal.

[Ezra Klein]

I do sometimes read things, not just about Epstein, but about all kinds of, like very rich person, scandaling. And I think like, where do you have all this time? Me, with my less busy life, do not seem to have. I'm having trouble getting to the gym. You're running this, like, while you are jetting around on your private jet running your master lawns, you're also somehow that the scheduling must be.

[Andrew Schulz]

This is the difference. You have kids, he has sex with them. Having kids is way more difficult.

[Ezra Klein]

Okay.

[Andrew Schulz]

They require your time all day. They require 15 minutes of his time. Okay, so continue doing that.

[Ezra Klein]

Yes. Yeah. I guess the argument would be like, well, he's a rampant pedophile and Ghislaine is the madam that's wrangling them and that is kept secretive from all of his other, you know, like, legal business. Wasn't the structure of it, if, if I understand it correctly, that it worked like a multi level marketing scheme, basically they would bring in. They would bring in girls and then they would basically say the girls that if you bring in others, we will pay you. Like, they made the people they brought in and abused into recruiters. That's what I understood from my life.

[Andrew Schulz]

It was like cocoa knives or whatever.

[Ezra Klein]

Yeah, it was coco. But people knew. Yeah, right.

[Andrew Schulz]

Yeah.

[Ezra Klein]

I mean, they're just. They just had to.

[Andrew Schulz]

So the thing that I was asking.

[Akash Singh]

You before is like, is it possible.

[Ezra Klein]

This could be Trump's Watergate? So there are two pieces to that, I think. One is that, let me. There's a reason nothing can be Watergate again, which is that in Watergate you had an independent. This was a time. My first book is Not Abundance. Why We're Polarized is about party polarization. And Watergate happens during like the nadir of party polarization, which is to say the two parties are very mixed. You have a lot of liberal Republicans of conservative Democrats. So the congressional parties are very independent. This world, like if you imagine Watergate happening with Fox News and like the hyper polarized Republican Party of today, where something like Mike Johnson recessing Congress to keep a vote he doesn't want from happening, there's no Watergate. Watergate relies on the Republican Party turning on Nixon, demanding the information, and then ultimately going to Nixon and saying, you have to resign. But in terms of can it be a scandal that up ends envelopes Trump and that he kind of can't get away from it seems like it is. And one of the reasons I was thinking about this, liberals like me always complain about how they feel nothing sticks to Trump. And one of the reasons that so little that they care about sticks to Trump is that the things they are thinking of that need to stick to him are things in their worldview. Right? And so if you have their worldview, my worldview, if you're mad about him lying to his people about cutting Medicaid or something, and people care about that and who would believe you on it? They already don't like Donald Trump. Like, it's already done. This is happening inside maga's worldview. This is, it's like under their framework of the world.

[Andrew Schulz]

This is a great point. And I think that this is something that, like when I'm, when I'm having conversations with more liberal friends, I'm like you, echoing your sentiments of the things that frustrate you about Trump to other liberals. You already won them over. They have to be communicated in a way where the right is convinced so they can be brought over to your coalition and, or you just get pats on the back. And I guess that's fine if that's what you're into. But like the reality is you're going to keep losing elections. We're in a democracy and you need to bring people over. You lost, you need more people. Some people went over and you need to bring it back. So it's like, how are you taking those? What, what are these specific arguments that you're going to use that will appeal to them? Like, I don't even know if we want to go to Colbert so quickly, but like, there looks like there's some fucked up shit with this Colbert thing. But what I would say is the fact, and I'd want to open that up and talk about it, but the fact that the show was losing money, anybody on the right will just go, but it was losing money. Why should it stay open?

[Akash Singh]

You guys don't understand economically, that's the liberal problem.

[Andrew Schulz]

And I think sometimes liberals put all their eggs in these baskets that don't appeal to the conservative side at all. So it's not going to affect them. It has to be an issue that they're going to be tugged at. Epstein tugs at them, also tugs at Democrats. Why would you not want to know about government corruption? Why would you not want to know about the covering up of a pedophile? This is important shit. So this is one of those things where I think Democrats don't get distracted. Don't get distracted by him doing the Obama thing. Don't get distracted by the MLK shit. Don't get distracted by the Washington Redskins that's distraction for liberals to chomp at and go, you see, he's a racist. He See, he was. No, no, no, stay on Epstein. And when the entire country is just asking about Epstein, something's gonna break.

[Ezra Klein]

He's not trying to distract us. He's trying to distract his people. He's trying to feed Wall Street Journal, the Murdochs, Obama, it's like spinning a giant wheel.

[Akash Singh]

I think it does both.

[Andrew Schulz]

Right. Because the Democrats start to go, look how racist he is. He wants to bring back breadskins. And then his base goes, ah, shut up. You guys are triggered by everything. And then the conversation is about that.

[Akash Singh]

Yeah. I think his point is for. To borrow your verbiage from earlier, if we're looking at the worldview of conservatives, so much of it rev around protecting children. Don't teach them xyz. Don't do gender reassignment surgery. Don't abort babies. This pedophilia thing is really bad. And if you're a Democrat and Trump is trying all this fuck shit with like, Obama did this. Obama. Instead of saying, look at what Obama's doing, say, what he's doing is a distraction from the harm of children and conservatives. If we want you to realize this guy isn't who you thought he was, I'm staying on that. I'm not being like, look. Because then all these other things, there's usually an exit ramp because it doesn't matter in their worldview, where it's like, oh, the Redskins. Yeah, of course the Redskins should change their name. That's stupid. Oh, Colbert got canceled. You guys don't understand how money works. It doesn't make money. And then they get distracted from. Now they're going to get distracted, but every one of it takes them one degree away from Epstein thinking, keep it on Epstein.

[Ezra Klein]

Yeah, I think that's a good point. I was thinking it's interesting about a different part of the worldview. So you're right about the protecting children dimension of it. I was thinking more about the. There's a kind of, like, conspiratorial populist worldview that is in maga. There's a version of it on the left, too, but I'll stay with the right for a minute, which is there's a corrupt, maybe pedophilic elite that is running everything. And what Donald Trump is, is a kind of human vengeance sent to destroy that. Yeah. And once we destroy that, once we break it, then we can have the country, the world we want. And one of the reasons it's like Biblical. One of the interesting things happening, I think, in Trump's second term, the reason this has happen in this very different way, the first, in a way, is weirder, right? He names Alex Acosta, the prosecutor who gives Epstein the sweetheart deal, to be Labor Secretary, and then Acosta resigns functionally over this in 2019. But it never becomes a huge story. One of the reasons I think things don't stick in, under this framework in the first term is that Trump didn't really control the government and everybody kind of knew it. Right? You could call it the deep state, you call it the bureaucracy. Right. But he was like his own administration, his own appointees like HR McMasters, like, to some degree, people like Jared Kushner. He was surrounded by people who sort of thought he got some things right, but also thought he was kind of a maniac and were trying to restrain him. And he was in this terrific tension with his own administration. So the advantage I gave him is when things went wrong, he's like, they're doing it right. The deep state is blocking me. Right? We're like, we're here. We're continuing the fight. It's why a weird conspiracy like QAnon can flourish during his administration. Like, isn't this guy in charge?

[Andrew Schulz]

But the idea is nothing's happening.

[Ezra Klein]

No, he's not really in charge this time. Time he's in charge and all the people are his people.

[Andrew Schulz]

So this is a fantastic point. And some people might say, like, I was talking to Hasan Piker about this, and he was like, you have to understand what his argument was. And I hope I'm not butchering this Hasan, but like, he basically said, like, there are people that are in government, like the institutional old guard government actually don't want to have full power. They don't want Congress and the presidency because then they'll have to make the change they promise. They act like, so like a Democrats in power. They actually kind of want the Republicans to have Congress so the Democrats can talk about all the change they want it.

[Ezra Klein]

That's good to tell you. This is not true.

[Andrew Schulz]

Okay.

[Ezra Klein]

I know these people.

[Andrew Schulz]

The argument is, is like, as long as they're talking about it and not doing it, yeah. The military still gets the money that they're getting. Right. The foreign wars continue to happen, and in this circumstance, the Epstein files don't come out. And there's a convenient excuse that you can say to your base. Trump would say, the deep state isn't letting it happen. Or the Democrats who are in charge would be like, the Republicans are not letting it happen. But in reality, the donor class is like, great, don't change a thing. Because the donor class doesn't want anything changed. And I thought it was an interesting way of looking at it. Now, Trump does not have that bad guy he can point at. You got everything you want. So now his base is going, fucking deliver. You know, this base is going, hey, we gave you the whole country. You got to deliver on it. And you're not delivering. We're still doing all these wars. The Ukraine one is tricky because you're dealing with Putin, who's literally, you know, a psycho. But with Israel, like, if you want to cut off funding, you cut off funding. It's over. You have the ability to do it. He can't do it, right. So the base has and does not.

[Ezra Klein]

Want to do it. I think it's really like, you look at who he's appointed around that he does not want to do. Mike Huckabee is his ambassador there. Steve Wyckoff is a negotiator. These are not people who think this war has gone much.

[Andrew Schulz]

I almost thought you were going to stop a sentence that these are not.

[Ezra Klein]

But on the things of what he's delivering, it's like, look, the rich guys got their tax cuts, you got Medicaid cuts. You got your Medicaid and food stamps taken to where you will in a couple years when all that kicks in after the midterms and you don't get your files.

[Andrew Schulz]

So the base has every right to be upset because you campaigned on these things. You're delivering none of them. And here's great opportunity, I think, for Democrats to seize some of the base. I get it. And they did. Today they're going, don't you dare. You had them on your podcast. There's always a finger wagging. I get it. Get out of your system. That's fine. Feel whatever you want to feel. After you get out of your system, you want people to come over, and now you have an opportunity to be like, hey, we told you he was a liar. Here's the proof that he's a liar. Come over here. Here are some ideas that might be better. You might like these. If you just go, hey, fuck you, you're dumb. The people that are called dumb are never going to come to your side.

[Ezra Klein]

Did you see the clips of Jon Ossoff, the senator from Georgia?

[Andrew Schulz]

What do you say?

[Ezra Klein]

I don't know if we could pull it up because I'm not going to be able to do it justice. But he's been on the stump. He's running for reelection and he is building the corruption argument that has always been there, that it was clear somebody was going to pick up, but he's just doing it. Well, it's not that often I see a single clip of somebody and I just mentally on one clip I'm like, okay, in the 2028 grip.

[Andrew Schulz]

So hold on, wait, wait. Break that down about the 20.

[Ezra Klein]

It's worth it.

[Akash Singh]

I don't be a presidential candidate.

[Ezra Klein]

Yeah.

[Akash Singh]

All right, guys, let's shout out some dates. August 1st and 2nd, Kansas City, Missouri. August 8th and 9th, Harrysburg, Ohio. That's Toledo, I believe. August 22nd and 23rd, Liberty Township, Ohio. It's a lot of Ohio. September 11th and 13th, I'm back in civilization in Donna Beach, Florida. September 25th and 26th, back to Helen, Ohio. And this is a show that's, I'm very excited to do it, but it's going to sell out. October 5, Dubai Comedy Festival. I didn't get to go last year. It was a big mix up. This year I'm there. The tickets are already like 80% sold out. So you need to hurry up and buy those. All those dates and more@akash singh.com get your tickets. Also, I am very excited to announce the Akash Singh Show. This is my podcast. I flew out to India to record a bunch of episodes because of everything that is happening with free speech over there, court cases with friends of mine being threatened with jail time. Honestly, I'm not sure how many episodes I can put out because lawyers have been calling me left and right and my friends lives are in danger. But we are still going to put out a bunch of great episodes with people that I'm excited to talk to. So it's on my YouTube at Akash Singh Comedy. Please check it out. I love y'. All. Thank you guys so much.

[Ezra Klein]

Levittown, Washington, D.C. chandler, Arizona.

[Akash Singh]

San Diego, Burlington, Vermont, Montreal, Toronto, Berkeley, Detroit.

[Ezra Klein]

A bunch of other dates getting added. I can't wait to see you guys at the show.

[Akash Singh]

I'll be doing one hour of stand.

[Ezra Klein]

Up comedy that no more, no less.

[Andrew Schulz]

See you guys at the show.

[Ezra Klein]

But the reason I brought it up in that context is one of the things that happened to Democrats over the past couple of years, it happened in 2020. Then it really happened in 2024, is you really lose the highest ground in American politics, the most ideal political ground when you lose the stream of reform.

[Andrew Schulz]

The stream of reform?

[Ezra Klein]

Yeah, when you don't have the argument about reform. Obama was a reformer. Bill Clinton was a reformer. Donald Trump was a reformer. Hillary Clinton very much not a reformer. Joe Biden running for people. I just wanted to make sure you understand the system.

[Andrew Schulz]

Exactly. Yes. Okay. Running against the system is a great way of putting it.

[Ezra Klein]

The difficulty Trump has now that he was able to sort of weave out of in his first term is like when you are a truly anti system candidate, when your whole point is this whole thing is corrupt and now you are in charge of it, how do you avoid the inevitable problem of having to take responsibility for it? In his first term, he had a version of that. So then Joe Biden wins and it's a pandemic. There's a lot of dimensions about that election. But Biden, whatever he is, he's not a reformer, but he's sort of a return to normalcy. Then by 2024, he's unpopular, he's in his 80s, and he and Harris just cannot not run as reformers. Right. They cannot run against their own.

[Andrew Schulz]

Harris didn't even try. She literally not even try. Biden's doing great. Well, because I think Biden just gave her his whole staff and now she can't take his.

[Akash Singh]

Well, I would just love to hear why you think. Because what I hear is Biden said to her, no daylight, kid, you're not going to do that. I don't know.

[Ezra Klein]

I think both for personal reasons where I do think she had a lot of loyalty and affection for him. And I think it's actually a trickier thing than people give credit for. You imagine she comes out as a vice president and like, really tears in to where the administration say, went wrong on inflation or went wrong in immigration and somebody says, why don't you talk.

[Andrew Schulz]

About this for the last few years? Were you there 100%?

[Ezra Klein]

Like, weren't you in the meetings?

[Andrew Schulz]

She's in a tough position.

[Ezra Klein]

I think it's a death mission. Like, I think they sent her on a death march. This is why I was arguing forever that you needed like an open convention because you, like, she can run.

[Andrew Schulz]

This is what all the.

[Ezra Klein]

At least like, let people. Let people have the argument. Yes.

[Andrew Schulz]

This is where I think the lack of accountability is happening on the left. Like, I think, I think a lot of people, I don't want to call the all left, but like the angry online left, where I think a lot of them just want to make it about, oh, Trump came on podcast or Trump, whatever. It's just like, yeah, but you ran a dead guy and then a woman that couldn't speak. Like, at a certain point in time, you need to have a fair election primary and the people will tell you what they want. And what they want might not be what the institution wants. And I think that's what has been happening. And I want to talk about.

[Ezra Klein]

There's nobody who is arguing louder or earlier for an open convention. I literally believe in the country than me. So I bet you got a lot.

[Andrew Schulz]

Of criticism for that.

[Ezra Klein]

Yeah, I got a lot of shit for that.

[Andrew Schulz]

So what happened when you were bringing it up?

[Ezra Klein]

When I was bringing it up. So when Biden gives the press conference after the Robert Hearst special Prosecutor report. I'd been at the White House that day and I was watching in my hotel room that night, and he goes out, if you guys remember this, but the report comes out and basically says, we're not going to prosecute this guy. He probably did mishandle classified material. Subsequent revelations have made this look worse. If you read the Jake Tapper Alex Thompson book Original Sin. But. But we're not going to prosecute him because the jury would see him as a well meaning, but somewhat doddering old man with a faltering memory. What we now know, because we've got, which I did not have when I wrote this, what we now know is that Biden's performance in those interviews with special prosecutor her was catastrophic. There really did seem to be something wrong with his memory. And we now have these transcripts and we have this audio. And so something really was wrong there. But a lot of Democrats took it as a. Just kind of partisan or like a way for her to kind of like hit Biden even though he couldn't prosecute him. Okay. So that night, Biden, infuriated, goes out and gives us press conference. And this is one where he mixes up Egypt and Mexico. And I watched that. And this was right around the time they decided not to do the super bowl interview. Yeah, and he just wasn't doing interviews.

[Andrew Schulz]

Pyramids. Pyramids. Though.

[Ezra Klein]

I actually don't ketchup.

[Akash Singh]

Egypt. Mexico.

[Ezra Klein]

Mexico.

[Andrew Schulz]

Egypt. Yeah, yeah.

[Ezra Klein]

Pyramids.

[Andrew Schulz]

Pyramids, yeah. Ezra, we're travel a bit.

[Ezra Klein]

Yeah, right. Not as worldly as I could this year.

[Andrew Schulz]

Only the Jews made pyramids.

[Ezra Klein]

I've been in Mexico. Pyramids, actually. And I just had this moment that night. I was like, this is not going to work. If what you're doing is a press conference to reassure people about your memory when you almost never do extemporaneous speaking anymore and you can't make it through the 20 minutes, this is not going to work. So I did a series of pieces without like, going through everything. The big argument I make is that the thing that Democrats were saying at that point, because you had super majorities of the public saying, this guy is too old. Like, whatever you think of him, like 70 to 80% of the public did not want him to run for reelection.

[Andrew Schulz]

I don't think they wanted Trump either. I think they 70% wanted neither of them.

[Ezra Klein]

But the party primary bases are very loyal to their people. But the thing was, he had sort of made it through the primary already. This is, you know, I think it's February 2024. And my argument in this was not that he was told to run, a lot of people said that, but that the Democratic Party was pretending there was nothing left to do, right? That it was already over, but it wasn't. The actual candidate is chosen at the convention. For most of American history, both parties chose candidates at contested conventions. And I was like, you could do that. He could step down and you could have a process leading up to the convention that ends in a contested convention. Everybody would watch it. It'd be incredibly dramatic. And yes, it could go badly. But if you keep doing this, this is definitely going to go badly, right? Like, you're not going to make it through here. But I get huge pushback. Everybody thinks I'm an idiot. I get a lot of internal. And then all goes quiet. He gives a good State of the Union, and everybody's like, ezra, you fucking idiot.

[Andrew Schulz]

When you watch that, where you're like.

[Ezra Klein]

Damn it, I watched it. I was like, where was this guy? I did a thing after the State.

[Andrew Schulz]

Of the Union.

[Ezra Klein]

I did a thing after the State of the Union where I was like, look, I don't know how to account for that. All I know is, like, there's a long time between here and the election. And if this guy's having good days and bad days, you better really hope he never has a bad day. And if he's on an important day.

[Akash Singh]

There'S four more years and there's that.

[Ezra Klein]

And so then you have the debate where he has the bad day on the big day, right? And so then there's not a lot of time. It takes him weeks and weeks after the debate to finally decide not to run. And by the time that happens and he endorses Harris, the party internally just doesn't have the energy for it. It doesn't believe in itself. It's like, been a very brutal and emotional fight, but it was a mistake because they were changing their charact candidate. And the thing that always frustrated me about it was look, if your belief about Donald Trump is that he is fascism on American shores, then what that means for you is not that you have to yell that at everybody else. It means you really have to try to win.

[Andrew Schulz]

Yeah, Right.

[Ezra Klein]

If then you have to figure out your absolute best candidate against him. And you're not going to do that without any kind of process it surfaces information.

[Andrew Schulz]

You are preaching to the choir here. You can't simply run a campaign of that guy's worst. You have to run the campaign of reform, as you said, and the campaigns. And the reason why we need reform is because there are people struggling that want change. And I think that oftentimes we have more optimism and hope for the reform candidate, even if they can't exact those policies.

[Ezra Klein]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schulz]

Or enact those policies.

[Ezra Klein]

This happened with Obama. It gets disappointing, but there is that.

[Andrew Schulz]

Moment where you have hope. And hope is, like, tantalizing. Dude.

[Akash Singh]

Unbelievable.

[Andrew Schulz]

And in this certain situation when people are desperate and they really want change and they're faced with this idea of more of the same or potential happiness, they're willing to, like, look past a lot of.

[Ezra Klein]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schulz]

And that, I think, might be the scenario.

[Akash Singh]

And I think the status quo thing and versus reform thing is also very important because a lot of times we get lost in the weeds arguing whether Kamala was a good candidate. We don't think she is. Some people will never agree with that. They'll think she's great. But you cannot deny there was no reform offered in a time when we weren't happy. Whether you think Kamala could have been president or not, that no one's getting elected.

