054. Louis Elton: Anglofuturist aesthetics beyond podcræft

Summary

Podcast Summary: Anglofuturism – Episode 054

"Louis Elton: Anglofuturist Aesthetics Beyond Podcræft"

Date: May 1, 2026
Hosts: Tom Ough & Callum Drysdale
Guest: Louis Elton

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the intersection of aesthetics, craft, and national identity through the lens of "Anglofuturism". Hosts Tom and Callum are joined by craft advocate and British Craft Prize founder Louis Elton to discuss how Britain's visual culture, artisan traditions, and even underwear can shed light on the country's future. The conversation unfolds with humor and self-awareness, touching on serious questions of social cohesion, fragmentation, and creativity in a hyper-modern Britain.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Opening: The Eccentric Heart of British Aesthetics

• The episode opens with a humorous exchange about British icons of silliness (Mr. Blobby, cheese rolling, Monty Python) (00:00–00:14).
• Louis: “I think this is a wonderful element of Britain. And in many ways... Anglofuturism lives here.” (00:14)
• Early discussion touches on how these idiosyncrasies become part of Britain’s collective identity.

2. Craft as Aesthetic and Political Project: The Saga of Underpants

• Louis recounts his project to create bespoke, artisan boxer shorts with “deep lore”, eventually forming part of his wider British Craft Prize initiative (03:17–10:08).
  • Talks of seeking Irish linen, only to discover most “Irish” linen is sourced from Flanders (05:28).

    “The Irish linen industry is a lie... All of the certifications that say it's Irish linen are not real. I'm probably going to get defamed for that. Thank God my girlfriend is a defamation lawyer.” – Louis (05:28)

  • Emphasizes the need for style (“sprezzatura”) and broader British coolness.
  • The underpants are intentionally designed with art, humor, and heritage motifs (Saint Pantalone), reflecting Britain’s idiosyncratic aesthetics.
  • Reveals the challenges in (re)localizing production and the costs of sustaining real craft (from raw materials to small-scale manufacturing).
• Discussion of underpants as “signaling”, not just for subcultural affiliation but as personal or familial heritage (particularly as Louis’ mother was in lingerie design) (10:08).
• Marketing challenges: It’s not a visible item, and buying patterns often involve women purchasing for men in their lives (12:18–13:05).

3. Fragmentation of Shared Cultural Signals

• Callum points out how Britain's once-geographic, shared culture (BBC moments, common references) has fragmented due to immigration, the internet, and social atomization (13:55).
  • “Now... communities with a shared set of values ... are actually less geographic”—Callum (13:55)
• Louis frames the British Craft Prize as a way to create new forms of cultural cohesion—a “shared framework” amid fragmentation (15:16).
• He introduces his “16 Dreams of Britain” PowerPoint, grouping eras/visions from “Royal Britain” to “Silly Britain” and “Rebel Britain”, all organized by nostalgia/innovation and aristocratic/punk axes (16:04).

4. Anglofuturist Aesthetics: The Tension and the Synthesis

• The hosts debate the potential for any unifying “British” value or signal:
  • Louis: Proposes that “craft”—high-quality, committed making—might transcend subcultures, connecting everyone from a cricket bat maker to a Savile Row tailor through shared pride and material culture (18:45–20:44).

    “That ... deep, deep head, hand, eye, mind, bodily, material interconnection to produce excellence—with a kind of wacky, eccentric kind of desire... is a distinctively British approach to the world...” – Louis (20:47)

  • Callum: Argues “these are in tension with each other”—that aesthetic and moral values have long been at odds, both historically and today (21:14; 23:20).

    “There is just a winner takes all and one will win out over another... we are in the midst of this, like, real conflict about what the future will be...” – Callum (24:36)

5. Solutions and Limits: Craft as Lifeboat, Not Salvation

• Louis sees his projects as experiments to “circumvent the battlefield” of the culture war—he’s more interested in fun, innovation, and material culture than politics (26:09).
  • Cites theorists (Ruskin and Kenneth Frampton) on how architecture and physical culture embody both tradition and future orientation (28:17).
  • Uses examples like Astley Castle and the Magdalen College library to illustrate fusing old forms with new functions (28:17–33:09).
• Callum contends many modern interventions are often visually jarring or divisive, lacking genuine public support (33:44).

6. Typeface as Metaphor for Hybrid Britishness

• Louis describes an attempt to design an “Anglo Futurist” typeface, synthesizing influences from British Art Nouveau, the City of London, Arts & Crafts movement, and more (37:07–39:22).
  • Analogy for blending past inspirations into digital-era design.
• Callum challenges the idea, suggesting unity of vision may be lost in the process (39:22).

7. Database Consumption and the Collapse of Grand Narratives

• Louis, riffing on Hiroki Azuma, discusses how the collapse of master narratives leads people to select aesthetic fragments from a “database”, making all visual culture deeply personal and atomized (41:26–44:55).

  “...the grand narrative has dissolved. There isn't one. And what replaces it is a database of options... consumption that connects you to nothing and no one other than what provides a sense of... bliss to you.”—Louis (44:55)

• He frames his efforts as “hopelessly, romantically” trying to create new meaning, even if success is uncertain (47:17).

8. Fun as Imperative: Sprezzatura and Joy in Anglofuturism

• For Louis, future-facing projects—whether industrial, aesthetic, or social—must be fun to succeed; joylessness risks repeat failure of past British “revivals” (47:17–48:29).

  “...for me, this is mostly about fun. If all of these future facing projects are pursued with a dry... redux of like British stiff upper lipism with no joy, it will just fail.” – Louis (47:20)

9. Closing: The British Craft Prize and the Future

• Louis invites listeners to enter the British Craft Prize, describing it as a space for “maverick inventors” and an ecosystem focused on reinvention—backed by practical support and a generous reward (£60k) (50:43).

