Episode 336: Navigating the Deserts of Doubt with Dr. Gary Habermas - Part Two

Summary

Apologetics Profile – Episode 336
Navigating the Deserts of Doubt with Dr. Gary Habermas – Part Two
April 6, 2026

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Episode Overview

In Part Two of their discussion with renowned resurrection scholar Dr. Gary Habermas, hosts Daniel Ray and James Walker delve into the practical and emotional struggles of Christian doubt. The episode centers on “emotional doubt”—the persistent and often paralyzing inner turmoil many believers face regarding their security, worth, and God’s love. Habermas shares personal insights, biblical wisdom, anecdotes from ministry, and therapeutic strategies for “renewing the mind” and breaking the cycle of negative self-talk. Through candid conversation and moving testimonies, the episode aims to encourage listeners walking through their own spiritual wilderness.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Emotional Doubt and Its Prevalence

[08:38] Dr. Gary Habermas:

• Not everyone struggles with doubt, but “the vast majority of people do,” and emotional doubt is “by far the most common kind.”
• Emotional doubt often grows out of unchecked negative self-talk: “Somehow we need to preach to ourselves. You have to correct your thoughts.”

The "Hamster Wheel" of Negative Thinking

[10:02–11:51] Daniel Ray & Dr. Gary Habermas:

• Daniel candidly shares about his own “hamster wheel of negative thinking,” a perpetual internal monologue of feeling unwanted or unnecessary to God.
• Daniel describes a powerful moment in prayer:

  “It was like Jesus was in the car...God just put his finger in there and said, son, I am extremely gentle with you because I know more about you than you know about yourself.” (Daniel, 10:49)

• Dr. Habermas affirms this experience and highlights it as an example of God’s gentleness even in silence:

  “God's silence is his gentleness.” (Daniel, 11:53)

The Need for Cognitive Self-Discipline

[12:43–13:54] Dr. Gary Habermas:

• Christians must learn to “argue with ourselves”—a practice akin to cognitive therapy in psychology.
• Locate the lies or “misbeliefs” we tell ourselves about God and counter them with scriptural truth:

  “God is the only being in the world who can’t be other than he is...He can’t be two faced.” (Habermas, 12:52)

• Progress is often “three steps forward, two steps back,” but this is part of the slow healing journey.

Cultural Factors Fueling Doubt

[15:04–17:57] Daniel & Dr. Habermas:

• Modern life amplifies anxiety and doubt—through constant news, social media, and overstimulation.

  “No human beings...were meant to ingest this much information. What’s new is we have access...almost [to] a kind of omniscient knowledge about what's going on.” (Daniel, 16:38)

Accusations Against God and Spiritual Self-Sabotage

[17:57–19:09] Daniel & Dr. Habermas:

• We often put God “in the dock” (on trial), making accusations based more on our own projections than truth.

  “For me, I know it’s mostly me. Satan’s in there somewhere, but I’m mostly me.” (Daniel, 18:27)

• Habermas: “God can’t do what you think he’s doing. It’s impossible for God to be two faced...He cannot be what he isn’t.” (Habermas, 15:46)

The Example of Christ’s Suffering

[19:00–21:09] Daniel & Dr. Habermas:

• Jesus underwent the worst suffering; we must avoid spiritual entitlement:

  “Don’t challenge God and say, ‘why?’ until you’ve suffered as much as Jesus has...Most of this pain, like you said, is put on us by ourselves.” (Habermas, 19:09)

Romans 12: Renewing the Mind

[21:13–22:40] Daniel & Dr. Habermas:

• Daniel describes how Romans 12 helped him through dark times, emphasizing “present your bodies as living sacrifices...be transformed by the renewing of your mind.”
• Habermas:

  “We renew our mind, I think, primarily by not lying to ourselves, not being our own worst enemy, and defeating ourselves with God’s truth.”

  • Using lists of biblical “who you are in Christ” promises can combat lies and foster assurance.

Emotional vs. Factual Doubt

[22:40–23:23]

• Daniel distinguishes between factual doubt (historical/resurrection evidence; less troubling for him) and emotional doubt (“Does God love me?”).
• Habermas: Most doubt is emotional, even among those who consider themselves unemotional.

Negative Thinking’s Roots and Breaking the Cycle

[23:54–25:16]

• Childhood wounds ("My dad didn’t love me, so why would God?") are often projected onto God-relationships.
• Recognizing “God’s silence...is really his gentleness” helps reframe pessimism.
• Daniel:

  “I think what I’m coming to the conclusion [is] our doubts maybe are unexamined negativity. We don’t even realize how much we’ve contributed.” (Daniel, 24:56)

Practical Tools: Truth, Gratitude, & Remembrance

[25:13–28:34] Dr. Gary Habermas:

• Keep lists of answered prayers and encouragements—a kind of “rainy day file.”

  “I make lists so I can remind myself of what he’s done in my life.” (Habermas, 27:15)

• Cherish affirmations and encouragement from others—don't dismiss them.

