516. How To Witness To An Atheist

Summary

Apologia Radio, Episode 516: "How To Witness To An Atheist" (March 24, 2025)

Overview

In this episode, the Apologia Radio crew (Jeff Durbin, Zack, Luke Conover, and Bradley Pierce) provide a practical deep-dive into how Christians can engage in meaningful, worldview-level conversations with atheists. Rooted in presuppositional apologetics, the team reviews and reflects on a recent hour-long dialogue Jeff had with a thoughtful young atheist at the University of Texas, Austin. They examine the apologetic method, the logical and moral foundations underpinning Christian witness to skeptics, and the inseparable link between apologetics and evangelism.

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Key Themes & Discussion Points

Presuppositional Apologetics: The Starting Point Matters

• Biblical Grounding for Knowledge: The team lays out the apologetic framework—knowledge and certainty begin with God’s revelation, not with human neutrality. The principle of "sola scriptura" (scripture alone) forms the Christian's standard for truth, and abandoning it in apologetics is a critical mistake.
  • "Do I engage in neutrality? Like, do I come up to the unbeliever who denies the voice of his Creator... and try to engage… like he’s pretending to at the moment? ...We would say, no, you can't do that." – Jeff Coleman (12:16)
• No Neutral Ground: The hosts stress there’s no true neutrality: Christians and non-believers alike operate from presuppositions, and the very act of reasoning on neutral ground is, itself, a non-Christian assumption.

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Apologetics & Evangelism: Inseparable

• Apologetics and evangelism are, according to the hosts, two sides of one coin. The presuppositional method presses its ultimate aim—calling people to repentance—into every apologetic encounter.
  • "You cannot... separate your apologetic methodology from your evangelism." – Jeff Coleman (18:06)
  • "Get him to the place where he has to surrender or deny." – Jeff Coleman (64:54)

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The Content of the Campus Conversation

The Foundation for Proof (19:35–26:10)

• The Core Argument: Jeff, with input from Bradley, explains to the atheist that "the proof of the Christian God is that apart from Him you can't prove anything." This is known as the Transcendental Argument for God.
  • For proof, you need:
    • Laws of logic (invariant, immaterial, universal)
    • The assumption of the uniformity of nature (principle of induction)
    • Ethical obligations (e.g., not to lie when giving proof)
  • "In what worldview am I not permitted to lie about evidence?" – Jeff Coleman (21:36)
• The Atheist Response: The young man acknowledges these issues but initially tries to argue that ethical norms and logic are not necessarily tied to the Christian God.

Notable Quote

“The proof of the Christian God is that apart from Him, you can’t prove anything. What is required for proof? Laws of logic, uniformity in nature, ethical obligations not to lie about the proof.”
— Bradley Pierce (19:42)

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Why Only the Christian God? (26:10–28:20)

• The hosts counter the popular apologetic tactic of defending a "generic god," instead insisting that only the Triune God of the Bible provides the foundation for knowledge, ethics, and logic. Other concepts of deity (e.g., Mormonism, Godzilla) cannot account for immaterial, universal laws or absolute morality.

Notable Moment

“If you try to use [any other god or religion]… as your source of truth, at some point it will fall apart.”
— Luke Conover (28:17)

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Logic, Faith, and Materialism (31:38–38:29)

• Materialism’s Limits: Jeff leads the atheist to see that, under strict materialism, universal and immaterial laws (logic, math) shouldn't exist. Yet, both atheists and Christians rely on them constantly.
• Faith and Living Inconsistently: The hosts press that atheists "live by faith" just as much as Christians do, but their faith is "blind and stupid"—it cannot be justified by their own worldview.
  • “He lives by faith. He hopes that—it’s, it’s blind, stupid faith.” – Jeff Coleman (35:04)

Notable Moment

“You are showing that you depend upon God right now for every moment of your life. ... Yet, you believe a worldview that totally rejects all of that.”
— Bradley Pierce (32:12)

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The Immaterial and Consistency (38:29–49:03)

• Even as the young atheist acknowledges he cannot explain the existence of laws of logic within his worldview, the team draws out the internal inconsistency—atheists must "borrow" immaterial realities (logic, universal ethics) from the Christian worldview to function.
  • “My goal... I do say to him, you’re going to walk away from here and you’re going to live a life that is vastly different from everything you’re telling me.” – Jeff Coleman (49:03)

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Jesus: The Only Foundation for Truth and Morality (50:21–54:41)

• The conversation culminates with a focus on Christ’s unique claims to be "the way, the truth, and the life" and the Bible's assertion that ultimate truth is found in Him alone. The atheist voices appreciation for Jesus’ "helpful" moral teachings but remains unconvinced about his divinity.
  • “So did Jesus. So Jesus is either a fraud and a con man like them, or he is the Lord of glory and he is the truth. That’s all I’m asking you to do, is to think about Jesus in that way.” – Bradley Pierce (56:47)

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The “Goodness” of Christ’s Teachings and Atheist Morality (60:15–66:13)

• The team illustrates how, in an atheistic worldview:
  • Terms like "good" or "unfair" become meaningless, as no objective moral standards exist.
  • Claims about appreciating parts of Jesus’ teaching reflect residue of the image of God in man.
  • In the end, atheist ethics boil down to mere preferences, not binding obligations.

Notable Quote

“Saying something is unfair is saying that there’s a standard of justice that we have to hold to… but then you have to go, as an atheist, ‘nah, it doesn’t really matter anyway.’”
— Jeff Coleman (64:05)

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Nihilism: The Logical End of Consistent Atheism (63:08–68:13)

• As the dialogue concludes, the atheist concedes that—"in the grand scheme of things, nothing"—issues like suffering, injustice, or goodness no longer matter. The hosts underscore: no atheist can actually live consistently with such nihilism.
  • "You can't escape what God made you to be. You live in God's world. There's no escaping him." – Jeff Coleman (68:13)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Proof and Logic:
  “Proof requires logical consistency, laws of logic. It requires uniformity in nature, and it requires that. An ethical obligation to tell the truth.”
  — Bradley Pierce (54:57)

• On Neutrality:
  “At no point in this conversation is there a switching from a position of neutrality towards, okay, let me find my way back to Jesus now. What I've impressed upon him... [is] he's living in God's world. He's dependent upon the God that he knows... His problem is sin.”
  — Jeff Coleman (58:31)

• On the Destination of Atheism:
  “It just ends in nihilism, essentially… it unravels slowly, and then you start to see the cracks, like, in the light, you know?”
  — Zack (63:19)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Introduction of Topic & Presuppositional Apologetics: 08:10–16:46
• Explaining the Christian Standard of Proof: 19:35–25:46
• Defending the Christian God vs. General Deity: 26:10–28:20
• Laws of Logic & Induction Argument: 31:38–36:13
• Justification for Immaterial Laws and Ethics: 38:29–49:03
• Christ, Truth, and Moral Claims: 54:41–60:15
• Collapse of Atheistic Morality/Nihilism: 66:13–68:13

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Closing Reflections

The hosts’ tone is passionate, earnest, and occasionally playful (with recurring inside jokes and ribbing among the crew), but always respectful toward the atheist interlocutor. They stress that their method is designed not to "win arguments" but to press for repentance and to show the Christian faith’s unique, coherent foundation for knowledge, meaning, and ethics.

Final Word:
The episode is both a practical demonstration and theoretical exploration of presuppositional apologetics in action, making the case that Christians shouldn't abandon their foundation when witnessing to skeptics and that the deepest needs and instincts of all people are met only in Christ.

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For further study:

• Full exchange footage will be available via Apologia Studios.
• Visit apologiastudios.com for more resources and upcoming episodes diving into natural law, theonomy, and engaging current cultural issues with a biblical worldview.

Transcript

[Luke Conover]

I would say if the authorities didn't.

[Jeff Coleman]

Want us involved in the public square, they ought not to have crucified Jesus.

[Zack]

In the public square.

[Bradley Pierce]

These humanistic principles, same idea, same end, I would say.

[Jeff Coleman]

What's the problem with stardust?

[Bradley Pierce]

Bumping into stardust in the cosmic picture?

[Jeff Coleman]

No, there's no problem in the cosmic picture. It won't matter. No, Mr. President, you are not protecting reproduction to freedom. You are authorizing the destruction of freedom for one million little human beings every year. I'm sorry, my friends, but I am tired of seeing Jesus presented as a weak beggar. He is a powerful savior. And the gospel is not a suggestion. It is a comm. Reverend Mola, don't you sympathize with that? I sympathize with every single human heart wishing to know the one true and living God. But I believe there's only one way that that can happen. Through Jesus Christ. And the gospel is about repenting of sin, not celebrating it.

[Luke Conover]

Right now you're on the threshold of an amazing adventure. We will explore the spiritual abyss. You have not experienced this. You're going to love it.

[Jeff Coleman]

What's up, everybody? There you go. There you go.

[Zack]

Yeah, we're here.

[Jeff Coleman]

The fool says in his heart there is no God. This is the gospel heard around the world. Weird start. One of those days. Yes. This is the gospel heard around the world, everybody. You can get [e-mail] we're just. We're like, let's just keep going. Everything's just falling apart here right now. This is the gospel heart around the world, y'. All. You can get more at apologiastudios.com a P O L O G I A studios.com that's Luke the bear.

[Luke Conover]

What up?

