Loading summary
Transcript264 lines
- [00:01]
A
The west is free and with us. The wars are over. One land, one king. Peace. Stand back. Be silent. Be still.
- [00:22]
B
That's it.
- [00:25]
A
And look upon this moment.
- [00:28]
B
Savour it.
- [00:29]
A
Rejoice with great gladness. Great gladness. Remember it always, for you are joined by it. You are one under the stars.
- [00:45]
B
Remember it well then, this night, this great victory.
- [00:53]
A
So that in the years ahead, you can say, I was there that night with Arthur the King. For it is the doom of men that they forget who now has anything to say about the deindustrialization of this country.
- [01:36]
C
Georgian townhouses on the moon.
- [01:38]
A
The highest GDP per capita in the Milky Way.
- [01:40]
C
Small modular reactors under every village green.
- [01:43]
A
This is Anglo futur.
- [01:54]
B
Foreigners.
- [02:01]
C
Welcome back to the anglofuturism podcast. Callum, welcome back to the King Charles III space station. And I must inform our fans, as you perhaps know, a beloved fixture of English society has been on a trip to a former colonial territory. Now, Callum, that's enough about your trip to Singapore, which we will talk about a bit later. But first, some reflections on the King's visit to the United States. We've just watched his speech to Donald Trump. Callum, you didn't like it?
- [02:37]
A
I thought, Tom, you were going to grant me the fig leaf of being able to sort of nod along whilst you enthuse about it. No, I. I didn't like it because I don't share your appreciation for an old king with a twinkle in his eye.
- [02:56]
C
Should we recap some of the jokes for those who haven't watched the whole thing?
- [03:01]
A
Go on, Tom twice hit us with some of the jokes.
- [03:03]
C
Well, there was a prime Anglo futurist moment, as identified by friend of the show, Henry Palmer, when the King was Talking about the Artemis 2 mission, Artemis II as he called it, and he informed Trump that he checked the papers. Unfortunately, the moon was already part of the Commonwealth.
- [03:21]
A
Yeah, I think that.
- [03:22]
C
Okay, that hit the spot for me. I also enjoyed the presentation of the bell from the conning tower of the submarine HMS Trump. Are submarines hms? I suppose they are whatever they are. Anyway, so they had this bell for Trump, which I thought was a great bit of diplomacy. All in all, I think it was a great exhibition of the power of a multi decade head of state who has great articulacy and knows how to charm difficult leaders. And we'll return to some of these themes later perhaps, but whoever wrote his speeches, I think deserves their elevation to the Order of the Garter. He wants him coming in on horseback.
- [04:14]
A
I find so much of this stuff twee and sort of embarrassing. It's the, the King forced to sort of make patter about the Boston Tea Party and Britain's as if he's born
- [04:32]
C
from the after Dinner Speaker Circuit 1812
- [04:35]
A
Attempt to remodel the White House just as Trump is doing. I just, oh, it's, it's pandering to the Americans with their kind of lame post Hamilton revisionist attitudes to the separation of Britain and America. But I said this before we recorded Tom, that I'm such an uber reactionary that anything that doesn't have the King dissolving Parliament, taking his position as an enlightened despot and traveling everywhere in an Apache gunship was unlikely to meet my approval.
- [05:14]
C
Yeah, I mean it's a very poor second, don't get me wrong, to see Charles blazing towards the White House at the head of a cavalcade of gunships just as much as anyone else.
- [05:22]
A
All. Look, I have, I have just been reading the, the biography of Bismarck and a topic that I'm now going to sort of be, become the most annoying man in the world about that Every, every scenario that I can possibly describe in sort of metaphors to do with poor Jesse, you know, Empire Emperor, Emperor William the First of Prussia did this. Don't. You know, and that's why, you know, I think you should give me the last slice of toast. But, but, but I think Bismarck here, renowned as this great diplomat, the core or like foundation upon which his diplomacy and actions were built was his big stick.
- [06:10]
C
And 100%.
- [06:11]
A
I think there's, I think so much of this, like what, what, what caught, what covers for what is what is described as diplomacy these days is the, the dinners, the, the circuits of like speeches to each other with sort of little of substance underneath it.
- [06:33]
C
Yeah, it's dinner party chaser. It's, it's pageantry. Sure. And I think particularly with this capricious White House, the good it will do weren't necessarily lost. I mean, you know, the whiskey tariffs have been, have been removed. Great. I mean one, one positive thing that seems to have emerged is that this leak from the State Department that the US in retaliation for Europe's failure to support its war in Iran might undermine its, or might withdraw its tacit support for us in the Falklands. This seems to have been revised and people in the State Department been briefing to British journalists that actually we're fine.
- [07:16]
A
Well, and actually to be fair, Trump is probably one of the few people where this kind of activity actually does have an impact because his mind can be changed through interpersonal relationships, I suppose.
- [07:36]
C
Yeah. He said this about the whisky. He said that the King hardly took anything with the King to convince him.
- [07:40]
A
I suppose what I'm talking about,
- [07:43]
C
it's a king to king mode of. Mode of behavior.
- [07:47]
A
I think. Yeah, I'm probably referring more to the kind of inter European leaders, the Davos circuit, which is, you know, people going and patting each other on the back. People unworthy of the kind of pageantry that they receive from each other when Starmer goes and is piped into Berlin. To me that feels a bit. A bit of. A bit. Bit pathetic.
- [08:16]
C
But surely. Surely you enjoyed that speech from Charles more than you would start a star making a speech at a similar occasion. Charles is the.
- [08:28]
A
I don't like, I suppose some of
- [08:30]
C
the vestiges of what. What is still great about this country.
- [08:33]
A
No, maybe. I don't. I'm not sure if I would agree with that, actually.
- [08:36]
C
He's not some functionary sent from the HR department.
- [08:41]
A
No.
- [08:41]
B
But.
- [08:41]
A
But the. The promise of the Glorious Revolution or the. The basis of it was that the King or the. The monarch is allowed to kind of appear above politics. I suppose this is a slightly grubby kowtowing that needs to be.
- [09:03]
C
Well, you know, but that. That's where we are. Right. And it may get worse. I assume you read everything that Unherd publishes as a loyal friend.
- [09:13]
A
I read. I read everything you write.
- [09:16]
C
Thank you, Callum. But we had. The newsroom had a piece from Niall Gooch who was responding to Mamdani's refusal to meet Charles one on one. And that is apparently because of the Koh I Noor. So the Mayor of New York has a bee in his bonnet about this incredible diamond that's in the Queen Mother's crown. And I think. I don't know that this is the Indian government's position, but the Indian government
- [09:49]
A
has accepted and has briefed that the Koh I nor they should not agitate for it.