  “It is about fun. It's about creating a little ecosystem of maverick inventors.” – Louis (50:43)

• The hosts wrap up by encouraging subscription and hint at more exclusive episodes (51:14).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the underpants project:

  “I come from a long line of underpan innovators, hosierists, the honorable company Hoosier Craftsman.” – Louis (10:08)

• On the challenges of local craft production:

  "If you want near boxer short autarky, it's going to cost about £43.50 just for manufacturing..." – Louis (07:37)

• On cultural fragmentation:

  “If you don't have a set of shared aesthetic and moral values, all of this falls apart. ...the communities with a shared set of values...are now spread.” – Callum (13:55)

• On craft’s cross-cutting significance:

  “All of these things are kind of connected to some sort of material culture that always connects to someone making something incredibly well somewhere...” – Louis (18:45)

• On the fate of grand narratives:

  “…the database is not only just a database...it's a database that is like actively filtering, filtering, reconfiguring and optimized just for you... You're not even intentionally curating it anymore.” – Louis (44:55)

• On necessary joy and future promise:

  “You need some fun, you need some riz, you need some magic, you need a little bit of sprezzatura and then perhaps we can change the world.” – Louis (47:20)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Eccentric British aesthetics / cultural icons: 00:00–00:32, 17:01–17:32
• Louis's underpants craft journey: 03:17–10:08
• Manufacturing & marketing woes: 10:08–13:05
• Fragmented British identity, “16 Dreams of Britain”: 13:55–17:32
• Debate: Craft as unity, or just another signal?: 18:45–24:16
• No grand solutions, only experimental unity: 26:01–28:15
• Critical regionalism & architectural synthesis: 28:15–35:24
• Typeface as metaphor for Anglofuturism: 37:07–39:56
• Database society & atomized aesthetics: 41:26–44:55
• Fun, sprezzatura, and optimism as vital to the project: 47:17–48:29
• Invitation to participate in Craft Prize: 50:43–51:14

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Final Thoughts

In this lively, probing episode, Louis Elton, Tom, and Callum unpack the dilemmas of contemporary British identity and aesthetics, tracing them through everything from handmade underwear to architectural prizes. They confront the decline of shared narratives, the problems and potential of craft as a binding element, and the enduring need for joy, beauty, and experimentation in shaping the “Anglofuturist” future.

For craftspeople, cultural theorists, or anyone fascinated by Britain’s next chapter, this episode offers thought-provoking, laughter-laced insight into the messy, creative project of reimagining a nation’s image—and the underpants beneath it.

Transcript

[Tom]

So this is Mr. Blobby.

[Louis]

Mr. Blobby. Cheese. Rolling. Mr. Bean. Monty Python. Those weird pictures of Lady Diana, Gareth

[Callum]

Southgate and Captain Tom with the psychopomp Paddington Bear.

[Louis]

That's a wonderful thing. I mean, I, for my money, think this is a wonderful element of Britain. And in many ways you may as I once sent it to you and you went boo. And I thought you boo. Because Anglofuturism lives here.

[Callum]

Caliban's rage at seeing himself in the Glo.

[Louis]

Who now has anything to say about the deindustrialization of this country?

[Tom]

Georgian town houses on the moon.

[Callum]

The highest GDP per capita in the Milky Way.

[Tom]

Small modular reactors under every village green.

[Callum]

This is Anglo Futurism.

[Tom]

Listeners, welcome back. You are just in time for a very special moment in the history in the history of the Anglo Futurism podcast. Because for the first time, a guest is about to show us his underpants.

[Louis]

Are we gonna put on Britney Spears as Gimme more.

[Callum]

You can leave your hat on by hot chocolate.

[Louis]

Even better. Well, do you want me to take off my trousers or do you want me to just expose a little bit of rear? Or,

[Callum]

you know, the Artemis mission has just gone around. So go and give us a bit of a moon.

[Tom]

Moon landing.

[Louis]

Mo. A little moon lamp.

[Tom]

Okay, so I'm describing what I'm currently

[Louis]

giving a lap dance to.

[Tom]

Tom.

[Louis]

What are you seeing there?

[Tom]

Louis is pulling up the hem of his underpants and it's a rather fine pair of underpants. Could you, could you come a little closer please? Because there's such fine detail. Right. So it looks a bit like a. It's like a plate of fine china. A Chinese china.

[Callum]

Porcelain. Chinese porcelain.

[Louis]

It's a toile de joie.

[Tom]

So what is that? So it's a white fabric with blue illustrations by one JG Fox. I think the in house artist to unherd with scenes artisans Modestia seductio. Is that the one we're doing now?

[Louis]

Seductio comiditas protectio. Yeah.

[Tom]

And so these are sort of pastoral scenes illustrated in blue on the bum and on the bun on the seductio. All right, what's going on with those underpants?

[Louis]

The underpants is actually the origin of the British craft prize. So before I started the craft prize, I. I remember you buttonholing me on the street.

[Tom]

We were having pints at a Christmas party and you telling me about these underpants and I think showing me the

[Louis]

illustrations and now they exist. But long before the British craft prize came into being, I started a substack in an Instagram, which was purely, which is I suppose now the home of the British Craft Prize. But it was purely initially a project where I covertly, I mean, there was this story about making clothes, clothing autarky, going around the UK making films and making clothes about what does the shirt making industry look like, what does the shoemaking industry look like? And in fact I did go and make a documentary about the Northamptonshire shoemaking industry. And there's many more documentaries on the way about these things, including a film about paper making and a film about gas fancy fisherman jumper knitting. But really all of this was a elaborate plan because what I, what I truly crave in life is my own bespoke sort of self designed boxer shorts.