[Jeff Coleman]

I'm Jeff the Coleman and ninja that Zachary Conover. Hello. Director of communications and abortion. Now don't forget to everyone go to apology studios.com Sign up for all access account. The app is underway. We're having an appy soon and it's going to be great. Sign up for all access. You get all kinds of additional content and you partner with us in all the ministry that we do here. So the gospel that has gone out around the entire world. Hundreds of millions of of views of the content here at apologia studios across platforms. All that's made possible, the gospel going out, all the teaching ministry of apologia church because of partners just like you in this ministry. Apologia all access is available at apologiastudios.com you get all kinds of additional content. You get the academy, you get the after show, you get all the full episodes of Collision. You get all kinds of stuff. The Ask Me Anything private stream. We sit together, you ask questions. And so big thank you to everybody who's a part of this ministry with us. Don't forget also to sign up for your Bonson U account. It is totally for free at apologiastudios.com get some of the great training from one of the Christian church's best philosophers and apologists in the whole history of the Christian Church, Dr. Greg Bonson. It is all there. All his life's work. Is there like 2000 audio lectures, debates, sermons, all that stuff. Top tier seminary level education for freezies just for you. And by the way, it's not completely for freezies because all the all access partners in ministry are making that available to you. And so here we go, guys. We are back. Just one quick announcement. Want to let everybody know as you're praying for what's going on around the country right now. This ministry of End Abortion now we are working together with a number of abolitionist ministries and churches across the country. We have bills of abolition and equal protection happening right now in session across the country from Texas to Georgia. South Carolina, Maine is happening now. Idaho, Iowa, North Dakota happened. We have Kentucky and Ohio's dropping soon. Tennessee. I know I'm missing some. It's happening across the country right now. Everyone knows we're waiting for a hearing in the state of Georgia. We got it. It's happening now. It's scheduled for March 26th. That's next Wednesday, March 26th, Atlanta, Georgia at the Capitol. I need you there. I need hundreds of you to show up. I need thousands of you to show up. I'm going to be there at the legislature testifying with Emory Donahue and with Bradley Pierce and hopefully Brian Gunter before the legislature for HB441, the bill of equal protection and abolition in the state of Georgia. It got a hearing. I know there were some rumors that it died. It didn't die. I just missed the crossover date. But we did get a hearing March 26, next Wednesday. Please join me, join me at the Capitol. We're going to have everybody there filling the hallways of the Capitol and all the floors of the Capitol with little, just simple signs that say please say yes to HB441, equal protection for all humans in Georgia. And so we need you there. It's going to embolden the legislators to know that they have the support of the Community and their constituents to pass this bill. So I need you to please come and join me. Come meet together with me. Come shake my hand in the state of Georgia again. Pray for us. We're going to be testifying there at the legislature on behalf of the bill. March 26, next week, Atlanta, Georgia, at the state Capitol. That is what's up.

[Zack]

Can I just say, too, like, they're the interior of their capitol building, like so many others around the country, has it going on. It's just absolutely gorgeous. It is beautiful, rich in history. And then you come to Arizona and it's embarrassing.

[Jeff Coleman]

Embarrassing. Our capital in comparison to other states capitals is absolutely, undeniably embarrassing. Yeah.

[Zack]

Scripture all over the walls. Like stories of guys that, like, invented anesthesia that were Christians drawing from the biblical worldview, like, things like that. It's just like what.

[Jeff Coleman]

Yeah, South Carolina is, Is. Is a crazy capital.

[Zack]

Missouri, Missouri, Bible verses all over the pillars and everything.

[Jeff Coleman]

Yeah. It's just powerful. And ours is like me, me. So, anyway, welcome back, everybody. We wanted to do something valuable for all of you today. We have a lot of things coming up soon that I think informative, instructive, helpful for the church. We're going to try to engage a bit with Stephen Wolf's position on natural law and of course, his denials of theonomy, the law of God, as abiding and relevant today in many respects. And so we're gonna be handling that in the upcoming weeks and hopefully put together something very valuable for you in that area. But we wanted to today review an interaction that I had, an opportunity I had in Texas while I was in Austin for the bill of abolition in Austin. We were at the Capitol there for that. And so we went to the Texas University at Austin and got into some great conversations. We have more of that content that is coming right now. Carmen's working on all that for you guys right now, getting that edited and broken down for you and colored and everything else. But for now, we have the first conversation he was able to put up. It's with a young atheist who was very, very gracious, very intellectual, smart, smart kid. Loved having a conversation with him. Super sweet guy. And the conversation's a little over an hour long. And it started, of course, because we were there, you know, talking about abolition at the Texas University and some great conversations, good interactions. Right.

[Zack]

I mean, you're in the heart of Austin, which is like the blueberry and the tomato soup.

[Jeff Coleman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Zack]

Of Texas. Right?

[Jeff Coleman]

That's a good way to say that. Blueberry and tomato soup. I like that. I'm gonna start taking that. That's a good one. Yeah. I mean, it's obviously a lot of footage. Super. You know, a high population of liberals there at that, at that college. And so you had some good interactions, you know, at a table, people walking up to a microphone. That's all coming. The foundation to Abolish Abortion has already put a bunch of those clips up. And so Carmen's behind the ball on that. And so, you know, if you have a problem with it, make sure you guys send special messages to the contact that apology, whatever. I don't even know what our email address is, so please don't. I'm not even gonna say it because people start actually doing it.

[Luke Conover]

Don't.

[Jeff Coleman]

Anyway, so I got into a conversation, started off, and we're going to skip that portion. Started off talking about the issue of abortion and then it kind of led right easily into a conversation with this young man about his beliefs as an atheist. And you know, because he's such an intelligent guy, I was able to get into some, some, some deeper stuff with him. I mean, I think a lot of times that there may be easier ways to, to put your finger on the image of God with an atheist, more sort of direct and simple one liners that sort of take the legs off of the atheist position. But he was just a good guy and was, was really curious and wanted to know the answers and so you.

[Zack]

Could tell he wanted to understand the argument you were making.

[Jeff Coleman]

Yeah. And so I got to, you know, go into some deeper stuff with him. And I guess before we start the conversation, if you're new to apologia, you should know that our perspective on the methodology of apologetics is, is very specific. If you want to know our position, it would be under the school of presuppositional apologetics or covenantal apologetics, transcendental argumentation. And essentially it is, is it can be summed up in that God has spoken, that we know and have certainty because God has revealed himself in history. We have his word, we have special revelation. So essentially we have what is called an epistemological, a revelational epistemology. Now don't let it throw you if you're new to this conversation. This is just a question of how do you know that's true. Like if somebody says to you, hey, you ought not to kill that guy over there, like, you can't just walk up to him and kill him. And then somebody should, should be able to ask the question, well, how do you know that? Like, how do you know what, what certainty do you have for that as an ethical system? That I can't engage in the unjustified taking of human life? Because remember, though, people want to just grant that and assume that. Many people today want to grant that. Assume. And assume that because they have been the, the beneficiaries of all the work of Christians before us and the gospel and Christian standards of law and morality and the image of God and all that. But you can ask the question, you know, how do you know? Or you know, when it comes to something like as simple as saying, you know, I think that you have to be reasonable. You have to not engage in logical contradiction. Somebody could say to that one, how do you know? How do you know that is true? And that's. It's not unfair or it's not just some Christian trick to ask the question. If you go to universities across the country around the world right now, if they're worth their salt, they're going to have programs, lectures, classes in the university on the subject of epistemology. Epistemology is a theory of knowledge. How do I know? How can I gain knowledge? How do I know something is true? Is certainty possible? And so we hold to the perspective that is very much tied to our theological position as reformed people. Sola scriptura is that old position. It, of course it was. The bright light was shown on it during the time of the Reformation. But you have Athanasius testifying to it. You have Augustine testifying to it. Many of the great fathers of the Christian, Christian faith testify to the principle of sola scriptura, and that is that scripture is the standard, is the reference point. It's how you know something is true. Right? It's the plumb line. It's the measuring line, by the way. I'm getting a lot of that right now. We'll help my father in law, like, is that true? Is it right?

[Luke Conover]

You know, he's using a plumb line.

[Jeff Coleman]

Well, not. He's using a plumb. Using more advanced techniques today and tools today. But we're hearing, I'm hearing as I'm helping my father in law, who's, you know, been in Construction for 50 years of his life, build something, doing that a lot. Is it true? Is it right? And, and so the point you're making.

[Zack]

Is that without the standard, the structure cannot be erected.

[Jeff Coleman]

That's exactly right. I'm, I'm, I'm learning that more and more now as I'm, as I'm doing this.

[Luke Conover]

And well, it can be erected, but it will collapse it won't hold.

[Zack]

It won't hold together because all things hold together.

[Jeff Coleman]

Is that true?

[Zack]

In His Word, is it true?

