Rebroadcast: An FBI agent went undercover in America’s extremist groups. Here’s what he learned.

Summary

Podcast Summary: Apple News Today

Episode: Rebroadcast: An FBI agent went undercover in America’s extremist groups. Here’s what he learned.
Host: Shumita Basu
Guest: Scott Payne (Retired FBI Agent, Author)
Date: December 27, 2025

Episode Overview

In this audience-favorite episode, host Shumita Basu sits down with Scott Payne, a retired FBI agent who spent his career undercover in extremist groups, including white supremacist and neo-Nazi organizations in the United States. With a new book and podcast exploring his experiences, Scott shares how he infiltrated these dangerous circles, the emotional and ethical costs of undercover work, and his unique perspective on hate groups and law enforcement. This episode dives deep into the methods, mindset, and moments that defined Scott’s career.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Undercover Agent in Extremist Groups

• Scott Payne's Background

  • Began as a cop in South Carolina, then moved to vice/narcotics, before joining the FBI (03:11).
  • “I made investigator advice and narcotics. So I'm... certified in undercover techniques at the academy...and I got the bug. I loved it.” (03:20, Scott)
  • Developed his persona based on his authentic self, leveraging his appearance and interests to blend in. (09:05)

• Infiltrating Hate Groups

  • Infiltrated organizations such as Ku Klux Klan and modern neo-Nazi groups.
  • Commented on the large but not overwhelming number of active groups in the U.S.
    • “Let’s just say there are thousands [of hate group members], and people are still being recruited.” (01:35, Scott)

• Undercover Techniques & Philosophy

  • Emphasized building genuine relationships, even though they ultimately lead to betrayal.
    • “True definition of undercover is building relationships that...you're going to betray.” (09:51, Scott)
  • Stressed the emotional impact and the importance of treating those arrested with dignity.
    • “I'm not saying I think you're a bad person. I'm not saying I even disagree with what you did. What I'm saying is...you made a choice to break the law and you got caught.” (10:46, Scott)

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2. Dangers and Close Calls

[05:31–09:31]

• Motorcycle Gang Investigation: The Outlaws Case

  • Recounted a harrowing moment when he was nearly exposed while wired during a gang’s security check.
    • “He says, I need you to write down your full name, your date of birth, all this information, and I need you to take all your clothes off because I'm gonna check you for a wire.” (06:50, Scott)
  • Narrowly escaped discovery after a tense physical search.
  • Reflected on instinct and backup plans for if the cover had been blown.
    • “The gig is up. I'm an undercover FBI agent, and I can walk out of here, and we can see each other in court, or all hell's gonna break loose.” (08:40, Scott, on his mental rehearsals)

• On Burnout and Psychological Strain

  • Suffered significant physical and emotional toll after prolonged undercover work.

    • “For a three year period of my life I met my threshold. I was going way too hard...I crashed.” (12:35, Scott)

  • Exposed alarming rates of suicide, divorce, and early mortality among first responders.

    • “We're number one for suicide...divorce...alcoholism...it’s a pressure cooker.” (13:29, Scott)

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3. Inside Neo-Nazi and Accelerationist Networks

[14:14–21:47]

• Understanding ‘The Base’ and Accelerationism

  • Defined accelerationism: belief in hastening societal collapse via chaos and violence to create a white ethnostate. (14:46)
    • “They don't believe that there's a political solution to save the white race. They believe that society is going to collapse...and they want to speed that up by creating chaos.” (14:46, Scott)

• Recruitment and Indoctrination

  • Described online recruitment through platforms like Gab and Telegram (16:00)
  • Shared about the typical profiles: young, isolated, often bullied individuals drawn in by hate content online.

• Hate Camp & Ritual Violence

  • Recalled a “hate camp” where members performed a goat sacrifice, took drugs, and engaged in pagan rituals for propaganda (17:11–21:21).
    • “We go down to the ceremony...they have gone not too far down the road and stolen a ram...and then they commence to slicing the entire head off, which we carried around for three more days on photo ops.” (17:30-20:41, Scott)
    • “A lot of members took hits of acid...you're chasing it with the blood as part of the sacrifice.” (20:11, Scott)
  • Reflected on the line between horrific but legal activity, and prosecutable offenses.

