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565. The Sad State of Mormon Apologetics - Apologia Radio | Wave AI Podcast Notes

565. The Sad State of Mormon Apologetics

Fri Apr 03 2026

Join us for the newest episode of Apologia Radio in which we spent a little bit of time engaging with some content from an online Mormon apologist named Hayden Carroll. Hayden has a history of misrepresenting his opponents and selling that misrepresentation to other Mormons. We take a few moments to speak to that issue. Tell someone about it!

Summary

Podcast Summary: Apologia Radio – The Sad State of Mormon Apologetics

Host: Jeff Durbin (with Luke and occasional comments from Pastor James)
Date: April 3, 2026
Theme: A critical look at contemporary Mormon apologetics, specifically engaging with the claims and style of Mormon apologist Hayden Carroll, and a defense of biblical, “creedal” Christianity’s foundations.

Episode Overview

This episode tackles the quality and tone of current Mormon apologetics, focusing on recent online exchanges with prominent young Mormon apologist Hayden Carroll. Drawing on decades of LDS outreach, Jeff and Luke critique Carroll’s arguments and approach, address common misconceptions about Reformed theology and sola scriptura, and emphasize the importance of honest, respectful debate among Christians and Mormons. The backdrop is an ongoing season of outreach at the Mesa, Arizona Mormon Temple, marking Jeff’s 30th year of LDS evangelism.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Engaging Mormon Apologetics in the Modern Era

Context: The episode arises amid Apologia Church’s annual Mormon temple outreach, focusing efforts on presenting the biblical gospel to Latter-day Saints.
Personal Connection: Jeff shares that many Mormons are “some of the sweetest and greatest people on earth” and that he treasures the LDS/Christian dialogue ([05:50]).

Critiquing Hayden Carroll’s Apologetics

Video Exchange ‘Inception’: The hosts describe several rounds of response videos between Hayden and Apologia, leading to this analysis ([08:56]).
Tone & Attitude Matters: The hosts repeatedly call out what they see as Hayden’s arrogance, misrepresentation, and childishness in his approach.
- “You obviously think very highly of yourself... there was no thought in our minds, ‘did we ever have that conversation – this is trouble for us’” (Jeff, [10:43]).
- “Do better. Honestly, do better. This is a really poor opening to a response” (Jeff, [11:23]).
‘View Count’ Silliness: Carroll alleged Apologia was engaging him for more views; hosts reject this, pointing out the absurdity of that metric as a basis for dialogue ([11:24]-[13:56]).

Substance over Straw Men: Theological Accuracy

Challenging the ‘Restored Gospel’:
- Jeff addresses the claim that Mormonism restored a lost gospel, arguing this is biblically and historically impossible:
  
  “You can’t claim to be a continuation of the biblical God and biblical revelation and say that there’s a restored gospel... Scripture would deny that as a possibility.”
  ([17:56])
- Repeated citation of Jude v.3 (“the faith once for all delivered to the saints”) and allusions to enduring church, Isaiah 9, Daniel 7, and Christ’s promise that “the gates of hell would not prevail” against the Church.
The Sola Scriptura Debate:
- The conversation pivots to the nature and basis of sola scriptura (Scripture alone as the rule of faith).
- Apologia argues:
  
  “Sola scriptura is a doctrine that’s based upon revelation... Where today do we have access to the inspired revelation of God?... Only in the Scriptures.” ([21:05]-[24:02])
- Jeff rebukes Carroll for conflating the concept of Scripture’s primacy with the question of canon formation, calling it a category error and a “very, very weak argument” regularly borrowed from Roman Catholic polemics ([21:05]-[25:12]).