Ministry Legacies and the Unexpected Fruit

[28:34–30:37] Daniel & Dr. Habermas:

• Both share moving stories of former students and players whose lives were changed by faithful Christian presence, often unbeknownst at the time.
• Treasured letters or emails from impacted lives are kept for “rainy days.”

Concluding Truths: God’s Immutable Goodness

[30:54–31:44] Daniel & Dr. Habermas:

• Think “true thoughts”—not just “good thoughts.”

  “Good thoughts are lies...We have no reason, Gary, in our hamster wheel of negativity to think of God in any accusatory, negative kind of way. It’s just not in there.” (Daniel, 30:56)

God’s Love Perceived as “Too Good to Be True”

[31:27–32:24] Daniel & Dr. Habermas:

“How could God love me when I’m so unlovely? Well, of course, one of those answers is he sees you through his son...He sees you as forgiven.” (Habermas, 31:44)

Daily Mind Renewal & Spiritual Growth

[32:24–36:34] Dr. Gary Habermas & Daniel:

• Renewal is daily and active: “I try to say things like, okay, now what truths can I...Name five things that can reinforce that God’s done in my life.” (Habermas, 25:13)
• Use every-day metaphors (trees, roots, New Orleans live oaks) for spiritual stability and growth.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “God’s silence is his gentleness.” (Daniel, 11:53)
• “You can say, well, I did it and it worked for about two days. Then something not so great happened to me and I went back a little bit...Doubt is a long process of working through it and you will frequently take three steps forward and then you'll fall two steps back.” (Habermas, 14:03)
• “You think that when you talk to yourself, you’re telling yourself the truth. You’re not. Half the time you’re lying.” (Daniel & Habermas, 25:12)
• “I keep what I call a rainy day file...When students write to me...and they tell me something special...it goes in my rainy day file.” (Habermas, 27:43–28:34)
• “He [God] sees you as completed. He sees you as forgiven...But the worst thing we can do is keep lying to ourselves because you make that well deeper, deeper, deeper, and you’re further from getting out.” (Habermas, 31:44–32:04)

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Important Resources & Recommendations

[32:36–33:44]

• Dr. Habermas’ website contains free books and helpful chapters (www.garyhabermas.com, “Books” tab).
• Over 400 YouTube videos—including many on doubt.
• Book recommendations:
  • Erwin Lutzer’s “You’re Richer Than You Think”
  • “Telling Yourself the Truth” by Backus and Chapian
  • “The All Sufficiency of Christ”

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Final Encouragements

• Ministry is “the highest thing I can do right now.” (Habermas, 33:39)
• “Remain alive and be hopeful.” (Daniel, 33:44)
• Continual growth, rootedness, and spiritual renewal are daily practices—like the live oaks of New Orleans, faith deepens and strengthens over time.

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [08:38] – Emotional Doubt: The Most Common Form
• [10:02–11:51] – Personal Testimony: Hamster Wheel of Negativity & Divine Gentleness
• [12:43–14:03] – Cognitive Therapy: Arguing With Yourself
• [16:38] – News & Social Media Amplify Doubt
• [19:09–21:09] – Suffering and the Example of Christ
• [21:23–22:40] – Romans 12: Renewing the Mind
• [25:13–28:34] – Practical Tools: Lists, Rainy Day File
• [30:54–32:24] – Thinking “True Thoughts” About God
• [34:41–36:34] – Spiritual Growth and Deep Roots

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Tone & Language

Warm, candid, and pastorally tender, the episode blends theological depth with psychological insight, balancing honest vulnerability (especially from Daniel) with gentle, biblically rooted counsel from Dr. Habermas. The dialogue is conversational, deeply empathetic, and filled with hope for anyone navigating their own “desert of doubt.”

Transcript

[Podcast Host]

Helping the Body of Christ proclaim the truth of Christ in a post Christian world. This is Apologetics Profile.

[Narrator/Intro Speaker]