[Jeff Coleman]

Is it right? You're going to take the measuring line, you're going to get the thing to say, okay, yep, that's absolutely true. And so for the principle of Sola scriptura, of course, is the. The sola scriptur is stated as, that the Scriptures are the sole infallible rule of faith and practice for the Church. Okay, that's the principle of sola scriptura stated. The Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are the sole infallible rule of faith and practice. Again, it's not saying. And you have to announce this, unfortunately, it's not saying. As Christians, you can't have standards of this is true. Like the Westminster Confession of faith, the 1689 London Baptist confession of faith, the Heidelberg confession, confession, 39 articles, those sorts of things. Great stuff, you know, Nicene Creed, all that good stuff. It's not to say you can't have those things, but those things are only true insofar as they are in line with the ultimate standard, which is the revelation of God. So here's the point. That principle in, in church history of Sola Scriptura, that you test everything by the revealed word of God in inspired Scripture, that principle has at the heart of it very simply, God has spoken. His word is true. He's the truth. His Word is true. So how do you bring that into conflict with the world when it comes to apologetics? Like, how do I defend the faith? Do I abandon the voice of God when I'm engaging in apologetics and trying to weirdly defend the Christian faith while abandoning the Christian faith? It seems strange, right? In other words, do I engage in neutrality? Like, do I come up to the unbeliever who denies the voice of his Creator and the. In the existence of his Creator? Do I come up to him and try to engage in the conversation like he's pretending to at the moment? And that is it. We're neutral. We're in this world. We're just trying to figure it out. Let's see where all the evidence points us. We would say, no, you can't do that. You can't engage in. In the. The method. You can't have a methodological principle engaging in. In with the unbeliever where you abandon your commitment to Christ as Lord and the word of God as true at the outset. And so we have a revelational epistemology. We say we know we have certainty because God has spoken again, that's at the. The heart of Sola Scriptura. So as Reformed folks, I can't see how we could possibly deny that. But when it comes to engagement with the world, we're saying that there is no neutrality. The unbeliever is not neutral. God says as much that they're not neutral and we're not neutral. Jesus says, if whoever's not with me is against me. And so we can't try to defend the Christian faith while denying the Christian faith. Defend Jesus as Lord while denying. Jesus as Lord is saying, maybe he's not. And so we would say that. That you can come into conflict with the world in a way that is not faithful to Christ and also is not consistent. It is not actually consistent when you engage in a neutral position, saying, let's just see where the evidence takes us. We have a different perspective. We have a perspective that, say, God has spoken. We're not neutral. The unbeliever is not neutral either. The unbeliever knows God. They're suppressing the truth about God and unrighteousness. And so what we need to do is we need to stand on the rock of God's Word as we defend God's Word. And what we say is that God's Word is the very starting point for knowledge, for wisdom, for truth, for questions about beauty, truth, goodness, all of that. You have to have God's Word at the start, or none of this makes sense. So I don't want to abandon that.

[Zack]

That is the proof.

[Jeff Coleman]

You know, one of the best ways to say it. Now, oddly, this sounds so weird to say. One of the best ways to state it. What happened to my computer? There you go. Is Jordan Peterson weird when he was on Joe Rogan? We mentioned this at some point in the past. I think we did. Jordan Peterson was talking about the Bible and the Bible as true. And Jordan Peterson sort of like broke down presuppositional apologetics or revelational epistemology in, like, a matter of a few seconds. And I'm like, is he reading Van Till or Bonson? Like, that's wild. He said to Joe Rogan, he said, the Bible's not just true, it's truer than true. He said, it's actually the necessary starting point for any claims about truth at all. Something to that effect. And it was like, something like that. That's it. Like, that's what Alvin Plantinga says. That's what Bonson has said. That's what Ventilla said. That's essentially a revelational epistemology that you need God's word at the starting point to have certainty and knowledge about anything at all.

[Zack]

Without it, truth is a meaningless concept.

[Luke Conover]

Right?

[Jeff Coleman]

With unbeliever. And that comes up in this conversation like he wants to believe things that are true. It's like, not if you're not a Christian. Like, you know, a person saying, I demand that it's rational and consistent. I demand that there's evidence. I want to know that it's true. Don't lie to me about the proof. It's like, boy, oh boy, you're acting like you love Jesus because. Because that's the Christian position. You don't get that with atheism. So the. The what? We're laying that down at the start. If you're new to this conversation in terms of how we approach this. I'm not. Look, I'm not the standard here, by the way. I'm just saying that, like, I'm not the standard here. There are much better men than me. I'm standing on the shoulders of. Of giants in my own life. But what I hope you can notice, and I hope I was doing it as faithfully as possible, is that at no point in this conversation am I assuming neutrality, am I assuming his position and simply saying, maybe you're right, Maybe you're right. The whole entire time I'm trying to stand on the revelation of God, the lordship of Jesus Christ, and I'm testifying to this young man what God says about him to bring him ultimately what. And this is the summary to the place where I can call him to repentance and faith and give him the gospel.

[Zack]

So it's the relationship between apologetics and evangelism that was it, woven together.

[Jeff Coleman]

That's it. What we would say is just that point. You cannot, if you're going to be consistent and faithful, separate your apologetic methodology from your evangelism. We're saying that if you are consistent and submitted to the authority of Christ, the rock of God's word, then you're. Then your apologetic and your evangelism are going to be wrapped up together. There's not going to be this stark separation. At some point you're going to recognize in how the presuppositionalist does this versus the classical apologist, or, you know, whatever, you're going to notice that the presuppositionalist at no point is going, okay, now.

[Bradley Pierce]

Let me start reasoning like a Christian.

[Jeff Coleman]

And try to find a way to squeeze Christ in here. The whole time I've been standing on the Word, the word of God as the Reference point. The whole time I've been pushing them towards what God says about them.

[Zack]

It's remarkably logical and in the conclusion that it draws, if Jesus is lord over every area of life, including our thinking and our reasoning, then that means that any intellectual endeavor apart from him is futility. Therefore, you must submit to him on his terms.

[Jeff Coleman]

Right.

[Zack]

That's really the call.

[Jeff Coleman]

Very good. Anything you want to add, Pastor Luke.

[Bradley Pierce]

Before we start going?

[Luke Conover]

Let's do this.

[Jeff Coleman]

All right, so here we go. This was at the University of Texas, Austin. This is about 42 minutes. And I figured this is a good, good place to start the conversation because it. Some good connection points start to get made here after I kind of build a few things.

[Bradley Pierce]

What I'm saying is, I'm saying. Ready? Maybe this will help it. You're helping me to understand what you're articulating.

[Jeff Coleman]

Let's seek it together.

[Bradley Pierce]

The proof of the Christian God is apart from him, you can't prove anything.

[Young Atheist]

Wait, could you elaborate on that?

[Jeff Coleman]

Okay.

[Bradley Pierce]

The proof of the Christian God is that apart from him, you can. You can't prove anything. What is required for proof? Laws of logic, uniformity in nature, ethical obligations not to lie about the proof. Right. So if I came to you right now and you said, hey, prove God to me, and I just invented something fictional, and you're like, dang, that's a good proof. And I'm like, yeah, I'm lying to you. That's wrong. It's absolutely morally wrong. All proof.

[Jeff Coleman]

All proof.

[Bradley Pierce]

Proof requires laws of logic, principle of induction, and ethical obligations not to lie.

[Jeff Coleman]

So it's good to pull in and take a look at this right now. So that statement right there, the proof of the Christian God is apart from him, you can't prove anything. That is to say, that you cannot justify. There are no. Just simple brute facts. All right? That's the point. Like, you know, there's no brute facts. Everything is. Is interpreted. There's presuppositions. There's things necessary surrounding facts to make them coherent or to be seen as true. And so, like, just take as a quick example, a snappy example. Say this young atheist guy goes, you know, give me evidence of God's existence. And then I actually had prepared maliciously for the conversation, and I paid 500 people behind me to lie with me about something that occurred 24 hours prior to that in Austin. Let's say that he says, prove it to me. I go, oh, you didn't know? You haven't. You haven't heard the witness. And. And Seen the news? He goes, no, no, I've been busy doing my classes and homework the last 24 hours. What happened? And I go, I got 500 eyewitnesses here that say that actually Jesus Christ showed up yesterday. He showed up and started healing blind people and sick people. He actually took us, all 500 of us, to the children's hospital here in Austin. And he was just, he healed a bunch of people there. Like he appeared. And he even told us that we were going to have a conversation with you. Like this is all planned and prepared. Talk to any of the 500 people right here, all of them will tell you what I'm saying is the absolute truth. He's like, no way. And so he goes talks to 500 people who were all paid to lie. Now what's the problem there? Is it a problem if somebody asks for proof? Is it a problem for me to completely manufacture fictitious evidence? Is that a problem? Is it wrong or immoral or unethical to do that? And of course the atheist says, yeah, you can't do that. You can't lie. You can't lie about evidence and want the truth. Like you're not allowed to just sit and tell me lies about evidence. You're not permitted to do that. Okay, in what worldview am I not permitted to lie about evidence? Because if what the atheist says is true about our origins, the nature of human beings, the nature of reality, this universe that we live in, if what they write in their books is true, then it ain't a problem for me to pull together 500 false witnesses and pay them to lie and give this, this fictitious evidence to the atheist. It's not a, it's not a problem, it's not immoral, survival of the fittest, it's just what is. I want my team to win. And if I got to pay a little cash to make my team win, then what's the problem with that? So the atheists may not like people being dishonest and lying about evidence, but they don't have a worldview that comports with that dislike. I mean, it is what it is. People lie. Different sounds come out of these, these creatures mouths. True or not true, Is it relevant? And so you don't need a Christian to tell you this. Just read the many books written by atheist ethicists. They'll tell you there's no imminent morality, there's no ultimate morality, there's no justice ahead of any of us. There's no right, there's no wrong, there's no good, there's no evil, only blind and pitiless indifference. That's what they say. But do they live that way? They don't live that way. And this young atheist who's like, I want to know that this is true. I want to know that Christianity is true, that Jesus claims are true. I want to know if. Give me the proof. And so what I said to him was, the proof of the Christian God is that apart from him, can't prove anything. What do you need for proof? Has to be reasonable. You got to appeal to the laws of logic, which are invariant, unchanging, universal, true, necessary truths. You have to have induction, the principle of induction, that the future will be like the past, that we live in an ordered universe that can be dependent upon. It can be clocked. We can depend upon future experiences being congruent with past experiences. You need that for science. You need it for logic. You need to brush your teeth, you need to get out of bed in the morning, you need to drive your car, you need to build bridges, and you have to have the ethical responsibilities necessary to engage in the question of proving something. And how do you get that in atheism? You don't. You get it with the Christian God. That point on the ethical thing someone says, how? Well, when we talk as Christians about an ethical obligation not to lie, what are we basing it on? The character of God, the infinite, unchangeable character of God. What do we say in the catechism is what is God? God is a spirit, infinite, eternal, unchangeable in his being, wisdom, justice, holiness, goodness, and truth. And when we talk about God and his nature, it says specifically in Scripture, God cannot lie. And God, it says, God is love. Love does no harm to its neighbor. And so what does a Christian have based upon the character of God and even the command of God, I have an absolute moral obligation. To do what? Tell the truth. Don't lie. Lying is a sin. It is absolutely immoral. God doesn't lie. We're made in his image. God commands us not to lie. And so you have a basis to say, I must tell the truth. I'm obligated to tell the truth. And if I don't tell the truth, I'm not being like God. I'm sinning against God. And what is ahead of me with lying? Justice. Do you see that? And so there's. There's a starting point to the conversation, okay?

