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- [00:01]
A
Hey there. Sam Sanders here. Before we start today's episode, I have a question for you. We are working on an episode about men in America today. There's a big gap between the men we're told we should be and the men we actually are. We want to hear about that gap from you. Tell us about a moment when you felt it. Maybe it was something you were taught about being a man that never quite fit. Maybe it's a standard you've been held to by your family, your culture, your own expectations that you've never been able or never wanted to meet. Use your iPhone's Voice Memos app to record yourself. Tell us your name, where you're from, and your story. Please try to keep it to about a minute or less and then send it to us. We're@inconversationpple.com we might include your voice on the show. Thanks. This is in conversation from apple news. I'm sam sanders in for shamita basset. Today, what an american pope means for the u.s. We are approaching the first anniversary of Pope Leo XIV becoming the first American pope in history. It was a moment that many people didn't see coming.
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Growing up as a Catholic, you were told there was never going to be an American pope. The church would never want to give that level of power to an American because the country is already front and center.
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A
That's Scott Detrow. He's a host of NPR's All Things Considered, and he's currently working on a biography of Pope Leo out this fall.
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B
And then all of a sudden, I'm broadcasting the conclave live for npr.
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A
Abe must papa.
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B
And I'm announcing that the pope is a guy from Chicago. And it was just like the most shocking, surprising, exciting feeling I'd ever had on the radio as a profess.
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A
Pope Leo's first year as pope has been relatively calm and gone without controversy. But in recent weeks, he's drawn the ire of President Trump for criticizing the U.S. s war on Iran. That critique has given Pope Leo a lot of new attention on the political stage. So I wanted to talk to Scott about just how much power the pope has in America, recent shifts within the Catholic Church, and the ways Catholicism does and does not intersect with American politics. Let's talk about the significance of the pope being American and what his background is, because he is American, but he spent a ton of time in Latin America. But let's get to this whole year Mark thing. He has been, can we say, in office for about a year.
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B
Yeah. May 8th, he's elected yeah.
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A
And at this year, Mark, the biggest news of his first year is a bit of a Tiffany with Donald Trump. Pope Leo and Trump are fighting. What are they fighting about?
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B
Well, I think Pope Leo actually made it clear recently that in his mind, he's not fighting with Donald Trump.
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A
Okay.
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B
He's like, look, you're presenting this as me versus the President. I've got other stuff to do. This has all happened as Pope Leo has been on this really ambitious 10 day trip through Africa, which many people see as the future of the church. The African continent, the South American continent. That is where people are joining the church. That is where the church is growing. That is where it's most vibrant. But of course, this came up, and it came up because he has been really forceful about the Iran war. He's been really outspoken and not just issuing statements, which I think is interesting, because throughout his life, Robert Prevost now, Pope Leo has been a really cautious figure and has not engaged with the media that much. But as pope, once a week, he will walk in front of reporters and kind of do what we call a gaggle, right? Like you see like a senator or presidential candidate or a president do like just kind of walking up to a bunch of microphones outside his vacation house, Castle Gandolfo, which is one of my favorite words to say in Pope world. And he'll answer questions and people ask him, what do you think about Trump doing this? What do you think about Trump doing this? And then he's been clear cut, especially at that moment when Trump talked about, basically, however he put it, destroying all of Iran with attacks. Leo said, this is not acceptable. You cannot do that. This is wrong.
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Attacks on civilian infrastructure is against international law, but that it is also a sign of the hatred, the division, the destruction the human being is capable of.
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B
And Trump, as he always does when somebody criticizes him, attacked him and made it personal and then wouldn't let it go.
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A
I'm not a big fan of Pope Leo. He's a very liberal person and he's a man that doesn't believe in stopping crime.
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B
And I think in a lot of ways it really backfired on Trump in a way that we haven't actually seen that much when he picks a fight with people. And that's been what's been interesting to me.
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A
Let's talk more about that because it seems as if a lot of American Catholics in this back and forth between Trump and the Pope, they're taking the side of the Pope.
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B
Yeah.
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A
What is the Catholic Church's response to this within America, this fight.