There are no simple answers when it comes to struggling with doubts about your faith in Christ. When we pass through a wilderness of doubt, life can sometimes seem colorless and bland. In the desert of doubt, we sometimes find ourselves under the glare of a relentless afternoon desert sun. It is hot, dry, and the rocks by which we are surrounded seem to stand as uncaring, impersonal statues of ugly gray grief and disbelief. There is no comforting shade. But then, slowly, a remarkable transformation begins to take place. The sun averts its relentless noonday gaze and begins to condescend to our creaturely plight. And what happens in the desert when the sun finally comes down? The range of mountains and rocks before us are transformed, returning to their majesty and magnitude, writes John C. Van dyck in his 1901 book the Desert. An otherworldly, variegated piece begins to reorient the landscape. As Van Dyck observes, quote the peaks reach up, the bases broaden, the walls break into gashes, the ridges harden into profiles. The the sun is westering and the light, falling more obliquely, seems to bring out the shadows in the canyons and barrancas. Last of all, the colors come slowly back to their normal condition as the flush of life to one recovering from a trance. One by one they begin to glow on chasm wall and needled summit. The air too, changes from steel blue to yellow, from yellow to pink, from from pink to lilac, until at last, with the sun on the rim of the earth, the mountains, the air, the clouds and the sky are all glowing with the tints of ruby topaz, rose diamond, hues of splendor, of grandeur, of glory. End quote. In not a few ways, I think this inspiring description of a desert at sunset serves as a fitting metaphor for how Jesus transforms our doubts and grief. First, Jesus knows the way we take, for he guides and directs our very steps. While at times the light of the sun may seem harsh and unrelenting, it does not remain so. A desert sunset can be a reminder of how the Son of God comes down to us and stands on the rim of the earth right in our path. His radiant presence infuses what was once a barren and seemingly colorless wilderness with rich and glorious hues of heaven, hues of splendor, of grandeur and of glory, as the seraphim proclaim in Isaiah's vision. Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty. The whole earth is filled with his glory. And recall the vision of Jesus the apostle John experienced when he was exiled on the Isle of Patmos, a rocky, arid and mountainous island off the coast of modern day Turkey in the Aegean Sea. The Son of Man and Son of God came down and stood on the rim of the earth, appearing to John in the midst of his exile. John describes Jesus as having hair white as wool, wearing a golden sash, and his eyes were like flames of fire, his feet were like burnished bronze glowing in a furnace, and his face shone like the sun. John was terrified and fell down like a dead man. But Jesus bid him not to be afraid. Jesus is gentle with us. He knows our frame, that we are but dust. He takes pity on us as a father pities his children. He knows the paths we're on, and he knows right where to come down and meet with us. Jesus knows the words we need to hear so that we can be once more turned to him in repentance. Recall the patriarch Jacob, who had been traversing through what is today the desert wilderness in Jordan. Jacob had sent his family over to the other side of the river and settled in by himself for the night near Jabbok's Ford. Jacob, like John, was alone in the wilderness when God came to him and wrestled with him. Jacob wanted to know this peculiar man's name, but no name was ever given. Instead, Jacob is permitted to prevail in the wrestling match, but not before God touches him on the hip and changes Jacob's name to Israel. Jacob, God tells him, has wrestled with both God and man and has prevailed. Being left alone to wrestle with God is a hallmark of the lives of God's elect. But it is not that we are entirely alone, but alone with God. Even in our wilderness of doubt, God has not forsaken us, though at times it may feel that way. But feelings are no more a solid ground upon which to stand than a vaporous cloud. Though in the midst of our doubts we cannot see or even understand the lessons we are being taught, God knows. He knows infinitely more and far and away more differently than we do about our situations and circumstances. There will be an end to our seasons of doubt and despair. The sun will soon condescend to us in our own wilderness and illuminate the rocks and hills and valleys of our doubts with his radiant glory. He knows where we are. He knows how to orchestrate and arrange his light to illumine our own smoldering wicks. And when we come forth out of the wilderness, we can use our own personal experiences to help others navigate the deserts of doubt. We may limp out of the wilderness, as Jacob did, but it will be with God's blessings. As Mr. Van Dyke concludes in his book on the desert, the glory of the wilderness has gone down with the sun. Mystery, that haunting sense of the unknown, is all that remains. It is time that we should say good night, perhaps a long good night to the desert. And as night falls in the desert, there too the glory of God still does appear. Remember when God met Abram in the wilderness at night, he took Abram outside and challenged him to count the stars if he were able. And then he told Abram something that likely caused him, at his old age, to marvel. His descendants would be just as numerous as the stars in the heavens. You never know how or when God will appear to you in your wilderness. But he will, for he is faithful. We will likely never know, full this side of eternity, what purposes God had in passing us through this kind of wilderness. It seems to us a great mystery and many questions may remain, but there will be an end to the harsh terrain. Here on part two of our conversation with resurrection scholar Dr. Gary Habermas. Gary will share with us more practical and experiential advice in dealing with doubt. We hope this episode will be a helpful encouragement to you or someone you know who is passing, passing through a season of doubt. And as we begin part two, Gary says that while there are certainly Christians who do not struggle so much with doubt, many do, especially with what Gary calls emotional doubt. Here once again is Dr. Gary Habermas.

[Dr. Gary Habermas]

Some are strangely well adapted. They trust Jesus, love for them. They believe first John 5:13, they could know they're Christians and the Lord is just that good and that real to them. And they don't struggle with doubts. But the vast majority of people do struggle with doubts. And emotional is by far the most common kind. So somehow we need to preach to ourselves. We need to. You have to correct your thoughts. If you say what you said earlier, that was a really good point. Say, seems like God's not answering my prayers lately. Must be mad at me. What? Well, and then you get upset that he's mad, so you go, I don't need to have devotions today. He let me down. Why do I have to keep up on all this? A little bit later you get a little. If the upset goes on, you go, why do I have to go to church? I mean, there's no need for me to worship. He's upset with me. He hasn't been reciprocating. Why should I? And you treat God like he's your best friend. Or something. And so the response is there and the anger builds up because it's like, good. You don't want to call me. I just keep calling you. And it grows. So there's a lot to be said for learning promises, like I said, using things like Erwin Lutzer's book, you're richer than you think. People who do some books, like the also efficiency of Christ.

