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575. God Can Sin? The Utter Collapse of Mormonism!
01:18:51
Join us for the newest episode of Apologia Radio in which we examine a recent conversation with Greg Sukert and Hayden Carrol. Hayden criticizes the Bible and the early church and makes some wild and ignorant claims. Greg joins us to talk about it. Tell someone about this!
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- [00:00]
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- [01:15]
Jeff Durbin
Non Rockabotus must stop.
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Greg Sukert
I don't want to rock the boat.
- [01:19]
Jeff Durbin
I want to sink it. Are you gonna bark all day, little doggy, or are you gonna bite? Delusional. Yeah, delusional is okay. In your worldview, I'm an animal. You don't chastise chickens for being delusional. You don't chastise pigs for being so. You calling me delusional using your worldview is perfectly okay. It doesn't really hurt. She hung up on me. What? What? Desperate times call for faithful men and not for careful men. The careful men come later and write the biographies of the faithful men, lauding them for their courage.
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Luke Bear
Go into all the world and make disciples. Not go into the world and make buddies. Not to make roses.
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Jeff Durbin
Right.
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Luke Bear
Don't go into the world and make homies disciples.
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Jeff Durbin
I got a bit of a jiggle neck. That's a joke, Pastor.
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Greg Sukert
When we have the real message of truth, we cannot let somebody say they're speaking truth when they're not.
- [02:22]
Jeff Durbin
Take an amazing journey to a place that will blow your mind and move your mind so you will never be the same again. Where shall I go from your spirit? Or where shall I flee from your presence? If I ascend to heaven, you're there. If I make my bed and Sheol, you are there. If I take the wings of the morning and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, even there your hand shall lead me and your right hand shall hold me if I say, surely the darkness shall cover me, and the light about me be night. Even the darkness is not dark to you. The night is bright as the day, for darkness is as light with you. Psalm 139, everybody. One of those verses that doesn't teach the omnipresence of God, but here we go. We are here with Apologia Radio. This is the gospel heard around the world, everybody. I am Jeff. They call me the Ninja. That's Luke the bear right there.
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Luke Bear
What up?
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Jeff Durbin
We are joined on the program today with a good friend of mine, Pastor Greg Sucert. Greg. Welcome, brother.
- [03:31]
Greg Sukert
Hey, brothers, thanks for having me.
- [03:32]
Jeff Durbin
Absolutely. So I'm going to bring everyone into the conversation. First thing is go to apologiastudios.com Ap? L? A apologia studios.com go there, get all the past episodes of Cultists Sheologians provoked Apologia Radio and sign up for all access. When you sign up for all Access, you make all of the content available here possible for everybody. It is being seen globally. Hundreds of millions of people have been impacted by the ministry here at Apologia Studios. Mormons coming out of Mormonism to the true Christ and a saving relationship with him. Jehovah's Witnesses, atheists. Tens of thousands of babies have been saved as a result of this platform. And in coordination with end abortion now. And so you can partner with us. Go to Apologia Studios. Sign up for all access. Get all access. You get all kinds of additional content to bless you for being a part of this ministry with us. And don't forget, I always say it. Don't forget to do it. You have to do this. Make time to do it. It'll bless your life. Sign up for a free account@apologiastudios.com for BonsonU. Dr. Greg Bonson, one of the greatest Christian philosophers and apologists in the history of the Christian church. The Bonson family has given to us his life's work, his seminary courses, college courses, teach public debates, like 2,000 pieces of audio content, all available to you. Top tier theological education to equip you. It is all free at Bonson U. Don't forget to get your account. It's all free. And as I always say, a big thank you to everybody who's all access. Because though it's free, it's actually not free. We have to pay for all of that and as you stream and everything else. And so all access partners make even that education possible. So thank you a thousand times, thank you. One Last word before we jump into the show today. We are right now in the process of planning and getting ready to build a brand new Apologia Studios everything. New programs, new tools, everything is going to be completely different and it's going to bless your life. We're so excited to do it. So you can go to apologiastudios.com give help us to get through this fundraiser. It's the first fundraiser we've done for Apologia Studios. Help us to meet our goal so we can start production. All these things, this whole thing is going to change. There's going to be so much more access to tools, resources@ apologiaostudios.com new programs, a lot more conflict driven media. We're very, very excited about it and so help us to get to the goal@apologiaostudios.com give. Thank you everybody. Okay, so here we go. So Greg, we've known each other for some time. Greg and I did some work when you were with Anchored north, when you were doing Anchor north on a testimony video. Great quality, amazing production and it was just such a joy to do that with you years ago. And so GRE and I have known each other for a while. And then I saw Greg, that you had a like a ring camera video go up where you were talking to some Mormon missionaries and that had a great impact on a large number of people. And you have recently been doing more and more of that. And you had Hayden Carroll, the Mormon apologist on your program. You've actually filmed that out here, didn't you?
- [06:43]
Greg Sukert
Yeah, we came out to Mesa to film at Redeemer Bible Church.
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Jeff Durbin
Well, right on. Right. I love those guys. Well, okay, so that went up and I saw it. But then a couple of days ago it came across my feed and what I saw was the video that is titled on your channel Greg Sukert. It is titled is the Mormon God the same as the Christian God? And in this video, this is where Hayden says some things that I'm glad that he put on record and express what Mormons like him actually believe about God. I thought this conversation was super helpful. And this particular video you put up is 37 minutes long, approximately. But you said you have more coming, right?
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Greg Sukert
Yeah, it was a part of a larger three and a half hour discussion that we're dropping episodically week after week on my channel.
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Jeff Durbin
Excellent. Okay, well, let me, let me just get everyone into this as everyone's joining in the show today. By the way, everybody do all the things that YouTube likes. Do the likes, the shares, the subscribes. Let everyone know about this because you're going to learn a lot in this episode. But you started engaging with Hayden Carroll. Why? Why did you pick Hayden Carroll?
- [07:56]
Greg Sukert
Well, I picked Hayden Carroll because when you, when you talk to missionaries and a video like that goes online, you get all this criticism. And you've probably gotten this criticism before when you talk with Mormon missionaries. Why are you talking with 18 year old kids who don't know anything? And I say, well, first of all, I want everyone to know the true Christ as he's revealed in the Old and New Testament. So it doesn't really matter what age they are. If they come knocking on my doorstep, I call that doordash evangelism. I didn't even have to go out looking for the conversation. God brought them to me, so I'm going to share the gospel. But second, it's like, okay, so you don't like me talking with these missionaries. They say, you know the Latter Day Saint community in the comments, they go nuts saying, well, you've got to talk to someone else. So then I said, fine, I'll go talk to someone else. Who should I talk to? And that's how I got introduced to Hayden Carroll. Online. I heard that he was being referred to as the latter day St. Charlie Kirk because he goes to universities and talks with people about how Joseph Smith is a true prophet of God. And I said, well, this seems to be the current Mormon darling when it comes to engaging the other side of the aisle. Let me just go straight to the source. And so it was funny because I went to Arizona on my own dime to go talk with Hayden. And then a lot of my comments in my YouTube video are, well, you just, you didn't have a good faith discussion. You went there just to not have a good faith discussion. You're just, you're just posting stuff because you want to prove it wrong. And I'm like, you just can't win. You can't win with these Latter Day Saints, right? It's like I talked to your missionaries, now I talk to your apologists. Like, guys, I want anyone who I talk with to know Christ and I don't actually know who to talk to. I'm actually more confused than ever now among the Latter Day Saints, sort of
- [09:49]
Jeff Durbin
damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. So in this conversation you try to focus in upon the major points of doctrinal conflict between us and Latter Day Saints. And so let's just, let's get right into It And Greg, at any point you want me to stop, you just say stop. But here's what we're going to do, guys. We're going to review this conversation between Greg and Hayden and we're not going to get through all of it. It's about 37 minutes long. But we're going to get to some key points near the beginning that I think are vitally important to understand in terms of the vast chasm between Mormonism and biblical Christianity. And I think you'll be able to hear it. And I was thankful that Hayden put it out on the line and he was clear and communicated what he believed about his God in contrast to the biblical God. And so let's get right into it again. Any point, guys, you want me to stop, let's go ahead and tell me to stop.
