The best music, movies, and TV of 2025

Summary

Apple News Today: The Best Music, Movies, and TV of 2025 – Summary

Date: December 20, 2025
Host: Shumita Basu
Guests: Anne Helen Petersen and Sam Sanders

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Episode Overview

This special year-end episode of Apple News Today looks back at the music, movies, and TV shows that defined 2025. Host Shumita Basu is joined by noted culture critics Anne Helen Petersen (Culture Study podcast & newsletter) and Sam Sanders (Sam Sanders Show, KCRW) to dissect the year’s standout releases, cultural trends, and shifting audience tastes. Listener recommendations are also featured, revealing the personal favorites and obsessions of the Apple News audience.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The State of Pop Culture in 2025

• Reheated Nostalgia & Social Regression

  • Sam Sanders described 2025 as “reheat those nachos,” pointing to the recursive recycling of cultural content in internet and algorithm-driven culture ([01:58]).
  • Anne Helen Petersen’s phrase: “social regression” reflected concerns about gender norms, body messaging, and anti-woke backlash ([03:09]).
  • The majority of music streaming comes from older (“catalog”) music, and hit TV shows are often long-running series like Prison Break and Suits ([03:34]).

• Quote:

  • “Everything about the way Internet culture works right now...is propelling us into cycles of repetitive nostalgia. Some of it feels good, some of it feels bad. Most of it’s just mid.” — Sam Sanders [01:58]

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Standout Music Releases

• Noah Cyrus – I Want My Loved Ones to Go With Me

  • Anne: Surprised by the album; evokes Nico Case & Gillian Welch; features a duet with Fleet Foxes; “She just has that Cyrus talent...I could listen to it on repeat.” ([05:02])

• Lizzo – My Face Hurts from Smiling (Mean Girl Rap Mixtape)

  • Sam: Praised Lizzo’s embrace of the “villain” persona post-scandal; craved “celebrities who aren’t afraid to be mean” ([05:47]).

• Geese

  • Sam: “The lead singer sounds like he is in the middle of a bar fight...if Kings of Leon went on a drug bender for a week.” ([06:40])

• Bad Bunny

  • Huge year: Most streamed artist on Spotify for the fourth consecutive year ([07:37]).
  • His success underscored the shift in pop culture away from a U.S.-centric focus (“He is a global artist who sings in Spanish...and he’s still number one” – Sam, [08:10]).

• Taylor Swift

  • Mixed reviews for her much-anticipated release: Sam wishes she would “finally finish high school...I’m still getting song lyrics about prom.” ([09:01])
  • Anne: Noted her relentless productivity, questioned necessity of releasing everything ([09:23]).

• Pop and Praise Music Crossover

  • Noted trend of praise/worship music influences in mainstream pop (“the spirit of a U2 ballad...earnest, simple chord progressions” – Sam, [11:14]).
  • Example: Alex Warren’s “Ordinary” as the archetype ([11:41]).

Listener Music Picks

• Lady Gaga’s Mayhem
• Sleep Token’s Even in Arcadia
• Rochelle Jordan’s Through the Wall

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Television Highlights

• Severance (Apple TV+)

  • Listener Jennifer: Obsessed with weekly viewing, deep dives, and related podcasts ([13:44]).

• Andor (Disney+) Season 2

  • Listener Jerry: “Acting, next level, phenomenal. The writing, brilliant, tight...explores finding hope in the harshest of times.” ([14:17])

• Grey’s Anatomy (ABC, Season 22)

  • Listener Jess: “Such a good drama...Shonda Rhimes has exploded the hospital like, three times.” ([14:44])

Critics’ TV Standouts

• Adolescence (Netflix)

  • Sam: Surprised by quality and depth; “The portrayals of all of these characters, it is pretty remarkable.” ([15:10])
  • Shumita: Reflected on parenting challenges in a hyper-connected world ([16:47]).

• The Diplomat (Netflix)

  • Anne: “Perfect amount of episodes...brings up so many great questions...Keri Russell is phenomenal.” ([18:24])

• Task

  • Anne: Mark Ruffalo-led crime drama with effective twists; just renewed for season 2 ([19:11]).

