580. Fauci, the 5th Amendment, Guilt, and the Bible

Summary

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Apologia Radio Ep. 580: "Fauci, the 5th Amendment, Guilt, and the Bible"

Date: July 31, 2026
Host: Jeff Durbin (with Luke the Bear)
Theme: Gospel Driven, Hard Hitting, Culturally Relevant

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Episode Overview

This episode of Apologia Radio dives into the recent congressional hearing with Anthony Fauci, where he invoked the Fifth Amendment over 100 times. Jeff Durbin and Luke the Bear examine not only why Fauci pleaded the fifth, but the biblical roots of the right against self-incrimination, its relevance to justice, and the dangers of conflating legal rights with assumptions of guilt. The show also ties historical Christian influence on Western law to present debates about government accountability, justice, and righteousness.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Biblical Foundations for the Fifth Amendment

• God’s Law as the Root: Jeff asserts that many Western legal principles—including the right against self-incrimination—are ultimately grounded in biblical law. He references Deuteronomy 19:15, which requires more than one witness for a legal charge.

  "A single witness shall not suffice against a person for any crime... Only on the evidence of two witnesses or of three witnesses shall a charge be established." (Deuteronomy 19:15) [02:26]

• Psalm 119 & Romans 3: Emphasis is placed on the enduring goodness of God’s law.

  "If you want to know our perspective on the law of God summarized, I would say please go and read Psalm 119... The law of God is good. The law of God blesses the world." (Jeff, [09:20])

2. Fauci’s Hearing: Pleading the Fifth (with Audio Clips)

• Fauci’s Repeated Invocation: Fauci declined to answer basic and incriminating questions, invoking the Fifth Amendment’s protection against self-incrimination over 100 times.

  "On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline to answer based upon my rights under the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution." (Fauci, recurring, e.g. [33:39+])

• Contrast With Earlier Statements: Clips highlight Fauci’s 2021 assertion, "I have no trouble testifying...We can defend and explain and stand by everything that we've said." ([13:24])

3. Critical Congressional Moments

• Tense Exchanges: Senators Rand Paul, Josh Hawley, and Moreno grilled Fauci, with memorable standoffs involving Fauci’s attorneys being removed for disrupting proceedings ([16:45-18:37]) and demands for Fauci to acknowledge attendees affected by his policies ([47:14-48:46]).
• Senator Moreno’s Direct Appeal:

  "Doctor Frederick. You just turn around and look at the people behind you... You can't even look at them." (Senator Moreno, [48:14])

4. Is Pleading the Fifth Admission of Guilt?

• Jeff’s Strong Warning Against Presumption: Jeff pushes back against the implication (raised by Sen. Hawley) that invoking the Fifth implies guilt.

  "We can't get to a place where if somebody pleads the fifth...that that means that they're automatically guilty...Now do Jesus. When Jesus stayed silent when he was being accused, was that an admission of guilt on Jesus part? No." (Jeff, [28:27-29:04])

• Christ’s Example: The example of Jesus’s silence at his own trial is held up as the ultimate exercise of the right against self-incrimination ([19:20-19:54], [29:04+]).
• Ultimate Judge:

  "The Christian worldview says that there will be justice. Ultimately God will be the judge. He will not let Fauci get away with this." (Jeff, [62:14-62:31])

5. The Limits of Presidential Pardons and the Law

• Josh Hawley’s Legal Point: Citing Brown vs. Walker (1896), Hawley claims that a pardon strips a person of Fifth Amendment privilege ([34:08]):

  "You don't have any rights under the fifth amendment because you've been pardoned...When he has been pardoned, he may not stand upon his privilege."

• Biblical Principle Over Human Ruling: Jeff disagrees, arguing that biblical standards for justice cannot be overridden by Supreme Court rulings:

  "It doesn't matter what gathering of men in black robes say, if what they say is contradicting the law of God, which is abiding and eternal." (Jeff, [35:00+])

6. Public Memory and Real-World Impact of COVID Policies

• Personal and Anecdotal Stories: Jeff and Luke recall the toll of COVID restrictions, business closures, forced masking, and church displacements, particularly their experiences in Kauai ([49:07-55:16]).

  "This man's nonsense and the things that he advocated for really genuinely harm people...they were literally saying, we're going to starve." (Jeff, [50:07-50:51])

• Media Censorship: The team shares experiences of needing to avoid keywords online ("Joe's Cookies" instead of "COVID vaccine") to prevent censorship and deplatforming ([55:16]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• "We cannot let somebody say they're speaking truth when they're not." (Jeff, [02:09])
• "He [Fauci] appealed to that Fifth Amendment and he did it over a hundred times. Did you watch it?" (Jeff, [11:55])
• "I think the man's a scoundrel. I think he's a disgraceful, despicable human being. I think he's guilty, and I want justice to fall flat on his head. But we're talking about a principle here, and this principle is sacred as part of God's law." (Jeff, [29:04-30:50])
• Clip: Senate Chair forcing Fauci’s attorney to leave.

  "You are not recognized, sir. Security, please remove him from the room." (Sen. Rand Paul, [18:37])

• Senator Moreno’s audience moment:

  "All you have to do is look up from your lawyers and look at the people who were absolutely shamed for saying what we know now to be the truth. You can't even look at him." ([48:26])

• Final Reflection:

  "We can't abandon justice so that he gets nailed today...I hope it's clear, is that we so want Fauci to receive justice on this side of heaven, that we're kind of mocking God's standards of the right against self incrimination because we so desperately want him to get nailed today...But we can't abandon justice so that he gets nailed today." (Jeff, [63:11-63:50])

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• [01:15-03:05] — Opening, the show's mission, recap of recent ministry and news about an upcoming abolition bill in Illinois.
• [09:19-12:14] — Discussion begins on the enduring nature and purpose of biblical law.
• [13:24-15:44] — Montage of Fauci pleading the Fifth, including tongue-in-cheek parody clips.
• [16:45-18:37] — Rand Paul removes Fauci’s attorney for disruption.
• [19:07-19:54] — The biblical basis for silence in self-defense, as seen in Christ’s trial.
• [27:58-34:35] — Deep dive into the legal/principle debate about pardons, fifth amendment privilege, and biblical justice.
• [47:14-48:46] — Senator Moreno asks Fauci to look at victims; Fauci refuses.
• [49:07-55:16] — Personal stories about the real world damage of COVID policies.
• [58:30-59:19] — Rand Paul’s closing statement, history’s judgment, and poetic coda to the hearing.
• [59:19-62:31] — Final reflections on justice, law, vengeance, and hope.

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Takeaways & Conclusions

• The Right Against Self-Incrimination Is Sacred: The episode argues passionately that the Fifth Amendment—and its biblical precedent—exists to protect both the innocent and the guilty, and should not be undermined even in cases of obvious wrongdoing.
• Jesus as the Model: Christ’s silence under false accusation is presented as the perfect exercise of this right by the innocent, and a rebuke to the notion that silence equals guilt.
• Justice and Trust: Christians must resist the urge to pervert justice for immediate satisfaction, trusting instead that ultimate justice lies with God.
• Principles Over Outrage: Even despicable figures deserve just process, lest the very foundations of fairness and biblical law are eroded for all.
• Action Steps: Urging listeners—especially in Illinois—to participate in efforts for abolition legislation, and more broadly, to defend justice and righteousness at every societal level.

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Summary Flow
Engaging, urgent, and unflinching in tone, Jeff and Luke blend scriptural exegesis, cultural critique, and pointed humor. The episode’s substance is equal parts biblical reflection and civic polemic, aiming to stir Christians to cherish and defend God’s standards of justice, even (and especially) when it chafes against emotional instincts to see retribution in the here and now.

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"We have to trust in a God who will bring the justice...we so want Fauci to receive justice on this side of heaven, that we're kind of mocking God's standards...But we can't abandon justice so that he gets nailed today."
— Jeff Durbin ([63:11])

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Transcript

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[Jeff Durbin]

Non Rockabotus Must stop. I don't want to rock the boat. I want to sink it.

[Anthony Fauci (portrayed in clips)]

Are you gonna bark all day, little doggy?