[Daniel (Guest/Co-host)]

Well, I know one time, Gary, that you were. We had just. And it wasn't long after we had a little email exchange about my own doubts and something happened to me. I will be candid here for the sake of maybe encouraging some people. I have a hamster wheel of negative thinking in my head. It's pretty bad. And I was doing the hamster wheel negativity in my car. Coming home from something. I'm just like, lord, you don't need me. I do. I'm so. I don't. I don't. I just. Nothing that I'm doing is making any difference. You don't need me. And I'm just going on and on and on. Right. I don't even know what I'm saying. I'm just blathering myself into a hole.

[Dr. Gary Habermas]

That's exactly what you do.

[Daniel (Guest/Co-host)]

Yeah, absolutely. And I do it constantly. And. But. But this time, for whatever reason,

[Dr. Gary Habermas]

it

[Daniel (Guest/Co-host)]

was like Jesus was in the car. And I'm not kidding, Gary. I'm not being overdramatic, because normally nothing would stop my hamster wheel except God just put his finger in there and said, son, I am extremely gentle with you because I know more about you than you know about yourself.

[Dr. Gary Habermas]

And you can't take it.

[Daniel (Guest/Co-host)]

That's right. But, Gary, that. That thought was not on my hamster wheel. I didn't make that up. That was not a voice of mine. I know my voice. Maybe I may be familiar with the voice of demons and the devil as well. That voice was not. That was God. It had to be God, because I not only just instantly shut up, it was almost like I wanted to start bawling like a little kid. Like dad just said, it was very calming.

[Narrator/Intro Speaker]

Non.

[Daniel (Guest/Co-host)]

Not angry. Just like I know you better than yourself, and that's why I'm extremely gentle with you. You know, like. Like I didn't know or recognize that God's silence was actually his gentleness at that moment. That's really what. What, what, what.

[Dr. Gary Habermas]

It boiled down to balling you out or chewing you.

[Daniel (Guest/Co-host)]

Right. God's silence is his gentleness.

[Dr. Gary Habermas]

That's thoughtful. We can learn little truths like that that are helpful, but the Main thing is, you said you were talking yourself into a deeper hole. That's exactly what happens in doubt when you feed yourself a list of lies. That's what telling yourself the truth is about. When you go, God didn't answer my prayer again. Okay, God answered my prayer. Boom. Again. Boom. Every little thing confirms your view of God's doing things incorrectly.

[Daniel (Guest/Co-host)]

Yeah, you're just painting this gigantic negative picture. It looks like a Pablo Picasso of go. Distorted face, unrecognizable figures, dark colors. You're just like, what is this mess? You've painted a cacophony of chaos in your head.

[Dr. Gary Habermas]

And it's you and it's you or it's me.

[Daniel (Guest/Co-host)]

Yeah, right.

[Dr. Gary Habermas]

That's exactly what happens. And that's why we have to argue with ourselves. That's what you have to do. It's called cognitive therapy. In the, in the, in the journals that psychologists and others have to deal with. And what you do is you. You locate the lies or misbeliefs. You're telling yourself like this, what I just said, you're in the car again. And you can take a different. Okay, enough of this. You're talking to you. Enough of this. God is. And then you name the omnis. He's omnipotent, he's omniscient, he's omnibenevolent. He's. And here's what comes from this. You talking to yourself again? Here's what comes from this. God couldn't be guilty of those things if he wants to be guilty of them. Because what I'm thinking of him is that he's two faced. He can't be two faced. God is the only being in the world who can't be other than he is. He cannot be doing those things. And why? Just because I say so? What a dumb thing. I'm like God looking down and seeing a little squirrel or a mouse running around. I mean, I'm just. I'm not thinking, well, God can't do those things. All right, Lord, you win this one. You're the omnis. I know it's true. I know the evidences. I'm going to quit feeding myself this. This stuff because the hole is getting deeper and deeper and deeper. I want to teach myself the right things. I want the God for whom. First Corinthians. I'm sorry, First John 5:13 is true. And we can know we have eternal life. That's what I want. And you can say, well, I did it and it worked for about two days. Then something not so great Happened to me and I went back a little bit. So I told my doubter, when people come to me, I tell them all the time, hey, look, doubt is a long process of working through it and you will frequently take three steps forward and then you'll fall two steps back, three steps forward, two steps back, three steps forward, two steps back. But if you do that 10 times, you've made 10 steps forward. And so you need to reinforce it. Hopefully you want more good than bad in your mind because you don't want to go two steps forward, three steps back. But if you go three up and two back, just keep, don't start telling yourself the lies again. Start there and move forward and do three more steps forward.

[Daniel (Guest/Co-host)]

Do you think, Gary, that whether it's factual or emotional, the doubt triggers are systemic to the kind of culture in which we swim today? Like doubt can be easily triggered by anything. Anything. Just about anything.

[Dr. Gary Habermas]

The weather, I mean, it's like, hey, I was going fishing today and I look out the window and it's raining. Now I took this day off or when am I supposed to do, heck, take another day off and it's raining out there and I'm not going to sit out. I'm living on a little lake.

