Bob Lazar Meets Travis Walton for the First Time - The Flying Saucer Diner

Summary

AREA52 - DEBRIEFED With Chris Ramsay

Episode: Bob Lazar Meets Travis Walton for the First Time - The Flying Saucer Diner

Release Date: June 26, 2026
Guests: Bob Lazar, Travis Walton
Host: Chris Ramsay (present in spirit but not actively hosting during this conversation)

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Episode Overview

This extraordinary episode brings together, for the first time ever, Bob Lazar and Travis Walton—two of the most prominent and controversial figures in UFO history—for an intimate conversation over coffee and pie at the "Flying Saucer Diner". The discussion explores their personal UFO encounters, the media and public reactions, the deeper mysteries of non-human intelligence, and how their lives have intersected with both belief and skepticism. The conversation is unscripted, candid, both technical and philosophical, delving into details rarely shared elsewhere, with the two witnesses trading theories, debunkings, and stories—all with a distinctly grounded and thoughtful tone.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. First Meeting and Shared Experiences

• Setting the scene: The episode begins with light chat as Travis and Bob meet at the diner, order coffee, tea, and pie.
• Both men acknowledge their mutual disinterest in continually reliving their UFO experiences but feel compelled due to ongoing public curiosity.
• Travis: “As far as UFOs are concerned, as little as possible.” (01:43)

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2. Travis Walton’s Abduction: Fact vs. Hollywood

• Discrepancies in "Fire in the Sky":
  • Travis calls out "contradicting information" in the dramatized film adaptation of his story. He notes that Hollywood added scenes such as the membrane over his face and other disturbing imagery not present in reality. (03:21)

    “They knew I wasn’t gonna like that... none of that happened. They just fabricated all that.” — Travis (04:12)

  • The true experience was suffocating, terrifying, but not as graphically violent as the film depicted.
• Physical Description of the Craft:
  • Travis recalls details: the craft was larger than he remembered, had curved corners inside, no harsh angles, similar to Bob’s reported craft. (05:50, 07:03)

    “Descriptions of your craft resemble what we saw more than any other report I've seen.” — Travis (06:04)

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3. The Incident: The Beam and Aftermath

• Travis Details the Encounter:
  • He was the only one to exit the truck; others stayed behind. Travis adamantly denies the “mind control” theories, joking, “The mind control was to make you stay in the truck. I was the one resisting it.” (10:15)
  • Travis describes being struck by a bolt or beam as the craft was powering up (11:30), feeling as though he was “hit by a stunning force”—the impact described by witnesses as a “laser beam” or “blue flame.” (13:35)
• Ambulance Hypothesis:
  • Bob brings up a theory that the abduction was an “ambulance move”—aliens trying to revive Travis after his injury, not a planned abduction.
  • Travis notes physical effects: a brainwave scan showed unusual patterns, possibly residual from “healing that was provided.” (18:48)

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4. The Trauma and Recovery

• Medical and Psychological Aftermath:
  • Barrow Neurological Institute scan: an "alternating wave" in brain activity—later disappeared. (18:48)
  • Dr. Harder’s hypnosis helped Travis process trauma—not for memory retrieval, but to allow him to talk about the event. (20:29)

    “It removed that... so I could actually talk about it without secondary negative effect. That really aided my recovery.” — Travis (21:19)

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5. The Crew and Social Fallout

• Relationships Post-Incident:
  • Some crew members developed resentments and alternate explanations as media attention focused on Travis. (24:12)
  • Jealousy, accusations, polygraph tests, and later, attempts by detractors to bribe crew members for negative testimony. (25:27 - 29:04)

    “He demanded that I have the book reprinted to take out [that he cried]... Mike cried. He admits to that. I cried. He was strong; he just doesn’t know it.” — Travis (26:16)

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6. Lifelong Impact and Public Perception

• Lasting Effects and Recognition:
  • Travis is still frequently approached and recognized; beard grown back for anonymity. (31:19)
  • Ongoing skepticism and debunking, but also new scientific evidence has emerged supporting details of the incident. (31:32)
• Media, Debunkers, and UFO Culture:
  • Travis discusses how he stays out of the business of judging other cases, but notes, “Bob’s craft was the closest to what we saw.” (32:18)
  • Bob and Travis express frustration over misinformation: “I looked through [the script]—that has nothing to do at all with what happened... Well, we got it all off the Internet. That doesn’t mean it’s...” — Bob (69:26)

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7. The Science, UFOs, and the Limits of Knowledge

• Physics and Cosmic Perspective:
  • Discussion about universe expansion, the James Webb telescope, size and age of the universe. (37:24)
  • Playful skepticism of modern physics—Travis questions the speed of light, Bob discusses relativity with a practical, engineer’s mindset. (40:44 - 44:36)

    “It’s like an article of faith. It’s not logical.” — Travis (41:20)

• Craft Details and Theory:
  • Travis discusses appearance/feel of the craft’s interior, archways, chair with star patterns visible only when in close proximity, and the “glowy” yellowish color. (47:12 – 54:30)

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8. Alien Beings: Description and Theory

• Behavior and Communication:
  • Aliens observed inside the craft maintained composure; never uttered a word, possibly telepathic. (09:17, 59:33)
  • Travis speculates their large eyes are for seeing in dim light, possibly with “contact lenses” or “biological adaptations.” (58:13)
• Humanoid Entities:
  • “Human” figures may have been presented to comfort him or facilitate cooperation, possibly artificial in nature. (61:10–62:05)

    “Whether this was some kind of creation... or a species that looks very human, I don’t know. They sure looked like people to me.” — Travis (61:15)

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9. UFOs, Misinformation, Government, and Theories

• The UFO Crash Conundrum:

  • Skepticism about the abundance of “crash stories”; Bob and Travis agree much of the lore is wild or incorrect, blending government, misidentification, and genuine encounters. (68:42–72:08)
  • Discuss possibility of intentional misinformation as camouflage. (72:08)

    “I wondered about that. You suppose all these stories are floating around out there just for camouflage?” — Travis (72:08)

• Government Disclosure:

  • Both discuss the change in government approach—releases of Pentagon videos and strategic admissions of the mysterious. (73:03–74:36)
  • Travis presents a nuanced view: secrecy is necessary for national security, not maliciousness. (76:41)

    “As long as we keep our stuff secret, they (other countries) don’t dare make a move…” — Travis (77:43)

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10. Technology, Society, and Readiness

• Hidden Technology and Societal Impact:
  • Worries over introducing “free energy” or advanced tech; consensus that it would destabilize the economy and could be weaponized. (78:59–80:03)

    “If we could teleport, suddenly nobody has a job. Technology could be too good to release.” — Bob (79:21)

  • “From the alien's point of view, the natives are getting restless. We're a bunch of savages... I can understand perfectly why they would not come down and share advanced technology with us.” — Travis (80:58)

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11. Early Life Encounters & The Anthill Theory

• Travis’s Childhood Encounter:
  • Travis recounts a vivid memory from childhood involving a small being in a black jumpsuit—considered by his family to be a dream, but he remains convinced otherwise. (87:25–91:34)
  • Discusses the potential for long-term tracking by “them”—linking early life encounters to later abduction stories.
• Anthill Analogy:
  • Comparing human-alien interaction to people ignoring ants, then reconsidering if the “ant” is familiar or of interest. (92:14)

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12. Self-Reflection, Validation, and Staying Grounded

• Both men emphasize a hard line between what they know, have witnessed personally, versus speculation.
  • “I try to distinguish between what happened, what I can report factually, accurately, and just what's my own theory.” — Travis (86:01)
  • “I draw a hard line between what I know, what I experienced and what I believe might be true, and what I've heard from others. I don't let them ever cross over.” — Bob (86:23)
• The discussion ends warmly, with mutual respect, a steady undercurrent of humility, and a refusal to inflate or embellish their experiences for public acclaim.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Media and Misinformation:

  “There is so much contradicting information... And they’re all wrong.” — Bob (03:21)
  “They just fabricated all that... None of that happened.” — Travis (04:12)

• On Trauma:

  “It removed that [trauma]... so I could actually talk about it.” — Travis (21:19)

• On Science and Infinity:

  “The size and scope of the universe was expanded so much by the James Webb Telescope...” — Travis (37:24)

• On the Human Condition and Advanced Tech:

  “From the alien’s point of view, the natives are getting restless. We’re a bunch of savages.” — Travis (80:58)
  “That would be a foolish thing to do. That’s like giving a three-year old a loaded gun.” — Bob (81:25)

• On Government Secrecy:

  “Their secrecy is justified and necessary.” — Travis (78:05)

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Important Timestamps

• 01:27–03:15: The two meet, order, and begin discussing abduction beings and Hollywood inaccuracies.
• 05:23–06:23: Shared craft descriptions; comparison of their encounters.
• 10:15–13:58: Travis describes the beam, physical effects, and crew reactions.
• 18:48–21:19: Brainwave anomalies, hypnosis, and processing trauma.
• 24:12–29:27: Crew relationships, media attention, jealousy, and attempts to bribe witnesses.
• 37:24–44:36: Universe size, physics, skepticism toward scientific dogma.
• 53:58–55:06: Travis details the “star chair” inside the craft—unique to his experience.
• 72:08–77:36: On government secrecy, public release of UFO videos, and national security concerns.
• 87:25–91:34: Travis’s childhood experience, the anthill theory, and possible lifelong tracking by UFO entities.