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B
I think one of Trump's political superpowers is that when he engages somebody in a fight, two things happen. One, he kind of, like, crunches it down into this me versus you back and forth, like this beef, this feud type. Whereas if somebody took, like, a really nuanced position and saying, you're wrong for all these different ways, it becomes like, I hate you, you hate me. And like, nobody kind of listens to the original criticism. And two, he kind of takes any figure and diminishes them to, like, a very political figure. And I think that Leo has been able to rise above that, at least for now. Why? Leo's really popular for a few reasons. Personally, I think Leo is a very cautious person. He thinks through what he's gonna say before he says it.
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A
And he thinks even at the gaggles,
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B
even in the gaggles, he's always very deliberate. He's not gonna be pushed into saying something he doesn't wanna say. And he's running the tapes to the end of, like, if I say this, that will happen, then this will happen, then that will happen, you know, and going on and on. So he's very careful. He's very, I think, confident in himself and his own beliefs, and he doesn't kind of feel the temptation that a lot of Trump opponents we've seen through the years take to try and, like, play on Trump's level, you know? And I think the other thing going on is that Pope Francis was this powerful figure in the Catholic Church.
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A
He was the last pope, last pope.
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B
He changed the church in a lot of different ways, but he was kind of viewed as a progressive, as a liberal. And a lot of conservative Catholics, at the end, didn't really appreciate what he was trying to do with his papacy. So far, Pope Leo has really tried to be right down the middle and to bring conservatives along and to bring liberals along, and he succeeded at doing that. You know, he has a lot of the same kind of policy goals as Pope Francis before Iran. He was really outspoken on immigration and saying that the Trump administration policy was wrong and immoral. But at the same time, he knows in ways that, like, Pope Francis would just dismiss it. A lot of conservatives, a lot of traditionalist Catholics, care about the traditions, care about the ceremonies, care about, like, the pomp and circumstances of the Mass. And Pope Francis was like, yeah, whatever, I don't care. But Pope Leo does. And you see him kind of wear the more formal vestments and take part in the more kind of High Mass type ceremonies, and among other things he's done. Conservatives really like him as well. He's got really high approval ratings from all aspects of the Church. I talked a lot to Cardinal Timothy Dolan, who is no longer the Archbishop of New York, but he was for a long time. He was the most important American cardinal for a while. And he was a conservative. He's an ally of Donald Trump. And he talked about one of the appeals that people like him had, why they liked Pope Leo was that they were like, we want somebody who's thoughtful, who's deliberative, who's kind of organized and taking this through in the methodical way that they felt like Francis didn't always have. So they liked that. And like, yeah, you can't underestimate the fact that at least in America, it goes a long way when you're like, I like baseball, the Pope likes baseball. I like to eat Peeps. The Pope eats Peeps. I play Pope eats world. Pope loves peeps. He loves peeps. Wow. And people have like gotten that. He loves. I hate peeps. Peeps is disgusting.
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They're.
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B
I don't know how you feel about that.
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Yes. It's not food.
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It's not good. It's not good. The Pope, for whatever reason, really loves Peeps.
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A
I did know that. Also, he like. Doesn't he play wordle with his brother every day?
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B
Yeah, every deck he plays a little with his brother.
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A
That's so sweet.
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B
He's on Duolingo. Like, he's also. It's funny cause my wife is not Catholic, wasn't raised Catholic. And talking to her, you'll see these different mindsets where I'm like, can you believe The Pope's on WhatsApp? And she's like, yeah, cuz he's a human being. And I'm like, no, it's the Pope, but he's on WhatsApp. It's crazy, you know, but like, I think there's a lot of relatability and that goes a long way. And the fact that he's not being a partisan flamethrower, he's just kind of saying like, this is what I believe and I don't feel bad about it. And this is what. It's not just what I believe. This is what Jesus says and this is what the Bible says, and I'm not gonna back down.
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A
Yeah. You know, it would be really easy to see the back and forth between Donald Trump and Pope Leo and just assume that the Pope is liberal because he is in direct conflict with Trump, who is head of the Republican Party. But in actuality, his politics and the Pope's politics in general, they can't really be defined. And strict American conservative or liberal terms. How would you sum up, if you had to, in clear language, what Pope Leo's politics actually are?
- [09:28]
B
My favorite moment that kind of crystallizes all of this. It happened actually right around the time that you and I first met, more than 10 years ago, when Pope Francis came to the United States and he gave this speech in front of Congress, and he absolutely knew what he was doing. And he kind of trolled everybody in the chamber because he's giving the speech and he says, it's so important to be pro life. I'm pro life.
