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Samin Nosrat doesn’t love Thanksgiving food. Here’s what she says will improve it.
00:29:38
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- [00:01]
A
Hi there, it's Jamitha here. Before we get into today's episode, we have a question for you. What was your favorite piece of art or culture from this year? We're working on an episode all about 2025's best TV, films, music, books and more. And we want to know the one thing you would recommend to your fellow listeners as a must read, watch or Listen. Use your iPhone's Voice Memos app to record yourself. Just tell us your name, where you're from and your recommendation. And please try to keep it to about a minute or less.
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B
You can.
- [00:31]
A
You can send it to us@inconversationpple.com again that's inconversationpple.com and we might include your voice on the show. Thanks. This is in conversation from Apple News. I'm Shemitah Basu. Today, Samin Nosrat on her new book, New Traditions and how to do Thanksgiving without Stress. It's hard to overstate the culture shift that came from Samin Nosrat's best selling cookbook, Salt, Fat Acid Heat. In it, the chef and writer laid out these four cornerstones of cooking and made the argument that anyone can cook well if they understand how these elements work together. It was a cookbook in part about breaking free from the recipe and following your senses.
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B
I knew that if I did it right that those four elements would become part of the vernacular. And they have, which is so awesome.
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A
When the book came out in 2017, followed by the Netflix series she hosted, its almost overnight success catapulted Samin from being known in food circles to being known just about everywhere.
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B
It really got so much bigger than I ever could have dreamed of, which was wonderful. It was such a cool ride to be on. But I think on some very, very deep level, like a subconscious level, I hoped that maybe achieving greatness would fix something that was really sad and lonely inside of me.
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A
As she wrestled with these conflicting feelings of excitement and deep loneliness, the pandemic hit and she experienced personal losses, including the death of her father. His passing in particular, she says, forced her to reorient her life.
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B
Her I didn't have a relationship to cooking. I didn't have a sense of meaning. I didn't know what to do. And then having sort of this very close up interaction with a dying person really brought to the forefront for me a sense of my own mortality and a clarity that like this thing that I've been doing my whole life of like put your head down and work and just achieve and you can be happy later. You can have fun later. And. And I realized, like, there's no later guaranteed.
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A
And out of all this transition and soul searching came her second cookbook, Good Things.
- [03:00]
B
I was able to find a way back to cooking and a way to find meaning in cooking as a way to spend this most precious currency, our time with the people that I care about.
- [03:12]
A
Samin sat down with me to talk about her ever evolving approach to recipes and her best tips for having a successful and flexible, flavorful Thanksgiving gathering. But we started with what's in the new book, its emphasis on gathering with people to share a meal, and what she hoped to create this time around.
- [03:31]
B
Even before, sort of, I was so clear about this, like, kernel of time being at the heart of the book. I was already testing recipes. I was already trying to find my way to things that I did feel would be joyful to share. You know, I don't want to make myself as only some achievement monster. Like, I also truly am driven by, like, this joy in sharing really good things, like when something is really beautiful or delicious or fun or moving. The first thing I want to do in my life always is call people up or, like, wave people down on the street and be like, do you know about this? This is so cool.
- [04:10]
A
Did you know about this train? Yeah, yeah, totally.
- [04:14]
B
And so that also is very much at the sentimen of this book, which is like, these are the things that make me feel like that. And some of them are really small, you know, and not super labor intensive or expensive or complicated. And some of them are more, you know, ask more of you as a cook. But I would say that's the, like, tenet of that was the sort of standard every recipe had to meet or anything I wanted to include in the book had to have that feeling of like, did you, you know about this yet?
- [04:43]
A
I know that you have a complicated relationship with recipes. Let's talk about that. I mean, you talk about it in this book, too, and you've talked about it before. But tell me your current thoughts on recipes, which I know might change and we always evolve and how you kind of think about recipe development for something like this book.
- [05:02]
B
Yeah, I have these two very intense, very conflicting feelings about why recipes unsettle me. And one is I think that the fundamental promise of a recipe is sort of flawed. Like, I think the thing that we expect from reading a list of ingredients and reading a list of steps is that if we follow what's on the page, we will get the thing in the picture and that will happen every time forever.
- [05:27]
A
Yeah.