[Bradley Pierce]

That doesn't comport with atheism and only comports with the Christian worldview. So if you don't start with God in the question, you can't prove anything at all.

[Young Atheist]

Okay, but how does. Okay, so I agree that. Well, here's the thing is what are you defining as a God for this? And why would you.

[Jeff Coleman]

I'm not.

[Bradley Pierce]

I'm a God, not a God. That's what the true and living God who's revealed himself.

[Young Atheist]

This whole thing just feels like in history, like illogical to me.

[Bradley Pierce]

I'm really doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. Illogical things aren't a problem in atheistic WorldView.

[Jeff Coleman]

Have you two things briefly, you guys feel free to jump in anytime. That point there where he said like some a God, and I made the point, not a God, the God. I hope you do see the difference. And I'm not trying to speak disparagingly about other believers who have a different mythological approach. I think they're an error and I think they're inconsistent. But I'm not trying to be nasty towards them. But think about this engagement and how presuppositional apologists want to engage in this kind of evangelism over against someone like William Lane Craig, where he has done public talks at universities where he literally says to people, I'm not here defending the Christian God. Like what I'm saying tonight works with, you know, general monotheism, like, you know, Islam or Judaism, you know, and some a general deity. Like, I'm not here to defend the Christian God tonight. I'm just giving you the, you know, these things that prove, you know, a general deity. So I hope you see, like we see that as a massive problem. How do you get to. I'm defending a general deity to the command of God to repent and believe and believe in Jesus. Like those things are worlds apart. But when it comes to how we want to do this as presuppositional apologists, I wanted to make that correction. I'm not defending a general deity, not a God. The true and living God, the God that you're accountable to, the God that you're sinning against. The God if you don't turn to, you will be condemned forever. And I say that to him in this conversation and we still get along just fine.

[Luke Conover]

So, yeah, I was going to say quickly because there's, there's some good questions in the chat related to what you're just saying. And you know, the questions basically are like, well, okay, so I agree with what you're saying, but how do you go from there to it's only God of the Bible, it's only Jesus, you know, the short Answer to that is that apart. Well, that's the only true, using that term, objective source of morality, of truth, that stays true when tested any other God or religion, if you try to use them or that belief system as your starting point, as your source of truth, at some point it will fall apart.

[Jeff Coleman]

Right.

[Luke Conover]

And so that's to answer those questions.

[Jeff Coleman]

Yeah, you can't just. This is what's important. You can't simply plug in any general deity and say, well, I can do the same thing with Godzilla. And that, that was by the way, what Dr. Clark tried to pull in our debate with him at the University of Utah. Dr. James White and I debated Dr. Clark and Dan Ellis, I believe his name was, at the University of Utah. Go look that up. Afterwards you'll see the cross examination and everything else. But like Clark tried to pull that as well, which shows that he just has never reasoned in this realm before. He said I could just say Godzilla for what you're saying, the triune God of holy scripture. I'm saying Godzilla. It's like, no, that's not what's happening here, my friend. Okay, let's give it a shot. Let's try Godzilla. Can Godzilla. Can Godzilla ism provide the preconditions for an immaterial aspect to reality as well? No. How's that? Because Godzilla has mommy and daddies, mommies and daddy. Godzilla is a part of the created order. Godzilla is an all powerful over creation, creating out of nothing. Godzilla isn't an immaterial being. And, and, and has physical aspects to, to the created order and all those things. Godzilla is part of the created order. Right. He doesn't provide the preconditions for any of these things. Nothing transcendent, no order to the universe, no immaterial real of math or the laws of logic. None of those things or the ethical absolutes that rest purely in Godzilla. Godzilla is a part of creation. He's a created thing. And so I would even say, I would go so far as to say even the God of Mormonism can't get plugged in here as well. Because just on the ethical aspect, the ethical problem as providing the preconditions necessary for ethics, absolute moral oughts. The God of Mormonism, Elohim, he had a mommy and daddy before him, who had a mommy and daddy before him, or them. And Elohim actually sinned. Elohim went through the same law of progression that all of us apparently go through, where he sinned and failed and he grew into exaltation. And guess what? He's not the Ultimate God. So he doesn't have the ultimate say. And guess what else? The God of Mormonism, Elohim is part of the created order. He's part of this order itself. He was created and he was just part of this material of material thing in the first place. So that doesn't work either. And so you need the specific God of the Bible to provide the preconditions for all of these aspects of human experience. Whether it's engaging in debate, whether it's investigation, whether it's science, whether it's dealing in the area of ethical absolutes. You need the triune God of Holy Scripture as the starting point for all these things. And wouldn't you know it to be true? The proverbs say, what about the fear of the Lord? The fear of the Lord is the beginning, the beginning of knowledge. The fear of the Lord is the beginning, not the conclusion. Right? It is the beginning. It's the very starting point. And it says, of course in Colossians it says that in Christ are hidden all, all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. So if you want wisdom, you want knowledge, it is hidden in Christ. That is the starting point being a law of logic.

[Young Atheist]

Yeah.

[Bradley Pierce]

Where discrete mathematics, laws of. I said a law of non contradiction. Where's that exist?

[Young Atheist]

Okay, like I'm trying, I'm really, really.

[Bradley Pierce]

No, I know. I'm trying to show you if you have a worldview that's all material matter and motion, nothing is spiritual, nothing transcendent. Right. Nothing immaterial.

[Young Atheist]

Okay.

[Bradley Pierce]

You can't appeal to immaterial laws in a universe that's matter in motion.

[Luke Conover]

He's given me.

[Bradley Pierce]

Well, where's the law of logic, dude?

[Young Atheist]

Like, okay, I'm trying to.

[Bradley Pierce]

It's very big, I know, but no.

[Young Atheist]

It'S not very big. You're basically saying that unless we 100% know that nothing's going to change in the future.

[Bradley Pierce]

That's one aspect. That's the uniformity in nature aspect. Right. It means you can't justify and appeal to them in the future. You can't justify an appeal to nature being uniform. But we're on the laws of logic question right now. I'm showing you this. Without Jesus, you can't prove anything. With your worldview, you can't justify everything you're doing. What I'm saying to you is this, and I mean this, with as much love as I can give to you, you are showing that you depend upon God right now for every moment of your life. In order to live your life, you got to secretly depend upon the God that you know is there, but yet you believe a worldview that totally rejects all of that. So the uniformity, that's one aspect.

[Young Atheist]

Okay, so uniformity that I know things will, which I don't, I don't fully know. I just think logically that. And then you're saying the laws of logic where.

[Jeff Coleman]

So good point here. If you watch what's previous to this, this part of the conversation, I tried to, to explain to him that he lives by faith. Right, Right. And I, he said no, he does. He said, no, I don't. I said, you know, you do live by faith. And go ahead.

[Zack]

Which in his case essentially means that he takes certain things for granted.

[Bradley Pierce]

Right.

[Zack]

He is assuming certain things are true about the world, but not proving them.

[Jeff Coleman]

Yeah.

[Zack]

He's just living that way without being self conscious of the fact that he's doing it.

[Jeff Coleman]

Yeah. And the point I was making there, if you guys didn't catch what was happening there, because there's more to the conversation that happened before this. So I understand if some of this is like, wait, it's kind of muddy. I don't understand what's going on here. When I was pressing him right here on the, the principle of induction, the uniformity in nature and everybody what that don't get thrown by that. All it means is that the future, future experience is going to be like past experience. So when we talk about laws we observe in the universe, we build bridges because we believe math. 2/2 equals 4 is actually a universal absolute law in this world. And so like we say, okay, two plus two is four, that will always be true. It's, it's, that's the case in this.

[Zack]

Universe, which unbelievers know these things as well, instinctively, even experientially.

[Jeff Coleman]

Yes.

[Zack]

Right. We can't complete or construct these things unless these things are the case. Unless these things hold together.

[Jeff Coleman]

Right.

[Zack]

So the necessary question is, well, how do you know that they will hold together in this way tomorrow?

[Jeff Coleman]

Yeah. And that's what I asked him here is, is. And this is where it gets interesting for him. And hopefully he was starting to see it when I said, you know the God that I'm talking about and I talked about the issue of uniformity. The future be like the past. Remember I had already said to him, you live by faith. And he was like, no, I don't. He just admitted there that he doesn't know that the future will be like the past. He doesn't have certainty about that. And so that's why I said to him, you live by faith, right? He hopes that he's trusting that it.

[Zack]

Will be the same tomorrow.

