Rebroadcast: Should you cut ties with a family member? A therapist offers advice.

Summary

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Apple News Today – Rebroadcast: Should You Cut Ties with a Family Member? A Therapist Offers Advice

Date: November 28, 2025
Host: Shamita Basu
Guest: Dr. Joshua Coleman, Therapist and Author

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Episode Overview

This episode revisits the complex topic of family estrangement: why it’s becoming more common, when it might be necessary, and how families might heal divides. As the holiday season brings familial relationships into focus—sometimes highlighting both closeness and deep rifts—host Shamita Basu consults therapist and author Dr. Joshua Coleman, who specializes in estrangement, to discuss research, personal experience, listener stories, and practical strategies for reconciliation.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Estrangement Is Increasing—And It's Complicated (00:00–02:39)

• Estrangement Frequency: Over one quarter of Americans report being estranged from at least one family member (YouGov, 2022).
• Listener Stories: Multiple callers share reasons for estrangement, including abuse, intergenerational trauma, politics, addiction, and shifting definitions of harm.
  • “[Estrangement] has created fissures in my family that are beyond repair.” – Kevin (01:49)
  • “I feel a lot of longing for a family that really accepts and understands me.” – Bria Paley (02:04)

2. Changing Definitions of Harm (02:39–02:58; 19:01–20:17)

• Dr. Coleman: Notes how the definition of abusive or harmful parenting has expanded over time, creating lower thresholds for what counts as trauma or abuse, especially among younger generations.
  • “There’s been this enormous expansion over what we label as harmful, abusive, traumatizing, neglectful behavior.” – Josh Coleman (02:39 / 19:05)
• Concept Creep: Cites psychologist Nick Haslam’s research about “concept creep,” demonstrating shifting societal attitudes around harm and neglect.

3. Personal Story—Dr. Coleman’s Own Estrangement & Reconciliation (02:58–04:49)

• Background: Dr. Coleman shares he was estranged from his daughter in her 20s due to family restructuring after his remarriage and his defensive, unreceptive response to her feelings.
• Turning Point: Change began when he became “more empathic and understanding,” took responsibility, and validated her perspective.
  • “It really wasn’t until over time, I figured that I really needed to stop doing what I was doing.” – Josh Coleman (03:49)
• Motivation for Work: Realized a lack of resources led him to focus his practice and writing on family estrangement.

4. Common Causes of Estrangement (05:40–07:40)

• Main Pathways:
  • Divorce: Most common; can foster loyalty splits, alienation, and competition for affection/resources.
  • Marriage: New spouses can become dividing lines if there’s a forced choice between partner and parents.
  • Over-closeness: Some cut contact to assert independence from emotionally enmeshed parents.
• Not Only Abuse: Challenges the widespread belief that only abusive parents are estranged; loving parents can be cut off unjustly.
  • “There’s a lot of good, loving, decent, hardworking parents now who are being cut off...” (07:27)

5. Therapy's Evolving Role—Are We Too Quick to Cut Off? (04:49–05:40; 07:40–09:51; 27:55–28:37)

• Therapist Cautions: Critiques therapeutic culture for sometimes pushing boundaries, cutoff, or pathologizing parents without seeing both sides.
  • “One of the problems that I think therapists make today is they diagnose parents who they have no relationship with.” (08:33)
• Societal Shift: Therapy is more accepting of detachment, sometimes promoting estrangement as self-care—even when repair might be possible.
  • “Therapists have become what the sociologist Alison Pugh refers to as detachment brokers...” (27:55)

6. When Is Estrangement Justified vs. When to Repair? (07:40–09:51; 14:22–15:31)

• Dr. Coleman: Not “anti-estrangement”; recognizes some relationships are truly damaging and should not be repaired. However, urges care as estrangement “is a cataclysmic event for the family system and therefore for the society at large.”
• Therapists and families must distinguish between truly necessary cutoffs (safety, ongoing harm) and difficult-but-healable rifts.

