Why Relationships Die & Which Ethnicity is WORST in Divorce | The Divorce Expert

Summary

Podcast Summary: Andrew Schulz's Flagrant with Akaash Singh – Why Relationships Die & Which Ethnicity is WORST in Divorce | The Divorce Expert

Introduction

In this episode of Andrew Schulz's Flagrant with Akaash Singh, hosts Andrew Schulz and Akaash Singh delve deep into the tumultuous world of relationships and divorces with their special guest, Jim Sexton, a renowned divorce attorney known for handling some of the most high-profile and intense cases. The discussion spans the origins of modern love, the complexities of divorce across different cultures, the pivotal role of prenups, and actionable insights for maintaining successful marriages.

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1. The Nature of Love and Marriage

Jim Sexton kicks off the conversation by challenging the contemporary understanding of love and marriage:

• Jim Sexton [00:00]: "What most people call love today was something that was invented in the 50s to sell shampoo."

He criticizes the government's involvement in marriage contracts, equating it to bureaucratic inefficiencies akin to those found at the DMV.

• Jim Sexton [00:25]: "You are pro marriage. You're just anti marriage without a prenup."

Key Insight: Sexton argues that the institutionalization of marriage often detracts from its authentic, personal essence, turning it into a legal entanglement rather than a purely emotional bond.

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2. Divorce Cases and Dynamics

Jim Sexton shares harrowing accounts of extreme divorce cases, highlighting the potential for violence and manipulation:

• Jim Sexton [00:34]: "Her husband ran her over three times and stabbed her 16 times."

• Jim Sexton [04:06]: "She got 100%. She also had to get like another kidney and some other things. So she lost out."

Key Insight: Divorce can escalate beyond legal disputes, leading to physical violence and significant personal loss, underscoring the necessity for careful legal preparation and emotional support.

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3. High Net Worth vs. Average Divorces

Sexton differentiates between high net worth (HNWI) and average divorces, noting that affluent cases are often more complex due to intricate asset divisions and aggressive legal strategies.

• Jim Sexton [04:35]: "High net worth is generally defined as a divorce where the estate is more than $10 million, ultra high net worth is over $100 million."

He explains how wealthy individuals employ sophisticated tactics to protect their assets, often resulting in prolonged legal battles.

Key Insight: The financial dimension of a divorce significantly influences its complexity and duration, with HNWI couples facing unique challenges that require specialized legal expertise.

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4. The Role of Lawyers

Sexton emphasizes the dual role of lawyers in representing both clients and the legal system:

• Jim Sexton [07:07]: "I represent the client, but I also represent the system. And I don't always believe in the client, but I believe in the system."

He discusses the ethical dilemmas lawyers face, especially when representing clients with malicious intent.

Key Insight: Lawyers must navigate the delicate balance between advocating for their clients and upholding the integrity of the legal system, often facing moral quandaries in high-stakes divorce cases.

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5. Prenups: Importance, Stigma, and Future

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around prenuptial agreements. Sexton advocates for prenups as protective measures for both parties, challenging societal stigmas associated with them.

• Jim Sexton [61:53]: "I think fundamentalism. They need half of her value is an important thing."

• Jim Sexton [68:01]: "Prenups are like saying, we’re committing to outline expectations now so that if things go south, we handle it fairly."

He introduces the concept of democratizing prenups, making them accessible beyond the wealthy elite through innovations like AI-driven platforms.

Key Quote:

• Jim Sexton [62:26]: "Because you bought a house. Yeah, right. You bought a house. You had to sign a HUD one. A lead paint disclosure. You got all this information about the loan. You got married. You can get a pamphlet. You just did the most legally significant thing you're going to do in your whole life other than die, and you have no clue what happened the first time."

Key Insight: Prenups are essential tools for clarifying financial and personal expectations before marriage, promoting transparency and reducing conflicts during divorces. Efforts to normalize and simplify prenups can lead to healthier marital relationships.

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6. Cultural and Ethnic Stereotypes in Divorce

Sexton addresses stereotypes about different ethnicities in the context of divorces, particularly highlighting the perceived ruthlessness of Russian women and the challenges faced by Italian women:

• Jim Sexton [01:03]: "Russian women, in my experience professionally, they get ice cold. When you're divorcing a Russian woman, there is nothing she won't do to you."

• Jim Sexton [130:26]: "Look, sometimes stereotypes are a real time saver. Let's just call that out. Let's just, let's just call that out. And sometimes they're wildly inaccurate."

Key Insight: While cultural stereotypes can provide superficial insights, they often overlook the individuality of cases and the nuanced reasons behind marital conflicts and divorces.

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7. Child Support and Alimony

The discussion delves into the mechanics and implications of child support and alimony, with Sexton critiquing the legal system's approach:

• Jim Sexton [44:33]: "What happens is these people pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to accountants and tax attorneys to make sure they don't have to pay taxes, but they don't anticipate that when they get divorced. This is just going to blow up in your face."

• Jim Sexton [74:03]: "Alimony is a payment that's made from one former spouse to another, intended to rehabilitate their earning capacity or approximate the marital lifestyle."

He discusses how legal obligations related to child support and alimony can sometimes result in unintended consequences, such as individuals being jailed for non-payment despite genuine financial hardship.

Key Insight: The financial repercussions of divorce extend beyond asset division, with child support and alimony playing critical roles that can either stabilize or destabilize post-divorce lives, depending on their implementation.

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8. Historical Context of Marriage

Sexton provides a brief history of marriage, tracing its roots to feudalism and arranged marriages aimed at preserving wealth and alliances:

• Jim Sexton [137:04]: "Marriage, legal marriage started essentially during feudalism. It was essentially joining clans, bringing annexing lands, bringing together armies."

He contrasts this with the modern notion of marrying for love, which he argues was commercialized in the 1950s to promote consumer goods like shampoo.

Key Insight: Understanding the historical evolution of marriage from a strategic alliance to a romantic union sheds light on contemporary marital practices and societal expectations.

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9. Tips for Maintaining Successful Marriages

Drawing from his extensive experience, Sexton shares practical advice for sustaining healthy relationships:

• Jim Sexton [157:42]: "Pay attention and just make a point of cheering for the person that you're with. That's it."

• Jim Sexton [24:34]: "I think it's foolish to attribute negative intentions. Approach relationships with honesty and open communication."

He emphasizes the importance of small, daily gestures of appreciation and the need for honest conversations about expectations and obligations.

Key Insight: Successful marriages thrive on continuous attention, open communication, and mutual support, with small acts of appreciation playing a significant role in maintaining emotional bonds.

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10. Conclusion and Key Takeaways

The episode concludes with Sexton reinforcing the importance of proactive legal and emotional strategies in marriage:

• Jim Sexton [117:10]: "Having a conversation about what you owe each other and what you expect is crucial, even if you don't end up doing a prenup."

• Jim Sexton [157:28]: "Pay attention and cheer for your partner. Those little things keep the marriage intact."

Key Takeaway: Both legal preparedness and daily emotional investments are essential for the longevity and health of marriages. By addressing potential issues upfront and nurturing the relationship continuously, couples can mitigate the risks of divorce and build a stronger, more resilient partnership.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Jim Sexton [00:00]: "What most people call love today was something that was invented in the 50s to sell shampoo."

• Jim Sexton [07:07]: "I represent the client, but I also represent the system. And I don't always believe in the client, but I believe in the system."

• Jim Sexton [61:53]: "I think fundamentalism. They need half of her value is an important thing."

• Jim Sexton [157:42]: "Pay attention and just make a point of cheering for the person that you're with. That's it."

Final Thoughts

This episode provides a compelling blend of legal expertise and personal insights into the dynamics of marriage and divorce. Jim Sexton's candid discussions highlight the often-overlooked aspects of marital relationships, emphasizing the need for both legal foresight and emotional investment. For listeners navigating the complexities of relationships or facing the prospect of divorce, the episode offers valuable perspectives and actionable advice.

Transcript

[Jim Sexton]

Why is it rude to say to someone, you guys are getting along, you're in love, you're having fun. Why do you want to get the government involved? What most people call love today was something that was invented in the 50s to sell shampoo. Wow. All three of you have a prenup. The government wrote it. You think that's a good idea? You ever been to the dmv? You ever walk into the DMV and go, these people should be in charge of everything?

[Andrew Schultz]

You are pro marriage. You're just anti marriage without a prenup.

[Jim Sexton]

People want to do dumb. You want to do some dumb? Do some dumb. Just admit you're doing some dumb.

[Mark Gagnon]

What is your craziest divorce that you.

[Jim Sexton]

Well, I shouldn't say this in public, but I will. Her husband ran her over three times and stabbed her 16 times.

[Mark Gagnon]

Who's the worst in divorce? Culturally, ethnically, racially?

[Jim Sexton]

Look, sometimes stereotypes are a real time saver. Let's just call that out. Russian women, in my experience professionally, they get ice cold. When you're married to a Russian woman, there's nothing she won't do for you. And when you're divorcing a Russian woman, there is nothing she won't do to you like she will Your right up.

[Mark Gagnon]

Is there anything that you've learned through all these divorces about what makes marriages successful?

[Jim Sexton]

I've learned a lot by being a divorce lawyer about what keeps people together. What I've learned, I would say more than anything else, is just pay attention. People get divorced the same way. They go bankrupt very slowly and then all at once.

[Mark Gagnon]

What's up, everybody? Welcome to Flagrant. And today's guest, I just want to point out, was not suggested by any of the people that were sitting here. Okay? All happily married or in great relationships. And none of us would suggest such a guest. Okay. A prolific guest, mind you. Okay, we got Jim Sexton here, the world's most murderous divorce attorney.

[Jim Sexton]

Wow. Shit. That's going on the website. Andrew Schultz of Netflix fame. Really?

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah, obviously. Obviously. You're incredibly successful. We've seen a bunch of the content that you've put up out on the Internet, like, in mostly interviews that you've done. It's kind of interesting because you've been this divorce attorney for decades, and now you have, like, a public profile about your job.

[Jim Sexton]

So bizarre.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yes.

[Jim Sexton]

So bizarre. I can't actually stand still anywhere in New York City because people without someone coming up going, you're that divorce lawyer. You know, the problem is when you do, like, if you're Going to be known for a viral clip. Don't be wearing the same outfit you wear every day.

[Akash Singh]

Like, point.

[Jim Sexton]

I didn't because there's no way to cam. It's like your mustache. Yeah. If you shave that shit, you could probably get away with it for a few days. Yeah, you blend right in.

[Mark Gagnon]

But that's what I'm playing out.

[Jim Sexton]

That's what you got. When I want to take a week or two off, that's my advice. Are you right there?

[Mark Gagnon]

New Seleno and Barnes for us New Yorkers. Wow. Wow.

[Jim Sexton]

I got both Salido and Barnes, of.

[Andrew Schultz]

Course, man, That's a hot.

[Mark Gagnon]

They had a bad breakup.

[Jim Sexton]

Did you work on that divorce? The out of Myself? Yeah, you know, it's.

[Mark Gagnon]

That's a deep cut New York reference. I just. These were like iconic New York lawyers and it was like one of the first, like call lines for law advice.

[Jim Sexton]

Right?

[Mark Gagnon]

Like 1-800-888-8888.

[Andrew Schultz]

Did that ex.

[Mark Gagnon]

There was a lot of eights.

[Jim Sexton]

They had the most brutal breakup. Like, like epic level breakup.

[Mark Gagnon]

But then.

[Jim Sexton]

Then what's his died in Go. Like, you finish this brutal. Hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal fees trying to get away from each other and then one of you dies.

[Andrew Schultz]

Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

Fuck.

[Andrew Schultz]

That's pretty lucky for.

[Jim Sexton]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

The guy, he was like, shit, I could have saved some counsel.

[Mark Gagnon]

How many people just kill their wife instead of divorcing them?

[Jim Sexton]

Surprising number of people.

[Mark Gagnon]

Have you better. Ever been involved in one of those?

[Jim Sexton]

I never had one where someone was killed. I did have a client. Who? Her husband or estranged husband now, ex husband. Ran her over three times and stabbed her 16 times. This is during the divorce, during the divor. And she survived. Like, this guy couldn't even get that shit right. Like stabbed someone 16 times, run him over three times. And she's alive to tell the tale and he's in fucking prison.

[Andrew Schultz]

Okay, so she got 100% in the end.

[Jim Sexton]

She got 100%. She also had to get like another kidney and some other things. So she lost out.

[Andrew Schultz]

Probably can afford that on the black market.

[Jim Sexton]

Yeah. I mean, with the amount of money. Yeah, she did.

[Mark Gagnon]

All right, now what role do you play in that?

[Jim Sexton]

I wasn't like the lookout, if that's what you.

[Mark Gagnon]

There she is. Meaning, like, how much pressure were you putting on him where he just goes, I gotta kill him a lot.

[Jim Sexton]

Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, when you're dealing with like high net worth and ultra high net worth divorces.

[Mark Gagnon]

What is high net worth?

[Jim Sexton]

Just so high net worth is generally defined As a divorce, where the estate is more than $10 million, ultra high net worth is over $100 million. So that's. It's a different level in some ways because you're fighting over bigger numbers. It's harder to track the values. A lot of the stuff that people do for, like wealth preservation and tax avoidance, like super, super rich people don't own anything. They have Trusts that own LLCs that are beneficiaries of. And they're like great grandchildren that haven't been born yet. Own everything and they just borrow it from. So that's why they pay like less in taxes than a guy who works at Burger King. So it's unbelievable because they're not actually.

[Mark Gagnon]

Generating income and you only pay tax on income. I guess you could pay capital gains too, but.

[Jim Sexton]

But not if you do it the right way. Like so. So what happens is these people pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to accountants and tax attorneys to make sure they don't have to pay taxes, but they don't anticipate that when they get divorced. This is just going to blow up in your face. Why?

[Mark Gagnon]

Why is it.

[Jim Sexton]

Because it makes it so complicated to figure out where is the money? What is marital? What is outside the scope of the marital estate? What can the judge get their hands on? What can't they get their hands on? So it becomes a really, really tricky, messy thing.

[Mark Gagnon]

Do you prefer the high, the ultra high net worth clients? Those cases, I mean, they pay their.

[Jim Sexton]

Bill on time, which is nice, but.

[Mark Gagnon]

Outside of payment, is it just more stressful? Is it more gr.

[Jim Sexton]

You know, I'm very blessed. I'm at the place in my career now where I have high net worth and ultra high net worth clients. And you can have a smaller number of clients who you give a lot more personalized attention to. Because any, anybody who's at like a certain level of net worth, they are used to being weighted on and they're used to their professionals. Like they've not romanticized a lawyer. Like they know lots of lawyers. So they look at lawyers like you'd look at like a plumber. Like, you know, there's a lot of people that do this. You work for me and you know, they're used to. So. So you have to give them a certain level of attention. But unlike a plumber, like, you do get to yell at them sometimes. That's what they want.

[Mark Gagnon]

This is interesting. Yeah, you're almost like an authority figure. Even though, okay, you are. Even though they're hiring you. That's really. Yeah, it's like there's few positions where you're subservient to the person you're hiring. Like a trainer is one of them. Like your trainer can yell at you, tell you being lazy. Get your ass together. Stop eating this shit. There's lawyer and then maybe like doctor.

[Jim Sexton]

Yeah. People you should never lie to. Or your doctor and your lawyer. Because like everything you tell us, every single thing you tell us is protected by privilege. And there's absolutely our only jobs to protect you.

[Mark Gagnon]

How do you do that in the beginning? So you're sitting down with somebody and you could tell they're being a little fugazi about the information. How do you just go, dude, you're going to screw yourself if you don't tell me where the fucking bodies are buried?

[Jim Sexton]

I literally say that.

[Mark Gagnon]

Okay?

[Jim Sexton]

I mean, I, like, I don't pull any punches on it. Like I very much. But what I, what I usually will say to them just to kind of like take it to a place that they can understand is I'll say, look, I just want, at the beginning of this relationship, I want you to understand I represent people who've been victims of domestic violence. I represent perpetrators of domestic violence. I represent people who are, by any objective standard, amazing parents. And I represent people who just want to put the kids in the middle for leverage, for child support purposes. And I am no one's moral compass. I'm a weapon. And a weapon in the hands of a hero, right, is going to protect people and a weapon in the hands of the villain is going to cause chaos. But the weapon is of neutral. Right.

[Mark Gagnon]

What's the worst person you've defended?

[Jim Sexton]

Who? I can't. I mean, obviously a lot of my clients, I can't disclose who they are.

[Mark Gagnon]

Except not, not in. Absolutely.

[Andrew Schultz]

What do they do?

[Mark Gagnon]

But like, what did they do?

[Jim Sexton]

Oh, I've represented people who are, you know, by any objective metric, are, are, you know, malignant narcissists. I mean, so unfortunately, the traits that make people very successful, particularly in high finance, which is what New York is really like. My colleague Laura Wasser is in la. She represents like every celebrity you've ever seen. Yeah, I represent a lot of people in finance.

[Mark Gagnon]

It's a different type of business.

[Jim Sexton]

You could buy those celebrities 10 times over, but would walk past you on the street, you never knew who they were.

[Mark Gagnon]

Would you represent any current or former.

[Jim Sexton]

President by any chance? No. No presidents yet. Yeah, no presidents yet. They all seem to keep it together. Right. Clinton. I got my fingers crossed.

[Andrew Schultz]

How do you know Obama?

[Mark Gagnon]

Maybe Real quick Because I don't want to get away from that. The reason why I was asking that question, like, the worst person you've represented, talking to even before. You don't seem like a sociopath. Like, you seem like. And even watching videos of you, like, you seem quite empathetic. You have a lot of emotion. Right. I've seen you get sensitive in interviews, for sure. So I understand. And there's a lot of times this happens with, like, defense attorneys. You go, how could you. How could you represent this person?

[Jim Sexton]

It's a great question.

[Mark Gagnon]

So you're. You're representing sometimes scumbag.

[Jim Sexton]

Awful people. Yeah, awful people.

[Mark Gagnon]

Is there ever a moment where you're like, I can't fight for this guy?

[Jim Sexton]

No.

[Mark Gagnon]

Because real quick, just a caveat.

[Jim Sexton]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

This guy abuses his kids, or this woman abuses her kids, and by fighting for custody, I'm enabling the abuse of those kids.

[Jim Sexton]

Yeah. So. So you have that thought. Like, so. So, first of all, yes, I'm. I'm. I'm a sensitive person. I don't think I could do this job well if I wasn't. Because to do this job well, it's just like. I think it's like being a comic. I think you have to have a sensitivity. You have to be able to read what's going on with this audience, and you have to know what's working, what's not, and be able to shift. Right. So it's the same exact thing. It's just my audience is a judge, so. And I'm really here. Like, our job's the same. We're here to manipulate people's emotional states. That's our job. Like, your job is to manipulate people. You want them to laugh, relax, and enjoy. I want the other side to be scared. I want my client to feel safe. I want the judge to like my client and hate the other side. So I'm here just manipulating everybody's emotional state. And to do that, well, I have to be very open, receptive, empathetic, and sensitive.

[Mark Gagnon]

Got it.

[Jim Sexton]

The downside of that is, yeah, I'm sensitive. I'm feeling a lot. I feel a lot.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

I represent the client, but I also represent the system. And I don't always believe in the client, but I believe in the system.

[Mark Gagnon]

Give me an example of that. Where those.

[Jim Sexton]

I was talking about it on Mark's show some time ago. You know, I represented a guy who was a pimp. Like, literally a pimp. That was his job. Like, he actually was. You know, I mean, he had other. He's in federal prison. Now for guns. But he, he was an atrocious human being. He was an abuser. He was. And I was up against an adversary who was an unskilled attorney. And very like, it was all this woman could afford. And I absolutely ran her over. And we walked out of court and the guy pat me on the back and he said, Man, one good lawyer is worth 20 stick up men. And I just remember thinking, like, I want to go home and just take a shower right now, because that just feels dirty. But so you do have that.

[Mark Gagnon]

I've always wondered if lawyers had that feeling.

[Jim Sexton]

Of course, of course.

[Mark Gagnon]

And then, and then can you compartmentalize that? I think you have and move on?

[Jim Sexton]

I think you have to. Because look, what I. What I'll tell you is the truth has a way of coming out sometimes. Despite my best efforts, me laying that guy. Well, that's what ended up happening with that guy. He ended up in federal prison. I mean, I think the truth has a way of coming out. I have to tell my clients that sometimes, like, look, I can throw up a lot of smoke and mirrors, but shit comes out. Like the truth comes out.

[Mark Gagnon]

I have so many questions. I'm sure everybody else does, but very exciting. Okay, so there's this thing with lawyers where like a lot of times our engagement with lawyers is usually during maybe the worst times in our lives, right? So the connectivity that we have with lawyers is like, it's pretty abysmal. Right? But when you need help and a lawyer is helping you, they are heroic, as you just said. And you've seen like TV shows that talk about, like, Lincoln Lawyer was a great movie with Makani. Now they have this TV show where the lawyer is protecting the innocent that are wrongfully accused, et cetera. Like, you've seen it with Joe Pesci.

[Andrew Schultz]

And My cousin Vinny.

[Mark Gagnon]

My cousin Vinny and that kind of stuff. Suits are there. Suits, are there ever moments where you get to be the hero? And what does that feel like?

[Jim Sexton]

That feels amazing. That's intoxicating.

[Mark Gagnon]

Give me an example of like somebod you protected. It was like a woman who was being kids.