[Jeff Coleman]

Confidence, yes, confidence. He's with faith that the future will be like the past. And so he lives by faith. Now Christians live by faith too. But the, but the scriptures would, would give us the perspective of faith that is very different to the. Different than the faith of an atheist. An atheist faith and confidence in the future or the laws of logic or whatever is a blind, stupid faith. All right. I don't mean that in an offensive way. I mean that in the, the classical definition of stupid, like there can't be corrected. They can't be taught.

[Zack]

It's just an ethical indictment.

[Jeff Coleman]

It's an ethical indictment. It's a putting heels in the ground. It's like it's blind. I don't have any basis. I have no rationale. I'm just, I'm jumping off the cliff and just trusting. Please, Richard Dawkins, catch me kind of a thing. That's, that's the kind of blind, stupid faith we're talking about. Like, you tell me that the physical constants are physical constants and they're going to remain this way and all these. I can test things and observe things and I need to be able to see the evidence and all that different stuff. But do I know the future is going to be like the past? Now? I got to be honest, I don't know that I have no certainty. Blind, stupid faith. Christians are not supposed to have that kind of faith commitment. The faith commitment that a Christian have has is a faith in a trustworthy God, in a dependable God. It is not a blind stupid faith. It is a faith that actually requires of us to think, to be reasonable, to be challenged, to know that it is actually true, to know that it is true. Like, for example, let's take this one example and go right back to the clip here. When the early apostles and the leaders, the Christians early on in the Christian church were calling people to repentance and faith in Jesus, they were not saying, oh guys, just come along with us. This is a really great fun message. Like just, you know, we think Jesus is the Messiah. We think that you should follow him just like us to your death. They weren't saying that like, you know, live a life of poverty, shame, suffering and being beaten and possibly killed. But you know, why? Well, because I had a really cool experience with Jesus. That is not how they preach the Christian message. As a matter of fact, when you see the Apostle Paul at all these points in the ministry where he's calling people to repentance and faith, or even in his explanation of the gospel in Romans. What does he say? He keeps going back. To what? That this message of Jesus is not a novelty, it is not unexpected. It is based upon the revelation of God. This is the fulfillment of prophecy. You should follow Jesus. Why? Because God has spoken. And, and he promised through his prophets and all that we got in the Old Testament that this is what was going to happen. And so Jesus is the Messiah. Paul, how do I know he's Messiah? Because you saw him on the road. No, Paul says, the scriptures testify to everything I'm telling you about Jesus. And so Paul, Peter, James, John, none of them would have called anybody to believe in Jesus simply on their say. So they said, because God foretold this. God promised this. If you want this proved, check out the scriptures. This is the prophecy. This is the prophecy. This is the prophecy. And so no blind, stupid faith allowed in the Christian faith and message. None.

[Young Atheist]

Come from. I don't have like a good answer for that.

[Bradley Pierce]

But you depend upon it, don't you?

[Young Atheist]

I feel like you're just saying, and God made it.

[Bradley Pierce]

No, no, it's not that God. It's not the sages saying God made it. Like, this is matter. Okay, I can touch this. You and I made of matter. Okay, we get this, we can test this, observe this, all the rest. It's a material universe. If all that we have is a materialist universe.

[Jeff Coleman]

So how is this dripping on us?

[Bradley Pierce]

Here, Stand right here. If all we have is a materialist universe, material universe, then how do we appeal to immaterial entities like laws of logic or laws of math? Where are those at? Somebody could say, watch. Somebody could say to it, they could.

[Young Atheist]

Say, well, wait, why do you need God to prove that? I can use math for things.

[Bradley Pierce]

To kind of, if I have a Christian worldview, okay, God has spoken. He told us about himself, his governance of the world, what he's like. The Christian worldview can actually justify laws of logic because it reflects the very thinking of God. As an example, God cannot lie. God cannot engage in logical contradiction. That's part of the biblical worldview. And so we base our belief that laws of logic are real, that they're sustainable, that they apply to me here and to somebody in Iceland.

[Young Atheist]

I feel like he does break kind of the law.

[Jeff Coleman]

So the Christian worldview provides the basis for the laws of logic in terms of, we have a worldview that gives us a testimony about reality that is vastly different than the atheist perspective. So, for example, the atheist perspective of the world is that this is matter, matter in motion. Nothing transcendent, nothing spiritual, nothing immaterial. That's their position. Okay? The Christian worldview, of course, has a basis to believe that that reality consists more of more than simply matter. There are immaterial aspects to our being. There is a spiritual aspect to a human being as well as a physical aspect. Scripture says that God is spirit. We recognize that there is this realm in creation or above creation, I should say, possibly say that is also a spiritual realm. Like I said, when we say that God is spirit, that's what Jesus says. That's testimony to the fact that there is something other than physical, other than material. So the Christian has a basis to say, no, I can absolutely justify the existence of abstract, universal entities that are real and a part of the created order, like the laws of logic, the laws of math. These are universal and unchanging things that are part of the created order. The atheist says, no, no, there's nothing immaterial. There's nothing spiritual. There's nothing transcendent.

[Zack]

All there is is matter and nothing universal.

[Jeff Coleman]

Right, right.

[Zack]

That is true here and true across the world.

[Jeff Coleman]

Right.

[Zack]

And true at different times.

[Jeff Coleman]

Yeah. Because let's say this is. Let's say I'm the guy who's like the source of laws of logic. I write the textbook, right? So I go, here's the rules for the laws of logic. They came out of this bag of protoplasm from this brain firing, okay? And this is what my biochemical responses have come up with. Here are the laws of logic, okay? Question in an atheistic perspective, is that a law that is binding? Is it a part of the created order? Is it actually real? Or is it is the product of a human mind?

[Zack]

Why do I not have the right to contradict such a.

[Jeff Coleman]

Let's say that I wrote the first textbook, he comes along and writes the second textbook, but his textbook says, actually it's virtuous to contradict yourself in this order. And he writes a textbook that says, no, the laws of logic actually work like this. Go ahead and contradict yourself. Right? That's the most logical thing to do, is to contradict yourself. Who's right? If it's just a product of human minds and we're just sort of like coming together, making this up.

[Luke Conover]

Just chemical reactions.

[Bradley Pierce]

Just chemical reactions.

[Jeff Coleman]

Who's right? And how is that universal? Because what's happening in my mind is not the same thing that's happening in his mind because we don't share the same brain he's got biochemical responses, I've got biochemical responses. There's no universal truth there. There's not something absolute and binding and law like and unchanging. That's just the product of my human mind. And so what if you have 50,000 guys that are products of evolutionary processes that didn't have my mind writing textbooks about laws of logic? See what I'm saying? If it's a material universe, then the laws of logic aren't. They're not immaterial, abstract, universal laws. There's no law like nature to it. Right. So one thing I say in the video, and I'll do this here real fast for the materialist. Let's. And by the way, it's so. It seems so. When I was teaching apologetics 15 years ago, I would sometimes, if I spoke at a university, I would. I would bring up the fact that the laws of math, you know, is a big problem for atheism. And I, you know, bring up the issue of like, two plus two equals four isn't necessarily true in the atheistic worldview. And they. People would balk at that. Like, what? That's stupid. Come on. Two plus two is four. It's universal. It's unchaining. It's like. Like, thank you. But then it was weird. Like, I don't even change. I don't know how it came up, but it was during COVID It was like, for some reason, it came from, like, the Marxists and all this stuff. I. There's this whole thing for like a period of a month where people were coming out saying, like, two plus two equals four is like white supremacy and colonial colonialism. And they were like, two plus two is not necessarily four. That's white supremacy. Maybe two plus two is five. I'm like, yeah, dummy, try building a bridge like that.

[Zack]

That is the end result of unbelief. Yeah, in a nutshell.

[Jeff Coleman]

So when people used to laugh at me saying nobody would deny the two plus two equals four, it's like, well, they just started doing it, like, out loud. But if you're a materialist and you believe in the laws of math, it isn't wrong to ask this question. Two plus two equals four. All right, so two plus two equals four. I said this to him as a materialist, as an atheist. Nothing transcendent. There's nothing spiritual. There's nothing immaterial. All you have is the material universe. That's all you got in atheism. Matter in motion, time and chance acting on matter. That's it. Okay. So here's a law we all hold to. And this guy's bright. I know he was taking math. I think he was actually in, like a physics program or something. I forget. So I'm sure he does a lot of it. He's probably way better at math than I am.

[Zack]

He's probably doing more than just two plus two.

[Jeff Coleman]

Way better at math than me. Math is. Was. Was never my subject. I had a bad math teacher in eighth grade that, like, chastised me in front of the class for asking a question that everybody wanted me to ask. And I remember she, like, yelled at me for asking the question that everybody else was like, ask her. And she turned around and screamed at me. I just put my pencil down. I was like, I'm done.

[Bradley Pierce]

I was like, I'm done with math for good.

[Jeff Coleman]

So I've got about an eighth grade math education. So that's why we're using two plus two equals four. This is as high as I go, guys, no, that's not really true. Don't be writing blogs about that.

[Luke Conover]

Someone's gonna cut that.

[Jeff Coleman]

Yeah, two plus two equals four. So you ask the materialist, is that true? And they say, for sure. So is that the law of math there? Two plus two is four. Yes, that's the law of math. So this is a law. That's a law. Okay, so then you go, all right, two plus two is four. You said, that's the law of math. Have I destroyed the law of two plus two equals four? To which the atheist goes, no, he didn't destroy anything. That was just a representation.

[Zack]

Yeah, it's immaterial, conceptual.