[Jeff Durbin]

Or are you gonna bite? Delusional. Yeah, delusional is okay in your worldview, I'm an animal. You don't chastise chickens for being delusional. You don't chastise pigs for being so. You calling me delusional Using your worldview is perfectly okay. It doesn't really hurt. She hung up on me.

[Senator Josh Hawley]

Desperate times call for faithful men and

[Jeff Durbin]

not for careful men.

[Senator Josh Hawley]

The careful men come later and write the biographies of the faithful men, lauding

[Jeff Durbin]

them for their courage.

[Luke the Bear]

Go into all the world and make disciples. Not go into the world and make buddies. Not to make corrosives. Don't go in the world. Make homies.

[Senator Rand Paul]

Right.

[Luke the Bear]

Disciples.

[Jeff Durbin]

I got a bit of a jiggle neck. That's a joke, Pastor. When we have the real message of truth, we cannot let somebody say they're speaking truth when they're not.

[Senator Rand Paul]

Take an amazing journey to a place

[Jeff Durbin]

that will blow your mind and move your mind so you will never be the same again. A single witness shall not suffice against a person for any crime or for any wrong in connection with any offense that he has committed. Only on the evidence of two witnesses or of three witnesses shall charge be established. Deuteronomy 19:15, everybody. What's up, everybody? Welcome back to another episode of Apologia Radio. This Is the gospel heard around the world. You can get more at apologiastudios.com Apolo G-I A studios.com I'm Jeff the Combinator. That's Luke the Bear right there.

[Senator Moreno]

What up?

[Jeff Durbin]

If you would head over to apologiastudios.com when you're done here, go and check out all the past episodes of Apologia Radio Shiologians, Provoked and Cultish. They're all there for your listening pleasure. Also, you can sign up for All Access. When you sign up for All Access, you partner with us in this ministry. The gospel, going around the entire world. People coming to Christ out of the cults, out of atheism, agnosticism, public debates, teaching, all that. Everything happening is, is, is happening because of our All Access partners. And when you're All Access, when you partner with us, you get access to far more content. Tons of stuff there for you guys with the Apology Academy, the full episodes of Collision, everything is there for you guys. It'll bless you. Don't forget if you haven't done so yet, I say this all the time, don't forget to do it. You're missing out big time. If you have not done it yet, go to apologiastudios.com Sign up for your completely for free Bonsen U account and you're going to get access to top tier theological education from one of the greatest in Christian history, Dr. Greg Bonson. His entire life's work, his library, the seminary lectures, the college classes, his teaching from the pulpit, the public debates, everything is there for you guys. It is truly top tier theological education and it is for free. But just so you know, also all the All Access partners with us make that possible for you because it's not really for free. We have to pay for it and it's free for you to use. But our All Access partners are making all that education possible for everybody. So thank you to our All Access partners. Thank you for being part of this ministry with us. So much is happening right now. We are revamping the studio, bringing new things to you guys, new tools. We want to help you to know what you believe, why you believe it, and be able to articulate that truth to the world. And so right now everything's underway. We're building a new set on the other side. Right now we have new tools getting ready and set for you guys. The app for the Apple is essentially done. We're just working out the kinks and some bugs. So that's coming for you guys very soon. Then the Android. So much is happening. If you want to help us right now with the process of bringing you a brand to Apologia Studios, equipping you in a much better way, adding new tools to everything, go to apologia studios.com give help us to get to our goal. And we are just so excited to roll all this stuff out for you guys. And we're actually doing some construction tomorrow as well on the new set for the new program. Lots more engagement, conflict. All that stuff is going to be there for you guys. So go there. ApologiaStudios.com give to help us to get to our goal. Please do. Thank you guys so much for being part of this ministry with us and making that possible. I wanted to announce before we start today, we're talking about Fauci, the fifth Amendment, guilt and the Bible. Where's the fifth Amendment come from? We're going to talk through what happened yesterday with Fauci, the scoundrel that he is, and his pleading, the fifth Amendment. Should we respect that? Is it right to do. Is there a biblical case for that? Where's that fifth Amendment come from? It just, just fall out of the sky? Did atheists give it to us agnostics, or did that come actually from the Bible? Is there a biblical tradition in history to that law? Should we respect it? Did Jesus appeal to it?

[Senator Moreno]

And.

[Jeff Durbin]

And so we're going to get into that. But before I do, I want to just announce everybody, we had an historic moment this year in the state of Illinois. It was the first bill of abolition, equal protection for all humans from the moment of fertilization in the state of Illinois. It was historic. We were able to get it in this year with Senator Neil Anderson, great man of God. Love that guy. And. But the problem was is it happened so fast, we didn't even have time to prepare for it. And the church just really was scrambling all over Illinois, working hard together, did a phenomenal job. But we needed more time to build the network of pastors and Christians and congregations to actually allow this law, this justice, to fall on the state of Illinois. And so we have that bill coming again with Senator Neil Anderson. And so next Tuesday, the. Is that the fourth or fifth? The fourth. I think it's the fourth. Tuesday, the fourth of August. Sorry, I got Chappelle on my mind right now. The fifth physiotherapist. I think it's the fourth. Sorry. We're going to be in. We're going to be in Winfield, Illinois. We're going to meet with Pastors Christians leaders all across the state of Illinois in Winfield, Illinois, Illinois, not far from Chicago. I'm going to put after the show is over today, I'm going to put a link underneath into the description here so you guys can click on that link. If you're in Illinois, please come out and meet with us. We need you there. 5:30 start time. We're going to get you dinner and then we're going to start and let you know what's going on. And I have good news. Senator Neil Anderson is joining us for this event. So if you're in Illinois, pastors leaders, Christians come and join us. But we do need you to sign up and so click the link below. Rsvp, let everybody know that this is going on because I want to tell you this. Please hear me on this and don't skip ahead of this. Make sure you guys listen to this. The legislators in the state of Illinois this year when I was out there professing Christians, pro life legislators were telling me that they did not believe that the church in Illinois wanted this bill of abolition. That's what their main thing against me was, where's the church saying that they want this bill? This is a dramatic move. This is a huge step, this is a bold move to abolition of abortion. And they said where's the church in Illinois? They don't want this. They're not calling me, they're not saying anything to me about this. It's just you, Jeff Durbin and abortion now and this small gathering of churches. They don't believe that you want this bill of abolition in Illinois. So if you're a Christian in Illinois, we need you to join us, be a part of our team. So we're working together to make sure that the legislators there know that you do want justice for the preborn, you do want to see it abolished. We need you there. So the fourth Winfield, Illinois description after the show today. The link is there. Rsvp I'm buying you dinner. Show up. Senator Neal Anderson is coming with us. And so that's what's up, that's what's coming. Welcome to the show today everybody. Big, big topic. I could not be happier that this happened yesterday and it gives us the opportunity to discuss this because you guys know if you've been watching this for any period of time, you know that we are hardcore pipe hitting, hundred proof theonomists. We believe that God's law has abiding validity. We believe that it's good. If you want to know our perspective, if you want to see if you want to see our perspective on the law of God summarized, I would say please go and read Psalm 119. Psalm 119. It'll take you some time.

[Luke the Bear]

It'll take a little bit of time.

[Jeff Durbin]

Longest chapter in the entire Bible. But that is our perspective on the law of God, okay? It is good. It endures forever. And those principles from God's law don't go away with the cross. The goodness of God's law is some. Well, Paul says it. But Paul says it best.

[Senator Josh Hawley]

Of course.

[Jeff Durbin]

Of course he does. In Romans chapter three, he says, do we then make void the law through faith? He just made an argument in Romans 3:28 that we are justified by faith apart from the works of the law. So the law will not save us, it will not justify us before God. But then Paul, right after he says it is faith alone, faith apart from the works of the law that justifies us. He then says, do we then make void the law through faith? And what does he say? No, actually, because we're saved because of this faith. We establish the law and so we love the law of God. The law of God is good. The law of God blesses the world. And you see in history this line from the Bible into nations. As the Gospel penetrates nations and people come to Jesus and the nation starts to reflect the heart of God, the mind of God, the law of God. You see that the Christian church would actually put the law of God into their statutes and their legislature to allow for justice and freedom and righteousness in a nation and this nation ourselves, this great experiment of America, the United States of America, this nation. We inherited this treasure from the Huguenots, from the Covenanters and from British common law. Basically it was the Bible that established these statutes and these laws and these amendments of freedom and justice. Now we know that they're hanging on by a thread in many ways, because if you have an unbelieving nation, they don't respect God's law or understand it. And so they'll just toss those things away. Why do we need these things? Why do we need amendments? Why do we need these rights where these come from which God. And so the law of God has been a blessing to the world since it was given. And, and so the fifth Amendment, where's that come from? Did it just drop out of the sky? Is it good? Is that from God's law? We want to argue, and you can look this up and look into yourself, research it, that the fifth Amendment, the right against self incrimination, is a biblical standard. And it's not just a biblical standard that you can just read in the text of here's the rule, but it's a biblical standard that Jesus himself appealed to in his trials. So we're going to talk about that. Okay? But Fauci, Fauci, Fauci, he, that scoundrel, he appealed to that fifth Amendment and he did it over a hundred times. Did you watch it? Did you get a chance to watch it?

