← Apologia Radio
Apologia Radio
579. Dr. John MacArthur Was Wrong About End Times
01:19:36
Join us for the newest episode of Apologia Radio in which we examine some comments made by Dr. John MacArthur on Christian Nationalism, Postmillennialism, and end times. We also talk about the recent controversy surrounding Steve Lawson speaking (or not speaking) at a conference. Don't miss it!
Loading summary
Transcript154 lines
- [00:00]
Dominion Wealth Representative
For most people, their finances aren't one big problem. It's a hundred small ones. A retirement account from a job five years ago. A budget that lives in your head but never on paper. Life insurance that you meant to look into. A will half finished or not even started. And the longer you leave those loose ends untied, the harder it becomes to move forward with peace of mind. At Dominion wealth, we walk with you step by step to help you tie it all together. We meet you where you are. We listen. We get your financial picture out of your head and into practice. Then we build a strategy to meet your needs. Now, prepare for your future and bless the next generation. We don't pressure you. We give biblical, honest guidance. Let the strategy follow your values and help find the right solutions. If your financial path feels uncertain, let's get together one on one and get you on the right track. Book a free consultation today. We are here to help you get your finances in order so you can feel confident about the future. From baptism to burial, Dominion's got you covered. You can find us at Reform Money
- [01:15]
Jeff the Commoner Ninja
Non Rockabotus must stop. I don't want to rock the boat. I want to sink it.
- [01:23]
Luke the Bear
Are you gonna bark all day, little
- [01:25]
Jeff the Commoner Ninja
doggy, or are you gonna bite? Delusional. Yeah, delusional is okay. In your worldview, I'm an animal. You don't chastise chickens for being delusional. You don't chastise pigs for being so. You calling me delusional Using your worldview is perfectly okay. It doesn't really hurt. She hung up on me. Desperate times call for faithful men and not for careful men. The careful men come later and write the biographies of the faithful men, lauding them for their courage.
- [02:00]
Pastor Wes
Go into all the world and make disciples. Not go into the world to make buddies, not to make corrosives.
- [02:05]
Jeff the Commoner Ninja
Right.
- [02:05]
Pastor Wes
Don't go into the world, make homies.
- [02:07]
Jeff the Commoner Ninja
Right.
- [02:08]
Pastor Wes
Disciples.
- [02:09]
Jeff the Commoner Ninja
I got a bit of a jiggle neck. That's a joke, Pastor. When we have the real message of truth, we cannot let somebody say they're speaking truth when they're not.
- [02:22]
Luke the Bear
Take an amazing journey to a place
- [02:26]
Jeff the Commoner Ninja
that will blow your mind and move
- [02:31]
Luke the Bear
your heart so you will never be the same again.
- [02:37]
Jeff the Commoner Ninja
Behold my servant whom I uphold. My chosen, in whom my soul delights. I have put my spirit upon him. He will bring forth justice to the nations. He will not cry aloud or lift up his voice or make it heard in the street. A bruised reed he will not break and a faintly burning wick he will not quench he will faithfully bring forth justice. He will not grow faint or be discouraged till he has established justice in the earth and the coastlands. Wait for his law. Welcome back, everybody, to another another episode of Apologia Radio. This is the gospel heard around the world. I am Jeff the Commoner Ninja. That's Luke the Bear right there.
- [03:15]
Greg Bonson
What up?
- [03:16]
Jeff the Commoner Ninja
Thank you guys for joining us. You can get more at apologiastudios.com that's a P O L O G I A studios.com Go over there. When we're all done, sign up for All Access, partner with us in this ministry. Everything that you see happening through Apologia Studios, the on the street evangelism, the teaching, the debates, whatever you see is because of partners just like you in ministry with us. You're doing this ministry with us. And when you go to All Access, you get all kinds of additional content. You get the after shows, the full episodes of Collision, all the additional stuff there, the Academy, all that is there for you, to bless you and to thank you for being a part of this ministry with us. So go sign up for All Access. The app, the Apple app is in the final stages of the testing and we're about to release that very, very soon. And then get onto, of course, the other one. Thank you to everyone who's participating with us as we are now upgrading and transforming Apologia Studios. The new set is in production right now next door to us. We have more content getting ready for you guys in terms of more cultural collision, engagement with the culture debates, all that stuff. It's coming. Thank you guys to everybody who's been a part of the fundraising for this apologiastudios.com give apologiastudios.com Give us, partner with us also in this fundraising mission. We are adding new tools and all kinds of things, new programs, new productions to bless you, to help you to know what you believe, why you believe it, and be able to articulate those truths to the world, all so that more people come to know Jesus. We want the whole world to know him as he moves towards his final victory in this world. And that has a lot to do with what we're talking about today as well. Dr. John MacArthur and his view on End Times. He made some comments on, I believe, shortly before his passing to be with the lord. We love Dr. John MacArthur. He has had such an influence on us. We love the man, but he is just dead wrong on eschatology. And so we're going to examine some of those comments he made. And we think it's going to be a real blessing to you guys. We can get into the scriptures. Last night, just want to announce my Last night my son got married. My, my son stellar graduated Marine Corps boot camp and came home for his, his break before he goes back. He broke his shin shortly before the Crucible did. The Crucible. Anyways, they wanted to do surgery on it and thankfully he rejected that. Didn't allow him. And somehow, miraculously, weirdly, his, his shin is already basically mostly healed. Healed up and so, so praise God for that. But came home and got married to his sweetheart. And so he, they just had their honeymoon last night and they're. I'm just so proud of him. So thankful. And all the friends that came and have been a blessing to my family just means so much to me. So that's, it's a, it's a good day. It's a wonderful, wonderful day. Wanted to announce before we get into the program today also, we were able to, by the grace of God, get the first bill of abolition and equal protection into the state of Illinois this year. It was a whirlwind because we got the bill in in like two weeks with an amazing Christian, a man of God and senator, Senator Neil Anderson put that bill in. But we had limited time when this all happened. It was like just a furious month of just quick movement and trying to gather the church as much as possible, let them know that we had a bill of abolition in Illinois. And so the church just moved so quickly on that. And the churches we have now that are networked with us and helping with this bill are just amazing, amazing Christians, pastors, leaders. But we, of course, just, we knew we were planting seeds and getting this thing going in Illinois. But we want to do better next session as the bill comes in with Senator Neil Anderson. And so in order to do that, we need to build this, this coalition of churches and leaders and Christians, pastors across the state of Illinois. The legislators in Illinois told me who were rejecting it. They said they believed in the bill, but they were rejecting it. They said this. They said that the church in Illinois does not want this bill. And that's what they believed. They believed that they don't even want this. They don't want to see the abolition of abortion. Like, where's the church in this? Even though many Christians and pastors and leaders were, you know, pounding on their door and saying, absolutely, we want this, but they don't believe that the Christians in the state of Illinois want to see ultimately abortion to be abolished and so we're going to change their minds on that. And in order to do that, we need to work together and gather more churches and put our hands in each other's hands and work together on this. So with that, oops, we are coming back to Illinois. Just I think it's just south of Chicago, not far from Chicago. Winfield, Illinois. Michael Johnson, Pastor Michael Johnson has graciously agreed to give up his church again for us. We are coming August 4th. August 4th. And make sure I have that right. Yeah, here we go. Let me just pull this up right here for everyone so you know this information. It's August 4th at 5:30pm Start time. We're giving you dinner and we're going to get together with all the churches all across Illinois. Please show up. If you're a pastor, if you're a leader across Illinois, Christians, come join us. We want to get together as a team, as the church in Illinois to make sure that this bill passes and to make sure that the legislators in Illinois know that we, as a church across the nation, but also specifically in Illinois, do want to see equal protection for all human beings from fertilization. So I'm going to put after this episode, after this episode, I'm going to put the link in the description. You do need to sign up, let us know that you're coming. Please come also announce to every Christian and pastor in Illinois you can that this is actually happening. So we're going to have a meeting. Senator Neil Anderson is joining us for this. Wes, Pastor Wes is joining us as well for this. And so we're going to make sure we give you all the information you need. We're going to pray together, we're going to work together on what we're going to be doing as the church to make sure this bill passes. So again, August 4, 5:30pm start time after the episode, links going in the description, if you're coming, please RSVP and let the world know that this is actually happening. So wanted to give everyone that information and then get started in the show today. So Dr. John MacArthur, great man of God, solidly preached the gospel, one of the best teachers of our generation, without question. And I will say when I, you've heard me probably say many times before that when I came out of my drug and alcohol addiction many, many, many, many years ago, one of the things that God allowed in his providence for me to have was Dr. MacArthur's book on the Gospel according to Jesus. And it was reading that book after my year of sinking into depravity and my. I had a profession of faith. But after that year of depravity and reading that book, God used that book and the scriptures in that book to really challenge me, to question whether I actually ever knew Jesus entrusted him. And so I can. I can credit Dr. John MacArthur and his ministry with that, because it was what God had given to me through that book and Those scriptures that MacArthur was pointing to that God used to really open my eyes to my condition. And so, so thankful for the man. I will be eternally grateful, literally, to the man. But on the issue of eschatology, end times, Dr. John MacArthur, I believe, was. Was essentially giving a tradition on end times and eschatology that was just simply not biblical and ultimately not helpful. Let me give you this. I'll go ahead and play this now. I was gonna play this later. I think I'll do it now. This is Dr. MacArthur, and here is Dr. MacArthur talking about his view of the future. And this is just simpler for me to do. Sorry about the video here. Not full screen, but this is just simple for me. Me to do is just get this clip of MacArthur talking about his view of the future. Listen, here it is.
