Apologetics Profile Episode 295: Sandra Tanner Discusses Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon – Part Two

Date: June 30, 2025
Hosts: James Walker & Daniel Ray
Guest: Sandra Tanner (former Latter Day Saint, researcher, and great-great-granddaughter of Brigham Young)

Episode Overview

In this in-depth continuation, Sandra Tanner shares personal experiences and scholarly insights about the theological evolution of Joseph Smith, the origins and problems of the Book of Mormon, and the divergence of Latter Day Saint (LDS) doctrines from orthodox Christianity. The discussion covers LDS cosmology, the translation controversies of the Book of Abraham, the impact of Masonic rituals on Mormon temple practices, and practical strategies for engaging with believing LDS members.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Formative Experiences and Early Questions [(00:15)-(01:15); (18:52)-(24:23)]

• Sandra’s Eighth Grade Encounter: Sandra recounts being confronted by a Christian peer about Mormon beliefs and reciting Lorenzo Snow’s couplet:

  “As man is God once was, as God is man may become.” – Sandra Tanner [(00:25)]
  The peer’s horrified response (“That’s blasphemy”) served as a catalyst for Sandra’s critical examination of LDS theology.

• Seed Planting: Sandra emphasizes the importance of respectful dialogue when sharing doctrinal concerns with LDS believers, acknowledging the deep personal and familial commitment many have to the faith.

  “You just don’t throw that over in a minute. It takes time to think those issues through.” – Sandra Tanner [(18:52)]
  She describes her own multi-year journey wrestling with doubts, the influence of her mother’s questions, and the role of gradual exposure to challenging facts.

2. Joseph Smith’s Doctrinal Shift: From Monotheism to Polytheism [(01:15)-(13:36)]

• The King Follett Discourse and Divine Progression:
  Narration covers how Joseph Smith’s theology shifted radically from monotheistic to polytheistic, particularly after his acquisition of Egyptian papyri and the "Book of Abraham" project.
• Book of Abraham Controversies:
  Extensive analysis details how Smith’s translation has been thoroughly debunked by Egyptologists. The papyri date centuries after Abraham, and bear no relation to the events Smith claimed.

  “There is not a chance whatsoever that that text could... [have been] written at the time of... Abraham. There is no wiggle room. Zero. None.” – Dr. Robert Rittner [(06:52)]

• Incongruity in LDS Scripture:
  While the original Book of Mormon is monotheistic (e.g., Alma 11:26–31 affirms “there is a true and living God... is there more than one God?... No”), Smith’s later works introduce "the Gods" and were influenced by polytheistic ideas.

3. The Doctrine of Exaltation & Divine Offspring [(07:51)-(10:42)]

• Literal Divine Children:
  Jacob Hansen, an LDS member, explains LDS belief that humans are literal spirit offspring who can become gods, compared to prosperity gospel teachings:

  “We believe that we are children of God, and a child grows up to be like his father... Where you guys only say that you can share in the attributes of God, where we say no, we actually are connected to God as His literal spirit children.” – Jacob Hansen [(08:56), (09:57)]

• Evangelical Response:
  Narrators argue this doctrine violates Christian theological essentials—specifically, God’s incommunicable attributes such as self-existence, immutability, and uniqueness. Bible passages like Acts 17:24–25, Isaiah 55:8–9, and Isaiah 43 are cited.

4. The “Reformed Egyptian” Problem and Translation Issues [(14:13)-(17:21)]

• Motivation for "Reformed Egyptian":
  Sandra explains the historical context of why Joseph Smith claimed the gold plates were written in "Reformed Egyptian," echoing 19th-century misconceptions that Egyptian was a condensed language.
• Translation Fiascos and Lack of Scholarly Support:

  “You cannot have a character that's simply a backward looking E and get a paragraph of text with proper names and everything in it.” – Sandra Tanner [(14:30)]

• Lack of Peer Review:
  Sandra outlines that LDS Egyptologists, while credentialed, do not assert the authenticity of Smith’s translations in secular, peer-reviewed publications.

  “They are not publishing papers... for peer review... for their claims of Joseph Smith's work.” – Sandra Tanner [(15:10)]

• Confirming Dr. Rittner’s Judgment:

  “Joseph Smith was wrong on everything. It doesn’t work that way and it’s not a valid translation.” – Sandra Tanner on Dr. Robert Rittner’s conclusion [(16:36)]

5. Navigating Conversations with LDS Members [(17:21)-(22:16); (43:21)-(44:15); (46:04)-(46:59)]

• Approaches for Christian Apologists:
  Hosts ask Sandra for advice on presenting hard facts to LDS missionaries or loved ones. Sandra stresses the need for empathy and patience.