[Jim Sexton]

I give you a great one. I'm a dog person. I love dogs. So I had a woman come in and she said to me, described this situation of coercive control, domestic violence. She'd been in for ages. And this guy was controlling, abusive in the worst possible ways, like insidious ways, but also was an incredibly charming narcissist. So no one would ever suspect if you said to anybody, this guy Was an abuser, they'd be like, him, he's the nicest guy. Are you kidding me? And she told me her story. She said, I'm afraid nobody's gonna believe me. He said to me, no one will ever believe you. I'll make sure you're penniless. I'll do whatever I have to do to crush you. And I'm listening to this and I've handled a lot of domestic violence cases before. So I was like, okay, look, the system has a way of sorting these things out, and let's talk about what we can prove and what we can't. And she said, you know, I have something. She said, we have a puppy. We have a six month old black lab puppy. And the ring camera of our doorbell caught him just beating the shit out of this six month old puppy. And I was like, and you have that footage? And she was like, yeah. And I was like, okay, like, give me everything you have and I'll take a look. And I sat there that night and I watched this footage. And as a dog lover, like, I. I was shaking. I mean, it was to listen to it, to hear it, like, to watch this guy just beating this puppy. And the puppy, like, is a puppy. Its tail's wagging, it's trying to, like, kind of get away from him. And like, it doesn't understand what's going on. And I just remember looking at it and thinking, like, I'm gonna torture this fucking guy to death. And I called her the next day and I said, I'll take your case. And she was like, well, I'm worried. I can't afford you. I'm like, I'll cut my hourly rate in half. I was like, I just want a piece of this fucking guy. No pro bono, pro bon. He didn't kill the dog. Dog's all right. Yeah, dogs forget. I gotta eat.

[Mark Gagnon]

Okay.

[Jim Sexton]

Oh, no.

[Mark Gagnon]

Okay. All right, so how did you torture.

[Jim Sexton]

Sorry, that just shook me a little bit. It's worse than the memory of the dog. For free? Yeah, free. God. Jesus. I cut my rate in half, guys. That's impressive. That's only like 500 bucks, you know, that's pretty good. So I took on the case and, you know, it was like a professional hit. Like, I got this guy thrown out of his house. I got. I mean, it happened to get assigned to a judge who I knew liked dogs, who had a court attorney who I knew liked dogs. So I just made a meal out of this, like you wouldn't believe. And I actually, when I got to the courthouse. I shouldn't say this in public, but I will. I'm close enough to retirement I can get away with it. I actually went up to the court officers who are, you know, the security for the building. They're armed, you know, And I said to him, by the way, this is because I had mentioned that there was this case coming in where I had video of this guy beating the dog. And you ever want to see, like, people's vindictive side come out, tell them somebody beat up a puppy. Like, I have to tell you people, like, a little old lady would be like, kill the motherfucker. So I said to the court officer, I said, listen, I said, this case is in today. They said, oh, that guy's today. I said, yeah. I said, and by the way, I said, if he and I ended up in the restroom at the same time together, he started whatever fight happened. And they were like. Like, absolutely. In fact, we heard him shouting at. I was like, thanks, man. You know, and. But sure enough, like, that was a case where that single piece of evidence.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

Was able to just neutralize his ability to go in and be charming because.

[Andrew Schultz]

You saw the real side of him talked about.

[Jim Sexton]

Exactly. And the more he went in trying to be charming as opposed to saying.

[Mark Gagnon]

Like, the more psycho he looks. Exactly.

[Andrew Schultz]

Sometimes you see a person, and that's. You can see in smaller examples, but that's such a crystal clear example of like, oh, everything you say is bullshit. This is you. This is you. And everything she says, I'm going to believe.

[Jim Sexton]

Well, and that's exactly what you say to the judge. Because I said to the judge, I'm like, now, judge, you know, for every cockroach you see, there's 50 in the walls. Like, we caught this on video.

[Andrew Schultz]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

Like, so this isn't the only time.

[Jim Sexton]

How many other times? Like, when was the camera not rolling in the last.

[Akash Singh]

And the next time I'm in court, it'll be another co. So just remember that for my case.

[Jim Sexton]

Specifically, that's like when Diddy did the apology video. But then the hotel video came out and was like, we looked at that.

[Mark Gagnon]

Apology video as such.

[Jim Sexton]

Bullshit.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah, you're a psycho.

[Andrew Schultz]

And this is in the lobby of the hotel. That's in the entrance of the house. We're not seeing what's actually happening behind closed doors. You know what I mean?

[Jim Sexton]

Perpetrators of domestic violence are, in my experience, like, they are. They're charming. Like, how else would they get victims? Like, the way you. You know, there are people that are great at love bombing. They're great at, like, convincing a person that, oh, my God, I would never hurt you. I care so much about you. And then when something happens, doing the whole, like, I'm so sorry that that happens, you know, I love you so much. It'll never happen again.

[Mark Gagnon]

It's really interesting because a lot of times when they're portrayed in, like, TV or film, they're these, like, drunken asshole scumbags.

[Jim Sexton]

No way.

[Mark Gagnon]

But there was that show. I don't know if it was Pretty Little Liars or something. Not Pretty Liars, the one that takes place in Silicon Valley. It had Nicole Kidman.

[Jim Sexton]

Oh, yeah, I know what you're talking about.

[Mark Gagnon]

The. The husband of Nicole Kitten was an.

[Jim Sexton]

Abuser and was a great portrayal of what they're.

[Mark Gagnon]

What they actually are. Like.

[Jim Sexton]

Yeah, yeah. Good looking, charming, successful, great with the kids.

[Mark Gagnon]

Like, all these things.

[Jim Sexton]

Well, because a lot of that, like, adjustment personality disorder, that, like, sociopath behavior, that ability to sort of blend into your circumstances, A. It makes people very effective in their professional lives because they can just go into whatever setting and be whoever they need to be in that setting.

[Andrew Schultz]

I mean. Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

But in their home life, it turns into something that, you know, that's. That's chaos when you have to deal with those DV cases.

[Andrew Schultz]

I'm not going to say who, because it's not worth it. But we all know that at my wedding, the guy gave a speech, leveled the room. So funny, so charming. And then behind closed doors, it's just like, this is a monster. It's a whole different human being.

[Akash Singh]

You thought my speech was funny?

[Jim Sexton]

Yeah, it's funny.

[Andrew Schultz]

You think we're that close?

[Jim Sexton]

I'm going to be like this now.

[Andrew Schultz]

All right, guys, you also got to buy tickets. First of all, Columbus, Ohio, two shows have already sold out. The only two shows that have some tickets left are March 28th. Hurry up and buy those. Then I'm in Tampa from April 10th through the 13th. We got eight shows, but most of the tickets are already gone. I think there's. It's like five left at every show except April 13th, so buy tickets to that. April 17th through 20th. It's my favorite weekend of the year. No disrespect to any other city, but comedy works. Denver is probably the best comedy club in the country. Shouts to Wendy, but I'm gonna be there. 17th, 18th, and 19th. And then on 420, as always, we're doing a high show. Gummies, maybe shrooms. Who knows? All those dates and more@akash singh.com Also, man, there's some up things going on with Stand up in India. So just if you are, if you look like me, make some noise about it. If you don't live in India because they'll actually listen to us. If you're white, make some noise about it because India is dying for white people's approval. So just see what's going on and shouts to the Habitat Comedy club. Love you guys. Love you, Boraj. Let's get back to the show.

[Akash Singh]

What's up, guys? World's fastest ad read. Don't skip. Okay? I want everyone to come out to my shows on the road platonically, and don't do anything weird. I'm going to be in Bangor, Maine. I'm going to be in Portland, Maine.

[Mark Gagnon]

Hey, Maine.

[Akash Singh]

Suck his dick.

[Andrew Schultz]

Mine.

[Akash Singh]

I'm going to Charleston, South Carolina, Atlanta, Stroudsburg, Pennboke, in Indianapolis, Buffalo, Raleigh, Portland, Fort Worth, Austin, Stanford, Connecticut, Philadelphia, Levittown, Chandler, Arizona, San Diego, Montreal, Toronto, and Poughkeepsie, all on my website, themarkgagon.com. you can check it out. I think everything's on sale Friday or something. But I'll see you guys on the road. Love you.

[Jim Sexton]

Thanks. Bye.

[Akash Singh]

You had mentioned to me that you kind of enjoy representing bad people.

[Jim Sexton]

Oh, my God. I got pilloried for that, by the way. Did you really? Well, you put that clip up, and all of a sudden all the comments were like, look at this scumbag, you know, like, how dare you? Great job, Mark. Yeah, thanks a lot.

[Akash Singh]

You're a weapon.

[Jim Sexton]

You're a weapon. But I was like, you know, like, I'm sorry. You live in a democracy. Like, we have a system. Everyone's entitled to have counsel. And by the way, it's not like, like, up people come in and at the console go, listen, I'm a straight piece of. I've been meeting this woman for years, and I just need you to help me get out of it. Yeah, it's not how it works.

[Mark Gagnon]

They come in like a victim.

[Jim Sexton]

They come in and they're like, listen, she's crazy. She attacks me. And once I had, like, push her off me. And, yeah, she hit against the wall, but now she's gonna falsely accuse me of domestic violence. And you sit there and you're kind. And sometimes I'm in court.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

When I'm, you know, sitting my clients next to me and I realize, like, like, oh, shit, I've got the villain. Okay, all right. Like, that was not great, you know, because it's not surprising, like, when people tell you the story of Their life. They're usually the fucking hero of the story. Like, rarely do they come in and go, listen, I'm all fucked up. It's one of the few things that, like, standups, I think, do very well. Cause they come in and just go, I'm so fucked up. You know, most people come in and just go, like, oh, listen, I'm wonderful. I'm great. And then you sort of learn progressively, and you start to look at their talent. Text messages. And also, dude, there's like human growth too. Like who you were 10 years ago and who you are now. I had a client once who was a custody case about like a 10 year old.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

And when. When the woman was pregnant, when the mother was pregnant. So 11 years earlier, he had sent her all these text messages saying, because they'd been dating for like two months, like, you need to get an abortion. I don't want this baby. If you have this baby, I want nothing to do with it, you know. And of course, he'd been for 10 years, a phenomenal father. Loves us. And the other side, in our exchange of discovery, you have to, like, you know, share all your ammunition in advance. Because it's not supposed to be trial by surprise. They. They sent me these text messages real quick.

[Mark Gagnon]

So everybody understands that is that like, all the information that both lawyers are going to use in court has to be shared with both lawyers.

[Jim Sexton]

Exactly right.

[Mark Gagnon]

So no lawyer is going, ah, but you didn't see this.

[Jim Sexton]

Exactly right. So anything you're going to put in, like photographs, audio recordings, video, you have to exchange it in advance.

[Mark Gagnon]

That's called discovery.

[Jim Sexton]

It's called discovery y. And it's a process where it's meant so that everyone has the opportunity to, like, review something, make sure it's authentic, have it reviewed by experts if they need to, and also have a rebuttal, prepare their case as best they can. You're not allowed to, like, trial by surprise. Did you order the code red? It doesn't really work that way. Like, what you have to do is you have to exchange the stuff. So they'd sent these text messages and my attitude was, okay, we got to get in front of this. Like, we got to like, Eminem, 8 mile, final rap battle. Like, I got to go in and like, cover this and be like, now tell these people something they don't know about them. You know, like, I got to do something with it. So that's exactly what I did. I put him on the stand and I said, you know, you see these text messages? You know, did you send these texts. He said, yeah. And I said, is that how you felt at the time? He was like, yeah. And I was like, how do you feel when you read those text messages now? And this guy legitimately started crying on the witness stand. And he was like, I'm so. He's like, I'm so mad at myself.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

He's like. And I'm so horrified. And I'm so, like, if she'd listened to me, yeah. I wouldn't have my son, like. And he's like, I. But I. But I know. I was like, just stupid and scared. And I'm watching opposing counselors crossing out whole pages because we got in front of it, you know, but that is, like, what happens.

[Mark Gagnon]

And that's also like a more human, relatable moment. Like, it is terrifying, I imagine, when somebody gets somebody pregnant and they're not aware of it, they don't know what to do, and that's this knee jerk reaction. And you sound horrible. And then you have 10 years with the most amazing thing you've ever created, and you were just so embarrassed that, that, like, you could have made one flippant decision that eliminated those 10 years.

[Jim Sexton]

Well, and that's what, that's why you people say, like, representing good people and bad. Like, if only we could just put people in boxes of good people and bad people and just separate them. But, like, you know, the line of good and evil runs right through the human heart. So I think at the end of the day, what you have to say, like, if I judge your husband being a husband, your ability to be a husband by your best moment as a husband, you're a phenomenal husband. If I look at the worst moment you've ever had as a husband, and that's the totality of you.

[Andrew Schultz]

I'm bottom five.

[Jim Sexton]

That's not how it works. You kind of have to advertise.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's. That's an interesting thing too, because I imagine in divorce or in an argument or in anything, the only thing that we're focusing on are the worst moments of that person's life. So I'm sure the husband and the wife in those circumstances are just judging them by the most horrible things that they've done. When in reality there's probably amazing memories. I'm not talking about domestic violence people. I'm talking about people that had a marriage and then it became loveless, and they're like, let's separate. And now it gets contentious over kids or assets. But again, you're just focusing on These horrible things. Not a beautiful vacation you guys went to. Not a great time. You guys cooked dinner together. Together. The laughs, like. And again, maybe this doesn't make you enough money, but is there ever not enough money? But is there ever a moment, like in divorce where both lawyers are going, hey, should we try These people don't hate each other. Nobody did something heinous. How can we not prolong this?

[Jim Sexton]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

Do you guys do that at all or not?

[Jim Sexton]

100%. The best of us absolutely do that. Like, this is a rep. Like, you live and die by reputation in this business. And if you're the kind of person that just exacerbates conflict, you don't last long in this, because why?

[Mark Gagnon]

It looks like you're just trying to milk it. And then the lawyers get rich, and.

[Jim Sexton]

Everybody else and your client leaves with a really bad taste in their mouth because they start. They see, amplifying. Like, my job very often is to protect people from the part of themselves that's feeling brokenhearted and vindictive. Like, people come in and they're like, I caught him fucking his secretary. I want to rip his nuts off. I hate. Like, I want to kill him. And my job is to go, look, you have every right to feel the way that you feel, but let's. Let's focus on the issues right now. Like, you're going to have grandkids with this person someday. You're stuck with him.

[Mark Gagnon]

You're gonna see him for the rest of your life, no matter what.

[Jim Sexton]

Like, I have an ex wife. Trust me. I gotta sit next to her at graduations. I gotta sit next to her. What? Like, it's what you do. So you have to learn how to interact with this person. And you try to say to them, look, most people. The good news is most people love their kids more than they hate their ex. Like, most people's love for their children is the most powerful thing they have. I mean, I know we've got. You know, we've got two relatively new fathers here, you know, So, I mean, the truth is that that is a powerful emotion that very often will make you put down a lot of other stuff. And so it really turns into something where my. Our job is to try to bring out the angels of people's better nature. So I always tell clients, like, in a. In a negotiating table, in a courtroom, I'm a weapon. My job is to just go at a person and attack and do that.

[Mark Gagnon]

But before you get there, when the.

[Jim Sexton]

Door is closed, it's me and Michael. My whole thing is Look, I'd rather you pay her than pay me. Like, stand down. Like, let's not do this. Put your kids through college, not mine. Like, let's figure out how to do this the right way. If I get a sense when I do a consult with somebody that they have any chance that they could go to a mediator instead of using lawyers and they could sit, I'll send them right to a mediator. I probably send two, three cases a week to mediators.

[Mark Gagnon]

Is that the. What is, like, the process?

[Jim Sexton]

Yeah. Well, there's a lot of paths up the mountain, but the ideal process is two people sit down and they map out, what do you want to do with the kids? What's going to make sense. Like, well, you work this night, I work this night. So you'll have the kids this night or that night. Ideally, people could sit down at the kitchen table with a piece of paper and just map it out. But second best is you go to a mediator, that's a person who's usually an attorney or an accountant who's trained, who knows what issues to talk about, and they walk through it with you, and they'll say, all right, here's the things we have to decide. And they don't represent either person. They represent both people. In a sense, the next step from that is you get two attorneys that work collaboratively, that just don't come at each other, don't try to vilify either side, and just try to work, you know, come up with identifying assets, valuing them and how to divide them, figuring out what's going on and just doing it that way. The thing I've got very good at over the course of 25 years is the warfare part of it, like the courtroom. So the people that come to me now tend to be people that have that complex case.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

And they need someone who knows how to do that particular set of skills, which is why I have all of these amusing anecdotes of, like, chaos. But the truth is, like, the majority of divorce lawyers, it's really just about a negotiation. It's about trying to sort of, you know, work with people in a way that doesn't amp up the context.

[Andrew Schultz]

Yeah, 56% of people get divorced. It can't be 56% warfare.

[Jim Sexton]

No, it's actually, thankfully, a really small percentage.

[Andrew Schultz]

That's right. Figure.

[Jim Sexton]

But. But, you know, the outliers, like. Like, very few people can just, like, hold hands, sing Kumbaya, and, like, write it down and solve it. Very few people go to war. But you hear about the war. Because a. It's way more fucking interesting. Like, if I'm. If I. I don't get invited a lot of parties, but if I'm at a cocktail party and someone says, what do you do? I said, I'm a divorce lawyer. And they're gonna go, oh, my God, you must have stories. And if I said, I do. There was this couple, and they were married, and then they slowly grew apart from each other. So they decided how they would, like, amicably resolve their different differences financially and they share their time with the children. They'd be like, that's the worst story. Like, they want to hear the like, no. And then he took a chainsaw and he cut the car in half. Yeah. And they said, pick which half you want. You know, like that story.

[Mark Gagnon]

By the way, what is your. Yeah, let's go there. What is your craziest divorce?

[Jim Sexton]

Well, I mean, the guy ran the lady over and stabbed her 16 times.

[Andrew Schultz]

Yeah, fun crazy.

[Jim Sexton]

Yeah, fun crazy.

[Mark Gagnon]

No, it doesn't have to be fun. Just absolutely insanity. You're involved in this case. You're like, what the fuck is happening?

[Jim Sexton]

Yeah, I mean, well, I've had ones where, like, there's a lot of cash involved. So I had one where they. Over the years, guy was a dentist, and he took a lot of cash. And what he used to do is he used to wad it up in, like, these round things and then fill tennis ball cans with cash. And then they had a Jacuzzi in the backyard, and he lined the Jacuzzi thing with these tennis ball cans.

[Andrew Schultz]

Wow.

[Jim Sexton]

So there was like $800,000 of cash in the lining of the Jacuzzi. And I actually in an expert to testify to the. The size of the Jacuzzi and the size of how much could be held in the tennis cans to ascertain what the value of the money that he had then removed from the Jacuzzi was.

[Mark Gagnon]

When he took it out.

[Jim Sexton]

Took it all out. And he was like, what money? I don't know what you're talking about.

[Mark Gagnon]

There's one proof of it, you know.

[Jim Sexton]

So that kind of stuff is, like, always an interesting, bizarre puzzle. But, yeah, I mean, people are constantly cutting in half. I mean, the ones that. The ones that shock me are the people who come in and they've. And by the way, like, Apple, like Apple technology is responsible for more divorces than they. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Andrew Schultz]

That's real discovery right there.

[Jim Sexton]

Yeah. Like, sorry, shots fired. Steve Jobs. I'm sorry, Tim Cook's gonna. Like, my iPhone's gonna stop working now. Love your products. Don't do that to me, man. But the truth is, like, there's the whole integration of the different devices. Like, a lot of people don't realize, like, your fucking text messages are coming. The iPad that your kid's playing.

[Mark Gagnon]

Oh, wow.

[Jim Sexton]

And then your wife, like, you're upstairs texting with the girlfriend about, like, it was so great last night, you know? And then the kid is like, bing, bing, bing. And mom comes over, like, what's going on? They're like, I don't know. The. The cartoon stopped, and mom's like, what is this? And all of a sudden, there's naked pictures of the girlfriend, and she's reading in real time, you know? And this happens, like, once a week. I get one of these. Okay.

[Mark Gagnon]

Question about. About that. Do you think those people are just at the point where they're okay getting caught? Because that seems so foolish.

[Jim Sexton]

Yeah, I. I ask myself that question a lot because sometimes people are so brazen that it's just like, you kind of go, yeah.

[Andrew Schultz]

On some level, subconsciously, you're like, I.

[Jim Sexton]

Mean, you know, subconsciously, they're just cowards. They can't end it.

[Mark Gagnon]

And they're like, I just need some. If something does happen where it does end, I'm okay with it.

[Akash Singh]

But I don't quiet quitting.

[Jim Sexton]

Yeah. A lot of them feel. You know, Patrice O'Neill had it thing he used to say about one me over.

[Mark Gagnon]

Right?

[Jim Sexton]

He had a great thing about how he said, you know, cheating, if you think about it, is a man. He said, I. A man is leaving his home to get some happiness without hurting your feelings.

[Mark Gagnon]

Go to a girl behind a dumpster.

[Jim Sexton]

Right?

[Mark Gagnon]

Right. Like, get a little bit of happiness.

[Jim Sexton]

I think a lot of these without.

[Mark Gagnon]

Hurting your cheating is for you. For you.

[Jim Sexton]

Yeah. And I remember, like, hearing that and going, like. But, you know, when you spend enough time with people who've cheated.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

That's legit. How they. They're like, look, I love her.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah, I love her.

[Jim Sexton]

But we don't have that anymore.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

Like, we have this. Like, we're running a daycare center together.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

And, like, I love her. I like coming home to her. I like her mom. I like her brother. Like, we all get along. I like. I like all the stuff we do. I like our home. I like our life. But, like, I want to fuck sometimes. Like, I had a friend who once said to me, like, the moment, you know, you're in a relationship is when you're in the middle of sex and you Think one of these days I've got to get laid, you know? And I think that most married men do not acknowledge that this is correct. No, it's a bit, most married men, it's a bit, most married men will go, oh yeah, okay. Like I kind of get that, like the difference because again, I think there is something really true about you can't some of the freaky shit you want to do in your head blame pornhub, you know, it's, it's, it's on all everybody's heads. You're not going to do that with the person. But then you'll be like, okay, so which of us is going to bathe the kids now? Like that's not going to do that. So I think men sometimes move away from, from that kind of a connection with their spouse. And then they say, look, I don't want to hurt her. I don't want to sneak it in other places. I want to chase this shiny object. And by the way, like, I mean, how, look at how many half naked women we are exposed to on a daily basis thanks to Instagram and TikTok and everything else.

