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- [00:04]
A
This is in conversation from Apple News. I'm Sam Sanders in for Shumita Basu Today, how the Oscars actually work and why we still love them. Anyway, At last year's Oscars, a small independent film called Honora won best picture on stage. Producer Alex Coco underscored just how small that film's budget was compared to a lot of other nominees. Thank you guys so much. Thank you to the Academy. We made this movie for $6 million, shooting all. What Coco didn't mention is how much more money the Anora team spent to win its Oscars behind the scenes. The marketing, distribution and awards campaign for Enora reportedly cost around $18 million. That's almost three times the film's production. Awards season isn't just about making the art. It's about strategy. Months of screenings, Q&As, festival stops for your consideration, ads, private receptions. And this is all aimed at a relatively small group of people, the roughly 11,000 members of the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences. Turns out Honora's price tag is not that unusual.
- [01:22]
B
Just the size of award season, the way that the Academy voters are now spread around the world, the amount of events and festivals and tastemaker screenings and smaller award ceremonies. You gotta get your people in as many locations as possible.
- [01:36]
A
That's Katie Rich. She's been covering the entertainment industry and the Oscars for years. She's the awards editor at the Ankler, an entertainment business newsletter, and she hosts the podcast Prestige Junkie. With the Oscars coming up on March 15, I sat down with Katy to break down how these campaigns work, what she makes of this year's nominees, and why. The Oscars, regardless of what we think of them, probably aren't going anywhere. You know, I call this awards season because, like, it's very long. It is a season with, like, beats and moments and a whole arc for these movies. It is massive, it is expensive. And I want to try and unpack what that Oscar industrial complex, what it's made of. It feels eerily similar to a political campaign. And a thing that everyone talks about in that world is like, how much did you have to spend to get one vote? Yeah, same question to you for the Oscars. Let's math it.
- [02:36]
B
Yeah.
- [02:37]
A
Nora spent $18 million to win Best Picture. What's that cost per vote?
- [02:43]
B
Okay, so you've got like 11,000 members, roughly, so you imagine. And it has to get more than 50%. So there's a whole ballot process, let's say. So that's 6,000 votes divided by $18 million.
- [02:54]
A
How many zeros are a million? 18 million. Divided by 6,000.
- [02:59]
B
6,000, sure. This is very back of the envelope math.
- [03:02]
A
$3,000 a vote.
- [03:05]
B
$3,000. But it also won best actress. It also won best director. So that's a lot of, you know, the value continues to add.
- [03:13]
A
That's wild. So let's dig in a little more on who these Academy voters are. Every year there is chatter about who these people are and whether they are the best representation for the film going public or for the film industry. I remember the Oscars. So white controversy from, gosh, almost a decade ago that led to a widening of the ranks to a diversification of the ranks. Right. Now, if you had to describe it, what is this body? How big is it? Who are they? And it's more than what it was, right?
- [03:46]
B
Yeah. The oscars maybe even 10 years ago had about half as many members as it does now. The academy, about 6,000 people. It's now around 11,000. And every, every year they invite a new class of people to join the Academy and you.
- [03:59]
A
So they add to it every year,
- [04:00]
B
add to it every year.
- [04:00]
A
The ones who have been there forever, they don't have to leave until they.
- [04:02]
B
No, you're. You're in it. You're in. You're in it for life. There are rules about how to stay an active voter. There are people who are moved into a merit of status if they haven't worked in the industry in long enough or have.
- [04:14]
A
There's a lot of folks right now because there's no jobs. That's true.
- [04:16]
B
I think they make it so that if you're like active and participating that you can stick around. They don't want to kick you off the rolls. But there certainly had been an issue around the Oscars. So white era of people who hadn't worked in the industry in decades might have returned to God knows where, but we're still voting. And so they're trying to make it representative of people who are working in the global film industry. So they are way more internationally spread than they used to be.
- [04:38]
A
20% are international, correct?
- [04:40]
B
Yeah, it's something like that.
- [04:41]
A
So, yeah, if you're having events, trying to get as many votes as you can, you have to go find these international voters where they are.
