577. Challenging Mormon Apologists to Come and Talk

Summary

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Apologia Radio Ep. 577: "Challenging Mormon Apologists to Come and Talk"

Host: Jeff "The Ninja" Durbin, with Luke "the Bear"
Date: June 26, 2026
Episode Focus: Open invitation and challenge for open dialogue between Christian apologists and leading Mormon apologists; in-depth critique of recent Mormon arguments about the nature of God, scripture, and church history.

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Main Theme & Purpose

This episode centers on host Jeff Durbin's renewed call for substantive, face-to-face dialogue between Christian and Mormon thinkers—specifically inviting prominent Mormon apologists Hayden Carroll and Jacob Hansen to Apologia Studios for a wide-ranging discussion, including Dr. James White. The episode interweaves this appeal with a detailed critique of arguments advanced by Carroll and Hansen in recent online debates, especially regarding doctrines of God, scripture, and historical theology.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Open Call for Dialogue with Mormon Apologists

• [08:56–13:14] Jeff recounts attempts over the years to engage LDS representatives and articulates the renewed plan for a roundtable dialogue instead of a single-topic debate.
  • Originally planned a Sola Scriptura debate with Hayden and Jacob, but shifted to suggesting a broader, multi-topic, public conversation with Dr. James White also present.
  • Reiterates the challenge/invitation: “My suggestion is that Dr. James White and myself sit down here at Apologia Studios with both Jacob and Hayden and we just have a conversation about a variety of different subjects and let's just have a conversation and let's do it that way...” (Jeff, 11:40)

2. Review & Critique: LDS Views on the Nature of God and Jesus

• [13:25–29:52] Discussion of clips from Greg Sukert’s video “This Mormon Apologist Challenged Everything I Believe about Jesus,” focusing on Latter-day Saint claims about the Trinity, divinity of Jesus, and Old Testament texts.
  • Notable Quote: “If there are Mormons believing in a false Jesus today, it's God's judgment on them.” (Jeff, 20:21)
• Romans 1 & Idolatry: Jeff uses Romans 1 to critique the LDS teaching that God “started as a man” and is essentially of the same kind as humans. Argues this is classic idolatry—worship of the creature, not the creator.
  • “What is the fundamental claim of the Mormon Church is that God is a man, right?...Romans 1 makes perfect sense with Mormonism. They don't want the true God, so they worship and serve what a creature rather than the true creator.” (19:49)

3. Debate over Terminology & LDS Revisionism

• [23:47–25:28] Luke and Jeff push back on claims from Mormon commenters that LDS have always self-identified as Christian, highlighting a shift in recent decades.
  • Notable Moment: “They called us Gentiles.” (Jeff, 24:09)
  • Also refute the claim that LDS was the first to use "Church of Jesus Christ".

4. Yahweh, Elohim, and the Trinity

• [25:28–32:19] Detailed engagement with the Mormon understanding of Yahweh, Elohim, and the alleged "Council of the Gods."
  • Jeff argues that the name "Yahweh" refers to the one true God and points to Old Testament evidence for the Trinity.
  • Notable Quotes:
    • “Yahweh is the name of God and so the Father can have it, Jesus can have it, the Spirit of God can have it. That's true. But it doesn't mean three gods because Scripture is abundantly clear...there is only one true and living God...there's no way out of that.” (Jeff, 30:06)
  • Critique of LDS attempts to read “divine council” language into biblical texts.

5. Dead Sea Scrolls, Deuteronomy 32, and LDS Textual Claims

• [31:15–39:50] Hayden and Jacob claim ancient versions of Deuteronomy 32 (based on Dead Sea Scrolls) support a multiplicity of gods; Jeff checks primary sources and finds this to be unfounded.
  • Notable Moment: Jeff walks listeners through the text, comparing the LDS claim with the original Hebrew and Dead Sea Scrolls sources, finding no support for LDS readings.
  • Memorable Critique: “They make public claims indefensible and refutable, and they just go on like it wasn’t done. And that’s a problem.” (Jeff, 38:08)

6. Monotheism, Canon, and Historical Claims

• [40:08–49:05] LDS guests argue Israelites became "hard monotheists" over time; Jeff disputes this, citing clear, early biblical monotheism.
  • “The story of redemptive history begins with God's revelation that he's the only God, the unique creator of all things... That theology didn't start changing and morphing through redemptive history. It was always solid and always the same from the very beginning.” (Jeff, 42:41)

7. Trinitarian Doctrine vs. LDS Christology

• [45:28–54:54] Extended discussion of whether the New Testament teaches the Trinity and the hypostatic union; Hayden claims these are late doctrinal developments.
  • Jeff shows that Hebrews 1 and Colossians 2 unmistakably teach the deity and shared nature/substance of Christ and the Father.
  • Memorable Instruction: Jeff does a live Greek interlinear walkthrough on air to show that “character” (exact imprint) and “hypostaseos” (substance/nature) are in the text of Hebrews 1:3.
  • Quote: "It’s not that it’s not in the Bible. It’s that, Hayden, you don’t know your Bible." (Jeff, 52:34)

8. Authority and Canon in the Time of Jesus

• [68:50–74:17] LDS guests assert first-century Jewish canon was unsettled; Jeff counters using Paul's references ("entrusted with the oracles of God") and Jesus' teachings, along with known evidence of canonical books stored in the Second Temple.
  • “When Hayden makes the absolute ignorant claim that in Jesus time the Jews didn't know what the scriptures were I would just challenge you...go and study first century detail...Our Old Testament books…” (Jeff, 71:18)

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• Jeff Durbin on LDS misunderstanding of Calvinism and biblical judgment:
  “You have conversations like this where you say, honestly, pretty stupid things... You haven’t even spent the time and energy to understand your opponent before you try to actually critique them.” (15:07)
• On Romans 1 and LDS Theology:
  “Idolatry is a part of the human experience because of a fallen nature... People worship false because they don’t want the true God.” (16:49)
• On LDS historical revisionism:
  “I’m seeing some of that in the comments section, somebody saying that Mormons have always called themselves Christians, that’s just blatantly false.” (Luke, 23:53)
• On the Trinity in Hebrews:
  “He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature...the exact imprint or stamp. It's identical—not just similar, it's identical in detail. That's the point. Hypostaseos... refers to being, nature or substance.” (Jeff, 52:34)
• On the purpose of the dialogue:
  “Hopefully that conversation be a blessing to both communities.” (22:12)

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Important Timestamps

• 08:56–13:14: Jeff’s open invitation to Hayden and Jacob for a roundtable at Apologia Studios
• 13:14–20:21: Review of Mormon apologist arguments about the nature of Jesus and the charge of abject ignorance over Christian doctrine
• 29:52–39:50: Detailed debunking of LDS interpretations of Deuteronomy 32 and the Dead Sea Scrolls
• 40:08–49:05: Arguments over Israelite monotheism and the progressive revelation of God’s nature
• 52:34–54:54: Deep dive into the Greek of Hebrews 1 to defend traditional Christian doctrine of Jesus’ divinity and rebut LDS claims
• 68:50–74:17: Debunking LDS claims about canon formation and Jewish scriptural authority in Jesus’ day

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Tone and Takeaways

• Combative yet pastoral: Hosts maintain a critical, sometimes blunt tone while defending historic Christianity, but frequently remind listeners of the importance of truth, compassion for LDS individuals, and honest dialogue.
• Emphasis on biblical literacy: Repeated exhortations for listeners (and dialog partners) to study original texts, biblical languages, and church history.
• Invitation to mutual benefit: Sincere appeal that these discussions be for the edification and correction of both Christian and Mormon audiences.

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Conclusion & Call to Action

• Jeff and Luke reiterate the challenge: "Come talk with us." They express hope for a meaningful roundtable in the next two months and direct listeners to Apologia Studios for further content, information, and support opportunities.
• The episode ends with practical information for supporters, reminders about upcoming ministry events in Ohio, and gratitude to sponsors.

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For those who haven’t listened:
This episode provides both a robust critique of current LDS apologetics and an open invitation for public dialogue. The hosts carefully walk through key biblical texts, challenge the historiography and exegesis presented by popular online Mormon voices, and demonstrate live how to test theological claims. If you want to understand the major dividing lines between evangelical Christianity and Mormonism—and how each side articulates and defends their doctrine of God—this episode is an excellent, unapologetic primer.

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Transcript

[Dominion Wealth Representative]

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[Luke the Bear]

I would say if the authorities didn't

[Jeff the Call Me Ninja]

want us involved in the public square, they ought not to have crucified Jesus in the public square. Use humanistic principles. The same idea, same end, I would say. What's the problem with stardust bumping into stardust in the cosmic picture? No, there's no problem in the cosmic picture. It won't matter. No, Mr. President, you are not protecting reproductive freedom. You are authorizing the destruction of freedom for one million little human beings every year. I'm sorry, my friends, but I am tired to seeing Jesus presented as a weak beggar. He is a powerful Savior. And the Gospel is not a suggestion, it is a command. Reverend Mola, don't you sympathize with that? I sympathize with every single human heart wishing to know the one true and living God. But I believe there's only one way that that can happen. Through Jesus Christ. And the Gospel is about repenting of sin, not celebrating it. Right now, you're on the threshold of an amazing adventure. We will explore this spiritual abyss.

[Luke the Bear]

You have not experienced this before. You're gonna love it.

