Podcast Summary: Apple News Today

Episode: Rebroadcast: An FBI agent went undercover in America’s extremist groups. Here’s what he learned.
Host: Shumita Basu
Guest: Scott Payne (Retired FBI Agent, Author)
Date: December 27, 2025

Episode Overview

In this audience-favorite episode, host Shumita Basu sits down with Scott Payne, a retired FBI agent who spent his career undercover in extremist groups, including white supremacist and neo-Nazi organizations in the United States. With a new book and podcast exploring his experiences, Scott shares how he infiltrated these dangerous circles, the emotional and ethical costs of undercover work, and his unique perspective on hate groups and law enforcement. This episode dives deep into the methods, mindset, and moments that defined Scott’s career.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Undercover Agent in Extremist Groups

• Scott Payne's Background

  • Began as a cop in South Carolina, then moved to vice/narcotics, before joining the FBI (03:11).
  • “I made investigator advice and narcotics. So I'm... certified in undercover techniques at the academy...and I got the bug. I loved it.” (03:20, Scott)
  • Developed his persona based on his authentic self, leveraging his appearance and interests to blend in. (09:05)

• Infiltrating Hate Groups

  • Infiltrated organizations such as Ku Klux Klan and modern neo-Nazi groups.
  • Commented on the large but not overwhelming number of active groups in the U.S.
    • “Let’s just say there are thousands [of hate group members], and people are still being recruited.” (01:35, Scott)

• Undercover Techniques & Philosophy

  • Emphasized building genuine relationships, even though they ultimately lead to betrayal.
    • “True definition of undercover is building relationships that...you're going to betray.” (09:51, Scott)
  • Stressed the emotional impact and the importance of treating those arrested with dignity.
    • “I'm not saying I think you're a bad person. I'm not saying I even disagree with what you did. What I'm saying is...you made a choice to break the law and you got caught.” (10:46, Scott)

2. Dangers and Close Calls

[05:31–09:31]

• Motorcycle Gang Investigation: The Outlaws Case

  • Recounted a harrowing moment when he was nearly exposed while wired during a gang’s security check.
    • “He says, I need you to write down your full name, your date of birth, all this information, and I need you to take all your clothes off because I'm gonna check you for a wire.” (06:50, Scott)
  • Narrowly escaped discovery after a tense physical search.
  • Reflected on instinct and backup plans for if the cover had been blown.
    • “The gig is up. I'm an undercover FBI agent, and I can walk out of here, and we can see each other in court, or all hell's gonna break loose.” (08:40, Scott, on his mental rehearsals)

• On Burnout and Psychological Strain

  • Suffered significant physical and emotional toll after prolonged undercover work.

    • “For a three year period of my life I met my threshold. I was going way too hard...I crashed.” (12:35, Scott)

  • Exposed alarming rates of suicide, divorce, and early mortality among first responders.

    • “We're number one for suicide...divorce...alcoholism...it’s a pressure cooker.” (13:29, Scott)

3. Inside Neo-Nazi and Accelerationist Networks

[14:14–21:47]

• Understanding ‘The Base’ and Accelerationism

  • Defined accelerationism: belief in hastening societal collapse via chaos and violence to create a white ethnostate. (14:46)
    • “They don't believe that there's a political solution to save the white race. They believe that society is going to collapse...and they want to speed that up by creating chaos.” (14:46, Scott)

• Recruitment and Indoctrination

  • Described online recruitment through platforms like Gab and Telegram (16:00)
  • Shared about the typical profiles: young, isolated, often bullied individuals drawn in by hate content online.

• Hate Camp & Ritual Violence

  • Recalled a “hate camp” where members performed a goat sacrifice, took drugs, and engaged in pagan rituals for propaganda (17:11–21:21).
    • “We go down to the ceremony...they have gone not too far down the road and stolen a ram...and then they commence to slicing the entire head off, which we carried around for three more days on photo ops.” (17:30-20:41, Scott)
    • “A lot of members took hits of acid...you're chasing it with the blood as part of the sacrifice.” (20:11, Scott)
  • Reflected on the line between horrific but legal activity, and prosecutable offenses.

