578. Steven Anderson Loses It In "Sermon"

Summary

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Apologia Radio Ep. 577: "Steven Anderson Loses It In 'Sermon'"

Host: Jeff Durbin
Date: July 17, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode addresses the recent public meltdown of controversial pastor Steven Anderson following serious abuse allegations made by his four eldest children. Jeff Durbin breaks down Anderson’s emotionally charged sermon, providing theological, pastoral, and ethical commentary. Durbin examines how Christians should respond biblically to public accusations, the responsibilities of a pastor, and the dangers of personality-driven church leadership.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Stage: Allegations and Public Scrutiny

• Abuse Accusations: Four eldest Anderson children (Miriam, John, Isaac, Solomon) have come forward with allegations of long-term child and spousal abuse by Steven and his wife.
• Public Responses: The claims have gone viral; Anderson's reaction has included public denials, anger, and a breakdown in the pulpit.
• Balanced Examination: Durbin stresses the biblical requirement to weigh both sides (Deut. 19:15, 1 Tim. 5:19), neither dismissing nor blindly accepting the accusations, but seeking truth through multiple witnesses.

“Scripture tells us that when one person makes their case, it sounds true until another comes to examine them.” — Jeff Durbin (15:13)

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2. Pastoral Integrity & Misuse of the Pulpit

• Sermon Breakdown: Anderson’s so-called sermon is critiqued as emotionally venting rather than biblical teaching.
• Congregational Abuse: Durbin argues that Anderson’s meltdown is an "abuse of the people of God," as he uses pulpit time to air grievances and vent personal pain.

“This is him going up and pouring out his pain before his congregation. So I view this as an abuse of the people of God.” — Jeff Durbin (17:13)

• Failure to Shepherd: A pastor should feed and shepherd the flock, not center the ministry on himself.

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3. Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Anderson’s Public Meltdown

• Disowning His Children:

  “I never want to see them ever again…Hell, no. Absolutely not. I never want to see them again, man.” — Steven Anderson (16:17)

• Self-Confessed Bitterness:

  “I have become a very angry and bitter person on the inside... because of what my four evil eldest children have done to me.” — Steven Anderson (19:31)

• Biblical Justification for Anger:

  “Proverbs 17:21 says this. He that begetteth a fool doeth it to his sorrow. And the father of a fool has no joy. And you know what? That is the reality that I live.” — Steven Anderson (21:10)

• Desire for Vengeance:

  “I want God to punish them in a spectacular public way so that I can be vindicated and so the Lord can show that He’s on my side.” — Steven Anderson (64:22)

Durbin’s Pastoral Reflections

• Call for Resignation:

  “My response is, you need to step down... You have to step down for the good of your own mind, heart, soul; for the good of your family and your own sanity... I don't doubt that Anderson and his wife love their children. But you should step down.” — Jeff Durbin (43:15)

• Pain’s Role in Ministry:

  “My duty in that moment is not to make much of myself and to just vomit all over the congregation, but my duty is to feed Christ’s sheep... That place [the pulpit] is reserved for the glory of God and the people of God.” — Jeff Durbin (65:07)

• Weighing Evidence:

  “When you hear about the people who are opposed to Anderson and say that he’s disqualified from ministry, they actually end up being the people who know him best. And that is noteworthy.” — Jeff Durbin (36:45)

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4. Biblical Framework for Handling Accusations

• Witnesses Required: Durbin explicates the biblical standard:
  • Two or three witnesses required (Deut. 19:15; 1 Tim. 5:19).
  • Such claims don’t prove guilt, but do require serious investigation.
  • The church must not uncritically side with either party, but pursue truth and justice.

“In God's law, you have preservation and protection of people... you can't receive a charge against somebody unless it's on the basis of two to three witnesses.” — Jeff Durbin (22:01)

• Public vs. Private Resolution: Heavy criticism of Anderson’s decision to address and attack his children and dissenters in public instead of handling matters privately and biblically with accountability.

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5. Warning Against Personality-Driven Churches

• Collapse of “Man of God” Model:
  • When churches are built on a single personality, crises tend to implode publicly and harmfully.
  • Sustainable, healthy churches are centered on Christ and Scripture, not leaders’ charisma or ego.

“When you build a church on the basis or foundation of a personality, that’s what happens... it will collapse under its own weight for sure.” — Jeff Durbin (52:11)

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6. Painful Fallout & Effect on Family

• Anderson refuses reconciliation and insists on public vindication, expressing anger towards his estranged children and accusing them of ruining his life and ministry.
• Durbin warns that Anderson’s words are deeply damaging not just to himself but especially to his remaining children and congregation.

“Now your daughters are being brought into this situation publicly and you're saying things that are harmful even to your daughters... You're creating anxieties in your church body and in your children.” — Jeff Durbin (61:50)

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Important Timestamps

• 1:20–2:40: Opening exchange: Jesus and the public square; Anderson’s worldview critique.
• 9:00–15:00: Durbin sets up Anderson’s background, controversy, and introduction to the allegations.
• 12:24–14:43: Clips/trailer: Anderson children outline abuse allegations.
• 16:17–23:00: Anderson’s “crash out” sermon begins; Durbin commentary on the misuse of pulpit time.
• 34:08–36:45: Anderson lists all who have “betrayed” him; Durbin notes these are the people who know him best.
• 42:34–47:32: Past congregational losses; Durbin’s urgent call for Anderson to step down.
• 50:13–56:13: Durbin examines personality-driven ministry pitfalls.
• 56:57–74:17: Anderson’s demand for public vindication; refusal to reconcile; calls for God’s vengeance.
• 74:17–77:53: Durbin’s closing thoughts: Anderson should step down for the good of all.

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Conclusions & Takeaways

• Anderson’s Position: Doubles down on his innocence, insists on public vindication or disaster for his opponents, refuses all reconciliation, and vents anger on family and congregation.

• Durbin’s Recommendations:

  1. Anderson is biblically and pastorally disqualified; should step down.
  2. Congregation and broader church need to prioritize biblical standards, not personality or loyalty to a leader.
  3. Christians must approach public allegations wisely—listening to multiple witnesses, refusing to shield leaders from biblical scrutiny, and refusing to rush to judgment.

• Call for Prayer: Durbin invites listeners to pray for Anderson, his family, his church, and for true healing and repentance.

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Final Word:

“Step down for the well being of yourself, your wife, your marriage, your children. Step down for the well being of this body of professing believers. Step down. Your heart's not in it. You don't want to do it. You're making demands of God... That means you have to step down.” — Jeff Durbin (74:17)

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This summary is structured to provide a clear, chronological flow and highlight both critical analysis and emotional moments, with speaker attribution and timestamps for key quotes and segments.

Transcript

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[Jeff Durbin]

I would say if the authorities didn't want us involved in the public square, they ought not to have crucified Jesus

[Stephen Anderson]

in the public square.

[Jeff Durbin]

Use humanistic principles with the same idea,

[Stephen Anderson]

same end, I would say.

[Jeff Durbin]

What's the problem with stardust bumping into stardust in the cosmic picture?

[Stephen Anderson]

No, there's no problem in the cosmic picture.

[Jeff Durbin]

It won't matter.

[Stephen Anderson]

No, Mr. President, you are not protecting reproductive freedom. You are authorizing the destruction of freedom

[Jeff Durbin]

for one million little human beings every year. I'm sorry, my friends, but I am tired to seeing Jesus presented as a weak beggar. He is a powerful savior. And the Gospel is not a suggestion,

[Stephen Anderson]

it is a command. Reverend Mola, don't you sympathize with that?

[Jeff Durbin]

I sympathize with every single human heart wishing to know the one true and living God. But I believe there's only one way that that can happen. Through Jesus Christ. And the Gospel is about repenting of

[Stephen Anderson]

sin, not celebrating it.