[Ezra Klein]

So this gets, I think, something really deep. So the parties. So it used to be going back to this book on polarization I did years ago, the parties for a long time weren't polarized at all. They had all kinds of people in them. Like Strom Thurmond, you know, was a Democrat Right. Before he became the most or the second most conservative Republican. Right. This happened constantly. You had, you know, George Romney, Mitt Romney's father. Like, by today's standards, if fun should be a liberal Democrat, but he was a Republican. So the party's polarized on this line of liberal and conservative. And like, that's politics as we know it for a long time. Right. That's Paul Ryan and Barack Obama. That's Mitt Romney and Barack Obama or Mitt Romney and Hillary Clinton. Like, pick your. Pick your leaders. What has happened since Trump has been. It's polarizing on a different line, which is system. Anti. System. Yeah.

[Andrew Schulz]

And by system you mean institutions. Institutions.

[Ezra Klein]

How do you feel about the universities? How do you feel about the scientific. Not science, but Democrats always say it's science, it's the scientific institutions. How do you feel about the government itself? How do you feel about, you know, name it. Right. And that didn't used to be quite so like it used to have a big anti corporate left. Right. Like so the parties have become like the Democrats have become the parties of the institutions. And this is partially because Donald Trump is so anti institution that he drove a bunch of institutional figures out of the Republican Party and basically into the Democratic Party. So you have this weird election, right. In 2024. You have Liz Cheney, I was about to say. Yeah, right. Moving basically into what I would call she wasn't a Democrat, but into the Democratic coalition, the sort of pro system coalition. And you have RFK Jr. Who is like considered to be, I think it was epa, Environmental Protection Agency secretary. As liberal as you can be under Obama, who runs for. Runs as a Democrat in I think it's 2023 when he's running and he goes into the Trump administration. And so the difficult thing Democrats are going to have to figure out here to take advantage of what you're talking about is the Epstein files have given them a moment in which to do it because it's easy for them. They actually like they don't have at least the Democrats in Congress anything invested in this. But if they want to over time peel off some of the Trump coalition, they have to find ways to be actually kind of anti system. Right. They can't just be the party that we believe in science and we believe in government. You have to know these things have flaws and failures and you have to balance the fact that you don't want to burn them to the ground. Yep, right. Which is I think what Republicans are often doing. But nor does that mean you should rally in defense of the status quo.

[Andrew Schulz]

Yes.

[Akash Singh]

Yeah. I think the science one is also interesting because when you say scientific institutions, it's like, sure, there's probably some Republicans who are anti science or whatever, but the scientific institution of pharma, that's an institution we don't trust. And you can understand where that distrust comes from and maybe you can meet them halfway on that and you have and understand why they feel that way.

[Andrew Schulz]

And there are Democrats that, that have shown like amazing distrust towards it. Like Bernie has been rallying against it for years. Yeah.

[Ezra Klein]

I mean farm is easy for Democrats like every Democrat, like Democrats have fighting four years and finally inflation reduction act got some of it in like driving down pharmaceutical drug prices and Medicare. Democrats are. They find it easy on pharma. The question is more. I don't know how to describe it. It's like Democratic Party, the other thing that's happened has become a very educated party. And the Republican Party has become like the party that wins most people who graduated high school. Democrats win most people graduated college. And like this really shifted. The parties, like people graduate college are like more yoked into American institutions. They believe in more in part because those institutions have worked better for them.

[Akash Singh]

That's a great.

[Andrew Schulz]

Give, give a great example about how those institutions are working for the college educated and against the high school educated.

[Ezra Klein]

Well, like just take Covid. Yeah, right. You're like a white collar office worker.

[Andrew Schulz]

Yeah.

[Ezra Klein]

There's lockdown. You're like sent home. And then we have these like quote unquote essential workers who we call essential, but like we're putting them out in harm's way. But also we've made like their jobs much, much harder. Like they're having to wear all this kind of protective gear. And there were reasons for everything. I mean, some we now know in retrospect, like we're bad. You know, you're going to have mistakes. Hindsight's 20 20, right? Hindsight is 20 20. So I'm always very careful about this. But, but it just worked really differently. People experienced very different covids depending on whether you were like a college graduate who worked from home or you were like out there like being pushed in. But also having to like undergo all these new, all these new rules. But also just the economy works differently for different people. If you're, you know, a high school graduate, most job don't even hire without a college graduate without a degree. Or, or like you' like just in time scheduling and you know, then somebody telling you like, no, don't worry, GDP's up this year. Like, that's bullshit free. It's not up for you.

[Andrew Schulz]

It doesn't affect you at all.

[Akash Singh]

Oh, the stock market is up.

[Andrew Schulz]

Great.

[Akash Singh]

I don't own a single stock.

[Andrew Schulz]

It's the worst statistic to decide if America is doing well. Yeah.

[Ezra Klein]

So you can come up with all kinds of versions of these, but just a party that is getting richer and more college educated is going to be more comfortable with the way things work than a party that is shifting the other direction. Now, there's still contradictions in these parties, right? I mean, Republicans just passed a giant bill cutting functionally $5 trillion of taxes heavily tilted towards Rich people. And the only part of it they paid for, which is like about a trillion dollars, they paid for by cutting Medicaid, snap, which is food stamps and like green energy investment. Right. So the Republican Party has not actually become a populist party, but it has a populist affect. And now Trump is like running into the wall of that affect. Right. They fed it, they voiced it themselves, and now it is them. They are the system. And all of a sudden they're like, no, no, no. Trust the institutions. Trust the FBI and the doj.

[Andrew Schulz]

You told us not to trust them.

[Ezra Klein]

Yes. You told us it was all deep state to trust nobody. You're going to drain this swamp. Trust us. This is all a radical leftist plot and you're like bread and circusing us with like, AI videos of, of Barack Obama getting. I mean, it's, I'm always amazed to me, like, at how much disrespect Trump often shows for the people who believe in him.

[Andrew Schulz]

This is, but this is the opportunity, I think, for Democrats right now. And I think you, like, are, you know, I think you're, you're voicing it in like a really brilliant way, which is everything that Trump, I want to say everything. But the, a lot of the things that Trump have done reinforce the institutions that he was so critical of. Right, right. He's continuing the wars. He's like, I'm going to stop the wars day one, continuing to fund them. He's not releasing the Epstein files. He's increasing the budget. So the base that was promised these things. And now he has unilateral support, like, he can take Congress, he can do whatever he wants. He's choosing not to do these things. And these are a choice. The base is furious about this. How do Democrats come in and seize that?

[Ezra Klein]

I mean, I think they're doing a pretty damn good job, actually. Like the ones who came in and said, we are authored legislation to force these files to release. I love what Roe did and we're gonna build a coalition.

[Andrew Schulz]

I love it.

[Ezra Klein]

And like Roe, he's a very liberal guy, very progressive. I mean, a co chair of the Bernie Sanders campaign a couple years ago. He's good at building bipartisan coalitions, like on foreign policy. Right. On things like whether or not Congress has like, power over war. Roe is good at working across the aisle. He's a very, very talented politician. And because of that, so they're doing a good job on that.

[Andrew Schulz]

But because of that, the Democratic establishment hates him.

[Ezra Klein]

I don't think they hate Roe.

[Andrew Schulz]

I, I wouldn't I think Roe thinks they do. We had RO1 and he was like, I get so much criticism. They don't want to support what I'm doing. This happens all the time. And I think he's operating on an island. And I think that this is a problem because I think the Democrats are fighting the institutionalists within the party. And the real support, like the, the ground support you feel is for the more progressive side of the party, which seems to be answering a lot of the problems that, that the people that maybe voted for Trump have.

[Ezra Klein]

I will say if you spend. I don't want to discount any experiences Roe's had or the congressman has had. I will say if you spend a lot of time talking to members of Congress in the Senate, and I do, they all think the leadership doesn't support them. Like, not literally all of them, but.

[Akash Singh]

It'S a common refrain.

[Ezra Klein]

It's a very common.

[Andrew Schulz]

Because what I mean by this is like there haven't been actually, I don't know if this is true to this day, but like Zoran wins.

[Ezra Klein]

Yes.

[Andrew Schulz]

The primary. That's a, that's a different single Democrat has endorsed him. Not a single Democrat within.

[Ezra Klein]

Jerry Nadler endorsed him.

[Andrew Schulz]

What is he. Is he.

[Ezra Klein]

Jerry Nadler is like the, like dean of the New York congressional delegation. It is true. I don't know if it's changed by now.

[Andrew Schulz]

Okay, maybe not.

[Ezra Klein]

It's Schumer and Jeffries like kept their distance. I don't know if they've changed by now.

[Andrew Schulz]

And I would say that Schumer and Jeffries kind of represent the Institutional Democrats, the system Democrats. So it seems like the system Jeffries.

[Ezra Klein]

Still hasn't backed him.

[Andrew Schulz]

Jeffries hasn't backed him.

[Ezra Klein]

Right.

[Andrew Schulz]

So it seems like, I think, at least for the people, that the system wants to maintain the status quo, as you said before, is not down for reform, but the people want reform and the people are optimistic about reform without really understanding if these policies that Zoran has can work.

[Ezra Klein]

Well, here's what Schumer and Jeffries are thinking. We could talk about Mamdani, who I like in a bunch of different ways, but they're terrified, not of New York City or what's going to happen here. They are worried about running, trying to win Senate seats in Kansas City when because of the dynamics of the attentional economy, the only Democrat whose name people know is Zoramdani.

[Andrew Schulz]

So they think that the Zorra Mandani policy will engulf the Democratic Party.

[Ezra Klein]

It's not the policy. That's not their concern. But The. The vibe and the weakness. The reform direction. No, I wouldn't call it the reform. Like this happened with aoc, but it happens at Marjorie Taylor Greene. Right. I don't want to. I'm not. I do not think AOC and Margie Taylor Greene are the same by any means. But the parties tend to get defined by the loudest interesting figures in them.

[Andrew Schulz]

Yep.

[Ezra Klein]

And one of the dynamics that is very hard for party leadership now is that they have very little control compared to what they used to have, over how their party is seen. Right. So Jeffries and Schumer have their strategies. They would like to have the Democratic Party understood as being about certain things and not about other things. But instead, the thing people know is who's. Is. They see who's going viral on X or TikTok or Instagram or whatever, and it's not the people they would choose. Right. Saying the things that they would say. Like, the last thing Schumer and Jeffries want to talk about is the value of the term globalize. The intifada.

[Andrew Schulz]

Right.

[Ezra Klein]

They just do not want to talk about that at all. And the. The problem for them with Mamdani is that he creates that conversation. I was just watching a speech JD Vance gave the vice president at the Claremont Institute, which is the Claremont Institute. Claremont Institute is a sort of far right think tank. They were giving him the Statesman Award. And I would love to talk about the speech, which I just did, which I'm having a piece come out on, because it's very much about what citizenship should be about. But the entire first section and end of that speech that Vance gives her about Mom, Dante. Right. He wants to define the entire Democratic Party, entire left around Mamdani to Vance. Mamdani is a soft target.

[Andrew Schulz]

This is what.

[Ezra Klein]

Right. And that's the fight those figures are having along each other.

[Andrew Schulz]

This is what I think Republicans do really well is they exploit the most extreme version of Democrats and then they paint it across the whole party. So in this last election, like, the most effective ad was Trump is for me and you and Kamala is for they. That. And there was that ad about, like, Kamala supports, like, trans surgeries for inmates.

[Ezra Klein]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schulz]

Like, you remember this ad that they ran. I think they ran in the Super Bowl.

[Ezra Klein]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schulz]

And it was a great. They did a great job of painting the party in one light, and it was based on the most extreme version. And I think Democrats maybe try to do it, and maybe Republicans are like, yeah, we're cool with that too. Like, I don't know what that is. But it does feel like the institution is like fighting tooth and nail to stop the perception of the party changing. But here's the reality. If the people want that part of the party, there's nothing you can do about that. In democracy and fighting, it makes those people feel like you don't want that change that they desperately want. And now you become the status quo that they are fighting against. So they don't really have a choice. It's like democracy, for better or for worse. Zaun's going to. If the people want Zoron, whether we like it or not, if the majority of New Yorkers want it, we have to let that happen. If it goes horribly and we can go into some of those policies and if he'll even be able to do them. But, like, you cannot restrict what the people want in a democracy. And if you do try, which is what Trump is also doing January 6th, they'll be furious. They'll be furious about it. And his base is furious. Democrats are furious. And I fear that's kind of what's happening with Zoron.

[Ezra Klein]

I think it is not going to work, which is flatly not going to work, Zoron or No, I'll finish the sentence.

[Andrew Schulz]

Yeah.

[Ezra Klein]

For a Democrat to try to keep an arm's length distance from their nominee for mayor in America's biggest city, like, it's just not going to work. But they've done it with Bernie and AOC for quite a bit. Well, they have. I mean, they try.

[Akash Singh]

Although mayor of New York is also a little different than what, a senator from Vermont and then AOC Democrat primary.

[Ezra Klein]

But this, to me, is a bit of a difference. I mean, Bernie Sanders is on Chuck Schumer's leadership team, or at least I don't know if that's true for this Congress. But he was in the last one. Right. They have tried to bring him in. There is tension between them. Right. It's a big party, and they have their disagreements. That's different than the Jeffrey Schumer we're not going to endorse. We need to have conversations. Right. The question of whether or not AOC is a Democrat, you know, who will be endorsed in reelection campaigns is, like, not up for grabs right now. And Mamdani. I'm just saying it's not going to work for them. Like, they. They're going to need to figure out what to do with the energy Mamdani has unleashed. They cannot hide from it and they cannot oppose it because that will crack up their coalition. The thing Republicans do for Better and for worse. I mean, they do try that. Paint Democrats by the most extreme candidates. Democrats do that to the right too. Right. The thing that has happened on the right is they have embraced outside of themselves. Right. I always think about this. If I had, like, if I had been a liberal substacker in the fall 2024, I was like, fucking people. You don't understand what's coming. If Donald Trump gets elected, he's gonna make Cash Patel and Dan Bengino the heads of the FBI. He's gonna put RFK Jr. At HHS. He's gonna try to make Matt Gaetz like the Attorney General. He'll be like, calm down, dude. That's ridiculous.

[Andrew Schulz]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ezra Klein]

It's a little like, you can't define the Republican Party by its most extreme wing. In some, like, way. It is its most extreme wing. That would have been like, I would not have written that. I would have found that far fetched. Like truly far fetched.

[Andrew Schulz]

Yeah.

[Ezra Klein]

It's like people threatening, oh, they're going to do Project 2025. And then they're like, no, that's.

[Andrew Schulz]

You're, you're overreacting.

[Ezra Klein]

And then you're seeing slowly do all of Project.

[Andrew Schulz]

Did you read Project 2025?

[Ezra Klein]

I read a lot of Project.

[Andrew Schulz]

It's like 12,000 pages.

[Ezra Klein]

Yeah, it's like there's this idea that.

[Andrew Schulz]

Like everybody read it and they're like, how have you not read product 2025? I didn't read War and Peace either. Like, nobody read the whole fucking thing. And I'm tired of people acting like they read the whole thing. You saw a few headlines about it and you're like, okay, they're doing the exact thing they said. But it's just like the Constitution. It's like none of us have read the entire Constitution.

[Ezra Klein]

It's much shorter. The Constitution. You do like an hour.

[Andrew Schulz]

Fair enough. Okay. But it is like it's 12,000 pictures.

[Akash Singh]

What have they done from Project 2025? I asked Chad GBT what it was. I already forgot. I forget everything.

[Ezra Klein]

All right. Project 2025. So it's. I love that I get to do a Project 2025. Explain it for the flagrant audience. Project 2025, it's 800 some pages. I think if I remember correctly what happens. There's a Heritage foundation, which is like a big right wing think tank. Brings together over 100 right wing groups and they're like, we're going to create the menu. We are going to create. Like it's not like one playbook because actually A bunch of parts of 2025 contradict themselves. It isn't one thing that you could just like do the whole thing. But if you read it, one of the biggest things that it is about is the takeover of the administrative state. I will say right at the beginning, it also argues for banning porn, which they haven't done. Right. Like, there's a lot of things in there that you would not expect because it's also representing a lot of different factions. Have you been to Florida? It's partially the Heritage foundation also making a bid for leadership. Right. Showing that we're the people, bring everybody together, like we are the conveners of everything. But it is like it's a lot of right wing policies of all different kinds of some of again, which contradict each other, some of which they've done, some of which they haven't. But the thing they did the most from it is Project 2025 is a vision of how to use the tools of the government and the leverage of the government to first break the bureaucracy and like the deep state, or the administrative state, as it's like more often called in there, in order to have control of it.

[Andrew Schulz]

So it's consolidating power.

[Ezra Klein]

It's consolidating power and then using a lot of that power against other elements of society to make them come into alignment with, with you. For example, everything they're doing on education, right, where they're trying to break the. That actually also comes out of the Heritage foundation in a different way, but where they're using federal money to try to break the universities and force them to come under, in some cases the administration, some kind of receivership or conservatorship, but certainly under some kind of control. And it makes them afraid of who they hire and who they bring in. This is what they're doing with Harvard.

[Andrew Schulz]

And how exactly are they using this consolidated power to leverage that control over Harvard?

[Ezra Klein]

So what they've been doing there is a mixture of things. They've been first trying to cancel all the money that Harvard gets from federal money for scientific research, which is billions of dollars. There are other kinds of subsidy and grant programs. The universities are very, very woven in with the federal government because federal government just funds a huge amount of the basic research in this country. Then there's also student loans. Obviously some people go on student loans. They've been threatening accreditation. Right. The idea that you would have Harvard University not be an accredited university would probably break accreditation more than break Harvard. But nevertheless, you've been trying to do that they took a run at making basically, Harvard, like a lot of universities, has a lot of foreign students. And they do this for different reasons because it's good to educate people from the whole world. But also those students pay a lot of money to be there, and they use that money to subsidize the American students. So it's.

[Andrew Schulz]

If you, you know, I think that's a very favorable look at it.

[Ezra Klein]

No, that's literally true.

[Andrew Schulz]

There's a $50 billion endowment, and you're telling me that they're using some Chinese kids tuition to pay for some American. Why.

[Ezra Klein]

Why Harvard doesn't spend down their endowment is like its own question. And, like, it's a worthwhile question. But it is just the case that they. I mean, and basically all the. I mean, I went to uc, right? Like they have out of state students they used to subsidize. Ian state students. You're welcome, Right?

[Andrew Schulz]

You're welcome.

[Ezra Klein]

Okay, we were talking about this.

[Andrew Schulz]

All of you are welcome. Welcome.

[Ezra Klein]

They just do do this. So if you go to Harvard and you're like, from a family in Ohio who makes $75,000 a year, you're not paying tuition. Right. But what the administration has been trying to do and getting in a bunch of court fights about is trying to basically say Harvard cannot use a provision of immigration law that allows for the foreign students to come in.

[Andrew Schulz]

Now, I understand this idea, and I think it's like a. It's a decent justification of saying, hey, we're using these guys to pay for the students in America that are going now. Now, the amount of foreign students they've been taking has been increasing exponentially. I think, like, what does it say 20 years ago or 30 years ago, it was between like 2 and 5%. I think Columbia is now at 70%. So I think that there is a concern that our finest institutions are not educating America's finest.

[Ezra Klein]

I think that's. I think that's fine. I don't know what the numbers are for Columbia or for Harvard.

[Andrew Schulz]

I think Columbia is like 70. I think Harvard maybe like 40, 50 or something like that. Columbia International student population, 40%.

[Ezra Klein]

Okay, 40%.

[Akash Singh]

70 seems crazy, but 40, still high.

[Ezra Klein]

Okay, fair enough.

[Andrew Schulz]

So for me, as an American, right, I have a daughter, you have kids, you hopefully knock on wood. They're really smart, and they have the opportunity to go get educated. Our finest institutions. And now they're fighting with the Nepo babies that end up going because their dad and their granddad went. So those slots already taken. And then the oligarchs kids that are going to go because they're going to spend astronomical amount of money so they can go there.

[Ezra Klein]

And.

[Andrew Schulz]

And you feel like. And this is the same feeling that I think that, you know, a lot of people.

[Ezra Klein]

And they want the donations of their parents for the endowment later.

[Andrew Schulz]

Exactly.

[Ezra Klein]

Which is a big part of this. So.