- [11:03]
Luke the Bear
Thought we're just gonna go waltzing into the kingdom as you took. No, we lose here. Get it? They killed Jesus. They killed all the apostles. We're all going to be persecuted. If any man come after me, let him, what, deny himself garbage of prosperity gospel? No, we don't win down here. Are you ready for that? Just to clear the air. I love this clarity. We don't win. We lose on this battlefield, but we win on the big one, the eternal one. If the new administration supports religious freedom, get ready. Persecution will be ramped up because the more supportive they are of the devil's lies, the less they're going to tolerate the truth of scripture.
- [12:03]
Jeff the Commoner Ninja
So there was MacArthur's view. It's not the first time he said things like that. That's really all over his writings and his, his teaching about the future. We lose down here. That's MacArthur's position. He has a pessimistic eschatology, or had a pessimist. Well, he has very. He has a very optimistic eschatology now. Now he's, He's. He's post millennialist in heaven. So he's very optimistic now, for sure, without question, but. But while he was here in his teaching ministry, very pessimistic about the future, obviously. I mean, we lose down here. Get it? I love the clarity on this. We lose down here. I mean, that's what he's sharing with the church and Christians. And so, you know, your efforts of evangelism and missions and everything else are ultimately doomed to failure. Ultimately. That's what he's saying. If we lose down here, then all of your efforts in evangelism and outreach and all the rest are ultimately, ultimately doomed because we lose down here. The great commission for Dr. MacArthur was a pipe dream. The Great Commission was just simply wishful thinking. It wasn't the Great Commission what God was ordaining and commanding. And we're going to. And Jesus is going to ultimately fulfill all the prophecies, the Messianic prophecies, Old Testament, about the knowledge of God covering the earth like the waters cover the sea. He shall have dominion from sea to sea, from the river to the ends of the earth. Genesis 49, 10 says that to him shall be the obedience of the nations. Abraham's descendants will have. Abraham will have descendants as numerous as the stars and like the sand on the seashore. All of those. All of those. No, no, we lose down here. Isaiah 42, what I read at the beginning of the. The show today, Isaiah 42, where it says that he will faithfully bring forth justice. He will not grow faint or be discouraged till he has established justice in the earth and the coastlines, wait for his law. Isaiah, chapter 2, Isaiah, chapter 11, Isaiah, chapter 42. All those passages. I mean, so many passages throughout the Old Testament that prophesied from the word of God about what the future of the world will look like. And then ultimately, of course, how Paul the Apostle Paul sees it, he sees in First Corinthians 15, he says that he must reign. Jesus is reigning now, according to Paul, in the first century. He must reign on that Davidic throne, on the Messianic throne. He's the Messianic king. He must reign until every enemy has made a footstool for his feet. And then after every enemy has made a footstool for his feet, then Paul says, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, a word from God. He says, after every enemy is. Is put under the feet of Jesus, then the last enemy, death, is destroyed. So every enemy under the feet of Jesus, and then death is destroyed. That sounds like total victory to me. Dr. MacArthur says no, no. What the future is for Christians is simply persecution. It's pain. Persecution. That is. That is what all of us have to look forward to in. Ultimately, we lose. We lose down here.
- [14:51]
Pastor Wes
Yeah. I mean, I. I understand what he's saying when we. We lose on here, but I'll be honest. I Don't. I know. I. I think I speak for you. We don't think that way. Like, I'm not sitting here going, well, we're going to win. I'm like, Christ is going to win.
- [15:04]
Jeff the Commoner Ninja
Right, right.
- [15:05]
Pastor Wes
It's.
- [15:05]
Jeff the Commoner Ninja
Yeah.
- [15:06]
Pastor Wes
So even like putting in those terms, it's just like, I don't even, like, that's not how I view this. I'd view it. Christ, Christ winning, his kingdom growing and expanding. And like, I don't think about. About it in terms of whether or not I'm going to win or lose.
- [15:17]
Jeff the Commoner Ninja
We win. Yeah, I'm glad you thought that. It's exactly what I thought was. Listen to it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's. We don't talk like that. We're postmo.
- [15:23]
Pastor Wes
Right.
- [15:24]
Jeff the Commoner Ninja
We don't talk like that. Like we win. Like Jesus.
- [15:26]
Pastor Wes
Right.
- [15:26]
Jeff the Commoner Ninja
Jesus wins down here. And so, yeah, that's. I think it's important way to put that. So the way that MacArthur said it, you know, sounds strange, I think, to the ears of post millennialists, but MacArthur was dispensational pre millennialist, and his eschatology was a novum in church history, something new. His perspective was new. Now, he had nuances in ways that he held to his dispensationalism that are different than other dispensationalists, to be sure. But dispensational premillennialism was his view. He held to the view, of course, of the rapture. You've got seven years tribulation and all of that. MacArthur was there. So. And to be fair, there are classical or historic pre millennialists that, that did not hold to the view that MacArthur did or do not hold to what he did hold to. And so there are some. There are some nuances and some distinctions there. But recently this came across and I wanted to make sure we had a chance to. To speak about it. This was I apparently from a conference or something. Looks like. Is that Grace Community Church? I can't quite tell. Maybe not.
- [16:33]
Pastor Wes
It looks different.
- [16:34]
Jeff the Commoner Ninja
It does look different. Yeah.
- [16:35]
Pastor Wes
Yeah, it looks very different.
- [16:36]
Jeff the Commoner Ninja
So here's MacArthur being asked a question by somebody about Christian nationalism, post millennialism. We're going to engage with it a bit because I think ultimately this, this is not an attempt to bash Dr. MacArthur or to. To demean him in any way, but it's to engage with his commentary because he was a teacher to Christians. Christians adopt these perspectives and theology matters. Theology matters. What you teach Christians goes inside of them and then through. That comes out of them through their praxis, what they do. And so we think that ultimately these perspectives are destructive. They are in the, of course, the vein of Christian Orthodoxy, but they are ultimately destructive to the mission of the church and the mind of the Church. How we think about these things does matter. Greatly, greatly matters. It's very transformative. And so here we go.
- [17:25]
Luke the Bear
Give me your name and your question. I think I'll be able to hear fine.
- [17:30]
Jeff the Commoner Ninja
Good evening, Broderzian.
- [17:31]
Luke the Bear
This is Arno Babajanian. Yeah, Arno Babajanian. Okay.
- [17:37]
Dominion Wealth Representative
Yeah,
- [17:40]
Luke the Bear
yeah. My question is this. Since the theological conclusion of the Great Commission is the victory of the Messiah, how should we consider biblical Christian nationalism, theonomy and hopeful eschatology? That's a pretty big question. So let's just pick off Christian nationalism. I'll give you a simple answer. There's no such thing. There is no such thing as Christian nationalism. The kingdom of God is not of this world. Jesus said that. He said, my kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would fight.
- [18:26]
Jeff the Commoner Ninja
We should start there, for sure. I don't know what Brother MacArthur meant by there's no such thing. I don't quite. Because even with his explanation that comes after this, I'm not quite sure what he meant by that. There's no such thing. I. If you've been watching us for any. A shorter period of time, for the last couple of years, the subject, a subject of Christian nationalism has certainly come up. And you probably already know, you know, where we fall on this. We don't identify as Christian nationalists here. And the reason we don't is because that terminology is either filled with a lot of confusion or error. A lot of people have a particular. Let's put it this way, there are so many different versions of Christian nationalism out there. To say you're a Christian nationalist today, it becomes almost meaningless because there's so many different versions and they're so ill defined or they are properly defined in their own perspective. And we would say, absolutely not. Yeah, that's not biblical. And so we don't identify as Christian nationalists here. We're just, you know, historic and hardcore post millennialists. If you want to know our perspective, you look to the Puritans, look to Jonathan Edwards and, you know, some of the greats and giants in church history, look to Athanasius Contra Mundum, and you'll see, you'll see, you know, what post millennialism thought is throughout church history. But so we don't identify as Christian nationalists. And that's, I think, mostly for me, there are so many People that do and their views are so variegated, so so different that. And either even dangerous and biblical at certain levels. So we just don't. But there is such a thing as Christian nationalism. And so it's a mouthful to say.