[Jeff Durbin]

Right now you're on the threshold of an amazing adventure. We will explore this spiritual abyss. You have not experienced this before.

[Sponsor Representative (Amtech Blades)]

You're gonna love it.

[Jeff Durbin]

The Lord said unto my Lord, sit at my right hand until I begin your enemies a footstool for your feet. Psalm 110. 1. What's up, everybody? Welcome back to another episode of Apologia Rad. This is the gospel heard around the world. I'm Jeff the Callman, a ninja. You can get [e-mail] that's a P O L O G. Iastudios.com if you haven't done it, go over to apologiastudios.com there's so much there for you from Bonson U. Get your free account and get top tier theological education. One of the greats of Christian church history, Dr. Greg Bonson. We have his entire library of seminary lectures, college lectures, his teachings from church, his public debates, all that is there for you guys. Bonsonu@ apologiastudios.com completely for free as a gift from the Bonson family through us to you. Go get that. Also all the past episodes of Provoked Cultists, Sheologians, Apologia Radio, everything there and of course, All Access. When you guys partner with us in this ministry through All Access, you make every bit of gospel proclamation and teaching that comes from this ministry available to the world. You're part of this ministry with us. And when you're All Access, you get all kinds of additional content like Apologia Academy, me, full episodes of Collision after shows and much, much more is coming for you guys. All Access getting a complete upgrade right now. We're in the process. You're going to be hearing, by the way, through this episode. You will hear it and I'm sorry if it's annoying, but it's kind of a good sound. You're going to be hearing the banging of nails and hammers and you're going to hear probably some saws going off and all that stuff. We have been in the process right now of completely transforming Apologia Studios and All Access. New tools, new things to equip you and your family and your church to what you believe, why you believe it, and be able to articulate that to the world. So much is coming by the grace of God. We're just so thankful. But it's happening right now. So next door, right now, there's demolition of an old set so that the new set can be built. We have so much coming for you guys. More cultural engagement, more to equip you, more to help you to know Jesus and to love Jesus more. That's all happening right now. If you guys want to be a part of this process, it's the first time we've done this for Apologia Studios in its history. A big fundraiser like this to get us to this next stage, next level for all of you guys to really benefit from everything here at Apologia Studios. And so if you guys want to be a part of that, please do@apologia studios.com give you can help us to get to our goal. I we are so excited and we are working hard to get everything underway for everybody right now. Thank you by the way, to everybody who's already participated with us in this and been a part of helping us to raise these funds. We're so grateful for you guys. We're going to get started today and we're going to do this episode. I'm actually pre recording this for everybody right now because we have a busy week right now getting everything ready for you at Apologia Studios. And I'm also going to see my son graduate from Marine Corps boot camp. And so a busy week for us, but we're gonna get started. I wanted to talk about two issues today that I think are valuable. We always want to do content. The question we ask is, is this going to be glorifying to God, good for the church, and is this conversation we're having going to be meaningful and valuable for the church, for the saints, 100 years from now? So that's sort of the filter have as we work through like what are we going to talk about on Apologia Radio? How are we going to do something that's a benefit to the people of God into the world? And so I wanted to do two conversations today. One is about Stephen Anderson. Many of you guys know Stephen Anderson. He originally he was known as the pisseth against the wall guy. If you don't know what that means after the show today, just go on YouTube and I think they're probably still there. The Pisseth against the wall sermon is what sort of launched Stephen and early on in his career, his hatred for Calvinism, his despising of Reformed theology, his denigrating the gospel that the apostles preached, his denial of the call to repentance and faith in Jesus. He is a false teacher, always has been, and does not preach the gospel that the apostles preached. There's much truth in what Stephen Anderson says. As a matter of fact, there are many things that he says that I completely agree with him on and I admire the guy. Sharp mind. But he does preach false gospel without question. And he's of course been embroiled in controversy many times over. He's been banned from certain countries. He's said some highly controversial things that put him in the spotlight in the media. And he's attacked many godly men and teachers and preachers, from Dr. James White to others. He has actually gone after me and my own family. He. He did a sermon. This is we're going to talk about today too is, is when these nifb dudes preach sermons on a Sunday, you wonder like, where's the sermon at? It's more like personal, you know, pontification. And it's just, it's odd. You're gonna see that in a moment here. But he, he's preached sermons on me, on my wife. He's called my wife a drunk. He doesn't even know her. I'm not sure how he would even know rounders going, huh? And me. And he's made all kinds of wild claims about me. So. But I. This is all over the media right now and all over the news. And so I wanted to try to address it in a balanced way, in a biblical way. Like how are we now supposed to think about a situation like this where you've got claims being made against Steven Anderson by his eldest children who are now out of the home. You've got Miriam, his daughter John, Isaac and Solomon, 4 of, of his eldest children who now publicly coming out and making claims against Anderson and against his wife regarding real actual abuse and not discipline, but actual abuse. And not only to them as children, but they've also made claims about spousal abuse from Anderson to his wife. And this is stuff they say that's been ongoing, many, many years ongoing. And so that happened last year. Miriam and John and Isaac came out in some public interviews making claims against their father and against their mother. And these were serious charges and they were very serious about making those charges, soberly making those charges, at least all you can see in terms of how they were coming forth with it. And so that came out last year. Anderson has responded publicly to the claims against the children. So you can hear both sides right now. It is unfortunate and sad. I'm very sad for him and his family and for the children that this controversy is happening that is broadcast all over social media. But it is what it is. It's out there now as children want their witness and their claims to be heard by, by the public regarding their own father and mother. And so, so we're going to examine it because now we also have the opportunity to listen to both sides. But today I'm going to bring you into maybe what you haven't seen yet, and that is Stephen Anderson's crash. He preached a sermon. I'd say, let me do this properly here. He preached a sermon, I believe it was two Sundays ago. And right away it was just launched into the atmosphere and everyone could see it. And so it was a crash out. It was clearly a Crash out. Honestly, I felt sad for the man. He's clearly in a lot of pain, and I'm gonna let you hear some of that. But I just sort of wanted to address in the age of the Internet and social media and the public square in your pocket and, you know, being able to hear these things, I wanted to address, hopefully, in a balanced and biblical way, as to how we should think about something like this, where you have public charges being made by the four eldest children of Stephen Anderson, and you have his. His response to those charges, so you can examine both of those things. How do you. How do we manage that? And so I'm gonna do that. And hopefully, if we, if we can, we're gonna have time to respond to some Comments made by Dr. John MacArthur. Millennialism, theonomy, and I think Christian nationalism is the question that was given to him. And I think that'd be a valuable conversation to have. So first, I'm going to play for you, if you haven't seen it yet, I'm going to play for you the man of God trailer. Just to give you a sampling of. Of if you're new to this, like, what's going on, or if you saw the crash out from Stephen Anderson in his Sunday sermon, you'll at least get a better idea of, like, why the crash out. There's. There's. There's a reason for it. So this is man of God, the official trailer for the man of God documentary. And it's on Stephen Anderson, and it's his children and their testimonies against him and his wife. So here we go.

[Stephen Anderson]

Isaac Anderson, scene two, take one.

[Jeff Durbin]

Mark, so many people experienced your dad's influence all over the world, but what was your experience of him at home?

[Stephen Anderson]

With my dad at home, he was an extremely angry, abusive and dangerous person. My dad is somebody who is very narcissistic, very obsessed with control, very obsessed with power. All he was is somebody God used. God can use somebody else. God appoints leaders. God takes them down. Well, I mean, it's public perceptions that is a loving husband and father with a happy marriage. The reality is they have separate bedrooms, they hate each other. My dad was very abusive to my mom. My parents never got along. My mom was extremely abusive to her kids while outwardly putting out this front to being this happy mom and the joys of having a lot of kids. And that was a completely different story at home.

