570. Clash with Students For Life at TPUSA

Summary

Apologia Radio Episode 570 — Clash with Students for Life at TPUSA

Host: Jeff Durbin (with Luke Bear)
Date: May 8, 2026
Theme: Gospel Driven, Hard Hitting, Culturally Relevant

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Episode Overview

This episode centers on a critical exchange between Jeff Durbin (abolitionist) and Lydia (spokesperson for Students for Life) at the TPUSA Faith Pastors Conference in Dallas. The discussion exposes deep rifts between the abolitionist and pro-life “establishment” camps, especially concerning strategy, justice, and the legal consequences for abortion. Durbin challenges the pro-life industry's doctrinal commitment to treating women who abort as "victims" and illustrates how this, in his view, actively impedes the abolition of abortion.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Abolitionist vs. Pro-Life: Key Distinctions

• Durbin’s Claim: The pro-life “establishment” (specifically Students for Life, National Right to Life, etc.) is the greatest obstacle to abolishing abortion (12:08). They oppose bills that would provide equal legal protection to preborn children.
• Argument: Pro-life organizations insist on legal immunity for women who seek abortions, seeing them as victims, while abolitionists argue for equal justice without protected classes.
• Memorable Comparison: Durbin likens partial measures in abolition to ending slavery but still permitting certain white plantation owners to keep slaves (24:48).

2. Language and Mission Creep

• Students for Life's Language: SFL now uses “Abolish Abortion” language on its website (17:39), confusing given their legislative opposition to full abolition bills.
• Durbin’s Critique: "They're using our language, but not our definitions or commitment" (16:06–17:39).
• Luke Bear: “Ultimately they’re empowering women to murder their children… without penalty.” (27:37)

3. Incrementalism vs. Just Legislation

• Lydia’s Position: Sometimes you need “baby steps” — incremental laws like heartbeat bills, restrictions after 12 weeks, etc., if full abolition isn't currently possible (14:46, 29:20).
• Abolitionist Pushback:
  • “We also believe in baby steps, but they must be just baby steps” (29:52, 32:35).
  • Incrementalism that allows continued injustice is condemned as partiality and “loathsome” to God.

4. Criminalization and the 'Victim' Narrative

• SFL’s Stance: Explicit opposition to criminal penalties for women, focusing instead on prosecuting abortionists (34:08, 53:03).
• Durbin’s Response: This stance creates a protected class and prevents true abolition. “You can't say, I want to abolish abortion and then… advocate for a protected class to continue to do it” (24:48).
• Evidence Presented:
  • SFL’s public calls (on X/Twitter and in open letters) for removing prosecution language for women from abolition bills in South Carolina and North Dakota (49:54–51:23).
  • These actions directly result in abolition bills being killed.

5. Do Women Know What They are Doing?

• Lydia’s Claim: 70% of women feel pressured into abortion, and she’s never met a woman who “just wants to kill her baby” (37:38).
• Abolitionist Rebuttal:
  • First-hand ministry and viral videos show that many women freely admit, even brag, about choosing abortion with full awareness (39:21–44:22).
  • Durbin: “Why are we turning the perpetrator into the victim?” (44:22)

6. Gospel, Justice, and Repentance

• Luke Bear: “If we’re telling women that this isn’t a sin, we’re not really preaching the gospel… They have no hope” (63:24).
• Key Verdict: Abolitionists see faithfulness and non-compromise as the true gospel way to confront abortion.

7. The Broader Worldview and Legal Application

• Durbin’s Illustration: Rejecting prosecution on basis of cultural influence is unbiblical and would be laughed out of court in any other scenario (70:36–73:17, e.g., gang violence blamed on “the culture”).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Jeff Durbin: “The greatest enemy to the abolition of abortion in America is the pro-life establishment.” (12:08)

• Lydia (SFL): “We want to abolish abortion. But sometimes it takes baby steps.” (14:46)

• Jeff Durbin: “Murdering anyone should be illegal for everyone… who’s going to disagree with that? Students for Life, National Right to Life…” (17:33)

• Luke Bear: “They are empowering women to murder their children in their womb without penalty.” (27:37)

• Jeff Durbin: “You can't say, I want to abolish abortion and then at the same time be advocating for a protected class to continue to do it, because then it's not criminalized by law.” (24:48)

• Lydia (SFL): “We do not currently focus on criminalizing women.” (34:08)

• Jeff Durbin: “That seems a little deceptive… actually, your organization opposes publicly the idea of prosecuting or penalties for mothers who take the lives of their children.” (34:13)

• Lydia (SFL): “I've never met a woman who is having an abortion because she just really wants to kill her baby.” (37:38)

• Jeff Durbin on SFL’s own video: “Students for Life just shared that video of the woman proud of her abortion saying, I did it, I do it again.” (44:22)

• Jeff Durbin: “Why are we turning the perpetrator into the victim?... Why are we, as Christians, not saying, We've got an issue of injustice here—this human is the victim and this one’s the perpetrator?” (44:22)

• Jeff Durbin: “As long as we hold to this doctrinal position that somebody should be protected in this crime, we will never ultimately abolish it.” (59:26)

• Lydia (SFL): “…If we can build a culture of life… then we can have a different conversation [on criminal penalties]. Right now, we are not at that place.” (60:46)

• Durbin: "If we're telling women that this isn't a sin, then we're not really preaching the gospel… that's why they have no hope." (63:54)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [12:08] — Pro-life establishment as main enemy of abolitionist bills
• [14:46, 23:24, 29:20] — Students for Life’s incremental “baby steps” approach explained by Lydia
• [24:48] — Abolition analogy with slavery and the problem with protected classes
• [34:08–34:46] — Discussion on prosecuting women vs. abortion doctors/staff; Lydia's clarification
• [39:21–44:22] — Evidence and videos of women knowingly seeking/celebrating abortions
• [49:54–52:12] — Students for Life public documentation of opposing abolition bills
• [53:03–63:03] — Full uninterrupted 10-minute confrontation around legal justice, consequences, and abolition
• [70:36] — Durbin’s courtroom analogy – refusing to excuse criminality on the basis of culture
• [74:11] — Audience reaction; fruitfulness of the discussion for opening pastors’ eyes

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Final Thoughts & Tone

The episode is urgent, polemical, and unapologetically direct. Abolitionists urge Christians and pastors not to compromise or adopt unjust legal standards under the guise of Gospel compassion or political pragmatism. The hosts maintain respect toward Lydia as a person and a sister in Christ, but make clear their profound disagreement with her organization’s guiding principles and strategic choices.

Call to Action:

• “Let your pastor hear this conversation. Really let him hear it.” (73:33)
• “God's going to abolish abortion. He's going to do it when these bootleg arguments are cast down.” (73:30)
• Visit notavictim.org and examine firsthand testimonies that directly counter the “victim narrative.”

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Summary in a Sentence

This episode lays bare the irreconcilable rift between abortion abolitionists and the mainstream pro-life movement, directly challenging the prevailing victim narrative around women who abort and urging Christians to pursue uncompromising, biblical justice as the only faithful path to ending abortion.

Transcript

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[Jeff Durbin]

Non Rockabotus Must stop. I don't want to rock the boat. I want to sink it. Are you gonna bark all day, little doggy, or are you gonna bite? Delusional. Yeah, delusional is okay in your worldview, I'm an animal. You don't chastise chickens for being delusional. You don't chastise pigs for being so. You calling me delusional Using your worldview is perfectly okay. It doesn't really hurt. She hung up on me. Desperate times call for faithful men and not for careful men. The careful men come later and write the biographies of the faithful men, lauding them for their courage.

[Luke Bear]

Go into all the world and make disciples. Not go into the world to make buddies, not to make corrosives. Don't go in the world, make homies. Right, Disciples.

[Jeff Durbin]

I got a bit of a jiggle neck. That's a joke, Pastor.

[Pastor]

When we have the real message of truth, we cannot let somebody say they're speaking truth when they're not.