[Jeff the Call Me Ninja]

Long ago, at many times, in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets. But in these last days, he has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature. And he upholds the universe by the Word of his power. That's Hebrews chapter one, everybody. What's up, everybody? Welcome back to another episode of the Gospel Heard around the world. This is Apologia Radio. I'm Jeff the Call me Ninja. That's Luke the Bear right there.

[Unidentified Guest]

What up?

[Jeff the Call Me Ninja]

You can get more at apologiastudios.com that's apo o l o g I a apologiastudios.com if you haven't got a chance to yet, make sure you do, go to apologiastudios.com all the past episodes of Apologia Radio. Shiologians, Cultish, provoked are all there. Just hundreds of hours and episodes. I mean, going all the way Back to like 2010. Everything is up there for you guys. And you can sign up for All Access when you partner with us through All Access. You are a part of this ministry with us. And so we're very grateful to all of you guys who are with us with All Access. You've been with us, many of you, from the very beginning. So thank you. Everything you see coming from Polygia Studios, the on the street evangelism, the engagement, the teaching ministry, the public debates, whatever it is, it's because of people just like you who are literally in this ministry with us through your giving, in partnership with us through All Access. And when you're All Access, you get, you get access to all kinds of additional stuff. The Apology Academy, full episodes of Collision, all the additional stuff that's. That's there, plus more is coming this year in All Access. We are upgrading everything right now. I want to just do a quick reminder and get right to the show today. We are in the midst right now of our first official fundraiser. We've done for Apologia Studios since 2015. And we're ready to give you new programs, new tools, new access to all kinds of things to help you to know what you believe, why you believe it, and be able to articulate a defense of the Christian message. And so we are right now raising funds for that. We have raised about $50,000 already. And so I want to say, and Lu wants to say from the bottom of our hearts, thank you, thank you, thank you to all of you guys who have given to this fundraiser. So we can basically bring you a brand new Apologia Studios. So much is coming for you guys. The app is on Apple right now, just being tested, and it's ready to essentially launch very, very soon. And so we're very excited. And so if you guys would, if you haven't done so yet go to apologiastudios.com give help us to get to our goal so we can start rolling all of this out for you guys. We have big plans, very excited and, and everything's going to look. We are upgrading everything and just making it to where the, the app itself and Apologia Studios is just a one stop shop where you're going to get equipped and trained. So much is going to be there for entertainment but also to equip you and to make sure that you know what you believe, why you believe it, you can articulate the Christian message. Did that just get loud all of a sudden in my ears. It just rose way up. I feel like I'm screaming at myself right now. So everybody, thank you again. I wanted to also let you know, just, I'll just say this briefly. Bills of abolition going in across the country next session, plans for more bills to come in. We have something happening right now in the state of Ohio. We have a bill of abolition, equal protection happening in Ohio. And we need to get the church together in Ohio, all the pastors, Christians that want to be a part of this and join together with our team to make sure that we establish justice for the preborn. It's happening next week. That's next Tuesday. Next Tuesday in Ohio. It's somewhere around Cleveland. Ish. And so we're on the eastern side this time of Ohio to do this. We've done a new numerous of these in, in Ohio, mostly on the western side and also northern Kentucky. But so it's happening next week, Tuesday. I'm gonna put after the show today, I'm gonna put a link into the description that you need to go to. If you are a pastor, a Christian leader in Ohio, you want to be a part of this, this bill to abolish it in Ohio, you got to come, but also you got to register. So we know how many people are coming and, and want to make sure we can feed you dinner that night. And so next Tuesday I'll be in Ohio. Leaders all across Ohio to make sure that we establish justice in the state of Ohio. So again, after the show I'll put it right into the description. And so that's it. So there's the opening, all the details and I will say some of you guys, some of you guys, when we're going through this important stuff, sometimes you'll be in the comments afterwards like hey guys, just Skip ahead to 10 minutes. It's like, you know, we could just jump right in. But we have some important things to Tell you, like, for example, the thing about Ohio, you may have an Ohio pastor or Christian mission, what was said about what's happening in Ohio, because you're like, just skip all the stuff at the beginning. It's. It's actually really important. So stop telling everyone to skip so they can hear about the things that are happening where they can participate. So let's get right into it. We are going to review some of the recent conversation we did. This dude was it last week with Greg. Two weeks ago with Greg, our friend. Our friend Greg sat down with Mormon apologist Hayden Carroll. And Greg's been releasing clips and small portions of that conversation. Slowly sort of bleeding that out over the last couple of weeks. And so what I wanted to do is, is engage with one of the last ones that he dropped. It's on Greg Sukert's channel that's S U K E r t on YouTube. And the title of this video is this Mormon Apologist Challenged Everything I Believe about Jesus. This Mormon Apologist Challenged Everything I Believe about Jesus. So what we're going to do is we're going to review this, go through. But as we start the episode, you can see in the title, we have over many years of ministry attempted especially very early on to get engagement with official representatives or representatives of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, the Mormon Church. Many of those have just fallen through. Many of them were started and then the person backed out of the discussion or the public debate. And so over the years we've been on the street trying to reach the Mormon people. We engage where we can. We've had people on the radio program before, Mormon apologists, you know, representatives of the Mormon Church, as much as they can be representatives of the Mormon Church. And so we've always been available and I've mentioned over the last couple of months that our schedules are extraordinarily busy, extraordinarily busy. And there's just so much going on, we can't even list them all right now. And if you, if you knew our schedules, you would, you would ask the question and maybe we'll ask that know us. And that's how are you doing all of that? To which we say we don't know. We have no idea. It's all the grace of God. However, in seeing some of this, my plan, I'll just go ahead and say what my plan was. My plan was to, when I have the opportunity and the time to figure out where to put it in with, you know, my obligations as a pastor, my obligations to My my family and a severely disabled daughter and Apologia Studios and end abortion. Now. Finding a time to do a public debate. I was going to actually say let's do a public debate where we have Hayden and Jacob, Jacob Hanson on one side. And to deb me on the issue of Sola Scriptura, however, I had a change of mind. That's what I was going to actually announce. And you can ask the guys about that. I was, we were planning and just go ahead and announce, hey, let's do a public debate on this issue. Sola Scriptura. Let's have the two of you have it with me. But after watching Greg's series of videos, it occurred to me that we could probably accomplish more of a valuable and meaningful conversation over a number of different topics if we just sat down like this, like Greg did with Hayden, because the topic of Sola Scriptura and the primacy of the revelation of God is super important. It's foundational. And of course, Jacob and Hayden deny essential parts of, of what makes God's revelation God's revelation. And so that's important. But there's a number of other issues that keep coming up with both Jacob and Hayden. Ignor, ignorance about the Bible, ignorance about Calvinism, ignorance about Sola Scriptura, the transmission of the text of the Bible, church history. There's just so much. And I thought to myself, what would be more valuable is to be able to address, you know, at least a handful of these subjects together without even the constraints of time and just be able to engage. And so what I've done is I've changed my mind in terms of a public debate wherever we can work it in on one topic. And I think it'd be really valuable for the church, Christians and for Latter Day Saints to view this conversation. And so here's my suggestion. My suggestion is that Dr. James White and myself sit down here at Apologia Studios with both Jacob and Hayden and we just sit down and we have a conversation about a variety of different subjects and let's just have a conversation and let's do it that way. That way we can, I think, accomplish a lot more and get into more details and it wouldn't just be a one topic, one night sort of a thing. So that's my suggestion. Here's the only challenge. I've already announced it. I am insanely busy and finding time to squeeze this in. We can do it typically like where we have scheduled apology or radio in the week, but then also having Dr. White involved. So here's here's what I'm saying, Hayden and Jacob, you can get ahold of me, you can contact me, and let's schedule something out over the next two months. Dr. White's schedule has time for him in town here where he could do this with us, but he does have some. Some prior engagements and some debates coming up. So over the next two months, I think we could find a time to make it work where you guys come into the studio, we sit down together and we just have a conversation. And that's what I'm. That's what I'm proposing. It's a much easier thing to work out, and I think we'll accomplish more doing that. And so that's my suggestion. I hope you guys take it. And Luke, you want to say anything about it before we move on?

[Luke the Bear]

Let's do it.

[Jeff the Call Me Ninja]

Okay, so let's get right into now some important parts of the conversation. More of these through the beginning. I seriously doubt we're going to get through this whole video today. It's about 20 minutes long, I think

[Luke the Bear]

before we got through About a minute.

[Hayden Carroll]

Yeah.

[Jeff the Call Me Ninja]

And so, so here's what we're gonna do. We're gonna go through some of the opening parts again. This, the title of this video. If you guys want to go find it later and watch it for yourself, and I highly encourage you to do so. Is this Mormon apologist challenged? Everything I believe about Jesus. Christian versus Mormon debate again, it's on Greg Sukert's channel. It's S U K E R T and it's Hayden Carroll talking with Greg. And so let's just get right into it. I'll do my best to be as can at points on this, but let's get right into it.

[Jacob Hansen]

But you're telling me, like, unless you could do these things that I see God doing in my interpretation of the Bible, then you're a God.

[Jeff the Call Me Ninja]

And I'm telling you, I don't think

[Hayden Carroll]

reality corresponds to us being anything ontologically like God.

[Jacob Hansen]

I don't say that in your interpretation of God. Absolutely. But I reject your interpretation.

[Hayden Carroll]

Well, you believe God did the Red Sea. Like he split the Red Sea. Like, did he do that?

