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- [00:00]
A
Today we are joined by David Prutting, founder of Prudding Co. Custom builders based in New Canaan, Connecticut. And Dave has spent more than five decades building some of the region's finest, what should we say? Contemporary, modern, I don't know, Amazing, amazing homes. And he's worked alongside an extraordinary roster of designers including Stephen hall, architects Toshiko Mori, architect Job Moore and partners, Olson Kundig, Kiran Timberlake. It's kind of the who's who list of residential buildings, I would have to say. And David's story starts in northeastern Connecticut, winds through Syracuse, Cape Cod and even a stint in Houston where he and his wife became a standout husband and wife roofing team before ultimately finding unique niche building and restoring minimalist modern homes in the New Canaan area. Deeply connected to the legacy of the Harvard Five. David has captured that journey and the hard earned lessons behind it in a new book, A Builder's Life Done well, which is a candid reflection on 50 years of building, bridging the gap between architectural vision and on the ground reality and running a values driven business. So, David, welcome to ARCA Speak. It's great to have you.
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B
Well, thank you very much, Evan. And Cormac.
- [01:20]
A
Well, I would love to kind of kick this off and I'm going to hold this up for the people who watch this. And Cormac's got one too, which is a copy of the book. And this is not a tiny book, Dave. And what I love about it is that you actually, I think mostly made this book for architects because we just like to look at pictures more than anything.
- [01:41]
B
Intro, it's about the pictures and more pictures and pictures you did and they're all over the place here. And I'm like, boy, I should put all this together in a book.
- [01:52]
A
Well, what's amazing is that photography is incredible photography. And I know that you also wrote about that. You wrote about how important that is when you're trying to develop your business and you have definitely invested in that. So I just want to throw it out there for architects who might be interested in the things we're talking about today. This book is worth grabbing a copy of because it's a wonderful coffee table style book and it's full of amazing images.
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B
Well, thank you, Evan. And I got to take this opportunity. It's available on Amazon.
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A
You do have to take this opportunity. We want to help you sell this book, Dave.
- [02:27]
C
Yeah.
- [02:27]
B
As far as the photography, you brought up a good point. We're very fortunate here in the Fairfield county, in Westchester County. New York and Fairfield County, Connecticut. And then we work a lot in the Hudson Valley. So this is a very high end part of America and the clients and the architects and us as well can afford high end photography. And typically or commonly I should say, well, there'll be a group of us, the architect might ask us to share in the cost and the owner may share as well. And of course we're more than happy. And I learned a long time ago that your photography sells your work and the advertising that I've always done here as a company in magazines, shelter magazines, etc. I rarely. The last thing in the world I'm going to say is on time, on budget, it's just put a photograph and a phone number. This. And judge for yourself, this is a lot of this work is extraordinary and if you can do it, then this might be somebody to call. But you're, you're absolutely right. Photography is critical and good photography, the better the better, right?
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A
That's right.
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C
I didn't. Well, I see a bad one in here.
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A
There's not a bad shot actually.
- [04:01]
B
It could have been better. Some of the, some of the image dark. I'll share that with you.
- [04:07]
C
That it's funny, that's the mark of a true craftsman. It's just like, yeah, it's good, but it could be better.
- [04:12]
B
Well, it would actually. And I was just chatting here with Evan and Nicole. There's a total of 45 different projects represented in this book to the exclusion of another 15, maybe that either we don't have photography of or no permission to represent. So pretty broad strokes. And I did that on purpose. I don't mind sharing the truth to involve as many of our architect friends that we work with as possible to share what they do as well.
- [04:55]
C
I'm actually looking at some of the photography in here and I was somewhat drawn to the Marcel Breuer remodel that you did. And Evan and I were up in the area where some of his houses are last year, an AIA convention. And then we just kind of took a lot of back roads and drove around some of those. And the thing that just strikes me is one that I get to see some of the things that we could only see from the road, but there's more of a peek inside of not just inside the house, but inside the. The way things go together. I mean, the photography isn't just about setting the stage for a good space or a good image. But to me I am more of a. Well, I won't say more of a. But I Lean more towards a technical architect side of things, where I can look at and see good detailing, good joinery, good things like that, you know, and ultimately that good conversation, that good dialogue that you have with, you know, your architects and your subcontractors and things like that to really kind of like, deliver an amazing project that ultimately turns into a really good picture.
- [06:06]
B
That that particular project is detail rich and kind of crazy. There's an image in there of an upstairs downstairs hallway or stairwell. I remember that was the first time we ever had a drop of ceiling below the top of the glazing. The windows are.
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A
So you didn't see that. The edge of the framing.
- [06:33]
B
And then how. Number one. And how do you finish the side and. No. And then there's a whole lot of come together on that job. It's a group effort. Right. It takes a village. Got to figure out how do we do this interesting thing. I don't mind sharing this on that job. There's a cantilever of, like, 17, 18ft. Where that bedroom. There's an image of a. Of a lace recliner. And you're out over the backyard, and it is a cantilever out 17, 18ft. And the camber on the steel was misrepresented. The intention was that the weight of the concrete subfloor would flatten it out, but it didn't. And we had to screed gyp crete half an inch to. To find the perfect level before we could set the glazing.
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C
So. So you were adding weight to kind of get that camber to drop the camber down.
- [07:53]
B
It was miscalculated. That's not something easy, obviously, but it was an interesting challenge we had there. That's quite a project. Yeah.
- [08:04]
C
And here on my projects, I'm trying to lose weight, and here you are adding weight.
- [08:10]
B
So I am live.
- [08:13]
A
Okay. So I. I want to talk about the. The projects from, like, a complexity standpoint as far as the construction goes, because these. These all look like challenging projects to build in one way or another, and they're not traditional. Maybe. Maybe there's some traditional methods involved, but a lot of times there's some really, like Cormac was saying, there's a lot of really intricate detailing. New methods. Maybe at the time that you were building them, lots of materials that are very different than standard materials.
- [08:47]
C
Yeah.
- [08:47]
A
And I'm just curious, like, with your mindset, when you saw. When they. When these designers, these owners were coming to you and saying, you know, here's what we want to build. I'm just Curious what your response to that was, because I think it's hard to find a contractor willing to build these types of projects for. For a lot of owners and a lot of architects. And, and it seems like you were kind of up for the challenge, but I'm curious to hear kind of what, how you responded to that.
- [09:14]
B
Good question.
- [09:15]
A
Challenge.