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Conclusion

This groundbreaking episode offers listeners the rare opportunity to be a fly on the wall for a conversation between two of the most significant UFO witnesses of modern times. The exchange is relaxed, unsensational, and rich in technical and emotional detail, giving both believers and skeptics much to ponder. The episode is an essential listen (or read) for anyone interested in the UFO subject—debunking myths, echoing the humility of true witnesses, and ultimately urging discernment, open-mindedness, and an acceptance of uncertainty.

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Transcript

[Waitress/Server]

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[Travis]

You're in your apartment alone. Then you hear something. You think, was it just the storm? You realize you're not alone. Your living room is not safe with Unhinged, the new immersive game experience brought to you by Netflix. To make it out alive, you must answer the phone. The question is, when your phone rings, will you answer? Tap the banner to play Unhinged now only on Netflix.

[Bob]

Hey, Travis.

[Travis]

Hey, Bob. How's it going?

[Bob]

Oh, not bad. I haven't seen you in a while.

[Travis]

Yeah.

[Bob]

How long did it take you to get here?

[Travis]

Quite a while. It was quite a trip, but enjoyed the scenery.

[Bob]

What have you been doing these days?

[Travis]

Just working around the house. And as far as UFOs are concerned, as little as possible.

[Bob]

I hear you there.

[Waitress/Server]

Good afternoon, gentlemen.

[Bob]

Heather.

[Waitress/Server]

Can I offer you guys some coffee, tea, water?

[Bob]

Oh, absolutely. Coffee.

[Travis]

I have the tea. Sugar only.

[Waitress/Server]

Tea. Sure, if you want. We have a chocolate pie and an apricot pie. I can come back later. Yeah. You want a piece of that?

[Bob]

Okay.

[Travis]

Sure.

[Bob]

Never turn it down.

[Waitress/Server]

Yeah, I forgot times two.

[Travis]

Okay.

[Waitress/Server]

Okay.

[Bob]

Hey, I always wanted to ask you something.

[Travis]

Yeah?

[Bob]

The. Yeah. The human like beings that you saw.

[Travis]

Yeah.

[Bob]

What made you so sure that they weren't human?

[Travis]

Well, the sort of rigid pre planned movements that. Controlled movements, I would say they didn't.

[Bob]

They didn't move.

[Travis]

Well, like. Like they should. But I'm in a panic. Screaming, yelling and everything. Sure. And they're just maintaining this. They're cool, calm and collected and just on task.

[Bob]

But. But physically they. I mean. Yeah, they just seem like.

[Travis]

I think that was the intention.

[Bob]

The plan maybe to make you more comfortable.

[Travis]

Something. Make me cooperate. Yeah.

[Bob]

Yeah, it was. I recently looked at Fire in the sky, the movie and in fact I was trying to show my wife Joy, your story and. Holy cow. There is so much contradicting information about. About everything. Every single thing you look at tells a different story. And they're all wrong. Thanks.

[Travis]

Yeah. Well, I understand that, you know, Hollywood dramatizations are not documentaries, but I think they went a little too far afield. And they knew it.

[Bob]

Oh, they knew it.

[Travis]

Yeah, they didn't put the part aboard the craft in this copy of the script that they gave me.

[Bob]

Really?

[Travis]

Yeah.

[Bob]

So, I mean, just.

[Travis]

They knew I wasn't gonna like that.

[Bob]

The whole thing with you in the membrane and the dead bodies and them drilling in your eye, none of that. They just fabricated all that. And you didn't know about that ahead of time?

[Travis]

Right.

[Bob]

That's. That's unbelievable.

[Travis]

Well, there's a few things that could be classified as a story device. The membrane over the actor's face. He's struggling to breathe, struggling to scream through it. I was, in my actual experience, feeling suffocated. And, you know, how do you express that if you don't have the actor say something like, I can't breathe?

[Bob]

So I get. I think you're being generous.

[Travis]

Show it rather than tell it. But yeah, yeah, you said it was

[Bob]

a real, like a super humid environment where it was hard to breathe and.

[Travis]

Yeah, it was. It served the purpose of generating fear. And that's probably as close as you can get for what they did there.

[Bob]

What was interesting to me is the. The size of the craft that you were in, or if it was a craft or a base or. Or whatever, because when you exited, when you got away. And now I may. I may have the story wrong myself. When you walked out of the craft being led by this other being, you were in some giant hangar with other crafts.

[Travis]

Right. Even the craft we were coming out of seemed bigger than the way I remembered it. In. In when I approached it.

[Bob]

Did you think it was the same craft?

[Travis]

It was the same shape.

[Bob]

Okay.

[Travis]

But, you know, it's also the same shape as what you're reporting. I've always been struck by reports. Descriptions of your craft resemble what we saw more than any other report that I've seen.

[Bob]

You know, that's really interesting.

[Travis]

I. I rarely comment on other events or other people's reports, but that's one that I've always found interesting and didn't mind saying before.

[Bob]

What caught my attention. I think one of the times you were describing the craft, it had archways in it. Is that. That correct? You saw some.

[Travis]

Well, the archways, doorways and connecting surfaces between wall and ceiling and that sort of stuff weren't corners. They, you know, okay, were rounded.

[Bob]

The craft itself, was it the. The skin, was it made of archways? Was it like a. Looked like a support system or.

[Travis]

Well, I was. It looked very angular from outside, from a distance, and my. I was preoccupied with the feeling of threat.

[Bob]

Yeah, I'm. I'm sure you didn't have time, really,

[Travis]

to study the architecture?

[Bob]

Yeah, yeah, that's. Yeah. I thought they might have been similar in that way, but that. Did you have any kind of feeling of where that craft might be, what this big thing was? Did it feel like it was.

[Travis]

You know, I couldn't see outside. The. The light that was coming through the surface of the larger enclosure. Now, whether that was a building somewhere, maybe on earth or somewhere else, or part of a larger craft, I don't know. I couldn't see outside, but was very natural colored light, kind of like sunlight.

[Bob]

Oh, okay. It seemed. It seemed natural, not artificial, like I would.

[Travis]

Yeah.

[Bob]

So you.

[Travis]

Not extremely bright, but just like natural light.

[Bob]

But it was large enough to hold, what was it, two or three crafts in there with more room. Yeah.

[Travis]

Again, I was proclamated with where are you taking me? What's going on? You know, I felt like I was suffocating, like I was dying. I was injured, and I was begging, pleading for explanations from this person that I think was probably selected for the purpose of reassuring me and getting my cooperation.

[Bob]

I guess that kind of worked to some degree.

[Travis]

Yeah, it did.

[Bob]

But he never uttered a word, you never heard?

[Travis]

No. He didn't respond. None of them did. Even, you know, when I started to demand more of a response from him.

[Bob]

That's really interesting. The. The time from when. Well, I have a lot of questions. They're kind of jumbled in my mind.

[Travis]

I'm here.

[Bob]

Yeah, yeah, I've. I've heard so many theories about it, but when you guys, you know, all got out of the truck to see the craft, everybody else got back and you stayed there.

[Travis]

No, actually, I got out of the truck and none of the rest of them did.

[Bob]

Oh, okay. See, so you just went out to investigate. Everybody else stayed behind.

[Travis]

And that kind of led to some strange reactions. Steve, he. He was in the truck and he didn't get out. And his girlfriends would say, steve, how come you didn't get out of the truck? And he said, is because I had stronger resistance to mind control. He's claiming that mind control made us get out of the truck, but he resisted. I said, steve, the mind control was to make you stay in the truck. I was the one that was resisting it. Just kidding, you know, but it wasn't mind control. But he was trying to act like he had to come up with an excuse for why he didn't jump out too.