[Luke the Bear]

I saw Howley, Rand and Moreno.

[Jeff Durbin]

Yes.

[Luke the Bear]

So I saw those three.

[Jeff Durbin]

Those were kind of the main.

[Luke the Bear]

The main were just. It was so refreshing.

[Jeff Durbin]

Yeah.

[Luke the Bear]

It's like, where were. I mean, I, I know Rand's been pretty consistent, but it's like, why weren't more of you guys acting like this six years ago?

[Jeff Durbin]

For real? For real. So here's the thing. Listen, we're gonna be a, It's a clip heavy episode today, by the way. Do all the things, if you would, let the world know about what these conversations, we believe they're valuable. We have these conversations in apology or radio. And the standard and test for all of us is, is, is, is this content that we're producing right now, we're investing in, is it something that will bless the church today and 100 years from now is, is the topic, are the principles or the things we're discussing something that would be relevant a hundred years from now and relevant to our lives today? And so that's what we do. And so if you would do all the things, the likes, the shares, the subscribes, if you haven't done that yet, click those, because YouTube likes when you do, and it makes sure that YouTube goes, oh, people want to see this. And they'll put it in the suggested videos. People will get into this conversation and realize this rich inheritance we have and in this country for from the word of God, from the Bible. So here yesterday, Fauci appealed to the fifth Amendment over a hundred times. And it's interesting too, because in this clip here, you're going to see Fauci talking in 2021 about hearings and speaking and giving answers. And so here we go. Oh, I didn't do that. Right, did I? Look at me. Okay, here we go.

[Anthony Fauci (portrayed in clips)]

The answer is, if there are oversight hearings, I absolutely will cooperate fully and testify before the Congress. Have asked. You may not know, but I've testified before the Congress a few hundred times. Okay. Over the last 40 years or so. So I have no trouble testifying. We can defend and explain and stand by everything that we've said. So I have nothing under the advice of my attorneys, I will invoke my right under the fifth amendment of the Constitution to refrain from answering your questions. Thank you.

[Jeff Durbin]

And he did that quite a bit.

[Senator Josh Hawley]

A lot.

[Jeff Durbin]

Over a hundred times. And it was, you know, you could see even you. You could even see if you watch a dude. I saw it come on. Like, I first woke up. I saw a thing. There was like, oh, he's live right now. So I, like, watched. I watched most of it, but you can see, like, it's obvious. Like, it would exasperate any of us. He started to get exasperated, exacerbated throughout it, because he just kept saying the same statement. Yeah. And sometimes they'd ask him, like, three, four questions in a row, like, quickly. And he'd have to keep saying and saying it. You could see him sort of go and then have to say it again.

[Luke the Bear]

I thought a couple times, he's like, was. Was that a question?

[Jeff Durbin]

Yeah. And they like, yeah, here. I got to go again. I got to go again. Yeah. And so, I mean, it was. It was over and over. And actually, I figured, let's play. Let's play Fouchy, you know, doing it a few times. And so we found this important clip of Fauci actually pleading the fifth. Sir, is it true you were a crack cocaine dealer for seven years? I plead the fifth.

[Anthony Fauci (portrayed in clips)]

Sir, will you tell us about the cartels you dealt with in your time as a crack cocaine dealer?

[Luke the Bear]

Um, no, but I can tell you that I plead the physios.

[Jeff Durbin]

Exactly how much money did you earn in your time as a crack cocaine dealer? There are. I said, there are so many amendments in the Constitution of the United States of America. I can only choose one. I can only choose one.

[Anthony Fauci (portrayed in clips)]

I. Please. The fifth.

[Jeff Durbin]

I see. The fifth.

[Senator Moreno]

Five.

[Jeff Durbin]

One, two, three, four. Fifth. Anything you say.

[Luke the Bear]

Fifth.

[Jeff Durbin]

Go ahead, ask me a question.

[Luke the Bear]

Fifth.

[Jeff Durbin]

I have a secret document that I think you need to say.

[Anthony Fauci (portrayed in clips)]

How are you all? Sir, good afternoon.

[Jeff Durbin]

I got your sentence reduced him. There you go. So much difference. No, it was basically that. That's not quite as entertaining as that, but it was. It was basically that. So there were.

[Luke the Bear]

There were.

[Jeff Durbin]

There were, you know, some remarkable moments here. I'm going to play some of Rand Paul. He's been the best at this, but there was a moment where, you know, he just kept pleading the fifth, and then his attorney comes out. One of his attorneys, he had a. He had a bunch of them, and he and Rand Paul. His attorney and Rand Paul got into a little bit of a scuffle, and his attorney was Cast out of the hearing. So here we go.

[Senator Rand Paul]

You're not recognized. You're not recognized. If you are unruly, you will be removed from the proceeding. You are not. You are not recognized. And you are not recognized, sir. Sir, you are not recognized. You are not recognized. Security,

[Jeff Durbin]

we'll hold off.

[Senator Rand Paul]

But you will respect these proceedings. You were told not to sit at the table. You insist on sitting at the table. And we told you you would not be recognized. You are not invited here for testimony. Sir, you are being disruptive. Would you behave this way in a courtroom? No, because the judge would put you in jail. I can't do that today, but I can have you escorted from the premises. So I would say, sir, sit quietly and don't say another word. I said sit quietly. You are not recognized. Another word and you're gone.

[Senator Josh Hawley]

So, Mr. Chairman, I'd like to hear

[Jeff Durbin]

what the attorney has to say.

[Senator Rand Paul]

He is not recognized by the committee or the chair. If he speaks again, he will be removed from the room. This testimony is from Anthony Fauci. This is not a game with his lawyers. He can advise. His lawyers can give him advice. He's got a half dozen here. They're all allowed to talk to him. All right, but the attorneys are not recognized. In fact, the attorney was told not to sit at the table, and he's not obeying that recommendation. There's a row behind you, sir. That's where you were told to sit, and you're not. And now you're disrupting the proceedings. And so, look, this is the way Anthony Fauci wants to be remembered for a lawyer not listening to the rules. That's the way you want to be remembered, and that's what you're going to do. You are not recognized, sir. Security, please remove him from the room.

[Luke the Bear]

So I feel like all of America was applauding with.

[Jeff Durbin]

Yeah, but I asked Gabe, and he pulled it together for me. I asked Gabe to pull me the clip of what happened when the attorney walked out of the room.

[Luke the Bear]

Oh, I haven't seen this.

[Jeff Durbin]

Yeah, yeah. So here, if you guys haven't got a chance to see this, we're going to do this clip going to commercial break after this one. But this is. I. I wanted to give the guy a chance to be heard. What was he up to? And so this is what happened when he walked out of the room. What were you trying to say in that room?

[Senator Josh Hawley]

What were you trying to say, sir, for the committee?

[Luke the Bear]

That was public.

[Jeff Durbin]

That was a public statement you were trying to make. Have you ever seen this happen in a congressional hearing.

[Anthony Fauci (portrayed in clips)]

He has a valid Fifth Amendment privilege

[Jeff Durbin]

and he has the right to assert it. That's what you trying to say.

[Anthony Fauci (portrayed in clips)]

That's what I was trying to tell the committee.