- [04:47]
B
Absolutely. They have, you know, a lot of more things in London. The BAFTA awards are a huge stop for that or the London Film Festival, because these Oscar campaigns, especially to get nominations, which we can talk about how that works. Like it really come down to just a couple dozen votes.
- [05:01]
A
Well, this is what's so crazy, all of the writing about how these campaign seasons work. The margins are so small, sometimes you're looking for less than 200 votes or a few dozen.
- [05:12]
B
Yeah.
- [05:13]
A
And you mentioned the process to nominate. It is different from the process to vote for the final films that win. And that kind of dictates the level of focus and how that happens too, right?
- [05:22]
B
Yeah, yeah. So you've got, I think, 19 branches of the Academy and that's art directors. Casting actors is one of the biggest ones. It's over 1,000 people. Costume designers, I think is only a couple hundred people. And, you know, depending on the size of the branches, it really can just be a small group that you need to sway things in your favor.
- [05:38]
A
Because the branch sets a nomination.
- [05:40]
B
Yes. Yeah. So each branch votes for the winners in their own category and then everyone votes for best picture. So the best picture thing, everyone gets a say but costume designers. Only costume designers get to pick the costume nominees. So, like this year, Deborah L. Scott got nominated for Avatar, which was a real surprise for a lot of people, which.
- [05:56]
A
Can we pause? I thought that film was all cgi.
- [05:58]
B
It is, but she makes these real costumes for them to then scan digitally. And I did an event with them, actually, and they had the costumes on display and you see this incredible detail. And so because the costume branch is kind of small, they were able to bring these people to these events to show them the costumes to kind of have that one on one access. And she got the nomination, which she really deserved. But I don't think the broader academy would have known that the work she did qualified like that.
- [06:24]
A
Yeah. You know, these screenings that these films are holding to get Academy voters to watch the films, they're not just screenings. Vanity Fair covered this extensively. There was an elaborate Victorian style fair complete with hot air balloons when Amazon was pushing the aeronauts.
- [06:45]
B
Sounds about right.
- [06:45]
A
When Billie Eilish wanted her theme from a James Bond movie to win, they sent signed sheet music that Billie signed herself. What is the most epic Oscars season screening you've ever seen?
- [07:02]
B
Yeah, I mean, I think the spectacle can vary depending on who's doing it. Netflix can often for their level of spectacle. There are also really strict rules about when you're allowed to feed people, what kind of party you're allowed to have. So I'm thinking about like, Netflix premiered Jake Kelly at the New York Film Festival in September. Jake Kelly.
- [07:20]
A
Haven't heard that film name in a few weeks.
- [07:23]
B
Months back from the dead. I mean, Netflix famously spends a lot of money on these things. And I think this wasn't even an official campaign event, but they had an after party for the New York Film Festival premiere at the Polo Lounge in New York. You know, the very fancy underground, like Ralph Lauren. Yeah, it's really hard to get into unless Netflix is getting you in. That's not crazy. That's not hot air balloons. But that kind of tells you, like, leverage, access. Do something that people want to show up for, and you will get the attention that you want.
- [07:49]
A
I mean, just recently, the Academy announced that Academy voters actually have to watch the films that they vote on.
- [07:55]
B
I know.
- [07:56]
A
Please explain this to me, Katie.
- [07:57]
B
Rich. I mean, it's always been an assumed thing, right? Like you're supposed to only vote for something that you actually watch. But now, basically, they just set up a system in the ballot where you have to click a button that says, yes, I saw this. So it's just one extra. It's an honor.
- [08:09]
A
That's an honor.
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B
It's an honor system. I don't know how they could do
- [08:12]
A
that because Hollywood's so honorable.
- [08:14]
B
Well, back in the day, you used to be able to keep track of attendance at screenings. And certainly they still do. You know, if you ask the people running these campaigns, they have a spreadsheet. They are keeping track of who has seen stuff where. But if they're watching it on the, you know, the portal that, you know, the Academy members have access to this app where they can see everything. It's incredible. I'm so jealous of it. So they can sort of see if it's there, but what if they saw it at a festival? What if they wouldn't watch it at their friend's house? What if they bought a ticket and saw it at amc? It just kind of falls apart after a while. I unfortunately don't think we'll ever know actually how many people watch the movies.