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The Golden Rule also reminds us of our responsibility to protect and defend human life at every stage of its development.
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B
And all the Republicans get up and clap. And he says, and that's why I oppose the death penalty.
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This conviction has led me from the beginning of my ministry to advocate on different levels, the global abolition of the death penalty.
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B
And then all the Democrats get off and clap. And I was like, oh, I see what you did there.
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A
Interesting. A needle was threaded.
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B
Yeah. So it's like there are core Catholic beliefs that line up with the Republican Party, like abortion. No exceptions, clear cut rule. Abortion is wrong.
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A
Yes. And all popes have been in that boat.
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B
Yeah. The church's official position, which many Catholics ignore, is that all contraception is wrong.
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A
You know, and that's still the official stance.
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B
Still the official stance, still by and large ignored by many Catholics. But also a core Christian belief is being kind to the immigrant, welcoming the stranger, being welcoming and open and bringing somebody in, like helping somebody along. And there has been a clear cut opposition to Trump's immigration policy going back to the first time he's the White House, continuing even more so this time in the White House, you have seen front and center opposing these ICE raids. Catholic cardinals, you know, like, standing in the streets marching, saying, this is wrong.
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A
That's what Catholic churches are housing immigrants in many American cities.
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B
Exactly, exactly. And you're seeing that. And I think it kind of depends what the politics of the moment are, whether it feels like the church is on one side or another side, even though it's multifaceted. But I know for a fact that this immigration policy is something that deeply upsets Pope Leo. When you see cardinals like Blaise Cupich, the cardinal in Chicago, making statements, Families
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A
are being torn apart, children are left in fear, and communities are shaken by immigration raids and detentions. These actions wound the soul of our city. Let me be clear. The church stands with migrants.
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B
It's clear that they are clearing it with the Pope before they go and speak so forcefully against the American president. Like, he supports all of that. And I know that when he was a bishop in Peru, that was at the beginning of the big Venezuelan migrant crisis that kind of made its way to the United States, but affected all of Central and South America. And he worked really hard to help Venezuelan migrants in his city. He helped them financially, he helped them medically, but he also. He would work with people. People me, that he would say, we need to make sure that we're countering this anti immigrant bias that's flaring up. And they would have conversations about how can we kind of document these Venezuelan migrants doing good works, doing community service around the city so that people feel like they're part of the community and they're not as ostracized as the others. So this is something he cares deeply about.
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A
Yeah. It is really hard to pin down the Pope's politics in general, at least in the American two party context. But one thing that's been pretty easy to pin down politically is this recent surge in new Catholic converts. A lot of them are conservatives.
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B
Mm. It's interesting. It's happening on the liberal side as well. And these are kind of two different things going on. And we could talk about it, but it's definitely a real thing where you're seeing a lot of younger people, a lot of younger conservatives, especially being drawn to the Catholic Church.
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A
And how long has that been a thing? Cause I've been seeing articles and stories about it.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Is there a moment at which it started?
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B
I feel like it's been a slow build over the last decade or so, and I think actually Vice President Vance is part of that build. Despite being a big part of the beef with Pope Leo over the past week and saying that the Pope needs to be careful speaking about theology, which was an interesting thing to say.