- [09:16]
B
And yeah, I would look to Evan and Nicole and say they'll figure it out. I literally did. And I said, so in the book. We, we live in an area where McMansions are built and make money for the builders. And again, we're in a very wealthy community here in Fairfield County, Connecticut, and I couldn't quite compete with the people that were doing those on a regular basis. So I welcome and look for the, shall we call them, unorthodox projects and look, fine, we'll figure it out. He'll figure it out or she'll figure it out. And again, I, I want to give credit to. I have a spectacular group of people here and they do. They figure it out. But. So I like that. I mean, I want that. I, I want to work with Toshiko Mori. And Jim Cutler came into town and we met him somehow, and we're looking at a project down in, in Westchester. And he said, hey, by the way, I have a job in the Hudson Valley, which is, I don't know, 100 miles north of here, 70 miles north. And it's a big area of second home and second compound. I think a lot of it has to do with COVID Suddenly people were buying 200 acre plots up north because they could afford him. And they're like, you know, plan B, God forbid if something happens. So Cutler approached me, he goes, hey, I got this job up here and I had a builder, but I don't think he's up to it, to be honest. Would you guys go up there? And I'm like, sure. And he used to. He's. He's tough. I talked about him in the book. He is. Draws everything right down to the head of the nail. But it was fun and it was. Was it a money maker? Not really. We always break even or better. But it was just fun. It's a challenge. I remember walking up the hill with him laying out a driveway. We had to get to a spot. I don't know, I'm 700 foot higher and walking through the woods and yellow tagging trees and don't touch that one. And whacking our way up the hill. So absolutely, I'm not asking for the harder the better, but we, we tackle some tough ones and I think everyone here would tell you, great, it's fun and we'll figure it out and we become part of a team. I would tell you that I've seen details that like, we'll look at that somebody wants to happen and we'll say that isn't the way to do it. You know, there's better ways to do it. And again, as I mentioned in the book, the smart people that we work with, and I'm sure there's many of you feel the same way. Look, let's work it out together. What do you, what is your intention? What do you want it to look like? Maybe we have a better thought or process and we're happy to share that.
- [12:40]
C
Can I interject something here?
- [12:42]
B
Okay, just. Yeah, jump in.
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A
We got to see you. We have to see you out of turn here.
- [12:48]
B
This is another evidence.
- [12:50]
C
No, no, tell them who you are. I hear you.
- [12:52]
D
Yeah. Evan Crowley. I'm a project manager here, 11 years. I think in some ways like getting the challenging projects also becomes like a kind of a self fulfilling loop because Dave keeps hiring people who trained as architects. The reason I came here is because I saw the portfolio and said, okay, I want to go work there, I want to build those houses. And I think a lot of us arrived here the same way and now we keep pushing to get more work like that, more architecturally challenging, interesting work. So I think it kind of has become a bit of a self fulfilling thing. Dave started out doing, finding this niche of these really interesting architectural projects and then that draws in like minded people who want to work on that very, you know, specific type of residential project.
- [13:48]
B
Yeah, graduate. So he knows what he's talking about. You're hogging my high spotlight. Very bright fellow. And he's done a number of very challenging projects here, but one of which I can't really speak about, can I?
- [14:12]
A
An air of mystery around,
- [14:16]
C
I was gonna say, is that the second book?
- [14:19]
B
And we just restored a prominent Frank Lloyd Wright house in the state of Connecticut. Okay, that was fun.
- [14:30]
A
Nice.
- [14:31]
C
I know which one you're talking about, but I'm not going to say anything. But we won't talk about it.
- [14:37]
B
Restoration, not. No additions or alterations, just make it better than the original statement.
- [14:47]
C
You know, we could have gone on a completely different tangent about Frank Lloyd Wright and his details or sometimes lack thereof. But we'll, we'll talk about that in my interjection in part two.
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B
Yeah, you just reminded me.
- [15:01]
C
Sure.
- [15:02]
B
One of the biggest turn ons in my life. Architecturally, aesthetically. I went to a church, and I think it's Wawatosa, Wisconsin. It was a Greek Orthodox church designed by Frank Lloyd Wright, where There were no 90 degree angles in the entire building. The dome ceiling, which apparently is prominent in all Greek Orthodox churches, was done in cement. And it was resting on ball bearings or long ball bearings to allow for expansion, contraction. But walking into that building and not seeing a right angle is just like, what is this? Yeah, this is art. This is.
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A
Something makes you notice. Right. It makes you notice.
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B
Anyway.
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C
Yeah. If you go to, like, the backlog of any of our episodes, I'm the guy who talks a lot about. Right. I volunteer at his home and studio every so often as a docent and stuff. And. And coming to discover. Right. A little bit later in my architectural career, because as. As you're going through architecture, somebody will say to you, it's like, oh, do you want to be the next Frank Lloyd Wright? You're like, no, I want to be the next Corin instead. And so you kind of push back from it. But the more and more you look at it, the more and more you're like, man, this guy was good. Yeah, this guy was really.
- [16:43]
B
I'll share with you about this project is the revelation was that some of these inexpensive materials that were used.
- [16:52]
C
Yeah.
- [16:53]
B
That really, aesthetically were, like, really well done. It really worked. It doesn't have to be the most expensive, you know, plywood paneling.
- [17:03]
C
Exactly. Yeah.
- [17:05]
B
It worked very well. But we. We've made it shine, so it's going to shine on, we hope.
- [17:12]
C
Yeah. So I wanted to bring up one thing because I noticed that, you know, throughout all of the different chapters of your book, you know, one thing was very prevalent in every single one of them, whether you were talking about the client, talking about the architect, talking about the builder is trust. And, you know, one of the interesting things that I kind of saw is that, you know, not only are people coming to you, as, you know, you just talked about, you know, James Cutler coming to you, but, you know, all these people who come to you, you know, there's this level of trust that, you know, each of these parties have to have with each other to be able to kind of execute some of these, build, you know, these houses that you've done. And. And I'm just curious, you know, when, you know, and Evan kind of alluded to, you know, some of these kind of like, weird details or things like that. And. And then the Evan next to you, you know, we're talking about some of the Challenges of, of seeking out some of these things. I mean, you know, like, as. As kind of a role. You know, you've got the trust people coming to you, but then do you become more of, like a mentor to, you know, both the client and the builders and the architect to kind of talk to them about, like, how you would actually execute the design? Because I'll say the reason where, where this question is really kind of coming from is I've always looked to the contractor to, you know, help me understand and learn how things are actually built. You know, this is. This is my design idea. How do I actually build it the way that you would build it so that I can actually get the design I want. But you also don't pull your hair out and curse my name in the background when, you know, when they say, oh, that architect, you know, he. He doesn't know what he's talking about or things like that.
- [19:02]
B
It does happen from time to time.
- [19:06]
A
Just a now and then.