[Jeff Durbin]

Take an amazing journey to a place that will blow your mind and move your mind so you will never be the same again. You shall not be partial in judgment. You shall hear the small and the great alike. You should not be intimidated by anyone, for the judgment is God's. That's Deuteronomy, chapter 1, verses 17 and on. Welcome back, everybody, to another episode of Apologia Radio. This is the gospel heard around the world. I'm Jeff, they call me Ninja. That's Luke the Bear right there. What up? You can get [e-mail] that's a P O L O G I A Apologia. Go there. Get all the past episodes of Provoked Cultists, Shilojians Apologia Radio. All that stuff is there for your listening pleasure. Hundreds of episodes there. And if you guys would sign up for all [e-mail] you get all kinds of additional content. You participate with us in this ministry bringing the gospel all around the world. And do not forget to get your free Bonson u account@ apologiastudios.com that is top tier theological education, seminary courses, all that from one of the greatest in Christian history, Dr. Greg Bonson. His life's work, his, his teaching at church, his public debates and defense of the Christian faith, his seminary courses, college courses, lectures are all there for you guys. So don't miss that. Make sure you get your Bonson U account as soon as you guys can. It'll really, really bless you. Very thankful for all of you guys joining us today for this broadcast. Important one today. We like to think that all of them are very important, but this one in particular we think is vitally important. We are going to play the best clips we got. We were supposed to get audio and video footage from TPUSA and we did not get it. We told it was going to be filmed and it actually wasn't. And so this is the best we got of some engagement that I had in Dallas, Texas. I was the abolitionist on a panel at their pastor's conference there in Dallas, TPUSA Faiths Pastors Conference. And so I was on the panel. One of the people I was on the panel with was a spokesperson for Students for Life. And so I was the abolitionist on the panel. We had an engagement and I think it'll be really, really beneficial for you to see it. And so if you guys would do all the things because this is a really, really important conversation that everyone to be a part of and understand. Your pastors need to hear about this. They need to understand and so do all the things. Do the likes, the shares, the subscribe stuff. Make sure you let people know about this episode. Recent engagement I had at TPUSA Faiths conference in Dallas with the spokesperson for Students for Life, the organization that has worked to kill so many bills of abolition across the country. So we're going to play that for you guys and again, it's the best we've got the footage we've got is the best we can do for the moment, but I think it'll still be a great benefit to you guys. Before we get to that, though, as you do all the likes and the shares and things, we wanted to bring you guys into something that we are so very excited about. So Luke and I have been doing the radio. It started with Redemption Radio, turned into Apologia Radio. We were on terrestrial radio for a while, and then in the God in God's providence and by His Grace, in 2015, we started Apologia Studios. And since that time, Apologia Studios has been able to bring the gospel message and to communicate the Christian faith and defend the Christian faith to literally hundreds of millions of people around the world. Countless people have come to Christ out of Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, the cults and atheism. We've been able to communicate the truth of God's word in so many different areas. I mean, there are, I think, thousands of videos at this point up at Apologia Studios. You guys have been, many of you have been a part of this with us since the very, very beginning. And so you should know, we'll just bring you into this. You should know that God has, has brought the message of His Word into areas that have just blown us away. I mean, there are Christians who are getting their basic discipleship in places where it's illegal to be a Christian. Through the ministry of Apologia Studios, that stuff is happening. Tens of thousands of babies have been saved from death as a result of Apologia Studios and working together with end abortion now. It has just been incredible and it's humbling to be a part of it. And this is something we're doing for the very first, very first. 2015 is when we started all of this. So all the different programs, all the outreach, the debates, the on the street evangelism, everything, since 2015, right here in Apologia Studios, God has grown. As you can see right here in Apologia Studios, the subscribers to about 600,000. It is just impacting so many millions of people. And it's happening on a daily basis, regular basis. It's just an incredible thing to be a part of. But we have never, since starting Apologia Studios, done a fundraiser for Apologia Studios to basically reboot everything, create new content, new programs to communicate the gospel to even more people in a more compelling way. We have plans right now for some new stuff that we are doing in terms of Apologia Radio. We're, we are redoing the whole thing. We want it to be more engaging. We want to impact the world even more with the gospel. We have some great plans right now in a number of different areas to help to equip you, your family, your loved ones with the message of the gospel in the defense of the Christian faith. We are working and I know and I just want to ask for your forgiveness. 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And so what we're going to do is we're going to put the fundraising link underneath this video. So if you've benefited from Apologia Studios, join us, join us, help us to raise what we need to raise, to basically re launch everything Apologia Studios and to just give you even more compelling content, more shareable content, stuff that will bless you and your families. More content that's going to reach the lost with the gospel in the end. This is the truth. This is the only reason Luke and I did this. We want people to know Jesus, we want people to be saved. We want them to know God and have the gift of eternal life. And that's the ultimate goal here. So help us to get to that goal. I'm hoping that we can meet this goal in 60 days. I truly believe that we can. So if you've been blessed by Apologia Studios and you want to help to bring the gospel with us to even more people, if you would just go to the link and help give, help us to get to that goal and then watch. And then just watch, by God's grace, what's going to come from that. We're very excited to get started here on that. And so I just want to encourage you if this has blessed you, if this ministry is a meaningful and important part of your life, if you would just give there, help us to get to that goal, and then let's see what God does with that. So thank you, everybody who's been a part of this with us from the very beginning, literally. And so before we start anything, I'm

[Luke Bear]

just gonna say, I think we can now literally say that the gospel's been heard around the world because the earth is round.

[Jeff Durbin]

That's right.

[Luke Bear]

And we have had an astronaut.

[Jeff Durbin]

Yeah. People didn't like our last episode that we even mentioned that for 30 seconds. So. All right. TPUSA faith. So I was asked some time ago to go to this pastor's conference in Dallas, Texas, and I was told that I was going to be the abolitionist on the panel and that we were going to have a discussion with some pro life leaders and an abolitionist on these issues. And the goal was to have a conversation that was obviously respectful, that was gracious, that was not, you know, overly confrontational, I was told. But I did it. I went and let me just show you what happened. So again, if you're just joining us, unfortunately we did not bring our crew. And the reason we didn't bring our crew is because. So we can film this for your benefit and the world's benefit. We were told that TPUSA was our faith, was Was going to film it and that we would have access to the content immediately. And so that's what we were told. So I didn't bring Carmen because we were told there's no point. They're filming it. We're going to be able to get it immediately so we can let everyone see the conversation. Unfortunately, as soon as it was done, we put the word out to TPUSA Faith. Can we get the content? And it turns out it wasn't actually recorded and we have not even received audio from it. So all we have is the audio from Darrell, one of the members of our church body, who recorded it on his phone, his audio. And we received from one of the Storms crew, we received the cell phone footage from some of the conversation. However, as janky as some of this is, it is so vitally important for you to hear because if you're new to this conversation, the distinctions between Christian abolitionists and the pro life industry and machine are not minor.

[Luke Bear]

Right.

[Jeff Durbin]

They are not minor. You have heard me said, and I'm going to say it again, that the greatest enemy to the abolition of abortion in America is the pro life establishment. And I've told you a million times that I'm not being hyperbolic when I say that. I'm not just trying to, you know, I'm not just trying to be cute or compelling in some way or telling you the truth. I've sat in legislators, legislatures across the country in defense of bills of abolition. I've sat there in front of legislators begging for our bills to be heard, to be brought to the floor for a vote. And sitting next to me at times are the leaders of the pro life establishment and they are telling the legislators do not pass a bill of equal protection. And the reason that they say that is because they have a doctrinal commitment. And that doctrinal commitment is that a woman who willfully engages in abortion is to be seen as a victim. She is to be able to do it with impunity, no punishment, no consequence and immunity, protection by law. That is the pro life establishment's position. And we're going to demonstrate that to you today in the episode. But on the panel I was being brought as the abolitionist to have this discussion. And so this is the spokesperson for Students for Life that was on the stage with me, Lydia. She is really sweet. She is, I believe, a genuine person. I believe that Lydia is very passionate. I know that she loves Jesus. So she's a sister in the Lord. So I'm going to start that, I'm gonna start discussion this way. She's a sister in Christ. I have no intention of abusing her at all. And this is not about personalities, it's about the principled issues. And so as much as I do really respect Lydia, I do and I appreciate her love for the pre born and all the rest. The organization that she represents and is working for is the organization that has helped to keep abortion legal in states across the country where we had bills of abolition. We've had legislators across the country literally tell us that they switch their vote for our bills from yes to no because of Students for Life and organizations like Students for Life that told them do not vote yes on that abolition bill. And so I can say without question that there are states across the country right now where a bill of abolition did not pass in large measure because of Students for Life and organizations like Student for Life. Students for Life. So I'm going to play this, this is where Lydia is talking here. And you'll See that I ask her a question. This will sort of lead off the discussion. Here we go.

[Lydia (Students for Life Spokesperson)]

Any of you are old, angry white men that hate. Some of you might. But. But no, we're here because. Because we care about women and their children work for life. And so we kind of have to show these women, yes, we want them to come to Christ. We want to end all abortion. We want to abolish abortion. But sometimes it takes baby steps. Sometimes it means showing women, hey, we actually offer resources and help for you. Planned Parenthood.

[Jeff Durbin]

All right, so I'm just stopped there. I'm going to make some commentary. We'll make some commentary. Luke and I will, as we're going through this. But I want you to see this part. This is. This is near the beginning. And I want you to hear what she says again about we want to abolish divorce. And then watch. Watch me, Luke.

[Pastor]

Watch.

[Jeff Durbin]

Watch me. When she says.

[Luke Bear]

Are you playing the video?