• Building a Case: Legal Constraints

  • Explained lack of a federal domestic terrorism statute meant convictions were often for conspiracies, murders, weapon, or immigration crimes (21:47).
    • “We can't investigate you for your hate, but...if there's evidence...you could be doing some illegal stuff...we're always trying to find them and stop them.” (21:47, Scott)

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4. Stopping Violent Plots & Outcomes

[21:47–24:33]

• Preventing Massacres

  • Prevented a planned murder and arson of a perceived “antifa” couple and their family in Georgia.
    • “The finalized plan was...to go in the house, murder everything in it...burn the house down.” (22:22, Scott)
    • “One of the members...said, ‘I don't have a problem killing commie kids.’” (23:34, Scott)
  • Averted an attack at a Virginia pro-gun rally by recording planning conversations.
    • “We can't really live with ourselves if we don't get some like blood on our hands.” (24:59, Base member via Scott’s recording)

• Legal Outcomes

  • Arrests made for murder plots, state-level charges, illegal possession and movement of firearms, and harboring an undocumented Canadian member—demonstrating the investigative hurdles and wins (24:04).
  • “A lot of those in Georgia got charged through state level...There was a Canadian...absconded illegally...but that's illegal, right?” (24:04, Scott)

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5. Reflections on Law Enforcement & Extremism

[25:24–27:02]

• Evolution of FBI Priorities

  • Since 2020, the FBI's focus and resources for domestic terrorism have reportedly decreased under changes in leadership (25:24).
  • Noted a rise in hate group activity alongside these changes.

• The Need for Vigilance

  • “You got to keep looking, and people have to be vigilant and report. If you see something, say something, and that may put those people on our radar.” (26:12, Scott)
  • Stressed that catastrophic events often precede action, underscoring the importance of ongoing vigilance.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Building Relationships as an Undercover Agent:

  • “The definition, true definition of undercover is building relationships that you're most likely going to betray.” (09:51, Scott)

• On Burnout:

  • “For a three year period...I crashed. And when I say I crashed...I slept over 16 hours a day.” (12:35, Scott)
  • “We're number one for suicide...divorce...alcoholism...” (13:29, Scott)

• On Hate Group Recruitment:

  • “If you're that outsider and you've been bullied, now that's going to add a little bit more to your hate.” (26:12, Scott)

• On the Goals of Accelerationist Groups:

  • “They want to speed [collapse] up by creating chaos...power grid over here goes down, train gets derailed, water system gets poisoned, lefty journalist gets murdered...In an effort to kick off what they refer to...as the boogaloo—a race war.” (14:46, Scott)

• On the Thin Line Between Hate and Crime:

  • “You can't investigate you for your hate...but we're always trying to find them and stop them.” (21:47, Scott)

• Dramatic Moment—The Wire Search:

  • “He starts grabbing that piece of clothing, and he's kneading it with his fingers, and he misses it. I mean, he misses it by a hair.” (07:52, Scott)

• On Motivation for Undercover Work:

  • “It's a calling that you felt and that's what you're doing it for. If not, you probably will wash out because you're definitely not doing it for money.” (14:01, Scott)

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Important Timestamps

• [01:00] Introduction of Scott Payne, background on hate groups.
• [03:11] Scott discusses how he became an undercover officer.
• [06:09-08:14] The Outlaws gang close call, nearly discovered while wired.
• [09:31] Ethics of befriending and betraying targets during undercover work.
• [12:35] Burnout, mental health consequences for agents.
• [14:46] Explanation of accelerationism and recruiting in neo-Nazi groups.
• [17:11-21:21] Harrowing account of the “hate camp” ritual sacrifice.
• [21:47] How law enforcement builds cases against domestic extremists.
• [22:22-24:33] Details of averted mass murder/arson plots and legal strategies.
• [24:59] Recording violent plotting at the Virginia rally.
• [25:24] Discussion of changing FBI priorities and the need for vigilance.