7. Politics, Identity, and Values: The New Battlegrounds (09:51–14:49)

• Listener: Kevin’s Story (10:37–11:27): Describes political estrangement from evangelical family over their support for Trump and policies at odds with his values.
  • “I need to know. I need them to explain themselves if we’re going to have a path forward...” – Kevin (11:21)
• Dr. Coleman’s Advice: Prioritize curiosity over confrontation; proactively set boundaries for discussion topics at gatherings.
  • “People are more receptive to our perspective if we can start off by being truly curious about their perspective.” (11:46)
  • Shares his own family approach: “I love you, I’m glad you’re my brother, but I just can’t go there...” (13:22)

8. The Dilemma of What’s Worth Preserving (14:22–15:31)

• Host and guest discuss when it’s necessary—or even possible—to “compartmentalize” core values for family harmony.
  • “Is it worth it? Does it make sense to show up to the family gathering and compartmentalize all these things...” – Shamita Basu (14:28)
• Some cut ties when harm outweighs any remaining family benefit, especially around constant shaming or rejection of identity.

9. Estrangement Ripple Effects—Divorce, Grandchildren, and Multigenerational Ties (15:38–18:14)

• Caller Lyssa: Estranged from son who resents her remaining in contact with his ex-wife for access to grandchildren.
  • “Her devil’s bargain is she can either have contact with her grandchildren and alienate her son, or... lose contact with her son.” – Josh Coleman (16:40)
• Wider Impacts: Grandparents may lose connection to grandkids; some find redemption as grandparents even after difficult parenting years, but this can also provoke jealousy in adult children.

10. Navigating the Gray Area: Conflict vs. Abuse (18:14–20:17)

• Discusses the continuum between typical conflict and genuine abuse, and how these lines are drawn differently by generations.
  • “We have a lot of cultural confusion between what’s conflict and what’s abuse...” (19:01)
• Suggests parents acknowledge possible blind spots and express willingness to learn or seek therapy.

11. The Challenge of Acknowledgment and Apology (20:17–22:19)

• Difficulty for Parents: It’s emotionally hard for parents to accept their child’s hurt, especially if they believe they did better than their own parents.
  • “I gave you a childhood I would have killed to have.” (20:55)
  • “There’s really no pathway back to your adult child... if that’s their feeling…” (22:00)

12. When Adult Children Feel "Stuck" Waiting for Parents to Reach Out (22:19–24:31)

• Caller Jackie: Wants reconciliation but feels paralyzed, waiting for her father to initiate.
  • “There’s a part of me that wants him to rise to the occasion... I feel really stuck.” – Jackie (22:48)
• Dr. Coleman: Advises that some parents may lack emotional tools, especially in older generations; sometimes children must take the first step if reconciliation is the goal.

13. Cultural Perspectives on Estrangement (24:31–26:11)

• In some cultures, estrangement is taboo and family ties are considered non-negotiable.
• Immigrant parents may be bewildered or wounded by American norms around therapy and emotional language.
  • “If you want to have a relationship with them, it does mean learning this new language...” (25:49)

14. Practical Strategies for Repair (26:49–27:47)

• Lead with Vulnerability: Reconciliation hinges on curiosity, openness, and taking responsibility for harm.
  • “Communication goes best if we lead with our own vulnerability.” (26:49)
  • Advice: Begin conversations with “I’m open to hearing that there are things I do or say that hurt you…”

15. Does Estrangement Really Lead to Happiness? (28:37–29:02)

• Questions the societal narrative that prioritizing personal happiness via disconnection actually results in contentment.
  • “We have record high rates of mental illness in this country and loneliness and atomization and social isolation. And, no, we don’t seem to be a lot happier. So it’s not really working, is it?” – Josh Coleman (28:48)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Estrangement is a cataclysmic event for the family system and therefore for the society at large.”
  – Josh Coleman (08:25)

• “There’s a lot of good, loving, decent, hardworking parents now who are being cut off and being told that they’re being cut off because they’re abusive and destructive when it’s just simply not the case.”
  – Josh Coleman (07:27)

• “People are more receptive to our perspective if we can start off by being truly curious about their perspective.”
  – Josh Coleman (11:46)

• “Is it worth it? Does it make sense to show up to the family gathering and compartmentalize all these things that are, you know, very closely tied to my identity or my values and put them on the shelf?”
  – Shamita Basu (14:28)

• “There’s really no pathway back to your adult child... if that’s their feeling or even if it’s at odds with your own.”
  – Josh Coleman (22:00)

• “Therapists have become... detachment brokers, which means that therapists often help people to not feel guilty or bad about cutting off family members that in prior generations would have considered and other cultures would have considered to be the wrong thing to do.”
  – Josh Coleman (27:59)