[Jeff Durbin]

He wasn't just minorly hitting her, he was beating her very severely with an electrical cable. He was hitting her head into things. It was not anything that could be mistaken for some sort of fetish or whatever.

[Stephen Anderson]

My mom spends probably about 70 to

[Jeff Durbin]

80% of her waking hours enraged.

[Stephen Anderson]

It starts at about 6 in the morning.

[Jeff Durbin]

The screaming starts.

[Stephen Anderson]

You wake up during her screaming at this. That. My dad's outbursts were rare, but his were considerably more violent than hers.

[Jeff Durbin]

Everyone sees him this way and they know that he gets crazy on. On screen and they know that he's in the pulpit that way. But for some reason the rest of us just didn't see that.

[Stephen Anderson]

They're not going to be like seeing everything that's happening behind the pulpit through the lens of what's happening at home. Right.

[Jeff Durbin]

It's not like he was really, really good, but then he had this downfall.

[Stephen Anderson]

Yeah. He and his sermon is talking about, I would if I'm disqualified now. I was disqualified when I made after the Tribulation or whatever. Like, yeah, if we're going to play that game. Yeah. We don't need people like my dad to represent Christianity. Because currently, if you look up new ifb, it's going to be basically allegations

[Jeff Durbin]

of wife beating and people making excuses for wife beating.

[Stephen Anderson]

It's bad. Look, that's why the bishop must be blameless, not the bishop must be good at preaching. The two greatest days in the new IFB are the day get in and the day get out. I'm the man of God here. I meet the qualifications, I run this church. And if you don't like it, then get out.

[Jeff Durbin]

So there you go. That's an example of the trailer. Now, if you didn't, if you haven't seen any of it there, there are many hours up right now of John, Isaac, Miriam and Solomon detailing their claims, their charges, their witness. And you can listen to all of their witness and testimony. That's all up right now. This is already in the public and so I'd encourage you to do so. If you saw this and you want to come to a biblical conclusion, a balanced, meaningful, biblical conclusion on it, it's all right. Now again, unfortunately, it's in the public square. It's available for you to listen to. And scripture does tell us that when one person makes their case, it sounds true until another one comes to examine them. So in a situation like this, it's good to say, okay, the children have made the charges. Steven Anderson has responded to the charges. You get to hear both. And I do want to just say again, I mean this sincerely. This is very sad. I am brokenhearted, honestly, for the children. I was very sad to see Stephen Anderson's crash out. And it was just really, really bad. And so I'm going to play some of it for you guys here, and we're going to try to work through it and think through, hopefully, some helpful commentary on how to properly examine this. Here we go.

[Stephen Anderson]

I never want to see them ever again. And people are like, oh, you need to just make things right with your children, Pastor Anderson. You just need to just swallow your pride, be the bigger person. Hell, no. Absolutely not. I never want to see them again, man. The title of my sermon this evening is why I do Not Want to Continue Pastoring. Why I do not Want to Continue Pastoring. Now, let me say this. First of all of all, I'm not quitting today, and I'm not even saying that I'm quitting at all. But I want to be very candid with you tonight about how I feel about things and what I'm going through. And, you know, God willing, I'm going to be back here on Wednesday night preaching, and I'm going to preach as many sermons as I can. But I want to tell you that I'm very upset about my situation. And if God does not intercede in my situation and fix my situation, then I do not want to continue, let me tell you.

[Jeff Durbin]

So the first thing I'll say,

[Stephen Anderson]

I

[Jeff Durbin]

don't think this is simply a Reformed thing. I mean, we're, you know, at Apologia Studios. We're Reformed, and in the Reformed tradition, historically orthodox in our view of God and Christ and the Word of God, all of that. But I don't. I don't think my initial struggle with this is simply because I'm Reformed. I think. I think generally speaking, Christians examining this would say, well, what's happening here? This is a pastor of a church. Church is gathered, and he's prepared a sermon that isn't a sermon. This is not him going to the text of the Bible and giving people the whole counsel of God, going through verse by verse, unpacking the meaning of the text, those sorts of things. This is him going up and pouring out his pain before his congregation. So I view this as an abuse of the people of God. I view this as a tremendous abuse of the people of God. Is it possible to have a controversy that's occurred and you've got to address that before your church body? Of course, absolutely. If you've been in ministry for any meaningful time at all, you recognize that there are things that occur within the church. Charges made against church members or even against the leadership or pastors Deacons, whatever the case may be. And you have to address those things for your church body. You do, okay, so there's nothing wrong with that whatsoever. But it's not a sermon. And oftentimes when you have situations like that, you're finding meaningful time and appropriate time to have those conversations outside of the gathering of the people of God, assembling for worship and, you know, creating a talk before your church body that you call a sermon that is really just you ranting and raving and insulting your children. And it's an abuse of the people of God. And so, again, I don't think that that's a problem of the reformed viewing something like this. I think everybody feels the ick when they listen to something like this called a sermon. And I think you're going to see why as this continues. Listen to this something.

[Stephen Anderson]

Over the past few years, I have become a very angry and bitter, bitter person on the inside, even though on the outside, you know, I'm showing up and smiling and doing the best that I can. I've become extremely angry because of what my four evil eldest children have done to me. And what they did is so sick and so evil and so wicked, and it makes me very angry. And I've become a very angry, bitter person.

[Jeff Durbin]

So the first thing I'll say is, there's nothing wrong with confessing failure as a man, as a Christian, as a pastor. Nothing wrong with that. As a matter of fact, it's a very good thing to confess the wrong, Confess failures, show that I'm a work in progress and all of that. But I don't get that this was happening here. This is not a pastor coming before the congregation and saying, look, I believe that I failed here part of my life. I'm, I'm grieved over it. I'm repentant of it, and I want to get free from this myself. You know, that's, that's a good thing to have a pastor who's, who's like that, who will confess to failures and shortcomings and, and make sure everyone realizes, look, we're all still a work in progress. We're all being sanctified. But that's, that's not what's really happening here. Right. I think everyone could see that he is angry and he's bitter and he wants, he wants everyone to know and he's venting. And so this isn't like a confession. I'm repenting of this. Help me. This is him venting before the church body and abusing the church in My mind and so not helpful on the day to day.

[Stephen Anderson]

I'm just saying, I'm just telling the truth tonight. Proverbs 17:21 says this. He that begetteth a fool doeth it to his sorrow. And the father of a fool has no joy. And you know what? That is the reality that I live. The father of a fool has no joy. And you know what? It is impossible for me to move on from this because even if I spend my entire day thinking about other things, I spend my entire day reading the Bible, studying, working, being busy with other things. Every single night I go to bed, I have dreams about this and I wake up every single morning and this is the first thing on my mind every single morning. If I take a nap in the afternoon, this is the first thing on my mind when I wake up, period. Because I can't control what's in my subconscious of this garbage.