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Closing Thoughts

This episode provides a gripping, detailed first-person account of the dangers, methods, and emotional complexity in the world of undercover counter-extremism work. Scott Payne paints a stark picture of hate groups’ inner workings—while also offering humanizing insights on policing, burnout, and the importance of constant vigilance in the face of domestic extremism.

Find more in Scott’s book Codename Pale Horse and in the podcast series White Hot Hate.

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Transcript

[A]

Hey there, it's Shemitha here. Our team is taking a break over the holidays, so while we're away, we wanted to share an audience favorite from earlier this year. This was actually our most listened to episode of in conversation for 2025. I know. It stuck with me. I hope you enjoy it. This is In Conversation from Apple News. I'm Shemit Sebastu Today, the undercover FBI agent who infiltrated America's neo Nazi group. If you've ever seen photos of modern day militia groups or white supremacist groups, you've probably noticed some common themes among the members. Mostly men, mostly white, in tactical gear with tattoos, bandanas, and patches displaying their beliefs. And if my guest today, Scott Payne, were in one of those photos, you probably wouldn't be able to tell him apart from the rest of them.

[B]

I usually say it jokingly, but I'm like, these are my people. When I say these are my people. I'm not saying a white supremacist group are my people. I'm just saying my skill set and my look and what I do leads me to those kind of cases.

[A]

Scott is a retired FBI agent who spent part of his career undercover in American hate groups. He's out with a new book called Codename How I Went Undercover to Expose America's Nazis. It's a remarkable account not only of his singular career, but also of the many criminal and hate groups that are operating in America today.

[B]

You've got, I'm not gonna say millions, like there's millions of white supremacists and Nazis are gonna be on your doorstep tomorrow, but let's just say that there are thousands and people are still being recruited.

[A]

According to the Southern Poverty Law center, as of 2023, there were 165 active white nationalist groups in the United States, the highest number ever recorded. During Scott's time in the FBI's Joint Terrorism Task Force, he worked several cases inside these groups. In one case, his undercover Persona actually went through the ceremony to become a Ku Klux Klan member. For another, he befriended a young extremist who idolized Dylann Roof, the man who killed nine people in a Charleston church in 2015. In that case, Scott was able to deter his target from committing murder. Scott worked on this book with Canadian journalist Michelle shepherd, who also produced a podcast series about his story.

[B]

I'm a Southern Conservative 64260 tattooed biker guy. And I'm a Christian. I'm a Christ follower. And she's agnostic, she's liberal. If you look on paper, it's almost polar opposites. And she laughs how she was going to capture my voice. But she did good. She did very good.

[A]

Scott's career spans 28 years, and he started by going undercover with organized criminal groups before transitioning into extremist hate groups. I sat down with Scott to hear about his time as an undercover agent, what he learned, and what drew him to this work.

[B]

I started as a cop in South Carolina, and I was a uniform patrol cop for approximately three years. And then I went to vice and narcotics. I made investigator advice and narcotics. So I'm working sources, and I'm going getting certified in undercover techniques at the academy. I'm going to get certified in technical surveillance and things like that. And I start doing some street level drug buyers and, and other things, and I got the bug. I mean, I just, I loved it. But if you're in the county, and that's the only county, you were. I mean, you were inside the county limits. How many times can I shave my facial hair a different way, cut my hair a different way, wear different clothing, drive different cars before everybody knows, you know?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So, yeah, I always thought, wouldn't it be cool if there's a database where everybody who's certified is in there and then maybe far away, it's like, hey, we need somebody who looks like a biker that come here and go to this bar or whatever. That'd be cool. And when I got in the FBI, I knew I wanted to get in the undercover program. I was learning about it and what they did, and that's kind of what you do. You go through the process. If you get through and you get certified and you start finding work, you can pretty much go anywhere.

