#350 - Coffee, Hurricanes, and Leadership

Summary

Archispeak Episode #350 - "Coffee, Hurricanes, and Leadership" (Nov 4, 2024)

Hosts: Evan Troxel & Cormac Phalen
Main Theme:
An insightful, freewheeling conversation on the realities of practicing architecture, blending stories about professional development, weathering literal and figurative storms (hurricanes and leadership transition), personal connections, and the unique flavor of Florida.

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Overview

This landmark 350th episode marks a reflective and humorous dialogue between long-time hosts Evan and Cormac. The discussion ranges from lighthearted podcast milestones and inside jokes (like the saga of “Coffee Boy”) to deeply personal stories about hurricane experiences, family, and the unpredictable path of leadership in architecture. Along the way, listeners are treated to fresh perspectives on professional growth, mentorship, and rare glimpses into the hosts’ personal lives—including Evan’s first trip to Florida, hurricane aftermaths, and the quirks of rural living.

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Key Discussion Points

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1. Podcast Milestone & Coffee Boy Mythos (00:08–03:41)

• Celebrating 350 Episodes:
  The hosts open with self-deprecating humor about their "stealth mode" podcasting and the sizable back catalog.

• Unboxing Segment:
  A playful unboxing of coffee sent by Kurt from the Coffee Sketch podcast, arriving 50 episodes after it was promised.

• “Coffee Boy” to Kurt:
  Running inside joke about Cormac referring to Kurt as "Coffee Boy" until he earns his name on the Archispeak airwaves.

  Quote:
  "The only reason Coffee showed up at my house was so that we would stop calling Kurt Coffee Boy." — Evan (02:25)

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2. Continuing Education (CEU) Excess (03:58–05:20)

• Cormac's Impressive Numbers:
  Cormac shares his ongoing accumulation of CEUs, now exceeding 70 (well above required thresholds).

• Anecdote:
  Attending a seminar on "innovative storage solutions for higher education"—proving that “what’s new” often just means “new to you.”

  Quote:
  "If you've never used them before, they're innovative to you. That's most building products." — Evan (05:09)

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3. Hurricane Stories & Personal Impact (05:20–14:02)

• Living Through Storms:
  Cormac recounts hurricanes while growing up in St. Petersburg, FL (four hurricanes in six weeks), and recent storms affecting family.

• Resilience and Architecture:
  Architecture’s role in disaster resilience—how Florida’s building codes were transformed post-Andrew.

• The Stress of Remote Concern:
  The tension of watching loved ones weather storms from afar; stories about water levels rising, family homes, and the emotional toll.

  Quote:
  "Some people actually want to pay attention to these hurricanes and make sure that people are okay..." — Cormac (08:53)

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4. Acoustics Leadership Retreat: Florida, Unconferences & the Burden of Leadership (14:11–34:35)

• Evan’s First Visit to Florida:
  Immediate impressions (humidity, wildlife, and everything feeling “a certain state of disrepair”) and attending the AEC Acoustics Leadership Retreat.

• Contrast With Traditional Conferences:
  The “unconference” ethos: no flashy tech, focus on quiet reflection and deep conversations, only 16 participants, and nature-centric venue.

• Exploring Leadership:
  The struggle architects face when transitioning from technical to leadership roles—letting go of creative control, becoming a mentor, and cultivating teams.

• Nature of Leadership:
  Leadership vs. management, positive leadership, vulnerability, and the importance of learning from mistakes.

  Quotes:

  • "The AEC Acoustics event is very much...a conference about the conversations after the presentations rather than having presentations." — Evan (16:44)
  • “Leader is not a title. Leader is, it’s a skillset.” — Evan (24:39)
  • "You can lead from any position... It's 360 degree leadership." — Evan (25:46)
  • "Leadership is positive steps forward in this undefinable thing." — Cormac (26:28)
  • "Through my studies of leadership... It's not a position that people actually want. It is actually referred to as the burden of leadership." — Evan (28:54)

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5. Leadership Lessons and Mentorship in Practice (21:00–34:35)

• Reluctance & Realization:
  Both hosts share their own hesitations, struggles, and realizations about the evolving nature of their roles.

• Mentoring the Next Generation:
  The importance of creating environments where emerging architects can learn and thrive, and the tension between drawing and leading.

  Quotes:

  • “...one of the things that I thrive in is educating, mentoring… Well, that’s kind of like the first step in leadership, right?” — Cormac (22:14)
  • "A lot of times, you're doing the things, and nobody has officially ordained you as such." — Evan (25:45)
  • "If you were failed by your leaders, they're not leaders. They're bad managers." — Cormac (27:07)

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6. Florida Wildlife, Gators, and Gumbo Culture (34:35–48:34)

• Evan’s Wildlife Encounters:
  First-hand tales of seeing gators, Spanish moss, spring-fed lakes, learning to e-foil (electric hydrofoil surfboard), and the rustic beauty of rural Florida.

• The Florida Room & Regional Weirdness:
  Debating the odd concept of a "Florida room" and quirky habits of locals; the “gumbo” blend of northern and southern cultures in the state.

• Gator Safety:
  Advice on not “shining” lights into swamps (it attracts gators), and adventures (or near-misadventures) in the Florida wilderness.

  Quotes:

  • "My only traffic was when there were gators in the middle of the road, sunning themselves and cars couldn’t get by." — Cormac (36:35)
  • “Florida is pretty much a human gumbo.” — Cormac (48:19)
  • “I’d go to the Everglades. Although the next time you go, we should go together and camp in Big Cypress.” — Cormac (49:28)

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7. Reflections & Recommendations (48:34–end)

• Unplugging and Real Connection:
  The value of disconnecting from tech, making space for real conversation and introspection while surrounded by nature.

• Conference Recommendation:
  Evan highly recommends the Acoustics Leadership Retreat to anyone contemplating the journey from technical expert to leader.