• “We have record high rates of mental illness in this country and loneliness and atomization and social isolation. And, no, we don’t seem to be a lot happier. So it’s not really working, is it?”
  – Josh Coleman (28:48)

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Time-Stamped Segment Highlights

• 00:00–02:39 – Introduction, prevalence of estrangement, and listener voicemails.
• 02:39–04:49 – Dr. Coleman's personal story; shifts in definitions of harm.
• 05:40–07:40 – Pathways to estrangement beyond abuse.
• 09:51–14:49 – Political differences, proactive boundaries, deciding what’s worth preserving.
• 15:38–18:14 – Divorce fallout, grandparent-child relationships post-estrangement.
• 18:14–20:17 – Cultural/generational divides over “abuse” vs. “conflict.”
• 22:35–24:31 – Adult children waiting for parents to initiate repair.
• 24:31–26:11 – The impact of cultural background on views of estrangement.
• 26:49–27:47 – Constructing conversations leading with vulnerability.
• 27:55–29:02 – Societal consequences and the myth of happiness after estrangement.

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Conclusion

The episode provides a nuanced, empathetic investigation into why family estrangement happens, its emotional and societal toll, and how families might break through impasses. Dr. Coleman underscores the need for vulnerability, empathy, and open dialogue—and cautions against rushing to sever ties rather than seeking understanding. Ultimately, the conversation encourages listeners to carefully weigh the costs and benefits of estrangement and offers practical advice for those hoping to reconcile, particularly during emotionally charged holiday seasons.

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For further information, Dr. Coleman’s book The Rules of Why Adult Children Cut Contact and How to Heal the Conflict is available on Apple Books. Listener stories and resources are linked in the show notes.

Transcript

[Shamita Basu]

Hey there. This week, many of us have been gathering with family and we'll have more get togethers in the weeks ahead, which can be wonderful but also kind of complicated, especially if some of those relationships feel strained. So we're bringing you this episode from our archive, all about navigating those tougher family dynamics. I hope you enjoy it. This is in conversation from Apple News. I'm Shamita Basu. Today why more families are estranged than ever and how to heal the divide. With all of the end of the year holidays approaching, it's a time when many of us are reminded of the strained, sometimes estranged relationships we have with our family. A 2022 survey from YouGov showed that over one quarter of Americans said they're estranged from at least one family member, including parents, children, siblings and grandparents. It happens for all sorts of reasons, although this year, after a particularly divisive election season, some of those tensions are ratcheted up even higher. We asked listeners to tell us your stories about estrangement in your families. And we were overwhelmed with calls.

[Josh Coleman]

Hi, my name is Stephanie. My name is Eddie Gonzalez.

[Bria Paley]

My name's Bria Paley from Queens, New.

[Kevin]

York City, Winston Salem, North Carolina, Orange.

[Josh Coleman]

County, California, Philadelphia Penns.

[Bria Paley]

And I'm estranged from my mother, my sister and my bro.

[Josh Coleman]

I haven't spoken to my stepfather in almost 10 years.

[Shamita Basu]

I've had to go non contact with my mother.

[Josh Coleman]

Lots of things that attributed to me cutting him out of my life.

[Bria Paley]

Intergenerational trauma, a narcissist.

[Jackie]

There was alcohol involved, politics or climate.

[Josh Coleman]

Change, verbal abuse, some physical abuse.

[Kevin]

It has created fissures in my family that are beyond repair.

[Josh Coleman]

I live less than a mile away.

[Lyssa]

From her and don't know the children.

[Shamita Basu]

They try to reach out to me, but I am much happier without talking to them.

[Bria Paley]

I feel a lot of longing for a family that really accepts and understands me and I really wish that something would shift.

[Shamita Basu]

As you can hear, some of you said estrangement is working for you, that you feel better going no contact. But so many said some version of I'm sad that things are this way and I wish they were better. So I wanted to talk to an expert who could offer some advice on how to heal difficult family relationships. Josh Coleman is a therapist and a researcher who specializes in working with estranged families. I asked him why we're seeing this happen more and more.

[Josh Coleman]

Over the past three or four decades, there's been this enormous expansion over what we label as harmful, abusive, traumatizing, neglectful behavior. So one of the things that I See a lot is that younger generations, you know, have been raised with the concepts of a much sort of lower threshold, for better or for worse, about what constitutes those things.