[Callum]

Every gentleman, you know, must, should be, must be in need of a fine pair of his own underpants.

[Tom]

We are sorely in need of Anglo futurist underpants. Or perhaps perhaps you are wearing Anglo Futurist underpants.

[Louis]

These are Anglo futurist underpants. I sort of, you know, really wanted to make my own pair of boxer shorts. I can't explain why. I was just like this, this feels important.

[Tom]

What does your girlfriend think of this quest?

[Louis]

Sort of. When I told her I was quitting my previous job to make boxer shorts, she was somewhat outraged. No, no, she was incredibly supportive, which perhaps suggests she's a bit unhinged because the margins on boxer shorts are not good.

[Callum]

Particularly as I, as we saw when you pulled your trousers down, the margins

[Louis]

were really not very generous at all. But these were initially meant to be a pair of boxers. It was boxer short making as political project. And these were meant to be boxer shorts made of Irish linen or Northern Irish linen produced in and grown and refined and woven and spun and woven in Northern Ireland and then printed on a digital printing machine somewhere near Macclesfield. Um, but then, shock, horror, I discovered the Irish linen industry is a lie. And it's all grown in Flanders. And all of the certifications that say that it is Irish linen are not real. I'm probably going to get defamed for that. Thank God my girlfriend is a defamation lawyer. I also was like, okay, I'm not going to make pants. They need a bit of a razzle dazzle. One needs. And actually this is something more broadly that the Anglo futurist movement needs is a little bit of sprezzatur, a sort of a lightness, a sort of a vibey ness and a. I'm working really hard on it. Yeah, well, I've, I've got, I've got Actually, I wrote an article a couple of years ago called how to Make Britain Cool Again, which was about the origins of sprezzatura and how Britain could, could, could manifest a kind of cool, cool Britannia 2.0. Anyway, I digress.

[Callum]

Is that not. Is that already happening in the sort of Pink Pantherist like wearing sort of Union Jacks and, you know, Stormzy wearing a Union Jack Stab vest? I mean, like, and this is the point that Erin always makes is that actually there is a kind of potent UK brand that is being exported. And I think this gets to the heart of what we were talking about just before we went, we. We broke, which is that this is a specific type of signalling to a particular group that we find ourselves part of and really sorry, the Anglo futurists.

[Louis]

Pink Panther signalling.

[Tom]

No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

[Callum]

Mean your pants are. Rather than Pink Panthers specific lyrics.

[Louis]

My pants are signaling.

[Tom]

Yeah, let the man finish the story about his. Tell a story about his underpants.

[Louis]

My pants are signaling to no one but myself, but I'll give you the story. And I was like, but these must be underpants. Before we come back to Pinpanthers and Stormzy, who I think exist in different categories, but they. This sort of sense of how would you create a underpant with Deep law? And I briefly toyed with leaving my job in strategy consulting to start a underpants company called Saint Pantalone, inspired by Saint John, which is a great Anglo futurist business restaurant in Smithfield. Saint Pantalone, or Pantaleon, is the kind of the origin of pantaloons refracted via the comeda dell' arte character Pantalone. And I was like, okay, I will create a pants company where I will just get him doing different things, printed in different patterns for various different occasions. Perhaps collaborative. Perhaps we could do some Saint Pantalone goes to the character Pantalone goes to King Charles III space station. Perhaps this is potentially. But anyway, I just had this sort of idea and then I enlisted the artist JG Fox to draw Saint Pantalone or Pantalone in various positions. And he just sort of. I wrote like a long brief for him and he just sort of did it. I'm like, all right, well, we'll. We'll put that on some. Some pants. But the process, it's kind of become the Fyre Festival, which I actually sort of launched this pants project almost a year ago and I am wearing a pair of. The scaling is a little harder. I do now have a factory that is going to make some pants but they will cost 40. If you want near boxer short autarky, it's going to cost about 43 pounds 50 just for manufacturing, not including kind of the labor costs of all the design and all of that. But I'm about to launch and you can buy. If you email me or message me on the Internet, I will sell you some of these boxer shorts for 50 pounds. But no, this is not really signaling to a small community. Well, maybe, maybe it is unconsciously. It's perhaps signaling to my mother, who started lingerie business in the early noughties and was trying to kind of do kind of manufacturing.

[Tom]

It's in the blood.

[Louis]

It's in the blood. I come from a long line of underpan innovators, hosierists, Hoosierists, the honorable company Hoosier Craftsman.

[Callum]

I'm amused that you went for Pantaloni because surely isn't it like Zany Zani or like the harlequin who is more appropriate to your.

[Louis]

But he's not called Pants.

[Callum]

Yeah, sort of decrepit. A kind of decrepit dancing.

[Louis]

They could collab. There was an idea that we could kind of bring together all the. When I say we me bring together the different characters, but the manufacturing is, you know, all of this chat about machine tools. What of the boxer short makers? There's a severe dearth of people who can cut patterns and manufacture boxer shorts at scale. And you know, when we have the kind of Suez crisis meets the Strait of Hormuz meets Covid and all coming together in 20, 30 years time, who will be making the boxer shorts?

[Tom]

There'll be riots. There'll be riots for the final pairs of Saint Pantalone pants. Who's been most interested in these pants? Have any strangers got in touch and say they are.

[Louis]

Well, I've got about 45 orders which I have until very recently been unable to actually meet people, just people who. I have quite a lot of Instagram

[Callum]

waiting for the flax to grow.

[Louis]

So I have quite a lot of Instagram followers.

[Tom]

There aren't any who are trying to buy used pants. They do exist.

[Louis]

There's a premium 50 pounds for a fresh pair, 100 pounds for a used pair. But maybe we can cut a deal here. Maybe Tom and Callan, perhaps you would wear a pair and then sell them

[Callum]

to your family for much less.