- [05:27]
B
But, like, it's just not true. I mean, even, like, in a quantum physics way, it's not true. Like, time is different every time. You know, my oranges maybe are more acidic this time. My tomatoes are maybe more watery this time. Like, so much of what you have to bring is your own attention and your own experience and your senses. So that's part of what the issue for me is. Part of it is, too. Like, I want more than anything to be your friend and your advocate and your teacher in the kitchen. So I take it very seriously that, like, if you follow what I've written on the page and it doesn't work out, that's because I made a mistake somewhere. Like, I didn't include some very important information. There's a problem with the recipe. It's not you. And I never want you to feel bad, but I take that to, like, extremes. And then that I agonize over the precision of how many grams of flour I should be specifically telling you to do, knowing that most people don't actually weigh their flour. Right. So there's all of this kind of like. Like, I drive myself crazy with trying to get it as precise as possible. And I also don't want you to have to be that precise because I wrote an entire other book called Salt, Fat, Acid Heat, teaching you how to cook, like, intuitively, instinctively, in the moment with whatever you have and being loose. And, like, sometimes you have three bunches of carrots and the recipe's written for two, but it doesn't really matter that much. Like, just cut them the same size, you know, roast them for the same time. Like, which information is the most crucial to get you where you need to go is what I'm always trying to include.
- [07:00]
A
Right. I'll tell you, Samin, I made one of the recipes before chatting with you today. I made your cuckoo kopita. So this was speaking to me because, as I told you right before we started chatting, I am half Iranian. Kuku, being a Persian dish, that is really herb heavy. It's like a herby frittata, sort of. And you combined it with spana kopita here.
- [07:24]
B
Yes.
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A
Which was such a creative application. I just. I was in love with the picture and was like, I want this, so I think I need to make. I want that, too.
- [07:32]
B
Now that I see the picture. Thank you so much for making that. That makes me so happy. It truly. It's so delicious. And I think part of where that came from for me was this is kind of how I stumble into all of these. Like, Anything that I'm trying to figure out how to, like, create something new. And when it comes to cooking, I don't believe that there's that much new under the sun. Like, I think if you zoom way out and you look across the world, people everywhere have their, you know, bean dish. People everywhere have their stew. They have their, you know, their grilled thing, their bread, their noodle, their dumpling. Like, there are just sort of only so many ways of doing things. So what is it exactly that I am bringing to this, like, with this Cuckoo. And this, in some ways, came out of the pandemic between my garden and the farm boxes. I always have so many herbs, and I'm kind of always a little bit behind on using them up. And a really beautiful way that herbs are sort of dealt with in Persian cooking is that they're chopped up very finely and often sort of sauteed to this very far point of, like, almost turning very dark green, almost black. And the oil you cook them in gets really green and fragrant, and the taste of the herbs changes. It doesn't have that freshness. It has a much deeper, richer taste. And it's a very delicious taste to me. And that was where this idea for the cucu kopita came from. Cause I also really love spanakopita and all the kind of flaky pastries from all the Balkan regions and across the, you know, Mediterranean and in Turkey and everywhere. So this was a way to sort of take something from our culture and combine it with something else.
- [09:09]
A
Well, it's a really fun idea, and it was delicious. I really enjoyed it. Well, I would say that this book, as much as it is about recipes and the food itself, it's very much a book about people and what happens when we gather and share food together. In a lot of ways, it's really like an ode to the rituals that we share with the people we love most.
- [09:33]
B
Yes.
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A
And you tell some stories in the book about how hard it's been for you to sort of let go of who you were used to being in the kitchen and what needed to change so that you could really enjoy the gathering with people. Can you talk about that a little bit?
- [09:49]
B
Yeah. I've always sort of historically spent every dinner party that I've ever been a host of, like a Tasmanian devil, sort of running around with the idea from my heart that, like, this is what's going to make people feel cared for. But ultimately, I think they're also, like, in the splash zone of my, like, anxious energy. Right. And that's very much the mode that I have been in as, like, a host, let's say, for probably my whole adult life. Because also, I'm a professional cook, so I want everything to be perfect and just so. And when people say, can we help in any way? I'm like, absolutely not. Partly out of, like, an idea of generosity and partly cause I'm a control freak. Right. And I end up missing the whole meal. And one thing I've learned with this group of friends, we've had these Monday dinners now for over five years. And one of the beautiful moments is when you sit down at the table and pull your chair up and sort of are able to look at the table and see what everyone's made and brought together, which for me, happened only sort of out of necessity and out of, like, sort of accidentally, because these dinners are not at my house. So I don't host them. I often cook things and contribute them, but I don't get to feel this ownership because it's very collaborative. And so it was sort of pride out of my hands. And because of that, I've gotten to have this sense of what it's like to be cared for and what it's like to share responsibility and also share credit. And that feels so good.