[Jeff Durbin]

That's all I was trying to tell the committee. Yeah, but he was already saying it was I'm invoking my Fifth Amendment privilege. And you were told to keep your mouth shut and stop being disruptive and you just kept on trying to say it. All you're, all you're going to do is say he has a right to say this. All right, so just before we go to the break, here's the issue that I consider the fifth Amendment privilege and, and that that right to against self incrimination, the right to remain silent, I consider that sacred because that standard comes from the word of God and the law of God and there's a whole history to it from the Jews understanding of what God's law and standards were to, you know, you have to have evidence and witnesses against somebody. There's nothing in God's law that that commands a person who is being accused to help their accusers. The point of, the point of two and three witnesses in God's law is that you have to have two or three independent lines of evidence of witness against a person. And if you don't have that, you can't even receive the charges against the person. A single witness should not suffice and you are not required to testify against yourself if you're truly guilty. The witnesses and the evidence ought to be able to prove that. That's the point of God's law is that you've got the evidence and witness to prove it. And there's no compulsion on the part of the accused to assist the accusers in any way. And Jesus demonstrates that so beautifully during his false trials where they're bringing false witnesses against Jesus. What does the text say that they couldn't even get their testimonies to match. And what is Jesus? What is Jesus doing? He's refusing to answer. He's refusing to help them. And I want you to consider this because it's beautiful testimony to Christ and his righteousness and his perfect obedience to the law and his perfect understanding of the law as the Messiah is that he refuses to help the accusers who are giving false testimony against him and their testimony is not matching. And so he refuses to assist them. The only time that Jesus answers in any of those with Pilate or before that, whenever he answers, he only answers when something is asked of him that is true. He does not assist his accusers. He stays silent to the point that it's frustrating to those who are trying to hold these trials and to challenge and accuse Jesus. They're frustrated by the fact that he's remaining silent. And so Jesus does appeal to the Fifth Amendment. Jesus does appeal to the right against self incrimination. So I consider the fifth Amendment sacred and it is God's law. And we're going to get more into it in terms of the things that were said to Fauci because he was appealing to the fifth Amendment. But here's the deal. You're going to see in a moment that there's actually a court ruling over a hundred years old that actually denies a person who has a pardon the, the right to against self incrimination. They, they are said by the Supreme Court. They must speak. Is that right? Is that good? I recognize that Fauci is a scoundrel and an evil man, no question at all. But what we're talking about here is the principle of the right against self incrimination. So lots to talk about today. Really excited about it. I believe this is gonna be a blessing to everybody. We're gonna play more clips here and let you guys get caught up with what happened yesterday. If you haven't seen it, I think it'll be really, really entertaining for you guys. So we're going to do a quick commercial break before we do do the, like, do the share, do the subscribe thing and go to apologiastudios.com make sure you guys sign up for All Access. Partner with us in ministry. We'll be right back after this short break. This episode is brought to you by ion [e-mail] Go and check out the health benefits, the wellness benefits and longevity benefits of NAD treatments. NAD is nicknamed the fountain of Youth for a reason. You have an abundance of this in your system when you're young. As you get older, it drops off. And now we found a way to get NAD into our systems. They do it through IV treatments, but they're very expensive and it's also extremely painful and difficult. However, Ion Layer found a way to get a high dose of NAD into your system through a medical patch you wear on your arm. You wear it for about 14 hours. You get a high dose of NAD treatment into your system and no pain at all. And it is a fraction of the cost of what you would pay through for an IV treatment. In the coupon code, type in Apologia in all caps. They're going to hook you up with a Great discount for an already amazingly cost effective product. And they bless Apologia Studios and help us to stay on the air and do all these programs with you. Don't forget. Also Ion Layer has added a glutathione patch as well. Glutathione, the master antioxidant. Go check out the health benefits of glutathione. I'm doing this stuff anyways. It's blessed my life in tremendous ways. And so if you want to focus on your health, wellness and longevity, nothing better in my mind than ionlayer.com for your NAD and Glutathione treatments. Ionlayer.com don't forget to put apologia in all caps in the coupon code. Welcome back everyone to Apologia radio. Go to apologiastudios.com to get more. Sign up for all access over there. Guys, join us in this ministry as we now bring the gospel to more and more people every single month all around the world. We're talking today about the fifth Amendment, the right against self incrimination, the right to remain silence. My argument is, is that that's a biblical standard, comes from God's law. It's historic. It's come to us through history. I believe that we should treat that as a sacred right, protect it with all that we've got. It does not come from atheism or agnosticism. It comes from biblical law, biblical standards, biblical tradition. And so here's the situation. All right. So Biden gives Fauci a pardon.

[Luke the Bear]

Yeah.

[Jeff Durbin]

From 2014 to 2024, 2025, one of those two. And it's just this blanket pardon. Right. So, so Fauci has this pardon for years. I mean, it's just crazy, crazy for years. And so the challenge is, is that now the evidence is out, the witness is out, and he is caught dead to rights. Fauci is caught dead to rights. It's his own words, his own emails, his own testimony, other. Other witness testimony. He is dead to rights. He's caught. Here's the problem. The man has a presidential pardon from Biden. What is that? What does that presidential pardon cover? Well, it covers particular things that are like federal. Okay, so that president presidential pardon is a federal pardon. So, for example, if Biden. Sorry, sorry. If Foushee was in the state of Maryland and he commits a theft, a horrible crime, like a rape or a murder or anybody does this, who has a federal pardon, it doesn't count for that because that's a governor issue. The governor has to issue. The governor has to Issue a pardon for those kind of crimes at the state level. So they wouldn't cover Fauci at that level. So, you know, people saying things like, you know, if he was so what if he stole something in 2015, he's good to go. No, that's a state thing. That's. That has to be the governor that offers those pardons. So this is federal. So Biden's pardon is federal from 2014 onward. So here's the issue. He's got that pardon, but now he's caught dead to rights with the evidence. And so now they're trying to bring the evidence. And so what he's invoking is his privilege, his. His right, his right against self incrimination. And you're going to hear howley here in a moment address that issue. Does the. The right against self incrimination end if you've had a pardon? Okay, because here's the deal. What Foushee is thinking is this. I may have a pardon for past stuff, but they, if I testify here and I perjure myself in some way, I purge myself. I. I can be prosecuted for current stuff. And so the reason he. The reasoning behind him saying I'm not saying anything is because he may have a pardon for the past, but if they get him on doing something right now in the hearing, that pardon doesn't count because it's 2026, baby. And so what you do today isn't under federal pardon. And so that's why he's saying, I'm not incriminating myself. I'm not going to say anything, whatever. But I mean, he's caught dead to rights. The witness is all there and the evidence is there. But should we respect the fact that he has the right against self incri. So here's how. And I'm going to address some of the things he says here. By the way, I want to say this about Holly. Man, I love this guy. Yeah, I gotta say this. I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna say something in a moment here, right. I'm gonna disagree with something here that Holly says, but I don't want that to come across in any way that I don't love and respect and admire this man. I mean, I literally was just watching him speaking at a church last night, and, man, dude.

[Luke the Bear]

Oh, really?

[Jeff Durbin]

It was straight, like, post mill talk.

[Luke the Bear]

Really?

[Jeff Durbin]

Oh, my gosh, yes. It was huge.

[Luke the Bear]

Where's he from?

[Jeff Durbin]

I'm not. That looks like Jared Longshore, but man, do I love the dude. Man. Holly, if you watch apology at Radio, I love you, seriously. So thankful for you. But I am gonna have a disagreement with one of the things he says here.

[Senator Josh Hawley]

All right, here we go, Chairman. Well, nothing says honesty like taking the Fifth, huh, Doc? Let's try something.

[Jeff Durbin]

Oh, that. Okay, that, that. All right, now please hear me on this. I think this is so. Dude, this is. I mean, this got me going yesterday with the guys. As we were talking about today's episode. Here's the situation. We can't. We can't get to a place where if somebody pleads the fifth and they uphold their writing and self incrimination, and they're like, I'm not saying anything, I'm not helping you. We can't create a mindset with the people that if a person remains silent and says, I'm not saying anything, I'm not helping you, that that means that they're automatically guilty.

[Luke the Bear]

Yeah.