[Daniel (Guest/Co-host)]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Gary Habermas]

I'm not going to sit out in the boat and spend my day with a hoodie and a thing on. And it could be as much as a rainy day that it doesn't take much to set off human beings.

[Daniel (Guest/Co-host)]

No, it doesn't.

[Dr. Gary Habermas]

There's psalms about things like that too, about letting little things get under our skin. But I think the main thing I'm getting at here is God can't do what you think he's doing. It's impossible for God to be two faced. It's impossible for God to get on your case because he upset, he cannot be what he isn't. And he's got the omnis. So do you really know what you're dealing with? If we did, we wouldn't say half the things about him.

[Daniel (Guest/Co-host)]

Yeah. Do you think, Gary, is a culture that we're afraid of, of silence? We're afraid of being quiet?

[Dr. Gary Habermas]

Yes.

[Daniel (Guest/Co-host)]

And I think that's probably just where God wants us could be.

[Dr. Gary Habermas]

My wife likes being quiet because she thinks that's when she's silent before the Lord and the Lord. I'm more of a. I gotta fill the space with words because then I'm not so. Yeah, I'm not so whatever.

[Daniel (Guest/Co-host)]

But we all, we all, we love background noise, the tv, the radio, we like the Internet, we're all on our phones. You know, I was at the city park here in New Orleans yesterday and today and went for a nice walk. It's beautiful weather but everybody, everybody is looking at their phones even while they're walking, even while they're driving their bike. That thing is in front of us. But I think the reason I bring this up is I think a lot of the anxiety of what you're talking about when you're looking at social media or you're doom scrolling as you're looking at the news and all this kind of stuff and you wonder where's God in all of this stuff? But no human being. I think, I mean maybe we're, maybe we're unique in the history of civilization, but I don't think human beings were meant to ingest this much information. What's new is that we are being, we have access to almost like a kind of omni. Omniscient kind of knowledge about what's going on. Almost like a godlike knowledge. We know everything that's going on in the world and I think that causes

[Dr. Gary Habermas]

a lot of anxiety can be applied to God. The foibles of human beings. We do. Well, he's like that. What if he's like so and so, right? He's like my boss. What if he's like, you know, and, but God can't be false. That God's the only one who can't undo, you know, he cannot be less than what he is.

[Daniel (Guest/Co-host)]

So listen to the accusations, whether it's coming from you or Satan. Listen to the accusations brought against God like C.S. lewis's book God in the Dock. Who, who put God on trial and who are. Who, who's making these accusations? Job, right? Who told you you were naked, right? The source is who. Where are you getting this information from? And for me, I know it's mostly me. It's mostly, you know, Satan's in there somewhere, but I'm mostly me.

[Dr. Gary Habermas]

I like what you say, Satan's in there somewhere. But I'm most the problem.

[Daniel (Guest/Co-host)]

I can hear my voice, my own enemy. Well, it's like the, the hymn we just sang in church this Sunday. Ashamed. I hear my mocking voice call out among the scoffers. Now that's talking about being at the foot of the cross. But I think it also fits what we're talking about. How are we let our minds run wild in accusing God absolutely of the same things?

[Dr. Gary Habermas]

How do you think God feels? He, first of all, he doesn't, it doesn't affect him even like Bad things affect our parents because God's not like that either.

[Daniel (Guest/Co-host)]

Well, the whole. His whole anger was emptied on the cross.

[Dr. Gary Habermas]

But Jesus had to suffer arguably the worst death you could.

[Daniel (Guest/Co-host)]

Absolutely the worst.

[Dr. Gary Habermas]

And so, again, going back to this message that I have to give Friday, my thought is, don't challenge God and say, why until you've suffered as much as Jesus has. And if you haven't, if he's justified in letting his son go through this, do you think you deserve better? And if you don't start turning this thing around and don't say, I was a good boy today, I shouldn't be having problems? Well, number one, Jesus suffers far worse. Number two, most of this pain is, like you said, it's put on us by ourselves.

[Daniel (Guest/Co-host)]

And I wonder too, if when we think about Jesus and our relationship to him and what we are, what he calls us to do, I wonder, you know, like, the thing that kept me from suicide decades ago was Romans 12. And basically it was God paraphrasing the way I heard God kind of speak to me over the years. But it was a long, slow, gradual process out of a long, dark tunnel where it's like, be transformed. Present your bodies as living sacrifices and be transformed by the renewing of your mind so that you may know what is acceptable, what is. You can prove what God. What is good, what is right, what is true. I've combined Philippians with Romans 12 there. But the point was that if. If you want to die, God is perfectly able to. To kill you. Just remain alive. That was the hope. It was actually a very hopeful verse. Just remain alive. Just remain alive. You know, let the negativity subside. And I think for me, you know, I think. I don't. I mean, stuff happens and I wonder why. But I think. Do you think, Gary, that the why questions that we have for God are more factual or emotional? I tend to think they're more emotional. Why does this happen? Why does this happen?

[Dr. Gary Habermas]

I think. I think emotional is far more common.