[Shamita Basu]

Josh has written a book called the Rules of why Adult Children Cut Contact and How to Heal the Conflict. In it, he lays out some of the findings from his survey of over 1600 estranged parents. And for Josh, it's not just his research specialty, it's also personal. He says for a number of years, he was estranged from his daughter.

[Josh Coleman]

There was a period of time in her early 20s where she cut off contact with me as a result of my becoming remarried and having twins from my second, which is my current marriage, of married many years, but in many ways feeling displaced, and that she didn't really get to have kind of the same quality of childhood or family that my sons had. And when she wanted to begin to talk about it in her early 20s, I wasn't really as receptive as I needed to be. I was probably more defensive and maybe even angry. As a result, it kind of alienated her even further till she really wasn't talking to me for a significant period of time. And that was easily the most heartbreaking, scary thing I've ever been through or hoped to go through again. And at the time, there really wasn't anything written to guide me. And the therapist who I was in therapy with, who was wise in all other manners, wasn't really very experienced in this regard, and his advice wasn't very useful. So it really wasn't until over time, I figured that I really needed to stop doing what I was doing. And on being just more empathic and understanding and taking responsibility and finding the kernel, if not the bushel of truth in her complaints and her perspectives, that thing began to shift, and we eventually reconciled. And then I realized, well, I'm a psychologist and author. There's nothing written on this topic. So I wrote my first book that in 2007, and now it's the only thing I'm doing in my practice because the demand is so high.

[Shamita Basu]

Can I ask, just to go back, you mentioned that you were seeing a therapist at the time that your daughter decided that she didn't want to be in contact with you. What was the. I don't mean to call it bad advice, but what was the advice that you got at the time that you felt was just. Was not helping?

[Josh Coleman]

You know, I think it's the advice that I hear a lot of therapists wrongly giving to estranged parents as well. You need to set limits. You need to set Boundaries, you need to emphasize respect. You need to remind her of all the good things that you did. Or you need to just show up on her doorstep and demand that she talk to you. Or the advice of, oh, she'll be back, don't worry about it, it's just a ph. She'll grow out of it. And you know, kids don't necessarily grow out of it if they've rejected the parent. There's something about the relationship that really bothers them that has to be addressed very directly.

[Shamita Basu]

I know that you look at this parent child dynamic very closely, but there are many different types of estrangements in families. What are some of the common reasons that you see estrangement happening?

[Josh Coleman]

The most common pathway that I see, and my research bears this out, is a divorce on the part of the parents. Because divorce can increase the risk of estrangement a number of different ways. It can cause one parent to poison the child against the other parent, whether the children are young or grown. It may bring in new people into the child's life when they're younger or older that the child has to compete with for emotional or financial resources. It can cause the child independently to ally with one parent over the other. So divorce is really huge, but it's not the only. Another risk is when the adult child marries. And if the parents don't like the new spouse or the spouse doesn't like the parents, and if that spouse says to the adult child, choose them or me, you can't have both, that can be a pathway. And finally, and kind of ironically, for some adult children, it's just a way to feel separate from parents that in some ways they might have felt too close to or too dependent on, and they don't know any other way to feel separate from them than to cut off contact. I've heard more than one adult daughter say, you know, I just have to cut my mother off because I can't get her voice out of my head. And it's not necessarily a critical voice. It could be an anxious voice, it could be a guilty voice. It could be a voice of the mother's own suffering. So the pathways to estrangement are many and varied. And I think it's important to highlight because I think in our society right now, you know, we're sort of flooded with first person essays about abusive parents and people cutting off parents because of childhood abuse. And those certainly exist, but it sort of gives the impression that only abusive parents are being estranged. There's a lot of good, loving, decent, hardworking parents now who are being cut off and being told that they're being cut off because they're abusive and destructive when it's just simply not the case.

[Shamita Basu]

Let's talk more about that because I guess I would describe that as maybe a newer school of thought, or at least just more popular right now. Right. That leans toward estrangement as a solution for difficult family dynamics and that it should be okay to prioritize your own well being and mental health by cutting that other person off. It sounds like what you're saying is that you prioritize communicating and having a relationship over estrangement when possible. How do you distinguish what scenarios warrant estrangement versus opening that relationship up and working hard to make sure that there is one.