- [11:16]
A
Yeah. Tell me more about this weekly ritual, because you wrote a really lovely essay about it, about how it's tough to do to institute a ritual that happens every week with the same people getting together, eating, but what you gain from it. It sounds like it's just been an enormously important new thing in all of your lives.
- [11:38]
B
Yes. And it ultimately doesn't have to be that hard. This one sort of happened very serendipitously. I became an adult in professional kitchens, which meant that all of my. And it meant that anytime we gathered, which was often, it was all about the food. You know what I mean? Like, we were all like, ooh, what did we learn about this time? What do we want to make? And a little bit of the spirit of, like, impressing each other, outdoing each other. And yet there were also many meals that I sat at the tables of where I didn't feel like I was fully a human, allowed to be my full self at the table. You know, I needed to be on my best behavior, or maybe I was the only person who wasn't white, or there were cultural touchstones that everyone else sort of had that I felt very excluded from. And so I kind of realized I didn't want to make my life around meals like that anymore. And that's what's been so beautiful, is that this group of people is not necessarily who I would have, you know, if I was, like, coming up with my dream fantasy list of my friends to come to dinner, it wouldn't have been, I think, any of these people. They're friendly, we're friends, but they were not at the core of my life. And just the sort of proximity and the commitment over these last five years has brought them to the core of my life. They're who I dedicated this book to. They, in some ways, have kept me alive in these last several years through these really hard times, and they've shown me what it is to learn to accept help and to just keep showing up. And then all these things kind of become clear in this really beautiful way. Like, it doesn't feel such a high stakes event because you always know there's another one next week. And so you sort of, like, just have this comfort of, like, showing up in whatever state you're in and being together. And the food is also like that. Like, sometimes we want to do sort of something really exciting and challenging or interesting or we saw something on TikTok or whatever and we want to make it. Other times, it's. We all just cobble together what we have. Last night we had tofu burgers, and then we stopped at the burger place and bought French fries, and we had French fries from the burger place along with our homemade tofu burgers. And it's great. It's. That we continue doing it is the most sort of impactful and powerful part.
- [13:53]
A
Of it that's so beautiful. Well, let's talk about Thanksgiving, because Thanksgiving is, in so many ways, not that at all when you're describing, it's so much more of that kind of event, cooking, event, gathering, where for a lot of people, it feels like the stakes are really high.
- [14:10]
B
Really high.
- [14:11]
A
But let's start with the food. But more than the feeling, we'll get into the feeling of Thanksgiving, but the food, um, it sounds like you grew up in a way that, you know, Thanksgiving meals were not necessarily the traditional American Thanksgiving. Coming from an child of immigrants, immigrant family, what was Thanksgiving like for you growing up? What was on the table?
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B
We didn't have my mom. We just had, like, another day. It was just another day at her house.
- [14:35]
A
Yes. Thursday. Yeah.
- [14:36]
B
Yeah. I will say we always liked a turkey sandwich with cranberry sauce, you know, which you can get at that time of year from delis and stuff. And so it's not that I didn't know it's in popular culture. You know, about the turkey and the cranberry sauce, But I wasn't eating it by any means, so I don't have that deep nostalgia. You know, I don't have that sense of, like, my family every year has this chestnut stuffing or whatever. I don't have that. I just want things that taste good on the table. Yeah.
- [15:03]
A
It's good to find a removed party because people feel very attached to the things that are supposed to be on a Thanksgiving table. Right. So from your perspective, what could totally go. What do you. What are you nod down with on a Thanksgiving table?
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B
Well, from my perspective, just as a cook and also I think this has to do with being Persian, maybe you'll agree, is like, I have a very acidic palate.
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A
Oh, yeah.