[Bob]

Yeah, he needed to be a tough guy.

[Travis]

I. I know. Well, I wished I'd have done it like him. And stayed in the truck.

[Bob]

Yeah. So you got behind a tree stump or something to that effect. Yeah, kind of hide. And one of the theories I heard was. The craft was about to take off. You, I think you said you heard a hum like it was powering up.

[Travis]

Yeah, it got louder. Yeah, the sound was already there.

[Bob]

And then I think somebody was calling back in the truck and you stood up and then you got hit by. There was a beam, a bolt or something from there and you were. And you went flying. And you go like 20ft high or something like that.

[Travis]

Yeah, they were all screaming, swearing at me to get in the truck, you know, calling me crazy and. Which was foolish. Yeah, I can't argue with that.

[Bob]

Yeah, well, we all do crazy stuff at times. But getting through them, witnessing that, the getting hit by the bolt flying in the sky, they assumed by the time you hit the ground, you were dead. Which is why they.

[Travis]

Yeah, they said, he's dead, he's dead. Let's, let's get out of here. That's what they tell me. I wasn't there.

[Bob]

Yeah, you were. You were offline for so to speak. So the theory that I heard was, you know, from the aliens point of view, the craft was just taking off, you stood up, it just accidentally discharged on you and killed you.

[Travis]

Yeah.

[Bob]

And this, the reason they brought you on was more like an, an ambulance move was just to bring you back, reanimate you. Have you, you've heard that an accident

[Travis]

occurred because I made a foolish move, you know, standing up, closed the distance between me and it and this discharge happened. I, I could feel a strange charge in the air before I even got, you know, oh, that's close. So, but kind of, I didn't know, I didn't know whether it was from all these weird sounds it was making or you know, something, some energy emanating from the craft itself. But when I stood up, that was when my head was the closest to the surface of it. And then the blast of energy. Now I didn't see the energy, you

[Bob]

know, you just stood up and bam, the lights.

[Travis]

The crew describes it in different ways. One guy described it as a foot wide beam, like a laser beam. Another said it looked like a long blue flame. So it was basically different words used to describe the same visual.

[Bob]

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[Bob]

How, how far was your head from the craft, the edge of the craft at that time? Your, your guess before it?

[Travis]

Oh, it was only like, you know, 5ft, less than 10ft.

[Bob]

Okay.

[Travis]

I don't know, I thought it was

[Bob]

like 50 or 60ft away, so.

[Travis]

No, no, a lot closer than that.

[Bob]

So you were right, right alongside the craft. So that's

[Travis]

the, the increase in sound and the motion scared me and when I jumped for cover, cover happened to be closer to it. So I, I got down behind the log there and the screams to get out of there, get back in the truck got louder and I didn't need to be told. I was sort of torn between the fear of being discovered maybe coming out from under cover or. But I was going to run back to the truck and bam. Just felt this electric shock, stunning force go through my body. If you ever been hit playing football or something, you didn't see it coming. That stunning sort of, it's a feeling of being stunned, you know. Oh yeah.

[Bob]

Yeah.

[Travis]

And of course I know what electric shock feels like too.

[Bob]

Oh,

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[Travis]

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[Bob]

So no idea the time. Once you were out, you were out and the next thing you knew you woke up inside. So yeah, one of my wonders is five days is such a long time to be gone. You know, where did the time occur? Did it, did they bring you right back into the craft then?

[Travis]

And I'd like to know, yeah, was I partially revived immediately and then I woke up much later or somewhere in the middle of the five days or was was that waking up on Board the craft almost immediately after I was taken aboard.

[Bob]

Yeah. And what's done over five days, there's no. You have no physical effects? I mean, after all these years or.

[Travis]

Well, there was one artifact brainwave scan.

[Bob]

Oh, really? Didn't know you had that done.

[Travis]

Yeah. World famous brain trauma center. Barrow's Neurological did the scam. It's where Muhammad Ali went when he developed problems with brain. And I still have the chart, the. The printout. Because there was such hysteria and. And just massive attention, they put me in tuberos under an assumed name.

[Bob]

Really?

[Travis]

Yeah, to avoid media attention, which was fortunate because it sort of served as a double blind on the readings that they were going to get on the brainwaves.

[Bob]

That's a good point.

[Travis]

So they found this unusual pattern that the technician described, and I still have the report, but it's an alternating wave moving from front to back, something along that line. It's really curious. I'd love to see a comparison between that and maybe someone who's had other kinds of head trauma or electric shock, maybe somebody who's been hit by lightning. But I had a subsequent brainwave scan that. Where that was no longer there. So it may have been some residual effect of the healing that was provided.

[Bob]

When did you have. I mean, from the time of the incident to the brainwave scan was that

[Travis]

all this stuff was almost immediately, you know, the.

[Bob]

Oh, it wasn't months later, it was.

[Travis]

Right. You know, the doctors that were in on this, you know, worse there the next day, and Dr. Harder who performed it. Regressive hypnosis. I was so lucky that it was him that did it because he did it in a style, a technique to where I was put under as a. An observer to what was happening to me rather than the experiencer.

[Bob]

Huh.

[Travis]

And the reason I'm in hindsight grateful for that is because one of the crew members went through hypnosis where he was directed to relive it. And it was a hugely traumatic for him. I mean, the description of his body movements and I would imagine reaction was. It was probably pretty. Was pretty horrible for him to re. Experience it then it was not necessary to get at the memory of what happened.

[Bob]

Did you find anything out through hypnosis that you. You didn't. I mean, sometimes it reveals some things here and there.

[Travis]

Was there anything, a purpose in the sense that what I recalled, I. I hadn't. I was unable to communicate. I hadn't even told my brother what had happened. I couldn't. I was just so extremely traumatized. So it removed that to where I could actually talk about it without secondary negative effect. You know, that really aided in my recovery a lot. Dr. Harder was amazingly calming in his technique. Got rid of a lot of that fear that I was living with every day.

[Bob]

Perfect timing.

[Waitress/Server]

There's sugar there as well, if you need.

[Travis]

Thank you.

[Bob]

Thanks. Well, that's good to hear that something helps, because that's a monumental trauma. Yeah, but it didn't. It didn't reveal anything that you had forgotten or didn't. Couldn't pull out of your memory. Okay, so everything was pretty much while you were conscious.

[Travis]

Yeah.

[Bob]

You remember everything pretty clearly.

[Travis]

You know, sort of cryptic way. You know, I had to conclude certain things based on events. You know, this must be the. The case. But I do try to distinguish between what I'm directly experiencing, perceiving, and what I figure probably explains what I experienced.

[Bob]

Are you still in contact with any other guys? What you said?

[Travis]

I. I tried to stay in contact with all of them, and rightly, you

[Bob]

said a few of them have died, right?

[Travis]

Yeah, they did. And, you know, I contacted Dwayne Smith and I said, hey, I'd like you to come out and speak with me. And he says, sure. You know, I said, but I'm looking really terrible. I'm having my teeth redone, so let's. After I get my teeth redone, I'll come out and speak with you. And then he passed away right after that.

[Bob]

Oh, sorry to hear that.

[Travis]

Yeah, that was sad. I did tape the conversation, though, and hear this many years later. You know, his memory was fresh and, as you know, in sync with whatever the rest of us.

[Bob]

Were there any hard feelings between you and any of the other?

[Travis]

I think some. You know, it developed over time. At first, Mike would come out and speak with me or and Steve, but then Steve started to get sort of resentful about it. He was asked by one interviewer, was there anything you would change about the experience if you could. And he said, yeah, crank up the voltage like he's wishing it killed me out of state debt or something. I know it wasn't funny to me, but wow. So he quit coming out with us when. When the girls would say, how come you didn't get out of the truck? And then he developed. He tried to come up with alternate explanations. Okay. You know, I mean, at first, you know, every time he got a new girlfriend, he'd take a new polygraph test and prove it all over again. And then he started trying to say, well, it happened just the way we described it, but it was really the government and not aliens made it easier to cope with. I think that was a sort of a.

[Bob]

Well, yeah, it's more of a down to earth explanation, a way that he

[Travis]

doesn't have to be afraid at night kind of a thing. And, and one other thing that developed with Steve, I felt sorry for him was that I was told by the other crewman that he was one of the ones who was crying when, when the lawman came. Well, that was fine with Steve at first, but.