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Movies in 2025

• Cinema Attendance Trends

  • Americans go to the movies “a little bit less than once a year” on average ([20:03]).
  • Factors: COVID habits, accessibility, and high childcare costs discourage theatergoing ([20:19]).
  • Movie culture now dominated by franchises, IPs, and children’s films; “mid-tier” movies struggle ([20:57]).

• Sinners

  • Only listener call-in for movies; universally praised by Anne and Sam ([21:18]).
  • Sam: “It’s a horror movie, it’s a musical, it’s a race movie, it’s a history movie...all at once, and it’s a Michael B. Jordan movie.” ([21:39])
  • Anne: Praised risk-taking and experimental approach; “Sinners creates that magical feeling of cinema. I haven’t had something do that for me in a couple of years.” ([22:43])

• Hollywood’s Risk Aversion

  • Anne: “There’s incredible risk adversity...most interesting experimentation is happening in television.” ([24:46])

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K Pop Demon Hunters – A Pop Culture Phenomenon

• Music and merchandise became unexpectedly huge, especially among kids.
• Hollywood “didn’t see it coming” and failed to capitalize immediately (no merch or costumes ready) ([26:44]).
• Sam admired its blend of K-pop, anime, and Broadway musical structure ([27:22]).

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What Audiences and Critics Want from Art

• Anne:

  • Seeks risk-taking and originality, not nostalgia—“I don’t need everything to reinvent the wheel...but I do want it to maybe take a risk” ([28:23]).

• Sam:

  • Longs for “monoculture”—shared cultural touchstones—over algorithm-driven personal consumption. Notes that politics (especially Trump) is effectively becoming the new monoculture ([29:04]).

• Quote:

  • “I just want more things that we enjoy together.” — Sam Sanders [30:15]

• Anne agrees: moments of collective experience (like Taylor’s album release week) are powerful and missing in splintered media culture ([30:21]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Quote/Description | Speaker | |-----------|------------------|---------| | 01:58 | “Reheat those nachos”—the defining phrase for 2025’s recycled pop culture | Sam Sanders | | 03:34 | “70% of music streaming is catalog music.” | Sam Sanders | | 05:04 | “She just. She has that Cyrus talent...I could listen to it on repeat.” (on Noah Cyrus) | Anne Helen Petersen | | 06:01 | “She fully leaned into just being the villain...seeing her finally just say, I guess I am the villain felt very good.” (on Lizzo) | Sam Sanders | | 07:37 | “He can do no wrong...he’s a pretty man. I love it, I love it.” (on Bad Bunny) | Sam Sanders | | 08:10 | “He is a global artist who sings in Spanish and not English. And he’s still number one.” | Sam Sanders | | 09:01 | “I wish she would finally finish high school...I’m still getting song lyrics about prom.” (on Taylor Swift) | Sam Sanders | | 11:14 | “The spirit of a U2 ballad...earnest, simple chord progressions...” (on pop/praise music) | Sam Sanders | | 15:10 | “I am perpetually intrigued by whatever Netflix’s strategy is, because I’m not sure they know what it is.” | Sam Sanders | | 22:43 | “Sinners creates that magical feeling of cinema. I haven’t had something do that for me in a couple of years.” | Anne Helen Petersen | | 28:23 | “I do want it to maybe take a risk. And I think that’s why Sinners sticks out to me as the highlight of my pop culture year.” | Anne Helen Petersen | | 29:04 | “I just long for monoculture. I long for things that we can consume together and talk about together.” | Sam Sanders |

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Key Timestamps for Segments

• [00:04] – Episode intro and welcome
• [01:18] – Panelists’ three-word cultural summaries
• [03:34] – Discussion on streaming/nostalgia stats
• [04:45] – Best new music of the year (panelists’ picks)
• [07:37] – Discussion on Bad Bunny and Spotify Wrapped
• [09:01] – Analysis and debate on Taylor Swift’s 2025 album
• [11:07] – The rise of “praise music” influence in pop
• [12:28] – Listener recommendations: music
• [13:44] – Listener recommendations: TV
• [15:10] – TV standouts: Adolescence & Netflix
• [16:47] – Parenting and the impact of TV narratives
• [18:24] – The Diplomat and Task: Further TV picks
• [20:03] – Declining movie theater attendance; causes
• [21:18] – Highlighting Sinners and the modern horror hit
• [24:49] – Industry trends: risk aversion in Hollywood
• [25:49] – K Pop Demon Hunters: breakout phenomenon
• [28:23] – What the critics want from art in 2025
• [29:04] – Monoculture’s disappearance from pop culture

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Conclusion

The episode captures a year defined by recycled nostalgia, anxiety over changing societal norms, and standout moments of originality in music, TV, and film—particularly when creators take risks. Despite the fracturing of audiences into algorithm-shaped niches, the critics and listeners alike express a longing for more collective cultural experiences.