[A]

What kinds of crimes and investigations require undercover work? Anything, really.

[B]

Yeah, it's not that necessarily the case requires it, but we consider it a sophisticated investigative technique. You're trying to gather evidence of the person breaking the law. And there's plenty of times that you go in and you find out, okay, they're not, they're not breaking the law, they're within their constitutional rights. And then the undercover is over, I'll back out. But I mean, the FBI works everything. There's different squads. So you have a violent crime squad, you have a gang squad, you have a white collar crime squad, you have crimes against children, you have all kinds of things international terrorism, domestic terrorism. So it could be whatever. But again, if we get in there, I mean, I've been five months undercover in a group and I read every post that was in there. Thousands upon thousands upon Thousands of posts for five months. And it is very sad what they were saying. It's very hateful. But it wasn't illegal, right?

[A]

Right. That's not the crime.

[B]

No.

[A]

One of Scott's most memorable cases was when he embedded in a motorcycle gang called the Outlaws. Now, the Outlaws were a tight knit criminal group with many enemies, especially the Hell's Angels. The FBI knew the Outlaws were trafficking stolen goods and committing insurance fraud, but they suspected they were also involved in drug trade. Scott went undercover in the group, and he told me about an incredibly close call that happened about a year into the investigation. It was late November of 2006. Scott was hanging out in the gang's clubhouse in Southern Massachusetts, sipping a Jack and Coke as usual, while when an outlaw who went by the name Clothesline approached him.

[B]

They called me Tex. He's like, hey, Tex, you got a minute? And I'm like, yeah. Well, he walks me into this one door that I'd never been in, and we go down into this tight basement. And I mean, calling it a basement's pretty generous because I couldn't stand up straight.

[A]

Scott knew Clothesline well. They had become real friends, hanging out, doing small stolen goods deals together. But this interaction felt anything but friendly.

[B]

As he walks in front of me, another outlaw comes in behind me. They show me their pistols. I see rope. Everything's closing in. I'm getting that tunnel vision. I'm like, man, what is happening right now? He says, I need you to write down your full name, your date of birth, all this information, and I need you to take all your clothes off because I'm gonna check you for a wire.

[A]

Scott was wearing a wire. And in that moment, scared that he was about to be found out, he couldn't remember his alias, middle name.

[B]

And I'm going through this Rolodex in my mind. I'm like, nope, nope, nope, nope. That's not it. And then I'm like, yeah, that's it. So I write that down, and then I take off all my clothes, and he searches me.

[A]

This whole time. Scott's cover team was in a vehicle nearby, listening in on the wire, which was now in a crumpled heap of clothing on the floor, trying to decide whether to intervene and blow up the case or wait to see if Scott could finesse his way out of the situation.

[B]

I'm still talking. That's kind of what I was trained to do. And I'm trying to still gather intelligence, even though I'm freaking out inside. And he's like, man, trust me, if somebody accused Me of being a fed, I'd probably smash him in the effing mouth. And I'm like, yeah. I said, I'm not happy. And he's like, yeah, I get it, man.

[A]

While this conversation was going on, clothesline grabbed a piece of Scott's clothing, Clothing that had some equipment in it.

[B]

By this time, he's kind of laughing a little bit, and he says, hey, I'm not gonna find anything in here. I don't want to, like some naked pictures of my old lady. And he laughs, and I kind of giggle, but it's not a really giggle, you know, I'm still panicking. And he starts grabbing that piece of clothing, and he's just going over it with his hands, and he's kneading it with his fingers, and he misses it. And, I mean, he misses it by a hair.

[A]

Scott somehow kept his cover.