[Bob]

Oh, and he doesn't want that spread around.

[Travis]

And then his cousin, I think his uncle, one relative started teasing him about being a big crybaby. And so he got real angry about, no, I wasn't crying. I never cried. I was strong the whole time. And so that was his big beef. He. He demanded that I have the book reprinted to take that out.

[Bob]

I said, look, holy cow.

[Travis]

Really? I said, Steve, I, I wasn't there. I was just going by what the others told me. Yeah, Mike cried. He's not ashamed of that. He admits to that.

[Bob]

Yeah, that's. That's very cry worthy.

[Travis]

Yeah, I said, I cried. Mike cried. You know, I don't know how many of the others, but he's not a crybaby. He's. He was strong. He just doesn't know it.

[Bob]

I asked that because sometimes, you know, when you, especially once you start getting a lot of attention, obviously you got the most attention of any of them, the guys there, you know, hard feelings develop. I had that in friends and acquaintances that when, you know, documentaries are being made about me.

[Travis]

Yeah.

[Bob]

Hey, you didn't include me. And you know, what the hell? And, well, you really weren't part of it. Yeah, but I knew you back then. And you know, and then the hard feelings started.

[Travis]

I'm sorry, I can't help it, you know.

[Bob]

Yeah.

[Travis]

When Steve said, crank up the voltage and they quit coming out with me, there was jealousy. I can understand being a part of something so incredible. And then media or curious people have questions and they rush right past the witnesses to the main guy. And I, I can't help it.

[Bob]

Yeah.

[Travis]

So a lot of jealousy developed with at least Steve and Mike.

[Bob]

And then. Well, then, you know, in my case, then you start getting the detractors that start looking for those people. Anybody that was close to you that has any negative thoughts and they, you know, hey, can you give us some dirt on them? Or just trying to create a narrative that.

[Travis]

Yeah.

[Bob]

Contradicts you and it's.

[Travis]

Yeah, yeah, it makes them easier to manipulate. And some of that happened, you Know one detractor track Steve down, he. Had changed to his real name, retractor took him out to dinner and tried to talk him into taking a ten thousand dollar bribe to say it was all made up. Well, Steve got a free dinner, but he didn't get $10,000. And that sort of pressure was something that was used on Mike too.

[Bob]

And did Steve tell you that right after it happened about getting.

[Travis]

Yeah. Other researchers also, you know, interviewed him and asked about things like that. But that's to be expected. But you would think, man, you're part of something like this. Mess it up by trying to do something to attack somebody just because you're not the middle of the story. Oh, come on. You know, I wish I wasn't. Look, the movie was about the crew boss. I wasn't there for most of the movie, so my. The actor who played me had a minor role, the crew boss, and that's a good point. And some of the other people on the crew had a lot more worldwide attention than me. I was just the guy it happened to.

[Waitress/Server]

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[Bob]

A lot of times gone by, I mean decades. What year Was that in 1975? It was 75, yeah. I mean, holy cow, that's a long time ago. Is this ever enter your mind anymore or is it just people asking you that kind of of brings it back?

[Travis]

Yeah, well, I'm constantly asked about it, so yeah, as much as I try to forget it, I get reminded a lot.

[Bob]

Are you recognized when you go?

[Travis]

Happens, yeah. Are you wondering if that's why I grew my beard back again?

[Bob]

Yeah.

[Travis]

Time goes by. But you know, over time the debunkers have sort of crumbled away, being self discredited and more positive evidence comes up, you know, scientific investigation at the site and those sorts of things. But I guess debunkers are always a part of it.

[Bob]

They are, I think they're just trying to like anytime there's something of notoriety happening, you always have people that are just will grab onto the coattails so they can get dragged along with it. And if something's getting a lot of attention, they go, oh no, I know this the true story. This is a bunch of nonsense. And

[Travis]

well, as support from my case grew over time, investigators and media started wanting me to comment on other cases. And I had my hands full of my own case. I, and I, and I knew that if I gave into that, if I started commenting, okay, which cases are the good ones, which ones, you know, it would never end. I would be put in the position of passing judgment on people. I said, that's not right. Well, what I, what I objected to so much in my attackers with that they hadn't done the research. If you can't research the case thoroughly, you're not entitled to make opinions. However, you know, in your case, I, I sort of broke that rule. People who expect express negative things. I can't break my rule of supporting other cases. I did say. But the description of the craft that Bob Lazar saw is the closest to what we saw than any other case I've ever heard of. And, and then there were other silly arguments I had to shoot down because they were just so silly. Well, Bob can't be telling the truth because I checked the phone book at Area 51 and he's not in the phone book. And I say, come on, it's secret. They don't put the number in the. What's in the Bob Lazar secret department. You know, that was the silliest attack, one of the silly. But, you know, I met some people say they used to go out and party with you guys in the desert before you ever came out. And they said Bob was telling us that story way back then, before anybody knew anything. So I, I consider that something that really supported your credibility.

[Bob]

Yeah, it's. I don't know, there's a lot.

[Travis]

Well, they knew you to be employed at Area 51.

[Bob]

Yeah, I've had. I was fortunate enough to have George Knapp, that investigative reporter from Las Vegas, so interested in the story. He was able to verify, you know, some things here and there. I mean, he found my phone number in the Los Alamos phone book at the lab and I was able to take him there, show him around and.

[Travis]

But it wasn't under Bob Lazar secret project.

[Bob]

No, no, no,

[Advertiser/Announcer]

no.

[Bob]

But, yeah, I don't know. I guess I don't want to get off on a whole weird tangent but

[Waitress/Server]

it.

[Bob]

A lot goes through your mind when you start reliving all that stuff. I'm guessing you're kind of like, I am. I. I don't really have any interest in, in UFOs or stories and things. I don't, I don't follow them, but I don't. Whether you, whether you like it or not, people tell you stuff so you begin to hear. Oh, I've. I've heard that name. I've heard about that incident, you know, that, that kind of thing. But I was never really interested in the topic. I mean, before that, I never even believed in it. I thought, you know, there were just either experimental government craft or something like that. But, you know, being involved in the project certainly changed my mind.

[Travis]

Well, the reality of it is it's not like some bizarre side story to life. It's just what is, you know, I mean, you know, is as traumatic and disrupting as it was to my life. There's nothing mystical or magical about it. You know, it's not anything to go cultish about. It's just the way it is, you know, and it's. People don't understand why my attitude towards them going from invading monsters, you know, the attitude they had, to something a little more. Well, a big picture, you know. You know, just in my lifetime, the increase in understanding. Sure. From the 70s, the size and age of the universe. What's the name of that new space telescope?

[Bob]

The James Webb Telescope.

[Travis]

The James Webb is out there getting a clear view of things. The story is they pointed it at the emptiest spot in the sky and could see hundreds of galaxies. Not just stars, entire galaxies. You know, the Milky Way is one galaxy, the one we live in. And yet the size and scope of the universe was expanded so much by the James Webb Telescope because it's far bigger. And it's not just everything's moving away from us, which I think was an artifact of the. What they thought they were seeing.

[Bob]

But makes you think that, because that

[Travis]

implied that there was a center to the universe and that, you know, it had edges. And now they're going to have to face the fact that it's infinite.

[Bob]

I think it's much bigger than they're even thinking now. I mean, you know, 50 years ago, you know, if you looked on a map of the known universe, it was about that. James Webb made it bigger, and I think it's even larger than that. Yeah, but like they said, from assuming measurements are accurate, everything's not moving away from a central point. Everything's moving away from everything else. And the only situation where that occurs is if you take a balloon, make a bunch of dots on it, and then blow it up. Everything moves away from everything else. So it's almost like we're on the skin of something. Well, yeah, I mean, that's. At least that's the way it exists in my mind to deal with.

[Travis]

Could be possible that that is an, an artifact of the amount of size and distances involved here. That gives the illusion that that's the case.

[Bob]

It could very well be a big illusion too. What if our measurements, the redshift and you know, what we're using to gauge distances. What if that's not accurate? Then it kind of throws off everything that we're.

[Travis]

Well, maybe you could explain this to me. Maybe I'm not bright enough, but say there's a beam of light going right here between us. They're saying it's 186, 000 miles per second and nothing in the universe can go faster. Now, if you were traveling along that being at say, half the speed of that beam, shown the light forward, what's going to happen? The beam that you're shining is obviously the speed of light plus the half speed that you're on.