[Jeff Coleman]

It's a representation of what? An actual law in the universe that, by the way, can't be destroyed. You can't. You can't. You can't write it up and then just go, and now I've taken it out of existence. It's not just the product of my human mind. It's not something I can just take away and destroy. It's law like it's inherent in nature. It's fixed, it's there, and it's immaterial. You can't touch it. You never tasted two ever. Right? You've never smelled the number two. You never. You can't weigh the number two. It is conceptual in nature. It is abstract. But it is also universal, true and unchanging. And you don't get that in a materialist universe. Atheism can't produce that. But there are atheist mathematicians that are far superior than many Christians, and even they're Thinking about arithmetics like they're better than Christians. It's not to say that atheists can't do math. It's that they cannot justify their appeal and usage of math.

[Zack]

Yeah. Even agnostics, right? I don't know. But they sure do like to appeal to laws of certainty.

[Jeff Coleman]

That's right.

[Zack]

Which is ironic.

[Jeff Coleman]

Yeah, Right.

[Zack]

So the worldview is. I don't know, but I'm going to appeal to this certain foundation in order to get this off the ground.

[Jeff Coleman]

Yeah, I mean, I mean, talking to an agnostic for more than 30 seconds, you realize they don't really believe their agnosticism, a gnosis without knowledge agnostic. And then they're going to, 30 seconds later, start making all kinds of knowledge claims like, I know this is true. I know that's not true. You ought to do this, you ought not to do that. It's like, I thought you did know. Yeah, you sure do know a lot for someone that doesn't know even their demand for proof.

[Zack]

Like the demand for proof in and of itself is proof of the Christian God.

[Jeff Coleman]

Right.

[Zack]

Because again, you're assuming all of those things, that there are first principles, that there are rules. In order to do that, you have to be certain of these things outside of just, oh, well, I'm appealing to things like reason, like human reason. Okay, well, who says? And how do you know? How do you know that that's something that you can rely on? What's the foundation of that?

[Young Atheist]

Like logic, when the sense of he can be in multiple places at once.

[Bradley Pierce]

He's on the present.

[Young Atheist]

Right. So like, he can be all, like he has all these features of him that are very immaterial and very, very good.

[Bradley Pierce]

That's it. You nailed it. You nailed it. The Christian worldview has justification for the immaterial. If you give Jesus up, you don't have justification for immaterial. All you have is matter. You see, Christian worldview has a basis for the immaterial.

[Young Atheist]

You need something immaterial to have immaterial ideas such as logic, so you could prove material things.

[Bradley Pierce]

You would need a basis to be able to appeal to the immaterial.

[Young Atheist]

Okay, so I agree with you there that you would need some immaterial thing to kind of build your logic from to where you could have things like proofs and experiments. But I think I'm just, I just really can't buy the, that the immaterial has.

[Jeff Coleman]

So that was good, that moment right there. I'm sure most of you caught it. I agree. He granted it. Like, okay, my Materialism can't give me a basis to have immaterial entities like the laws of logic or the laws of math. So he said there, like, I agree it. I have to have some basis to have the immaterial. And I don't. There it is. That's the point, is just trying to show him the world that he is living in and the life that he is living is in complete collision with what he says about the world and his life. My goal, and I think it's somewhere near the end of this. I. Maybe it's. It's coming up soon. Hopefully it's in this portion here. I do say to him, you're going to walk away from here and you're going to live a life that is vastly different from everything you're telling me. You actually believe you're. If some. I think I brought up an example, like if you saw somebody in a car crash, you're going to run up to the car to care for the person because you're a really sweet guy. I'm sure you're going to like, do everything you can to care for that person's needs. He's like, absolutely. It's like, well, that would deny what you say about the nature of human beings, right? I mean, we're just random results of evolutionary processes. What obligation do we have to care for another? So, yeah, there you go.

[Young Atheist]

The God of the Christians, specifically, and I don't really see how in the Christian Bible it implies that just because logic exists, all these miracles happened, all these things happen, and the Christian God is.

[Bradley Pierce]

No, we're just doing this kind of. We're doing this kind of piecemeal. I'm just touching kind of each point at a time.

[Young Atheist]

So basically just God is real because of.

[Bradley Pierce]

No, no, we're saying. Saying because God is. We can have a justification for immaterial laws like laws of logic. We can have a justification for the uniformity in nature. We can have a justification for absolute moral obligations and ethical obligations to each other.

[Young Atheist]

So what was your immaterial. Like, how could logic come from God? Could you explain that to me?

[Bradley Pierce]

Yeah, so no, it's okay. So because we have the revelation of God, God's walked among us, he's spoken to us. We have a meaningful worldview and justification to believe in immaterial entities like laws of logic because we have a basis for the immaterial and the material. We have a basis for laws of all kinds. And so again, in order to demonstrate the laws of logic, you have to have a worldview that comports with the laws of logic. So one thing people have tried, like.

[Jeff Coleman]

Atheists have said, dang, this is the difficult one. Atheists have admitted.

[Young Atheist]

I, I'm still not proven on your, like, your first, like, axiom, if you would be like, you're saying, like, okay, logic is an immaterial idea that we've conjectured to kind of make sense of the world.

[Bradley Pierce]

No, I'm saying it's, it's, it's, it's, it's bigger. It's bigger. It's, it's more profound than that.

[Young Atheist]

You're saying since it's immaterial, it must come from something that's absolute, can't lie, and is immaterial from this to be true.

[Bradley Pierce]

That's an aspect of the conversation. What I'm saying is it's not just something that we've thought of with our human minds, right? So like, if somebody said, well, if somebody. Well, here's because we appeal to it all the time and build bridges because of it. So if somebody said the laws of logic, you know, we just sort of come up with these laws in our minds, that means that somebody could just create another version of logic that says, go ahead and contradict yourself. It's okay to contradict yourself. That's the law of logic. If it's just a part of human minds and our brain gas, then it's just invented and it's not law. Like, if it's just a part of the human brain inventing things. Logic is something human beings, it's something that human beings recognize as embedded in nature or reflects the very thinking of God.

[Young Atheist]

I can agree that we find it.

[Bradley Pierce]

Embedded in nature and it's not something that we just invented in our own minds.

[Jeff Coleman]

So there you go, very important. Start to see the connections being made. I can agree that it's embedded in nature. The laws of logic. It's embedded in nature. You can't get that in atheism. Time and chance acting on matter does not embed immaterial, universal, unchanging truths into nature.

[Zack]

What's amazing how impersuasive it is, how did they get there? Yeah, how did they get embedded right into nature?

[Jeff Coleman]

These immaterial laws, laws of these immaterial laws of thought. Universal truths, unchanging truths are embedded in the material universe. Interesting. How do you get that in atheism when all you have is time and chance acting on matter? You have an unguided, without purpose universe and human beings are just one random result aspect of this entire incredible thing that we live in. And Remember that in atheism, human beings are no different than rocks. Now that's vitally important to get that. They are not different in terms of being special or having any particular dignity above. We're just. I mean, you know, we say it all the time because it needs to be emphasized. If we started as bacteria and through a long chain of unguided processes went into, like, fish and then other steps, and then ultimately to African apes, to us. Well, rocks were here along the same line and. And they're just products of this universe that doesn't care about us as well. And so there's no more value, innate value in, In a human being than a rock there. It's just not there.

[Bradley Pierce]

Otherwise you and I could create our own versions of laws of logic.

[Young Atheist]

Well, no, because even things like animals show logic at times.

[Jeff Coleman]

Very good.

[Bradley Pierce]

I feel like they reflect. They reflect the very thinking of the Creator.

[Young Atheist]

It's not.

[Bradley Pierce]

It's not yet chaotic, the people of God.

[Young Atheist]

Right?

[Bradley Pierce]

Well, it just. It just reflects that. Animals show, of course, a special creative aspect to them, that they are even themselves dependent upon a created order that acts a certain way. My point is, and this is the. Just for you to think about, you check your phone. I don't know if you have to go. Okay? So, no, I don't want to get you in trouble or make you lose a class or something, but the proof of the Christian God is, apart from him, you can't prove anything. Proof requires logical consistency, laws of logic. It requires uniformity in nature, and it requires that. An ethical obligation to tell the truth. If you believe that you live in a universe that came from nothing, your ancestors were fish, and that there are no ultimates above any of us and there's nothing is guided. You have to depend upon Jesus every day of your life to want proof.

[Young Atheist]

I don't see either of those. That we came from fish and that the universe came from nothing.

[Bradley Pierce]

Do you believe that?

[Young Atheist]

I don't see those as absolutes.

[Jeff Coleman]

Right.

[Young Atheist]

Like, I just think that, like, if I use kind of the, like laws of. That I understand and know what has the highest probability of occurring. And then I kind of just am like, okay, maybe I'll believe something like this. And then until a theory of quantum gravity and a theory of like you.

[Bradley Pierce]

You want to believe things that are only true.

[Young Atheist]

Yeah, I. I at least want to attempt.

[Bradley Pierce]

Welcome to the Christian worldview.

[Jeff Coleman]

Okay, what did Jesus say?

[Bradley Pierce]

Jesus said. Jesus said his claim. No, no, here I'm saying that in order. In order for you to have truth, you have to have Jesus. Jesus says, I am the way, the truth, and the life. And so that's the claim of Jesus, that he is the truth.

[Young Atheist]

Lots of people have said, I'm the truth.

[Jeff Coleman]

I'm right.

[Bradley Pierce]

Are you talking. Exactly.

[Jeff Coleman]

Very, very good.