- [19:06]
B
Well, the answer of that, Cormac. Yeah, it's all about trust, right? I mean, we go to bed at night. You hope that the plumber gets out of bed at 8 o' clock because you got a problem at 9 o', clock, and the whole industry is built on that. But, you know, trust is something you earn and you have to have faith in each other. And of course, we're researched as a builder. This guy any good? And I recommend my clients, you know, call the references so you feel more comfortable. We want to. We want to gain their trust. So we start out with that understanding. And of course, with the architect, it's like, thanks for calling. They provide the work. We don't. We get calls from time to time that start with us, but for the most part, you call us and we're like, our job. Well, thank you very much. And we want to take care of your. Of you and your client and earn your trust and hopefully more calls in the future. So that's my point of view. Right. Right off the bat. That's our philosophy here, is help the architect achieve what they want. Now what do we ask for in return? You know, be decent, be civil with us. I tell my clients, if you're fair with me, you'll get it back fivefold. That's all I ask. Once in a while, we screw up. We go, you know, we screwed up. Help me out. Or, you know, we'll bid a job with wood shingles, and overnight Canada will triple the taxes, and suddenly our $50,000 roof might be 150,000. Hey, I'm stuck. So once in a while, hat in hand, we go to the group. But, you know, it's important that you brought that up because it really is a triangle of three parties with one goal. Right, Right. And I tell the owner, you know, years ago, when I was a young guy and I got pushed around more, you know, the owner, we. Dave, you got credit. You know, you don't. Why do you need the money? I'm like, you know, your job is the money. My job is to hammer, and your job is a design. So there has to be an understanding of what each person's role is. And, of course, get this off my chest while I have you two guys, you know, the AI for one. I never think, like, oh, it's an equal triangle. No, it isn't. You guys work for the owner. So we walk into a biased situation. Right? I mean, let's not get about it. And we know that we're, you know, we know that we've gone through dozens of contracts that I never should have signed, that I did, because the clients arc. The client's attorney, you know, locked us out. But it's a matter of trust, right? I mean, you have to say, you know, as bad as this agreement might be eventual, eventually or potentially, you know, I like that guy, and he's not going to hurt me, and he wants his house, and I'll give it to him. And so it's a matter of trust, right? It's earned. It has to be earned and has to be. It has to be maintained. So I hope that answers your question.
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C
Yeah. And I'll tell you, I mean, you know, in my history, which is only half as long as yours, the probably the most rewarding of any of the projects that I have are the projects that you have, that true collaboration between all three parties. I mean, you know, you know that the product will be the best it can be, and, you know, everybody will be happy when they walk away from it.
- [23:23]
B
Well, that's the goal. Every time.
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C
Yeah.
- [23:25]
B
And I'll tell you, we've done well with that. But it takes work. And of course, you know, the owner we respect, I mean, he's the man, he's the boss, and his designated representative, the architect we take orders from. It's, aye, aye, sir. I don't go on a job and try and, like, take over. On the contrary, we want. You know, when I was a younger contractor, I would have more to say than I do now. In the way of suggestions, I suppose I was trying to establish the fact that I knew What I was talking about. Now, nowadays, I don't want to speak. We go into job meetings and trailers and whatnot. You tell us. But when asked, these people know a lot, and they. And I encourage them to share what they know, of course, in the spirit of let's do it really well. So it's. I think you touched on that. It's three parties with one goal.
- [24:37]
C
Yeah.
- [24:37]
B
You know, you have. You have the vision, the owner and the financing. You hire the director. I made a reference to a movie. May you hire the director. He's. He's telling us what to do, representing you, and then we're the players. We get it done and worked out so far. But that's the system.
- [25:02]
C
Yeah.
- [25:03]
A
I'm curious, Dave, if you could share some experiences, like some of your favorite experiences working with owners and architects. Like what? What about that? Chemistry is something that you feel is like. I want to hear, like, the best examples of that because I think it's good to inspire people to what's possible out there, because there's. Speaking back to Cormac's point, like, there's a lot of adversarial relationships in this triangle right out there in the world. But I don't want to focus on that part of it. I want to focus on the positive side of it and say, like, what's possible. And so maybe if you could share some examples of some of the really great experiences you've had.
- [25:43]
B
Again, when there's trust in communication, camaraderie, a little bit of camaraderie. We've had some great experiences recently. Personally, I'm not as involved at that level anymore, but our project managers, like Evan, will report to me, like, gee, it's a pleasure working with so and so available to get on the phone. Available. Here's a real killer available to make decisions like, we need to know, we'll go on a job. And electricians, like, I'm here today and I'm here tomorrow. I need to know what's going on with X, Y, and Z. So we need a partner to say, okay, let me stop what I'm doing, or I'll get over there. I'll see you in an hour. That kind of partnership and help is. And we get it from time to time or most of the time. I would say it's difficult working with an architect from far away for obvious reasons, because you can't get there in an hour. But we do that, and that's our. Our job. And I tell my people, your job is to help them, represent them. They can't get here. So let's figure out a way to communicate. We have an Australian client at the moment and that's weird. That's like 14 hour time zone different. That's been going on for a couple of years. I'm going to turn this over to the young man next to me because I bet you got an answer about working with a good partner. Oh yeah, I'm poor.
- [27:30]
D
My, my. Yeah, my favorite clients are always the ones who are doing it as a passion project.
- [27:39]
B
They all are.
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D
Like it's supposed to be fun like at the level that we're building.
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C
Right.
- [27:45]
D
It's, you know, you can really have fun with it. You're building, building a dream house in big budget. You've got, you know, you can hire a world class architect. And so you know, I find that the, the best projects come from having clients who are really engaged, who have a, who have an aesthetic point of view or have a strong point of view on what that you know, how they want to live, how they want their space to work.
- [28:16]
B
How about working with architects?
- [28:18]
D
Yeah.
- [28:19]
B
Project managers you work with?
- [28:21]
D
Yeah, I've had really good luck with all, all the teams I've worked with. My, I think the most interesting client architect relationship I had was built a, built a house five or six years ago with a woman who was a really eccentric, fantastic woman who had lived all over the world and had very strong point of view about how she wanted to live and, and use her space. And that was very different from what we typically encounter in this area. And she hired an architect who was based in southern India and she would fly him over for the meetings. We would have like one week charrettes where he would come over. We would meet eight hours a day for five days and then he would go back to India and we would, you know, work for four or five weeks and then he'd fly back over. Client lived on the site during the project, like lived in, on the property and was there, was there nonstop. You know, she walked, walked the site with her dogs every day and checked in and everything. Yeah, it was, it was like, it was a really immersive experience sort of doing that project. But I just really appreciate it that she was so invested in it and so excited and always had a point of view about what she wanted or you know, how, how things should look, how things should be working.
- [29:50]
A
Yeah, I, I have a, my sister in law is doing a remodel of a house right now and she was just visiting us. She, she's in Pennsylvania. We're in Oregon. She was just visiting us for the week. And she's like. She's like pulling her hair out. She's like, this is the most stressful thing of my whole life, you know, And I think a lot of owners go through that side of the process too, especially when maybe they're doing a lot of the work themselves to try to save some money. And it's interesting to kind of see the spectrum at which, like, you guys are talking about versus kind of the do it yourselfer mentality that's out there as well. And it's interesting the attitude and how much that kind of shapes the overall experience for everybody on the team. Right? It's. It's really interesting to show up to the job. Like, I keep getting this real teamwork sense from all of you and, like, showing up to the job just kind of eager to be up to the challenge and to get stuff done. And that to me is. Is. I mean, that. That I think is a. There's a lesson in there for people who are in this industry. It's like, that's a really great kind of just outlook and something to bring to the project for sure.