[Bob]

Yeah, but it doesn't work that way.

[Travis]

And that's what they're saying. It makes no sense at all. But that's the way it is. Okay, if you say so.

[Bob]

Yeah, yeah,

[Travis]

it's relative. They call it relativity.

[Bob]

Yeah, it's relative speed.

[Travis]

You know, if, if, if you're on a train and you want to calculate the speed of a bullet that you fire, you know, the speed of that bullet relative to the ground outside is the speed of the bullet plus the speed of the train. And you're saying, but with light, that's a special case. Yeah, it's always the same speed, no matter what. Okay. All right.

[Bob]

Have it.

[Travis]

It's like an article of faith. It's not logical.

[Bob]

Well, I mean, it kind of depends how you look at it. But the rules change when you get to maximums and minimums. You know, when you go really small and get into the quantum era, all of a sudden the rules don't apply. And it's a whole new set of physics and it's. And look, we really don't know for sure exactly how anything works. I've, you know, there have been old theories that, you know, the light really isn't even moving, that it's just like a river and everything's already moving at that speed. And I mean, it's it's difficult to completely prove what we think. There's a lot of theories and there are a few hard proofs to, to back them up. So to a degree, there's faith this is involved.

[Travis]

Oh, there's, you know, the edges of physics get into some really.

[Waitress/Server]

Can I get you guys another refill?

[Travis]

Magical thinking.

[Bob]

One more?

[Travis]

Yeah.

[Waitress/Server]

Would you like some water as well?

[Bob]

Sure, yeah, yeah.

[Waitress/Server]

And I noticed. Did you guys leave your briefcase down there under the table?

[Travis]

Oh, Well, you know, you have to adjust and say, okay, there's really no such thing as a photon. Okay, have it your way.

[Bob]

I take it that's not yours.

[Travis]

Well, there it either is or it isn't. But see, that's what happens when you get into exotic physics. It's magical thinking.

[Bob]

Right.

[Travis]

And the, the, the isms, the platitudes are a product of allowing people to get comfortable with things that otherwise don't add up.

[Bob]

Do you trust modern physics? Well, you think there's a lot of holes in it.

[Travis]

The conclusions are hard and fast. The. If they could just add as if. It's as if this beam of light is this. And this speed is being registered in this way. But you can explain it however you want, but.

[Waitress/Server]

Here's your water, sir.

[Bob]

Thank you.

[Travis]

Things that are just contrary to common sense and basic logic.

[Bob]

Yeah, it's hard to digest.

[Travis]

That don't carry a lot of weight with me. I know that, you know, thousands of hardcore physicists would disagree with me. No, no, that's the way it is. Get on that beam of light, go three, four, the speed of it, shine that beam of light. And the beam of light that you're shining isn't going. The speed plus the speed is you. Okay.

[Bob]

Yeah. Well, the bottom line, no one has actually done it before, so there's no direct proof that that happens. So this briefcase that someone left here, open the files.

[Travis]

Spooky.

[Bob]

I'm.

[Travis]

I'm perfectly aware that all of these very knowledgeable and well educated people will say, no, you got it wrong. You know, no matter where you are on that speed of light, on that beam of light, it's still going the same speed. Have it your way. Yeah, everything's relative. Except light. That's what they're telling me. Wow, There's these.

[Bob]

That's an old jet powered car I made a long time I was back in. Oh, it's in Los Alamos. Yeah, Like a lot of stuff on me.

[Travis]

What kind of gas mileage you get? You get jokes like that. Yeah, yeah.

[Bob]

This is my W2 from Department of Naval Intelligence. That's another thing that really, although I don't follow UFO lore too much, but more and more you hear about sightings, stuff that are either over the ocean, over water, underwater, coming out of the water.

[Travis]

Yeah.

[Bob]

And you know, I was paid and then apparently the Navy was the ones, you know, running the show. So I just, I, I wonder if they were the first ones to run into the craft and they were just left in control of it because if anything, you thought it would be the Air Force.

[Travis]

Wow, there's proof. I didn't need proof. I know you really worked there. And there's.

[Bob]

Oh, these are the archways I was talking about. And that, you know.

[Travis]

Okay, yeah, I may have had that. I just. It was studying it.

[Bob]

Did it, did the craft glow or like.

[Travis]

Yeah, it was glowy.

[Bob]

What do you remember the color?

[Travis]

It was a kind of a soft, towards a yellow end of the spectrum.

[Bob]

Okay. It seemed to hear that a lot.

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[Travis]

Did you know Sam's Club isn't a store? It's actually a club with cool finds and like whole community it's a club.

[Waitress/Server]

Of course, Jason.

[Travis]

It's in the name.

[Waitress/Server]

Sam's Club.

[Travis]

Oh yeah. Come join us. Sam's Club.

[Bob]

Oh, that's a drawing I made about the interesting components. That's a sketch from a autopsy report. I had a friend named John Lear. That he was a good guy, but used to have some really weird beliefs. He believed people lived in the sun and all kinds of crazy things. And I drew that picture for him. And so that's.

[Travis]

Well, he had a very famous father.

[Bob]

Yeah. A brilliant, brilliant guy. And, I mean, what. He invented the autopilot, the eight track tape. A bunch of stuff later, Yeah.

[Travis]

I met John Learner.

[Bob]

He did come with us a couple times out to visit this. This is what made me believe at least part of the Billy Meyer story. Because that looks so much like the craft.

[Travis]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Bob]

Does it kind of look familiar to you? I mean, yeah, it looks so much like it.

[Travis]

But, you know, I think my case and even your case contributed to the idea that UFOs are all flying discs. But no, I mean, some of them are circular.

[Bob]

Yeah.

[Travis]

Some of them are triangular.

[Bob]

Yeah. These days I. I wonder if just time has gone on and just like car models, things have changed or maybe the technology has changed, or maybe maybe you're seeing visitors from somewhere else now that have their own.

[Travis]

Yeah, Well, I know people that I believe that saw them that were. They call it tic tac shape, but, you know, it's a sort of a capsule, sort of a like vitamin pill or something. You know, like a sphere would be if you stretched it out. They call that tic tac. But I'm sure the candy manufacturer don't appreciate the analogy.

[Bob]

Yeah, they. They should ride the wave and make a UFO packaging or something. There.

[Travis]

Anything away from you make this hot.

[Waitress/Server]

Okay, sure. And yeah, there's a gentleman over there that said there was two folders in the briefcase.

[Bob]

We have just found number two.

[Travis]

Wow.

[Bob]

Oh, this looks like you.

[Travis]

And there's Travis's safe. Down to earth judgment.

[Bob]

This is all you.

[Travis]

Yeah.

[Bob]

Was that your car?

[Travis]

Yeah.

[Bob]

Nice car. Yeah.

[Travis]

It would go over 150 in the quarter mile.

[Bob]

It was really.

[Travis]

Yeah, it was incredible.

[Bob]

Okay, so that wasn't stock. You did some.

[Travis]

No, I had over 500 horsepower from the factory. But it had enhancements on it beyond that.

[Bob]

Yeah. It looked like you were somewhat of a daredevil dirt bike. You're into fighting too, huh?

[Travis]

Yeah, my first three bouts, I won by knockout in the first round.

[Bob]

No kidding.

[Travis]

Yeah. And, you know, it was just a minor excursion into boxing. I was mostly into the Asian martial arts, various styles at the time.

[Bob]

Now I can really see you come out fighting when you're on that table and jumping off. Oh, so this is, you know, the hangar or other ship.

[Travis]

Yeah. And now I'm wondering, was this Am I assuming the shape? Because I could only see it from this side. If there was. If it was more elongated, I wouldn't know because I, you know, wasn't studying it. I just looked over quickly as we left this large enclosure and this very smooth chrome thing reflecting everything around it.

[Bob]

So. Chrome.

[Travis]

So it was really polished metal.

[Bob]

Yeah. Okay. I didn't realize that was the configuration. So you came out of the. The craft here.

[Travis]

It seemed bigger at this point, so it could have been a bigger craft, I don't know.

[Bob]

And then went into yet another

[Advertiser/Announcer]

room

[Travis]

where they rendered me unconscious.

[Bob]

How big? Well, yeah, you wouldn't know. I'm just wondering how big of a diameter you thought that was. But it would be hard to say with.

[Travis]

Yeah,

[Bob]

this I found fascinating. The chair. But did you ever sit in the chair or just. Again, there's confusion.