[Tom]

Maybe 80 Apple stands here.

[Louis]

But no, the boxer shorts are essentially an aesthetic and industrial experiment that has proven that our problems go much further than the lack of machine tools.

[Tom]

The problem is that, like, it's so difficult to Advertise them because.

[Callum]

What do you mean? Difficult to advertise?

[Tom]

Because they're concealed. It's not like it's a T shirt, Tom.

[Louis]

No one's taking off your trousers.

[Tom]

It's very specific, targeted advertising. Well, no.

[Louis]

Well, I have. So my Instagram following is vast majority women. So I have about 12,000 Instagram followers on the pants project. And it was not explicitly that, but that is kind of what it is at the beginning. And I think maybe 9,000 of them are women. And so they have husbands and sons to buy for and fathers. And a very random lady about 6 months ago got in touch with me, like, I want to buy 10 pairs for all of the men in my life, which actually is about a quarter of my orders, I suppose.

[Callum]

Tom, I don't think you're considering the sort of Calvin Klein branding strategy, you know, with the waistband projecting up above the hem of the waistband of your trousers.

[Tom]

What I would say is that the people who do that have the low body fat percentage that you would not expect in people who are kind of old enough to afford 50 pound boxer shorts.

[Callum]

A good hearty John Bull character,

[Louis]

perhaps. I'm sure you've seen the famous Mark Wahlberg and Kate Moss Calvin Klein advert. If you're the. If you're the. If you're the Mark.

[Callum]

Which one of us. Yeah, which one of us is Kate Moss?

[Louis]

Well, I think purely because Tom is a blonde, he's Kate Moss and you're Mark Wahlberg.

[Callum]

I've often thought this about the two of us.

[Tom]

We'll take it, we'll take it.

[Callum]

I. I know that I've been sort of banging on about this, but do you not think this gets us back to this idea of like, there are groups who have a shared visual language? But the problem is that what was once a sort of purely, well, largely geographic community, I. E. Everyone who was in the same place watched the BBC. That was the possibility of the water cooler moment. Now the problem is that the Internet and immigration and whatever means that the communities with a shared set of values as you. What you talked about was like Alex Karp, you know, and if you don't have a set of shared aesthetic and moral values, all of this falls apart. Then they're now spread. So it's actually less geographic. Right. That the CREF Prize appeals now to a specific type of person in Britain, but also possibly around the world. Whilst there are also to go back to the sort of Pink Panther as Stormzy character. Right. There are different, almost totally separate sets of values.

[Louis]

It's almost as if you're teeing me up to share a 16 page PowerPoint presentation on this very topic.

[Callum]

I actually didn't know that.

[Louis]

I will give you the very. This is not for those who are listening. It's not interesting, but I have a. I will post it on the Internet. It is on the Internet somewhere.

[Tom]

We'll put it in the show notes.

[Louis]

When I was launching my initial project, Nation of Artisans, of which the British Craft Prize is part of it, I was essentially looking at in this hyper fragmented kind of informational cultural landscape, what are the different threads that help us create that shared framework with a very explicit goal of trying to find ways to navigate that fragmentation. And I sent it to Tom. But I have this PowerPoint presentation that I keep on coming back to which is called 16 dreams of Britain, which are essentially it's 16 aspirational visions and kind of aesthetic and cultural universes that

[Tom]

say some of their names.

[Louis]

So I mean they're organized on a kind of two by two, from nostalgic to innovative and aristocratic to punk, which I feel are the kind of defining tension that shape Britain and those that are kind of nostalgic and aristocratic. There is sort of Royal Britain, Twee Britain, Workshop Britain, the workshop of the world. There is a sort of. There's this like maverick Britain of Bond and Shackleton. There's a sort of. I mentioned the Isambard King Brunel of Workshop Britain. There's the kind of just Britain of like whether it is the Royal Courts of Justice or the MCC and good chaps saying what is and is not good cricket. There's sort of literary Britain, there's City Britain. There's silly Britain, which I feel you might not like.

[Tom]

So this is Mr. Blobby.

[Louis]

Mr. Blobby, cheese rolling, Mr. Bean, Monty Python, those weird pictures of Lady Diana, Gareth Southgate and.

[Callum]

And Captain Tom with the psychopomp Paddington Burr.

[Louis]

That's a wonderful thing. I mean I for my money, think this is a wonderful element of Britain. And in many ways you may, as I once sent it to you and you went boo. And I thought you boo. Because Anglo futurism lives here.

[Callum]

Caliban's rage at seeing himself in the glass.

[Louis]

And then there was sort of a rebel Britain, which is like a kind of. Of Vivienne Westwood through and Jeremy, Della and Banksy and all of these people. Then there is new Britain, which I think is what you were alluding to earlier that's got the kind of Stormzy Stab proof vest. Oswald Boateng designing the. Which I think are very fetching. British Airways uniforms. Wales Bonner, Jaslene Carle, who won the Turner Prize. Turner Prize. Kind of putting a doily on a car and wearing an NHS T shirt. I think this is interesting. That's essentially an evolution of Cool Britannia, that sort of stuff. I think it's interesting if it doesn't feel manufactured and it feels kind of authentic.

[Callum]

But no, and I agree, and I think Erin and Tom, you, me and Aaron talked about this, but the point is these are separate. Right. They are pretty distinct cohorts that are not necessarily agreeing on some pretty fundamental, like, aesthetic, moral, you know, values at all. Yeah, right. And they're just talking at totally cross purposes to each other.