- [20:10]
Pastor Wes
Yeah, I mean this is something I've been writing a little bit about. So like I would put on the perspective of Christian nationalism. You have the far, one far reaching description I actually call like nationalist Christendom. Like, and that's the one that's not so good. And then you have. On the other end, I would put probably like Doug Wilson, who's basically where we're at, you know, But I think he's trying to work out the practicalities of if a nation became Christian, if our nation once again was a Christian nation. Yeah. So like there's. You're right, but there's like, there's all kinds of flavors in between. I would actually call myself a Christian culturalist. I got that from Andrew Sandlin and Joe Boot. Like, we're just trying to build a Christian culture. Right. And so he talks about, I know you're going to get into like Christ's kingdom not being of this world. And we're like, yeah, we agree, we agree with that.
- [21:08]
Jeff the Commoner Ninja
Doesn't mean. It doesn't mean it's not in this world.
- [21:10]
Pastor Wes
Right, exactly. And that's the whole point is like if, if we're building a Christian culture, like those that are in that culture are of Christ's kingdom. And so how are we going to influence the culture, you know, to represent our king? So like. Yeah, so like. Right, so he's kind of drawn like a line in the sand dichotomy saying it can't be this. And we're like, well, it's actually, realistically there's things come together in, in real life. Right. And so like how do we work those things out? So.
- [21:36]
Jeff the Commoner Ninja
Exactly. And we talk and Luke, can you explain to everyone what you mean by building a Christian culture? So the culture is what? And like what is. What is when we say we're building the Christian culture, what is culture? And why are we saying it in that way?
- [21:48]
Pastor Wes
Yeah, because culture just means worship. Right. And so that's again, I got that from Joe, like cultivating, like you're just, you're trying to cultivate worship into the, into your communities. And, and so that involves the Great Commission. It involves preaching the gospel. And so the whole idea. And again, you're just. It's just basic post millennialism.
- [22:06]
Jeff the Commoner Ninja
It's just a Great Commission.
- [22:07]
Pastor Wes
Yeah, you out you preach the gospel, people come to Christ. And the more people come to Christ, the more Christ's kingdom grows in this world. Yes, it's a spiritual kingdom that grows within this world. And then the whole idea is then the culture should be changing to reflect the hearts of the people. So you can't. You can't say, I'm gonna. I'm gonna lead my community to Christ, I'm gonna leave my neighbors to Christ, and then. Then what? Like, it has to. Something has to change. Something's gonna. Gonna give. You know, you don't just. The culture doesn't stay the same, you know, TV and in. In laws and legislatures and all that, like, that's gonna change. If the hearts of men all of a sudden love Jesus and love God's law, like, you have to implement those things into society. And that's why God spent a good chunk of the Old Testament talking about civil law codes. And, you know, he brings up the enemy. Was it. Was he this one or the last one? You know, so anyways, those. Those are the practical outworkings of what happens when people turn to Christ.
- [23:07]
Jeff the Commoner Ninja
So John 18 is what Pastor MacArthur was referring to there. It's a famous section. You already knew it before he said it. Had it memorized, probably John 18:33. So Pilate entered his headquarters again and called Jesus and said to him, are you the King of the Jews? Jesus answered, do you say this of your own accord, or did others say it to you about me? Pilate answered, am I a Jew? Your own nation and the chief priests have delivered you over to me. What have you done? Jesus answered, my kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting that I might not be delivered over to the Jews, but my kingdom is not of this world. Now, what typically happens is people quote that section, my kingdom is not of this world, as though Jesus was saying that he wasn't king of the world. Do you think that's what Jesus was saying here? Do you think that Jesus was denying to Pilate that he was the king of the world or king over Pilate? Do you think he was doing that? Because often how this is quoted by people, my kingdom is not of this world. And so what that means is that they're saying. They're trying to. They're trying to say that his kingdom is not in this world. And what we're saying is, no, no, Jesus isn't saying that. The pilot. He's not. He's not denying in any way to Pilate that He's the king of the world. He's not. And he's not denying that his kingdom is in this world, that his rule is in this world. Here's. Here's what I'm saying. It is such a. A mishandling of the word of God and a horrible proof texting when people will try to come against the idea that Christ rules in this world. He's on his throne, that his kingdom is in this world, and his kingdom is going to be successful in this world, and that the Great Commission is going to happen. When people try to get against those things by saying, my kingdom is not of this world, it's like, well, that's not even what the text is talking about. Jesus isn't denying to Pilate that he's the king. He's not. He's not denying again that his kingdom is in this world. He's saying, my kingdom is not of this world. And then MacArthur quoted it. Thankfully, he quoted the next part. He says, if my kingdom were of this world, if it was a kingdom like yours, Pilate, if it was a kingdom like with the Roman armies, if it was a kingdom like man's kingdom, he says, then my servants would have been fighting. Like, that's how the kingdoms of this world work, right? I mean, what do we do to. To flex our authority, to flex our sovereignty, to flex our power? What do we do? We send missiles, we fight. We destroy buildings, we kill people, we fight. We send armies. That's how the kingdoms of this world operate. They are of this world. That's what they do. And Jesus says, if it was of this world, my servants would have been fighting that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. So he's making the point to Pilate. If I was a king like you are of this world, my servants would have fought to stop me from being delivered over to you. Right? And that's what Jesus is saying. My kingdom's not of this world. It's not like that. But he's not saying it's not in this world. Jesus already told his followers that his kingdom was in this world and that he was the ruler of this world. He comes out of the wilderness preaching what? Repent for the kingdom of heaven, the rule of heaven, the kingdom of God is at hand. That's what Jesus comes out. So are we really going to take Jesus here as denying everything he's previously said about his kingdom coming out of the wilderness? He's affirming that he's the ruler, that he's the king, that he's the Davidic messianic king, the Son of man on his throne. Ultimately, we really. Is Jesus going to deny all of his teaching? Like when, for example, they're saying, oh, you know, he's casting out demons by Satan himself, like he's in league with Satan. And Jesus says, what if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. Are you really suggesting with this verse that Jesus is now denying all that? It's flipped on his head now that he didn't bring his kingdom, that he wasn't doing it by the Spirit of God. That's not what the text means at all. At all. And the New Testament bears that out. When the New Testament calls Jesus Lord of lords and King of kings, when John in his revelation says that Jesus is the ruler of the kings of the earth, that's the first century. John's making the claim that Jesus is the ruler of the kings of the earth in his day, that he's the Davidic messianic king. Right. And so I just don't understand how we don't see the tradition that this is laden with. Right. Like we're just going to say no, like we're going to lose down here. And. And Christ's kingdom is not of this world. So, like, Christians shouldn't view it that way, that it's actually here and he's ruling and reigning now. And Psalm chapter 2, where the Father says to the Son, ask of me. I'll give you the nations for your inheritance, the very ends of the earth for your possession. And he warns the kings of the earth to obey Jesus or they'll perish. I mean, are we saying that that's not true anymore? That Jesus didn't ask the Father for the nations, or that the Father's threat to the kings of the earth was a meaningless threat, that he doesn't expect them to obey Jesus? I mean, that's all in the word of God. There's no manipulation there. Just read the text. That's what the Bible says about the father, son relationship, the rule of Christ, the threats the Father makes to the kings of the earth, the rulers of the earth. And so it's just oftentimes, here's the thing. I want to just make sure we're being humble here always. We all have gaps in our thinking. We all have traditions for sure. And the key is to find those traditions, find those traditions, make them, have them yield to Scripture. And I think that what we found here, and Dr. MacArthur, is one of those traditions that he had that ultimately he never allowed the scriptures to test. And so we're going to get into some more important part of the more important part of the conversation here with Dr. MacArthur and just spend a few brief moments talking about the Steve Lawson controversy that just recently erupted in the last week online. And so stay with us guys. Do all the things that YouTube likes, by the way. Do all the likes, the shares, the subscribes, if you would. It helps to make sure that the world sees the content. YouTube recommends things, puts them in suggested videos so people get into this content, are blessed by it. So quick commercial break. Stay with us guys. We'll be right back. This episode's brought to you by ion layer@ionlayer.com Go and check out the health benefits, the wellness benefits and longevity benefits of NAD treatments. NAD is nicknamed the fountain of Youth for a reason. You have an abundance of this in your system when you're young. As you get older, it drops off. And now we found a way to get NAD into our systems. They do it through IV treatments, but they're very expensive and it's also extremely painful and difficult. However, Ion Layer found a way to get a high dose of NAD into your system through a medical patch you wear on your arm. You wear it for about 14 hours. You get a high dose of NAD treatment into your system and no pain at all. And it is a fraction of the cost of what you would pay for an IV treatment. In the coupon code, type in Apologia in all caps. They're going to hook you up with a great discount for an already amazingly cost effective product. And they bless Apologia studios and help us to stay on the air and do all these programs with you. Don't forget. Also, Ion Layer has added a glutathione patch as well. Glutathione, the master antioxidant. Go check out the health benefits of glutathione. I'm doing this stuff anyways. It's blessed my life in tremendous ways. And so if you want to focus on your health, wellness and longevity, nothing better in my mind than ionlayer.com for your NAD and Glutathione treatments. Ionlayer.com don't forget to put Apologia in all caps in the coupon code. Welcome back everybody to Apologia Radio, the gospel heard around the world talking today about Dr. John MacArthur and his view on end times Christian nationalism. He didn't quite answer the question about theonomy. I don't think that was a lot to throw at the Man. So we're gonna get right back into it. Here we go.