[Travis]

I squeezed into it. Yeah.

[Bob]

Did you? Okay. Yeah. Some of the films they have, you just touch it and. And you saw the star pattern pop up. Was there a screen in front of you or did you see it all around you?

[Travis]

It was all around me, you know. Thank you.

[Bob]

So it wasn't something that was projected. It just appeared all around.

[Travis]

Yeah. But it was only visible while I was in the chair or next to it. If I was farther away from it in any way, it was just dark.

[Bob]

Oh, all right. That's.

[Travis]

The stars just appeared or apparently they were just visible to the. Whoever was in the chair.

[Bob]

That's interesting.

[Travis]

Movement moved the star pattern, but not.

[Bob]

Was there a joystick or. Or something?

[Travis]

Yeah. Was it.

[Bob]

Okay.

[Travis]

But not relative to each other. The whole thing moved, you know, which was kind of affecting my balance for a second, you know, because everything around me, every reference point of where I was standing was moving.

[Bob]

Did you feel. Did you feel that was like in real time looking outside, or were you. Did you feel like this is more of a map room?

[Travis]

No, I was in a panic. I wanted out and I was just looking for button to open a door and get me out of there.

[Bob]

Yeah, I'm. I'm sure that's the case. Yeah.

[Travis]

Yeah. So here's the arch is. You were talking about. See, from my point of view, I was looking more to the bottom side, so the top size surface could have been.

[Bob]

But it looked like that.

[Travis]

Yeah. And that was giving off a light. It wasn't burning me. It didn't seem hot in that sense.

[Bob]

Did the guys in the truck ever relate to you where it looked like the beam came from? Was it just the side of the ship or something?

[Travis]

Well, they Were, you know, pretty much saying that.

[Bob]

Okay.

[Travis]

That was also the closest point of surface next to me. So if it was some kind of accumulated energy discharging, it would just be because I was close to it now. The artist put a tree there.

[Bob]

Yeah.

[Travis]

It would have been the point of discharge. The grounding effect would have gone through it. I was the closest thing.

[Bob]

So before you got knocked out, you're crouching behind there and you hear the thing powering up. While it's powering up, did you perceive or see anything? Was there any kind of distortion outside or any. Any light or glow around the ground or anything that would.

[Travis]

No, just the vibration you could feel as much as, say, feel in your body. The high, the high, high frequency, the. That seemed to change with the position of your head. And the really low rumble that you just felt in your bones more than through your ears.

[Bob]

I can imagine that must have been just frightening of something.

[Travis]

I. I was, Whoa, what did I do? What did I do? You know, I'm. I'm this close. I was thinking it was going to shoot off before I even got close. You know, that was normal thing. You encounter wildlife and you jump out and it's going to be running away from you.

[Bob]

Right. Huh. Jumpsuits every. They're always wearing jumpsuits.

[Travis]

Yeah.

[Bob]

So did they.

[Travis]

Well, except in scary invading monsters movies. They're always naked.

[Bob]

Yeah.

[Travis]

Because then you get to show more.

[Bob]

You have to show the scales and

[Travis]

the grouly monster effect. Yeah.

[Bob]

Right. So the eyes, a lot of times in other witnesses and report solid black eyes. Yeah, but these were. These were.

[Travis]

Yeah, they had pupils. And I think it had to do with the size of their eyes made to gather light, Extremely dim light in a low light environment. But in this ambient light here would be way too bright for them. An eye that size. So I think it was some kind of a contact lens sort of effect that may have been biologically developed to protect the eye or maybe something they. In maybe like a insert or something.

[Bob]

Sunglasses on a contact lens. Yeah, that kind of thing. Was it brightly lit in this room?

[Travis]

Well, it. It hurt my eyes to look at it, but it was pretty dim.

[Bob]

Okay. But yeah, you're looking straight back. You're looking straight at the light, straight up at it. Is that about this the right height?

[Travis]

Yeah, I think they were shorter than that, but, you know, okay, you got to judge the perspective of who's standing where. It was shorter than 4ft, but.

[Bob]

But no, no noise. Never used their mouths or anything. And it didn't express emotions. Just Just were, you know, afraid of you and.

[Travis]

Well, I have a theory about that. You know, that if they truly are telepathic, then facial expression is obsolete. They can say everything to each other without moving the muscles in their face at all.

[Bob]

Do you felt that they felt your intentions?

[Travis]

I don't know.

[Bob]

You were combative and they, if they,

[Travis]

if they felt anything, they felt sheer terror and panic and, and a threat that in response.

[Bob]

But they get out, you grab the rod or whatever that was, they put their hands up and they just calmly walk out and turn right and go down. They didn't run like they were afraid.

[Travis]

They were. They scurried pretty quickly.

[Bob]

Oh, they did okay again. Some of the other stuff I saw had them, you know, calmly walking out. I'm surprised they even turned their back on you with you.

[Travis]

No, they just, you know, made a run for it. And of course the physiques here, male and female, are quite over emphasized.

[Bob]

That's really interesting artist impression. Yeah, but these were clearly human compared to anyone else on the ground.

[Travis]

You know, interesting. You got a hair length differential, longer for the female. That's. Yeah, that's very Earth kind of Earth custom. Yeah, but if they were trying to simulate something I would accept as human, that would be the way they do it.

[Bob]

It's interesting that they'd have two species working together. That's.

[Travis]

Well, I don't know if they're working together. I don't know. They knew at that point my hysteria prevented telepathic control or communication. And I'm not going to cooperate with them and I'm going to die if they don't get me somewhere else for further treatment. So they needed something I would trust. Now whether this was some kind of creation, like a mechanical device or something in a species that looks very human, I don't know. They sure looked like people to me. When you grabbed my arm, it felt like a person would. Who would grab. Grab you.

[Bob]

And I think somebody said you described these guys as really strong.

[Travis]

Yeah.

[Bob]

They held on to you.

[Travis]

Yeah, well, I was in a weakened condition, but once they got me down on the table, you know, I started to fight them. And I was outnumbered too.

[Bob]

And whatever this device was, as soon as they put that on you, you were. Yeah, they were out.

[Travis]

Probably some sort of anesthetic, you know. No, it's no hose connected to it, but maybe it was generated from the part that was being held. Now I was describing these craft. I just, you know, could glance over and see them. Whether there was they were actually disc shaped or, or more Elongated. I don't know. Because I was very concerned with where you taking me.

[Bob]

Yeah, I can't imagine the feeling of walking out there and now you're in this completely strange place. There's other.

[Travis]

And he's not answering any questions yet. But I was controlling that because the helmet may have been preventing him from hearing me or speaking.

[Bob]

So these guys didn't have helmets? No, just. This is the only guy that had.

[Travis]

Yeah, so. So, you know, when they got me out of here into the room where these people were, I was renewing my efforts to get an answer. No helmet as an excuse. I need to know what are you doing to me? What. What is this? What were those creatures and all those kind of things just babbling and getting no response. Just forced me down and put that over my face. Now, probably my guess is to continue whatever medical treatments might have been underway when I regain consciousness.

[Bob]

How did you feel at this point? Did you feel like you were still in pain and damaged from the shock?

[Travis]

The air seemed cooler and easier to breathe out there and I was surprised that the surface was so easy to. It wasn't slippery. As steep as it was, I could walk down it in a weakened condition.

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[Travis]

I'm out.

[Bob]

Let's go.

[Travis]

The colonels cooked up a new $10 bucket of the day just for you. Monday, 24 nuggets for ten dollars.

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[Travis]

Wednesday, ten wings for ten dollars. Thursday, eight tenders for ten dollars. Friday, 24 nuggets for. Oh, you guessed it, didn't you? Ten dollars. The ten dollar bucket of the day deal every weekday only at kfc. It's finger licking goo.

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[Travis]

available on third party ordering platforms.

[Advertiser/Announcer]

Tax extra.

[Travis]

Yeah,

[Bob]

Take a close up of one of the eyes. Oh, so here. Yeah, here's that room we were talking about. Okay, so that's where the guy with the helmet came on.

[Travis]

And actually the viewpoint from right here was probably black. You could only see stars if you're standing over here. But I don't know why I couldn't be two places at once. What do we got here?

[Bob]

This is two related cases. Bill Herman, 1978. Jesse Rosenberg, 1954. Haven't heard of any of that.

[Travis]

But then you and I are not students of the, the genre.

[Bob]

No, no. But that does look like. Yeah, there are guys there. Oh. And as do these guys.