  Quote:
  "Well, it was a cool place to unplug and to detox and have some real talk." — Evan (48:34)

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Memorable Moments & Quotes (with Timestamps)

• On Podcasting Milestones & Coffee:
  “This was his hope all along. The only reason Coffee showed up at my house was so that we would stop calling Kurt Coffee Boy.” — Evan (02:25)
• On Continuing Education:
  “It’s in the mid-60s...” — Cormac (04:28)
• On Hurricane Damage & Home:
  “Family with six feet of water damage in their house…” — Cormac (06:41)
• On Building Codes:
  “The Florida building code as it stands now came out of…Hurricane Andrew.” — Cormac (12:47)
• Leadership Is Not a Title:
  “Leader is not a title. Leader is, it’s a skillset.” — Evan (24:39)
• Burden of Leadership:
  “It is actually referred to as the burden of leadership. It’s a very difficult thing.” — Evan (28:54)
• Hesitation Toward Management:
  “Doesn’t sound appealing to me.” — Cormac (21:19)
• On Rural Florida:
  “Everything is in a certain state of disrepair… and that wasn’t because of a hurricane.” — Evan (38:51)
• Gators as Traffic:
  “My only traffic was when there were gators in the middle of the road, sunning themselves.” — Cormac (36:35)
• On Florida’s Cultural Mix:
  “Florida is pretty much a human gumbo.” — Cormac (48:19)
• On Unplugged Conferences:
  “It was a cool place to unplug and to detox and have some real talk.” — Evan (48:34)

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Important Timestamps

• 00:08 – Episode open, 350th milestone, Coffee Boy/Kurt running gag
• 03:58 – Continuing Education Units updates and industry seminars
• 06:04–10:31 – Cormac’s hurricane experiences and personal impact
• 14:11–16:44 – Evan’s first Florida visit and the concept of an “unconference”
• 19:45–26:44 – Transition from technical expert to leadership: internal challenges, expectations, reluctance
• 27:07–32:54 – Defining “leadership,” positive/negative leadership, and mentorship
• 34:35–41:02 – E-foiling, wildlife stories, and impressions of rural Florida
• 48:34–49:43 – Takeaways from the retreat, unplugged deep talks, and a final recommendation

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In Summary

Episode 350 is both an homage to architectural practice—with all its stress, satisfaction, and surprises—and a warm meditation on growth, connection, and letting go. Through humor, vulnerability, and vivid storytelling, Evan and Cormac explore what it really means to weather storms (literal and metaphorical), why leadership is as much about teaching as it is about titles, and how sometimes, for an architect, it's not about the building, but about the people and stories inside. Highly recommended listening for architects, leaders, and anyone navigating the changing seasons of creative work.

Transcript

[Evan]

Episode 350. 350 of the ARCA Speak podcast. Have you heard of it?

[Cormac]

I might have.

[Evan]

We come out of stealth mode now. This is. We're coming out of stealth mode. We've been in stealth mode for 349 episodes. Those are in the can, as they say in show business.

[Cormac]

That is true.

[Evan]

And. And so now you. You have a back catalog of 349 episodes. You can go check out to catch up to today.

[Cormac]

Wow, look at that. That's like.

[Evan]

Yeah, I only bring it up.

[Cormac]

50.

[Evan]

I only bring it up because we need to do an unboxing.

[Cormac]

Unboxing.

[Evan]

We're gonna do an unboxing. Oh, let's find out.

[Cormac]

Yeah.

[Evan]

Got. Got my. My pocket knife ready. See what's in. I remember what's in the box. What's in the. What's in the box? All right, let's see here. Oh, look at this. Holding this up to the camera. Thank you for your patience from Coffee Boy Man.

[Cormac]

So we're gonna.

[Evan]

We got some fresh beans from the Coffee Sketch podcast. And the reason I bring up episode 350 is because the Coffee Sketch podcast joined us 50 episodes ago. 300. I'm on number 300. And I'm pretty sure that was when it was stated that Coffee was on the way.

[Cormac]

Yes. Big, big air quotes there on the way.

[Evan]

The biggest of air quotes.

[Cormac]

So the students in studio, because they've had him. Coffee Boy on for a professor for several other studios, they. They listened to his show, and Kurt had mentioned that I. I have a show as well.

[Evan]

You just. You just named. I mean, he. He has actually earned the right.

[Cormac]

He's. He's earned the right to have his.

[Evan]

To have his name. He. This is. This was his hope all along. The only reason Coffee showed up at my house was so that we would stop calling Kurt Coffee Boy.

[Cormac]

Exactly. And. And so we. I only refer to him when I'm talking about the podcast in studio. I only refer to him as Coffee Boy. Even with the students, even though they've known him the longest and everything else, it's just like, don't have a name yet when it's. When it comes to podcasting, you don't have a name. So now officially 50. Oh, we should have done. And I blew it. I blew it.

[Evan]

Well, I didn't let you know this was coming. So what should we have done?

[Cormac]

What we should have done is waited for another 50 episodes to @ least say his name.

[Evan]

Yeah, it's in the mail.

[Cormac]

Right, Exactly. Your name is in the Mail.

[Evan]

Well, that was fun. That's a fun show opener. So July of 2023 was when episode 300 was published. I just had to look it up.

[Cormac]

That seems like it's. I don't know, maybe like almost a year and a half ago.

[Evan]

Yeah, maybe. Maybe a year and a half ago sounds about right.

[Cormac]

Interesting.

[Evan]

Pretty close.

[Cormac]

It's. Sounds like a glacial pace there.

[Evan]

Sounds like the typical. I'm an architect and I'm busy. That's what.

[Cormac]

Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Interesting week.

[Evan]

I want to hear about your week, but can you just. For the listeners, I'm just wondering what your ce. Your continuing education count is up to now.

[Cormac]

I did just send that snapshot to somebody because they were just like, don't you already have enough CEUs for the year? I'm like, I think just a little. Yeah.

[Evan]

Yeah. In this week of Cormac Needs a Life, let's get the current count of continuing education credits.

[Cormac]

I'd have to re log in. I completely forget.

[Evan]

Just give us a ballpark.

[Cormac]

It's. It's in the mid-60s, I think last.

[Evan]

Time we talked it was 68, so it's got to be more than that.

[Cormac]

Oh, okay, then. No, yeah, that's right. 72 or something like that. I kind of slowed down because there's, like, kind of no point anymore.

[Evan]

What? That. That is a long path. I. I lie.

[Cormac]

It's. It's. It's. It's not long. It's. It's not.

[Evan]

You're not.

[Cormac]

I'm not slowing down. I was at one. I was. I was at one today talking about innovative storage solutions for higher education buildings.

[Evan]

Are they actually innovative?

[Cormac]

I mean, they were a few years ago when they were introduced. Like the.