[B]

And then we go upstairs, and for the rest of the night, I'm just an adrenaline dump. And the thing that a lot of people didn't know or I don't know, there's a lot of training in this. But everybody asked me, what would you have said if he had found it? And my only answers that I had in my head, the first one would have been probably a joke. He would have been like, hey. If he would have said, what is this? I'd have said, I don't know, some naked pictures of the old lady, because he already threw me that bone. But the only other thing I had in my head, and I remember it like it was yesterday, it was. The gig is up. I'm a undercover FBI agent, and I can walk out of here, and we can see each other in court, or all hell's gonna break loose.

[A]

Wow. What does it look like for you to create this Persona that you need to. To successfully go undercover in a group like the Outlaws?

[B]

So for me, as far as undercover stuff goes, I would always stick pretty close to myself. I mean, my name's Scott. That's a common name. So I'm Scott. I may or may not be married. I may or may not have kids, may or not play college ball, things like that. But you can probably bet that I lift weights and ride motorcycles, and I'm still the jovial guy, cracking jokes, doing my thing. The jokes are usually the same, and that's just me.

[A]

I mean, you talk a lot in the book about what it's like to befriend people in groups like this and how the friendships become a tool, really. Can you say a little bit more about that? It Sounds like that is a struggle. It's difficult to feel like you are genuinely gaining trust and knowing that you will need to break that trust. That's part of your goal.

[B]

Yeah. When I'm putting on training or sometimes I just ask people, what does undercover mean to you? What do you think? And you'll get things like, oh, you're acting, you're lying, you're pretending to be somebody else. But in our world, the definition, true definition of undercover is building relationships that you're most likely you're going to betray them. But for me personally, and I'm not saying this is the way to do it at all, but what would happen with me, especially on those long term, deep undercover cases, is I'm bonding with people, then those relationships are pretty legit. And to this day, people I have put in jail, gathered evidence against, they reach out to me or I reach out to them when they're out. And I'm friends, I mean, I am a huge second, third, fourth, fifth chance person. You know, if I didn't get 15 or 20 chances, I wouldn't be where I'm at. And look, I've said it to so many people that I've arrested over my, my 28 year career. I'm like, I'm not saying I think you're a bad person. I'm not saying I even disagree with what you did. What I'm saying is you're an adult and you made a choice to break the law and you got caught. And that's where we're at right now. I committed all kinds of crimes when I was younger. I didn't get arrested. Had I gotten arrested, charged and convicted, I would not be where I'm at. I would not been able to be a cop or an FBI agent. But success story, man, I love them.

[A]

Success stories. Well, how are you defining a success story?

[B]

A success story would be you realize the area of your ways and you're turning yourself around. Or maybe we didn't even arrest you. Maybe we just interviewed you and you almost got wrapped up in the conspiracy, but you didn't. And that was enough to turn you around. And the next thing I know, you find out that they have been saved and they are giving their testimony celebrate recovery for recovered addicts, you know, And I'm like, man, that is. That is awesome.

[A]

Hmm. It's interesting. You say you believe in second and third and fourth chances, and it sort of sounds like these people need to be giving you a second chance too, right? I mean, it's a huge mental turnaround for them to realize some have who you are.

[B]

Yes, some have.

[A]

And some have, you're saying.

[B]

And it warms my heart.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Here recently, I won't get into it because I don't know if that person wants me to say anything, but it warms my heart because. Or just talking. I mean, look, they're like, man, you're just doing your job. And I'm like, hey, man, but that friendship, that was real. You know, when we were out there and we were about to get jumped and you had my back and I had yours, that was legit.

[A]

Wow. You say in your book that at this point in the Outlaws case, you were feeling really burned out. What does burnout look like in the FBI for undercover agents?

