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566. Is The God of Calvinism Morally Reprehensible? Debate Review
01:02:19
Join us for the newest episode of Apologia Radio in which we review the recent debate between Dr. James White and Jacob Hansen on "Is the God of Calvinism morally reprehensible?" Don't miss it!
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Jeff 'Ninja'
Non Rockabotus must stop. I don't want to rock the boat. I want to sink it.
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Luke 'The Bear'
Are you gonna bark all day, little
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Jeff 'Ninja'
doggy, or are you gonna bite? Delusional. Yeah, delusional is okay. In your worldview, I'm an animal. You don't chastise chickens for being delusional. You don't chastise pigs for being so. You calling me delusional using your worldview is perfectly okay. It doesn't really hurt.
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Jacob Hansen
She hung up on me.
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Jeff 'Ninja'
Desperate times call for faithful men and not for careful men. The careful men come later and write the biographies of the faithful men, lauding them for their courage.
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Guest or Co-host
Go into all the world and make disciples. Not go into the world and make buddies, not to make corrosives.
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Jeff 'Ninja'
Right.
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Guest or Co-host
Don't go in the world. Make homies.
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Jeff 'Ninja'
Right.
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Guest or Co-host
Disciples.
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Jeff 'Ninja'
I got a bit of a jiggle neck. That's a joke, Pastor.
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Jacob Hansen
When we have the real message of
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Jeff 'Ninja'
truth, we cannot let somebody say they're speaking truth when they're not. Take an amazing journey to a place that will blow your mind and move your mind so you will never be the same again. Thus says Yahweh, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of Hosts. I am the first and I am the last. Besides me, there is no God who is like me. Let him proclaim it. Let him declare it and set it before me. Since I appointed an ancient people, let them declare what is to Come and what will happen? Fear not, nor be afraid. For have I not told you from of old and declared it and you are my witnesses. Is there a God besides me? There is no rock. I know not. 44, 6 through 8. What's up everybody? Welcome back to another episode of Apologia Radio. This is the gospel heard around the world. I'm Jeff, they call me Ninja. That's Luke the Bear right there.
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Guest or Co-host
What up?
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Jeff 'Ninja'
You can get more at apologiastudios.com a p o l o g iastudios.com go there, get all the past episodes of Apologia Radio provoked shiologens cultish all that is there. Also when you go to Apologia Studios, do sign up for All Access. You partner with us in this ministry that is bringing the gospel to millions upon millions upon millions of people all around the globe. God is saving people out of the cult. False religions like Mormonism, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, all of that out of atheism. And God is saving babies. Tens of thousands of babies are alive because of your participation in this ministry and end abortion now. And so we're grateful for that. So go sign up for All Access. You get all kinds of additional content with All Access. You get the Academy, the full episodes of Collision, the after shows, the ask me anythings and some more stuff we're doing this year we are very excited about. So go sign up for All Access and if you haven't done so yet, don't forget everybody, I keep saying it, you should do it. Go to apologiastudios.com Sign up for Bonson U. It is completely free. You get a free account, top tier theological education from one of the greatest Christian philosophers and apologists in the entire history of the Christian Church, Dr. Greg Bonson. His entire teaching library is there, his seminary lectures. So you're literally getting seminary level education with those lectures. And so if you want to learn about Christian apologetics, history of the church, the Bible, even his sermons are there. He was a pastor as well and so his sermons are up there as well. There's like 2,000 pieces of of content and audio there again, courses from his college lectures and seminary, all that's there, guys. So Bonson you and a big thank you as always to all of our All Access partners in ministry. Because though Bonson U is for free for you to have, it's actually not free to do. And so All Access partners make all that possible for everybody. So thank you, thank you, thank you for doing this with us. All right. Guys, today, another short show. We have some stuff to do right after this for end abortion now. Very important stuff. And so we're going to do a quick show today. Almost wasn't even able to do it, but we're going to do some. And now many guys may have heard or seen that one of our pastors at Apologia Church, Dr. James White, he did a debate in it was in Ogden, right? Yeah, in Ogden, Utah, about a week ago against the Mormon apologist Jacob Hansen. And so the title of that debate was, is the God of Calvinism Morally Reprehensible. And so that content is up right now. If you go to Apologia, Utah, they filmed that and it's up there on the in its entirety right there on their channel, apology Utah on YouTube. And so please do listen to that. Great debate, great conversation. We're going to review, I think, a substantial amount of this debate because I think it'll be very helpful for the church and also for the the Latter Day Saints who are listening to us and want to engage these issues. And so we're going to probably spend a couple of weeks on this, actually, and because I think it'd be very helpful. And so today, though, because it's a shorter show today, we're going to start the discussion in Dr. White's cross examination because I think it's very, very revealing in terms of the main points that we're going to make over the next few times that we review this. And, and let me just sort of summarize. So about two years ago, Jacob Hansen did a response video to our Gospel for Mormons video. And in that in his response video to the Gospel for Mormons video, Jacob Hansen lied, misrepresented a Christian scholar who is now with the Lord, named Michael Heiser. And so in his review or rebuttal of the video itself, he specifically, and I would say at this point, deliberately, if he repeats it, lies about Michael Heiser and misrepresents him in terms of what his beliefs were, what he was trying to communicate. And so two years ago we did that episode. And the name of the episode, if you want to go see it after the show today, is Mormon Sleight of Hand and Abuse. Mormon sleight of hand and abuse. We take a good deal of time reviewing Jacob's comments, demonstrating that Jacob didn't understand Heiser, he's misrepresenting him, he's not being truthful. And and so that's what we did. Now, did Jacob Hansen take that down? Not sure. Haven't actually Checked to see if he did. Did he offer a formal apology to the public for misrepresenting somebody and telling the public things that were in fact provably not true? Not sure if he did it. I'm not sure if he just made excuses. I don't know. But he, without question, incontrovertibly misrepresented Michael Heiser and lied. And so that was Hanson. And by the way, this was us responding to Hanson. He did. And then last week we did an episode with another young Mormon apologist named Hayden, and Hayden did a video. And so we responded to that video. And in that video, he misrepresented as well. He clearly was out of his element, I said. And he didn't know what was being talked about. He misrepresented. He shot from the hip. He didn't know this. This field. He didn't understand what was being said. And so he also, this young Mormon apologist also went along the same line as. As Jacob, and that is that he made public comments, embarrassed himself publicly misrepresented. And it seems to be a pattern for these young Mormon apologists. Now, Jacob is a. Is a bright guy, very intelligent, and he's done a number of public discussions and debates with guys like, with Roman Catholics like Trent Horn. And the name escapes me at the moment, Joe Heschmeyer. And if you can watch those debates, you'll see a common thread in terms of when Jacob interacts with others. There is misrepresentation, misrepresentation of history, denial of facts. And so I want to sort of today, in the limited time we have today, and I'm trying to go very quickly here into the cross examination with Dr. James White, revealed even more of that. And so you'll hopefully get to everything here. So I'm just going to go ahead and just jump right into it again because of time today. And so this is the beginning of the cross examination between Dr. James White and Hansen. And again, we are going to review much, much more of this debate when we have time. But here we
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Luke 'The Bear'
could.