[Evan]

If you've never used them before, they're innovative to you.

[Cormac]

Exactly. If you've never used them before. Yes.

[Evan]

That's most building products. Yeah. Oh, wow. This is amazing. It's like it's been out for 20 years. Yeah.

[Cormac]

Oh, my gosh. I mean, as many times as that, as that's always happened, it's just like, my gosh, you should use this. This is amazing. Like, been using it now for about 15 years. Right. But thank you for the suggestion. Appreciate it. Now, this week has been kind of a crazy one. So people will be able to kind of like, chart what week this is anytime they listen to it, even if it's a few months, weeks, or whatever from now, as everyone knows that I am a Floridian and have been as wrecked as I've been in a long time since Leaving Florida on hurricane season specifically, because.

[Evan]

When did you leave Florida? 2008. Nine.

[Cormac]

2008. Yeah.

[Evan]

Okay.

[Cormac]

I mean, I grew up there and grew up with multiple hurricanes, and remember the. We had four hurricanes in six weeks. And I was actually telling somebody, I was like, yeah, I can name them them all. Gene, Charlie, Ivan.

[Evan]

Anyway, I just saw something funny. It was like, why are. Why are you naming them names like Milton? If you named it, like, the death Megatron, 3,000 people might actually leave their. Take them seriously and get the heck out.

[Cormac]

This is real. This. Well, so. Because I grew up in St. Petersburg, Florida, and for the longest time, which is in the Tampa Bay area, and for the longest time, it was slated to basically have a direct hit on my hometown. Yeah. And, you know, family's still there, niece and nephews and their children are there and all of this other stuff. And so we just had a hurricane that came through two weeks ago and had family with six feet of water damage in their house. So it was. It was kind of rough. And so I literally, like, as it was making landfall yesterday, I was up texting my sister all night long, making sure she was okay. How's the winds doing and where's the water? It actually came up close to her threshold at her front door. And oddly, the way that her house is, it kind of sits up on a hill. I'm gonna use a podcast where. What's there?

[Evan]

Florida Hill.

[Cormac]

Like, just a. It was just the way that it. It was contoured. Her house kind of sits up high from the road, and there was a stormwater management ditch in the median in between the road. So. And that overflowed pretty quickly. And she's sending me, you know, texts and everything and sending me videos of this is just like, oh, well, the. The. The ditch is already full. And we're talking about a ditch that's like, I don't know, about 8, 9, 10ft deep. So it isn't like a small little thing. It's. It's. It's. It's deep, and it had already overflowed, it already crested, and it's already now into the street. And then her. Like, the threshold of her house is probably about 5ft above the surface of the road. So now we're. Now we're talking about something that probably about 3 or 4ft of water and stuff. And I know if I was still there, I lived three blocks from the. The water from. From Tampa Bay, and so I would have long been gone if.

[Evan]

The surge is incredible.

[Cormac]

Storm surges. So it was just One of those things that everybody's like, oh, I'm so sick and tired of hearing about these, these hurricanes. Enough about these hurricanes. And I'm thinking to myself, some people actually want to pay attention to these hurricanes and make sure that people are okay and all that other stuff. And I get it. I mean, if it doesn't affect them, sure, I, I get that totally. But for me, it was kind of like, this is like my hometown. I mean, my. Yeah, my major league baseball stadium now is, Is roofless.

[Evan]

Oh, wow. Seriously?

[Cormac]

Yeah.

[Evan]

Oh, my gosh. But I didn't like how it's yours, by the way. It's your.

[Cormac]

It is actually. So here's, here's my connection to.

[Evan]

Is this like the Green Bay packers, where the fans actually own the.

[Cormac]

No, it's not that.

[Evan]

However, not like that.

[Cormac]

When it was under construction, I was in high school watching the, the tower cranes and all that other stuff holding this thing off. So, you know, there's this just emotional connection. You. I know you've got emotional connections to places in your, you know, where you are and stuff.

[Evan]

Sports teams. Yeah. All right. That's me.

[Cormac]

I mean, they, they play sports balling there.

[Evan]

Sports buildings. Yes.

[Cormac]

Yes.

[Evan]

Yeah.

[Cormac]

You designed a sports building.

[Evan]

Yeah, I have, but.

[Cormac]

So there you go. He's about the closest to sports Evan.

[Evan]

Will ever get that. Organized sports. Yes, I like, like disorganized sports, but individual sports. Do you have a piece of this. Of said building or something?

[Cormac]

No.

[Evan]

Like you keep it in a keepsake box under the bed?

[Cormac]

No, but I have worked on renovations to that build, so that's cool. Yeah, a couple, actually.

[Evan]

My wife's brother lives near St. Petersburg and my mom's best friend is also in Sarasota. And so I think it was. Yeah, yeah. So anyway, we've been watching it too.

[Cormac]

Yeah. And so where, for listeners, where it actually hit was just south of St. Petersburg. So just south of the mouth of Tampa Bay in Siesta Key, which is just barely north of Sarasota. So basically it split the difference between where your people are at and where my people are at. And yeah, the size of it in that particular area doesn't mean much. It's lots of heavy winds, heavy rains. My sister drove downtown today and she was FaceTiming me while she was driving down. And there were. There's a small municipal airport right on the water. A lot of buildings are trash there. Lots of like storm surge, debris, water, trees, everything down everywhere. A 44 story building was being built and there was a tower crane. And I Say it was because this tower crane is now on the ground. Unfortunately, there was a building in the way as it came down.

[Evan]

I picked up on the. Was there. I knew that was coming.

[Cormac]

Yeah.

[Evan]

Safe to say though, maybe not as bad as what happened to Asheville.

[Cormac]

It. No, because that's, that was all pure flooding and that was horrible. Especially since that was nothing that they were prepared for, nothing that they was expected. I mean, this is coastal Florida where any and all new building has got to meet the Florida building codes. And I was just having this conversation with somebody today that the Florida building code as it stands now came out of the. What happened with Hurricane Andrew in the Miami Dade area. And at the time we were just using the standard international building code. And once that happened, much like what you guys did in California, had to adopt one because of very state specific disasters.

[Evan]

Yeah, right. Responding to those.

[Cormac]

Yeah. And I.

[Evan]

Acts of God, as it were.