[Jeff Durbin]

Now it would take numerous episodes, numerous episodes to engage with the timeline here as to when the first interview came out and the ones following. And as it escalated with Miriam, you know, essentially being in hiding from her family and then still coming out and doing things, it would take, it would take some time to work through all those details. But I don't really want to do that. I don't want to just go through every claim being made, all of that. But I will say that when this started off, when the children John, Isaac, Solomon and Miriam came out and started giving their testimony, initially there were many NIFB pastors who were circling the wagons and immediately the first thing is they were coming out and protecting Stephen Anderson, telling people not to watch the interviews and just devaluing the fact that you have not one, not two, not three, but four. Four of the eldest children of the Andersons all coming out in unity with, you know, their own stories of dramatic levels of abuse, but also stories where they were intersecting, where they had all together witnessed particular things, say, you know, a dramatic instance with Solomon where there was blood and you know, things like that. So their stories, you know, were. They had independent stories, but also had stories where they were, you know, speaking about the same event that they witnessed happening to one or the other of them. And so their stories were all together. And so you have that, you know, it's, and it's, that's important. So what is the standard Scripture says that you're to receive no accusation against an elder unless it's on the basis of two to three witnesses. Now what is that? That's the Apostle Paul speaking about the well known biblical law standard all the way back in Moses about you can't receive a charge against somebody unless it's on the basis of two to three witness. And now here's what's very, very important about this. That is the standard that made its way throughout history all the way through. I mean, it's in British common law, it's in American law. The assumption of innocence, like innocent until proven guilty, is the standard, supposed to be the standard in our justice system. It's not, not always innocent until proven guilty. And that's on the basis of biblical law. In the Christian worldview, you have to have two to three independent lines of witness and testimony. To even receive a charge against somebody, there has to be be evidence. There has to be actual evidence. And we can do a whole show talking about why two to three. And you have to be careful of people manipulating facts, working together. And so you need two to three because two of those people could actually be a little too close, could have corroborated a little too much. And so you need an additional line. But all that to say in God's law, you have preservation and protection of people. That's you, that's me, that, you know, we live in a world where people lie, people lie, people lie and they make false charges and make false claims against people. God's law is prepared for that. It even says in God's law that you have to have two to three witnesses to begin even the process of making charges against somebody and then bringing them to court. But it even assumes that in court, even when you have two to three independent lines, there's going to be cross examination, you're going to be able to hear from both sides. And there's even protection in the court in God's law, where if somebody makes is a false witness, right, they're literally, you know, spinning a fiction, a narrative to get this person in trouble and punished. There is provision in God's law to protect the victim in that case being falsely accused, saying that whatever the false witness is saying that is found to be wrong and false witness, that will be the charge against them to get the same punishment that they would have given to the person who is being being accused. So there's all these protections, but one of the primary protections at the start, and this is important, the Apostle Paul in the New Testament, under the new covenant, after the life, death and resurrection and ascension of Jesus, the Apostle Paul assumes that law of God after the ascension of Christ, the new covenant is in force, right? Christ is on his throne. It's in force. And Paul just assumes the abiding validity of the law of God in terms of accusations. Now that was a court thing, two to three witnesses. But Paul applies it in the regular, the regular life of the church in regard to, say, an elder. And by the way, it doesn't just count for elders, it counts for anybody, like. But receive no accusation against an elder unless it's on the basis of two to three witnesses. Now here's the thing, that's the standard. But does that mean, does that mean that because two or three people are making a claim that what they're saying is actually true and the answer to that is no, it means that when you have two to three witnesses, then you can begin to actually entertain the accusation. And now we begin that investigative process where we're now hearing from both sides, we're cross examining witnesses, we're trying to find is there more evidence here? But Paul, standard is receive no accusation against an elder unless it's on the basis of two to three witnesses. Well, here we go. Early on, when this controversy erupted with Anderson's children and they were giving their stories, their testimony, their evidence and their witness, many of the NAFB pastors were just saying, don't listen to these people. They were remarking on the fact that, you know, the children, the I'm, when I say children, these are, these are adults. Now that Anderson's children had done the initial interviews with a guy who was, you know, homosexual and you know, atheist and I think Satanist too. And they were like, you know, it's obvious that these people are lying because look who they gave the information to. And that was the charge was they're clearly working with Satan. Isn't it obvious to you all you shouldn't be listening to them. But one of the things that was clear as you listen to the, the adult children is that they were saying everything very, very, with a very sober mind. They were saying everything very grieved and they were saying everything as witnesses, individually, as children about their own experience, but also what they witnessed the other children experiencing in the home over many, many years. And so you have four witnesses that are actually the adult children of the Andersons, all with claims of dramatic levels of abuse from whipping with electrical cords, leaving cuts and injuries, spousal abuse, all kinds of things. Again, I can't go into all the details, but how are we supposed to handle something like that when you have the four eldest children giving charges of consistent abuse, of disqualifying behavior from Anderson over many years? Well, when you have the Four eldest children. It is improper for these NIFB pastors, as they did, and many of them are repentant of that now. Thank God for that. And they've now said, no, Anderson should step down from ministry. But initially they're saying, don't listen to them. You can't receive those testimonies. And the answer is, well, actually you can. It doesn't mean they're true. Like what John, Isaac, Solomon and Miriam have said. You know, they're their claims. And so you can investigate now. You can listen to both stories and all of them of that. It doesn't mean they're true, but it does mean, biblically speaking, you can receive them now and begin that process of justice and say, well, let me hear both sides. Does he have an answer like, is, is there a refutation coming from, from Anderson and his wife that refutes these claims? But it's, it's improper for any of these pastors to say, you shouldn't be listening to this. I think that the first response is, what was it, one adult child saying it? Do they all, what are they saying about that? Because I can't, I can't believe it on the basis of one witness. But when you have four children, four of them saying this happened over many years and many instances, they've all got their own individual stories and then stories where they can corroborate as witnesses. I saw that. Here's even more details about that story. You can listen at that point and say, well, I'm going to assume the innocence of both parties, the set of witnesses against Anderson, but also Anderson and his wife will assume their innocence until there is evidence of guilt. And so that means I can hear what are the charges, what are the claims, you know, hear from both sides, all of that. But my point is this. It is completely unbiblical, unjust, improper, out of order for anyone to say in protection and preservation of Anderson and his ministry. You don't need to listen to these children, you shouldn't listen to them. No, you've got four witnesses that are the eldest children of Anderson and his wife. You can receive that at this point. And here's the challenge with Anderson sort of on an island by himself when it comes to this, you know, there's, there's, you know, who, who within his church is able to, you know, confront the man of God and say, no, you know, we're gon to, we're going to have you take a break right now from ministry while we examine this as a church body and maybe even go outside of that. But you can, at this point, according to God's law, hear the testimony of the children and say, we can receive that to hear what they're saying. It doesn't mean we're accepting it as true. But now we also want to hear from you, what's your refutation of their charges? And their charges essentially is that he's disqualified, he's had disqualifying behavior for many, many years, and that he should step down from ministry. And they have a number of reasons why so this episode's brought to you by ion [e-mail] Go and check out the health benefits, the wellness benefits and longevity benefits of NAD treatments. 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[Stephen Anderson]

me to move on because multitudes of people continue to rub my nose in this every single day, 365 days a year. People online are every single day slandering me and lying about me. And it never stops. For the last 21 years of pastoring this church, I have dealt with false accusations and slander, death Threats, loss of jobs, multiple incidents of swatting at my house. False reports made to cps, receiving dangerous and gross things sent to me in the mail. Bank accounts cancelled, giving platforms cancelled, social media accounts deleted. Be constantly told that I'm evil. Constantly told that I'm an idiot. Zero respect from my fellow loser fundamental Baptist over the last 21 years. Zero respect from the sucky, lame, barely soul winning old IFB. Zero respect from them. Only lies, slander and trashing me. Never backing me up in a battle, never standing with me. The pastor who sent me has lied about me and slandered me nonstop for over a decade. Nothing but lies and slander and hate from my sending pastor. I've been labeled a hate preacher, a cult leader, trashed in the media. And you know what? For 21 years I have borne it all with a smile and said none of these things move me. None of them move me. Come at me, bro. And I have gone through a lot of persecution and a lot of stuff, but let me just say, you know, the things that have happened over the last two years are just too much. Because you know what? I have gone through a lot of persecution over the 20 years of pastor, but you know, it was sustainable. But I have been betrayed in the worst way by my only physical brother. And you know what? My poop stain of a brother, Clint, the evil piece of crap that is my brother Clint. You know the only way that he could have screwed me over worse and betrayed me worse would be, I think, to commit adultery with me, my wife. It's pretty much the only worst thing that that worthless piece of trash could have done. I've been betrayed by my only physical brother who I trusted, just totally betrayed me in the worst possible way. All four of my adult children have totally betrayed me. My best friend and fellow pastor, Roger Jimenez, David Berzins, who I did nothing but good for for 18 years, taught him everything, baptized him, got his wife saved, baptized him her. And him and his piece of trash wife have just betrayed me, slandered me, evil, rotten people. A whole nother long is, I mean we could list all the. So,