[Jeff Durbin]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Luke Bear]

Okay.

[Lydia (Students for Life Spokesperson)]

I thought it takes baby steps sometimes. It means showing women, hey, we actually offer resources and help for you. Planned Parenthood does not offer diapers and formula for you. We do. The Pro life movement does. We are the side that actually cares about you. Women's rights begin, and we have to show them that we care. And I think that's how we find common ground. The amount of times where I'll have. I'll have a woman come up to the microphone and their children work for life. And so we kind of have to show these women, yes, we want them to come to Christ. We want to end all abortion. We want to abolish abortion. But sometimes it takes baby steps. Sometimes it means showing.

[Jeff Durbin]

Sorry, mess it up there, but there you go. You saw my head. Like, that's okay. So this is. This is where my understanding was that my being brought to this panel discussion was to come and represent the abolitionist position. And so I didn't come to be nasty to anybody or to be rude to anybody, but to simply represent the abolitionist position, because that's who I am. And she's part of the pro life establishment. And so obviously, when she said, we want to abolish abortion, note something, she's using our language. That's our language. Abolish has a particular definition to it. And why I put my head over, like, what I didn't know that Students for Life wanted to abolish abortion is because they don't. Students for Life may borrow the term now of abolish, but Students for Life does not want to abolish abortion legally because in order to abolish something, it has to be criminal for everybody. Like what. What do. What do abolitionists say? Murdering anyone should be illegal for everyone. All right, now that seems like something everyone would have to say yes to. That's the point. Murdering anyone should be illegal for everyone. Who's going to disagree with that? Students for Life, National Right to Life, Louisiana Right to Life, all these organizations, they actually.

[Luke Bear]

Sorry, let's pull up their website.

[Jeff Durbin]

Does it say right there?

[Luke Bear]

It says right when you pull up the website, Save Babies, Empower women, Abolish abortion.

[Jeff Durbin]

Are you kidding me? It's on their website. That's Students for Life. Yep, that's it. Send me the link. I'm going to show that. I'm going to show the audience. That is wild. That's the thing. So Students for Life now is using the language of abolish on the front of their website. And that's confusing to me because. And it's confusing to every legislator who's put our bills in because they know that Students for Life has worked against the bill they've put in to abolish abortion because they don't want to abolish abortion. Abolishing abortion would be abolishing abortion, like abolishing slavery. It's illegal for everyone to do it. Students for Life does not believe that a woman should ever see any criminal penalties for the unjustified taking of life in her womb. They believe that she ought to be protected by law to do it without any penalty. And so that. That's just a matt. That's a matter of fact. That's the case. That's exactly the truth. So we'll get. I'm gonna have Luke send that to me so you guys can see it with your own eyes. Okay, good. Let me pull it up here. And let me get in here. Students for Life. There you go. All right. So there you go. Yeah, let's show that. Gabe, let's show that website right there that Students for Life, Save Babies, Empower women, Abolish abortion. Save Babies, Empower women, abolish abortion. How, pray tell, do you have, as the header on your website, abolish Abortion, when you literally, as an organization, have blocked the abolition of abortion in every state that we've done it and you've spoken on it. Amazing. Amazing. So here we go. Now I'll let you see some more of this. And this is where the question starts to come.

[Lydia (Students for Life Spokesperson)]

Hey, we actually offer resources and help for you. Planned Parenthood does not offer diapers and formula for you. We do the Pro life movement does. We are the side that actually cares about you. Women's rights begin and we have to show them that we care. And I think that's how we find common ground. The amount of times where I'll have, I'll have a woman come up to the microphone when I'm having debates on campuses. And they were like, wait, Planned Parenthood doesn't offer resources. You guys actually offer help. They're shocked to hear it because the left has done such a great job at lying to women to genuinely make them believe that pro life laws are killing women, that women are somehow bleeding out on, on parking lots because of pro life laws, which has never happened, by the way. And so no, absolutely. We have to cater our messaging towards that. I actually truly believe that Gen Z, my generation already really deeply cares about justice. They're just completely misled as to what that justice really looks like.

[Jeff Durbin]

And so we have to stop there for a second. Very important. I thought this is. And Lydia said this in both talks. We had two sessions. It was the same session, but it was in two different audiences. This is obviously a speech that she has. So she went through exactly the same thing in the second session. She said this. And I don't remember if I got to respond to it in the second session or not, but I'll do so now. She said that, like, this generation cares about justice, but they're misled on the issue of justice. Like, and it's our job as the pro life establishment to guide them into what justice truly is. I like the way that sounds. I love the way that that sounds because I actually agree that people have an unavoidable desire for justice. If you reject God, you're made in his image. God's throne is established on justice. You're not going to avoid the passion and desire for justice. Even as an atheist, you can't avoid that. But you are going to be misguided. I agree with Lydia. You'll be very misguided on what actually is just. And it's the duty of Christians to help the world understand God's standards of justice. But that's the point. You can't take somebody's misguided understanding of justice and give them a misguided standard of justice. And how do you know it's misguided? How do you know that it's errant and wrong? How do you know this? You know it because God's word tells you the standards of justice. And our point as abolitionists to the pro life establishment is that you aren't actually Teaching and equipping the culture to understand what justice is because they can't be believing something that is unjust. And then you give them and deliver to them another standard that is also unjust. Like for example, saying that you can kill certain babies, right? You can kill these babies, not these babies. You can kill the babies without heartbeats, but not the babies with heartbeats. You can kill the babies that don't feel pain, but don't kill the babies that do feel pain. That's partiality, unequal weights and measures. It is also unjust for you to suggest in law, which is what students for life does, that certain people will be considered guilty for the murder of children, but this class over here will be protected. That's partiality. That's unequal weights and measures. God calls that loathsome. God calls that detestable. So you're not going to correct the problem of injustice by feeding into it more injustice. You don't teach the culture to love God's law and God's justice by avoiding God's law and God's justice. So I agree with Lydia. They want justice. Agreed. They're made in God's image, but they're misguided. But you can't teach them something that is unjust to correct injustice. It doesn't work that way. How would anybody imagine that? That's how you correct injustice. By giving more injustice to someday maybe get to justice? No, to correct injustice, you bring what the full weight of justice. You bring what really is just. And how do you know? By what standard do you know if something is just or unjust? I thought we knew that as Christians, particularly as Protestants, because of the word and revelation of the true and living God. He tells us what is just and right and true. Here's more.

[Lydia (Students for Life Spokesperson)]

Show them that the side of justice is actually the pro life movement is the pro life movement that cares for both women and their children in the womb. And I think that rebellious spirit that my generation has to rebel against, all the wrong things can be turned to get them to rebel against the pro abortion culture that has dominated our society. And so I think that's how our messaging has to go. We have to show compassion towards women and emphasize that to show them that we, not the pro abortion movement, are truly the side that's pro women.

[Jeff Durbin]

May I ask a question?

[Pastor]

So I have a profound level of respect for you, Lydia, and I know

[Jeff Durbin]

you have a hard foot reborn and

[Pastor]

you truly mean what you say you said a moment ago. And I think this would help to have the pastors in here hear the difference, that you want to abolish abortion.

[Jeff Durbin]

I believe in your heart you believe that.

[Pastor]

But in terms of the approach, because

[Jeff Durbin]

that's what we're being asked about right

[Pastor]

now, the approach, I don't mean this in any way offensively, but I wasn't aware that Students for Life wanted to abolish abortion.

[Lydia (Students for Life Spokesperson)]

We do. That's actually in our mission statement.

[Pastor]

What does it mean to abolish abortion?

[Lydia (Students for Life Spokesperson)]

Yeah. So we want. I mean, I think what all of us want here is this Supreme Court to recognize preborn children as persons under the law and be protected under the 14th amendment. And our strategy definitely looks different than your guys's right now question.