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For further details, listen to the full episode or visit the show notes for additional links and resources.

Transcript

[A]

This is in conversation from Apple News. I'm Shemita Basu. Today, a look back at the year in culture. What did you watch or listen to this year that really moved you? It's a question worth asking at the end of every year as we take stock of what got us talking and thinking. And when it comes to culture critics, there are two people whose takes I always love hearing, even if I don't agree with them. And sometimes, especially if I haven't seen or heard the thing they're really excited about.

[B]

It's a horror movie, it's a musical, it's a race movie, it's a history movie. Like, it's all of these things all.

[C]

At once and it's a Michael B. Jordan movie.

[A]

Hello, that's Anne, Helen Peterson and Sam Sanders. Anne's got this great Patreon newsletter and a podcast called Culture Study. And Sam hosts Sam Sanders show on kcrw. They've both been writing about pop culture for years. I asked them to stop by so we could chat about the best new releases this year in music, film and tv. We also asked you, our listeners, to tell us some of your favorite things that came out this year that you'd recommend.

[C]

I think this year has just been a really great year for music. The riffs, the sludgy abrasive guitars that repeat and mutate.

[A]

I love the music, the acting, the costumes. I watched each episode every week. I rewatched each episode.

[D]

It makes me laugh every single time I watch it or it gets like a really strong emotion out of me.

[A]

It is gripping. It is unlike anything I've seen before.

[D]

The performances are outstanding. Just a beautifully written show.

[C]

I can't recommend this album enough.

[A]

We'll hear some of your picks in just a bit, but first I asked both Anne and Sam if they could sum up the year in culture in three words or less.

[C]

I think my three words for this year are would be reheat those nachos. I just feel like everything about the way Internet culture works right now, streaming culture works right now and algorithm culture works right now. It is propelling us into cycles of repetitive nostalgia. Some of it feels good, some of it feels bad. Most of it's just mid.

[B]

Oh my gosh.

[C]

Yeah, like it all crystallized for me when I saw this viral TikTok of J. Lo and the lead singer of 4 Non Blondes lip syncing over a remix of Nicki Minaj's Bees in the Trap and what's Up. And that was the most popular stuff on TikTok for like a week. And it's like, oh, it's all just the past reheated. The nachos reheat themselves at this point. That was my year.

[A]

Yeah. It feels like an AI hallucination or something. You're like, where did it, what kind of grab bag did this get pulled out of? Yeah.

[B]

The words that I was gonna use were far less inventive and it was just social regression.

[C]

Wow.

[B]

I've just been thinking a lot about what's going on with gender norms, how we're messaging stuff about bodies and how to relate to one another and anti woke stuff. And I think that we are in a moment of regression right now.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And there's data that backs it up. So the stat that has given me the most pause this year, apparently of all Spotify streaming. About 70% of music streaming is what's called catalog music. That means music that's 18 months old or older.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

We keep going back to the same old trough. There's one estimate, I think from TV Guide, that perhaps the biggest show in streaming this year was Fox's Prison Break, which has been around forever.

[B]

Right. And before that, even like during the pandemic.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Wasn't it? What's the one that Meghan Markle was in?

[A]

Oh, suits, suits, suits.

[B]

And part of this is like the familiarity of genre. Why we like those sorts of shows going back to things that have this sort of progression. But there was a small handful of things this year that felt new.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Well, let's talk about some of the new stuff. Maybe we should start with music. There's just so many new releases, so much to talk about in music this year. What for you two were some of the standout moments in music. In new music this year.

[B]

The album that I loved this year and I was so surprised by it is Noah Cyrus album. Have you heard this?