- [08:46]
A
So we've talked a lot about the modern Oscars race as we know it, but it wasn't always like this. There is a moment that people say turned the tide and led us to where we are now. Let's flashback to 1999, the heyday of Harvey Weinstein and the battle for best Picture. And the Oscar goes to. Between Saving Private Ryan and Shakespeare in Love. Shakespeare in Love. It all goes back to there, huh?
- [09:17]
B
I mean, in some ways, yeah. I mean, the Weinsteins had been a force at the Oscars already. You know, Pulp Fiction comes in and makes it into Best Picture. Il Postino gets in the mix, really throwing it back. But Shakespeare in Love kind of took people by surprise. I don't think anyone was prepared for how Harvey Weinstein was gonna come in and just pound the payment, being kind of shameless about it. You know, there had been this old school idea that it's, like, not that dignified to campaign for an Oscar, which, I mean, it's not like there's a point to that, but being able to access photos, buttonhole them, talk to them. There's kind of a whisper campaign. People accused Harvey Weinstein of going around town being like, well, Saving Private Ryan peaks after the first 20 minutes, which is just basic gossip, but it had that effect on it. And the people who worked on the Saving Private Ryan campaign, you see interviews they've done since it, and they're all just kind of like, astonished and like, it was just rude that he managed to pull that off. And then he did, and it totally worked. And they got Gwyneth Paltrow that Oscar, and just one of the bigger, surprising Best Picture wins that I can remember. As an Oscar viewer.
- [10:14]
A
What was the craziest thing Weinstein did during that Oscar season?
- [10:17]
B
I mean, it was definitely, like, going around and kind of impugning the way that it captured World War II. Like, I think it was after that that he got to the point of, like, publishing negative stories about other films. Like, there was a thing a couple years later about A Beautiful Mind where they were questioning whether the person Russell Crowe played in the movie was, like, secretly a Nazi. Oh, it got really ugly after a while. But I think Shakespeare in Love was kind of the first time seeds of that. And it was so successful in that he managed to topple this movie that had just seemed like such a guaranteed winner until all of a sudden it wasn't. And a lot of Weinstein's tactics have kind of made it into the Oscar season Groundwater, like a lot of people are still doing a lot of the same kind of stuff that he pioneered. Not in the same bullying way, not with the abusive behavior behind the scenes, obviously, but he kind of proved you could break this seal of respectability around Oscar campaigning. And it's never really gone back since then.
- [11:12]
A
So be honest with me, Katie Rich. You cover this world.
- [11:15]
B
Yeah.
- [11:15]
A
Is that the best way to pick the best pictures in the. In the universe?
- [11:19]
B
The best. That part is really, really hard because I don't think I ever have loved the Oscars thinking that that is the way that you're going to get the absolute best movie, because who's to say what's the best movie? Like, what I think Is the best movie of the year is gonna be really different from what my parents think or, you know, some of these people who vote in the academy who are in their 80s and 90s and, you know, have been there for 50 years and have wildly different tastes. And sometimes that's a problem we get into in Oscar years where kind of the more old school academy members have a really different idea of what the best movie of the year is. You throw it back to Brokeback Mountain and Crash. But an even more recent example, the
- [11:53]
A
Cane speech and the Social Network.
- [11:54]
B
Yep. Yeah. Green book.
- [11:56]
A
Green book.
- [11:56]
B
Why y. It hasn't been that long since that. So best is such a subjective thing. But you have this system, this huge, probably too big system to get people to like your movie and to remember it, to get it to the top
- [12:10]
A
of mind and sometimes to even watch it.