[Akash Singh]

So it's our fault really. We have to keep degrading the we love.

[Jim Sexton]

Is that, I mean, I don't think that's bad advice. I mean, so insofar as they at some point enjoyed that.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yes.

[Jim Sexton]

Like if they were, if, if you started out that way and they decided she might secretly be like, why don't you, you like, like a filthy slut anymore? Like I, I'm also a mom, but I'm also a filthy slut. I'm both.

[Akash Singh]

We can be both.

[Jim Sexton]

You can be both. I think you probably.

[Mark Gagnon]

So Mark, that's why our parents are still married.

[Jim Sexton]

Exactly.

[Mark Gagnon]

That's what it is.

[Akash Singh]

There's no Madonna war complex. You gotta just put them together.

[Andrew Schultz]

Your parents got eight kids. I could have told you they're doing.

[Akash Singh]

Some w. My dad always makes this comment, we'll be at dinner. He's like, you know, Amanda, you still got that nurse outfit? Everyone's like, dad, no way.

[Mark Gagnon]

Wow.

[Akash Singh]

He's like, I'm joking.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah, that's, yeah, that's interesting.

[Jim Sexton]

Yeah, cheating is one of those things. I mean, I, I, I joke that I got a PhD in cheating because you, you listen to people who've been cheated on. You listen to people who've done the cheating. But the people that I, I'm shocked by are the people that like they know their spouse is cheating. Like they had one of those imessage moments or they like the cameras catch stuff, all the little nest cams, security cams, the baby cams, nanny cams catch stuff. And they don't let the spouse know that they know it. And they're like three, four months in to like, like I, I watched this person having sex with their mistress on the nanny cam.

[Mark Gagnon]

Oh, Jesus.

[Jim Sexton]

And I'm still sitting across the table from them and I find myself thinking like, how the do you keep that?

[Andrew Schultz]

Yeah, you're the sociopath, actually.

[Jim Sexton]

Yeah, I see why that person cheated that. Yeah. How are you not like just losing your. On this person at all, you know, but people can.

[Mark Gagnon]

Why do you think kids usually or.

[Jim Sexton]

I think it's, I don't know, I think it's a combination of like if they say it out loud, it's real.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah. They're in denial.

[Jim Sexton]

Yeah. Sometimes people come into my office and like they have a very hard time. There's tissues on like every desk because people just, they having to say it out loud, you know, having to like say out loud like, yeah, this thing's broken, you know? Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

You also see why like sometimes it's forgivable for people. Like I think sometimes when you're like young and in a relationship and you don't have like children or anything like, like that and there's like a cheating thing, it's like the one thing you can't do.

[Jim Sexton]

It's like, well, I got to tell you, we're in modern society. Like what I will tell you is a lot more people come back from cheating than you'll ever know.

[Mark Gagnon]

So, so yeah, I'm interested to talk about that. Not for personal reasons at all. Nothing to do with it. But, but, but yeah, I feel like when you have X amount of kids, you have homes, you have a life that you guys all enjoy. And then when the husband does some cr. When the wife does it, I bet the dads are like this, it's over. But when the husband does some. I wonder if some of the wives are like, does he not have a relationship with her? Is it a one time thing?

[Akash Singh]

Well, it depends what the is right. It depends what you do well.

[Mark Gagnon]

And the question, what do you mean by that?

[Akash Singh]

Well, it depends on the nature of the infidelity.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah. If you get your dick sucked while you're in a. On a trip. Right boys or something like that. That's different than if you're like her friend in the community because now you're embarrassing her and there's this whole.

[Jim Sexton]

Well what I'll tell you, you know the difference between men and women is when a. A woman gets caught cheating, the man's first question is, did you him?

[Mark Gagnon]

Wow.

[Jim Sexton]

And the woman's first question is, do you love.

[Mark Gagnon]

Do you love her?

[Jim Sexton]

Because that's the, that's the distinction. And, and I will tell you in my experience, and again, don't pillory me for this one, guys. I didn't make up gender roles. I'm just observing what's sitting on the other side of the fucking desk. Yeah, but what. I'm not talking about you guys. I mean, the comments.

[Mark Gagnon]

What.

[Jim Sexton]

Which. The reality is that women are much more forgiving of those things because I think there is a part of them that goes, yeah, you're a fucking idiot.

[Mark Gagnon]

You're a guy.

[Jim Sexton]

Like, you're an idiot. You're a guy. Like, this had nothing to do with me.

[Mark Gagnon]

And this has so much to lose.

[Jim Sexton]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

That you losing so much. Whereas a man allowing his wife to cheat, he's lost his entire identity as a man.

[Jim Sexton]

But what's hard, I don't think a.

[Mark Gagnon]

Woman loses anything as a woman when we cheat because the expectation of us is we're a bunch of fucking idiots. Can't stop putting our dick and stuff.

[Jim Sexton]

Y.

[Mark Gagnon]

They spend the majority of their lives telling guys that they don't want to them. So when they do, you must have wanted that. The problem real quick, Bill Mar was I was doing this pot with Bill Mar. He had a. He had a funny idea and he was like. I often times hear female rappers say this thing, like, I'm going to steal your man. Like, I'm going to steal your man. And it's like, oh, no, that's the hardest. How the hell you stole me. Like, this is the easiest thing in the world. Like, hard task to do.

[Jim Sexton]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

Stealing somebody's girl is tough because you're taking away from a life.

[Jim Sexton]

Wait, that's why I've always said the whole thing of a hall pass.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

Is the dumbest deal in the world for men.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yes.

[Jim Sexton]

Because like, like, think about it. If I say, you know, all right with my girl, if I say to her, like, all right, we each have a hall pass. And she goes, okay, mine's Bradley Cooper. And I say, okay, mine is, I don't know, Angelina Jolie ever. The chances of him if I in the first class labs and I go, listen, just so you know, I have permission if you want to go have a little something. But the chances of like a guy being like, you know, she went, listen, I'm allowed to suck your dick right now. You'd be like, I got 10 minutes. It's never a good deal for the men.

[Mark Gagnon]

Well, because we take the wrong people.

[Jim Sexton]

I'm being ambitious, you know, camera set.

[Mark Gagnon]

Up like a JetBlue flight attendant, and then some gay guy would take hits. And you're just like that. That's the one who I'm gonna achieve.

[Jim Sexton]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

That's something attainable.

[Jim Sexton]

Yeah. But it really is one of those things that I think with women. What I do feel bad for women about is the women who have been cheated on. They've said, okay, you know what? I'm gonna look past this family. We have kids and stuff like that. No, what I actually feel bad is that how other women. They have to suffer in silence. Because if they told any of the women in their life, I'm taking him back. Back. They would be excavated. They would be destroyed. Like, you ever want to read vitriolic comments?

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

Any woman, like, who takes back a man who cheated on her, Like, Beyonce got way more than Jay Z.

[Mark Gagnon]

She had to put out a whole.

[Jim Sexton]

Album because it had.

[Mark Gagnon]

Right.

[Jim Sexton]

She had to, like, beat him up somehow to have some redemption. And again, from other women, because women were like, how dare you take him? Because it has. She left him.

[Mark Gagnon]

That's.

[Jim Sexton]

So she'd have been the girl boss. She'd have been the. Yeah, you. He has no right to do that.

[Andrew Schultz]

Wouldn't that be the same for men, though? If a girl cheats and a guy takes her back? Wouldn't guys fucking.

[Jim Sexton]

You get pilloried for it? Yeah. I mean, so you have to suffer in silence. You have to not tell people that this happened. Which, by the way, it is a hard thing for people to come back from. Rebuild trust from. People do it all the time. People do it all the time. And usually what it is, they come into my office, they're like, I want to kill him. I want him out. I want to file tomorrow. And I have done this long enough that I'll go, okay, listen, if we want to do it on Monday, we'll still do it.

[Mark Gagnon]

But let's just happen.

[Jim Sexton]

Let's take a breath. Let's get our ducks in order. Let's. You know. And usually a couple days later, they'll call me and they'll say, you know what? We. We talked. And then we're going to go talk to someone. We're going to go to a counselor. And very often I never hear from that person again. And I think that they figure out a way to navigate if. Kids make a difference.

[Andrew Schultz]

Kids make huge, massive difference.

[Jim Sexton]

You have I mean, look, you have a tremendous reason to keep it together. If you have children, I mean, you're fully going in best case scenario, you're going to lose a huge chunk of time with your children. You're going to lose the support of a co parent. I, I mean, it's difficult to raise a child with two people. It's difficult with one person. It's incredible.

[Mark Gagnon]

It's almost impossible. Dude, it's. Unless you have help. I can't believe it.

[Jim Sexton]

Yeah, it's very challenging. So I think that people have. The more skin you have in the game, you know, like, that's why I always say, like the ultra people say like, oh, it must be really hard representing like super wealthy people. I'm like, no, they have enough money to buy another fucking house and another apartment and another place in the Hamptons. So they each have one and they have nannies that travel between both places. So there's stability for the kids.

[Mark Gagnon]

Sometimes they keep, keep the kid in the same house and the parents nesting.

[Jim Sexton]

Yeah, the parents. The kids have the nest so the.

[Mark Gagnon]

Kids never have to leave, which is really awesome.

[Jim Sexton]

The parents each get an apartment and they kind of come back and forth with the kids.

[Akash Singh]

Oh, wow.

[Jim Sexton]

You know, look.

[Mark Gagnon]

But that's an ex. Like a huge privilege how many people can own a free home.

[Jim Sexton]

Like it's.

[Mark Gagnon]

But that is probably the best for the children because now they're not packing a bag literally every single week.

[Jim Sexton]

You know what I'll tell you is we don't know who discovered water, but it probably wasn't a fish.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

Like when a kid grows up in an environment where mom was here, dad was here, and I spent time, time with each, that's just all they know. Like, okay, that's how it was. Like when a kid's 10, 11, 12, and suddenly mom and dad who were living together are living in different places. That's traumatic, that's challenging. But if you're a little, if you're a 2 year old and now it's like, okay, dad lives here, mom lives here. And I spent. When you ask that person when they're in high school, like, what was your childhood like? They'll say, like, I don't know, like it was, yeah, I live with mom sometimes, dad, sometimes I spend time with both of them.

[Mark Gagnon]

It's also, if you grew up in like New York City where, where divorce is pretty popular, it's probably easier for you to do. But I agree with you. The kids can be absolutely destroyed if it happens. When they're a little Bit older, a little bit smarter and aware of what's going on. And I see a lot of divorce where the kids are kind of being used as a leverage tool. That's really fucked up. Is there ever time where you step in, you go, why are we punishing children?

[Jim Sexton]

I try to do that a lot. What I always say is that the person who cares less about the children has tactical advantage in a custody proceeding. Wow. In the same way that a bank robber has tactical advantage over the cops because they can shoot innocent bystanders. Like, the cops can't just spray with a machine gun and hope they'll hit one of the robbers. But robbers can just spray and hope they hit the cops. Like they can run over the sidewalk or how they can't do that.

[Mark Gagnon]

How would that work in a court proceeding, for example?

[Jim Sexton]

By insidiously alienating a child from their co parent. By injecting into the child a dislike or a fear of your co parent so that you get custody. I mean, by the way, most of the time this isn't just done as a vindictive thing. It's also done for financial reasons. Because if you have the children more than 50% of the time, you get child support. And that's a big chunk of money. New York State, one kid, 17% of your gross income. Less FICA. Two kids is 25%. Three kids 29%. Four kids, 31%. So like the percent of your gross income.

[Mark Gagnon]

Think about that before taxes. If you're spending 50% in taxes, like say you're some rich person, 31% is going to your wife and the children.

[Jim Sexton]

Four kids.

[Mark Gagnon]

If you have four kids, and only if she gets them 51% of the time.

[Jim Sexton]

Right.

[Mark Gagnon]

You still gotta provide for your life.

[Jim Sexton]

It'd be a lot cheaper to just hire a nanny and fight for custody. And that's what ends up happening.

[Akash Singh]

And there's alimony that goes along with that.

[Jim Sexton]

There can be spousal support goes along with that.

[Mark Gagnon]

But think about. So if it goes to 50% and you hire the nanny.

[Jim Sexton]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

At 51% to 50%, there's no real difference in the amount that you're going to see your children, but the difference in the amount that you're giving to that woman.

[Andrew Schultz]

Massive.

[Mark Gagnon]

Who now you hate and hates you. You.

[Jim Sexton]

Wow. And by the way, there's no one like doing an accounting to make sure it's spent on the kids.

[Mark Gagnon]

That's the other.

[Jim Sexton]

Sometimes it's like that was meant to be for the kids and it was used for the tit job or it was used for, like, sex toys with a new boyfriend. And how is that decided? Who gets custody? In New York, we have what's called the best interest standard, but most states have some variation of that. And it's as subjective and crazy as you'd think it is. Like, like it's, it really is full contact storytelling. Like, you go in as a lawyer and you just have to try to tell the story of why your client is stable, consistent, reliable, and a good parent, and why the other side is less than and why. This may be a New York thing, but I always hear that the mother always gets the custody. Yeah, I mean, that's a pretty common misconception. And I understand why people say that, because I think women fight much harder for custody than men do. And I'll tell you why, like, and I probably don't even need to, but I'll point out can't. If you and I. All right, if, if, if we meet in real life, we're just out in a bar and you say to me, so, Jim, tell me about yourself. And I say, well, you know, I'm a lawyer, I'm divorced. I have my kids, they live with their mom. Every other weekend I have them. You'd go, oh, divorced dad, nice guy, probably, you know, I'm a woman.

[Mark Gagnon]

You don't have those kids.

[Jim Sexton]

I have two kids, they live with their dad. I see them every.

[Mark Gagnon]

What the is wrong with her?

[Jim Sexton]

Social pr, mental health. And by the way, like, I mean, go on Instagram, mom life, like, believe me, like, I've represented some, some co parents of celebrities that like, these people are opioided out of their minds. But when it's time to take that kid out like a Birkin bag, you know, they bring them out and they're like, I'm a mom. And then they're like, back to all right, take this kid away. You know, and they care less. But it's optics, you know, Whereas for a man, if you go, yeah, the kids live with their mom, people go, oh, yeah, well, of course kids live with their mom. So that's where I think that comes from. But the truth is, like, men get custody all the time. The maternal presumption was eradicated years ago. There used to be something called what was called the tender years doctrine, which was if a child was under the age of seven, you let the mom mom automatically got custody unless you could show she was an unfit mother. That was eradicated in the 1980s. But, you know, some of the judges, like, have been around since then, so they remember that. And judges remember judges are human like judges are people. So they have the same biases anybody else has. So sometimes he's. The judge is a divorced dad who's like dads are just as good as moms.

[Mark Gagnon]

What the.

[Jim Sexton]

Sometimes they're a pissed off ex wife of somebody and they're like that guy cuz they're taking out, you know, these are humans.

[Mark Gagnon]

All right guys, we take a break for a second. I got some absolutely incredible news. Okay, all you Call of Duty War Zone fans out there, the weight is finally over. No, you're not going to get Verdansk is back on April 3rd. Okay, the iconic map you all know and the love is returning to Call of Duty Warzone. Experience all the chaos and relive the thrill that you've been missing. It's the return of the map that started it all with iconic pois like superstore, hospital, prison and more. Whether you're an OG Call of Duty Warzone fan or dropping in for the first time, Verdansk is ready to bring you the action. Gather your squad and get ready for intense battles and iconic landmarks. Experience new gameplay updates and the return of Verdansk era weaponry. This is the moment you've been waiting for and it's going to be epic. Download Call of Duty Warzone for free and drop in a Verdansk on April 3rd. That's www.callofduty.com Warzone flagrant. It's rated M for mature. Let's get back to the show. All right, guys, let's take a break for a second. It's something I've been talking about a lot, not only on this pod and other pods as well. Well, but it is the importance of understanding how to invest in the market. By invest in the market, I mean doing it long term, not this gambling thing that a lot of people are doing online right now trying to predict stocks. You're trying to beat hedge funds that have, you know, billions of dollars of fiber optic cables around the world so they can get a millisecond advantage on a trade over you. But what you can do is invest in American industry and you can invest in these businesses and over a long period of time, you can make some incredible gains and you can change your future, your parents future or your kids future. Acorns is a financial wellness app that helps you take control of your money with simple tools that make it easy to start saving. Investing in your future. You don't need to be an expert. Okay. Acorns will recommend a diversified portfolio that matches you and your money goals. You don't need to be rich. Acorns lets you get started with the spare money you've got right now. Even if all you've got is spare change. You can literally create an Acorn A account and start investing in just five minutes. Acorns will give you small simple steps to get you and your money on track. Okay, sign up now and join the over 14 million all time customers who have already saved and invested over $25 billion with Acorns. Plus Acorns will boost your new account with a $20 bonus investment. The offer is available at acorns.comflagrant that is a C O R-N-S.com flagrant F L A G R A N T to get your $20 bonus investment today. Also, this is a paid non client endorsement compensation. Provides incentive to positively promote Acorns Tier 2 compensation provided investing involves risk. Acorn Advisors LLC and SEC registered investment advisor. View important [e-mail] flavored and have you ever suggested that a client change their gender to have some sort of divorce?

[Jim Sexton]

No. You know I represented, actually I was one of the first people to represent a trans woman in a custody proceeding about 20 years ago ago.

[Mark Gagnon]

And were they divorcing themselves?

[Jim Sexton]

No, they weren't.

[Mark Gagnon]

They were, they were.

[Jim Sexton]

This was actually a really amazing story. I, I, I, this was like the most manly man I'd ever known. Like he was like the M.O. he was jacked, he was like a big dude.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

And he, he, I knew him because he'd actually done work on my house. And I remember thinking, because I was married at the time, I remember thinking my ex wife secretly wanted to him cuz he was like this big dude, work boots, the whole thing. So one day he calls me up.

[Mark Gagnon]

And he loves renovations.

[Jim Sexton]

He calls me, he's an interior decorator.

[Akash Singh]

But it doesn't matter.

[Mark Gagnon]

This a fixer up.

[Jim Sexton]

He made some significant changes. He calls me up one day, he says can I come in and talk to you? And I said yeah, sure. And I knew he was married and he had two very young kids. So he comes in, I'm like oh, he's probably having marital problems. Comes into my office. I said what's going on? He says look, I think we're splitting up. And did I say oh man, I'm sorry to hear it. I said what's going on? And he goes, what? Well, I've decided I want to live my life as a woman. I was like excuse me, this is 20 years ago. Like, this is not part of, like, the cadence. You know, this wasn't a thing. And this was not the dude. You would think. Like, there was nothing feminine about this guy. Like, I was way more feminine than this guy. And he was like. Like, yeah. You know, I've always felt this way. And I. You know. And he did. Sure enough, he transitioned pretty quickly. And like many people who transition, initially, he looked like a guy wearing a wig. Like, he looked like a dude who was. You know, he'd started hormones. And when we went to court, the judge actually issued a temporary decision saying that. That he was allowed to see his kids as long as he dressed like a man when he saw his kids. Now, if a judge did that, now they'd be thrown off the bench and possibly jailed for a hate crime. But back then, that was considered a perfectly acceptable resolution. Funny. P.S. to that story. But by the way.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

10 years later, I'm walking into the courthouse, and I'm standing there talking to one of my colleagues, and I look off to the far left, and I see a very attractive woman staring at me. And I'm thinking, like, you still got it sexy.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yes.

[Jim Sexton]

You know, it's the tie.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

And she's just smiling at me. So I'm like, do I know her? This is weird. So I finish this conversation. I kind of do the peacocking thing where I'm like, all right, man, catch you later. And I'm like, I'm going to walk past. So I walk up. Very cute. I said, hey, how you doing? She goes, good. How you doing? I go, good. She goes, you don't remember me? And I said, I'm sorry, I don't. I would think I would. And she goes, it's me, Amy. And I was like, amy? And she goes, andy. I went, holy shit. It was that. It was. It was that person. It was that with 10 years of hormones and a bunch of other things.

[Andrew Schultz]

Being hot as both genders seems unfair.

[Jim Sexton]

It really does, by the way. Like, could do great. Home renovations up.

[Akash Singh]

If you transition, you should introduce yourself again.

[Jim Sexton]

You should lead with that. Hey, by the way, I've done some updates. Yeah.

[Andrew Schultz]

If you did recognize a woman at.

[Mark Gagnon]

This point, if you didn't recognize her, you did a bad job.

[Jim Sexton]

Yeah, I guess so. But it just felt like, you know, I did feel a little deflated because I was like, oh, I got this hot. Checking me out. And then I'm like, oh, no. Okay. It's not for the reasons I thought. Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

Former.

[Akash Singh]

Former client.

[Jim Sexton]

You can't do that. Yeah. No, but then after.

[Mark Gagnon]

What's the weirdest way you've gotten paid?

[Jim Sexton]

A motorcycle. So I was given a motorcycle once. I had a client who said, you know, he, he used to like, fix up bikes. And I, I used to ride at the time. And he said, you know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna pay you. I just gotta sell this bike that I just fixed up. Oh, what bike is it? And is it any show being? I was like, I'll just take the bike.

[Mark Gagnon]

What about cash? Like just straight people try to pay.

[Jim Sexton]

Me in cash all the time.

[Mark Gagnon]

You say, no, I know I'll accept cash.

[Jim Sexton]

But I do tell them, like, there's rules about how we take cash and then we have to report it if it's over $10,000. But, oh, I've had people who come in with like $300,000 in cash, and they're like, can I just pay my bill with this? And when you say to them, yes, but I have to then report to the bank where I got it, suddenly they're like, no problem, I'll bring you a check. You know, okay.