[B]

What happened is I had been doing too much for a three year period of my life and I met my threshold. I was going way too hard on myself. I stopped taking care of myself. I'm a workaholic. I get it honestly from my parents. I applied the warrior mentality to every aspect of my life. Just, you know, that whole rub some dirt on it, get back out in the field, put a band aid on it, suck it up. And it's great to have that mentality on a lot of things you do as a first responder, but if you apply it to everything in your life, it could be detrimental. And it was for me. I crashed. And when I say I crashed. I got home from the Outlaws case and I think probably like five days. I slept over 16 hours a day. First two days probably was close to 20. And I wasn't depressed, I wasn't sick. I know what those both feel like. I. I was that tired.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I'll say this since we're on the topic, listen, a lot of people don't know this. First responders, that's police, medical, fire. We throw military in there. Technically not first responders, but military is doing pretty much the same type of stuff. We're number one for suicide. It is crazy how many cops are committing suicide. We're number one for divorce, we're number one for alcoholism. And you can throw pills and other stuff in there now. And I don't know if we're still the top, but we're way up there for dying within five years after retiring.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

It's a pressure cooker. It's a calling. I mean, if you're doing first responder stuff, it's most likely a calling that you felt and that's what you're doing it for. If not, you probably will wash out because you're definitely not doing it for money, you know?

[A]

Right, right. So after that case, after you took some time and you recovered a bit, you moved into another part of the FBI, the Joint Terrorism Task Force, which is in a lot of ways more intense, more extreme than working with groups like the Outlaws. Let's talk about some of these serious white supremacist groups that you've worked inside. It sounds like one of the most volatile ones is the base. You describe them as accelerationists. Can you tell me what that means and what you were assigned to do in that investigation?

[B]

So accelerationists, this is their belief system. They don't believe that there's a political solution to save the white race. They believe that society is going to collapse either on its own or from man made events. And they want to speed that up by creating chaos, doing like guerrilla warfare tactics where it's just small hits like power grid over here goes down, train gets derailed, water system gets poisoned, lefty journalist gets murdered, kind of things like that. In an effort to kick off what they refer to in the base, they refer to it as the boogaloo, which would kind of be the D day where their race wars coming. And all of them that I've infiltrated usually end. Their mindset ends with you getting an ethno state, just all white in the base. I see young guys, I see people who have been bullied. I see that some of them are outcasts. They can't get a partner, they don't have a partner and they just hate. They go to their bedroom and they hop on their phone and they go down the rabbit hole of hate and you can find it. And there's so much out there that's bad. And with AI now there's things that look so real and they're not. But it's just propaganda and trying to recruit.

[A]

So how did you get into the group?

[B]

Well, the base was on an application called Gab and like Telegram and they would post a survivalist group, save your race, join the base. They would attach training videos and things like that. So I emailed and said, hey, I'm, you know, I'm digging what you're doing kind of thing. And we went back and forth for probably a week or so. And then I was instructed to, I mean, I was asked a bunch of questions like my height, weight, ethnicity, how long I've been in the movie, all kinds of things like that. And after that week or so I was instructed to download an application called wire, similar to WhatsApp. I did that as instructed. And then on a Friday evening, I did. It was basically a panel interview with four or five what I counted. Like I could hear the different voices, but it was like a panel interview for an hour and 15 minutes from base members. And then I passed.

[A]