[Jeff Durbin]

so you can see this is, it's sad, it's abusive to the people that he's speaking to who have come to church to be fed and to get a sermon and to get the word of God taught to them. And he's taking this time to abuse the people of God, to talk about all of these slight and things like that. And yes, one of the hard things about ministry for sure, if you are doing Faithful ministry. If you're proclaiming the truth, you will be like Jesus in terms of. Jesus was vilified, Jesus was slandered. They called him a drunkard and a glutton. They pulled together false witnesses at a fake trial to try to condemn him. And so, you know, that's the Lord of glory. Jesus is the truth and the life. And, and that's what they did to Jesus. So that's part of a fallen world. And when you're in leadership and ministry, you're going to be slandered, you're going to be lied about, you're going to be attacked. It goes without question. Okay? So I want to just give him that kind of grace to say, look, even the Lord was slandered. And you know, the Apostle Paul, same thing he talks about in his letters. It's one of the primary mos of Satan, is to bring accusations. I mean, who is Satan? According to scripture, he's the accuser of the brethren. And it is his mo. I want to say that, you know, when all you have church splits and churches that disappear and conflict, conflicts within church, it's all, it's, you know, I'd say 90% of it is, you know, false accusations. It's, it's accusing, it's, you know, slandering. It's all of that. People start to create factions and make accusations. And when you're in ministry and doing faithful ministry, that's a part of faithful ministry is you're going to be slandered. All of that. It's true. And so I want to say that I get, you know, this, this struggle of pastoral ministry. It's like, you know, I can't tell you how false things that I'll see online about me. I mean, false things said by Anderson about me and my family. I mean, the man has done Sunday evening sermons dedicated to yours truly and my wife. And he's made false charges about me. He's made false claims about me, even calling me a homosexual. He made a claim that I was kicked out of the military for being a homosexual, which is verifiably false. And he has my DD214. So he should know that because he got it and it says very clearly it. So anyway, I can't, I can't go into all those details now because this, this episode, I want to make sure it's not hours long. But, but the man has slandered me himself. He's made false accusations against me and others. And, and now he's complaining about it being done to him at Least from his perspective, it's, it's false. But I think it is interesting, don't you think? Don't you agree that it is interesting and it should be of note that he just listed the list of people who are opposed to him and his ministry. And that list of people who are supposedly slandering him and vilifying him is a list of people who know the man best. And that is saying, that is saying something that's noteworthy, worthy. He says, my four eldest children, these are people who lived with him, grew up with him, saw him on a daily basis, saw him minute to minute, saw him in the good times, saw him in the bad times. And the four eldest children are unified on their testimonies that this man is disqualified. And then he names his poop stained brother Clint. And so this is somebody that knows him rather well as well. And so this man also who knows him well, is opposed to him. And, and Anderson now is coming after him. Then he also names. Who else? My sending pastor, the man who sent me to do this ministry. There's some controversy surrounding that as well as to whether that man actually sent him to do ministry. I don't have a position on that. I just know there's a controversy surrounding it. So he's got his four eldest children, his sending pastor, his brother, and then who else? The pastors like Jimenez that were closest to Anderson over all of these. So who is he listing as the people who are all evil, they're all wrong. They're actually the people who are closest to him. And that is noteworthy. And that is very, very noteworthy. It doesn't mean that the claims are true. It just means that when you're judging a situation, you have to take all these things into account as to what counts as evidence, what should be dismissed. We want to have equal weights and measures, all of that. But when you hear about the people who are opposed to Anderson and say that he' disqualified from ministry, they actually end up being the people who know him best. They know him outside of the epic sermons that he's preaching. They, they know him in his personal life, on his day to day. And so according to him, in, in the sermon he's giving, the people who know him best and are closest to him are the people who are most opposed to him. And that is really saying something, something. And that needs to be taken into account. This thing again, it's broadcast, it's public. His children want the public to know. My father's disqualified, he's an abuser and so is my mother. And here's our testimonies. It's in the public now. Everyone can hear their testimonies. You can receive those testimonies now to examine them and hear his side. Well, you're getting a glimpse of hearing his side in his response and his crashing out here. So here's some more called fake pastor

[Stephen Anderson]

friends in the dozens that have stabbed me in the back. 95 church members who abandoned me in 2024. And frankly, it's just a little much for me to handle. And you know what? Here's the thing. On the positive side, I will say this.

[Jeff Durbin]

We lost 90, so you should step down. I mean, that's. And we're. We're just a few minutes into the video here, and I would. I would say, look, I know Stephen Anderson has no respect for me or love for me at all. Um, and, you know, he spent many years sinning against me, but I'm not holding that against him right now. I'm just going to simply say, we're five minutes into the video, and my response is, you need to step down.

[Stephen Anderson]

You.

[Jeff Durbin]

You got to step down. You have to step down for the good of your own mind, heart, soul. You need to step down for the good of the people that you say you genuinely care for. And I'm not going to doubt that you do. You need to step down for the good of your family and your own sanity, because you're clearly in a lot of pain. And, you know, I'm not making a determination right now about what was true, what isn't true. I'm not making that claim publicly. But I am saying that you're clearly in a lot of pain. And that pain and that anger and that bitterness and that unforgiveness is now affecting your church body. It's affecting your life. Anderson says he's having a hard time sleeping. He thinks about this when he goes to sleep. He dreams about it. He wakes up thinking about it. It's all around him, and he's clearly a powder keg about to burst. And he's making that clear to everybody. I don't think he would deny that. I think he's making that very, very clear. And I don't mean that as an insulting thing to the man. I mean that that's what's going on. And so I think that the first response of everybody around him who loves him should be, stephen, step down. You have to step down. I mean, these are some significant charges from the people that know you best. You could try to resolve this situation privately, but you can't do that. If you're still in public and making these commentaries in Sunday services before the people of God, it's only getting worse. And so you should step down for your well being and the well being of your family. I don't doubt that Anderson and his wife love their children. And so I would just that be my advice is to say you should step down for your own well being. I mean, he's admitting publicly I don't want to do this anymore. I'm angry, I'm bitter, I'm in pain constantly. This has hurt my life in tremendous ways, continues to hurt, and I can't escape from this. So the answer should be you should step down. You should step down, step away from this. And you need to work on your soul and your heart and finding some way to restore what you can. It's not to say when things like this have happened, it's up to the person, he claims he's a victim. It's up to the victim to make everything right. But you can work towards restoration in some sense with whoever you can. And so I would say my advice would be step down, take your family out of this situation, out of the public eye, because it's only getting worse, especially with these crash outs.