[Mark Gagnon]

So you're by the book when it comes to payment.

[Jim Sexton]

You have to be as a lawyer. I mean, a lot of lawyers are.

[Mark Gagnon]

Wild west with that shit.

[Jim Sexton]

You know, he's got.

[Mark Gagnon]

Tired, he said, let it go. Banging outside of town to a hotel.

[Jim Sexton]

I'm in class here. I'm a cheap date. No, I, I, I feel like a lot of lawyers. What's interesting is if you read the disciplinary opinions for lawyers, it's really funny because they, they up lawyers and disbar lawyers for financial stuff really fast. Almost like you read that they publish these decisions. It's like runs chills through all, all of us. But you'll read it. And they're like, this lawyer had sex with three of his clients. He, you know, had a serious cocaine problem. And he told three of his clients the cases were resolved, when in fact they weren't, you know, suspended for two weeks from the practice of law. And they're like, this guy did not report $23 that he received in cash, disbarred. And you're like, fuck. Like the money thing is the biggest thing. So lawyers who play it fast and loose with that stuff, like you're not going to be around.

[Mark Gagnon]

Have you ever hooked up with any clients?

[Jim Sexton]

No. No. And I have to tell you.

[Mark Gagnon]

Have they thrown it at you?

[Jim Sexton]

No. For real.

[Mark Gagnon]

You never circled back after you got.

[Jim Sexton]

The good divorce, got paid? And I was like, yeah. I will tell you why. Because I'm trying to figure out how to say this without offending any of my existing clients. The truth is that if you represent a woman in her divorce, you will never want to date her.

[Mark Gagnon]

Like you see the worst of this person.

[Jim Sexton]

Like, like you know there's a good lie. I know that's a good lie. Almost believe that. There's a rule in New York, matrimonial lawyers are not. We're the only lawyers that are not allowed to have sex with our clients. It's a rule. Like, if you do a real estate closure for someone, you can fuck them. But if you're a divorce lawyer, a domestic relations lawyer, you cannot have sex with your client for six months after the representation is concluded. You should have said that.

[Akash Singh]

You should say legal.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah, we're saying circle the block.

[Jim Sexton]

Yeah, but I'm telling something. Whoever, whoever wrote that. Whoever wrote that rule.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

Was not a divorce lawyer because you don't even want to talk to these people, much less some of these, Some.

[Mark Gagnon]

Of these women too.

[Jim Sexton]

They, they have a hero thing they've put on you. Yeah. That is so unhealthy. It's first time sweat all.

[Mark Gagnon]

Can we take a break?

[Jim Sexton]

I can call my lawyer.

[Mark Gagnon]

Okay, so we know you've never declined, but hypothetically speaking, like, if you ever were to circle the block seven months later, eight months later.

[Jim Sexton]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

And like now that girl has tons of money that you won for her.

[Jim Sexton]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

And she's like, really grateful.

[Jim Sexton]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

What is, what would that be like, hypothetically? What is that head like, hypothetically speaking, like when I just gave her $100 million.

[Jim Sexton]

I mean, look, it'd probably be smiling. That'd be a lot of money. Yeah. And it's not, you know, I'm not in her. She's got enough money to do better than me at that point.

[Mark Gagnon]

No, no. But she's really grateful.

[Jim Sexton]

Yeah. I mean, look, they do. What I'll tell you is your female clients fall in love with you.

[Mark Gagnon]

They do.

[Jim Sexton]

But it's not you that they're in love with. You're their hero in this situation.

[Mark Gagnon]

Of course.

[Jim Sexton]

And, and so you, you have to have the presence of mind. Like, it's like when you're a college professor. Like, yeah, of course you got 20 something year old girls who are like coming to your office hours. Like they, and they're into you.

[Andrew Schultz]

Of course.

[Jim Sexton]

Course there's a part of your brain that goes, oh my God, are you kidding me? This is. But the truth is they, they think, you know, you don't know. They think that you're this genius person. You're just a person, like, so I. I really don't like. That's not. They're not in love with you.

[Mark Gagnon]

I think, like, 20 of them. You up.

[Jim Sexton]

Two decades.

[Mark Gagnon]

In two decades, you're at a bar.

[Jim Sexton]

You'Re drinking tatted up. I know, bro.

[Mark Gagnon]

You're a husband's worst nightmare.

[Jim Sexton]

I know some things.

[Mark Gagnon]

I know some things.

[Jim Sexton]

Well, here's what I'm saying. I know court clerk in Manhattan family court. She knows some stories about you.

[Mark Gagnon]

We do research on this podcast that's really wild. That was. He launched that one. Yo, look, that's how you get 50% off. It's never pro bono, but that's.

[Jim Sexton]

I'm gonna give you my car. Anything come over. It's lovely.

[Mark Gagnon]

But they should. If it's like a. Like a horrible divorce and you free this woman from this oppressive man, and then you take the majority of money, give it to him and the house and all this other stuff, and she can't just, you know.

[Jim Sexton]

But you got it in your head, too. I mean, see, like, in your head head, there's like, these super hot young women I'm representing who like, now have $100 million and want to me.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Andrew Schultz]

It's really, like, nothing about the money.

[Jim Sexton]

It's mostly, like, women in, like, their 50s with, like, they all got that New York, you know, like, surprise cosmetic surgery. And, like, this is not. Like, I could do better than that.

[Mark Gagnon]

What about somebody's second wife?

[Jim Sexton]

You know, like one of second wife prenup. If there's a. Yeah, they're smart enough to lock them in. As say to the three guys who.

[Mark Gagnon]

Are married and don't have freedom. Well, he's not married yet. Still hope for you. Should he get a prenup?

[Jim Sexton]

Of course he should. Have a fun. All three. All of you should have a prenup fun. Why no fun?

[Mark Gagnon]

Don't you like the risk of it? Like, every argument that you get in with your wife, you're like, man, half my. At the end of this argument.

[Jim Sexton]

Don'T you want to live on the weird definition? I'm Alex.

[Mark Gagnon]

Hond.

[Jim Sexton]

I'm climbing the side of the cliffs. Like, okay.

[Andrew Schultz]

I honestly do feel like if we get divorce, you take half the shit. Do I think I can't make more money? Like, go away. I'm paying you to go away.

[Jim Sexton]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schultz]

Here's half my.

[Jim Sexton]

Shut up.

[Andrew Schultz]

Yeah, I'm gonna go make more money, and then we're done.

[Jim Sexton]

Would it be even cooler, though, keeping.

[Andrew Schultz]

All that Andrew's whole goal is to have her make more money than me anyway.

[Mark Gagnon]

Who cares?

[Jim Sexton]

I mean, look, what. What I'll tell you is I. I mean, first of all, I don't think anybody wants their marriage to continue. Their spouse to stay in the marriage because they don't want to give up half their. That's like a bad incentive. Like you want someone to stay married because they want to be married to you, because they think you add value to their life, that they enjoy your company, that more often than not they're glad they're with you, whatever. Any number of justifications. But to say, well, I'm with him cuz I don't want to have to give away half.

[Andrew Schultz]

That's what Alex. He got broke boy mentality, terrible. He's got broke boy mentality.

[Jim Sexton]

He's like a.

[Andrew Schultz]

He's like a big child.

[Mark Gagnon]

So if I were to get a prenup, what should I include in it?

[Jim Sexton]

I think the easiest prenup is the one that I would encourage most people to have, which is. I call it the yours, mine and ours. If it's in your name, asset or liability, you keep it. If it's in her name, asset or liability, she keeps it. If it's in joint names, you split it 50.

[Mark Gagnon]

50.

[Jim Sexton]

That's it. Clean. Here's what I'll tell you. Everybody, you have, all three of you have a prenup. The government wrote it. Oh, the state legislature wrote your prenup. And by the way, like, you think that's a good idea, like you think. You ever been to the dmv? You ever walk into the DMV and go, these people should be in charge of everything? Like, they're great at it. This is really good. The reality is, is like, the government is the worst people.

[Mark Gagnon]

To whom, though? To whom?

[Jim Sexton]

Worse.

[Mark Gagnon]

To whom? To my wife or to me?

[Jim Sexton]

Both of you. Both of you. The prosecutors signed up. You've signed up for a rule set that you don't even know.

[Mark Gagnon]

I don't know.

[Jim Sexton]

But you. You bought a house. Yeah, right. You bought a house. You had to sign a HUD one. A lead paint disclosure. You got all this information about the loan. You got married. You can get a pamphlet. You just did the most legally significant thing you're going to do in your whole life other than die, and you have no clue what happened the first time. Big Dick.

[Mark Gagnon]

That's what it's called. That's what it's called.

[Andrew Schultz]

Big Dick.

[Jim Sexton]

Let me look at the documents.

[Mark Gagnon]

I don't even know what the house.

[Andrew Schultz]

More lead.

[Jim Sexton]

More lead. Trans. Translate. That to go into being like, I'm betting it all on black. How much? I don't know.

[Mark Gagnon]

All of it.

[Jim Sexton]

Go. I would do that. Crazy.

[Andrew Schultz]

I have lost quite a few bitcoins, so it is crazy. It is what it's about.

[Mark Gagnon]

It is crazy. 100%.

[Jim Sexton]

Because my attitude is, look, all kidding aside, every marriage has a prenup. It's either one that's written by the government or it's written by the two people that like each other theoretically more than the other 8 billion other options. Right, Right. So who is better to come up with a rule set than those two people? And that's all the prenup is. A prenup is just saying, look, you know, there's gonna come a time like. Like, if you get married, it's smart to say to your spouse when you're getting along still, yeah, babe, we're gonna get in a fight at some point. I promise. It's probably gonna be my fault. I'm gonna say some dumb. I say dumb. It happens.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

When we get in that fight, what should that look like? Do you need a minute? Should I give you some space? Like, if I force you to talk about it, is it going to turn into a whole, whole thing? Or do we need to take care of this now because you don't want to go to bed angry? Like, I want to know. Because the worst time to learn how to fight is when you're in a fight. Like, that's the worst time to learn how to do a fight. So that's all the prenup is. Prenup is saying, look, we're getting along right now. We have an abundance of goodwill between the two of us. If, God forbid, in the highly unlikely 56%, the highly unlikely chance that we would get divorce, what would that look like? And by the way, there's a way to say it that I think has a tremendous amount of big dick energy, which is to say, you know what? You're my woman. I want you to feel safe. Yeah. You can't feel loved unless you feel safe. And the way I want you to feel safe. The way I want you to feel safe is I want you to feel safe from everyone, including me. So what is. Well, I mean, to marry you.

[Mark Gagnon]

She's like, I got this simp.

[Jim Sexton]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schultz]

Actual question. Yours, mine and ours. How does that go? Once you're married, everything is just going to go ours.

[Jim Sexton]

Right?

[Andrew Schultz]

You're going to buy the house. It's going to be our name. You're going to buy the cars. It's going to be our name conversation.

[Jim Sexton]

You got to have like, look at you, you, you, you know, this is a married man. If you can't have difficult conversations with your spouse, don't get married. Like, like part of being married is having hard conversations, talking about tough stuff.

[Mark Gagnon]

Personally.

[Jim Sexton]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

Let's say you and your wife are both working. Wife decides to not work to raise the child.

[Jim Sexton]

Sure.

[Mark Gagnon]

Common. And maybe I'm telling you how I feel without asking you how you feel. But like there's a part of me that goes, okay, well anything, first of all, anything. I don't have a prenup obviously, so anything that we own as both of ours. But like I think that if she's going to make that sacrifice and that decision, I think she's entitled to half of everything.

[Jim Sexton]

Who would disagree with.

[Mark Gagnon]

Okay, good. Because I think there's sometimes people totally fair. Okay. And I think sometimes people are like, well, if you're making the money, that's all you. It's like, yeah, yeah. But you're able to do that because somebody's looking after the child. Now their circumstances, like your guys circumstances, they don't have a kid yet. Right. So like he's making money and you know, she, your wife could be making money. So he might have an argument to go, well, I'm gonna keep all of this. Cause you could be working. But I do think once you add children into the mix, there's a very different.

[Jim Sexton]

But I totally agree and I think any reasonable person would. But just to push back on that thought a little bit.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yep, yep.

[Jim Sexton]

What I would say to you is, okay, but there's got to be a stop loss somewhere in there. Right. Like there's got to be, there's got to be some sense of like what is that obligation? Because look, at the end of the day, we all owe each other things when we make decisions like this. Some ways, in some ways your. You wouldn't have the success you have if it wasn't for your wife.

[Mark Gagnon]

Absolutely.

[Jim Sexton]

She supported you, she's helped build. Okay. Absolutely. Your wife wouldn't be the person she is if it wasn't for her. Her mother.

[Mark Gagnon]

Sure.

[Jim Sexton]

So what do you owe her mother? How much?

[Mark Gagnon]

I think at least half.

[Jim Sexton]

Okay.

[Mark Gagnon]

Her mother wouldn't be the person she.

[Jim Sexton]

Was if it wasn't for her mother. We owe grandma.

[Mark Gagnon]

She needs half. Okay.

[Jim Sexton]

So the math on this gets a little fast.

[Mark Gagnon]

They all need half.

[Jim Sexton]

So the reality is everybody look, I think fundamentalism.

[Andrew Schultz]

Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

They need half of her value is an important thing. You know, I just watched Your special, you know, and I got a huge kick out, especially as a divorce lawyer. The shit we laugh at. But when you said the thing about, you know, like, we made a baby. We made a baby, and you're like, oh, just like, we made this money. Like, it's our money. Like, okay, look at the other day. We know you earn more than her, right? Okay, so we don't. Why do we have to be afraid to say that out loud? Like, marriage is an economy.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

That's not a dirty word. An economy is. We're exchanging value. We're giving and receiving. And an economy does not require that everyone gives and receives the exact same fucking thing. You can say like, Steve Jobs, Steve Wozniak. Without Steve Wozniak, Steve Jobs would have a lot of cool ideas he couldn't do shit with. And if it wasn't for Steve Jobs, Steve Wozniak would be a dude in his garage making shit, but have no vision. So together, they brought something to fruition. Same thing with the marriage. Does she get half? Does that really make sense? Half of everything.

[Mark Gagnon]

So there's no question whether what you're saying makes sense. I think the difficult emotional battle, which you've probably done thousands of times, is putting a dollar value on what somebody brings to the table in a marriage. Like, what is the dollar value you're worth for raising our kids? That's a really difficult thing to do.

[Jim Sexton]

It feels icky, but it only feels icky for reasons that I think we could fix as a culture, and that is that why can't we be honest? Like, I'm a fan of honesty. I'm a fan of just being. Just say a quiet part out loud.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

Like, you give me, like. Cause here's the problem. Here's the problem with modern marriage from a man's perspective, as far as I'm concerned, most of the marriages I know, okay, the man provides financially, he protects. Right. He, you know, he's also there to be part of the family dynamic. Taking care of kids, doing the things that he can do. What does the woman bring? She brings love, affection, a little bit of sweetness at the end of the day, you know, sex she brings. You know, taking care of kids. Okay. If you get divorced, every single thing on that side of the man equation, he can be compelled to do by the power of the state. And if he fails to do it, they can put him in jail. Nothing on that other side, the female side, is enforceable at law. The court cannot order her to be nice to you, to fuck you. To be a wonderful mother to your children. She can't. They can't force that. So when you have a contract where only one side of it is enforceable with the power of the state and the other side is not, my attitude is, why don't we then just have an honest conversation about, about what we could both be afraid of and what, what value we want to attribute.

[Mark Gagnon]

But the court can't force you to protect your wife, and the court can't force you to make.

[Jim Sexton]

Well, economically. They can force you to, they can force you to protect somebody. You can tell, like, I've had, I've had, you know, cases where the court says, okay, this person needs a security detail. If it's a celebrity, they say these kids are going to need security for when they go to school, things like that.

[Mark Gagnon]

But the average person, like, can the court say you have to work to a dad?

[Jim Sexton]

Well, what the courts say is Lincoln freed the slaves. Like, if you're a, you know, if you're a, if you're any. You notice I didn't look old. Like, I, like, jump right in on Lincoln, by the way. Big up. What does that mean? What does that mean? What, what I'm saying? What I, what I.

[Akash Singh]

The dude in court.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

You said her blood. She was like, so, so if, if you, if your financial status at the moment you were getting divorced determined what your obligations were, everybody quit their job the minute they were getting divorced.

[Mark Gagnon]

Right.

[Jim Sexton]

So what the courts say is like, if you're a brain surgeon who. Now I'm getting divorced. I decided I want to be a yoga teacher.

[Mark Gagnon]

Right.

[Jim Sexton]

The court goes, look like and free the slaves. We can't make you be a brain surgeon. You're just going to be a brain, you're going to be yoga teacher who has the financial obligations of a brain surgeon. So they impute an income to you and they'll say whatever you do for a living, it's fine. We can't force you to work, but we can give you financial obligations commensurate with your earning capacity, even if you're not earning at that capacity.

[Mark Gagnon]

Wow.

[Jim Sexton]

Which is actually really up sometimes. Yeah. Like, I had a client once who was an air traffic controller. And if you know anything about air traffic controllers, like, you can have a high school education, be an air traffic control, make like 3, 400 grand a year.

[Mark Gagnon]

Wow.

[Jim Sexton]

You can do really, really well. Well, this guy, his mother passed away. He was very close with her. He had a lot of anxiety and a lot of depression from it, and he had to go on on medication, psychiatric medication, to like, sort of deal with it. You're not allowed to be on benzodiazepines or certain psychiatric medications while you're in air traffic control. So he was terminated from his position. The next best job this guy could get, he made about 50 grand a year. But the court was like, no, no, you still got. Your earning capacity is 350,000 do. That's what you made. And we were like, judge, what job can this guy get where he's going to make that amount of money? So it can. Sometimes this is how guys end up in jail for not paying. It's not their fault.

[Mark Gagnon]

So what'd he do?

[Jim Sexton]

He. He suffered, basically. Yeah. I mean, he had a very unfair child support award placed against him. He ended up in jail a couple of times. It was a. Really?

[Mark Gagnon]

Because he was like selling drugs or something to make them?

[Jim Sexton]

No, he just was not. He didn't pay his support. It's illegal to not pay child support. You can be put in jail, but.

[Mark Gagnon]

You can't go back for a readjustment if you have.

[Jim Sexton]

We did. After a certain amount of time and then it was granted. Yeah, like it was. The judge sort of didn't buy that. This was not done intentionally. Like, we joke in our industry that, you know, we call it sudden income deficiency syndrome, that it hits like nine out of ten divorcing men. Like, guys are doing really great and then all of a sudden they're getting divorced and they're like, but this year's gonna be bad. I'm not gonna do well this year. Like, you work for Goldman Sachs. Yeah, but we're having a bad year, you know, so it happens a lot that judges tend to look at people and go, you know, something tells me that if you're saying you're suddenly not doing well financially and it happens to be when you're getting divorced, there might be a, you know, it's not a coincidence.

[Andrew Schultz]

So I hear about these guys who don't pay child support. You see that anecdotally, whatever. But then the saying I always hear is, well, courts are not in the collections business. So how do some guys seemingly not really pay, kind of be unfair, and then some guys, well intentioned, end up jail.

[Jim Sexton]

So courts, it depends on how bold the judge is. I mean, what I'll tell you is a big. I'll give you some free legal advice. If you ever have a child support obligation against you, which I hope you never do, and you have to pay it and you don't have the money to pay it like if you're supposed to give her $2,000 a month and you don't have $2,000, don't give her a thousand dollars. Give her $1,226.37. Because then when we get in front of the judge, we can say, judge, I had a thousand dollars. I borrowed $200 from my cousin. I found $32 under the, the mats of my car. This is everything I have. Because what people do is if you gave a thousand, why didn't you give a thousand and one? If you gave 1500, like a round number, it just looks like you're full of, you know, so. But yeah, I mean, look, we, we. Courts don't always, you know, again, because judges are human. There are some judges, they will put you right the. In jail. I've had clients let off in orange, you know, where the judge says, look, you got a week to pay this child support. And if you, you don't bring a toothbrush when you come back to court, I'm putting you away. And they'll put some. They'll lock guys up. They have what's called weekend jail, where on Friday after work you check in and you stay in jail until Monday morning and then Monday morning so you can work and pay your child support. Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

Why. Why does alimony exist?

[Jim Sexton]

That's a great question.

[Mark Gagnon]

This. Yeah, I get child support, I get splitting of assets. I get.

[Jim Sexton]

You ever want it?

[Andrew Schultz]

You ever want.

[Mark Gagnon]

Wanted real quick?

[Jim Sexton]

You ever want to take a feminism out of a woman?

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

Make her pay alimony, dude.

[Mark Gagnon]

I think one of the coolest things in the White Lotus episode, they have these, these three different girls that make up this girl group. It. It's phenomenal. And each is an archetype of a.

[Jim Sexton]

Woman at that age.

[Mark Gagnon]

But one of them is paying child support or alimony. But it is really interesting to see her reaction to it and how her friends react.

[Jim Sexton]

They hate it.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yes. Okay, so can you explain one, what is alimony? And two, what is like the Steelman argument for it? Like, give me.

[Jim Sexton]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

Not like, oh, this sucks.

[Jim Sexton]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

But what is the best case scenario?

[Jim Sexton]

So alimony or spousal support or spousal maintenance? Every state calls it something different. Is a payment that's made from one former spouse to another. And it's intended to either rehabilitate their earning capacity so that they can kind of get on their feet, or it's to roughly approximate the marital lifestyle for a certain period of time. So it's very rarely what we call non durational, meaning like you broke it, you bought it forever. You owe her the marital lifestyle. There was a time where that was the way it was done, but it hasn't been that way for many, many years now.