[Jacob Hansen]

Sure. And I think that.

[Jeff the Call Me Ninja]

So where's your little version of that?

[Hayden Carroll]

Let's get to the person of Jesus because I really think a lot of this, you know, centers on him, you know, because if there's a true Jesus who's revealed in scripture and we are willingly rejecting him for a different Jesus who I believe the Latter Day Saints present, you know, that's going to be another one that God's going to hold us to account. So let's talk about Jesus. Like who is Jesus in the Latter Day Saint view?

[Jacob Hansen]

Yes, I will. Let me just preface this by saying I'm not sure that this conversation is meaningful because if God wanted Latter Day Saints to worship the true Jesus Christ, he would lead them, he would regenerate them and lead them to the true Jesus Christ. So it actually seems like to me that God wants the Latter Day Saints to worship, if your view is correct, a false Jesus. So, so I'm, I'm. Does that make sense?

[Jeff the Call Me Ninja]

Like, not. No, no. And I would say this is once again, once again, I've said this over and over and over again. Another example of this, the display of abject ignorance that Hayden has over Calvinism and the doctrines of grace. I'm going to say this publicly because you make these mistakes so many times, Hayden. I think there's obviously evidence of even admitting to these sorts of things. You haven't even studied this subject, but yet you speak on it publicly. You haven't studied it. You haven't read books by reformed Christians, either historic or present day, explaining from the scriptures the belief in God's sovereignty, total sovereignty, God's active decrees, all of that. You haven't, you haven't engaged with that. And so you, you have conversations like this where you say honestly, pretty stupid things, stupid things. It displays ignorance that you're, you're, you're mentally dull or you haven't even spent the time and energy to understand your opponent before you try to actually critique them. So you say, you know, it seems like God wants us to worship. I don't even know why it matters. It seems like he wants us to worship a false God. Well, try that with Romans chapter one. I mean, you do have in your quad, you do have Romans in your quad in the King James Version. But King James or modern English is going to say the same thing. And what it says in Romans Chapter one is the answer to your challenge there. Idolatry is a part of the human experience because of a fallen nature, because of people who hate God, because of people who are literally, it says in the text, haters of God. They're rebellious against God, they're enemies of God according to the Apostle Paul's theology. And so people worship false because they don't want the true God. And yet Scripture is very, very clear that God is the only true God. He creates all things, including all of humanity. And God does have a prescriptive will for humanity in terms of what they're made for. They're made to worship God, to glorify God, to enjoy God forever. That is our vocation. Every human being. The atheist's vocation, the call of God to him is to worship and love the true and living God. What's the problem? It's that even though God is so clearly obvious to all of us, the heavens decl the glory of God. Even though Romans chapter one says that he's made himself known to every single human being, the problem isn't a lack of light, a lack of evidence. They just don't know and understand. It's that they don't want the true God. And watch this. This is really important. I want everyone to hear this. This is really, really important. We typically read Romans Chapter one in this way is that we all know God. We suppress the truth of God and unrighteousness, and we switch God for idols, and we worship idols. And people typically, when they read Romans 1, read it like, oh, I get that.

[Unidentified Guest]

Yeah.

[Jeff the Call Me Ninja]

Human beings have a, have a history of that, is that we worship the stone, the stubble, the hay, the wood. We create the idols and fashion together with our own hands, and we make these idols and we have idols of the heart. And we're all pagans, right? We're worshiping many different gods, false gods. And that's right and true. But notice Romans chapter one, it says they worship and serve the creature rather than the Creator. Hear that? Ready? The part of the fall is that we suppress the truth of God and unrighteousness. We don't want God in our knowledge. We don't want to think about Him. Basically Paul is saying, and so we switch God for an idol and we worship and serve the creature rather than the Creator. All right? So that's what Paul says. That's the plight of humanity and that's what the Fall does to us. We don't want the true God, so we switch God for an idol, worship and serve the creature rather than the Creator. And what is the fundamental claim of the Mormon Church is that God is a man, right? Not that we're not talking about the incarnation where God takes on flesh and becomes a man and condescends to save us. But they believe that actually no, God starts as a man, right? That's like we're all gods and embryo. Like this nature we have here is God and embryo kind of nature, and we're just like God. And whether or not you are with like classic and historic Mormonism and you believe in an infinite regression of gods and Like God had a God who had a God who had a God or you one of these new Mormons that's re respinning the entire thing. They believe that God started as a man. Right. And he becomes God one day. And so what does that mean? Romans 1, they worship and serve the creature rather than the creator. It's Romans 1. Idolatry with Christian language put onto it. Because what are the, what is the Mormon Church saying is that no, we're like God, exactly like God.

[Dominion Wealth Representative]

Right.

[Jeff the Call Me Ninja]

It, we're going to become, we're going to do what he did. And he was a man, he was human from the beginning. And so on that basis, Romans 1 makes perfect sense with Mormonism. They don't want the true God, so they worship and serve what a creature rather than the true creator. But notice though, Hayden makes it, I don't even think you're God. You God seems to want all these Mormons to believe in a false Jesus. If there are Mormons believing in a false Jesus today, it's God's judgment on them.

[Dominion Wealth Representative]

Yeah.

[Jeff the Call Me Ninja]

It's not his prescript, his prescriptive. Prescriptive will. There you go. Prescriptive will that human beings rebel against him. But God absolutely has a sovereign will where he determines what everything Scripture says, the, the end from the beginning, he determines all things. Scripture is really clear about that. And so if people are under judgment and if they're worshiping false gods, it is judgment, God's judgment upon them. It's not like God, and this shows his ignorance, he doesn't understand the difference between God, God's command and his will for humanity, his prescriptive will. And then also God's judgments. And to say, well, these people hate me, they're haters of God, they're rebellious, so I'm going to give them what they want. And that's a false God to worship. And if God does that, that's God's judgment and God's right to judge people for that. So again, Romans chapter one. One Romans chapter one.

[Jacob Hansen]

Luke.

[Luke the Bear]

Time for a break already. But I, I just, the comments are killing me here already.

[Hayden Carroll]

Already.

[Luke the Bear]

But it's time for a break, so maybe I'll just hold on to that.

[Jeff the Call Me Ninja]

Okay, so let's do this, everyone, quick commercial break. Do, do what you can right now, everyone, to make sure the algorithm kicks us into gear so people see it and spread it far and wide and get the information out about this discussion we like to have with both Jacob and Hayden. Do the likes, do the shares, do the subscribe stuff and Let people know what's going on on. We're gonna do a quick commercial break. Be right back after this more and we're gonna try to get through as much as we can of this and there's some important stuff in here. Trust me, you want to hear. We'll be right back after this message. This episode's brought to you by ion [e-mail] Go and check out the health benefits, the wellness benefits and longevity benefits of NAD treatments. NAD is nicknamed the fountain of youth for a reason. You have an abundance of this in your system when you're young. As you get older, it drops off. And now we found a way to get into our systems. They do it through IV treatments, but they're very expensive and it's also extremely painful and difficult. However, Ion Layer found a way to get a high dose of NAD into your system through a medical patch you wear on your arm. You wear it for about 14 hours, you get a high dose of NAD treatment into your system and no pain at all. And it is a fraction of the cost of what you would pay through for an IV treatment. In the coupon code, type in Apologia in all caps. They're going to hook you up with a great discount for an already amazingly cost effective product. And they bless Apologia studios and help us to stay on the air and do all these programs with you. Don't forget. Also, Ion Layer has added a glutathione patch as well. Glutathione, the master antioxidant. Go check out the health benefits of glutathione. I'm doing this stuff anyways. It's blessed my life in tremendous ways. And so if you want to focus on your health, health, wellness and longevity, nothing better in my mind than ionlayer.com for your NAD and Glutathione treatments. Ionlayer.com don't forget to put Apologia in all caps in the coupon code. Welcome back everybody. Thank you guys for joining us today. If you would get this out far and wide, we are offering an opportunity to have a sit down and conversation with two prominent Mormon apologists, Jacob Hansen and Hayden Carroll, here at Apologia Studios. Get the word out, let the Latter Day Saints know, let the church know. Hopefully that conversation be a blessing to both communities. So before we jump into more of the video, Pastor Luke.

[Luke the Bear]

Yeah, just real quickly, what we're about to watch in this video, if we hopefully we get to it, is a bit of historical revisionism.

[Jeff the Call Me Ninja]

Yeah.

[Luke the Bear]

And I'm seeing some of that in the comments section, somebody saying that one, that Mormons have always called themselves Christians, that's just blatantly false. And I mean, was 10, 15 years ago, you would not see a Mormon call themselves a Christian. They were very, very adamant that there was a distinction.

[Jeff the Call Me Ninja]

They called us Gentiles.

[Luke the Bear]

Yeah, exactly. So that's just completely false. No truth to that. And if we had someone, if we had our, if our former Mormon apologist friend was still alive, he would very much deny it.

[Jeff the Call Me Ninja]

I mean, most of the old school Mormons would make it very clear they always wanted to make a distinction between Mormons and Christians. And they were the Church of God, we were the Church of the Devil, and they called us Gentiles. And yeah, you started to see over time where Mormons were saying, well, we're Christians too, we're Christians too. And we started to engage with that. But that is more of a modern story sort of change or transformation amongst the Mormon community. And that's of course anecdotal, because it's my experience, but I'm, I'm, I'm quite confident I can find plenty of writings specifically about this subject in terms of the sharp distinction that Mormons wanted to make between Christians and Mormons.