- [31:07]
Luke the Bear
His kingdom is not of this world. The kingdom of this world is a separate world. They're not linked together. Let me say it another way. Nothing that happens in any nation, whether it's a communist nation, a Muslim nation, or a quote unquote, quasi Christian nation or an atheistic nation, nothing in that nation, politically, socially, has anything to do with the advancement of the Kingdom of God.
- [31:42]
Jeff the Commoner Ninja
That is one of the craziest things imaginable. I have to say that I'm going to be as gracious as possible to the man. He's doing much better than all of us right now and understands. He understands better than all of us. But here, but here, while he was alive. This is just incoherent from a Christian perspective, from Christian theology, Christian soteriology. Nothing that happens in those nations has anything to do with the advancement of the Kingdom of God. Are you serious? Nothing. The rule of Christ. So. So let's say you have a nation where revival breaks out and people are turning to Christ in droves. Hearts are broken over their sin. They love and long for the Lord Jesus. And you've got kings, presidents, legislatures now filled with people who love Jesus, love God's law, they love God's word. And let's say that in that climate, in those circumstances, those people begin to advance things that are just. Light from the law of God and light from the gospel. And you have, let's say, the abolition of abortion on the basis of the word of God and the Christian Gospel. That has nothing to do with the advance of the kingdom of God. So the gospel proclamation happened. The Great Commission is underway. People are becoming disciples of Jesus. They want to love the Lord Jesus Christ and honor God's law. And they start instituting in their society a culture that worships Christ, yields to God's Word and loves God's law. And that has nothing to do with the advancement of the Kingdom of God. So Christ didn't do that.
- [33:23]
Dominion Wealth Representative
Right.
- [33:24]
Jeff the Commoner Ninja
He doesn't deserve glory for that. Nothing to do with the advancement of the Kingdom of God. I. I think it has everything to do with the advancement in the Kingdom of God. If the Great Commission is, is not simply wishful thinking, but a command of God and what God plans to do in the world, then when that actually happens and it's underway and it's actually transforming lives and hearts in the world and people now love God's law and God's standards of justice are being implemented in the culture and society has nothing to do with the kingdom of God? The advancement of the kingdom of God. I mean, didn't Jesus say it's like a mustard seed that grows into a tree, like leaven in a lump of dough? What did he mean by that? Leaven in a lump of dough is like it's in there and then it permeates the entirety of the loaf. That's what the rule of Christ does in the world. And that's what Jesus is saying. It's like leaven and a lump of dough. It permeates the entire thing. And yes, it's silent and yes, it's not always obvious at first that it's actually taking place, but over time you see it and it permeates the entire thing. And so nothing to do with the advancement in the kingdom of God. I just don't know how you could hold to a Calvinistic soteriology, right, about what God is able to do to save and how you can hold to the Scriptures and their promise about the future and then say that this has. Has nothing to do with the advancement of the kingdom of God. Shortly we're actually going to Armenia. We've got plans and preparations to go to Armenia to advance the cause of Christ and the gospel and God's standards of justice there and the issue of abortion and the abolition of abortion in Armenia. We've been able to do it in Germany and in Ireland, both in the north and the south. And we plan to do it even more and more. And it's just wild to me that somebody would say, yeah, that has nothing to do with. With the advancement of the kingdom of God. Also, I think he's. He's conflating issues and he keeps confusing things when he says the kingdom of the world has nothing to do with the kingdom of Christ. It's like, well, yeah, but what do you mean by that? Because what I view the scripture is saying that the kingdom of Christ comes into the world and it overcomes all the darkness. The darkness can't comprehend that light and it can't overcome it. And so we're talking about the kingdom of Christ here overwhelming the kingdom of darkness, right? We're not. We're not confusing the kingdoms of man and the kingdoms of this world with the kingdom of Christ. Were saying that Christ came to bring heaven to earth, the kingdom of God to earth, and it was going to fill the entire, the entirety of the earth. It was going to go from mustard seed to large tree. That doesn't sound like we lose leaven a lump of dough and permeate permeating the entirety of the loaf. Doesn't sound like we lose. And neither. Neither does Abraham having descendants as numerous as the sand on the scene, on the seashore. And so this. This was just so confusing. What. When you heard that, what'd you think?
- [36:08]
Pastor Wes
Yeah, thank you. I reminds me a lot of Gnosticism. And I'm not accusing Dr. McCarthy of heresy. Please hear me on that. But it sounds very gnostic when you start saying, well, they're, you know, Joe describes it as an upper story and lower. So it's like, well, there's the things of heaven. These are the good things stuff down here. We're just gonna lose. So, yeah, it's like when you start getting that, making that dichotomy, it's like, ooh, let's not do that. And it's just funny. I'm sitting here thinking, I see some. Some questions here, some good questions in the chat. But, like, you know, I think that we've talked about this a lot, but the culture is what it is because the church has stopped having the prophetic vision into the culture. We stopped telling our legislators, like, no, kiss the sun lest you get smoked. That's right, the Ben Merkel translation.
- [36:56]
Jeff the Commoner Ninja
Yeah.
- [36:56]
Pastor Wes
Like, we've stopped telling people, like, Christ is king. Like, you know, Jesus is Lord, Bow before him. And so I'm. I'm thinking back to MacArthur during COVID right? When. When they first implemented all the mandates and stuff, you know, they complied, which it would be an outworking of his theology. And it was funny. And we're thankful for. I mean, praise the Lord. We, you know, we did.
- [37:21]
Jeff the Commoner Ninja
And we're like, no, yeah, go pound.
- [37:24]
Pastor Wes
We will not do that.
- [37:25]
Jeff the Commoner Ninja
That's right.
- [37:26]
Pastor Wes
You know, but then all of a sudden, when things got real for them, I think their water was getting shut off and all this. Then John was like. Dr. McCarthy was like, no, we're not doing that anymore. And it's like, hold on. He's acting like a theonymous in the post Millennial. That's what we're talking about. That's where. That's where the Christian culture comes in. He's like, no, no, I'm not going to do that, because God's law is higher than man's law, and we're not going to stop meeting for church, you know, and he sued them and won and all, and it was. It was awesome. And he got a lot of praise. We're glad for that. But my point being, like, that was almost like an aberration into his theology. Yeah, you know, and anyways, you're making
- [38:03]
Jeff the Commoner Ninja
the phenomenal point is, first of all, the thing on Gnosticism, the Gnostics didn't think that God would sully himself with coming into this world, into this life. It's sin curse. He has nothing to do with it. So you've got this world that God's not really concerned with. He's really concerned about the heavenly things, the spiritual things. Those are the weighty things, the things of earth are not. The Gnostics were the enemies of the Christian church. So there's always these, like, tinges of Gnosticism that have plagued the church, like throughout its, throughout our history. But it's interesting too, because you and I had the same response when MacArthur initially shut down. Of course, it was distressing. Like his, his first response that we were getting inundated with when that happened. Remember that people were sending us MacArthur's comments on you, you know, you need to obey the government and all that stuff. His initial comments were all, obey, yield, obey to the government. And we were staying open and telling everyone. We weren't bragging about it, we're just saying no. You know, we believe the scripture's clear. We've looked at the data, we look what we're being told, and we're, we're resisting.
- [38:56]
Pastor Wes
We literally had people drive from his church just to come to our church service.