- [10:48]
Greg Sukert
Walk through. So when I teach evangelism or I teach how do we share the gospel, you know, we walk through basically four different words. God, man, Christ. Response. So let's just walk through, like, the differences when we use these terminologies, because I think, I think we can agree that we use the same terms, but we use them very differently. So let's talk about God. Like in the Latter Day Saint Church. Who is God?
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Hayden Carroll
He's our Father. Yeah. We reject the perfect being theology that came out of the neoplatonism of the 5th century that said God is the greatest conceivable being. Right. From the Greek philosophy that turned God into, from our point of view, turned God the Father into immaterial, still a personal being, but this immaterial, spaceless, matterless being. And we can talk about the Trinity and how our.
- [11:42]
Jeff Durbin
Let's stop there. Okay, so Hayden's claim is that something took place centuries after the life and death and resurrection and ascension of Jesus, where the Christian church began to invent these ideas about God, where God is immaterial and omnipresent and those sorts of things. What were you thinking initially, Greg, when he said those things, that somehow this was like a doctrinal development amongst Christians, you know, something they didn't believe before. It sort of developed as a result of their contact with the Greeks and Neoplatonism and all those things. What were you thinking initially?
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Greg Sukert
Yeah, well, my first thought was Biblical Christianity is the antithesis of Greek thought. And that's why Paul preaches in First Corinthians that the Gospel is an offense to Jews and the Greeks. I mean, the gospel really offended everyone. And when you look at actually Latter Day Saint theology and you ask, what is this akin to you, actually. And then you look at, you look at Greek thought, like, what, what is Hayden talking about? Greek thought with Plato and the forms and matter being eternal. If you do a side by side comparison between Greek thought and Latter Day Saint theology and Greek thought and biblical Christianity, it's actually way closer to the Greek. Greek theology is a lot closer, play by play, to Mormon theology and biblical Christianity. And I think about, like God's being embodied, Is that not things like Hercules, right? Like Zeus being embodied? And actually, how did you know the Hercules story? How did Hercules earn his way to Godhead? Because he was semi divine is the Greek story of Hercules. But he had to accomplish some great acts in order to be made fully divine and to claim his, his name among the gods. And you, you think about that and I'm like, wait a minute, that sounds like something I know, right? That actually sounds a lot like Latter Day Saint theology where we're basically semi divine. You know, they say that we're of the same ontological nature as God, which
- [13:58]
Jeff Durbin
is same species, just.
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Greg Sukert
Same species, just such blasphemy, right? Because there's, there's one God and it's not us. And not only is that claim so offensive from a worship perspective that all of life is lived for the glory of one, the glory of God, but it's also offensive to just the nature of reality. Like, if you look at our daily life, we are nothing like God. Like, I cannot walk on water. I cannot heal the sick with the word. I cannot split the Red Sea. One of the things that I talked about with Hayden in our conversation that's coming up in an upcoming episode, I asked them, I said, look, man, like, you know, you say they like to say that, that, you know, we are divine embryos, that the acorn can't do the same thing as the oak tree. And I said, yeah, but an acorn grows just like a baby grows. And a baby, you know, may not immediately be able to build and design skyscrapers to fill cities, but as that baby progressively grows, you know, they could build little, like Legos, skyscrapers. And if you look at the nature of reality, we don't see humanity possessing anything like the nature of God. You know, I quoted Bruce Almighty. If you guys have seen that movie, there's a scene where Bruce Almighty, he parts the soup. And I said, look, Hayden, if we are divine beings, we should progressively see ourselves being able to do the things that are our divine Father does. He parted the Red Sea. Like, can you part the soup, Hayden? I don't think we can part the soup. Right. But that, that view of, of becoming progressively more like God by doing these great acts, it sounds a lot more like Latter Day Saint theology where you go make your covenants, you stay faithful to these covenants, and then you, you attain exaltation. And that's far more parallel with Greek thought than, than biblical Christianity is.
- [15:55]
Jeff Durbin
Yeah, the claim in itself is just so convoluted. So time passes and the Christian church was. Wants to engage with the Greek world and Platonic thought. So the Christian church, in order to do so, developed a theology that contradicts their theology. I don't get it. I mean, is that what Hayden is saying is that, you know, in their interaction with the Greeks and the Platonists and Neoplatonists, whatever the case may be, that the Christian church developed a system that literally contradicted their system in order to reach them? I mean, I don't understand exactly the claim that he's making there, but it's interesting because he's making, he's making an assertion that time goes on. We're talking. What did he mention the fifth century? He mentions, I think the fifth century. And time goes on. The Christian church develops this idea of God being immaterial, God being omnipresent. But isn't Hayden aware that there's a whole history called the Bible that existed long before this thought, and that you have the whole history of the Jews themselves and their understanding based upon the Torah and the Tanakh about God's nature, about God's omnipresence, about God's creative power, that this isn't something they developed in the fifth century. I mean, it seems like such an audacious and ignorant claim to make. I mean, honestly, I think Hayden is as ignorant as he is Mormon to make that sort of a claim that this is something that developed about God, that the Christians developed these ideas, and it was much later, because Christianity from the beginning has made the claim even of times where if Christian fathers, you know, 6th century century, 7th century or anything, have made mistakes, they've at least tried to root their theology in the Holy Scriptures themselves. And so the idea of God's creation out of nothing, the idea of God's being immaterial, God's being omnipresent, all of those are from the beginning being argued on the basis of the Bible. And so it's curious to me to make this sort of a claim. For example, God's omnipresence, Psalm 139 that I read at the beginning of the show. How does that Work with Mormonism. I mean the text is clear. Where shall I go from your spirit? That's the question. Where am I going to go from your spirit, God? Or where shall I flee from your presence, from your presence and your spirit. Where can I go to flee from where your presence is God? That's the question. Now. Now, mind you, Hayden and others like him decry the idea that God is omnipresent because their God is a big man. He has a body of tangible as man's flesh and bone, just like us. He's an exalted man. So they worship, which is a lot
- [18:42]
Greg Sukert
like, a lot like Zeus, which is far more like Greek thought, Greek theology than Christian theology.
- [18:48]
Jeff Durbin
Oh, and very much so. I mean even I don't want to get too far afield on this. But I mean even the idea of Platonism and Greek thought and these conceptions of God in creation, you have the demiurge that is creating out of chaos, chaotic pre existing matter. So there's pre existing matter in that world of thinking. This is not Christian thinking. This is what the Christians were fighting against, pre existing chaos matter. And the God of the demiurge forms out of that, this creation. What's that sound closer to Mormonism? And what is the Christian Church reacting against that kind of thinking when from the beginning the Christian church is rejecting the Greek mindset and rejecting Gnosticism from the very, very begin. The Gnostics had, you know, similar ideas and the Gnostics were the, were the arch enemies of the Christian Church. You see the Apostle John dealing with them, the Apostle Paul dealing with them, the early church. They were the enemies of the church. The Christian Church is revolting against that idea, not adopting it, not adopting it. It wasn't something new. They were revolting against it because it was contrary to the scriptures for over a thousand years. But the text says, go ahead.
- [19:59]
Greg Sukert
I was going to say, and Plato taught anamnesis, which is this idea that we existed, we had this pre existent life and that we chose, you know, our next life and we came here, but our memories are veiled. That's the word, anamnesis. And then our whole task is to now then escape from earth, back to the dwelling of the gods, to become God ourselves. And again, that's a lot more like Mormonism. And actually I just, I finished watching the show and it dawned on me, me. Have you guys seen Severance by any chance?
- [20:30]
Jeff Durbin
Yes.