[Luke the Bear]

Yeah. And then the same person made a claim that the LDs were the first religion to call their church the Church of Jesus Christ. Okay, no, I mean, first of all, Christian literally means Little Christmas. So. And there's evidence of that in the New Testament. So let's not, let's not make that claim. That's silly.

[Jeff the Call Me Ninja]

Yeah. And I guarantee you there are plenty of churches long before Joseph Smith in 1830 that had the name Christ and, and Church of Christ in their name. So it's just not true. Here we go.

[Hayden Carroll]

But I'd love to know who your view of Jesus is.

[Jacob Hansen]

He's the Son of God and he's rightfully called God. He's in the Council of God would be our position.

[Hayden Carroll]

He's not God. He's not Yahweh himself in the flesh.

[Jacob Hansen]

He. He can bear the title of Yahweh. Absolutely. But the Most High God is the Father.

[Hayden Carroll]

Okay, so what's the difference between the most high God and Yahweh? Because in the Old Testament, Yahweh is the, the most high God who's acting, who's redeeming Israel, who's. Who gives the covenant.

[Jacob Hansen]

Yahweh can be used as a name to talk about like an individual or who, or it can be referred to a what which is like the Council of God. God.

[Hayden Carroll]

That, that would be Elohim. Elohim is, is the title. Yahweh is the name.

[Jacob Hansen]

No, but there are instances in the Old Testament where different individuals can bear the name of Yahweh to represent like the divine council.

[Hayden Carroll]

Now that's.

[Jeff the Call Me Ninja]

Yeah, you need, you need to do a lot more work on this. Hayden, when you talk about Yahweh, Yahweh is the name of God. We're talking about something that comes from the Chatu grammaton. This is clear and understood. The name of God is Yahweh. And yes, you can see all the way back in the Old Testament all of the indicators of the Trinity and all that's there in the Old Testament. I love how James wrote it in his book the Forgotten Trinity. It's the doctrine of the Trinity and what scripture says about the Trinity clear and consistently throughout out is not something that springs forth in the New Testament as a theological novum for the New Testament. It's not like, oh, this is crazy. Nothing even similar to this is, is in God's Old Testament revelation. Not at all. James makes the point. I think it's very, very clear that the Old Testament is like a dimly lit room, right? You can still see what's there, but it's, it's not ultimately in full, clear, vivid view because it's dimly lit. And so the New Testament is just turning the lights on in that same room. You're not seeing stuff that wasn there before. Now you're seeing in its clarity. Like for example, in, in Sodom and Gomorrah. In Sodom and Gomorrah we clearly have the pre incarnate Christ. You clearly have Jesus read that account of Abraham's conversation with the angel of the Lord. You have the angel of the Lord appearing in the Old Testament a number of times and worshiped. And it's clear it's actually God himself. But in the, the story of, or the account of Sodom and Gomorrah, Gomorrah, you've got Yahweh on earth raining down fire from heaven, from Yahweh in heaven. Well, you've got Yahweh and Yahweh. It's the name. Christ can appropriately be called Yahweh because he is God. The Father is appropriately called Yahweh because he is God. And the Spirit of God is the spirit of Yahweh and of course can appropriately be called Yahweh. And so I, Hayden, is completely mixed up here. Completely mixed up here and honestly ignorant about so much of this stuff. And that's why I think it'll be important to actually sit down because some of this stuff goes unchallenged and I think it needs to be challenged, properly challenged, face to face. And so just real quick, I, I

[Luke the Bear]

don't know if you caught it. He's. It seems like his defense of the Trinity is now saying the counsel of God. But from my understanding, from what I've seen from, from him and our other friend is that they seem to deny the, the, the doctrine of the Council of Gods. They seem to say no, I know one that wasn't, that wasn't Mormon doctrine. But now we're right back at it. Now we're, we're defending the Council of God. They took the s off counsel of God. So it's interesting. I would, I would want to him to define that.

[Jeff the Call Me Ninja]

Right.

[Luke the Bear]

A little more there.

[Jeff the Call Me Ninja]

Also notice what, how much Hayden is interjecting into the chat, into the text itself. Elohim means counsel of God.

[Luke the Bear]

Yeah.

[Dominion Wealth Representative]

Where.

[Jeff the Call Me Ninja]

Right, explain that. Right. It's just sort of just, he just puts it out there like it's true and it can be easily challenged and ultimately reward refuted.

[Hayden Carroll]

It's Elohim. You're getting confused. Elohim is the title of God. Yahweh is the name of God by which he reveals himself to Israel. In fact, Israel had such a reverence for the name of God, Yahweh that they brushed over it and they replaced it with the Hebrew word Adonai, which means Lord. Which is why our, my translation, the ESV Yahweh in the Old Testament is translated all caps L O r D in continuation with the Jewish reverence for the name of God, which is Yahweh. Yahweh.

[Jacob Hansen]

I would posit, without being able to open my Scriptures right now, that the word Yahweh can be used to refer to God the Father or to Jesus Christ or to the Spirit of the Lord that they can each true.

[Jeff the Call Me Ninja]

That's true. Absolutely. Because Yahweh is the name of God and so the Father can have it, Jesus can have it, the Spirit of God can have it. That's true. But it doesn't mean three gods because Scripture is abundantly clear and you can't get around it, Hayden. You cannot. You and Jacob cannot overcome this. You cannot. Scripture is clear from beginning throughout all that there is only one true and living God. None before, none after. Before me there was no God form. Another shall be after me. I'm the first. I'm the Last, besides me, there is no God. He doesn't even know of any other God besides him. He is God alone in the heavens above and on the earth below. There is no other. There's no way out of that. And so there is only one. One God. And yes, the Father is rightly called God and Yahweh and the Son is rightly called God and Yahweh and the Spirit of God is rightly called God and Yahweh. But there is only one true and living God, and there's just no way

[Jacob Hansen]

out of that, that title that the word Yahweh again, can refer to a who, an individual, a person, or to a what, being God. When I say God, I mean that

[Hayden Carroll]

counsel and think, yeah, but you wouldn't have anything that you could point to for that right now.

[Jacob Hansen]

In Deuteronomy 32, verses 8 and 9, are you familiar with those verses where it says the Most High God gives a portion of the earth to. To Yahweh? Are you familiar with that?

[Hayden Carroll]

I don't know what this is.

[Jacob Hansen]

So basically, in the. Was it the 1950s or 60s when they found the Dead Sea Scrolls in the.

[Jeff the Call Me Ninja]

It was the 1940s little shepherd boy named Muhammad throwing rocks into the area where the caves in Qumran were. But I'm gonna let. I'm let Hayden finish the thought here, because you guys need to hear this.

[Jacob Hansen]

Is it called Qumran? I think it's called. In the earliest texts of the Old Testament that date back to, I think, 200 BC in the earliest that we have them, there are discrepancies in the current translations with those ancient texts of the Old Testament. In deuteronomy, particularly chapter 32, where it says, says the Most High God gives his sons, one of them being Yahweh, the different portions of the earth. And so my question is, that is

[Hayden Carroll]

not the Old Testament view of Yahweh.

[Jeff the Call Me Ninja]

All right, So I heard this when I was actually driving into the studio a couple of days ago, and I was just so confused by what Hayden was saying. And so let's go to the text, because this. This happens often. Hayden makes claims that are historically inaccurate, biblically inaccurate, and a lot of times people who are in front of them haven't done the study, don't have the resources in front of them, and so they don't necessarily challenge them on it. But both Jacob and Hayden make a lot of blunders about theology, church history, all kinds of things. It just happens fairly often. And we've done programs illustrating that for all of you in the past. If you have questions about that, go check out the programs we've done on it. But Deuteronomy, chapter 32. Two, he says eight and nine. This is what the text says. This is the English Standard Version, of course, but let's get through it. Verse 8. When the most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind, he fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God. When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind, he fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God. God. Now, the text says, when the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance. But when Hayden first spoke on this, he says, when the Most High God gave to Yahweh, when he gave, he gave to Yahweh his inheritance. Their inheritance. And then he changed it the second time he spoke about it. When he gave to the sons. And one of the sons is Yahweh. None of that's in the text, right?

[Luke the Bear]

I even have a note here that says the Dead Sea scroll says the sons of Israel.