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Jacob Hansen
I have one just. Just to make sure I got my stuff ready so that. Let me just do this real quick. Okay, I am ready.
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Luke 'The Bear'
All right. Mr. Hansen, has your God eternally been God?
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Jacob Hansen
Yes.
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Luke 'The Bear'
And was he a God when he lived on another planet?
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Jacob Hansen
No. I don't think there's anything in my canon of scripture that says that very important.
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Jeff 'Ninja'
Okay. So we're going to get deeper and deeper as we go here. But you heard the first question. Has your God eternally been God? Jacob Hansen said yes, to which all the old school Mormons are going, okay, wait, wait, wait a second. All right. Because they have a particular belief about Heavenly Father Elohim, you know, who went through exaltation and obedience, exalted to becoming a God. And many Mormons, like our late great dear friend Craig Ray, man, you know, it'd be great if Craig was still alive.
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Guest or Co-host
I know.
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Jeff 'Ninja'
Just to have Craig sit with us. Yeah, have Craig sit with us and just be like, hey, Craig, would you talk to this guy for us? Craig Ray recently passed away. Very sad for, for Luke and I, we created a great friendship with Craig. Craig was one of the most ferocious and disciplined consistent Mormon apologists that I engaged with in, in the 90s and worked with all the other organizations, the Mormon apologetics organizations, all of that. And again, we became very good friends. Dear friends, you know, all that makes this sound. I know it doesn't it? In the 90s. Back in the, back in the 90s, the 90s. But some of these other Mormon apologists that did not behave in this way would, would definitely want to have a con. Conversation with Jacob and with Hayden for that matter. But you heard Jacob say, this is.
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Guest or Co-host
Well, this is why the Mormon Church will not allow men like this to officially represent them.
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Jeff 'Ninja'
Yeah, the church, because do they even represent Mormonism? Right. And here, look, I, I want to grant something at the outset, okay, at the start, all right. Because Mormonism is a false religion and a counterfeit Christian religion because it's not from God, because it has man at the center, because it is man made, it is going to have contradictions throughout. Right? So for example, yes, you're going to see early in Mormon history, when Joseph Smith publishes the Book of Mormon, he is surrounded by orthodox Christianity, whether that's Protestants, whether it's, you know, Roman Catholics who believe in the Trinity, they believe in the infallibility of the Scriptures, all that stuff. They believe in only one God. So monotheism is in the atmosphere around Joseph Smith. And so, yes, when Joseph Smith first publishes the Book of Mormon, you see statements of monotheism in the Book of Mormon without question. There's no doubt about that. There's contradictions. There's a confusion of persons that takes place, there's the contradictions of biblical passages. And where things take place, all of that is there. But you do see, early Mormonism teaches things like eternal God, unchanging God, those sorts of things. That's early on in the history of Mormonism, without question. But then. And there's no question about this either, and Mormon Scholars will even agree and admit to this. There is an evolution in Joseph Smith's theology. And so Joseph Smith goes from monotheism, statements about monotheism to clear statements of a plurality of gods. That's. There's no question about that. It is convoluted, it is muddy, it is contradictory. And so can you find statements of monotheism in the Book of Mormon? Yes. Can you see things like eternal God in the Book of Mormon? Yes. But then you have Joseph Smith and his own teaching. And these guys love, they just want to get away from the King Fallet discourse. Like, they just need to get away from the King fallout discourse. And they want to try to find some way to say, well, you know, these are Joseph Smith's opinion, this is Joseph Smith's opinion. It's not a part of the canon, those sorts of things. Which means that you don't know your prophets. You don't know them because Brigham Young said, who's a prophet of your church? And you claim your church is built upon prophets and apostles and all that stuff. The prophet of your church, Brigham Young, said that he had never yet given a sermon and sent it out to the children of men that they couldn't call Scripture. And he actually said regarding his sermons, the things he said in his sermons, that if his sermons were out and it was true and they. And they were corrected, in other words, making sure that's what he said. In other words, that was what the prophet said, that that was as good as what is couched in the Bible. And so your prophet taught in terms of what does it mean to be a prophet in the Mormon Church, that when he gave messages, when he spoke as a prophet, that it was as good as what is in Deuteronomy, Daniel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Genesis, Philippians, Acts, Romans, Revelation. So slip Brigham Young's teachings into the back of your Bible is what Brigham Young is saying. However, you see this transformation that takes place in Joseph Smith's theology from when he publishes the Book of Mormon in a monotheistic atmosphere to as time goes on, Joseph Smith's clearly teaching plural gods, many gods. Joseph Smith says in the King Follett Discourse. Journal of Discourse is Volume 6, Page 3, 1844. Fourteen years after the publication of the Book of Mormon. I will prove that the world is wrong by showing what God is. I'm going to inquire after God for I want you all to know him and to be familiar with him, and if I can bring you to a knowledge of him, all persecutions against me ought to Cease you. You will then know. Get this, get this, get this. As much as you try desperately, Jacob, to get yourself away from the words and teachings of your prophets and apostles, here is what your prophet said. You will then know that I am his servant, for I speak as one having authority. Authority he's claiming right now with his teaching here. You can't get away from this, that he is speaking as one having authority. This is not a matter of his mere opinion and speculation. Now, you said that you believe that God has been God from all eternity. Here's what your prophet says. I will go back to the beginning, before the world was to show what kind of being God is. And then he says further, God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man. He once was as we are now. Question, Jacob, are we right now? Are you right now a God? He was once as we are now. Jacob, are you right now a God? Are we gods? He was once as we are now and is an exalted man and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret. I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man, in form, like yourselves and all the person, image and very form as a man. He goes on, it is necessary that we should understand the character and being of God and how he came to be. So has God been God for all eternity? Jacob, as a Mormon, do you believe that? Yeah, he's been God for all eternity. That's not what your prophet said. That is not what your prophet said. You are a new Mormon, as James said, you are a new version of Mormonism. Stop deluding yourself and all the people that you are practicing this bootleg apologetic on. You are being deceptive. Your prophet taught something totally different than you in 1844. And I grant, because it's a counterfeit Christian religion, because Joseph Smith is a supreme example of a false prophet that early on, in a monotheistic atmosphere, of course, he published the Book of Mormon. And there's monotheistic statements in it. He can't, he can't be publishing a book with polytheism in the midst of New York at that time, New England at that time, with Christianity in the atmosphere and the Trinity in the atmosphere. He can't do that. But as time goes on, more revelation is coming. And so he then says this. I'm going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. Ah, that's what James asked you. That's what James asked you, has God been God from all eternity? Jacob, you said yes. Here's what your prophet says as one speaking with authority that surpasses yours, Jacob, as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, he's your prophet. He's the one with the authority over you. And he says this. We've imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea and I will take away and do away the veil so that you may see. The first principle of the Gospel is to know for certainty the character and being of God and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another and that he once was a man like us. Yes, yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did. And he moves on now further, there's so much here. He says this here then is eternal life, to know the only wise and true God. And you have got to learn to become gods yourselves and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you. Namely, here it goes. Ready? By going from one small degree to another and from a small capacity to a great one, from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead and we are able to dwell in everlasting burnings and to sit in glory as do those who sit enthrone in everlasting power. Now, Jacob, it's amazing to me, honestly, because I have a profound deeper respect at this point and, and seeing the new young Mormon apologists, I have a profound and much deeper respect for your predecessors, the ones who actually were defending Mormonism long before you, because they didn't behave like you, they were more careful than you, they were more precise with than you. Did they get things wrong? Absolutely. But they didn't behave like this. They didn't behave like this. And so let's move on.