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In the same way that it's important
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for the Vice President, United States, to be careful when I talk about matters of public policy. I think it's very, very important for the Pope to be careful when he talks about matters of theology. J.D. vance is about to publish a book about his conversion to Catholicism. He wrote a long, thoughtful, interesting article about it several years ago. And he expressed this feeling that I think a lot of conservatives feel. And actually, I think a lot of people in different ways, across all political persuasions, feel right now like the world is so inconsistent and shifting right now, and there's so much uncertainty. And I think whether it's the economy or artificial intelligence or 70,000 other things, it just feels like a very uncertain moment. And I feel like a lot of people seem to be drawn to this institution in this moment that's been around for 2,000 years. And it's been pretty steady over the course of those 2,000 years, sometimes to the great frustration of its members. Like when you look at a church, a physical church, that you can say this church is three times as old as America. Right? You know, when you look at the ceremonies and the circumstances and you can say this is a relatively new adaptation of the Catholic church, it's only 400 years old. You know, I think there's a lot of appeal to that solid base for a lot of people. And I think that's part of what's driving it. It seems like a lot of people are literally drawn to the kind of the High Mass ceremonies and traditions, which is interesting because in the 1960s, the Catholic Church totally blew all of that up with something called Vatican ii. It was this multi year process where church leaders, Pope John XXIII started this. He said, the church needs a breath of fresh air. It needs to be brought into the 20th century. And they begin the process of instituting all of these changes. The most important one was that the Mass would no longer be said in Latin. The priest would not be saying Mass with his back faced to the congregation, which was the norm. And Pope Leo grows up in this world of a new, refreshed modern church. And that's when he becomes a priest. That's when he's going to seminary and he's going to the seminary school in Chicago in the late 1970s has got this big ridiculous bushy mustache at this period of time. And they're throwing all the doors, they're experimenting. Guitar Masses are in, folk masses are in. They're saying, this needs to be modern, this needs to be to the point, it needs to be on the ground. And you see that spirit carry for a couple decades and then the pendulum seems to be swinging back where people are saying, you know what? We liked the Latin, we liked the tradition, we like the connection to the Mass that was said in the year 976 or whatever. And we want to go back toward that. So there's times where I go to church in Washington D.C. and I see young women in their 20s sitting there wearing veils. When they go up to Communion, they kneel on the floor and present it for the priest to formally give them communion. Not touching their Hands practices that by and large went out of practice decades and decades ago seem to be on the resurgence for young conservatives right now.
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A
Yeah. There is a distinction in the Catholic Church about how to classify these newer converts in relation to folks who have been raised as lifelong Catholics. I hear there's two groups informally Cradle Catholics and Convert Catholics.
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B
Yeah, I think it's less of a church designation, but there's definitely, like, a cultural Catholicism that I feel like is a very real thing in the way that, like, cultural Judaism is. You know, whether it's like, I don't know, like in the Midwest, like Friday fresh fries are a big thing. Right. Like a big communal gathering. A whole bunch of other different things. I feel like that is real. And I think, like, there's been a lot of commentary of, like, people who are recent converts don't quite share that, but. But I also feel like, and I know for a fact that people who do convert to the faith as adults do it for very specific, intentional reasons. I actually went to church with my mom last night in New York City, and I saw one of these kind of buzzy congregations filled with people in their 20s that trend articles have been popping up about recently. And there were like three rows filled with people who had just finished the conversion process. Cause it all happens around Easter. And they were all in their 20s and they were all excited about it. It was clear it was like their main social hub. And it seemed like there this big energy that I had not seen a lot in the church before, and I thought it was really interesting.
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A
Yeah, yeah. Let's talk about some conservative Catholics in the White House. Even though Trump has been most publicly speaking out about the Pope and his comments on the war, among other things, we've seen J.D. vance do so as well. And J.D. vance is a Catholic himself. Marco Rubio, Secretary of State, also Catholic. How Catholic is the Trump administration?
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B
You could also add in the fact that the last time I checked, I think it's almost like 2/3 of the Supreme Court is Catholic.
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A
Really.
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B
I think it's a real factor in the Trump White House. And I think it kind of blends together with the way that the evangelical kind of angling of the Trump White House has been such a key part of the second term. Like the way that Trump talks so much in his acceptance speech in his inaugural address, and so many other parts about feeling like he personally was saved by God when he was shot, but not killed during his presidential run. Like, Trump has talked about it much more than he ever did before, and he is Surrounding himself with people who are kind of unapologetically hardline in their religious beliefs and unapologetic about putting it front policy. It's interesting. Just before this big blow up with Pope Leo happened, you saw something that I thought was pretty shocking in that department after department, whether it was the State Department, I think the Justice Department, the Agriculture Department, you had secretaries saying, issuing statements and blasting on social media, like, not just generic Easter greetings, but like, Christ is risen. You know, he is risen type, like, really specific religious messaging coming from government accounts. And there's this whole strain of like, the government should be more Judeo Christian. We should talk about our Christian beliefs.
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Beliefs.
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They fuel our policies. That's the kind of talk you're hearing from the Trump administration right now, despite the fact that the separation of church and state is a key, fundamental part of the founding of this country.