[C]

Oh, I need to check this out because it's funny, I heard a song of hers years ago and was like, that kid's got talent. And I never like researched it and dug in more. So it's the truth.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

What do you like about it? Am.

[B]

So it's called I Want My Loved Ones to Go With Me. And it really evokes like this kind of mix of a sound that I really love, which is like Nico Case, Gillian Welch. The second song on the album is a duet with Fleet Foxes, which is exquisite.

[C]

By the look in your eye I.

[A]

Can tell that you're no longer sleeping.

[C]

Sleeping but we're still dreaming don't put it all on me.

[B]

And she just. She has that Cyrus talent. Like, she has a gorgeous voice.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And you can hear Miley in it. But also it's different. I just. I adore it and I could listen to it on repeat.

[C]

Wow.

[A]

Ooh, Fun one, Sam, what about for you?

[C]

I was surprisingly blown away. Not by Lizzo's Return album, but by the weird Mean girl rap mixtape she released a few weeks later when the Return album plopped.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

It was an album in which she fully leaned into just being the villain. You know, she had that whole scandal over being potentially abusive to folks who worked for her. And she tried to fight it, but then it would. It just. It kind of went away, but kind of didn't. But seeing her finally just say, I guess I am the villain felt very good.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I long for a time when we had celebrities who weren't afraid to be mean.

[B]

I know, right?

[A]

We.

[C]

A little bit of that from Lizzo this year. And I liked it.

[A]

I've been fat and I've been skinny.

[C]

But I always been this pretty ho. Yeah.

[A]

I'm a bad little bit, huh? Yeah. I've been standing on Ben Up.

[C]

The album is called My Face Hurts from Smiling. Yeah. My second pick is this really weird band called Geese. All I can say about Geese is that the lead singer sounds like he is in the middle of a bar fight. Every song.

[B]

Totally.

[C]

And the entire mood of that band feels like if Kings of Leon went on a drug bender for a week. It's incredible.

[A]

If you want me to pay my taxes.

[C]

You better come over with a crucifix. I love how unwell the lead singer sounds. He just sounds unwell. And it's. But it's like beautiful. Last pick, and this is obvious, he powered me through all of my runs this year. Bad Bunny, he can do no wrong. He's a pretty man. I love it. I love it.

[A]

Big year for Bad Bunny. I mean, let's stop and talk about that, right? I mean, just the residency, the shows, the statements, the celebrity sightings at all those residencies. Spotify Wrapped just announced that he is the most streamed artist globally for 2025 this year.

[C]

Wow.

[A]

For the fourth year running.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Which is huge.

[C]

It's incredible. I love that. Everything about Bad Bunny right now is just telling all of us that America is not the center of the world.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

He didn't bring his residency to the States.

[A]

That's right.

[C]

Purposefully on the mainland, actually. He is a global artist who sings in Spanish and not English. And he's still number one. It was A big, I think, wake up call to the American pop culture industrial complex. Like we aren't the middle of everything anymore. And good.

[A]

I'll just say I saw some reaction to the Spotify wrapped news of 2025 with Bad Bunny. Being the most listened to, most dreamed was like, really, it wasn't Taylor Swift. And I think that's just. That's such a talk about recycling. Yeah, yeah. Where people are also in their bubbles. Right. I mean, obviously, much anticipated release, Taylor Swift's album. What did you two think of it already? Sam used the word recycling.

[C]

Yeah. I wish she would finally finish high school. God bless Taylor Swift. She's very good at many things and some of her songs have gotten me through breakups. But I'm still getting song lyrics about prom. It's weird at this point, the school.

[A]

Ball makes everything look cheap.

[C]

Have fun.

[A]

It's prom.

[B]

Well, I think there was a really interesting conversation, I think, about, like, her own personal choices and how they align with this regression to norms. And I do not think that Taylor Swift is becoming a trad wife. But also something that I've always found really interesting about Taylor Swift is how she has negotiated this space of celebrity as arguably one of the most famous people in the world as someone who is not married and who doesn't have kids. And so for me, in some ways it makes her less interesting to follow this path. I also think she likes to work. I've always argued that her ambition is really rooted in this desire. Like, I like doing the work, I like touring, I like producing more music and more music and more music. But something that any writer knows is that sometimes you need to do less music. Right. Like, there are things that don't need to be released. But I think we are also in this moment of like, everything that every artist makes should be available.