[Jeff Durbin]

If we had the preborn recognized as persons under the 4 14th amendment, if that happened. Right. The preborn are recognized as persons, what doesn't that mean that the same laws protecting the born persons would apply to the preborn persons? And doesn't that mean that if preborn persons have the same protection as Luke? Right. A born person, then if somebody tries to, with malice aforethought, in an unjustified manner, kill the preborn person in the womb, doesn't that mean that anybody involved would be culpable? So how come. Please tell us, how come Students for Life says they want to abolish abortion and see full personhood at fertilization, but they don't want the women who deliver the babies to the abortionists or the women who, with malice aforethought, take potions and pills to kill their own babies. They don't want them to ever see any justice whatsoever because they're victims themselves. You see, you can't say I'm for the abolition of abortion if you say that I want a protected class to be able to continue to do this in perpetuity. Imagine for a second we step back into time now, right? We go back during the time of slavery when it's alive and well in this country. And, you know, we're talking about, you know, say before the Civil War, we've got slavery in the north at times and we've got slavery in the South. And now we go, okay, we're going to abolish this thing. All right, everybody, okay, let's do. Let's abolish it. And so we're going to pull together legislatures and we're going to abolish slavery. And then. And then in the legislation, it was like the abolition of slavery in these United States. And it says we're abolishing it. Chattel slavery is illegal kidnapping and slaving is capital offense. You know, hopefully we say something like that. But then inside that same legislation for the abolition of slavery, it says, however, certain classes of white plantation owners may continue the practice of slavery, kidnapping and enslaving our black brothers and sisters with impunity and immunity. They. They will be a class that will be permitted to do it. Now, we don't like this happening in America, but we will section off a certain group of white people, white plantation owners, who can continue to do it. They will not. They will not be punished. They can continue it, but everybody else that's not in the white plantation owner category we've selected will be criminally prosecuted for doing the same practice. But these people will be protected. I have a question. Would that be abolition? Is that the abolition of slavery if you have a protected class? Because you can't say, I want to abolish abortion and then at the same time be advocating for a protected class to continue to do it, because then it's not criminalized by law. There's still a protecting class that continues to be able to do it.

[Luke Bear]

Well, I think she gives the whole definition of how they want to abolish abortion. And at the very end, it's. And empower women. Right. And so what they're doing, they are empowering women. And ultimately they're empowering women to murder their children in their womb without penalty.

[Jeff Durbin]

And they're doing that. Luke, you're not exaggerating, because they're doing that in their legislation. That's what you're referring to, right? Like they will criminalize abortion for the abortion doctor, the nurses, the staff, but then they write into the same legislation. You're not exaggerating. No, they will write in the legislation that this shall not apply to the mother.

[Luke Bear]

Right.

[Jeff Durbin]

That is empowering them by law.

[Luke Bear]

And I mean, I don't know, at some point you're going to get to it, but that's. They tried to remove that from our bills.

[Jeff Durbin]

Yes, yes, exactly. And we're going to get that. We're going to actually show you guys some stuff here in a second. So get ready for this. There's more to be said.

[Lydia (Students for Life Spokesperson)]

We want to end abortion where we can. So if I could stack my fingers right now and end all abortion right now, we would. That would be amazing.

[Jeff Durbin]

Legally, Criminally. By criminalizing it or. See what I'm saying? You gotta be very careful with this language because every Christian would want to say, if I can snap my finger, no more abortions. Okay, but let's. Okay, that's that's fantastic. We all agree with that. But how do you maintain that? Don't you have to have law that prohibits it at that point? So we snap our fingers, Lydia. We snap our fingers and abortion is no longer allowed by law. So under Students for Life's doctrine, when the fingers are snapped and legislatively it's now banned. Is it banned for women too? Because that's the issue. Here we go.

[Lydia (Students for Life Spokesperson)]

But we know realistically, there are some really idiotic Republicans out there that aren't really and will not pass laws to protect life and act conception. And so sometimes that does mean we have to take baby steps and we have to be really irritated when we do those. And we don't stop there. We don't pass a wall ending abortion at 12 weeks and say, oh, that's it. We say, hey, that's the bare minimum. We're saving some babies right now. We're protecting some babies from death and we're going to continue to push these weak Republicans towards passing even better pro life legislation.

[Jeff Durbin]

And here we go again. This again, if you're new to this discussion, it's so important. This is aversion of the conflict between what's so called immediateism versus incrementalism. She's called it baby steps. Like we're going to do baby steps of things we don't like. What we're really saying is simply this, those baby steps. Because we also believe there's baby steps, right? Like, for example, like we can't necessarily at this moment abolish all abortion across North America, but we can abolish abortion, say in Louisiana, right? That's a baby step, right? So we also believe in baby steps, right? It's mustard seed kind of things. They grow into trees. It's, it's a different places in different points. We can't just bring justice all at once everywhere at one time, right? I mean, that's unfortunately not, not possible. However, when we say baby step as abolitionists, we're saying a just baby step, right? So, for example, one thing that God would never allow or be pleased with is that we do a baby step of an iniquitous decree. Isaiah chapter 10, right? So, for example, a baby step of injustice. We're gonna, we're gonna end this injustice by saying, okay, half right, you can still continue to kill the babies, but you can only kill these ones. They call that a baby step. We call that injustice.

[Luke Bear]

Yeah.

[Jeff Durbin]

We say that if, if you take God's word and you see what God specifically tells legislators, like show no partiality and justice and judgment and. And unequal weights and measures and abomination. And he says to Romans chapter 12 or 13. My mind's blank right now about the deacon, the servant of Romans 13. The Deacon of God is the civil magistrate, and they are not to wield the sword of justice in vain. Now, if you go and instruct God's deacon, the magistrate, to wield the sword of justice in vain, you are working against what God says is the duty and role of the servant in Romans 13. You can't do that. So what we're saying is the bills that have to be. That are presented, maybe baby steps, but they had better be baby steps that God says is faithful and he will bless. You can't put a baby step of a bill in that. God literally says he loathes, he hates this. It's unjust. Do not do it. Don't show this kind of partiality. Don't do that in vain. You can't say, God, please bless this legislation that you hate. Right, but she's saying we're doing it in baby steps. What she really means is the Students for Life, their position is that you. Where God says justice and only justice shall you do, they're saying justice and sometimes injustice can you do. That's what they're doing.

[Luke Bear]

Yeah.

[Jeff Durbin]

And that's what. So with this whole thing of like, immediateism, incrementalism, baby steps and all the rest, it gets confused and muddy. What we're saying is that it must be just, it must be pleasing to God, it must be principled, it must be faithful. And what they're saying is that you can be unjust, you can compromise, you can be unfaithful, all in an effort to somehow convince the culture to love justice by doing injustice. How's that work?

[Lydia (Students for Life Spokesperson)]

So our strategy might look different from. From yours, but I wish that, and I hope that the pro life movement, even though we have different strategies from abolitionists, that we can be united against abortion.

[Jeff Durbin]

Sure.

[Pastor]

My question would be to that, though. In all the states that I've specifically gotten bills in, and I've been sitting before legislators, the legislators have told me who had their minds changed to not pass our pills, to give equal protection to all humans, that Students for Life opposes this bill, that Students for Life doesn't want the criminalization of abortion for every person who's involved, that you guys do want women to be able to take the lives of their children in the womb with legal immunity and impunity because you believe that they're victims. That's what the legislators who have killed our bills have told us is that you guys have stopped these bills that would abolish abortion because you do not believe that the woman is actually guilty and that you do not. Do not ever want her to be able to be punished in any way because of taking the life of a child.

[Lydia (Students for Life Spokesperson)]

So we do not currently focus on criminalizing women. We. We believe that.

[Jeff Durbin]

Interesting how she says that. We do not currently focus. But here's the. Here's the thing, right, Luke, That. That seems. I don't mean to be nasty to her. That seems a little deceptive. Yeah, we do not currently focus. Actually, Lydia, your organization opposes publicly the idea of prosecuting or penalties for mothers who take the lives of their children. So it's not just like. Well, we're currently not focusing on that. We've got a different focus right now.

[Luke Bear]

Neither are we, for the record.

[Jeff Durbin]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's like our goal isn't to go after women. Our goal is to protect the babies and give equal protection, which means anybody involved. I mean, everyone keeps bringing up the woman. Our bills do not mention women. It's equal protection, meaning anybody involved. But they keep saying the woman. We're not currently. Currently working for the prosecution of women. Criminalizing of women. But actually, that's not true, though, because it's students for life that publicly says that they are opposed to the idea of mothers receiving any kind of penalty or prosecution for this. I'm going to demonstrate to you in just a second here. Let's watch the rest of this.

[Lydia (Students for Life Spokesperson)]

Women who get abortions feel some kind

[Jeff Durbin]

of pressure, says she. She. So she says 70% of women feel some kind of pressure. Pressure. I'd ask two questions. One, where's that statistic from? And two, what does that even mean, that some. That 70% of women feel some kind of pressure? Do you mean that some of the women who feel this pressure are saying, I feel the pressure of the financial problem that will come with a baby. I feel the pressure of what this will do impacting my college. I feel the pressure of how this will impact my job. That kind of pressure. Because that is a bootleg excuse to kill a human being.

[Luke Bear]

Right.