You tell this really harrowing story about a hate camp where there was a ritual sacrifice, there was bible burning. Basically it was all to create a recruitment video. Right. Can you tell me a little bit about that particular instance? It sounds like the goat sacrifice moment really stood out.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, it did. The majority of the base members that I met, really all of them, except maybe one, went with the pagan belief system. That's where they take the Garden of Eden story in the Bible and they twist the living crap out of it to meet the white supremacy belief system. And we had already done some blots. Blot, that's a kind of like a worship ceremony in paganism. And the first couple were led by an actual priest, a Satri priest. But Halloween of 2019, it was going to be a hate camp. Not just for propaganda purposes, but to train. You train on firearms, hand to hand combat, building bunkers in the woods, how to survive off the land, things like that. So Halloween night 2019, we had done a bunch of training, Huge cold front came in. I go to my truck to charge my phone and not out for a couple of minutes. And I wake up to the sound of my window beating. And I was Pale Horse. That was my moniker in the base. And they're like, they're banging on the pale horse. Pale pal, you got to get up. You got to get up. I'm like, well, get up for what? I'm like, what's going on? They're like, man, remember it's talking about a sacrifice. I'm like, yeah. And he goes, we got the goat. And I'm like, so I get out of my truck, I walk around, and they have gone not too far down the road and stolen a ram out of a backyard of somebody's property. We go down to the ceremony, not supposed to bring any weapons, and the guy leading the block says, this is going to be the start of the wild hunt. And the basis Wild hunt ideology or mythology, that was going to be the start of cleaning the world of non whites and lefties and anti fast kind of thing. So we get to the point, he says his whole prayer and then he's like, he has this machete and he's like, we're all in a circle. Pretty much everybody's kneeling. I don't know how I ended up at the back of the goat, but I'm at the back of the goat. I guess it's better than being at the head if you swinging a machete. But so we're sitting there with a goat, and he rares back and he's raring back, he's practicing, you know, and somebody finally says, just do it, man. And he comes down as hard as he can with that machete on the back neck of the the goat. And I'm not sure it broke a hair. I don't know if the blade was not sharp or the backstrap of the goat was so thick, it just went bad, you know? And I'm like, oh, man, I'm back there holding it, and I'm like, this is going to turn bad. There's going to be blood everywhere. This is going to be ravaging. But it didn't happen. And somebody says, hey, does anybody have a pistol? And again, we weren't supposed to bring any weapons down there, but one guy did. That would be the one person that you wouldn't want with a gun. That's the guy that brought the gun. So he hands it over to Eisen, the guy who was leading the blot. And Eisen puts one in the chamber and points towards the head of the goat and then turns his head the opposite way. And that's when my instructor side kind of jumped out. And I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. And he's like, what? I go, man, look at what you're shooting at. We're in a circle.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

I mean, what are we doing here? And then he does. He puts a brown right in the head of the goat, and it kicks for several minutes, and then it stopped moving. And you think it's over? No, it's not over. Then they commence to slicing the throat of the goat. They fill up a cup full of his blood. And in the circle, a lot of members took hits of acid. Several of us didn't. But I'm holding the flashlight for eyes, and he's tearing off tabs of acid, going around putting it in the mouth. And then you're chasing it with the blood as part of the sacrifice. So it gets to me. And by this time, Shamita, I'm looking and I'm going, oh, man, it's all clogging up. It's coagulating. And I'm like, oh, man, I don't want to turn this up. I do not want to turn this up. But I took my finger and I stuck it all the Way down in the blood. Pulled it out, sucked all the blood off my finger and chased it with a beer. Luckily, I had a beer down there, but, yeah, it was. It was not cool. And then they commenced to cutting the entire head off, which we carried around for three more days on photo ops. And it was bad. And. But those are things, like, you got to decide right there. Like, I mean, do I need to stop this? I mean, this is a horrific incident, but is it a federal crime?

[A]

Well, I should ask. I mean, what were you assigned to build a case around with the base? Like, you explain in the book that there's no federal statute for domestic terrorism, and that's why we see you bringing in people on criminal charges. Things like possessions of weapons or drugs. But just the fact that they were speaking hatefully about groups of people or even that they were doing these kinds of rituals like you're describing, that wasn't enough?

[B]