[Jeff Durbin]

Which is kind of what Holly said here, right? Like, nothing says honesty like, you know, staying silent. Watch this. Ready? Now do Jesus. Okay. I think about it like, if we're gonna, if we're gonna create the mindset that if somebody doesn't answer up who's being accused, that they're automatically guilty or they must be guilty. They then, now let's do Jesus. When Jesus stayed silent when he was being accused, was. Was that an admission of guilt on Jesus part? No. And so that's the only criticism I have here with Holly, I think so that I can remember is I, I don't like that. And we have to be really, really opposed to that. We need to respect the person who sits there and says, this is a sacred right. You're my accusers. I'm not going to help you. We need to treat every person as innocent and say, hey, they're upholding their rights under God's law, is they don't have to help their accusers. Now, I'm not saying that Fauci isn't guilty. I think the man's a scoundrel. I think he's a disgraceful, despicable human being. I think he's guilty, and I want justice to fall flat on his head. But we're talking about a principle here, and this principle is sacred as part of God's law. In all of Christian history, this is. Christians, like really fought, bled, and died for this stuff. We cannot give people the mindset that if someone's sitting on the stand being accused and they don't speak up for themselves and don't answer questions, that that automatically means there must be some guilt. You're probably afraid to say anything. No, like I said, I think it's the most potent part of this argument. Now do Jesus, because he stayed silent with his accusers and he was innocent, he's righteous and the perfect law keeper and he did not help them. He invoked his fifth Amendment privilege, his right to remain silent, his right against self incrimination. He wasn't going to help his accusers. So this is one thing I want to say. We can't do this. We cannot do it. I'm so, I'm so fiercely committed to this. We cannot get in a place where we are as a nation saying if a person exercises that right, they must be guilty. We can't do that. Now I recognize, and I want you to speak to this Luke, that standards in God's law, some of these standards for justice, like against self incrimination and the witnesses and testimony, sometimes that means on this side of heaven that people will get away with murder literally because there's standards in place that are laws and just standards to protect the innocent. And sometimes the guilty will appeal to and use those laws to their own advantage. Oh, there's not enough evidence, there's not enough witnesses. All circumstantial evidence. You don't have independent lines, all that stuff. And you're like, shoot. But we know this guy did it. We just, we can't get all the proof. Like we need all that proof to really be on a reasonable doubt, make sure that he's, he's, he's shown to be guilty. And sometimes people will literally get away with murder and other crimes on this side of heaven. But here's the Christian worldview. It doesn't mean that they always will. It means that there's going to be a day of judgment where that's ultimately proven and, and it's upheld against them. But we can't cast aside God's standards of justice. We can't do that because someone like Fauci is getting away, he's getting away with it. Like we need to find some way to just, you know, abandon justice, abandon principle. Because we know the guy's guilty, right? So like he needs to speak up, up. It's like, well wait, we, we can't live like that because what you don't want and what I don't want is someone to force us to self incriminate, which is a violation of God's law and, and just reverse God's standards. We can't do that. That's not just. And so I recognize it's a problem that's a scoundrel. Like, Fauci is just, you know, appealing to this. This Fifth amendment and the right against self incrimination. But we want that for everybody, including Jesus.

[Senator Moreno]

Yeah.

[Luke the Bear]

And like, I'm seeing a bunch of stuff in the chat here. Just. Just stick with us. We definitely believe Fauci's guilty. We're not. Jeff's not saying he's not guilty.

[Jeff Durbin]

Oh, yeah.

[Luke the Bear]

He's just saying we can't. You can't just say someone's guilty because they plead the fifth. And this was. And this is where I was confused, because I think we're gonna get that here in a second because someone said that because he's been pardoned, then he forfeits the ability to plead the fifth. And that's the point that Holly makes. And that's where I was.

[Jeff Durbin]

Yeah.

[Luke the Bear]

Confused on how that works. But we're going to get that.

[Jeff Durbin]

We're getting that, right? Actually, it's. It's right here.

[Luke the Bear]

Yeah.

[Jeff Durbin]

Here we go.

[Senator Josh Hawley]

What day of the week is it today?

[Anthony Fauci (portrayed in clips)]

On the advice of counsel, I respectfully declined to answer based upon my rights under the fifth amendment to the Constitution.

[Senator Josh Hawley]

What color tie are you wearing?

[Anthony Fauci (portrayed in clips)]

On the advice of counsel, I respectfully declined to answer based upon my rights under the fifth amendment to the Constitution.

[Senator Josh Hawley]

What color is the carpet in front of you?

[Anthony Fauci (portrayed in clips)]

On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline to answer based upon my rights under the fifth amendment to the constitution.

[Senator Josh Hawley]

Let's just get one thing straight. You don't have any rights under the fifth amendment because you've been pardoned. As you very well know, as the supreme court has been clear for a century and more. Brown versus Walker, 1896. When he has been pardoned, he may not stand upon his privilege. You know that your lawyer is sitting behind you now, shifting nervously in their chairs. They know it. This isn't about the Constitution. This isn't about the law. This is about contempt. Contempt for this body and contempt for the American people.

[Jeff Durbin]

But I think now, I do agree with that, that what he is doing is showing contempt for the American people and for the body. I. I do. I do agree with that. I think Fauci is. Is provably guilty. The witness and evidence. And evidence against him is overwhelming. The man is a scoundrel. The man is disgraceful. He is guilty, guilty, guilty. All the evidence says what it says. There's no way for the man to get out of it. So I'm not making the point that the man is innocent. He is guilty. I despise the man and what he did. But what we're talking about here is the principle. The principle and the right against self incrimination. And so what, of course, what Foushee knows is he's got a federal pardon for the past stuff, but his lawyers are advising him. You say anything today, you could be found guilty of perjury. Something can come up today where you actually incriminate yourself today and they can charge you with something for today. So keep silent is essentially probably the advice. Now Howley is saying that there's a Supreme Court ruling that says that if you've been pardoned, you may not stand on your privilege because you've already been pardoned. And so the question that has to be asked here, and this is attention, Right? It's attention. The question that has to be asked here is should we ever be able to throw away God's standard of against self incrimination? Right. Are there circumstances where we can throw that principle away? Like, okay, what if, what if in Rome that's what they did to Jesus, all right? Because Jesus is truly innocent. Fauci is guilty. Jesus is innocent. And Jesus appeals to the right against self incrimination and doesn't help his accusers, period. But what if Rome said Jesus, we've already had a ruling of the Senate here in Rome. We've had a ruling, and that is that you may not stand in your privilege. You must speak. We are going to compel you to testify against yourself. Would that have been right in Jesus case? If you say no, then you're talking about something that's an abiding principle, right? It's something that stands above all of us. That's a principle you can't violate. And I think we'd all say that doesn't matter. If the Senate has said that and said Jesus, we're going to compel you to speak. It doesn't make a difference because the principle is a God ordained principle and it is a law of God principle. That's what Jesus is upholding. So I'm, I'm of the opinion, and you guys are free to disagree, but I'm of the opinion that this writing and self incrimination is biblical and it is sacred. And it doesn't matter if the Supreme Court rules that. No, we're revoking your, your, your right against self incrimination. I don't think that that's allowable by God. I just don't, I don't agree with that. I, I think that these rights don't get revoked and God doesn't abandon his standards here. And so I, I don't agree with that. I think Lex Rex, I think the law is king, and the law is king over kings. The law is king over Supreme Court. God's law is the ultimate abiding standard. And it doesn't matter what gathering of men in black robes say, if what they say is contradicting the law of God, which is abiding and eternal. And so that's, you know, I'm giving you my opinion on it. I think Fauci's a scoundrel, but the principle I think we need to fight for with all of our might.

[Luke the Bear]

How did we get his diary to begin with? Do you know the answer to that?

[Jeff Durbin]

I don't know the answer to that.

[Luke the Bear]

It just like popped up.

[Anthony Fauci (portrayed in clips)]

I shared that in the chat, actually.

[Jeff Durbin]

Oh, did you do it? So explain Gabe, because I missed that.

[Anthony Fauci (portrayed in clips)]

Well, according to Glenn Beck, it's based on he.

[Jeff Durbin]

This is stuff he wrote on his government provided laptop during government time. So they have access to all these notes he was writing for a book, is my understanding. Okay, Right on. Okay, here's more from Holly.