[Bradley Pierce]

You nailed. Actually, that's better than I said to you earlier. When you talk about drinking the Kool Aid and the guy who leads a bunch of people to their death in Jonestown, or you talk about David Koresh, you're talking about two men that did claim to be.

[Jeff Coleman]

Be God.

[Bradley Pierce]

Right. So did Jesus. So Jesus is either a fraud and a con man like them, or he is the Lord of glory and he is the truth. That's all I'm asking you to do, is to think about Jesus in that way.

[Jeff Coleman]

Okay.

[Young Atheist]

I think that the things he said were helpful and can help people and are.

[Bradley Pierce]

How about the fact that he said that he was God and that we would be condemned and go to hell if we didn't trust in him?

[Young Atheist]

Honestly think that maybe he grew up like, you know, with his rabbi studies in the temple, that that's what they taught him.

[Jeff Coleman]

So. Right. This is. That.

[Zack]

That was interesting.

[Jeff Coleman]

Yeah.

[Zack]

You know, if. If the rabbis were teaching young Jewish men to commit blasphemy, then they would be running counterproductive to their calling.

[Bradley Pierce]

Well, let's watch real fast. So we'll play that part and we'll come watch along that although the rabbis were angry that he called himself God.

[Jeff Coleman]

They tried to stone him for calling himself God.

[Young Atheist]

I just stuff.

[Jeff Coleman]

Yeah. Jesus didn't get that from rabbis. For chisel. Right.

[Bradley Pierce]

For.

[Jeff Coleman]

For sure. And no cap.

[Bradley Pierce]

Yeah, for real.

[Jeff Coleman]

He did not. Matter of fact, if you read in the instances where Jesus does take the divine name upon himself, like in John chapter 8. In John chapter 10, John 8, he says, Before Abraham was. Echo me, I am he takes a divine name of God, pick up stones to kill him. And in John 10, same thing happens. I and the Father are one. Pick up stones to kill him again, he says, many good works have I shown you from the Father. For which of these do you stone me? They said, for your good works, we stone you not, but for blasphemy. And that you, being a man, make yourself God. They knew what he was saying and they didn't like it. So. So this young man's not understanding that part of the monotheism of the Jews is you don't get to call yourself God.

[Young Atheist]

Yeah.

[Zack]

That was what sent Christ to the cross.

[Jeff Coleman]

Exactly. I mean, the blasphemy. Remember, we've heard the blasphemy. What blasphemy? That he called himself the Son of man on the clouds of heaven, which from Daniel 7 was the divine being that's worshiped. And so they knew what Jesus was saying, and they were like, we've heard his blasphemy. He's claiming to be the Son of Man. Clearly that's the divine being. And so. So, yeah. And it's interesting because this, hopefully I pray by the grace of God, is an example of. At no point in this conversation is there a switching from a position of neutrality towards, okay, let me find my way back to Jesus now. What I've impressed upon him the entire time that he's living in God's world. He's dependent upon the God that he knows the entire time. His problem is sin. And then I bring him to Jesus that you can't have truth without the one who says, I am the way, the truth, and the life. It's all about Jesus. And then he calls you to repentance and faith, and that if you don't believe in him, you'll be condemned forever. And he says, no, no, like, I'm good with Jesus and the good things that he taught. Wait, stop, pause. Hold up. Wait a minute. Good things that Jesus taught? Where'd you get this concept of good things, right? Don't forget what your origins are. Don't forget the world that you say you're living in. It's not. There's no good things Jesus taught. It's just one guy, Jesus, who was also the descendant of bacteria, who said some things. There's no value higher or lower in his statements. Jesus was just saying things. And he's the product of evolutionary processes, too. That's where you put him. So you can't say, well, I really love Jesus and the good things that he taught without also being confronted with what he also taught. And that is that he's God in human flesh. He came to save sinners. And if you don't repent and believe in a hurry, you're going to hell. And so, yeah, and he also, he.

[Zack]

Has to set himself up as the arbitrator of what is good and bad in order to do so. And so I like the good things that he taught. In other words, I'm the judge, right? And I get to call into question the acceptable things that I will receive and the unacceptable things that I find deplorable. And once again, we're back to the problem of having no standard outside of yourself, right?

[Luke Conover]

Purely subjective.

[Jeff Coleman]

Well, also, if you can, you could say. You can see it in the atheists. Many atheists will say exactly the same things. Like, I like certain aspects of the teaching of Jesus, like his love for the. His. His love for the. The. The. Those who are, you know, poor, the. The rebels, the people who are, you know, cast out by society. I love Jesus saying the Christmas songs. You love your neighbors, you love yourself.

[Zack]

So that' just preference, you know, or.

[Jeff Coleman]

Or greater love has no man than this. A man lay down his life for his friends. I love that. That's great stuff. And then you go, okay, what about. What else would he said? He also said that, like, you're a sinner and you stand condemned and that, that you're going to go to hell without him for life. Nah, that's bad. So it's like you go, this is good. Love your neighbor as you love yourself. But this over here where he said that he's God and you're going to stand condemned if you don't believe in the Son. You go, that's not good. Okay, on what basis are you calling one good and one not good? Right. Where's this? The source is you. You're the deciding factor. Like you. And it isn't interesting. Like, I love Jesus, except the part where he said that, like, he's the source of all life and he's the fountain of life and that you're going to die and go to hell without Him. It's like, well, I don't want that. Why? Because they're at war with him. That's it. Like, why do I like the good things Jesus talked about? Because that really pulls on the image of God, man. No, that's how we're supposed to be. I know that. I like that. I want to make sure people do that to me and then go, okay, what about this over here? And they go, well, that' the part of Jesus I'm trying to avoid. He's the judge. I know he is, and I don't want to stand before him and I don't want to yield to Him. I don't want to come to him as Lord. I don't want to die and rise again with Him. I don't want any of that. And so I turn away from that. That's not good. In the message of Jesus, which is precisely where the young man is at. So pray for him, society.

[Young Atheist]

I feel like it's high probability that he was a very, like, wise and emotionally kind man, but maybe a little bit mistaken about what he was here to do versus they used to be Only a God.

[Jeff Coleman]

Mistaken.

[Bradley Pierce]

It'd be bad to be mistaken.

[Young Atheist]

I feel like it.

[Bradley Pierce]

Yeah, like, well, Jesus according.

[Jeff Coleman]

Think about this.

[Bradley Pierce]

Jesus, according to you, was a descendant of fish. It's not wrong for a descendant of fish to be mistaken about anything. Who cares?

[Young Atheist]

Okay, but according to me, you are too.

[Jeff Coleman]

So what?

[Bradley Pierce]

Our ancestors are bacteria.

[Young Atheist]

Wait, so what?

[Bradley Pierce]

I'm pressing. I'm pressing on your atheism.

[Jeff Coleman]

Okay.

[Bradley Pierce]

If our ancestors were bacteria, okay. Then someone being mistaken isn't a problem. There's no ultimate.

[Young Atheist]

Yeah, there's no ultimate. It's okay for him to be mistaken. I just think it's a little not fair for him to lead people.

[Bradley Pierce]

Justice matters.

[Young Atheist]

Yeah. Because there's people that have, like, ended.

[Jeff Coleman]

Do you get it? You seeing it?

[Zack]

It just kind of gets to the point where it slowly, like as you're chipping away, as you're whittling down, like the foundation starts to crumble.

[Luke Conover]

Sure.

[Zack]

And it just ends in nihilism, essentially.

[Jeff Coleman]

Yeah.

[Zack]

It doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. It doesn't matter. You know what? Yeah. We can't adopt contradictory positions because coherence doesn't matter. Doesn't have to make sense. It just kind of descends, like it unravels slowly. And then you start to see the cracks, like, in the light, you know?

[Jeff Coleman]

Yeah, just catch that. Like, you know, I realize that all of it doesn't really matter, but just seems unfair.

[Bradley Pierce]

It's like you don't get to say.

[Zack]

I just don't like it.

[Jeff Coleman]

It doesn't matter. And it's unfair. Unfair. Saying something is unfair is saying that there's a standard of justice that we have to hold to, there's a standard of justice. And you go, where are you getting that from? Because, you know the God that I'm talking about, you know that he's a standard of justice. You know that justice matters. But then you have to go, as an atheist, nah, it doesn't really matter anyways. But it's really unfair. I don't like the injustice. It's like, do you see it?

[Zack]

Schizophrenic?

[Jeff Coleman]

Do you see it? Do you see the image of God pouring out? Right. And how do you get there? I want to say at least one of the ways we can get there is stop pretending neutrality. He's not neutral and you're not supposed to be either. And so if you keep pressing and keep pressing and keep pressing, standing on the word of God, then the image of God pours out of the guy. And ultimately it's like Van Til says, Let the unbeliever talk and let him keep talking, and eventually he'll hang himself.

[Zack]

It's amazing because, I mean, this approach, what it does is you're essentially closing the distance between God and him.

[Jeff Coleman]

Yes.

[Zack]

You are pressing the claims of Christ upon him again and again. And what room is there for anything else other than absolute subjection and submission? Yeah, like, you have to surrender. That's the point.