[Mark Gagnon]

So just so I can clarify anybody who's listening, essentially there's this idea where if you're married and you have a certain lifestyle, right, and there's a wide.

[Jim Sexton]

Disparity in your incomes, and there's a.

[Mark Gagnon]

Wide disparity in your potential income, because the wife might not even be working.

[Jim Sexton]

Correct.

[Mark Gagnon]

It is up to the husband or the wife, whoever is the breadwinner, to maintain that lifestyle outside of the marriage.

[Jim Sexton]

Or some approximation of it for some period of time.

[Mark Gagnon]

Got it.

[Jim Sexton]

So the Steel man argument for it is the following. There are economic decisions you make during your marriage, and you make them as a couple, right? So. So it is very difficult for everybody to be Beyonce. Somebody's got to be Destiny's Child. You know, you can't all be the, you know, Lionel Richie. Somebody's got to be the commoner. So what you do is you say, okay, look, you're the star right? Now. I'm going to stand back. I'm gonna take care of home. I'm gonna do my. My thing. You. In the law, we call it diminished lifetime earning capacity, which. Which basically means if a woman takes her late 20s or her 30s off from the workforce, because that's when you have kids, you have kids in your 30s, kids in your 40s, very hard.

[Mark Gagnon]

For her to get back into the workforce.

[Jim Sexton]

And when she gets back into the workforce, she's behind in the race.

[Mark Gagnon]

So now she's like, if you join.

[Jim Sexton]

The New York City Marathon halfway through, you're not gonna finish with everybody else, no matter how fucking fast you are.

[Mark Gagnon]

And just clarifying, behind of the race means, like, when she was 20, she would be in this beginner position. I forget what that's called. Like, early entry position. At 40, she should be like a VP or something. Because she hasn't worked for two decades, she has to go back at that beginning.

[Jim Sexton]

So in the law, we call that diminished lifetime earning.

[Mark Gagnon]

And because it's a beginning position, the earning potential is very slow, is lower.

[Jim Sexton]

And it'll never catch up. Because by the time she reaches the age, she would have been at 40, she's 60. So she's closer to retirement. Retirement. So it's lost. So what you're doing is you're sort of saying, okay, we're going to compensate for that. That's the argument for it.

[Mark Gagnon]

Now, I. I actually think that There's a lot of compassion, empathy in that idea. Like, that's the best steel man I've heard for it. It makes a lot of sense.

[Jim Sexton]

Here's the question I don't think most people would disagree with.

[Mark Gagnon]

No, no, no. Here's the other question I have. There are certain circumstances where there is a divorce. There is a payment and splitting of assets to the tune of like, tens of millions of dollars. And on top of that, an alimony payment. Isn't there a way where it could be calculated that the assets themselves would assume that alimony.

[Jim Sexton]

So what's really interesting is, is that a fair. Without realizing it, you've actually just joined the legislative committee of the New York State Bar association because a few years ago, the domestic relations law was actually modified to reflect exactly that.

[Mark Gagnon]

Okay. I think where they said what they.

[Jim Sexton]

Call it is the. The. The income creating capacity of assets received in equitable distribution, and now it is one. When I started my career 25 years ago, that wasn't a factor. And then a lot of lawyers, myself included, were like, wait, she's getting $20 million. Why does she also put it in treasuries at 5%? She's got an income stream. So the courts and the legislature caught up and now they say, yeah, if you're getting like, I just did a divorce where they was an $800 million marital estate.

[Mark Gagnon]

Wow.

[Jim Sexton]

She actually had the audacity to ask for Alamo. I mean, the judge looked at it and went, listen, you're getting $400 million worth of assets. You're going to be all right. You know, we're not. That can kick off income if you want it.

[Andrew Schultz]

Yeah, yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

So. So, okay. I'm glad that they are making these adjustments. And I think a lot of times you have to put in this legislation because you have to protect women, especially at a time where, like, they weren't able to work. Yes. Like, a lot of these laws, I imagine, are put in times where, like, women aren't even part of the workforce.

[Jim Sexton]

That's when a lot of them came about. And then the law is very slow to change because the way that our law works is it's sort of a living thing that modifies as times and standards change, as it should, but there.

[Mark Gagnon]

Is bureaucracy you have to go through, and that's always going to.

[Jim Sexton]

And by the way, to bring it back to where we started here.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

That's why I'm a fan of prenups.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yes. Yes.

[Jim Sexton]

Because if you're a fair person and your soon to be spouse is a fair person.

[Mark Gagnon]

This is.

[Jim Sexton]

Couldn't you have this conversation?

[Mark Gagnon]

So, so this is, this is really interesting. And just before, just to caveat it, like, we all understand the emotional reaction to a prenup and this idea of, like, the impending doom of your marriage before it even starts. So we get that. But it is interesting to attack the prenup. Maybe attack is the wrong word, but approach the prenup with this idea that current legislation might not reflect what both parties feel is fair in a relationship, no matter how it goes. And you can, if you love some of the current legislation, put that into the prenup.

[Jim Sexton]

Sure.

[Mark Gagnon]

If you don't, you can remove with it. So I think that's an interesting argument.

[Jim Sexton]

For it, that that's, to me, the best argument for it. Because here's the other problem. Is there another contract that you've ever heard of that they can change the terms of the contract without even telling?

[Mark Gagnon]

That's interesting.

[Jim Sexton]

Like, imagine if you bought a. Or leased a car.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah, this is really interesting.

[Jim Sexton]

And they, they said, oh, by the way, the state just decided we're going to change how the interest rate works. And when you have to make the payments and you're not allowed to go, oh, well, then I'd like to opt out and return the car. And they go, oh, no, no, no, you can't do that. Sorry. Like, so there's rules. There's a prenup that was written for all three of your marriages by the government that can be changed unilaterally by people other than you and your wife and affect you forever. So to me, my attitude is, listen, you could do a prenup one way and then three years later, do an addendum and modify. Like, you can make it a living document. Just like you make your will, you make your will at one point, you make it again, five years later, you change it. You change it.

[Mark Gagnon]

I think the perception of it is a person with a lot of assets.

[Jim Sexton]

Sure.

[Mark Gagnon]

Trying to make sure that the person that they're going to spend the rest of their life with never gets those assets in the event that the marriage doesn't work out, which is the goal of a lot of prenups.

[Jim Sexton]

And by the way, not an unfair concept like, let's, let's, let's.

[Mark Gagnon]

You're bringing 100.

[Jim Sexton]

Let's go to an alternate reality.

[Mark Gagnon]

I got to peer real quick because the next thing I do want to talk to you about is, like, I think we're getting there. Like, what happens with these, like, huge estates, these people that have, like, generational wealth. Anyway, can we take, like, two minute break? Listen. Very important that we discuss March Madness. There's nothing. There's more important to the people in this podcast than amateur sports.

[Akash Singh]

Yes.

[Mark Gagnon]

Love amateur sports. We love amateur football. We love amateur amateur basketball right now.

[Akash Singh]

Crazy money now.

[Mark Gagnon]

So are they even amateur?

[Jim Sexton]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

So they're just shittier pros. Yes, we love shittier pros.

[Andrew Schultz]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

Like, I don't have enough time to watch every NBA game that I want to watch, but I make sure I make time to watch shittier pros.

[Andrew Schultz]

Most of them. Yeah. Watch guys who will probably never make it to the NBA.

[Mark Gagnon]

Never make it. And if they do, there'll be huge disappointments.

[Andrew Schultz]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

There's maybe one or two guys that will have a career.

[Andrew Schultz]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

In this entire draft. So. So. Yeah. But, but, but, you know, it's March Madness. Doesn't feel very, very mad. Right.

[Akash Singh]

Does it feel like, I don't know, crazy upsets yet?

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah, probably St. John. That's the only one that team lost to that team or whatever.

[Akash Singh]

Oh, I heard about that.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah. And then everybody. And then all the adults pretended like they cared. Do you remember that? Oh, my bracket is Boston. My brackets are busted.

[Andrew Schultz]

No sport has had as much done for it by March Madness with brackets, like, it's saved. This is the only reason anybody gives a. Because their office is going to give you free lunch if you win. And that's why you can't.

[Jim Sexton]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

You're all working at Lumen.

[Jim Sexton]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

I think this was fantasy sports before fantasy in that, like, remember I'm not. Because obviously everybody gambled on whatever the they wanted to gamble on back in the day. But like, you rooted for your team when we were growing up. I rooted for the Knicks. I rooted for the Giants or the Jets. Whoever was worst, I rooted for the Yankees. And then fantasy comes around. You start rooting for, like, individual players because it reflects on your team. And I think that the. The bracket was the closest that we came to. Most of us did not go to the colleges that are playing in the tournament. Right. My school, I think we made it the year before I went there. I don't even know if we've made it since. Right. So you end up having this, like, almost fantasy esque relationship with the bracket.

[Jim Sexton]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

So we pretend that we care about amateur athletics, which we do not.

[Akash Singh]

New York people also have a weird relationship with college sports in general, which I don't get because so many New Yorkers will go to state schools and then they'll should have some patriotism because.

[Andrew Schultz]

There'S no good state school like at athletics in New York.

[Akash Singh]

But if you go to from New York, I understand still like Ole Miss.

[Mark Gagnon]

A lot of New Yorkers end up going to Michigan or Wisconsin if they can't get into. And they'll still be like, yeah. So like if there's a New Yorker that said Michigan or Wisconsin, I just want you all to know that that was his last choice. And I'm gonna be honest, they thought they were better than that. They applied to Cornell, they applied to Brown. They, they probably didn't think they were smart enough to get into like Harvard or Princeton. But they applied to the lower IVs. They didn't get in. And they're like, my safety score school will be. I will make the pilgrimage with the rest of the New York Jews to Wisconsin or Michigan.

[Akash Singh]

They have a good business school.

[Mark Gagnon]

That's what it is. So anyway. And then they pretend to like the college, you know, amateur athletic.

[Andrew Schultz]

And ironically, NYU is a bunch of kids who wanted to get naive and couldn't. So they're at nyu.

[Mark Gagnon]

Exactly. They're at nyu. But it's actually a good school. Yeah, that's the difference. Whereas Michigan and Wisconsin.

[Jim Sexton]

They just hate Wisconsin.

[Andrew Schultz]

Get away from them.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah, say again? I said they hated their parents. They just wanted to say like, how did we get there?

[Andrew Schultz]

Why do to an even colder place? Is you did it well, go to Santa Barbara. The polar opposite weather wise. Let's go to a shittier weather state.

[Akash Singh]

No winter, no classes.

[Mark Gagnon]

Like perfect.

[Akash Singh]

You know what I mean? That's, that's what you wanted, a college experience.

[Jim Sexton]

Yeah, man. Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

I mean it was such a good Mexican food. Finally. Do you guys remember a single thing you learned in college?

[Andrew Schultz]

May. Yeah, maybe one or two.

[Mark Gagnon]

I don't remember one. I thought about this the other day. I don't remember one thing that I learned.

[Akash Singh]

No, come on.

[Mark Gagnon]

I don't remember one. Like I, I, I, I can't remember.

[Akash Singh]

A single, you know, all of Gente Fernandez. Because of college.

[Mark Gagnon]

Not in college.

[Akash Singh]

Extracurricular.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah, I would have learned that here too, you know, good thing I would have met a Mexican kid here.

[Akash Singh]

That's a good point. No, if they had that class though, the.

[Mark Gagnon]

I'm trying to think. I think I learned some like evolutionary biology stuff.

[Andrew Schultz]

That's all I remember.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah, maybe some psych 101, but like, I don't think you don't learn anything. The statistics right now. I can't remember. I can't remember mean media mode. I got Sign cosine tangent.

[Akash Singh]

That might be high school. That might have been high school. Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

I don't remember none of that. Anyway, the point is, if you want to bet on useless sports, you can bet on college sports.

[Akash Singh]

Hell yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

And you can do that with stake. Stake is the leader in global betting and US social casinos bet on top sports and also college and political events. And the use of promo code flagrant for your welcome both bonus. Now, let me just caveat this and say, listen, I'm right.

[Jim Sexton]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schultz]

Well, there's only one way to make it fun and that's gambling.

[Jim Sexton]

Yeah. Can we not.

[Mark Gagnon]

Gambling sucks. Can we just acknowledge.

[Andrew Schultz]

Yeah, yeah. College basketball, they're dripping off their foot.

[Mark Gagnon]

Oh, but it's. The defense is better. It's more fundamentals. No, no, no. You're gambling on it. That's what makes it exciting.

[Jim Sexton]

Yeah, yeah.

[Andrew Schultz]

That's the only way it's exciting.

[Mark Gagnon]

You'll have to gamble in every single NBA game. If you did, you'd obviously do a mistake. But you don't have to because it's the best of the best. But if I'm gonna watch Liberty take on Drake. Yeah, I need some scratch on it.

[Akash Singh]

19 year old athlete putting everything down, trying to get his mom out the hood. I'm putting money on it.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah. Shout out to Cooper, flag man. Anyway, let's get back to the show. There are certain people that are targeted, meaning they come from very wealthy families. Their families might have billions of dollars and like marriage has been almost like a tool to protect those assets for hundreds of years. Maybe in some of these families, I.

[Jim Sexton]

Mean, well, that's what marriage originally was designed culturally for the purposes of maintaining land ownership. I kind of want to like, I.

[Mark Gagnon]

I actually after we get into this discussion, I'd really like to know some of the history of marriage. Marriage, like why one, why it's continued to be around. Like if this is something that didn't have societal utility, I think that who.

[Jim Sexton]

Were the first people that were like, this is going so great. We should get the government involved.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

You know, like that's weird.

[Mark Gagnon]

It does seem weird that that's an interesting thing. Even when my wife are gonna get married, I was like, I really don't care that the government knows about this. It's important to me that you and I know about this and we are committing to one another. And I think for them, I think that the idea that the government knows about it makes it feel more real because of like societal expectations or whatever.

[Jim Sexton]

But you know what's an interesting thing I've always found fascinating is if you said to me, you know, Jim, I'm thinking about buying an airplane. If I said, oh, really? Why? That's not a rude question. Yeah. You would say, oh, you know, I think I fly a lot and it'd be nice. I want to learn how to do it. Okay. If you, you're dating a girl for a certain period of time, you say to me, you know, Jim, I'm thinking about getting married. And I go, why? Yeah, that's rude.

[Mark Gagnon]

Why is that rude?

[Jim Sexton]

Like, this is a technology that fails 56% of the fucking time. And let's say there's another 10, 20% that stay together for the kids because they don't want to give away half their shit. Why is it rude to say to someone, you guys are getting along, you're in love, you're having fun. Why do you want to get the government involved?

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah, like, why?

[Jim Sexton]

What? My, my whole thing is, what is the problem to which marriage is a solution? Like, what is the problem to which marriage is like anything else in your life, you can answer that. What is the problem to which this is a solution? It's hard to hold water in my hands, so we need a container for it. What is the problem to which this is a solution? It's nice to be able to talk to people when they're not in the room. Okay. What is the problem to which marriage is a solution? I'm a law lonely.

[Mark Gagnon]

No.

[Jim Sexton]

Marriage doesn't solve that problem.

[Mark Gagnon]

Security to answer. To answer your question, I thought you brought up a really great point when it came to, like, allocating time with the kids in a divorce, which was like, if a dad has every other weekend, it's kind of looked at like, oh, yeah, okay, he's got a job, he's a divorced dad. If a mom is every other weekend, she's looking at, like, a psychopath. Right? So I do think that women that are in long term relationships but aren't married feel a societal struggle, scrutiny. Will he not commit to me? Does he not really love you? Is he trying to protect his money or his assets or something like that? And I think a lot of times that informs their decision to, quote, unquote, get the government involved. It's less about the government. It's more about, like, how will society view me as this person's partner? And is it a lack of commitment? Which obviously now we remove the emotion from it. We can unpack and go, yeah, it doesn't change anything in that relationship. And you can literally not get Married. But you can sign a contract with some lawyers about how assets can be distributed. Like, you can have the government play no part.

[Jim Sexton]

And if you, by the way, don't even know what role the government plays in that, it's kind of a fiction. And by the way, like, you trust that Mark is married.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

Have you checked the paperwork?

[Mark Gagnon]

Exactly. Yeah, yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

No, no, like, honestly, like, if. Have you ever gone to a wedding?

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

And after. At the end, gone, lovely ceremony, Great pigs in the blanket at the cocktail hour. You see the paperwork? Yeah, yeah. I'm sorry.

[Mark Gagnon]

Marriage license.

[Jim Sexton]

I just want to make sure, like, your parents might not be married, but you know what? Did you check the paperwork?

[Akash Singh]

I've never looked.

[Jim Sexton]

We know about the nurse outfit.

[Mark Gagnon]

We don't know about the paperwork.

[Akash Singh]

They're so low.

[Mark Gagnon]

So you're speaking.

[Jim Sexton]

Have as many weddings as you want, guys. Like, getting married's lots of fun. It's a great party. I'm all for it. I love weddings, cuz I like pigs and blankets. But the truth is, like, does that mean you actually have to go sign a marriage license? Get the government.

[Mark Gagnon]

But let's, let's real quick, let's. Let's just divide this up. What you're not saying. You're not saying that having a partner that you guys dedicate your lives to each other and grow a family with is bad.

[Jim Sexton]

Not only is it not bad, I think it's the best thing in the world.

[Mark Gagnon]

Incredibly important.

[Jim Sexton]

Like relationships, love. Like, what? What is better than love?

[Mark Gagnon]

Nothing. Nothing, Nothing, Nothing. I guess what happens is, I think when people hear the word, like, why would you get married? They often assume that, that you're like, have a few girlfriends or don't commit to one person or it's not gonna work out. You're pro relationship. You're pro.

[Jim Sexton]

Like, I'm pro monogamy.

[Mark Gagnon]

You're pro monogamy. Pro family.

[Jim Sexton]

I'm pro people building families together. Look, there's a reason why throughout the history of humankind, pair bonds, monogamy. This exists for biological reasons. It exists for social reasons. But if I saw a correlation.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

Between love and marriage.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

And love being sustained by the fact that you've married. I would be the biggest fan of marriage in the world.

[Mark Gagnon]

Right.

[Jim Sexton]

What I see is the opposite. But what I see is people dating and in love.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

Who then sign on for a contract that they do not understand at all.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yes.

[Jim Sexton]

And then I think it becomes almost antagonistic to it because our society. Society is so. Considers it so acceptable. Come on, listen, look at every group of women you've ever seen out who are married. Okay. And one of them is not married. And the one who's not married is talking about a guy who she just started dating. And they all are. Oh, my God, he sounds so great. He's so wonderful. It's so great. Oh, my God. What did he. Oh, he did that. He's so lovely. And then when they talk about their husbands, oh, he's such a. I mean, you know, and then he comes home, all that is is the guy that she's talking about a couple of years down the road. Like, marriage becomes very antagonistic to this situation. Says the guy who's been married how many years now?

[Mark Gagnon]

I don't know.

[Jim Sexton]

Like. Okay, I'm telling you, I every. The previews is always the best part of the movie. No, no, no.

[Mark Gagnon]

What I'm trying to say is specifically one like. Like, when everybody knows that you're married, it's no. Like, you'd have to be a psychopath to walk into a room of your friends and be like, my wife and I did the most amazing thing, and she's the kindest person. That's not what we want to hear about. We want to hear, like you said, like, when you as a divorce attorney and you walk into a party, you're like, tell me the drama. Tell me the craziest thing. So I'm coming in with the funny shit, which is the drama. When you're dating a new person, there's no drama yet. It's like, we went on one date, he beat me. That never happened. So it's just like, oh, what's the sex? What's it like? Is he good?

[Andrew Schultz]

And we miss that euphoria. Not that the love fades, but it shifts from euphoria to a different.

[Jim Sexton]

And by the way, what it shifts to can also be way better than that euphoria.

[Andrew Schultz]

I think my relationship. My. Has gotten better since.

[Jim Sexton]

Yeah. I think most. There are a lot of people that will tell you that. And by the way, at its best, that's what happens in a relationship is you give up novelty in exchange for a depth of connection. A person who understands you, a person who. Look, this all makes sense. Sense to me. Again, the question I have is how does the government get involved in that and does the institution value to it? Like, I genuinely believe what you are saying about how you feel about your wife.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schultz]

Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

If you had not married her.

[Andrew Schultz]

Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

And you hadn't signed that contract, you would still feel that way.

[Andrew Schultz]

What. What I could say in your favor is that maybe society law hasn't caught up to society. Society. Society has gotten more egalitarian. Gender roles wise, equality wise for men and women. But especially 30, 40, 50 years ago there wasn't that. So women needed that security. And I think that's still left over. Not. I don't think marriage has no place, but I definitely understand women's need for it more than men because they're still coming from. This equality thing is relatively recent.

[Jim Sexton]

My, my attitude about tradition. Cuz really marriage is a tradition. It's a societal tradition. Tradition. And there's really two ways to look at tradition. And I think they're both valid. Okay. One is a tradition is something that worked in the past because there's reasons for it. And maybe the people before us knew some things that we haven't figured out yet because we're younger than them in the scheme of things. The other way you can look at tradition is peer pressure exerted by dead people. That's really what tradition very often is, is it's pure pressure from dead people. Why are we doing it this way? Because my great grandmother did it that way. Your great grandmother didn't have a smartphone. Your great grandmother did a whole bunch of things differently, some of which by the way, make as much, if not more sense now, but some of which make no sense anymore. And how have we evolved as a culture to the point where if you said my wife is my property, she was her father's property and then he handed her to me in exchange for me giving something to her and now I, I own her.

[Andrew Schultz]

Sounds pretty fire.

[Jim Sexton]

But some people, some people would have an issue with it okay yet.

[Andrew Schultz]

But they're probably.