[Andrew Schulz]

So. So I think what a lot of Americans feel is like, wait a minute, do I not have an opportunity to get educated by our finance institutions that my tax dollars are actually going to pay for? Whereas these foreign students that are going to pay. Yeah, they're maybe paying double, but they haven't been paid taxes their entire life.

[Akash Singh]

Not to justify what Project 2025 is.

[Andrew Schulz]

Yeah.

[Ezra Klein]

Look, I'm just thinking this is, I think, a reasonable argument in service of a different policy.

[Andrew Schulz]

Fair. Fair. But I guess what I'm trying to argue for is this sentiment of Americans who might not understand how those policies align or misalign, but this feeling of, why am I not being able to take advantage of something that my country offers its people.

[Akash Singh]

It feels like college has become a business, and that's a sentiment that they can take advantage of with.

[Ezra Klein]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schulz]

And especially when you hear about this $50 billion endowment. Again, I'm sure there are restrictions as far as how they can spend that money. Of course we can get into the nitty gritty of it. And that is the truth. And we should talk. But the average person that's not aware of how an endowment works, all they hear is. And they understand is, wait a minute. Harvard's got $50 billion. Is Harvard even a university or is it a hedge fund administration?

[Ezra Klein]

I mean, it is a saying. That's the reason why they're taking that money away.

[Akash Singh]

It's the sentiment that allows you to take advantage of.

[Andrew Schulz]

It's more the sentiment that I think is a fair frustration that people have. And I think they're. And I think the administration has taken advantage of that sentiment. Sentiment. To administer this control leverage that they.

[Ezra Klein]

I think if you. Which is unfair. There are a bunch of ways in which institutions in American life benefit from either public money or largesse or support of some sort and do not give back enough or work in a way we think is fair. I am like 1000% on board. There's a lot of organizations in this country, including a lot of religious organizations, that I don't think in the way we do. The tax code should be exempt from tax. Should be exempt from taxation. Right. The administration has been. I mean, they didn't even start on the foreign students Thing that was something they figured out later was like, as a. As a vulnerability later, because what they wanted Harvard to do was have to run who it was hiring and who was admitting the administration.

[Andrew Schulz]

Yeah.

[Ezra Klein]

Right. And so the plan here has been.

[Andrew Schulz]

Which I disagree with 100%, the plan.

[Ezra Klein]

Here has been to break these institutions and force them to come under the Trump administration's control. Right. And the things you're saying are reasonable and in a country that worked better. Right. And in a country where we could have these conversations, solve problems, you could 100% imagine something like members of Congress collaborate on a bill that says you cannot be tax exempt as an American university if you have fewer than 80% of your, you know, graduating class from the United States. Yeah. U.S. citizens or, you know, residents here or whatever it might be. Right. You can imagine a bunch of versions of this. We just don't live in that particular.

[Andrew Schulz]

I guess what I'm saying is, like, it. I think it's important to, like, meet people where they are emotionally when explaining these things, because if we write off that sentiment, then they'll just write off the argument, which is a great argument, this idea that the administration is trying to really, like, force control and make them bend the knee to whatever they want to do, which we don't want. We want these universities to operate with autonomy and not bend to whatever administration, administration is there. But at the same time, there are legit concerns about these institutions that have some ungodly amounts of money and seemingly are not looking out for the best interests of American students.

[Ezra Klein]

I think it's almost like white lives matter. It's like we're talking about black lives matter right now. And you're like, oh, but white lives matter, too. And I'm like, I understand. You should acknowledge it. But it's like, if that's not what the administration is targeting or the reason why they're targeting, like, why even discuss that?

[Andrew Schulz]

Well, what you have to do is you to got go. You have to at least go, hey, white lives do matter, dude. And. And you're 100% right about that. And when we say black lives matter, we're not saying that white lives don't, because they do that matter and they're equally important. But here's this circumstance right here that we're trying to work on, and we'd love your help because your lives matter also. So we'd love your help on understanding this issue. But if we go, yeah, that's what you voted for. Yeah, shut up. Like, if you go shut up, you'll Never get their support. And you need their support on this.

[Ezra Klein]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schulz]

And that's, that's where I feel like a lot of times the finger wagging or the don't you dare mentality or you're too stup to understand this, you completely lose support from the people you actually want to bring over. Liberals are going to be on board with the liberal cause already. So you either pat yourselves on the back and say we're so smart and we understand everything and big Trump bad, or you go, this is why this is not working for you. And they're taking advantage of your emotional reaction.

[Ezra Klein]

I think a thing, and this goes to the anti system, pro system coalitions thing, I think a thing that Democrats are going to have to spend some time doing if they want to become the kind of coalition that can come a lot closer to neutralizing the threat that to them MAGA poses. I think among Democrats it's very easy to have a kind of conversation about what is wrong with the country. Like what's wrong with how much money rich people have versus poor people. Like what's wrong with health insurance. Right. What's wrong on this or that policy area? Fine. Everybody's comfortable with that. I think there needs to be a conversation about what's wrong with the institution. What from your perspective or from my perspective, like a liberal perspective, where do you think they're failing and what would you do about it? I mean, Abundance is very much a book about what is wrong with government institutions and particularly in blue states or when Democrats are running them, and very much a book about what has sort of gone wrong in a bunch of public scientific institutions. Right. So it's sort of one thing we are attempting to model in There is a kind of self critique of institutional failure that is nevertheless grounded in our own values and our vision of what kind of world we would like to see in the future. But as you're sort of saying in this conversation, I think if you get into this fight and you're like, well, what you're doing on the universities is horrific. And then somebody pops up and says, well, you weren't saying anything about all these failures in the universities that you're admitting now three years ago. Well, I mean you could say, well I was focusing on other things three years ago, what was going on. Harvard didn't strike me as the biggest deal in the world, but it's fair. Right. It does not show to people that you cared about what they cared about. Now did that many people care about Harvard and its sort of percentage of foreign Born students. I'm a little skeptical of that. But there are a lot of things they did care about, but maybe they weren't aware.

[Andrew Schulz]

Maybe now that they're aware, we can meet them where they are.

[Ezra Klein]

Yes, but now that's what I'm saying.

[Akash Singh]

And I think the larger. Sorry to interrupt. I think the larger issue is not about Harvard. It is about this feeling that college has gotten so crazy. Expensive prices keep going up. It's just this feeling of being betrayed by institutions that people who are the new conservative feels. And it's like, I remember I graduated in 2002 from my college, my school, 25, 000 a year. I went back to do a show in 2000 or graduate 2006. I went back in 2009, it was 45, 000 a year. And it's like, this is a feeling people have. So you guys, you've become a business.

[Ezra Klein]

Yeah.

[Akash Singh]

You don't educate us anymore. You've become a better business. And I, if I do graduate, I don't get the money I used to get before. I don't get the jobs I used to get before. And I think, to Schultz's point, just acknowledging, hey, I get you're frustrated about that, but what these guys are doing is not going to ease your frustration. It's just allowing them to do some fuck shit.

[Andrew Schulz]

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You got on dumb early.

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[Ezra Klein]

Yeah, Go, go.

[Andrew Schulz]

Can you, can you explain how the cost of education has skyrocketed? So, like, do you understand how that happens? Conflict.

[Ezra Klein]

I want to try to do a good job of this. If you asked me healthcare, I would have done so. Been so much better.

[Andrew Schulz]

I just want to say, like, for this conversation, I'd like there to be no minorities in the room. So, so, but, but, and again, you don't have to give us, like, the perfect example. Like, I, I more or less. Can you tell us how this happened?

[Ezra Klein]

Yeah. So there, there are a couple things happening here. And I just have in my head my, like, education policy friends who actually know this and are going to yell at me for what I get wrong because I've not looked at.

[Andrew Schulz]

Okay. We're on flagrant. We're just having fun.

[Ezra Klein]

Talking about cost inflation culture.

[Andrew Schulz]

Yeah.

[Ezra Klein]

So one thing is that I'm going to rank these from, like, sort of benign.

[Andrew Schulz]

Yeah.

[Ezra Klein]

To more problematic. Okay. So one thing is, Jesse, was this thing called Bommel's cough disease. Bombles bomb, moles, B, A, U, M, O, L. Bommels cost disease. And the basic insight of it is that things that are reliant on human beings over time get more expensive, not less expensive. As societies grow richer, things where we make them tend to get less expensive. Right. Flat screen televisions, or in one of the very classic ways of looking at this, if you think about how cheap it is to now get a recording of classical music done, it's nothing. You pay nothing. Whereas the symphony costs a lot of money to go to. Whereas generations ago, it was actually less expensive because a lot of people went and saw live music because it was not all this other stuff. So this stuff where we can digitize it, the stuff where we can make it in machines, it tends to get cheaper over time. But when you need a lot of skilled human labor and colleges are built on skilled human labor, that labor gets more expensive.

[Andrew Schulz]

Why is that?

[Ezra Klein]

Because we just keep paying people more over time. Right. People do not become cheaper.

[Andrew Schulz]

Okay. So you keep paying people over time.

[Ezra Klein]

So this is true in a bunch of areas. So healthcare is like this too. This is one of the big reasons healthcare costs so much. Nurses, doctors, teaching. Right. Things where you have to keep up pay scales. In a society that is, like, growing and getting more affluent, it tends to see its cost inflation, like race ahead of things like consumer electronics. So that's like benign. Right. That's like a thing that you can't make A teacher cheaper or you shouldn't.

[Andrew Schulz]

But the idea is that you can make a flat screen cheaper. So that's why you can mass produce it.

[Ezra Klein]

But that doesn't. There's a lot of things that doesn't explain. Another thing is we have cut a lot of the money. This is speaking about public universities here, not private. We've cut a lot of the direct money we spent on public universities over time and we've passed that on to students and families. So in different periods where states, which are the people primarily fund higher education, have to make big budget cuts, it tends to cut budgets there. And then one of the things they do in those periods is they bring in more out of state students, they bring in more foreign students students, and then they get sort of used to those income streams.

[Andrew Schulz]

So let me slow you down right here, just so I understand. So we need to cut the budget, the state budget. So we're going to cut the funding that we have for the state run universities. The state run universities still have to maintain their budget. So they push that cost onto the.

[Ezra Klein]

People so the cost of tuition goes up. One of the things about the tuition you were talking about a minute ago is tuition has gotten much, much trickier to evaluate because a lot of people, huge amounts of people don't pay full tuition. So the headline tuition goes up and up and up. But we've created a weirder market where people are paying much different rates depending on how much their family made. So that's another thing. There's a huge amount of administrative bloat in higher education. You just can't get away from that. If you look at funding structures of the personnel there and you look at how many administrators they have per faculty member compared to what things were like 30 years ago or 40 years ago. We have just added administrators and staffing at a crate. And a lot of people ask, and I'm one of them, like are we getting much for that? Is higher education so much better? Are all these people doing so much or have we just has like the bureaucracy become kind of self perpetuating?

[Akash Singh]

If the reason you go to college is what we were told is so you can get a better job, we're getting much less for much more money than what we got 20 years ago.

[Ezra Klein]

I mean, part of that is just more people going to college.

[Andrew Schulz]

Sure. For whatever reason, the college premium is no longer.

[Ezra Klein]

The college premium goes, goes down. Then there's things about the colleges competing with each other on amenities. And this is sort of related to the administrative stuff. But you know it's like when I went to college and I went to UC Santa Cruz and then ucla, the gyms were nice. Like that's a trail facility, like the pool, like the climbing wall, whatever.

[Andrew Schulz]

Why is there a fucking climbing wall?

[Ezra Klein]

Like, there's no way to get education. But part of it is that with the selective ones, at least, which is what we're talking about, community college is still very cheap. Right. With the selective colleges, they now compete with each other for the best students. And like the richer students, because the best students get you good ratings and, you know, U.S. news and world Report.

[Andrew Schulz]

The richer students pay for everything.

[Ezra Klein]

The rich students pay for everything. And so one of the ways you get them is when they come and do their tour on your campus. They take you to.

[Andrew Schulz]

It's like the Four Seasons.

[Ezra Klein]

Exactly.

[Andrew Schulz]

They take you to all the amenities.

[Ezra Klein]

So there's been money in that. I am sure there's a bunch of. Of other dimensions. I mean, there's also an issue with increasing amounts of student loans, some of which do get pocketed by the colleges. And they just use that to sort of like increase the rate because it's complicated. But the way student loans work, it just. If everybody's got them, you can kind of. Everybody can pocket at least part of it. So.

[Andrew Schulz]

So that's what I want to talk about a little bit. Like, I think it's quite benevolent to have a loan. Student loan process in America where they basically say, hey, we're going to give you the money, money to go to school, no matter how much it is. Like, there's no cap, really. Right. Like, whatever the school costs, we will give you that loan. And then you're gonna have to deal with it. I think the idea is quite beautiful. It's like we want our people to get educated and the government is going to back these loans so that we'll have an educated populace. Is it possible that there are people at the universities that are taking advantage of that blank check?

[Ezra Klein]

I mean, it's, I don't think, arguably arguable.

[Andrew Schulz]

So that.

[Ezra Klein]

Right. Some of them. But it's like, I'm not trying to.

[Andrew Schulz]

Paint everybody as an affair.

[Ezra Klein]

I'm actually saying not even some of the universities. I'm saying some of the check. Right. Which is to say that there's a lot of research on this. You do a big increase in student loans, all of a sudden students have more money to go to college. The colleges will like take that money. And it's not like they don't put all. I mean, they don't Just pocket all of it. Right, but yes, right.

[Andrew Schulz]

I'm not even talking about pocketing it. I'm just saying, like, let's not pocketing it. Let's say they're just building more climbing walls.

[Ezra Klein]

But that's what I mean about that. Yeah.

[Andrew Schulz]

Like, I don't think that they're like stealing money, but if it's a blank check, that check is going to go up. If for example, the student loan lending services, what is it? Is it Fannie Mae or Sally Mae or one of those Sallie Mae? Right.

[Ezra Klein]

So Pell Grants, there's all these different things.

[Andrew Schulz]

But like if they limited the total amount at $150,000, that's how much university was cost. And maybe there would be less amenities and maybe there would be less bureaucracy, but there is no limit. So why would they limit the bureaucracy and why would they limit the climbing walls? If you put a guardrail on it, they'll be forced to decrease the cost of education or increase the amount of foreign students to make up for it, which could also piss off Americans.

[Ezra Klein]

So this was a huge fight in the Obama years. One of the things that sometimes like frustrated frustrates liberal wonky people about this stuff is that in ways that were not well covered, there have been a lot of efforts try to do something here. So in the Obama years, they did a bunch of higher ed reforms and one of the things that they tried to do was. And again, I'm worried about getting things wrong from memory, but. So if I get things a little bit wrong, forgive me. What they tried to do was tie a bunch of things in how we funded colleges and who could take the loans and who was accredited to the rate of loan repayment. And the thing they were tracking there was like, how can you define which colleges are truly failing their students? Right. How would you go about and try to figure that answer out? There are a lot of colleges, right. They're all across the country. Who's failing? One way to figure it out is where do you see people going to college, either completing it or not completing it and then unable to pay back the loans they took to go there. And so what the administration did sort of as I remember, but against the Santa Barbara.

[Andrew Schulz]

That's how you define it.

[Ezra Klein]

How dare you. You went to Santa Barbara, Right.

[Andrew Schulz]

Nobody's paying back those loans. Dove still got loans from UC Santa Barbara.

[Ezra Klein]

So that's a situation where they began to try to crack down, including by the way, on one Trump University, which had problems like this. Right. A lot. So the first thing they began to focus on were these like for profit degree mills. When we talk about this, we're thinking about UC Santa Barbara, we're talking about Harvard, we're talking about the, this like upper crust of selective four year schools.

[Andrew Schulz]

Right.

[Ezra Klein]

It's like 50 schools.

[Andrew Schulz]

Yeah.

[Ezra Klein]

Most people don't go to them.

[Andrew Schulz]

Right.

[Ezra Klein]

Most people are just going to schools you haven't heard of or you know that they're just not as selective and they're the people who are mostly really in trouble afterwards. Right, right. And so that's where a lot of the legislation started.

[Andrew Schulz]

That's interesting.

[Ezra Klein]

And where they're trying to do things. Did it go far enough? Like, I'm sure not. I think one of my frustrations is like the new right, the sort of trumpist right. It has if you read their books and their literature and like the smart people and so a lot of good critiques of colleges in there.

[Andrew Schulz]

Right.

[Ezra Klein]

And they come in and do completely politicized horseshit. Right. They're not trying to make them better, they're just trying to break them until they bend the knee. Which to me there's like a particular pain in watching people identify problems, come into power without the coalitions and make those problems hard to solve and then just like also refuse to to solve the problems because they're so focused on their own resentments and enmities. But yeah, it would be good to really think about higher education. I'll pose this as a question, I guess for you all. I think at the base of a lot of this conversation and the ways that higher education has gotten, if we want to say it off track, is there's not actually an agreement in society anymore about what is it for. Is it to deepen your faculties as a human being? The older view of higher education, Read the great books and literature. Is it to get a good job? To get a job?

[Andrew Schulz]

No, I think for some people, and I think that does still exist, I think the quickest pathway to upward mobility is through education. I think if you're somebody that comes from destitute poverty and you manage to get a college education, you'll get a job. And yes, you might be saddled with these loans for the rest of your life, but you'll be able to move out of poverty. What's happening right now, I think is that middle class people, I think this brings us to Mamdani, is like middle class people feel entitled if they go through the system that they have been promised. If they go to school, they take out the loans, they get the education that they will be promise upward mobility. And now they're in New York City and they're paying $7,000 to live in a one bedroom apartment and they have $2,000 worth of loans every single month and they have a job that pays six figures, which is like, holy, I'm rich. But then they realize they don't have any money left and they really don't see upward mobility even in the company. A lot of their friends are getting laid off and they're going, fuck, I did everything right. I did what you guys said I should do, but I'm not going to be able to buy a home or start a family. And there's this extended adolescence, right, and we're distracted with fun to go to in this party and this concert. But in reality it's like, when do I start my family? When do I become an adult? And I think maybe it's a good way segue into Mom Dani. Because simply freezing the rent, right, is an amazing feeling. I cannot imagine how amazing that feeling is for somebody who sees their rent go up 3% every year, whatever it is, and goes like, I don't think I can afford, like my salary might not go up that much. How the am I going to afford this freezing rate is great, but in essence, it's like pushing the student loan debt onto the landlord. Because if the student loan debt is the thing, right, that's crushing you, if it's that $200,000 that you have to pay off and that's coming down to a few grand a month or whatever it is, and now you don't have any increase in rent, you're like, okay, I got a little wiggle room now because I don't have to worry about that going up because I still got to pay for this debt. So I think a lot of. And if you've seen like Mamdani's base, I think it is a lot of like middle class people that are college educated that are like crushed by these loans and just the of living and they just need a break somewhere. And that's I think where you go to the government to offer that break. And I think he's satisfying it with his promises. I don't know if he'll be able to deliver on those. But I 100% get why people are, are like wishful about it. I don't blame them if you're meeting.

[Akash Singh]

People where they are. You grew up in New York, so the prices don't seem as insane to you? Coming from the outside to New York, probably the Rent prices, it's. It feels like a robbery.

[Ezra Klein]

Yeah.

[Akash Singh]

It's like there's no way. This is not a criminal activity.

[Ezra Klein]

They.

[Akash Singh]

You're doing that. An apartment that would cost me $600 a month in Dallas, Texas, cost me $4,500 a month in New York City.

[Ezra Klein]

Yeah.

[Akash Singh]

So you meet me where I am. You freeze the rent.

[Andrew Schulz]

Something got to give.

[Ezra Klein]

And the only way to fix that is you create more housing. So you freeze the rents while creating more housing, and then it levels out.

[Andrew Schulz]

It's almost like somebody wrote a book about how important it is, or at least housing. Maybe you guys should read Abundance. It's been number one for 18 weeks.

[Ezra Klein]

Or maybe I didn't say number one. It's just been on the seller times.

[Andrew Schulz]

Bestseller number one for 19 weeks. Nothing else is being sold.

[Akash Singh]

You know, 20 weeks. It was on the 21.

[Andrew Schulz]

Number one. Okay, so. So. So give us Mamdani populism. And. And do you think that there is a through line with the debt that young people, middle class people especially, are feeling?

[Ezra Klein]

Yeah. So, like, let's search just like with the populism, Right?

[Andrew Schulz]

Yeah.