Misrepresentation and the Need for Steelmanning

On ‘Knowing’ Versus ‘Justifying’ Moral Truth:
- Carroll mischaracterizes Jeff as denying that non-Christians can know any moral truth.
- Jeff clarifies the distinction between knowing something (general revelation/natural law) and having justified, objective grounds for it:
  
  “The problem isn’t that there’s a lack of light … it’s that they suppress that truth in unrighteousness.”
  ([28:30]-[29:55])
- This is given philosophical framing (epistemic “warrant”)—the point isn’t knowledge itself, but reliable justification.
Illustrative Debate:
- Jeff includes a segment from a debate with atheists at the University of Utah. The atheist admits that, without God, moral claims like “murder is wrong” aren’t absolutely wrong but “intersubjectively” or culturally wrong ([35:15]-[38:51]).
- “Because of his worldview… he has to construct some meaningful system. But when you get down to the foundations, he has to, admit: Well, no, child-rape is not absolutely wrong. No, murder is not absolutely wrong. It’s just a cultural conversation.”
  ([38:51])

Invitations to Maturity and Honest Dialogue

Repeated Admonitions to ‘Do Better’:
- Jeff frequently urges Carroll and his viewers to raise the standard of discourse:
  
  “Don’t misrepresent your opponent. You need to grow up a little, I think, and I mean that to you respectfully, grow up a little in your engagement with others.” ([25:29])
- Critique is not about avoiding hard questions, but about avoiding playground taunts and focusing on substance.
Rebuffing ‘Cowardice’ Accusations:
- Luke and Jeff both address claims that Apologia avoids debate with serious Mormon apologists:
  
  “We’ve talked to Hayden personally in person at the temple. This isn’t an issue that he made a public video, we’re responding publicly. We don’t have to entertain any of this nonsense in the chat channel.” ([41:39])
- Jeff underscores his and Dr. James White’s history of engagement, expressing a preference for debating truly official representatives of the LDS Church ([42:40]) and that time constraints, not fear, are what often prevent debates.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On LDS Outreach:
“The Latter Day Saints are my favorite community to communicate the gospel to... it’s been a true honor and privilege in my life to have relationships with Latter Day Saints, to engage them with the gospel. I love the Mormon community.”
– Jeff Durbin ([05:50])
On Tone and Online Jousting:
“If you wanted to play this game, then... let’s see who has a bigger subscriber count, who has the most views across platforms… It’s kind of childish isn’t it?”
– Jeff Durbin ([13:56])
On the Possibility of Restoration:
“A restoration [of the gospel] is not possible, because a complete falling away is also not possible. And that’s what Scripture teaches.”
– Jeff Durbin ([18:46])
On Sola Scriptura & Revelation:
“At the heart of it [sola scriptura] is a revelational epistemology… It’s based on the reference point of God doing the speaking.”
– Jeff Durbin ([24:02])
On Moral Epistemology:
“Every single image bearer of God knows the true God and they know the basics of what is right and wrong… The problem, though, is because they reject God, they develop these complex worldviews to try to live in a world apart from God. But… they cannot provide any justification for those moral claims.”
– Jeff Durbin ([29:45])
On Debate Invitations:
“I want somebody who’s an official representative of the church… Oftentimes you have these debates with [rank-and-file Mormons]… That person doesn’t officially represent the church.”
– Jeff Durbin ([42:40])

Timestamps for Key Segments

[05:50] – Jeff discusses 30 years of LDS evangelism and deep respect for the Mormon community.
[08:56] – “Video inception”: Explanation of the multiple rounds of video responses with Hayden.
[10:43]-[11:24] – Critique of Hayden’s attitude and self-regard.
[13:56] – The “view count” argument as a childish debate tactic.
[16:06] – Breakdown of the “restored gospel” claim; biblical and historical counters.
[19:37]-[20:51] – Sola scriptura defined and defended.
[21:05]-[25:12] – Critique of the “canon certainty” objection.
[28:30]-[29:55] – Clarifying the “moral knowledge” versus “moral justification” distinction.
[35:15]-[38:51] – University of Utah atheism debate excerpt; exposing the lack of ultimate ethical foundation without God.
[41:39] – Addressing accusations of cowardice and explaining YouTube moderation policy.
[42:40] – Discussion of the lack of official LDS debaters and preference for official church representatives.
[49:41]-[50:46] – Positive testimony about recent respectful Mormon engagement at Mesa.

Closing Advice and Reflection

The hosts repeatedly call for steel-manning—accurately representing an opponent's position at its strongest and engaging charitably.
Jeff repeatedly urges the next generation of apologists (Mormon and Christian alike) to “do better,” warning that childish tactics and misrepresentation only hinder honest pursuit of truth.