- [12:11]
B
Just even watch it. Absolutely. You know, the reason that Neon spends that money on is because that's a tiny movie that won't get seen without this big engine of Oscar season behind it. So if you're Sean Baker and you made a Nora and you want people to see movies in theaters and you want to keep making movies, you know that every extra interview you do and pound that pavement, even if it's not even helping you win the award, it's just getting the attention for your movie that it can't get otherwise.
- [12:36]
A
Yeah. I'm so glad we went back to Anora, because I gotta ask. We're about a year out from Honora winning Best Picture, getting Best Director, getting Best Actress. And most people I know who are in my life outside of Los Angeles and the industry haven't watched this movie, does it actually work? If the goal is just to get the most people to watch the most movies, hopefully good ones. When you look at Anora and how that all worked out, is this working?
- [13:11]
B
It got more people to watch an aura, and more people watched the Brutalist or A Complete Unknown or Emilia Perez. Everyone had already seen Wicked last year, got that nomination. So there's an important pendulum to it. Some years you're gonna get some big box office hit. I think we need those to keep it alive. Cause the Oscars can trend so far away from it. I mean, Parasite was a big box office hit. Like it didn't make Oppenheimer money, but it did really, really well for itself. And also with Honora, we're in this era now where smaller movies like that, people will rent them. By the time the Oscars come around, they'll realize they can watch it at Home.
- [13:45]
A
Yeah.
- [13:45]
B
I think the Oscar race is in support of great movies. You're getting people like Jafar Panahi, a filmmaker who's been imprisoned in his native Iran twice. Still getting out there making these movies in secret. He's been everywhere. He is going to all these campaign stops. I saw him at the Middleburg Film Festival.
- [14:03]
A
Just the Middleburg. Where is that?
- [14:05]
B
Virginia. Like, I feel like he had a look at it being like, how am I here? What is going on? And I've gotten to interview him multiple times. It feels kind of like a miracle. Or like the secret agent, you know, clever Mendojo Filho, who's the director, has made odd experimental films in Brazil and is now on this huge national stage. And people love to talk to him. So there's this ability to lift up genuinely great art that gets really overlooked with, like, when you talk about Weinstein tactics or when you are watching someone chitchat at a reception for the tenth time that day. But it is in the service of this greater good that I. I can't of that being part of it. And I think most of the people who participate in the system do believe on that in some level as well.
- [14:49]
A
Yeah. This is the thing about it. I love to complain about this whole shebang, but if you take it away, imagine $18 million spend just for Honora. Multiply that by all the films trying to get Oscars. If you take that away, you lose thousands of jobs in this city.
- [15:06]
B
Yeah, it's employing caterers, florists, hairstylists, drivers, set builders. Like, I mean, after the fires last year when they had to postpone all these award season events, I think it was something that was really discussed is that the LA film industry and people adjacent to it had already been suffering so much. And you take things like that away, they feel really silly. They employ a ton of people. Like, I went to the Directors Guild Awards and the people at my table work on the Price Is Right, which was fascinating. And they knew all the crew that was making the DGA Awards was, you know, running the inside cameras because they're all just LA crew people.
- [15:39]
A
And it's really vital in this moment where a bunch of TV and film production keeps leaving California.
- [15:44]
B
Exactly. I mean, you know, the Oscars are so international, so we're talking about the Brazilian, the Iranian, you know, the British film industry. So that's part of it too. But yes, the LA part of it, especially for all these ancillary smaller awards that might seem really goofy, have a huge economic impact that I don't Think anyone should lightly get rid of.
- [16:02]
A
Yeah. So that is. That is the awards circuit. Awards beasts that we live in. Let's talk now about the actual awards that are happening very soon for I think a pretty good crop of films.
- [16:15]
B
Yeah, I agree.
- [16:15]
A
Who's the front runner right now for Best Picture?
- [16:17]
B
It feels like it's between one battle after another and Sinners, which is fascinating
- [16:21]
A
because Sinners might take it.