[Louis]

Yes. And then so kind of, this is the core of what I've been trying to do, basically trying to find the answer to, not necessarily with success. It's like what, what actually, you know, connects these things. And this is kind of why I came back to artisanship and indeed craft as a sort of binding agent, which is that whatever people are interested in, whether it is Birmingham and the workshop of the world revivalism and all that sort of nostalgia through to cutting edge Silicon Britain, to the sort of cricket, cricket greens and, and Paddington Bear, all of these things are kind of connected to some sort of material culture that always connects to someone making something incredibly well somewhere and putting in a great deal of craft and finding kind of pride, respect, a sense of that person is really committed to making something exceptionally well. Cuts across all of them. I really think that it's like there's the, you know, you could look at, you know, the kind of New Britain and look at, you know, Oswald Burtang, a kind of icon of Cool Britannia, I think a kind of Ghanaian family, I think, I'm pretty sure. But it's also a Savile Row Taylor. He could look at some random cricket bat maker in Somerset and be like, we're the same. Fundamentally, you are committed to your craft or your craft.

[Callum]

And

[Louis]

that sort of, kind of going back to that kind of King Alfred point of like this kind of deep, deep head, hand, eye, mind, bodily, material interconnection to produce excellence. That, that, that with a kind of wacky, eccentric kind of desire to like, kind of put a twist on it is a distinctively British approach to the world. I think perhaps you disagree.

[Callum]

I, I, yeah, I do disagree.

[Louis]

Go for it.

[Tom]

Fire.

[Callum]

I think, I think you, I think you're. I think that, I think this is, I think this is like, quite naive, right? Like, like, surely the, the problem of this and, and you know, and it has always been the case that different groups have maintained like different aesthetic moral values. And you know, historically that might have beat. That was sort of a more religious class based system, you know, that you might have, what would have been kind of old labor values of you know, it's, it's the Valley of work. It's, it's William Morris, it's a sort of romantic socialism, it's the Valley of Work. And then you have, you know, country values and the sort of squirearchy. And I mean, you know the books. The Seed of Albion is a good example of this, of like how these different worlds from Britain go to the New World, go to America and create these like very different and distinct clades. You know, it's the, the Quakers and the Puritans and the Cavaliers of Virginia and the Scots Irish of the Appalachian Mountains. But like I think, I think you are, you are like missing the fact that often these forces are like in opposition to each other. And whilst there can be a sort of pure unity, sort of a sort of. If you really step back and you say, oh well, everyone is making things, the, the values that you are seemingly trumpeting and highlighting and celebrating are surely from, are not universal to this, like to these categories. And I say this deliberately, right, because you know, we were looking through the PowerPoint and, and there was an example there of like Moz Britain, a sort of Morrissey, you know, rebel, like close the borders but you know, let us be crazy and you know, drink 50 pints a night and kind of smoke as many fags as we like. Right? Like surely that, you know, these aren't,

[Louis]

these are like intentional obviously they're in

[Callum]

tension with each other.

[Louis]

Yeah, well of course, I mean that's why they are arranged in attention with each other on a two by two.

[Callum]

Where can you hope for some like synthesis, right? Surely you can say British.

[Louis]

I'm trying to say what's the closest one can get to finding some sort of solidarity, some sort of shared framework around some high status position or some high status fountain of cultural production. It is not Christianity anymore. It is not some vision of Britain as, you know, flab waving, ruling the waves like they're not really strong results. The Second World War is not really a binding narrative anymore. Like if we have the, we may not have the same shared belief, but if we think it is important to create some sort of shared framework that

[Tom]

makes

[Louis]

stories and ideas about you know, being in Britain that, that like more than 50% of the people can identify with as Being. Oh, that's good. Whether, like, surely something in.

[Callum]

Yeah.

[Louis]

The status of, like, solidarity and really, really high, high caliber work.

[Callum]

But do you not think that these, These are. Again, these are signaling. Often these are signaling processes. And there is a kind of winner takes all almost approach here in that, you know, the case of the Turner Prize is. And the choice of who wins, it becomes an almost sectarian question because the group that gets to be awarded is sort of temporarily put on top. In the same way that in Nigeria there's a sort of rotation between the three ethnic groups and you get the Igbo and the Yoruba and they all take turns to sort of loot the state. And the problem is that, that when you have these like, really sort of contradictory, often aesthetic and moral sets of values, it's. It's not enough to just say, oh, I guess we'll get along. Like the point. The point. The problem is when you have a country which is geographically, you know, continuous and homogenous, when you have cultures that are different, there is just a winner takes all and one will win out over another. And there's like, we are in the midst of this, like, real conflict about what the future will be and, you know, demographics and sort of money and capital are sort of fighting at the moment to see which one will win out.

[Tom]

Yeah.

[Louis]

Again, it's interesting. I suppose I'm not in any way trying to position this as the solution. It is a solution. It's an experiment.

[Callum]

But it's a bucket. It's a battlefield. It's a battlefield.

[Louis]

Well, for me, it's an innovation experiment that exists, trying to kind of circumvent the battlefield. I kind of don't care about the culture war stuff. I don't know. The culture war to me has become so boring. And it's like there's these massive questions about moral differences, resource allocation, and these attentions that exist and not going to go away. On a personal level, I'm like, I can't actually solve it. I have no interest in politics in that sense. Okay. But through culture, perhaps there are pathways to do little experiments that lead to more interesting things. And we talked about the kind of the informational environment. Like, there is no common informational environment. The BBC doesn't have the power to move the needle in the same way that it once did. There's a zillion different channels on Instagram and TikTok and nobody is consuming any kind of linear. But maybe, maybe some older people who just like, pick up, you know, the Times, the Guardian Whatever, just read it. But there's no linear media consumption. It's so sort of fragmented and schizoid that, you know, a shared informational environment is not. Is not possible. I'm very. And again, you know, obviously park all the points about like, house building and stuff like that. I'm very inspired by like Ruskin and this idea that, like the material culture and the. The buildings that you surround yourselves in, the things that you see are indicative of philosophies, metaphysics, stories, ideas about how the world is and could be. And Ruskin is obviously very much appears in response to neoclassical, ordered Roman ideal of the world and says, oh, we need to pay attention to the imperfections, the craftsman, the individual and the dignity of labor and all of that. One of my kind of guiding lights, the way that I think about things