[Jim Sexton]

What is a wedding ceremony? Most wedding ceremonies is the gives away the bride. It's, it's symbolic of things that most women would find terribly offensive. But because we put all these cultural things around it, it's like, oh yes, buying a woman an engagement ring. Like, like how many women have you met that are so feminist that they go, I'm not accepting you giving me some expensive thing as a way of purchasing. Is it there that you could be a Bella Abzug feminist and you would still be like, oh yeah, no, I want a big rock and it better not be lab made. Yeah. You know, like that's how it works.

[Mark Gagnon]

I mean, I like Christmas presents.

[Jim Sexton]

Yeah, yeah, sure.

[Mark Gagnon]

It's the same shit. It doesn't make any sense. But we like nice things.

[Jim Sexton]

Right. And there's no problem with it, of course, but I don't then create a Whole notion as to why. Why this is good for society.

[Mark Gagnon]

No, no, no, no. I think. I think what we agree on is two people coming together to share love and then potentially raising a family together and not leaving each other to go other people and create other families at the same time.

[Akash Singh]

Kids are the biggest thing.

[Mark Gagnon]

Exactly. Is really good and beneficial for society.

[Jim Sexton]

I think we can all agree on that.

[Mark Gagnon]

And let's. Let's just use the term marriage for that. If, for example, every marriage required a prenup, meaning you couldn't get married unless you had agreed on the terms of that marriage, now we've removed the government doing the prenup, which it seems to me is your biggest concern. You love.

[Jim Sexton]

Love.

[Mark Gagnon]

You love people coming together. You love them creating families. And it's really important for society. What you don't love are these rules imposed on us that might be anti antiquated or not favorable for either party.

[Jim Sexton]

Well said.

[Andrew Schultz]

You're a marriage libertarian.

[Jim Sexton]

Exactly correct.

[Mark Gagnon]

So what you want to do is. So. So I think what you're telling me. Just because I don't want it to seem like you're anti marriage. You're anti. No, sorry. You're pro. What we assume marriages, which is this union without this antiquated gunk that is then imposed on us if it doesn't go.

[Jim Sexton]

Well, if it doesn't go what my attitude is, by the way. And if you want to buy into any of the antiquated gunk, you have every right to in your preview. And this person who you've picked out of 8 billion other options.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yes.

[Jim Sexton]

You're saying this is my person.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

Yeah. And it. Who is more qualified than the two of you to agree on the rule set.

[Mark Gagnon]

I think reframing thing. And I'm sure you've done this in every single meeting. I'm more talking to the audience, but like, I think us reframing marriage in that way and having like a real cool, understanding and fair conversation about what would make us both comfortable in this. And then you learn a lot about each other, by the way. And that's.

[Jim Sexton]

That's the point. And that.

[Mark Gagnon]

Me.

[Jim Sexton]

That is the point. Yeah. Because that's a conversation worth having.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

Even if you don't end up doing a prenup.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

Having a conversation about, hey, what do we owe each other?

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

What does this mean to you?

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

Like, what do you expect of me? Because I want to meet your expectations.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

What do you. You want from me?

[Mark Gagnon]

And then you learn a lot about each other through that process. Because if if some guy is marrying a girl, then they have to do this prenup process, because that's part of the merit. The government basically says this, hey, our rules are kind of fucked up. We're going to give you a baseline. Use some, don't use some, but we recommend you go get an attorney, and maybe there's even, like, a public office where they can do it. I don't know if that's.

[Jim Sexton]

It doesn't even have to be that complicated.

[Mark Gagnon]

But, yeah. So basically, so you go do it, and then you can learn a lot. If the guy goes, by the way, in this prenup, I want to make sure that you don't deviate within 10 pounds of your weight right now. You'll learn what's really important to that guy. And then you might go, don't you.

[Jim Sexton]

Want to know that before you marry this guy?

[Mark Gagnon]

And then you might go, I don't want to get married to this guy.

[Jim Sexton]

She says to you, well, you know, if you earn less than X number.

[Mark Gagnon]

Of dollars, I don't want to be.

[Jim Sexton]

Well, I'd like to have that conversation before we've signed up for that contract.

[Mark Gagnon]

I think. I think that's, like, a very fair way of approaching it. But I like this idea. Idea that you're not against the union. And I think a lot of times when there's criticism of marriage, people think it's criticism of two people starting a family and loving each other. That's not it. We need that for society. It's a good tradition.

[Jim Sexton]

Saying I do isn't saying I can. It's saying, I'll try.

[Mark Gagnon]

Right. At best, right?

[Jim Sexton]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

You know, like, at best, what you say when you say I do is you're saying, I'm making. Making you a promise.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

And if you're not three, you know, people break promises.

[Mark Gagnon]

Right.

[Jim Sexton]

So really, what you're saying when you make a promise is, I'm gonna really try.

[Mark Gagnon]

I'm trying my best.

[Jim Sexton]

I'm gonna try my best. I'm gonna try my best to love you. I'm gonna try my best to. To take everything that you bring to this relationship and see it in good faith.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

And I'm not gonna attribute negative intentions. I'm gonna cheer for you, and you're gonna cheer for me, and I'm gonna see your blind spots. And when I have to call you out, I'm going to do it with love. And I'm going to try to say to you, babe, I think this is going to hurt you long term. What you're doing right now? Like, what is more beautiful than that? I would disagree with that.

[Mark Gagnon]

That's awesome.

[Jim Sexton]

But again, like, why not call those terms out in advance and have that conversation?

[Mark Gagnon]

I think this is a super healthy way of looking at marriage. And if you're telling me right now that the legislation has already changed to adjust some of the antiquated ideas that were there to obviously protect women but now are no longer. Longer needed, what you're basically saying is the government is going, hey, we got to update the prenup. If the government has a prenup, they're basically going, marriages deserve prenups.

[Jim Sexton]

And the government, by the way, is changing it. But they're changing it the way the government changes things, which is way late in the game.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

So it's like they don't catch up. Like, there's a reason why the IRS's lawyers and the tax lawyers that get paid millions of dollars, the tax lawyers that get paid millions of dollars are always four steps ahead of these fucking guys.

[Mark Gagnon]

And they're like, the tax top of.

[Jim Sexton]

The class goes to work for these firms.

[Mark Gagnon]

Why?

[Jim Sexton]

Because they have every incentive to do that. So for me saying, you know what? I trust the government so much that I know they'll change the law to protect me, that's the most naive thing I've ever heard.

[Mark Gagnon]

And even if you want to look at the government acting in good faith, they're like, hey, there are these people. Go, hey, we got a problem. There are these divorced women. They're homeless right now, or they're going back living with their parents. Parents like, they're struggling to eat. They can't even take care of their kids now. They're not around their kids. We gotta do something to protect that. They overcorrect.

[Jim Sexton]

And this is the mistake. People come into this and they think prenups were designed for wealthy people only. Right. And by the way, there's a reason why. Because, look, there's times where a person comes to the marriage. They have a tremendous amount of assets.

[Mark Gagnon]

I want to talk about that.

[Jim Sexton]

And they say, look, I've got a ton of money. If in an alternate universe, you. Are you now at your level of success?

[Mark Gagnon]

Yes.

[Jim Sexton]

And you meet a lovely young woman, and you say, you know what? Let's get it. Let's do this thing.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

Do you mean if you get divorced in three months, she should get half of everything? That's fucking crazy. That's crazy.

[Mark Gagnon]

And I think even the government would say that that's how it works.

[Jim Sexton]

Yes. That isn't how it works.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah. And. But maybe there was a time where it was.

[Jim Sexton]

Well, and there's still very complicated things, which is how guys like me make a lot of money. Because what happens is we have what's called transmutation, which is if you had a separate property asset, meaning something you on before the marriage, and then you get married, and you mix an asset that you earn during the marriage or income earned during the marriage with your premarital money, you turn that the separate into marital. So we have what's called the marital presumption, which is basically so, like, think of. I always tell clients, think about it like, you know, a. Your separate property, premarital money is like a bowl of water, and marital money is like a drop of red die. You drop that in, you can't take it back out. The whole thing's pink.

[Mark Gagnon]

You're so doing renovation with your marital money. Now all of a sudden, you're saying marital. The property becomes all marital, muted. Well, and. But you could make the argument that by doing those renovations, it increased the value of that property 5 million 100%.

[Jim Sexton]

And, you know, I get paid a lot of money per hour to make that argument. And then the other lawyer gets paid a bunch of money by the hour to say, no, no, no. There was no donative intent. There was no consideration.

[Mark Gagnon]

But the fact that there's even a.

[Jim Sexton]

Reality is, why are we making money on this? Why couldn't the two of you in advance just sit down and say, you know what? Let's put aside some, like, let's decide the rule set. If we put it in your name, it's this. If we put it in joint sex, we'll split 50, 50. If we use premarital money, we'll do it this way, have that conversation.

[Mark Gagnon]

This is great. I love how, like, you obviously, are amazing communicator, and you're very spiritual spirited about this, but, like, the spirit to me seems to come from this place of, guys, this could be so much easier and so much better. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

So much better.

[Mark Gagnon]

But there is this negative stigma about a prenup because we only think about these people with tons of assets that are doing it to protect it from a gold digger. We don't think about people who are building a life. Like, in a lot of our circumstances, we don't really have that. I mean, we're doing okay, but we don't have, like, tons of money. And then once we get married, we start building this amazing, amazing life.

[Jim Sexton]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

And that's probably the majority of People that are getting married, the majority of people aren't coming from $300 million.

[Jim Sexton]

No. And by the way, like, people that don't have as much are the ones who really have to worry about how do we divide it and protect it. Because if you got hundreds of millions.

[Mark Gagnon]

Of dollars, give her 20 million.

[Jim Sexton]

Like, but if you're, if you're in a situation where, like, most people, you're kind of basically getting by, well, now you have two electric bills and two cable bills and two everything. So, so to me, like, you know, what's so funny is when early in.

[Mark Gagnon]

My career, I, I, I'm sorry to cut you here, but it is really interesting to, like, understand your perspective on this. You're not against the institution. You're like, it could be so much more.

[Jim Sexton]

This could be better.

[Mark Gagnon]

And you've gone through so many where you're like, we're still bickering over this because you guys didn't make this very easy decision early on.

[Jim Sexton]

I just don't think it makes it unromantic. Like, like, we all know how do you cross that point ends.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah. How would you.

[Jim Sexton]

Does that mean life's not like, did you ever go like, well, I'm gonna die someday, so I might as well just die now?

[Mark Gagnon]

Like, no.

[Jim Sexton]

Like, the beauty is going through the press like you're watching a movie and someone says, oh, the movie's gonna end. You don't go, well, it. I'm not even gonna watch it. Like, no, the beauty is to watch the movie and know that this is a temporary thing. Look, every marriage ends.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

It ends in death or in divorce.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

Your marriage will end. I promise. I.

[Mark Gagnon]

Hold a second.

[Jim Sexton]

Yeah. That's a weird thing to say to a person. I hope your marriage ends in death. But I do, I hope that's how your marriage ends because the only two options is just going to end in death or divorce.

[Mark Gagnon]

Right. Right.

[Jim Sexton]

So you have life insurance. No one ever would look at you and go, you're so morbid with that life insurance. Like, why would you think you have to do that? I'm protecting these people that I love. Like, I know something's good. Okay, so what is wrong with two people? I, When I was early in my career, I decided. Decided. I thought, you know what? You, they have these wedding fairs. Have you ever seen, I don't know if any of you were forced to do. You chose well if you didn't have to do this. This is good. You did well with the women in.

[Andrew Schultz]

Your lives where you go see a bunch of vendors or something. My wife did that.

[Jim Sexton]

Okay, so she. That's fantastic.

[Andrew Schultz]

This is like a whole Indian.

[Jim Sexton]

You wouldn't want to see sad men. Not that thing. Like, they're just like, hold. You know, it's like if you took her to the car show, like, she's just like, what the are we doing here?

[Andrew Schultz]

Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

So you. You know. But. But these things, they have photographers, the cake people, the invitationals, all of the.

[Andrew Schultz]

The whole wedding industry, the whole crew.

[Jim Sexton]

They are. Please. I'm not the scavenger.

[Andrew Schultz]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

I don't make it rain.

[Jim Sexton]

I sell the umbrella. Like, these people, they're making. They're monsters.

[Mark Gagnon]

They're full on monsters.

[Jim Sexton]

They convinced. But it's like you're.

[Mark Gagnon]

You're.

[Jim Sexton]

You're actually gonna have a wedding and not give away scented candles. I know we have to do that. You're like, well, I mean, you don't care about. You don't care about your family. I guess you don't have to have a scented candle. We need scented candles.

[Mark Gagnon]

You know?

[Jim Sexton]

But I went and I said, hey, listen, can I get a table? Can I have a table? Like, you pay, like, 10 grand just for prenups.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah, Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

I said. And I promise I'll do it very respectful. Respectful. And say, hey, congratulations on your engagement. Let's talk about prenups.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

They wouldn't take my money. Wow. They wouldn't let me in the door because. And why? Because there's a fantasy they're selling people. And don't let reality get into the fantasy. And see, for me, I think I'm actually a true romantic because I like reality. Like, in my attitude is I like somebody who looks at the situation and goes, you know what? Whether we win, whether we lose, let's play this game. Like, let's do this thing. Let's try. Like, let's shoot for it. Like, I like. This is a game we can't win. We're either going to die and lose each other, or we're going to divorce and lose each other. But fuck it. I want to take.

[Mark Gagnon]

You make the argument that. That going through that prenup process could lengthen the marriage, I think.

[Jim Sexton]

Well, here's what I'll tell you. I've been doing that for 25 years.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

Okay. 25 years I've been doing prenups. And I always end up having a good relationship with the person at the end of the transaction. Because unlike divorce, it's not protracted. It's relatively inexpensive.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

I've probably only had to do three divorces Four divorces of people. I did prenup.

[Mark Gagnon]

This is, this is interesting to talk about.

[Jim Sexton]

What are the self selecting group?

[Mark Gagnon]

What are the percentages? Okay, so we know what the percentage of divorce is for marriage. What is the percentage of divorce for prenup?

[Jim Sexton]

You'll never know. And here's why. Prenups not filed anywhere. Like, I have celebrity clients who I did their prenup.

[Mark Gagnon]

That'd be really important.

[Jim Sexton]

And they are doing interviews saying, oh, we. You don't have a prenup. And I'm like, yeah, you do. It's in my safe. I wrote it. But they tell people, because why? It's one of those things, everything on it. So here's the cake. Oh, here's this. Picking out flowers. No one's ever like, here's the signing the prenup. Because everybody goes, they got a prenup. All right? You know, it's all social stigma. And there's no reason we have to normalize prenups. Some of these guys, we have to democratize prenups. We have to. But the way prenups are, the. They. They are, they are so unbelievably easy for attorneys to draft. No one is making a bunch of money on prenups. Like, we make our money on litigation. We make money on the way out, not on the way in.

[Mark Gagnon]

Right?

[Jim Sexton]

So the truth is, like, there is no reason why it has to be reserved for the wealthy. This is something that can be democratized. There can be an access to justice. People could go even with AI technology. Listen, I, I've been involved in a. A startup called Trusted Prenup. And our thing is going to be, we are going to democratize prenups. It's coming soon because AI has made it possible now for there to be like a tree menu where people go in and go, okay, what do we want to do with Alamo? Okay, what do we want to do when it comes to our estates? What do we want to do? And you can just pick and put it together, spit that document out. And by the way, it's not filed anywhere. You don't have to tell anyone, anybody that you did it. It can just be a discussion between you and this partner that you tell the most intimate things to. You have the most intimate experiences with. Why can't you have honest conversations about that?

[Mark Gagnon]

So hearing that, are the three of.

[Jim Sexton]

You guys gonna get postnups?

[Mark Gagnon]

No, for sure not. I mean, it's gonna be really bad for.

[Andrew Schultz]

I'm gonna have to watch this episode. So I'm not Gonna get.

[Jim Sexton]

And he's gonna show it to every girl.

[Mark Gagnon]

Baby, let's watch this.

[Jim Sexton]

Is that last week? Different haircuts. Like, no, that was a rerun.

[Mark Gagnon]

Our wives are going to watch this.

[Jim Sexton]

He said something about Abraham Lincoln. Very racist. You know, it was the whole issue. We had to clash as I. We got two hands.

[Mark Gagnon]

No, I think our wives are going to watch this episode for sure. I'm curious their perspective on it, but I guarantee you.

[Jim Sexton]

Texting Mark this morning and I said, I was like, you got to tell your wife that you're spending the day with a divorce. Definitely get some.

[Mark Gagnon]

I brought that up three days ago.

[Jim Sexton]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

I was like, by the way, you know, we're gonna have this divorce attorney.

[Andrew Schultz]

Yeah, My wife was definitely like, why are you having him on?

[Jim Sexton]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Your wife never met me and all hate me, but hopefully by the end of this episode, they're like, you know, he's kind of a romantic. That's so bad.

[Andrew Schultz]

You are pro marriage. You're just anti marriage without a prenup.

[Jim Sexton]

Well, what I'll say is, I think it's irresponsible to marry without a prenup. I'm not again listening. You people want to do dumb shit. Like, people jumped out of plane like.

[Akash Singh]

I don't fucking care.

[Jim Sexton]

You want to do some dumb? Do some dumb. Just admit you're doing some dumb. Like, I'm just a fan of reality.

[Andrew Schultz]

I'm an Indian kid who's a standup comic.

[Jim Sexton]

You think, there you go.

[Andrew Schultz]

I'm new to dumb.

[Jim Sexton]

Yeah, yeah. That might be your brand, but all I'm saying is at least own it.

[Andrew Schultz]

Yeah, Believe me.

[Jim Sexton]

Yeah, let's believe. Because marriage is like the lottery. You're probably not going to win. Yeah, but if you win, it's so fucking good, Bob. Whatever, man. Do it. But I'm just the kind of guy that likes to. I don't go into the casino and go, yeah, I'll bet money. How much? I don't know. Whatever you guys decide, like, that's it is.

[Andrew Schultz]

No, it is high risk, high reward. And I think anybody who believes differently is. It's crazy. It is high risk, high reward. I just think if you play and you do. And one thing. You brought up a car analogy. One thing I laugh at is people who are like, you know, you get a car, you get an oil change every 3,000 miles. You get your transmission, you get all the constant maintenance. Marriage people are like, no, you don't need to go to counseling. You know, you do it one time.

[Jim Sexton]

Maybe You've done more amazing about marriage. If you want to take the core analogy a little bit further, like, all right, so you get married in your 20s or your 30s, right? All right, when you're 20 years old, if I said to you, you can have any car in the world, what car do you want? You'd be like, Ferrari, Lamborghini or Aston Martin, anything. It might be a muscle car. Okay? You're. And then after you bought it, I sold. By the way, it's the only car you're ever going to have your whole life. You'll be like, wait, what? Like, because I don't want to be 80 getting out of a Ferrari. Like, I. I'm gonna. If I have kids, where am I gonna put the car seat? Marriage is. You are choosing this person. And theoretically, you are saying in your 20s or 30s, you are saying this person for the rest of my life. Now, again, at best, it's like those trees that grow next to each other and then become entwined. And it's like they grow together and they. They become something different. Different. But they become something different together. So, like, that's amazing when it's done the right way. But, but to suggest that, like, oh, it'll never change. We're always going to be like, we were. We fell in love. That's foolish.

[Mark Gagnon]

You need to, you need to switch the name so it's called. I don't know why Al's been laughing at me. I literally know. I, I got lost. When Akash was like, I'm. I don't know, saying something, I was.

[Akash Singh]

Like, what's going on?

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah, yeah. But, but, but Al's been laughing at me. And then I started going like, am I making a weird face? Does it look like I'm regretting my marriage? Like, I got really, like, I got really self conscious.

[Jim Sexton]

I know. Regretting the marriage face. And you don't have.

[Mark Gagnon]

Okay, good, good. But, but, but I think that prenup is already so stained. Like, it's just so stained. Yeah, I think that if you called it like, estate planning, like, for example, like, my wife and I did, like, estate planning. And you're just playing for the worst case scenario. What if I die? What if she died? What if everybody d. Was that coming?

[Jim Sexton]

Oh, it's awful when you're like, what if we both die?

[Mark Gagnon]

And you're like, oh, my God, what.

[Jim Sexton]

If we both die and your sister died?

[Mark Gagnon]

And then you're like, oh, it's. It's horrifying. It's really up, but really important. But it Important. And at no point during it was it this like contentious thing.

[Jim Sexton]

You.

[Mark Gagnon]

Cuz you're all looking out for the best case scenario of everything. And I think prenup is already so radioactive, it's like, what is another thing you could do? But I really like that idea of like, because you said, you said it best.

[Jim Sexton]

Call it marital contract, whatever it is.

[Mark Gagnon]

The government has a prenup for you whether you like it or not. And most people don't even know what that means. And it changes depending on what state you're in.

[Jim Sexton]

That's the part scares me the most, which is the government can change anytime they want.

[Mark Gagnon]

And you could move to a different state and live there long enough. And now I think that state takes precedence.

[Jim Sexton]

You've been there six months. They have jurisdiction.

[Mark Gagnon]

So, so the reality is there is nobody that doesn't have a prenup.

[Jim Sexton]

Everyone has a prenup. So, and, and, and you could look.

[Mark Gagnon]

Into what it is.

[Jim Sexton]

Someone can change the terms and conditions and you can't opt out.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah, yeah. This is the education crazy.

[Jim Sexton]

Well, and that's the funny thing because like, you know, a lot of like, you know, I did an interview with Matt Walsh a bunch of months ago on the Daily Wire and he was all about like no fault divorce. No fault divorce is the worst. What is the worst? No. So New York is a no fault state. Most states are now no fault states, which means you don't have to prove why you're getting divorced. You don't have to have fault. It used to be you had to show adultery, you had to show incurable mental illness, you had to call a band abandonment. So it was great for lawyers because we had to, like before we even got into the real fight, we had to get into a fight of are you allowed to get divorced? Okay, so the states eventually said, look, this is stupid. If one person in the marriage has decided the marriage is over, guess what? The marriage is over. So now we're no fault. Well, a lot of people on the far right, Matt Walsh, you know, Ben Shapiro, it was like their big flavor of the moment for a little while was they were saying no fault divorce is the worst thing in the whole.