- [16:22]
B
A lot of people agree with you. So they're from the same studio, which is totally fascinating. Sinners is the bigger box office hit. It's got more nominations. Broke the all time record for nominations, which is enormous. There are so many things working in its favor. It's also a vampire movie if you're putting Ryan Coogler and Paul Thomas Anderson head to head. I mean, first of all, they seem to have an immense amount of respect for each other, which is a great thing to see. They're both great filmmakers. Paul Thomas Anderson's been in the business longer, he's older. He has that kind of sense of being overdue. I think he's made the best film of his career. I love Creed. I don't know if I think Sinners is Ryan Coogler's best film. You might want to argue with me. I mean it's really terrific. So I think it's a fascinating head to head thing.
- [16:59]
A
Yeah. I will say, I think if you are looking at the trend lines and American film attendance, giving Sinners as many awards as possible is what you should do. This is a movie that is new ip. So Ryan got folks to show up for a totally new story that's kind of hard to explain.
- [17:20]
B
Sold on him.
- [17:21]
A
It's vampires, but it's craze. But it's also music. But it's also in the South. And it's a musical too.
- [17:26]
B
Period piece.
- [17:27]
A
Yeah, period piece. So he made new IP work and get butts in seats. He brought a cast to the screen that is not from central casting, that has all kinds of people of color driving the story and it worked for white viewers and all viewers alike. It checks every box of what Hollywood needs. And it's also a critically acclaimed film. Like why don't like it should be a no brainer.
- [17:53]
B
When you put it like that, it does sound like a no brainer. Are you not a One Battle fan or do you just think all the aspects of Sinners outweigh?
- [17:59]
A
Yeah, I liked One Battle. But I'm also just like. I increasingly am perplexed by a Hollywood, an elite Hollywood that usually finds it impossible to like good movies that everyday people also liked.
- [18:22]
B
Yes. Yeah. And that's an Oscar thing. Maybe even more than the rest of Hollywood. Right. You know, the, you know, 10 years ago spotlight wins Best Picture. When Mad Max Fury Road is right there, it wins like 6 Oscars, but not Best Picture. Cause it's too popular. And there's a world in which you can see, maybe Sinners wins Best Picture, but Paul Thomas Anderson wins Best Director. But that would be, I think, the third time, possibly more times, that a film by a black director has won Best Picture, but not Best Director, which is not great. There has never been a black Best Director winner.
- [18:50]
A
Yeah. Yeah. Another interesting thing about this year's Oscars race is a new category. It will be an award for casting direction. Yeah, it's exciting, Interesting, exciting. What should folks know about that award?
- [19:05]
B
So, yeah, so the casting category took a really long time to come about. Casting directors have worked with everybody. You know, anytime you interview a casting director, they're like, oh, I auditioned them 10 years ago and they weren't right for this. And then I brought them back for this thing. Actors love them because they are there. They're their advocates throughout. So many different things. And so in this category of five nominees, you've got, you know, some people who are a little bit newer in the business, like Cassandra Kulakundas, who cast One Battle after another. She's mostly only worked with Paul Thomas Anderson, the casting director. The Secret Agent obviously is based in Brazil, but you have people like Francine Masler who cast Sinners and just cast everything. Like, her list of credits is absolutely unbelievable. And then Nina Gold, who cast Hamnet, kind of similar, based in the uk, knows absolutely everyone. So it's this chance for these, like, real legends in the business who have built up so much goodwill to finally win an Oscar. I think most everyone thinks Francine Masler will win it. I interviewed her recently. She's totally fascinating. So it is interesting because it's not really an ensemble prize. You don't vote for the film that had, you know, the best lead actors, like Sentimental Value, which I think had good casting. But, you know, it's a small cast. The director is going to be the person who cast a lot of those people. But Sinners, you've got such a big cast. You get a discovery like Miles Cayton, you get all these smaller roles you're filling in the world of this juke joint. And I think she will win for having pulled off really the depth of that world.