- [09:55]
C
And it actually passed from empire to empire.
- [09:57]
A
Well, no, it was given freely by the Sikh Empire.
- [10:01]
C
He was, was he 12? Anyway, look, this is by the by, it's a sort of game of musical chairs. The music has stopped. The diamond is ours. And be the merits of our ownership of the diamond, as they may, it is, as Nalguch argued, a symptom of our times that Mamdani, the mayor of New York, is espousing this sort of third worldism. And there will come a time fairly soon where the kinship between the US and the UK is much lessened by this incredible demographic churn. We're Going through.
- [10:38]
A
Right.
- [10:39]
C
It's no longer the case that the President is guaranteed to be a wasp. I mean, the fact is most Americans aren't Anglo Saxon anymore. They used to be. Now they're not. If they're a plurality now, it's becoming a much smaller one. So we've got to make the most of this relationship while we can.
- [10:56]
A
Yeah.
- [10:56]
C
That short of like huge remigratory events in both countries, this is about as good as it gets.
- [11:02]
A
That's. That is probably true. There's a. I think it was, I think it was Bovril, Gazelle, Shaft, my prophet and idol, friend of the show, friend of the show who talked about.
- [11:18]
C
I can't remember anything through all of Bovril's tweets about toe sucking and form fitting knitwear to get to the one that he wants us to talk about.
- [11:28]
A
It was, it was a, it was a specific one about an American ship captain coming to the aid of a, a British, a British ship that had been sort of attacked in the Far east and that they sort of recognized that as fellow Anglo Saxons. Oh, here we go. Here we go. At the Battle of the Taku Forts, Josiah Tattenall disobeyed strict orders and came to the aid of a stricken British ship because he couldn't bear to watch his fellow Anglo Saxons being shot at by the Chinese. Every figure from the USA's first century would have happily done the same against Theneda. Theneda is a US Congressman who was kind of engaging in that sort of separatist, as I said, post Hamilton myth of George III as the great Tyrant and America having escaped it, you know, totally ahistorical. You know, actually it was against Parliament or whatever, but I think you're right, and actually I was talking about this with a friend that whether Britain or America will become less Anglo faster. Because I was struck, because I was, I was recently in San Francisco and I think I've told you about this. The, the real sense you get. Well, well, that I got when I was out there of a kind of relaxing of rules whereby you felt that there was kind of less of a dead hand on your shoulder. And this is, this is. Maybe this is all kind of. I spoke to the taxi driver kind of journalism, but it was things like going into a, going into a cafe and when asked if you wanted milk in your coffee, they just handed you the jug and you could kind of pour as much as you wanted and then you handed the jug back. Which is a very kind of human interaction that in a country where,
- [13:41]
B
you
- [13:41]
A
know, you have your health, your government health, Health and Security Agency rating on the front of your, of your door. That ranks you 1 to 5. That sort of thing would I'm sure, incur demerits and would therefore see you be punished. So I wonder whether what will diminish faster right, from the Georgian carousing liberal country when you get this fork, whether the spirit of, that of freedom will be extinguished faster in the US or in Britain. Because we've fallen from that, far from that as well.
- [14:24]
C
Oh, I mean, we're electing openly sectarian mps now.
- [14:29]
A
But I, I, but I say, I say it not, not purely as a demographic thing. I say it just like as a values thing. Right. That if you take, if you take liberalism and the idea, ideas surrounding the rule of law, a restrained government that allows people to exist as they wish, that is a unique and remarkable invention that has changed the world and it would be a shame if that vanished and it is under pressure. And I appreciate this is maybe not our sort of traditional position, but it would be a shame if that vanished. And I could see there are sort of different pressures on it both in the US and in the uk.
- [15:11]
C
Is it not already gone? Are there any true libertarian countries that still exist?
- [15:16]
A
I do think libertarian is the right way of describing it.
- [15:20]
C
Well, liberal, liberal in the classic sense.
- [15:23]
A
I think there are still, there are liberal elements to Britain and there are liberal elements to America. I mean, maybe actually, and maybe this is the sort of thing that we
- [15:34]
C
don't live in the society where. I can't remember which historian put it this way, but your only interaction with the state would be the occasional nod at the local beadle or posting a letter. That would be it. That was pre First World War.
- [15:50]
A
Yeah, I think this stuff, I think this stuff is often overdone in that.
- [15:53]
C
Well, no, we live, we, we live in a, in, in a huge bureaucracy now. Sure, sure.
- [15:58]
A
But, but I think to say that the state did not have like a significant presence in the life of the people is slightly incorrect. Right. If, if, I mean, obviously we are, we're really being very haphazard with our dates here, but if the, if the state can execute you for stealing a loaf, state can press you into, into service in the Navy, if the state has, you know, the right to censor theater and you know, charge you with all sorts of crimes based on your kind of sexual and earlier. Right. Religious activity, that is, that is not actually super liberal. So in some ways we are much more liberal. In other ways we are much, we are, we are It's a very different type of state.
- [16:50]
C
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, I totally agree. Not going to get press ganged. Might end up in court for tweeting about immigration intemperately.
- [17:02]
A
Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's just a very different type of state. And I think, you know, the libertarian angle on this stuff is frankly deluded and, you know, falls into that category of nice ideas, but, you know, not necessarily that historically justified.
- [17:25]
C
We've strayed some way from our discussion of the King's visses. I think the final thing to say is that we're, you know, we're very glad the hint of the King feeling acquisitive towards the moon. We fully endorse this.
- [17:43]
A
Yes. I think what we have to hope though is obviously there are two routes into the Commonwealth. One is as an ex imperial possession, which is a good way, and there's a worse way, which is as Rwanda has done, which is joining for a kind of vague cultural activity. Vague cultural sense. I'm very clear about the way that I would prefer the moon's accession to go.
- [18:08]
C
Well, I think we're. And this is another massive tangents and I hope we can return to this for a full episode. But I think for a long time there's been a taboo in international law against saying that's mine. And that has been upheld pretty scrupulously by, you know, by and large by almost every country in the world. It's very unusual and a great disturbance in. It's a great disturbance in the palace of international law when there is a war over territory, for instance. But a very interesting thing is going on at the bottom of the Pacific Ocean. I think I was banging onto you about this the other night. Do you remember what's going on at the bottom of the Pacific Ocean?
- [18:57]
A
Is this the undersea mining?
- [19:00]
C
Yeah, the nodules.
- [19:01]
A
Go on, tell me about the modules.