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Luke 'The Bear'
Oh, so you don't accept the King, follow funeral discourse or the sermon in the grove as binding as a Latter Day Saint?
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Jacob Hansen
Neither of those are. Neither of those are canonized scripture in our tradition. So I generally stick to the canonized
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Luke 'The Bear'
scripture which says the solo Scriptura Mormons. Well, I believe that's a new thing to me.
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Jacob Hansen
Now things have different binding weights and the binding.
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Jeff 'Ninja'
So the question to be asked of Jacob here is this very simply this. When Joseph Smith said in the King Fallet discourse when he gave his teaching on God and how God came to be God, and he said that he spoke as one having authority and that he was a servant of God. He's a servant of God speaking with authority. Okay, let me ask you a question. Did that have binding authority? Does that have binding authority? Because you're like, well, generally I stick to the, the canon of the, you know, the Mormon Church, I'd stick to the canon. All right, but you are aware, of course, that in your canon it also teaches the plurality of gods. And you are aware of course, that your, the teaching of your church is that you have restored prophets and apostles. Okay? So here's a prophet of your church speaking with authority, who's a servant of God, and he says that the world is wrong. He says this. Ready, Jacob? He says, you are wrong. You are wrong if you think that God has been God for all eternity. He says, I will refute that idea and take away and do away the veil so that you may see. That's what your proph says. So I have a question. Does that statement from Joseph Smith have binding authority? When Brigham Young, your prophet, who's a restored prophet, restored gospel, restored prophets. When your prophet, Brigham Young says that he's never yet given a sermon and sent it out to the children of men they may not call Scripture, does that have binding authority in you, I wonder? Does it? Or when? When Brigham Young says, as a prophet of your church, as one who has authority, he says that the only men who become gods are the sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy. Is that binding, I'm wondering, Or do you, just because it's man made religion, do you just get to just pick and choose whichever things you want to believe? And this is of course, why many, many Mormons are now ex Mormons and atheists. Because at a certain point, the human mind can't contain that much subjectivity and contradictions. And that's why many of them just abandon all faith altogether and go into atheism. Because they see the problems that you were just promulgating. They're contradictions, Jacob, and you know that they are. You have to know that they are because you're a bright man. You're a super bright man and you're speaking out of both sides of your mouth often.
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Jacob Hansen
If scripture, if there's any contradiction, then I go with scripture. However, you have to remember that both the sermon in the Grove and the King Follett discourse do talk about a head God of all other gods.
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Luke 'The Bear'
Yes, in fact, Revelation 1:6. Do you accept Joseph Smith's interpretation of Revelation 1:6?
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Jacob Hansen
You have the familiar. Remind me what that what that is?
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Luke 'The Bear'
Well he, he misunderstood the King James version to God and his father. So he thought that was talking about God and God had a father.
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Jacob Hansen
I don't hold Joseph Smith to be infallible. So I don't, I don't know and frankly I'm not sure what that has to do with if the God of Calvinism interesting.
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Jeff 'Ninja'
This, we need to talk about this. I don't hold Joseph Smith to be infallible.
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Guest or Co-host
The look on James face.
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Jeff 'Ninja'
I don't, I don't hold Joseph Smith to be infallible. This is interesting because there's a way in which Christians would say that about every prophet. Like in terms of their character. Isaiah is a sinner. Isaiah announces his sin in Isaiah chapter 6. When he gets a vision of the glory of God, he covers his mouth and he says what? I'm a man of unclean lips. I'm coming apart at the seams. Right. I shouldn't even be here. He recognizes his own sin. Moses is a sinner. He's not allowed in the promised land because of his sin and his unbelief. David obviously sinner, right? Solomon. Yep, they're all sinners. They're sins on the page, right in the Bible. Your best apostle sinner. But Paul says I'm the chief of sinners. Peter, his sins on the page. I'll never leave you Jesus. And then you know, the knife is betrayal. Three times denies, even knows Jesus total coward in that night. His life changes at the resurrection. But there's sins on the page. All right. There's sins on the page. So in a sense you could say on the one hand, you know, not without error in terms of their life and character. But guess what? You can't say as a Christian, you can't say as a Christian that the teaching of the prophets and the apostles is possibly erroneous, which is what you are forced to do in man made religion, counterfeit Christianity, you're forced to do with a prophet like Joseph Smith to say, well he's not infallible. Wait a minute, hold on now. Can an infallible God who is sovereign and all powerful give an infallible revelation through fallible men? I mean just think about the nature of the claim. If God is all powerful and he is infallible himself, can God, who is the all powerful, infallible God communicate a message infallibly through fallible creatures? If you say no, then he's not all powerful. Right, so no one's. Look, I get it. I would never want to be in your Shoes, Jacob, and try to defend the life and character of Joseph Smith. We all know about that, don't we? Don't we? So I would never want to be in a position to have to defend his character, but his teachings. Different thing. Very different thing. Because the teachings of Joseph Smith are what your church is built upon. There's a whole story of God and the work that he did in the life of Joseph Smith Jr. In New York. All that story, the golden plates, Moroni, all of that. The first vision account, which of course comes later, and there's different versions of all of that, but. And it's built upon what Joseph Smith claimed. And so when you say, I don't hold Joseph Smith to be infallible. Well, how about when he's speaking as a prophet? How about when he's telling you that he speaks as one, having authority and that the world is wrong about God, that he hasn't been God for all eternity, that he became God? So Joseph Smith, your prophet, who speaks with authority, who's a servant of God according to him, is contradicting you, Jacob. He's contradicting you
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Jacob Hansen
is morally.