[Ezra Klein]

Mom. Donnie, like the point of almost every policy Mamdani has, there's this line I like from an old mentor of mine, Mark Schmidt, where he says, it's not what you say about the policies, it's what the policies say about you. And you have all these liberal politicians and Brad Lander, who I really liked and was probably my choice for mayor, he's got 75. He's got 70 policies, and they're all 15 or 40 pages. But he doesn't have one or two policies that define who he is. Right. But for Trump, Build the wall. Right. It's like a policy. It says everything about him. Like one, you know, tariffs. Right. It's not just a policy. It's also a sense that we're all getting ripped off. And we. And for Mamdani, like, he really understands not how to, like, other politicians communicate about policy. He communicates through policy. Right. Freeze the rent, free buses, the city run grocery store thing. Free, free daycare. They all say functionally the same thing, which is this society is unfair.

[Andrew Schulz]

Yeah.

[Ezra Klein]

You are getting screwed in it.

[Andrew Schulz]

Yeah.

[Ezra Klein]

And government should be here to make the things that people need available to them. Yeah. Not just like affordable to them. If you apply for this subsidy program and you get cleared and then you get just there, you should just be able to get on the fucking box. Us.

[Andrew Schulz]

Yeah.

[Ezra Klein]

Right. You should. You think you had a kid. Having a kid is a good thing to do. It's hard. There should be daycare. They figured this out in other countries. We should figure it out too. That's not impossible.

[Akash Singh]

How possible is it? Because at all, everything you're saying is.

[Ezra Klein]

Beautiful in how possible is it for mom Donnie to do free daycare just in New York City? The problem for his, he's got two problems, right. And I'm like, not on the, like the anti momdani side of this, but he's. He's taken a couple of risks. And the big risk is that he can't deliver what he promises. Everything he is talking about and most of the big ticket things he's talking about, not freezing the rent actually requires a lot of money. Free daycare is very expensive. You need the facilities for it, which they don't have. You need the people to actually be with the students or the kids. Not even students. You actually need a very, very high number of them. Because when you're dealing with kids that young, you need a lot. You need a lot. Right? It's not like one teacher looking over their class of like 30 fucking kids.

[Andrew Schulz]

That's what we went to school.

[Ezra Klein]

You're dealing with two year olds. It's like one person for three or four kids, tops. Tops.

[Akash Singh]

I was with Andrew's lovely daughter a few days ago. She was trying to kill herself every second.

[Andrew Schulz]

Yeah. It was four people for one kid.

[Ezra Klein]

Yeah. The correct numbers you need are two. Two people for one child. That's the actual ratio. Makes things manageable. He does not have control over taxes as mayor of New York City. Yeah. So tax increases would have to go through Albany, through Governor Kathy Hobby Hochul. She is running for her reelection on a no new taxes pledge.

[Andrew Schulz]

And she literally came out and she's like, I'm not gonna do it.

[Ezra Klein]

She's not gonna do it. It's bad politics for her. She doesn't just have to win a Democratic primary in New York City. Other parts of New York are not as blue as New York City is and not as rich as New York City is.

[Andrew Schulz]

I think that's something people don't understand about New York. You get out of New York City, it gets red quick.

[Ezra Klein]

It gets red quick. And I mean, a lot of places like this, like California, it's like outside of the big cities, it's very different. Right?

[Andrew Schulz]

Yeah.

[Ezra Klein]

So she's got very different politics fixing him.

[Andrew Schulz]

All right, guys, listen, I. I have a big issue with the UFC right now.

[Ezra Klein]

Talk about it.

[Andrew Schulz]

It is. It's my favorite sport to watch. I buy every single Pay per view. I mean, you can look at my. I bought every single pay per view this year. I watch it religiously. I can't stay up for it. I can't stay up for it. I buy every single one and I watch the prelims, and then I go into the main card and about one or two. Two fights. I have a kid. I'm up at 6 in the morning. But I do remember a time I could be off where the main card was done by, like, 11.

[Akash Singh]

No, no.

[Andrew Schulz]

I remember a time truly wrong right now where the main card was done by, like, 9:45. I remember I would watch the UFC and then I'd go out for a late dinner.

[Akash Singh]

You guys don't remember when those fights are in Dubai? Yeah, sure.

[Andrew Schulz]

Was that it? Interesting. So it was a time zone thing.

[Ezra Klein]

This whole time, or you didn't have.

[Akash Singh]

A kid and you just would leave.

[Andrew Schulz]

Your house at 12 and go hang out with. Think that is.

[Ezra Klein]

I think that might have something.

[Andrew Schulz]

I think the fact that I'm up with my child at 6am every single morning is affecting my sleep schedule.

[Ezra Klein]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schulz]

Damn.

[Ezra Klein]

Okay. I have been watching the fights on your pay per View, though, so I appreciate that you still get them. I've been logging in.

[Akash Singh]

So what did you think of the fight?

[Ezra Klein]

I thought it was wonderful.

[Andrew Schulz]

No, honestly, the card was great. Like, and that fight was just, like, sensational. I mean, those two guys are just so.

[Akash Singh]

God bless you.

[Andrew Schulz]

It's like, you love Dustin. He's just such an absolute legend. Yeah. Part of you wanted to see Dustin. You know, you want to see him get a victory on the way out, especially he's fighting at home. But if I will give credit to the UFC over anything, which is, like, they just reward entertaining fights. Like, an entertaining fight. The fans win, but the fighters win. If you put on entertaining fights, you keep getting fights at the ufc.

[Ezra Klein]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schulz]

If you win. Boring. You might not. And so I don't think, like, Dustin went out in, like, this, like, tragic way. I thought it was, like, a. It was brave and awesome, and it's like, hell of a career. And. And also Max, you know, like, Max just keeps on reinventing himself. Like, like crazy. This guy gets knocked out, brutal fashion. His last fight comes back and fights as if it never happened. Most people can't get over that. Like. And at 155. Yeah, Max is a terror. I mean, like, it makes you think, should he have been fighting? You know, like, he's 33, so it's harder to cut weight as you get older, but, like, he has the frame for it. Should he have been fighting like this for the last five years?

[Ezra Klein]

Yeah. Did you see his son talk to, like, afterwards, go, like, go to. To Dustin, just be like, yo. And like, you're the man.

[Andrew Schulz]

Yeah.

[Ezra Klein]

Because they had a moment from the fight before.

[Andrew Schulz]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ezra Klein]

And, like, it came full circle five years later.

[Andrew Schulz]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Ezra Klein]

And that kind of is, like, why you have.

[Andrew Schulz]

So it's so cool. Yeah. Fight sports in particular, you get invested in these guys, man, and it's just like, yeah, they're just awesome. They're so brave. And, you know, Max puts a performance on like that. And obviously, Max is, like, one of the biggest stars in ufc, so we want to fight, see him watch, you know, watch him fight no matter what. But, yeah, you're just like, okay, let's do it again with Ilya. One fight. Ilya is the champ at 155. Yeah. Who else do you want to see him fight besides Max?

[Ezra Klein]

Yeah.

[Akash Singh]

I think Ilya is the fight. Well, let me ask a question. When you see these guys lay their lives in the line, take these risks, does it inspire you to, like, try to stay up till 10:30 to watch?

[Andrew Schulz]

So I thought a lot about that. I thought about that, and there's something really interesting about watching in the morning with a cup of coffee. You get up around 6:30, right. You're feeding your baby a little bottle, and then you just have her watch Carnage, even though your wife says no screen time. So that's what. That's how I choose to watch the fight. And then for some reason in the morning, my wife. My. My baby's just running around like an absolute savage, slapping the shit out of everybody.

[Akash Singh]

She was slapping everybody.

[Ezra Klein]

On Sunday, my.

[Andrew Schulz]

My daughter got a left hook.

[Ezra Klein]

From hell.

[Andrew Schulz]

From hell, no.

[Ezra Klein]

From Max.

[Andrew Schulz]

She saw Max.

[Akash Singh]

She literally saw her Sunday.

[Andrew Schulz]

She.

[Akash Singh]

If you're holding her, just reaches back.

[Andrew Schulz]

Boom.

[Akash Singh]

Doesn't care.

[Andrew Schulz]

I saw when she slapped me, My daughter slapped the shit out of me. And then I started laughing. And then my wife goes, you cannot laugh. It rewards it. Give me her. And I hate handed Shiloh over to my wife. And my wife is looking at. And my wife goes, we do not slap, okay? We. We're gentle. And Shiloh goes, all right.

[Akash Singh]

Wow.

[Ezra Klein]

Slap the.

[Andrew Schulz]

Out of my wife. And my wife looked at me. She goes, don't you laugh. I go, I gotta walk away because that was incredible right there. That was absolutely incredible. So, yeah. So shout out to ufc. And, yeah, I just. I can't wait to see who Max. I mean, if they do that Ilia fight with Max again. Like, let's go. What do you guys think?

[Akash Singh]

I know, I think that you got to run that back. And like you said Max at 155. I don't know much, but it does look like that's he. Yeah, he needs to be at that.

[Ezra Klein]

Does he go up even more?

[Andrew Schulz]

I mean, the question is like, will he take the time to put on the weight? I think when he went up to fight Dustin at 155, he went. I think they fought for the interim belt at 155, I believe I'm not mistaken. And then he lost that. But it didn't look like he came up in weight. It looked like he just didn't cut.

[Ezra Klein]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schulz]

And like, if you go up to 155, you actually need to walk around at 1:70 and then cut down to 155. And you know, I think Max has all like the. The guys now that are helping him manage the weight and.

[Ezra Klein]

But could he walk around at 200?

[Andrew Schulz]

I mean, we met.

[Ezra Klein]

He's.

[Andrew Schulz]

Max is my height. He's massive. He's my height. Longer arms, like, he's. There's a world where you just, you know, stuff him with protein and he's just fighting like insane guy. Like, you're six' two. Yeah, I weigh 195. I'm lean, you know, I don't want.

[Ezra Klein]

To say, but you're cutting, you're cutting.

[Andrew Schulz]

Obviously, I'm in the bulk. Yeah, yeah, you bulk and you cut. Yeah, exactly.

[Ezra Klein]

It's a cycle.

[Andrew Schulz]

I should have never learned about bulking cuz every time I eat heavy, I'm just like, oh, I'm just bulking.

[Ezra Klein]

Be more muscle when it comes.

[Akash Singh]

I've been bulking since I was 4.

[Andrew Schulz]

So, yeah, no, I'm just. I'm just excited to see what Max does next. Man, I mean, that's going to be so cool.

[Akash Singh]

Yeah, absolutely. And if you want to bet on the next UFC fight, of course you're.

[Andrew Schulz]

Going to do a stake. Stakes are the leader in global betting in US social casinos. We're going to figure out what social casinos are eventually. Bet on top sports and political events and use the promo code flagrant for your welcome bonus. Now let's get back to the show.

[Ezra Klein]

How did de Blasio enact free pre K? There is. So he was really hard. Hard. And he was able to get the taxes to do it. He was able to get it for 3k. It had to phase in over a series of years. My kid went to 3K. I mean, everybody in New York City. I wasn't here under de Blasio. I just moved here two years ago. You all seem to hate him. He seems like he was a pretty good mayor to me.

[Andrew Schulz]

Like, turned off the podcast right now, huh? Yeah.

[Ezra Klein]

So I would like somebody to explain all the Blasio.

[Andrew Schulz]

You just can't eat French fries. Like, there's certain things you got to.

[Ezra Klein]

Be able to do.

[Andrew Schulz]

If you can't eat French fries, then, you know, you can't be.

[Ezra Klein]

So, anyway, so there's. I don't. I was not here and did not cover it. So I don't want to give you a good account of how he did 3K. There's a good New York magazine piece about it from Bryce Covert. I think it is from a couple months ago, but I don't want to try it by memory. I just like to point out that it is doable. Like, mayors can. Free daycare will be bigger and more expensive than 3k at a time when, like, the finances are going to be pretty tough. The other thing that I think it's totally obvious Mamdani will be dealing with if he wins the election is the Trump administration is going to look at New York City and be like Harvard. And they're going to try to break it.

[Andrew Schulz]

They're going to try to break it.

[Ezra Klein]

They're going to take all the money from him they can. They're going to use New York City as a site for ICE confrontations. Right. Like, it is going to be very, very, very tough. And New York City, I almost assure you, is going to be dealing with very reduced federal money coming in.

[Andrew Schulz]

And with reduced federal money, you have no chance of doing these programs that are going to require.

[Ezra Klein]

So he's got that set of problems. Um, doesn't mean it's impossible, you know, and doesn't mean something couldn't be done. And something like free buses are not that expensive. You could do free buses. Right. That's not that bad.

[Akash Singh]

So that's. Sorry.

[Ezra Klein]

So that's. Sorry.

[Akash Singh]

I was going to say, with Trump in 2016, too, he ran on all these things and people are like, oh, yeah, how did you guys not know? He lied? He ran on overturning Roe versus Wade. He got that done. If you get one of the big things done, your base will be, I think, satisfied and be like, oh, yeah, this guy got it done. If he gets free buses, if he can freeze the rent, I don't see him being viewed as a failure because he didn't do all the other Things.

[Ezra Klein]

I think how he'll be viewed will have to do with a lot of things that we can't even predict right now, depending on what happens. But. So freeze the rent, right? Here's the other one. Freezing the rent is I think, just really tricky. I've spent a lot of time talking to affordable housing developers and if you freeze the rent for a year, fine, freeze it for two years, fine. If you do a long extended rent for freeze, you will make the construction of new affordable housing fall sharply. Like, why is that? Because it just, I mean what you have basically done is you've taken. It's already not an incredibly great business to be in. Right. It's a complicated business. There's regulation. Right. Whatever you are, I mean, what is freezing rent? Right. You are just saying that over an extended period of time, you are going to cap the amount that the people who own these places can, can make. That's going to first come out in repairs. Right. And then it's second going to come out in new construction. If you just make any market less attractive to be in. Few people go into the market, right? That's just, that's just going to be like hydraulic. If you look at Mamdani's housing policy and Mamdani, who's like Red Abundance and talks about it on the show, which I appreciate, has done interviews with my co author Derek Thompson. He talks about new construction. His plans are around public construction, construction which New York City has not done a lot of in a while. You would have to figure out ways to do that much more cheaply than we've been doing it.

[Andrew Schulz]

Yeah.

[Ezra Klein]

So like, I'm not as familiar with affordable housing construction in New York as I am in some other places, but there's a great piece in the Washington Post recently about a D.C. affordable housing complex that was coming in at $1.2 million per unit. The same developer had built like another complex that was non affordable, like next door or very nearby. And it was coming in at, I forget, 300, $400,000 per unit. This put in all these rules and even if you listen to mom Donnie, he'll say, like, I believe we need a lot more housing. You know, so long as it accords with our environmental, our union, our affordability goals. But, and that's great. I want housing that does that. But what we need first is a lot of new housing. And the more things you layer onto it, the more expensive it becomes. And you don't have money. Right.

[Andrew Schulz]

And you're capping what the money could.

[Ezra Klein]

Be and I mean that in a way too. So my worry is about like. Yeah, so. Yeah. So my worry is that I feel okay with rent freezes. So as long as you do things to make construction boom, right? If your rent freeze is like a temporary palliative thing while you're building huge amounts of new construction, great.

[Andrew Schulz]

Not public. Only allow private as well.

[Ezra Klein]

You need both, right? The public. The amount of housing New York needs can like. New York does not have the. Like how many construction workers does like this.

[Andrew Schulz]

I want to, I want to put this in perspective. There's something that works with us here. Alex and her friends were in a. In a apart that the sewer line just broke and there was just shit all over the apartment. So they need to move immediately. And the amount of anxiety that she was going through trying to get apartment in New York City, I mean, like there was one that might have accepted their thing and they need to sign immediately on it. They need to get their guarantors. If they didn't do it in one day, there were five other applications that were going for it. This idea that, like, it's hard to get an apartment in New York is not hyperbolic. It is destitute. Like, it is hard to find a place to live, especially when you have a limited budget. So I get the idea that, you know, if you just let developers do whatever they want, they're going to develop $5 million apartments because that's where they're going to make the most money. Actually, I don't know the economics on affordable housing, but I imagine it's more when you're doing like 3,000 foot lofts. But if you find a way to get developers to put up affordable housing, not necessarily housing projects, but like units that people can't afford and you reward them while also doing some public projects and freezing, then you might have a scenario, but you have to let the developers develop as well. And it seems like he's not.

[Ezra Klein]

I want to give mom Donnie some credit here if it's not so much in his plans, but if you listen to his interviews and things he said, he talks about some things that would be really good, like getting rid of two stairwell minimums. Like, weirdly, we have a bunch of rules on what you have to put into buildings that make them much more expensive. Like a bunch of these buildings. In most countries you can just build them with one stairwell. We make it two. It adds more than you would think. Parking minimums, right? He's like an opponent of like parking minimums in places where we still have them. That's good. I think that he's going to be pretty good at saying we have like just like made it too hard. There's like too much red tape around construction. The place where I think he's going to struggle is where that comes into conflict with any other golden the left House. And the problem that liberals and leftists alike, democrats of all kinds of stripes have when they govern is that they don't choose between their priorities. They try to accomplish too much in every single project and then the projects become extremely expensive. One of the things that has been the least persuasive about the Andrew Cuomo campaign from this perspective, to me at least, is that he was governor when all this stuff was being built at the most eye popping cost imaginable. I can't agree. He did get LaGuardia done. It's beautiful. I mean the Second Avenue subway did in that phase of it, get done. The second Avenue subway was the most expensive subway per kilometer in world history. Right. Like, it's not like this is just a problem of the leftists. You have to choose and you have to like in some cases make people mad, but you have to make it affordable. One of the things I always want people to add when they're talking about this stuff, when you're talking about free, is like it should be free and plentiful. Right. Oftentimes people talk about making something rather free. Healthcare, buses, whatever. The thing that will happen correctly. Right. If you make this thing free that people need is more people are going to use it. And so the question is, how do you also make it plentiful? So you don't get rationing, you don't get weight lines, you don't get deterioration in service, you don't have like all kinds of bad things happen. And that tends to be a little trickier. Right. How do you do it? The left tends to be very willing to say we're going to tax rich people and move the money over here. Fine. That's great. I am supportive of taxing rich people and moving the money over. Not Andrew. You can't tax him.

[Andrew Schulz]

Can I get, you know what I mean? Like, can I get some sort of way I got guys on here telling to tax the rich, I should get some sort of tax cut for that.

[Ezra Klein]

Oh, that's a good point. Don't you think? Solidarity tax.

[Andrew Schulz]

Exactly. Like more rich people are going to get taxed because of me, therefore I don't have to pay the tax. I think that's nice.

[Ezra Klein]

Yeah. It's like when you get 15% off for like a referral fee.

[Andrew Schulz]

I'm the referral. You know, when you want Hollywood to come make a movie in your town, okay, you get them tax benefit. That's what I'm doing.

[Ezra Klein]

Also think this connects to the argument for taxes. I think people are not always just skeptical of higher taxes. I think they feel they don't get enough for the taxes they pay. And so you begin showing people that you're being ruthless about making sure that their money is well spent.

[Akash Singh]

I would gladly pay.

[Ezra Klein]

Then I think they are more willing to pay more.

[Andrew Schulz]

I don't want you to move on from the point you're about to make, which is how do you make them plentiful?

[Ezra Klein]

Oh yeah. So one of the arguments of abundance, right, which is the big argument of abundance is we need to sort of refocus politics in this case sort of like liberalism on the question of what do we need more of and how do we get it. And it's a big critique of how we get in our way on that. But another way of saying it is that liberals, leftists, Democrats, whatever, tend to operate on the subsidized side of the ledger, right? They see a problem and it's like, how can we give you some money to make this easier for you? And that's good. But then we don't deal with the fact that in some cases if we can't make them more of the thing, like say in the student loan situation, a bunch of that money is going to get pocketed or give a different version of it. If we put pumped a lot of money into rental vouchers in New York City, that would just lead to landlords getting richer not only, but there is not enough units. And so this is called, there's a term for this cost push socialism or something where you subsidize some something that you are otherwise constricting the supply of. And so what I'm saying is that the most important question is how you increase the supply of these things if you're going to make the buses free, how do we have more buses if you're going to make, if you're going to freeze rent. But how do we build a lot more housing? Public and market rate. The thing I've not seen Mamdani describe in detail is like how he's going to make public housing affordable to build and market rate much faster to build. So and these are the things that are going to have to that will decide, I think if he's actually to make a big dent in these problems and they're far. They're hard fucking problems, right? Gavin Newsom came into office in 2017. Who's that? California governor.