[Cormac]

Yeah. And I just happened to be talking to a client today for one of our projects for the national parks. And he had just gotten back in from a series of damage assessments from Hurricane Helena and which was two weeks ago. And one of the areas just happened to be just around Siesta Key, which is where it made landfall. And the, the DeSoto National Monument is there. And sure enough, he's, he's. I, I was asking him, I'm like, do you have to go back? He's like, yeah, yeah, I'm going to have to go back and reassess it because now there's even more damage and stuff. And so like there's the series of national parks up and down the western Gulf Coast. He's going to have to go back and reassess. After two weeks of being out there assessing them for damage, now he's got to do it again. It's. Wow, it's insane. I mean, I.

[Evan]

What, we got two more weeks and then the next one, right?

[Cormac]

No, there's one out in the, there's one out in the Atlantic now.

[Evan]

Are you serious? In the other direction.

[Cormac]

Yeah. So I kind of wish, I wish I weren't serious, but it sounds like it's going to be a relentless hurricane season. And so.

[Evan]

Well, speaking of Florida, like, I was.

[Cormac]

Just there, I was going to say.

[Evan]

In between these two.

[Cormac]

Exactly.

[Evan]

Major events and not, not in the path of the hurricane, but definitely some, a little bit of damage, but yeah.

[Cormac]

And this was your first time being in Florida?

[Evan]

First time to Florida, first time visitor.

[Cormac]

So. First time caller, last time visitor.

[Evan]

Right. Don't need to go back.

[Cormac]

Check that off of your bucket list. So I was going to ask you as a, as a first person, as a person of your advanced years experiencing Florida for the very first time, how was it?

[Evan]

I had a really great time and I don't know that that had anything much to do with Florida. It had something to do with Florida because, I mean, obviously you notice coming from where I live, going there, it's very humid when you go there as soon as you get off the plane. But I mean, not unlike some other places that I've visited. And the thing that I did, it's called the AEC Acoustics Leadership Retreat and so specifically named to give you an idea about what it's like. This episode is not sponsored by the AEC Acoustics team, but I thought it would be fun to maybe do a little bit of a debrief from the event. And the AEC Acoustics event is very much like a detox of being in architectural technology. So of course there's people there with their laptops and their phones, but really there's just no expectation to have anything except a pen and a notebook. And what I really appreciated about it because it's very different. This is basically what you would call an. The. The buzzword would be unconference. This is an unconference. So like, like the conference I'm about to go to, which is Autodesk University in, In San Diego this year, not.

[Cormac]

In Las Vegas, that's a conference.

[Evan]

That's a. That's a tech conference. Right. And that's like it's all about the latest and the greatest and the, the over promise and the under. Deliver of technology.

[Cormac]

Ouch.

[Evan]

In many people's eyes. And, but, but because, yeah, I mean this is the kind of place where at au. Where they announce the. The newest of the new or the things that aren't here yet that are coming and There's a lot.

[Cormac]

Revit 2026 is now out.

[Evan]

It'll be all about, for example.

[Cormac]

Yeah, right.

[Evan]

And. And the AEC Acoustics event is very much like what. What they bill as the. The best part about going to a conference is the conversations after the presentation. So let's just make a conference about the conversations after the presentations rather than have presentations. And so I think that that probably, I mean, if you kind of perk up when you hear something like that, you might be interested in going because it's, it's very different. And I had an incredible, incredible time. It was very. The words that I would use to describe it. I mean it was like prompted by One of the. The leaders of the event. It's like, if you could use one word to describe this event, what would it be? And for me, it would be quiet. It was very quiet. It was introspective. And I would also say that it was, I don't know, kind of transformative in the way that only 16 people were there. I mean, how many people go to the conferences you're used to? How many people show up at the AIA conference? Anywhere from 8 to 15,000. Right. Thousands and thousands AU's similar to that. So in that respect, it was really refreshing because you're not overwhelmed with how many people are there in any sense of the word. And. And it was. And when I say those words, I mean it. Like, just literally, it was quiet. We were at a. It was. It was like a church camp. It was a camp. It was literally like a camp with, you know, it had rooms for everybody to stay in. Kind of Very Motel 6, like, and so not the latest greatest. Nothing's there. There's Wi Fi. It sucks. Right?

[Cormac]

There was good.

[Evan]

Yeah, Good, right?

[Cormac]

It was. It was something to detach from.

[Evan]

Yeah. And that's what I mean by, like, kind of a detox. Right. In that regard, because you're not actually talking about tech and you're not talking about the workflows and you're not talking about. Speaking of. My little smart device just bonged because I thought I said its name workflow.

[Cormac]

What would you like me to do for you?

[Evan]

How can I help? But it was a leadership conference that was focused on people who are transitioning from being highly technical roles in firms into leadership roles, and then being faced with leading people, and that being a really difficult transition for a lot of people to make who are in those roles. Because think about those people who are. Maybe you are that person in your firm. You probably know people like that in the industry, if not at your firm, if you're a small firm and you have to do it all, you know what I'm talking about. Or you just choose not to do any of that. Right. Maybe you still. You keep it really simple, but that is a big hurdle for a lot of people to get over. Right. Which is, oh, I have to, man. I'm good at managing what workflows. I'm good at managing whatever it is, just call it tech.

[Cormac]

Right, Right.

[Evan]

People are very different from that, managing teams of people. And so I went through that myself, Right. When I was working at HMC in Southern California. I went from being a designer to being the digital practice Leader by my own doing. Right. And others involvement. But it was, it was very different than having to build a team to accomplish this stuff and letting go of the drivers, letting go of the wheel, letting go of the mouse, letting go of the keyboard. From doing the design in my case, to letting everybody else do what their talents and their roles are so that they can really progress but also shine in those roles because that's where their passion is. I think that's hard for a lot of people.

[Cormac]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Evan]

Some people directly choose not to do it. Right. They're just like, no, I don't want to move into that position because there is an expectation now that you want, you're basically going to cultivate a team of yous to do the things. And people are like no way. I, I want to keep doing the thing. So I'm not going to step up into those roles.

[Cormac]

And honestly I fought that for a long time. In fact, I remember when I was told, hey Cormac, you're going to be taking more of like a project manager role and you're going to be doing a lot less drawing a lot less hands on in the projects. And like, doesn't sound appealing to me.