- [39:00]
Jeff the Commoner Ninja
Yeah. And people said people were. So people started hitting us up like, all for like two weeks with MacArthur's comments on, like, you're supposed to close, you have to yield to the government. But then it was a couple Months later, MacArthur came back and that sermon, do you remember the sermon Luke, that he preached, it was straight, post male fire. Yeah, that's what we said. We said, he sounds like a post millennialist here. Because at that moment when the rubber was meeting the road there in his life, he took with the theology that he knows about Christ and Christ's kingdom and God's law, and he just spit straight fire. And all we did was say. We said, praise God. Praise God. And so he resisted tyranny as a believer, and he proclaimed what he proclaimed the authority and lordship of Christ over governments. And he was saying that even the government needed to obey Jesus. We were like, that's all we're, that's all we're saying. That's, that's all we're saying. And so that there's all these, you know, there's always going to be tensions, right, with any of us where, where you have a tradition that's not Consistent with scripture, you're going to have that sort of, you know, ping pong effect of like, you know, you're saying and doing one thing and then all of a sudden, boom, you're saying and doing another. And it's just sort of like bouncing back and forth and there's just this inconsistency that becomes obvious in moments like during COVID with Dr. MacArthur. And so, yeah.
- [40:18]
Pastor Wes
Oh, the guy that asked that questions in the chat.
- [40:20]
Jeff the Commoner Ninja
Which question?
- [40:21]
Pastor Wes
Arno Bobajanian.
- [40:23]
Jeff the Commoner Ninja
Oh, right on.
- [40:24]
Pastor Wes
Welcome.
- [40:25]
Jeff the Commoner Ninja
Welcome to the show. Welcome to the show. I love too, how you came up and just, you know, looking smooth in that leather jacket, like, what up, Dr. MacArthur? No, the post millennialism theonomy. Good questions to ask the man. We're glad you gave this question because.
- [40:40]
Pastor Wes
Excellent question.
- [40:41]
Jeff the Commoner Ninja
It's important. It's important to think about these things because they dramatically impact, as a Christian, your praxis and what you do in the world, your future, how you raise your kids to think all of that.
- [40:54]
Luke the Bear
Because the kingdom of God is separate from that system. God in his sovereignty, is building his church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. Jesus said so the idea that you should.
- [41:10]
Jeff the Commoner Ninja
So, Dr. MacArthur, this is one of those moments too, right? I just said, like, ping pong effect, right? You say and do one thing and all of a sudden, bing, you're saying and doing another. Didn't we just hear at the beginning of the episode, Brother MacArthur say, We lose down here, we lose down here. But then here he quotes Jesus speaking about the gates of hell, not prevailing against the Church. Okay? So Christ sends us into the world with a great commission. Go win the nations, disciple the nations, teach them to obey me. Okay? So he MacArthur, and we'd all agree on this. That's what Christ's words were. That's the command to the church, go in the world, make disciples to the world of the world. Baptize them and teach them to obey me. And then MacArthur says, yeah, but that's actually a failed mission. It's we lose down here, period. But then he says here, as he's quoting scripture, which he does so well, he says the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church. So which is it? The Church is sent on a mission to win the world to Christ. Jesus says that the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church. Okay, don't forget, gates are defensive.
- [42:27]
Pastor Wes
Yep.
- [42:27]
Jeff the Commoner Ninja
We're just gonna say gates aren't moving. So that means the church is the one going. And. And the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church's mission. So the Church is going to knock down those gates and we're going to sack the enemy city. All right, so that, that's the portrait given by Jesus there, gates, our defensive posture. The Church is now coming and will prevail over the gates of hell and we will destroy the enemy. All right, but then. So MacArthur gives that. But then he says, and we lose, we lose down here. All we have ahead of us is just persecution. Now, we're not saying, as post millennialists, that the Scriptures give us promises that there isn't persecution along the way or tragedy, difficulties, death, decay along the way. That's part of the fallen world. That's the context we live in. Of course that's going to be a part of it, but it's a mustard seed that becomes a tree. The ultimate place is the tree. The ultimate place is the permeating the entirety of the loaf. So how do you hold those things together in your mind? Think about that Great Commission, the command of Christ, go get the nations. The gates of hell will not prevail against the Church. We're going to overcome those gates. The enemy will not be able to defend against us and we lose. So get that, get it. I love this clarity. We lose down here. How do you hold those things together? How? And that's notwithstanding all the promises of God, the certain words from God about the future of the world. Now we're not even talking about that yet. All those promises must be fulfilled. So it's an important conversation to have
- [43:58]
Luke the Bear
link up some political effort, some political process, some social process, some gain of power or influence in a culture as part of the advance of Christianity is alien to Christianity. You never have our Lord approaching anything like that, nor the apostles, and particularly the apostle Paul.
- [44:23]
Jeff the Commoner Ninja
So if the mission.
- [44:25]
Pastor Wes
Yep.
- [44:27]
Jeff the Commoner Ninja
Is make disciples of all the nations, and then you start doing that, and kings, rulers, people in authority, start actually loving Jesus and obeying Jesus, none of that matters. That's not significant. Like, that wasn't the ultimate goal. I mean, isn't the goal, Psalm chapter 2, that the nations are Christ's inheritance, the ends of the earth belong to him. And then the warning from the Father to the rulers of the world is that they must obey Jesus. Isn't that what we have to look forward to? Isn't that how we should go into the world with that kind of confidence? Don't you think that Paul, as he was planting churches and on his mission and proclaiming Christ and Christ as king and Christ as Kyrios, as Lord. Don't you think that that message that he had had something to do with Caesar? Like when, when Christians were saying Jesus is Lord, are we really. Are we really trying to suggest that. When Christians were saying that Jesus is kyotos and not Caesar, are we really trying to suggest that wasn't a political message, nothing to do with politics? I mean, Caesar certainly thought so. Caesar thought that the message Jesus is Lord was something that had to do with him and that's why he killed the Christians. Because these Christians are all saying that this Jesus Kurios and they won't say Kaiser curious that Caesar is Lord. See, at least Caesar understood Paul. Caesar understood Paul, Caesar understood Peter, and that's why he had them killed, because he understood it was a political message for sure, that it had something to do with him. So when people say, like, you know, oh, you know, Peter, Paul, like, you know, they didn't, they didn't have these organizations. They were specifically focused upon this area of, of legislation or whatever. And like, they weren't trying to like, just change those. No, no, actually it's better than that. They were actually trying to change everything with a simple message, Jesus is Lord, Jesus is kurios. And that meant over everything, over your legislature, over your laws, over your towns, over your cities. They were saying, above it all, something bigger. And over everything, the message Jesus is kurios was the thing that got the early Christians killed because it was without question, without a shadow of a doubt, a political message. And the politicians of their day understood it better than many of these premillennialists and dispensational premillennialists do.
- [46:59]
Pastor Wes
Yeah, and it's, it's really not fair to say, well, Christ wasn't doing those things. That wasn't his mission. That's not why he came. He didn't come to establish.
- [47:14]
Jeff the Commoner Ninja
He came to die for our sins.
- [47:15]
Pastor Wes
Yeah. He came to. Not to abolish the laws, but to fulfill it. Like, that was that. That was his words. He came to fulfill the law. There was things he needed to do. What, what Dr. McArthur just said, that wasn't Christ's mission. So it's not really fair to say, well, we shouldn't do it because Christ didn't do it. And you're exactly right. I was going to say, I'm also
- [47:30]
Jeff the Commoner Ninja
not dying for anyone's sins. Yeah, exactly.
- [47:32]
Pastor Wes
Exactly right.
- [47:33]
Jeff the Commoner Ninja
Yeah.
- [47:33]
Pastor Wes
Like, I was going to say the same thing. When it comes to see Christ is king, like, Rome bragged about all the different religions and, and they were because they were accepted very. Which sounds very familiar to our modern culture.
- [47:46]
Dominion Wealth Representative
Right.
- [47:46]
Pastor Wes
They accepted everyone except for the Christians. And the Christians were persecuted because they would not bow to Caesar because they said Christ is king, and that's why they were persecuted. And you're. You're exactly right. It's a political. It's a political message, and we can't. We can't live in this world as Christians without doing that.
- [48:06]
Jeff the Commoner Ninja
Yeah.
- [48:06]
Pastor Wes
Appropriately, they call.
- [48:07]
Jeff the Commoner Ninja
They call the early Christians atheists.
- [48:09]
Pastor Wes
Yeah.
- [48:09]
Jeff the Commoner Ninja
Because they didn't accept the Roman gods.
- [48:11]
Pastor Wes
Yeah.
- [48:11]
Jeff the Commoner Ninja
Right, right. And so they knew that they were saying, your gods don't exist and you're not actually the ruler of the world.
- [48:18]
Pastor Wes
Yeah.
- [48:19]
Jeff the Commoner Ninja
So they were saying those two things. Your gods don't exist. You're not the ruler of the world. Christ is God and Christ is your ruler. I mean, John says it in Revelation, Christ is the ruler of the kings of the earth. How. Please tell me. Help me to understand.
- [48:35]
Pastor Wes
Yeah.