- [31:03]
B
And it's not easy. I don't want to brag about myself, but the best compliment I ever got was from Steve Kieran. Kieran Kimberlake architect, who I'm not particularly close with. We did a spectacular job. The owner hosted a success after the job completion party, which everybody threatens to do, but very few actually do it right. So I'm sitting there with Steve Kieran and he said, Dave, you know, this. This is great. He did a great job here and blah, blah, blah. And I said, hey, Steve, I didn't do anything. I just made sure people were here that knew what to do. And he said, well, but you created the culture, you attracted people and you supported them. And I went, that's a compliment for sure. You know, I found this guy Evan over here who has knocked out some beauties. Like the one he's describing is just. It's in the job there. It's in the book. But amazing project. And the architect, Neil Schoenfelder, right? Amazingly talented guy and, you know, soft spoken and understanding and very good listener, which I stress to people. Here I go. It's important. What are. What are the client. What are they saying? What do they want? And if they. If that. That's really what our role is, to listen. What do you corac. What do you want out of this detail? What are you looking for? So it's important that we really pay attention to what we're being told, because we're not the creators. We're the finished product.
- [33:03]
D
I have a theory about that.
- [33:04]
B
Okay, we got a theory about that.
- [33:08]
D
Yeah, I have a theory that the. The. Because we, you know, we see a lot of plans from a lot of different architects, and I. I feel like the stranger the. The floor plan is, the weirder the floor plan is actually, the better the architect was listening to their clients. Because if the clients wanted a typical floor plan, they would just go buy a house that's already finished.
- [33:32]
C
Oh, sure, right.
- [33:33]
D
And so we. We see a lot of really unusual floor plans, and, like, it's great then to meet the architect and to meet the client and to kind of, as you do the project, begin to understand how they arrived at that design solution.
- [33:51]
B
Right.
- [33:51]
D
So I think. I think a lot of the most talented architects will. Will end up creating some really, really unusual projects in that way.
- [33:59]
B
Okay, so he's feeling my limelight here.
- [34:03]
C
Well, so, you know, you've. You. You've said Dave this a couple of times, and even Evan, you've kind of mentioned this, that, and you. You've downplayed your role that, you know, you're just making somebody else. Yeah, right. But you're making, you know, you're just bringing somebody else's vision to it. And, And I've always, you know, found that, you know, it's. It's the. It's, you know, you actually are the one who has the bigger role because sometimes, not all the time, you know, or at least, you know, egotistically, you know, architects want to think, oh, yeah, my set of drawings is perfect. Here you go. You know, just enjoy it. It's easy to build this. And then obviously, you know, through the, you know, CA process and the, you know, constant back and forth with RFIs and everything else, you find out, oops, they weren't as perfect as I thought they were. And honestly, it's that symbiotic relationship between the architect and the builder that really actually makes these projects come to fruition the way that we really want them to be. And so, I mean, though, I kind of appreciate the fact that you're kind of taking a step back and say, well, but to be quite honest with you, I want to commend you, especially looking at the breadth of all the projects in your book, that they would not be this if it wasn't for you.
- [35:31]
B
Well, thank you, Cormac. I don't know that I agree with that. There's plenty of Good builders out here, especially in our area. We have great competition. Maybe other people would not have his equal amount of interest in involving themselves in something this unique they might like. I'd rather build a McMansion, because, you know, we know how to do that. We know how to put up crown molding, and it's. We don't have to worry about so much about flatness and so on. So maybe they get dragged into a project that isn't as fulfilling. But to us, we want to work for you guys. We want the challenging projects. I think we covered that earlier, but it's more satisfying. Well, it's also more. The people that hire these type of architects, they're into, they want to create something cool. I mean, the. The house in there, the house in Ghent. What a great client. I mean, I won't mention his name, but a major player. World of advertising. And he knew what he wanted. He wanted a statement, and he wanted a glass house. Philip Johnson Glass houses here in New Canaan. I'm sure you probably know that we're in Stanford. We're right near next to New Canaan. But he wanted. That was the inspiration. And I remember, kind of funny, we had a meeting in our office with Toshiko Mori, who's a lovely woman, And I think we heard assistant and the owner. And I remember me and my big mouth, we're looking at these. These renderings, and I said, this is wonderful. How are you going to build? Was just like air. It was glass, and around the corner was glass, and it was just flat roof on top. And I'm like, how? And nobody laughed except me. Yeah, we built it. We got it done.
- [37:52]
C
Because they're looking at it. It's like. Isn't that a question for you?
- [37:54]
B
Yeah. So that's what a contractor does, right? And you put the pieces together.
- [38:03]
C
Well, you know, both. Both Evan and I, you know, have taught architecture in the past, and I'm currently teaching. And one of the things that I try to, you know, espouse to my students is architecture is a team sport. And what. I mean, it's a team sport. It's not just the architect. It's the client. It's the builder. It's, you know, all of the, you know, consultants on the architecture side of things. It's all of the subcontractors on the builder side of things. And so that's when, you know, when I talk about, like, projects of like, this caliber cannot get done if it isn't a team effort.
- [38:39]
B
Agreed. Yeah, I totally agree. Speaking of teaching I have a recommendation. And you know, Yale Architecture is up the street here and we have, I've heard of it. Yeah, we have a few, actually a number of architects that we've worked for who were part of the faculty. There was a Martin Finio, part of the faculty there. Anyway, anyway, suggestion is when you get to senior thesis or whatever, when everybody's like, well, this is what I want to build, they have a little model and drawings. Bring a really good builder in, you walk around and go, how the hell are you going to do this? You can't cantilever, you know, 30ft. It looks good, but you need some construction rationality. Right?
- [39:33]
C
Yeah.
- [39:34]
B
Find a good builder as a consultant to, to, to teach, help teach architects about practicality. I've met a few architects that work, you know, done carpentry and framed houses and. Yeah, that's wonderful. It's not a requirement for your industry.
- [39:56]
C
In a way it should be sometimes because, you know, understanding how things go together, you know, so that when we entrust our designs to you that it's something that's buildable.
- [40:07]
B
I mean, it's better, but it's not a requirement. That's our job. Remember the triangle? You're like, this is what I want. I want, I want this overhang to be thin. I remember we had a job, I won't mention which, where they wanted a flat overhang of a. On a flat roof of like 14 inches that was only say 2 inches thick. Like, you know, how are you going to do that without steel? Or, you know, there was drawn something like a 2 by 10 or something Douglas fir frame, lumber. Well, let's use an LVL or something more rigid or. So that's, that's your teamwork. And this young architect assistant was, you know, wasn't insulted by the suggestion, in fact was receptive. And you know, you got a better idea and let's figure it out. It's a team. That's a triangle.
- [41:13]
C
Architects love to try to do those thin, thin profiles. And you know, it's always the question is exactly what you said is how are you going to build it?
- [41:22]
B
Yeah, well, you know, the team. You consult a builder.
- [41:28]
C
Yeah, absolutely.