Episode Takeaways

There is a rich tradition of robust LDS/Christian dialogue. Civility, intellectual charity, and honest engagement are paramount for meaningful discussion.
Key historic Christian doctrines (enduring church, finality of revelation, sola scriptura) are strongly defended against Mormon claims of apostasy/restoration.
Moral knowledge is acknowledged as shared by all humans (via general revelation), but only Christianity, Jeff argues, offers an unshakeable foundation and justification for objective ethics.
Honest debate must avoid polemical taunts and focus on substance; both sides bear responsibility for elevating the conversation.

This summary omits all advertisements and non-content sections, focusing on the episode’s principal arguments and the heart of the dialogue between Apologia Radio and contemporary Mormon apologetics.

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Transcript

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Jeff Durbin (1:15)

Non Rockabotus Must stop. I don't want to rock the boat. I want to sink it. Are you gonna bark all day, little doggy? Or are you gonna bite? Delusional. Yeah, delusional is okay. In your worldview, I'm an animal. You don't chastise chickens for being delusional. You don't chastise pigs for being so. You calling me delusional using your worldview is perfectly okay. It doesn't really hurt. She hung up on me. Desperate times call for faithful men and not for careful men. The careful men come later and write the biographies of the faithful men, lauding them for their courage.

Luke (1:59)

Go into all the world and make disciples. Not go into the world and make buddies. Not to make corrosives. Don't go in the world, make homies.

Jeff Durbin (2:07)

Right.

Luke (2:07)

Disciples.

Jeff Durbin (2:09)

I got a bit of a jiggle neck. That's a joke, Pastor.

Pastor James (2:14)

When we have the real message of

Jeff Durbin (2:16)

truth, we cannot let somebody say they're speaking truth when they're not. Take an amazing journey to a place that will blow your mind and move your mind so you will never be the same again. Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints. That's Jude, verse three. Verse three. Because there's only. There's not chapters. There's just the third verse. The faith that Was once for all delivered to the saints. What's up, everybody? Welcome back to another episode of Apologia Radio. This is the gospel heard around the world. I'm Jeff the com ninja. That's Luke the Bear right there. What up, Luke the Cyborg there. Luke the Cyborg elbow. That's. That's serious. That's a weapon. That's definitely a weapon. How's your arm going?

Jeff Durbin (4:00)

You do it while I'm talking. Okay. There we go. If you're new to Apology Radio, I want to say welcome. Thank you so much for joining us. We're grateful that you're here. If you would do all the things that YouTube likes do, the likes and the, the shares and all that stuff help people get a hold episode where it's gonna be a shorter episode. Today. Pastor Luke and I have some stuff we have to do. So we're going to take a stab at something and then hopefully in the future do some, some more on this because I think it's an important subject. And so if you guys are new Again, go to apologiastudios.com a p o l o g I a studios dot com. When you go there, you get access to all of the past episodes of Apologia Radio. There's cultists there, there's provoke, there's shiologians. All of that guys is, is years deep and it's all there for your listening pleasure. So go check that out. Also, if you would sign up for all access. When you guys do all Access you in this ministry. So the millions upon millions of people who are hearing the gospel, the people who are getting training and teaching and apologetics and, and, and the word of God, all that takes place through Apologia Studios, through people just like you who are sharing the content, who are part of this ministry with us. They're all access. And when you guys are all access, we want to bless you with even more. So we have the after shows, we have the Ask Me Anythings, we have the Academy up@apologia studios.com. great stuff there. And, and so yeah, there's lots more coming to this year, so have a shorter episode today because we got some things we got to do but wanted to just talk this. You know, right now we're, we're at the time of year that's very special to us. It's an opportunity for us to go to the Mormon Temple in Mesa, Arizona and to engage Latter Day Saints with the biblical gospel, pointing them to the true Christ. And so I've been doing this, this, I, I just realized this last week when I was out of the temple, that this is my 30th year going to the Mormon Temple to do evangelism with the local Latter Day Saints 30 year anniversary.