[Andrew Schulz]

Ah, yes.

[Ezra Klein]

And he promised three and a half million new houses. He knew there was a housing crisis and he knew he would be judged in part on whether or not he was able to solve it. California got nowhere near that. And now, huh. How many? I don't know the exact number.

[Akash Singh]

Probably negative.

[Ezra Klein]

I track if you are having more new housing built in California per month, because I'm a nerd like that. The housing starts in January of 2025 were lower than in January of 2015. So it just didn't really go up at all. And Newsom has just signed in some big bills, right. He's getting more aggressive, what he's doing, and I'm glad he is. But even when politicians want to make this stuff better, it's hard as hell, right? Like, the coalitions are hard. The unions are mad at you. Like homeowners are mad at you, Right? Like the rich people don't want to pay more taxes. NIMBYism is. It's hard.

[Andrew Schulz]

Not in my backyard. Everybody wants new housing for people. Everybody wants affordable housing for people who can't afford it, but they don't want it near them.

[Ezra Klein]

One of the hardest questions in politics is not how you fight your enemies, it's how you disappoint your friends.

[Andrew Schulz]

Yeah, I think that's a great point. It's like some of us are going to be disappointed. They're going to build some units near you. You're going to have to deal with construction, and you're going to have like a different economic level of people living there. And that's what it is. Like, this is New York City. You should be fucking used to it. If you moved here from somewhere else and you're like, I just want to live in this bougie area. Why are poor people living? You didn't move to New York City for right reason. The point of this is we all grew up in these neighborhoods.

[Ezra Klein]

How come New York City is changing? It's like the most dynamic city.

[Andrew Schulz]

This is the argument that drives me. This is how I know you just moved here. When you're like, oh, it's changing so much. It's like, I grew up in the East Village. Saint Marks was drug addicts, and then it became Japanese salons within my lifetime. So it's like this is what happens to the city. It changes constantly. And if you grew up here, you understand that. And the people that move here are like, Terrified of this change. It's like you don't get to decide what the culture is of the city is. So I think the people who are like, born and raised here are not like, scared of the idea of like a public housing project going up. If it's a project where you got gangs running drugs in it, yeah, it's an issue. If it's one of these housing products that we have all over the city where the. What's the. Like, all the artists grew up in.

[Akash Singh]

It over in town?

[Andrew Schulz]

Well, there's not side town's another one. But like, where, like, I think Timmy Chalamet lived there.

[Ezra Klein]

Yeah, I don't know the name of.

[Andrew Schulz]

It, but you know what I mean. It's in Hell's Kitchen. Kitchen, where it's just like, basically subsidized housing for, like, people who are in the arts. No issue at all. So, like, I think that New Yorkers also got to start embracing our identity a bit here. Like, this is what we're used to and we need more of it. Like you said, this abundance idea, which I think is so great about the book that you and Derek did, It's just like, you need to build, and if that means cutting the red tape, let's cut it. But like, if Zoron does win and he does make public housing project, but he's also doing. Letting the private developers develop, and you see these rent prices go down and more. More people can move to the city and actually achieve their dreams and have opportunity, which is, I think, what more people want in New York than anything. I don't think people want free shit. I think they want the ability to make money and achieve their dreams. And that starts at affordable living. You'll be a fucking hero and. But I think that he's going to need a little bit of wiggle or at least address the concern you have.

[Ezra Klein]

This is an old kind of socialism, old socialist.

[Andrew Schulz]

Scary word.

[Ezra Klein]

I know this is a scary word, but even so, you're talking like old.

[Andrew Schulz]

Socialist Charlie Kirk right now.

[Ezra Klein]

We should talk about that.

[Andrew Schulz]

They had a great comedy.

[Ezra Klein]

It was very materialistic, right? It was about abundance. We have a Karl Marx quote in the conclusion of the books. Like, it was the thing that you get sometimes so close. I know, right?

[Andrew Schulz]

And then you throw it all away.

[Ezra Klein]

I know when I went on Barry Weiss's show and made this argument, she was like, socialism. But the point I'm making about it is not that you gotta, like, believe in socializing means of production. It's that I think. Think that we lost the language of more. And there's a bunch of reasons for that. Right. Kind of like the left sort of merged in with an environmentalist left in kind of the 70s. It was very small, is beautiful and we're despoiling the environment. And these things were true. But it became kind of skeptical of materialism. But there's an older tradition here. Or if you don't want to do the socialist version, the New Deal liberalism tradition. Right. Building things. Often the government. Like you look at what the Works Progress Administration did. Yeah, right.

[Andrew Schulz]

Yeah.

[Ezra Klein]

You look at the Tennessee Valley Authority. It's not. There's a reason in the book people always like you just want market rate housing. The two housing stories I do over an extended period in the book are both affordable housing. Because the thing I'm trying to show to my friends on the left is that even the kind of housing you support and have no qualms with, you cannot build quickly or affordably anymore. Like you can't deliver even the thing you are most comfortable delivering. And like, I don't. The point is you should want to fix it. Like I want to fix that. I want the government to be able to build beautiful public housing affordably and quickly.

[Andrew Schulz]

Yeah.

[Ezra Klein]

And they do in other places. Singapore, like huge amounts of public housing.

[Andrew Schulz]

We talked about that. There's a little bit that's a tricky one because the government just owns all the housing. Like people can't own their own houses there. Like they basically do like a lease for 100 years or something.

[Ezra Klein]

Yeah. But I'm just saying that they have the capacity to build it. It's a state capacity question. Or I can do the high speed rail in California versus Right. Like other places can build this.

[Andrew Schulz]

I understand the point you're making and I guess alleviating some of that red tape is what will make this possible.

[Ezra Klein]

It's not just red tape. It's also. I mean people always. It's also building the capacity of the state itself. You have to. I mean we outsourced so much over the years.

[Andrew Schulz]

Yeah.

[Ezra Klein]

And it's also making. So the people who are under who are working for the state can actually do things and act. Nobody is more regulated than people who work for the government.

[Andrew Schulz]

Yeah.

[Ezra Klein]

Always think of deregulation as a thing you do to the market.

[Andrew Schulz]

Yeah.

[Ezra Klein]

But it's the government that often needs it.

[Andrew Schulz]

Why was nobody operates in more regulated then. We got to get to the bottom of that. All right, guys, let's take a break for a second. You need protein. Okay. And it's hard to eat. Chicken breasts every single meal. Trust me, it is boring. So you probably also need a little protein powder. And the most trustworthy pre or protein in the game is made by Transparent Labs. It's this thing right here. Their whey protein isolate is sourced from grass fed cattle raised humanely and without the use of growth hormones or homogeneous hormonal agents and contains absolutely no artificial sweeteners, food dyes or fillers. I can't tell you how important that is. A lot of you guys are getting these protein products, you don't even know where they're from. You don't even know if it's actual protein in there. You're getting some crazy country, you're ordering it online, you can't trust anything with it. This the exact opposite. Heavily scrutinized, the best in the business. Every batch of their isolate protein is tested by a third party lab for purity and potency. And you can find all their tests test results in the footer of their website so you know they're not bullshitting you. It's also certified by Informed Choice and Informed Protein to meet the highest standards for athletes and consumers. And once you try and love their protein which you will get their other supplements. Because every single Transparent lab supplement features science backed ingredients in clinically effective doses. So go to transparent labs.com use the code FLAGRANT, you're going to get 10% off any purchase in a three way protein form variety pack. So you can try their five best selling flavors of protein for free. That's transparent labs.com use the code flagrant supplement smarter and make the switch to Transparent labs. Now let's get back to the show.

[Akash Singh]

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[Andrew Schulz]

I think this brings us to, like, an interesting conversation that I saw, like, Charlie Kirk and Tucker Carlson having. And I think it was Joey that pointed this out where there's this kind of horseshoe theory happening, where the left and the right are coming to the same conclusions about what's happening in the world.

[Ezra Klein]

They're coming to the same rhetoric, not the same concept.

[Andrew Schulz]

Okay, fair enough. They're coming to the same rhetoric. And this maybe holding the same, like, institutions responsible.

[Ezra Klein]

No, play this clip. Can we play it for a second? Yeah, yeah.

[Andrew Schulz]

Mark, will you just text him right now?

[Ezra Klein]

You showed this to me, and I feel like I almost lost my mind because.

[Andrew Schulz]

And I'm not bringing this up as a criticism of them. I'm bringing it up as them understanding that there are concerns that people have that need to be met irregardless of what party you're in. And they seem to be echoing certain sentiments that I think that you would agree with, even though you guys might be diametrically opposed when it comes to your politics.

[Ezra Klein]

There is always. If you listen to the way people are critiquing what's gone wrong, it always seems like there should be room for agreement. Why you don't get to that agreement we should talk about. But. But just play it gets. This is like, enjoy things now and pay for. For it later. It is a. You know, what I don't like about conservatives, and I am one, is that.

[Andrew Schulz]

It would never occur to the.

[Ezra Klein]

Some of them that there are two sides to the story. It's like immediately, you know, they. They blame the people who are, you know, buying Coachella tickets on credit, which I get. You shouldn't buy Coachella tickets on credit.

[Andrew Schulz]

Or your pizza or your Whole Foods or.

[Ezra Klein]

I totally agree with that. That's stupid. But they never. It doesn't occur to them that there's another side. That the people loaning the money. Money Are taking advantage of the dumb people borrowing the money, that both are culpable. And by the way, I think the people with more Power and more wisdom. Probably more culpable act morally than the people who are. But in other words, like are we matter at the drug user or the drug dealer, typically the dealer. But conservatives look at all economic arrangements and they never blame the dealer. And I don't know what that is. Like how about we'll blame everybody? It's bad. I think the reason, and it's a tick within the conservative movement is that all of a sudden we're Marxists. If we do that. And I think that they're. No, I'm not saying I don't believe that. No, no. But you're absolutely right. I'm a racist if I don't like mass immigration. Well, I don't like mass immigration, but I'm not a racist.

[Andrew Schulz]

I don't like this and I'm not a Marxist.

[Ezra Klein]

Like it's just name calling to stop you from raising the question. It's thought terminating cliches is what it is. So good. Right. It's stop thinking it because we're going to terminate your thought by calling you a Marxist or whatever. And do I think this should be be illegal? I don't know. Probably. I need to learn more about it. All I'm saying is I am here as a messenger of the next generation. I'm telling you this is bad. This generation can't own anything. They owe so much more money than generations prior. This is the most indebted generation in history. And I, I, I double checked that Gen Z owes the most money in, in any history, any generation in history. So we wonder why then all of a sudden, hey, you want to go buy a home now at the age of 40, 38, your credit score is destroyed, your spending habits are terrible. You don't want to save and you don't think you should save. And you know what I hear from some of them is they say, well, why should I save? When what I saw around me is that you need to get into this economy and spend, spend, spend because the savers got wrecked in 2008. Tell me what you. So the thing that just drove me crazy about the middle of that because neither Tucker nor Charlie are stupid or uninformed. Yeah, it's like when they're like, well, why, why don't we take seriously that we are that you have predatory lending. There's an agency, it's called the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. It was started during the Dodd Frank Post financial regulations. It was Elizabeth Warren's idea. It was full of people basically doing that thing regulating the way credit cards are used and marketed trying to give people information about things. Right. Regulating scams. And the Trump administration came into office with, like, the support of Charlie Kirk and Tucker Carlson and they burnt the CFPB to the ground the way they did usaid. Right. People didn't hear as much about it, but we actually have people who've been worrying about this. And like, you can debate, you know how, like, there are hard trade offs here. When you're talking about putting Coachella tickets on credit, you're talking about credit cards. People aren't like going and taking out a HELOC loan to get a Coachella ticket. Right. They're putting it on their credit card. Do you really want the government regulating what people can put on their credit card? I think that's tricky even for me as a liberal. But we do have. It's not just that conservatives won't think it. They won't think it. The administration they support just destroyed the regulator that actually was trying to work on the thing they said.

[Andrew Schulz]

Very, very fair argument. We got our finger wagging out. We got our I told you so out. Now let's just address what's happening emotionally because I think they're reacting to what people. People are feeling. So now this is the opportunity to build the coalition. What do you.

[Ezra Klein]

You're gonna run someday.

[Andrew Schulz]

I don't want anything. I have no interest in person who.

[Ezra Klein]

Can bring us together.

[Andrew Schulz]

No, no, no, no, no. I don't. I just think that this is. You make a good point. I think it's a fair point. I think that they should. They should also.

[Ezra Klein]

I just want to say point scoring. The reason I say this is not because I don't want to find common ground. I love to find common ground. It's that I do think what is. There's so much rhetoric happening in politics at all times and the question of what is actually being done. Done.

[Andrew Schulz]

Yeah.

[Ezra Klein]

And like, do people know about it? Is it. I think that's probably. It often diverges.

[Andrew Schulz]

I think that's probably frustrating for you who.

[Ezra Klein]

It's very frustrating for me. Yeah.

[Andrew Schulz]

Because I think that, like, you. And it's one of the reasons why I love talking to you is because you really understand, like, the instruments of politics.

[Akash Singh]

He actually knows what's happening.

[Andrew Schulz]

Yeah. You understand the policy and you understand, like, how these things do affect people. So I'm sure you hear them talking.

[Ezra Klein]

Yes. So to the common ground side, we.

[Andrew Schulz]

What are they speaking to?

[Ezra Klein]

Rather maybe there is a crisis of indebtedness and unaffordability.

[Andrew Schulz]

There we go.

[Ezra Klein]

And those two Things are very related.

[Andrew Schulz]

Okay.

[Ezra Klein]

How to solve it. Right. That's again, like a. Like the whole introduction of abundance is about the crisis of affordability, which, by the way, is a term coined by my wife who works for the Atlantic back in 2021.

[Andrew Schulz]

Get yourself some credit.

[Ezra Klein]

Yeah, exactly. I'm not going to take. I'm not going to create credit for.

[Andrew Schulz]

Leave it with the kids so you can do a podcast with the boys.

[Ezra Klein]

Get yourself some credit. So you have this economy where the things people need to fill a house, furniture and televisions, have gotten cheaper and the things upon which they build a life have gotten much more expensive.

[Andrew Schulz]

Beautifully said. Give us an example.

[Ezra Klein]

Health care, elder care, child care, higher education, housing. You could name a couple others. And energy is more complicated than that. But, but, but those are big ones, and the biggest one is housing. It's why I focus a lot on housing. That is the biggest item in most people's budgets, but health care is the most desperate item in people's budgets. And when things get bad, health care really bites. Right. Education, like, these are things that if you don't have it for yourself or your children or someone you love, you will mortgage everything. Yeah. You will go into any amount of debt. Right. And part of what's going on there is we don't have enough of the things. Right. Housing is in the places where people most want to live. We don't have enough houses. And that has meant a incredibly large wealth transfer to people who own homes and the people whom those homes will be passed on to. Right. There's a. Like, one of the problems is not just that you have the. You have this growing problem of also dynastic wealth. I've had more libertarian economists tell me, like, I don't understand why you're so upset about dynastic wealth.

[Andrew Schulz]

Can you explain that?

[Ezra Klein]

Wealth just going down, through. Through families. Right. I've had libertarian economists say to me, I don't understand why you're so upset about the, the homeowning. Like, like when they're. When looking at charts about Gen Z home ownership or millennial homeownership versus boomers, it's like that problem is going to solve itself. The boomers are going to die and.

[Andrew Schulz]

Then pass all of their shit to the next.

[Ezra Klein]

That's not like, how you build a fair society. Right. That it goes down the cord of dynastic wealth. So the Republican Party, which I think, and this is, I think good, it increasingly represents people who are working class and increasingly represents people who, you know, don't have college Educations. And particularly in 2024, it won a bunch of young voters. All of a sudden there's pressure on it and in it to answer those questions, to do something about this. My frustration is often I feel like they weaponize very real concerns and turn them on weaker people like J.D. vance will say really smart things about the housing crisis and then blame it on illegal immigration, which is just not what it is. Yeah, but it's an easy scapegoat.

[Andrew Schulz]

And that's not to say that there aren't problems with immigration. Absolutely. But it does become this easy scapegoat that you can feed to the base. And the base it feels satisfied. They think things are going to change, but it might not actually accurately address the problem.

[Akash Singh]

It exploits the issues rather than sports.

[Ezra Klein]

The issue and uses it. I mean, this is a problem of when you have scale scarcity. That's like a really good breeding ground for resentful politics. Right. And it's one reason I think liberals should be very attentive to alleviating scarcity where we can. But the thing that they are getting at there, which is people are going into a lot of debt in order to not just afford the very big things, but increasingly for the small things. Like that's also true. And there's a question of how tightly we want to regulate financial products. But that's why I bring up things like Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, because. Because the Republican Party has fought tooth and nail against the kinds of regulations that would keep certain kinds of debt and certain kinds of financial instruments from being something that are just like too easy to get. Because we worry about people making bad decisions around them and this stuff gets really complicated. No, I think that makes a trade off on it.

[Andrew Schulz]

But you can see these two guys going like, I don't know if I think one of them said, I, I don't know if that should be illegal. I don't know exactly what was said, but it seemed like they were in favor of restriction. And here's a great opportunity to be like, okay, maybe you didn't realize that getting rid of that bureau was the restrictive force, but now you've come to the conclusion that there should be some sort of guardrails. So what are these guardrails? And how can we bipartisan come together and make those guardrails? And this is where I get concerned because I think there's a lot of times the liberals go, you fucked this whole thing up. And it's like, okay, you fucked up it up. How long are we just going to sit here and go, you fucked it up.

[Ezra Klein]

Well, let me, let me like your.

[Andrew Schulz]

Doctor smoke cigarettes for 40 years and it's like you have lung cancer, but you're going, doc, I know I fucked up. How do I get rid of the lung cancer?

[Ezra Klein]

Let me, let me steel, man, the liberal position for you a little bit to make my. I'm gonna call it cynicism because I would work with anybody on this stuff. Right. There is an abundance, or it's called the Build America Caucus in the House and it's Republicans and Democrats. Right, right. And it's a thing I really try to do on my show is like have Republicans on, on. But the cynicism comes from watching people make good, believable, empathetic arguments in public and then repeatedly do the thing that is the opposite in private. The reason, again, this goes to different frameworks of the world, I guess, a little bit. But the reason somebody like me is RIP shit about the big beautiful bill that just passed. Is it. Trump and his people have been making these arguments about populism for people of lot A a long time now. And they have been promising to make things better for people and they've been promising not to cut Medicaid. And then they get into power and whatever they are saying publicly, they do the opposite. Trump, at his first address in the second term for the joint session of Congress, he said he would balance the budget. He just added 3 1/2 ish trillions of debt. He's promised his people he was not cutting Medicaid. He cut Medicaid. And so the thing that is upsetting, if we could all work together on this, that would be great. I would like raise my hand. I could not be more excited for it. The thing that is frustrating is when it feels like what is getting carried out over time is a deception.

[Andrew Schulz]

But that's the politicians. What I'm saying is the people are up for grabs, so to say.

[Ezra Klein]

Right, Yes, I agree with that.

[Andrew Schulz]

The people are up for grabs and we're talking to two people right there that are people and they're representative of people in terms of their audience and the ones that they're speaking to. So they can't exactly rebuke their audience. Right. They're probably going to be more willing to understand the feelings and sentiments of their audience because they're not locked to listen legislation. So I'm not saying that you're going to change their minds, but there is this opportunity where they're speaking to their people, their people are agreeing about these concerns and then we have the opportunity to be like, hey, you guys asked for this, or to go, hey, you're telling your audience that this is a problem. I also agree it's a problem. Let's come together. It's. It's Epstein in that, hey, we all agree this is a problem. We can work together to make some change. Here are our ideas. And if they can't beat your ideas, they got to join them.

[Ezra Klein]

That's not how that works.

[Andrew Schulz]

Maybe I'm being a little bit too idealistic.

[Akash Singh]

I also think you're being a bit idealistic, and that's what will often happen with these issues that are important but not as important to voters. Yeah, they're still going to get divided on the biggest issues that's fair. Which are pro choice, pro life, you're whatever else. And then that Republicans, Democrats, whoever, corrupt politicians can just cloud everything with that. And then they can still sneak in there.

[Ezra Klein]

Let's do it.

[Andrew Schulz]

Can I say one thing really quickly?

[Ezra Klein]

You if.