No, no, not enough. We can't investigate you for your hate, but if there's evidence there or reporting that, we get that you could be doing some illegal stuff, planning some nefarious things, you know, we're always trying to find them and stop them. You don't want another Tree of Life massacre. You don't want Christchurch. We don't want any of that. Right, and how do you know, out of all that hate being spewed online, how do you know if there is one that's going to take the next step? That's going to be that shooter or that person that does a massacre? And what ended up happening is, after I gained good trust, I started getting brought in on several murder plots. And we were casing a house of what they believed was an antifa couple. And essentially the finalized plan was going to be the members of the Georgia Cell were going to meet, leave all our electronics at a campsite, go to a pay by the hour motel, scrub ourselves down. And this is their planning. I mean, this is pretty thorough, the research that was done. Go in there, get a loofah or whatever, scrub all the loose skin off our body so we don't leave any DNA. Vaseline on eyebrows, on facial hair, so no hairs fall. Your shirt will be duct taped to your gloves so nothing falls out. Pants to the boots, duct tape. One of the guys, Luke, had done so much research that he had read that a lot of times when somebody murders somebody for the first time, they lose control of their Bible. So he suggested we all wear Depends in case when we murdered these people, we lost control of our bowels. There was all kinds of things like that. And the idea was we would go in the house, murder everything in it. We didn't know if they were kids or dogs. And I'll quote, one of the members of the Georgia sales said, I don't have a problem killing commie kids.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Okay. And then we were going to burn the house down.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And that was the start. Because they'd already started creating a list of liberal journalists. I mean, like, people on tv, like, news. I even said, I'm like, so we're gonna plan on going to kill these people too, because. Yeah. And I said, well, it's a good thing we're doing this family. It'll be a good trial run, you know.

[A]

Wow. So these are people that you were able to end up actually charging with what exactly? With a murder plot.

[B]

Yes. So that a lot of those in Georgia got charged through state level because the state laws were different than the federal, and we could hit them with that kind of thing. Attempted mur. Things like that. There was a Canadian who had absconded illegally into the United States, and he was hiding out in Georgia for a while, and then he ended up going up to Delaware with another cell up there. But that's illegal, right? Harboring and help move an undocumented alien and provide them with firearms. There's all kinds of charges in there.

[A]

In addition to the murder plots Scott was hearing about, he also learned of some base members plans to commit violence at a pro gun rally in Virginia in January of 2020. This is a few years after the Charlottesville white supremacist rally, which for many extremists served as an example of how to sow public chaos. Scott, while undercover, recorded two members of the base as they were planning to, as they put it, get blood on their hands.

[C]

It's just we can't really live with ourselves if we don't get some, like, blood on our hands. Can you really say that you wouldn't just be, like, how bad would you feel if you. If that just, like, all that went on, there was a bat. The Battle of Richmond, and you weren't even there. And you feel like a piece of. Yeah, I would definitely be feeling that.

[B]

You'Re still larping back in your daddy's barn.

[A]

The FBI made a series of arrests in a big takedown that month, preventing the Virginia attack and the planned murders from happening. It was one of Scott's last cases before he was retired in 2021. Today, the FBI's mandate has radically shifted. Under President Trump and Cash Patel, the head of the agency. Earlier this year, Reuters reported that the FBI has reduced staffing and resources in an office focused on domestic terrorism threats. Meanwhile, the Guardian reported an uptick in the base and other neo Nazi groups online activity since Trump took office. I asked Scott for his thoughts on the FBI under Patel. He said he really doesn't know him or how FBI priorities might be shifting, but that the need to be vigilant is more important than ever.

[B]

It's pretty morbid to say it this way, but a lot of times, unfortunately, things don't change until something catastrophic happens. And then when that happens, it's like, holy crap, how did this happen? Like a Charlottesville, how did this happen? We got to start putting more resources to this. And that's what you do. You kind of go where the crime's at. You've got, I'm not going to say millions, like there's millions of white supremacists and Nazis are going to be on your doorstep tomorrow. But let's just say that there are thousands. And people are still being recruited. People are still looking to belong. And especially if you're that outsider and you've been bullied, now that's going to add a little bit more to your hate. We have to stay vigilant. You got to keep looking, and people have to be vigilant and report. If you see something, say something, and that may put those people on our radar.

[A]

Scott, thank you so much for your time. I feel like I could have talked to you for another hour and just listened to some more stories from your life, but they're really fascinating and I appreciate you writing about them.

[B]

Thank you. I appreciate you.

[A]

You can find Scott Payne's memoir, codename Pale Horse, on Apple Books and the podcast White Hot Hate, featuring his story on Apple Podcasts. And every weekend, you can find new episodes of Apple News in conversation in the Apple News app. Just tap on the audio tab, that's the little headphones at the bottom to find.