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A
Yeah, yeah. I'm glad that you brought up other evangelical sects of Christianity and how they're tied to American politics, because it seems as if, at least in the White House, there is a bit of overlap. Pete Hegseth, Secretary of War, who was an evangelical Christian, a very conservative one, a lot of his political ideology when it comes to religion doesn't seem too far away from that of J.D. vance.
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B
I think with Hegseth, the way that he delivers really evangelical prayers and frames what's going on in the Iran war in these kind of. Of almost crusader like terms I think is very striking and unprecedented.
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Almighty God, who trains our hands for
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war and our fingers for battle.
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You, who stirred the nations from the north against Babylon of old, making her land a desolation where none dwell. Behold now the wicked who rise against your justice and the peace of the righteous, snap the rod of the oppressor, frustrate the wicked plans, and break the teeth of the ungodly.
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B
There's this kind of unapologetic, hardline conservative view of religion that is driving a lot of the Trump administration's policies right now. And I think that's something you're gonna see continuing in the Republican Party and the conservative movement after Trump leaves office, because it seems to be a really powerful driver for younger conservatives, specifically.
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A
Yeah, it's a really interesting time to try to figure out what the Catholic vote does in the midterms, because as you just outlined, some of the leading folks in Trump's White House are Catholic, but they are all a certain kind of conservative Catholic that in many ways stands in opposition to what the Pope is talking about right now.
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B
I mean, yeah, absolutely. Especially on the issues that Pope Leo has prioritized and President Trump has prioritized, immigration, the war with Iran, things like that. Like there is a clear divide when it comes to those specific issues that are front and center right now.
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A
Yeah. So then if that divide exists, what do we think happens to Catholic voters as they go to the ballot box this November?
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B
If you look from election to election, I feel like the Catholic vote generally kind of breaks down along the lines of the broader vote as a whole. And I think especially if you look at the way that the Catholic voting population as a whole kind of drifts, similar to the way that you see, like, suburban voters drift from election to election, I think that if there is another shift back toward the Democratic side, fueled by kind of discomfort with the Iran war, discomfort with Trump's immigration policies, I mean, I think that would be very bad news for Republicans in November.
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A
You know, so much of this tension between Donald Trump and Pope Leo, between various subsets of American Catholics, it seems to be all about who has ownership of God, essentially, and who has ownership over interpretations of the Bible. Even the image of Jesus, as we've seen play out on Donald Trump social media. You're a lifelong Catholic. How are you navigating this tension as a reporter, watching all of this play out?
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B
I think for a long period of time, to me, at least, speaking from personal opinion, I feel like public conversation about Christianity specifically almost got kind of like the evangelical movement kind of took full ownership of it to feel like. Like, if you couldn't talk about God, you couldn't talk about Jesus unless you were talking in this evangelical lane. And there was a period of time where I felt like for a variety of reasons, I kept my religion and my religious views to myself. And I wanna interpose my own personal thinking on kind of broader trends. But I have felt that change over the last few years, and it's become something I've been a lot more open about. And I think I've seen a lot of other people across the country take that step as well. And I think that's a good thing. If it's not just evangelicals driving the conversation when it comes to religion and politics. Right. Like, if the Catholic Church, which has tried to be nonpartisan, if not apolitical for a long period of time, is taking these forceful stands and driving the public conversation just as much as other denominations, I think that's a good thing for the religious conversation. And when it comes to the question of who owns God, who owns Jesus, like you put it, that's Something that's really important to Pope Leo inside and outside of the political realm. He is somebody who, throughout his life as a priest, has said, it's not just the priests who get to say what's what. It's not just the bishops who get to say what's what. It's everybody who comes to church. It's everybody who believes in God. And you would see in small ways and big ways, ways that he would delegate responsibility and bring people on board and say, like, this is a really important thing I need done. I'm not gonna ask a priest. I'm gonna ask this woman who. This is a lay woman who doesn't have any official role in the Church other than the fact that I know her and trust her. And I'm gonna put her in charge of this really big project and do that again and again. And you're seeing him do it kind of on an international level now.
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A
It is also very interesting to think about what the Pope and the Catholic Church's larger ambitions are. And it might be bigger than America at this point. You, the new converts, the large numbers of them are coming from places like Africa and not North America. And the Pope has even said that he is not going to be in America for our big 250th anniversary party. He was invited, and he's not coming.