- [48:35]
Jeff the Commoner Ninja
How can we not see that as a dramatic display in living color, vivid color to the world, that the apostles clearly viewed everything under the lordship and authority of Jesus Christ, that everything and everyone had to obey him? And it's just strange because if you were to ask, MacArthur is Christ King of kings and Lord of Lords? He would have said a yes and amen. He would never have denied that. Of course he would have. But he doesn't take that truth that he believes and understands and actually apply it appropriately and accurately to the world. And because of that, it's destructive. Because of that, it builds into the minds of Christians. This view of the future is that, you know, my missionary efforts are ultimately doomed to failure because this world we lose down here and the future is. Is not something we need to look forward to with a mission mindset as Christians. Like, how can I press Christ's crown rights and gospel there? How can I bring the message of the gospel into this place? So Christ has victory over that place specifically. And so this is ultimately destructive to the life and mission of the church, we believe.
- [49:39]
Pastor Wes
And real quick, Arno came in there, he said, this was March 13, 24 was MacArthur's last Q A session at Grace Community. He goes to Grace Community, and he's Persian Armenian.
- [49:52]
Jeff the Commoner Ninja
Oh, right on. Right on.
- [49:54]
Pastor Wes
Anyways, fun fact.
- [49:56]
Luke the Bear
He sought to gain no favor with the Roman Empire whatsoever, or for that matter, with any other of the rulers that he ran into during his life. Now, that is not to say that we are indifferent.
- [50:09]
Jeff the Commoner Ninja
And neither are we as post millennialists, trying to seek favor with. Right. We're trying to Win the rulers of the world with the gospel. We want to see them converted. Do you think that Paul didn't want to see them converted? Of course he did. He actually said so. He wanted to see them believe in Jesus. So of course he wanted them converted. So, like this whole it's. It's almost like this, this sort of twisting of the perspective. Right. Not steel, manning it, straw, manning it. Right. You know, curry a favor with, try to get favor with. No, we want to see them converted. So like, for example, in the area of just, just one area for us, the area of the abolition of abortion, we come to the legislature preaching Christ and God's got God's law and his gospel, calling him to repentance and calling him to establish justice.
- [50:53]
Pastor Wes
Trust me, that's not gaining favor with any of them.
- [50:56]
Jeff the Commoner Ninja
They don't like us. The Christians do. They don't like us, though. But it also creates many phenomenal opportunities. I've talked to so many of our legislators who have said because they did this, because they put the bill in, they've been able to preach Christ to their legislature like they never could before. Yeah, because it's all about Christ and all about God's law and all about the gospel.
- [51:15]
Luke the Bear
So what happens in the nation? We've been talking about that the last couple of Sunday mornings. We have to be the people who uphold righteousness. When we come to vote, we want to vote for that which is the most righteous option.
- [51:36]
Jeff the Commoner Ninja
Why? Why? I thought we lose down here. I thought these things ultimately have nothing to do with the advancement of the kingdom of God. Why? That's the kingdom of the world stuff, John. That's kingdom of the world stuff. Like, that's not. We have, you know, pay no mind to that. Like we've got this heavenly story over here, the kingdom of God story out here. But this is just like the world stuff. Like, there's just, there's nothing there. So, like, why also we lose down here. So what's the point of voting for righteousness? What's the point? Are we trying to accomplish anything? Are we trying to be obedient to some word from God in doing that? What's the point?
- [52:18]
Luke the Bear
See, we can't vote in righteousness, but we have to vote in a way that reflects our commitment to the righteousness of God.
- [52:30]
Jeff the Commoner Ninja
But we lose. Just know, vote that way, do those things. But it has nothing to do with the advancement of the kingdom of God. Has nothing to do with ultimately Jesus. You see how it's not making sense. See how you struggle understanding, like you're living in two different worlds. One foot's on scripture and the full authority of Jesus Christ and the mission of the church, and one foot's in pessimism and we lose. And that tradition, that just doesn't coincide with it, doesn't work with it.
- [52:56]
Pastor Wes
And his statement about not voting in righteousness, if he's talking about righteousness before God, yes, agreed. But I don't think that's what he meant. You know, we would say you absolutely can vote in righteous laws. You know, that's what legislation is. It's, it's gotta, it's a standard of some sort. It's either God's standard or man's standard. And so we're. You can absolutely put in laws, vote in laws that have a righteous foundation in Scripture. So.
- [53:27]
Jeff the Commoner Ninja
Yeah. And Luke, are we, are we really suggesting that just look, America is not the main thing in, in church history. Okay? We need to stop thinking like that.
- [53:37]
Pastor Wes
Right?
- [53:37]
Jeff the Commoner Ninja
But we did have, early on in this experiment of America, we did early on have Christian influence in everything. In the laws, in the government, you had a requirement even to, to be a legislator that you had to be a trinitarian Christian. All of that is, is a, is a, is a part of our history. And are we really suggesting that when there were Christian laws on the books, that, that wasn't a, what's the word I'm looking for here? That wasn't an admission that we see Jesus as lord and king over this? So, for example, when you had laws against homosexuality, when you had laws in particular, laws that were Christian laws in, in whatever sphere, that, that had nothing to do with the rule of Christ at all? I mean, don't you think it did? The indecency laws, blasphemy laws, the laws we have in our, in our current even situation where we have laws that protect people against unlawful searches and seizures, that demand evidence and witness before you can get a warrant, the laws against self incrimination, all of that, that has nothing to do with the rule of Christ and God's law. Of course it is. I mean, there's a whole history behind all of our constitutional laws and the Bill of Rights, a whole history of Christian history that goes back into England and, and further back where they were explicitly pointing to the law of God and the rule of Christ in these things. Of course it had something to do with the rule of Christ. I just don't understand how we can come to these conclusions. They don't make sense. There's a contradiction. Is, is a polite way of saying it. And so we're going to do a quick commercial break, everyone, if you're just getting to us right now, thank you for joining us. If you would click all the things that YouTube likes, the likes, the shares and the subscriptions. If you would go to apologiastudios.com.com Sign up for all Access. Partner with us in this ministry and we're going to come right back with more comments and then also deal with the Steve Lawson situation. Stay with us.
- [55:33]
Greg Bonson
Hey, Bonds and you Live is finally here. Join me on June 29th for our very first live session available exclusively to All Access members at Apologia Studios. As you work through the incredible lectures of Dr. Greg Bonson, you're bound to have questions about apologetics, theology, philosophy and the Christian faith. That's exactly what bonsing you live is for. Once a month I'll be hosting an interactive live stream where you could engage directly with me, ask your questions and dive deeper into the topics that you're studying. Whether you're new to presuppositional apologetics or looking to sharpen your understanding of the Christian worldview, this is your opportunity to learn, to interact and to grow alongside a community of like minded believers. So join me on June 29th for our first Bonson U Live exclusively at
- [56:18]
Pastor Wes
apologiastudios.com this video is brought to you by Amtech Blades. We are very excited to be partnering with Amtech. Bill Rapier, longtime Navy SEAL, DevGur operator, amazing brother and friend looking for a battle ax to carry on your person to chop some wood. They've got you covered. Looking for a blade to carry on you every day. Also got you covered. Look at this. I got to check my mail. What do we got going on here? Oh, look how sharp that is. What is this? Oh, 5% off. You can go to amtac blades.com put apology in the coupon code, get 5% off your order and he will match that and give 5% to end abortion. Now again, amtec blades.com we're grateful for them. Check them out.
- [57:03]
Jeff the Commoner Ninja
Welcome back everybody. So quick, couple more seconds of Dr. MacArthur here and then we're going to get right into the Steve Lawson controversy that just erupted over the last week. Here we go.
- [57:13]
Luke the Bear
We couldn't possibly elect somebody who was an abortionist, somebody who was LGBTQ or LGBTQ affirming or any other deviation from God's righteous moral standards.
- [57:28]
Jeff the Commoner Ninja
Why not? Why not? Because the kingdom of this world, we've got nothing to do with that stuff, right? Or are we called as Christians to overwhelm that kingdom of darkness with the kingdom of God's dear son, the kingdom of light. Isn't that what isn't that what you're saying is that we don't vote for those things because we're Christians and Christ has a mission. The church has a mission. And so we're being told, on the one hand, we've got nothing to do with this stuff. There's no real intersection here. And on the other hand, make sure you don't vote for, you know, abortion, abortionists and people who are for abortion. You're living in two different worlds. There's a contradiction.
- [58:05]
Luke the Bear
It gets harder, doesn't it, nowadays? Because even sometimes when politicians are more conservative and anti abortion, they may be sinful and wicked in some other categories, and it's very hard to find out who is really honest and who is simply dishonest and seeking power.
- [58:29]
Jeff the Commoner Ninja
Amen. Amen to that, man. It's a dirty world. The world of the legislature is a dirty, dirty, ugly, ugly world.
- [58:39]
Luke the Bear
But in the end, we do what we can with the understanding that the responsibility of the church is not to advance the kingdom of this world.