[Evan]

Yeah. Or like they don't know what they're signing up for or, or it doesn't land. They don't really hear it and then it's, and then they're kind of shocked when it happens. But, but for you to see that in advance is, is, I think that's a good thing. Right. Because it's like if you know that that's not the right fit, if you know that you're not going to do well at it. I mean, you definitely want to play to your strengths in this.

[Cormac]

Well, it's interesting though. It's like. So it took me a while to adjust to that and I don't think that I've fully. But one of the interesting things about it is, is that the role really comes with a layer of as you say, leadership, but also mentorship and your training. You're, you're not only leading these, these people, you're not only leading the projects and things like that, but you're, you're leading the next generation of people who are going to take over for what you're doing.

[Evan]

Yeah.

[Cormac]

You know. Right. Sit in setting the next generation of professionals and hopefully creating good habits for them in their leadership role and good examples of, for them in, for their leadership roles and things to learn off of. And instead of creating this kind of like air of fear, oh my Gosh, I don't know if I can do this or I don't want to leave, you know, sketching all the time or, or creating, doing construction documents and things like that. Because leadership sounds like a daunting task. But then when you really start to, especially for me, let's just use me as an example when I realize that one of the things that I thrive in is I guess educating, mentoring and things like that. Well, that's kind of like the first step in leadership, right? Is being able to learn how to manage people, teach people, I guess shepherd them to understanding how to, how it is that they do their job. And, and so you're like, oh, well this, this for me it was like, this is just natural for me. But thinking about it in a more formalized role, I was like, absolutely not. I don't think I could do this. And you're like, wait, but you are doing it, but you're, you haven't given yourself the same title as. And, but so it's kind of interesting because just happened to be talking to somebody today about a position that they were looking at and they looked at two different roles in the, at the place that they were applying to. One was a leadership role and what was more of a project manager, project coordinator role. And they applied for the lesser of the two in responsibility wise. And even in their interview, they had told me that the interviewers after they were done said they actually more see him in the leadership role because of like everything that he displays and all of that other stuff. And I told him, I'm like, you are a born leader. You're a natural leader. I just don't understand why you're not seeing it. He was like, well, what about you?

[Evan]

Well, and I think this brings up a really good point, which is what is the difference between leadership and management? Because leader is not a title. Leader is, it's a skill set, right? And it's like project manager is actually like a job title and it is a role. And there's, it's pretty articulated, right? Here's the bullet points of your roles and responsibilities that you're going to be carrying out. But leadership is something else than that. And it actually is a little bit tough or tricky to actually define what leadership is. It's kind of, it's one of those things where, you know, when you see it like it's a feeling more than a title, right? And it's one of those things that I think people confuse those things a lot. And to me they're, they're Both necessary and, and they're both like very useful in what they're made to do. And I think the leadership one. Back to your example about this person that you're talking about. It's like a lot of times you, you just, you're doing the things and nobody has officially ordained you as such.

[Cormac]

Right.

[Evan]

Because you honestly can lead from any position. You could lead up, you can lead down, you can lead sideways, you can. It's 360 degree leadership. Right. I mean this is, there's a. Books written on this. So.

[Cormac]

Yeah, yeah, if he listens to this show, he's like, what are you talking to me about, about me for? But, and so what's interesting is we were also having this conversation, same person, and we were talking about. He was like, good leadership and bad leadership. I'm like, there is no bad leadership because leadership is inherently a good, good thing. Like you're, when you're leading somebody when.

[Evan]

So if it's bad leadership, it's actually something else. Is that what you're saying?

[Cormac]

It is. That's what. Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying, is that it's not leadership. Leadership is positive steps forward in, in, in this, this, this undefinable thing that you were just talking about.

[Evan]

Bad design, Cormac. There's good design. What's bad?

[Cormac]

There's, there's.

[Evan]

Is that something else too?

[Cormac]

Wait, is this a. Yeah, but. Well, because I've had this conversation, it's just like, well, my leaders are. When people will talk about. Just like, well, I was failed by my leadership. I'm like, no, no, no, no, you were failed by your management, but you weren't failed by your leaders. Because if you were failed by your leaders, they're not leaders. They're. They're bad, they're bad managers.

[Evan]

I would push back on that. Like, like mistakes happen. Think bad things do happen to people.

[Cormac]

Well, I'm, I'm talking bigger things like, because there's, because I think you were sort of alluding to. There's like natural leaders or leaders that are like learned through experience and things like that. And what they do is they try to positive. It's, it's, it's like this positive example of what to do. Right. Is sort of a generic way of talking about what a leader is.

[Evan]

Yeah.

[Cormac]

And so that it. For me, it's always, yes, there's leaders that fail. And that's not necessarily what I'm talking about. I'm talking about like the examples that I was being given were things that were systemic, that were things that happen all the time, over and over again. And for me, that isn't a definition of a leader.

[Evan]

I think what you're talking about there is almost entitlement. It's like, it's like, yeah, I demand that you, that, yeah, I have a title. You pursue me as a leader or a self given title. And yeah, yeah, that's about things that are, that are much bigger than that.

[Cormac]

Yeah, yes, that's, that's more of what I was meaning. So, I mean, you know, you can have leaders who make mistakes and learn from them and grow from them and things like that. But that's, but again, that's still one of those positive things. It's like, oh, we tried something, we, it wasn't successful, but here's what we're going to do to get better.

[Evan]

Yeah.

[Cormac]

And so you're automatically thinking about how to improve off of a failure, but it's a failed attempt at something positive that may not have worked out. Right.

[Evan]

Versus how learning happens. That's exactly one of the only ways learning happens.

[Cormac]

Right.

[Evan]

And through my studies of leadership, a lot of people, I think covet those positions or at least desire them. Maybe covet's the wrong word, but I think we all know people who have coveted those kinds of positions. And you're like, you always kind of look with the side eye, like, no, that's not for you. You wouldn't maybe say that to them, but you know that it's not. Right. And the reason I say that is because in my studies of leadership, it's not a position that people actually want. It is actually referred to as the burden of leadership. It's a very difficult thing. I mean, as a parent, I think you probably know exactly what I'm talking about. It's like when your kid does a bunch of stupid stuff and you keep trying to counsel them on how to do like you're giving them shortcuts, you're giving them advice, you're giving them counsel, you're trying to help them not make the same mistakes. And they say, anyway, I want to make my own mistakes. Right. And it's like, okay, like I, I can appreciate that. And at the same time, like, I want you to do better than I've ever done.