[Josh Coleman]

Well, before I answer that, I just want to emphasize that I'm not anti estrangement. It isn't like I think there's never a place for it. And I have worked with both adult children and in families where I've said unless the parents can really change, I can't really support a reconciliation because the parent is being too destructive to the child's adult child's well being. But even in those cases, as a society, we have to face that estrangement is a cataclysmic event for the family system and therefore for the society at large. One of the problems that I think therapists make today is they diagnose parents who they have no relationship with. So, oh, your parents are narcissists or they're a borderline. I know that therapists are doing this because I see letters every day, you know, from adult children saying, well, I learned in therapy that my mom's a narcissist, so I shouldn't engage in family therapy with you because narcissists can't change. But your therapist has no business diagnosing your mother if she hasn't met her. So I will always, if I'm working just with a parent, I will always offer to talk to the adult child to get their perspective, because sometimes the perspective of the parent is completely skewed. And I think it's good for therapists to be willing to talk to the parents and not only get their perspective, but help them to understand why their adult child feels like it's in their best interest to cut off the parent. And I always tell parents, for example, if they're writing a letter to the adult child or trying to reach out to them for reconciliation, to start the letter by saying, I know you wouldn't do this unless it was the healthiest thing for you to do, because that's what it feels like to the adult child, and that's where parents have to start.

[Shamita Basu]

Well, let's listen to some calls. We asked our listeners to share with us some of their stories of how they're navigating disagreements with their families. And within hours, we had two dozen calls. Yeah, I'm sure you're not surprised, so maybe we can listen to a few of those. Let's start with Kevin. He's from Houston. He grew up as a conservative evangelical Christian, served as a minister. He says that he still carries those values, but in 2016, he was really shocked and felt, frankly, a little betrayed when his religious community and his family threw their support behind Donald Trump. And he says over the years, it has just felt harder and harder for him to make peace with it. So let's listen to a little bit of Kevin.

[Kevin]

I can kind of excuse 2016 to know what they're getting into. I could maybe understand 2020 was a bit harder. But after January 6th, after everything that's been said, after Project 2025 became clear, this is a line too far. And I don't know that I can sit across the table or call someone family who wants to deport my neighbors, wants to take away rights from LGBTQ people, wants to disenfranchise people of color and roll back civil rights and women's rights. It is too much at stake to just pretend like everything's okay. And I need to know. I need them to explain themselves if we're going to have a path forward, because without a valid explanation that maybe they just didn't understand what was happening, I don't know where we can go from here.

[Shamita Basu]

Yeah, this is a really big one. And we heard from people on different ends of the political spectrum who are feeling this way. Clearly, Kevin here is saying he wants to find a path forward. He just doesn't know how. What do you say to a person in Kevin's position?

[Josh Coleman]

Yeah, well, I'm glad to hear that you want to find a path forward. I mean, I think that those are difficult conversations. And in general, people are more receptive to our perspective if we can start off by being truly curious about their perspective. And I get why that would be really challenging to do if your family's so at odds with your own political and other kinds of beliefs and sentiments. I do get why people have such powerful feelings about this. I have powerful feelings about it, frankly, as well. My wish is that people find ways to agree, to disagree or to be respectful about differences in Ways where they're being sensitive to the ways that their political views are hurtful or destructive to the other person's well being and to not go there, that it's an act of love to not say what you're thinking or feeling, particularly if that's really destructive or threatening to the other person's psychology.

[Shamita Basu]

Yeah. I mean, let's play this out how it goes for so many folks, right? You show up at the family gathering, you have different political views. Even if you go in there saying, we're not gonna bring up politics, we're not gonna bring up politics, somebody else does, and then you're in the middle of a shouting match, I mean, help people feel like they know what to do when they even enter the room. What should people be thinking about?