[A]

Right.

[B]

That somehow that's like transparency, that's authenticity. But it doesn't have to be that way.

[A]

This is less of a specific album question and more of just a trend that you've both pointed out in various ways before. But just the crossover of pop music and praise music. The sound of praise music making its way into pop music. I mean, we're many years into this trend now, but it does feel like it's sort of just deepening and we're just seeing it more and more, hearing it more and more. What are your thoughts on this?

[B]

I think Sam and I are both acutely aware of it because we grew up in the church, but Sam is the real expert. He made a whole playlist I have.

[A]

A playlist called Hillsong Core Hillsong, referencing this huge church, this huge mega church.

[C]

That mega Christian rock group that has dominated this kind of Christian music for decades now. For folks who don't know what we're talking about, the best way to describe it is like the spirit of a YouTube ballad. Yeah, like that kind of music. Earnest, simple chord progressions, melodies and hooks that linger on the five and the one. They're everywhere and you hear it across so many genres.

[B]

The song that I think most represents this is Alex Warren's Ordinary.

[C]

Oh yeah.

[A]

Oh sure.

[C]

Oh yeah.

[A]

Oh, completely. Which is all over social media and TikTok.

[B]

Everywhere. Yeah, everywhere. And I will not sing it, but like as soon as you hear the refrain. And it's just these soaring, but it's also, you know, like, I don't know, glorious, like celebratory. Everything that I don't feel honestly about, like our moment, but I do think it's like trying to force it, right?

[C]

It is this performance of Anthem.

[A]

When we asked you, our listeners, to send in your recommendations for your favorite things that came out this year, so many of you came ready to talk about music. We heard from a listener in Chicago who, like many of us, loved Lady Gaga's album Mayhem.

[C]

My name is Evan Curtis Mategian. Top to bottom, it's such a phenomenal piece of work. Her tour the Art of Personal Chaos was. I think the concert of the year was absolutely phenomenal.

[A]

Jonathan from Boston wanted to tell us about a band from the UK called Sleep Token and their new album Even in Arcadia.

[D]

The reason I think this album is special is I think it brings people into heavy music who I never thought I would see. With a rather genre defying album, a broad narrative concept and a unique take on metal music that is controversial but compelling.

[A]

Sergio from Southern California told us he's been loving the latest dance pop records.

[C]

My recommendation for an album that I really love is Rochelle Jordan's through the Wall, an artist based from Canada who has been making music for over a decade. And in this album she's just really proving just how incredible of an artist she is now.

[A]

Along with music recommendations. A lot of you sent in TV recommendations too. Jennifer from East Valley, California said she was absolutely obsessed with severance. I watched each episode every week. I rewatched each episode. I, after watching, would search YouTube for deep dives of each episode. I listened to the podcast with Ben Stiller and Adam Scott and of course I own Severance Merchant Jerry from Chicago made a pitch for andor even if you aren't a Star wars fan.

[C]

Season two took everything to a whole new level. The acting, next level, phenomenal. The writing, brilliant, tight, and honestly, some of the smartest I've seen on television. What really gets me is how this show explores finding hope in the harshest of times. It hits in such a real human way.

[A]

And a listener named Jess told us they were into Grey's Anatomy, which I have to confess, I didn't realize is still airing on ABC and is in its 20th second season.

[D]

It's such a good show and such a good drama, and honestly, it makes me laugh every single time I watch it. All the seasons are crazy. Shawna Rhimes has exploded the hospital like, three times. It's that crazy. Like, you wouldn't expect that, but, like, oh, my goodness, it's so good.

[A]

With so much out there to navigate, I asked Sam and Ann about their TV standouts this year.

[C]

I am perpetually intrigued by whatever Netflix's strategy is, because I'm not sure they know what it is. Some years it feels like all they want to make is schlocky reality tv. Some years it seems that all they want to make is rich white woman in danger. Someone showed up dead shows.

[B]

Yep.

