Podcast Summary: Apologetics Profile, Ep. 299 “The State of the Atheist & Christian Debate with Author Justin Brierley: Part Two”
Date Released: July 28, 2025
Host: James Walker & Daniel Ray
Featured Guest: Justin Brierley

Overview

This episode delves into contemporary issues shaping the ongoing dialogue between atheists and Christians—particularly the perception that science is at odds with Christian faith, the enduring impact of New Atheism, and how Christians can meaningfully address deep questions of suffering and the identity of Jesus. Justin Brierley, author and longtime host of “Unbelievable?”, joins to share his insights gleaned from two decades of moderating high-level conversations across the faith spectrum.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Mystery of Language & Limits of Neo-Darwinian Answers

• Origin of Speech Still Unexplained:
  Brierley introduces the episode by highlighting author Tom Wolfe’s conclusion that, despite decades of effort, science still lacks concrete, empirical answers for how human language originated. This stands in stark contrast to advances in other scientific areas:

  “There is no concrete scientific, empirical data about where or how our linguistic prowess originated… 150 years since the theory of evolution was announced and they had nothing.”
  — Justin Brierley citing Tom Wolfe, 00:36-02:52

• Complexity in Biological Systems:
  Brierley notes that specified, complex information at the level of cellular organization poses similar problems for Neo-Darwinian explanations, as also argued by atheist philosopher Thomas Nagel.

2. The Myth of “Science vs. Faith”

• Residual Influence of New Atheism:
  Brierley observes that the narrative of inherent conflict between science and Christianity persists in the culture, especially among students:

  “The New Atheists were so successful... they've left behind a residue of this kind of assumption in culture that there is this science versus faith thing... I can't believe in God because I believe in science.”
  — Justin Brierley, 07:15-08:05

• Illustrating Non-Competing Explanations:
  Brierley uses an analogy of a cake to show that science can explain “how” something exists, but not “why”. Scientific and personal reasons for the same event are not mutually exclusive:

  “To discover why there is a cake, you’d have to ask the person who made it... Science is great for some things, but it’s not going to answer those why questions.”
  — Justin Brierley, 08:37-09:31

  — He extends the analogy to boiling a kettle and hot air balloons, showing how “why” and “how” sit together.

• Science Can’t Explain Itself:
  The conversation highlights the self-referential limits of scientific inquiry itself:

  “The science can explain a lot, but it can't explain itself, you know?”
  — Justin Brierley, 12:01

3. The Problem of Suffering and the Human Pursuit of Meaning

• Suffering as an Objection—and Its Limits:
  The hosts and Brierley examine the classic atheistic objection: if God exists, why suffering? Yet, people persist in seeking meaning, finding joy, and even choosing to bring new life into a world they know is tragic:

  “If you have had children, you’ve consciously, knowingly brought them into a world in which they will suffer and they will die one day. And yet you did it... And I think that there is a way in which... God might have similar reasons for why he would bring people into a world even of pain and suffering.”
  — Justin Brierley, 14:12-15:29

• Transformation Through Pain: Brierley and the hosts discuss how suffering can give rise to growth and the capacity to love:

  "Sometimes it’s almost only because of the pain that we get to the good of suffering. And that's not something I say lightly..."
  — Justin Brierley, 16:41-17:12

• Personal Story on Suffering:
  Daniel Ray shares his journey with loss and the difficulty of accepting God as Father, emphasizing the role of God's “chesed” (steadfast love) through hardship:

  “It's taken me 30 plus years to look back and to see God's patience through suffering...”
  — Daniel Ray, 17:12-18:51

4. Exploring the Identity of Jesus

• Cultural Fascination and Historical Impact:
  Brierley recounts actor Paul Rudd’s viral remark wanting to meet Jesus in history, underscoring the enduring intrigue:

  “As an historian, I can say that Jesus Christ is irrevocably the center of history... you don’t have to be a Christian or a believer to recognize the extraordinary impact of Jesus Christ.”
  — Justin Brierley quoting H.G. Wells, 20:24-20:43

• C.S. Lewis’s Trilemma:
  The episode closes with Brierley reflecting on C.S. Lewis’s argument regarding the uniqueness of Jesus—was he Lord, liar, lunatic, or, as modern skeptics add, legend?

5. On Faith Conversations—Planting Seeds

• Patience in Dialogue:
  Brierley stresses that meaningful spiritual conversations rarely produce immediate results:

  “Sharing your faith is akin to planting seeds, just as Jesus said in his parables... Seeds require time to come to fruition... we are not going to immediately see the results of the seeds we’ve planted.”
  — Justin Brierley, 21:03-21:56

  — He encourages listeners not to lose heart, quoting Galatians.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the persistence of the “Science vs. Faith” meme:

  “They genuinely see this as, you either believe in science or you believe in God. And it’s very sad... but it’s sad that that narrative... has come to dominate.”
  — Justin Brierley, 07:31

• On non-competing explanations in the world:

  “Why is the water in the kettle boiling?... Because I want to have a cup of tea.”
  — Justin Brierley, 10:24

• On the analogy between parenthood and God’s creative purpose:

  “If you have had children, you’ve consciously, knowingly brought them into a world in which they will suffer and they will die one day—right? And yet you did it.”
  — Justin Brierley, 14:12

• On time and patience in faith conversations:

  “It’s interesting to see what seeds do actually get planted and often take years and years before they come to fruition.”
  — Justin Brierley, 21:03

Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment Description | | ----------- | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- | | 00:15-02:52 | The origin of speech & limits of evolutionary explanations; Tom Wolfe, Nagel| | 07:15-11:21 | Science vs. Faith—student perceptions, cake analogy, why vs. how | | 11:21-13:20 | Science’s explanatory limits & metaphysical questions | | 13:20-14:12 | On the goodness of life amidst suffering | | 14:12-17:12 | Parenthood, suffering, and the analogy to God’s reasons | | 17:12-18:51 | Daniel Ray’s personal testimony about suffering and faith | | 19:13-20:43 | Who is Jesus? C.S. Lewis’s trilemma, cultural fascination | | 21:03-21:56 | Closing thoughts on patience and perseverance in faith conversations |

Tone & Closing Thoughts

The tone is reflective, respectful, and intellectually generous. Both Brierley and the co-hosts foster a spirit of curiosity and humility, urging Christians to hold both intellectual rigor and empathy as they engage in difficult conversations. “Be patient—trust that truth, love, and meaningful questions have lasting effects, even when invisible in the short term.”