[Josh Coleman]

Well, I think being proactive can help. You know, you might say, look, I think we've had political differences in the past and it hasn't gone well. For example, I have a. My younger brother is a conspiracy theorist and he's a self admitted and he's proud of it. So I'm allowed to talk about that in the public realm. And we used to get into big fights about it. And he'd say, I'm gonna send you these videos from like whoever. And I'd say, well, I'm gonna send you articles that are based on research. And of course he wouldn't read them and we'd fight. And then eventually it's kind of like at this point I said, look, I love you, I'm glad you're my brother, but I just can't go there. And if you start to go there, I'm ending the conversation. And I've had to do that. And now he' and do that. So kind of having some ground rules before you get together saying, look, these conversations have not gone well. If you start to go there, I'm either going to walk out of the room or maybe even leave the house. If it gets really aggressive like it has in the past, it's just not worth it to me. I love you. There's a lot of our relationship that I want to preserve, but this is not the pathway to doing it. And then if you're in the situation and the person is starting to get super provocative or name calling, you can say, look, you either are going to have a calm conversation about this where we can agree to disagree or I'm not going there. It just doesn't feel good and it can't. Maybe it feels good to you, but it doesn't to me.

[Shamita Basu]

I Think this is where a lot of people run up against the question, like, what is worth preserving here?

[Josh Coleman]

Yeah.

[Shamita Basu]

Is it worth it? Does it make sense to show up to the family gathering and compartmentalize all these things that I think are so important that are, you know, very closely tied to my identity or my values and put them on the shelf.

[Josh Coleman]

Right.

[Shamita Basu]

And not touch them for the family gathering and pick them up on my way out? I think people struggle with that idea. Really, Truly.

[Josh Coleman]

Oh, no, I don't disagree with you. I think they do. And depending on how close it hits to home and how responsible or irresponsible people are in their communication, I'm sympathetic to it. There are cases where, let's say, the parent is so humiliating and shaming around the adult child's gender identity or sexuality or who they've chosen as a romantic partner, and every time they're around them, they just are so critical and hostile. It's hard to encourage somebody to keep having a relationship with somebody who's so destructive to their psychological well being and mental health. So that's certainly a case where it would be an estrangement would be understandable.

[Shamita Basu]

Let's listen to another caller. This is Lyssa from Portland, Oregon, and I'll let her tell her story.

[Lyssa]

This holiday season is going to be difficult for us. My youngest son, who's 36, recently gone through a divorce, is not speaking to us because my husband and I are still in contact with his ex, as she is the mother of three of our grandchildren. Because we are communicating with her, it's our understanding he's not speaking to us, I guess feeling like we're taking sides when that's not the case at all. We want to see our grandchildren, and since she is the main provider, that's who we have contact with. So this holiday is going to be different because my son does not want to be in the same room with his ex.

[Shamita Basu]

So Lyssa is describing something that you've referred to also, Josh, which is the knock on effects of divorce. Right. The ripple effects, how it impacts other people in the family. What does Lissa's story bring up for you?

[Josh Coleman]

Well, I think so many people are in this kind of devil's bargain. I mean, her devil's bargain is she can either have contact with her grandchildren and alienate her son by the fact that she's seeing his ex, or she can not do that and potentially have contact with her son. Yeah, I think one of the great tragedies of this estrangement, I call it a silent epidemic. That we're engaged in is that when an adult child cuts off contact with the parent, they typically deny access to the grandchildren, which is tragic for as far as I'm concerned, everybody involved. So this idea that if it's not good for me, it's not good for my children. I mean, sure, if the grandparents coming into your house and screaming and is an out of control, raging alcoholic or addict and is breaking things, then yeah, it's not good for your mental health and that's bad for your children. But otherwise there's kind of a conflation of happiness there. And in our society, one's own personal happiness is considered sort of the compass upon which all relationships should be. But that's not always the case. You know, a lot of times there are parents who weren't great parents themselves, but actually are wonderful grandparents. And it provides them a way to heal the ways that they know that they weren't particularly good parents and also allows the potential to heal their relationship with their adult child, for their adult child to see that they're providing something to their own children that they couldn't provide to them. On the other hand, that can also be a source of jealousy for the adult child. Kind of like, oh, you can give it to my kids, but you couldn't give it to me. Where were you when I needed them?

[Shamita Basu]

Yeah, sure, sure. I mean, I think what I'm hearing you describe is a sort of a sort of range, a sort of continuum of what is considered abusive behavior. And I think for a lot of us it's clear what's very abusive and should not be tolerated. I think there's just this huge area in between though, right, where people are really. I see, and I know in my own personal life of talking to friends about this, that people really struggle with understanding how to place certain behaviors anywhere else along that continuum and say either this is not OK and shouldn't be tolerated, or hey, doesn't everyone have a hard relationship with their fill in the blank family member? And then when kids enter the equation, it becomes a lot tougher to decide where to draw that line. I mean, how do you coach people through thinking about this?