[C]

But when Netflix wants to make something great and push it and make sure that we all know about it, they can. And this year, that show was adolescence. I was surprised by how good it was. I didn't expect Netflix to be able to do something that great, but the way they shoot it, the portrayals of all of these characters, it is pretty.

[A]

Remarkable, which the actors won. I mean, a lot of awards were handed out for this show earlier this.

[C]

Year, and it's so good. They made me watch a show that I would have never wanted to watch. The entire show is about whether or not a grade school student killed a classmate. I'm going to ask you once. Okay. No matter what's happened, no matter what you've done or you haven't done, I want you to tell me the truth. Did you do it? I would never want to watch that. But this one was so good in such a moment, I had to. And I loved it.

[A]

It's so true. It was a great show. It really stuck with me, I've got to say. I have a son. I have a toddler who's turning two soon, and I am pregnant right now with a second son. And I'm just thinking a lot about raising sons and this world we live in and being young and online and anyway, that.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, I'm curious as A parent of a son and soon to be two sons. What was your biggest takeaway from the show? I'm very curious.

[B]

Oh, gosh.

[C]

Sorry to put you on the spot.

[A]

No, no, it's okay. I mean, obviously, I watched it with my husband, and we talked so much about it, but I think for us, it just really drove home the point that there was a time when we didn't understand very much about how much kids could access on the Internet or weren't thinking about the implications of it. And we're just so. We're past that now. We're like, in the next chapter of that story. We know, but, you know, in this series, you see how young the kids are. Yeah. And you see it. I mean, the lead actor. I have to say, this young boy who won an award for his portrayal of this main character was phenomenal, but also so young. Can I ask you something? Yes.

[C]

Judith.

[A]

Do you like me? I was here as a professional, Jamie. Don't you think like that then My job was to assess as a professional. Not like that. Not Fantina. Just as a person so young. And you're just like, oh, my God. To a parent's eyes or to any adult's eyes, you're like. This kid was like. Is a really little kid. But we've saddled them with so much, like, to navigate, and it just. Yeah, it drove home this idea for me that, like, all of that starts so early and there's only so much you can control before, like, the whole world kind of comes to them.

[C]

Wow.

[A]

That's what it made me think about Sam. That's my short answer.

[B]

We're all dogging on Netflix, but they also produce the Diplomat, which is one of my. I think, one of the best shows, like, the perfect amount of episodes. Also, I think comment on, like, this idea that just because, like, a woman is in power doesn't mean that they're gonna be, like, good, Right. Or what does even, like, moral or good? What does that mean? What does competency look like? What does a partnership of two very powerful people look like?

[C]

For 10 years, I let you act like I was a man with no moral compass. I did that for you. It was a kindness.

[B]

No, you offloaded it to me.

[A]

You excused yourself because I was the conscience for both of us.

[B]

I think it brings up so many great questions, and the acting is fantastic. Keri Russell is phenomenal. So I really liked that. And I also recently, I really like Task, which I've always really loved Mark Ruffalo and would watch him do anything but this show takes some of, like, what you think about. Oh, it's like another crime show set in, like, gritty, you know, outside of Philly accents. Motor gangs like that sort of thing.

[D]

Whoever walked out of that house, they didn't leave with cash.

[C]

They left with 12 kilos of unprocessed china. China. They're gonna have to find a way to move.

[B]

But does some twists that I think are pretty effective and interesting. It just got renewed for a second season.

[A]

Let's talk about some movies if we can. We only got one listener call about movies, actually.

[C]

Surprisingly, no one goes anymore because there's a surprising stat. Most Americans only go to the movies a little bit less than once a year.

[A]

A little bit less than once a year.

[C]

The average is a little bit less.

[A]

Than once a year this year. You mention it.

[C]

Gosh, yeah. I blame COVID lockdown.

[B]

Yeah, I. So I blame it on Covid and like, the increased accessibility. But I also, I blame it on childcare costs, honestly, because I think that, like, most people are like, that's a good one. Costs triple to pay for the babysitting, what it would cost for me to go to this movie for two hours with my partner. I also think that we have become a society that, like, still doesn't, I don't know, validate going to the movies by yourself. And there's nothing better. There is nothing better than going to the movies by yourself. But it's become such a huge to do instead of just part of, like, the rhythms of our lives, which it should be in my mind.