[Andrew Schulz]

Is it like. I think that you're 100% right about that, and I think that's why politics becomes so difficult, is you throw some other things out there that can distract. But this is the same criticism I have of like, you know, Hakeem Jeffries or like, or Schumer or anybody who is running as a Democrat for mayor. It's just like you can call Zoron a communist or anti Semite, you can throw out all these pejoratives, or you can address the problems in what you feel is a better way. And I feel like there's so much name calling instead of recognizing, hey, we agree on the problems. Here's a better solution. If you don't offer a better reform, as you said, then you got a fucking chance. So it's like we agree both sides feel this way. If you got. Not you or whoever else in your coalition have the better ideas, maybe you won't pull all of them over, but you recognize bipartisan support for something.

[Ezra Klein]

Yeah, look, I'm all for that. And I hold to two sides of this at once. Like one, I'm not a politician. Right. I'm an. So I want people to know what's really going on. Right. I think probably a lot of people watching flagrant, don't know, 100%. The consumer financial Protection Bureau was destroyed. You're talking to demonstration. Right.

[Andrew Schulz]

Talking to four of them right now.

[Ezra Klein]

So I want people to know what happened. But I just got a rush card. The politics.

[Andrew Schulz]

I got a good rate, 25%. That's all.

[Ezra Klein]

God, that's a tova One of like, the absolute, like real mainstays of politics is people don't want it to feel like this and they don't want it to work like this.

[Andrew Schulz]

They don't want it to feel like.

[Ezra Klein]

They don't want it. The thing that you are like, pointing out here, hitting, hitting like, you know, all of politics for. Right. People want to see their politicians work together. They want to see them. They believe, like I've done. Again, my first book is about why this doesn't happen. It is the most powerful politics to promise that it will happen. I just see it all the time. They want to see politicians working together on things. I think that we all have a little bit of a divided soul on a lot of this. We want to see people working together so long as we think that where they're going to end up is where we want them to be.

[Andrew Schulz]

Exactly. And then when it starts to go, satisfy me.

[Ezra Klein]

But I think there is some chance Republican Party is in a kind of like a period of transition between its old form and its kind of next form. Right. That it's going to have to become more populist in an actual way, not like a way because of who's voting for it. I'm not 100% sure if that's true, but I think it's plausible. Again, though, it would be great to see people work on some of these things. So, for instance, there is bipartisan agreement that we should build more houses. And the government could do a lot about that. The federal government could do a lot about. Lot about that. And they're not.

[Andrew Schulz]

Well, they're not until there's a huge calamity. I think you even said it was in abundance. Was it Shapiro rebuilding the bridge or something?

[Ezra Klein]

Oh, yeah. So that's a great story. I mean, that's, I think, a different kind of story. Josh Shapiro, the governor of Pennsylvania. There's this i95 bridge that collapses after a tanker overturns and catches fire. And he's able to get it rebuilt in 12 days, but he does it with an emergency declaration that wipes out.

[Andrew Schulz]

All the bureaucracy that would stop it.

[Ezra Klein]

And that's what I'm sort saying about the way that liberals don't. Democrats. The left doesn't often choose between its different goals. And there he chose. He used union labor. Right. The unions rebuilt that bridge. But the procurement regulations, the environmental regulations, the contracting regulations. I talked to the Secretary of Transportation in Pennsylvania. I was like, how long would this have normally taken you? This is great. And he was like, Two to four years to just get through the bid and contracting process.

[Andrew Schulz]

So not even making it. So he didn't. 12 days. But to go through the red tape, it would have taken two to four years. And I thought this was like a perfect example of abundance, showing the limitations of that bureaucracy. Now, I get that there's important bureaucracy when it comes to building. Like, I renovate apartment in New York City, I flooded my downstairs neighbor. And that's with all the bureaucracy. If there was none, we'd be living in a fishbowl. I know for a fact. So I understand, especially in a city like this, like, you need some guardrails, because there's some people that are not going to carry about their neighbors.

[Ezra Klein]

Like in Texas, the lack of regulations. They built that camp on flood sites. And, you know, you can have something like that.

[Andrew Schulz]

That is the cause.

[Ezra Klein]

Yeah. Let me go also to the thing you're saying earlier in a different way. So there's a question of can the parties work together on things? And, and weirdly, like, this is my whole first book, which is really motivated. I'm a policy reporter, like, going back. Right. I covered the Affordable Care act and the financial regulations, all this shit. I would always notice at the beginning, things would feel like bipartisan. Like, I would go to these meetings and think tanks and be the left and the right experts, and it would be talking about how they could build something they both like better. And by the end, it'd be viciously, like relentlessly partisan. And it's all about kind of untangling the system behind that. But, but the, the very core reason is that when you've got two very polarized parties that compete with each other for elections, in the end, they do not want the other one to succeed.

[Andrew Schulz]

To get a win. Yeah. Because getting.

[Ezra Klein]

So there's something into that, but I think there's some other. There's. There's another dimension. Mention of this, which is worth it, which is it is really important to signal that you understand why people are mad at you and why they're disappointed in you. Right. That's another way of kind of building that ground. So one thing that Donald Trump did really well when he ran for president, 2016, he's kept doing is he ran then as a critic of the Republican Party as it existed. And you can argue about how much he delivered on that, but part of that was on things on the right, like immigration, but the Republican Party was trying to cut Medicare and Social Security. And he's like, we're not doing that anymore. Right. He Moderated on that. And he's done that, you know, and on the wars. Right. On the Iraq war. Right. He, like, ran against the Bush administration's foreign policy legacy.

[Andrew Schulz]

Yeah.

[Ezra Klein]

One thing Trump said to people was, I know why you don't like us. And I also don't like us for that reason.

[Andrew Schulz]

And it's so validating.

[Ezra Klein]

And it's so validating. And one of the arguments of abundance when the political arguments of it. And I believe this substantively, I'm not just, like, doing this political case, but to be trusted and to win over people they've alienated. Democrats have to make clear they understand why people think government is inefficient and sucks.

[Andrew Schulz]

You ever go to a restaurant and you ask the waiter if the meatloaf is good, and they go, the meatloaf sucks. Whatever else they recommend, I trust.

[Ezra Klein]

Yep, totally.

[Andrew Schulz]

You've won my trust. You were honest about your own institution. And now I'm like, oh, you're on my side. You're not on the side of the restaurant and making the most money. If I go to a restaurant, I ask the waiter, what's the best thing on the menu or what's the thing I have to try? And they choose the most expensive thing. I'm like, fuck you.

[Ezra Klein]

You just want the biggest tip or everything. It's all good. Everything.

[Andrew Schulz]

So I think you're making a great point. It's like, that's how you build the trust of the people. You acknowledge the issues that you have.

[Ezra Klein]

Obama did this, right? Obama. Oh, sorry. But then one thing I just don't understand is why do people continue to trust Trump?

[Andrew Schulz]

Like, we saw his first term.

[Ezra Klein]

Like, he didn't keep a lot of the promises. He didn't drain the swab. He became the swamp.

[Andrew Schulz]

Then build the wall.

[Ezra Klein]

Like, why do we keep.

[Andrew Schulz]

Why does nothing sticking hope. He said, hey, I'm not cutting Medicaid.

[Ezra Klein]

Cut and cut Medicaid. I'm going to end wars on day one. Wars.

[Akash Singh]

I think Ezra touched on this earlier and I.

[Andrew Schulz]

That's a good point, Al. Yeah, go, go.

[Akash Singh]

I didn't necessarily. I didn't like a lot of whatever, but I didn't think what I thought I could be possible is what Ezra touched on, which is the government gotten in his way. He was able to get Roe versus Wade done because the government that was in power there, those parties supported it. All the other stuff he wanted to do, the government got in his way. This time the government is, oh, now I think people are turning now.

[Andrew Schulz]

I think that's why People are really upset because there isn't this big boogeyman that he could point at and says, they're not letting me do the things that I promised you. Now it's. It's all on him because he has the government now. You got it backing him. And I think that's why people are so frustrated. I mean, that's why I'm frustrated.

[Ezra Klein]

Yeah. But then you'll have a Charlie Kirk and whatever dude's name was Tucker and Tucker, and they're like, oh, we still support Trump, but, like, their power is coming from their closeness. I also don't know Charlie Kirk is. Yeah. So it's disingenuous. I think Tucker has also turned on Trump a little lately over, like, the Epstein stuff.

[Andrew Schulz]

I don't know all of his exact.

[Ezra Klein]

Politics, but he still says, I support Trump. I don't know if that's true.

[Akash Singh]

I think you're talking about entertainers.

[Ezra Klein]

There's a dynamic where it's like. And this is like how royal courts work, you know, back in the day where you could always say the king was getting bad advice. You could never say the king was wrong. And I see that in a lot of how people in MAGA will criticize. Like, it's why they were so, like, everybody wanted to blame the Epstein files on Pam Bondi. Right. You're allowed to say Pam Bondi's wrong and Trump is getting bad advice.

[Akash Singh]

Ash Mattel.

[Ezra Klein]

But you can't. Cash Patel, but you can't say daddy's wrong.

[Andrew Schulz]

But now they're saying daddy's wrong.

[Ezra Klein]

So that's where things might get a little bit different. But Charlie Kirk, right? Like, I mean, he's very woven into conservative politics. So he's got, you know, like, he's trying to accomplish things in the world, and if he becomes alienated from the administration, he loses like, the source of where. Where that power is. I also think, look, like Trump has always been complicated in this way. Some people trust him and maintain trust in him, and a lot of people don't trust him. He lost reelection the first time, and he won a pretty narrow election after there was a lot of inflation in 2024. It was like two points go the other way in the battlegrounds, and he loses. And it's hard to. People's connections with politicians are not an itemized list of policy promises kept and failed. They're all also a kind of guttural sense of, like, is this person who they told me they were? Trump's like, I think greatest, like, asset as a politician is he's not always telling you the truth, but somehow you always feel he's being honest. Right.

[Akash Singh]

That's fucking dog, having met him. Yeah.

[Ezra Klein]

Like he's. He says things that are wrong all the time. Like if you want to fact check Trump and we in the media do all the time, you can. But the feeling that he is telling you the thing that just popped into his mind at that second, which is not a feeling you have with most.

[Andrew Schulz]

Politicians, it's not focus group like most.

[Ezra Klein]

Politics, politicians, that creates a kind of trust.

[Akash Singh]

Trust.

[Andrew Schulz]

Yeah.

[Ezra Klein]

And I mean, even that comma where he goes, I'm mostly honest.

[Andrew Schulz]

Yeah. He's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm.

[Ezra Klein]

What? What was he. I'm a mostly honest person.

[Akash Singh]

That's what he said.

[Andrew Schulz]

Was it mostly. No, no. Was it mostly. I'm basically an honest person or something like that. And I just faces. Yeah, yeah.

[Ezra Klein]

And that is such an authentic. An authentic thing that that's the most.

[Akash Singh]

Honest thing you can say.

[Andrew Schulz]

It is weirdly, the MO. Because, like, nobody is 100% honest. So it might be the most honest thing he's ever said, you know, but.

[Akash Singh]

He'S implicitly saying, I think he's exaggerating on how honest he is.

[Ezra Klein]

Fair enough.

[Akash Singh]

But.

[Ezra Klein]

But then we, when we call him out for a question, then he's like, oh, well, I do this thing called the weave. Like he created that talking to us because we called him out, that he was avoiding the question.

[Andrew Schulz]

But there is that. That is a great point about building the trust because I definitely. You definitely feel that you're like, yeah, he is going to go out there, he is going to stop these wars, he is going to reduce, but he is going to do these things. And now that he doesn't have the boogeyman and he's not doing these things, he's starting to feel part of the institution.

[Ezra Klein]

Yeah. So he's going to lose trust. The question is, can Democrats rebuild themselves into something that can pick it up? So right now they are incredibly unpopular. The Democratic Party, it's like its reputation is like out in a dire. And internally divided. Internally divided. It's not like in the polling right now, it's not looking like parties did when they had huge midterm wins. Right. In the past. It's a little. I got some poll yesterday that the Democratic Party is a little bit less popular than the Republican Party. Some of that is Democrats frustrated by their own party's inability to stop all this. And so, like, they'll vote with Democrats or just mad, but some of it is that Democrats kind of lost the plot a bit. Like, what do they stand for? Who are they? How do they win people back? And that requires you to do things and say things that surprise people, that make you think you. I always say this about, like, the. The 2024 election, that they had this theory of winning independence. Right. And so they brought on people like Liz Cheney to come on and say, no, he's really, really bad. But the key thing about an independent voter, from the perspective of any party, isn't that they don't like the other party. It's that they don't like you.

[Andrew Schulz]

Yeah. So you have to reform you.

[Ezra Klein]

You have to reform you.

[Andrew Schulz]

And that's. I mean, I know we've been harping on it, but I can't. This is like a golden opportunity for Democrats to offer a better solution. You can't just keep calling them bad. You can't just keep calling them a liar. That doesn't win people over. If you offer better ideas, people will come to you because they are desperate. So the Democrats need their version of populism, and I think that's what you're seeing with Zoron.

[Akash Singh]

So this is my question for you that I wanted to ask. You said what the Republicans need to do is kind of be the populace that they always claim to be. What do the Democrats. What do the New Democrats need to do? Say, look like, like, etc.

[Ezra Klein]

Can I hold us on that question and use the restroom? Yes.

[Andrew Schulz]

Hell, yeah.

[Akash Singh]

Yes. Yeah.

[Andrew Schulz]

Guys, very cool announcement. This weekend we're doing the inaugural. This is the first one. Hopefully we do this every single year. Maybe we do it around the world, you know, get on tour and be able to do it. But basically the Hampton Paddle Classic. So we're going to do a paddle tournament at the Hampton Racket Club out there in East Hampton. And. And all the proceeds go to this amazing fertility charity called BabyQuest. And it's not one of these charities where like 90% goes to advertising, 10% go. This, like, all the money goes directly to helping people make babies. Yeah. It's really cool. Very excited about it. And. Yeah. Yeah. So a lot of cool sponsors got on board for it. I just want to shout out a few of them. Paul Street, Longevity Health. Love Every Therabody Huckberry Nanit Coterie. Best diapers in the business. Hexclad Longevity Health. So. And at Hampton Racket for putting it on. It's going to be at Hampton Racket, too. Great.

[Akash Singh]

Greatest passions.

[Andrew Schulz]

Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Ezra Klein]

This is awesome.

[Akash Singh]

I'm really Proud of you.

[Andrew Schulz]

Paddle and events.

[Akash Singh]

Yeah, you should get, you should get Dave Portnoy to support.

[Andrew Schulz]

The day. I should talk about the day thing anyway, real quick. We'll talk about the day a second. But yeah, there it's, it's a really awesome event. And if you, if you guys want to donate at all, I'll put, like, a link even if you're not able to be there. We're really cool. We got all the 12 teams already booked, but if you want to come watch, you can definitely come watch. I don't know why you would want to watch intermediate level paddle, but if you do want to watch out there, kids are free. And then there's a $50 donation to the charity for the adults. So just come out. There's going to be food, it's going to be drinks, going to be dj. It's going to be a great time. But. But yeah, we'll get Dave out there.

[Ezra Klein]

That's awesome.

[Andrew Schulz]

Yeah, I am a. The Dave thing is so funny because, like, it's, it's just this, like, hilarious miscommunication communication that's kind of my bad. Okay, so, like, David moment.

[Ezra Klein]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schulz]

Yeah. It's like, okay, so here it is. Just went crazy on, on, on Twitter. He posted about, like, all these, like, media platforms are reaching out to me for comments, and I'm like, I, I, I can't even tweet what happened because it doesn't even fit in a tweet. But, like, here's, here's the basic story. So Dave sees a thing that I was saying about Mumdani, where I was like, you know, Mamdani is New York first. Whether you agree with his, like, he's trying to address the concerns from New Yorkers, right? And this was, like, passed around. And I think a lot of, like, conservative circles, there's a lot of headlines about, like, the Socialist party in America is actually America first, not, you know, maga, Right? So he text me. He's like. Because he doesn't really like Mamdani's policies, and he just thinks the ideology isn't good. He doesn't think he's, like, favorable to America. I think that's like a fair version of what he said. And he just. And basically hits me up and he's like, listen, I saw this thing like, well, what are you talking about? He's more America First. Like, I don't think this guy likes America. And I'm. And I'm just like, no, I think he's trying to address the concerns I sent him A clip. And then we have, like, a really great, like, nuanced conversation about, you know, what's happening in America right now and, like, what Mangani is maybe serving. Agree, disagree on things, but great combo. And I was like, okay, this is awesome. Like, you know, he hit me up directly, and he's like, listen, I didn't want to say anything because I like.

[Akash Singh]

You, but this is all we ask for.

[Andrew Schulz]

This is. This is, like, the ideal scenario when you have somebody that's like, a friend or colleague, and then you guys disagree, you don't do it. But publicly, whatever. I go on Twitter a few hours later, and I see this tweet, and it's this. I don't know if you can bring it up, but it's like, this thing from Jamie Dimon. Maybe we can zoom in.

[Ezra Klein]

Oh, he's coming for your head.

[Andrew Schulz]

So Jamie Dimon says this thing where he's like, I have a lot of friends who are Democrats, and they're idiots. Jamie said Thursday at a foreign ministry event in Dublin. I always say they have big hearts and little brains. They do not understand the real world, how the real world works. Almost every single policy rolled out, failed. And then if we go up. So then I see that Dave quotes, tweets this and says, I think he's taking. I think he's talking specifically about Andrew Schultz saying, mamdani is America first. So I see this, and I'm like, we just had this fucking great conversation. Why the fuck do you throw me under the bus? Like, you said, like, you weren't gonna say anything because we talked about it. Now you're riled up, you fuck. So I'm fucking annoyed.

[Ezra Klein]

That was war.

[Andrew Schulz]

Now I'm upset. Like, we had this great combo, right? Unbeknownst to me, he tweets this before we talk.

[Akash Singh]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schulz]

Yeah, but I didn't know.

[Akash Singh]

You thought he talked ran to Twitter.

[Andrew Schulz]

Yeah, so. So I'm, like, upset, right? But I don't say anything about it. Like, I think I tweet something underneath it about, like, the policies, right? And then Sagar is interviewing us for breaking points, and he asks about Dave's, I think, criticism of Mamdani. And so I'm, like, annoyed. So I'm like, all right, all right. You're gonna throw me under the bus? I'm gonna throw you under the bus. I'm like, yeah, he's just upset about the Israel thing. And I'm, like, so reductive. And there was really no conversation about that between me and Dave, but I'm fucking Annoyed with him. So I'm, like, dismissive of, like, his actual concerns about policy. So I see that. And then Dave. Dave sees that response, and I guess that gets a big New York post. Writes about or whatever.

[Akash Singh]

And he's like, yo, I thought we.

[Andrew Schulz]

Talked about this privately. Exactly. So he's like, yo, we had a great talk privately. It was nuanced and thoughtful. We, like, agreed on a bunch of things. So then he screenshots our conversation and post it, which I don't agree with, that you should never screenshot. Private conversation.

[Akash Singh]

I can see myself doing some shit like that.

[Ezra Klein]

Don't ever do that.

[Andrew Schulz]

You should never do it. You should never do it.

[Akash Singh]

I can see me doing it.

[Ezra Klein]

Stop.

[Andrew Schulz]

Don't do it. But that being said, I do understand where he's coming from. Where? He's like, yo, you're representing this convo. We had completely different. But he doesn't know I'm angry because I thought. He thought me. Threw me under the bus. And he would. He would never think that because he tweeted it before.

[Akash Singh]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schulz]

So I text him. I'm like, yo, what the fuck are you texting a private combo? She's like, I never said any of that. You said. I'm like, yeah, but you said the Jamie Dimon. He goes, what are you talking about? And I go, you. We had this great combo. You posted the Jamie Diamond. He goes, I posted that before. Great combo. So I'm like, well, that's my bad.

[Ezra Klein]

So.

[Andrew Schulz]

So that's my bad. I probably should have said that. My bad. I'm sorry.

[Ezra Klein]

Oh, man.

[Andrew Schulz]

He goes, okay. It's all right. And I go, listen, you. You just, you know, text me right now that you love the Yankees and the Red Sox sucks. I'll post that and we'll call it even. And he's like, yeah, there's no chance. Anyway, so that's. That's the Dave Portnoy.

[Ezra Klein]

What's the lesson?

[Andrew Schulz]

It's getting so cold in here. Hell is freezing over.

[Ezra Klein]

Schultz just admitted to being wrong.

[Andrew Schulz]

Finally. I know.