- [41:30]
A
Dave, a couple of things that you've done in your career have to do with projects that you've hired an architect to build for you. Like you did a spec house and
- [41:41]
B
then you did another remodeled, I think five or six different buildings in this general area and moved the kids in and lived in houses in renovation. Well, if you recall the. I think it's still, in effect, the capital gains exemption for the renovation of your own property that you own for two year minimum, where you're married, couple your first $500,000 of capital gains is tax free. Or a single person with a quarter million, I mean, where else in your lifetime can you wait, work and make quarter million dollars and pay no taxes? So we did that. We didn't make necessarily quarter million dollars, but I hopped around house to house and yeah, I hired several different architects. That's fun. You know, I was the producer. I had the last say because I had, I was a client, but I was a producer. So I would, I would start by hiring the director I wanted, right? The architect, the designer. And of course I would, I would challenge them or overrule at times, but I liked it. I love the role. I love being the client.
- [43:06]
A
I think the reason I bring it up is because there's a lot of residential, small residential architects out there. I think it's like 80% of practicing architects in the US are sole proprietors or, you know, very small firms. And, and a lot of times they're working with an owner who hires a contractor. And that contractor then is basically trying to say, like, I've got you covered, you don't even need to worry. Like they're trying to distance the owner and the architect or just not even try to get the owner to go with an architect. And now here you are, you're a contractor, a fine home builder, in fact, and you've been there, done that, and you're still hiring an architect to design
- [43:52]
B
and to direct this movie, right, the design build. I mean, are you good at both? You know, design build. I really don't like that. And I, I, I think I've seen, I see mediocrity. I'm not saying 100% necessarily, but yeah, how can you be good at both, you know, if you're a good builder and a good architect or a designer. So no, I, I do not advocate. I, I tell people and I get a lot of inquiries. Sure, you can talk to a design builder. Maybe, maybe the guy gives you a solid B minus design, I don't know. But I, that's not my, that's not my advocacy. I say get a good designer and it doesn't have to be. Everybody starts small, right? Architects, builders. So I would, I would advocate for, hire a designer you like. And I think I mentioned in the book, you know, meet with them several times, talk to their references. It might be an architect who's breaking away from, you know, prominent architect firm. But he's worked on and he did several jobs, and you got a lot of enthusiasm and excitement there. And in fact, I have family members that call me and they go, gabe, we're looking at a house and da, da, da. And, you know, what do you think we do? And we interviewed a prominent guy and then we interviewed somebody who just started their own firm. But we really like her and we think she has some great ideas and she's enthusiastic and available. You know, we know architects will be like, sure, we'll go to work for you spring 27, you know.
- [45:48]
C
Right.
- [45:48]
B
And most people can't wait around if they're hot to trot something, so.
- [45:54]
C
Right.
- [45:55]
B
No, I'm not an advocate of design, Bill. I'm an advocate of hire a good designer and find someone to make it happen.
- [46:06]
A
Best person for the job, best tool for the job. And not settling for a B minus. Right. Like that. That's really what I'm getting.
- [46:13]
B
Definitely, definitely look for the best. Hey, we work for some small firms and thinking of one out loud, but not out loud, and clever ideas. A RISD graduate, female Rhode island school design fear from la. You may not have heard of it, but great gal, and she had some great ideas and it was a good situation. And yeah, we love to help. We want to help her. So that's who we are.
- [46:50]
A
So the projects that you had built for you and that you built yourself, I mean, just talk about what it's like to actually go through that process
- [46:58]
D
and then live there.
- [46:59]
A
And I mean, I know you've kind of gone from one to the next in. This has been a process for you, but. But like, just what did that add to your experience, to your. To your life? I'm curious to hear, because you actually, you put. You put your money where your mouth is when you do something.
- [47:17]
B
And I made some money, too, but a ton of fun. I love it. You know, I'm. I do what I'm told here and what I'm told there. And then I get to be like, I want. I don't want a wood ceiling. I want this. Or I wanted some funky joinery with hardwoods. I'm pointing out over here, I have this cabinet that I had made. It's bubinga doors, which is some kind of African rosewood and a wenge frame. It's just fun. Ridiculous amount of wood and incredibly heavy, like, immovable. But it's so what I can afford to have fun. So, yeah, I did. I love it. And of course, I was married for many years, and my wife God bless her. I would be like, I want green. She'd be like, what? I hate green. And there'd be an architect in the room with us. Listen to this fight about yellow and green. We got through it. And yeah, I'm smart enough to know that you guys are schooled on things that I'm not. I have a sense of joinery and. What's the right word? Structural. Sometimes I think I know more than structural engineers, but I don't. But I know a lot. So you know, our. And our input in that environment would be, look, don't. You don't have to draw an electrical plan yet or. I don't necessarily want to pay for a structural engineering plan yet. Perhaps. Certainly not mechanical. We'll figure it out. Design, build, you know, with a good mechanical contractor. We'll go through the house with you and say, well, you know, here's. They design systems, right? Who else who's better than that? Side journey here. One of the. Another pet peeve of mine is the mechanical engineering that sometimes involved in these projects. It's like a structural engineer. We've seen plans for 6 inch thick garage slabs. 6 inch. You know, I mean, it's overkill, right? Overkill on heating, overkill on structure. And it runs up the cost.
- [49:52]
C
Yeah.
- [49:52]
B
And I don't. Now I'm on a tangent. Look out.
- [49:56]
C
Yeah, do it, do it.
- [49:57]
B
I don't like to mix steel and wood. You know, as a carpenter, you got a switch plate, you got to drill holes. And how about three LVLs? And certainly, I mean, sometimes it's required. I don't know that it's not, but I don't like mixing the two. Plus it causes delays in construction. Waiting for the steel guy. Or he'll be like, I'm waiting for that. And rather than put it all together. So if you can design all wood or all steel, it makes things simpler for the builder. It isn't always possible. We understand that. So I forgot the question. Drinking Scout share.
- [50:48]
D
There you go.
- [50:49]
C
Well, you know, it was worth it.
- [50:53]
B
But no, I enjoyed being. Producing my own projects and making money whenever possible.
- [51:02]
A
Well, your book is divided basically into three sections, right? And what I love about the way that you kind of laid it out is you're actually giving advice and then you're filling these sections with images of amazing projects that aren't necessarily pertinent to that advice. Like your projects are projects, but then you've kind of split it up in this nice way and you're giving advice to clients. So you have a section for the clients. You have a section for the architects and you have a section for the builders. And I actually really appreciate that about it. And you didn't write a ton of stuff in this book, so, again, this is the perfect book for architects because we like to mostly look at pictures. But I did really appreciate the kind of advice that you put into the book. And it really shows that you are a team player in that way and that you do care about the outcome and that everybody has to play their part to achieve that. Yeah, I think there's something in here because as an architect, I'm actually really. I'm actually paying more attention to the. For the clients and for the contractors part than I even am for the architects part, which is going to be me as your audience, but because I want to learn something about what you've learned about how to work with clients, and I want to learn something with how you want me to work with contractors.
- [52:20]
D
Right.
- [52:20]
A
So I felt like that was a really cool aspect to the book.