[Mark Gagnon]

Wide world because it incentivizes divorce in a way.

[Jim Sexton]

Well, like it's kind of like saying, you know, we got to get rid of all these emergency rooms because like everybody who's in there has broken bones. So people must be breaking bones so they can go to the emergency room.

[Mark Gagnon]

Like that's fucking ridiculous.

[Jim Sexton]

Like, no, they didn't break it, like this is just there to solve the problem.

[Andrew Schultz]

They have to pretend.

[Jim Sexton]

What I, what I said to Matt, what I said to Matt is, look, why wouldn't we have. Why would you have barriers to exit? Why don't you have barriers to exit entry? Yeah, like, why don't you have. You have to take a class or you have to sit down with a person who went through an ugly divorce. Or like Catholics, they have the pre cana where you got to sit down and you talk to couples who've been married for 30, 40 years and the guy says, look, you're gonna have to say, I'm sorry. For some you're not sorry. That's part of being married. And you go, all right, cool. I can live with that. Like, have, have some barriers to entry. Like you, you. If you. I adopted a dog from ACC in New York City. You know how much fucking paperwork I had to fill out? They wanted to know my third grade English teacher's name. Like, they wanted to know, like, did Mrs. Soyble, she think you'd be good?

[Mark Gagnon]

She hadn't seen me in 40 years.

[Jim Sexton]

You need to have a. You want a piss test? Like, I'm adopting a dog you were going to kill in two days. Like, just give me the dog. Get married. 50 bucks, you can pay all this in Vegas and you're married.

[Mark Gagnon]

All right, guys, let's take a break for a second. I genuinely want to tell you guys about the best protein bar on the planet, okay? I mean this sincerely. This right here, the David bar. Okay, what do we want out of a protein bar? We want protein. Protein. And we want it to have low calories. And ideally we don't want to have that much sugar. And then after that, can it not taste like cardboard? Those are the things we want. There's no other bar on the planet that's going to give you 28 grams of protein at 150 calories and zero sugar. David figured it out, okay? Figured it out. It, I'm telling you right now, it is fantastic. It is the best tasting protein bar that I've ever had. And I'm not counting the ones that have 6 grams of protein. That's not even a protein bar. I'm talking about the ones that are actually marketed as protein bars. This has more protein than all of them and it actually is delicious, okay? I'm telling you, adequate protein intake is critical for building and preserving muscle mass now. And as we age, if you're an old guy like me, that muscle mass is gonna be what really allows you to Play paddle for the rest of your life. Okay. I literally, it's the only reason I lift weights is so I can play paddle. And unfortunately, when I don't do it, I start to get injured. It's that. It's that horrible. So, David bars are the first thing that I'm gobbling down in the morning before I go get a workout or afterwards. Some. For some reason, you got to get like your weight in protein in a day, which is like almost impossible. But I try my hardest. Anyway, David has the most protein per calorie. So eating 100 calories of David will make you feel fuller than eating 100 calories of any other bar. David is also now available in stores in nyc. So if you're in New York, stop by your local bodega idea to get your protein fixed and then tell the guy at the bodega where you heard about it, let him know it came from flagrant. Okay? That's very important. I'm sure that will get back to David. Anyway, David comes in six delicious flavors and they're all worth trying. Also, if you buy four cartons, you get the fifth one free, which will not happen at the bodega. So make sure you do that [e-mail] flagrant I'm telling you, this is the truth, man.

[Andrew Schultz]

It's fantastic.

[Mark Gagnon]

It's fantastic. It's absolutely fantastic. Anyway, let's get back to the show.

[Andrew Schultz]

All right, guys, I have a question for you. What do a mechanic and auto shop shop owner in Georgia, a taco restaurant operator in Arizona and a life saving medical innovator in Tennessee have in common? They are all small business owners thriving on TikTok. In the US alone, over 7.5 million businesses. And I'm talking everything from family owned shops to entrepreneurs who own tons of and are simply looking to get more rich. They're all using tick tock. It's how you compete. It's how you grow. 74 of businesses on TikTok say it's allowed them to scale operations, increase sales and expanding new locations. And you know what that means? That means U.S. jobs. There are over 7.5 million U. S businesses on TikTok employing more than 28 million people. And that number keeps growing. Small businesses thrive on tick tock. So if you got a small business, you can learn more about tick tock's contribution to the economy@TikTok. Economicimpact.com My wife is on TikTok now and Andrew's entire goal is to make her make more money than me. And make my life miserable. TikTok. That's a platform that will ruin my marriage. But I'm okay. Okay with it. Cause if she leaves me, I'm coming after her money. Let's get back to the show.

[Mark Gagnon]

You know, it's interesting. Back in the day, I had a different business manager, and this is when we were about to get married. The business manager hit me up on the side. He's like, by the way, I think that, you know, we should get this prenup settled or whatever like that. And I was operating with good faith, right? So I was like, well, why don't you just get a lawyer? And then, like, my wife and I will talk to the lawyer, and then we'll see what the things are. Right. Well, you're already smiling because you know where the is going. Because I'm like, let's just figure out what these things are. Like, she's not against it. Like, just. And we talk the lawyer. And the lawyer goes, well, I don't know if I should be having this call with you and your wife. And I'm like, well, I'm not trying to over my wife.

[Jim Sexton]

It's called potentially adverse interests.

[Mark Gagnon]

But there's the perfect example of. Of how could you then go forward with this agreement if obviously it's rational? But how can you go forward, this agreement, if the first time you're talking to a lawyer, he basically says, hey, she shouldn't be on because we're going to try to fuck her.

[Jim Sexton]

Right, Right.

[Mark Gagnon]

Like, to me, I. I literally was going, just give me a lawyer so they can explain what's going on. And then if this is something that we even feel like we should do.

[Jim Sexton]

Yeah, well. And I can't say. Well, because here's the thing, what the lawyer is saying, and they don't say it in artful ways, but what lawyers are saying in that situation is you have potentially adverse interests. More for you is less for her. Less for you is more for her. Right. So. So what? What? What? But see, again, this is all stuff that technology has made easier. So people come to me and they go, look, I want my fiance and I want to talk to you about a prenup. I go, look, I'm not allowed.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

To counsel you both. But here's what we can do. Let's do it via Zoom, Record the entire thing. She will hear everything. You can play it for whoever you want, including your fiance. I can't give her legal advice, but I can give you legal advice and you can play for her every word. I Say to you so that she doesn't feel intimidated. But see, this is. The reality is we can do it, solve for the actual problem. So what you're saying is, you're absolutely right. We're taking an adversarial system, and you're hiring lawyers whose job theoretically, is to protect their individual client at the expense of the other. Which, by the way, one of the things I'm least proud of my colleagues for is we're so used to dealing with warring tribes and divorce that then when we're doing a prenup, we approach it the same way. The same way.

[Mark Gagnon]

And it does leave a bad case.

[Jim Sexton]

People are getting in a car and driving home together. Like, this is not the same thing as a divorce.

[Mark Gagnon]

That was the idea.

[Jim Sexton]

So there should be a different approach. And there can be. We just have to rethink the way we do.

[Mark Gagnon]

Even the language, it was like, yeah, we just want to protect you. And I go, well, my wife's not trying to kill me. She's not trying to hurt me. Like, why are you using this language as if. If she's trying to do something nefarious.

[Akash Singh]

Protect me from what?

[Mark Gagnon]

Protect me from what? Like, why aren't we protecting ourselves? Why are. That's why I'm saying, like, the way that we approach this and as you've talked about on the pod, I think has been really healthy, which is like, hey, just come together on an agreement that you think is superior than the agreement that the government is going to impose on you.

[Jim Sexton]

Totally.

[Mark Gagnon]

Who wouldn't agree to that?

[Jim Sexton]

Totally useful. It makes total. Why can't you? Much easier sell. And by the way, I think what you said earlier, lawyer is absolutely. Why isn't there a neutral party for people to have a really important discussion?

[Mark Gagnon]

But why isn't there, like, a lawyer that wouldn't represent each party, but just someone you could go to for information?

[Jim Sexton]

Do it. There are people that do it.

[Mark Gagnon]

There should be that.

[Jim Sexton]

There are lawyers who work collaboratively who'll say, let's all meet together. We each have a lawyer. There's people that work in mediation to mediate a prenup. There's a lot of ways. We're just more than one path up the mountain.

[Mark Gagnon]

Like, you don't even have to do the prenup, so just inform us. Maybe we work it all out with you. And then we.

[Jim Sexton]

So there's so many ways to do it. But again, we're just used to doing it one way. We've handed it off to an adversarial system. And so To a person with a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

Like, to a person who argues for a living, everything looks like an invitation to have a argument.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

You know, I get paid to be paranoid. Like, my mother tells me she loves me. I ask for references, like, that's my job. Like, that's my job because I see the worst in people all day long. That's heavy. Yeah. You know, so what you have to do is you have, have to get to a place where you go, okay, look, this is, this is a conversation. Like, I guarantee when you and your wife did that estate planning, you probably had to have some conversations about, like, hey, something happens. Like who, who watches the kids? Like, and what do we do about.

[Mark Gagnon]

Do we trust that family member? Are they responsible?

[Jim Sexton]

But I tell you, I bet that that deepens the level of connection, intimacy the two of you have. And by the way, you go doing that estate planning, like, we are never more alive than when we're in the presence of death. Like, when you stop and think about, holy, if I lost this person, like, what would that feel like? You want to hug that person 50 times more. So to me, like, early on in a relationship when you're still madly in love with each other and you're about to sign up for this, you know, I'm marrying you, it's going to be you. You and only you. That's the time to say, you know what, if we ever hurt each other, if we ever went, what do we owe each other? How do we handle that? Like, how do I love you? How do I make you feel safe? That's a great time to have that conversation.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah. Yeah. This is, this is really healthy. I really think there should be a neutral party that you could go to for information about, like the laws in the state you are.

[Jim Sexton]

There's mediators. You can go to mediator, you can go to an attorney and say to the attorney, look, I just want to have an educational conversation about this. I don't want you to draft the prenup necessarily again. I think you're gonna see in the coming years, I intend to be part of it. You're gonna see more of the democratization of prenups because I think that the younger generation, like, I'm older than all of you and I have to tell you one of the things, like, I look at my 20 something year old sons and I have a lot of hope for the future because I think that you're looking at a situation and going, okay, but why do we do it that way? Like, why do we do it that we don't have to do it that way? And it's okay for people to say, hey, you know what? We can do it however we want to do it.

[Mark Gagnon]

That's. It just left a bad taste in both of our mouths. Like, I understood, like, where the business manager was coming from, because he probably has these clients that got a bunch of gold diggers trying to go after him, but it's like, I don't have that relationship with my wife. Like, we didn't have. I mean, I had a couple bucks, but, like, it's not what it was now. And we were operating in good faith. It wasn't even, like, how do we keep this from you? And then these lawyers on the side are trying to talk to me going, hey, well, you know, they should have somebody else do it. And then we don't talk. And I'm like, guys, this feels like I'm trying to screw over the person that I'm about to spend the rest of my life with. And I don't. I don't feel comfortable with that.

[Jim Sexton]

But. But I tell you something. Look, your. Your. Your career has been characterized by being somewhat iconoclastic. Like, I've been a fan since the 441 days. Like, I, I. And. And I'm sure when you said, I'm going to put this out myself.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

Some people who genuinely care about you. You.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

And genuinely wanted to see you succeed.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

Said, dude, don't do it that way.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah, sure.

[Jim Sexton]

You'll never make a dime.

[Mark Gagnon]

Sure.

[Jim Sexton]

And by the way, they were not trying to mislead you. They weren't trying to hurt you. It's not that they didn't trust you. They were looking at it and going, dude, I don't want to see it go wrong for you.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

Okay. So. So people can, in very good faith, give very bad advice. Right. Because if.

[Andrew Schultz]

If.

[Jim Sexton]

Because if that's the right way to do it. Yeah. They did it wrong. Oh, they did it wrong. Right. Because if you go, no, no, I'm gonna do it this way, and you knock it out of the park like you did.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

They go, well, what the was I. Why did I do it this other way? And the answer is because it was peer pressure from dead people.

[Mark Gagnon]

No, that's.

[Jim Sexton]

I.

[Mark Gagnon]

You're right. We get caught up in these antiquated systems, and they either work for us, or we believe that we're invested in them, and then we don't want to break.

[Jim Sexton]

And yet, and I don't mean to use you as an Example. I'm not picking on you.

[Mark Gagnon]

Please.

[Jim Sexton]

You had the, the, the, the, the intelligence to think of this.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

And the balls to try it.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

Okay.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

And yet when it comes to getting married. Yeah. There was never the thought of, like, oh, you know, why am I going to let the government impose a rule set? Why wouldn't we figure out a way to do it now? Why? I don't blame you for that. I think it's, it's just never been a conversation we have as a society.

[Mark Gagnon]

My parents also had a really good marriage. And like, like, I don't, I think when you come from broken marriages, it's a lot easier to look at how badly it could go. Like, and I think that I'm very lucky to come from a very healthy marriage. And so in my mind I'm like, oh, yeah, it's just going to go like that.

[Jim Sexton]

Right.

[Mark Gagnon]

So maybe there's a little naivete.

[Jim Sexton]

Right. And listen, I think there's a beauty to that. Like, I, I, I wish I knew. No Astronomy. When the stars appear. Like, I think, you know, like, I liked it when I was like, look at the pretty lights in the sky.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

When you're like, oh, actually that's something that flamed out a million years ago and lights just reaching like, oh, fuck, I wish I didn't know that. I thought it was nice.

[Mark Gagnon]

Ignorance is bliss.

[Jim Sexton]

Yeah. So I think there's something very beautiful about not knowing this stuff. But again, I am a fan. Like, I think the truth is actually even more beautiful.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

Like, I think when two people say, I'm gonna give you the ability to hurt me, like, I love you enough. Cause I have to tell you something. I think it's fucking insane to love anything. I really do. Like a dog, a kid did. Like, you're, you're gonna lose it.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

Everything you love, you're gonna lose someday.

[Mark Gagnon]

Right? So.

[Jim Sexton]

So to love something is to accept the inevitability.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

That it's gonna break your heart someday. And yet we do it anyway because it's the best thing.

[Mark Gagnon]

Because life is better with it.

[Jim Sexton]

Right. So to me, like, that makes it more beautiful to say, you know what if you break my heart?

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

It will have been worth it. Yeah, it will have been worth it because we got to do, do this.

[Mark Gagnon]

Sold. Sold. Akash is getting a prenup.

[Akash Singh]

All right, can we ask the cultural question?

[Mark Gagnon]

Yes, yes, yes, yes. Who's the worst in divorce? Culturally, ethnically, racially?

[Jim Sexton]

Wow.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

Wow.

[Mark Gagnon]

Like, who's the most ruthless? Who, like, treats the, the, those are.

[Jim Sexton]

A bunch of different questions you just threw on. Yeah, I mean, what I'll say is like, the Russians. Russians. There's, you know, Chekhov's plays are dark for a reason. Like the winters are long, so the, like Russians come in sometimes a professional hit. Like they, they get cold.

[Mark Gagnon]

They really. The husband to the wife, you're saying? Or the wife.

[Jim Sexton]

Well, no, the wife. Wife more so. Even Russian women are. We used to call them the red menace sometimes in the courthouse. Cuz like they're, they're. I mean, God, it's really hard to say. I mean, you know, like the stereotypes. Look, sometimes stereotypes are a real time saver. Let's just call that out. Let's just, let's just call that out. And sometimes they're wildly inaccurate. I get it. But sometimes they're a real time saver.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

And anyone who's ever dated a Latina woman.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

They will burn your house down and then ask who Maria was who called. And you're like, that's from work. She's like, well, you should have told me that before. You're like, before you burned the fucking house down. Like, so. So that can be bad. Russian women, in my experience, professionally, not personally. Professionally, yeah, they, they will. When you are now the enemy, when you have crossed that line, they get ice cold. And there, there is nothing. When you're married to a Russian woman, there's nothing she won't do for you. And when you're divorcing a Russian woman, there is nothing she won't do to you. Like, she will your right up example.

[Mark Gagnon]

Of like, you don't have to give, obviously a person, but something that they might have asked you to do or told you about.

[Jim Sexton]

Oh, I mean, they'll surveil the guy. Like, they'll have people follow him. They'll. They'll blow him up to the irs. I've had a couple. The irs. Yeah. And they'll, they'll shoot first and ask questions later. Like, they'll, they'll, you know, they'll. They'll call the IRS and go, by the way, I called the. Not I'm thinking about. So I can go, that's a terrible idea. Like, nope. They're like, oh, I did it already. And you're like, okay, then I guess let's figure out what we're gonna do with that. You know, so that's, that's a big one. Terms of who I mean, I will say again, I'm being very stereotypical Italian women. A lot of Italian women in my Experience. They're. They're the most willing to put up with infidelity. No, they're. They're okay with the gumas. Kind of like, what is it Fridays for the gumas? Like, yeah, he ran up like, it's like he's making a fool of himself. But it's like, did you. Don't bring him to restaurants we go to.

[Mark Gagnon]

Right.

[Jim Sexton]

You know, like, don't bring your around people.

[Mark Gagnon]

So like.

[Jim Sexton]

Like, if you. No, but it really is like. It's like, I don't want to. Don't ask, don't tell. But if, like, somebody sees you out with the girlfriend, you make it fool.

[Mark Gagnon]

Embarrassing me.

[Jim Sexton]

You make it a fool of me. Now, like, if you're running around with some girl, you're making a fool of yourself. And you go ahead, make a fool yourself. But you run around with some girl in our Friends see you. You're making a fool of me. That's a different vibe.

[Mark Gagnon]

Why do you think that is, culturally?

[Jim Sexton]

I don't know. I'm not Italian, so, you know, I'm German. We're all about the blitzkrieg. But I don't. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I think. I think it's all cultural. I think it's the way people. Like what you said, you observe your parents. Marriage. You observe that becomes normalized family. You just sort of go, okay, this is how marriage is. Got it. So there are a lot culturally, the idea of a gourmand, like, the idea of, like, you know, men are idiot. They run around, whatever. Who does he come home to? Who does he take care of? Who does he love? Who does he have kids with? That's what matters.

[Mark Gagnon]

Maybe it's like certain cultures place more value on different things. So if he's like a dedicated husband, he's a provider protector. There's a lot of emphasis on those things. And if he's killing it in those things, three things, and then he does this little. Whereas there might be other cultures, I think American culture puts like, a lot of emphasis on fidelity.

[Jim Sexton]

Tremendous.

[Mark Gagnon]

Maybe more so than European cultures.

[Jim Sexton]

Yeah, I. America has. I mean, the French, like, I think, find like, infidelity charming. You know, it's sort of like, well.

[Mark Gagnon]

You know, I've been taking my wife to Paris for years, bro.

[Jim Sexton]

Not Robin hold only for a lot. Yeah, it's a. But it is. It's sort of like a sense of, you know, where existentialism came from. They invented, you know, existentialism, democracy in the menage. We, like. They came up with a Lot. And. And one of the things, they look at it like, yeah, you know, people have Dallas because there's a difference between an affair and a dalliance. Like, a dalliance is like you said earlier, like, you know, you do some dumb shit, you hook up with this person, it doesn't really mean anything to you. You told them you're a race car driver named Steve. Like, who the cares? I'm not making that personal. I was a race car driver. No, so the truth is, like, I. I think there's a difference between that and an ongoing affair.

[Mark Gagnon]

Right.

[Jim Sexton]

You know, like, I found my soulmate and it's this other person. That's a whole different level of.

[Andrew Schultz]

I didn't understand the difference until, like, getting married. Now I'm like, oh, I see. That's a whole different thing.

[Jim Sexton]

Well, and that's where I like, people put in prenups sometimes. People put. People put in infidelity clauses sometimes in the prenups.

[Mark Gagnon]

Interesting.

[Jim Sexton]

And I discourage people from doing that because in order to make something legally enforceable, you have to define it. And so how do you define infidelity? Because if you define infidelity as, like, genital contact, that's one thing. But, like, which would be more upsetting? Like that your ex got drunk and kissed some dude or that she was texting this guy every single day and confiding her most personal secrets in with him and like that. To me, that's much more of a betrayal.

[Andrew Schultz]

It depends on how much less work.

[Jim Sexton]

I have to do.

[Andrew Schultz]

Honestly, not really annoying me.

[Jim Sexton]

Like, you're like, delegating that exactly the word I use.

[Andrew Schultz]

A thousand percent.

[Jim Sexton]

Yeah, that's better. But again, personal decisions, right? Like, this is a personal choice. Everybody's going to have a different definition of what it is. That's offensive. A conversation worth having. What is cheating to you? You know what, what constitutes chan.

[Mark Gagnon]

This is going to become more relevant, constituted as cheating in a prenup.

[Jim Sexton]

I discourage those clauses. So usually I don't put them in there. And I get people. I talk people out of them because I'm good at persuading people. But the weirdest infidelity clause I ever put in is that they wanted to very strictly define what constituted infidelity. So, like, oral genital contact and genital to genital contact. And then there was a whole oral to genital. Great. Somebody's got to do it.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schultz]

You know what I mean? What's going on?

[Jim Sexton]

What I thought was so funny is, is they wanted to talk about digital to genital contact. Meaning. And I, I mean first of all, I thought it was kind of grow up. I was like, like, like hand jobs.

[Mark Gagnon]

Like that's a thing.

[Jim Sexton]

Like that was like a Betamax. It's like outdated technology. Like, like how do you have a hand job? Like you be a grown up, use your mouth. Like that's just hand.