[Cormac]

And yeah.

[Evan]

And yet they still are saying, but I'm just, I'm going to make my, I want to do this. I don't tell me what to do, I want to do that. And you're just like broken over it. Right?

[Cormac]

Okay.

[Evan]

I think, I think that's lead. The burden of leadership is like. Like, if I could put a feeling to it, that's how it feels to be like, but.

[Cormac]

But I want to learn for myself. You're just like, but why, why, why can't we get to a different footing for you?

[Evan]

Instead of saying, build on what I've.

[Cormac]

Exactly done, it's like, yeah, okay, what you're gonna do, I've experienced and I've failed at it. So why don't we come up with a way for me to kind of explain to you how I failed at it, and you come up with ways for you to move on from that, and so you don't have to fail to learn from that mistake, but learn from my mistakes that I. That I'm trying to tell you.

[Evan]

Yeah.

[Cormac]

So that you can grow from that instead. And that's totally apparent thing. In fact, I just had with my son, my oldest, and we were having that conversation, and he was just like, well, I. I want to try it myself and do all of this stuff. And you're just like, I get that. I understand it, and I even appreciate it. However, why. Or as my daughter would say, for what purpose?

[Evan]

That sounds like a line out of a movie.

[Cormac]

Exactly.

[Evan]

And I don't want to paint a picture like leadership is all like that, because it is. And I think this is why people see themselves wanting to be a leader is like, they see the great stuff that happens. Let's look at athletes, right? You see the Michael Jordans and how many kids did he inspire to become amazing basketball players? Because they see the triumph. They see that hard work that pays off. But what they don't see is how hard it was to actually get there. And it's one of those things where. Because that stuff isn't on display, I think a lot of times that's hidden, especially in the corporate structures. It's like, keep all of the failures a secret. Don't talk about those. Don't do the lessons learned. Don't do the feedback. Don't do the debriefs. And it just becomes about, look how cool we are. We're always patting ourselves on the back and look at this. Great. And it's. And so therefore, there's this natural inclination to want to be in those roles and to be inspiring to others and to do those kinds of things. But I would say, like, those are. These are like, the 1%, the things that actually happen that are in the positive. It's like, it is so hard dealing with everything everybody brings when they show up. You have to deal with that as the leader.

[Cormac]

Yeah.

[Evan]

And that could be, that could change on a daily, weekly, hourly basis with a lot of people. Right. Everything. The, the way things show up and, and having to react. Plan. Plan for. In advance. I don't know, like, there's so many. There's so much going on, there's so much nuance to it, so.

[Cormac]

Oh yeah, yeah.

[Evan]

It's a tricky topic. I mean, overall, I mean, it's a very tricky topic. And just to bring it back to this conference, I mean, it was very much one of those things where 16 people are there talking about their experiences and being extremely vulnerable. And so like when I say it was like a time of introspection, this place was safe. It basically established that early on that through, through talking and building relationships with these people. Because the first two days were just fun activities. Like we went kayaking and paddle boarding at a, at a natural spring, a state park in Silver Spring. State park in, in Gainesville, near Gainesville, Florida. And it's just absolutely incredible. And just by doing these things with people, you, you get to know them. And so then it opens up the opportunities to speak your mind and to share your experiences and ultimately to get really vulnerable. And then it leads to introspection and actual relationship building with people around this shared experience of getting from where you are to this leadership. I'm using my quotes here because who knows if it's. If it's ordained leadership or not. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. But wow. I mean, what a. What an amazing way to be able to, to do that. It was, it was. I highly recommend it.

[Cormac]

See any gators?

[Evan]

Saw three gators.

[Cormac]

Yes, that's it.

[Evan]

That's it. Yeah. But one of them was like eight feet long. It was. I got pictures. I'll put a picture in, show notes. Nothing like the Crocs I saw in Australia. Oh my goodness. 30ft, 30ft long.

[Cormac]

You know, we have both Crocs and.

[Evan]

Oh no, I didn't know there were Crocs in Florida.

[Cormac]

Yeah.

[Evan]

I mean, are. You're not talking about the shoes? No. Right.

[Cormac]

In fact, actually what's funny is one of the scenes, my Instagram reels are like just inundated with all sorts of hurricane related things. And this one guy was going into like. It was funny. As I was having this conversation with my sister, she was like, well, I was. We had water in our Florida room. I'm like, doesn't it seem a little redundant if you're already in Florida? Isn't it just called a Room.

[Evan]

Okay.

[Cormac]

It is. It is essentially a veranda or just a kind of a. It's not an. In a screen porch because it is somewhat enclosed, but, you know, like a sun room.

[Evan]

That's what I would call that in.

[Cormac]

We. Yes, we would. We would call it sunroom. But in Florida, and weirdly enough, a lot of Midwesterners, if they build a. In fact, they have companies around here who advertise building a Florida room for them.

[Evan]

Do they put hairs in these rooms? Like they. Like, they walk into the room and it feels more Florida.

[Cormac]

Yeah, like a dirty Mustang gym shop. But. But. But anyway, so one of them was this guy, like, walking in to his Florida room, and there was.

[Evan]

I smell hints of mold.

[Cormac]

Yeah, no, there was more of, like a big, massive gator in.

[Evan]

And they're just like, brought in by the. By the hurricane.

[Cormac]

Yeah, just. Just the water was high. Dude decided, hey, this is a good place to, like, ride it all out.

[Evan]

So I'm gonna go find some from some snacks, AKA your pets. Where.

[Cormac]

Where I lived in Florida, where I would drive to work, was pretty quiet road, and the only time that I experienced any traffic was when there was gators in the middle of the road stunning themselves and cars couldn't get by.

[Evan]

Yeah, it's like buffalo in Yellowstone or something.

[Cormac]

Yeah, just hanging. So you know that. Exactly. You know. You know that feeling, right? Gators in Southern Cal.

[Evan]

Around here, it's deer. There's. There's deer and turkeys that. That do that. It's like, now 40 turkeys will cross the road and we will.

[Cormac]

Wait, did I tell you about, like, all of the. The elk crossing signs in Canada on our trip, and when we were talking to. We were in Brian McKay Lyons office, and my wife was asking about, like, what's the deal with all of these? The elk? And they're like, oh, that is nothing. You. You don't. You don't mess with them. It. You know, you just don't. That's true.