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Greg Sukert
Okay, Mormonism is, Mormonism is severance. It's severance because you have these memories of what you held apparently in the Mormon story, we believed in Jesus, we loved Jesus, and that's the reason why we got these earthly bodies. But when we came to earth, we forgot about our love for Jesus. And to me, that actually sounds quite cruel. Cruel that at one point in my life, I was this pre existent being who loved Jesus, but now I've chosen to forget my love for him, to take on a body in hopes that I would love him again and maybe I won't. And that to me, is very cruel, where you actually sever yourself from your memories and hopes that you'll fall in love with the Jesus you once loved in the pre existent life. How is that fair at all? Because according to Mormon theology, you could end up in outer darkness, right? Because you have. Because you have a body. It means that you chose Jesus in the pre existent life according to the Mormon story. And if you use that body and you don't rediscover your love for Jesus, you could end up in outer darkness, whatever that is. I know Latter Day Saints are torn on that doctrine too.
- [21:36]
Jeff Durbin
They are.
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Greg Sukert
And that's like, whoa, that person loved Jesus in the preexistent life, severed themselves from their memories and did not regain that love of Jesus, and now they're in outer darkness. Like, how is that a good story?
- [21:46]
Jeff Durbin
Yeah, yeah. So the text says, if I ascend to heaven, you are there. Again, the question was, or where shall I flee from your presence? Now, Hayden doesn't like the idea that the Bible teaches God's omnipresence. He's present everywhere. But the text says, if I ascend to heaven, you are there. If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there. If I take the wings of the morning and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, even there your hand shall lead me and your right hand shall hold me. If I say, surely the darkness shall cover me and the light about me be night, even the darkness. Darkness is not dark to you, and the night is bright as the day, for darkness is as light with you. And how else could God communicate with clarity. Now here's the thing. Hayden doesn't believe in the perspicuity or clarity of scripture. Hayden doesn't believe that God can give. The Mormon God, according to Hayden, could not give an infallible revelation to fallible men. He couldn't pull that off. The Mormon God that Hayden believes in could not accomplish an infallible revelation. And of course, there's more to discuss in terms of was God for infallible as a man before he became a God, but we'll get there.
- [22:56]
Greg Sukert
But Jeff, can I, can I comment on that perspicuity thing real quick?
- [22:59]
Jeff Durbin
Yes, yes, we're gonna get, we're gonna get to it. Go ahead.
- [23:02]
Greg Sukert
I was thinking about this because Hayden had said, you know, that, that Latter Day Saints, they don't believe in the perspicuity of scripture. And I thought about that some more and I realized actually they, they do. They, they have to, because these missionaries come to people's doors and then they ask them, they, they will give them a Book of Mormon and ask them to read it alone. Well, if you're asking someone to read a text alone, then you are making the assumption that that person can understand the text in their own, in its own terms. And so the whole idea that writings can never be clear, that you need this infallible interpretator, which is, you know, to them, the current prophet, that completely goes against even their own missionary activity. The fact that they hand people a book and say read this and then pray over it means they do believe that writings can be given by God and can be clear enough from God to be understood on their own terms. Now my question is, do they believe that only the Book of Mormon has perspicuity? Because that seems to be the only book that they really seem to care to leave people to read and quote, unquote, hear the words of God from. But my point is they do actually believe that God can speak clearly through text on its own terms. That's why they give people Books of Mormon and walk away.
- [24:18]
Jeff Durbin
Yeah, and at that point, it's a doctrine of convenience. In other words, words, when the Bible says something that obviously militates against Mormon doctrine, when the Bible says something that contradicts the Mormon God or the Mormon Jesus or the Mormon Gospel or the Mormon life, then we can't believe in the perspicuity of Scripture and that God can speak clearly. That revelation is fallible, according to Hayden, because again, Hayden's God cannot, is not big enough to give an infallible revelation to fallible men. His God cannot pull it off. Hayden doesn't believe that God can do that. And of course Hayden Gods doesn't. Hayden, God doesn't exist. And so of course he can't. But, but it's convenience though, because when the Bible contradicts Hayden, Hayden says we can't trust that anyways. And God can't speak clearly, he can't communicate clearly. But of course, yes, you're exactly right, Greg. When more missionaries are going to door to door to hand Book of Mormons to people saying pray about this. God will speak to you through this at that point, that point of contact. Of course God can speak. And so goes the nature of man made religion. Religion is you have these internal inconsistencies where it just does not work. The idea of God's omnipresence Psalm 139:7 12 In Jeremiah 23 verses 23 through 24, God asks whether only he is only a nearby God and not also far away. And then he declares that no one can hide in secret places because he fills heaven and earth. So much for God's omnipresent presence, right? I mean, Jeremiah 23:23:24 seems clear enough in 1st Kings 8:27 Solomon's prayer at the temple dedication acknowledges that even the heavens themselves themselves cannot contain God, much less a physical building. And so we can go on and on with this. Amos 9:2 4 Proverbs 15:3. We can go on, but also we can speak when we get back from our commercial break on God being immaterial and then engage more with the conversation between Greg and Hayden. So stay with us everybody. If you're just getting on right now. Important conversations today. So much to share with you. So many tools to give to you as you engage with Latter Day Saints like Hayden or those who are influenced by Hayden. And so we just I'm very excited about today's show to stay with us, do all the things, do the likes, the shares, the subscribes, let people know about this episode. I will tell you that young Latter Day Saints do watch Apologia Studio and they are being impacted by it. So if you know Mormons in your life, share this content with them. Because God uses it to open the eyes of the blind and remove the dark, the darkness of Mormonism. He does that by his grace and by his spirit and so help us to get this message out. Stay with us. Quick commercial break. Be right back. 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And they bless Apologia Studios and help us to stay on the air and do all these programs with you. Don't forget. Also Ion Layer has added a glutathione patch as well. Know glutathione, the master antioxidant. Go check out the health benefits of glutathione. I'm doing this stuff anyways. It's blessed my life in tremendous ways. And so if you want to focus on your health, wellness and longevity, nothing better in my mind than ionlayer.com for your NAD and Glutathione treatments. Ionlayer.com don't forget to put Apologia in all caps in the coupon code. Welcome back everybody to Apologia Studios and Apologia Radio. We're talking today with Greg about his recent conversation with Mormon apologist Hayden Carroll. And we're going through some of the video that Greg has up on his channel right now at YouTube and it's under Greg Sukkert. And so go check that out when we're done here. So we're going to get into a little bit more of this, but I wanted to just start, at least start the conversations. I think it comes up a few times here on the nature of God. Hayden doesn't like what the Bible teaches about God's nature. You have to remember that Hayden is a Latter Day Saint. He believes Joseph Smith's a prophet, he believes Brigham Young's a prophet. And all, of course, the Mormon prophets and apostles are representatives of God and they have taught Hayden and other Mormons a different view of God. God was once a man as we are now. He's an exalted man who sits enthroned in yonder heavens. Hayden would have to believe what his own prophet taught with authority in the King Fallet discourse and of course in the sermon in the Grove. And that is that God has a body as tangible as man and that he says this. He says we've imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. He says, I will refute that idea and take away and do away the veil so that you may see. And he teaches that God himself was once as we are now and is an exalted man, a man who went through exaltation, who was not God from all eternity. Joseph Smith says, I will refute that idea. What idea? That God has been God from all eternity. Which puts him at odds immediately with the God of the Bible. Psalm 90, verse 2 says, says, from eternity into eternity, you are God. That's what the Bible says. And I think that's pretty clear. Hayden doesn't like the clarity of scripture, the perspicuity of Scripture. He doesn't think God can communicate with clarity. And so. But the Bible is clear. I mean, Jesus chastises people in Scripture for not knowing the Scriptures and being slow of heart to believe all that the Scriptures have spoken and calling them fools, foolish for not believing and understanding what the Scriptures say. So according to Jesus, and I want to have his view on, on God's word. According to Jesus, God can speak with clarity, and God can speak in such a way as that human beings are morally culpable for not receiving his words. But Hayden doesn't believe in the biblical God. He rejects the biblical God. And he believes God's a big man who has a body of flesh and bone as tangible as man's, who sits enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret. Joseph. Joseph Smith says, and Joseph says, you've got to learn to become God yourselves, the same way all gods have done before you, including God the Father, who was once a man who became God one day who was not God from all eternity. Joseph Smith refutes that idea. And so Hayden doesn't like the immaterial aspect of what the Bible teaches about God's nature. But of course, we can simplify this. Jesus says in John 5:24, he says, God is spirit. God is spirit. And then Jesus later defines spirit. Okay, so Jesus says God is spirit. I think that's clear. And then he later defines spirit after his resurrection in the upper room, when he's talking to Thomas, what does he say? He says, handle me and see, a spirit does not. Does not have flesh and bones as you see me have. All right, so is God immaterial, according to Hayden, because of Joseph Smith and other Mormon prophets and apostles? Well, no. God is a man, flesh and bone, tangible as man's, just like us. That's the great secret. But Jesus didn't hold to that perspective. He says, God is spirit, and spirit does not have flesh and bone as you see me have. And so we can go on for days with this. But you need to understand, when Hayden's making these claims, he's denigrating the biblical God God denigrating the scriptures. Because ultimately Hayden doesn't believe God can communicate with clarity and he doesn't believe that the Mormon God, his God can give an infallible clear revelation through fallible men. His God's not big enough to do that. And so let's go on here to the next point and issues with that.