[Travis]

Oh, yeah. So that's. These are cases reporting.

[Bob]

Yeah. Similar things to you.

[Travis]

And this was after mine. And this one was after, before mine.

[Bob]

I wonder. This looks kind of like I'm more a 1950s. Oh, no, I got it wrong. This is 78. So this is, this is the one that's after yours. And this is from the 50s.

[Travis]

Interesting case, huh? Like I said, I haven't studied any other cases. No.

[Bob]

Hairstyles are interesting. What else we have in here? Not sure what that is. I'll let you push the button.

[Travis]

Is it ticking? No, I'm kidding.

[Bob]

Facsimile of my badge there.

[Travis]

Wow. Yeah.

[Bob]

No other surprises in there? Area 52 card. Did you push the button?

[Travis]

No. Do you want me to?

[Bob]

Well, we might,

[Travis]

I'll put it closer to you. Yeah.

[Bob]

Okay. Not sure what that did, but hopefully nothing serious.

[Travis]

Well, interesting dossier there.

[Bob]

You know, I, I, there's so many UFO stories and I've heard other people say that before. There's so many crashes and, you know, you hear the detractors say, you know, a very valid point. They travel these great distances and they come here and just crash, you know, left and right. And how can there be so many crashes with, you know, advanced technology? And

[Travis]

that's a good question. Yeah. It seems unfortunate that they aren't better drivers than that.

[Bob]

Yeah, if they are, I mean, there's, there's just so, so many theories, so many thoughts, and so much incorrect information.

[Travis]

Yeah.

[Bob]

I had people recently said they, they wanted to make a film or documentary on me and they said, we're going to send you the script. I said, you have the script? And, you know, they sent it to me and I looked through it. I said, that has nothing to do at all with what happened to me. I said, well, we got it all off the Internet. Yeah, well, that doesn't mean it's some

[Travis]

very creative people on the Internet.

[Bob]

Yeah, it's unfortunately, yeah, it's an incredible amount of incorrect information. But some of the theories kicked around are, are fascinating. You know, some that say that they're not even from space or other planets. They're just, they're us from the future coming back to check on ourselves.

[Travis]

I've heard that theory and I, I'm not going to argue about it because I'm just sticking to what I experienced.

[Bob]

Right.

[Travis]

Yeah, you tell me.

[Bob]

Yeah, that's the standing. I take It's. You hear plenty of things. You might be told things even from officials. But you just have to stick with what you know, you felt, you touched, you saw and draw the line there. Because everything else is guesswork.

[Travis]

Yeah. Or somebody's theory or whatever. It may or may not be true, but I didn't personally experience it. So I try to just stick to my story and not talk or study the phenomena. For one thing, you and I both know there's a mixture of things that are going on. Some of them are hardcore nuts and bolts, UFOs like you and I. And also other things that are. US government attempts to create something.

[Bob]

Right.

[Travis]

That will pass. And there's also misidentified objects. There's complete hallucinations and made up fabrications. Sometimes people, you know, just see a light in the distant sky and their enthusiasm and emotions embellish I guess is the word. So there's mistaken identification too. I think the hardcore events are actually a small percentage.

[Bob]

I think a very small percentage because the others so outweigh it and it muddies the water so much.

[Travis]

Maybe intentionally. I wondered about that. You suppose all these stories are floating around out there just for camouflage?

[Bob]

Oh, I'm sure some are. There's no, there's no doubt in my mind that some are intentionally there to confuse things and, and, or just stories put out about witnesses or.

[Travis]

I don't know. Do you have a feeling about the intention of the government's position relative to the public? You know, we know that it way back used to be total denial. It's all nonsense. Everything's made up or crazy stuff and there's no, no such thing. And the longer they stuck with that, the more the credibility was being damaged on their part rather than on the witnesses.

[Bob]

Right.

[Travis]

So they finally had to say, okay, let's concede something in order to re establish our credibility. So late on a Friday they say, here's gun camera footage from this jet. This is something that has powers beyond anything we have. We don't know what it is. It's not ours. And you know, like I say, late on a Friday, on Tuesday, news goes dead. Until Monday, Monday came around and no reaction. What? Wait a minute, we just made this earth shattering admission. So the, the government actually issued that admission, quote unquote, twice, lay it on a Friday gun camera footage. Look, there's something that has maneuverability beyond anything we have. It's not ours.

[Bob]

We don't think it's other countries either.

[Travis]

And that was. They left it open though. I'm just saying what they said, they, they just said this is something that we don't have. So of course that would immediately raise the fear that what it is, what if it is something possessed by other countries? I personally don't believe that's the case, but I don't know. So it could be anything.

[Bob]

I think they have a long way to go to get credibility back. They've made the mistake of lying for way, way too long. Yeah, and I think that started a long time ago. And you know, as I've said, you could and others have said too. It's, you know, if you want to keep the technology secret, we all understand that's powerful technology, but you don't have to keep the story secret. Okay, we, hey, we found something from somewhere else.

[Travis]

It considers themselves responsible and if there's a high tech thing that they can't thwart, you know, that's their role. We're, we're here to defend you against whatever might be there. You would think it would create alarm. I don't, I don't think it is a threat. But on the other hand, the military's justification for even looking at this is, is it a threat so they can study it and be involved in and all that. If they, if they said it wasn't, then, then why are they even messing with it? Well, right, so maybe that is allowed to languish the idea that it's a threat, but I don't think it's a threat. You know, these reports have been around

[Bob]

for decades, even longer than that.

[Travis]

I think a technology that advanced, if they wanted to remove us and become the dominant species on this planet, we'd never know what hit us. It could do it overnight.

[Bob]

I agree with you 100% there.

[Travis]

So I don't, I don't see a threat to worry about. But also, I don't think of any sinister intention on the part of the government. With the position they've taken, they're forced to do what they're doing.

[Bob]

Well, it's their job.

[Travis]

Well, so many people say it's our government, we can tell them, throw open the books and tell everybody what's going on. Well, we have a couple of other superpowers on the planet that might love to know what we've harvested and is it something that they can overcome or not? And so as long as we keep our stuff secret, they don't dare make a move. Could be some kind of a detente, sort of balance of power thing that we need to maintain that secrecy just for national security. And you couldn't say, well, I'll show you mine if you show me yours.

[Bob]

Yeah.

[Travis]

Because are they really giving you the full story or are they just doing. Giving you some token pieces of information to get at what you're holding?

[Bob]

You know, that's what they would do.

[Travis]

Yeah, everybody's. So it can't be done. And so it's. It's probably a pretty good safety chain on the whole mess to have the books slammed tight. A lot of people don't understand me on that.

[Bob]

What?

[Travis]

You know, are you taking the government side? Well, in this case, I think their secrecy is justified and necessary.

[Bob]

Yeah, I still, I agree with that. But I think they could still just loosen their belts a little bit.

[Travis]

Well, in admitting that there's something which they've done, and the public says, well, that's not enough. They're saying, yeah, so what else is new and big deal? You know, we want more like free energy. Can't do that. Well, you know, it would destroy the monetary systems of the planet to have free energy. Foreign. What do you think would happen overnight if energy could be free? Just that.

[Bob]

Well, we'd have a big problem.

[Travis]

Well, especially if we'd have a big problem.

[Bob]

Any big leap in technology would really collapse our economy.

[Travis]

Yeah.

[Bob]

Even if we could, even if they

[Travis]

didn't weaponize it, which they would immediately, how can we use this to defeat our enemies?

[Bob]

Yeah, that's going to be. Step one, is turn it into a weapon. But any advanced technology, even if we could teleport from place to place or jump like these guys do, great distances where you don't need cars, suddenly if you don't need cars, planes, or the post office or anything, you can get anywhere you want to immediately. Nobody has a job. Everything's a support service for those or part of those. Yeah, and same thing with energy, the whole world economy. Yeah. So I don't know what you do with really advanced technology. It's too big. I mean, technology could be too good to release.

[Travis]

Yeah, I think the situation. We're stuck with it. People need to be far more understanding than they are to. To be granted much more than what they're getting. You know, we fancy ourselves as civilized people. You know, we leave the building here, we drive down the streets and everything's fine. But the truth is, from the aliens point of view, the natives are getting restless. We're a bunch of savages, constantly at each other's throat, killing each other at phenomenal rates. What, how many thousand this week? Come on. You know, they can even talk about that on tv. And you know, that's not incredibly alarming.

[Bob]

Not anymore. No. Now it's just something.