[Josh Coleman]

No, it's a really important point. I think we have a lot of cultural confusion between what's conflict and what's abuse, what constitutes abuse? There was a study by the Australian psychologist Nick Haslam a few years ago. His idea is concept creep. And what Haslam found was that over the past three or four decades there's been this enormous expansion over what we label as Harmful, abusive, traumatizing, neglectful behavior. And that's based on the studies of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual and how that's evolved over time. So one of the things that I see a lot in conversations between adult children and parents is that younger generations have been raised with the concepts of a much sort of lower threshold, for better or for worse, about what constitutes those things, whereas parents were raised in an era where those things just weren't labeled as emotional abuse or trauma or harm or neglect. So a lot of my work is often helping parents kind of code switch or really understand why their adult children are saying this is emotional abuse. And I tell parents to say, well, it's clear that I have significant blind spots that I wasn't or whether that felt emotionally abusive. But I'm glad that you let me know. It's something I'm happy to work on either in my own therapy or in family therapy together, if you're open to it. And I'm really sorry that my behavior felt that way to you.

[Shamita Basu]

What's some of the pushback that you get from people when you coach them to say that? Because that's a difficult place to arrive. And I read it. In your book, you tell the story of two parents who are speaking with you. And the dad seems really sort of hardheaded and set in his ways. And the mother's a little soft spoken and sort of sounds like she's heard it all before play out. And you're encouraging him to arrive at a place of saying to their kid, I recognize how you must be feeling, and I apologize. I think that's not an easy place to arrive.

[Josh Coleman]

It's not. And it's a particularly hard place for parents who did a much better job than their own parents did with them. And a lot of these parents will say, emotional abuse, what are you talking about? I gave you a childhood I would have killed to have. In many cases, that's true. It just doesn't really matter if the child grew up feeling emotionally abused or has learned in therapy that the parent's behavior should be labeled as emotionally abusive or abusive in any other way. That's their psychology and that's their reality. So, yes, it is very hard for some parents to go there, either because of the disparity between their own childhood experiences and experiences that they provided their child or their ideas about what constitutes abuse, but also because it's just really painful for any parent to accept that they hurt their child. I think for all parents, particularly parents who really vowed to be better parents than were but it's humiliating. And you know, when I had to do it with my own daughter, it wasn't like that. I mean, it probably took me a while to arrive there just because, you know, I just hated hearing that I'd hurt her or that she felt, you know, neglected in certain ways when she was young. It's a terrible thing for a parent to have to face and acknowledge, but there's really no pathway back to your adult child if they've cut off contact, if that's their feeling, or even if it's at odds with your own. So yes, it is very hard. But I think for those parents who can do it, many of the adult children feel grateful based on the letters I get every day in my email.

[Shamita Basu]

Let's listen to another caller who reached out to us. This is Jackie, who told us that she wants to repair her relationship with her estranged father, but she wants and really needs for him to be the one to initiate the reconciliation. Let's hear her.

[Jackie]

I've been going through something with my dad over the past five or so years, and I know what has to be done in order for us to have a relationship. But there's a part of me that wants him to rise to the occasion. And I feel like if that happens, I'll be waiting forever. And I see him aging and, and I know that time is short, but I feel really stuck.

[Shamita Basu]

What are you hearing there with Jackie?

[Josh Coleman]

Well, I'm very sympathetic to it, I think. You know, I mean, what she's saying is what I think most adult children feel, which is that if a repair is going to happen, it's probably going to happen because of the parents initiation. And I tell parents the same thing, those who resist it. I mean, sometimes parents say to me, well, they can reach out to me. And I'm like, well, are they reaching out to you? Because they're not, you know, from the adult child's perspective, they wouldn't be estranged unless they felt like it was working for them or better for them. But I think it's useful for her to think about it from the perspective that, you know, her dad just may not have the tools and it's not his fault. I'm not giving him a pass. But, you know, parents, particularly of older generations don't have the same kind of communication tools or they don't have sort of the, you know, the cultural experience of that. Parents should reach out and apologize to their children or make amends or be so psychological. So in some ways it's not their fault if they can't make the move. So I think if a reconciliation is your goal, Jack is speaking directly to you. You might just want to give him a pass on that with the idea. That doesn't mean that you're really forgiving him prematurely or you're even saying whatever ways you felt mistreated by him are acceptable. You're just trying to open up the door to a dialogue where he can do a better job because he clearly doesn't. Doesn't know how to do a better job with you.