[Jeff the Call Me Ninja]

So, but let's get to the text here. So I'm like, all right, and here's the thing. Hayden did not expand upon this or expatiate upon it, except just to toss it out. And he's throwing words in that aren't not in the text. And he's making claims of the Dead Sea Scrolls. And, you know, he thinks they were done, maybe found maybe in the 60s. He thinks it was Qumran. And so that. What is. What is that? What does that say to all of us when you have someone speaking about that? Like, I think it might have been in the 60s, I think it was Qumran. It means that they don't know what they're talking about. Okay? It means they don't know what they're talking about. You have not studied this field. You don't really know this. You know nothing about textual criticism. Hayden, admit it. You don't know original biblical languages. You'd never studied Hebrew. You don't know Koine, Greek. You don't know these things. And yet you pretend to know these things and act like these things are settled. And so you made claims about the text of Deuteronomy 32, verses 8 and 9. That is not in Deuteronomy 32, 8 and 9. But then you make the claim that, well, it's Deuteronomy 32 from the dead Sea Scrolls. So I'm, I'm looking. Okay, I'm looking and I'm, I'm going, what exactly was the point that you're making here? Because you're like the Most High God gave to Yahweh, and then you said, the Most High God gave to his sons, one of whom is Yahweh. So what point were you making there? Do you even. Do you even know the point you were making there? So I'm looking through here, some of the Dead Sea Scroll Bible translations from Deuteronomy 32. Some of them don't. The pieces don't have verses 8 and 9. Some do. And so let's go through here together. So Deuteronomy 32 from Scroll 4q37. 4q37. This is right over here. Here's what it says. Oh, it says the same thing. It says the same thing that my English standard version in 2026 says, we'll start at 7. Remember the days of old. Consider the years of many generations. Ask your father, and he will show you your elders, and they will tell you. When the Most High God gave to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the children of men, he set the bounds of the peoples according to the number of the children of. Okay, there's, there's, yeah, there's a notation there, but look here. Ready? You said, when the Most High God gave to Yahweh. Well, my English Standard Version says nations, their inheritance. Scroll 4Q37 from Kumran, from the Dead Sea Scrolls. When the most High God. When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance. So what do you mean there's a discrepancy? Where's. Where's what you see said in either any modern English translation based upon the Hebrew text or the Septuagint text? Where is the translation today that says what you're saying? You're saying it's in the Dead Sea Scrolls? I'm looking at a portion of the Dead Sea Scrolls right in front of me. 4Q37. And it says, when the Most High gave to the nations, where's gave to Yahweh? That's what you made the claim about, was that that's what it said from Qumran, but you didn't know when they were found and you were not quite sure. You thought it was Qumran, which means you don't know what you're talking about, Hayden. So move further down and let's get to see here. There you go. Right here. This is Deuteronomy 32 from scroll 4q45.4q45. When the most High gave to the nations their inheritance. When he separated the children of men, he set the bounds of the peoples according to the number of the children of Israel. Okay, so there's verse eight. Your claim was the Most High gave to you, said the sons of God, one of whom is Yahweh. And you also said most High gave to Yahweh. The text says, when the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance.

[Luke the Bear]

Yeah.

[Jeff the Call Me Ninja]

What's going on? Why do we keep running into this issue with these young Mormon apologists where they make historical claims that are false. They make claims about Christian scholars and their scholarship that are false, provably false. You make claims about theological beliefs and systems that clearly show that you've never studied it in your life, never read a book on it. And then you make these claims about it. And then you make claims about texts of the Bible and the transmission of the text and these different works of antiquity that we have that we can go and draw from. You make claims. We're looking right at it. And Hayden, what are you talking about? Maybe you can expand upon it. Maybe you can. Maybe you know of some other, some other scroll from Qumran and the Dead Sea scrolls from Deuteronomy 32 that doesn't say precisely what our scriptures say right here. And, and this is the problem we keep running into. I keep, I keep saying this, I'm harping on it. We keep running into this problem again. We've done all these shows on it. They make public claims indefensible and refutable, and they just go on like it, like it wasn't done. And, and that's, that's a problem. We're all going to make mistakes. Now, don't get me wrong, we're all going to make mistakes. I'm going to make mistakes. Luke's going to make mistakes. We're all going to make mistakes. We're humans. It's part of human experience. But when you have a pattern where it just keeps happening and happening and happening and happening, and you do it with such confidence, I think everyone has a right at that point to start questioning your skills and your study skills and study habits. Let's move forward now with some more from this conversation with Greg and Hayden, though, so.

[Jacob Hansen]

Well, I agree, but it was at one point in the earliest text, it definitely was that there was a God named El Elyon. Are you familiar with this tradition? And that he dispersed first, like I said to his sons, different part, different jurisdictions in the Earth. And one of those portions was given to Yahweh So my question is.

[Hayden Carroll]

But that's, that's not the text tradition as a whole. You know, I don't, I don't know what this is, but I know that, that for a fact. Like, like the Jews are. It's a monotheistic religion.

[Jacob Hansen]

No, they became hard monotheists. Absolutely.

[Jeff the Call Me Ninja]

100.

[Jacob Hansen]

But they weren't monotheists back then.

[Hayden Carroll]

Well, because God is.

[Jeff the Call Me Ninja]

What does that even mean? They became hard monotheists? Okay, if you mean that the people of Israel often fell into idolatry, that's in the biblical text. That's in the story of redemptive history of them falling into sin, worshiping false gods. As a matter of fact, the most blatant crazy example of idolatry that is just like wild when you read it is that shortly after the people of Israel are released and redeemed from their bondage to Egypt and they pass through the Red Sea, they've seen all of the crazy, crazy plagues fall upon Egypt. They see God exercising his power over the gods of Egypt. And, and then they escape. I mean, they even take gold from the Egyptians and pass through the waters and they're, they're, they're heading to where they're heading. And then they get to Mount Sinai and they get the Ten Commandments. Moses isn't gone for very long, right? Like, he's not even gone long. And what's the first inclination they have as sinful people is like, let's start worshiping false gods and they start building altar and worshiping a false God again. So if you mean that the people of Israel fell into idolatry, that's in the text over and over and over again, right? That's what God warns him about. But this claim like they were not always hard monotheists, they became that. That doesn't jive with the text itself in terms of God from the beginning, always told them, them clearly that he was the one true and living God. God's revelation was never muddy at this point, which is, I think the point you're trying to make is they weren't always hard monotheists. It sort of morphed into that on hard monotheism, not in the text, not from Genesis, chapter one. And just reading the, the, the books of Moses, just reading the Pentateuch, just reading that, you see from the very beginning what's clearly communicated by God, that he's the only God, he's the unique creator of all things, there's none before him, that he's the only God in the heavens. Ab on the earth below. There is no other Shema, Yisrael, Yahweh, Eloheino, Yahweh, Echad, Hero, Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. It's the same story all the way through. So the Jews didn't go from polytheism or henotheism to strict monotheism. Like through this story of redemptive history. The story of redemptive history begins with God's revelation that he's the only God, the unique creator of all things. The first, the last, the beginning and the end. None before him, none after him. He doesn't even know of any other gods. That theology didn't start changing and morphing through redemptive history. It was always solid and always the same from the very beginning. So what, whatever do you mean? What, what do you mean? They didn't start that way. They became that.

[Luke the Bear]

You know, I just looked, I was curious because I'm on the, the LDS website right now and looking at their scriptures and so I'm, I'm guessing I'd have to ask him, but going back to where. And God said, let us make manner image. You know, they have a note there for us. Us, right. A reference to, you know, where. What, the book of Abraham. Oh, yeah, of Gary Price, you know, about the. God took counsel among themselves. Yes, the gods of counsel among themselves. You know, the book of Abraham. Yeah, the book, the story about the crocodile God.

[Hayden Carroll]

Yeah, that's right.

[Luke the Bear]

Ejaculating crocodile God.

[Jeff the Call Me Ninja]

And so back and.

[Luke the Bear]

Yeah, so, so maybe that's what he's referencing. Yeah, you know, maybe, maybe that's what he means. That. Well, that's what they originally meant because that's, that's what the book of Abraham says.

[Jeff the Call Me Ninja]

Not the Bible, though.

[Luke the Bear]

Exactly.

[Jeff the Call Me Ninja]

Not the Bible for sure. Hayden. And so the point you're making is just flatly not true. Not true. Not in redemptive history. Not in scripture. It didn't become hard monotheism with like, like, you know, polytheism littered throughout the Old Testament. Revelation from God never happened at all. There's only one unique living and true God, and that's it. You're not going to get anything else.

[Hayden Carroll]

Playing himself in time and space in a, in a henotheistic world. I believe that, you know, and, and over time God is revealing himself that I am the Lord and beside me there's no other. And there's this progressive understanding that somewhere along the line the Jewish people recognize there is only one God and there's no one else. So Yahweh as the Jewish people understand, the V is the one.

[Jacob Hansen]

I'm not disputing that. But even the New Testament is not hard. Monotheist. Right.

[Hayden Carroll]

That is First Corinthians 8 says, we know that there's no God but one. That all.

[Jacob Hansen]

Yes, but the question, is it talking about a who or what?

[Hayden Carroll]

It's talking about people who eat meat that was offered to idols. And he's saying, those idols that represent these other gods, they're nothing. There's only one God. We know there's only one God, and that's following in the tradition of the Jewish monotheistic.

[Jacob Hansen]

Yeah, but unless you want to assume that the Bible also teaches trinitarianism, which I don't know if you hold that position.

[Hayden Carroll]

Well, if you're. If Jesus is the same nature as the Father, you're immediately.

[Jacob Hansen]

They share nature.

[Hayden Carroll]

The trinitarian.

[Jacob Hansen]

No, because you can be like, you and I share nature.

[Hayden Carroll]

We don't share. Like I am not.

[Jacob Hansen]

We don't share an essence, but we share nature, though.

[Hayden Carroll]

Okay. So I would.

[Jacob Hansen]

In multiple ways.

[Hayden Carroll]

So I would view, like nature and essence to be synonymous in that sense. So you have one.

[Jacob Hansen]

Yeah, I wouldn't.

[Hayden Carroll]

One nature of God shared by three distinct persons. Father, son, spirit.

[Jacob Hansen]

But can that one being or God have contradictory nature, like contradictory attributes?

[Hayden Carroll]

They. They each share the. The same attributes. Yeah. So Jesus. Well, that's.