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Luke 'The Bear'
Well, again, I know you. I know you try to avoid admitting that you're a Mormon and defending that position, but it's just.
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Jeff 'Ninja'
It was.
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Luke 'The Bear'
It was a part. It was a part of the agreement of this debate that. That the God of Mormonism would be a part of this debate. You know that's true.
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Jacob Hansen
I agree.
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Luke 'The Bear'
I can. Okay, then it is. Then stop dodging it.
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Jacob Hansen
No, no, it's totally true.
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Luke 'The Bear'
So the God, the God of Mormonism helps your case.
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Jeff 'Ninja'
You said so Jacob had a real problem with this. Now, the agreement before the debate was that James is essentially making the point that we're not going to walk into this debate pretending neutrality. Neutrality is a myth. All right? Neutrality is a myth. And what James is making the point of, and Jacob's agreeing to it, is that before the debate, they agreed to the fact that part of this debate would be discussing the foundations. Essentially, if you're going to say that the God of Calvinism is morally reprehensible, then. And what's important in the debate is to go to your foundations to see if you even have the ability to talk about what's morally reprehensible at all. And James is making the point that if you're saying that's morally reprehensible, he's going to ask you on what epistemological basis and grounding can you call anything morally reprehensible at all? If your God was once a man who through exaltation became a God by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel. In other words, he's not the center, he's not the reference point. It's not all contained in him. Joseph Smith says that he grew in knowledge and power. It says Joseph Smith's own teaching about God the Father is that he continues to grow in knowledge. So if he, through exaltation and obedience to laws and to his Father to some degree, to whatever degree that is, however that's explained by different Mormon prophets and apostles. If he grows in knowledge, if he grows in in power, if he had to become a God one day, then the question has to be asked, on what basis do you claim anything is morally reprehensible? Does the Mormon God get to decide? Well, who gave him the right to decide? Because he had to obey laws that were above him. So where those laws come from? Did they come from his God? Or was it that God's God, which great great great great grandfather God had in himself the standard of what is right and true and just. And that was James's point. And that's why you dodged it. It you wanted to pretend like I'm just doing this with neutrality. I'm just representing other Christians. And James refuted that too. Because you are not representing other Christians, even in your line of argumentation. Because even Christians who disagree on particular points of Calvinism, maybe they say I accept 2 points or 3 points or 1 point or 4 or none or whatever, they aren't holding to the same God you are and their reasons for rejecting Calvinism because of traditions that are nothing consistent with yours. Nothing consistent with yours. So you can't say I'm just representing the other Christian to disagree with Calvinism because you are not a Christian and you don't hold to the view that all Christians universally do about God, about his nature, about his eternal nature, about any of that. And so you can't even say that. And that's what James is pressing you on. And that's why you wanted to avoid
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Luke 'The Bear'
it, that you believe God has eternally been God. Okay, so can I read you the scripture in the LDS temple ceremonies? Elohim sends Jehovah down to organize the earth. Is that correct?
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Jacob Hansen
Yes.
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Luke 'The Bear'
Okay, so you believe in an organization, not a creation.
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Jacob Hansen
I believe that that's what creation ultimately
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Luke 'The Bear'
means, is organization of pre existing matter.
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Jacob Hansen
Pre existing stuff of some kind.
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Luke 'The Bear'
Of some kind. Okay. All right. So in all the passages that I cited, it was fundamental that God was the creator of all things. Do you believe that the Old Testament authors and the New Testament authors actually believe that creation was an organization of pre existing matter?
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Jacob Hansen
Well, I would probably go with Justin Martyr who said God in the beginning, in his goodness made everything out of shapeless matter for the sakes of men.
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Luke 'The Bear'
So you believe Justin Martyr is a New Testament author or painting?
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Jacob Hansen
No, I just, I just know that, that prior to Justin Martyr, there's nothing that teaches creation ex nihilo explicitly.
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Luke 'The Bear'
Okay, so when Jeremiah chapter 10 says that the gods who did not create the heaven and the earth shall disappear and shall perish from under the heavens and under the earth, you actually believe that they are in some sense talking about some kind of organization? Is that why your God has authority structures over him?
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Jeff 'Ninja'
Him?
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Jacob Hansen
I, I, I haven't said any of that, so. Well, how did, what's your question?
- [30:49]
Luke 'The Bear'
Okay, how did, okay, if, if the Mormon, if the Mormon God I no one died. It's okay. If, if the power of God is the priesthood and procreation and this has been taught by the general authorities of the Mormon Church.
- [31:07]
Jacob Hansen
I wouldn't, I wouldn't.
- [31:08]
Luke 'The Bear'
So you don't accept, you don't accept the general authority?
- [31:10]
Jacob Hansen
Well, I just say that I generally look at things within our canon of scripture to have priority.
- [31:15]
Luke 'The Bear'
You have.