- [19:02]
C
Yeah, no, it's actually really interesting. So at the end of the 60s, a Maltese delegates at the UN got up and gave a speech to the General assembly and basically said that the. And he'd seen as many people had, that there was more an incursion of greater human activity into the oceans, including the deep oceans. So oil and gas activity and laying subsea cables and. And exploring the mineral reserves that might be there. And he was basically saying we need to nip this in the bud. He said the high seas should be the common heritage of all mankind. Sounds pretty nice, right? It's that.
- [19:48]
A
Well, it would sound nice to other people. I've recently come round to the Idea that there is literally nothing scarier than a liberal coming over the horizon towards you.
- [19:57]
C
Well, this is the thing, because if you're a third world diplomat, you hear the phrase common heritage of mankind and you're like, whoopee, handouts. And if you're an American diplomat, you've got your head in your hands because you know that your country is going to be the one giving the handout. So from that point, the UN was slowly moving towards regulating deep sea mining. And the amazing nodules, layers of metal which build up over tens of millions of, of years. And they're full of the kind of stuff that's very useful in electric batteries. And the floor of what they call the Clarion Clipperton Zone, which is about the size of Western Europe and the Pacific, is littered with this stuff. It's like a potato field.
- [20:36]
A
So these are these. Actually, surely these aren't metallic metal. They're in their oxides. They're like ores, right?
- [20:43]
C
They are, they are, yeah. But at this point, the concentration of copper that is yielded by most copper mines is so much lower than it used to be that it might make economic sense to go down there, get even copper.
- [20:54]
A
Very interesting.
- [20:56]
C
But the point that I'm working towards is that the un, resolved in. The UN has been trying in some shape or form since the late 60s, early 70s to at least make plans to regulate deep sea mining. And there's been a kind of moratorium on it since.
- [21:12]
A
Well, I mean, the only memory that I have of deep sea mining or sort of time that I've come across it was in, in reference to this idea of banning it because, you know.
- [21:22]
C
Because Greenpeace hate it.
- [21:23]
A
Well, yeah, because you trawl but. And it throws up a whole load of dust. Right?
- [21:27]
C
It doesn't. This is part, this is part of, this is part of the problem because it throw up, it throws up plumes of, of sediment and this, this interferes with the, with the wildlife in. Towards the bottom of the ocean.
- [21:43]
A
Yeah, because it blocks, it sort of blocks the sunlight and also.
- [21:46]
C
Well, sometimes they feed on it, sometimes it kicks up. Not much is known about this because mining actually hasn't been done. And that's, that's basically because there's this body that the UN set up to regulate it. The International Seabed Authority has still hasn't finished deciding how to regulate it. So this is now.
- [22:03]
A
How long is that?
- [22:04]
C
This is more than 55 years since we're getting close to 60 years.
- [22:09]
A
Most efficient UN department.
- [22:11]
C
And so under President Trump, the US who'd never become part of the International Seaboard Authority because there's concern about handouts and a few other things. They said no more of this. We ourselves are going to issue mining permits. And so they've now started the process of doing that themselves for the Clarin Clipperton zone. And the reason I find this so interesting is that the. The age of saying that's mine now appears to be back.
- [22:39]
A
Wait, so this is. And this is in international waters. So there is no. This isn't like in the territorial waters of any country.
- [22:46]
C
Yeah, so I'm just going to point to that. So in here in the King Charles III space station, we have a map of the British Empire in 1886. I'm just pointing out to Callum roughly where the CCZ as it's called is. It's in the. In the Pacific to the west of America. So I.
- [23:04]
A
On our map, on our app listeners, this is sort of hidden behind a howdah from mounted.
- [23:11]
C
Emerging from behind. Yeah, a mounted elephant with a memsahive atop it. And Japan is now in league with the States and they're doing their own kind of mining of subsurface of subsea mud close to where they are. But I mean, you know, I. Why the hell did I bring this up? Yes, I bring this up because the king's comments about the moon and it's clearly not a serious territorial playwright, but my sense is that the great game is back.
- [23:46]
A
It's an interesting point because again, I will return to my discussion of Bismarck,
- [23:53]
C
but I feel like this is what it must be like to be Jesse Callum's girlfriend.
- [23:59]
A
Well, Tom, I think, you know, you, given that you are my landlord, probably see just as much if not more of this than her. So potentially she is spared because, you know, I know that I can. I can dump this kind of stuff on you.
- [24:13]
C
He's either snoring or talking about Bismarck.
- [24:15]
A
It's one of the two ideal man.
- [24:20]
C
I'm sorry, ladies. She's taken. Bismarck has even crept into the Flashburn novel that I've been reading recently. Cannot escape the man.
- [24:31]
A
He's everywhere. He's everywhere.
- [24:33]
C
Well, I've got. I've got my own. My own copy of that biography as well now. So we're both become Bismarck bores by
- [24:39]
A
the time we next record Bismarck Boys. But the reason I raise it is because Bismarck is obviously at the center of sort of huge, huge political upset and transfer of territory between nations that supposedly post west failure. This doesn't happen in Europe anymore. Everyone's very nice to each other. And we all recognize the right of all the other nations and states to exist. But what is so striking about Bismarck is, and maybe just this period more generally is until really quite recently, this was not a accepted fact. So people have probably heard about the Franco Prussian War as the sort of precursor to the First World War and the loss of Alsace Lorraine. But there were vast, vast transitions and transfers of territory. Just the German unification alone with things like Schleswig Holstein, the kind of swallowing up of bits of the Rhineland, the elimination of the kingdoms of Saxony and Hanover, and then all the smaller German principalities. It's remarkable just how rare this period of states existing as consistent entities with fixed borders.
- [26:12]
C
Yeah, well, I think we'll really miss it when it's gone.
- [26:14]
A
Yeah. And so I think, you know, whilst. Whilst it is kind of easy to think that, ah, well, the only way that we can regain a sort of frontier or acquisitive sentiment is by going where it was previously impossible to go, I. E. Space or the bottom of the ocean.
- [26:38]
C
Aren't you forgetting something?
- [26:39]
A
Or Antarctica. Or Antarctica. Actually, Tom, I was laughing. I was laughing as you were. As you were kind of pointing at the map that, you know, having. Having become kind of an expert in Antarctica, you've now decided on a new esoteric and obscure thing to become kind of the world expert on.
- [26:56]
C
I. I am actually flabbergasted by how little people care about the Clarin Clipperton Zone.
- [27:05]
A
Try saying that again. Say that again with a straight face.
- [27:07]
C
I'm gonna look her in the eye. Boys don't understand. Where was I just transported back to all the conversations with women who just say, why won't you stop banging on about Antarctica?