[C]

Yeah, well, and we've reached this weird spot where mid tier movies, movies for adults, they just don't hit anymore. You have to have a big franchise, big IP or a kid's movie to really dominate. The only outliers this year were horror films like Sinners and Weapons, both of which I loved.

[A]

Sinners is actually the one that our one listener called in about and wanted.

[B]

To talk about because it's spectacular and it's not freaking recycled IP like, it. It's an actually interesting, experimental, provocative movie that I was listening to this great recap podcast of it from the ringer that was like, it's a horror movie.

[C]

It'S a musical, it's a race movie.

[B]

It'S a history movie. Like, it's all of these things all at once.

[C]

And it's a Michael B. Jordan movie.

[A]

Hello.

[B]

And it is a Michael B. Jordan movie.

[A]

So I have not seen it. I'm a bit of a. I'm like kind of a scaredy cat. When it comes to horror movies, but obviously you're describing me. It's like everything else, too. It's like so many genres across so many genres. Sell it to me. Why should I watch it? I mean, Michael B. Jordan is a really good reason to watch it. I think he's excellent.

[C]

You get two Michael B. Jordans because he plays twins. So there's that, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

There's this musical montage in the middle that, like, is an overview of, like, decades of music history in just a few minutes. It's incredible. There are legends of people born with the gift of making music. So true. It can pierce the veil between life and death, conjuring spirits from the past.

[B]

And it shouldn't work. It shouldn't. Like, there's so much going on. And while it was happening, I was saying to myself, this shouldn't work.

[C]

Yeah. And it did.

[B]

But it is like. It's remarkable. It is so good. I felt like that feeling you get when you're watching a movie in the theater and, like, you know that you are absorbed in this. Like. Like, this is art. It sounds corny, but, like, you are just there and present. And with this movie and Sinners, like, creates that magical feeling of cinema. I haven't had something do that for me in a couple of years.

[C]

Yeah, I loved it. I think that. And I've said this on many podcasts before, I think the perfect film genre, especially for theater going, is horror. There are universal beats in horror films that we all get. Horror movies are all about how we're all afraid to die and we all want to know what will kill us. That is universal. Most horror films you can understand with the sound off. And so it just works. And what I love about Sinners is that it takes horror and it really plays with format and structure. You end up getting the same horror plot through the lens of, I think, three or four of the main characters. And each time it feels a bit different. It's really smart. And what's been the most interesting thing to watch with the rollout and success of this movie is how much of establishment Hollywood refused to just admit that there was a big win for that team.

[B]

Right.

[C]

They questioned the box office. There were skeptics about whether it really made enough money. There were people who were mad at the fact that the creator of this film gets the rights to it back in 25 years. Hollywood is in a downward spiral. And you'd think they would. Would look at a film like Sinners and say, yes, please, more of this. And they were, like, questioning It. It was so strange to me. So strange.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Well, what does that tell you about the industry at large and what else we've seen be released this year?

[C]

None of the executives know what the hell they're doing. And we have reached this point, you know, I don't know.

[B]

Oh, I think there's just this incredible risk. Adversity.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Right. Like, it used to be that you would take a risk on 10 films and one of those films would be a breakout hit. And now because the middle has been completely cut out of the box office and stars are not functioning as, like, the IP the way that they used to, like a bunch of big star movies that were just released over the course of the last month, month and a half did nothing at the box office. So the rules are broken. No one knows what they're doing. But in those situations, what people do is they make the most conservative moves possible. Instead of thinking of this as a moment for real experimentation, which, like, if you look at the history of cinema, if you look at something like the 1970s, like, there was a ton of experimentation because the bottom had dropped out of, like, the traditional market. There were a ton of flops, but also some of like, it's one of the golden ages of American cinema. You don't have that happening now. I think most of that is interesting experimentation is happening in television.

[A]

We have just a few minutes left, but I really. I wanted to hit quickly on K Pop Demon Hunters, which has become such a phenomenon this year. If you have kids in your life, in your circles, they probably know all of the music to it. I somehow have absorbed some of the music to it just through osmosis of everyone consuming this so much. And I heard you say that you think the music is bad. Go give us a. I don't think.