[Daniel (Guest/Co-host)]

Yeah.

[Dr. Gary Habermas]

Even for men who fancy. They're not emotional.

[Daniel (Guest/Co-host)]

Yeah.

[Dr. Gary Habermas]

And, you know, just a minute ago, you quoted Romans 12:1 and 2 poorly, but still at the end of verse 1, by renewing the mind.

[Daniel (Guest/Co-host)]

Yeah, here it is. Let me read it really quickly. Get it right. Therefore, I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. But it goes on to Romans 2. Don't be conformed. But the verse 1, to me, when it. When it kind of came to me over time was remain alive and watch what God will do, be still and know I'm God.

[Dr. Gary Habermas]

But the key is still renewing, renewing your mind. So we remove our mind, I think, primarily by not lying to ourselves, not being our own worst enemy, and defeating ourselves with God's truth. And that's like things like, you're richer than you think by Lutzer or the all sufficiency of Christ and so on, books like that. You're this in Christ. You're this in Christ. I was like, little list when I get them, briefly. You're this in Christ. You're this in Christ. You're this in Christ. All the magnificent things that have been done for us and we don't cite them enough and we doubt every one of them because we don't keep them fresh in our mind. So Romans 2:12 says, by renewing the mind. The key is, I would say that phrase means by changing the way you think from the wrong way you've been thinking to God's truth. That's one of the many verses in scripture that say, get a hold of your thoughts.

[Daniel (Guest/Co-host)]

Well, there's the reference to do not be conformed to this world because this world is filled with trouble, anxiety, despair. And Jesus says, but be of good cheer. I have overcome the world. So I think for me, my negativity and the doubts that I have now, my doubts are emotional and related to my salvation. I don't have factual doubts about the Bible. I mean, you've kind of helped me settle that with, you know, the stuff that's out there that we can know about the resurrection, about textual criticism, about the reliability of the New Testament, the historicity of all these things, facts. I don't, I don't struggle with that. I struggle with the emotional doubt of does God love me?

[Dr. Gary Habermas]

Your worthfulness.

[Daniel (Guest/Co-host)]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Gary Habermas]

That's the case for a lot of.

[Daniel (Guest/Co-host)]

My dad didn't love me, so why would God kind of thing, you know?

[Dr. Gary Habermas]

Well, you learned that growing up. Yeah. So it's a. It's normal for any of us. And the better are being raised, perhaps the less our lies. But if that's what you learned and your dad's not around, so you might throw it on God. You might say, it does translate my father figure.

[Daniel (Guest/Co-host)]

Oh, I've said that a thousand times.

[Dr. Gary Habermas]

Sound like Freud or something. I'm no Freudian, but, but you know, you. It's just normal to think God's like that and he's punishing me.

[Daniel (Guest/Co-host)]

And atheists have accused me of just, oh, your dad died and you just want a daddy in the sky daddy, you know, kind of thing. I was like, no, a dad is the furthest thing that I wanted at any point in my young 20something life. But God broke in and decided, no, come here, son, I'm gonna treat you, you know, But I've been kicking and screaming. And yet his, his gentleness, it's his true, it's so true. I mean, his. To me, that's what it is. The silence that God has, has allowed to pervade my life is just really his gentleness because he could, he could destroy me, you know, I mean, I've had the prayers of God just destroy me, take my life. I'm no better than my dad, you know, and he doesn't. I'm like, why didn't you take my life? Why didn't you kill me? You don't need me, God. You know, And I have survived the negative thinking to where the process of renewing my mind has become more like recognizing God is gracious and merciful and kind and compassionate and slow to anger, all of that stuff. But you have to start seeing the negativity in.

[Dr. Gary Habermas]

You have to catch it.

[Daniel (Guest/Co-host)]

You have to catch it. Because I think we doubt. We have the doubts. Because what I'm hearing, you're saying and what I'm. What I'm coming to the conclusion of our doubts maybe are unexamined negativity. We don't even realize how much we've contributed.

[Dr. Gary Habermas]

Because you think that when you talk to yourself, you're telling yourself the truth.

[Daniel (Guest/Co-host)]

You're not.

[Dr. Gary Habermas]

You're not.

[Daniel (Guest/Co-host)]

Half the time you're lying. You're lying to yourself.

[Dr. Gary Habermas]

And God tells us to root that out. Many passages, Proverbs and psalms, have a lot of these. Change your thinking and they give you a different prescription for who God is and what he's done. Yeah, if he's the. If he's the God who raised Jesus from the dead, think of what he's done for us and how powerful that is. And it took me a long time, I mean, 20 years from my doubt. And then I had to watch my great grandmother die at the beginning. My wife died at the end. And by God's grace, my doubts never returned. I'm not saying they couldn't. But I have to keep myself. I'm like you. I'm so sure the facts, they don't worry me. But I do question where I am with him. So I try to keep myself. I try to do my own renewing, to use Romans 12, 1 daily so that. And even when I'm driving a car or I'm walking here or I'm doing this, I try to say things like, okay, now what truths can I. And I play games with us. I'm very competitive and I play games myself. Name five things that can reinforce that God's done in my life. Or here's one I like to do. I keep little lists of prayer requests that I've seen over my last. Last month. Okay, write down how many. Definitely. These look like really definite prayer answers. And after about a month, I'm really encouraged by the list and I drop it in my prayer file. And someday I can go back there and see all answers to prayer. But, you know, we sing that song, count your blessings, name them one by one, and it will surprise you what the Lord's done. Why surprise you? Because we're dogging them all the time and we're dogging ourselves all the time. So I make lists so I can remind myself of what he's done in my life. And then I'm going to go and