- [27:27]
A
First dates just marred, I think, actually. Yeah, I think, Tom, you're very quick to accuse me of being a. Being a pub boar, of being a Bismarck boar.
- [27:42]
C
Different strains of autism. I fear. I mean, what I did. I fear that the podcast just devolved into both of us saying autistically like. But what I was about to say was each reversing to our prior idea of what the conversation should be. I want to just trail one exciting thing about it. I'm just gonna dangle it so that we can return to this in a future episode. I actually want people to listen to the CCZ episode. Britain. Britain feigns diplomatically to be all in favor of the kind of, you know, we must be very careful. We must regulate this properly. But has sponsored two licenses for the ccz and there's a company that the UK has sponsors to have a, to have an exploration license and this company is hoping to get an actual mining license from the Isaac. And I spoke to the CEO and this will be in an article and I hope a podcast episode at some stage. So there is a crack of hope that the young British adventurer having set up his diamond mines, his diamond mine in Antarctica could then go to the CCZ and launch a mining operation.
- [29:02]
A
Metallic potato digging.
- [29:04]
C
Yeah. So you know the King is wisecracking about this stuff and we're not going to be the first of the moon. But you know, as I said before, there are frontiers in this world and if one consequence of the weakening the rules based international order is that frontiers return, I think in this specific instance that could be a very exciting thing.
- [29:26]
A
Yeah, no, I would agree with that.
- [29:30]
C
Should we go for break, play you listeners an ad or something and then return for part two?
- [29:38]
A
That sounds.
- [29:38]
C
And part two will be your Holly
- [29:40]
A
Bobs my my smutty postcards and dirty weekend in Margate.
- [29:46]
C
All right, we'll be back for part two.
- [29:51]
B
And now at 2300 the interplanetary shipping forecast issued by the Interplanetary Meteorological Office under farm of the Anglo Futurist podcast. There are silver flare warnings for Mercury bank, the New Zealand Wisps, the Strait of Shackleton, the Jovian news Saturnian rings and the Dogger Bank Yukon. The General Synopsis at 1200 Coronal Mass Ejection 2 million miles out from Sol is band of bravo Magnetic Compression Series Sector 984 Moving slightly outward towards Jupiter. And now the area forecasts for the next 24 hours. Venusian clouds Proton plus 5 to 7 extreme or very extreme thermal load high energy particles at first meaning daytime otherwise heavy iron showers. Visibility Moderate or good. Location 4 In subdivision Casecraft uses device to place windows the southern lights. High energy particles cause vivid aurora over snow on the world from 4am Airships advise proceed at normal in joint shift asteroid belt and 7 visually neutral showers of debris Solar wind high the helix that if you're going on a long journey pack water, food and blankets deep carrying rules interstellar wind gale 46 hedwigs r callisto IO and gang over following 48 hours power cuts expected on Europa. The British Consulate will be donating SLRs to the Europas rains of Saturn Very high cosmic radiation at first in meeting heights otherwise very rough or high gamma bursts and plasma snow transit to the effect will be manifested.
- [31:53]
C
Listeners, welcome back to King Charles III space station where Callum has been playing a little slideshow of pictures from his Holly Bobs. Callum where did you go? And you are going to be playing out to a stereotype.
- [32:12]
A
Well, yes, I, unfortunately, unfortunately to my, to my sort of great chagrin. Chagrin. Chagrin. Chagra.
- [32:28]
C
As a, as a Frenchman, Callum is trying to give the impression that he doesn't understand the language perfectly.
- [32:37]
A
I, I, I didn't, I didn't go and have a dirty weekend in, in Margate and Brighton and buy some smutty postcards. Instead I went on a inter hemisphere journey to Singapore to, to sort of inquire what was up and you know, having, having seen enough videos of lky talking about having a sort of iron rod in him to see, to see whether the myth was all that.
- [33:14]
C
I like to think that the plane trip to Singapore is much like the plane trip to Turkey. Famously. Of course the from Turkey have to have these like English men on the way. They've got their, like Norwich like 24 and then, and then on the way back they've got this like white padding and they're kind of bleeding because they've all had their hair transplants and like maybe they've had their teeth done as well. So my guess, the flight of Singapore is, it is like absolutely full of like Adam Smith Institute types with their, like Hayek under their, under their arm. Under one arm and the under the other arm is like From Third World to First by Lee Kuan, which is, which has been on my bedside table recently, I confess.
- [34:00]
A
And then untroubled by. Untroubled by any reading.
- [34:05]
C
I tend to have Flashman on the other bedside table. So which is the one that's more attractive as a man is about to go to sleep? It's Flashman.
- [34:14]
A
Well, Tom, obviously on the return, as you said from Turkey, the men have their turkey teeth and scabbed heads and the women kneel on their seats with their Brazilian bum lifts because they can't sit down. What would you imagine the Haykeans look like on the way back? What would be your guess?
- [34:37]
C
I like to think that they've accidentally just through coming from a disordered country, a disordered third world country like the UK at the moment, they've accidentally committed an infraction or two while in Singapore. Maybe they accidentally played the first couple of seconds of voice notes out loud on the table or something and then I assume that the low constabulary swept down on them and beat them and so, and so these poor Max Marlowe types are perhaps you know, limping onto
- [35:08]
A
the, limping onto the shape similarly, similarly to the Brazilian butt lift. Ladies also have to Kneel on their seats for their, for their sore behind.
- [35:19]
C
Is this correct?
- [35:22]
B
It's.
- [35:22]
A
I, I don't think it is unfortunately. I think actually has the magic gone? Singapore. Singapore struck me as a remarkable place that is now haunted by the sort of the ghost of, of its founder. And I mean, you know, similarly this applies to Bismarck but this also applies to people like Ataturk. It applies to Charles de Gaulle that there is this fascinating, fascinating process by which when he was alive he didn't have as much of a cult of personality. But actually now after his death he is being turned into a real father of the nation. And, and you know my going there was part of this kind of project because I was invited as part of the sort of political fact finding mission and the kind of very, and this is, this is my sort of view, you know, the very historically contingent behaviors. So things like the extremely strict ethnic quotas for social, the sort of 80% social housing of Singapore, meaning that you can't have just Chinese or just Malay housing blocks or
- [36:55]
B
the
- [36:57]
A
pivoting of like initially clamping down on the use of the Chinese language and then you know, really turning hard and actually re promoting it. All of this kind of messy stuff is taken, is either ignored or taken out of the context that it emerged from. You know, Lee Kuan Yew is in many cases, I mean originally he was a Fabian socialist, right? And is instead becomes a, you know, sort of sanitized Lee Kuan Yew thought that can then be implemented across the world. You know, Saudi Arabia, 2030 references it. Kagame in Rwanda, friend of the show references it. I wouldn't be surprised if Bukele referenced it. And I do wonder, I really wonder to what extent Singapore will be able to move beyond this legacy that whilst this might have worked in like a period of international liberalism and global like global liberalism, to what extent this attitude and some of the stuff like some of the actions that kind of actively like and like preventing the creation of like oh the like process of ethnogenesis, I. E. You know a true Singaporean people emerging are like kind of hindered because the decisions that were like useful when this was a totally New State, what 60 years ago, are now no longer adaptive. And actually you know, things like the extremely strict ethnic quotas, I. E. Everyone on their identity card is gathered into either Chinese, Indian, Malaysian or other and the relative ratios of these groups are kept consistent over time. I do wonder whether some of this stuff actually becomes anti useful and actually the continued adherence by Singaporean politicians to this model might actually become dangerous. It was a real kind of question of mine when I was out there.