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B
You know, like, my mom used to sit in the lemon tree and snack on lemons after school. I want my salad dressings to, like, make me pucker. I like, sort of, like a scoop of yogurt on everything. And so eating, like, traditional Thanksgiving food, I am often sort of stunned by how, say, bland the food is and leans very, like, starchy, salty, even fatty. Like, but there's not a lot to, like, offer contrast. And even all the textures are all pretty mushy for the most part. So it's not that I think any individual thing has to go. I just think often what will make that better is introducing more forms of acid and some texture, some crunch to brighten it up and bring it to life so that it's not this, like, monotonous thing to be like, I'm gonna eat mashed potatoes and then stuff. Everything's kind of just mushy, so. And I know I'm not a great one.
- [16:21]
A
I think most people dish totally. Yeah.
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B
I think it's, like, mushy, soupy thing. I think if you step back and think about it, you'll see, like, it's why everyone eats everything with so much cranberry sauce is it's the only acidic thing on the whole table. So often I suggest people make a fried sage salsa verde. So you can just fry a few leaves of sage and olive oil, and they get really crispy. And then you just make, like, a green salsa with parsley and shallots and vinegar and olive oil and then crumble that sage in. So it has that Thanksgivingness with the sage, but it still can, like, brighten things up.
- [16:51]
A
Ooh, that's nice. Any other, like, favorite things that you like to bring to a Thanksgiving table where you're like, this'll this'll help this kind of add a little something that feels missing to my palate.
- [17:03]
B
I mean, basically, I just feel like condiments are the gift. There's also, like, a breadcrumb sort of topping that I sometimes make with other fried. Like fried rosemary and sage and breadcrumb crumbs to sprinkle and. And, like, you're looking for crunch.
- [17:16]
A
Yeah. You're looking for texture. It sounds like.
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B
Yeah, totally.
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A
I'll tell you one thing that I struggle with, Samin, which is I like cooking. I like cooking. It makes me feel good. I like feeding my toddler something and watching him just devour it. And it's, like, such a good feeling that I put that together and made it taste that way for him. It's nice. It's really satisfying. It's really satisfying feeding other people. But. But I've, like, I've somehow gotten this far in my life without having, like, a signature dish.
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B
Oh, that's okay.
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A
And I feel like I should by now.
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B
I don't know.
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A
Or I feel, like, this pressure to have, you know, the thing that you want other people in the family to be like, oh, would you bring that thing that you make? We really look forward to it. And I'm thinking about it, particularly around Thanksgiving, because now we're finally in the kind of Thanksgiving mix and rotation and soon to be part of the hosting rotation. And I just. I feel like I. I never blossomed into this stage of. Of staking my place on the table. Do you have advice for me and people who feel like me?
- [18:18]
B
I feel like where that comes from is it has to come naturally. And I think where it comes from is from your own, like, something that makes you happy either to eat or to make. And so I don't think you're gonna figure it out between now and this Thanksgiving.
- [18:35]
A
Yeah.
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B
But I do think it's something you can spend some time thinking, like, oh, what brings me a lot of pleasure is washing lettuces and assembling a big salad. So maybe I'm going to spend the next year trying a bunch of different salad dressings and figuring out, like, what's the one that I want my kid to grow up with as, like, our house dressing, and then that, over time, will become your signature thing or, you know, in whatever thing. I love roasting vegetables and combining them with, you know, a big dollop of laban and this, that, and the other. And so people love the way I roast vegetables, But I think it has to be something that you genuinely are moved to do rather than Deciding to, like, dedicate yourself to making pie crust and becoming a pie champion, you know.
- [19:18]
A
At the state fair or something. That's what feels very intimidating about it to me. Like, oh, I need to, like, choose the recipe. I think that's what it really comes down to in my head. It feels like it starts with a recipe or something.
- [19:29]
B
I don't think it starts with a recipe. I think it starts with a desire. And like. And then I think you practice. So I would actually choose one of the simplest things that you maybe like to eat or make and then just sort of try different ways of doing that over time until you find your way. And I think also the part where you have a kid, a little kid, is a really cool sort of inspiration for it because then, I mean, you probably have things that your mom made you when you were little that you are like, I love the way my mom does X. And so it's this way where like, you now get to do that to the next generation.
- [20:03]
A
Yeah.
- [20:04]
B
So it comes from you, you know, it comes from you.
- [20:07]
A
Yeah. Yeah. That's a good way to think of it. You've talked a lot about how, like, letting go of some of the big pressures around gatherings is part of what is going to unlock the joy for you.