[Stephen Anderson]

Five people in 2024. I don't think anybody left the church in 2025 or six over this issue at all. You know, I will say that. But you know what? That this kind of just intimate betrayal and just the continual trashing of me and my character and me just being labeled as just pretty much the worst thing that you could label anyone in America until 2026. I'm this wife beater, child abuser, right? That's my legacy. That's who I am on the Internet now to every single person, a thousand times a day, 10,000 times a day. And frankly, I'm getting a little sick of it. I don't feel like the quality of the preaching has gone down. I feel like I've preached some of my best sermons in the last couple months and everything. I'm doing the best I can. I'm getting up here and I am praying for the power of the Holy Ghost. I'm preaching, I'm trying to lead the best that I possibly can. But I am tortured every single day in my own mind and I have to fight a psychological battle every single week just to get up here and preach three times a week. I am tormented and fighting a battle in my own mind, a battle with myself that takes me days and days. And I don't even almost every Sunday, I think I'm not gonna make it every Wednesday, I think. I don't think I'm gonna be able to. To do it. And it's like, Monday, I'm just like, I don't want to preach. I got nothing to say. Screw it. Screw everything. You know, Tuesday, same way. And I'm. It's like I'm trying to psych myself up just to get up and preach. A Wednesday night sermon. Started to do this on the two.

[Jeff Durbin]

So you should stop. So you should stop. Because not stopping makes the situation worse, obviously. I mean, this is a massive crash out before everybody. You're telling everybody a lot. But not stopping is adding to the trouble that you have for yourself. But not stopping also is harming the people you say you care for. The church body with this sermon. And again, we are now 6 minutes and 31 seconds into this clip collage of different moments of the sermon. And where's the sermon, right? I mean, that's the question everyone should be asking, right? The people of God come to hear from their pastor, their shepherd be taught the word of God, and where's the sermon? Where's anything in this for the people of God to be fed, which is the role of a shepherd? And he's making the point that this is so painful for me. Me, I'm so harmed by this that I don't want to do this. I can't even get up the desire. This all sucks. I don't even want to do this. He's telling the church, I'm not even. My heart's not in this. I'm not in this. I don't want to do this. I'm tormented constantly. Your church body is sitting there probably thinking, okay, what can I do to help any of this? And the answer is nothing. And so all they're doing now is they're just getting lack. They're not being fed, they're not being cared for. And so you have to step down, and that's what you have to do. And I'm saying this knowing that Anderson is a false teacher. He preaches a false gospel. He denigrates the gospel of the apostles and essentially mocks the idea of calling people to repent. Repent and believe, to turn from sin to Christ, to believe in Christ and the forgiveness of sins. What Peter preaches, Anderson doesn't preach where the apostles are proclaiming, you know, turning from sin, trusting in Christ, all of that. He does not. He denigrates that idea of repentance and faith. So he is a false teacher. He does preach a false gospel. But I'm talking about the context of this is he's allegedly a Christian pastor. He says he believes the word of God and the standards for a pastor, and he's just not giving the congregation those things. And so Anderson for sure should step down.

[Stephen Anderson]

150th anniversary of America God bless America. Because you know what? America is the best country in the whole world. But you know what? At the same time, I feel like modern American culture is part of what poisoned my children against me because of the fact that there are two taught this feminist profaggot stupidity that our country promotes. It's like, how can I even raise my kids in this country if they're just gonna. If everybody's just gonna tell them the opposite of what the Bible is saying and what their parents are telling them, and then even their. Their stupid uncle is gonna poison their minds. But what is it that I want? You know, what do I want to happen?

[Jeff Durbin]

What value is there in any of this, this for the congregation? What. What value is that? That this is just a person ranting and raving and complaining. The pastor is supposed to shepherd the people of God into trusting God, believing God's promises, trusting in God's provision, all of that. They have children too, in this culture. And so what are they getting from their shepherd right now is, you know, the culture poisons your children against you. So, like, you know, what does it even matter? They're just going to be lied to by the culture and you're going to lose them anyway kind of a thing. And so what's the point?

[Stephen Anderson]

What.

[Jeff Durbin]

What are the people of God getting in terms of Christ and hope from the pulpit in a case like this? Nothing. Which means you need to step down. You're not. Well, step down for the sake of the people that you are now abusing.

[Stephen Anderson]

What is going to fix this for me? Well, you know what I want? Exactly what this verse says that God is going to. To do. I want to be avenged speedily. That's what I want. That's what I want. That's all I want. I'm not asking for anything crazy. I'm asking for one thing. I want to be avenged speedily. Now, if you would go to Exodus, chapter 21. So what is it that I want? I want God to fix my situation, and I want to be vindicated publicly.

[Jeff Durbin]

And this is the problem. When you build a church on the basis or foundation of a personality, That's what happens. Because the church at its Core is not so much about Christ, the word of God, the gospel. It's about the personality delivering. And it's not to say that God doesn't use pastors in incredible ways to bless the church and the world and the people of God. Love this pastor and respect that pastor. And this guy has helped to change my entire life. I love him. I'm grateful for his ministry. It's not to say that that's not possible or a good thing. We shouldn't have honor for people who God is using in tremendous ways to transform. Transformed the world and blessed the saints. You know, you have the greats in church history. You know, you could say someone like Charles Spurgeon, I mean, the man still to this day blesses the church. We're grateful for someone like Charles Haddon Spurgeon, his teachings and his writings and all of that. I mean, we're thankful for him. But what Charles Spurgeon gave people was Christ, Christ, Christ, Christ. The Word of God, the Word of God, the Word of God, the authority of scripture you can look into today. You can have the greats like. We've had such amazing gifts from God in this last generation, from Dr. R.C. sproul to John MacArthur, Vodi Balcomb, all those. John Piper, he helped to change my life. And God used him to tremendously bless me. After many, many, many, many years ago, coming out of drug and alcohol addiction, God used Piper's writings on the pleasures of God to transform my thinking in that area. And God used him to bl. So thankful for him. I'm so thankful for Desiring God Ministries and for Piper's church and his years of teaching. I'm so thankful. So get what I'm saying here. I'm not saying that God, you can't have a context that's healthy in a church where you have a pastor that many, many people are grateful for within the church and outside the church. But in that case, you should be saying, well, that guy is so, so much of a blessing to the church because he's not making it about him. His sermons aren't about him. He's making much of Christ and the gospel and the Word of God. And I'm listening to this guy, and I love him and I'm so grateful for him because when he speaks, he gives me Christ and the Word of God. And the Word of God comes to me and speaks to me. And so that's why I'm thankful for him. But when you build a church, church, and the foundation is upon the personality. It's the Guy, it's the guy. Then you have moments like this. Did you hear the church there, the people listening? He's saying all these things that should never be a part of a context of the church gathering like this for a sermon. And you've got people saying amen, amen, Amen. Because it's, it's, it's defend the man, defend the man, defend the man. It's about him. The service is about him. The church is about him. He's the one leading people to Christ. This is the man of God. It's like, whoa, that's not healthy. That's not healthy. We're okay with God using men in incredible ways and people saying, I honor that man. I'm thankful for that man. But it should be only because of what that man does to bring God to me and Christ to me and the word of God to me and transform me. And so these things will collapse. When it's built upon a personality and not the actual teaching itself, but the personality, the guy, the man of God, then it's going to collapse. It'll collapse under its own weight for sure. And it's collapsing right now before your eyes.

[Greg Bonson]

Hey, Bond. Senu Live is finally here. Join me on June 29th for our very first live session, available exclusively to all Access members at Apologia Studios. As you work through the incredible lectures of Dr. Greg Bonson, you're bound to have questions about apologetics, theology, philosophy and the Christian, Christian faith. That's exactly what Bonson you live is for. Once a month I'll be hosting an interactive live stream where you could engage directly with me, ask your questions and dive deeper into the topics that you're studying. Whether you're new to presuppositional apologetics or looking to sharpen your understanding of the Christian worldview, this is your opportunity to learn, to interact and to grow alongside a community of like minded believers. So join me on June 29th for our first Bonson U Live exclusive exclusively

[Stephen Anderson]

at apologiastudios.com I want to be publicly vindicated. I do not deserve to have my reputation trashed and slandered to the level that it has been. You know what? I'm willing to be lied about, slandered. Hey, count all joy when people you know say all manner of evil against you falsely. I've been doing that for 21 years. This is extreme. This is beyond the pale and I'm sick of it and I don't want to put up with it anymore.