- [39:17]
C
Well, it's interesting because the, the People's Action Party, as I understand it, is still in power.
- [39:22]
A
Well, it's never been out of power. Right.
- [39:24]
C
Well, exactly. It's never been out of power. And as you like to say on this podcast, Cthulhu always swims to the left and they have become a little, a little woker, as I understand it.
- [39:36]
A
They have, they have, they've just brought in a sort of piece of anti discrimination legislation for workers. And it's a sort of interesting process. Very similar, dare I say, to our good friend Bismarck, who also, you know, despite being an arch reactionary, found himself forced to bring in unemployment insurance and some form of Social Security network that still forms the basis of the German welfare state today. So I think it's an interesting process. And maybe this is actually, that's a kind of argument against, that's evidence to the contrary or against what I'm saying because maybe that's the, that's an example of, in a sort of Spenglerian sense, a nation growing up and going through this like, process of developing.
- [40:27]
C
What does it look and feel like when you were there? Was it all like gleaming skyscrapers? As the legends foretell,
- [40:36]
A
it's somewhat gleaming skyscrapers. So there are specific areas that are very, very skyscraper.
- [40:44]
C
I imagine it's all very built up.
- [40:46]
B
It is.
- [40:47]
A
In some places it's actually less so. I mean, it is remarkable. But they're not, they're not all kind of glass skyscrapers.
- [40:54]
C
But the Raffles statue's still there.
- [40:55]
A
There are two statues of Raffles, two
- [40:57]
C
types of Raffles which, which lky kept.
- [40:59]
A
Yeah. On the advice of this Dutch economist called Albert Vincemius who was there for, for decades. He was there for decades and kind of, you know, he's very, very influential in saying, look, if you go to post colonial, HSBC isn't going to want to stick around.
- [41:19]
C
Well, at the time when lky took power, they really needed the support of the British military. Britain was withdrawing quite fast. Well, they knew they were totally defenseless.
- [41:29]
A
But again, this stuff is interesting, right, because he was sort of supposed, you know, he's technically a post colonial leader and I don't think his views on Britain, which are now kind of set in stone. As you know, Lee Kuan Yew always accepted the British heritage and his decision to welcome multinational corporations was in place from the start. You know, the sort of traditional view of Lee Kuan Yew thought you Know was not necessarily a given.
- [41:59]
C
Does it feel remotely formally English?
- [42:03]
A
It's a very good question.
- [42:05]
C
I mean, my, My sense is that all this stuff recedes quite quickly.
- [42:08]
A
So I would, I would say so I spent some time living in Hong Kong and so that's where my kind of comparisons are drawn from.
- [42:17]
C
And I mean, Honkers was much more recently a British possession. Yeah.
- [42:21]
A
And Hong Kong, interestingly, feels a lot more modern. And I was there, you know, over 10 years ago, but still I would have said that Hong Kong feels way, sort of more glass and steel and hyper modern. What like. And, you know, and there's. There are two very interesting examples of, you know, the, the. The Hong Kong administration for a long time refused to collect statistics about what was actually happening in Hong Kong because they felt that when you have statistics that might encourage you to meddle in the affairs of your people. Really, really hands off attitude which compared to Singapore, that gathers our government just
- [43:06]
C
cannot compile the statistics. It's not that they're suppressed. They generally don't know who's coming in
- [43:10]
A
and out and actually would prefer to act without the statistics because the statistics might reveal unfortunate realities that wouldn't align with. With political expediency. But so, yeah, Singapore. Singapore, I think, feels very interestingly like less modern, more unique in that respect. I think there is something very difficult about building in very hot environments that makes all buildings, like, degrade faster.
- [43:40]
C
Interesting. I mean, instead, why, of course, said that. Didn't you say something along the lines of the single best thing he did for Singapore, just getting air conditioning installed.
- [43:51]
A
Yeah.
- [43:52]
C
Actually work indoors.
- [43:53]
A
Yes. That without air conditioning, it's really quite.
- [43:55]
C
I mean, I suspect it's quite good for a growing country for their building stock to have some sort of. To decay basically, to kind of force you to rebuild.
- [44:07]
A
I think this is a very, very interesting point and I've been. I've been dwelling on this idea recently of like the hypernisiac, which is the opposite of an amnesiac. So people who are unable to forget because the digital record and conservation and other forces mean that history is unable to recede into the distance. And instead, actually you are permanently at the kind of mercy of a. I think what some sociologist, I can't remember his name refers to as like a chosen glory. So for us that would be kind of the Second World War. You are forever stuck with the Second World War, like, in the background.
- [44:51]
C
It's like how the sink is forever caked in the remnants of your noodles from the night before.
- [44:56]
A
Tom. But I would regard that as a living tradition rather than a dead one. Because every night I reaffirm and rebuild those noodles. I remake them rather than preserving the ashes of my ancestors.
- [45:20]
C
The worship of fire.
- [45:25]
A
So, so no, but, but, but at the same time it is remarkable. It is remarkable the, the, the being there. Again. I think there's a whole load of questions. To what extent is it riding a demographic boom? Demographic? I think last year the TFR was 0.87. Oh yeah.
- [45:43]
C
Which I mean after all the work lky did to ensure that the most intelligent female graduates had the most children. I, yeah, well, I mean only so long you can defy, defy gravity.
- [45:55]
A
It's a. Yeah, it was a, it's a failure. Right. And there's this very interesting tension whereby because you have to maintain these ethnic ratios and the Chinese majority kind of 75% have fewer children than the Malay or Indian sections. The. They have to bring in more Han Chinese which then obviously creates more tension because they have not necessarily gone through this sort of similar process of Singaporeanization that, that the, you know, people who've grown up there have, which, which I have, I must say is very strong.