- [52:24]
B
Yeah. No, no presumptuousness. I. I don't have all the answers. By no means. But I have some answers. I have an experience and I'm more than happy to share. I've been in the room with, you know, I. I've seen some really ugly situations where wealthy owners, or I've been in the room while they're scrutinizing an arc. A dignified, particularly dignified older architect's bill in front of me. You know, inappropriate. Come on. And of course, then he turns it around on me. Well, what do you think of his extra bills? And so, yeah, I've had a lot of experience. I'm happy to share, certainly. And we still get a lot of calls here from people contemplating buying a lot and building a house. I actually wrote it. I got a published magazine article where basically the theme was, don't even think about building new around here. Because first of all, the land that's left is. Is not great. Naturally. All the best. Lots of. In wherever you guys live is probably taken. Who would take anything but the best they can have. Second of all, the regulations, like in this area, and I'm sure everyone around the country are just getting more and more stringent. Like what? You know, we can't dump water on the ground anymore. We gotta. We gotta percolate it back into the ground. Okay. You know, and that's expense, expense, expense, expense. Engineer for this, engineer for that. Add it to the plan. It's very difficult for people to be able to afford their dream, which is How I got in the business, you know, we all like, well, we have a dream about building our own. I see one of your flipping through your recent podcasts in one was titled why architects can't build their Di. Why their do it Yourself. I get it, I get it. But no, it's just a difficult market out there right now. It's so expensive and the added regulation is not making it easy. On the contrary.
- [54:54]
C
Yeah.
- [54:54]
B
So yeah, I don't know, I'm trying to tell people like forget buying a lot, buy a tear down or buy, buy the nicest house or the ugliest house in the best neighborhood and then fix it, change it. And that's really, that's you guys got to have the vision. Like I know what I think I know what to do here because these old houses are probably sitting on some decent lots with views or location or something and start from that, but starting on a raw piece of ground, you know, drilling wells and septic systems and driveways and clearing trees and landscape. So look for a tear down. I mean that was part of my advice and interview architects, definitely hire an architect. Well, I used to hear like what I'd get called in on a renovation or something or potential and I'm like, well, you know, who, where are the plans coming from? Who's, who's drawing a plan? Well, my husband's best friend from you know, University of Michigan who lives in Palo Alto is going to draw. I'm like, no, no
- [56:15]
C
thanks, thanks for looking out for us.
- [56:18]
B
No, it's like, you know that what that says to me is cheap. We're not going to pay an architect down the street who we interviewed what he wants. We're going to go cheap with the brother in law. What does that tell me? They're going to go cheap with me too. They're not willing to do it right then maybe this is not a project we want to be involved in. I got a quick story leaving put. I got a great story you guys.
- [56:49]
A
How long can we go ahead and do it? Do it now?
- [56:53]
C
I'm totally good.
- [56:54]
B
So I got a call years ago, met a woman and she wanted a barrel vault, copper clad entry to her house. And she had some doodles or something, cocktail napkin. And I remember banging away. I mean how much is this? How much? Just a guess. I've learned like first number you hear, you never forget it. So how much? What do you think? And I'm like, I have no idea, just give me a guess. I'm like fine, 35,000. So a few days Later I'm talking to a lumberyard friend of mine. He goes, hey, Dave, I heard you're really expensive. What are you talking about? The woman with the barrel vault called the lumberyard. Like, do you know any builders that I should talk to? And he said, yeah, tell Dave Pruning. She goes, oh, not him. He's outrageously expensive. The moral of the story is don't offer a guess because they never let go. Well, you told me years ago, you told me it was going to be this. You know, they don't forget.
- [58:15]
A
So it's price anchoring. Price anchoring is a real, real psychological.
- [58:19]
B
I don't know how you didn't. How many times have we heard. Well, you know, our architect told US it was 300,000 and you're 600,000 and you know, it comes back. Right.
- [58:33]
A
So what do you think about that part of it? A lot of people who go to an architect think an architect should know how much it costs to build the thing that they're designing. And I think a lot of architects don't know because they're not the builder and they're not working and ordering the materials and.
- [58:47]
C
Right.
- [58:47]
A
And so I'm curious. Like, this also kind of points back to this, like you got to have all of the parties at the table kind of a thing.
- [58:54]
B
Well, that's our, that's. That's what we call negotiated bid. You want to chip in on this, Evan might be better. I would say that 60, 70% of them, we rarely do lump sum bids that are. And I frankly, I prefer that. I'm comfortable. I like to make a deal and then I don't want to quibble about, well, you gave it us an allowance for, you know, $50 per door hit knobs, and now you're at 300 or whatever. You chose Baldwin or whatever. So the negotiated bid, most of our jobs here, I'll describe that for you. You know, let Evan chip and a client will come say, well, you know, this is what we have. This is the first round of plans. And we'll try and give realistic budgets like, based on prior jobs of similarity. And then we'll establish a number. It's a guess, an educated guess. And then we'll fine tune it based on, well, gee, do I have to spend X amount of money on my master bathroom tile? Isn't that a lot? Well, glass tile is da, da, da. So negotiate. A bid is open books. We'll say, well, here, here's the estimate we got from two different electricians who we like to use now. Granted, our tastes are perhaps more expensive than the average, but you've accepted the fact that we're a high end builder and do a good job and support the work and all those good things. So you have accepted the fact that we're going to be perhaps 5% more than average, but not necessarily. But so the negotiated bid works like that. It takes months, you guys would call it pre construction where and I always tell people, you know, you can walk away. I mean we, we like to get paid for pre construction. We think that's a reasonable request and we oftentimes give back the money if we go to contract. But you can get, you can walk away. So we're basically a price consultant in terms of negotiated bid. You have, you have a comment here? Hang on, I'm going to give you.
- [61:24]
D
Yeah, I mean I think we're big advocate pre construction also because we've seen our share of projects that, you know, we, we get brought in to bid on a 100 CD set and the client is ready, you know, ready to sign a contract and, and get started and then the bid comes back at, you know, 8 million and, and the client said, oh, my budget was 4.
- [61:55]
C
Right.
- [61:56]
D
And it's like, well, you wonder how it got to you wonder how the design got that far and all the way through construction documents without checking, you know, without checking like the base budget assumption. So we're a big advocate of doing pre construction because even on a limited set of drawings on, you know, at the end of schematic design, we can look at a project and give you a total plus or minus 20%. And that's a big margin. But it also is very useful in making sure that you're not 50% over your budget. We can give you that range. You pay a modest amount for pre construction services. We give you that range, you say, great, I want to shave 10% off and I want to go to construction documents with that target in mind.
- [62:51]
C
Right.
- [62:51]
D
And I think that the projects that we started in pre construction, we all, all, you know, you can walk away at the end of pre construction, but they never do.
- [63:05]
B
Yeah, they never do.
- [63:06]
D
Percentage of pre construction that goes to contract is so high because by the time the construction documents are done, everybody is, you know, everybody's working well together, everybody's excited about the project and, and things are ready to go.