- [31:15]
Jeff 'Ninja'
Okay, respectfully, very slippery. Very slippery. I generally look at the things in our scripture to have priority. Guess what? That didn't answer the question. He just. The challenge he presented to you. Are you rejecting what your authorities have taught you about God? What they've published, what they've said with their own mouths, what they've taught you about God? When your apostles have taught you about God, do you reject what they're saying because they are supposed to have this authority to speak these things and to teach? Remember Jacob restored gospel, restoring prophets and apostles to the Church? What happened to that? Why has it disappeared here? Do you accept what your authorities have said about God and his exaltation? Well, I generally, I generally look to our scriptures to have priority. That's not answering the question. When they've said things like Orson Pratt, The Seer, page 132, 1853. We were begotten by our Father in Heaven. The person of our Father in heaven was begotten on a previous heavenly world by his Father, and again he was begotten by a still more ancient Father. And so on, from generation to generation, from one heavenly world to another, still more ancient, until our minds are wearied and lost in the multiplicity of generations and successive worlds. And as a last resort, we Wonder in our minds how far back the genealogy extends and how the first world was formed and the first Father was begotten. But why does man seek for a first when revelation informs him that God's works are without beginning? So when you're. When Orson Pratt says that, does it have any priority at all? Is that teaching inspired? Is that something that an apostle gives authoritatively? Do you have to. Do you have to actually say, I believe that saying, I generally accept what our scriptures say as priority? Okay, fine. Now I've got some more stuff from you for you, from your own prophets and apostles. For example, do you accept Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Volume 6, Page 474, 1844. There's a lot of this in 1844, by the way, I will preach on the plurality of gods. I've selected this text for that express purpose. I wish to declare. This is where Joseph Smith is caught lying in 1844. By the way, I wish to declare I have always and in all congregations when I have preached on the subject of the deity, it has been the plurality of gods. It has been preached by the elders for 15 years. Lie, lie. Joseph Smith specifically deliberately lied here. It's not the first time. Joseph Smith's cotton lies, by the way. Lots of those. But here in 1844, he says that I've always preached on the plurality of gods. Always. I wish to declare of always in all congregations when I speak in the subject of the deity has been on the plurality of gods. Not true. Not true. But Joseph Smith tells you right here, plurality of gods, it's consistent exaltation. Wasn't always God became God one day, just like us, was a man on earth, just like this one Orson Pratt generation. He had a father. He had a father. He had a father. He had a father. You become God. There's plurality of God's exaltation. That is Mormon teaching. Jacob, why are you running away from this point?
- [34:47]
Luke 'The Bear'
So you have interpretation authority over the general authorities of the church.
- [34:52]
Jacob Hansen
I didn't claim that.
- [34:54]
Luke 'The Bear'
Well, for example, you said in a recent debate. I'm not sure how recent it was, but I think it was in the past few weeks that Father, Son and Spirit each bear the divine name Yahweh. Right.
- [35:05]
Jacob Hansen
I'm really confused what this has to do with the debate, but I'm happy
- [35:08]
Luke 'The Bear'
to tell you know what it has to do with the debate. Stop wasting my time. Answer the question.
- [35:13]
Jacob Hansen
All right. Yeah. So the Father, Son and Holy Spirit can each have the divine name predicated.
- [35:18]
Luke 'The Bear'
Okay, so when in 1916 when the Prophet and his counselors, by the way,
- [35:24]
Jeff 'Ninja'
real fast, if you guys are new to this discussion, you need to know James is pressing on this for a reason. But when, when Jacob has said that Yahweh, the name, Yahweh, the divine name, Yahweh, Jehovah, and you know, some English translations can be applied to the Father as well. There's lot of old Mormons scratching their heads. There's a lot of old Mormons scratching their heads. I know my friend Craig Ray would be scratching his head. He'd be like, wait, what, Jacob? What are you talking about? This is new Mormonism right here. It truly, truly is. And that's why James is pressing on it, to show the problem, the inconsistency. And getting to the point is, who is your God? Who has the grounding of all knowledge? And where is the truth summarized? Where's the reference point? And how do you have any right to say anything is morally reprehensible if your God is an exalted man who is increased, increasing in knowledge, increasing in power, became a God one day had to go through all the stuff that we do through laws and obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel, all that stuff. So it's an important conversation. We're going to do this real fast, guys, because we're limited on time today. I know we're going super fast here, so please forgive us. Gay. Let's go to that break real fast. Stay with us, guys. Come back with more. So commercial break. Stay with us. Make sure you do all the things like the likes and shares. Let everyone know this is going on. And again, if you guys are just coming into the broadcast, we're just going to do today because of an obligation we have in actually a few minutes here, two o', clock, we're going to do a portion of the debate and we're going to do some more extended conversation of this on this over the next couple of weeks. So commercial break. Be right back. This episode's brought to you by ion layer@ionlayer.com Go and check out the health benefits, the wellness benefits and longevity benefits of NAD treatments. NAD is nicknamed the fountain of youth for a reason. You have an abundance of this in your system when you're young. As you get older, it drops off. And now we found a way to get NAD into our system. They do it through IV treatments, but they're very expensive and it's also extremely painful and difficult. However, Ion Layer found a way to get a high dose of NAD into your system through a medical patch you wear on your arm. You wear it for about 14 hours, you get a high dose of NAD treatment into your system and no pain at all. And it is a fraction of the cost of what you would pay for an IV treatment. In the coupon code, type in Apologia in all caps. They're going to hook you up with a great disc discount for an already amazingly cost effective product. And they bless Apologia studios and help us to stay on the air and do all these programs with you. Don't forget also Ion Layer has added a glutathione patch as well. Glutathione, the master antioxidant. Go check out the health benefits of glutathione. I'm doing this stuff anyways. It's blessed my life in tremendous ways. And so if you want to focus on your health, wellness and longevity, nothing better in my mind than ionlayer.com for your NAD and Glutathione treatments. Ionlayer.com don't forget to put Apologia in all caps in the coupon code.
- [38:28]
Guest or Co-host
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- [39:11]
Jeff 'Ninja'
Welcome back everybody. Okay, so a couple of comments before we get into the a little bit more of the debate here. Let's see here, where's that comment from Brother Bear? Oh, it went so, so fast. He said something like here you go, deflection. Yeah. Can you super imagine the debate being about if the Calvinist God is morally evil and spending half of your argument attacking Mormons. Deflection at its finest. Well, Brother Bear doesn't seem to understand how debate works and how a debate over epistemology works. How do you know what is morally reprehensible? So let's frame it in a different way. Brother Bear, maybe this will help you Imagine for a second you had a Christian debating with an atheist over whether the God of the Bible is morally reprehensible. All right, so now take it out of Mormonism for a second. Now we've got Christian versus atheist. The God of the Bible is morally reprehensible. It's perfectly appropriate and necessary in the debate when the atheist is attacking the God of the Bible, saying this is morally evil, to then go to the atheist and say, well, wait a second, you're claiming this is morally reprehensible. But the question is, how do you have any justification for claiming that anything is morally reprehensible at all? Because you're an atheist who believes that we evolved in a purposeless universe of time and chance acting on matter, your ancestors were bacteria. There is nothing ultimate in this universe, nothing transcendent, that we are all just matter and motion. And your own prophets, atheist prophets, atheist ethicists, when they talk about this, will actually say, yeah, there is no good. There is no evil, blind and pitiless indifference, and there's no ultimate anything. And so morality is just an illusion in some sense. It's just something we just decide on, but it's not necessarily true. It's just what we've just convened and determined. And so you get the point. You're having a debate over what's morally reprehensible. You can go to the foundations of the one and say, how do you have any justification for calling anything morally reprehensible at all? Same thing goes in a debate with a Christian versus a Mormon. If you're going to claim the God of Calvinism is morally reprehensible, you have to have some basis to say that, I know what is morally reprehensible. And if your God was once a man who grows in knowledge and power, who had to obey himself these laws above him, how do you have any justification for calling anything immoral at all? Do you get the point? And so that's just how debate works. And when you're talking about how you know something to be true that matters, nobody is neutral. And so it's very important conversation. And yeah, I was just going to
- [41:35]
Guest or Co-host
say that was my biggest takeaway is if you're gonna claim that the God of Calvinism is evil or immoral, then you need to demonstrate why. Yeah, you need to give us something to work with. Give me one thing. Why? How do you define what's immoral? How do you. Why is that evil? Who says that's evil? Yeah, you know, and they did. James did a great job with, of pushing them out. And then finally at the end, it comes out. Well, experience.