Jeff Durbin (5:50)

Yeah, it is. So 1996 is when I first went and that's where I also got to meet officially for the first time, Pastor James. And it's been a blessing. The Latter Day Saints are my favorite community to communicate the gospel to. I think the Latter Day Saints are some of the sweetest and greatest people on earth. I was talking to a group of Mormons yesterday, quite a few of them actually just came up to engage. I said they watched the content and they were just very gracious and super sweet and great conversations. But I even said to one of them last night, I said, you know, there's lots of Mormons that I'd prefer to like go out to eat with and hang out with and some professing Christians. And I genuinely mean that. So anyway, it's been a true honor and privilege in my life to have relationships with Latter Day Saints, to engage them with the gospel. I love the Mormon community. And so right now we're in the midst of it. We're going out and just handing out tracts, trying to have conversations with Latter Day Saints and pointing to scripture, pointing to the true God and the true gospel. So this is fresh in our minds right now. And, and so I wanted to gauge a bit today just because it's fresh in my mind. With one online Mormon apologist. His name is Hayden Carroll. Uh, there's, I think two right now that are, are the most prevalent or popular amongst young Mormons. And that would be, uh, Jacob. And he is Henson. He's the one who's debating, uh, Dr. James White tomorrow in Ogden, Utah. I wish. I don't know if they're going to have a link, a live link. I need to ask Jason Wallace if they're going to have a live link so people can watch it live. So Pastor James is debating Jacob on something like, is the God of Calvinism morally reprehensible? And so that's Tomorrow, I think, 1:00pm in Ogden, Utah. And so, yeah, Hayden and Jacob seem to be the younger Mormon apologists that a lot of the younger Mormons are listening to and trying to get help from. And so I thought maybe it'd be good for us start engaging a bit more as we have time. And just so you know, this, this is one of the things people always love to do this like, you know, people do. You haven't.

Jeff Durbin (11:37)

So, Hayden, Hayden, we're not going to play this game. You know, if you. Okay, look, look, if. If you wanted to play this game, we could play this game, but we don't think that there's any value in it. But, but I'll go ahead and bite for a second here. If. If you wanted to play this game, then I. Okay, let's. Let's act like children and let's see who has a bigger subscriber count, who has the most views across platforms, whether it's Instagram or X or Facebook or YouTube. I mean, how many. How many subscription subscribers do you have on YouTube, Hayden, how many do you want to play this game? Do you really want to go there? Do you think so highly of yourself that these sorts of attacks are going to be convincing to people who are thinking critically? And so I just say, I said it to you last episode. I said, hayden, do better. Honestly, do better. This is a really poor opening to a response. I'll be honest with you. Right at this point, I don't take you very seriously. And I mean that with as much respect to you as an image bearer of God, but as an apologist, I don't take you very seriously. We're a few seconds in this, into this video. You think very highly of yourself. You got a lot of assumptions about what we're doing, why we're doing it, and it's just childish. You know, their view count is down, and so that's why they're doing this, to get their views up. I assure you, this episode, if we were working for view counts and trying to raise the view counts of our channel, this episode is hurting us. There are so many other issues that we could do to add views if that's what we were doing. If our whole goal was to get higher views, there are ways to do that. Trust me, there are ways to do that. But that's not necessarily something that's like always in the front of our mind. Like, we do want to have an impact on the most people, for sure, but we're not going. You know, this is a really important issue, but this one over here will get us more views. What we want to do is respond to things that will bless the church 100 years from now. And so view counts. I mean, again, if you want to play that game, let's compare view counts. Our Subscription and then our view counts over against yours. How do you think you would fare in that battle, Hayden? It's kind of childish to think about, isn't it? Like if we went ahead and followed suit and said, well, okay, let's do this, let's play this game of view counts, would, would you do well in that conversation, Hayden, or are you acting a bit childish? I think I know the answer to that.

Jeff Durbin (21:05)