- [46:34]
C
Did you speak to many Singaporeans?
- [46:35]
A
We spoke to, we spoke to a number of Singaporeans. There is a, it is, it is remarkable how things that to us appear sort of extremely heavy handed. So be that, you know, the sort of profusion of initiatives all described by, you know, kaleidoscope of acronyms are sort of proudly referred to as core parts of the state. And you know, the, the phrase we are a multi ethnic, multi racial, multi language, multi religion nation, just repeated as this new, I mean, mantra. Mantra to me sounds like something you would do to almost deny an uncomfortable reality. I think it is remarkable to the extent to which this has been an effective process of state building in 60 years.
- [47:38]
C
Are you saying that diversity is our strength, is actually something that we should live by?
- [47:43]
A
No, no, I'm not, I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is that. And Hobs Born talks about this, about how many of the traditions that we in the west think of as kind of ancient and perpetual are, are not as ancient as. So they are made out.
- [48:07]
C
You're coming across very Otto English. I'm expecting you to say, oh, fishing fish, that fish was foreign or, or, or you know, some sort of lies to the effect that St. George was not a kind of beer swilling football lad from, from the Midlands who loved a pint, loved fish and chips, loved going to the bookies.
- [48:29]
A
I think as with so many of these cases, the correct answer is the left wing critical theorists are correct in their description, but wrong in their prescription. That is, they correctly describe the reality that many sort of Victorians remade a lot of what we think of as ancient.
- [48:53]
C
Yes. And I think sometimes they will make similar diagnoses of whole countries and say. And this I think does veer into fiction. But they will say things like, oh, there's always been immigration, it's never been kind of homogenous, and this is part of a conscious or unconscious demoralization campaign, one might argue. And equally, and I think with some validity, a cultural critic might say, of something like Morris dancing or near Gothic architecture, both equally important pillars of Englishness. They might say the Victorians just invented this stuff like it was pastiche. Yes, to an extent it is pastiche. But what the Victorians did was lovingly draw together the remnants of those parts of culture that were in decline and then reunited them to pass us something that is far richer than what would have been possible had they invented something from scratch.
- [49:50]
A
Yeah, I think this is. I think this is very true. And this is what I mean by that.
- [49:53]
C
Incorrect is a continuous thread from the Druids through Morris dancing to us. It's very kind of wavy.
- [49:59]
A
Yeah. And as Orwell says. Right.
- [50:02]
C
Anyway, time for our stick tracking and bell ringing.
- [50:10]
A
Yeah, as Orwell says. Right. How are you the same. How is the nation the same like now as it was 100 years ago? In the same way that you are the same as you were when you were a child.
- [50:19]
C
Isn't that Bertrand Russell?
- [50:21]
A
No, that's Orwell.
- [50:22]
C
I think the line in the Unicorn, he pinched it from Bertrand Russell and Bertrand Russell is talking about personal identity.
- [50:27]
A
Yeah.
- [50:27]
C
I think, you know, the picture of him as a child, the only thing I have in common is that he is me.
- [50:32]
A
Yeah, exactly, exactly. But. But I think as I say, the, the prescription is wrong in that you should take this as a useful bit of information, but as you say, draw on the past affectionately and remake it to be fitter for the current mode. I mean, I think you and I went and saw the HMS Pinafore together. Yeah, we did the Gilbert and Sullivan.
- [51:00]
C
Yeah, with. With Pamela, friend of the show with.
- [51:02]
A
With Pam. And I think I was struck by how slow it was in that.
- [51:11]
B
The.
- [51:12]
A
If you watch a lot of modern musical theater, it's so, so fast in that the. There. There are no beats between the songs. Every. Every single moment of space and time is filled with some thing to grab your attention. And it got me thinking about, you know, what, how, what can we learn from this? And I think the answer is we need a sort of Singaporean project of hyperculture in that we need to be able to take the fragments of the
- [51:45]
C
past, clips of Gilbert and Sullivan, speed
- [51:49]
A
it up to two times, raise it up to two, two octaves and have Pink Pantheris wrap over the top. But, but, but, but like, you know, we have to, we have to adapt, we have to go forward. Things have to be made vital. And the people who kind of cling on to the old ways, I'm afraid, betray the lessons of LKY and Bismarck because they, they fail to recognize that like the world has changed and if you just aim for a kind of continuation, as you know, as the Red Queen says, you have to run as fast as you can just to stay still.
- [52:32]
C
I think what you're describing is kind of stuck in the mud conservatism and nostalgism, which I think is a not wholly invalid response to the amount of change that's happened over the past century or so culturally. I can see how it made perfect sense for your reaction to be you just turn back the clock, no more change. But you are right, a truly vital society can, can move forwards. I mean, do you have any examples of forward facing hyperculture. Yeah. That you would like to instill? Yeah.
- [53:08]
A
Methodism. No, and I say it with my tongue. Actually, I'm not, I'm not actually, I'm not actually going to be, I'm not going to put this down. Charles Wesley should be considered the Pink Pantherus of his time.
- [53:24]
C
Why is that?
- [53:25]
A
Because he took Anglicanism that had sort of ceased to be relevant to the urban and kind of deracinated workers newly, newly come in from the cities which let's be honest, that is surely far greater of a cultural upset than, you know, oh no, we've got smartphones now. This is a whole, whole like total change of your way of life. And using song and using like basically updated and modern sermonizing and methods and tools was able to perpetuate and revitalize Anglicanism. And then obviously, you know, they branched off and made some mistakes. But, but I think, I think there is a, there is a real lesson there. So I mean I, you know, to apply this here with hyperculture. Well, I'll refer first to an example of it that I think I saw in Singapore which was a dance performance or sort of so called.
- [54:31]
C
Oh, I haven't, I haven't noticed the sexy dancing hijabis. Did you mean to put that in the show?
- [54:38]
A
Notes it's just a sort of helpful mnemonic tool,
- [54:46]
C
Internet history.
- [54:49]
A
But we watched this sort of so called kind of Malaysian cultural dance and when we went and watched it, it was like reggaeton playing, like sped up reggaeton women kind of, you know, women and men dancing each other on the stage, you know, wiggling their hips around in what is sort of highly limbic performance.
- [55:15]
C
Exotic gyration.
- [55:16]
A
Exotic gyration, exactly. That should be kept solely for when one is horizontal. But, but even then. Even then, even, yeah, exactly. But, but, but what was so interesting about it was they were dressed in kind of culture like cultural and traditional outfits which allowed it to be palatable, I think, to a otherwise fairly conservative and not, you know, quite reactionary population sort of of Malaysian Muslims. Right. And you had hijabi women kind of cheering and screaming for you know, at every hip thrust and bum wiggle. The, the, the, the, the, the pitch of the screams went ever higher. So I think it's a, it's a really interesting example of how modernity can be sort of garbed in traditional wear and be accepted really smoothly.