• Building a Case: Legal Constraints

  • Explained lack of a federal domestic terrorism statute meant convictions were often for conspiracies, murders, weapon, or immigration crimes (21:47).
    • “We can't investigate you for your hate, but...if there's evidence...you could be doing some illegal stuff...we're always trying to find them and stop them.” (21:47, Scott)

4. Stopping Violent Plots & Outcomes

[21:47–24:33]

• Preventing Massacres

  • Prevented a planned murder and arson of a perceived “antifa” couple and their family in Georgia.
    • “The finalized plan was...to go in the house, murder everything in it...burn the house down.” (22:22, Scott)
    • “One of the members...said, ‘I don't have a problem killing commie kids.’” (23:34, Scott)
  • Averted an attack at a Virginia pro-gun rally by recording planning conversations.
    • “We can't really live with ourselves if we don't get some like blood on our hands.” (24:59, Base member via Scott’s recording)

• Legal Outcomes

  • Arrests made for murder plots, state-level charges, illegal possession and movement of firearms, and harboring an undocumented Canadian member—demonstrating the investigative hurdles and wins (24:04).
  • “A lot of those in Georgia got charged through state level...There was a Canadian...absconded illegally...but that's illegal, right?” (24:04, Scott)

5. Reflections on Law Enforcement & Extremism

[25:24–27:02]

• Evolution of FBI Priorities

  • Since 2020, the FBI's focus and resources for domestic terrorism have reportedly decreased under changes in leadership (25:24).
  • Noted a rise in hate group activity alongside these changes.

• The Need for Vigilance

  • “You got to keep looking, and people have to be vigilant and report. If you see something, say something, and that may put those people on our radar.” (26:12, Scott)
  • Stressed that catastrophic events often precede action, underscoring the importance of ongoing vigilance.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Building Relationships as an Undercover Agent:

  • “The definition, true definition of undercover is building relationships that you're most likely going to betray.” (09:51, Scott)

• On Burnout:

  • “For a three year period...I crashed. And when I say I crashed...I slept over 16 hours a day.” (12:35, Scott)
  • “We're number one for suicide...divorce...alcoholism...” (13:29, Scott)

• On Hate Group Recruitment:

  • “If you're that outsider and you've been bullied, now that's going to add a little bit more to your hate.” (26:12, Scott)

• On the Goals of Accelerationist Groups:

  • “They want to speed [collapse] up by creating chaos...power grid over here goes down, train gets derailed, water system gets poisoned, lefty journalist gets murdered...In an effort to kick off what they refer to...as the boogaloo—a race war.” (14:46, Scott)

• On the Thin Line Between Hate and Crime:

  • “You can't investigate you for your hate...but we're always trying to find them and stop them.” (21:47, Scott)

• Dramatic Moment—The Wire Search:

  • “He starts grabbing that piece of clothing, and he's kneading it with his fingers, and he misses it. I mean, he misses it by a hair.” (07:52, Scott)

• On Motivation for Undercover Work:

  • “It's a calling that you felt and that's what you're doing it for. If not, you probably will wash out because you're definitely not doing it for money.” (14:01, Scott)

Important Timestamps

• [01:00] Introduction of Scott Payne, background on hate groups.
• [03:11] Scott discusses how he became an undercover officer.
• [06:09-08:14] The Outlaws gang close call, nearly discovered while wired.
• [09:31] Ethics of befriending and betraying targets during undercover work.
• [12:35] Burnout, mental health consequences for agents.
• [14:46] Explanation of accelerationism and recruiting in neo-Nazi groups.
• [17:11-21:21] Harrowing account of the “hate camp” ritual sacrifice.
• [21:47] How law enforcement builds cases against domestic extremists.
• [22:22-24:33] Details of averted mass murder/arson plots and legal strategies.
• [24:59] Recording violent plotting at the Virginia rally.
• [25:24] Discussion of changing FBI priorities and the need for vigilance.

Closing Thoughts

This episode provides a gripping, detailed first-person account of the dangers, methods, and emotional complexity in the world of undercover counter-extremism work. Scott Payne paints a stark picture of hate groups’ inner workings—while also offering humanizing insights on policing, burnout, and the importance of constant vigilance in the face of domestic extremism.

Find more in Scott’s book Codename Pale Horse and in the podcast series White Hot Hate.