- [58:50]
Jeff the Commoner Ninja
Postmillennialists do not believe that. Post millennialists do not believe that. Actually, I don't even know any Christian nationalists, even aberrant views of Christian nationalism that would say that they were trying to advance the kingdom of this world.
- [59:04]
Luke the Bear
Yeah, I can't think of anybody that's a faulty viewpoint. Christian nationalism is usually tied to what is called post millennialism.
- [59:14]
Jeff the Commoner Ninja
Not necessarily. And if you see the different versions of Christian nationalism today, you'll see that very clearly. Some Christian nationalists have versions today of Christian nationalism, and they abhor post millennialism and theonomy. And so there's not necessarily a connection. People can come to a position of Christian nationalism totally devoid of the scriptures, church history, post millennialism, all of that.
- [59:39]
Luke the Bear
And that is the view that the church, somehow, by influencing the culture, can bring in the kingdom of Christ.
- [59:47]
Jeff the Commoner Ninja
No, bring in Christ brought in his kingdom. He brought in his kingdom.
- [59:53]
Pastor Wes
That's nar.
- [59:54]
Jeff the Commoner Ninja
Yeah. Post millennials do not believe that we bring in the kingdom of Christ. Christ brought the kingdom on time as planned, fell into prophecy, Daniel's prophecies about the timing of the kingdom. Christ says that he brought the kingdom in. The early apostles taught that Christ was king, ruling on David's throne. Already on David's throne. Right now. He brought his kingdom in. Right now what you're seeing is the advancement of the rule of Christ in the world and him pressing that, that his rule into the world. And so I don't think that MacArthur actually accurately gave to people, gave people an accurate understanding of post millennialism, which makes me think that he didn't fully understand it himself.
- [60:33]
Pastor Wes
Well, that's a misnomer. That's used against our position a lot. And it's not our position. It's like I said, it's a new apostolic reformation. It's a seven mountain mandate. And these people literally believe that they're going to. They have seven mountains within culture, and they're going to win each of those mountains. And when they win them, then they're going to usher in Christ's kingdom. That's what they teach, that's what they believe. It's nothing at all what we believe and teach. And it's commonly used as an argument against post millennialism. And it's sad that MacArthur didn't recognize that.
- [61:01]
Jeff the Commoner Ninja
Right.
- [61:02]
Luke the Bear
In other words, it's the idea not that Christ returns and sets up his kingdom, but that the Church establishes his kingdom and then hands it to him.
- [61:12]
Jeff the Commoner Ninja
No, no. And you do see there, watch this. You do see, MacArthur's thinking here is that Christ's kingdom is yet to come. Now, I know, I know that he has a already but not yet aspect to his thinking. And by the way, you have to do that because you can't deny what the Scriptures say about Christ actually bringing his king kingdom and establishing in the first century. So he'll have an already, yeah, it's here, but not really, it's coming later perspective. And so that you start to see the sharp distinction now between I think, what the Scriptures clearly teach about the timing of the Messiah, the kingdom, and that Christ actually brought it. And he's on David, his throne now, right now. He's not waiting to be seated. Christ is seated on his throne. You see the distinction now between two perspectives. MacArthur believes that it's yet to come. Right? And again, I know he says already, but not yet, but really what he means is already, but not real, but not really. And so that's. That's the problem here. But post millennialists see that Christ brought his kingdom. He's on David's throne now. And that kingdom is just growing now and expanding around the world through the proclamation of the Gospel. It's as simple as that.
- [62:22]
Luke the Bear
That is not what Scripture teaches. What Scripture teaches is what we are learning from the Book of Revelation. Things are going to get worse and worse and worse. And the end of human history. Is not the Church triumphant, reigning in the world and taking over the structures of human kingdoms. That's not what happens at the end of human history. The believers are persecuted and murdered, and that's the very opposite of what Christian nationalism would anticipate.
- [62:59]
Jeff the Commoner Ninja
And he's just wrong here. I think he's actually combining a particular perspective on the Great Tribulation, the Olivet discourse, and the Book of Revelation. He sees the Great Tribulation as something future to us. We would see the Great Tribulation as something past in fulfillment that Jesus promised it was all going to happen before they all died, and it in fact did. And his view of, of Revelation is connected in, in large measure to that perspective. And so we've done many, many episodes on this. Lots and lots of teaching on this. But I think that he's simply wrong there about his perspective of the future. I think if you look at Isaiah 42, Isaiah chapter 2, Isaiah chapter 11, if you look at the promises of God throughout the Old Testament in the Psalms, but in particular, just listen to the APostle Paul in 1st Corinthians 15, just listen to Paul there. He gives you a timeline of human history. He says Christ is reigning on his throne now, and he must reign until every enemy has made a footstool for his feet. And then the last enemy to be defeated is death. That's the timeline. That's a trajectory of history. And it's not something that fits within Dr. MacArthur's model and his perspective. Now we're going to get into just briefly make some comments on the Steve Lawson situation. So many of you guys know that sadly, Steve Lawson was disqualified from pastoral and Christian ministry due to issues of infidelity and unfaithfulness to his wife. And so we're not going to go into all those details now, but this is something that is rather recent in our history. And after Steve Lawson essentially was caught, he came out with a letter of repentance and pleading for forgiveness, confession of sin, and. And he essentially disappeared from the public view. However, last week, Protestia.
- [64:52]
Pastor Wes
Oh, our friends over there.
- [64:54]
Jeff the Commoner Ninja
Protestia posted. Now, here's the thing. Some of this stuff has been scrubbed at this point. The initial things about Steve Lawson and the conference, some of the stuff has changed. So, for example, looking here on July 19, Protestia said Steve Lawson has returned and will be speaking at a Christian conference. So that was the post. And if you want to show that, Gabe, be good to show it. There's the post. Protestia. Steve Lawson has returned and will be speaking at a Christian conference. And there's a, you know, picture of the conference webpage. Meet the speakers. Lawson's picture is there. So Protestia posts this. This went wild. Many people were talking about this. And then Protestia had to come out with Steve Lawson not speaking at upcoming preaching conference Exclusive regarding Steve Lawson, we can confirm that the conference organizers advertised Lawson's participation without his knowledge or concern consent. They invited him to be a speaker, but before hearing that he intended to decline, there was an internal misunderstanding that he would agree. As soon as he found out about it, he informed them of his declining the offer and they promptly removed him from the lineup. All right, so here's what happened. Protestia posts this that he's speaking at a conference. Everybody just started sharing this and vilifying Lawson just dragging him. Him just dragging him. And what actually was true was that Lawson had not agreed to be in the conference, but the people who were organizing the conference had put him up assuming he would come. But he wasn't coming. Protestia shared this and apparently Protestia, when they shared it, had not actually contacted the conference itself to ask the question. The simple question, is it true that Steve Lawson is speaking at your conference? And he has confirmed it's as simple as that. Simple phone call, simple email before it's shared. Is this true that he's going to be there? Because it's a big deal. Look, okay, Steve Lawson is disqualified for ministry. Then you see him pop up in a conference website. Okay, that's crazy. But shouldn't we do the checks and balances first to make sure that we have integrity, journalistic integrity, which would just be basic Christian integrity, that what I'm about to share with everybody is actually the truth. It was unfortunate because man, were people. Did you see some of the stuff?
- [67:42]
Pastor Wes
No, I was on my sabbatical and I did not see any of dragging him.
- [67:46]
Jeff the Commoner Ninja
I mean, you decide the reform world, we love to eat our own for sure.
- [67:50]
Pastor Wes
Oh yeah.
- [67:50]
Jeff the Commoner Ninja
And you know, there's every category of Christianity does, but man, the reformed world loves to eat our own. And, and you just saw in all the reform pages and everything else just dragging Lawson. I mean, he just got vilified for at least 24 hours, I think. And even men that we love and respect, like Justin Peters, like, you know, he saw what Protestia did, he immediately posted on it. He had things to say. Since then, after Justin Peters learned that it was an error, Justin Peters scrubbed his page of that. And then he gave an explanation on his ex account as to why he posted what he did. And he said, here I've taken down my post about Steve Lawson speaking at the contending for The Faith conference protestia's reporting of Steve being listed as a speaker being the result of an internal misunderstanding that led him to assume he would agree is still puzzling to, to me. So then Justin, who we love, we love Justin. Deep level respect for him. Then he goes on to explain, you know, the understandable. Like he saw the post. The assumption is, is that this is actually true, it's actually happening. It seemed real. But then Justin goes on to apologize later for, you know, sharing something that wasn't true. But see, here's the problem. So many people did, so many people just shared something that wasn't in fact true. And Lawson got dragged for something that he didn't even do. And so how. I wonder if there's a rule book somewhere or a book somewhere that gives us guidance and wisdom to avoid situations like this. Is there a book somewhere? Is there somewhere we can go to access rules. There might be, right? Like the rules of engagement in situations like this. Like if you. And here's the problem. We live in a world where it's fast paced like scroll, scroll, scroll, shorts, TikTok and all the rest. And everyone wants to be first. But you know what? Wisdom is not necessarily trying to be first. Wisdom is trying to be right. Right. Wisdom is trying to be righteous and godly, not first. And everyone today wants to just be first. Oh look, I saw it. Share it right before you've done your checks and balances, you hear a story about pastors or somebody else and you just go, oh my goodness, share.