- [42:02]
Jeff 'Ninja'
Experience, exactly. That's what comes out. Yeah. His own experience, his own interpretation of experience. And by the way, Jacob, that's not just basic epistemology. When you say, when you. When you are. When you are saying that experience is the test for truth and how you know something to be true, you haven't experienced. You have. You have no access to all experiences. It's one of the refutations of a straight empiricist epistemology. You haven't experienced all things, and so you can't truly know with certainty that what you're saying is true because you don't. You don't have all the experiences available to you. It's one of the reasons that epistemology that. That epistemology of empiricism falls short in terms of certainty because nobody has experienced all instances of a thing. And that's why empiricism will fall apart ultimately. It's not to say that we shouldn't look for evidence and be able to depend upon our experience, but a straight epistemology of like that falls apart because you haven't experienced all things. You have no access to it all.
- [42:58]
Luke 'The Bear'
The First Presidency, the Church, Jesus Christ Latter Day Saints, put out a specific document identifying the relationship of Father and Son, identifying the Father as Elohim, the Son as Jehovah. You can sit and debate and contradict the general authorities, the Mormon Church, and you're not claiming a higher authority than them in so doing?
- [43:16]
Jacob Hansen
No, because in that very document, they talk about the Son bearing the name of the Father.
- [43:22]
Luke 'The Bear'
Bearing the name of the Father as in Elohim, or because they identified Jehovah as Jesus.
- [43:29]
Jacob Hansen
I think you might be confused. In our temple, in our temple liturgy, the names are used for identification purposes, for liturgical purposes.
- [43:40]
Luke 'The Bear'
Liturgical purposes. So. So when Elohim sends Jehovah down to organize in company with Michael, that's just identification. All those Mormons that have always affirmed to me that Elohim is the Father and Jehovah is the Son, and therefore when I show them the Jehovah, Elohim is one name in the Old Testament, and they're totally blown away by that. They were all confused and you're the only ones figured out it out.
- [44:09]
Jacob Hansen
I didn't say that.
- [44:10]
Luke 'The Bear'
Well, that seems to be what you're suggesting. But. So here's the question. If you're so the God you believe in has eternally been exalted and never experienced exaltation. I'm asking this question because this is the fundamental issue. If your God became Exalted through obedience to gospel ordinances and principles which has been taught by your church. If he became exalted in that way, he cannot be transcendent and hence be the foundation of any definition of what is good and honorable.
- [44:50]
Jacob Hansen
Do you have a question?
- [44:51]
Luke 'The Bear'
I'm asking you the question, and you don't want to answer it. Did your God.
- [44:55]
Jacob Hansen
What's the question?
- [44:56]
Luke 'The Bear'
Did your God experience exaltation? Yes or no? No.
- [45:01]
Jacob Hansen
I'll answer it. Using our scriptures, Doctrine and Covenants 2017 says, by these things we know there is a God in heaven who is infinite and eternal, from everlasting to everlasting, the same unchangeable God, Doctrine and Covenants.
- [45:16]
Jeff 'Ninja'
Well, we already demonstrated with the King Fallet Discourse that that was contradicted later in Mormon theology by your own prophet. And. Well, let's try this one. Wilford Woodruff, Journal of discourse is volume six, page 120. 1857. Here we go. If there was a point where a man in his progression could not proceed any farther, further, the very idea would throw a gloom over every intelligent and fleeting mind. God himself is increasing and progressing in knowledge, power and dominion, and will do so worlds without end. It is just so with us. We earn a probation, which is a school of experience. So you just read something from earlier on in Mormon history that said God is the unchanging God. Your prophets and apostles taught that he changed. So which is it, Jacob? Because I'm sure that young Mormons that care about the truth are wondering. They're wondering, which is it? Is he infinite, eternal, and unchanging the same God, or is he increasing, progressing in knowledge, power and dominion, and will do so worlds without end? That doesn't sound like an unchanging God to me. Sounds like he's changing. Sounds like he's changing. Joseph Smith taught that. He did. Why are you now saying that he didn't? That he was always exalted? Whatever does that mean? Whatever does that mean?
- [46:52]
Jacob Hansen
121. Would you like me to continue?
- [46:54]
Luke 'The Bear'
No, I. I will not. Because it's very obvious to me. You must know, and anyone in this room who studied Mormonism knows that the LDS scriptures not only were changed between the 1833 Book of Commandments and 1835 Doctrine Covenants, but they evolved rapidly. Rapidly.
- [47:10]
Jacob Hansen
Did that verse change?
- [47:11]
Luke 'The Bear'
I'm. I know. I was not saying that verse changed. I am saying that you can find in the Book of Mormon a theology that you will not find in section 132 of the Doctrine and Covenants. So Joseph Smith at the end of his life is very different than Joseph Smith at the beginning of his life. So I'm asked. Yes. Did your God experience exaltation as taught by the general authorities of the LDS Church? For example, in the Eternal Marriage Manual that was used for decades in your church, your leaders taught your people that they had to go through the celestial marriage ceremony so they might become exalted as God did. Were they lying to their people? Or do you reject the teachings of the general authorities, the LDS Church?
- [47:52]
Jacob Hansen
Okay, I'm going to quote a general authority of the LDS Church, the President of the Church, actually, who said if anyone, regardless of his position in the church, were to advance a doctrine that is not substantiated by the standard church works, meaning the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price, you may know that statement is merely his private opinion. The only one authorized to bring forth new doctrine is the President of the Church, who when he does, will declare it as revelation from God.