[Tom]

is

[Louis]

some people say he's quite obscure, but I think to those that know he's not, is Kenneth Frampton, who was an architectural critic who's I think still alive would be very, very old. But he had this kind of grand theory of. Of critical regionalism, which is he's looking at various buildings and he's motivated by this very specific question that is articulated by a French philosopher theologian called Paul Ricoeur, who says, how do we embrace the universal civilization whilst returning to sources. How do we participate in a kind of globalized society whilst maintaining some sense of rootedness? Now, to me, this is like one of the defining questions of the day. We cannot put the genie back in the bottle, nor would we necessarily want to. Some people obviously do, but in different ways. But there is huge value in participating in the universal culture. But roots a sense of order, a sense of tradition. Not as like, you know, that which lives in a museum, but sustaining the fire is kind of meaningful anyway. Kenneth Rampson, the architect or architectural critic, looks at various buildings and says, ah, these people are using. Again, we're getting quite abstract here, but it's using materials, styles, aesthetics, but also understanding that the future is here, time moves forward. The old ways of solving problems, whether that's like how you build a corridor where you put windows, are probably not suitable, but we can learn from them and think about what are the actual fundamental problems they're trying to solve. And some of the most interesting buildings that have been built in the last few years actually look at the Sterling Prize, the REBA Architectural Awards. So many of the buildings that have won in the last few years really come out of this kind of thinking which is like, how do we root ourselves whilst of participating in Something bigger. Two buildings that I love and I write about in this forthcoming article about kind of Arcadians versus Prometheans. One is Astley Castle somewhere in the north, near Warwickshire. And it's an old, it was a decomposing castle and they were like, oh, what are we going to do? How are we going to sustain this? The Pendragon foundation or that kind of their French equivalent, they would just try to rebuild it exactly as it it is. We don't have the right bricks and it will just look weird and age strangely in their view. And so I think whether Watson man is an architectural studio and they're like, all right, we're actually going to use a similar brickwork but we're going to build a very modern fill in the gaps and it creates this quite amazing building. Another example, Neil McLaughlin, who's just Irish architect who won the Sterling Award last year for Sterling Prize last year for the new library at Magdalen College Cambridge. And he was tasked with Pepys Library, which is this like beautiful library built a few hundred years ago and it's completely not fit for purpose. And he's like, how do I build a library that pays tribute to the aesthetics and the styles here, the kind of brickwork, the wood, the timber, whilst building something thoroughly modern. And it I think works very, very well. You don't like it?

[Callum]

I don't think so. I don't think so because the whole point of this, the whole point is it's like it's a sort of, you know, you pay homage, right? You use a lot of the sort of similar looking materials, you use some of the similar techniques, but it's distinctively modern, right? And with your case of the castle you put the modern in with the old and there's a sort of striking contrast between the two. And that is kind of what is exciting about this. And there was a similar, I think it was a new halls of residence at, I can't remember which college. I think it was a new halls, new sort of quad that was built and it was, you know, it was this very kind of austere flat, square doorways, you know, recessed windows that, you know, that was very out of character with the, the surrounding stone buildings. And I actually think in some ways is almost more offensive because it, because it insists, well it insists upon itself. It like it sets itself deliberately in contrast to the surroundings and almost and makes it celebrates itself over remaining in harmony with the surround, with its own surroundings.

[Tom]

Magdalene Oxford has a building I think that was built in the past 20 years. Or so. And it's exactly the style of some of that older neo gothic stuff to the extent that it could be confused by someone uninformed with one of those buildings. And I think that's a wonderful thing to be adding to those quadrangles. I mean, it's also rumored to be the most expensive building in the world per cubic meter or something.

[Louis]

But I think you also got to think about the actual functions of these buildings. You go into that library. It is amazing. It's like an absolutely amazing library.

[Callum]

I totally agree. I totally agree. You could, but the insides and the outsides are doing two different things. Right? Like, clearly we are much better at making functional internal spaces. And I think, like, I understand. I understand your instinct on this, and I think there is a kind of. There's a. There's a sort of something moral and estimable about it that, you know, we should take inspiration from the. From the local area. And you. You make something that is inspired by but. And yet different. But I think people hate it. I think people really object to it. And I. So I'm not against. I'm not against. I mean, you're about to say it won a lot of prizes.

[Louis]

No, I don't think people. People. It's just not a public building. Right. So it's not like a good example because. Cause the footfall's not there and the students all like it. Cause it's good. And this is the problem when the only institutions that can actually experiment with architecture are like those that are completely sealed off from most people. But I would point you to the International Rugby Union's headquarters. In headquarters or just museum? I think in Ireland, also by Niall MacLachlan, which I think is a very interesting building. People love that. It's a very popular building. I mean, again, I can't say this survey, but it's sort of interesting. Interesting use of brickwork. I think what people hate.

[Callum]

And

[Louis]

the. What was I gonna say? The designer, Thomas Heatherwick.

[Callum]

I was literally about to bring up Heatherwick.

[Louis]

Yeah. Okay. The designer, Thomas Heatherwick, I think. I think is right about. It's just this idea that you have to. Kind of humanizing buildings isn't just giving people old stuff. It's thinking about what are the fundamental needed functions, what are the form factors, what are the potential materials that we can use to kind of deliver on this experience. Whether it is Cauldrop's yard, which I think is divisive, but it's kind of an interesting.