- [63:21]
B
That's what I tell the clients. I go during this process of negotiated bed pre construction, you're going to get to know the people you're going to be working with. You're either Going to, you're going to gain confidence. And then we segue into a, a job that's. We figured out some stuff in advance. And these are all big jobs. I was thinking about it on a list in heaven. But my advice to architects, at whatever level, if they're the answer to your question, like, well, how much is this going to cost me, Evan, should be, well, let me take our plans, our tentative plans that you've approved that you like. You're not committed to anything other than paying me for my time or whatever. Let me take it to a couple of builders that I know that I like or perhaps someone you have heard about. Somebody built my neighbor's house are great. My neighbors rave in the bottom. Fine, let me take it to a couple people for some round estimates to make sure we're within 20% of your budget by getting some feedback. Because you don't know, you don't know the cost of lumber and all the things that are pertinent. That would be my advice. That's how you approach that.
- [64:48]
D
By the way, the modern stuff's a lot harder to bid.
- [64:50]
B
Oh, yeah,
- [64:53]
C
yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you tend to get any pushback when you're talking about that, you know, that pre bid process? I mean, because, you know, what I see is, you know, value added to the project because, you know, as what Evan was saying about, you know, getting to, you know, the 100% CDs, and it becomes, you know, 8 million instead of 4 million, you know, and so now you're basically taking a hatchet to a project to get it down to 2,4 million rather than, you know, going through the process of this pre bid process so that you are actually seeing where, you know, you might have elevate over the budget, you know, and where you can kind of like rein it back in. And so, you know, do you have a hard time selling that kind of like that, that service to, to potential clients?
- [65:39]
B
I think, I think, I think the smart clients know, but the people who are talking about money all the time from day one. Yeah, they don't. They're like, what do you mean I got to pay to get a bid? I can get three bidders out there tomorrow. Okay, well, that's a bad sign again to us because that's not wise. You know, you hear the stories all the time about the low bitter blues. Oh, this guy told me it was only going to be blah, blah, blah, and then, oh, you didn't detail the nail heads and that's extra. And he didn't say we had to drill a wall, whatever. So I. No, I think that joint pricing approach, and it's not a science. And it's like we do cost plus. I don't like cost plus person, but how else do we do these jobs? We don't know necessarily. And I mentioned in the book, so many of these jobs start way before they should. But then again, waiting for a complete set of detailed plans where you have specified the doorknobs, the bath tiles for three, four bedrooms, and giving us all the data to get a specific bid. I mean, that's a lot of work. And they got to pay you to do that. So that's where the allowances come in, the budgeting. But it, you know, it takes and put architects like anybody over experience. And I know a couple of people who will post completion, calculate, you know, the square foot costs for this type of job and their books galore and all that. We don't. We don't trust anyone that does estimating, you know, by the book. Because all our projects are unique.
- [67:41]
C
They're one off.
- [67:42]
B
Yeah, they're one offs. Most of them are. And therefore, we develop the bidding and the budgeting here. And then how do we sell it? Well, what it is, again, we have a markup, we have a fee, and we have management to pay for. But the cost is the cost. You want XYZ bathtub, it's, you know, $4238. I mean, I. From one. If one guy says it's 2800, he's lying there.
- [68:16]
C
Yeah, yeah. We always just like, you know, you get what you pay for. Right. And when they say it's the low bid, you can see the big difference between what you're producing and what that low bidder is producing.
- [68:29]
B
You know, Cormac, I have. I have an admission. When I was a nobody builder, I was a low bidder. And I knew, I mean, if. If somebody's bidding a job against us today, or if I was, if I'm bidding a job against our company and I don't have our credentials and our portfolio and our history, and I better not be the same price. Who would you hire? You have an excellent contractor in your area and you have somebody who's competing with him, he better be cheaper. And I have these guys that go out on their own. They work for a Sheetrock company or something. They go out on their own and they're like, well, I get the same square foot as, you know, my former employer. Well, you're not your former employer. You don't have their credentials. Their track record, their skill set, their. And their capabilities, their number of employees that could do two jobs at once. You better be cheaper. So. Right.
- [69:44]
C
Architects do the same thing.
- [69:45]
B
Yeah. See? Are we learning each other, gentlemen? Are we learning?
- [69:51]
C
Yeah. Yeah.
- [69:54]
A
Something that Evan mentioned earlier, and it's in your book too, is that you've at some point began hiring more architectural professionals into your company. Can you talk about. Yeah.
- [70:07]
B
Talk about a big move. I started on my spec house there. An arc, you know, that was back in 2008, I think it was when the economy. I don't know where you were then, but crushing everywhere. Oh, yeah. I remember visiting architect's office in Manhattan. I used to go out regularly with my portfolio. You know, hello, I'd like, you know, call us. We're good. I remember walking into firms where there'd be, you know, 20 desks and only three people working. So a lot of people were getting laid off, and it was slow. That was when I built a spec house, like an idiot. But I kept. But I. I kept a lot of real good tradesmen close at hand working for me. One sec. What was I thinking about? Okay, I got to come back around, and the phone is distracting me.
- [71:09]
A
Hiring architects.
- [71:11]
B
Thank you. So the project architect on my spec house, it's called the new Cana Modern, cool cell job. And again, I gave these guys, like, knock me out, give me something cool. He got laid off, and I ended up hiring him from the architects firm just to finish my job. And he was a teacher at RPI up in Troy, New York? Yep. And I don't know then or a little after that, he called me, go, hey, Dave, you know, I have these really skilled, talented people that can't get a job. No architects are hiring. I really recommend you talk to them. So I ended up hiring three grads from rpi. One of them finished first in his class. He looked like a plumber, pants hanging down. And yet he was brilliant academically. And I threw him on a construction job with one of my best carpenter builders buddies. And he was like the lumper, you know? And I'd asked my friend, how's this young guy? It's good. He's smart. So he became a PM or a job supervisor for us. And I brought in two young females into the office, one of whom is still working for us, who lives in Colorado and works remotely. And it's the smartest thing I ever did. Then a year or so later, the same guy said, hey, I got another one. Another person I recommend. Boom. Crown improved.
- [73:00]
A
So talk about why it was the smartest thing you ever did. I'm very curious why it was smart, but also what they're doing.
- [73:05]
B
It was a different mindset. You know, I'm a carpenter and I work with other carpenters, but suddenly had someone that could talk to you guys and talk to your language and say, no, Dave, what they want is this and that. Plus, it was just an education level. Like here. Evan here is from graduating Pratt. Right. And he worked for. What was the firm he worked for the big one. So son. And it's just. It elevated our capabilities. Right. Well, he knows something. He used to build models for som Evan did. I was looking for something different, and I wanted to get in and offer my clients and architects something more. So it was a good move. It was a great move. It's paid off handsomely. Of those four people that I hired from RPI, two are still working for us. One left recently. So we're talking 10, 15 year careers here. And they're happy. They're, you know, they're still around. Great architecture, but it isn't necessarily something they create. And then we've had architects, practicing architects just say, you know, I'm tired of it. I want to be on your side that have approached us, that we've hired, who've become wonderful project managers because they know the deal and they know the intent. So, yeah, very smart move on my part to broaden the capabilities and more tools. I tell people around here, like, our assets and our tools, our people and what they can know or. Or like they can find out. So I tell people, just find out. If somebody says, hey, what color, you know, am I limited to in this? Da, da, da. Well, I don't know, but I'll find out and I'll get back to you. So just broadening our skill sets and broadening our tool base.