- [56:19]
C
Yes, I see. I was fearing that the point you were tending towards was the British caliphate won't be that bad. They'll be gyrating hijabis. But I see what you're saying.
- [56:29]
A
Yeah, no, and I think actually that sort of stuff of like British Muslims becoming more fundamentalist is actually a sort of anti. React is a reaction to this because it's, it's a, as many British Muslims do find that the rapidly secularizing and modernizing Middle east means that they feel kind of really at sea and instead have to become more fundamentalist as a way of kind of coping with being removed from a genuine lineage. Which means they're having to be kind of like Protestant effectively.
- [57:04]
C
But I think also many of the Pakistanis who've come here were from the most rural and one might say backward parts of Pakistan. That doesn't help either.
- [57:14]
A
Well, let's, you know, Tom, let's, let's not, let's not play down the genuine cultural innovations. How good do you reckon driving an Audi R3 and huffing on laughing gas from a balloon feel? Incredible. So don't knock it until you try it. But I think, but I think like this, it's just an interesting example of like how you can force a state into being. And actually the people who kind of turn against this stuff and think, oh no, Britain has never engaged or used these methods, I think potentially are going to have to accept that it's Necessary in a modern bureaucratized world. If you can get your cultural practice, however fake and gay it is, onto the UNESCO heritage or list of intangible cultural artifacts becomes more real than things that aren't.
- [58:14]
C
Progressives do it all the time, but it's part of culture, so. So we don't really notice. Yeah, it stands up more when there's other countries, you know, doing like land acknowledgments.
- [58:23]
A
So I think. Yeah, exactly, exactly. So I think it's a.
- [58:25]
C
And then it actually becomes ceremonial.
- [58:27]
A
It becomes ceremonial. It becomes totally accepted and you know, it only takes sort of 20 years before a generation of schoolchildren have been taught at primary school that this is just what we always do.
- [58:39]
C
They will feel nostalgic about it.
- [58:41]
A
They will feel it doesn't take long. Exactly, exactly. So I think, I think people need to be extremely honest about the tools that can be used here and recognize that a sort of reactionary Britain, we will never return to a 50s, but you could have a Britain that feels more British or less British if you're willing to use the tools of state formation.
- [59:12]
C
One of the other things I want to ask you about regarding Singapore is what we can learn from it economically. I suppose there's this impression that it's a very free market kind of place where of course the reality is that LKY was very interventionist and that the state builds loads of housing. So I wonder what the lessons might be in that regard given that Singapore overtook us long ago in terms of GDP per capita. I wonder whether there's still lessons to be learned.
- [59:45]
A
Yeah, I think we have to be careful when discussing Singapore because it is fundamentally a city state and I don't think we would look to say Monaco or Hong Kong or Luxembourg necessarily for. Or the Vatican for. No potpourri for. For examples on how to sort of run our. Run our state, our government. Because. Because it wouldn't, it wouldn't make sense. The real answer of Singapore, and as I've sort of mentioned about this idea of like a, an ideology of a great leader ossifying into a dogma is that the thing you can learn most from Singapore is you have to be flexible to exigent conditions. That the success of Lee Kuan Yew is his ability to look around and act decisively in response to trends that he saw taking place. I think that to me, and I said, you know, he pivoted multiple times, as did Fred of the show Bismarck, you know, who first began as an uber reactionary, then allied with the liberals, then turned back and, you know, found himself once again working with the Protestant reactionaries against the sort of socialists and Catholics. And I think, I think we have to, we have to take that spirit of dynamism that you must have the information at hand and be able to react quickly to it and, and not try and produce a dogma that can be followed sort of step by step, like a recipe.
- [61:39]
C
Yes. More and more I feel that more important than proceduralism and perhaps even the separation of powers is the ability of the electorate to just change if things aren't going right, give someone a chance to act decisively. If it doesn't work, they're out.
- [61:55]
A
Yeah, I think this is true and I think we really are spoiled by the fact that it's a lot harder, I think, to really mess up. And in some ways I think Liz Truss should be really admired in this respect. As someone who took a big swing, I don't think I'm enough of an economist to sort of accurately assess the results. It didn't, you know, I don't think it's controversial to say that it wasn't the, the best move, but I, I somewhat admire that as a, as a set of actions.
- [62:37]
C
But I mean, it is funny. People, people in our circles like to say you can just do things. Liz Truss just did things.
- [62:44]
A
This trust just did things and, and should be. And, and the lesson of Liz Truss is not that we need to put in structures to prevent that ever happening. It's simply we need to find a better Liz Truss.
- [62:57]
C
The lesson is you can do better and more considered things. Perhaps you can do things, but try and do it more strategically.
- [63:06]
A
Yeah, exactly, exactly. I think that, and probably, I think paying your civil servants and your politicians more is good. I do think Singapore really struggles with a, a lack of entrepreneurialism and dynamism. So, you know, Hong Kong. A friend of mine said that I'm going to, I'm not going to get this quote right because it's so ridiculous that I don't think anyone could possibly recreate it and do it justice. But it was something along the lines of we need to accelerate the process of, accelerate the process of the veil of subjectivity or something. Something along those lines. I, I, what I took from it, you know, as a, as a man, not as clever as him, was that Singapore really struggles with the sort of necessary subjectivity and comfort with uncertainty that is necessary for artistic creation and entrepreneurism that I've been, I've been sort of noting, making some notes and I come up with this idea of the sort of no true Scot, no true Singaporean, which, you know, this is based on the idea the, the no true Scotsman fallacy is that no true Scotsman puts honey in their porridge. So is a ridiculous. Is a sort of a logical fallacy because you're putting the A characteristic before the actual definition, I. E. Someone can be a Scotsman without X being true. Singapore is a fascinating state where actually they have assembled a list of putting honey in your porridge like statements and simply by following them one may become a Singaporean.
- [64:57]
C
I think maybe it's wrong to think of Singapore as a place that is uniquely deficient in entrepreneurialism. I think it's in fact it's only small pockets of the world where entrepreneurialism really happens. I mean even in Western Europe, many countries struggle with it. One other thing that I'm curious about in Singapore, is it true that there is no gum to be seen? No chewing gum?
- [65:19]
A
No chewing gum, no vapes?
- [65:21]
C
I'm yet to meet a kind of heavy handed style of policing regarding this, the public realm that I haven't liked. But even vapes strike me as a little overzealous.