- [32:50]
Hayden Carroll
But we would reject that whole notion that we would say came out of that, that later non apostolic age to try to allow the gospel to become more palatable to the Greeks that they were trying to proselyte to.
- [33:04]
Jeff Durbin
Okay, so he absolutely is saying that. He's saying that the Greeks and their philosophies and their worldview, they had their perspective. And he's saying that many centuries later the Christian church tailored their message and their doctrine to make it more palatable to the Greeks. And he mentions Platonism, I think he says Neoplatonism. But please explain to us how the Christians were making their message more palatable to the Greeks by literally quote or the allegation is they developed doctrines that contradicted the Greek system. Does that make sense? They develop doctrines, the Christian church develops doctrines to make it more palatable to the Greeks. But those doctrines without question are in complete conflict. Contradiction to the Greek worldview and idea of a pre existence the ideas of a demiurge forming creation, making things from pre existing chaotic matter. Explain that logical contradiction that the Christian church developed these doctrines to be more palatable to the Greeks. When the system itself rejects what the Greeks said. I'm confused about the that I truly truly am.
- [34:22]
Hayden Carroll
And we would accept our position would essentially be God has revealed his nature through modern revelation that he has restored what he actually is in that here's the problem.
- [34:32]
Jeff Durbin
I'll let you guys speak to this. He's revealed his nature. He's given revelation about his about his nature and restored it. But here's the problem. Hayden and other Mormon apologists like you, have you forgotten that God's revelation is a matter of historical, historical record and history and that this revelation from God in history that God said that he preserved and protected and he would forever. This existed long before Joseph Smith and Brigham Young and Orson Pratt and Orson Hyde and Joseph Fielding Smith and Charles and all of the modern Mormon prophets and apostles. So when you say God's given revelation about his nature through modern prophets and apostles, we say as Christians, you're late to the game. You are late to the game because God has already given that revelation as a matter of history and record and was here long before Joseph Smith got Here.
- [35:28]
Luke Bear
I want to say this respectfully, but this is, this is why I struggle with, with Hayden and guys kind of in his camp is he just kind of throws out these soundbite claims as if they're facts. And you're like, you just spent 10 or 15 minutes saying, nope, that's absolutely not.
- [35:43]
Jeff Durbin
It's literally the opposite.
- [35:44]
Luke Bear
Right? It's literally. Yeah. So you just throw these out as if they're truth and just move. I was like, well, time out, time out. Can we talk about those things? And it's just, it's honestly funny to me that he's accusing our position of coming around in the fifth century. And it's like, dude, you're following a guy that literally made up stuff 200 years ago, literally made up a language. And I would even argue that Hayden's position, his Mormonism now is vastly different than Joseph Smith's Mormonism. It's just. And it continues to grow and like, be very subjective and, and so, I mean, that claim is just, it's funny to me. But, Greg, I'll let you comment.
- [36:24]
Greg Sukert
Yeah, I, I really did. I loved my time with Hayden. You know, I just. Anytime the Lord opens up an opportunity to present the Jesus of the old New Testament, you know, I'm going to run, run headfirst into that opportunity. But my heart for him is, is. It hurts because the God whom he. He ultimately trusts in and is a false God, obviously, who's not there, who can't actually help him. But self, admittedly, God is weak in his view. You know, God is embodied. He can't be everywhere at once. He's finite in that sense. And, you know, that's just so against the God that we cast our hearts on. I think about Psalm 46:1, where it says God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble. And what an amazing promise that is to us, that because of God's omnipresence, that he is. He is pure light, that he is pure goodness, that he has always been God, from everlasting to everlasting, you are God. That he dwells everywhere. And because he dwells everywhere, he is, he is both inside of time and outside of time, upholding the universe by the word of his power. That, that. That he is actually a present help to us no matter where we are. And right now, our. Our church, Central Church in Collierville, Tennessee, we're having our vacation Bible school, and we're going through Psalm 23. The kids are actually memorizing Psalm 23. And I think about this beautiful Psalm. This timeless psalm that has been around far longer than Hayden and myself, far longer than Joseph Smith and Latter Day Saint theology. But think about how. How Psalm 23 presents God as a present shepherd who walks with us no matter where we are. I think about Psalm 23, verse 4. Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me. Your rod and your staff, they comfort me. This means God is not some embodied man who is far away. No, God is Spirit according to John 4. And God as this all powerful, pure light, righteous spirit is here for us no matter where we are in the universe. I mean, you read it earlier, Jeff, where shall I go to escape your presence? It doesn't matter if I'm in the heavens or in the depths of Sheol, you are there. And that for us as Christians, is such a comfort. And that's ultimately who I want Hayden to run to because. Because only that God is the true and living God, and only that God can be a very present help in our weakness and in our time of need, because that God is actually all present to help us no matter where we are in life.
- [39:09]
Jeff Durbin
Amen. Here we go.
- [39:10]
Hayden Carroll
Is that he. Ontologically, there's no gap between us and God. We would say that, to put it in simple terms, like God is a human. Like, he's. Like he's not. Again, this like, omnipresent, slight, like, thing or force or whatever you might, however you might describe it, he's actually a
- [39:27]
Greg Sukert
person and he was a sinful person.
- [39:30]
Jeff Durbin
And we of course believe that God is tri. Personal. We believe there are three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. So there's a little bit of a challenge I have with even making sense of what he said there. We believe that God is human. That's the main point he's making there, that God is a human. God is a human who through exaltation similar to us, became exalted to the status of God one day. And so you're hearing it correctly. Hayden is saying that God the Father, his origins are that he was once a man and that he is human. And Hayden rejects what the scripture clearly teaches about God being the invisible God, about God being spirit and spirit, not having flesh and bone as you see me have. I mean, that's devastating and that's clear. And Hayden had to, you know, stand on his head to get around those texts. And so that's, of course where you say, wow, you know, like, that's just your interpretation. And, you know, I don't believe in the clarity of Scripture anyways. And I don't believe that we can. That I don't believe that revelation right there is infallible period because fallible men gave it. And so there are problems in abundance with Hayden's position here at one point
- [40:40]
Greg Sukert
or is still or how does that work?
- [40:42]
Hayden Carroll
Yeah, some people believe that there are
- [40:44]
Greg Sukert
different models, wisdom makes mistakes or.