[Evan]

Yeah, you don't. You don't go take a selfie with the elk.

[Cormac]

Yeah, it's like they'll. They'll. They'll mess you up. They'll attack your car. And we're like, all right, then we are not gonna. Yeah, we're not dealing with that.

[Evan]

There's a. There's a great Instagram account called Turons of Yellowstone. And meaning. Meaning, like, tourist morons, if I had to spell that out for you.

[Cormac]

That's hilarious. Thank you.

[Evan]

And it's basically people doing exactly what you're talking about. It's like, let's go get a selfie with the bear, you know, here.

[Cormac]

But yeah, it's like, wait, let me give this nice little. In the west, the last real. The reel is posted.

[Evan]

We're gonna live stream, like the final reel, maybe.

[Cormac]

Yeah, exactly. So I want to hear a little bit more about your impressions of Florida as being the first time that you were there, other than hot and.

[Evan]

Well, I mean, what's funny about where I was, I would call it rural Florida. I mean, it. I would say everything.

[Cormac]

There's a lot more of that.

[Evan]

I'm sure there's a lot of that. It's not that different from where I live, actually.

[Cormac]

Yeah.

[Evan]

Just to be honest. But I would say everything every. Yeah, a lot stickier and more green. I would say everything is in a certain state of disrepair where I was. And. And that wasn't because of a hurricane.

[Cormac]

No, no, no, Trust me. I know exactly where you were and driven through there. Because when I used to go back and forth from St. Petersburg to D.C. visiting family and everything, I would drive literally through where you were at, kind of taking the back roads to get there and. Which is always kind of fun. But you can tell which direction things are with the. Where the moss grow trees and all of that other stuff. So, yeah, plenty of moss.

[Evan]

I saw a lot of moss. I saw a lot of like this. What we would call Spanish moss, like, hanging from the oak trees, right?

[Cormac]

Yeah, we call it Spanish moss.

[Evan]

The oak trees were very different. They were huge. But they were also. They had little baby acorns. Little tiny acorns were not like the. My oak trees right outside the door here have much, much larger acorns. And the squirrels are going after them right now. But, yeah, gators saw a lot of. There's like these blue carp swimming in the. The springs.

[Cormac]

Oh, yeah.

[Evan]

Really beautiful. And there's manatees there.

[Cormac]

Oh, you got to see some.

[Evan]

I. I personally didn't see a manatee, but there were a couple of sightings. It's pretty. Maybe a little more rare.

[Cormac]

Where I used to really cool. Have lunch down in St. Petersburg was on the docks by the. And you just look down and you'd see manatees floating all around. It was.

[Evan]

Yeah. Somebody saw a manatee and a calf like. Yeah. Swimming together. Little more bugs. A little more mosquitoes than. Than we have here.

[Cormac]

That's our state bird.

[Evan]

Yeah. Lots of big, big birds.

[Cormac]

They're usually like. They're usually like that big, too. Mosquitoes.

[Evan]

Right. I spent a lot of time on Lake Rosa which the camp is on a lake, which is really cool. It's a small lake, but it was, I guess a lot of the lakes are just fed by natural springs or, or hurricanes maybe. But it was pretty cool because I learned how to efoil. Do you know what an E foil is?

[Cormac]

No.

[Evan]

So a foil is, it's like, think of it like, like the America's cup sailboats are all foils now. They, the boat, like the hull of the boat, once they get up to speed, it like gets up out of the water.

[Cormac]

Yeah.

[Evan]

And just the foil goes down.

[Cormac]

Okay.

[Evan]

And so a foil that you can. It's like a five foot long surfboard that's wider than a surfboard. So it's more like a, more like a boogie board. But you have a trigger like a boosted board skateboard. And it has 20 speeds. And then like a trigger is like an on off. It's pretty cool, right? It's just this little, this little hand trigger. And so you, you put on your helmet, you put on your impact life vest. Not just a life vest, but an impact rated life vest. Okay. And over the course of three days, I learned how to ride this thing. And basically so, so it's like the size of a boogie board, like a bodyboard, if you're familiar with what that is. And you get on that and you, you kind of lay on it and you get going and then you get up on your knees and you can actually foil on your knees. That's the first thing I learned how to do was foil just on my knees. And then you start to stand up and you, you can actually just ride it where the boogie board part itself is on the water so that you're not foiling yet, but your goal is to get up and actually like ride it like a surfboard four feet in the air. Okay, interesting. Going 20 miles an hour. That thing can go 50 miles an hour. Okay. I rode it the top. The top speed I went was number five. It went up to number 20. Right. And I can't even imagine because the first time I decided, yeah, I'm going to stand up on this thing. I know how to snowboard. I can skateboard. I flew like, it just went and it was like lift off. And I just took off and ate crap into the water. Thus the impact, the body protection that I was wearing. By the end of the third day, I could actually ride this thing around the lake in foil mode. And it's so awesome when that lake is like glass because it just reflects the sky and you cannot determine like where sky and water meet and it's this crazy illusion. You can't tell how high you are above it. It's just messing with you, right? It's just messing with you. And it's, there's, there's some videos. I'll put a, I'll put a link. If the video is out, I'll put a link to it in the show notes. And you from the conference, they, they made like a three minute video, just the highlight reel, but it shows us efoiling in there. And it was, it was, it was pretty cool.

[Cormac]

Yeah, that sounds.

[Evan]

It was, it was, it was awesome. So say you would do it, right?

[Cormac]

I might. Although the difference is, is that like, I'm sure it's a lot more difficult or the level of difficulty. No, no, the level of. I was going to say the level of difficulty. I'm sure it's, it's tough. Just regardless. But you were on flat water. Get that to the Gulf coast where you're, you've got, you would do it in the bay.

[Evan]

You wouldn't do it like out in the ocean, I don't think. Maybe, maybe people do. I don't know.

[Cormac]

Yeah, I'm sure. I mean, who knows? I mean, it's Florida, man. They're crazy.

[Evan]

So this. Yeah, that's true. So this thing has a huge battery in it. You can actually ride it for like 90 minutes out in the water and.

[Cormac]

That on full speed.

[Evan]

Probably not. Probably not.

[Cormac]

I was gonna say, like, if you get stranded and you just like go drop it back down and like putter in.