authority Hayden loves this argument. And Hayden, I'm sorry, this is a very, very weak argument. And if we do end up having a debate one day, I'm going to engage you on this and I'm going to press hard. But also, you just showed your ignorance. And Hayden, you do that often. You show your ignorance. And I don't mean that to take down your dignity. I mean that you are ignorant. You don't know, you don't understand, understand the Fathers. You don't understand church history. You manipulate things, you distort facts. And in this case, you are distorting what I was saying completely, because you just went to a question of revelation about which books belong in the canon, and you did that when I was responding or actually explaining what the doctrine of Sola scriptura is based upon. It's based upon revelation. In other words, words, sola scriptura, the Scriptures alone, or the sole infallible rule of faith and practice, is a doctrine based upon revelation. In other words, that the Scriptures contain the revelation of God. But, Hayden, you're so ignorant about this conversation that you didn't know what I was saying. And if you would listen to what I was saying, you would see that that's precisely what I was talking about, not revelation about which books belong in the canon. You are, you are so fixated on this very bad argum that, let's be honest, you mostly got from Roman Catholics. It's bad when they give it, too. You're so fixated on it, you're just looking for the opportunity to squeeze your chestnut into the conversation. But that's not what I was talking about. This is not a conversation about that I was having there about Sola scriptura and what it is, in essence, about which books belong in the canon. Sola scriptura, at the heart of it, is about revelational epistemology. It's revelational based upon revelation that God has spoken. And that's how I know certainty is found in justification can be given, because these are the words of God and this is the revelation of God. And so you didn't understand, and so you misrepresented. You jumped from one thing, one conversation, into another one, which is one of your favorite arguments. Again, a very poor argument. I dare you to try to bring that to me. And I hope you do. I really hope that you do. But you, you just misrepresented your opponent. So again, Hayden, do better. That's, that's not what I was talking about, about revelation telling us which books are in the King canon. Again, this is one of Your favorite arguments. And so you just had to find a way to squeeze it in there. It's very poor. But that's not what I was talking about. I was talking about the epistemological grounding for sola scriptura. Why sola scriptura? Because it is based upon the revelation of God. And where today do we have access to the inspired revelation of God? Where today do you have access to the inspired revelation of God? And that's not something that just Christians say or Protestants say. Roman Catholics will also acknowledge. Yeah. That these are the inspired words of scripture, the prophets and the apostles in Scripture. And so this is what we have access to, to their teachings about what God said. And so it's revelational. It's based upon the reference point of God doing the speaking. And so sola scriptura, at the heart of it is a revelational epistemology. And the question for the Protestant is, is where do we have access today to the words of Jesus and the apostles? We don't have Jesus physically with us today speaking to us. We're not at his feet guiding us. And he's speaking today, like in the flesh to us today. The apostles all died. They're not living and speaking to us today. So where do we have access today to the inspired words of the prophets and apostles in scripture? And the answer for the Protestant is, is only in the Scriptures. Now, you, you might want to debate that point, and that's fine. But what sola scriptura is at its heart is a revelational epistemology. That's what I was talking about. I wasn't talking about God revealing which books are in the canon. And again, do better if you can.

Jeff Durbin (25:29)

Sure, Luke. I know that God has never taught sola scriptura, and that's why that I say that it's God's standard. Hayden, just you, you've got to do better. You know this. You know this. Is that why I've spent a decades of my life teaching it and teaching it from the scriptures. I mean, if you were serious, if you were a serious person, Hayden, and I don't take you as a serious person. If you were a serious person, you would actually engage with the years of content and teaching that I have on the issue of sola scriptura, where I Go to the text itself and demonstrate from the Bible the biblical standard of God's revelation being supreme, it being the plumb line, it being the standard, the test for truth. You would, you would engage with the scriptures that I go through from the Old and New Testament demonstrating this standard, that it is the revelation of God that is the standard and is the reference point for all of God's people. You would go to those verses and you would try to engage with them, but unfortunately it seems like you're not a very serious person. So you say things like this, Jeff knows that this isn't in the Bible or Jeff knows that God doesn't teach this. Is that why I have entire sermons, an hour long, an hour and a half long, based upon the text of God's word, demonstrating the principle of the primacy and reference, reference point of God's revelation as supreme. And so I don't know, is that why I teach it? And so here's what I'm saying, Hayden, do better. Don't misrepresent your opponent. You need to grow up a little, I think, and I mean that to you respectfully, grow up a little in your engagement with others. Because I think anybody who's serious minded and wants answers and wants a real engagement isn't going to take any of this seriously. I certainly don't. And I want to take you seriously. But after listening to you and watching you over, say, even the last week, I, I just, I, I have a hard time taking you very seriously at all as an opponent. And again, I don't mean to take down your dignity. I mean it with as much respect as I can give to you. But it's things like this, it's the slights, it's the misrepresentations, it's the, it's that Jeff, Jeff knows, Jeff knows the Bible doesn't teach this. Is that why Jeff teaches it all the time to his wife, to his children, to his church body? And he does it from the scriptures? I mean, Hayden, please, please do better.