[Ezra Klein]

It's a new me.

[Andrew Schulz]

It's a new me. So I'm like. I'm seeing this, like, unfold on Twitter. And I'm like, I don't even know how to consolidate that story into a tweet. So maybe this will make it there, maybe it won't. But.

[Ezra Klein]

And just read the dates on tweets and, you know. Yeah, you go through the dates. You're like, oh, okay.

[Andrew Schulz]

Yeah, I looked at it. I remember looking at. And trying to do the time Thing. I don't know. It was my bad. That was my bad.

[Akash Singh]

I don't think you did that, man. I think you made up a memory.

[Andrew Schulz]

Man. I do that.

[Ezra Klein]

I see a headline, I'm like, yo, this is crazy. From 2017.

[Andrew Schulz]

So come to the Hampton Paddle Classic. If not, Dave, you're invited. And if not, if you want to support the cause, it's an amazing cause and really, like, helps people that are. They're really trying to conceive and have had difficulty, like myself. And it is incredibly expensive to do, and not everybody has a privilege to pay for it. So we're going to try to help some people have some babies, and that'd be pretty awesome. So that's going to be this Saturday at the Hampton Racket Club in. In the Hamptons, in East Hampton. So thank you guys very much. Let's get back to this combo.

[Ezra Klein]

You had a good question?

[Akash Singh]

Yes. What does the new Democratic Party sound like? Look like? Say believe, Stand up.

[Ezra Klein]

So there are going to be a couple dimensions, and I wouldn't tell you that I know them all or they're all going to be one thing. They're all predictable. But one is, what kind of party do you need to be in opposition? And I think that the key thing the Democratic Party is going to have to be in opposition is it's going to have to open up the big seam of corruption in the Trump administration. The Epstein files are fundamentally a kind of story about some kind of corruption, some kinds of power networks, the giving rich people tax cuts while cutting Medicaid and SNAP is a different kind of corruption.

[Akash Singh]

Correct.

[Ezra Klein]

The crypto stuff is the most insane fucking corruption I have ever seen in my life. The taking jets from the Qataris. Right. $400 million jets. Like, there is so much corruption. And that's not ideal. Like, that's un. Under the terms of MAGA a bit. Right. But it's also just like, Americans kind of get that politicians are corrupt. I saw somebody actually doing it. We were sort of talking about this earlier, but I think we found this, like, clip of John Ossif where, like, I saw this and I was like, that's it. Like, that's what they're going to have to do.

[Akash Singh]

All right, I'm excited.

[Andrew Schulz]

Now.

[Ezra Klein]

Ossif is a. Ossif is a Democratic senator from Georgia running for reelection this year. Big race. Okay, But. But just like, really, really has gotten strong as a communicator.

[Andrew Schulz]

See, I get why people voted for.

[Ezra Klein]

Him, because even before he came on.

[Andrew Schulz]

The scene, America had the most Corrupt.

[Ezra Klein]

Political system in the Western world.

[Andrew Schulz]

It's been running on corporate money, secret money, billionaire money, both sides. And it's worse than ever now. Citizens United was the worst court decision.

[Ezra Klein]

In modern American history. Facts. And when members of Congress aren't begging.

[Andrew Schulz]

For money from lobbyists, they're trying to dodge getting carpet bombed by these super PACs. Senators get threatened every day with millions and millions of dollars of attack ads.

[Ezra Klein]

Over the votes that we take. And see, this is why nothing works for ordinary people.

[Andrew Schulz]

It's not because of woke college kids.

[Ezra Klein]

Or trans students or because there are.

[Andrew Schulz]

Interracial couples in serial commercials.

[Ezra Klein]

It's because the people's elected representatives don't represent the people.

[Akash Singh]

They represent the donors.

[Andrew Schulz]

And that corruption is why they just.

[Ezra Klein]

Defunded nursing homes to cut taxes for the rich.

[Andrew Schulz]

Corruption is why you pay a fortune for prescriptions. Corruption is why your insurance claim keeps getting denied. Corruption is why hedge funds get to buy up all the houses in your neighborhood, driving you out of the market.

[Ezra Klein]

And then your corporate landlord ignores your.

[Andrew Schulz]

Calls during a gas leak. Corruption is why that ambulance costs $3,000.

[Ezra Klein]

After you just had to get your.

[Andrew Schulz]

Choking toddler to the hospital. So Trump promised to attack a broken system.

[Ezra Klein]

I get it.

[Andrew Schulz]

Ripe target.

[Ezra Klein]

But here's the thing. He's a crook and a con man.

[Andrew Schulz]

And he wants to be a king. Yes, the system really is rigged.

[Ezra Klein]

But Trump's not unrigging it. He's re rigging it for himself.

[Andrew Schulz]

I'm voting for Superman. He knows how a Clark Ken Bob.

[Ezra Klein]

He'S been handsome like white Obama.

[Andrew Schulz]

Yeah, I got that same vibe.

[Akash Singh]

I felt like he was speaking like a demon.

[Andrew Schulz]

This guy's presidential. As I said.

[Ezra Klein]

I said not often I see one clip and I move somebody into my like 2028 bracket.

[Andrew Schulz]

If this guy is on the Nelk boys, I think he'll win. I think he has a chance if he goes on Nelk.

[Ezra Klein]

So that's going to be part of it. Right. Corruption is going to be a kind of thread that unites a bunch of things. But first, then you got to convince people you're actually something different than what came before. It was important. Manas have said both sides.

[Andrew Schulz]

Huge.

[Ezra Klein]

It was important.

[Akash Singh]

It's exactly what Andrew brought up with the waiter.

[Ezra Klein]

And so you're going to have to be able to come out and say, like, in some policies, in some critiques of what has gone on before, like why you're different. Right. I think that matters. Then we're going to party. This is not the presidential level. Right. The Democratic Party is going to need to be a bigger tent. You're going to have to have Mamdani in New York City and be comfortable with that. And you're also going to have to have much more concern. Conservative candidates, part of the culturally moderate candidates the Democrats have been comfortable with in other places. Like if the Democratic Party is going to win the Senate again, it needs to win in places like Kansas, Ohio, Missouri and Democratic Party. I mean, not long ago used to run pro life candidates. Right. I'm pro choice. Right. But you got to win power. And it has become a narrowed party. Republicans in different ways. But one of the best things Donald Trump did for the Republicans Republican Party was open it up to the RFK Jr. Maha thing. Right. They gave it a new kind of energy and like a tech right thing.

[Andrew Schulz]

Yeah.

[Ezra Klein]

And the Democratic Party is going to have to open itself up to coalitions and kinds of candidates that do not tick every box.

[Andrew Schulz]

Every single box.

[Ezra Klein]

They have been making people tick for a while because they like, if you don't win power, none of it matters.

[Andrew Schulz]

Like you could have virtue, you could have your purity test if they had.

[Ezra Klein]

Won, you know, six House seats that they did not win. Like the big beautiful bill never as of shot, it never goes anywhere.

[Andrew Schulz]

And people need to think about this when they're doing the finger wagon.

[Ezra Klein]

Yeah. So there's that. And then I think, and this is like actually to solve problems. It's not the case that the only problem in life is corruption. Right. Like the point of abundance, which is concerned about corruption, Although there are a lot of kind of. It's also just like you have to have a vision of the future and then be pretty ruthless in getting there. So one version of this is that Doge was a good idea. Somebody should try it. I wish it had not been a slash and grab operation trying to burn things like USAID to the ground. Not cutting money in the Pentagon, but actually making the government efficient in a way that is relentless and willing to. To break glass that is worth doing. Just yoked to good ideas and values rather than bad ones. Sort of. Similarly, I think Democrats need to sort of reemerge as the party that wants you to have more. Yeah, right. The party that it. What people understand about it is like they want you to have health care, they want you to be able to afford education. They're going to make sure there are enough homes and those homes are going to be affordable. Right. Like an old school. And they want good public infrastructure.

[Andrew Schulz]

But can they do that if they're attached to the donor Class in the same way the Republicans are.

[Ezra Klein]

Some of it they can, some of it they can't. Somebody's going to require leaders to arise who are willing to put that class in its place. Right. Donald Trump has done a lot of things the Republican donor class, so to speak, doesn't like. Yeah, right. He has done it. Like the immigration stuff they didn't like. A bunch of the trade stuff they didn't like. Some of them moved over to him. He developed different donors. Donors. Right. It's not that there's no donor class around him now. It's just a somewhat different donor class. There's also. People don't like to talk about this. There's another kind of difficulty here, which is the small donor class. So big donors, this is a whole. I love getting to talk about the old book, why we're polarized. This is a whole chapter. Big donors want transaction. Big donors are corrupting. Right. They like the reason Walmart is giving you money is it wants something, something from you. Small donors, they are highly ideological. They don't want something from you. They want you to never disagree with them. They want you to say the things that excite them and they want you to act in a way that often turns off people that aren't like them. Like them.

[Andrew Schulz]

Yeah.

[Ezra Klein]

And so you have kind of two donor classes. Big money that wants something from you and small money that wants you to act in a way that normal people find weird.

[Andrew Schulz]

Yeah.

[Ezra Klein]

And like that's. That's true on both sides. Right. The small money on the Republican side loves things about how the election was stolen. The big donor problem Republicans have here is. I'm sorry, the small donor problem Republicans have is that it pushes them into really, really weird rhetoric and positions. I mean, it would be good if we had some actual fucking public funding in this country. Right. He was talking about Citizens States United. United, which is a very bad decision where corporate money is counted as speech. And so it can kind of be unlimited in a lot of forms of politics. Behind that decision, way back is a decision called Buckley v. Valeo, where we decided, the Supreme Court decided to count money as speech. And that's why we can't do a bunch of things like limiting money in politics or doing the kinds of public funding we might want to, because the court treats that as limiting speech in politics. And so it's unconstitutional. Constitutional do if I say. And there are certain ways of like, trying to get around, but it's very hard and you really can't do it. But like other countries, they limit the amount of money you can spend on elections. We can't because it'd be a limitation of speech. And then the weirder thing we did was we made it possible to limit how much you give candidates and parties directly so the most accountable parts of the political system can't raise the money. Normally it goes into these unaccountable super PACs and independent expenditure committees. It is the most insane system. And we should blow it up.

[Andrew Schulz]

Yeah, right.

[Ezra Klein]

Part of running on corruption is having solutions. Like we should appoint people Supreme Court and pass laws that will change this. People think the system is rigged because they've created a.

[Andrew Schulz]

But there's bipartisan support for that. I don't know.

[Ezra Klein]

No, there is not.

[Andrew Schulz]

No, I mean, of the people.

[Ezra Klein]

Yes, of the people.

[Andrew Schulz]

Whenever I talk.

[Ezra Klein]

Mitch McConnell has been blocking this for years.

[Andrew Schulz]

Of course. Of course. But I'm saying that people do want that. I think if you ask Republicans and Democrats, you want money out of politics. Yes.

[Akash Singh]

Do you think this Supreme Court would overturn Buckley versus No.

[Ezra Klein]

They're extremely far right on this kind of thing.

[Akash Singh]

Yeah, I assume.

[Andrew Schulz]

And is there any going back once.

[Ezra Klein]

Money is speech to undo money being speech? If the money is getting people in? Yeah, I think the. I think the problem with that one, the hard thing about that one is the. This is it will take a long time to name new justices. More than. I think the money's money is strong in politics. It is not as determinative as people think. If it was, Zoram Dani would not have won the New York City mayoral campaign. If it was, Donald Trump would not have won in 2016 or separately in 2024. Like, money helps, but particularly where there's a lot of attention, money is really, really decisive in, like, House races nobody has ever heard of.

[Andrew Schulz]

That's where it's more effective.

[Ezra Klein]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schulz]

Yeah.

[Ezra Klein]

But it is somewhat less decisive at things like the presidential level, at things where people are paying attention. Because what does money buy you? Attention. Money buys you attention, and increasingly it's bad at buying you attention. I don't know if you guys noticed this. Being in New York, I get endless mailers from Cuomo that I noticed five days after the election when I checked my mail, as I do every once in a while, whereas my phone was.

[Andrew Schulz]

Full of blown up.

[Ezra Klein]

Cuomo had a lot more money, but they didn't know how to spend. Defend it.

[Andrew Schulz]

Yeah, right.

[Ezra Klein]

But, yes, money is like one of the big problems here.

[Akash Singh]

But if the Supreme Court is not theoretically going to overturn Buckley versus Vallejo, I guess it was.

[Ezra Klein]

Yeah.

[Akash Singh]

It's not going to do that anytime in the next 10, 15 years. What hope do you have?

[Ezra Klein]

There's a lot you could do that is legal. So there are a lot of acts around disclosure and Democrats have been pushing these acts in Congress for a long time. But one of them was called the DISCLOSE act, in fact, and they would require a lot more transparency and like listing the names of whose funding, what commercial. They basically make it kind of embarrassing. Yeah, I love that doing this. So there's a lot of that.

[Andrew Schulz]

So accountability.

[Ezra Klein]

Yeah, there's accountability. There are ways to do things like matching donations where you can help people who are not raising a ton of corporate money. I'm not saying there's any perfect solution. There isn't.

[Andrew Schulz]

Okay.

[Ezra Klein]

But there are. So there are things that would make it better and things you could do.

[Akash Singh]

You know, to harken back to something you said earlier about Democrats becoming the party of more again, I think they became the party of more rights. But I think most people, the average more right you have the right to do this surgery, the right to go to this bathroom. And I'm not saying those are invalid, but I think the average person is like, well, I don't have enough to survive in life materially. I need more of that before we get to more of this.

[Ezra Klein]

People who do polling on these things have shown me they're polling. And one of the kind of interesting things I've seen is a poll of who do you think the parties care the most about? And for the Democrats it was like the poor LGBTQ people who are non white. And there was one more, but it wasn't just like the middle class, right. And Republicans have their own donors, et cetera. And then there's like another one of like what do you an issues poll that has a kind of similar problem. Like the only issue that people believe Democrats care about and that the public prioritizes is health care. The other things that they believe Democrats care about, they are just not high on public priority lists. Climate, different kind of rights issues. It's not that you can't have all those or some of those positions at least it's that people have to think that the thing you care most about is the thing they care most about. Right. It's not just like you don't just need alignment on positions, you need alignment on priorities. And one of the places where at least in public perception from polling and like this is a well known problem among Democrats, the Democratic Party is super far out of alignment. People do not believe that like what Democrats are laser focused on is their cost of living. Like, is like the safety of their community is like the kind of, like, bread and butter stuff that politics is mostly about.

[Akash Singh]

Yeah.

[Ezra Klein]

For most people. Yeah.

[Andrew Schulz]

Okay. Before you get out of here, Colbert gets canceled.

[Ezra Klein]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schulz]

There is a lot of. I don't even know. I don't even want to call it conspiracy, but it seems like there's a lot of people that are approaching this from different angles and trying to understand why this happened, why this happened in this way. Are you kind of privy to what's going on behind the scenes at all?

[Ezra Klein]

Not behind the scenes.

[Andrew Schulz]

Okay. But, like, you have thoughts about what's happening?

[Ezra Klein]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schulz]

Well, what is your perspective?

[Ezra Klein]

So the reason people are very suspicious of what's going on. I'll lay out that case and I'll lay out the case against it, is functionally that Colbert's parent company, CBS1, the company that owns it, has wanted to do this very, very big merger. Yes. And the Trump administration has made fairly clear that whether that merger happens is going to be based on whether or not CBS and the parent company are in Trump's good graces.

[Andrew Schulz]

Now, to be clear, this isn't something that they say verbatim. They just have an appointed guy, David Carr, at the FCC, who's been holding it up for 16 months or 18 months. And there's subtle ways of expressing these feelings. And Paramount, which is the holding company of cvs, I think Shelly. What's her name, Shelley.

[Ezra Klein]

Something like.

[Andrew Schulz]

Something like that, like, desperately needs to sell this company or else they're going broke. And Skydance, I believe David Ellison, Larry Ellison's kid, is willing to buy the company, so. Or wants to buy the company. So there's this idea like the FCC could block this or the FCC could make this happen. And this is where we talk about the corruption, which is essentially, hey, if you're going to. If you want us to play ball, you got to be in our good grace.

[Ezra Klein]

And the 2020 theory of, like, how do you use your leverage through the government to bring all these institutions that you think have been taken over by. By. By the left to heal? Okay, so. So a couple things have happened before Colbert. Right. There was a settlement of a defamation lawsuit that was widely believed to be kind of ridiculous.

[Andrew Schulz]

This is the cbs.

[Ezra Klein]

Yeah. George Stephanopoulos, I think it is.

[Andrew Schulz]

Oh, that's abc, I think.

[Ezra Klein]

No, which one? Yeah. Which one do they sell?

[Andrew Schulz]

The cbs. ABC also settled, which I think is an important point.

[Ezra Klein]

But.

[Andrew Schulz]

But the CBS one was that there was a favorable editing To a question. I could be getting this wrong. But essentially when they posted the answer that Kamala gave on News Nation, it was different than the answer she gave on the full 60 Minutes interview. Now, they might make the argument that, like, it was a piece of the answer to the question on News Nation. And I think it was the Full answer on 60 Minutes. I could be getting this wrong. But essentially the idea is like, hey, they edited to make her look better, with which gave her unfavorable news time or no, sorry, gave her more favorable news time. They were essentially working as a propaganda tool to protect her.

[Ezra Klein]

This is the kind of thing that within journalism, you would have never settled. Right. Like, the culture of journalism going back a very long time is you fight this shit tooth and nail.

[Andrew Schulz]

And my understanding is from talking to some people in the business who I would say are not biased towards Trump or against him. Basically, basically they said that CBS would win this lawsuit.

[Ezra Klein]

That was widely believed.

[Andrew Schulz]

Okay. But it would be dragged on in court for years. And that's not something that they want because they're trying to get this merger put through.

[Ezra Klein]

So they settled for, I believe it was $16 million. $16 million. 60 Minutes. Also CBS, right?

[Andrew Schulz]

That is the show. So 60 Minutes.

[Ezra Klein]

Yeah, so 60 Minutes. There's another thing that happens. So at 60 Minutes, they begin, which is like a very, very revere newspaper program, of course, is very, very strong editorial control. They begin putting so much pressure on the editors there on Trump stories that the key editor publicly resigns.

[Andrew Schulz]

Pressure on the editors means just interfering.

[Ezra Klein]

With their editorial independence, trying to push the show and how it's covered to.

[Andrew Schulz]

Be more lenient on Trump. Got it.

[Ezra Klein]

And he sort of publicly resigns. This becomes a big public thing. So this is the backdrop behind which the culture bear move happens. People seeing that CBS was folding sort of repeatedly, that they have this big thing in front of Trump, that it is the assumption a lot of people are working under is that this is what is governing the actions of the company. And then they cut Colbert. The argument to try to be fair and to say that we don't really know. Right. I was not in any board meetings there about what to do about Colbert, and I'm a huge fan of Stephen Colbert. The argument that they have made is that the show was losing a lot of money, that late night television, it's very, very expensive, and the ratings have gone down, like they've gone down for lots of stuff over the years, and it just no longer kind of works. The other argument against that, this is all About Trump is that they didn't take him off tomorrow. Right. He's on for another, another 10 months, which is like slightly awkward for everybody.

[Andrew Schulz]

That's contractual.

[Ezra Klein]

Is that contractual? So that would explain.

[Andrew Schulz]

So I imagine so, yeah. There's like a lot of like inside baseball with this kind of stuff. But I imagine Stephen has something in his contract which is if you're not going to renew him, you have to give him a year notice. So I'm sure that came up and they were like, okay, we're going to cancel you. And what I imagine happened is they said, would you mind waiting six months before you say it?

[Ezra Klein]

Uh huh. And he mind it.

[Andrew Schulz]

And he said, I mind. And he went out that day and he said, they're canceling us because if it waits six months now you don't have any conversation about, oh, it was a quid pro quo. They want to get this deal made because it happened much later.

[Ezra Klein]

Yeah. So I don't know any of the internal internals on this. I'm trying to be as fair as I can to like, why. Maybe we don't know what happened. But Colbert and that show are like a real marquee property. If the issue is it's like losing money. You can cut its budget.

[Andrew Schulz]

You can't.

[Ezra Klein]

Huh?

[Andrew Schulz]

You can't.

[Ezra Klein]

You think it's impossible to do.

[Andrew Schulz]

So this is the, this is the problem with it and this is the, the nuance that I think a lot of people don't know. In order for Colbert to stay in New York, they got tax incentives. Those tax incentives were tied to hiring a certain amount of people and maintaining those hires. So it is.