[Jacob Hansen]

That can't be true because the Father is uncreated. Right.

[Jeff the Call Me Ninja]

So is Jesus.

[Hayden Carroll]

In the beginning was the Word, and the words. Word was with God and the Word was God.

[Jeff the Call Me Ninja]

But Jesus has a created body, so he adds. So such a confusion of categories. It's amazing to me. These are the weakest. These are the weakest and I'm sorry, saddest attempts to refute the Trinity imaginable. It just goes to show that you just. You just don't do your homework, Hayden. You just don't do your homework to make that claim. Well, you know, he has a. He has a created body. It's like that's. But that's the, that's the whole story of redemptive history. That the one true and living God, the God who says there's none before him and none after him, that he doesn't know of any other God, that he's God alone in the heavens above and on the earth below. There is no other other that God in the person of Christ condescends and takes on flesh. That's John 1.

[Luke the Bear]

Yeah. Look down further where it says he tabernacled among us.

[Jeff the Call Me Ninja]

Like, is that A contradictory nature. Like you're literally talking about what the Bible tells you about God. I mean, that's. We didn't write that. John wrote that. John 1. 1 in Arkay in Hologos kai hologos in proston theon kai theos einhologos. In the beginning, as far back as you want to go, no reference point to stopping essentially forever ago, the Word was already there. Jesus was already there. He was toward the Father, face to face with the Father, toward the Father, in intimate relationship with the Father. From when? From the beginning, Forever ago. And he was God. He created all things into existence. And nothing's come into being that's come into being except through Him. And that doesn't work with Mormon theology either. That's not true. That cannot work with Mormon theology about Jesus. It says nothing's coming to be being apart from Jesus Christ, that he created everything. Everything. And then it says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. That's the story of redemption. That's not a refutation of the Trinity. Scripture is the one that tells us that. That there is one true and living God and that this God and the person of Christ, it's John one comes in tabernacles among us. That's not. That's not like a violation of laws of logic. It's not contradictory. It is one God taking on a human nature.

[Jacob Hansen]

Nature.

[Jeff the Call Me Ninja]

You may not like that revelation, but that's what the Scriptures teach. And that's also unique with Christianity and different in the Mormon conception of the Godhead, is that God has existed forever as God and God is Spirit. And that God does something unique in the redemptive story with the Gospel that is shocking to sinners, and that is that God condescends and takes on flesh. He enters into his own creation as a creature, a created thing, as a man. And so you have true God and true man. And that's just what the Scriptures teach. It's not contradictory. That's one God taking on another nature. Christ, the unique God, Man. That's what the text says.

[Luke the Bear]

Yep.

[Hayden Carroll]

Himself, human nature. So the eternal, eternal person, the Son, adds to himself humanity. So he still remains the Son from eternity's past. In the same nature of the.

[Jacob Hansen]

Is he fully God in his humanity today, though as a resurrected being?

[Hayden Carroll]

So he shares and he's one person united, uniting two natures. So he is.

[Jacob Hansen]

The hypostatic union's also not taught, though truly God.

[Hayden Carroll]

Well, the.

[Jeff the Call Me Ninja]

It's amazing to me, how could you even publicly make that claim without embarrassment? Honestly, you, you believe as a Latter Day Saint. You believe as a Latter Day Saint. Hayden, you say that you believe that Jesus is deity. Now you don't believe in the way the Bible teaches it, but you say that he is deity. And you also believe that he took on flesh. And so you say the hypostatic union is not biblical. It's not found in the Bible. But you do believe that the Bible presents both those things. So, so I'm wondering, wondering why the glaring contradiction. Hypostatic union doesn't exist in the Bible, but you believe both those things that he's God and that he took on flesh hypostatic union. So what do you mean the Bible doesn't teach that? Honestly, Hayden, whatever are you talking about? Because you affirm the Bible teaches both those things.

[Hayden Carroll]

Hypostatic union is just a theological term to try to make sense of biblical data.

[Jacob Hansen]

Well, I wouldn't say biblical data, but I've say of the.

[Hayden Carroll]

Well, the word Bible's not in the Bible. Right. So like.

[Jacob Hansen]

But I'm not even saying even the

[Hayden Carroll]

notion come up with these terms. The notion is there that Jesus is. That he is of the same essence as the Father.

[Jacob Hansen]

It's not.

[Hayden Carroll]

It is. Yeah.

[Jacob Hansen]

That comes later. That comes at Constantinople.

[Hayden Carroll]

No, no.

[Jeff the Call Me Ninja]

Oh really? Constantinople. Constantinople.

[Luke the Bear]

Remember the historical revisionism I mentioned?

[Jeff the Call Me Ninja]

Hayden, Hayden, Hayden, honestly, look, I'm not the expert on church history. There are scholars that I will never even reach their status on, on church history. History. But you certainly need to do your homework in the area of church history. Constantinople, and that it doesn't say it in the Bible that Jesus shares the same nature. I mean if you've studied even second century, even second century explanations or defenses of the deity of Christ and His full humanity, you would never make the claim that you just made. But let's, let's do something that Hayden says doesn't exist. He says it doesn't exist. So Hebrews chapter one. I read at the beginning of the episode today. It says in verse one, long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets. But in these last days he has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. He is the. Here it is. He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his. His nature. And he upholds the universe by the word of his power. And so Hayden just made the claim publicly that the Bible doesn't teach that anywhere that Jesus is the same nature as The Father, the same nature as God. So if you would, I challenge you to do this. Everyone go do this. You, we so great. The tools we have. What a gift from God. The tools we have today, just free access to all this stuff. Back, back. Not very long ago, you had to go in, like to book catalogs and you had to go to a bookstore and order this stuff and pay for it and wait for it to show up to your house and put it on your shelf to be able to have these resources and work through it with your fingertips. I used to have to carry these things with me in my backpack to the Mormon Temple. Now you just have it right in your phone, literally.

[Luke the Bear]

It's crazy.

[Jeff the Call Me Ninja]

You can just pull it right up. And so I would encourage you, go to Hebrews Chapter one, everybody. Hebrews Chapter one. And type this into Google. Type in Hebrews one, Greek interline. Hebrews one, Greek interlinear. That's what you. That's what you're looking for. And what you're going to see is something similar to what's on my screen right now. If you want to go ahead and have them see that, Gabe, so they can see. I know you probably won't be able to see the details, everybody, but you'll be able to see something like this. And what you have here is. You'll have. And see, I'm going to shoot my cursor there. Okay, you'll have all kinds of help here. So you've got the English translation underneath right here. Then you have the Greek text right here in the actual Greek text. And then you've got even some helps here where you've got it, you know, spelled out for you. Kai, you know, all of this is here. So now when you look here in Hebrews Chapter one, you'll find what Hayden says doesn't exist in the Bible. And this isn't the only place. So what you're looking through for here is right here, starting. Starting here, the radiance of his glory and the exact expression of the substance of him here. So this is where we're at. This is what Hayden says isn't in the Bible. It's not that. It's not in the Bible. It's that. Hayden, you don't know your Bible. And I don't think you've studied this because you wouldn't make the claim you did had you studied it. Apogasma, taste. Doxes, chi. Character. Am I mix skipping lines here. Character. There's the Greek text. The radiance of his glory and the exact expression of the substance of him. So this is character means an exact imprint or stamp. An exact imprint or stamp. Stamp. It's like the image pressed into a coin from a die. So it's an exact imprint. An exact imprint or stamp. It's identical. Not just similar, it's identical in detail. That's the point. Hypostasios. There's no question about this refers to being nature or substance. Being, being, nature or substance. This is. And Mormon scholarship will even agree to this. As a matter of fact, it's. I'm recalling it right now, actually. It's just hitting me. Go check this out, guys. Do it later. Go watch the debater. Listen, listen to the debate. It's on YouTube between Van Hale, Mormon apologist Van Hale and Dr. Walter Martin. It's occurring to me now that this exact conversation came up in that debate where Van Hale was proven to actually be lying about claims he was making about this text. And go, just go listen to it for the details of that. But Hail is refuted by Dr. Walter Martin on this point here alone. On Hebrews chapter one, there is no question about the meaning of apostasios. No question. Substance, being or nature. And the text couldn't be clear. And this isn't the only place that says it. We could do Colossians 2. We could do Colossians 2, which even makes a finer point on this point. But Hayden says publicly, publicly says the Bible doesn't teach that. That's nowhere in the Bible. Have you read Hebrews chapter one? Do you have some answer to character or hupastasios? Do you have some answer, some way to subvert what the text is clearly saying? A text that has been used historically from the beginning by Christians to demonstra that Jesus is of the same substance or nature of the Father. It's clear in the text. And by the way, that's not all. Hebrews 1 does. Hebrews 1 says all this about Jesus, character and hypostasios, nature, substance, being. And then it goes on to do what? What does it go on to do? It go on. It goes on to tell you about God the Father, telling all the angels to work, worship Jesus. And then it says in verse 8, but of the Son, the Father says, of the Son, he says, your throne, O God, is forever and ever. The scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness. Therefore God your God has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions. And you, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning. So Jesus is the same substance of the Father. He's worshiped. Only God is to be worshiped. Listen, if you have question about. About what that looks like in heaven, remember that in the book of Revelation, the apostle John, because he's so in awe of the angel, bows down to worship the angel. And the angel says, what? Do not dare do that. Do not offer any worship to me. Only worship God. Worship God. And here is the Father telling the angels to worship Jesus. And you say the Trinity is not in the the Bible. Really? Really, One God. None before, none after. In heaven above and on the earth below. The Father's called God. The Father is Yahweh. Jesus called God. Jesus, Yahweh. The Spirit is called God. The Spirit is Yahweh. What more do you need? And yet Hayden says this stuff's not in the Bible. The Bible doesn't teach Jesus his same nature. Hebrews, chapter one. Read it in English or Greek. Greek, whatever you like. Use the Hebrew interlinear. Go, go and. And research the terminology. Go, go. The helps are right there for you. Look at this. Go back to this again when you're here. This will help you. You just go. Gabe, go ahead and show my screen here. When you go here, there's so much here. Easy, easy work. You just click on character right there. It'll bring you right there and you can start doing Strong's Greek. You can do even more unpacking of this. Where else does it exist in the Bible or all that? There's. It's just so. It's. And guess what? This is amazing. It's free. It's all free.