- [40:47]
Hayden Carroll
No, we, I would say, I would be comfortable saying that all Latter Day Saints who know anything about our doctrine, I, I've never heard that any, I've never heard anyone say that God today is sinful. But there are some theories that came out of some of the later sermons of Joseph Smith like months before he died where some people believe that he was once a man just like we were in, in not in a non exalted state.
- [41:09]
Greg Sukert
That's the famous couplet from
- [41:12]
Jeff Durbin
some people believe that God was once a man. Some people believe. And this is where I struggle. So I'm happy with the moments where Hayden's very honest and you know, he talks about God similar to what his apostles and prophets have said. You know, clearly that God is growing in knowledge. You know, that God grew to the status of God one day and those sorts of things. I'm happy about that. But when he says some people think, some people think that's not true. It's not a matter of some people think like it's just, it's, it's a, it's a part of Mormon theology. Some people hold to this view. No, I'm sorry, we shouldn't have any respect for this kind of sophistry. Joseph Smith, in the King Follett Discourse, his most famous sermon, he says, I will prove that the world is wrong by showing what God is. I'm going to inquire after God for I want you all to know him and to be familiar with Him. And if I am bringing you to a knowledge of him, all persecutions against me ought to cease. You will then know that I am his servant, for I speak as one having authority. Now here's Joseph Smith, the first founder, president and prophet of Mormonism, teaching authoritatively. So this is not a matter of, you know, Joseph Smith's mere opinion. This sort of a side issue. Here's Joseph, Joseph Smith, the originator of Mormonism, speaking with authority according to his own mouth on the issue of inquiring after God. And I want you all to know God. And so that's what I'm speaking about. He says this. I will go back to the beginning before the world was to show what kind of being God is. What sort of being was God in the beginning? Open your ears and hear all ye ends of the earth. For I'm going to prove it to you by the by Bible and tell you the designs of God in relation to the human race and why he interferes with the affairs of men. God himself was once as we are now, and it is an exalted man and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret. And he says, he says, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man, in form, like yourselves, and all the person, image and very form as a man. For Adam was created, created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instructions from one, and walked, talked and conversed with him as one man talks and communes with another. And so Joseph Smith, of course, goes on with what I ever quoted, with what I had already quoted to everybody here, where Joseph Smith says things like, in the beginning, the head of the gods called a council of the gods, and they came together and concocted and prepared a plan to create, create the world and to people it. Joseph Smith in this famous discourse, does not allow it to be unclear, of course, because he's speaking as one, according to him who has authority that God was once a man as we are now, and we've imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea and take away, and do away the veil so that you may see you've got to learn to become God yourselves, the same way all gods have done before you. So this is, Listen, this, this is not. Let's be honest with ourselves here. This is not. Well, some people believe in Mormonism. Some people believe that God was once a man who went through exaltation. No, no, Joseph Smith taught as a prophet with authority, clarity about that. And of course we can do a whole episode on this, the evolution of the theology of Joseph Smith early on, yes, in the Book of Mormon, you've got statements of monotheism. Of course, he's in New England, he's surrounded by Christianity. Christianity is in the atmosphere. He can't be coming with polytheism up front. And right away Mormonism has clear statements of monotheism and God being the eternal God. And then Joseph Smith's theology evolves over time. And he lied to the Mormon people, lied to the Mormon people, People just straight up lied to them. In the Sermon on the Grove where he says, I will preach on the plurality of gods, I wish to say, I have Always and in all conversations, in all contexts. He says, I've preached on the plurality of gods. It's been preached by me and the elders of the church for 15 years. Lie, lie. And all someone had to do then is just pick up the Book of Mormon and say, joseph, this is what you presented to us in 1830. It doesn't match what you're saying now. In 1844, Joseph Smith's theology evolved from monotheism, and he couldn't even get this trinity right in the Book of Mormon. He. It's, it's modalism and it's just a mess. But then later on, it turns into polytheism, the idea of many gods, and you got to learn to become gods yourselves. And so this is just. I, I wish at these points, Hayden, be. It would be a little more clear and honest.
- [46:06]
Greg Sukert
Absolutely. As God now is. As man once as man is, God
- [46:12]
Jeff Durbin
made me become as God is. Yeah.
- [46:14]
Greg Sukert
What, what's the couplet?
- [46:15]
Hayden Carroll
As man now is God once was. Yeah.
- [46:18]
Greg Sukert
Like what? Why can't I say this? I. I read.
- [46:21]
Jeff Durbin
So.
- [46:21]
Hayden Carroll
So there are different competing camps theologically on, you know what that looks like. What's the origin of God?
- [46:26]
Greg Sukert
Yeah.
- [46:27]
Hayden Carroll
But unfortunately, the church doesn't have a set doctrine on that.
- [46:34]
Jeff Durbin
Not true.
- [46:36]
Luke Bear
That's what's frustrating.
- [46:37]
Jeff Durbin
Not true. And see, listen, here is why. And Greg, you failed to jump in here after this. Here is why I think there's so many different sects of Mormonism, because you have Mormons that read Joseph, they read Brigham Young, they want to be faithful Mormons, and they realize where the modern church in Salt Lake is going is not consistent with early Mormonism and the teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. They read those men, we have their writings. They go through them. They see things like Brigham Young saying the only men who become gods are even the sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy. And Brigham Young, their own prophet, saying that if you continue to deny the practice of polygamy, you'll be damned. And so a faithful Mormon today reads their prophet. They're told that this restoration is built on the foundation of prophets and apostles. Here's my prophet telling me that I will be damned if I deny polygamy, the practice of polygamy. And he's saying that the only way to become a God one day is to be a polygamist myself. And so, of course, what do those Mormons do? They create little communities where they practice polygamy. And that story according to the commandments of their own prophets. And apostles, they're the faithful ones. They're being faithful. And Hayden says, you know, there's, you know, there's disagreement amongst Mormons today as to the origins of God. God, yeah. Yeah. Isn't it interesting, isn't it interesting that you have men like Jacob who, during the debate with Dr. James White, he wouldn't just admit what the prophets have taught regarding God being an exalted man and the issue of infinite regress that Mormons, before these guys came along, the only thing I ever heard from Mormons was that God had a father who had a father who had a father who had a father who had a father. It's this infinite regress idea. No Mormon I ever talked to had a problem with that. And now these modern Mormons, being influenced by a lot of the philosophers and things coming out of byu, are saying, maybe there's another way. But listen, here's the thing. Here's what I challenge you to do. If you're watching this right now and you're a Latter Day Saint or you're a Christian, just do this. You have free access to it. It's just a beautiful thing. I used to have to carry this stuff in my backpack outside the Mormon Temple for many, many years to make sure Mormons can see it. You have free access to it right now on the Internet. Go and look up the full text of the King Fallout Discourse and then follow that up with reading the full text of the sermon in the grove. Read those two. Read them from the Mormon prophet Joseph Smith. And you, after you read those, you tell me if you think that it's unclear. It is very clear. And if the Mormon today says something like, well, you know, I know I don't have to believe everything Joseph Smith said was from God. Well, thank you for admitting that you are not in the line of biblical prophets and apostles. Because I'm not allowed to look at the writings of Peter in Scripture and say, nah. Or if Isaiah says, thus saith the Lord, I. I don't as a Christian go, nah, just a fallible dude who can understand this stuff anyways, right? You're not allowed to do that with Christian. With Christianity, you can't do that with the Bible. With the Bible. It's not consistent. And you know, know it is not consistent. Gentlemen, we're brought out of time here for a quick break. Greg, any. Any comments before we go to our break?