[Jeff Durbin]

It is terrible if you're talking about coercion, like a woman being threatened by somebody to do it. Those numbers are not 70%. No, not by a long shot. Not even close. The. The people, the. The amount of Pete. Women who are literally threatened with violence and coercion is so infinitesimally small in the numbers of actual abortions. And so this Is what I mean, this conversation, the way this is framed by the pro life establishment, like 70 women feel some kind of pressure in some way. Okay, let's dissect what that means. Are those good excuses not to be prosecuted for murdering your own child? I mean, would we give a mom a pass who say, murders her one year old baby because it's too much of an inconvenience? It's really hampering her lifestyle. She just doesn't want to do it anymore? Wouldn't we just say, yeah, lady, you're going, you're going to get, you're going to court, you're going to get punished for murdering your child. I don't care what you thought was difficult about your child. You don't kill a human being because it's challenging or it's hampering, you know, your vibe or something like that. I mean, but that woman is saying like, well, you know, I felt pressure to do this. Okay. There's a lot of people that are in like in conflict with other human beings and they murder them and they're like, I felt a lot of pressure to kill this person because I didn't like them.

[Luke Bear]

Yeah. Again, I wouldn't. You wouldn't allow that argument for a mother that killed her children outside of the womb.

[Jeff Durbin]

Exactly, exactly. So, so Lydia says that 70 of women feel some sort of pressure. Listen, there's more. Listen.

[Lydia (Students for Life Spokesperson)]

I work with women who consider abortions every week and I never meet a woman who is having an abortion because she just really wants to kill her baby.

[Jeff Durbin]

Okay? So she says, I work with women every week and she said that. I've never met a woman who said that I just want to kill my baby. I don't know what. We got to get the rest of the audio here. But I said to her, like, I said later, I said, like, people who say that betray any time outside of

[Luke Bear]

an abortion in like completely, as respectfully as I can say. Have you ever stood outside the abortion?

[Jeff Durbin]

Right, because we, we have.

[Luke Bear]

Yeah.

[Jeff Durbin]

And we're listening to Lydia say that we're going, yeah, have you ever been.

[Luke Bear]

Right.

[Jeff Durbin]

Because we, we can't even count how many times women have bragged about killing their babies. But here's what, here's what makes it worse. Here is Lydia, who is a, the spokesperson for Students for Life on stage with an abolitionist having this discussion. And she says, 70% of women, I feel some sort of pressure to do it. All right, we talked about that. And then she says, I've never met a woman and I meet with him every week who just wants to just kill her baby. You know what's weird about this was I'm. I don't. I don't have any video. You can't see my face. And I'm just going, wait a second. I'm sitting with Students for Life. And she is saying to the audience, she is saying, I've never met a woman who just wants to do it. When literally about a week before this panel. Watch this. Students for Life shared this video. Hold on. There you go. There you go. Okay. All right. Students for Life shared this video. So I'm talking to Students for Life. I've never met.

[Luke Bear]

This is one of ours.

[Jeff Durbin]

I've never met a woman who just wants to kill her baby. Which every abolitionist is going. Were you out in the steps of the Supreme Court during Dobbs because they were downing abortion pills, saying, shout your abortion and all that stuff at the. The footsteps of the Supreme Court? Have you ever been outside of an abortion mill? Have you. Have you been on YouTube seeing women bragging about their abortion, shouting their abortions, doing dances and twerking as they're going in to kill their baby? And then also, did you not see your own video? Students for Life shared this video about a week before these comments by Lydia. This is Students for Life's platform. And did it again. Okay, there you go, Max. What? Okay.

[Luke Bear]

Can't live with them, can't live without them.

[Jeff Durbin]

Okay, let's do it again. Might have to edit that.

[Woman in Students for Life Video]

So I've had an abortion. Do you think I'm an evil person?

[Lydia (Students for Life Spokesperson)]

No.

[Woman in Students for Life Video]

I don't have an abortion.

[Interviewer in Students for Life Video]

No.

[Woman in Students for Life Video]

Then why?

[Interviewer in Students for Life Video]

I'm sorry you had an abortion.

[Lydia (Students for Life Spokesperson)]

And I wish I'm not.

[Interviewer in Students for Life Video]

And I wish I'm not sorry. I wish you felt like you didn't have to choose.

[Woman in Students for Life Video]

No, I want.

[Interviewer in Students for Life Video]

You wanted to choose to have an abortion?

[Woman in Students for Life Video]

Maybe.

[Interviewer in Students for Life Video]

Yes. Were you excited to have your abortion?

[Woman in Students for Life Video]

No. It was the most painful process I've ever been through, and I will do it again 1000%.

[Interviewer in Students for Life Video]

What made you feel like you had to choose abortion?

[Woman in Students for Life Video]

I chose it because it was my choice to make and because I didn't want to bring a child into a world that's dying.

[Interviewer in Students for Life Video]

The world is dying?

[Woman in Students for Life Video]

Yes.

[Lydia (Students for Life Spokesperson)]

The world is dying.

[Interviewer in Students for Life Video]

How is that going to help the world from not dying?

[Woman in Students for Life Video]

Well, why would having a kid while I'm trying to go through college and support my family, how would that benefit me?

[Interviewer in Students for Life Video]

Well, do you think your life is just about you?

[Woman in Students for Life Video]

Yeah, it is, because it's my life.

[Interviewer in Students for Life Video]

Do you think you have any duty as A member of our society? Or do you think your body or your life is meant for anything greater than just your own pursuits?

[Lydia (Students for Life Spokesperson)]

No.

[Interviewer in Students for Life Video]

Is there any point to this life?

[Woman in Students for Life Video]

No.

[Interviewer in Students for Life Video]

I feel really sorry for you.

[Lydia (Students for Life Spokesperson)]

I don't.

[Interviewer in Students for Life Video]

But I feel really bad that you had an abortion. I hope you go to standingwithyou.org you get resources and if you ever find your yourself pregnant again, I would abort it immediately again. I hope there wouldn't there. Do you think there's something less extreme that we.

[Lydia (Students for Life Spokesperson)]

Yeah.

[Woman in Students for Life Video]

I'm going to get sterilized next year actually.

[Interviewer in Students for Life Video]

That's really sad. That's really sad.

[Woman in Students for Life Video]

It's not sad.

[Interviewer in Students for Life Video]

I'm sorry you feel that you have to do this.

[Woman in Students for Life Video]

I'm ending my bloodline and I'm proud of that.

[Interviewer in Students for Life Video]

I feel. I feel really. I have nothing but simplicity for you. Cuz I feel truly sorry for you.

[Luke Bear]

Why? Why Sympathy? I'm. I'm outraged when I hear that.

[Jeff Durbin]

It's compelling. I mean truly, truly compelling. Guys, there. There's no end to the videos of women in our nation bragging about their abortions and saying these exact things. Like I said, I was on the steps of the Supreme Court when the Dobbs decision was happening. There were so many people there and pro aborts there. And like I said, they're dancing, they're twerking, they're bragging and shouting their abortion. They're downing abortion pills right there on the Supreme Court steps. They know what they're doing. And we're painting. It's the pro life establishment that is painting a portrait of the woman, the mother who takes the life of her own child. They're painting this portrait that she's some victim, she doesn't know what she's doing, all of that when the reality is completely opposite. And it's amazing because the spokesperson for Students for Life is on stage with me saying, I do this every week with women. I've never met a woman who is just like proud of having an abortion. When Students for Life just shared that video of the woman proud of her abortion saying, I did it, I do it again. I want to do it. And even with that woman on their own page testifying against their narrative, they still share the narrative. Why? Why are we doing this? Why are we creating a narrative about this woman who kills her baby that is just, in fact not true. It doesn't accord with reality. Why are we doing this? Is it just propaganda? Is it just so you have talking points and a campaign title like Empower women. We're all for women I want to say this. I want to be for the babies. I want to be for the babies. I want to be for the victim in this. Why are we turning the perpetrator into the victim? Why aren't we, as Christians, saying, all right, we've got an issue of injustice here. This human is the victim and this one's the perpetrator, or these ones are the perpetrators. Why are we now placating to the culture by creating a narrative about one of the perpetrators saying that, no, no, no, no, she doesn't know what she's doing. And she's literally telling you on your platform, I know what I'm doing. I know what I'm doing. Don't feel sorry for me. I love abortion. I'll do it again. I'm gonna do it again. Right? Because it's my life.

[Luke Bear]

Yeah.

[Jeff Durbin]

Well, are you. Are you sure that's all you have to live? Yes, it's my life. I don't care about anybody else. That's the point. That's what leads to abortion. It's my life. I don't care about anybody else. I don't care about who it impacts. I want to get rid of this human being because it's my life.

[Luke Bear]

I'm trying to find this article. I just shared it the other day. Not to be there. That might be it. Not to be shared. An article about Christina Applegate where she very clearly is like, no, liberals know what. Know what this is. They know what abortion is. They know it's killing a baby. We know.

[Jeff Durbin]

Yeah.

[Luke Bear]

Like, there's. It's no secret.