[Jacob Hansen]

It's.

[Jeff the Call Me Ninja]

It's free. Obviously going to pay your phone bill, but all this is free for you. You just. You just got to go look it up, do your homework. Easily accessible. Do we have to do a break here, Luke?

[Luke the Bear]

Yeah, we're way past that.

[Jeff the Call Me Ninja]

Okay, quick commercial break, guys. Thank you for staying with us. Do it. Do all the things, guys, likes, shares, subscribes, all that. Let everyone know about this. If you're just getting into the show, watch the beginning. We offered a opportunity for both Jacob Hansen and Hayden Carroll to come to Apology Studios and sit down. We need to find the time to do it with Dr. James White and myself, and hopefully we can make that happen. But we'll be right back after this quick break.

[Luke the Bear]

This video is brought to you by Amtech Blades. We are very excited to be partnering with Amtech. Bill Rapier, longtime Navy SEAL, DevGur operator, amazing brother and Friend Looking for a battle axe to carry on your person to chop some wood. They've got you covered. Looking for a block blade to carry on you every day. Also got you covered. Look at this. I gotta check my mail. What do we got going on here? Oh, look how sharp that is. What is this? Oh, 5% off. You can go to amtac blades.com, put apology in the coupon code, get 5% off your order and he will match that and give 5% to end abortion now. Again, amtec blades.com we're grateful for them. Check them out.

[Unidentified Guest]

Hey Bonds and you live is finally here. Join me on June 29th for our very first live session available exclusively to all Access members at Apologia Studios. As you work through the incredible lectures of Dr. Greg Bonson, you're bound to have questions about apologetics, theology, philosophy and the Christian faith. That's exactly what bonsing you live is for once a month, I'll be hosting an interactive live stream where you could engage directly with me, ask your questions and dive deeper into the topics that you're studying. Whether you're new to presuppositional apologetics or looking to sharpen your understanding of the Christian worldview, this is your opportunity to learn, to interact and to grow alongside a community of like minded believers. So join me on June 29th for our first Bonson U Live exclusively at

[Jeff the Call Me Ninja]

apologiastudios.com Perfect timing, Luke. Got a little bathroom break. You, you arrived right on time, dude.

[Hayden Carroll]

That's pretty good.

[Jeff the Call Me Ninja]

That's impressive actually. It's impressive that we can do that. So. All right guys, we're finishing up the episode today. Just going to do a little bit more here with Hayden Carroll versus Greg Sukert. And again, go check out Greg's channel, good friend of ours. Love Greg. And let's get right back to the discussion.

[Hayden Carroll]

That's not true at all. In fact, where does the Bible say

[Jacob Hansen]

they're of the same essence?

[Jeff the Call Me Ninja]

Well, again, that word again, if you're just joining, just did that in Hebrews chapter one. We could do Colossians chapter two as well. And I think that we can bring that up. I'd love to bring that up actually, if we have a conversation and I hope, hope that Hayden is ready to go to the Greek text itself as well to say that this, to see the precision, the precision of the language itself, it cannot be overcome and it's been used historically by the Christian church from the beginning. So when Hayden says like where, where, where, where does the Bible teach that if you knew anything about the Bible and church history, you would be answering the question yourself. I know that Christians have always gone to Hebrews, chapter 4:1, to Colossians 2. But here's my response to that. You're saying, well, it's nowhere in the Bible. It's nowhere in the Bible. From the beginning, you can see Christians using this and appealing to this. There's just no way out of it.

[Jacob Hansen]

The notion, even.

[Hayden Carroll]

The notion, yeah. So all that is applied to Yahweh in the Old Testament is applied to Jesus in the New Testament. So Yahweh in the Old Testament says, I am the first and the last.

[Jacob Hansen]

Sure.

[Hayden Carroll]

Jesus in the New Testament says, I am the first and the last.

[Jacob Hansen]

Sure. He's a representation of his Father. Absolutely. I don't have a problem saying that.

[Hayden Carroll]

No, He. He is the same like He. He.

[Jacob Hansen]

It doesn't say they're the same being, though. That's what I'm saying. That's a theological inference that you're making on the text. Well, because you're a trinitarian.

[Hayden Carroll]

Well, they're just.

[Jeff the Call Me Ninja]

Well, because the text. Because the text. It's a theological inference imposed upon the text. Or, or could it be also. Hayden, could it be that the text says what it says? Now, I know you don't believe that God can speak infallibly through fallible men. And so you don't believe the Bible is infallible. You believe that it's filled with errors. And you, you reject a lot of stuff in the Bible saying that didn't really happen. And so we know that's your position, but it's actually the text. Christians are bound to the text. The word of God, the revelation of God is supposed to be the grounding for the beliefs that we have. Right. And you can see that throughout church history as well, some of the giants of the faith saying exactly that. Augustine says it, Athanasius says it doesn't matter what church councils say and everything else. And pastors, bishops, no matter how many, how renowned they are, they are to be tested by the measuring rod of, of Scripture itself. And so the text tells us about God, and we're to develop our. Our theological position based upon what the text says. Right. We're not imposing upon it. And the text says there's only one God. The text says there's none before and none after. The text says that God is the first and the last, that he's the same yesterday, today, and forever. The text says that. And the text calls the Father God, and the text calls Jesus God. And the text calls the Holy sp, Spirit God. And isn't it interesting that in the Old Testament, Yahweh is called the first and the last, but in the New Testament, Jesus says he's the first and the last. He's the beginning and the end. He's the Alpha and the Omega, he's the Almighty. That's what the text says.

[Luke the Bear]

Right.

[Jeff the Call Me Ninja]

And so what conclusions do you come to? Well, if you're bound by the text, you come to the conclusion of the Trinity, one God, three eternal persons. That's what the text clearly teaches. And there's just, again, I've said this a number of times. There's no way out of this.

[Dominion Wealth Representative]

This.

[Jeff the Call Me Ninja]

There's no way out of this. And so we're actually getting our understanding of Jesus being the same substance or being or nature as God, because Hebrews Chapter one, Colossians Chapter two, those texts say what they say. They're in the Bible. And guess what? I have news for you, Hayden and Jacob. These texts are in your Bible. Your quad is the King James Version, and the same text that I'm appealing to are there in the King James Version. They're also in your Bible. And, and so again, you're going to have to deal with these things other than saying, well, it's just not. It doesn't exist there. It doesn't exist. It's not in the Bible. You're imposing that upon the Bible. No, you're clearly imposing your system upon the Bible. You've done it already in this episode with Greg where you said, well, that means that's referring to the Council of Gods. Where is that in the text? You're imposing that on the text. Where is that in the text itself?

[Hayden Carroll]

It's not there persons. Right, because the Son is praying to the Father, but then the Son is also the first and the last. So that's the how. That's how things like the hypostatic union come into place to try to explain these things. How can the same person who prays to the Father, clearly a separate person, also gets called the same thing that Yahweh is called in the ultimate person

[Jacob Hansen]

because he's able to perfectly represent his Father in the same way that the angel of the Lord in the Old Testament. Who was it before? Shoot, I can't remember. You probably know where he represents himself as Yahweh. He says, I am Yahweh. Yahweh. And then. Or, or is it, or is it in Revelation? Is it John? I can't remember which one it is. But there, maybe it's in Second Samuel, like I, I should have came prepared with it. But the angel says I'm Yahweh and then he falls down, I forget which prophet it was. And the angel says, oh, like I'm not actually Yahweh, I'm speaking as if I am Yahweh. What?

[Luke the Bear]

I think he's combining some situations there.

[Hayden Carroll]

Hayden,

[Jeff the Call Me Ninja]

look, I love and respect you as an image bearer of God, but, but you are criticizing Christian theology and ultimately the biblical text at many points on the basis of such a shabby understanding of the scriptures and these moments in the text. Yes, actually one of the glorious things about the Trinity is the consistency seen throughout scripture. For example, example the Christophanies in the Old Testament where the angel of Yahweh shows up and I know the word angel throws. People just think messenger. The messenger of Yahweh. The messenger of Yahweh shows up and it's clearly God himself. The angel of Yahweh receives worship. Receives worship. Doesn't block people from worshiping him. Receives worship. The angel of Yahweh is clearly God. Read, read the story of Abraham's offering Isaac on the altar. Altar. Read that story and see the angel of the Lord shows up and it's clearly Yahweh himself because he says to Abraham, you haven't withheld your only son from me. Well, who said to sacrifice his son? To whom? It was God who said sacrifice your son to me. And then the angel of Yahweh shows up and says, you haven't withheld your only son from me. Don't do anything, don't harm the boy. And so there's these amazing moments where you see like oh man, that was like a dimly lit room. The Jews couldn't have possibly fully understood that. But the light comes on the new color covenant in the New Testament and spreads light across all those texts in the Old Testament where you have literally the pre incarnate Christ showing up, interacting with God's people, receiving worship. It's just, it's a powerful, powerful.