[Senator Josh Hawley]

Why you're doing it. It's because you don't want to answer questions. It's because you did all kinds of terrible things. It's because during the pandemic, you got rich, didn't you? You got rich while people were dying. Hundreds of thousands of Americans, over a million in the end. And you were getting rich. And not only were you doing that, you were using federal employees with taxpayer money to apply for and solicit cash prizes for you personally. Cash prizes totaling over a million dollars. You did all of that during the pandemic, didn't you? That's a question.

[Anthony Fauci (portrayed in clips)]

On the advice of counsel, I respectfully declined to answer based upon my rights under the fifth amendment to the Constitution.

[Senator Josh Hawley]

You remember Greg Foulkers? Who was that?

[Anthony Fauci (portrayed in clips)]

On the advice of counsel, I respectfully declined to answer based upon my rights under the fifth amendment to the Constitution.

[Senator Josh Hawley]

Your chief of staff is the answer. Do you remember Patricia Conrad? Who was that?

[Anthony Fauci (portrayed in clips)]

On the advice of counsel, I respectfully declined to answer based upon my rights under the fifth amendment to the Constitution.

[Senator Josh Hawley]

She was your personal assistant. And what were these individuals doing in the depth of the pandemic in November of 2020, when millions of Americans were suffering from COVID What were they doing? I tell you what they're doing. Folkers was on your behalf soliciting and gathering information for a cash award. Let's look at it. We've got his email right here, right over My shoulder. Folker says, I'm working on this nomination for the Dan David Award for Fauci. We need to beef up the COVID part. Do you have language in the can that you could share that delineates how we responded in new ways to Covid? He sends this to multiple federal employees. What was the Dan David award? Do you remember, Doc,

[Anthony Fauci (portrayed in clips)]

on the advice of counsel, I respectfully declined to answer based upon my rights under the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution.

[Senator Josh Hawley]

It was a $900,000 cash award. $900,000 cash award. And he got it because he used federal employees to get it. And this wasn't the only award, was it, Dr. Fauci? In fact, you applied for and received at least eight other federal cash prizes on federal time using federal employees and federal resources. Here they are, over my shoulder. Besides the Dan David Award, you've got the Partnership for Public Service. You've got the Adelson Prize, you've got the Smithsonian Award, you've got the National Academy of Medicines Award, you got the CDC Foundation. In fact, you turn your staff into a full time application machine. You actually wrote to people and said, do you think maybe I'd qualify? And you got cash for all of this. And it wasn't just one or two employees, was it? In fact, you used eight separate federal employees on federal time using federal resources to solicit cash awards. Isn't that true?

[Anthony Fauci (portrayed in clips)]

On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline to answer based upon my rights under the fifth amendment to the Constitution.

[Senator Josh Hawley]

Here they are right over my shoulder. Here's all of them. The people that you use federal employees so that you could go and get cash money. And the most hilarious part is that you weren't content to even dragoon them into applying for all of these cash awards. You then have them go out to the ethics agencies and ethics watchdogs and demand that you be able to get the money. That's right. We've got it in your emails. Your staff and employees on federal time using federal resources, being paid with federal dollars are soliciting cash for you. And then they're turning around and saying to the agency, we don't want just an answer. We want to get to yes, because Fauci wants the money.

[Luke the Bear]

Those are what you call weighted questions.

[Jeff Durbin]

This is the tip of the iceberg, too. Hey, guys, in the chat, Luke's. Luke's watching live here. So you'll be able to answer the one part I missed and I didn't get a chance to pull it up here. It might be it went for I think. I think it's in one of these here. We might get to it.

[Anthony Fauci (portrayed in clips)]

Do you.

[Jeff Durbin]

Does anybody know this? Did you see the part where one of the. One of the senators tells people in the back to stand up? Were you affected here? Were you affected here? So they all stand up in the back and he tells Fauci to turn around and look at them. Now, when I was watching, I didn't. Fauci was just staring straight ahead. He wouldn't turn around. Does anybody know if he actually finally turned around? I'm curious about that, because I. I was in middle of doing something, so I missed. I missed if Fauci ever actually turned around to look at some of the victims of. Of what he had done. I'm curious. I wonder. I wonder if I'm in the. In the feed knows whether or not he turned around, because that was a. That was a powerful moment. Okay, we're gonna do a break here in just a minute, but a little bit more here from Senator Howley. My favorite.

[Senator Josh Hawley]

He wants it. We want to get to yes. And yes takes time. This is your chief of staff again using federal email to pressure the agency's own ethics people so that you could get money so that you could get rich. And it violated the law, didn't it, Dr. Fauci? Didn't. Violated the law. Didn't is a question you can answer. Go ahead.

[Anthony Fauci (portrayed in clips)]

On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline to answer based upon my rights under the Fifth amendment to the Constitution.

[Senator Josh Hawley]

Federal law, as you very well know, prohibits the solicit cash awards or other personal benefits for federal employees. And it certainly prohibits using your own employees to do this. 5 CFR section 2635, 205B. It says it right there in black and white. You cannot use federal resources, federal dollars, federal employees, federal offices, federal email, federal time to solicit cash awards. And you did all of it. And the worst part is thousands of people were dying while you were doing it. You were supposed to be the nation's doctor, and you're playing one on tv, but this is what you were doing with your time. Isn't that true?

[Anthony Fauci (portrayed in clips)]

On the advice of counsel, I respectfully declined to answer based upon my rights under the Fifth amendment to the Constitution.

[Senator Josh Hawley]

Yeah, yeah,

[Jeff Durbin]

that was. That was quite the grilling and powerful, powerful evidence against him. Again, caught dead to rights in a number of ways. All right, guys, so do all the things. Likes and shares and subscribes. We're gonna come right back. Play more. I told you, it's a clip. Happy clip. Heavy episode today. Clip Happy we're gonna get to the next portion with with two more senators Rand Paul and and another and it's explosive. So stay with us and we'll be right back.

[Greg Bonson]

Hey Bonds and you live is finally here. Join me on June 29th for our very first live se exclusively to all access members at Apologia Studios. As you work through the incredible lectures of Dr. Greg Bonson, you're bound to have questions about apologetics, theology, philosophy and the Christian faith. That's exactly what Bonson U Live is for. Once a month I'll be hosting an interactive live stream where you can engage directly with me, ask your questions and dive deeper into the topics that you're studying. Whether you're new to presuppositional apologetics or looking to sharpen your understanding of the Christian worldview, you. This is your opportunity to learn, to interact and to grow alongside a community of like minded believers. So join me on June 29th for our first Bonson U Live exclusively at

[Luke the Bear]

apologiastudios.com this video is brought to you by Amtech Blades. We are very excited to be partnering with amtech. Bill Rapier, long time Navy seal, dev group operator, amazing brother and friend. Looking for a battle ax to carry on your person to chop some wood. They've got you covered. Looking for a blade to carry on you every day. Also got you covered. Look at this. I gotta check my mail. What do we got going on here? Oh, look how sharp that is. What is this? Oh, 5% off. You can go to amtechblades.com, put apology in the coupon code, get 5% off your order and he will match that and give 5% to end abortion now again, amtechblades.com them we're grateful for them. Check them out.

[Jeff Durbin]

Welcome back everybody. Talking about Anthony Fauci and the hearing and the fifth amendment and the right against self incrimination. And so we are now going to play a little bit from Senator Moreno. By the way, this is the section so I'm gonna get to see it right now too. I just, I can see it on the video here where he asked people to stand up if they were affected by what Fauci was doing and then he asks him to turn around. So let me make sure I get to the right part here, everybody.

[Senator Moreno]

So what you think today is that somehow you're. Let me just pull here in the audience.

[Dominion Wealth Representative]

There you go.

[Jeff Durbin]

Yeah, okay.

[Luke the Bear]

Awesome language coming up too.

[Jeff Durbin]

Oh yeah, I think it's right after this. Let me see.

[Senator Moreno]

During the time of the COVID pandemic. You were called a racist for calling the virus a Wuhan virus or the China virus. If you thought the six foot rule was total crap, if you thought the vaccine wasn't something that you should take, if you thought it was outrageous the way the mask policy was rolled out, if you were fired from your job for not taking that vaccine, including members of the military, if you thought closing schools was catastrophically stupid and that you thought that during these times, saying these things made you somehow a lesser human being. Doctor Frederick. You just turn around and look at the people behind you.

[Jeff Durbin]

Not turning. Not turning.