- [49:58]
Greg Sukert
Yeah, I was just gonna say that I just. It makes me sad from a worship perspective because we think about, you know, what moves us as Christians to worship God. And it's his transcendence. It's his. It's the reality that he is so unlike us, that he is infinite in his majesty and his holiness and his goodness and his. And his righteousness and his justice and his love. And it's beholding the majesty and the transcendence of God that we're moved to worship. And one of the things that just perplexes me so much about Latter Day Saint theology is they really want to remove that transcendence. They really want to make God like us. And when they make God like us, it's not in the beautiful way of the Incarnation where God adds to Himself humanity, to redeem humanity and to draw near to humanity in our, our sinfulness and in our shame and in our weakness. No, they, they literally want to worship someone who is akin to us, like potentially a sinner in his past life, right, who went through a series of steps to be exalted Himself. And, and that just when you remove the transcendence of God, you actually remove your ability to fall on your face and worship because you're just, you're just bowing down to yourself at that point. And that, that just makes me so sad because that's not what we were made for. We were made to bow down on our faces and worship. And, and the only way to do that, in truth, the way that we were created, is to bow down to the transcendent God who is nothing like us, but who is eternal in majesty.
- [51:25]
Jeff Durbin
That's right. So, and I'll end with this point and we'll come right back after this break. Mormonism is without question a version of the sin and the fall described in Romans Chapter one. Let me just consider it. We typically read Romans one this way, for the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For that, what can be known about God is plain to them because God has shown it to them for his invisible attributes, namely his eternal power and divine nature. By the way, invisible attributes, his nature invisible. He doesn't like the immaterial aspect there, but have been clearly perceived ever since the creation of the world in things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to Him. But they became futile in their thinking and their foolish hearts were darkened, claiming to be wise, they became fools. And here it is. Watch, it says, and exchange the glory of the immortal God for Images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. Now we tend to read that in, in the light of the paganism that the apostle Paul is confronting, right? Oh, we know what that is. Like the Egyptian gods and all, you know, all the Philistines gods and everything else, the Greek gods, like, yeah, they create their own versions of themselves and they worship those things. And we think about paganism in all the stories of the Greek gods and everything else and we go, okay, that's what people do. They create idols. They worship things that look like them and creatures and creeping things and all the rest. But Mormonism is a version of this. It takes Christian language and it just goes right into the sin of Romans 1. And people don't want to worship the true God and so what do they do? They create a God that looks like them. And that's what Mormonism is. Mormonism is Romans 1. Suppression of truth, exchange of God for an idol. And yet it's the exchange of God for an idol with Christian veneer, Christian language, Christian costume, Chris, all of that. But it's just Romans 1. What is it? It's switching God for something that looks like me, a mortal man. And so there, God's a big man. Exactly as Romans 1 says people do in the fall. They suppress the truth about God. They don't want the true God so they make one that looks like them. That's, that's Mormonism. So quick, quick commercial break. We will be right back. If you're new here, right now, just getting on, do the like and the share thing, all the subscribe stuff. We'll be right back. Thanks for joining us today.
- [53:52]
Luke Bear
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- [54:35]
Greg Bonson
Hey Bond. Senu live is finally here. Join me on June 29th for our very first live session available exclusively to all Access members at Apologia Studios as You work through the incredible lectures of Dr. Greg Bonson, you're bound to have questions about apologetics, theology, philosophy and the Christian faith. That's exactly what bonsing you live is for. Once a month, I'll be hosting an interactive live stream stream where you could engage directly with me, ask your questions and dive deeper into the topics that you're studying. Whether you're new to presuppositional apologetics or looking to sharpen your understanding of the Christian worldview, this is your opportunity to learn, to interact and to grow alongside a community of like minded believers. So Join me on June 29th for our first Bonson U Live exclusively at apologiastudios.com welcome back to Apology Radio.
- [55:24]
Luke Bear
Here comes Pastor Jeff. Take care of some business.
- [55:28]
Jeff Durbin
Man, it's hot in here. You feel it?
- [55:29]
Luke Bear
I got a fan underneath.
- [55:30]
Jeff Durbin
Yeah, I need to get a fan underneath me because by the way, everyone, just so you know, we're in the studio now and one of the things we got to correct here is the AC situation. When it's running, you'll hear it in the audio, but if it's not running, we're gonna burn.
- [55:41]
Luke Bear
You'll see it on our faces.
- [55:43]
Jeff Durbin
You'll see it in our faces and our armpits. It gets hot. It's Arizona and it's already summer.
- [55:47]
Luke Bear
So a couple super chats real quick.
- [55:49]
Jeff Durbin
Okay.
- [55:50]
Luke Bear
Mark's Spence.
- [55:51]
Jeff Durbin
Mark Spence. Living waters. Mark, I love you.
- [55:54]
Luke Bear
Thank you, brother. Appreciate that.
- [55:55]
Greg Sukert
Love you, Mark.
- [55:56]
Luke Bear
Generous. And then I saw art as well. Thank you. Always.
- [56:01]
Jeff Durbin
Thank you.
- [56:02]
Luke Bear
Pleasure, Mr. Durbin. Thank you, man.
- [56:03]
Jeff Durbin
Thank you so much for the blessing. Very much. Okay, let's get right back to it. Everyone here is more. Again if you guys are just joining us, this is on Greg Sukar Chan. It's S U K E R T and it is, is the Mormon God the same as the Christian God? That's the video we're watching now. It's about 30, so seven minutes long. And we're going to continue right now.
- [56:20]
Hayden Carroll
So you'll see competing models.
- [56:22]
Greg Sukert
But you'd see how that would be like to me, very shocking. Oh absolutely. Like God made mistakes. God at least at one point sin. Because you know our view of God in scripture and again we the question is what is scripture? You know, that's a whole, whole nother conversation. But I think about like First John. Well, just the book of First John. God is light and in him is no darkness at all. You know, that he's pure light. That, that actually like moral law is actually based on his character. You know, the reason why lying is wrong is because. Because God by nature is a God of truth. The reason why unfaithfulness is wrong is because God by nature is a God of faithfulness. The reason why hatred is wrong is because God by nature, first John says God is love, you know, and so that like hearing, oh, God was once a sinful man is like quite shocking to like, what we would consider to be the old and new testamen presentation of God.
- [57:17]
Hayden Carroll
Sure, yeah. No, I have. I mean, it's just as shocking as you saying that God is immaterial, spaceless, timeless, matterless. To us, it's like the two models can't overlap at all. And so.
- [57:27]
Jeff Durbin
And why is that? Why is that? It's because Hayden rejects the biblical worldview. He rejects the authority of scripture, the perspicuity of scripture, the clarity of Scripture. He rejects that God can speak in infallibly through fallible men. His God again isn't big enough to do that. And so his shock over God being immaterial is not that scripture doesn't teach it, it's that he doesn't believe those texts that do teach it. Christians have from the beginning responded to heresies and developed doctrine on the basis of the Scriptures. And so the view of Christians based upon the Bible about God's immaterial nature, that God is spirit and God's omnipresent, these are things that were developed on the basis of scriptures which ultimately Hayden, when pressed, rejects. That's the key issue. That's the key issue.
- [58:23]
Hayden Carroll
I don't, I don't see why. Because I, I. You've probably heard of infinite regress. The infinite. Yeah.
- [58:32]
Greg Sukert
Where did this all start?
- [58:33]
Hayden Carroll
Yeah. God. Did God have a God without a God? Or is he the first God? Or is there a finite regression?
- [58:38]
Greg Sukert
And that's, that's why, like, God's internality is like. And it's the, it's the Genesis view that in the beginning, whatever, you know, beginning of creation, like God just was like time is a construct that he made creation.
- [58:50]
Hayden Carroll
Yeah, we wouldn't say that. That's in the book, in the Genesis.
- [58:52]
Greg Sukert
Right. I've heard you say you, you regret, you, you deny creation ex nihilo. But you know, I read like Psalm 33, 6, and it says, you know, by the word of your mouth, the heavens were made, and by the. Or by the by, by your word the heavens were made, and by the breath of your mouth, mouth, the. The host of heavens were filled, you know.
- [59:09]
Hayden Carroll
Yeah, but my position would be that you're imposing third Maybe even fourth century doctrine from the councils and the non apostolic age into the text. Like when the text was written, it didn't mean me.
- [59:20]
Greg Sukert
So you're saying that's Greek thought?