[Daniel (Guest/Co-host)]

Gary, don't you get? Don't you get. I think another way we dog ourselves is we dismiss the way people appreciate or express appreciation for what we do. I have several people at church who really like what I do. And I dismiss it because I don't like the attention. But in a sense, yes, but in one sense, listen to the encouragement that God is bringing through other people. Don't just dismiss it.

[Dr. Gary Habermas]

I keep on my computer, I keep what I call a rainy day file. And I say, I'm like the, let's say a baseball player who hits a lot of home runs and somebody sticks a mic in his face and says, what do you think about setting the all time record for this or the all time record for that? Players frequently use this, something like this phrase. They'll say someday. I'll stop and consider in my old age what, what milestones I hit. Right now I'm just moving forward to the next one. But I keep those because I want to review them someday. Well, so when, when students write to me, and I don't mean just the, hey, you're a good guy, that's not anything big. But when they tell me something special, when you said this in, in class the other day, I want you to know it freed me from this. They tell me some. It goes in my rainy day file.

[Daniel (Guest/Co-host)]

There you go.

[Dr. Gary Habermas]

And that thing gets long and long and long and someday I want to take a look at it and I want to grow because to me Ministry is. Is the highest form of.

[Daniel (Guest/Co-host)]

I got a letter from a student I used to teach middle school. And it was about four or five years after I had been out of the classroom. I got a. An email from a student and she had. Was suicidal in my class. Not because of. I don't know what was going on, circumstances, but she was a dutiful straight A student. I never saw that, Gary. I never saw the despair in this young girl's life. She was telling me all about this and she said she became a Christian in high school after because of the way we would talk about Jesus in class. And it blew me away. And that just came out of left field. It totally shocked me. It was surprising. And that was a tough year for me as a teacher. I didn't think I was doing much any good, but. I hear you, but you know what I'm talking about. You get. Yeah.

[Dr. Gary Habermas]

One time I was an ice hockey coach at Liberty. I was head coach for eight or nine years. And after it was all over, one of my best players wrote me an email. And he was rough as anything. He enjoyed fighting. He did a lot of things. But he wrote and he said, I want to tell you something. Not many guys on the team will tell you this, but he said, those years you are a coach, you were more than a coach. You were like a pastor to us. And he said, I am sure I would be addicted to drugs today if I hadn't played hockey and you had been there for me. And I interpreted in your words that you cared about us. And so I want you to want to tell you thank you for coaching for all those years I was at Liberty because I learned some spiritual lessons. And because of that, I'm, you know. And he just went on a little bit. He said, I'm free from this. I'm doing this. I'm active in my church. And I wouldn't have been if I hadn't met you and I'd been on drugs and strung out now and this and that. Thank you for being what you were in my life. Just like, you know, the scale and. And right away that goes in my rainy day file. And I know where it is. And I don't study those, you know, I mean, but someday I want to look at them.

[Daniel (Guest/Co-host)]

Well, it's like Paul says, whatever things are true and noble. Lovely. Think on these things, give thanks in all things. Scriptures are replete for us to be thinking good thoughts about God and not

[Dr. Gary Habermas]

true thoughts, true thoughts. Because good thoughts are lies.

[Daniel (Guest/Co-host)]

That's right. We have no Reason, Gary, in our hamster wheel of negativity to think of God in any accusatory, negative kind of way. It's just not in there.

[Dr. Gary Habermas]

He couldn't be doing what you think he's doing if he wanted to, which he doesn't. I say that that way to the class so they can see the whole thing. He can't do what you accuse him of even if he wanted to, which he doesn't anyway. And then we see how tightly the spiral is wound and what we've done to ourselves. Yeah, God couldn't act that way.

[Daniel (Guest/Co-host)]

It's like Spurgeon said in the. In the sermon that I was reading recently. It's when you. When you struggle with doubt and then you realize the good news, it's almost too good to be true. It almost really seems too good to be true. How could God be that good to me?

[Dr. Gary Habermas]

Love you that much? Love me that much, which is the main thing a lot of people struggle with. How could God love me when I'm so unlovely? Well, of course, one of those answers is he sees you through his son. He sees you as completed. He sees you as forgiven. And that's those list of things that we. Back to. You're richer than you think, Lutzer. And the things we have. But he looks at us through Jesus and he sees somebody different than we really are. Yeah, and. But the worst thing we can do is keep lying to ourselves because you put us back to Jeremiah. We said you make that well deeper, deeper, deeper, and you're further from getting out.