  “...Don’t dump the whole load at once. You don’t rush in and just throw all kinds of facts at them and expect them to immediately turn around and say, 'Oh, well, I guess I was wrong.'” – Sandra Tanner [(18:36)] “We have to think in terms of seed planting.” [(18:52)]

• Love and Respect:

  “Show them love and respect... We have something beautiful to offer them in full forgiveness through the atonement. Not a treadmill of perfection in temple ritual…” – Sandra Tanner [(46:04)]

6. Doctrinal Evolution: From the Book of Mormon to Modern LDS Theology [(24:25)-(28:57)]

• Changes in Revelations:
  Sandra shares how comparing early and current LDS scriptures (Book of Commandments vs. Doctrine and Covenants) revealed significant changes, undermining trust in the revelatory process.
• Monotheism vs. Polytheism:
  Sandra points out that while the Book of Mormon teaches monotheism, later LDS scripture and doctrine contradict this foundation.

7. The Authority of Inner Witness vs. Evidence [(28:57)-(35:15)]

• Burning in the Bosom:
  The hosts and Sandra discuss how many LDS members defer to emotional confirmation (“burning in the bosom”) rather than textual or historical evidence for the Book of Mormon’s truthfulness.
• Challenge to Testimony Claims:
  Sandra draws parallels to testimonies of those in polygamous splinter groups and stresses the need to test all claims against the New Testament:

  “...Many people... have said they received some sort of miraculous manifestation ... But if we're going to claim to be Christian... then the burden of proof is there. They have to show that their Christianity ever existed in the first century.” – Sandra Tanner [(34:35)]

8. The Myth of an Early Great Apostasy [(31:11)-(33:08)]

• Insufficient Historical Evidence:
  Sandra refutes claims that uniquely LDS teachings existed in original Christianity or are recoveries of lost doctrines, noting there is no manuscript or historical evidence supporting such a claim.

9. Mormonism & Masonry: Temple Rituals and Secrecy [(35:17)-(41:10)]

• Origins of Temple Rituals:
  Hosts and Sandra trace how LDS temple rites were influenced by Masonic practices.

  “The secrecy originally was to hide his [Smith’s] polygamy” – Sandra Tanner [(36:53)]

• Masonic Parallels:
  Narrator draws explicit connections: five points of fellowship, special oaths, secret handshakes, distinctive clothing, and the practice (now removed) of threatening gestures.

10. The Allure of Hidden Knowledge & Special Status [(41:10)-(43:06)]

• Appeal to Specialness:
  Sandra discusses how Mormon patriarchal blessings and inside knowledge foster a sense of unique status among members.

  “It gives you this feeling of special personal power as you go up through the ranks…” — Sandra Tanner [(41:10)]

• “We accept you as Christian” … but not really:
  Sandra points out that, despite surface-level ecumenicism, LDS practices like proxy baptism for the dead reveal a belief that non-LDS Christians are spiritually incomplete.

11. LDS Salvation: “Grace Plus Works” [(44:06)-(45:41)]

• Salvation Doctrine Contrasted with Evangelical Christianity:
  The hosts and Sandra highlight how LDS soteriology ties grace to continued effort and temple ritual, diverging from biblical teachings on salvation by grace alone.

  “If you have to have a plus after grace, you haven't quite understood what the New Testament's about.” – Sandra Tanner [(45:41)]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• Sandra on the impact of early criticism:

  “That started my thought process. Why would the outsiders think the Mormon's view of God was blasphemy?” [(00:55); (21:30)]

• Dr. Robert Rittner on Book of Abraham papyri:

  “There is not a chance whatsoever... there is no wiggle room. Zero. None.” [(06:52)]

• Sandra on translation claims:

  “None of it makes sense. All Egyptologists outside of Mormonism concede that there is nothing in Joseph Smith's work on Egyptian that is credible, holds any water.” [(14:37)]

• Guidance on Apologetics:

  “Whatever you say or do with your Mormon friend, make sure it’s done in love.” – Sandra Tanner [(46:59)]

Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• Sandra’s “Blasphemy” story & its aftermath: (00:15–01:15, and repeated at 18:52–21:30)
• King Follett Discourse & Smith’s Theological Shift: (01:15–07:37)
• Dr. Rittner on Book of Abraham papyri: (06:52–07:37)
• Literal children of God – Jacob Hansen & Prosperity Gospel Comparison: (08:56–10:42)
• Reformed Egyptian problem and translation flaws: (14:13–17:21)
• How to talk to LDS members: (18:36–24:23, 46:04–46:59)
• Mormonism and Masonry: (35:17–41:10)
• Patriarchal blessings & “specialness”: (41:10–43:18)
• LDS soteriology—grace plus works: (44:06–45:49)

Closing Advice

Sandra Tanner’s concluding counsel is to always engage LDS individuals with gentleness, respect, and genuine care, understanding the emotional and personal ramifications of religious identity transitions.

“Love is the name of the game. We have something beautiful to offer them in full forgiveness through the atonement. Not a treadmill of perfection in temple ritual, but it takes time for the Mormon to process that and to come to Faith.” – Sandra Tanner [(46:04)]

For more about Sandra Tanner’s research and resources on LDS history and doctrine, visit Utah Lighthouse Ministry.

For the full episode and more apologetics resources, visit Watchman Fellowship.