[Jeff Coleman]

Yeah, get him. I'm so glad you said that, Zack. Get him to the place where he has to surrender or deny. And that's the point of wrapping your apologetic up with your evangelism, is you want to get him to unconditional surrender. And he has to know the difference. Like, if you. I think if we're doing this right and faithfully. And again, I'm not the standard, there's better men than me. But if we. If we do this right, you get into the place where he understands it's unconditional surrender or total resistance. Right. And he. And hopefully he walked. He. Hopefully he walked away knowing that. Right. The message of Jesus is like this. You surrender to Jesus and trust in him. Come to him as Lord and Savior, believe in him for eternal life, or walk away in your rebellion. That's it. Like, get him to that place. And here's the thing, people, like, might get frustrated. It's like, oh, the dude didn't convert there on the spot. It's like, that's the spirit of God that does that. He does that. Spirit of God. He works it out in his life. But I don't want to send him home with, like, some kind of false confidence or that he has a right to stand in judgment of God and the Lord Jesus. I want to send him away with him realizing, you know what, as he's walking away in every footstep going, I am kind of dependent upon something above my worldview right now. And yeah, I am acting contrary to everything I say I believe. And like, this is. This is true. I'm not really living consistently with what I say is true about the world. Maybe there is something to this Jesus and, like, life in him versus my life right now.

[Zack]

Yeah, you don't get that from. Try Jesus and test the probability of whether these things may be true and all that.

[Jeff Coleman]

Yeah, let's. Let's start to wrap up here. Lives early.

[Bradley Pierce]

Bacteria ought to hold to justice.

[Young Atheist]

No, I just think that I shouldn't. I don't want to hurt anything.

[Bradley Pierce]

Why is there value?

[Young Atheist]

Maybe I think a different perspective.

[Bradley Pierce]

Does this anger you?

[Young Atheist]

I mean, maybe you killed Some.

[Bradley Pierce]

But does it, does it bother you that I do that to this matter? So what if one evolved piece of matter, state matter, causes the bloodshed of another? What meaning is there in that?

[Young Atheist]

I guess in the grand scheme of things, nothing.

[Jeff Coleman]

There you go. There's your atheism and boom, boom. No, I'm not, I'm not saying anything.

[Zack]

Really believe that.

[Jeff Coleman]

No, he. No, he doesn't really believe that. He won't live that way. Yeah, I'm not saying that to harm this young man. I had such a good time talking with him. I love this young guy. He is, he is great. If you get to see this. I, I considered it an honor to speak with you. You are such a gracious and sweet and kind young man and, and very intelligent. But the boom part is. There you go, there's the revelation. It doesn't matter. But as Zach said, and as Luke said, he's not gonna live that way. He won't live that way. He walks away from this conversation not living like it doesn't really matter. He knows that it does.

[Zack]

And how many people does that last line Just consider that, like, in the grand scheme, it's nothing. Well, not only is it nothing in the grand scheme, it's nothing now, right? How unpersuasive is atheism to anyone else watching or listening to that? Do you believe that? Do you believe that things don't matter, that there's no real purpose to anything? Well, show me. Show me. By the way that you live.

[Jeff Coleman]

You can't, you won't live that way.

[Zack]

You can't.

[Jeff Coleman]

You'll. You'll decry the same things that Christians decry. When you watch the news and you see some horrible story of some human being that violated another one or there's some injustice somewhere, you're going to decry it, you're going to yell at it, you're going to raise your voice, your face is going to get read about it, you're going to get in tears over it, because you're made in the image of God. It's inescapable. You can't escape what God made you to be. You can't. You live in God's world. There's no escaping him. And so though you can say it doesn't matter, you won't live that way. And it's important for us to continue to press on that and call into repentance. So conversation is a little bit longer here. I'm not going to play through all of it, but we do get into a few more things and I get an opportunity to call into repentance and faith in Jesus. So that hopefully was a blessing for everybody. Everybody, listen, we've got some great, great stuff. Some great things that you guys can, can get that will support. That will bless your life and support the ministry of Apologia Church and Apologia Studios. Right now you can't see it because it's, it's here. We.

[Bradley Pierce]

Maybe you can kind of see through the shirt right there.

[Jeff Coleman]

It's black.

[Zack]

See that infinity sign?

[Jeff Coleman]

You can see it. So I'm wearing my ion layer patch. Go look into NAD benefits. NAD benefits. It will. It is exhausting to read through all the amazing benefits of nad. It's nicknamed the Fountain of Youth. People have been doing it for a long time through IV treatments. It is very expensive to do it through IV treatments. Like you can go 750 or a thousand dollars for a single IV treatment. It is also incredibly painful to endure an NAD drip for a number of reasons. But when you finish it, you can, like, you can start flying, you can jump through walls kind of a thing. Go research the benefits, NAD benefits. But Ion layer got a way to do it through a medical patch where you get a high dose of NAD through your skin over, I think, 14 hours a day. You get a kit with six different treatments and at a. At a fraction really of the cost. You would, you would get it if you did IV treatments with the same amount of nad. So it gets in your system with no pain. No pain. And ionlayer.com go to ionlayer.com, type in apologia and all caps in the coupon code. You're going to get a discount, a good one. And you're also going to allow them to bless us as a ministry to do all the things that we do. That's ionlayer.com I'm doing NAD this thing, regardless of talking about it on the show. I was doing it before we did it on the show. It's just blessed my life. It is phenomenal. And they also have a new patch. It's glutathione, which is the master antioxidant in your body. You need this. You need a lot of it. And glutathione is also one of those things that you start getting less and less of as you get older. Oral stuff of glutathione. You don't get much of it is what the research demonstrates. And so they found a way to do it not through IV, but through this medical patch. And you can boost the levels of the master antioxidant in your system. It's going to help with so many different processes in your body. So if you're interested in the whole biohacking thing and health and wellness and longevity, check out iron layer.com apologia and all caps and the coupon code. And I love, I love Iron Layer. It's a great, great company. Next, don't forget to go to apologia Studios website, apologies studios.com go to the store. You're going to get all kinds of swag, T shirts, coffee stuff. You're going to be able to get the tracks. Come get some tracks and, and it's all [e-mail] and I'll let you say the rest.

[Luke Conover]

I was just gonna say that first. I've never seen Bradley Pierce in a T shirt before.

[Zack]

Did you notice that he's always so formal?

[Luke Conover]

Yeah, I've only ever seen him in like a button up, like, nice shirt.

[Jeff Coleman]

He's always dressed like a tattoo in.

[Luke Conover]

The background if you don't know what we're talking about. So that kind of threw me off. I'm like, why Brad look weird? Oh, he's wearing a T shirt. Speaking of Brad, you can go to heritagedefense.org see what I did there. And oh, your segues.

[Jeff Coleman]

You really tied the room together.

[Luke Conover]

If you're homeschool your children, please go.

[Jeff Coleman]

To heritagedefense.org if you're homeschool woodpecking, yes.

[Luke Conover]

You must have it. You can go put apology in the coupon. Put it was going so good.

[Zack]

I homeschool me.

[Jeff Coleman]

Chilling. Put some polygia on it.

[Luke Conover]

Get five. No, I'm on the wrong thing. You can get your first month free. You guys got me all in a tizzy here. But seriously, do it. That's all I got to say about that. And then of course, amtec Blades. Love Bill. I just talked to him yesterday. Bill rapier, former dev group operator, solid brother, amazing friend and make some amazing blades. And you got those battle axes. You got little blades you can carry on you. And you can put apology in the Coupon code. Get 5% off your order and he will donate 5% to match to end abortion now to help save babies. And then of course, lastly, I want to mention our new sponsor, Page 50. They're gonna be at Reform Con. Stuart will be there. Super good dude. He's a good friend of our friend Brian Gunter, which by the way, I'll mention that in a second. Page 50 is a full service marketing and media production company that wants to help Christians recapture the economic and civil spheres operating for the last 10 years, page 50 has helped numerous businesses build their books and brands and they want to help you build yours. Websites, SEO, video production, brand building and a lot more. Page 50 does it all. No woke marketing services. So go check out page50.com Brian Gunter. He's going to be with me in Idaho on April 1st. Actually, April Fool's Day, we'll be in Idaho. We got a pastor's meeting there for our bill in Idaho in Boise. So looking forward to seeing some of her.

[Jeff Coleman]

So also if you want to go, where do they go? What do they go to if they want to go to Boise to meet with you?

[Luke Conover]

And so we have. Yeah, there's a link up on an abortionnow.com for the the event with all the information there.

[Jeff Coleman]

That will be 7:00 o' clock, April 1st in Boise. 7:00pm Yep.

[Luke Conover]

Correct.

[Jeff Coleman]

Okay.

[Luke Conover]

Yep.

[Jeff Coleman]

Right on. So if you're in Idaho, get out there, guys. There's a bill of equal protection there. Get hooked up with the guys. And the pastors and churches across Idaho.

[Luke Conover]

I think they just, I think was it 15 sponsors we just announced?

[Jeff Coleman]

Fantastic. That's great.

[Luke Conover]

Or 13, I believe. Something like that.

[Zack]

Something like that.

[Jeff Coleman]

Yeah.

[Luke Conover]

It's. Yeah.

[Jeff Coleman]

So right on. That's good to know. Good. Excellent. Okay, that's everything. All right, everyone. So if you're all access, we're going to pop over real quick to apologiastudios.com, do an apologia after show, continue the conversation over there. So if you're not all access, get all access now. Be a part of this ministry with us, help to do all this ministry, work with us, get the gospel around the world. ApologiaStudios.com Sign up for all access. The app is coming soon. And if you are all access, you can join us over right now at the after show. And if you are able to please meet me in Georgia next week, March 26th at the Georgia State Capitol in Atlanta, Georgia. We have our hearing there. I'll be testifying. Please pray for me, pray for us as this is happening. And we'll catch you over there in Georgia. Also over at ApologiosStudios for the after show. That's Luke the Bear.

[Luke Conover]

Peace out, everyone.

[Jeff Coleman]

I'm the ninja. And that is Conover later director of communications for End Abortion now. We'll catch you guys next time.