- [65:33]
A
The vapes one was because people were using them to kind of smuggle THC containing oh, fine products approved into the country.
- [65:42]
C
Approved.
- [65:46]
A
But no, I mean it's a sort of. What else? But it does mean that people smoke a lot, which I think is quite chic. Very, very sophisticated.
- [65:57]
C
What about the personal responsibility and all the Singaporeans having to like, you know, match their healthcare spending out of their own pocket and put money away every year towards it. The idea being that would impel them to behave more responsibly and lower the burden on the. How did we do something like this?
- [66:14]
A
Do you know who does do something like this? Who? Germany.
- [66:18]
C
Oh my God. I think we should wrap up Any final thoughts on Singapore before you return to Bismarck?
- [66:29]
A
Well, I have one. I have one final idea that I think is kind of interesting. There's a book called White noise by Don DeLillo.
- [66:42]
C
Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I've read it. Very strange book.
- [66:45]
A
Very strange book. But I think one of the best bits of it is a section where he talks about the most photographed barn in America. Do you remember this, Ben?
- [66:56]
C
It's a while ago since I read it. And it becomes. I mean it's very postmodern. Right. It becomes a thing of its own. People want to come and photograph the most.
- [67:07]
A
Exactly. So a farmer disappoints Heinrich into.
- [67:11]
C
Is Heinrich the name of the sun?
- [67:12]
A
Heinrich is the name of the son because the father is the founder of the field of Hitler studies. But the farmer, you know, seeking to increase the amount of tourism to his, his neck of the woods, decides to declare his barn the most photographed barn in America. And this produces an endless stream of photographers who wish to add it to their collection and thus makes it true. And I think Singapore is an extraordinary example of the success of this approach that most people, if they were to consider going to Singapore, will look at, will go on Google and they'll say they'll look for, you know, top five things to do in Singapore. And if you can have a website that says there's a, you know, one of. One of Singapore's great tourist attractions is the light show as, as it does say one, the light show of at Marina Bay Sands, which is the sort of famous three tower building that has a boat along the top. And every night there is this light show, people will come and see it. And you create a tourist attraction out of nothing. And the same thing applies to the Raffles Hotel and the Long Bar where you go and have a Singapore Sling and throw your peanuts on the ground.
- [68:46]
C
Then you get beaten for throwing One
- [68:48]
A
place, it's the one, the one place is permitted, the one place that's permitted. And you know, so you turn up in a bar that once would have housed kind of linen suited hacks, you know, sending copy over the phone and instead, you know, you've got sort of walking, walking shoe and Gore Tex wearing German tourists with their rucksacks on their back coming to sort of tick this off the list. And I think it is an extraordinary, extraordinary success where they have recognized that by simply naming something a tourist attraction or a cultural practice or something they are proud of, they have been able to summon a state out of nothing.
- [69:31]
C
Well, I think there's an important distinction here between conning tourists who are very gullible and will just go to the thing that, that is highest rate on TripAdvisor and actually creating cultural institutions. And we were chatting about this earlier, one thing that came to my mind was the mayor's St. George Day celebrations in Trafalgar Square. And Unherd sent Vessi du Troit, who's a great feature writer, and he basically found that there's a sort of massive cultural void there because of course the mayor doesn't want to actually acknowledge anything ancestral to do with Englishness.
- [70:05]
A
Yeah, so it's rendered, it's people waving St. George's flag, probably, you know, waving
- [70:09]
C
a few, a kind of, you Know, multi ethnic group of purdy kings, like waving some Morris dancer hankies. I don't know, maybe some sort of.
- [70:20]
A
Don't let facts get in the way.
- [70:24]
C
Maybe like, you know, some drill music about a cup of tea or something, who knows? But that kind of thing is not going to catch on. We like to think that a statue of Athelstan on the fourth Plinth would.
- [70:39]
A
Yeah, I.
- [70:40]
C
That is our cultural hyperstician wish.
- [70:43]
A
That is. That is your desire. I have to say, Tom, I fear that it will not have the same impact as it once might have. For example, no, the. The subscription for General Haig after he died, the subscription for a statue for him was massively over subscribed with veterans of the First World War sending money, you know, at odds with the common donkeys led by lions, led by donkeys narrative and that, you know, then a statue was a sort of meaningful part of cultural and national expression. And I fear that putting up a statue now does not necessarily hold the same place in a country's sort of sense of self.
- [71:44]
C
That is why it's important. That is the whole point.
- [71:46]
A
Interesting. Go on.
- [71:48]
C
It is important because. Because national cohesion is fading so fast and because these stories are so infrequently taught at school. That is why it is much more important than it has been for us to have a shared mythology as a people.
- [72:09]
A
So I agree with this. What I would maybe say though is you can't just stop at the statue. What you have to do in addition to the statue then is you have to have school groups that come past it and they will learn the story of Athelstan and then you will have, you know, events about it and there has the, you know, in the. In, you know, moving more into your domain, Tom, than my own. This must be total football. You know, you have to. You have to a full press that, that or. Or. I think. Is there a word, Sort of a full spectrum, full spectrum attack. That's more of a. A war idea that you are sort of pushing on all fronts so that an idea is. Cannot be escaped. And I think that that is the. Is the lesson from Singapore is that if you are able to command the information production and are able to direct what people are seeing, what people are reading and are just simply willing to say in 20 years time we will have a nation. But it's going to take that long, I think you could do it.
- [73:25]
C
And if we do do this, perhaps some years from now there'll be planeloads of precocious Singaporean nationalists coming the other way to learn from Anglo Futures Britain.
- [73:36]
A
Well, exactly. Coming with their already good hair and already good teeth and hopefully flying back with bigger beer bellies and, you know, a UK beast on their arm.
- [73:48]
C
A UK beast and not an hcbg. I, I think, I suppose we don't want to. We don't want to give away the hcg, but we want to keep the beasts as well.
- [73:55]
A
We, we, we love. We love.
- [73:57]
C
But we're producing such a surplus because TFR will be so high.
- [74:00]
A
Exactly.
- [74:00]
C
Wanting to send the beasts and hcbgs and expeditionary Clarion Clipperton Zone exploring young Anglo Futurists, Captain of industries as well, out into the world.
- [74:10]
A
Exactly. Exactly. And with that, and with that, listeners, go forth and multiply. Have some. Have some UK beasts have sex, please.
- [74:23]
C
That's good. This one's gonna be a nightmare for Aaron to. Well, you know what they say, whoever produces the Anglo Futurist podcast must have that iron in him.
- [74:32]
A
All right, listeners, thank you very much and goodbye. Sam.