[Mark Gagnon]

You know what that is? That woman is smart because that's the massage polish.

[Jim Sexton]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

She's finding a way around outside that.

[Jim Sexton]

That girl is on anal is open still though.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah, it seems theoretically open. Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

Yeah. Well actually that. Would there be an anal loophole?

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

You know, not say did like anal to genital.

[Akash Singh]

As an attorney, that's what we do.

[Jim Sexton]

I think that Mark's head went there first. This comedy thing doesn't work out. Yeah. Let's go.

[Mark Gagnon]

Before, before we get out of here. What you were going to mention the super high net worth estates and just the history of marriage in general.

[Jim Sexton]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

How does marriage start?

[Jim Sexton]

Well, marriage, I mean, you know, marriage as a legal definition, not the idea of a pair bond and two people that started in a cave somewhere. Yeah, but marriage, legal marriage started essentially during feudalism. It was essentially we, we were, we were joining clans, we were bringing annexing lands, bringing together armies, like some Game of Thrones shit. Like it was basically people saying we're joining our families together, we're having children together and merging these clans, merging these lands, merging these armies. It was essentially a land and wealth preservation technique.

[Mark Gagnon]

So it was a financial agreement more so than an emotional.

[Jim Sexton]

And then the idea of people marrying for love.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

Was a very different thing.

[Mark Gagnon]

How, how old is that concept?

[Jim Sexton]

That concept goes back to like the. I mean, depends on. Yeah. I mean, look, I think there was always a romantic element to things. There was always a connection. But the idea that like arranged marriage was not the right move and that you should choose who it is that you want to marry and that it should be based on the criteria find sexually attractive and compelling as a human. That's like the 40s and the 50s is when Hallmark cards started that shit. You know, like what we. What most people call love to today was something that was invented in the 50s to sell shampoo. Like the idea that like, you know, I just have this feeling in the pit of my stomach and that means we should sign up for a governmental contract and then. Fuck.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

Like that is not like that's you. You had to sell that to people and you sold it kind of insidiously without telling them the whole thing. Nobody read the terms and conditions right Right. So I. I really think the idea of, like, modern marriage is very, very different than what our grandparents signed.

[Mark Gagnon]

It needs different requirements.

[Jim Sexton]

I think it needs. I mean, yeah, there is no scenario where I. I forget who it was who said it, but, you know, we are primitive biological creatures.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

Living in medieval institutions. Institutions holding godlike technology in our hands. How do you think that ends? Like, you think it ends well? Yeah. Or do you think it ends with some really uncomfortable. That we've got to get our hands in and figure out?

[Mark Gagnon]

Right.

[Jim Sexton]

And all I'm suggesting, like, all of my public work is about saying. Because I. It's just to say to people, look, guys, like, I love, love. Yeah, but I don't believe in fairy tales.

[Mark Gagnon]

Right.

[Jim Sexton]

So why can't we have an honest conversation? Because I don't think that understanding the realities of marriage and the legalities of marriage takes away from the beauty of deep connection with a romantic partner and building a life together, period.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah. Beautifully said. Any other questions, boys? Yeah. Who has the most volatile divorces? Heterosexual heroes.

[Jim Sexton]

Gays or lesbians? That's a great question. Lesbians. Lesbian couples have the highest rate of domestic violence. I remember saying to a colleague of mine, a gay man, an attorney, the first time I did a lesbian divorce, I said to him, wow, man, this is ugly. And he looked at me and he went, it's two women. And I went, okay. You know, so. So that's. I mean, yeah.

[Andrew Schultz]

Sometimes Al asks a question he knows the answer to because he has a point.

[Jim Sexton]

Lesbian drama can be a big thing. Gay men, you know, gay men. It's changed a lot because there was a time where gay men very often didn't have kids. And. And there were even, like, countries that refused to let gay men adopt. And there was not surrogacy law, and reproductive rights hadn't gone where it is now, and there wasn't marriage equality. So, like, gay men had a lot of assets. Because if you don't have fucking kids, you get a lot of extra money.

[Mark Gagnon]

Like, for real, if you didn't have.

[Jim Sexton]

Kids, you're like, yeah, that's a. That's a Ferrari. This kid. And this kid's a, like, house in the Hamptons. Like, you. You got. Kids are expensive. So gay men just. They didn't have kids, so they just had tons of fucking assets. And they would argue over them, you know, in terms of, like, vitriol. I. I don't think there's a pattern to it. I think the reality is, like, everybody brings a different kind of crazy to it. You Know, and divorce doesn't make people crazy. It just takes the crazy they had and turns the volume way up on it. So if someone was already anxious, now they're gonna have like a full on panic disorder. You know, if someone was. Because that's the part that's funny to me. Like, what's really funny to me is people come in and they'll say to me with a straight face, like, I can't believe my husband's being such a vindictive cheap asshole. And I go, really? Like during the marriage was like, what was he like? And she's like, oh, he was a vindictive cheap ass. I'm like, well, you're just divorcing the person you were married to. Like, if this person was petty as and nasty and selfish and okay, then that's who they're gonna be when they get divorced. Like, if you're married to a, like a, A realistic person who's prone to compromise and concedes the possibility of their own error, when you get divorced, they'll do that. That's really good. Like, my ex wife's a lovely person. Like, I love her, she's great. There's a lot of people I love but wouldn't want to be.

[Andrew Schultz]

How was your divorce with her?

[Jim Sexton]

Super friendly. We went to a mediator.

[Andrew Schultz]

We figured out what it was because I've been wondering.

[Jim Sexton]

Kids were 5 and 7. We've had 20 years since then. She's remarried. Couldn't be happier. To a great guy who's nothing like me. Like, patient, quiet, sensitive. Like she was married to me for, you know, a number of years. And like, you know, I'd come home and she'd start telling me about her day and I'd be like, all right, come on, skip to the end, let's go. Like, we gotta just move. I got three stand up comics here and I'm running the conversation. She's good at chance, like, and the guy she's married to now, like, she just, you know, she'll, she'll sit there and he'll tell, she'll tell him. And then my cousin said this and he's like, yeah. And he's genuinely interested.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah, yeah, like, he's genuinely interested.

[Jim Sexton]

And I look at it, I'm like, we are made different. We're just made there. And he's perfect for her. I love her enough to be like, he's perfect for her. Like, and I look at that. But, but, you know, that's what. But she's the per. When I married her, that's who she was when I came kids with her, that's who she was. And that's why like we've had a really success. And by the way, I do not believe that that marriage was unsuccessful because it ended in divorce. It produced two amazing kids who love their mother, love their father, like, get along with all of us. Like they're healthy, well adjusted young men. So to me, like, just because something ends doesn't mean it wasn't successful. And I think we have to approach relationships that way. That's why again, having the conversation conversation early on when you're still madly in love and in that romantic. Well, that's the time to talk about like, like look at if a person says to you if every ex boyfriend they have, they're like, that guy was a piece of. Or every ex girlfriend you have, you're like, she was such a piece of. That tells you something about this person. Either that they have abysmally bad judgment. Yeah. Or maybe you're the problem.

[Andrew Schultz]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

And so I think it's worthwhile to have conversations when things start about how they end.

[Akash Singh]

What's the dumbest reason you've ever seen for a divorce? Just on a personal basis? Really?

[Jim Sexton]

Dumbest one. Stupid people. We had a lot of like weird political divorces since 2016.

[Mark Gagnon]

No way.

[Andrew Schultz]

Wow.

[Jim Sexton]

Oh, yeah. That were like, yay, watch his Fox News, I'm out. Like, you watch his Newsmax, I'm gone. Like a lot of like, he voted.

[Andrew Schultz]

For Trump just because he has good taste. No.

[Jim Sexton]

Yeah, no, but for real, like political. I had.

[Mark Gagnon]

Unless you wanted that.

[Jim Sexton]

I've always said the saddest one, the saddest one I ever had was this guy was in his like late 80s and he left his wife of like 50 or 60 years for a 50 something year old woman that he was having an affair with. And what was saddest about it to me was not that this like 60 year marriage was ending. It was that, holy, I'm still gonna be led around by my dick when I'm in my 80s. Like, I legit thought. Like, I'm not gonna be chained to an idiot forever. Like I thought in my 80s, like a beautiful woman would walk by and I would be like, oh, a human being. Like, I would just. And instead I'm like, oh my God, I'm gonna be 86 and still want to chase skirt. Like, that's Fox. Like we're never going to be free. So that to me was like, yeah, people get, I mean people get divorced for some crazy people.

[Mark Gagnon]

What's the most petty thing you saw in a divorce.

[Jim Sexton]

I once had a divorce that was. There was a $25 million marital estate. We. They'd burned several hundred thousand dollars each in council fees. We'd gone through a bunch of litigation. We managed to settle the case. And the only thing we were down to was the division of personal property. And we couldn't agree on who got a. A $45 toaster oven. And the settlement blew up. What?

[Andrew Schultz]

Wow.

[Jim Sexton]

Settlement blew up.

[Andrew Schultz]

Wow.

[Jim Sexton]

$45.

[Mark Gagnon]

Did you not just go all.

[Jim Sexton]

I just went. I. I actually did that. I actually said, I'm on Amazon right now. Prime delivery. I will buy everyone in this room this toaster. And we just signed the.

[Mark Gagnon]

It's never about the toaster.

[Jim Sexton]

It wasn't about the toaster. What I will tell you. I'll tell you. I mean, I have a lot of stories, but I will tell you one you'll appreciate. So I had a client who was a devout fundamentalist Christian, and he was later convicted, actually, of molesting kids and went to jail. But that's a side.

[Akash Singh]

See, it's not just Catholics.

[Jim Sexton]

It's not just Catholics. Yeah, it's not just Catholics.

[Andrew Schultz]

Yeah, it's all of you.

[Jim Sexton]

All of you. But it was a great. He was, you know, he was a. He was a client that was. He had a lot of money, and we had worked very hard to negotiate a settlement of his case. And the day comes to sign the settlement and to do what's called a voidir, which is where the judge says to each party, do you understand the settlement? Did you agree to it? Are you under duress? You know, so these are the stuff. But. But, like, it was great. I got him a great deal. Like, a great deal. Like, this was way better than it would have been at trial, and he didn't have to go through the trial, and this was great for him. And he meets me at the courthouse the morning of it, and he says, jim, you need to talk to you. I spoke to God last night. I prayed on it.

[Mark Gagnon]

Oh, boy.

[Jim Sexton]

And God said to me that I should not. That I should take it to trial. And I said, that is a terrible idea. And I explained to him, again, here's all the ways that we're getting value here. Here's all the things. This is what it should be. And he said, no, I'm sorry. I prayed on it. And the Lord has said to me, you know, so, of course it blew up. The whole thing went hay. Haywire. We start the trial, the lunch break. I go Back. And my partner, Colin, it's been my law partner for many years. I go back to him and I tell him what happened. And he looks at me, he goes, you know, you played that all wrong, Jim. I said, what? He goes, what you should have said is, what time did you talk to God? 10:30. Okay. At 11. I talked to God. And he said, jim, my son, in whom I. I am well pleased.

[Mark Gagnon]

How.

[Jim Sexton]

How. My blessings upon you.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

By the way, are you going to see Steve later? When you do, tell him, forget that I said earlier you should take the deal. He's like, it's unfalsifiable.

[Mark Gagnon]

Right back. Just say.

[Jim Sexton]

Just say. He's like, if you can't disprove what God said to him, he can't disprove what God said to you. You could have just said, I talked to God a half hour later, and he said, take the deal.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

So if that ever happens to me.

[Andrew Schultz]

Again, were you kind of satisfied when you saw it go against him in court? And does that happen where, like, you're in court, you realize this person sucks. And it.

[Jim Sexton]

Under the doctrine of around and find out. Yeah, he around and he found out. I mean, you know, and there's. Listen, man, I. I give people advice, and I tell clients all the time, like, look, 850 bucks an hour on mow your lawn. I don't care. Like, I was a waiter. I've done worse for less money. Yeah, but, like, you're paying me for advice, so if you want to pay me for advice and ignore it, go ahead. Your shit blows up. It's good for me. Yeah. Like, the more protracted your case is, the better it is for me. I'm trying to put myself out of business here. Like, I'm trying to settle your case, but if you want to fuck around and find out, fuck around and find out.

[Andrew Schultz]

So those cases where you're in court and you realize, oh, I'm. I'm representing the villain.

[Jim Sexton]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schultz]

Does that shift your. Like, without you. You can't help it. It just, like, affects the way.

[Jim Sexton]

Not at all. Not at all.

[Mark Gagnon]

Because.

[Andrew Schultz]

Yeah. I'm wondering.

[Jim Sexton]

For me, like. Like, I look at it as a. It's a. It's a legal issue. It's a puzzle. It's strategy. Like, just like, I think if a. If a doctor, you know, is operating on a patient and he finds out that patient is a horrible person in real life, it's like. Right. But I'm. I'm looking at this as, like, plumbing. I'm looking at this as like, this is a problem I'm trained to fix. Like, I, I have a God given talent. Like, I don't know how it came about, but like I see seven moves ahead in a courtroom. Like half the time I don't even know why I'm making an argument I'm making. And then when I think about it, I go, oh, I did that so they would do this so that then I could do this, that then would make the judge like. And I, if I'd consciously, you know, they've done studies on how by the time there's any micro movement from a pitch miniature that could be observed by the batter, it's too late for them to start the swing. But there's still people hit fastballs.

[Andrew Schultz]

Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

So there is some exchange of energy that happens there. There's some micro something that, that can be sensed by a good hitter in baseball. It's the same thing. Like I, I have a talent for this that I don't know where it came from. I, I feel blessed to have it. I love what I do. Like, I, I love to be able to do something that you love and do it at the highest level and do it well is like the greatest gift in the world. But I really, when I'm in a courtroom, like, I am way more comfortable in a courtroom than I am in my living room. I have no idea what to do with myself in my living room. I have no idea. I'm one of those people that, like, I'm great in war and terrible in peace. I have no idea what to do with myself. But in a courtroom, I know the rules. I know exactly what to do. And I go in and I am so calm and cool. It's like Neo in the Matrix. Everything slows down. And I just know exactly, exactly what's expected of me. And I don't know where that comes from. But that's what happens is I, I no longer am thinking about this person or that person. I'm thinking about the job that needs to be done and how to do it. And that's it.

[Mark Gagnon]

Flow state.

[Akash Singh]

I want to ask lastly just how religion plays a role. I know you mentioned this guy talked to God, shout out to him. But like something like an arranged marriage in Hinduism.

[Jim Sexton]

Yeah.

[Akash Singh]

Or like, you know, Christian fundamentalism, like Islam has different rules on marriage. How does that play in. As it intersects with American culture?

[Jim Sexton]

Yeah, I mean, it comes in a lot. The divorce rate among cultures where there's a lot of arranged marriage is actually quite low because the, and I think that that can be attributed to the fact that people enter into marriage with a different expectation. Like in a lot of cultures where, you know, particularly Muslim cultures, I've had some experience with where individuals marry and there's an arranged marriage that's arranged by the parents. Parents. It's really done with this sense that marriage is about a family, a partnership, building something together. It's not this overly romanticized. The idea is that we will grow to love each other and love. You know, love is a feeling, but love is a verb, too. Like, to love someone is to act with love towards that person. So, like, there are plenty of examples of people who were in arranged marriages or marriages that they weren't quite sure. And then they. They grew to. Through shared experience and common, like, loving children together, they grew to say, this is how it is. So I think that religion and people's religious backgrounds plays a huge role in how they approach the world. And how we approach the world obviously informs how we do our marriage. I mean, I will say, as someone who was raised very strict Catholic, my Catholicism and my understanding of the rigidity of the mass and when you stand and when you sit and how address that, it's very much was good practice for the courtroom, like, because courtroom's very much the same. Like, there's people you treat a different way. There's someone who's in charge. There's, you know, there's like a hierarchy. And you. You humble yourself before that hierarchy, and you're not, like, bowing and genuflecting is not something that's a source of shame. It's a source of pride. It's like, I'm. I'm strong enough to humble myself in front of someone. So I think that that religion, at its best infusion, uses every aspect of a person's life. And so I've seen some couples that are very religious. What is. What is hard to watch. And I've done a lot of divorces where people have the same religious faith, and then one of them loses that faith, and it creates a schism in the relationship that is very hard to fix because religion has certain first principles from which people are working, you know, and so if you lose those foundational first principles, they tether so many other things in the marriage like that. It gets really, really tricky, you know?

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah, yeah, man. That's kind of sad to lose your. Your partner and your faith.

[Jim Sexton]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But sometimes, again, to. To throw the counterpoint, I've done a lot of divorces, for example, in the Hasidic community, in the ultra Orthodox Jewish community. And that is a community. I don't think I'm giving anything away when I say that if you could choose between being a man in that community or a woman in that community, you're better off being a man.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

Like, women aren't allowed to drive. Women aren't allowed. There's a lot of rules imposed on women that are challenging. It's a fairly, admittedly patriarchal society, society, culture, you know, enclave. And so sometimes those women will say, like, yeah, I can't do this anymore. Like, I don't want to be in this game anymore. I want to step out of this. And that's very challenging. It's very, very challenging because it is. It is very, very difficult to reconcile style. An ultra Orthodox religious life.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

And someone who goes fully in the other. Because people, like, moderation doesn't play into it. People treat dandruff with decapitation. Like, there becomes, like, people go from I'm ultra religious to that.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

I'm as far from religious as you can be. Like, you ever want to meet somebody who's a virulent atheist? Find someone who was raised super religious. You know, it's like, people go in that opposite direction, and it's. Yeah, it's challenging, but it also sometimes is. Is. You know, we all change as time moves on. And that's the challenge, I think, is being honest with yourself about what's changed and then being able to be honest with your partner. I will tell you, doing what I do for a living, one of the things I've learned is the most dangerous lies are the ones we tell ourselves. And most of the time, when we lie to our partner, we're lying to ourself, and then we're lying to our partner. And so I just. That's why I'm. I'm always a fan of the honest conversation. Like, just be honest. Be frank, be candid. Just say the quiet part out loud, like. And I think that's why, to some degree, like. And I'm not saying this to be, you know, I'm not trying to, you know, have your wives not be mad at me. Although it would be good to have them not be mad at me or you. I. I think one of the things I've found about comics, I've represented a couple of comics. There is something really naked and honest about getting up in front of people and talking about your most vulnerable, embarrassing, dumb shit. It's also the funniest shit. It's the shit people can relate to. But. But you Use that muscle all the time. So I imagine in relationship you do the same thing, you know, and that's probably why, like, there are like, I know a lot of comics that are incredibly happily married. I know some that never marry because of the lifestyle on the road and things like that, substance use issues, stuff like that. But I know a lot of comics that are very, very happily married because that same self effacing insight and an open, unashamed, like calling out their own.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

Serves people pretty well in a relationship.

[Mark Gagnon]

Okay, before we leave, is there anything that you've learned through all these divorces about what makes marriages successful?

[Jim Sexton]

I wrote a whole book on that.

[Mark Gagnon]

Can you give us, like, just so we end on a nice positive note, what are some things that you've. You felt?

[Jim Sexton]

I think you can learn a lot about keeping things together by watching how they fall apart. And that's why I wrote the book.

[Mark Gagnon]

I, what's the name of the book?

[Jim Sexton]

So we can. The, the. It's called how to Stay in Love. Practical Wisdom from an Unlikely Source. And you can get it on like audible if you want to listen to me talk for eight and a half hours. Or you can just get it anywhere, it's for sale anywhere. And you know, I've learned a lot by being a divorce lawyer about what keeps people together. What I, what I've learned, I would say more than anything else is pay attention, right? Just pay attention. Like, people get divorced the same way. They go bankrupt very slowly and then all at once, like, you don't get divorced because your husband's cheating on you, your wife's cheating on you, your husband's cheating on, your wife's cheating on you. Because there was slippage, there were all these little things like, you know those little things you did when you first were dating your wife to like, let her know how beautiful, beautiful she was and how like you like her better than other options. And all those little things she did for you that like, made you feel like the coolest guy and the best guy. Like, like you loved who you were when you're with her?

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah, for sure.

[Jim Sexton]

You know, like, like you stood taller. Like you, you went like, yeah, this like, like this, like I might be the person this person thinks I am, you know?

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

Like when we start losing that, like they're these little things like the, the, the advice I, I give. One of the pieces of advice I give in my book, the one that I get the most feedback on, as I said, leave a note. Just leave your wife a note, whatever. Every day when you leave the house just takes 30 seconds. Just like, babe, like, it was so fun watching that movie with you last night. Like, I married the prettiest girl in the world.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

Can't wait to see you later. Like, what does it take, 30 seconds? Yeah, like, you know, what is that doing, though? It's saying, I still see. See you. I still think you're beautiful. You're still worth my time. You're still worth my attention. There's all these other things going on in the world. There's the kids, there's a million things, the thousand natural shocks that flesh is air to. Right. But you're still. It's still you and me. Still you and me. Like, and those little things, just pay attention. Pay attention and don't let slippage happen because it is. Look, it is so much easier to stay a healthy, healthy weight than it is to get super fat and try to lose £100. Yeah. So it's the same thing. Once the wheels come off this thing, it's hard. It is really hard to get back there. So just, if you care about this person and you care about the value of that marriage, just take that little bit of time to just. Again, it can be just a kind word.

[Mark Gagnon]

Yeah.

[Jim Sexton]

It can just be building this person up. When people around, instead of taking the piss out of them around people. Like, it can be anything. It can be any little gestures, but those are the things that make us fall in love. Those are the things that make us stay in love. And when you let those little things slip, that's when the wheels start coming off. And that's. There's a short road from that to my office. So I always just tell people, pay attention and just make a point of cheering for the person that you're with. That's it.

[Mark Gagnon]

Amen to that. Thank you so much.

[Jim Sexton]

Awesome.