[Daniel (Guest/Co-host)]

We're our own worst persecutors.

[Dr. Gary Habermas]

We are really that.

[Daniel (Guest/Co-host)]

So, Gary, if we've. If somebody's listening and they've been touched by what we're saying, where do they go on your website to find the resources that we mentioned at the beginning?

[Dr. Gary Habermas]

Well, there's a couple places, the two books that are on the website, they're under. Under garyhabermast.com and up in the upper left, there's a books tab.

[Daniel (Guest/Co-host)]

Okay.

[Dr. Gary Habermas]

Under the books tab, the two are there. And there's a couple other chapters that might help them. Here, there. Chapters and other books. But on my YouTube site, which is different, I think I have. I don't even really know. I may have as many as 400 videos there on my YouTube site, and I have a bunch of them on Doubt. So I talk through these things the same way I have with you now. And we. You and I have done before, and so they might. Sometimes we do better when we're not just Reading something when someone's communicating with us and we're learning from language and how things move. And I think if they check out the YouTube site, they'll find a lot, probably. And we'll link dozens of things on doubt.

[Daniel (Guest/Co-host)]

We'll link your website, we'll link your YouTube channel. In the notes of our podcast episode, if people hadn't had a chance to hear that, we'll make sure that you get connected with some things.

[Dr. Gary Habermas]

That's a real honor because I find. I think ministry is the highest thing I can do right now.

[Daniel (Guest/Co-host)]

Yeah, and that's. It's. I love to be able to cross minister with other people in other groups and promote what they're doing for the sake of God's glory and helping people stay in the faith and remain alive and be hopeful. So thank you for being hopeful, giving me hope, too, Gary. I mean, it's not just interviewing you.

[Dr. Gary Habermas]

Let me pass a compliment on to you while you were standing here. Now, knowing you, you're probably going to reject what I'm saying. You shouldn't.

[Daniel (Guest/Co-host)]

No, I'm not going to. I'll try not to.

[Dr. Gary Habermas]

You should accept this.

[Daniel (Guest/Co-host)]

Okay.

[Dr. Gary Habermas]

I was impressed as I'm sitting here, and you were saying, well, don't forget, Jeremiah says this. And I'm thinking, man, you're citing one Old Testament passage after another. Who reads the Old Testament? Almost nobody. But you have a good knowledge, and I think you've grown in maturity from having time with the Lord. And I think he's, quote unquote, schooled you. He's in the way of taught. You don't mean punished.

[Daniel (Guest/Co-host)]

No, no, no, I get it. I would agree.

[Dr. Gary Habermas]

And I'm thinking to myself, golly, I'm sitting here listening to this guy, and I've talked to you a lot over the years. I see a different Daniel when I'm talking to you. I think you've grown. I thought, this is cool. This guy's taking time to listen, to read a Spurgeon, think about what's broken. You read a Spurgeon sermon, you read this book. You referred to Telling yourself the truth by Backers and Chappian. A person who does that kind of stuff a lot is growing. And so you have a much richer foundation on which to work than you may have had two years ago.

[Daniel (Guest/Co-host)]

Well, my goal, now that I've been to New Orleans, this is my sixth year here, fifth year. You've seen these. I mean, I live in Texas, where there's a lot of big things, but the live oaks here in New Orleans are amazing. The trees, they're. They're huge. These live oaks. They're just absolutely enormous. And I think about the verse about. I don't know where it is, but being planted like a tree affirm being. Being like a tree just by living water. Right. And the. Just when you look at these trees and how long they must have been alive, some of these trees. 2, 300 years old.

[Dr. Gary Habermas]

That's right.

[Daniel (Guest/Co-host)]

Easy. And they're just beautiful.

[Dr. Gary Habermas]

How many hurricanes have they with.

[Daniel (Guest/Co-host)]

Exactly. And. Right. That's the other thing. They're not just trees. They're not just beautiful trees. These trees have lived through a few hurricanes, including Katrina. But, you know, that's the kind of, I think, what Jesus asked us to be in terms of what he can do with the life. Those trees were all just acorns, you know, and so.

[Dr. Gary Habermas]

And he tells us to use another tree illustration. He tells us to put our roots down deeper and deeper and deeper. Like a pine tree has very shallow roots and they're torn up in storms. But an oak tree has deeper.

[Daniel (Guest/Co-host)]

These live oaks tear up. I mean, sidewalks in Louisiana are all torn up. Streets are all torn up because the root system of these trees are enormous.

[Dr. Gary Habermas]

I've got some trees in my backyard like that, and I. I can't believe how far they are out of the ground.

[Daniel (Guest/Co-host)]

Yeah.

[Dr. Gary Habermas]

And that's what we're told to do.

[Daniel (Guest/Co-host)]

Yeah.

[Dr. Gary Habermas]

To learn and grow and read and praise and learn these things that. That will make us deeper.

[Podcast Host]

You've been listening to Apologetics Profile, a podcast ministry of Watchmen Fellowship Incorporated. For more information about our ministry and resources, visit our website at watchman.

[Daniel (Guest/Co-host)]

Org.