[Ezra Klein]

I did not know this.

[Andrew Schulz]

Yeah. So this is like, it's very easy. Colbert doesn't lose money. It makes like $50 million a year. Unfortunately, it costs 100 to make. Why does it cost 100 to make? Because you have seven different unions. You got to run. It was making 80 or $90 million back in the day. I think Chris Licht was running the show. So it's not like it wasn't a profitable endeavor. What they've seen is advertising dollars remove itself from linear. Completely linear, meaning like what you watch on tv, not on digital, there is an audience for Colbert. It's just not linear. His clips go viral, they do great online. The show just hasn't adapted to where people watch things now. And the model is antiquated. And it's built in to this system to maintain these deals and relationships. So it doesn't go. If you take that show and you do it in fucking Jersey or Connecticut, you can make that show profitable in a fucking second. But then you lose the tax incentives that keep you in New York in the first place. And this idea that it's this New York institution.

[Ezra Klein]

So this was so, I don't know, some of the tax incentives side. But the way this was sort of like describing. Described to me was the feeling is, look, they're probably having real meetings about the show and about budget.

[Andrew Schulz]

Yeah.

[Ezra Klein]

And that in another world where there's not this big advantage to canceling it, you figure something else out. Maybe you do move it to New Jersey. Right. If he doesn't want to move to New Jersey. Well, it's not Colbert show anymore. Right. But that wasn't where the money for them was.

[Akash Singh]

You could do the Akash Sing show in Ohio. I just want to.

[Ezra Klein]

Yeah, it's not. And they didn't just give it to someone else or they just. You know what?

[Andrew Schulz]

I think they're getting out of Late Night because they don't see it as a profitable endeavor. If they just fired Colbert, but they maintain the show, then you go, whoa, this is so transactional. But it is one of these situations where it is beneficial for this deal to go through. Nobody would deny that. But also the deal was the show probably would be canceled in a year anyway, maybe if there wasn't this deal to go through. They let Colbert run his contract and then they go, guys, we're going to retire late night, because nobody watches late night anymore. But at the same time, you never want government influence and being nice to the President to dictate whether a comedian can say anything. I don't care if it's liberal or conservative. So, like, I want there to be the comedians that are holding the people in power, you know, accountable. I want that. Matter of fact, it's actually even more important that you're doing it for the opposition. Well, I want to say more important, because both sides should be holding the people of power accountable now. But you don't want to the person in power to go, hey, you don't agree with me and you have a late night show. Well, you're off the air. If the show was making 1 million a year, not even 100 million, 1 million a year. This is a very hard thing to cancel without blowback. They, unfortunately for Colbert and his supporters, have an economic justification for the cancellation. Even though I believe they're being disingenuous in terms of why they did it in this moment.

[Ezra Klein]

I think this also gets to this difficulty of having all of Society under this cloud of suspicion of, like, why are different institutions doing things? What the Trump administration has tried to do across a pretty vast array of institutional contexts. Law firms, universities, media. Right. Like, almost anything you can think of. Immigration is use what money and power they have to to try to contain and change how these institutions act and what they can do and what they believe they can do.

[Andrew Schulz]

Yeah.

[Ezra Klein]

Has been completely explicit. Right. Like, this is something that, you know, they talk about.

[Andrew Schulz]

Wait, are you telling me Amazon paid $40 million for a Melania Trump documentary?

[Ezra Klein]

To be fair, for some other reason, there. There were two documentaries in that. Okay.

[Andrew Schulz]

I thought it was just one.

[Ezra Klein]

Yeah. Okay.

[Andrew Schulz]

You don't think that had anything to do with anything else?

[Ezra Klein]

So this was also. And it goes to why I think corruption is a strong political argument. But I've just always sort of put this. Trump has always made the rules of the Trump administration very, very clear, which is you say nice things about him and you give him things and you get things in return, and you say mean things about him and you don't give him things, and he will do what he can to harm. Harm you. And one thing you're seeing is a lot of other countries are just like, oh, I get it. Right. Here is your invitation to a party at the castle. Qatar, giving him the jet. This is why he likes to do these sort of individual tariff deals. He's trying to make everything into bilateral negotiations between him wielding the power of the state and you, the supplicant institution or figure who wants something.

[Andrew Schulz]

Yeah.

[Ezra Klein]

Who needs something or who fears something. It's like a very crime boss way of running everything. But it also creates this question of why are things happening, including things we don't know about. Right, right. You know, we don't know what negotiations happen or what phone calls are made that we never hear. Like, a good ver. Like another version of this just around the tariffs. And you have all these. These tariff exemptions. But how do you get a tariff.

[Andrew Schulz]

Exemption before we go to tariffs? I just don't want to leave this. It's like, we have to put some accountability on paramount. Like, I feel like what we're doing is just like, oh, Trump is the bad guy. He's putting the leverage. It's like, no, you're a massive media company and you can choose not to bend the knee. And what we have to do is hold media companies accountable. It's like, we did it for years when we were clamoring about, like, oh, I can't do these jokes on tv. I can't nobody's giving me an opportunity. And, like, what were forced to do is use the Internet. And, like, I would implore.

[Ezra Klein]

How'd that work out for you?

[Andrew Schulz]

Okay. I would implore, like, Colbert right now. Like, I don't know if he wants to do this, but I'm like, dude, you have an audience. People love you. Right. They want to watch your show. Put that straight on the Internet. Prove that there is an audience for this.

[Akash Singh]

Prove that people want that you exist beyond the brand.

[Andrew Schulz]

Prove you exist beyond, beyond the brand and have all your supporters support you. Make way more money. Continue paying the staff. Like, use the Internet in the same way that all of us used it, and we'll support your freedom of speech for that. Like, if I just. No, no, no. I'm saying you could do a different version of the show. But I'm just saying, like, there's one thing. If we just complain, if we're like, we can't say anything and then didn't try to do something on our own, then we're just whining. We put all of our money up like, we had no money.

[Ezra Klein]

I'm talking about we should be upset at Paramount. I don't think, like, it's the pressure.

[Andrew Schulz]

Coming from the President of the United States. I don't give a fuck. Like, they're a business.

[Ezra Klein]

They're trying to turn a profit like that.

[Andrew Schulz]

Like, no, they're going to block a huge merger. No, no, we have to hold Trump accountable. We have to hold the fcc.

[Akash Singh]

I think we can.

[Andrew Schulz]

But we also can hold these people accountable for greed. They just want to sell the company for billions of dollars.

[Akash Singh]

But percentage wise, you.

[Andrew Schulz]

Why are we letting billionaires off the hook? Because Trump is disagreeing with them. Why don't.

[Akash Singh]

I think he agrees. I think he agrees, but I think percentage wise, you put way more on Trump.

[Ezra Klein]

Yeah.

[Akash Singh]

And I think that's the important distinction.

[Andrew Schulz]

I guess. I guess I'm. I'm not.

[Ezra Klein]

I'm not taking any potential point on this, because there is a reality. There is a reality that it matters what everybody in society does. I have this thing that every institution, every person, you're like a node of social coordination. And other people will do the things that people like them are doing. And when you have one thing that's been different about Trump's second term from his first is just the amount of call bending the media. But just like, paying to play.

[Andrew Schulz]

Yeah.

[Ezra Klein]

Is like, maybe the friendliest way for me.

[Andrew Schulz]

Sure. Like, all the tech guys show up.

[Ezra Klein]

Right. Like, all of this. And you Know the law firms that were folding, like the early universities that felt it. And Harvard, because of that $50 billion.

[Andrew Schulz]

Endowment, was able to fight.

[Ezra Klein]

Was able to fight. Right. The others can't.

[Andrew Schulz]

That's what I'm saying about Paramount. Yeah.

[Ezra Klein]

And, yeah. And, like, people should feel dishonored by this. Right? The fact that Paramount is coming in for a lot of fire is, Is accurate. It is, like, Trump's fault. But also, the Trump administration is not relentless in the face of pushback. Like, if people weren't, like, paying a play, they've changed their demands. And at the same time, like, the fucking federal government's really powerful. If you're going to weaponize every part of it, it's going to be hard for people.

[Andrew Schulz]

Let me just at least first validate and acknowledge that. I'm not saying that that isn't wrong. It absolutely is wrong, 100%. What I'm also saying is, like, when we weren't getting opportunities at Commerce Central and it was very different. It's not like, like, whoever was president at the time, I don't know if it was Obama going, hey, you better not let this type of comedy on Comedy Central. Like, we held Comedy Central accountable, right? We're like, hey, why are you censoring comedy so much? Why are you putting this neutered, watered down bullshit out that nobody likes? The network is failing. Right. Nobody's watching the specials on Comedy Central. We found a way to go do it somewhere else. And I, like, implore comics to do that, and we have to reward the comics to do that. Like, even if you don't like the angle of comedy, you still gotta fight for comedy, at least. I don't know. That's my personal opinion. Like, I want Colbert to have a show. I want him to make fun of the president. I want him to push back. Like, that's good. Good for comedy. Comedy. Comedy in its essence is like making fun of institutions, not reinforcing them. You know what I mean? The institutions that are in power, you know? So, like, I just feel like. I feel like we're kind of like letting Paramount off without any blame here, when we could be going, this is an opportunity for you to stand up for your network and what you believe in.

[Ezra Klein]

Didn't you say they were going to go bankrupt if they don't make this merger? Bankrupt?

[Andrew Schulz]

Like, you're a billionaire. How bankrupt? Like, all. Oh, my God. Sorry. You own Paramount and now you can't.

[Akash Singh]

No, I think we are essentially agreeing that both parties are accountable. I just think having. I went to India. I interviewed all these comics and I saw what it's like when the government censors you because they don't like you. And I think we as comics who are like the free speech guys, what we're. You're doing it. But let's just also make sure that everybody hears it. Hey, that's. We can't do that.

[Ezra Klein]

I have suffered.

[Akash Singh]

This ain't America.

[Andrew Schulz]

Did it come across like I was like saying?

[Akash Singh]

But I just want to make sure that's clear.

[Andrew Schulz]

Yeah. Because it's not okay at all. I don't want to see any version of it.

[Ezra Klein]

This is the thing I have some fear about right now in a, in a slightly different way I've been thinking about. We've talked a little bit about how as they've been under pressure on the Epstein files, they have been ratcheting up the rhetoric and other enemies. Right. Specifically Obama with that sort of weird AI, like between that AI video, like Obama being arrested in the, in the, in the Oval Office. But not only like the Murdochs, the media, the whatever. One thing I wonder about with them is that as things start to go wrong, right, if they're under pressure, if they're looking their midterm is going badly or looking bad or they lose the House in the midterms is if they start to get cornered. Like, what kinds of fights do they try to create to distract from their problems or to create a kind of different problem that they would prefer to be in. Right. Because as you're saying from India, in other places, this stuff can really get dangerous. And some stuff they've been doing with immigrants. Again, I've sort of talked about my fears of what they will try to do with New York in a mamnani mayoralty, because I think they will just want that fight. They have an instinct. Trump has an instinct. And you really saw it on display that when he is instant in trouble, he tries to move his base by escalating warfare with some other enemy first. And I, I just see that coming. Right. I don't think we're in like a steady equilibrium. And you just really saw in this, like how they'll turn it up.

[Andrew Schulz]

But it didn't work. I don't think it worked. And that's why when there is.

[Akash Singh]

But I don't think they're going to get done.

[Andrew Schulz]

They're not going to stop. But. But I think that's why the Epstein thing is like such a perfect thing for like the American populace to support, because it puts this immense pressure on him to Deliver. Deliver on a promise that he actually has the power to deliver on. And he's choosing not to.

[Akash Singh]

So you're saying strategically, we should not let up on this. Do not let up, not let yourself.

[Andrew Schulz]

Don't be distracted by the other. It's like, if I see, like, liberals hammering this, like, change the name to the Redskins.

[Ezra Klein]

Any liberals, actually, no people talking about this.

[Andrew Schulz]

But that's what I love. I'm like, this is great. So if I see them falling for it, I'm going, guys, this is the trap. Yeah, you're falling for, for the bay. Stay on this one thing that is important to you because you're a decent human being that he has the power to reveal. And if he chooses and his administration chooses, and these congressmen choose not to, to me, it shows that they're complicit in it.

[Ezra Klein]

And I agree. And I think it's also equally as important to point out all this corruption, all this pay to play, all this, like, silencing pbs, npr.

[Andrew Schulz]

We do it right now.

[Ezra Klein]

Yeah. Like, we have to keep the foot on the neck.

[Andrew Schulz]

Absolutely. And people will be upset at us slowly changing Instagram. Hey, you had them on your podcast. This is why we're in this situation. I get that. I get the frustration. But like, we also got to. What do we do in that situation? Do we just sit here and go like, okay, I guess we won't say anything? No, no, we got to keep saying it. Anytime it goes against something that, like, we feel is important, we got to keep saying it.

[Ezra Klein]

One of the things that I find so frustrating about the administration and like, the way that they weaponize things that are real and then take it in a. In, in, in. In a really dark direction. It's like, how much did we hear in the Biden era, but about free speech and understand the idea of cancel culture was real and the idea that people felt afraid to say certain things was real. And then they come in and in space after space where they have power, they are using the power of the state directly to change what people can say. They are going through immigrants phones. You can't get into this country through customs. If the wrong thing is on your phone, you can say what they allow you to say. They went through all the grants and canceled everyone with the word diversity. And if you had said anything as a public employee, you got fired. Right. They have gone to this kind of enforcement of the speech the boss allows. And I'm not just like, here to call hypocrisy. Like, to your good political point, there are a lot of people who actually do care about free speech.

[Andrew Schulz]

You're saying, acting like a Democrat.

[Ezra Klein]

Which.

[Andrew Schulz]

Should frustrate us all.

[Ezra Klein]

Like, he is acting as a way people, I think, think Democrats act like Democrats wield a lot of cultural power. He's wielding a lot of state power.

[Akash Singh]

That's a great distinction.

[Ezra Klein]

That's a great distinction.

[Andrew Schulz]

The same frustration that a lot of people have with Democrats, you know, silencing free speech culturally, maybe not through policy, but at least through cancellation. And like, you can't say these words and you're naughty and all this finger wagging. If he's doing the same thing through state power. Yes. One that's like actual power that can restrict those things. So I'm not arguing like, what is worse. What I'm saying is that same sentiment of restricting free speech should enrage all of us that like free speech and we got to call it out on both sides. And like. Yeah, I don't know. I. I feel like there should be unilateral support for that, you know, because you heard, you heard the right talk a lot about it. Right. You heard a light talk about like, free speech is the freedom to say things you disagree with. It's like, all right, well, yeah, where.

[Ezra Klein]

Were they sued the Des Moines Register.

[Andrew Schulz]

But I agree with that over.

[Ezra Klein]

And Selzer poll showing him down in Iowa.

[Andrew Schulz]

Yeah.

[Ezra Klein]

Even though he won. Like, polls are wrong sometimes.

[Andrew Schulz]

Ann sells her as an anti Semite and she hasn't said that Israel enough. And you know that.

[Ezra Klein]

I mean, I don't know enough. But even like the Khalil Mahmoud situation.

[Andrew Schulz]

Oh, yeah.

[Ezra Klein]

Like that seemed like a suppression of free speech. I mean, I, I will be able to say more about like he's. I'm doing a show with him tomorrow. Oh, really? It'll come out in a little bit. So I haven't talked to him yet. But yeah, the throwing of people in detention for things they have said absolutely is terrifying. Right. I mean, we are not supposed to do that. And a lot of people who are rallying for free speech at one point, like, seem pretty about that. But there are a lot of people actually do care about, like, something I'll give like Joe Rogan credit for. Right. It was like he's pretty loud on due process over these last couple of months. Like, this is not like, this is not the way we want to be doing things. Right.

[Andrew Schulz]

And Israel.

[Ezra Klein]

Yeah. And.

[Andrew Schulz]

And Israel.

[Ezra Klein]

I haven't watched mine. Israel.

[Andrew Schulz]

Yeah.

[Ezra Klein]

So I think. I don't know what I'm agreeing to.

[Andrew Schulz]

Just criticism of the, like, extent of the destruction in Gaza.

[Ezra Klein]

Yeah, I mean, yeah, that's a different topic. But yes, the weaponization of the government's powers to change, like, what institutions can do and say all the way to what individuals can do and say is, like, really scary. Right. Like, all these, like, students who are terrified of getting things revoked and. And the feeling that this is going to escalate.

[Andrew Schulz]

Yeah.

[Ezra Klein]

Right. And so, yeah, this feels like a place where people should draw a very, very hard line. And it's why I'm sort of more on your side. Yes, it is hard as a person running a university who is responsible for its income. Yes, it's hard as a person running a corporation who wants to sell it or doesn't want to lose contracts or whatever it is. And also, yeah, it's hard. Like, you know, it's hard.

[Andrew Schulz]

Took the job, dude.

[Ezra Klein]

Yeah, you took a job. Like, you know what's hard? It's like working three jobs and not making enough to support your family. You know, it's hard is like, coming here as a refugee and being turned away, or, like, having lived here and, like, have a job under a temporary protection program, having Trump, like, yank it away. Like, I'm just not. Like, the job is hard. Not that sympathetic.

[Andrew Schulz]

We say it's a policeman all the time and people have no issue with it. Right? They're like, yeah, the job is hard. It is dangerous. Like, they say that they throw it in policeman's face and it's like, well, let's throw it in a billionaire media conglomerate's face.

[Ezra Klein]

Like, Jeff Bezos could.

[Andrew Schulz]

Hard job.

[Ezra Klein]

Yeah. Jeff Bezos could have been like, Jeff Bezos who personally, as I understand it, cleared Democracy dies in darkness, like, in the first administration. And, like, is out here, like, you know, I guess, like, you know, paying Melania Trump $40 million to be an executive producer on two documentaries. Like, the whole thing.

[Andrew Schulz]

I wonder what that has to do with. I wonder if there's any government contracts that Amazon wants.

[Ezra Klein]

There's just been a. There's just been, I think, an abdication of responsibility among people who have social responsibility. Like, they do not just have shareholder.

[Andrew Schulz]

How badass would it be if Colbert just did. Did the show himself with the team? I love that on YouTube. And it became the biggest show. It's like, take the same exact model that a lot of us did during a time where we felt like we couldn't say or didn't get the opportunities on, like, you know, traditional networks or whatever. You go, you do it on YouTube and it explodes or it dies and it. That's the people will decide. But what a badass move. And if you really want to hold the powers to be accountable, like, there's a perfect opportunity for it. I think there'd be so much support just off of the rebelliousness of it. Like, it'd be awesome to say, you're going to shut me down. You, I got some money and I got a great staff and we're going to make great shows. And it could be a smaller version of it, but to me, that is just such a great.

[Akash Singh]

What multiverse would that be where the mainstream media is super pro Trump and then the Internet media is Trump.

[Andrew Schulz]

How cool would that be?

[Ezra Klein]

But like, I don't think the thing you said a little bit ago, which I think is like, really. Right. I mean, comedy and also independent media is like. But nature. Anti institutionalist.

[Andrew Schulz]

Yeah.

[Ezra Klein]

Trump is the institution. This is the whole problem they're having with Epstein. Like, and it opens up vulnerabilities they don't really know what to do with. Yeah, they know they are much better at wielding the power of being the system. Now, I don't mean to look, they also don't know what to do about being the system.

[Akash Singh]

To your point about Epstein, Trump Live UPDATES Judge Denies Request to Unseal Epstein Grand Jury Transcripts in Florida so I.

[Ezra Klein]

Guess so even the non measure, they still.

[Andrew Schulz]

Yeah, yeah, you got to. This is. Listen, bro, it's like, you got to talk about it.

[Ezra Klein]

They're protecting pedophiles, man.

[Andrew Schulz]

They 100% are. They 100% are.

[Ezra Klein]

They are protecting pedophiles.

[Andrew Schulz]

100% are. You know, and I hate that you agree with this Ezra Klein, man. Thank you so much. Thank you for your time. But we also got another banked app with Ezra that we got to drop in the near future, which is. It's just great. Where you got to talk a lot more about abundance and a lot more about the issues with like housing and everything in the book. And I, I want to put that out as well, but we just want to get one that was a little bit more, you know, topical and addressing what's going on today. So thank you so much.

[Ezra Klein]

Thank you. Appreciate it.

[Andrew Schulz]

Thank you, man. Thank you.