[Jeff Durbin]

That's right. So, Lydia, actually, let's do this. We're gonna go to commercial break. Let's do a quick commercial break, and we'll come right back. I'm gonna actually show you the evidence that Students for Life works against the abolition of abortion. So stay tuned, be with us, like, and share. Do all the things. Be right back. This episode is brought to you by ion [e-mail] Go and check out the health benefits, the wellness benefits, and longevity benefits of NAD treatments. NAD is nicknamed the Fountain of Youth for a reason. You have an abundance of this in your system when you're young. As you get older, it drops off. And now we found a way to get NAD into our systems. They do it through IV treatments, but they're very expensive and it's also extremely painful and difficult. However, Ion Layer found a way to get a high dose of NAD into your system through a medical patch you wear on your arm. You wear it for about 14 hours. You get a high dose of NAD treatment into your system and no pain at all. And it is a fraction of the cost of what you would pay for an IV treatment. In the coupon code, type in Apologia in all caps. They're going to hook you up with a great discount for an already amazingly cost effective product. And they bless Apologia Studios and help us to stay on the air and do all these programs with you. Don't forget. Also, Ion Layer has added a glutathione patch as well. Glutathione, the master antioxidant. Go check out the health benefits of glutathione. I'm doing this stuff anyways. It's blessed my life in tremendous ways. And so if you want to focus on your health, wellness and longevity, nothing better in my mind than ionlayer.com for your NAD and Glutathione treatments. Ionlayer.com don't forget to put Apologia in all caps in the coupon code. Welcome back everybody. So we're talking right now about the panel discussion that I had at TPUSA Faith Conference in Dallas, Texas. I was on the panel with some pro life leaders and representatives and one of those was Lydia, who is the spokesperson for Students for Life. Students for Life is one of the pro life establishment organizations. They hold to the position that a mother who willfully takes the life of her child in the womb is to be able to do it without punishment or consequence and legal protection to do so. They do not ever want to see the abolition of abortion if it means that the woman herself is also going to be seen as culpable. And so we're at the event. Unfortunately, we don't have any good video and audio of it as we were promised. So this is the best we have to work with here. And so let's play some more after I demonstrate something to you guys. You're going to hear it said that Students for Life doesn't like publicly oppose bills of abolition. Not true, not true. They do publicly oppose. You can look at their whole history. They publicly oppose. They speak out against bills of equal protection that would lead to the prosecution of women. It's all over their platform. Kristin Hawkins has spoken about it publicly. There's talks on YouTube. You can listen to her saying it herself. She's debating the issue. She does not believe that women should be seen as culpable or as guilty in this. And they do it publicly. And not only do they do it publicly in terms of lectures and talks and debate stuff, but she even have an example of just before or shortly before the discussion I had the panel discussion I had with Lydia. Students for Life Representative One of the bills that we've been supporting, and we have brothers and sisters who are involved with to abolish abortion in the state of South Carolina was ultimately assisted to die by Students for Life. So check it out. Check out the tweet. So here's a tweet for Students for Life Action. Now we call upon Medical affairs chair Senator Danny Verdin to bring it up in the full committee. Tell Senator Verdin you want to see the Unborn Child Protection act unquote brought up for a vote with amendments. Amendments removing prosecution language against women immediately. I'd say that's pretty public. That's on X. And that is about a bill in South Carolina that would have abolished abortion and provide equal protection. And what does Students for Life Action do? They swoop in and they say, all right, but do it with an amendment. An amendment to what? Abolish it except for women. Who's bringing the babies to the doctors. We're going to abolish this, but we're going to remove one of the main perpetrators in the act of abortion. Like, and does anybody, anybody know of any abortion doctors that are running around in mobile command units like throughout the city and neighborhoods, you know, looking for children to kill? Right, looking around for babies to kill in wombs. Or is it the mothers who are bringing the babies to abortion doctors and air conditioned facilities to do it?

[Luke Bear]

Or is it the mothers that are taking pills, abortifacients to kill their babies in the womb?

[Jeff Durbin]

That's right.

[Luke Bear]

Or looking up the DIY abortion videos on YouTube.

[Jeff Durbin]

Exactly. So I mean, here we go. This is their version of abolition. Like let's provide the Unborn Child Protection act. But make sure you do an amendment legislature that removes prosecution language against women immediately. How's that, how's that abolition?

[Luke Bear]

Here's, here's one too. I sent out. If you saw it, this was our bill in North Dakota last year that had an excellent discussion, got a bunch of votes for it on the floor in North Dakota. This was a letter that was sent out. It says as national state pro life organizations representing tens of millions of pro life men, women and children across the country, let us be clear. We state unequivocally that we do not support any measure seeking to criminalize or punish women and we stand firmly opposed to include such penalties in legislation. And then it goes on to say, we ask that you reject Resolution 6. Who signed that letter, Kristen Hawkins, President, Suit for Life.

[Jeff Durbin]

Hold on, Luke. Is that a private letter or public.

[Luke Bear]

I believe this is a public letter.

[Jeff Durbin]

Yeah. So it's available for the public to see. Right.

[Luke Bear]

So it's, you got the Susan B. Anthony, Pro Life America, North Dakota Family Alliance, Carol Tobias, National Right to Life. Then Kristen Hawkins, March for Life, Concerned Women for America, Legislative Action Committee, like who's who of the pro life industry.

[Jeff Durbin]

Yep.

[Luke Bear]

All right, that was a year ago.

[Jeff Durbin]

That's right. Take a look at this too. Gabe, show them my screen here. This is Students for Life Action. Same situation in South Carolina. All right, I read you, I read you the one post. Listen to this one. This is, this is what they sent out for people to be a part of assisting with this process. Take action. In South Carolina, Students for Life Action is fighting to protect the pre born in your state. Join us. Fill out the form below to urge your state legislators to defend life. Take action now. Tell South Carolina senators to remove prosecution for women language and vote to pass Senate Bill 1095. Now remove prosecution for women language.

[Luke Bear]

That was just a few weeks ago.

[Jeff Durbin]

Exactly. All right, so here we go. I'm going to do this, okay, for your benefit everybody. This one's long. All right, but here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to shut up. I think the better way to do this is to just shut up. I'm going to say nothing. I'm not going to stop and pause. I'm going to play through. This is a 10 minute clip now and this is where she and I are really engaging. I'm not going to say a word. I'm literally just going to now hit play. I'm gonna let the whole thing run its course here. All right. And so now that you've seen what I just showed you of their public opposition abolition, I could show you much, much more. I now want you to hear this discussion in light of what you already know and have seen. So here we go. And be sure everyone to please share this across your social media. This is I think devastating.

[Lydia (Students for Life Spokesperson)]

I think that's a conversation we can have later criminal penalties, but we can't even end late term abortion in some states. Our focus and our, and our messaging should not be on giving women the death penalty for having abortions. Our focus and messaging should be on hey there is better for you than abortion. We offer real resources. This is the reality of abortion and we should be protecting life and, and just doing the bare minimum any like term abortion. So you and I, I think we have the same end goal. We have different ways of. Of getting there.

[Pastor]

I don't think. I think maybe you and I personally do, but I don't think your organization or national life does.

[Lydia (Students for Life Spokesperson)]

Would you fight to end a Heartbeat, a law that ends abortion after a heartbeat?

[Pastor]

Well, I. I'll tell you, I'll put it this way. And I have, again, a profound level of respect for you and love for you. In South Carolina, in Georgia, in Tennessee, we had bills to abolish abortion. This year. This year, abortion would have been abolished. We would have had it in Louisiana, in Georgia, in Tennessee, in South Carolina. But right now, as it stands, abortion is current in those states and women are protected by the pro life establishment to kill their children in the womb. Because Students for Life organizations like yours have a doctoral position that a woman who willfully takes the life of her child in the womb is never to be seen as guilty.

[Jeff Durbin]

Not.

[Lydia (Students for Life Spokesperson)]

Not necessarily never. We want. We want our conversation right now to be focused on ending abortion. And as we ship the culture, then we can have that discussion. I think it's counterproductive to be focusing on that right now. Justice when we. No, it's. We want justice for preborn babies, but we have to be smart. Like, like, again, you and I, we could end all abortion right now. We could. But again, there's.

[Pastor]

We had a chance to end up

[Jeff Durbin]

in Georgia and South Carolina and Tennessee

[Pastor]

and Louisiana and Students for Life specifically.

[Dr. Christian or Dr. Lau]

I'm gonna come in just really, really quick. I want to share really quick with the audience. Part of the reason why I'm allowing this conversation to continue, part of it is because I think this is actually a really great example for all of you in this room to really hear how they're talking about this. Because either way, I can tell you this, they're both being bold about their stances and where they. What they believe in. They're fighting for life. So I think it's good for you guys to hear this, to hear the dialogue, because what I don't want you guys to walk out of the room and do is to not talk about it. We have way too many pastors of people in America who just stay away from the issue because it's too hard to deal with. They are up here right now dealing with a difficult issue, and neither one of them are saying, I don't want

[Pastor]

to talk about it.