- [59:22]
Hayden Carroll
Yes, potentially.
- [59:24]
Greg Sukert
So let's talk, huh?
- [59:27]
Jeff Durbin
Did he just say that creation ex nihilo is Greek thought? Did I hear that right? Right.
- [59:34]
Greg Sukert
Yep, that's right.
- [59:35]
Hayden Carroll
Yep.
- [59:36]
Jeff Durbin
Creation.
- [59:37]
Greg Sukert
Funny, because the fact that God created everything from the power of his word is actually the most offensive thing to the Greeks imaginable.
- [59:46]
Jeff Durbin
And he said, I got to go back and hear this again. I'm sorry, we're going to review this one more time. I want to make sure I'm responding correctly to him and the man's actual statements, both, you know.
- [59:55]
Hayden Carroll
Yeah, but my position would be that you're imposing third, maybe even fourth century doctrine from the councils in the apostolic age into the text. Like when the text was written, it didn't mean.
- [60:05]
Greg Sukert
So you're saying that's Greek thought.
- [60:07]
Hayden Carroll
Yes, potentially.
- [60:09]
Jeff Durbin
So let's talk that God is eternal and that God created from nothing is Greek thought. It's the opposite of Greek thought. It's the opposite of Greek thought. It's in opposition to Greek thought. Greek thought was opposed by the Christian Church and the Gnostics taught things similar to that and the Christian Church rejected that. What does this mean? Third or fourth century? It's interesting. Let's examine this a little bit here. I think it's important that we do because we're talking about ex nihilo, creation from nothing, God being eternal, the creator of all things. He says this is developed in the third or fourth century Tree.
- [60:52]
Luke Bear
Yeah.
- [60:53]
Jeff Durbin
This is amazing to me. I wonder. I'd like for Hayden to answer the question, what courses on church history have you taken? Or let me ask you this way, not a course. What books on church history have you read? Series volumes. Whose? Schaff? Who? Needham. Have you read any of them or have you just been proof texting different, different things that you've quote mined throughout church history that you've gotten from other Mormon apologists. Have you actually read this stuff? Because you're making claims that are literally the opposite. And so it's, it's, it's curious to me, but let's just do this while, while we're on the subject, the issue of creation out of nothing. Now of course we'll go to the Scriptures to talk about this, but he's making the claim that These are like 3rd and 4th century additions to doctrine that are to be more palatable to the Greeks that's just so curious to me. How about Hermas in the shepherd? This vision in this 80. About 80. 80 is. Is when AD 80 not 80. 80 quote God who dwells in the heavens and made out of nothing the things that exist. That's 80 God made out of nothing the things that exist. Another one from the apology Aristides quote corruptible and changeable things produced out of the non existent by him that is truly God. God who is incorruptible and unchangeable and invisible. Interesting. That's an AD 140. Here's Christians believing in 8140 that God is what Unchangeable and invisible and incorruptible. If you just had his perspective it's a full refutation that the early church, you know held to something different and this developed over time. Theophilus of Antioch 1811 what great thing were it if God made the world out of existing matter? Even a human artist makes of it whatever he pleases. But the power of God is made evident in this that he makes whatever he pleases out of what does not exist. AD181 Theophilus of Antioch says further in 181 and first they the prophets of God taught us with one consent that God made all all things out of nothing. For nothing was co eternal with God but He being his own place and wanting nothing and existing before the ages will to make man by whom he might be known. Irenaeus of Lions against heresies in AD189 said quote men indeed are not able to make something from nothing, but only from existing material. God however is greater than men first of all in this that when nothing existed beforehand hand he called into existence the very material for his creation. Now we're going to do more in a second here but let's, let's play them a little more because there's more important messages from the early church for
- [64:11]
Greg Sukert
Hayden that for a second because we're on the topic of God. So Greek thought, Neoplatonic thought, so Platonis he was very much into obviously places Plato. Plato had a view that actually we were all pre existent, right? And Plato's view was that we go through this state of I think the word is upon now what is the word? It's the. It's the word for like the Greek word for like forgetting. We go through this like veil where we forget our memories and then we have to relearn and ascend back to. To Godhood which to me actually sounds a lot more Aligned with.
- [64:56]
Hayden Carroll
Yeah, but the the Latter Day Saint conception of doctrine and how it came about was not influenced by Platonic ideas at all.
- [65:01]
Greg Sukert
Right. But you have to see the similarities of like pre existence and in fact Plato believed that the world was not that the world is basically like matter that already existed which is also the Latter Day Saint view of the world. So I actually view and the early
- [65:15]
Hayden Carroll
Church's view is that matter is eternal. Justin Martyr believed that that God fashioned out of by the early Church Fathers.
- [65:20]
Greg Sukert
Well like
- [65:24]
Jeff Durbin
he, he said the early Church's view
- [65:31]
Greg Sukert
that already existed which is also the Latter Day Saint view of the world. So I actually view and the early
- [65:35]
Hayden Carroll
Church's view is that matter is eternal. Justin Martyr believed that that God.
- [65:41]
Jeff Durbin
So Hayden went on record again with a serious blunder which shows his ignorance. He just said it's the early Church's view that matter is eternal. I just read to you a number of quotes that contradict that. So we have to, we have to go through these. In Tertullian in his apology197 the object of our worship is the one God who by the word of his command he brought forth forth from nothing for the glory of His Majesty. This whole construction of elements, bodies and spirits. More From Tertullian in 200 AD this is against the heretics. He says quote we believe there is only one God and none other besides Him. Again in contradiction to Mormonism the creator of the world who brought forth all things out of nothing through His Word. Really. So the, the. The early Church believed that God fashioned all these things out of pre existent matter matter. That's what the early Church believed. So he mentions Justin Martyr. So they quote mine Justin Martyr and they say look, here's a person who taught something that sounds similar to us. And so the early Church believed that. How much of the early Church do you need to hear to understand that they did in fact not believe universally at all what you believe and what you teach. And more From Tertullian and 203 AD he is the unique God for this reason alone. Alone that he is the sole God. Mormonism doesn't believe that and he is the sole God for this reason alone that nothing existed along with Him. All else is after him because all else is from him and from him because they are created out of nothing. Even Origin in 225 says first that there is one God who created and arranged all things and who when nothing existed called all things into into existence. Hippolytus and discourse in the End of the World says You are he who made all things out of nothing. And again, AD217 same. On the first day God made what he had made out of nothing. But on the other days he did not make out of nothing, but out of what he had made on the first day. And so Hayden makes the claim that that was the early Church's view. His view. The early church viewed it this way. Complete ignorance. Not true. And un. And I would challenge you, Hayden, and I think you know that this is true. You have not read the Fathers, you have not read church history. You have gotten these quotations perhaps from other Mormon apologists in a book somewhere. It's a quote, mine. You don't know history. You don't know the Fathers, you don't know church history. And you pretend that you do and you make these wild claims publicly about something that the early church believed, when in fact, fact you don't know what the early church taught and believed clearly. Because nobody would make the audacious claim that you just did had they actually studied church history. Greg.
- [68:37]
Greg Sukert
And all, all these guys are commenting on is just scripture. I mean John 1, that the, the, the famous Christology passage of John 1, in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him and without him was not anything made. That was made.
- [69:01]
Jeff Durbin
Yep.
- [69:02]
Greg Sukert
That means without God nothing exists.
- [69:05]
Jeff Durbin
Yeah.
- [69:05]
Greg Sukert
And that's why Hebrews 1 tells us that he upholds the world by the word of his power. Yeah, he upholds the world. The world doesn't uphold itself.
- [69:13]
Jeff Durbin
Yeah, the world's not eternal, Greg. Good point too. In that passage you're quoting from John there is important. Specifically John is talking about Jesus there, specifically Jesus there. And that does not match the Mormon view of the pre existence and pre existing matter that God shapes out of and those sorts of things. And it does not match the Mormon view of Jesus being a spirit brother alongside Lucifer.