[Callum]

But I think Cold drops. Yeah. Is a success. Partly because of its like. There is a sort of unity of vision and harmony in its, like between its. Its form and its function. Right. Well, whilst I think that. I think the Heatherweight building of. What is it? The new platform, the sort of big Google headquarters that is still in structure.

[Louis]

Yeah, platform, Yeah. I don't remember Platform 37 or something.

[Callum]

Something like that. You know, despite him writing this is like very kind of unhuman.

[Louis]

I've got to say. I've not looked at it in any detail because the hoardings are still up.

[Callum]

Yeah, you can see over the hoardings.

[Louis]

You gotta see what people, once they actually become real. I mean, the. And this is a good way of looping into another topic. The Thomas Heatherwick London bus is a

[Callum]

great inspiration and a great success, I

[Louis]

would say a great success to this very typeface.

[Tom]

So.

[Louis]

So rather than speculatively analyze critical regionalism and how do we embrace the universal civilization whilst returning to sources, I try to actualize this into the process of designing what might be called an Anglo Futurist typeface.

[Tom]

The first.

[Louis]

The first Anglo Futurist typeface, arguably the second Anglo Futurist typeface. Because Faculty AI kind of created this quite remarkable typeface called Faculty Glyphic last year, which is open source and you can all use. And the British Craft Prize and all its branding uses faculty AIs glyphic. But that's kind of basically inspired by, I mean, Albertus and sort of City London street science.

[Callum]

Well, talk us through this font and I'm sort of amused because what you. There aren't all the letters, are there?

[Louis]

We do not have all the letters.

[Tom]

You spelled out Nation of Artisans.

[Louis]

Yes, well, I wanted a kind of typeface to. For a word mark to sort of put on my. On my substack and on my pants.

[Callum]

So what kind of. I mean, looking at that. So we've got Nation of Artisans. What words can we make?

[Louis]

Well, let's first talk through the letters.

[Tom]

There's a charge per letter. If I remember correctly, we have largesse of Tyler Cow. Not such that you can afford a whole Alphabet. Well, if you're listening, please, this man is starving for letters.

[Louis]

I'm starving for letters. No. So we've got the nation. The N of Nation is inspired by two things. One, the British art nouveau with its kind of interesting organic weightings and the back of the Thomas Heatherwick London bus. So readers, perhaps you can Google Nation of Artisans on substack and just look at the text. The N has this interesting weighting that looks exactly like the waiting of the back of the bus. The A is a combination of Albertus from the City of London at the bottom, and then the top is Johnston's from. From the tube. The T and the I are just classical or neoclassical, simple, very angular. The O and the S are kind of William Morris Arts and Crafts derives letters. And the R comes from a kind of gothic, revivable, sweeping R. But crucially, in rejection of the kind of blanding, sans serification of digital aesthetics. I was like, how do you create something that embraces the universal civilization in this example is like what works on the screen, on the algorithm whilst returning to sources, finding a sense of roots and meaning to find something essentially quite new.

[Callum]

But maybe this is. Maybe this is actually a really good way of explaining this, like, tension or problem that I have with you, which is that surely by trying to bring in all of these influences and trying to create something that embraces all of the different forces and the different histories and the different kind of complexities, you create something. And I'm not going to say that it isn't sort of harmonious, but that you create something that cannot achieve the sort of unity of vision.

[Louis]

Well, I mean, you can't go any further than this. I mean, essentially the biggest problem here is like, there's various movements that I would like to include, but this is where I suppose that taste word comes back. There has to be a restraint. You can't actually do it all. Which perhaps means you've snook at me in your word crafts shit.

[Callum]

But do you understand what I mean? That, like, there has to be some guiding principle, some vision of what the good is behind which people can unite to create a pure force and that sheer variety is not sufficient.

[Louis]

Is it possible that I am trying to create the bootiful? The bootiful? I've already shown you the bootiful. I'm trying to create the beautiful without the good and the true. And then maybe there is a sort of intentional. There's an intention of a good that perhaps alludes to some sort of, like, liberal, cosmopolitan values.

[Callum]

Maybe that's. And I would suppose, I would say you're, you know, again, not to be too, like, postmodernist about it, but surely the fact that you hold that up as a good comes from a specific context of your own, right?

[Louis]

Well, yes.

[Callum]

You are not divorced from this, like, process of being part of a group with a set of values and that are implicit in what you're. What you're showing.

[Tom]

Well, I think.

[Louis]

I think it's very true. I mean, that 100%. You're correct there. I mean, like, essentially, like, the thing is, what would be the. What's the archetype? What's the kind of. What's the code? What's the source code that sort of shapes this. Like, there's this absolutely fantastic Japanese kind of postmodern consumer theorist called Hiroki azuma, who in 2000, wrote this very fun 2001, very fun book called Otaku, Japan's Database Animals. And he essentially looks at what happens to a society where you have a. Historically, you'd have a POV. It's 200, 300 years ago. There's a grand narrative and all visual and material about how society is, how it works, what your place in it is. And then all consumer material, visual culture essentially reinforces that story. So let's use a British example. You are a emerging bourgeois merchant in, sorry, in the late 18th century. And you hear about this chap, Josiah Wedgwood, who is making pots and plates and teapots, pots for Queen Charlotte. And they have this sort of classical imagery to them. It's kind of Jasper Ware's particular color. And you're like, ah, I'm gonna. I'm gonna. You know, this Wedgwood can mass produce these plates. I'm gonna buy one of these plates. And, you know, by consuming that object, I am participating in, maybe not consciously, but I'm participating in the kind of, you know, beneath that little kind of surface level, some sort of grand narrative. What Hiroki Azuma says is that the grand narrative has dissolved. There isn't one. And what replaces it is a database of options, and everything that we consume is a fragment of those databases. But, you know, in his. He was writing 25 years ago, but when the database is just like, ooh, some things that I like. And I'm intentionally curating. And this is like, ooh, I really like Otaku. I like this manga character. I really like this manga character. And I like their cat ears. Actually, you know what I really like? Just cat ears in general. Show me cat ears of all sorts. And there's these amazing Japanese databases and search engines that you can look at from, like, 25 years ago. And you could just search train, wheel, cat ear made, not on, like, apron. And people just sort of starting to worship these specific fragments of things that are highly personal to them. And he sees this as indicative of collapse in the grand narrative. And that kind of. The database consumption has taken over. You can take this to its logical conclusion, which is like, where we are now, which is like the database is not only. It's not only just a database, rather than some big, grand solid narrative. Rather, it's a database that is like actively filtering, filtering, reconfiguring and optimized just for you. And you're not even.