[Jeff Durbin]

Oh, yeah. And I want to say that. I want to say that I do love you,

[Pastor]

but scripture. And I'm going to say this to all the pastors in the room. Scripture says, justice and only justice shall you do. Justice and only justice shall you do. And so with that, as a demand from God, you shall show no partiality in judgment. We have had dozens of bills of abolition across the country in this nation. And the bills you need to know this as pastors have all been stopped. You speak about a six, a six week bill, a heartbeat bill, a ten week bill, or whatever it is. We had abolition and the agreement of all of our legislators in Louisiana. When we were going to the floor in Louisiana, we had the agreement of the overwhelming majority of the legislators in that state to pass our bill of equal protection. It was so simple. It said what you believe. It said that everyone is human from fertilization. Every human being in Louisiana deserves to equal protection under the law. You affirm that message, but then your organization and many others came out and told our legislators, do not pass that bill on this reason. They said, we do not believe that women should ever, ever see any consequence or penalty as a result of taking their child in a womb. These organizations do not hold to the historic position of the Christian church, nor to the Bible, that everybody who engages an abortion needs Christ and they need to be forgiven of the sin of abortion. And what we say is that we need to abolish abortion and that is to say do it in the same way we did slavery, that there is no protective class that is allowed to continue in this heinous practice. And the unfortunate thing is, I know you believe what you believe, Sister. I do know that the unfortunate thing is that there is a doctrinal issue or dogma that has been attached to this fight by the pro life establishment that you need to hear this. Pastors, please hear me humbly. I'm not standing above you, I'm looking at you eye to eye. Their doctrinal position opposes what we teach the congregations. Their doctrinal position opposes justice for the preborn. So I think it would be wrong

[Jeff Durbin]

for me to come up here today

[Pastor]

and to flatter anyone on this stage and not tell the truth that abortion continues to be legal in many states across the country. Because there are two different perspectives here. One is that we need to do this without compromise, boldly, as Christians, with the word of God and with God's law. There's another position that says we can

[Jeff Durbin]

do it with neutrality.

[Pastor]

And when God says justice and only justice, you shall do to legislators, that's his word to legislators. There are some organizations that tell them justice and sometimes injustice shall you do. And so we need to ask the question as Christians and as pastors, will

[Jeff Durbin]

we engage this with the word of

[Pastor]

God and the gospel and God's law? Because God clearly in his word blesses faithfulness and not compromise. He blesses faithfulness and not compromise. And again, as much as I love and respect you, I need to make sure that I identify. The distinction between us is that one of us is saying justice and only justice shall you do. And one of us is saying compromise on the millions of lives of these children that are dying. And so I just want to say that I believe that we need to come into these states and these legislatures and we need to actually be bold as Christians and use God's word and say, no more compromise. Every human being in this state deserves to be treated equally as every other human being, born or unborn. And in that way we actually abolish and criminalize abortion. And I want to just say this. And nowhere in my bills that I put into any state, nowhere, not once in any bill that I put in across the country does it even mention, mention the sex. Nowhere it just says human from fertilization. Every human deserves equal protection under the law. Here's the question again.

[Jeff Durbin]

Do we agree with that?

[Pastor]

It's yes. Yeah. The pro life establishment comes in after we put these bills in and we get the approval of the legislators who say they will pass it. And they say, no, we can never pass that because it would mean that she'd be seen as morally culpable. And I want to say that we will never, ever end abortion in any state if we continue to doctrinally hold to this position that there must be a protected class of killers, that one person will be immune from consequence or punishment. So as long as we hold to this doctrinal position that somebody should be protected in this crime, we will never ultimately abolish it. And I, I believe, Lydia, that you want to abolish it. I don't believe that your organization does. And I, I don't mean that disrespectfully to you.

[Jeff Durbin]

I mean that with love.

[Lydia (Students for Life Spokesperson)]

Yeah, I, I want to just, I want to clarify. I also believe, believe that we're only going to end abortion with God. With God on our side. Absolutely. Here's the issue. First of all, I, I want to clarify that we largely allow you guys to push your bills and we do not publicly attack them and we allow them to. You, they, you guys have never passed one. So there's that.

[Pastor]

You just did it last week.

[Lydia (Students for Life Spokesperson)]

No, we, we, we absolutely will be unapologetic.

[Jeff Durbin]

You publicly came up.

[Lydia (Students for Life Spokesperson)]

Let me Finish. We unapologetically talk when people ask us and share why we don't currently focus on criminalizing women. Here's why. A majority of women, myself included, when I used to be pro choice, genuinely do not know there's a child in the womb. Treating a woman who is pregnant, who is dealing with the physical side effects of pregnancy, who is being pressured by society, who is told that her baby is a clump of cells by the abortion, is treating her the same as you would a cold blooded murderer is completely killed. A toddler is not realistic, is not compassionate. Now, if we can build a culture of life where, yes, we've ended all abortion, we can have a different conversation right now. We are not at that place. I do believe abortionists, the ones that are profiting off of killing these children, that are lying to them and hiding ultrasounds from these women, absolutely, they should be in jail. This is evil. But women I have never met a woman who is considering abortion, that is, that is doing so with the full complete knowledge that she is ending a child's life. There is always, there is always, there is always some sort of pressure and just, just she's so blind and we need to be emphasizing compassion. So no, I'm with you. I would like to ask you, would you vote against a law that ended abortion after a heartbeat if that's the best we could do?

[Jeff Durbin]

I'll answer that question.

[Pastor]

But I'll also say if you would go to your Students for Life Facebook page and just look down a few videos of the video you post posted last week that I think contradicts what you just told this audience. And it was with Kristen and she was talking with a college student and the college student was bragging about murdering her children, bragging about knowing what she did and bragging about being able to do more abortions. So I think when someone says that women don't know what they're doing, I think it betrays any time outside of an abortion mill because we've stood outside of the abortion mills where women are bragging to us about taking the lives of their children. I stood on the steps of the Supreme Court when Dobbs was happening while women were celebrating saying shout their abortions and they were taking pills in front of cameras in the media to kill their children. No, women know what they're doing. And proof that they know what's in their womb is simply this scripture says the law of God is written within them. Yeah, they know.

[Lydia (Students for Life Spokesperson)]

I did not want to bring Dr. Christian and I did not know.

[Dr. Christian or Dr. Lau]

I want to bring Dr. Lau to this conversation because, yes, I would rather

[Lydia (Students for Life Spokesperson)]

talk about taking on the abortion industry. Trust me, I would rather talk about.

[Pastor]

That's what we're doing.

[Dr. Christian or Dr. Lau]

You know, I want to. What does it look like for a pastor to support a woman in a medically.

[Jeff Durbin]

So there you go.

[Pastor]

Yeah.

[Jeff Durbin]

She said we.

[Pastor]

What?

[Jeff Durbin]

She says that's what we're doing, but you're stopping it. She wants to take down the abortion industry. What we're trying and students for life is not allowing us to do. So. You want to make any comments, Pastor?

[Luke Bear]

Oh, man, there's so much. One, I would say that, you know, she talked about if we can build. I forget how she worded build. Basically build a culture of life or something like that. Like, how do we do that? Through the gospel. Right. And so if we're not preaching the gospel, we can't do that. And part of the gospel is repent of your sin. And if we're telling women that this isn't a sin, then we're not really preaching the gospel.

[Jeff Durbin]

That's why they have no hope.

[Luke Bear]

They have no hope, right?

[Jeff Durbin]

Yeah.

[Luke Bear]

Right. So I was thinking about this this morning as we were. As I was getting ready to come in and, like, it dawned on me that everything she just said, this literally, like, takes us right back to the garden. Right? The woman's like, oh, well, it's. It's the, the culture that deceived me. I didn't. I didn't know this was a baby in my womb. Of course, that's the ones that are claiming that they were coerced. Right. Not the, not the other ones that we were already talked about where they clearly know what's going on. But it's the woman saying, I didn't know. It's that they deceived me. They told me this wasn't actually a human and, you know, it's not my fault. And then you got the men over here, right, that are supporting this, the pro life industry, saying, well, it's God. It's the woman. It's the woman you gave me. She. She was deceived. So I'm just. I'm just here for her. I'm just supporting. I'm just, you know, she ate the fruit. I'm just supporting her. But it's. It's the woman you gave. It's. It's literally what it is. It just goes right back to the garden and it's. We're just reliving that. So.