- [69:33]
Luke Bear
Exactly.
- [69:34]
Jeff Durbin
If g. If Satan is a thing that was made or if, if any of this is something that was made, it says that Jesus did it. Jesus did it. Which of course if you read John chapter 1, verse 1, Jesus always existent from all eternity with the Father prosthon theon face to face or toward the Father, an intimate relationship with the Father and Jesus being fully God, the Creator of all things. You can keep going though. Greg, did you have more verses for us?
- [70:01]
Greg Sukert
Yeah, I was going to say. And it doesn't match our story. Right. Because the Latter Day Saint story of our existence is that we are eternal spirit creatures who always existed. We just existed in and of ourselves. And that says creature wouldn't even be a appropriate word for us in Mormon theology. But that's not how the Bible describes man's origins. I just love how Scripture tells us how Adam came into being. In Genesis 2:7, then the Lord God formed the man from the dust, the man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life. And then it says this and the man became. Became a living creature. Creature not. There was this living being who existed prior to creation and then took on a body according to this plan of God. No. Adam came into existence when God breathed life into him. And that's how, that's how Job talks about his existence. I love the book of Job because Job comes face to face with his finiteness. He confesses in Job 10 that God made him like clay, that he was made from dust, and to dust he will return. Return. But in job 33, 4, he says, the Spirit of God has made me and the breath of the Almighty gives me life. Now if we are eternal beings, that means we have life in and of ourselves apart from God. But that's not how the Bible describes the nature of man. That in God because of God, in him we live and we have our being. It's God, God who makes us. It's God who gives us the breath of life. We have no life in and of ourself eternally. We come into existence because God made us and breathe his spirit of life into us.
- [71:46]
Jeff Durbin
Right? And you know, we're talking about a pre existent or pre existent matter. I would think that we can refer to matter as a thing. And all that's in the pre existence as a thing. And whatever there happens to be, it's a thing. The text says Colossians 1:16. I mean not just the scripture that Greg gave us from John chapter 1. Colossians 1:16 says, for by him all things were created in heaven and on earth, ready for this, Visible and invisible. Whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities, all things were created through him and for him. Is there a better, more clear, clear way for God to say it?
- [72:29]
Luke Bear
But the early church fathers didn't believe.
- [72:32]
Jeff Durbin
But you can show that they believed exactly what the Bible taught on this matter. Again, I'm gonna read it to you again because you need to hear this. For by him all things were created. What things? All things in heaven and on earth. Visible and invisible. Even the immaterial. All right. Whether thrones or dominions or rulers, or authorities. All things were created through him, and for him. Revelation Revelation 4:11 says, worthy are you, O our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power. For you created all things, and by your will they existed and were created. Isaiah 44:24 Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb. I am the Lord, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself. Psalm 90, verse 2. Before the mountains were brought forth, wherever he had formed the earth and the world, from everlasting to everlasting. Everlasting, you are God. God has been God for all eternity, and he created all things, whether they are visible or invisible. First Corinthians 8, verse 6. Yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. Ephesians 3 and verse 9, God, who created all things. There's no question here. This isn't an issue of why the text is unclear or it's muddy in some way. The real issue here is that Hayden and others like him simply do not believe the Bible. They reject the Bible as infallible. They are on record saying that they do not believe that the Mormon God is big enough or powerful enough or mighty enough to deliver to fallible creatures an infallible revelation. They do not believe that. And so therein lies. The problem is you've got Joseph Smith, the false prophet of Mormonism, his story coming into collision with the Bible and Hayden and men like him are doing what they can to try to make the two messages work together and they just simply do not. Well, we can go for days on this, but hopefully that will demonstrate enough that if you are a latter day Saint listening to Hayden, I would encourage you to recognize, and we've done this over numerous programs, that Hayden makes many claims that in in fact turn out to not be true. Hayden demonstrates that he does not know church history, he does not know the Fathers, he does not know the Bible, and he's willing to go on record publicly and to make claims about church history and the Bible that are just patently false. Not true. He does not know his history, he does not know the Bible. And so that really is the issue. It's not a question of whether the Bible is clear or God has been able to communicate clearly on these issues. It's that Hayden ultimately revealed reject Scripture in in favor of Joseph Smith, the prophet of Mormonism and other prophets and apostles like him. But here's the issue. Even though he does accept them as prophets and apostles, he doesn't believe that even their words can be taken infallibly. He doesn't even believe that God can. He says he rejects the perspicuity of scripture. He which just means simply this, the clarity of scripture, clarity that God can communicate clear clearly. He doesn't accept that. And so who's the ultimate interpreter? Who's the final word and standard? Well, Hayden, I mean, ultimately when you're talking to him, it's what he accepts or rejects or whatever because God's not communicating a way where he can understand. We can't trust that ultimately there's no certainty with Hayden, there's no certainty in Mormonism because they reject the ultimacy of scripture. Greg. So more is coming, right?
- [76:12]
Greg Sukert
Right. More is coming.
- [76:14]
Jeff Durbin
More is coming.
- [76:14]
Greg Sukert
The next part is dropping Saturday and I think it's a seven part conversation.
- [76:19]
Luke Bear
Oh, wow.
- [76:20]
Greg Sukert
Join. Join the ride.
- [76:22]
Jeff Durbin
All right, well, hopefully we'll be able to have you on again and go through some more of this. I think these are valuable conversations to have. And the ultimate goal, I know for you and Luke and I is to see Latter Day Saints freed from the oppression and the darkness of Mormonism and to come out into the light of the gospel and to receive the gift of eternal life and peace with God, with the true Christ. I mean, that's the goal. That's what we, we want to see happen to our Latter Day Saints friends who are watching this. And so Greg Sukkert, S U K E r t on YouTube, check out this last production and then be looking forward to coming on Saturday. Greg, thanks for coming on especially the last minute like this with us.
- [77:04]
Greg Sukert
Yeah, thanks for having me, brother. It's. Appreciate it.
- [77:06]
Jeff Durbin
Absolutely thankful for you, man. So thankful. Looking forward to seeing more from you.
- [77:11]
Greg Sukert
Awesome.
- [77:12]
Luke Bear
Thanks, bro.
- [77:13]
Jeff Durbin
All right, guys, so wanted to point you some last minute things, everybody. If you would go to apologiastudios.com go check out the store that's there. There are tracks there. You can, you can start your evangelism journey with Latter Day Saints. Grab some of the gospel from Mormon tracts. God has used those to bring a lot of Latter Day Saints out of Mormonism into faith with Christ. And there's also basic gospel tracks. There are all kinds of other things there. There's shirts, there's mugs and those sorts of things. Everything you do there is going to support the ministry of Apologia Studios. And Luke, what else do you want to do?
- [77:46]
Luke Bear
Of course, we want to point everyone to Heritage Defense. If you homeschool your kids, please sign up for Heritage Defense. You can go to heritage defense.org put apologia in the coupon code. Gets free first month free. And they're awesome. And we also want to mention one more time, Dominion Wealth. You saw that at the beginning. Grateful for those brothers. You can go to Reform Money and get a free consultation from them.
- [78:08]
Jeff Durbin
All right, everybody, thank you guys so, so very much for being with us today. Don't forget to go to apologiastudios.com give help us to get to our funding goal. First fundraiser we've ever done for Apologia Studios. Help us to get to that goal. We have new program productions ready for you guys. We have new tools being added to all access and ultimately to the app itself. So much is coming. Help us to meet that goal so we can get everything under production for you guys and bless the world with even more content that makes much of Christ. We want you to know what you believe, why you believe it, and be able to communicate that to the world. All toward the goal of seeing the entire world filled with the knowledge of God, like the waters cover the sea. That's the goal. And so thank you. I'm Jeff, the common ninja. That's Luke the Bear.
- [78:49]
Luke Bear
Peace out.
- [78:49]
Jeff Durbin
We'll catch you next week right here on Apologia Radio.