[Callum]

And talks back to you in the form of video language or whatever.

[Louis]

You're not even intentionally curating it anymore. And so you're just being like, your attention. And a swarm of production is creating this really unique form of consumption that connects you to nothing and no one other than what provides a sense of, like, bliss to you. That's essentially the landscape that we're operating in. And it's like, that's deeply destructive to the soul or any shared framework. So I think what I'm really trying, I suppose what I'm actually trying to do here. And Angela Nagle, the podcaster scholar, she named her podcast Rossinante after the horse from Don Quixote's horse. And it's like this kind of idea that she's sort of getting at is like, there's certain things where you actually can't solve the problem. You can't actually, systemically, individually, you can't individually solve the problem. Even a small group maybe can't solve the problem. Collectively, we probably can't solve the problem. But what you can do is sort of hopelessly, romantically try and do a thing. And perhaps that leads to something. And I suppose with the Kreft Prize, it's. The view is like, you know, various things. This national question of, like, how do we embrace or national, but just kind of, kind of wider, revealing my deep liberal cosmopolitanism, you know, this sort of sense that how do we return to sources whilst embracing the universal civilization? How do we determine, you know, what to build when we can build anything? How do we uncover entirely new aesthetic and material innovations when the guiding logic is just like, make sort of software and things like that. How do we stimulate material innovation? Those are things that just personally animate me and I think about a great deal. And the prize is really just like, let's see what happens. So I think probably what we've discussed for the last how many hours we've been.

[Callum]

Time is slipping away in the King class.

[Louis]

It possibly has a sort of hubris. Like, there's a hubris to the analysis, as there is in the hubris of the project. The hubris of the project is like, like, let's try and see if we can solve it. The hubris and the analysis is taking that at face value and saying that this is what it's doing, really. It's like it's a lifeboat, it's an experiment and it's trying to kind of pull together various different threads. And most importantly, and I think when we first met Callum, this is, I thought was the most salient thing that I had not appreciated about the Anglo futurist, is for me, this is mostly about fun. If all of these future facing projects are pursued with a dry, you know, kind of redux of like British stiff upper lipism with no joy, it will just fail. You need some fun, you need some riz, you need some magic, you need a little bit of sprezzatura and then perhaps we can change the world.

[Callum]

But

[Louis]

I think it fails if there is no fun.

[Tom]

And meeting Callum, how does this relate to this question of having there is or not? Asking very gently.

[Louis]

Well, it was just very specifically, like we met a few weeks ago, Callum. There was all these people in a room talking about what would be applied Anglofuturism, which I would. Not necessarily intentionally, the British craft prize is. But there was a sort of dispute about whether whether people should be doing projects that are, you know, gonna change the world and change, revive industry. Like, all of that stuff is important, but if everyone is just like depressed and doing it, it's kind of like that. I love two by twos. The Peter Thiel two by two of

[Tom]

like,

[Louis]

pessimistic views of the future. Optimistic views of the future. Definite views of the future, yeah.

[Tom]

Calumnight both read this and then founded the podcast within a couple of months. Oh, really?

[Louis]

Really. Okay, okay, okay. I think about that all the time. Which is like, I think there is probably a strain in Anglo futurist behaviors. Not necessarily your thoughts, but like, of certain people, they're like that. We know what we need to do. We just need to depressingly pursue it. Which is the kind of definite pessimist view of the future, which is like kind of Chinese mentality. It's like, we know we're going to build a bunch of skyscrapers. We know we need to just be able to build and make everything and have powerful factories and vertically integrated supply chains. Let's just do it. There's no joy to that. I think the American, obviously, the definite optimism is where you want to be, but since the 70s, it's kind of still been an indefinite optimism. Still probably a better place to be than a kind of depressing definite optimism. Oh, definite pessimism. But, you know, if you're going back to just the basic question of like cultural, national identity, It's a story the Anglo Saxons. What about the Jutes? The Jute's have played no part in the story of Anglo's accents or Anglo Futurism. The Jutes are a forgotten people. Where is Jute futurism?

[Tom]

Well, if you want to make a very high tech jewel jute bag then you should be entering the Nation of Artisans competition.

[Louis]

Google Nation of Artisans and the British Kreft Prize specifically. And you can win £60,000. When is the deadline? 31st of August. And crucially, if it's not like a spray and pray operation, if you have ideas of things you want to do, get in touch with me and I can introduce you to sort of people who might be able to help you do them. I want to create little teams. It is about fun. It's about creating a little ecosystem of maverick inventors.

[Tom]

You heard the man. Well Louis, thanks for coming on the show.

[Louis]

Thank you for having me.

[Callum]

Thank you listeners. We will be back soon but do subscribe at anglofuturism Co and our producer has told us to remind you that we do have some subscriber only episodes which we realize we've been broadcasting out into the void and not telling anyone about. So you know, if you want to hear even more of us nattering on these ones often just with Tom and I, Tom largely telling me off for, you know, leaving the loo seat up and things like that, do tune in. So thank you very much listeners and goodbye. Sam.