[Luke the Bear]

Wrestled with Jacob.

[Jeff the Call Me Ninja]

They wrestled with Jacob. I mean you, you, it's just amazing. Actually if I would encourage you guys, if you're a Christian and you haven't got a chance to study the Christophanies of the Old Testament and just see just how powerful those stories are and how it just must have just tripped Jews up like wait a second, there's only one God. But like this is God showing up and like we're worshiping him and like, well how's this all working out like, I mean, and the New Testament comes and you go, oh, oh, I get it. One God, three eternal persons. It's revelation that comes in. It just sheds so much light on the Old Testament revelation. But yeah, do that guys. If you haven't, have you had a chance to do that? Do that. Go study the Christophanies of the Old Testament. It'll blow your mind.

[Luke the Bear]

There's some good books on it too,

[Jeff the Call Me Ninja]

some great books on it. Okay, let's go a little further.

[Hayden Carroll]

Faith is a monotheistic. Yeah, but we're not Jews though, so you can't. Well what I'm saying. But we inherit the tradition of the scripture.

[Jacob Hansen]

I don't, I don't inherit the traditions.

[Hayden Carroll]

So you don't use the Old Testament. You don't use the Old Testament.

[Jacob Hansen]

I, well, first of all, the Jews in Jesus, they didn't have a set canon like we do today. It was largely disputed. They maybe had the.

[Jeff the Call Me Ninja]

What? What? Okay, I challenge anybody to do this. It's amazing because look, just look at the words of Jesus. How many times does Jesus, don't we want to have Jesus view on this? Not Hayden Carroll's, not Jeff Durbin's, but Jesus view on this? How many times throughout the gospel narratives do you see Jesus challenging the Jews and the Jewish leadership, the covenant breaking Jews? How many times do you see him challenging them? Saying things like you err not knowing the scriptures, like what is the challenge in the New Testament? What do the scriptures say? What does Paul say? In Romans chapter three, what does Paul say? Look, watch this. Hayden does not believe what scripture says about this. Let's make this very clear. Hayden does not believe what God says in his own word about this subject because Hayden doesn't seem to know what Romans chapter three says. And I'll take the inspired apostle, the apostle Paul over Hayden, Carol, any day of the week. And in Hebrews, sorry, Romans chapter 3, the apostle Paul says, well then what benefit is there to being a Jew? And Paul says much in every way. He says, first of all, they were entrusted with the oracles of God. They were entrusted with the very oracles of God. So the Apostle Paul believed that God entrusted the Jews with his very word. But Hayden says they didn't know what it was. They didn't know what it was. Paul says they were entrusted. This a benefit of being a Jew. Ready? The benefit of being a Jew had Hayden is that they had the scriptures were entrusted with them and knew what they were. If you took Hayden's perspective on this, then Paul's argument literally means nothing because you'd be able to say to Paul wait wait wait Paul wait. They were entrusted with the oracles of God The Jews don't even know what their scriptures are. So Paul your point is fake, it's false, it's not true Or Paul's point was true. They were entrusted with the oracles of God. Or how about Jesus another example Jesus on the road to a man Emmaus When Jesus is resurrected from the dead and he's with the sad SAP disciples there going we thought he was a Messiah we thought he was going to redeem Israel all the rest what does Jesus say to them? Say to them he says slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken and then what does he do? It takes them from the beginning of the Scriptures to the end of the Old Testament showing all the places that the Bible talked about him. So Jesus believed that they were obligated to believe and understand the scriptures that had been given to them. Paul says that the Jews were entrusted with the oracles of God and Jesus condemned and confronted people for not believing the scriptures that they had. Final point when Hayden makes the absolute ignorant claim that in Jesus time the Jews didn't know what the scriptures were I would just challenge you Anybody go and study first century detail on the Jews and them laying up their scriptures in the Jewish Temple in the time of Jesus what was laid up in the Jewish Temple? Our Old Testament Our Old Testament books the Jews today their Old Testament books Protestants and Jews today share the same canon and isn't it interesting that Protestants and Jews share the same canon that was the books that were stored up in the second Jewish temple during Jesus day and so when Hayden says they didn't even know they were disputing over these things. Oh is that why they had the books in the the temple? Is that why they had our Old Testament in the temple itself? They didn't know Paul's wrong. They weren't entrusted with the oracles of God Jesus is wrong to chastise them for not understanding the scriptures that what they didn't know about or they oh there's disputes on this. What wasn't in the Jewish temple ready was this was the the apocrypha. The apocryphal works were historical writings known by the Jews known by Christians some historical value but not divinely inspired understood to be that way. The apostles never quoted from the apocrypha ever as what does the scripture say or with the divine formula never. Neither did Jesus but the Jewish Scriptures were laid up in the second Jewish temple. They knew what their Bible was. What are you talking about? What are you talking about?

[Jacob Hansen]

Or the Tanakh. But the, the text that they had is not the same text probably that you use today.

[Hayden Carroll]

Well, they had this up to. So she noticed.

[Jeff the Call Me Ninja]

Do you notice the, the. The word Probably? Probably. Probably. So you, you make this little seas of doubt, bold claim, this audacious claim, and you say it's probably not. What is. What does that mean? Probably not? Like where's, where's, where's. Where's the details? Where's the facts? Where's the historical evidence? Where's the biblical evidence to make these claims? Hayden doesn't have enough respect for his audience to actually give them the evidence. He'll just make the claim and, and hope someone doesn't challenge him on it. And then you've got some unsuspecting young Mormon that just memorizes what Hayden says and starts spitting that out himself, just sharing the same ignorance. I mean, this is honestly just another episode, another episode of Hayden making claims that he couldn't possibly back up with the historical or biblical record and, and saying with so much confidence, Hayden, so much confidence that you, that you say these things and you just do not know or understand.

[Luke the Bear]

A lot of pontificating.

[Jeff the Call Me Ninja]

A lot of pontificating. All right, guys, I think that's a good enough episode for today. Again, if you're just getting into the episode, we're trying to find time to squeeze in a discussion between Jacob Hansen and Hayden Carroll and myself and Dr. James White here at Apology of Studios. We hope to make that happen in the next two months or so. We got to try to find some way to coordinate it with Dr. White, schedule, my schedule, and the guys themselves. And hopefully we can do that. Dr. White has even tougher schedule than I have over the next two months, but I think we can make it work. And so there's the invitation. Come to Apologia Studios. Let's sit down and let's have a dialogue. Not just about one topic, but let's talk about a number of different things. We hope that it'll be beneficial to both the Christian church and to the Latter Day Saint community and hopefully be an enduring blessing for many years to come. And so I want to point everyone to go to apologiastudios.com give help us to get to our goal. Please, everybody. We have so much more coming, so much more content and engagement tools coming to the website to bless you, to help you. Don't forget to sign up for all access, be a partner with us in ministry and go to apologiastudios.com I think it's store and go to the store, get yourself some shirts, some T shirts, all the stuff that's there. The tracks are all there. You can distribute these tracks for Mormons, gospel tracts, all of it's there.

[Luke the Bear]

Pastor Luke yes, of course we always want to thank Dominion Wealth. You saw their ad at the beginning. If you tuned in from the start, we're grateful for them and their partnership. You can go to Reform Money and get a free consultation from them. Love those guys a ton. And of course heritage defense.org if you homeschool your kids, please sign up for Heritage Defense. It's very, very affordable. Heritage defense.org put apology in the coupon code. Get your first month free.

[Jeff the Call Me Ninja]

And I'm going to remind everybody that I'm going to be in Ohio not next Tuesday. You have to forgive me the moment I'm trying to remember the city, I just know I'm landing in Cleveland. So we're in the eastern side of Ohio, been there a number of times to build the network of pastors and leaders. They're going to work together with us in this bill of abolition, the abolition of abortion. And so it'll be Tuesday, I think at 5:30 for dinner and 6:00 start time. I'm going to put underneath this episode in a few minutes here, the link for you to come and sign. Sign up. If you're a pastor, Christian leader, believer in Ohio that wants to help with these bills, we need your help. Come join together with us, pray with us and let's talk together about what we're doing to move forward to support this bill of abolition in the state of Ohio. And so that's all coming next Tuesday. Again, I'll put the description underneath there. Everyone and I want to thank you guys so much for your love, your prayers, especially to all of you guys. For all access with us in this ministry, you make it all possible. Thank you again to everybody who gave financially so far to the fundraiser we're doing to basically upgrade and improve and give you all new things with Apologia studios. Go to apologiastudios.com give to help us to get to our goal. We're just, we're blessed and humbled to be a part of a ministry like this. And I want to ask if you guys would also share this episode to get the word out about this conversation we think would be beneficial to the church between Jacob Hayden, Dr. White and myself. I'm the ninja. That's Luke the bear.

[Luke the Bear]

Peace out.

[Jeff the Call Me Ninja]

We'll catch you next week right here on Apologia Radio.