[Evan]

Right. So. So it was cool because the, the guy who sets up the retreat actually had two of them. And so he could be out there kind of helping teach you how to do it while you're learning how to do it. And he could literally ride circles around you while you were falling off. And, and it was like I said, you can go for about 90 minutes, but they actually. So it has this electric motor. It's really high efficient, highly efficient, carbon fiber everything. They have these ones without a motor and you just have to pump it and you can actually get. Pump. You can pump it and you pop up out of the water and people ride those on waves and all kinds of, they do all kinds of cool stuff out in the ocean. They're way lighter weight. They, they're easier to maneuver, they're more agile. So there's, there's a couple different versions. So this is specifically an E Foil. And this is basically like the Tesla in the water. Like it's Pretty cool. Pretty cool. That was a highlight for me, for sure. That and the food. Okay, so they. This is not like a conference where you just go to. There's no food trucks, there's no food carts. There's no, like, conference. Pizza and hot dogs. He brings in a chef. All right, Chef Charles. And you call him Chef, like he's a legit French chef. Okay?

[Cormac]

Yes, Chef.

[Evan]

And he was incredible person, and he made the most incredible food. It was not camp food by any.

[Cormac]

Sense of the Florida, was it? Florida food?

[Evan]

No. Well, we. We did have some Florida stuff because we went out to dinner the very first night. So we had. We went to Crawfish Bowl, Gator Bites, and we had. We had some crocodile. What was it? It was a croc. Alligator tail, deep fried. Alligator, deep fried everything.

[Cormac]

That is literally so tourist cliche.

[Evan]

I'm sure it is. But when in Rome, as they say, you only get to say that because you lived there. Like, if you.

[Cormac]

I was gonna say, you would have eaten it. Ain't no damn Floridian eating crocodile or gator on a daily basis.

[Evan]

Oh, I bet that's not true.

[Cormac]

I'm sure, I'm sure. I'm sure Cletus is. Is. Is sure enough all about the. The gator.

[Evan]

Gator Jumbo got, Squirrel got. What else? What else you got?

[Cormac]

And trust me, you were. You were. You were on the threshold of what my area of Florida versus, like, that's when you start getting into, like, when it become. When Florida becomes the Deep south is north of Gainesville.

[Evan]

So we were in. We were there.

[Cormac]

Yeah, so you were, you were. You were on the threshold of basically. So, like the panhandle of Florida. We affectionately call it la. Lower Alabama.

[Evan]

Oh, okay.

[Cormac]

You know, it's. It's. Yeah, you're like Los Angeles. No, right. Lower Alabama. And that's when the dialect becomes more Southern, a lot more Southern. And when you hear somebody from a. It just. It. It switches to a Southern accent. And in fact, I was talking with. With somebody today from Pensacola, which is in the Panhandle, and he took offense to the. The LA thing. I was like that. You were. That it was referred to as la. He's like, yeah, yeah, you're right. Like this, like in. I grew up in. Almost everybody that I knew was not from there. They were. Their family was snowbirds. Maybe. Maybe, like, they were. The kids were born there. But like, the parents, they. They flocked from New York, Wisconsin, Michigan, wherever, things like that. So Florida's. That's why Florida is so interesting. Because you literally have like.

[Evan]

It's a different.

[Cormac]

It is, it is a gumbo. And gumbo, you throw like anything that you got in there to make the. Basically this kind of like stew. Ish thing. And that's pretty much what Florida is. It's a human gumbo.

[Evan]

Nice. Well, it was a cool place to unplug and to detox and have some real talk.

[Cormac]

Sounds amazing.

[Evan]

Yeah. I'll put a link to the website and if that video. I'm sure that video will be posted by the time this episode comes out. So I'll put a link to that in the show notes too. But those are both worth checking out. And like it's. It's budget season right now, so. Budget. If you want to budget for our conference, they do one in the spring, one in the fall. They have a little bit of a different focus for each one of them. Highly recommended though.

[Cormac]

I kind of want to go to.

[Evan]

Florida now, don't you?

[Cormac]

No, I. I'd go to the.

[Evan]

You've been there.

[Cormac]

I know. I'd go home. I don't need the. I don't need the Florida country.

[Evan]

Gumbo.

[Cormac]

Although the next time you go, we should go together and we'll go camping down a big cypress that's basically the Everglades.

[Evan]

Oh, I would love to.

[Cormac]

And if. And if you want to like we. We took my brother in law when he, he had. Before he moved down there. And one of the things that you're not supposed to do is it's called shining. It's where you shine a. A light out and you basically like we were right next to this one open water area and he starts shining the light out there and all you see are eyeballs.

[Evan]

Like why are you not supposed to do that?

[Cormac]

Because you're spooking the gators and gators don't want to be spooked and they come after that light.

[Evan]

I would want to know where the gators are.

[Cormac]

You sort of might not want to everywhere.

[Evan]

It's like one of those. It's like a scene in a movie. Yeah, a horror movie.

[Cormac]

We were down there one time and it's just super, super dark. So like beautiful dark skies. And my wife and I, we had one of the old S10 Blazers drop the tailgate. We're sitting there and palmetto bushes, the basically the like little short scrubby looking palm tree looking things. So it was just palmetto bushes for the eye. As far as the eye can see. I was parked right next to a sign and she wasn't really paying attention. To the sign, and I was like. I looked up. I was like, huh, Panther crossing? And she was just like. And then the next thing we hear is some, like, rustling footsteps in the palmetto bushes right next to us. And before I even had the words like, what's that? Out of my mouth, she was in the front seat. Truck had automatically started, and she's. The yelling, let's go. There are all sorts of things. There's. There's black. There's black bear in Florida. We have deer in Florida, but deer is. Is stretching that term because they're at least in, like, southern Florida, they're about the size of maybe a greyhound, so they're not that big.

[Evan]

And they're zombies.

[Cormac]

And they're zombies, too.

[Evan]

We have. We have. We have a black bear on our property.

[Cormac]

Yeah, right.

[Evan]

Like, yeah, this time of year, there's. Yep. Good times. All right, well, I guess I'll see you in Florida.

[Cormac]

Yeah, we should. We should go. I'll take you. I'll take you camping in the middle of the Everglades.

[Evan]

Sounds wonderful.

[Cormac]

You'll enjoy. Get me out of here.

[Evan]

It.