- [48:22]
Jeff 'Ninja'
You mean like Joseph did? You mean like Joseph did when he was teaching on the plurality of gods and that God was not God from all eternity and experience exaltation? You mean like that? Which is what James is specifically asking you about. Are you now trying to claim with this quote in response when James asks you if God became exalted with this quote? Are you trying to claim that the Mormon prophets and apostles who taught that God was once a man who increased in knowledge, who grew and progressed and obeyed and all of that, and became a God one day? Are you trying to suggest that those Mormon authorities, those prophets and apostles, were incorrect and contradicted the standard works of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints? Saints? What are you saying here, Jacob? Because this isn't really an answer to what James asked you. Are you claiming that when Joseph and Brigham and all the Mormon prophets and apostles taught that God became exalted and he wasn't always God, are you saying that they were wrong and that's not binding on your conscience? Because there's a lot of Mormons, faithful Mormons, zealous Mormons, older than you, that know Mormonism, that are probably looking at you a little squinty eyed right now. Are you saying that that's not what we believe and that that's not binding on us, that we don't teach that to one another, that we haven't always believed that? Jacob, I know that there's a lot of Mormons that are very curious about this approach that you're taking. Let's Just take a few more seconds here.
- [49:41]
Jacob Hansen
There will be so, and it will be so accepted by the Council of the 12 and sustained by the body of the Church.
- [49:47]
Luke 'The Bear'
Okay.
- [49:47]
Jacob Hansen
If any man speak a doctrine which contradicts that which is in the standard church work works, you may know that by that same token that it is false and you're not bound to accept it as true.
- [49:58]
Jeff 'Ninja'
Okay, so let's challenge that. Okay, so when the Mormon prophets and apostles taught exaltation, did it contradict the standard works? Yes or no? That's. That's what you have to answer. That's what's being asked of you. Are you saying that what they taught contradicts the standard works? And you can reject Orson Pratt, you can reject Brigham Young, you can reject Joseph Smith because you have the standard works and they're contradicting it, or are you saying that it doesn't contradict it? Because if you're saying that it doesn't contradict it, then you are. You should be answering James honestly here. No, we do teach exaltation. He hasn't been God for all eternity. He became God one day. Right?
- [50:39]
Luke 'The Bear'
The church can publish under its own name and its own copyright, a manual to be read by the members of the Mormon Church for decades before they engage in the celestial marriage ceremony. And it be filled with lies. As long as Jacob Hansen decides he's not going to believe that. Is that what I'm to understand you're saying?
- [51:00]
Jacob Hansen
That is not what I'm saying at all.
- [51:02]
Luke 'The Bear'
Okay, then. Then answer the question.
- [51:04]
Jeff 'Ninja'
Yes, please stop being evasive, Jacob. Answer the question. By the way, I have that celestial marriage hand book. I have it. And very different from what Jacob is saying here. Let me tell.
- [51:16]
Luke 'The Bear'
You know exactly what I'm talking about. And you know what the answer is, Jacob. You know.
- [51:21]
Jacob Hansen
You know what the answer is.
- [51:22]
Luke 'The Bear'
Did God experience exaltation? Yes or no?
- [51:27]
Jacob Hansen
I just read to you from this God. I believe that God has always been God.
- [51:32]
Luke 'The Bear'
So he did not experience exaltation.
- [51:33]
Jacob Hansen
He's always experienced exaltation. He's an exalted being.
- [51:36]
Jeff 'Ninja'
What? What Someone makes sense of that. Try to. And you can't. You especially can't make sense of it with Joseph Smith. We've imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea and take away and do away the veil so that you may see flat out contradicted Jacob by your own prophet. And let make no mistake about it. Mormonism rests upon the testimony of Joseph Smith Jr. And what God said to him and what God did through him. And your own prophet contradicts you.
- [52:21]
Luke 'The Bear'
But so, so anybody in here who knows Mormonism is sitting here scratching your head. I realize that I.
- [52:28]
Jacob Hansen
Listen to me. Latter Day Saint have been my whole life and I've studied.
- [52:32]
Luke 'The Bear'
You are. You are a new Mormon. You're a new Mormon.
- [52:35]
Jacob Hansen
You are reading stuff from our canon of scripture.
- [52:38]
Luke 'The Bear'
So listen, listen like I'm reading our
- [52:40]
Jacob Hansen
canon of scripture, which is much older than me and you, James.
- [52:43]
Luke 'The Bear'
Okay, so listen to me. Listen to me. Every Mormon that I've ever talked to understood about exaltation was because they differentiated salvation from exaltation. They understood that everybody in all the foreign Mormons, everybody, even the Mormons in here went, yeah, yeah, yeah, we get all that. So you're literally telling us. And I want, I want to make sure this is on, on film, on whatever you call it, video, MP4, whatever it is. Okay, let's, let's do it. So from your perspective, God the Father never was not exalted by obedience to gospel rules and principles, to the status of a God, so that he organized a planet, had heavenly mother, had offspring. All that stuff represented in LDS teachings by apostles and prophets for the past 180 years was all speculation and can be rejected by your reading of your canon of Scripture? Yes. No, maybe I'm just going to read
- [53:48]
Jacob Hansen
what the canon of Scripture says. Mosiah 3. 5. The Lord Omnipotent, who reigneth right, was and is from all eternity to all eternity.
- [53:56]
Luke 'The Bear'
Right. And Joseph Smith did not believe in God.
- [53:59]
Jacob Hansen
Prayer every day.
- [54:02]
Luke 'The Bear'
So you're God, so you. So, so, so we do believe that
- [54:05]
Jacob Hansen
there can be multiple divine persons and that people can reach theosis. Those are all. Those are all.
- [54:11]
Jeff 'Ninja'
Oh, this was wild.
- [54:14]
Guest or Co-host
James both came out of his chair.
- [54:16]
Jeff 'Ninja'
This was wild. Jacob, Jacob, Jacob. This was low, low, low and deceptive. We believe people can read reach theosis. Now many Christians right now, people just in general are like, what's that mean? Well, it doesn't mean what Jacob is saying here. And I couldn't believe that he said this in a debate, that he would actually put this into a debate and cross examination. We'll finish on this point when he just tried to compare the Mormon story of exaltation and becoming a God and goddess of your own planet one day to the historical Christian term theosis. That's shocking. And watch. You're going to see right now that Jacob, as he is wont to do, manipulates history, lies about history, manipulates facts. He tries to use a lot of sleight of hand Whether it's with heiser or with church history terms like theosis. He just compared the Mormon story of exaltation and becoming a God and goddess of their own planet to theosis. Listen to what James says.