[Jeff Durbin]

That's Right. So do you take a look at my screen Right now, here, guys, there's a great website. Years ago, I had started a hashtag, not a victim, just to try to get over this narrative of the pro life establishment talking about women you know are victims. And so someone started a. A website, not a victim.org and it's just filled with all kinds of footage. You can see it yourself. Just footage. Just go watch it. Video after video after video after video of women fundamentally denying themselves with their own words, their own mouths. The narrative that organizations like Students for Life and National Right to Life share about these women, the narrative that Lydia just shared, right? They don't know. They don't know what's going on inside of them. Just open your eyes. Watch these women. They are telling you, I don't agree with your narrative. They're saying it themselves. Give you an example here. Check this out on my screen. This is on X. A person named Kia writes this. My abortion is the kind people love to judge the most. I wasn't underage, I wasn't assaulted, and there was no medical emergency. I got pregnant because I knowingly had unprotected sex. No accident, no rare failure. Just my own choices. By their standards, it was, quote, irresponsible. I knew abortion was an option and I took it. Not because I couldn't survive it or raise a child. I simply didn't want one. I wanted sex without becoming a parent. And I chose not to carry the pregnancy. There's no redemption arc here. I don't regret it. Nothing terrible happened to me afterward. No punishment, no downfall. My life is still good. And that reality alone challenges everything people like to assume about women who make this choice. There's your victim. Pro life establishment. Another one. We could go for days and days and days and days and days with the video after video after video. We've put together compilations. Go to not a victim.org research it yourself. Talk to the people that are going into planned parent and into these abortion facilities as they're going in. Listen to the women bragging to you, this ain't the first one I killed. Ain't gonna be the last one neither. I mean, that's what you hear. Why is the pro life establishment creating a narrative about these women that these women themselves reject? They are saying, that's not true. I knew what I was doing. I like to have abortions and I'll do it again. Yeah, and they'll tell you, I know it's my baby. I have a right to murder my baby. Those. I've heard that so many times, I've forgotten How many times? I know it's my baby, and I have a right to murder my baby. I have a right to kill my own baby. It's my baby. I can kill it if I want to. They know. So this narrative of, like, these women don't even know what's inside their bellies. Oh, yeah, really? Well, a, God's law says that they know because his laws were in their hearts. And B, can we just, I think, point out the obvious? Isn't it obvious to everybody when this narrative is spread about the woman? She just doesn't know that it's a baby inside of her. Then pray tell, why is she going into an abortion facility? Are you serious? These women going into abortion facilities don't know that it's a baby growing inside of them. Then what are they doing in an abortion facility? They're not going to a wart removal clinic. Right. It's an abortion facility that ends the lives of babies. And I just got to say this one more thing. We have to call out suspicious forms of argumentation when we hear them. If it's coming out of our mouths, we got to fix it. If we're hearing it, we got to confront it. We got to refute those who contradict. And this is so important when the pro life establishment says, well, you got to understand, like, these women have been influenced by the culture. Like, they're just part of the culture. The culture's just lied to them, and the culture's just indoctrinated them with the idea that you can kill your own baby if you want to, and all this stuff. It's just the culture fed that. And so, like, they go kill their babies, and, like, you know, it's just their. Their. You know, they're results of their own culture. All right, now do slavery with. I mean, wasn't there a culture of slavery? Wasn't there a culture where people just accepted the fact that this is perfectly fine to do? We can kidnap and enslave black people. We can own them, right? Didn't the culture teach them that? And didn't we still say it's a crime, it's over if you do it, you be prosecuted. I don't care what you accepted before. There's a standard that's a higher law than you, and now you must yield to it? Or how about this for the young man in, say, Chicago who over the weekend just starts shooting some. Some. A group up, right? He's part of a gang. He shoots a group of people up. He kills two or three people on a Saturday night, right? They capture this guy, young man, they bring him in, and the young man's lawyer goes. Your Honor. Your Honor, you see, here's the problem. This young man is a. He's just. Just a result of the indoctrination of his culture. He just grew up in this. Your Honor, I mean, this is my. This is my Louisiana lawyer.

[Luke Bear]

It's pretty good.

[Jeff Durbin]

It's pretty good. And so you understand, you, Honor, this young man, since he's young, has been around these gangs, and they're the only family that he has. That's all they got. And so he just grew up believing that this was perfectly fine to do, and this is his only family. And. And family made him do this. And this is all he knows. He's been deceived. Your Honor. It's just tick tock. And it's all the. The environment around him, Your Honor. And so, you know, the handgun and the bullets and then the bullets penetrating his fellow neighbors is just a sad story of a man who just couldn't. Couldn't do otherwise. Your Honor. And so, you, Honor, I want you to see him as guiltless and as himself a victim, just like his other victims. They're victims. But Yana.

[Pastor]

He.

[Jeff Durbin]

He. He. He really is too, you, Honor. I'd like you to please just exonerate the man, and I'd like you to just go ahead and give a verdict. Not guilty on the basis of his culture, environment. Would anybody ever, ever, ever respect that? Ever. What would the judge say? You know, it's a good, compelling argument. This young man did this willfully, with malice aforethought. He killed those people. And you want me to excuse it because of his environment and the gang life? No, he still gets punished because there's a law higher that he has to obey. Whether he understood it perfectly or not, he can't murder people. And these women who are doing this boldly, they can't be permitted to do it, and they can't be fed a narrative that's not even true. Well, you know, just. They're just victims of their culture. I agree. People are influenced. Bad company corrupts good morals. That's in the Bible. But bad company corrupting good morals doesn't actually allow the person to get exonerated who was impacted by that bad company and did bad things. All right? This is not a Christian worldview. This is not a biblical worldview. Stop selling this crap to this nation. Because when you sell it, you only push justice further and further downstream. All right? We're not there yet. Because you want to compromise on the most fundamental basic issues of justice. And so the abolitionists say, no more. No more. We will leave it to the audience to think about only God only knows who it was that said in the video when she said that. And he was like, bull malarkey, Malarkey, bull stuff that storms.

[Luke Bear]

Kid is just.

[Jeff Durbin]

He's a victim of his own environment and his own culture. But to be fair, it deserves a serrated edge.

[Luke Bear]

That's an appropriate serrated edge. Yeah, that would be an appropriate use of that term.

[Jeff Durbin]

It'd be an appropriate use of scubalong.

[Luke Bear]

Yeah.

[Jeff Durbin]

Yeah. All right. So that's the show for today, guys do if you would please share this episode. Get the word out. Get the word out. It was a great opportunity to have a discussion with students for life and have the representative give their position. God's going to abolish abortion. He's going to do it. When these bootleg arguments are cast down, that's what's going to happen. And so how do you do it right now? Get the word out. Let people hear this conversation. In particular, let your pastor hear this conversation. Really let him hear it. Luke, you want to, you want to wrap us up here? Lay in the plane.

[Luke Bear]

By the way, I did. I mean, listening to the audio, there seemed to be an overwhelming amount of agreement coming from the audience.

[Jeff Durbin]

Yes, there was.

[Luke Bear]

So that was encouraging. And I have heard from a number of people that have received the audio or the video since then that it's been very effective and a lot of pastors are having their eyes open. So praise the Lord. But we do want to thank our sponsors, of course, AMTAC Blades. We got our beautiful battle axes and blades right there. Bill Rapier, dear friend and legendary Navy Seal. You can go to amtechblades.com put apology in the coupon code and get 5% off your order. And he will match another 5% to help save babies. We do have a very, very special and abortion now blade. I have in my possession that we will be doing a special something something on soon. So be listening for that. Just want to whet your appetites. And of course, Heritage defense, you can go to heritagedefense.org and put apology in the coupon code there and get your first month free. Bradley Pierce, you've heard us talk about him. He writes all these bills for us and he also will be on call if you have a three letter agency visit your house.

[Jeff Durbin]

That's exactly right. Also, as we're finishing the show up here today, guys, I want to encourage you if you would go into the. The description Here, underneath this YouTube video, right underneath my finger here, look for the link for the Apologia Studios fundraiser. If, if you missed what I said, go back to the beginning of the episode. We're going to give you the full details there of what we're doing right now to raise funds to basically right now, reboot Apologia Studios. Be more effective, reach more people with the gospel. Literally hundreds of millions of people have been impacted and viewed the content since 2015. Going to go to the next stage now, the next level. We are going to come out with some powerful things that will impact more people, more compelling content, enjoyable content. The apps coming across, Apple and Android, all that stuff. And so if you would be a part of this ministry with us, go just give, help us to meet that budget goal. It's, it's in, in the scheme of things, it's not even that much in terms of a reboot of the studio of this, of this size and caliber. And so help us to meet that goal as quickly as possible so we can get all of this underway as soon as possible. Thank you to everybody who's All Access. If you're not all Access yet, go sign up@ apologiastudios.com sign up for all Access. Be a partner with us in this ministry. Help us to communicate the message of Jesus around the world. We want to thank you guys for being a part of this ministry, sharing the content, being a part of this ministry with us and being all access, making all of it possible. I will catch you next week. We'll catch you next week right here in Apology Radio. I'm the ninja, that's the bear.

[Luke Bear]

Peace out.

[Jeff Durbin]

And we'll see you.