- [26:07]
B
He's not coming. And he's made it clear that he has other countries he wants to visit first. Remember that Pope Leo, born in Chicago, raised like 100 yards south of the Chicago city line. He's a Midwesterner. He talks like a Midwesterner. Right. But he is a Peruvian citizen as well. He has dual citizenship with Peru. He has a deep affinity for Peru. And I think it's not a surprise that this is the second Pope in a row with deep ties to South America, because that is where the heart of the Church is right now. And that's a reason why Pope Francis continued to elevate Leo throughout his career, naming him a bishop, pulling him to Rome to be in charge of helping Nathan, other bishops, which is a very important role. But I think as part of that dynamic, I think Pope Leo is looking at the world as a whole. He's not obsessed with America. But the fact that this American pope knows American politics, I think is a new factor. Like Pope Francis would critique President Trump, but it was clear that he wasn't deeply familiar with the way that American politics works. Pope Leo has voted in presidential elections. He has written letters to governors. He's somebody who gets the system. And I think that's different. And I think the fact that he will go to a microphone and a camera and speak in English because he's fluent in multiple languages, I think he's doing that knowing that that's going to register when he wants to speak out. He knows how to say it in a way that people in America are gonna pay attention.
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A
Yeah. If you could interview the Pope, which
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B
I've tried aggressively over the past year. Yes.
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A
What would be the first question you ask him?
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B
I mean, I think it's kind of what we've been talking about. Like you have this position and you can have it as long as you want, as long as you stay healthy. Right. Like, it is clear to me he is thinking in 10 year and 20 year terms, and I want to know what those specific goals are. Like, where does he want this church to be 10 years from now, 20 years from now? How much does he want it to be integrated into the politics of the world? How much is he trying to balance the needs of the Western Church versus the growing church in Africa and South America and places like that? I guess I've just like started to list 20 questions right now. But like, what specifically do you want the outcome of your Papacy to be? Cause I think he's really intentional about that. I think he has a plan, but he hasn't fully revealed that plan to the world. And I really wanna know what it is.
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A
So the question is, Pope Leo, what's your plan?
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B
What's your plan? What are you trying to do here? Regardless of who the Pope is, it is the central global figure that can command attention, that can deliver a message that I think most other religions do not have. You know, like this Pope can step on a balcony in this beautiful setting and know that like a billion plus people are listening and watching at any moment. And that's just like a really powerful position. And he has this massive microphone and he can issue social media posts, he can give press conferences, he can give speeches, but he can also issue Church doctrine by writing like a formal document called an encyclical, which I think in the coming months we're expecting him to weigh in on artificial intelligence, which I think will be really welcome, because I think you would agree that perhaps morality has not been front and center in AI development so far. Yeah, this is a tech literate Pope who wants to weigh on an artificial intelligence. That's one of the reasons why he picked the name Leo, because Pope Leo XIII really issued key documents trying to frame the morality of the Industrial Revolution. And he wants to do the same. Yeah. So, like, I think kind of to twist on what, what your question is, I want to know what's in that document, how clear cut is going to be, how much is he going to engage with, like the realities of economic competition, what people are trying to do with AI versus, like broader philosophical goals? Like how is he trying to shape something that is rapidly going to affect all of our lives that doesn't seem to have morals baked into it? And will people listen?
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A
Mm. Yeah. I will say as a non Catholic who went to Catholic school as a kid, I have one question for Pope Leo. Why did y' all change the Mass from saying peace be with you? And also with you? It's so nice.
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It is.
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I like that phrasing. Now they say something else. Scott, what do they say?
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B
And with your spirit.
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A
Oh, my goodness. No, Pope, we gotta fix it. Scott Detrow, thank you so much for your time. Peace be with you.
- [30:19]
B
And also with you, Sam, it's good to talk to you again.
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A
Scott Detrow co authored American Pope Leo XIV's rode from the south side of Chicago to Vatican City with his NPR colleague Daniel Berg. It's available for pre order on Apple Books. We'll include a link on our Show Notes page. And every weekend you can find new episodes of Apple News in conversation in the Apple News app. Just tap on the audio tab, those little headphones at the bottom, to find.