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B
Yes.
- [20:19]
A
Which is great advice. What does that look like practically? What do you like to tell people to think about or focus on or retrain their brain to think about? Because it's one thing to hear that advice, it's another thing to really try and take it and act on it, which is hard for some people.
- [20:34]
B
Yeah. I think there's like two pieces to this. So one piece I think is realizing you probably shouldn't do everything yourself. And actually it brings people joy to contribute. But if you're like me and you're control freak and you still want to be in charge of the menu, you can do the thing where you have a spreadsheet, you know, you assign the dishes and then you let people choose which one of your pre assigned dishes to make.
- [20:55]
A
Yeah.
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B
So, but I do think like letting people contribute so they have a sense of, you know, so that they have their own sense of accomplishment or that their own this was their meal that they got to make is great. And not everyone likes to cook. So there are other ways to involve people. You know, sometimes like at Thanksgiving, the problem is where is everyone gonna sit? What are we gonna do before the meal? What are we gonna do after the meal? Who's gonna do the dishes? There are many other ways that people can contribute and help streamline things. And I think that's really important. I also think you can just do less. I think you can have a more streamlined menu. You can have fewer things. You can buy some of the things or just make simpler versions of them. So those are ways, I think, to sort of practically make it a little bit simpler. I also think. I also think just as far as, like, cooking know how and skill, so much of it is about being organized and starting earlier and looking really clearly at what it is that you want to serve and sort of working backwards from whatever time you plan to sit down at the table to. I would even work as far backwards as to, like, the weekend before and see what things you can start doing in advance. You know, even most turkeys now are frozen, which means they need, like a good two days to defrost. Yeah. And then for me, I like to season my turkey. If I am going to have one, I like to, you know, I do often the buttermilk brine. But even if not the buttermilk brine, that's like a two day process to make sure you've given the salt enough time to penetrate all the way inside. Which the two days of defrosting and the two days of brining is four days. That means for a Thursday dinner, you need to start on Sunday. And that's just one piece of your meal. Things like, if you're going to make your pie from scratch, do yourself a favor and make your pie dough the week before and keep it in the freezer. That doesn't suffer. So I would say preparation and thinking ahead is a way to reduce your own pain and stress.
- [22:57]
A
Yeah. You sound like my mom. My mom is an excellent cook. And it'll be like three weeks before an event. She's mapping it with me on the phone, like, so here's what I'm doing. Already starting to think about it.
- [23:09]
B
That means she's good at what she does. Yeah.
- [23:11]
A
Yeah. It's the only way you get. And she has, you know, her lipstick is on and she's sitting down, having impeccable two hours before gas arrive. She's like, totally got it under control. Surreal. I aspire to that. Sami, let's do a quick. If you're up for it, like a lightning round.
- [23:26]
B
Let's do it.
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A
I had a bunch of quick answer prompts.
- [23:30]
B
I'm notoriously bad at lightning rounds, but I'll try.
- [23:32]
A
Are you? Oh, good. This is gonna be fun then. Okay. Okay. Favorite underrated kitchen tool. Ooh.
- [23:40]
B
I would say just. I don't Even know how underrated. But the Y shaped vegetable peeler, rather than the classic one, it's ergonomically superior. And the way you hold it allows your other hand to turn the vegetable really easily. Like Y shaped vegetable peeler, $2.99. Make your life easier.
- [23:58]
A
Just do it. Don't turn back. Favorite cookbook that's not your own.
- [24:04]
B
Okay. Luckily, I'm sitting under all the books right now. Oh, there's one called Coconut and Sambal. I use it all the time. It's by an Indonesian British chef named Lara Lee. And truly, I didn't really know anything about Indonesian food until I picked up this book. And because I know so little about Indonesian cooking, I really do follow it to the letter. And everything I've made out of this book is so good.
- [24:30]
A
Ooh, that's a good endorsement. Okay. Favorite giftable food or kitchen item that you love to give people.
- [24:38]
B
The vegetable peeler.
- [24:40]
A
Yeah, you'll thank me, trust me.