Jeff Durbin (28:30)

Okay, so the claim from Hayden here is that we can't know moral truth before God tells us. That's his claim. Jeff says that we can't know moral truth before God tells us. Us. Now you played it yourself, Hayden. Listen to what you play from Jeff. That contradicts what you just said. How do I know with certainty? How do I have justified true belief? How do I have warrant to say like this is true, this is, this is the, this is the true ethic. And so, so I said, how do we know? And I'm talking here, and you'd love to take things out of context, apparently, about how we have warrants, warrant, how we have justification, how we have justified true belief. This is a philosophical conversation about epistemology that I'm having about how do you have certainty and justification or warrant about any particular belief. And in this case, I'm talking about ethics. And if you knew my theology, if you were concerned with accurately representing your opponents and what they actually teach and believe, you would know that I believe that there is something called general revelation, and that is that that revelation does get through to every image bearer of God. And you would know that I've taught for years upon years upon years publicly that general revelation is true. General revelation gets through. And that every single image bearer of God knows the true God and they know the basics of what is right and wrong. They have that written within them. They know these things. But the problem isn't that there's a lack of light and they just don't know enough, enough. And that they can't know. It's that they suppress that truth and unrighteousness and they are rebellious against the true and living God, that they are haters of God, they are enemies of God. And so they do know in their heart of hearts that they're to love their neighbor rather than eat their neighbor. They do know that murder is wrong, but they cannot, because of their rebellion, either obey it or even justify it. So this is a, this is a conversation about justification. It's about warrants providing justification and having ground for certainty on these ethical questions. I never said that unbelievers don't know the difference between right and wrong. The problem is not that they don't know. It's that they refuse to know God and they don't want God in their knowledge and they suppress that truth and Unrighteousness. So every, every unbeliever in the world, every lost person in the world world knows that it is against God's command to. To murder somebody, to take their life in an unjustified manner. Everybody knows that. The problem, though, is because they reject God, they develop these complex worldviews to try to live in a world apart from God. But when they develop those complex worldviews, they cannot provide any justification for those moral claims or ethical demands. I hope that you understand that now, and I'm going to play in a moment an example of how that looks and what I was, what I'm getting at. My beliefs here have been consistently taught for many, many years, Hayden. And if you were to commit to do better and to actually accurately represent your opponents, you would know that. Yeah, Jeff's been consistent on this, as he teaches on this all the time. So here we go. Love your neighbor, Eat your neighbor. And so Christians tend to know how they answer that question. Well, you love your neighbor as you love yourselves. Well, why do you believe that? Well, because that's from God himself. Jesus told us that.

Jeff Durbin (38:51)

So because of his worldview, because he rejects God, because he refuses to listen to God's word and stand on God's word, he has to construct some system, some meaningful system, to say rape is wrong, pedophilia is wrong, murder is wrong. He has to. But then he has to, when you get down to his foundations, admit. Well, no, Pedophilia child rape is not actually absolutely wrong. No, murder is not absolutely wrong. It's just. It's a cultural conversation we're having. And so basically he's like, it's not the agreement, it's the conversation we have. Okay, so the conversation we have that. That ends up in the agreement that this is all okay to do. So it's just. It's just a mess. That's what's being spoken to Hayden, that issue, the epistemological grounding, providing warrant and justification, the preconditions of intelligibility for the ethical questions. That's what I was referring to. The issue is an epistemological question that you missed. You missed. And then you put up a video. Video misrepresenting and pontificating and acting like you know what you're talking about. And Hayden, you don't. And this isn't the first time that we've engaged in the last couple of years with Mormon apologists who are. Who are, I guess, want to do this to. To. I mean, there was a video that, a while back that. Where Jacob had. Had. Had misrepresented Michael Heiser and did an entire video misrepresenting Michael Heiser's entire channel teaching. And we responded to that. We refuted that. Is that video still up? I think that it's still up. And so it's just. It's. It's misrepresentation. I would just encourage you to represent your opponent accurately. And so when you do things like this, Hayden, you leave a public record of ignorance and, you know, you can leave your video up. That's. That's fine. But we'll just continue to respond and to show the problems and the misrepresentation. But we're only. What do we get a minute into this video, a minute and a half into this video, and you've demonstrated that you don't know what your opponents believe, that you're willing to misrepresent them, that you're willing to put up videos, shoot from the hip pontificate and pretend like you know what you're talking about when you clearly don't. I mean this with as much respect to you as possible and honor towards you as possible. You. You need to.