[Senator Moreno]

You're not willing to do that.

[Jeff Durbin]

Not turning.

[Senator Moreno]

That's not a question. It's not a question to your lawyers. Not a question. It's a request.

[Jeff Durbin]

He's. He's talking to his lawyer.

[Senator Moreno]

All you have to do is look up from your lawyers and look at the people who were absolutely shamed for saying what we know now to be the truth. You can't even look at him.

[Jeff Durbin]

Oh, come on. Is he gonna look at him?

[Senator Moreno]

That's a. That's a question. Are you able to look at them? You can sit down. The audience.

[Jeff Durbin]

No, he didn't. So he just went and talked to his lawyer. He wouldn't even turn around. Look at him. What?

[Senator Moreno]

There was a mom in Ohio.

[Jeff Durbin]

Here's. Here's the thing. Here's the thing. Look, I think. I think all of us, we get, you know, short term memory loss and we forget just how bad this situation was. Do you remember?

[Luke the Bear]

Oh, I remember, dude.

[Jeff Durbin]

So bad. We had to pack up and essentially leave our building and, like, last minute, find another church in town that would allow us to hold worship services and take and. And take the table.

[Luke the Bear]

One other church?

[Jeff Durbin]

Yeah, one other church. Praise God for them. But, man, was it far away. Man, was a far away.

[Luke the Bear]

Dr. White liked it.

[Jeff Durbin]

He loved it. It was near him. So we had to move from the east valley all the way to technically. Was. Was that Glendale? Is Glendale.

[Luke the Bear]

It was North Phoenix.

[Jeff Durbin]

Was it?

[Luke the Bear]

Yeah.

[Jeff Durbin]

Okay.

[Luke the Bear]

I think so.

[Jeff Durbin]

Yeah. It was way out there. I mean, it was a drive for so many of our people. And so we couldn't meet at our church because of stuff that was going on in the church we were at was like, no, we're not allowing services. We're like, all right, so like, last minute, we find this church. They let us meet there for how there? For

[Luke the Bear]

months, Three months, something like that.

[Jeff Durbin]

It felt like forever.

[Luke the Bear]

It was a month to three months somewhere in there.

[Jeff Durbin]

Okay.

[Luke the Bear]

Because it was like April and then I think we were back in May or June.

[Jeff Durbin]

Okay. So. So we had to, you know, pack up and get everything and. And go to this other church building so we could still meet and. Oh, man. I mean, like, not able to go out places. They had. There was a curfew at one point. Businesses were affected. And here's. Look, here's the situation. This man's nonsense and the things that he advocated for really genuinely harm people. Like, really genuinely harm people. And, you know, for example, one of the things that was just heartbreaking to us is we have a passion and a heart for the island of Kauai and the people of Kauai. And so at the time, we had a church plant there. And. And so we went out and. And guys, I got to tell you this because it'll. It'll never leave my memory how bad it was. The island of Kauai was. And one of. One of the places under democratic rule where they were really imposing Fauci's nonsense and exacerbating the whole situation. So we go out to Kauai and we realize that the island is being decimated by this. It is hard enough to live in Kauai as it is. I mean, it is so expensive. You've got multiple families living in a single home, and those people having like two and three jobs just to pay the rent or the mortgage on the house. I mean, it is. People are already struggling and suffering in the island of Kauai, across all islands. But Kauai, it was bad. And. And this nonsense over Covid destroyed that island. The businesses on that island shut down. There are business owners that we know, we knew and had relationships with, and they. They weren't able to survive. So we went to the island and we. We just. We. We were like, what can we do to bless these people and help these people? And so we bought a ton of food and we just. We got these. We made these food bags for families, and we set up on one of the main roads on the island of Kauai, where everybody passes by and we just prayed for people, gave them the gospel and then gave them food. And I. I'm serious. I was so moved by what God did there because there were families that pulled up to us, and they were just in tears and saying that if they did not get this food, they did not know if they were going to be able to feed their family over the next few days. They were literally saying, we're going to start starve. Because their businesses weren't open. They couldn't go to work and. Or their businesses were now already shuttered and. And they were starving. One guy owned a popular restaurant on one of the main strips in Kapa', A. And he was, he was going to his, his, his work and he couldn't even eat any of the food that he was. That he had to sell because he was already so broke as a business. And so he was like literally making food when and where he could, but not able to eat it. And he was starving. And so like, when we were giving him food bags, he was like, you literally are helping my family to survive right now. But that's the kind of people, that's the kind of stuff that happened. We have short term memory loss where we forget just how bad it was. And a lot of that had to do with the nonsense propagated by Fauci and others like him. He decimated this economy. He decimated families and businesses and over things that he knew were not true. Yeah, he's got one thing being said in emails and another thing he's saying before the public. And you can see he's writing in emails one thing and then going before the American people and saying something completely different. And he was, he was lying to the American people. He was covering for himself. And what ultimately were his motivations? A lot of it seems to push towards.

[Luke the Bear]

There seems to be some evidence.

[Jeff Durbin]

Some. Some money. Some money. And so, you know, this is serious. I mean, how many people. We started a whole organization, Stand with warriors, to help fight court battles and fight for the rights of military members from Navy Seals to Air Force to Marines. Three letter agencies, three letter agencies, dea, FBI, all that. We created an organization so that they could have attorneys to fight their battles for them because they didn't want to take the jab. And I don't know if you know this, but during the whole time that this was happening, we had to be so careful about mentioning certain words. Yeah, I don't know if you remember, but like, we would. We wouldn't say the word because they were literally shutting down the government. Biden's administration was working together with social media platforms like Facebook, YouTube, Twitter, all that stuff was working together with them, linking together with them to shut down the platforms of anybody who was mentioning questions about the jab. Jab wanted to see the data, just wanted to work through the evidence. If you mentioned it, boom, they killed your platform, just annihilated you. And, you know, no real answer. Just, you're dead. I'm going to take away your livelihood. I'm going to take away your platform because you mentioned the jab. So I did a. A message. When this is all going on on a Sunday, we did a message on what does God's law say about the jab? How do we approach the issue of the jab? For. But. But I. I realized as I'm preparing the sermon, because I want to go to the scriptures and give the principles, I realized I can't say vaccine. I can't say jab. I. If I say Covid, it's going to send off, you know, alarm bells. And so what I did is I did my sermon. Do you remember what I called it?

[Luke the Bear]

Don't take the cookie.

[Jeff Durbin]

Don't take the cookie. Joe's Cookies. I called it Joe's Cookies. So the whole sermon, it went viral because everybody wanted to see, like, is, does the Bible respond to this? It is answer some of this stuff.

[Luke the Bear]

Stuff.

[Jeff Durbin]

And in fact, it does in principles throughout scripture. But I needed to do it as a pastor for our church and for others, but I had to be so careful. And it was like a serious risk. We're going to kill our platform. We're going to kill our ministry, but we have to be faithful, and we have to speak to this. So how do I do it? So I was like, well, I'll call it something different. I'll never even mention Covid. I won't mention the jab. I won't mention vaccines, because they'll kill our. They'll kill our platform. We won't be able to speak anymore on anything. And so I just called it Joe's Cookies. And. And I didn't refer to Covid and anything to try to not set off the alarm bells. And it. During the peak of that nonsense, that video went viral. And yet, look what we had to do. We couldn't even speak about it. And it was because of the administration and people like Fauci that fed into this nonsense. I can't tell you how much I suffered that year. I have bad allergies, and it lends itself towards. When it's really bad, towards asthma and breathing problems. And I can't tell you how much I suffered having to wear that stupid mask, that stupid irrelevant mask on an airplane for hours at a time. And I remember I got yelled at one time by this. This flight attendant because I simply. At one point, I was so hot and I was having such a hard time breathing. I simply pulled it down for a second just to catch my breath. And just that moment, this flight attendant happened to see me doing it at just that moment and came right over taking my head off because I simply move the mask down so I can catch my breath, man. We suffered. And he knew. Fauci knew that the masks were irrelevant. The data was against it. It wasn't helpful. He was making people suffer. Children suffer, the elderly suffer. There are people like Dr. James White, who has some pretty serious and significant issues with his heart. And so he was like, I can't fly. I can't go anywhere because I can't wear that mask for hours. It'll literally kill me. And they knew, they knew that it was ineffective. Fauci says it in his emails that it was ineffective. It wasn't going to do anything. And he turned right around and go into the. Right before the American people and lie through his stinking teeth about the masks. And we all saw the videos, remember the videos where you would see like they're gonna do like a news conference and you would see like they didn't realize they were like on camera already. Somebody who like was just had their mask off and then as they were going up to the podium, then they put it on. It's all. It was all a show.