- [20:27]
A
Yeah. What do you think may be the biggest upset come Oscars night, if there are any, I think with best picture and director Sinners or one Battle winning. Either way, it's not an upset like one of them will win and people are okay with that. Will there be other big surprises in
- [20:45]
B
the supporting actor race? It's really been up in the air all season. And then all of a sudden Sean Penn, who's in one battle after another, goes and wins the BAFTA award and then the actor award a week later, two big televised ceremonies, he doesn't show up, accept either award, which is an interesting move on his part. And then in the meantime, you have Delroy Lindo of Sinners. And I think that as a veteran of the industry who's never gotten this kind of recognition, he could be a real threat in that category.
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A
They give us our instruments back, they tell us to play stack. We played preaching boy. We played. You hear me? Music was coming out the windows. People on the street was stopping to come on in. That was a career achievement. One huge, huge. And he hasn't gotten enough.
- [21:27]
B
So that's my big upset prediction. I don't know if I'm conf. Like, I just keep reminding people it's possible because he is a veteran. He has deserved to be nominated so many times before now. And so in addition to Delray Lindo, I think there's now a lot of heat behind another Sinners actor, which is Michael B. Jordan. You know, I've been all over this world. Cars, ships, trains.
- [21:54]
A
I seen men die, ways I didn't even know was possible. I ain't never saw no roots, no demons, no ghosts, no magic. Just power.
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B
He did win the actor award for best actor and then the entire cast won for ensemble just a few minutes later. And it wasn't just this win for Jordan, but this real huge surge in enthusiasm for Sinners. You had Viola Davis opening the envelope for him, and the actor goes to basically jumping off the stage with excitement about it.
- [22:28]
A
You are shining, Harold.
- [22:29]
B
Michael B. Jordan. So I think the vibes around Sinners have gotten really strong in just the last few days before voting close. And Michael B. Jordan has been a star for such a long time and has really never had a moment of recognition like this. So as you have this sinner's surge happening in the meantime, Timothee Chalamet, who's nominated for Marty supreme, he's been the presumed frontrunner all season.
- [22:53]
A
I have a purpose. You don't.
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B
And if you think that's some sort
- [22:57]
A
of blessing, it's not. It puts me at a Huge life disadvantage. It means I have an obligation to see a very specific thing through. And with that obligation comes sacrifice.
- [23:05]
B
Okay, and then he doesn't win at BAFTA or actor awards. And then right as Oscar voting closes, starts a war with the worlds of opera and ballet with some offhand comments he made in an interview.
- [23:15]
A
And I don't want to be working in ballet or opera or, you know, things where it's like, hey, keep this thing alive, Even though it's like no
- [23:22]
B
one cares about this thing.
- [23:23]
A
All respect to the ballet and opera people out there.
- [23:26]
B
That interview basically went out after Oscar voting ended, so I don't think it really impacted how people voted, but it really tells you how the enthusiasm around Chalamet has cooled while the energy around Michael B. Jordan, I think, was only growing and growing up until the moment that Oscar voting closed.
- [23:41]
A
What about supporting actress?
- [23:42]
B
So in supporting actress, we've really had three contenders who've each had a big victory. Teyana Taylor for one battle after another, One at the Golden Globes in January. Wunmi Masaku of sinners, one at bafta, and then Amy Madigan for weapons won at the actor awards. So they all have a real claim to being the winner here. I go back and forth basically every minute about who I think is going to win this category.
- [24:04]
A
Let's run through them.
- [24:05]
B
So, okay, you got Wumi Masaku for sinners.
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A
The vampires is different. Maybe the worst kind. The soul gets stuck in the body. Can't rejoin the ancestors.
- [24:16]
B
Cursed to live here with all this hate.
- [24:19]
A
So good.
- [24:20]
B
Another great, great breakout performance for someone who's been so good in so many things. Teyana Taylor, in one battle after another, she runs away.
- [24:28]
A
You wanted more of her in that movie.
- [24:29]
B
That's the thing is she disappears. And you never forget her.
- [24:32]
A
You want your power over me, the same reason you want your power over the world.
- [24:37]
B
You and your crumbling l ego will never do this revolution like me.
- [24:43]
A
And I kept thinking she was gonna come back. I know they're bringing her back.
- [24:45]
B
Well, and do you remember Mahershala Ali in moonlight Does a similar thing where he's so dominant in the beginning of that movie, and then he's gone. But you never forget he won also.