[Jeff Durbin]

Yeah, and I think that the real power of the pain in this moment is that it is true. We have to have equal weights and measures here and speak the truth. It is true that Anderson over the years has said many true things and many good things. So we can't lie about that and diminish that. The man's a false teacher for sure. Preaches a false gospel without question Christian. He's been an abusive man to many, many people. He's been a liar and a slanderer himself. But he's also said many true things, good things. He has. And on the basis of saying many things that were actually true, he has been wrongly accused and vilified many times over. So, I mean, I've. I've. I've seen moments where Anderson will quote scripture regarding homosexuality and, you know, he's called a hate preacher simply for calling homosexual homosexuality sin, quoting the Bible in that respect. And so being vilified for speaking the truth is wrong. Being slandered. For Anderson, speaking the truth at times is wrong. And, and that's always been wrong when people have done that to him. There's been other times where he's just awful and he actually is hateful and, and he'll take biblical truth and he'll just spin it in such a way where he's just. He's just abusive. And so I'm not condoning owning those moments, but equal weights and measures. God hates it when we show partiality. We don't show equal weights and measures as an abomination to God. So I do want to say that over the years, I've personally witnessed people vilifying Anderson for things that actually every Christian supposed to believe. And it's in the word of God. And so it's, you know, it's Anderson. I've been vilified and persecuted and slandered, and I go with it. But like this. This is just too much. This is too much. This is beyond the pale. And, but here's what's interesting in the past where Anderson has been vilified and slandered, falsely, falsely accused for things that every Christian is supposed to believe. That was one thing. But in this case, the weight of it is that this is your own children and the people closest to you who know you best making these charges. And there is weight to that. There, there is weight to that. It's not to say that everything they're saying about their father is true or every claim being made against either either Anderson or his wife is true. It's say that there's. It's a weighty thing that Everybody that you're saying is slandering you and falsely accusing you are the people who know you very best. They know you when you're not behind the pulpit, let's be honest, many times putting on a show, kicking the pulpit, and, you know, all the things that Anderson has done over the many years where it's. It's clearly, you know, entertainment purposes, but these are people closest to him. And that. That is weighty.

[Stephen Anderson]

I want to be vindicated publicly. I want my reputation to be fixed. That's what I want. Now, what does this look like? Well, I would say either, a, I want my children to come out publicly and recant the evil things that they said about me and my wife. And I want them to admit that they lied and. Or exaggerated about the discipline that they received. I want them to publicly admit that they were wrong and publicly tell the world that we were good parents, because that is the truth. And you know what? Maybe you believe that, maybe you don't believe that. I don't care. I was there, and I know it's the truth. And you know what? You might be sitting there thinking, well, Pastor Anderson's a great man of God. He's spirit filled. He's done a lot of great works, but he must have really been a crappy parent. He must have prioritized the ministry and just kind of put his kids on the back burner. Guess what? That's not true. I'm a fan. I spent time with those children. I invest in them. I sacrificed with them. I love them. And you know what? I had probably the best relationship with my daughter that I could possibly imagine any father having with his daughter is the relationship that I feel like I had with Miriam. Do you know how surreal it is to watch her go on YouTube with some faggot in drag, a literal man in drag, and just tell lies about me and trash me and say all these things. I mean, it's just unbelievable, you know, and it's like. And ask me how motivated I am to have a super close relationship with my teenage daughter Rebecca, right here, 17 years old, and my teenage daughter Anna, right here, 15 years old. You know, it's kind of hard for me to even want to invest in that relationship when I had the perfect, ideal relationship with Miriam, and that's what she did to me.

[Jeff Durbin]

Oh, not good. Not good. This is exactly what I mean. And I think you all see it. You don't need me to instruct you on this. Not good. The sermon itself, not a sermon, is abusive to the congregation, but he's in so much pain that he's now saying things in front of his own children who are still under his care that they shouldn't be hearing. They shouldn't be hearing these things. Here's the point. Why step down? Because the church needs a shepherd and families need a shepherd of the family. And the father, father and the husband and the pastor are those things. It's not to say they're going to do it perfectly, but this is a complete crash out, all right? This is becoming unhinged and this is abusive, not just to the congregation, but to your own family. Now your daughters are being brought into this situation publicly and you're saying things that are harmful even to your daughters, that cause your daughters to fear, cause your daughters to worry and be anxious. You're creating anxieties in your church body and in your children. And so you should step down. Anderson actually is a very intelligent man. He's very intelligent, sharp minded man for sure. And I think in his case he steps down. He's a hard worker. He's a very hard worker and I think he goes and finds, finds a way and a means to provide for his family. And I think he's a man who would be highly, highly successful. Successful. Like I said, you have to as a Christian, equal weights and measures. You got to say the truth where it's appropriate. He's a very hard worker. He clearly has an entrepreneurial spirit and he's a highly intelligent man. I think he would do very well for his family and he would allow this controversy within his church to stop by his removing himself. The church is not about the shift shepherd, it's about Christ and shepherds support, support and bless the church as under shepherds of Christ. But it's not about any individual elder, right? Elders can be a gift and they can be a blessing. But in a circumstance like this, you can see the point where now the wheels have come off. It's becoming unhinged, it's becoming harmful to the congregation, harmful to his own family. I think the best thing to do is everybody pray that Anderson steps down and steps away from ministry. He needs to, he really does.

[Stephen Anderson]

But you know what? Option B is in God's control. And this is why I'm a little upset. This is why I'm mad. Because option B is that I want God to punish them in a spectacular public way so that I can be vindicated and so the Lord can show that he's on my side. And I'm talking about my brother Clint and I'm talking about my four evil, rebellious children. And I'm talking about Paul Wittenberger. Those six people need to reap. They either need to get right with God or they need to reap the whirlwind, or I am not going to continue pastoring. I'm just telling you that right now. And you know what? If God loves me so much and God wants to bless me so much, and God wants to use me so much as he has for the last 20 years, you know what? I'm asking God to throw me a bone here and do something for me.

[Jeff Durbin]