[B]

All the music is bad. I think that. Okay, listen, I am not the hugest fan, but what is the big song.

[C]

When it's all over top Golden. That was the number one song in the country for weeks.

[B]

That song. That song is bad. It's bad. It's just like sonically bad. Sam, her voice, it breaks when she's.

[A]

Hitting the high note.

[B]

It's like she doesn't hit it. But I haven't. I'm only experiencing this while driving to the grocery store and I'm like, what is happening?

[C]

I found Keep Up Demon Hunters and the songs of that movie kind of tied to the themes that we discussed with Ryan Coogler and the success of Sinners. This was another movie that Hollywood didn't See coming because they don't know how to look outside of central casting. This film was such a surprise to the powers that be that once it became a hit, they had no merch to sell. So you had all these kids who were obsessed with K pop Demon hunters. Parents are like, where can we get the dolls? Where are the Halloween costumes? They didn't have it ready.

[A]

Yeah. Where are the Halloween costumes? I heard that so much. Yeah, but I. Okay.

[C]

Why? I like this movie. It's good enough. The songs are good enough. But I love that they snuck the themes of a Broadway musical into an anime film. Golden is a classic Broadway I want song. I like that. That's interesting. Golden hiding Now I'm shining like a bona fiend. I actually interviewed one of the songwriters who came from Broadway, and he talked to me about how you really had to work hard to make Broadway song structure work. In K pop song structure, it's hard to do. They pulled it off. So I admire it for that.

[A]

Yeah. For both of you. I mean, just looking back at the year, looking back at the mood, just where you two found yourselves psychologically and emotionally. What were you looking for in art? And what do you find yourself thinking about as we're heading into a new year? What are you looking for in the things that you spend your free time consuming?

[B]

I'm not looking for nostalgia, personally. Like, I don't need everything to reinvent the wheel or to be like the maximalization of all things all the time in order for it to be remarkable. But I do want it to maybe take a risk. And I think that's why Sinners sticks out to me as, like, the highlight of my pop culture year is because it took a risk. And even if it, like, doesn't succeed 100% on all fronts, to me it is an enormously successful piece of art because it did something that so few artists are able to do, at least in like the mainstream right now.

[A]

Sam, what about for you?

[C]

I think, and Helen knows this, I just long for monoculture. I long for things that we can consume together and talk about together. Yes. And it feels like we've seen this thing happen since the rise of Trump and the rise of streaming and pandemic lockdown and front facing video. We have seen pop culture become less monoculture while national politics becomes the monoculture and the entertainment monoculture for the entire country. The only thing that I know all of my friends will be informed about on any given day is what Trump did. It's not gonna be on some album or some TV show. Because increasingly our versions of the Internet itself are different. The algorithm gives every individual person a different algorithm and a different front page of different things to like. And so I want something that we all watch and talk about, you know, I did not love the latest season of the White Lotus. I thought there were some great performances in it, but I had questions about the plot and the structure and who wins and who loses and the bait and switch of any of those episod. But the fact that, like, all my friends kind of watched it and talked about it made it okay. I just want more things that we enjoy together.

[A]

Yeah. It doesn't even necessarily need to be good or the bad.

[C]

Exactly.

[A]

It's just the togetherness of it. Yeah.

[B]

I so agree with Sam. Like, the week around the release of Taylor Swift's album was actually really fun. Cause we were digging in because we were talking about it. We were having conversations about it that were legible to a lot of people. And I wish for more of that.

[C]

Bring back monoculture.

[B]

I love it. We're like, we hated these things that were directed at the monoculture, but also bring back monoculture.

[C]

Bring it back.

[A]

Bring back the monoculture. I'm really into this. Thank you both so much. This was really, really fun. It was fun to look back on a year that, while it had some disappointing moments in it, there's always something to find that you love and that you take with you.

[B]

It was a pleasure to do it with you.

[A]

We'll include links to the Sam Sanders show and Culture study on our show notes page. And thank you to all of our listeners who sent in voice memos with their favorite pieces of art and culture from 2025. It was really fun to listen to what's moving you and making you think. Every weekend, you can find new episodes of Apple News in conversation in the Apple News app. Just tap on the audio tab. That's the little headphones at the bottom to it.