- [70:02]
Dominion Wealth Representative
Right?
- [70:02]
Jeff the Commoner Ninja
I mean we've been, we went on the butt end of that, We've been on the butt end of that many, many times where somebody will make a claim, they'll say something, they'll do a message on it or a program on it, or they'll write an article about it and they'll share it and we'll see it and we'll go, where in the world? This is false. This is complete fiction. I've even had people write things about me and I've contacted them. What you're saying is not true. It's provably not true. I can share the witnesses to you. This is. This never happened. You are lying about us, you're lying about our ministry, you're lying about me. And they didn't care. They just shared it anyway because it just shares too dang good. And, and those. That's, that's the really just over the top example of how people will do this in this day and age. But everyone just wants to be first. Rather than being wise.
- [70:48]
Pastor Wes
There's a reason why tabloids and TMZ and stuff like that have existed all these years and done well, because sinful hearts just really want to just participate in that kind of garbage and.
- [70:59]
Jeff the Commoner Ninja
Right.
- [70:59]
Pastor Wes
Sadly, it's a problem within the church, and social media has made that so accessible. And it's just gross.
- [71:06]
Jeff the Commoner Ninja
It is, and it's gross. And Jesus said on the last day, people are going to be held to account for every idle word. Every idle word. And that, I think, counts especially, of course, to social media and the things that you type with your little fingers, and then I type with my little fingers.
- [71:24]
Pastor Wes
Big fingers in my case.
- [71:25]
Jeff the Commoner Ninja
Big fingers in your case for sure. But there was. There's a pastor that I know, Jerry. Doris. I just shared what he said about this.
- [71:36]
Pastor Wes
I saw what he said was good.
- [71:37]
Jeff the Commoner Ninja
I just shared what Jerry said about this, and I'm gonna. I'm gonna share it with you right now because I thought this was perfect. Jerry did a fine job with this. He said, this. Here's how you publicly repent for piling on Steve Lawson. And he gives a quote for people to. To post. I deleted my post about Steve Lawson. I failed to believe the best of him and spread information I had not verified. Proverbs 18:13. That's a book of wisdom, by the way. I sinned against him and against God by hearing only one side and being too quick to speak. James 1:19. Because my sin was public, my confession must also be public. Proverbs 28:13. Please forgive me. Luke 17, 3, 4. He said, Feel free to copy and paste. Good on you, Jerry. Good on you. Look, what Steve Lawson did is heartbreaking, discouraging, painful, without question. But the man put out public confession of sin and his repentance and says he's trying to get his life back together right now and trying to restore his marriage with his wife. Okay, what if your sin and sanctification was public? How would you feel? Would you want people to be merciful to you and gracious to you? You were trying to trust in God that a God who actually forgives me for my heinous sins in life. Wouldn't you want people to say, like, you know, we're going to believe the best about you, that God is doing something in you. I mean, we're all wretches. Not one of us is beyond face plants and sinning and falling short. Okay, so what he did was a blight upon the Christian church. Amen. Agreed completely. But he wasn't stubborn about it and obstinate he was saying, you're right, I'm sinful. God, forgive me. Please pray for me. Please pray for me that God restores all this that I destroyed. Please pray. Okay. Praise the Lord. Thank you, God, for your mercy. Thank you, God. We all need that mercy, but most of our sins are not. And sanctification is not public like his. Okay, so we can't feel the weight of that, many of us. But everyone dragged the man who's already, can we say it? Suffering because of his sin. Yeah, he's already suffering because of his sin. And then everyone just goes, drag him. Oh, how dare you. And it's like the man's going, I had nothing to do with it. I had nothing to do. So for 24 hours, maybe some of you just drag the man who's already suffering because of his sin and asking for prayer and for God's mercy and forgiveness. I will say this. I'm sure it is hard, hard, hard, hard to believe those promises of God for forgiveness when you've sailed, when you've sinned so publicly and so powerfully. The man probably struggles with trusting God's promises about forgiveness. Like, could you even forgive me, God? He's probably having to work on that. And then just to get dragged, dragged by people who never even picked up the phone or sent an email to the conference to say, is that true? Is he really speaking at your conference? Because I would respect the person who published something that said no. I talked to the conference. I've got the record. I talked to them. They confirmed he's coming. That's not your fault. You shared something with confirmation. You didn't just listen to one side. You checked it out. You did all your checks and balances the scripture calls you to do. Okay, fine, you shared it. Maybe it was turned out to be error later, but you did your homework and you did what you're supposed to do. You were wise in this case. You didn't do it. People didn't do it.
- [75:23]
Pastor Wes
That's the difference between real journalism and tmz.
- [75:27]
Jeff the Commoner Ninja
Yes, Just do what wisdom calls you to do. If you're going to share a story about somebody that's going to have them slandered and vilified. You have to make sure that you've checked the witnesses and the evidence. Nobody would want this done to themselves. And that's the point. What is Jesus standard? Treat others the way you want to be treated. Would you want, or would I want somebody sharing a story about us publicly? And it gets legs on it without checking with us first? Or checking to see if it was actually true to begin with. It sucks. It does. We've been in ministry for a long time, long time, many years of ministry. And I can't tell you at this point how many articles and videos and things have been shared about us and yours truly that we look at and go, complete fiction, false. God help them. God help them. It hurts. It hurts really bad. And nobody would want that done to themselves. And so we shouldn't do it to Steve Lawson or anybody else. There's a book in the Bible that tells you exactly how to manage these things, and we'd be all the better off by following it. And so my prayer is for Steve Lawson. Restoration, redemption of this whole situation for his family. I know it hurts. I know it's painful, but God saves sinners, not the righteous. And some of our greatest heroes in scripture had catastrophic collapses of their lives, and God restored and redeemed them. And that's what I want for him. Jerry said it, right? Thank you for that, Jerry. If you see this man, that was. That was excellent. So praise the Lord, guys. Thank you guys for watching with us today. Don't forget to go to apologiastudios.com Go sign up for All Access. Guys, partner with us in ministry. More is coming. Go and give towards the fundraising as we give you a brand new apologia studios@ apologiastudios.com give. Thank you with all my heart to everybody who's given towards it already. We're already underway. The plan is to start building even more next week and getting to work on that. Don't forget to go to the store@apologiastudios.com pick up some tracks and some shirts and some things. All that. That helps to bless the ministry, support the ministry. Also, Luke's made some amazing designs there, so he makes some great shirts. So go check that out, Luke.
- [77:52]
Pastor Wes
Yeah, of course we want to mention, excuse me, Dominion Wealth. You saw their ad at the beginning. We're so grateful for those guys have been such amazing partners with us. You can go to Reform money and check them out and encourage everyone to get a free consultation with them. And then Heritage Defense, our dear friend Bradley Pierce, who I know is just continually a very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very busy man.
- [78:13]
Jeff the Commoner Ninja
Yeah, yeah.
- [78:15]
Pastor Wes
And on call sometimes. So if you are. If you are homeschooling your children, Please go to heritage defense.org Put apology in the coupon code. Get your first month free.
- [78:25]
Jeff the Commoner Ninja
All right, everybody, we're gonna go to the after show over@apologystudios.com just for a couple minutes over there. Come join us. Come hang out with us at the after show. Apologiesstudios.com if you're all access. We're going to spend some more time with you guys, talk about a few more things. Thank you guys for so much. So much for being in ministry with us, partnering with us and for praying for us. Don't forget everybody if you're in Illinois, first bill of abolition, equal protection was filed this year. We need the church to make sure this bill passes and we establish justice for the preborn. So join us August 4th. I'm going to put the link after the program into the description here. You have to RSVP for it. It's in Winfield, Illinois, not far from Chicago. 5:30pm Start time. It's coming soon. You do have to RSVP. Let everybody know in Illinois this is going on. We need to work together as a church to actually have this bill pass. And I'll say to you what I said at the beginning of the show today. The legislators I spoke to earlier in the year told me specifically they did not believe the church in Illinois wanted this bill. We need to make sure that we show them they're wrong about that. And so we need to rise up together as a church to establish justice for these pre born abolish abortion in the state of illinois. We're coming August 4th, 5:30pm don't forget to sign up on RSVP. We'll catch you next week right here on Apologia Radio.