[Travis]

Well, the aliens see it all and not the polished, optimized side. So aside from being shot out, just seeing us behaving, how we behave towards each other, I can understand perfectly why they would not come down and share advanced technology with us.

[Bob]

That would be a foolish thing to do. That's like giving a three year old a loaded gun.

[Travis]

Yeah, exactly.

[Bob]

I, I would, I make the same move they did but it, of course it makes you wonder what they're doing here. Is it just a, is it a Disneyland thing or you should stop by Earth and check out the natives there or is there really something?

[Travis]

The Europeans started exploring the world. They encountered cultures that were, you know, basically in the Stone age. And the contact was very destructive. They weren't ready for all that came with it. Especially not things like modern firearms and whatnot.

[Bob]

Yeah, advanced technology, contact is always destructive. It's never worked out well in history.

[Travis]

But does that mean that we're just left to stew in our own juices? I think the aliens have a strategy. This is just my own theory. They observe our behavior and I've made the advance the theory that UFO sightings are not accidental where they are just ah, humans spotted us again. We're gonna have to be more careful.

[Bob]

You think they're intentional?

[Travis]

I think they're intentional. You know, I think they do everything they're doing here and remain undetected. But what's allowed to be seen is to is a reminder, you know, a hint.

[Bob]

They're just a tease.

[Travis]

Yeah, something. Things could be a lot better if we would just get our act together.

[Bob]

That'd be great if that was, that was accurate.

[Travis]

Well, just the awareness that there's a better way, a different way, a more advanced way could maybe inspire some leaders to want to pull us in that direction. Make us compatible with more advanced societies.

[Bob]

But I think that's a bunch of

[Travis]

savages at this point.

[Bob]

Yeah. That it's going to be a different set of leaders, I think. I don't think anyone's thinking along those lines at the moment anyway. You're not much of a coffee drinker.

[Travis]

No, I just drink a hot beverage to keep my vocal cords from getting hoarse.

[Bob]

They ever drink coffee? I mean when you were younger, Back

[Travis]

when I was working at the paper mill. Went graveyard shift with every third shift. Go to work at midnight. Coffee, you gotta stay awake somehow. So that was the first time I really drank coffee. My mother was a coffee drinker, but I Never drank it till I started doing shift work that was just to survive. Graveyard. The midnight shift.

[Bob]

Yeah, I can usually have two cups on the third one.

[Travis]

I start getting shaky, I'll definitely do it.

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[Travis]

I, I try to distinguish between what happened, what I can report factually, accurately, and just what's my own theory. You know, and I'm sure you don't agree with all of my theories, but nobody does. And that's fine and dandy, you know, no problem.

[Bob]

Well, they're, they're your theories. You know, I'm the same way. I draw a hard line between what I know, what I experienced and what I believe might be true, and what I've heard from others. I don't let them ever cross over. It's, it's really. There's just so much incorrect information to dig through. It would be great to know what's accurate and what's not. Have there been that many crashes? Are all those abduction stories real or, or not? Certainly some are. The Betty and Barney Hill story you've probably heard. Yeah, that and you know, I, I firmly believe that occurred. I firmly believe, you know, what happened to you occurred. And there are so many other instances. It would be great to know.

[Travis]

Well, I had an instance that happened when I was probably first grade or, you know, when I was very, very young, that I was awakened in the middle of the night by a small being, large eyes, big white head, really wearing a black jumpsuit. But I didn't call it an alien. It was just a little man.

[Bob]

This is when you're like one year old. Wow. I, I never heard this.

[Travis]

My sister, who's still alive, remembers me insisting that this happened. And she. But she says, no, it was a dream. It was a dream. And so. All right, believe what you want. I. You know, I've. I've been alive for 72 years and I've never believed a dream was real that really happened. I didn't call it an alien. It was just had little man with big bald head and bald eyes. I didn't call them aliens in those days. Aliens were my favorite Martian.

[Bob]

Oh, right.

[Travis]

Two little antennas that would sprite from a human's head.

[Bob]

What do you remember from. From that? Just some.

[Travis]

I was. It was very hot and we had huge coolers mounted on the roof of the house, blowing down through the hallway and out. And that was one way to stay cool. So we. Instead of sleeping in our bedrooms, we'd bring bed rolls and lay in the hallway. So I was awakened by something lifting my bedroll from the bottom in. My legs were lifted into the air and I woke up. What is this? I mean, that's not a way a dream happens, you know, it's not a dream. You know, this was happening. And I saw the little man that was lifting the bedroom and I called out, and he dropped it and turned to run away, and I jumped up and ran after him and I was unable to catch up with him. He disappeared in the house. We had a huge house, 21 rooms.

[Bob]

Wow.

[Travis]

Yeah. It used to be the mayor of Phoenix's residence, but my mom was able to buy it in its later years and convert the upstairs rooms into rooms that she rented out.

[Bob]

Oh, okay.

[Travis]

To pay the bills. And she had an answering service downstairs to pay the bills.

[Bob]

So you lost him in the. There was running amounts.

[Travis]

There was upstairs and an attic and a. Bottom stairs and a basement and spaces under the house that us kids explored and found. There were secret passages all over that house.

[Bob]

Sounds like a fun place for a kid.

[Travis]

Yeah, it was. You know, we. We found all kinds of things there, but the little man disappeared and I spent days trying to find out how he got away.

[Bob]

That doesn't sound like a dream to me either.

[Travis]

Yeah, and my. It wasn't terribly frightening. I didn't call it, oh, an alien was trying to get me or anything. It was just this little man woke me up, you know, and so. But my. My sister doesn't believe me. She thinks I had a vivid dream. She. She believes that I believe it. But anyway, it was wearing the black jumpsuit that Betty Hill described. So that's. I've never really touted that story very much because it was just me with no witnesses.

[Bob]

Right.

[Travis]

And so take it or leave it, I believe it, but I don't expect anybody to believe anything that of this nature without some sort of evidence, you know. Yeah, that is, other witnesses, physical evidence,

[Bob]

that kind of stuff that is interesting and that most of the stories I've heard, the limited stories I've heard of people, any interaction with aliens, whether it's abductions, whatever, it seems to be more than once, they seem to come at an early time in their life and then later on. So, I mean, that's, that's.

[Travis]

You've probably heard me talk about my anthill theory. You know, if you're walking by an anthill, you don'. Say, hey, I think I'll stop and have a conversation with that ant right there.

[Bob]

Right.

[Travis]

That was how I, I viewed it before about people saying that aliens came and contacted them. But now I, I think that if you saw one when you were younger and one when you were older, they know it's you. That there's a connection between.

[Bob]

Yeah, there's a reason. There is a reason.

[Travis]

There's a basis for that. They have huge heads and a lot of intelligence. And I, I draw the analogy to the Utah Data Center. That's a government computer complex covering acres in Utah that requires millions of gallons of water just to keep it cool, and supposedly, reportedly is recording every electronic transmission on the face of the earth. Now, mere humans can keep track of that much information. Super advanced species can probably do it in their head. But the idea that there's a connection between these events is, I think, quite plausible.

[Bob]

I do too.

[Travis]

And not accidental, intentional, for some reason.

[Bob]

No, I think that once they find a person or interested in a person, I think they just want to keep tabs on them and for some reason, in some way.

[Travis]

But I definitely have not tried to promote the idea that, see, that means I'm something special. They're interested in me because I have qualities they like or something. Who knows what their reason might be? But that's definitely not it. I've never sought any notoriety. I never sought out an interview or any sort of public appearance. They always invite me. I don't ever seek them. So. And other than that, I just keep to myself.

[Bob]

So, yeah, you sound like me.

[Travis]

Even, even the book I wrote. I don't even publish that I wrote a book or advertise it anywhere. People find out it's there and available and they seek me out and order them. But other than that, my wife thinks I'm crazy. Come on, get out there. Advertise it. You'd sell a million of them.

[Bob]

But it's not you.

[Travis]

No, not me. But it's. It's steadily keeps me busy for the last 50 years or 40 some years.

[Bob]

Well, I'm glad we had time to sit down and talk.

[Travis]

Yeah, keep the waitress busy keeping this here.

[Waitress/Server]

I just wanted to let you know that it's on the house for you this afternoon.

[Travis]

Oh, well, thank you. That's great.

[Waitress/Server]

We thank you for joining the Flying Seler.

[Travis]

Well, thank you. Have a great afternoon.

[Bob]

You too.

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