- [24:44]
B
Or I also. The other thing I feel like people do. This is another answer to the underrated one. Sorry to cut. My cut. This is where I'm bad at. The lightning is I really like flour sack cotton dish towels. Like, I think people have a lot of fancy dish towels or made out of other materials. But the flour sack is so soft and so absorbent. They're inexpensive. I have like 50 of them in my studio kitchen, and I just sort of, like, use them, like, whatever. And that's a great gift, too. Like a dozen of those.
- [25:13]
A
Great gift, Non precious workhorse kitchen CL thoughts. Yeah. A dish that you make for yourself when you're too tired to think.
- [25:21]
B
Quesadillas.
- [25:23]
A
Quesadillas. That's a good one. Dish that you love to make for others.
- [25:27]
B
Lasagna. I love, like, just all of the steps and all of the time it takes. I love thinking about people while I'm cooking. Yeah.
- [25:35]
A
Labor of love. I like that favorite shortcut or kitchen hack that you like to tell people.
- [25:41]
B
Oh, my new favorite thing. Well, my two new favorite. I'll give you two for one. My two new favorite, like, little appliances that make things so wonderful. One is the immersion blender. Like the little stick blender where you can do it in the pot, you know, like, I just made tomato soup the other day. We pureed it with the immersion blender. It was so creamy. Love that. And then sort of along the same lines, I have a little tiny sort of mini food processor, just like the mini one. And I use that all the time because it's smaller. You don't need to put, like, five cups of herbs in it to make it work. But I make a little salsa verde in there. I make sofritos in there. I make all sorts of stuff, and it's just so easy. And it's so easy to clean.
- [26:22]
A
Nice. Love it. I'm gonna ask you a hard question. I think it's a hard question. Favorite recipe from this new book.
- [26:28]
B
Oh, man. Every day I'm gonna give a different answer, but today I'm gonna say it's the creamy lemon miso dressing. I love a creamy dressing, but I don't always love digesting a lot of dairy or eggy things. And so I sort of gave myself the project of coming up with creamy dressings that were not dairy based. And this one is based on an ingredient called aquafaba, which is the liquid from a can of chickpeas or beans. And it's an amazing thickener. So it's a winner. And it took me a long time to, like, really nail it, and I love it.
- [27:02]
A
Samit, I know we're almost out of time, so I'll just ask you one last question, which is at this time of year, people are getting ready for lots of gatherings and lots of eating and lots of cooking and planning. For a lot of people, it's a really joyful time, but it can also be really stressful, and it can bring on a lot of the sort of holiday scaries. So what are your words of advice for people who might be feeling a little bit of overwhelm at this time of year? And what are you personally looking forward to in these next few months?
- [27:30]
B
I mean, I can really relate to that because having grown up sort of without the, like, winter holidays at the center of my life, I long felt, like, excluded. And I have a complicated relationship to my own family, and so. And it is such a family heavy time. So even just seeing that in the culture can make you feel really lonely. So I think, first of all, like, you really just have to take care of yourself in whatever way that is. For me, it's often making sure I'm around a lot of friends. And I also have a lot of alone time. I go for a lot of hikes. I'm outside. And in terms of the cooking and the food, I mean, what am I looking forward to? Well, last year I had sort of my first big friend Christmas that was like, for the first time, something that I was fully. We all had matching pajamas, you know.
- [28:16]
A
Oh, gosh, so cute.
- [28:17]
B
Which, like, as a kid who grew up without Christmas like, we were all sort of Christmas orphans and we banded together and it was so fun. And that's sort of like, I think, where I'm gonna be spending the Christmases for the rest of time. And so I do look forward to sort of this group of friends and the fact that we get to make it up as we want. And so I think for me, it's just the people I'm the most excited about and, yeah, whatever comes with that. I always get excited to, like, do some project cooking and give it away as a gift, but that specific hasn't hit me quite yet.
- [28:48]
A
Yeah, it'll come to you. It'll come to you. You have some weeks still. Samin, this was such a joy. Thank you so much. Thanks for the advice and the encouragement that people like me and others feel like they need in the kitchen to thank you intimidated by it all and to really connect with what really makes it fun and joyful.
- [29:05]
B
Thank you. I wish you and everyone listening, like, really happy and smooth holidays.
- [29:14]
A
We'll include a link to semi book good things on our show notes page. And every weekend you can find new episodes of Apple News in conversation in the Apple News app. Just tap on the audio tab, that's the little headphones at the bottom to find it.