- [75:18]
C
Can I add percent sure.
- [75:20]
B
It's happened.
- [75:21]
D
I think, I think a lot of times clients or architects may not realize how many decisions the contractor makes on their behalf.
- [75:34]
C
Yeah, small.
- [75:35]
D
Like, you know, hundreds and hundreds of small decisions. Where. Where do I. Where do I put that outlet? How do I terminate the trim at this corner? You know, ease is that corner looks a little wonky. Is that acceptable or not?
- [75:51]
B
You know?
- [75:51]
D
Right. Do I.
- [75:52]
C
Right.
- [75:52]
D
Do I just keep going or do I stop everything and have them rip it out and do it again? And I think those decisions are made differently when the contractor on site isn't. Is an architect when the contractor on site is there because, like, they're primarily interested in creating a Great finished product. So I think that's also helped continue to bring in the caliber of work that, that Dave brings in, is that, you know, you, you see that in the finished product, you know, so, Dave,
- [76:29]
B
I said an article. I have one sentence in the book I really was proud of. I was like, well, I don't. What, who, who, who just makes decisions on the job. And I've. Listen, I. Owners really choke. Come on. I mean, we need to know what color you want and have you chosen your tile for the bathroom? And by the way, the locksmith is going to be here this afternoon, wants to know if you want a deadbolt here or if you want that or you want a lock on your daughter's dead.
- [77:02]
A
Overwhelming.
- [77:03]
B
And it's overwhelming. And I remember we had a pregnant woman, the client, who I was like, wow, this is not healthy. And she was upset. So I said a line in the book, turn to Cormac, Cormac, what should I, what color should I get here? It's your, your educated professionals. That's why you hire these people to help you make decisions that, frankly, is not your expertise. So when you ask me about how I was as a client when I hired the architect, I had big ears, too. I'd be like, well, what do you think? And I had some situations that were, you know, go for it. That I was very happy with the results. So hopefully we answered your question.
- [77:54]
A
Yeah.
- [77:55]
B
Nice.
- [77:55]
C
Yeah. Dave, do you mind if I ask Evan one real quick question out of curiosity?
- [78:01]
B
He's much easier. Well, can't.
- [78:04]
C
Well, no, no. So, you know, as, as an architect who's, you know, basically gone, let's say, to the other side of the table? I mean, I'm just kind of curious, you know, obviously you're not looking back, but, you know, what was that transition like going from, you know, working for notable firms, large firms, things like that, to, you know, this, this type of a, of. Of career pursuit and, you know, because there's, there's so many people out there that, you know, don't necessarily feel like the traditional architecture path is right for them.
- [78:38]
D
Yeah, it was great for me because I was never a particularly good designer. I was always, I was always more interested in the technical side, in the, in the execution of the project and seeing how all the trades came together or. So I think, I think there, Yeah, I think there's a lot of opportunity for people who trained as architects but are. Are more technically minded. There's also, there's also like a, some quality of life aspect to having a job where you're on site all the time.
- [79:15]
B
Right.
- [79:16]
D
There's. There's something really nice. I mean, I'll spend two or three days a week on site. And there's something really fulfilling in that. Something really satisfying,
- [79:31]
A
I would imagine, too, like just actually, you know, going from paper to site. Right. And just getting all of that input and seeing it happen. A lot of architects don't get to experience that these days. Right. A lot of, especially new graduates, they're just like, you know, mouse pushers, keyboard clickers, and they have to produce drawings and they don't get. It's hard to get. I should just say that, to get out on site, it's hard to get that real world experience because it's not where their value is assigned to in a modern architectural practice. And I would imagine it's very different in a contractor's kind of. In your world.
- [80:14]
B
You said that very well.
- [80:15]
C
And
- [80:17]
B
I took. Are you done with Evans also?
- [80:22]
D
I've learned the whole. I've learned most of my job by talking to the tradesman on science.
- [80:27]
B
Yeah, there you go.
- [80:29]
D
They're the best resource. You know, that, that.
- [80:32]
C
Absolutely, yeah.
- [80:33]
D
That's.
- [80:34]
B
Yeah. I mean, if you've got a plumbing issue, you're like, well, what do you recommend? Why do you use mixed tubing and not copper? What? How come?
- [80:42]
C
Right.
- [80:43]
B
And it's always. It's a learning experience for all of us, sharing info and knowledge that we experience.
- [80:54]
C
My contention is the. The best designs come from the architect's mastery of the. Of understanding what the materials that they design with can do. And the best way to learn about that through my career has been to talk to the trades who put it in, you know, to say, you know, hey, you've been designing with this type of window system, but you know that that's not really the best type to achieve what you're trying to do. And, you know, the way that you're showing the detailing, you know, would be better if you did it like this. And I've learned how to, you know, improve my craft by understanding the materiality, you know, and where do I learn that from? You know, exactly what Evan said. You learn it from the people, the tradesmen that you work around.
- [81:42]
B
That's a bigger triangle.
- [81:45]
C
Even bigger triangle. Yes. But still a triangle.
- [81:48]
B
Yeah. It's not a triangle anymore. Yeah.
- [81:50]
C
Yes, exactly. Yes. Yeah.
- [81:56]
A
Well, Dave, this has been a great conversation. Thank you for going down all the different trails with us during this.
- [82:04]
B
The book.
- [82:05]
A
I'm going to hold it up one more time here. A builder's Life done well. And this book is available on Amazon. We're going to put a link to it in the show notes for this episode. I don't think authors earn enough money for the amount of effort that are put into these books. But I really appreciate the thing that you've put together here and I hope you sell millions of these cop these books and we're going to do our best to help promote it for you. And it's, it's just, it's been a really fun conversation.
- [82:37]
B
Appreciate that.
- [82:38]
C
Absolutely.
- [82:39]
B
And yeah, it's not a money making procedure, but it's again, it's like a speck house. I've said in the book above my spec house, I had so much fun. It was, it was so, so much fun. And learning about how to qualify for the lead, remember back when it was lead was a big deal. How to qualify. You can't use bamboo because it hops under the stone wall and to the neighbors. So right, right now, listen, my, I always knew I had this niche of like, you know, Stephen Hole can produce a book of Stephen Hole designs. And he's cool. I got to meet him a couple times and that's great. But I can show you, you know, Evan Troxell Cormac books and their work and this guy's work and, and again, the photography, because of these people, they invest in the photography, including us, is great. So I just finally, I was like, I gotta, you know, kind of put this together. Phase two in a couple of years.
- [83:53]
A
Amazing. Well, we hope to be able to feature that as well and have another conversation with you. Thanks once again, Dave. This has been a fun conversation.
- [84:00]
B
Thank you both.
- [84:01]
C
Thank you very much.
- [84:01]
B
Thank you both.