- [24:54]
A
Pour one out for moonlight.
- [24:55]
B
I know. I mean, yeah, sorry to talk about the Oscars. Getting it right once in a while. And then Amy Madigan for weapons. I can make your parents hurt themselves. I can make them hurt each other. I can make them eat each other if I want to, which is such a fun, Right?
- [25:13]
A
Weapons is a Very good movie.
- [25:15]
B
Yeah.
- [25:15]
A
I really wanted Weapons was a movie that the entire country kind of just, like, got behind.
- [25:19]
B
Yeah. Well. And for Amy Madigan, you know, it's 40 years since her first Oscar nomination, and she's back again to have that kind of moment in her 70s as an actress and, like, revel in it. Like, she's a real star. She is reveling in her moment. I'm not ruling her out. Like, I think the most logical winner is Teyana Taylor as kind of the representative of one battle after another. She is so powerful in that movie. She's been absolutely everywhere. She goes to these Q. And as she stays, she takes photos, she signs things. She is, like, the last person off of that stage every time.
- [25:49]
A
Yeah. I'm really interested in the way the Oscars, maybe more than any other award show, do the whole, well, it's their turn now thing. When I think of my favorite actors of all time, when they've got the big award, it's kind of been like three or four movies too late.
- [26:05]
B
Yep.
- [26:05]
A
Cough, cough. Denzel Washington.
- [26:07]
B
Yeah. And that's the thing that we love about the Oscars is arguing about who should have won. And, like, Leo should have won for Wolf of Wall street, and then he wouldn't have had to win for the Revenant. And if he hadn't won for the Revenant, then who could have won that year? And Timothee Chalamet is an interesting example of that. This year. He didn't win last year. He lost to Adrian for a complete unknown for playing Bob Dylan, like, the most Oscar y thing you can think of. He loses to Adrien Brody and the Brutalist, who wins his second Oscar. And you're kind of looking at it being like, oh, we could have just given it to Chalamet. So does he get it for then.
- [26:37]
A
Then we maybe could have skipped the most annoying press campaign for Marty Supreme.
- [26:41]
B
No, he still would have done the press campaign, but he does have an Oscar already. But Marty supreme, for better or for worse, is gonna be a definitive role for him. So do you go ahead and give it to him now instead of making him wait? But you could maybe say the same for Michael B. Jordan, who finally got his first nomination this year. So you wanna make sure you get it right so you don't have to make up for it later?
- [27:00]
A
Yeah. Yeah. All right, last question for you. Talking about the slog of the Oscars and campaigning for the Oscars, I imagine it could make someone who has to cover this stuff all the time uninspired Mm. What still keeps you inspired about covering this?
- [27:20]
B
Literally, this morning, I rewatched Olivia Colman's best actress speech from 2018, when she won for the favorite. And it's just one of the most, like, joyous, funny things that you have ever seen. Oh, it's genuinely quite stressful. This is hilarious. And not all Oscar speeches go that way, but when you see just what it means to someone to get to that point, like that recognition from your peers, acting. But any part of being in creative is about rejection, about trying to push something up a hill, saying, I think this can work, and a lot of people not believing you until somebody does. And that moment that most of us don't get in our real lives. You know, like, even if you have some kind of recognition in your life, a gold Oscar is just this level, that kind of this universal symbol that everybody understands. So I think knowing what it can mean to finally get to that point, it's really hard to stay cynical, especially if you are, like, paying attention to the shorts categories or the cinematographers or people who just are not public figures in that way. It's such a meaningful and moving thing to me, even after all these years.
- [28:29]
A
Katie, thanks for being here and thank you for your Oscar service.
- [28:33]
B
Thank you so much for having me.
- [28:38]
A
Katie Rich is the awards editor at the Ankler. We'll include a link to her podcast, Prestige Johnson Junkie, on our Show Notes page. And every weekend, you can find new episodes of Apple News in conversation in the Apple News app. Just tap on the audio tab, the little headphones at the bottom, to find.