Not appropriate. Not appropriate before a congregation, before the people of God. To say things like that, not appropriate, completely unreasonable, qualifying, I think, pastorally, because you're essentially blaming God and challenging God and you're doing it before the congregation. And none of us are fully sanctified. And we all have warts and we all have gaps, and we all are broken in many, many ways. Pastors and congregants, all of that. There's no question about that. So this is not like a level of a standard of perfection being required of somebody that is unfair. I will just say that what the people of God need, even in moments of desperation and pain happening within the church, is they need a shepherd who will continue, despite the pain, to become less, decrease and increase Christ even in the midst of personal pain. I can tell you as a pastor over many, many years that there's been times where I've been hurting. You know, life is challenging. There are great difficulties, pain I'm experiencing. And I know that my duty in the midst of this pain is to be faithful to Christ and to feed his church. Church. There's been moments where I've been in so much pain that, you know, my heart is broken or I'm. I'm dealing with something that's just, you know, weighing me down. It is so challenging. And I just being. I'm just being very honest with you. There's many, many times in ministry where I have. I've sat there before. I'm going to ascend the pulpit and deliver the Word of God to the people of God, where I have. I'm just praying. I've been praying that entire day. God, I trust you. These are your people. And there's been times where I am dealing with great pain. And I know I'm about to ascend that pulpit, that sacred place to deliver the word of God. And I'm in so much pain, and I'm so weighed down by something, and I will be in prayer. And again, probably that Day. I've been in prayer the whole day about it. But then I will look over at the congregation as the congregation is singing the song before I'm going to go up the pulpit and they're worshiping God. And I will look over at the congregation and I will just pray and say, this has happened so many times. I'll say, lord, I can't do this. And I need you, Lord, your spirit, God, to completely take over right now and for you to feed your church. I will just say to God, this is your church, God, it is not mine. These are your people. They don't belong to me, God, they are yours. You're the shepherd. Help me, God. Help me, God, to walk up there in that sacred place and, lord, let me be faithful to your word in the midst of a hard circumstance that I'm experiencing. Let me be faithful to you, God, and faithful to your church, Lord. Feed your church today. Feed your church. Let me give them the truth, God. That's going to transform them and renew them. That has been my prayer. And I mean this before God so many times that it's to me now, countless. I understand the experience pastorally of dealing with great pain and then going up before the body, but I think faithful shepherding is recognizing that my duty in that moment is not to make much of myself and to just vomit all over the congregation, but my duty is to feed Christ's sheep, to take care of his church. And whatever I'm dealing with, it needs to not be happening in that sacred place of the pulpit, because that place is reserved, served for the glory of God and the people of God. And it's not about my moment and my pain or whatever I'm going through. And so that's why when you get into a situation like this, step down. I will say this. Let me say this publicly. If you ever see that from me and my ministry of my taking my pain and making the entire sermon about me and my troubles and my railing against this or that during a time like Sunday worship, please feel free to just simply gently say, jeff, step down. You have to stop. You have to stop. I'm praying for you. I'm praying for your healing, but you got to step down. You got to stop. That's completely appropriate, and I think, please do that to me.

[Stephen Anderson]

And, you know, there are a lot of other bonus enemies that would be great, too, but those. Those are the big ones, in that order. And look, any of these people, any of these wicked people who participate in this is more than welcome to repent. Whenever they want. And you know what? I have already demonstrated that I will, from the heart, forgive anyone who repents. That's my Christian duty. And I've already demonstrated that I will forgive from the heart anyone who truly repents. However, if they don't repent, they need to be destroyed by God. Did I any. You could pick any, any definition. We could take every single possible definition that cursing your father and mother has. And my four children have done that. They publicly tried to ruin my ministry, ruin my career, ruin my marriage, ruin my reputation. They said publicly that they wanted me and my wife to go to prison, that my wife should go to prison for 20 years. And let me tell you something, My wife is a great mom, super loving. I mean, she's a great parent. These little sniveling brats just don't appreciate anything because they just have, I guess, these first world problems or whatever, wanting us to go to prison. They said they wanted us to get our kids taken away. I mean, they did interview after interview lamenting how, oh, CPS isn't doing their job. CPS needs to come take the kids away from my parents. Isaac saying, order, CPS needs to come. John saying, cps. I mean, Miriam saying cps, calling cps. Right? And you know, I don't even know if I've publicly revealed this before. But first of all, they also said other horrible things about me that I can't even repeat behind the pulpit because they're just vile and I'm not going to speak to that way behind the pulpit. But you know, they've cursed me in every possible definition of that word. Okay, they're wicked and they need to repent immediately or they need to be punished by God. And everyone who has egged them on and encouraged them to do this should get the same punishment. And until they repent, I never want to see them ever again. And people are like, oh, you need to just make things right with your children past. You just need to just swallow your pride, be the bigger person. Hell no. Absolutely not. I never want to see them again. Life is too short to have those kind of toxic, wicked, evil people in your life. Why would I want those evil pieces of trash influencing my other eight children? You think I want my other eight children to grow up and be rotten like that? I don't ever want to see them again. If I ever see them again, it'll be too soon. Oh, you need to fix things. I'm sorry, but I'm not the one who did wrong, period. I'm the parent. They're the child. I reared them biblically. I followed the Bible to the best of my ability. I never said I was a perfect parent or that I never made any mistakes. I was not a perfect parent. Yes, I made mistakes, but I wasn't even just a good parent. I was a great parent. And I don't care whether you believe me or not. It's true. And my wife's a great mom and I'm a great dad. And I'd put us in the top 99% of the planet. And you can like it or lump it, I don't care. It's. And so I need God to intercede for me and to fix my situation and to go to bat for me. And if he does not do that, I'm just telling you right now, I am on my way out. I'll be here Wednesday, God willing, I'll be here next Sunday. But I'm telling you that my heart is not in it and my heart's not going to be in it until God fixes my situation. And I'm Jonah chapter, chapter four is how I feel. And I'm going to get up here and I promise you this. Here's the problem. I can't promise that I'm going to do this job forever. But I will promise you this. I will never get up behind this pulpit and BS you about anything ever. And I never have and I never will. And if I get up here and say something, I mean it from the I'm not Tommy McMurtry riling up the base, okay? Everything I say is real and, and I mean it. Period. And I promise you that if I'm up here preaching on Wednesday, every single word will be truth from the Bible and from the heart of Pastor Anderson. It's not going to be me going through the motions or saying things I don't believe. But I'm just telling you my heart is not in this job anymore. And it's not going to be in this job anymore until God shows Himself mighty on my behalf.

[Jeff Durbin]

So that means you have to step down. That's what that means. That's what it means. And so my prayer is that Anderson would step down. I'm thinking about that in two categories. He's a false teacher anyways, preaches a false gospel. He shouldn't be in ministry to begin with. But on the other side, the other category is step down for the well being of yourself, your wife, your marriage, your children. Step down for the well being of this body of professing believers. Step down. Your heart's not in it. You don't want to do it. You're making demands of God. You're calling God out, saying, if you love me so much, then do this. And so you should step down for sure. And so that's my prayer and I hope you pray that with me so you can probably. You probably heard this whole episode, the hammers and the nails and the everything else. I'm surprised you haven't heard more. It's getting worse, though, as you can, you can tell it's getting much worse because they got probably farther along in the demolition we're doing over there. So thank you guys, everybody for watching. I hope this has been some benefit to everybody and please be prayerful about this family and this situation, that God would heal and restore and redeem all of the this. And I want to thank you guys for watching. It's been a long episode so far and it's getting louder and louder. So I'll save the MacArthur stuff until next episode because I do want you to hear it. It's really, really important we get through a question posed to MacArthur, I think not long before he passed away to be with the Lord regarding the victory of Christ and the future eschatology. It's a short clip, but there's so much to say about it. I think it'll really, really bless you. So stay tuned. Tuned for that. I think it's going to be challenging to get through that with all this noise. It's getting much, much worse. Please go to apologiastudios.com, go to the store, get yourself some tracks, some swag, all the stuff that's there. Don't forget to sign up for All Access. When you guys sign up for All Access, you partner with us in this ministry and everything that happens. All of the people around the world hearing the gospel coming to Christ is as a result of you guys partnering with us by signing up for All Access. The Apple app is, is very, very close for All Access. I've already seen it. I'm so excited for you to see it. I'm thrilled. Finally, finally, finally the app is coming and then shortly after that, Android. So sign up for All Access, guys. Also go to apologiastudios.com give and help us to get to our goal, everybody. We just got a $10,000 gift towards it that the generous donor is requesting that you help to to match, match that $10,000 donation. You can do so at apologiastudios.com give help to give towards that. He wanted it to be, you know, something that really helped to get things moving with the, the giving. So there's so many things we're adding now to all access, tools, ways to help you, new programs, new and, and more regular engagement so you guys can listen to the Christian worldview being defended. All of that is underway. You can hear it happening on the other side of the studio here right now. So apolog apologudios.com give apologiastudios.com to get your bonds and you free account and also to sign up for all Access to get all the additional content. I want to thank you everybody for being a part of this ministry with us. Catch you next week right here on Apologia Radio.

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