- [55:24]
Luke 'The Bear'
Oh, so you think theosis is the same thing as exaltation in LDS thought?
- [55:29]
Jacob Hansen
Yeah.
- [55:30]
Luke 'The Bear'
I mean, you're using a church history term. You think that when someone used the term theosis in history that it meant the same thing that you're talking about?
- [55:39]
Jacob Hansen
No, not the exact same.
- [55:43]
Jeff 'Ninja'
No, not even kind of. And listen, proof that Jacob threw that term out to try to make it look like that he's in a consistent stream. What Christians have taught throughout church history. Theosis. You know, we believe in theosis. This is what exaltation is. Oh, wait, so wait, you're saying theosis is what you believe? Well, no, not exactly. Okay, but watch, watch. Exactly.
- [56:05]
Luke 'The Bear'
It was a completely different thing. That's right. I'm glad you admitted it.
- [56:08]
Jacob Hansen
It was very similar. Go listen to the Eastern Orthodox talk about it.
- [56:11]
Luke 'The Bear'
Oh, yeah, but believe it. Believe me. Yeah. They are all. There's.
- [56:14]
Jacob Hansen
There is a. You're right. We don't bridge the ontological gap. But they basically do everything except.
- [56:19]
Jeff 'Ninja'
Which is the point.
- [56:21]
Guest or Co-host
Right?
- [56:21]
Jeff 'Ninja'
They don't. We don't bridge the ontological gap, which is the point. When you see theosis described in church history, it has to do with spiritual life, regeneration, unity, unity with God. All that has nothing to do with becoming a God like God or a God of your own planet one day. And you admit it here, but you use the terminology. It's misrepresentation. Completely. And you even admit it right there. Well, no, it's not the same thing. Yeah, they don't bridge the ontological gap, which is the point. So it's not theosis. Right. If you're not bridging the ontological gap, then it's not theosis. Your exaltation isn't theosis. It's deception. It's more misrepresentation and deception. This is becoming a pattern for these Mormon apologists. Misrepresent church history, misrepresent Christian scholarship, quote, mind people. It's just pure deception. You just admitted that theosis in church history is not what your church is talking about. But you did that because you want so desperately to make Mormonism look like it's in the long stream of historic Christianity to some degree that Christians have taught what you're teaching. And theosis is not, not, not what your church teaches about exaltation. And you know it. And you even Admit it there. We don't bridge the ontological gap. Yeah. And let me just say this to you right now. I dare you. I dare you. Double dog dare you, Jacob.
- [57:45]
Guest or Co-host
I triple dog dare you.
- [57:47]
Jeff 'Ninja'
Get yourself sitting down with a true Eastern Orthodox representative and you try to have a discussion about theosis with them and give the true teaching of your church about exaltation and say, isn't that theosis? I dare you to try. You know why? Because the Eastern Orthodox are trinitarian. They only believe in one God who is, remember this, Jacob, species unique. Species unique. You misrepresented Heizer. Heizer would say to you, no, Yahweh is species unique. There's only one of those. Heizer said, but you manipulated his quotes and you lied about him publicly. Eastern Orthodox are trinitarian, just like Protestants and just like Roman Catholics. And so theosis couldn't mean what you're trying to say in terms of exaltation becoming a God. They would reject what you're saying and slap your hand. They would refute you up and down in the middle if you tried to say that their theosis is what you're saying with exaltation. Jacob, you are lying. It's just lies about church history, about Christian scholars and Christian scholarship. It is not true. And it's not the first time, by the way, that you've been accused of lying in a debate either. And you know that as well. And so we are going to do much more on this. And today, obviously it wasn't a lot of the discussion of Calvinism, but you better believe we're going to get to that as well.
- [59:17]
Guest or Co-host
Bear, just calm your britches.
- [59:18]
Jeff 'Ninja'
We're very excited about that. Actually. That's actually the main point. That's, that's the strongest point. But I wanted to review some of this just to show there just seems to be a pattern here with these Mormon apologists in terms of how they engage. Again, I would encourage you guys after the show today to go look at my response two years ago to Jacob's response to my video. The title of the video is Mormon Sleight of hand and abuse. Just go watch that. I just encourage you to go watch it. We review his claims and then we provide the actual facts. And last week with Hayden, same situation. Why are we saying the same things to these Mormon apologists? Why are we saying the same thing? Stop misrepresenting accurately and honestly. Represent your opponent. And you're going to see, as we do over the coming weeks, more Jacob went into a debate on Calvinism. Are you ready? Apparently never reading a book on Calvinism to try to understand it. I mean, my suspicion, and of course I can't prove this, but it's what it sounded like, is that Jacob spent some time perusing the Internet with people who are opponents of Calvinism and it was just a hodgepodge of misrepresentation of Calvinism. You would do better, Jacob, if you actually studied what Calvinists have taught and you represented what they taught when you tried to refute it rather than something else. Because I listened to your opening statement and I'll finish on this thought. I listened to your opening opening statement when you talked about Tulip and I was like, huh? What? Like James picked up on it too, like limited atonement. I was like, wait, what?
- [60:53]
Guest or Co-host
Yeah.
- [60:53]
Jeff 'Ninja'
And, and Jacob, look, dude, you, you, you're doing public debates and you're leaving a record. You're leaving, you're leaving a record. We're all going to make mistakes as humans. This is part of the nature of being human. But you're demonstrating a consistent pattern of speaking publicly on things that you know nothing about and then leaving a record, a public record of ignorance. I said this to Hayden as well. You're leaving a public record of ignorance. And so I want to encourage you. Don't do that. We would do better if we engage with each other and we accurately represent what each other actually believes rather than misrepresenting. And so I think that's what we need to do. So, again, very excited to review more of this. Guys, we have to go. And so I want to thank everybody for being a part of this with us. Go to apologiastudios.com There is the all access you can sign up for to be a part of this ministry with us and join together with us as we bring the gospel to Mormons around the world. And so many Mormons are coming to Christ as a result of this ministry. The tracks are there. You can get all kinds of T shirts, other things support the ministry and Luke. Anything else?
- [61:55]
Guest or Co-host
Yeah, please go. If you homeschool your kids, go to heritagedefense.org, sign up with them in case you ever have a three letter agency show up at your door. You can put apology on the coupon code, get your first month free. And of course we want to shout out our guys from Dominion Wealth Reform Money. They're awesome and they understand how these arguments work.
- [62:15]
Jeff 'Ninja'
Yeah. Thank you guys so much. We'll catch you next week right here on Apologia Radio.