[Luke the Bear]

It was all show.

[Jeff Durbin]

Yeah, it was all a show. So destructive.

[Luke the Bear]

Yep. Yeah, I remember those days well.

[Anthony Fauci (portrayed in clips)]

Yeah.

[Jeff Durbin]

Painful, painful, painful moments. Okay, so I'm gonna get to this. This is the. This is Rand Paul, his closing statement. I think we're gonna probably close out the show today with my man, my man, my man, Senator Rand Paul, son of Ron Paul. And he's been the best and can. Most consistent with challenging Fauci and his nonsense over this whole. The whole course of things today will

[Senator Rand Paul]

be the capstone to Anthony Fauci's 40 years of abuse of power at NIH. In the end must imagine Fauci believes he got away with it. But still, late at night, even the guilty must become anxious, rerunning the scenarios through his mind, wondering, latching on to lingering doubts and worrying. Did his actions lead to the largest man made plague in human history? Are the millions dead the result of his experiments or experiments that he approved that increase the pathogenicity of deadly viruses? History will judge. But the facts as we now know them paint a sordid tale of dishonesty, misjudgment and ultimately the hubris the likes of which the world has rarely seen. If everyone will remain seated for a few minutes, we're going to let Dr. Fauci exit. Thank you.

[Jeff Durbin]

So here's the thing. The question to be asked, what we've been trying to ask in this episode is very simply, is the right against self incrimination sacred? Is it something that God wants us to uphold? Is it a standard that we need to respect regardless of the guilt of the person? And my point I made at the beginning was simply this, that Jesus upheld this right against self incrimination during his own trial. False witnesses were brought against him. He did not help them. He did not assist them. Nobody should. And I think one of the highlight moments, if you just came to the broadcast just now, one of the highlight moments is of today's episode is when Hawley basically was challenging Fauci on his silence by saying that he was suggesting that he's obviously guilty because he won't speak. And what I was saying is that we need to resist that urge. Resist the urge to assume somebody's guilt because they will not help their accusers. Now I know with the evidence it is overwhelming. Fauci is caught dead to rights. The man is guilty. I get it. I believe that. I, as I've said, he's a scoundrel of the highest caliber. But at the same time, it is my position that this right against self incrimination is sacred and we need to protect and preserve it at all costs. And I don't want us to get to a place where we assume anybody's guilt because they invoke the right against self incrimination. And my, my. The, the pinnacle of the argument here is Jesus. He was fully innocent. He is the righteous and blameless one and he did not help his accusers. The only thing that Jesus did, the only thing that he would speak to, the only time Jesus opened up and responded was when something true was being said about him. That's when he's responding. He's not responding to the, to the false accusations. And so that's my position. Luke, you want to have some final words here?

[Luke the Bear]

Yeah, I mean, hopefully, hopefully I've been seeing a lot of chatter about trying to get him on some state issues, you know. Yeah, hopefully he gets what he deserves. You know, and I'll say this very carefully. My concern here is that he will disappear before that ever happens. You know, and there's a number of ways that could happen. But that's my concern is, you know, but hopefully, you know, obviously there's a lot of people that are very upset. And you saw just a few of our are senators that are very upset. And you know, I'm hoping and praying that we see justice on this side of heaven.

[Jeff Durbin]

Yeah, and that's a good point, Luke. I want to Maybe finish kind of respond to that too oftentimes I think we so want justice on this side of heaven that we're willing to pervert.

[Luke the Bear]

Right, right.

[Jeff Durbin]

God's standards of justice because we so want to see it now. I recognize that I struggle. I do, I struggle. And this is just all of us in our human capacity. Like this is just the weakness of us as creatures. Of course I struggle, and I know you do too. With people that are truly guilty on this side of heaven, they get away with things. And you want justice now. But I think sanctification for all of us is trusting in that day of judgment and the ultimate judge who will do a better job at justice than any of us will on this side of heaven. It's a really hard thing. I confess it. I struggle with it. Today. God says, vengeance is mine, says the Lord, I will repay. You know, that's. That's a struggle. Is, is being able to trust that. And yeah, you know, not everyone wants vengeance and even for. Right. Rightly so you want it, but we can't. However, we can't abandon God's standards of justice because we want the justice in the now. The Christian worldview says that there will be justice. Ultimately God will be the judge. He will not let Fauci get away with this. But I guess the point I'm making, I hope it's clear, is that we so want Fauci to receive justice on this side of heaven, that we're kind of mocking God's standards of, of. Of the right against self incrimination because we so desperately want him to get nailed today, which I get. I want him to get nailed too. But we can't abandon justice so that he gets nailed today. Yeah, and that's my point, is that we have to trust in a God who will bring the justice. So everybody, if you haven't done so yet, go to apologiesstudios.com not only sign up for all access and bonds and you and all that stuff, but go to the store, get yourself some stuff. We have tracks people use all over the world to bring the gospel to the Mormons, the basic biblical gospel out on the street stuff for the abortion mills. And by the way, if your church has not signed up with end abortion now yet, go to endabortionnow.com Sign up for free training, get free resources to go and save the lives of babies at the abortion mills. Over a thousand churches, mostly in the US but also globally, are out saving lives at the abortion mills and you can get all the free training, all the free equipping. We want nothing from your church. We just want to help you to do it. Tens of thousands of babies have been saved, saved, literally, literally lives saved as a result of all these churches doing that work. So endabortion now.com is where you guys go to do that. And Luke, there's more.

[Luke the Bear]

Yes. And of course we want to mention Heritage Defense. Our good friends there, Bradley Pierce, if you homeschool your children, please sign up with them. Very affordable. You can go to heritagedefense.org and put apology in the coupon code. Get your first month free. And then of course, Dominion Wealth. You saw the ad at the beginning. Love those guys. I see him in the chat again and super grateful to be partnering with them. You can go to Reform Money and get a free consultation for them. And I highly recommend it.

[Jeff Durbin]

All right, everybody, thankful for you. Just a reminder if you just got into the broadcast, next week, Tuesday, Winfield, Illinois, end Abortion now. Going to be meeting with Senator Neil Anderson, the historic bill of abolition and equal protection in Illinois. We need you. The legislature in your state does not believe that you want abolition of the abolition of abortion. They don't believe it. And so we need to show them that you do. And so we need to gather together as the churches all across the state of Illinois work together as a team as the bill comes back next session to make sure that it passes. We need you to do it. It's your state. It's not mine. Neil Anderson and I got the bill in, but it's your state. It doesn't belong to us. It's your state. And so we need you to work together with us to make sure this thing passes. After the episode, I'm going to put in the description of this episode, the link to RSVP for the event. 5:30pm Next Tuesday, the 4th Winfield, Illinois. We're going to have dinner for you guys and then we're going to get right into it to show you how you can work together with us to make sure this thing passes. And so that's coming next week. Make sure you guys let other pastors and leaders know that that's going on. Also, don't forget right now we're in the process of doing a revamp of all things and Apologia Studios, new tools, new resources, new program, new set, all that stuff. More cultural engagement, more conflict for you guys to learn from. That's all coming. It's all underway right now. We're actually doing some more construction tomorrow and so you guys can help with that [e-mail] give. Thank you guys for being a part of this ministry with us. Thank you for praying for us. Thank you for sharing the content. Thank you so much that you're a part of this with us. It means the world to us. I'm Jeff the Coleman and ninja. That's Luke the Bear right there. And we'll see you next week for a really, really, really important and special episode. I'm not even going to announce it. You'll see on Monday. We're going to drop some content for it. We're filming it on Saturday. Coming in to film it on Saturday. Next week's Apologia Radio. Get ready for it. Trust me, get ready for it. Be looking for it. We'll give you guys a little sneak peek on Monday as to what we're doing for next Thursday's episode. So we will catch you next week right here on Apologia Radio.