[Shamita Basu]

Well, I'm going to add another layer to this, which is that there's a cultural element to all of this as well. I mean, I have immigrant parents, and I'll tell you, in both of their different cultures, estrangement is just not considered an acceptable thing. And I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it's like you are obligated to your family no matter what. How do you talk about this with people who are living with this in the context of their culture where estrangement isn't acceptable, but neither is openly talking about it?

[Josh Coleman]

Well, yeah, I mean, I think, you know, say, for example, south and East Asian families, parents are particularly confused by that. Cause not only is it a betrayal of them as parents, which is what any parent feels, but it's also like, this isn't, you know, and particularly parents who sacrificed everything to bring their children to the United States or to raise children in the United States, for them, it was like, this is like the golden crown I'm giving you. And you're rejecting me because you said I was emotional. And often that what gets labeled as emotional abuse is often a much more strict idea around achievement and grades and respect for one's parents. And for them, it's like, that's just how we were raised and how you should have been raised. But the adult child is now in therapy or who has peers who are learning about what's considered emotional abuse, come back to the parents and say that. And that conversation typically doesn't go well. Enormous empathy for them. But I also say, unfortunately, your child is being raised here and has these values, and that's the milieu that they're growing up in. So if you want to have a relationship with them, it does mean learning this new language that I understand in some ways may feel very foreign to the language that you were raised in.

[Shamita Basu]

Yeah, I mean, we are approaching Thanksgiving and all of the end of the year holidays and all the family gatherings that come with it. I'm already hearing from folks in my life Things that are not going well, anxieties, real concerns about how those gatherings might go, broken plans already among some people. But what if you are. What if you're really feeling like you want to have better communication with somebody? Maybe it's not going to happen at one of these family gatherings, but you are trying to repair a relationship to some degree. What's your advice to people who are trying to think through how to do this?

[Josh Coleman]

That, I mean, in general, communication goes best if we lead with our own vulnerability. You know, if you have conflict, ongoing conflict with somebody that you love, just start by saying, I'm open to hearing clearly. There are things that I do or say that are hard for you or that are triggering to you. And I am open to working on that and getting feedback about that, or us to have a conversation about what we both would like the other to work on. If you'd like to go first, I'm happy to do it. So kind of modeling good communication, showing curiosity, being empathic, taking responsibility, saying, I know that when I do X, you feel Y or I know in the past I've acted like this and that was hard for you, and I'm really sorry. So leading with vulnerability and openness and curiosity and empathy are really the key ingredients because they're the only thing that are going to produce a good conversation. Being critical, being defensive, being hostile, they just evoke the same in the other person and cause them to shut down.

[Shamita Basu]

Josh, is there anything that I haven't asked you about that you think is important for people to keep in mind?

[Josh Coleman]

No, I mean, I just wanted to say one more thing about therapy because on the one hand, I am a therapist and think that in large part our field does enormous good. But I do think that therapists have become what the sociologist Alison Pugh refers to as detachment brokers, which means that therapists often help people to not feel guilty or bad about cutting off family members that in prior generations would have considered and other cultures would have considered to be the wrong thing to do, that therapists don't live outside of our culture of individualism, which prioritizes the happiness and well being of the individual and it's not so oriented to the rest of the family.

[Shamita Basu]

That's really interesting. It's fascinating to hear your take on that. If you've created a sort of happy little island. Is that the goal? Is that the end goal of what this process is supposed to bear out?

[Josh Coleman]

Well, right. And are we happy? I mean, we have record high rates of mental illness in this country and loneliness an atomization and social isolation. And, no, we don't seem to be a lot happier. So it's not really working, is it?

[Shamita Basu]

Yeah. Yeah. Josh, thank you so much for your time. I appreciate it.

[Josh Coleman]

Yeah. Thank you for having me. It was a great conversation.

[Shamita Basu]

Josh Coleman is the author of the Rule Rules of why Adult Children Cut Contact and How to Heal the Conflict. You can find it on Apple Books. We'll link to it on our Show Notes page. And I just want to say a special thank you to everyone who called in to share their personal stories with us. We really appreciate it.