Jeff Durbin (42:40)

This pretty much forever anyways. So I just want that point clear. Also it's, it's another example too of, of just misrepresenting your opponents. Anybody who's serious minded would look at somebody making just childish comments like that about cowards and whatever, you're afraid or something like that. I would just say look at the history. Look at the history of going out onto the street, of going to Mormon wards, of engaging Mormon bishops. I mean, I'm talking thousands of interactions. Look at the history of public debate and engagement. We go out to all kinds of, we go out to the abortion mills and engage with hostile people there. We have people throwing things at us, trying to hit us with cars, pulling guns on us, those sorts of things. And so this whole just very childish like 6th grade call out thing of like you're afraid you're chicken or something like that, like that. I haven't been afraid to engage with the best of the, of the other worldviews for many, many years. And I hope for many, many more to come. And, and I can say that, you know, one, one of the things that I've, I've had as a commitment for years is that engaging in a public debate with Mormonism. I want somebody who's an official representative of the church. I want somebody who represents Mormonism that the church says represents Mormonism. Because I think it's important that this subject is as important to say that, no, I want somebody that's an actual official representative of the church to engage this issue because oftentimes you have these debates with, you know, I don't mean this in any way derogatory. I'm just saying a low level Mormon that's not a representative of the church. If you have that debate, people can say oh, you know, they were wrong and yeah, they lost that debate or yeah, they contradicted themselves, but that person doesn't officially actually represent the church. Anyways. I, I think Walter Martin was right when he engaged in the past with Van Hale that he wanted an official representative of the church. Representative of the church. And I think that that would be very valuable. However, however, we'll look at the schedule, we'll see how things are over the next year. Again, end abortion now is, is for me one of the important, other important things to invest my life in. And God is blessing that tremendously right now. And I think the lives of baby, babies are much more important and valuable to invest this kind of time in. And so, but we'll see, we'll see, we'll see how the, how the Lord allows the next year to go for us and maybe something like that will happen. But I will say that it's going to be for me dependent upon having a worthy opponent who demonstrates that they do care about accurately the representing their, their own opponents. And so yeah, yeah.

Jeff Durbin (51:08)

Well, James is talking tomorrow to Jacob. So again, another, another falsehood. Tomorrow James is debating Jacob in Ogden. So this is just, it's just, it's such a misrepresentation. I just want to say to all my Mormon friends out there, don't follow your Mormon leaders who are engaging in the sixth grade behavior. The insulting, calling people names, you know, calling them out like, you know, are you chicken, are you yellow, are you scared? Those sorts of things. When all, when all of the, the, all of the evidence in the history says exact, exactly the opposite. How many debates does Pastor James have to do with hundreds of the world's best from the opposing worldview before you'll say, you'll stop saying as an argument, they just won't engage with us. I mean look up Dr. James White Mormon debate and see the people that James has debated with. He's debated with your best, the best representations of representatives of Mormonism. And so you know, when you say things like that, it just doesn't match the fact that, and so I just encourage all of you, do better. The childishness, the insulting, the talking about your view counts are down and those sorts of things like it doesn't get us anywhere. It doesn't get us any closer to really understanding each other. It doesn't get us any closer to the truth. I just want to encourage you all like I'm saying to Hayden, do better, do better. We will advance in this conversation if we just commit to not doing those sorts of things. I'm not saying we don't say hard things to each other. I'm not saying that at all. All I'm saying, the childish stuff and these kind of call outs just, they just don't even make any sense. They don't match the facts. And so I encourage you not to do that. So, all right, we have to go. We're really, really running out of time here. So just last things we need to say. Do we need to say anything else about Apologia Studios? Go to the store, get yourself some tracks, get you some swag. Go all. Go all in on that stuff. And then. Sorry, I'm going in a rush here, guys. Yeah.